“WE’VE LOST CHRISTIANITY” – by Andrew Strom

Despite the thousands in our megachurches today, soaking up the warm entertainment offered to them every week, I want to put it to you that we have lost Christianity. Despite the Christian books now found in every Walmart, and the “crossover” of Christian artists into the mainstream, and our Christian mega-stores and CD’s and DVD’s and Study-Bibles, I want to put it to you that we have lost Christianity.

Despite our lavish Cathedrals in the suburbs (‘Charismatic or not)
with their pastel hues and comfortable pews, their projector screens
and $30,000 sound systems, I want to put it to you that we have
utterly lost Christianity.

We left it behind somewhere when we shifted our churches from
the inner city into the “comfortable” suburbs. We left it behind when
we stopped welcoming the bums off the street into our meetings
and started welcoming only the “respectable” people. We left it
behind when we stopped preaching “take up your cross” and
turned the gospel into a success formula – ‘Seven Steps to your
Best Life Now.’

Somewhere in our comfortable suburban streetscape with its
manicured lawns we lost the real thing. Somehow in our concern
for “property values” and a better ‘dental plan’ we left it behind.
But that is not the worst part of it. The worst part is that we don’t
know how to get it back again. Or perhaps we don’t really WANT
to get it back again. The cost simply doesn’t bear thinking about,
does it? And so, as we drive around in our nice shiny cars with
our groovy plastic toys, and attend “church” as we know it twice
a week for 2 hours;- As we live a life that is about as unlike
Jesus as you can get, a life of comfort and coddling undreamt
of by billions around the world;- a lifestyle in the top 10% of the
earth today (-in debt up to our eyeballs all the while) – the fact
is that we don’t really CARE that we have lost original Christianity,
do we? We are too busy, man. Don’t bother us with that kind of talk.

It will all be OK, the preacher tells us. We will all make it to heaven
in the end. We are all “decent” people here. We have “prayed the
little prayer”. We have ‘given our heart to the Lord’.

But what is this? What is that thundering voice I hear? “DEPART
FROM ME.” ‘But LORD… But LORD….’

“I said – ‘DEPART FROM ME’. Don’t call me Lord. You never truly
lived like I was your Lord and you know it. For I was hungry and
you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I
was a stranger and you did not take me in; naked, and you did
not clothe me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me….”

What is the essence of true Christianity that we have lost, my
friends? It is simply described by James as follows- “Pure religion
and undefiled is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their
affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (Ja 1:27).

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

Posted in Articles by Andrew on May 29th, 2013 at 11:04 am.

214 comments

214 Replies

  1. We so desperately need to break the grip of “churchianity”…!

  2. There can be no doubt whatsoever that most, if not all of the troubles in the Church today are due to a departure from the Word of God as the absolute sole authority in all matters of true Christian Faith and Practice.

    The church of today has lost her spiritual anchor.
    From so many pulpits, she has been converted into a “skewed” theological / seminary classroom, a “worldly” think-tank, where the message is all too often centered around EVERYTHING but Christ.

    Her confusion and lack of authority is evidenced by, and can be seen through the introduction and acceptance of various “alternative and pluralistic” heresies which attempt to ignore a pattern of lifestyle and moral poverty which typified the fallen state of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the foolishness which often typified a fallen Israel.

    She has forgotten that she was created by God to be a house of prayer, preaching, confession, repentance, conversion, forgiveness, reconciliation and above all else, holiness and sanctification…a house of refuge and safety for those who seek an audience with the Most High.

    Gone is the message of redemption, faith, salvation, damnation, sin and hell…replaced with the “feel good” theology of empathy, non judgmental language, acceptance, name it-claim it schemes, prosperity and health…!

  3. So true Andrew. I remember back when the churches starting moving out of the inner cities and built in the suburbs. In fact I asked my Dad at the time why this was happening. I was only a child at the time. He replied that they didn’t feel safe there. As an adult I remembered that. Jesus said clearly that we were to give the gospel to the poor. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why they would rather have churches where the money is. A good bible believing powerful church will hinder lawlessness. The Holy Spirit will hinder lawlessness as does a good government. When that which hinders lawlessness is taken away, evil prevails. Removing churches from the inner cities was a huge mistake.

  4. Untill christians stop following men and start following Jesus,and stop being led by strange doctrines but are led by the spirit, christianity will just be another religion. I had some JW’s come to my house one day, where suprised I talked to them, they told me no one listens, and I told them that is because you have nothing to offer them. Love them so much truth pity its all head knowledge, but that is what “church” does, as Jesus put it,
    Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
    They werent interested in what He had to say, they just wanted to be fed.

    In all His Love

  5. John N Sheren May 29th 2013

    The TRUTH Divides! Jesus Came to bear Witness unto the Truth! People do not hold the Truth in Righteousness! Therefore they are turned over to the Strong Delusion! GOD sends the Strong Delusion!
    Soon the LORD of Righteousness will REMOVE the TOYS and Then we will see Who are really His!

    http://www.spreaker.com/user/witnessandtestimony/word_for_today_5_29_13_life_in_the_blood

    GOD Bless
    Shalom
    No Turning Back!

  6. For a few days I have been meditating on this “The Church today worships success”

    Then I read Andrews article here….and fiind a strange Deja Vue….

    The Church has ceased to follow the way of the Cross….in pursuit of success!

  7. margaret May 29th 2013

    I am fatherless and something alkin to widowed myself but have devoted most of my good years since my dad died in the 70’s whenI was in my 20’s , to the widows in my family and around me.I have cried out for the pastors have misunderstood my position in the church,,,,, however God will build His Church anyway and the gates of hell will not prevail.

  8. Andrew, we’ve lost Christianity to the extent that we’ve let it become defined in terms of a false institutional church, led by false teachers calling themselves “pastors,” from pagan places called “pulpits.” In fact, Christianity itself MAY truly be alive and well, even though from the perspective of those who base their definitions of Christianity on the man-made terms of that false, idolatrous institution it appears to be tragically lost. Hey, the Catholics still say that it is impossible to be saved apart from membership in their “church.” How are most practitioners of churchianity any different? You talk about revival as necessary, but I’ll bet you’d be hard-pressed to make a case for that “need” that’s based solely on scripture and not historical experience.

  9. The worst part is that we don’t
    know how to get it back again. Or perhaps we don’t really WANT
    to get it back again. Quote……………………

    So true, so true.

    May God have mercy and grant us repentance, open our eyes Lord to see what is important to You.

    Without Him we can do nothing, without Him life has no real meaning.

    GaryB

  10. Richard May 29th 2013

    I have some questions…How can we lose something that has never been ours? Is it not the Body of …Christ? Do we build the church? Is God not the God of second chances? Do we have the right to judge? Did we not fall into the same traps which we are now so loudly proclaiming against? Does Jesus not say at the wedding feast..’Friend where is your wedding garments?’ Should we not rather pursue holiness instead of idle talk and walk in simple obedience to God?

    ‘I do nothing lest the Father show me’…Really?

    I want to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified…Lost Christianity? I don’t think so… By His grace I walk before Him in simple obedience…not following men and their methods but rather through love, abiding in Him and obeying all He commands me to do…

    blessings
    RichardB

  11. Why should this surprise us? Isn’t this exactly what Paul prophesied about the end time church in 2 Timothy 3: men would be lovers of money, lovers of self, unholy, having a form of godliness? Isn’t this what Jesus prophesied in Revelation 2 and 3 about the condition of the church – thinking they were rich and in need of nothing? We have merely fulfilled prophesy.

    What is the solution? Repent. We need revival. We need people to do Joel 2 – stand in the gap and cry out to God. Watch these two videos and see the solution for a fallen church: I Sought a Man and Awake Daughter of Zion

    http://youtu.be/cTbfwjDL5ro

    http://youtu.be/uaa1N13rwW8

  12. Ken Everett May 29th 2013

    .
    Sometimes I despair at ever finding that place again … true worship, true tears of repentance and joy, true Holy Spirit inspired fellowship.

    Then I realize that this is EXACTLY what our Heavenly Father said would happen – love would wax cold, and people would look elsewhere for more ‘relevant’ and comfortable messages.

    Although is seems as though the ‘world’ and the ‘enemy’ has won, Jesus Christ is still as alive and powerful to save as ever! I now know NEVER to take my eyes off Him.

    Time is running out. We who would like to be known as the Body Of Jesus Christ need to be more sensitive, more alert and more willing to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit. We can and must be available to those whom the Lord knows will be saved, before ‘it is night,when no one can work.

    Stay strong! The race is not much longer. We SHALL endure to the end – through Him Who is in us!
    .
    .

  13. Richard, your words were the only ones that rang “spritiual” to me, all the others were religious….We are saved by Grace, through, faith not of works lest no man should boast.

  14. christine May 29th 2013

    The word says we are the temple, therefore we are the church. Living epistles! The problem is we have left our first love, Jesus Christ. Revival must begin in us. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

  15. John N Sheren May 29th 2013

    AMEN Ben
    The TRUE CHURCH is alive and well! The Gates of hell are NOT prevailing against The TRUE Church of Jesus Christ!
    http://www.spreaker.com/user/witnessandtestimony/word_for_today_5_28_13_make_the_choice

    Shalom
    No Turning Back!

  16. anthony donaghey May 29th 2013

    Amen Andrew Amen!!!

  17. gloria goold May 29th 2013

    Yes to everything you said.. people want the real way, but will not break from the old way. So how can it change? God will change it, and He is (there are people working with Him), and we are going to see a huge shift, in Gods Way , in Gods timing, and it is on its way!!!
    REFORM is the name, not conform, not revival (revive what??), not denominationalism, not,not,not …we need to step away and redo under the headship of Jesus Christ, he is the head, he is the leader (no leaders in the NT but offices working together) . I am tired of all the scriptures being quoted, all the scriptures being used for benefit , all the scriptures out of context. Lets just say JESUS, let just say FATHER, do it!!! Have FAITH and listen to the word and do it!!! His way…

  18. gloria goold May 29th 2013

    Sorry , just to add, I believe fellowship( with people ) as it is called has become more important than fellowship with God first.

  19. Hi Andrew,

    How politically incorrect you are, my friend! But, sadly, how accurate I think you are. There is much more to be said, but you did a great job of identifying the condition and the problem.

    I’d like to quote that (or a portion thereof) in my next book likely titled OBEDIENCE: THE MARK OF AL CHRISTIAN.

    Blessings, brother, in Christ Jesus our LORD,

    Bernie

  20. Suzanne. May 29th 2013

    Ouch! It’s so true. We need to hear it.

  21. We have reconstructed the same temple worship system Jesus encountered when He came to earth. We have become a church of teachers and students rather than shepherds and sheep. We have segregated grace from command, Lion from Lamb, Judge from Savior, and Commander from Redeemer. Whenever you segregate a part of the whole from the whole and bow to it you worship an idol. We now worship the idol of grace, and her Pharisees are just as vehement in their dogma as those of the law were back then. It is he that leads us to the delusions of Laodicea modern American Christianity how lives under, and you decry in your article. Amen.

  22. Isaiah 29:13

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

  23. notice……and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    Jeremiah 23:28
    The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

  24. The words “not under the law”, and I’m not religious , and so much focus on Miracles and soaking in the spirit and getting rich, all departure from the true meaning of scripture have turned our churches into precept of men. Slowly and steady accepting things that are worldly and being tolerant. Gods word is true let every man be a liar.

  25. Great article Again Andrew….agreed again 100%.
    Paul’s purpose was to preach about salvation, not the entertainment of others.
    God’s way is called the Highway to Holiness, (Isaiah 35:8)not the Highway to Holy laughter or the highway to drunken in the spirit.
    God’s word clearly warns: “Depart from me you evil one, I never knew you.” The Bible has become a watered down gospel.” Witchcraft is what it is called. We must have a pure heart and ask the Lord when we are in error.
    What’s missed?? Sorrowful repentance. It’s the last days and we are clearly being warned that judgment is coming.

  26. You are so right, Andrew. The Lord started showing me this in 2001 when He called me as a witness for the children. He was and is very disappointed in us, because we much prefer our wealth to Him. Unfortunately, it isn’t just the churches that are afflicted. Many who consider themselves “Godly” do not believe they have any obligation to the children — talk about ignoring the poor and fatherless!!

    I’ve almost completed the book, The Air of Heaven. It regards our current position before Him, and what we must do. In it are many of the things He showed me, along with a number of songs, poetry, and prayers. I’ve long put most of what I write online for free, but I think it time to record this in a fashion that will be accessible when the net isn’t.

    Time is short. The situation is much worse than many realize. I must say, though, than I am relieved that one with your stature recognizes the truth.

    Pray the Lord bless this word abundantly to His glory, amen and amen.

  27. Andrew said,
    What is the essence of true Christianity that we have lost, my
    friends? It is simply described by James as follows- “Pure religion
    and undefiled is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their
    affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (Ja 1:27).

    Unfortunately, that is but a symptom. The root problem that is manifesting itself in so many ways is that we do not
    Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    It is there the WE, not them, but WE have fallen short. Find our way back to that and we fix everything. If we loved God truly, then the allurement of all else would not attract. Lu 10:27 is our answer, it is our way back. NOTHING ELSE IS.

    Things will never return to how God meant them if we continue to misdiagnose the problems, major on minors, and find fault with others. We simply need to confess our sins of lovelessness and repent of OUR wrong relationship with God and, instead, live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God and then -and only then – Christianity would be as God meant it to be. It would not matter who else is living a false or feeble Christianity. If we were living a true Christianity as individuals, then it would affect the whole, for true Christianity is LIFE and has LIFE.. We have only our ME to blame, not others. It starts with us, it ends with us.

    Thus says the Lord: “Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.” But they said, “We will not walk in it.” Jeremiah 6:16

    … ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    Jude 3

  28. Brother, absolutely there has been a large loss of a testimony in the West. But the Lord will regain it for His glory. It will come through humble ‘nobodies’ and small gatherings that will not compromise.

  29. The state of the so called church is no surprise if you refer to The Word of God. History has repeated itself and the church, just like the Israelites, absorbed more of their environment than sticking with their Deliverer. No shock there. The Bible tells us what it would be like; false doctrines, false prophets, falling away from the true Gospel to vain philosophies that tickle the ears… We are there, folks, and it’s useless [counter-productive] to focus too much on it. It is good to recognize it and speak on it occasionally but our focus needs to be on establishing ourselves in the remnant body of born again believers that focus on the True Gospel and do the service of glorifying our heavenly Father. Abandoning or prostituting the Gospel is their problem but for me. I must keep my eyes on Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus The Christ and strive for holiness and walk in the Spirit of service. A remnant few doing that is the hope of the church and life of the Gospel. Finding that Strait Gate, Narrow Way spoken of in Matthew 7. So all that is happening in this modern day church is prophecy fulfilled. Don’t sweat it. Just check yourself and do the best you can to stay true to The Word and The Way. God Bless.

  30. DonaldN May 29th 2013

    Very true….BUT..we would all do better if we ourselves simply lived out Christ in our own lives and not spend our time saying…”they are doing it all wrong!”
    Let the blind lead the blind
    Be the light the world truely needs

  31. DonaldN May 29th 2013

    The best training to reveal counterfeits is to study the real.
    The best way to reach the world is to let our light shine. They cannot ignor a bright light shining in a dark room.

  32. HHHLGA May 29th 2013

    gloria goold- RE: Sorry , just to add, I believe fellowship ( with people ) as it is called has become more important than fellowship with God first.

    – Yes, this is so true.

  33. sharon May 29th 2013

    Others have said it true, we have not lost anything that wasen’t ours to lose. Jesus Christ is building His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Sat thing is the bum on the street is just as disinterested in the gospel as the suburb dweller. Anyone will agree to what ever will get them a meal and a warm bed.
    “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee, rise up and walk”. That’s whats missing, in much of the body, and in our heart of hearts we already know it. Lord help us to hold to the faith we have and gain more daily.

  34. Paul FC May 29th 2013

    So true Andrew. Yet there are those who seriously want the Lord and are seeking true revival. As the saying goes- ‘Don’t curse the darkness, light a candle’

  35. Of course we lost it. We have not had it for generations. Is there any wonder now why judgement must fall on this world to bring about true repentance? Say goodbye to your toys and distractions. We will be forced by the hand of God into loving, dependent, God centered community type relationship ( AKA Church).

  36. Marionette May 29th 2013

    I could not agree more with you on this topic. Christianity has indeed only become an empty word. Very few of God’s children in the Western world live it as Jesus intended us to do it. The churches are full of ‘well fed, fat’ Christians who could not care less about a lost and dying world! It is time to get back to the basics of the Word of God, and LIVE it according to Jesus’ example and instructions!

  37. vreiser2012 May 29th 2013

    I just wanted to post a ‘praise report’.Here in the US, In the city I live in- Greensboro, NC- I’ve seen quite the opposite. There seems to be a trend toward churches moving into the heart of downtown. Multiple churches gathering together meeting the needs of the homeless. For example, there is ‘Church Under the Bridge’ which meets every Saturday night under a bridge downtown. The poor are fed and ministered to. That’s just one of the many ministries that serve the outcast. There are also several groups from different churches, including mine, that just go out onto the streets to feed and minster to those that aren’t within the walls of the church building. Be encouraged!

  38. Why does one man think he can speak for the thousands of those who follow Christ. Does he know each and every heart? Enough already.

  39. I am presently in Thailand having returned from the Mekong delta, there are many missionaries there teaching and rescuing young people who would otherwise be sold into slavery or the sex industry. They remaking disciples who love the Lord with all their hearts. They live in very humble and poor circumstances , depending on God for everything. The love they have for him and their dependence on the guidance of the Holy Spirit is essential. They are constantly exposed to mosquito born disease, yes they live a life of self sacrifice, there are no toys or comfort there, but the joy and unconsciously experience is something to behold. This is real Christianity

  40. michelle d. May 29th 2013

    The other night I went to hear… a once great preacher/prophet and before he started speaking… I received an open vision…

    It was the feet of saints clothed in white… Then I saw a candle stick… with a flame on it… the fire of the Lord but… then the flame went out only to smoke… so the candle stick is only smoking… it no longer has any fire…

    Then all the people put their hands on their heart and walked into the darkness from the light… the light went out!

    They had light but chose to follow men instead of GOD!

    Then they only had the left over smoke… but no fire!

    We have what ONCE… Were GREAT men preaching SMOKE with NO FIRE by which it brings no light… Only gross darkness… On the people they think the smoke is light…

    But the smoke only clouds their vision… Because they have no light from the Holy Spirit… The oil has left… They perceive it not… They are entering into darkness not light… Deception of works… religion… Not relationship!

    We need the Fire of the HOLY SPIRIT… not smoking mirrors Men are preaching… self prophecies… edifying men NOT GOD… not HOLY SPIRIT prophecies! Glorifying God… But GLORIFYING MEN!

    Worshipping the works of the creation… NOT worshipping the CREATOR….

    But worshipping the GOD OF SELF religion good works… who they are worshipping… Themselves the works of their own hands!

    NOT WHO GOD IS…

    They are religious… Not… SAVED they are doing good works…not the works of JESUS…

    The gospel is the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is t hand repent!

    For they will come and say we have healed the sick… cast out demons in your name…

    CHRIST will say I NEVER KNEW YOU … YOU WORKERS OF INIQUITY…

    GOOD WORKS ARE SMOKE… NOT FIRE…

    REPENTANCE is FIRE… SAVED… HEALED… DELIVERED..!

    GOD BRiNG forth repentance WHATEVER it TAKES we need the FIRE of GOD not SMOKE!

    The world NEEDS to see a GREAT LIGHT… not SMOKE!

    God of Abraham Isaac Jacob… Yashua… Bring forth FIRE… what is the chaff to the wheat…

    Whatever it takes… POUR FORTH FIRE… LORD… Let us BURN… what ever isn’t YOU..!

    Burn the CHAFF LORD… GOD an ALL CONSUMING fire..!
    … BURN all that isn’t you..!

    Make us the burning ones pouring the oil out of our selves… for with no oil we can’t not burn… ONLY YOU LORD… provide the oil… we must receive the oil from you not man the eternal oil of the Holy Ghost… Burn LORD… Burn..!

    Here we are LORD… BURN… WE ARE THE FIRE!

    Let no man take your candlestick…or put out your light or their will be no light in your house!

    Jesus… mercy… if when I come will I find FAITH in the EARTH…

    GIVE us the gift of FAITH… YOUR FAITH Working in US…
    That when you COME there will BE FAITH in the EARTH!

  41. religionkillsGodyourFatherSaves May 29th 2013

    I am so glad we have lost christianity! let us get back to the time before we had the roman catholic religious set up that has influenced ALL christian sects or denominations.

    Martin Luther never departed from supporting the papal system even though some think of him as some sort of hero. He supported infant baptism and sunday worship. The seventh day adventists support a saturday service but believe in the roman catholic trinity doctrine and do not refer to Spirit baptism or being led by the Spirit – Romans 8:14.

    Let us get back the the Messianic Promises under Judaism; and the Reality of those Promises being fulfilled in the Moshiach called Jesus by the christians. It is one continuation of the Promises of the Lord and the fulfillment of Those Promises.

    The Jewish people wait for their fulfillment. We have them but many have yet to walk in them.

    When there are christmas trees being thrown out by the courts etc. under the separation of church and state; I thank G-d for cleansing us of paganism.

  42. 100% Zululander May 29th 2013

    Anne & Vreiser. Thank you both sooo much. There are wonderful, real Christians all over the world. Andrew speaks of the churches in the cities & towns & on TV.
    If you want to discuss the church then go to where it is. It’s where it’s needed most, doing the things God called it to do. they’re not on these forums, they’re busy doing what God called them to do. All you criticizers who sound so spiritual & are so led by the spirit, are you doing the works were called to do like those mentioned by Anne & Vreiser?
    Come to SA & I’ll show you any amount of Christians from other countries doing wonderful work out in the “sticks” here.
    The real church is doing great, the pseudo church will always do what they’re doing & we must not fuss over it. Don’t judge the church by the pseudo church.
    Each Christian is a separate issue, it’s not fair to lump all together.
    As we look & train folk & strategize to evangelize the Muslims & Hindus so we must do the same for the pseudo Church, they’re just another group to be evangelized.
    Be Blessed

  43. Elmarie Bouwer May 29th 2013

    Wow. Powerful truths Andrew. Thank you for your obedience. Even if it is costly sometimes. He even sees a glass of cold water that’s given to a child.

  44. I have been warning people for several years that the Church of Jesus Christ, was slipping away. The hard truth is that most of the blame falls in the lap of Church leaders, priests, ministers, pastors, etc. A number of years ago, I read about a study that claimed that 75% or more of the Catholic priests, Protestant ministers, and even Evangelical leaders, DO NOT BELIEVE in the teachings of their Churches or, for that matter, in the Bible. If this is the case, then there can be only ONE reason why they remain in the ministry, EASY LIVING!

    Far too many churches today preach a false feel good gospel just to tickle the ears of their followers who do not want to hear that they are sinners. And because so many churches and church leaders have bowed to the pressure of Political Correctness, and will not offend their sheep by calling them sinners.

    How about all of the various christian churches that have knowingly and willingly crossed over to the “dark-side”, by embracing homosexuality to the point of committing blasphemy by calling upon God and the Holy Spirit to bless same-sex unions or even performing same-sex marriages?

    Churches today will sink to any level just to ensure that their pews are full and the money keeps rolling in. The message being preached is, “Don’t worry about repentance, because Jesus Loves you just the way you are.”

    It is my belief that the downfall of Christianity began when churches eagerly signed on to the government 501c3. They traded Christ for tax breaks.

  45. Caroline W May 29th 2013

    We lost Christianity not just in those mega-churches spouting materialism under the guise of being blessed but in those whose “passionate worship” looks pretty convincing. We put 20 year olds on stage who are so young in the faith that there is not a display of consistent godliness over a period of time. And we all think we are serving God because of an extreme emotional display including tears, flag waving and dance while day to day lives remain unchanged. Worship is a lifestyle of obedience not that of a junior rock star wannabee. This is not to say exuberant worship will not happen in obedient followers of Christ, it is to say it is no replacement for a consistent walk with God. Those who think it is have a form of religion lacking content, with enough form to dull the conscience

  46. Yeshua (Jesus) is not returning for Christians. He is only returning for His sheep.

    Worldly people identified followers of Yeshua as Christians about two-thousand years ago. However, Yeshua identifies His followers as “Sheep”.

    So, where did you get your identity?

  47. We are seeing a end to the church system that has been corupting and twisting God’s word for century’s. And what is about to happen is the true church, the body of Christ arise out of the wilderness that will bring a fire like in the day of pentecost. Time as we know it is almost gone and what manner of people should we be. 1 Peter 4:1-19 Those who have been brought out of the church system have been preparing for a Holy Ghost move of God and for the last harvest. So let the buildings fall and when the people see how they have been lied to then we can tell them of the real Jesus Christ.

  48. Well said and intensely convicting – yes, the church of the Laodiceans has need of nothing! What is it when that which is neither hot nor cold, speaking of “works”, that causes Jesus to vomit? Don’t know about you but that’s pretty severe…but He tells us that that YOU SAY “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing” – sounds like a suburban gospel of green to me as in PROSPERITY. Accumulated wealth, storing it up, investments galore, and, oh, yes, that abused verse: The wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous – now that’s a Laodicean specialty. I like Jesus’ indirect approach here:

    “And do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked” – that’s not nice and to top it off this “success story” needs counseling…why? Because we have no idea how deplorable our condition really is!

    Ray Stedman once told us that the Church in Laodicea confronted the touring Roman Cult of Emperor Worship – no big deal – all we have to do is pledge our allegiance to Caesar by tossing in some grain into their “sacred fire” – but somehow in their deplorable state the Laodiceans knew that was over the top. The soldiers grabbed a young lad for starters and threatened to throw him into the fire if the onlookers didn’t comply. The boy told his weeping mother not to cry because the place he was going to was much better than this – eventually, the entire church was martyred! Now you know the rest of the story.

    “I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the same of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.”

    What has happened to this “prosperity bunch” has Jesus knocking outside the door of the Church – we’re not only blind, we can’t hear – all that Jesus wants is for someone to listen to His still, small voice … He’s not going to knock the door down – we’ve got to open it and invite Him in. It’s a corporate call to the Church but it’s intensely personal … it’s like that lad who immediately knew the difference … he heard the “voice of the Son of God and lived” – do we, will we … when’s the last time we’ve had that intimate fellowship with Jesus, face to face in the breaking of bread, in the cup of fellowship?

    Jesus is coming to His temple – judgment will and must begin at the House of God first – as in throwing out the moneychangers who are performing, by the way, such an essential service in the first place – how dare Him! After all, it takes a lot to keep this “plant” thriving with so many visitors. It was from that point forward, the day after His Triumphal Entry where all was love and victory that folks sought to kill Him – but for this purpose was He driven to give His all for His Bride…talk about “purpose driven LIFE!” He will yet come to His Temple again – the time is coming and now is when we shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live…thank you, dear brother, for such a sure word.

  49. Amen Jonathan!!!

    Jesus never called anyone a Christian. They are indeed His sheep who follow Him along the Way (back to the Kingdom). The term Christian is a mocking term used to make fun of those who followed Jesus and it stuck. And if you remember, Peter warned them about being called Christians.

    It is obvious that the institutional churches today are not the true church becasue the gates of Hades are prevailing agianst them. The true church are those who are born again of the Spirit and follow the truth of the Word (Jesus), not the doctrine of man. There is so much deception around this out there and that is why those who are doing the works of the hands and not the work of Jesus are in for a total shock when Jesus tells them depart rom Me, I never knew you. Especially now when those who call themselves Christians are allowing the crosses to come down, allowing the name of Jesus to be silenced, allowing the Bible to be taken away at the borders. accepting the god of Islam as being the same as our God but goes by a different name, thinking God wants all religions to be united and sooo much more. God is not a God of religion, He is the God of truth. He wants us to separate ourselves onto only Him, to follow Him (the truth) and not the doctrines of any man-made church.

  50. Dear Andrew, this is exactly what’s weighing me down these past few years. I want to serve God, yet because we live in a free prosperous society, the tentacles of the materialistic keep me lazy and soft and useless to go out and search for people who haven’t heard.

    In my society, it’s an unspoken attitude that ministers, and churches do the work of reaching prisons, hospitals, poorhouses, etc. But today’s ministers rarely go, they think that the poor, desolate, sick, criminals will come to them. They don’t seek these out, they sit in their expensive church building office, falsely believing that God will send the oppressed to them, to their ‘church’. I’ve heard pastors preach sermons rebuking their members of not being effective enough in bringing in more people. Pastors expect the flocks to work, tithe, be present at every service, volunteer, AND go forth in the streets and byways and find souls to bring to church. Once they are brought to church, the pastor may make one attempt to pray for them at an altar service and (in my experience) never comes over after service and speaks with them. The pastor refuses to acknowledge them. I’ve seen pastors ignore new people. And these are spirit-filled pastors. They speak great swelling words and pontificate on their holy deeds and pride themselves on their dedication to God, and they brag how blessed they are that they’ve been filled the His precious Spirit. But, the sad truth is that they think of themselves so exalted, that they are too high and lifted up to resort to bending down to the homeless man in the street.
    Many are like the temple merchants with their wares, spending all their times writing books, visiting lawyers, publishinghouses, book-signings, acting like celebrities, not ministering, not physically being present to their flock, assigning ministerial duties to paid pastor’s aides who carry a load that the Lord never intended. Church pastors do not like yielding control to those who are new converts – church pastors believe they have every right to choose who they will appoint work to, and it’s invariable always men who are their yes-men. Church pastors are sometimes very neurotic and believe there’s always someone who is trying to dethrone them. If they are so anxious about such things, what kind of ‘heart’ do they have in spreading the gospel and finding the lost? Why aren’t church members being encouraged to be spiritually gifted to go out? How can a Spirit-filled churched christian have the time to attend church, attend board meetings, finance meetings, tithe, work for a living and provide for his family, look after elderly parents, children, homes and have “TIME” to go out to the highways and byways? There is absolute no way that can be achieved. And it’s not being achieved.

    Whatever is being achieved is not God’s way, nor has His stamp of approval on it. Church the way it is is NOT found anywhere in the bible.

    I can’t see the first apostles having the flocks build buildings and send flyers out to the villages, and then sit and wait for them to come in for sermons, and complaining that there’s no revival. OK, then some will say, yes, but we are in the 21st century and much has changed. And many of us live way above or way below the equatorial line and we have need of shelters in winter, and can’t walk and sleep under the stars like the first apostles did, living in tropical zones. But even so, what snapped in the church’s mind to think that we are so exquisite that they will come to us? I think pastors believe they’re beyond judgment because they have a flock, and treat that flock like their own personal property. And yes, they want the choicest flocks, the ones that dress well and bring in the best tithes. Those who are sloppy and unkempt who come in are regarded as too emotionally needy. All pastors energies are put into ‘things’ and not people.

    The lady who devoted her life to chimpanzees (Jane ?) had more dedication than today’s pastors. She didn’t care what people thought, she was determined to find out everything and anything about these animals and try to protect them. How much more for a blood-bought child of God? There is no devotion towards souls from westernized pastors anymore. There is no love, the love of many has waxed cold, riches and things have blocked the love of God in men’s hearts.

    I beieve that the Lord is beginning to sweep through these abusive churches that catch men’s souls in their nets and force them to serve man, not God. I can’t believe christian writers do this, 10 steps to a more fulfilled life stuff and have a conscience. Christian leaders’ consciences have been seared and brainwashed by the culture and they can’t see how absolute naked they are, nor do they see how they are keeping their flocks naked and deceived.

    If repentence doesn’t come fast and hard now in the churches, there will be a day of weeping and gnashing of teeth. I pray that I can serve the Lord, being unchurched, and have the strength to shake off the culture from my mind and be ready and willing to go or do what must be done. And only the Lord Jesus can do this; I am weak but He is strong!!

  51. I agree with most of what you said, except for one part. I never lived in the inner city, what is wrong with church in the suburbs? Why not both for that matter?!! It doesn’t make sense to just have it in the inner city, there are people all over the place. And I’m not sure that it’s a sin to be afraid of the inner city anyway. Is it? I don’t know, I’m just asking. Especially as a woman. Wonder if you are a single woman? So I guess I agree with everything you said except for the church location having to be in the inner city, I really strongly disagree with that, it should be everywhere! I would like to make another comment about the inner city. It seriously scares me. If that is wrong, I definitely invite God to change me. Maybe it’s ok for a guy to go down there, or a woman with a man, but I wouldn’t want to go there as a woman by myself.

  52. WE ARE WORSE

    We worship God in vain and we pray for revival in vain. We do not know our own sins and iniquities. How can we repent when we don’t know what to repent of? What sins? What iniquity? It would be more tolerable for the Northern Kingdom of Israel in the days of Isaiah, and the Kingdom of Judah in the days of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, on the day of judgment, than for the body of Christ today.

    We are a thousand times worse than the people in the days of Isaiah and Jeremiah. After all, they were under an imperfect Old Covenant. They did not have the New Covenant in His blood. We do. The Lord came down from heaven to suffer and die for us so that we would have a better and more perfect way. But we have rejected the New Covenant, given lip service to God and returned to Babylon.

    WE REJECTED THE TEMPLE OF GOD. The Lord Jesus did away with temples of stone and wood. He found temples to be the center of hypocrisy and barriers to the people coming to know their God. So, He did away with temples made by men and He made our body the temple of God and put His Holy Spirit on the throne in our heart. 1 Co. 3:16; 6:19. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in our body and baptize us with fire. He put His commandments and statutes in our heart and mind. Heb. 8:10; 10:16. He did away with the Old Covenant and disannulled, rescinded and canceled it. Heb. 7:18; 8:6-11, 13; 10:9.

    For over 312 years after Jesus returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, there were no church buildings. The saints met in houses, the marketplace, and wherever Christians were. Of the over 22,000 documents written during the first 312 years after Jesus Christ returned to heaven, not a single mention was made of a church in a building. People met in houses and wherever they could, but not in a church or temple building.

    America is only 220 years old (some claim 236). Imagine – the early church did not worship in church buildings and cathedrals for over 312 years (when the Roman Catholic Church came into existence). That is a long time. After 312 AD, however, the church rejected God’s plan and returned to worshipping in buildings and cathedrals. They resurrected the Old Covenant church (temple) and faulty priesthood and rejected the Lord Jesus as their high priest. Heb. 10:21; 7:21-28; 8:1-2; Heb. 9:11.

    The Lord Jesus is “a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.” Heb. 8:2. The true tabernacle is not made of wood and stone. We are the temple of God. God does not dwell in buildings; He dwells in our heart today.

    WE REINSTATED THE ELITE PRIESTHOOD that Jesus did away with. The Lord not only made our body the temple of God, He made every saint a king and priest unto Him. Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10. If you qualified under 1 Timothy 3:1-16, you could be a church leader. You didn’t need a college or seminary degree, much less a doctorate degree. You didn’t have to know how to read or write. Some of the five-fold ministry (Eph. 4:11) of the first three centuries were uneducated fishermen and laborers filled with the Spirit of God.

    Watchman Nee, in some of his writings, claims that he was often surprised to find that many housewives in remote mountain villages, who did not know how to read and write, knew the Bible better than the Bible college students that accompanied him on his journeys. They were taught by the Holy Spirit. 1 Jn. 2:27.

    We have gone back to an elite priesthood of highly educated pastors and ministers with their college degrees, impressive credentials and worldly accomplishments, elaborate rituals, ceremonies, impressive priestly garb, art work, huge choirs, passion plays and control by men.

    As in the days of Samuel, the prophet, we have demanded human leaders and rejected the leading of God. Instead of the leading of the Spirit (1 Sa. 8:6-19; Ro. 8:14), the body of Christ would rather have man-made programs, “truths,” customs and traditions that put man’s thoughts and ways higher than God’s. Is. 55:9. We have refused to go back to God’s old paths and to walk therein. Jer. 6:16. We have turned the Lord Jesus into a golden calf around whom we can dance and worship the flesh, led by carnal men who claim to know God but do not. We have made Jesus into a stage prop and promoted His name in order to raise money to support our lavish lifestyles and ambitions and to build larger buildings and ministries that honor men and not God. “John Doe International Ministries” and “Jane Doe Ministries,” along with business cards calling themselves “apostles” and “international evangelists” are common today.

    WE REJECTED THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION AND CREATED OUR OWN. The Lord Jesus suffered, shed His precious blood and died on the cross on Calvary to bring forgiveness and salvation to those that believe on and receive Him as their God and Savior, accept His blood sacrifice on the cross, repent of their sins and are water baptized. The apostle Paul stated that there is only one true gospel of salvation – Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Co. 1:23; 1 Co. 2:1-5. The erudite, intelligent and brilliant orator, Paul, refused to speak enticing words or come with excellency of speech or wisdom.

    And I brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

    And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1 Co. 2:1-5.

    The Holy Spirit does not convict hearts with any other message of salvation, – only the cross of Jesus will do.

    Instead, the church has created new gospels of salvation based on blessings, prosperity, good family atmosphere, loving fellowship, financial help and other clever, persuasive enticements and wisdom of men. According to The Barna Group report of 1997, 34% of born-again Christians, 53% of all Christians and 73% of mainline Protestants believe that if a person is good, he will go to heaven. Sins, repentance, Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection are now irrelevant to most Christians. They believe that you don’t need Jesus to go to heaven.

    HAVE REJECTED THE CROSS OF JESUS and the true message of salvation, followed by the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. 1 Co. 2:4. Hardly anyone preaches sin, repentance and the cross of Jesus, followed by the demonstration of the Spirit and power any more.

    There is hardly any power left because there is hardly any faith left. Where are those that preach the gospel of salvation in much weakness, fear and trembling and then follow the gospel of salvation with demonstrations of power by the Holy Spirit? As the Lord Jesus said, “When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith in the earth?” We know the answer. According to both Charles Finney and Maria Woodworth-Etter, fully 50% of people attending church are not really saved.

    WE HAVE KICKED THE HOLY SPIRIT OUT OF HIS CHURCH. Most churches do not acknowledge the leadership of the Holy Spirit, no longer believe in speaking in new tongues or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Signs and wonders and the demonstration of power by the Holy Spirit are no longer sought after or even found in our churches, including so-called Pentecostal churches. I have traveled to many countries and am constantly surprised that Pentecostal churches no longer emphasize the leading of the Holy Spirit, His power, and speaking new tongues. Casting out of devils and healing the sick through laying on of hands has all but disappeared. Few can speak in new tongues. Yet, the Bible says, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” Ro. 8:14. Instead, clever and witty sermons have filled churches. Clever and funny speakers that leave the saints laughing in the aisles are much sought after.

    Brother Yun, a pastor who escaped from a prison in China to live in Germany a few years back was asked, “Brother Yun, what do you see as the biggest difference between our Christian services in the West as compared to services in China?” Brother Yun pondered for a moment and replied softly, “Here in the West, you Christians laugh a lot. In China, we cry a lot.”

    Many churches have great programs, big music ministry, passion plays, stirring Christmas services laden with Christmas trees and Santa Claus, Easter egg hunts, youth programs, married Christians program, a large bulletin board, printed programs, a large choir dressed in flowing gowns, a beautiful stage and sometimes altar, song books, musicians, TV monitors, beautiful processionals and recessionals, a set Sunday service with sermons limited to 15 minutes. Some have a large parish hall, cafeteria and parking lot. They are dead as a door knob. There are no visions and dreams from God, no prophecies, word of wisdom or word of knowledge, casting out of devils, healing the sick or raising the dead. There is no Holy Spirit in most churches. We kicked Him out. It is now man’s church, not God’s.

    Yet, the Holy Spirit was given to us to live in us as our counselor and revealer of truth to the church and the saints individually. Jn. 14:16-17. He was sent be our Comforter, and to reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He is the Spirit of truth, our guide and our connection to the Father and the Son. Jn. 16:7-15. He gives us spiritual gifts (1 Co. 12:1-11) and helps us to grow into spiritual maturity through the fruit of the Spirit. Gal. 5:22-23. But, we don’t want Him interfering with our programs, institutions and traditions.

    WE REJECTED THE MINIMUM STANDARD FOR ALL BELIEVERS GIVEN BY THE LORD JESUS. In Mark 16:17-18, the Lord said, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” It is increasingly difficult to find Christians who can cast out devils, speak in new tongues and heal the sick by the laying on of hands, much less take up serpents and enjoy God’s protection. Many churches label Christians that do meet this minimum standard as a bunch of heretics and misled fanatics who are doing these things through the devil, because the Holy Spirit went back to heaven once the early church was established. I have actually been told to my face, that I cast out devils, heal the sick and speak in new tongues by the devil’s power because the Holy Spirit went back to heaven. Jesus called it “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.” Mt. 12:31.

    WE REJECTED THE BIBLE. The Bible says not to accept a Jesus different from the Jesus of the Bible or doctrines not taught by the first apostles. 2 Co. 11:3-4; Gal. 1:8, 9; Jude 3; Titus 1:9, 11, 13. We have disobeyed and brought into the church many doctrines not supported by the Bible or taught by the first apostles. Among these are Pre-tribulation Rapture, Dispensationalism, Once saved Always saved, Satan was an archangel named Lucifer (a Latin word), Manifest Sons of God, Latter Rain and we celebrate many holidays and observe rituals forbidden by Colossians 2:26: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect to an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.” They were done away with. We have not earnestly contended for the truth which was once delivered to the saints. Jude 3.

    The Barna Group, which conducts surveys and publishes the results in book form, printed the following survey results in 1997:

    (1) 34% of born-again Christians, 53% of all Christians and 73% of mainline Protestants believe that if a person is good, he will go to heaven. You don’t need Jesus to go to heaven.
    (2) 66% of evangelicals don’t believe that the Bible is totally accurate; 74% of Catholics agree and 42% of all Christians agree.
    (3) 28% of born-again Christians, 65% of evangelicals, and 40% of all Christians believe that Jesus was a sinner when He walked the earth.
    (4) 52% of born-again Christians, 72% of Catholics, and 80% of all Christians don’t believe that the devil is real, that he is only a symbol of evil.
    (5) 55% of born-again Christians, 61% of all Christians don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, that He is only a symbol of God’s presence and power.
    (6) 35% of born-again Christians and 39% of all Christians do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead bodily. (All underlinings are mine)

    WE REJECTED THE NEW COVENANT for which Jesus died (Heb. 9:14-28) and reverted back to the Old Covenant. We refuse to be led by the Spirit of God and instead, have returned to good works and the written law that is not of faith. There is much confusion regarding the New Covenant versus the Old Covenant. Some Jewish Christians and others, as in the first century AD (1 Co. 15:1-20; Gal. 6:12-13), continue to promote the idea that the Old Covenant laws and festivals still prevail and must be obeyed and observed, although there is no evidence that the first century church had the same view. The apostle Paul was clear that:

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16.

    For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal. 2:18-19.

    Some Christians stubbornly observe the Old Testament festivals, bring back the temple garb, altar, incense and other Jewish customs in a mistaken belief that the Old Covenant was merely amended and not done away with. Yet, the Bible is clear that the Old Covenant was rescinded in full. God gave us the New Covenant, “Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.” Heb. 8:9.

    Instead of a day of rest, Jesus became our rest and we no longer look to a day but to Him. “For if Jesus had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of another day.” Heb. 4:8. In other words, if Jesus gives us rest, He would not speak of a day of rest. “Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Mt. 11:28-30.

    Some have gone back to observing Saturday as a day of rest, even though Colossians 2:16 says that we are not to observe any sabbath days. They insist that the grace of God is not enough. Yet, the works of the law, including its written laws, rituals, festivals and tabernacles, were only a shadow of better things to come. “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.” Heb. 10:1. Once the substance has come, there is no need for the shadow. Heb. 8:13.

    The New Covenant is vastly different from the Old Covenant, as the flesh is from the spirit. “For the law made nothing perfect.” Heb. 7:19. “He (Jesus) is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” Heb. 8:6-7. “A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” Heb. 8:13. God made a new covenant “because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not.” He canceled or “disannulled” the Old Covenant. The word “covenant” means “solemn agreement.”

    WHAT DOES DISANNUL MEAN?

    God was invoking a well-established law of agreements called “rescission;” to-wit: If one party to a contract does not perform what he promised or agreed to (“non-performance”), the other party is not obligated to perform his part of the same agreement either. The non-breaching party may rescind, cancel and annul the agreement. This is what God did with the Old Covenant. “For there is verily a disannuling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Heb. 7:18-19. “He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.” Heb. 10:9. The two covenants do not run side by side. The old covenant was canceled and the new took its place in totality, not piece by piece. It was not merely amended or added to.

    When a contract is rescinded, cancelled or annulled, it is done away with completely. When a new contract is made, it may have some of the old provisions, but nothing remains of the first contract or agreement that can be enforced. The new contract stands by itself. While the old contract can be used sometimes to explain the intent or purpose of the parties where there is some confusion or vagueness in the new contract, the new contract stands by itself and none of the provisions of the old contract are enforceable.

    Likewise, the New Covenant stands by itself. The Old Covenant may serve as examples and shadows (Heb. 8:5; 1 Co. 10:11) to explain something more clearly in the New Covenant, but provisions in the Old Covenant have no force and effect of law, so to speak, and is non-enforceable. For instance, American laws are based in large part on the common laws of England. However, English common law has no legal impact on American citizens, except to explain how American laws evolved or to better understand American laws.

    Some denominations or churches attempt to incorporate Old Covenant laws, rules, rituals, ceremonies and feasts on the ground that they still apply. This is not true. In the New Covenant, God put the His laws in our minds and hearts (Heb. 8:10) but it doesn’t mean that the written commandments are still in effect pursuant to the Old Covenant. As in the natural, when one rescinds an old contract and makes a new one, there may be some provisions that seem identical to some in the old contract, but it doesn’t follow that the old contract is therefore still alive either in whole or in part. The old contract has been done away with and has no legal standing, other than to possibly help interpret the new contract. That’s all. Incorporating some of the provisions of a previous contract does not resurrect the old contract in part or otherwise. “He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.” Heb. 10:9. God takes no more pleasure in sacrifice and offering under the written law. Heb. 10:8.

    A man who goes back to the Old Covenant profits nothing. He becomes a debtor to do the whole law. Gal. 5:2, 3. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Gal. 5:4. “A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Ro. 3:28. “The just shall live by faith.” Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38.

    If the wrath of God fell on Israel and Judah under the Old Covenant, how much more will it fall upon America and the rest of the Christian world today under the New Covenant?

    WE REJECTED GOD’S DESIRE AND PLAN TO PERFECT THE SAINTS. God created the heavens and the earth and all in it, including Adam and Eve and their descendants for two purposes and desires: “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Ro. 8:29. God desires perfect sons and daughters in the image of Jesus Christ.

    And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ . . . but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. Eph. 4:11-13,15.

    Second, God desires a perfect church that will ultimately become the Bride of Christ. Rev. 19:7-9; 21:2; 22:17.

    God perfects His children through trials, scourgings, tests, sufferings and problems. “For whom the Lord loveth He chaseneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chaseneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards.” Heb. 12:6-8.

    “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.” Heb. 12:11. The apostle Peter spoke thusly: “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” 1 Pet. 1:7.

    Likewise, the apostle James states, “My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.” Ja. 1:2-3. “Many are the afflictions of the righteous.” Ps. 34:19. This is what the apostle Paul said regarding the apostles:

    But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; by pureness, by knowledge, by longsufferings, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honour and dishonour, by evil report: as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; as sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. 2 Co. 6:4-10.

    FOLLOW THE PATH OF THE APOSTLES

    In 2 Thessalonians 3:7,9, the apostle Paul says, “For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us; . . . Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.” We are encouraged to follow the examples of the apostles in pursuing perfection in Christ.

    The apostle Peter, put it this way: “For even hereunto were we called because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps. . . .” 1 Pet. 1:21. The Lord Jesus did not live by earthly wealth and conveniences. The apostle Paul willingly gave up all of his earthly wealth and reputation to follow Jesus. Phil. 3:7-15. He said, “. . . let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.” Phil. 3:16-17. In 2 Co. 6:4-10, the great apostle spoke of the many trials and sufferings the apostles endured. In 2 Co. 11:23-33, Paul spoke of the numerous beatings, shipwrecks, dangers, weariness, pains, hunger and thirst, nakedness and other things he endured for the sake of knowing Christ. Phil. 3:4-15. Following his example does not even remotely resemble the prosperity doctrine the church, for the most part, embraces today.

    The apostle Paul then makes this statement: “(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)” Phil. 3:18-19.

    All of Paul’s above words have been rejected by most in the new wave of Christians who are told that God wants to give all Christians “life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” Jn. 10:10. But the Lord wasn’t talking about physical or earthly life. He was talking about life in the Spirit. The flesh leads to death, while the Spirit leads to life. Ro. 8:1-14. Instead, we have pursued the good “life” in the flesh that leads to spiritual death.

    Jesus Christ instructed us: “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it.” Mt. 10:38-39; 16:24; Mk. 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 9:23; 14:27. This doesn’t sound like the prosperity message we hear so often today.

    The first apostles, no doubt, were all willing to die horrible deaths to show us the way. It was a honor to die for the sake of the Kingdom of God and to join in the sufferings of the Savior, although their deaths cannot compare to what the Lord Jesus did on the cross for us. That is the true path of every believer, not the road to a penthouse apartment, a mansion, expensive car and clothes, first-class on an airplane or even your own airplane, and membership in an exclusive country club.

    WE HAVE DONE THE WILL OF THE FLESH AND NOT OF THE FATHER. The Lord Jesus said,

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mt. 7:21-23.

    The Self thinks it is the flesh. When Adam and Eve sinned against God, they lost their spirit light and immediately saw their nakedness for the first time. From that moment on, the flesh demanded worship and attention. Adam and Eve sewed fig leaf aprons to protect and cover their flesh. We’ve been doing it ever since. The flesh demands food, clothes, shelter and sex, the more the better and the best, no less. Mankind have killed one another for thousands of years to gain power and riches so that they can have more and better food, clothes, shelter and sex. Flesh is God for most. Rev. 18:12-13. The spirit of the fallen Adam sits on the throne in their heart and in most churches today.

    REVIVAL

    Many churches and groups of Christians are fasting and praying for revival/harvest. Thousands come together in seminars, conventions and intercessory prayer sessions to ask God to bring about revival. Some correctly claim that repentance is the key to revival, but they have no idea what to repent of. They know that America and the world have turned away from God, but they still celebrate Christmas and Easter and continue to worship in large buildings controlled by an elite priesthood. They still, unknowingly or otherwise, reject the New Covenant, the cross of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Bible. The vast majority do not speak in tongues or cast out devils and are, in fact, openly against it. They blame others for turning away from God and His ways, but are also in it up to their ears. “What? Me sin? What sin? I am innocent.”

    Why would God allow a great revival as He did in the days of King Josiah and Jeremiah, the prophet? Instead of turning back to God, the people turned away even more. The temples were filled and prospering, but the people continued their evil ways. They did not know their own sins and thought that God was pleased. But it was abomination to God. What is the difference between the people of Jeremiah’s day and the body of Christ today that would turn away God’s great wrath? After all, the great revival in King Josiah’s day ended in destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. “Notwithstanding the Lord turned not away from the fierceness of His great wrath.” 2 Ki. 23:26. God allowed Babylon to destroy God’s people, His temple and Jerusalem. He is about to do it again.

    BABYLON – WORLD POWER. Babylon is knocking at the door again. She is already here in the spirit and has overcome the saints. Some Christians claim that Babylon must be the trading center of the earth to fulfill Rev. 18:1-19. Right now, it is only desert and it would take at least fifty years for Babylon to be resurrected. But Babylon is a spiritual city.

    ANTICHRIST IN THE TEMPLE. Many Christians think that the end of the world is far off because the temple in Jerusalem is under the control of Islam right now and the Jewish people must first take it back before antichrist can sit on the throne in the temple in Jerusalem. But under the New Covenant, Jesus made our body the temple of God and put the Holy Spirit on the throne in our heart. 1 Co. 3:16; 6:19. The “man of sin” is the spirit of the fallen Adam (“the man”) who wanted to be God. When Adam sinned, he became the “man of sin, the son of perdition.” He already sits on the throne in the hearts of most people, in the temple of God, a different Christ from the one in the Bible – the antichrist. Either Self, the spirit of the First Adam, sits on the throne in your heart or the Last Adam, Jesus Christ. 1 Co. 15:45-47.

    When the One-World Government lines everyone up to either renounce Jesus and take the mark of the beast, which is the number of “the man” (Rev. 13:18) or be killed, the world will know which Adam sits on the throne in your heart in the temple of God, which is your body. Will it be the Lord that came from heaven to bring life? or will it be “the man of sin” who says, “I am God! Worship me!”, and who “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Th. 2:4.

    Do not be deceived. The beginning of sorrows is already upon us. Tribulation is next.

    IN SPITE OF OUR GREAT SINS, God may yet allow His people one last chance to repent. It is solely because of His love and mercy and for His great name’s sake. God is showing incredible patience and long-suffering. His love, mercy and grace are beyond human comprehension. The door has already closed, but if we persist, repent and call upon His name, He may yet open the door one last time. Lk. 11:5-9.

    A VISION. In October of 2009, two hours out of Manila on an airplane, I had a vision of the world. It was about the size of a softball in front of me. I saw lightning and heard thunder and knew that there was a battle going on in the heavens between God’s angels and Satan’s strong men. Lightning flashed to and from planet earth. The world was pitch-black. Suddenly, I could see tiny pin pricks of light here and there. The lights grew larger and larger until the entire earth was lighted, but only as bright as an early dawn. Within a short time, the lights went completely out. I asked God, “Why have revival and a great harvest if most Christians will fall away anyway?” He answered, “Judgment. No one will be able to say that they didn’t know.” The Lord spoke to me of many things, but I cannot remember them. I do remember asking God, “Lord, what are you about to do?” The Lord answered, “Mind your own business. (I was reminded of John 21:22) You will not be able to perceive or understand what I am about to do. Just obey Me. Do not preach for results. Preach to obey.”

    DANIEL’S (AND GOD’S) PATTERN FOR REVIVAL.

    The people taken captive into Babylon were still worshiping Babylonian gods and goddesses. But one man began to intercede for God’s people. His name was Daniel. In Daniel 9:1-27, he set himself to confess and repent for the sins of the people. In verse 11, he acknowledged that curses had come down upon God’s people because of their sins. The Bible does not say precisely and in detail what the sins were, but we already know. As a result of Daniel’s intercession, God forgave the people and Israel was liberated by Cyrus of Persia. That is where the body of Christ is today. God is looking for His Daniels of the end times to begin to weep and cry out to Him, and to repent for the sins of the people.

    Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: and rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth Him of the evil. Who knoweth if He will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God? Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck at the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Joel 2:12-17.

    Do you hear the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war? I pray that you do.

    Richard B. W. Ing, Senior Pastor
    Light of the World Missions
    P. O. Box 37451
    Honolulu, Hawaii 96837
    Visit our website at: http://www.lightoftheworldmissions.com

  53. Some interesting comments Andrew.
    Perhaps some of those whose comments relate to the state of ” Christian” tv should get their own program on air.
    Sadly much of today’s ” evangelical” preaching doe not relate to every day living ( Monday to Friday) I wonder how many pastors and preachers who read Andrews comments can honestly say they preach messages which help their listeners. Knowing how far it is from Dan to Beersheba will not help when problems come and spiritual guidance is needed.. The true church of Jesus is made up of people not a building.
    Thanks Andrew for your timely reminder and comments.
    Selah

  54. Sadly,what many consider as “Christianity,is just a form of “feel good” pablum, spoon fed to all ,on Sunday morning.Many ministers seem too well aware that they have you there for anywhere from1 hour to an hour and 1/2 and gear their sermon to “getting everyone on their way,before the Baptists get to Luby’s first.” I ache ot hear fire and brimstone,sitting on the hard pews until late Sunday night in a non air conditioned church ,swatting mosquitoes. Or going to a tent revival,feeling the Holy Spirit at work. I don’t know that we have lost Christianity,but we sure have hidden it well!

  55. Glywn McInnes May 29th 2013

    Great stuff Andrew,- glad to see you got there with this realisation!! I haven’t read any of the comments below, but i have to say that the filly that came to grief in Kentucky a few years ago (Eight Belles) gave us who are awake, to the fact, that in that event, God intimated that His Watch was over on this world ! (nautical=eight bells =last watch) We are on our own now, all hell is breaking loose on earth while us Christians are merrily going along,- happily singing ‘This is the day that the Lord has made,–‘
    So, what would Jesus do ??? !
    Glywn.

  56. Lightning Storm May 29th 2013

    It’s only DOOM and GLOOM if you are looking at the FALSE “body” instead of the TRUE BODY.

    Jesus called us a REMNANT for a reason……because FOLLOWING Jesus by LAYING DOWN OUR WILL/LIVES FOR HIS WILL/LIFE is NOT POPULAR (accepted/welcomed) by the MASSES.

    The MASSES have chosen a religion of their own making.
    They TAG EVERYTHING THEY SAY AND DO WITH THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, like a superstitious “rubber stamping” approval by God.

    This is nothing but SORCERY AND WITCHCRAFT using a COUNTERFEIT “Jesus Christ”.

    No different than any other CULT that uses the name of a COUNTERFEIT “Jesus Christ”.

    A FORM without the SUBSTANCE.

    It seems the REMNANT is alive and doing quite well.

    AMEN! for the posts from Deborah; Greg; Ben; RichardB; John Sheren; Michael Wolff; Sharon

  57. Roger (NZ) May 29th 2013

    Whether we have ‘lost christianity’ or not, I cannot say..

    However, I do see that many have lost their directive from the Holy Spirit, and from Scripture, to the person of Lord Jesus – focusing instead on their own goals and desires.

    As a result – many have ‘lost’ Jesus as Lord – He awaits repentance, a turning back to Him.

    Matthew 11 records His words: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

    A friend of mine said this: Go with the source, leave the problem behind.

  58. Israel May 29th 2013

    Looking for Love in all the wrong places.
    pulpits, pews and stained glass faces.

    Real life comes about in a painful bloody mess.
    Real love is getting dirty and entering into all the joy and the pain. It is taking up everything you don’t want to take up and laying down everything you don’t want to lay down. It is giving up on the outcome so you can stop trying to make it happen and just be.
    It is loving enough to standing against each others wrong even if it means loosing the relationships you want to keep.

    Get real and you will loose your faith in God and then find out it was not really in God in the first place but in your own understanding.
    For Love’s sake step into the place where you don’t want to go and take up the work for which you are incapable.

    Because in your dependency on the Spirit for even the thoughts you think and words you speak. You may just find a real Church. That Spirit that binds you together with those who you sacrifice your life with, those who know you at your worst because you cry out together to be completed.

    Church is that fellowship.

  59. Serenity May 29th 2013

    I went to Ptr. Richard Ing’s site after reading his teaching above. He talks about giving our resources to where the fish are biting (like in Asia), rather than to dying Laodicean entities among us where there is so much spiritual hardheartedness.

    Jesus found that Pharisees with hard hearts were a waste of time. There are so many among us.

    Give the hungry something to eat ; don’t waste your precious ‘bread’ on the dogs.

    If I cannot physically work on a foreign mission field, at least let me send what money I can to support a keen national worker there. Amen !
    Let the dead bury their dead ; we are to preach the gospel to the poor – wherever they may be.

  60. wineskin May 29th 2013

    Andrew’s realization is a hard thing for any Christian to swallow but, truth told, his words barely scratched the surface about the deeply infected condition of our “Christianity”. The problem is far bigger and more counter-productive than any Christian will ever confess to—mostly because of their self-sacrificial dedication to the problem itself.

    The bad news: The inhabitants of Christianity can never unravel the monumental mess they have made and are now caught up in.

    The good news: He can, and is doing so as we speak. A few Christians are being drawn far enough away from Christianity to get an unadulterated look at what they’ve been sleeping with in the name of Christ.

  61. No Andrew “We” have not lost Christianity, and the reason is because Jesus did not start Christianity, which is a religion.

    Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

    If you believe the words of Jesus then you will understand that nothing will prevail against HIS CHURCH, not even the gates of Hell!

    The body of Christ is composed of those who have been born of water and Spirit, born from above, and the Lord knows those who are His. “WE” are the temple of God in which HE dwells by HIS SPIRIT.

    The buildings that are called ‘church’ is NOT THE CHURCH Of JESUS CHRIST and the day is coming when all the man-made cathedrals and ‘mega-churches’ will fall and the only thing that will stand in the aftermath is Christ in us the hope of glory!

  62. Kenny Atnip May 29th 2013

    If we each live our lives as Christ did we will reap our reward when he returns and in the process Church will be what it is supposed to be.

  63. wineskin May 29th 2013

    Christianity is not wholesome and pretty, and there’s a few Christians who are no longer afraid to say so.

  64. I would highly recommend K.P. Yohannan with Gospel for Asia as a very balanced missions group.

    http://www.gfa.org/

    GaryB

  65. It is easy to sit back behind our computer screens and pontificate on the hypocrisy of the church. Pointing at the bleeding obvious is a practice in futility and a waste of His economy.

    Fifteen years ago I was sitting in a large, fast growing church, passionately expressing exactly this to an audience of wealthy listeners, when the Lord showed me a spiritual mirror. As I wagged my finger and inferred “what are you doing,” the Lord reflected it back to me. It shook me to my core; righteous indignation or self-righteousness. I’m afraid I knew the answer or God would not have interrupted my indictment of the church as I was doing Him a favor by pointing this disparaging fact out.

    After much prayer and self-reflection, I headed to foreign lands to find my God given mission, only to find out it was in my own back yard.

    Our churches are filled with Christians who want to do something but don’t know where to start. If you wish to exact change, be the light, be the living example, and then examine the fruit. If it is pleasing to our Lord, tell your friends and so on and so forth.

    Continue to love what the Lord loves and hate what He hates, Much of the body is heading in the way of the world so it needs you Andrew and your passion for God, but in your condemnation don’t forget the wheat and the tares.

    In His service!

  66. margaret May 30th 2013

    Meanwhile hello people ,God Himself is doing a great work to expose the harlotry sins of false leadership and sodomy in the catholic Churches of Rome, false royaty of Great Britain and Europe, in response to the cries for justice by and for the oppressed , and thus the harvest is very white for redemptive intercession,and salvation of many ;and ….’Unless the Lord builds HIS Church they labour in vain that build it’……

  67. I think Serenity it gets to a point where we’ve offered the truth, extended it, extended it graciously and in love and it is not received…

    At this point I believe the Lord gives us the “OK” that we’ve completed our call in that area – if the truth is not received…

    The Patience of God keeps waiting but there is a point where His Patience is exhausted – in terms of offering the truth…

    If we are close to Him we will know when this is…

    If we are interceding then we keep interceding until the burden lifts – until we achieve our intercession…

    If we are offering truth then that is a different story…

    The Lord can release us from a burden to bring forth truth to a certain person or group of people if that truth is not received…

    But we can still carry the burden in intercession for that person or that group of people who are not receiving the truth if the Lord gives it to us…

    It’s all about being led by the Holy Spirit and we will be if we are surrendered to Him…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  68. Randall May 30th 2013

    Thanks, Andrew, for correctly nailing this, as we were in a businessmen’s fellowship meeting this noon, asking ourselves the question “Where did everyone go and why?”

    A very timely article, I forwarded it to the fellowship president.

    – Randall

  69. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    No Power….No Transformation
    No Power….No Repentance
    No Power….No Revival
    No Presence….No Power

    Cry out to the Holy Spirit to teach you how to ENTER INTO HIS PRESENCE AND GLORY.

    Cry out to the Holy Spirit for HOLINESS.

    Cry out to the Holy Spirit to teach you how to PRAY ACCORDING TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

  70. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013
  71. Roger (NZ) May 30th 2013

    Gospel Fellowships – saw your comment earlier in this thread – and also received an email from elsewhere today, referencing your book.

    Obviously, I haven’t read it yet, however I do agree with your directing of all to the person of Lord Jesus, a rebuke to those who are distracted, and have lost their first love.

    For those who are interested, the book may be found here: http://gospelfellowships.net/principles-book/

  72. No we have not lost Christianity the world has applied that the label “christian” to the false church!
    GaryB You recommend this url http://www.gfa.org/

    Please understand that i am being devils advocate here and nothing personal to others, rather to jolt an awakening to God’s righteousness – not our own filthy rags.
    I have read the gfa.org doctrinal Statement and can find nothing that designates this group as Christian!
    A good works charity yes.
    Andrews asserts that “we’ve lost Christianity” then maybe gfa.org is a prime example? I can only commend their good works many non christian charity’s do just as well.

    We can be certain that Jesus nowhere promoted the idea of bible seminaries. which in my view are colleges for indoctrination of many false teachings.
    His students walked the streets of Palestine daily with Him for three and a half years they did not “graduate” ’till Pentecost the “diploma ” they received was from on high it was the anointing of the Holy Ghost and Power given visibly, audibly, by Jesus Hmself. any person who has not received their own personal, identical, ratification, as the 3,120 in Acts two – (the signature from Jesus was they spoke in tongues) is not “yet” a christian .Non annotated “churches” can complain and argue to eternity on this point, doctrinally they are dead wrong – no pun intended – an un-anointed person does NOT fit the bible definition of a christian
    If this offends some of you I am not sorry, and i believe Andrew S. and others here understand this simple truth!. “Main stream” churches even many so called pentecostal ones do not agree, and fight this truth. In that sense they never were christian or else have passed it over for recognition by the masses, or money, or temporal power or the praise of men or just to gain numbers on seats.
    If we love, we will point out the error and the solution.
    God said He will call His people out of falsehood .Jesus said My sheep hear my voice! Do we hear his voice to Nicodemus (and therefore to to all) in John 3 or stop our ears.as they did to Stephens testimony.. “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
    Pr Michael

  73. Dear brother Andrew, what you are describing is the great falling away. Never has Christianity been at such a low ebb in the western world as it is today. Even as we speak the pool is getting shallower. There is and has been a great drought for some considerable time. The rain of His presence has all but dried up. There is a famine in the land because without the rain, without the presence of God, how can the word of God be preached with the power to penetrate hard shallow hearts?

    In Kansas where I live, after pro-longed droughts, the ground becomes exceedingly hard and cracked and even when a heavy rain comes, it is like a flash flood, never truly penetrating the ground, just flowing violently for a short while over the top and very shortly after the rain stops, it is like it never rained at all.

    The only cure for it is pro-longed rains, day after day, a soaking and penetrating rain until the ground becomes ” saturated.” After it is saturated, then even the slightest rain causes floods. God, is calling out His people from the churches and systems that you just described. They are His remnant saints. They are dismayed and deeply troubled, as you are, with the state of the church, there is a deep cry in their hearts and it is there because the Lord put it there.

    The prophetic clock is undoubtedly ticking. The Lord is coming back for His own. He is surely coming soon. Saints from all over the world ” know ,” this in their spirits. Shall we be partakers of the church you just described? God is calling out His saints, this is the separation. He is not calling them out to be lone rangers, although He has and is taking them through a desert to prepare them for the great persecution to come. He is beginning to call them together. We are having our own remnant meetings in July In Oklahoma, near Bartlesville with brother Brain Long who you preached along side at a SI revival conference. People can find out the details here https://www.facebook.com/acalltotheremnant Thanks for the word Andrew, keep telling it how it is……bro Frank

  74. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    Whoohoo Pr Michael! Preach it.
    “an un-anointed person does NOT fit the bible definition of a christian”

    Thank you for pointing out that website Roger….that book sounds pretty interesting….can’t wait to read it.

  75. Roger (NZ) May 30th 2013

    Extract from ‘Principles for the Gathering of Believers’ pp 68-69

    http://gospelfellowships.net/principles-book/

    “..We have a great rest and happiness when as a Church we simply are the body and allow Jesus to be the glorious Head. The Head is able to direct the body as it wishes and so it should be with our Assemblies. The Lord should be able to direct us easily through His Holy Spirit without complaints and contention. Opposition and disobedience grieve the Holy Spirit. We have the example of the Apostle Paul and others in Antioch who were waiting before God with prayer and fasting, and then the Holy Spirit spoke to give them orders. This should serve as our example that God wants to continually give orders to the Church by the Spirit of Christ so that we can fulfill His good pleasure and will.

    So therefore, to look to Jesus Christ as the active present Head of
    the Church will bring much fruit to God. If we accept God’s heart
    and direction, to look to Christ and not men, then division, competition, debating and strivings would surely cease as Jesus Christ Himself is put in His rightful place.

    When we are gathering in meetings we are gathering together to
    communion and meet with the Godhead. Meetings of believers are
    not merely for knowledge and good fellowship. Rather the most
    important aspect of meeting is to meet with the living God…..”

  76. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    Wow, Roger, that IS good.

    Confirms what Father told me about the HEADLESS BODY is of more concern than His people not gathering in a church service.

  77. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    A HEADLESS BODY does not FUNCTION….it is DEAD.

  78. Holy spirit filled men told of these days long , long ago.
    How do you all think LOTT must have felt, being
    so surrounded by falsehoods and the love of many having waxed ICE COLD in sodom. All about men, cares and pleasures in life.
    about sodomy and when the transgressions reached the full
    sodom was destroyed.
    NIGH its end………….LOTT even tried to warn
    his own sons in laws time was up.
    AND they heard him not.
    SO HEAR THIS
    TIME is RUNNING OUT. SOME of you SEE this very clearly.
    JUDGMENT IS COMING . BUT before one thinks its coming upon the land……………THE JUDGMENT i speak of
    is the RIGHTEOUS judgement oF GOD
    upon HIS OWN HOUSE. THE SON of PERDITON will soon
    come against the saints. Americas LUKEWARM church
    WILL BE GIVEN THE CALL to REPENT
    to BUY GOLD TRIED in the FIRE.
    I SAY BUY IT AND SELL IT NOT.
    BUY IT AND SELL IT NOT.
    CHASTENING IS COMING UPON ALL , BUT ITS FOR OUR
    OWN WELFARE.
    SOON RFID WILL BE THE LAW OF THE LAND. THE SYSTEM is nigh ripe for the arrival of the dark one.
    ALL SIGNS are in place. Even the sign
    of people being without natural affection. YES, this is growing rampant in the land…….and WORSE those who call themselves
    HIS OWN…………….are supporting it and calling GOD LOVE.
    HISTORY IS REPEATING………………ONLY THIS TIME
    it aint one partcicular nation , or a few groups of nations
    ITS THE WORLD. THIS IS IT.
    STAND FIRM ON THE ROCK………………….all else is sinking sand. Be blessed.

  79. A LOUD AMEN ROGER……………..
    A LOUD AMEN.
    COME YE OUT FROM AMONG them
    BE YE HOLY…..GOD IS HOLY.
    HIS chastisments are so that we too are made partakers of HIS HOLINESS and not the world.
    EMBRACE the LIVING GOD…………not the dead lil gods
    EAT OF THE BREAD OF LIFE, not the broken cisterns hewn of men, and mixed the mans thoughts.
    COME YE OUT FROM ALL MENS KNOWLEDGE.
    GO BACK , GO BACK to just JESUS WORDS,
    KEEP THE GOSPLE SIMPLE as it was always meant to be.
    MOST of todays spirituaility is FOR SELF
    its NEW AGE in disguise . ITS mask can only be SEEN by the true lambs of GOD, who FOLLOW ONLY THE SHEPARD OF THE SHEEP.
    COME YE OUT of HER………………and
    LET the TRUE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT be poured into
    HUMBLE SOULS who do as they do FOR THE GLORY OF GOD
    and not glory from men. SEEK YE THE LORD NOW
    GO back to the FIRST LOVE NOW.
    TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

  80. thank you Andrew for your post, thank you pastor Richard Ing for your comment. 5 yrs ago my husband and I left with our 12 yrs old son for the poorest country in the western hemisphere, actually some of the statistics would make it the very poorest in the world. We arrived here with 6 suitcases 500 dollars a months support and God leading the way as we begin to care for the orphans and needy children of Haiti with nothing to ever carry us than our faith in a God that is beyond any human imagination. We have no training, no degrees, no real talent which would be normally required for such a task, but we’ve had God, he’s taught us all we’ve ever needed to know, he’s provided all we’ve ever needed, period. And I still so often sit in awe before His Majesty and I know we are so far from being an example of Christianity as our imperfections are so many, our shortcoming endless, our love weak. I have to constantly have to remind myself that each trials, each difficulty, each persecution is but a way for my Father to purify us and prune us into His image, but oh how far we are. How stubborn and distracted a people we are.

    There are orphans and widows everywhere, our western backyard is a mission field, if we really are interested in following in Jesus’ footstep. No one needs to go all the way to any foreign country, unfortunately there is too much distraction in our western culture, too much entertainment to notice the needs around us unless it comes and bites us personally taking us out of our comfort zone. Doing God’s business has become secondary to everything else we never get to it. Getting a bigger and more beautiful church building is more important than bringing the good news to the lost. And church is equivalent to entertainment rather than encounter with the living God.I bless the Lord on High for all who recognize His love, might and power and have given up their lives to follow in his footstep. I cry before God that those who are deceived to believe they serve him with their Christian masquerade will wake up from their sleep and be saved!

  81. Roger NZ
    Hi it did not take me long to find this i quote : from http://gospelfellowships.net/principles-book/

    “We don’t forbid the speaking of tongues,
    1121 neither do we force people to speak in tongues, *or insist that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation.
    We refute the view that the Holy Spirit is merely a kind of
    inspiration instead of being a personal member of the Godhead”

    How sad! They go so far and then dare to disagree with Peter in Acts when he said:-

    * ” And Cornelius shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    Forasmuch then as God gave them the like (ίσος – isoc -equal) gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    If we want revival (who does not) then we must command folk to get out of dead lukewarm Laodicean churches. Repent, get baptized (probably only been :”christened” as a baby – another non Bible practice) and receive the Holy Spirit as the bible commands.
    Pr Michael

  82. Andrew — Right on Brother !! Do you want Jesus back in your life … Sell all you have — give it to the poor — and follow Him !! The church needs to get out of the buildings and onto the streets! Thanks for posting … we are forwarding this to our mailing list. Linda

  83. My charity in USA, Melchizedek’s Treasure, funds street kid work in Uganda in 30 cities where all of our Street Pastors are former street kids themselves. Street kids live in exile because of abuse.
    They are mistreated, hated, raped, trafficked, and every ugly thing that can be imagined by man or devil is done to them. (They are available and who would care?) The majority are orphans. I get funding only through God using the newsletters I send out with their stories. THERE ARE NO CHURCHES THAT SUPPORT US. Only one pastor (individually).

  84. Roberta May 30th 2013

    Story No. 1–A few years back I was doing a job for a client who was in his 50s. He had retired already from a very lucrative job and had made the decision to give back to God and so was going to seminary to become a minister. In the course of our conversation, he said to me “Thank God there aren’t a lot of Jesus freaks at the seminary I’m going to.” Shocked and appalled hardly covers my feelings.

    Story No. 2–A friend that I have known for many years and who was steeped in new age beliefs decided she wanted to become a Christian minister. She went to a theological seminary in Denver and was finally ordained. At her ordination–the people from the church she attended as a child were so happy and gave her a new Bible for a gift, saying “We know this is your favorite book.” She didn’t believe in the Bible nor did she believe what was written about Jesus. As a matter of fact, she thought my biblical beliefs were not only archaic but naive, as we well.

    Summary: These are just two stories about two people that I knew. How many others are out there leading the sheep into a pit!!!!

  85. Roger (NZ) May 30th 2013

    Michael – I’m sure that once you have read the relevant principles/chapters on the Holy Spirit, ( principles 17-21) you will find the correct balance according to scripture – concerning the necessity for the baptism in, and empowering by, the Holy Spirit , together with the distribution of spiritual gifts, as determined by the Holy Spirit.

  86. FEEL GOOD churches have been gaining in popularity for quite awhile now. in this days society people do not want to be told that they need to live RIGHT. as long as the businessmen …excuse me…pastors just smooze the people and wishy washy them it is just fine to go to church… if a GODLY man like DAVID WILKERSON and some other were leading these large churches they would go from mega churches to mini churches ! persons will attend as long as they can go dressed in their longing clothes sipping coffee or fruity drinks and told how great they are !

  87. Roger (NZ) i quoted “We don’t ………….or insist that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation. ”
    This statement does not agree with scripture.
    .
    From principle 21 ” Many millions of Christians around the world, after being baptized in the Holy Spirit, have experienced a new dimension of power, particularly when witnessing to the unsaved” – This statement is at best weak, at worst wrong, because the “many millions” were NOT Christians untill and unless they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, Christian = anointed.
    I remind all that Jesus was Jesus of Nazareth untill the baptism by John then God Christos-ed Him, visibly audibly.!
    Jesus of Nazareth was at that point anointed by the Holy Ghost and power, He was now Jesus Christ (Acts 10 38) now His ministry began, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because…..”
    How dare we we presume to claim we are better than He and can do without the anointing and yet claim to be anointed ones – Christians? John the baptist was told “upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining he is the son of God. it applies to us as much to Him
    The many millions refered to in the principle 21 were endeavoring in their own strength – not the power of God.
    This is the reason for the failing Laodicean church today, they Like Paul, pre Ananias who told him what he had to do, have scales over their eyes, no eyesalve that they may see.
    Pr Michael

  88. Warrior Bride May 30th 2013

    GOOD WORD, but I would say maybe ONCE a week and 1 HOUR service, lol he forgot the BAKE SALES on the Sabbath ( we are NOT to buy or sell) in the HOUSE of God and our COFFEE BISTROS , ha I like the line “our best life now ? lol we know who that comes from, ha ha ha How about how everyone has a ipad and the BIBLE IS NON-EXISTANT anymore with the screens showing the words of the bible ?
    Amen sis the CONFIRMATION that Abba gave me for 2013 !!! the POOR the WIDOW and the ORPHANS !! THANKS !

    PREPARE, PRAY AND PREACH THE GOSPEL -A WORD FOR 2013
    Dec 27th,, 2012

    This is what the Father gave me to share with you for 2013 is right and the number 13 is symbolic for REBELLION, BACKSLIDING and APOSTACY!

    In these last days, the unsaved and even the lukewarm and carnal Christian will backslide, rebel and turn away from the Father for their OWN fleshly desires, apostasy, falling away from the faith, false doctrines, more false teachers and false prophets will be coming on the forefront, churches becoming more loveless, more worldly, more compromising, men pleasers instead of God pleasers. No obedience, but arrogance and pride, thinking that they are ‘god’s, taking Yeshua’s Glory for themselves, lovers of money and SELF. Adding and taking away from the word, trying to promote all religions to come together in UNITY, accepting Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, all coming together, which ALL have the same FALSE spirit, and leading man astray.

    We MUST be on our guard, and ask for DISCERNMENT in these last days, know what the bible says, for there may be a time in the future, we won’t be able to even have a bible in the USA, it may become a communist nation with the Anti-Christ arriving on the scene, and we HAVE to KNOW the word to give an answer to EVERYONE FOR THE REASON why WE BELIEVE and be able to explain that to the other religions. NOW IS THE TIME to get PREPARED for there WILL be people asking WHY things are happening and are you wasting time, attention to SELF or do you care MORE about souls?

    Our mission SHOULD be about our Fathers’ business, NOT about secular stuff. Do you think that Jesus is PLEASED with what you SAY, or your ACTIONS, and your ATTITUDE? Do you ACT like Yeshua ? Is your heart and soul walking in the FRUITS of the SPIRIT? Are your days spent in prayer and your free time ministering to others, because if it’s NOT, then you are not using the time that Abba has GIVEN to you WISELY, to DO what HE has CALLED YOU to do! Your life is NOT YOUR OWN, if you had just a month or two left on this earth, before Ha’Mashiach (Christ) return, how would you LIVE? That is how we should be THINKING right now, our mentality in some believers, have been SLACK and LETHARGIC and Yeshua is GRIEVED ! He is WATCHING EVERYTHING that we do and say and is it pleasing to HIM? The things that you watch or listen to, YESHUA IS CALLING US OUT OF THE WORLD, to be SET APART AND SEPARATE !

    Are you helping the poor, homeless, widows and orphans? Are you doing everything that you can do, the WILL of the Father and NOT your will and way? We have fallen short, myself included brethren, this is a EXORTATION and a ENCOURAGING word to get our lives in ORDER! For we are in the last days, whether you know it or not, those that have a EAR to HEAR, LISTEN to the mouthpiece of the Father, PREPARE, PRAY and PREACH the GOSPEL the Father says, this is what Yeshua REQUIRES from YOU! NO MORE TIME TO WASTE, TIME IS SHORT, WE MUST BE ABOUT OUR FATHER’S BUSINESS ! Seek HIS face and FAST, to see WHERE Abba wants to lead you and OBEY His VOICE. Let GO of the FLESHLY PLEASURES for the time is at hand and we are leaving this earth SOON!

    ASK yourself, have you DONE ALL that you can for Yeshua? Is He well pleased with what you are doing with HIS vessel, his HOLY TEMPLE, His body? Are you walking HOLY and RESPECTING and REVERANCING his TEMPLE ? Are you taking CARE of it ? YOUR LIFE IS NOT OUR OWN ! You were put on this earth to PRAISE and WORSHIP the Father, to put Him FIRST, in ALL your ways, to be that Godly EXAMPLE to the unsaved. Does your life REFLECT Yeshua Ha”Mashiach (JESUS CHRIST)? Can people SEE Abba in YOU? Let’s get back to what is really IMPORTANT and STOP wasting time and put it to better USE. Your prayer should be ‘SEND ME, FATHER’ instead of send someone else. Our life is NOT our own, we LIVE to Glorify and Magnify His LOVE to a lost and dying world, that are in darkness and are in DEPERATE NEED for Yeshua. They are LOOKING for His LIGHT, do they see that light in YOU? Does your life EXEMPLIFY the Father?

    This is what we need to ask ourselves, meditate on this, brethren,and ask yourselves these questions, for when it is all said and done, all we want to HEAR is “Well done, good and FAITHFUL servant” NOTHING ELSE MATTERS ! We wil be judged on what we did while we were here on this earth and were we OBEDIENT to EVERYTHING that Yeshua has ASKED of us and that will DETERMINE our crowns and what nations that we will govern over and rule and rein and even our own SALVATION !. “Much is GIVEN , MUCH IS REQUIRED” Let our life be a life be pleasing to Abba, our praise a SWEET fragrance, and do what is IMPORTANT to HIM, that is ALL that we should care about right now, SELAH ! Shalom

    Janine Henschel
    Sword Of The Spirit Ministries, Int’l

  89. Warrior Bride May 30th 2013

    A PROPHETIC WARNING TO THE CHURCH !!!
    April 14, 2012

    For the time will come, when you will war amongst yourselves, but will NOT be united in mind, soul and spirit, or in one accord, for if you tear at each other, how will you win souls? If the world sees you at each other’s throats, will you not lose your witness? There is much HYPROCRACY going on in the body of Christ. Where is the your example of ME in YOU??? You strife and war against each other, gossip, backbite, jealousys, but where is the LOVE shown amongst each other, so that the world will see that you are DIFFERENT than them??? You say one thing and do another your words do NOT convey my HEART! There is NO INTEGRETY in the body of Christ, that is LYING, not keeping your word, LYERS will have their place in hell ! I am so GRIEVED BY THIS !!!

    WHERE ARE MY TRUE FOLLOWERS??? You have lost many, with your words, which you are IDLE and EMPTY! your HEARTS ARE not MY HEART and MY WAYS ! But you grumble and complain, WHERE IS YOUR WITNESS??? Some have lost their way and have NOT SERVED ME! You CONTINUE to do the things that do NOT PLEASE ME !!! Where are your values and morals? Who do you put FIRST??? Do you seek me with all of your heart? How do you expect to receive my blessing when you cause strife and division? do you THINK I am there? Do you THINK that my hand will be with YOU??? What you sow, you will REAP!

    I HATE dissention and division amongst my brethren! My house has become a den of THIEVES! No longer are my words being spoken, you ADD and TAKE AWAY from my word and you don’t think that I will not JUDGE YOU !!! For my presence, will I take away from these churches who proclaim to know me, but their hearts are FAR FROM ME !!!

    WAKE UP CHURCH !!! For time is short and I will no longer ALLOW THIS IN MY HOUSE! WOE BE TO YOU who cause my sheep to stumble, for all your transgressions, you WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE!!! WOE TO YOU CHURCH, FOR YOU ARE FAR FROM ME, ALL IS VANITY !!! You think MORE of yourselves, than helping others, Are you taking care of my widows and orphans that I have called you to? Are you being my HANDS and FEET? WHERE IS YOUR FIRST LOVE ???

    MY CHURCH HAS FAILED ME !!! For they do NOT KNOW WHO THEY SERVE ! I am hardly mentioned in your busy schedule in my house, I have become the LAST THING instead of the FIRST THING in your services, if I am even mentioned AT ALL !!!! You have become more like a secular coffeehouse instead of MY HOUSE being your FIRST PRIORITY !!! WHERE DO I FIT IN??? You have barely squeezed me into your bake sales and your retreats, but you have LEFT ME OUT COMPLETELY !!! Oh my heart is so saddened, You go about your daily lives with no REGARD to even THINKING OF ME ??? I am so GRIEVED, my church has NO HOLINESS !!! NO WORSHIP ! You look and act like the world and my heart is BROKEN with what is going on in my HOUSE of Worship !!!

    You pretend to KNOW me, but its ALL a LIE !!! For you DON’T KNOW ME AT ALL !!! You DECEIVE, YOU STEAL from me, your leaders are drunkards and fornicators, and you do this ALL IN MY NAME ! You CONIVE, you take my GLORY for yourselves and my name is NOT EVEN MENTIONED !!! YOu are PUFFED UP, ARROGANT and PRIDEFUL and yet you think that my spirit will be WITH YOU ??? Oh, how you have taken my spirit and TRAMPLED it under your feet!

    For these churches that do not obey me, my JUDGEMENT is COMING !!! No longer will you deceive and lie to my people and think that I will NOT DEAL WITH YOU !!! WOE BE TO YOU, WHO ARE CAUSIING MY SHEEP TO STUUMBLE ! For my WRATH will come upon you and your church that you have ressurrected in MY NAME -Yet I am NO WHERE TO BE FOUND ! WOE be to you church, for I will NO LONGER ALLOW this HYPROCRICY !!!!

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, REPENT AND TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS and I will have MERCY on you, but if you do NOT, MY WRATH WILL BE COMING, VENGENCE IS MINE, saith the Lord.

    I had a dream about India and that there were going to be NATURAL DISASTERS going to come to that nation and that Abba is cleansing this land and allowing them to REPENT and to receive Yeshua as their Savior Please PRAY FOR SALVATIONS there.

    The Mouthpiece of Yeshua,
    Janine Henschel
    Sword Of The Spirit Ministries, Int’l

  90. Boydbob May 30th 2013

    The church is bound up by political correctness and tax exemption rules as to what they can say, but when they were taken before the Jewish council, “Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.”

    I believe there are many people who are looking for other true believers. They want to gather, not for a ‘christian rock’ worship service that will make them feel good, but to worship the Lord Himself and to feel His presence.
    They don’t want a message that tells them how wonderful they are and what great things they can do, but one that tells them how wonderful God is and what He wants us to do.

    I haven’t see any evidence of the Spirit of God in the Mega-churches, but I have seen it in small home fellowships. I haven’t seen much of the anointing of the Spirit in Mega-churches, but I have seen it in small assemblies.
    The early church met from house to house. Then they went out and preached the Gospel in the markets and streets and anywhere there were people to hear.

    It took me a while to understand that the church is not about buildings and tax deductions. Inviting someone to “come to a church” building, is NOT the same as declaring the Gospel to them.
    When the Jewish temple became an idol, God moved out and let it and its rituals be destroyed by the heathen. We need to beware of making idols of our buildings and systems because God will destroy them also.
    The early church wanted to stay in Jerusalem, but God allowed persecution to scatter them everywhere. Then they obeyed the last words of Jesus to His church, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

  91. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    Pr Michael

    In Matthew, Jesus was the Christ….(anointed) in His mother’s womb….Just as John the Baptist was.

    Jesus and John the Baptist did not RECEIVE the POWER of the Holy Spirit until AFTER they spent time in the WILDERNESS.

    Jesus received Power in Luke 4:14…DUNAMIS/dynamis

  92. Roger (NZ) May 30th 2013

    Michael – I have no desire to argue with you over the content of any book – especially one that I have not yet read, as I stated before.

    I do understand that the Revival Centres believe and teach that unless a born again one speaks in tongues, he/she is not saved – yet I find in scripture (1 Cor.12) that Paul very clearly disagrees with this, and so do I.

    It has also been pointed out to me that you disagreed with the doctrinal statement of gfa http://www.gfa.org/about/what-we-believe/ yet they clearly include, their belief in:
    – The deity of Lord Jesus,
    – The truth of our triune Godhead, of Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit,
    – The indwelling Holy Spirit

    Yet you say: “..I have read the gfa.org doctrinal Statement and can find nothing that designates this group as Christian!..”

    Again, we disagree..

  93. No problem Roger, we answer to the Lord, not each other.
    Maybe i should just have said gfa imply the Holy Ghost baptism is an “extra”
    BTW have you read Andrew’s testimony here?:-

    http://www.revivalschool.com/%E2%80%9Cask-jesus-into-your-heart%E2%80%9D/

    RCI are not alone Also we do not believe we are the only ones. but we do believe we have the salvation pattern right..PTL
    Storm. So Jesus did not need the Power of the Spirit to resist satan’s temptation?
    I know I did nothing righteous ’till after i received the Holy Ghost baptism and I know God is no respecter of persons.
    Before that infilling i was taught by “Christian churches” i was saved! that teaching was incorrect.
    Pr Michael

  94. Lightning Storm May 30th 2013

    I’m just quoting what the word says.

    Jesus was filled/FULLof the Holy Spirit after His water baptism and before He was led to the wilderness, but the words dunamis/dynamis (POWER) are not used when speaking about Jesus until AFTER time spent in the wilderness.

    Everything that God promises us has the potential for INCREASE.

  95. IN hIM DWLSS ALL THE FULNESS OF gOD BODILY AND OF hIS FULNESS HAVE WE ALL RECIEVED. END OF STORY

  96. apologies for the caps, my son spoke to me and i accidentally hit the wrong keys and return whilst paying attention to him.
    “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”
    and “And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.”
    Pr Michael

  97. Neville May 30th 2013

    I couldn’t agree more Andrew. My family and I departed from big church, when the new upgrade was supossedly a better way for the church to become more missional. I do not sense God needs a flash church to make people or it more missional. Thats a trap. For over 3 years the Lord has led me in a ministry to the homeless in Adelaide which has its focus on presenting the Gospel in the open in a parkland (including hell as a consequence) with love. Since I have been forced way out of my comfort zone I see many things very differently.. I found out find out very quickly, that you cannot give what you do not have, and what you have must be the real thing, you can fool no one, not even the poor! So you need to learn what scripture says and exactly what salvation means. My fear is that many in churches (and I was one) do not know how to share there faith with conviction. But Jesus gave us the command to reach the lost with the good news. How does that work in our modern seeker friendly churches? I believe the enemy is happy with the system we have designed because we become comfortable and risk becoming useless to share the message of Christ with boldness for fear embarassement.

  98. Michael,
    Nothing personal taken here on your comment.

    The problem I see is that it is easy to take a small segment of some doctrinal statement and not have all the facts and come to some conclusion that is unfair in its judgement.

    No matter whose life we all look at, I am sure we can all come away and find that there is not a person on this earth who is doctrinally perfect.

    What will Jesus say when the men stand before Him?

    35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

    Jesus said:

    Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

    It is so easy to dig up dirty laundry on every single minister in the world.

    If your looking for the perfect man and ministry, “you will probably never find it”.

    To be honest Michael you should at least take some time and read this mans testimony before quickly jumping to some conclusion.

    There is a place for pointing out heresy and doctrinal errors, but I think everyone is starting to carry this to an extreme level that was never intended by the Lord.

    If you put every man and woman under the christian microscope I am sure none of us would pass inspection.

    God has not called many mighty to this walk but he has called the rejects in life, with all their flaws and imperfections.

    I am so glad the Lord was not looking for perfect humans to enter Heaven but those who are meek and lowly, simple people who needed a Savior.

    Anyway Michael in this case I feel you are rushing to a judgement call without looking at the entire picture.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  99. Gordon Neil May 30th 2013

    Dirt is the Problem! The most dangerous THING (THE THING) on the planet is PEOPLE! Satan is trying to prove his case One Day At A Time and that is going to work out Great for the Pleasures of God – the Few.

    In our local newspaper the other day, a race car driver and his support crew was washing, cleaning every part of the car …the headlines, ‘Dirt shows me down.’

    It is very interesting to know we are made of dirt. So, God can take dirt and out of it comes the Clean. Stand Up pastors have a remedy. If a man is of the Romans 8 Church he knows Clean. They undergo inspections, white glove, regularly. So, anything that moves or that is stationary that claims Holiness, Righteousness, Saved, Callings, Authority …pastors, a minimum of the task to receive living need benefits is to be an ‘INSPECTOR’. All Leaders, that are truly Leaders, inspect the works being done and will know the fruits by inspection starting where and how the Christian’s Claiming live their daily lives. The Inspections are not all inclusive but must be a starting point, a on-going work of Blessed Assurance.

    I have seen and know some of the people of the dirt, coming out of ditch, coming out of the mud by following Jesus become Clean in all their affairs. So, a pastor must spend a lot of time inspecting the member’s homes and cars …anything they use and own and give. Now these inspections are unannounced and if they fail the inspections ……..a report goes public to the all those claiming Cleanliness. This is applied to every home that the members claiming to be Christians up to and including 3 to 5 years. Also, there must be a dress code for women and men. I think if one knows the Word they know about the rags most Christian wear and sport.

    Most Christian are so stuck on themselves ……….it is so dirty it makes God sick.

  100. Kelling May 30th 2013

    Look up the Synagogue of Satan in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. There is a very interesting article by D. Thomas Lancaster in Messiah Journal from First Fruits of Zion issue 113, Spring 2013/5773. It gives the history of the early church under persecution from Emperor Domitian and explains historicaly this Synagogue of Satan. Do you think we have to go backwards to Pentacoast or forward to Tabernacles in the near future? Do you really understand what shadows means in Hebrew? Biblos is a good site to use for translations to get the meaning of the word as scripture should not contradict itself. Yah says there is a way that seems right to men but leads to death. Please choose life, shalom in Yashua; Dr. David.

  101. What I believe is that the above article, for many, perhaps even the majority, is their first step in truly having an understanding of who the Church is now and in fact has always been. It has always been the remnant. The institution of church, whether pre or post reformation, was never the Church yet it housed many of them for many complex reasons. It has taken the great falling away for people to truly realize the truth about an institution, not to be confused with God’s true Church, that has now come to bear the fruit of its vine. Only by abiding and clinging and being grafted into the true vine, can one truly belong to the Church, the Body of Christ which has been the same yesterday, today and forever and always bears the fruit of it’s vine…….bro Frank

  102. I love the books by Frank Viola “Reimagining Church”, and “Finding Organic Church” and “From Eternity to Here”. These books give some insight on how to break out of traditional church and why we should seek to make Jesus the true Head of His Body.

  103. 100% Zululander May 30th 2013

    Micheal your statements regarding GFA are most concerning.
    To make such a public statement requires that you back it up thoroughly with scripture.
    You need to see the seriousness of your statement.
    Have you received any of the mail & information on them & it’s leader? What information have you got other that the web site? What on the website is not christian?

  104. Randy McCoy May 30th 2013

    Andrew,

    I contend that Christianity was not derailed over the types, locations, or even so much about the activities of our meetings, but rather the subtle transition from loving God, loving people, and making disciples, to where most folks have now been led to believe that Christianity is primarily about just making meetings.

  105. Paul FC May 30th 2013

    Richard B. W. Ing, Senior Pastor……Dear Sir I read with great interest your post but sort of ran out of steam half way through. Thank you anyway, you made some interesting and true observations, yet there are still pockets of revival in the Church even in the west.

  106. Paul FC May 30th 2013

    For what it’s worth, my observations are that there are many posts here that are quite harsh to say the least. Yes we know the Church is a mess in the west, but I still believe and know that Father God is gracious- Mercy triumphs over judgement. We have a Godly pastor and we are seeking revival in our Church and we do believe that it will come.

    My feeling is that many here are swinging too far the other way in judgement. It is almost as if we are trying to outdo each other with fiery prophetic, watchman rhetoric. God is indeed gracious and I am coming to know Him more in that way. Just spending time in His presence. It is His presence that we need, that is where we get all the answers.

  107. Neville May 30th 2013

    We have not lost it
    Satan has managed to hide it by training the leadres in the churches overf the last 2000 years

  108. Neville May 30th 2013

    We have not lost it. Satan has trained the leaders over t he last 2000 years so that they hide it thinking they are doing the right thing.
    Otherwise it wold not break out in the west occasionally as it is now doing amongst the youth in some areas.

    This is why Satan has to have people removed from churches who do follow Jesus as they may pollute his structure he has made the church into in many areas.

    God has not done it leaving only Satan.
    If Christians were to take up their authority ad remove Satan we would have Christianity back. But he has persuaded the church to ignore him and believe they cannot do this.
    The roots of Christianity in the church has been destroyed and replaced by an indifferent watered down version that is powerless and almost godless at times in what it does so it will fall unless it repents of what it has done.

  109. Neville May 30th 2013

    God does not change so swe can say it is there . We have not lost it. Satan has trained the leaders over t he last 2000 years so that they hide it thinking they are doing the right thing.
    Otherwise it wold not break out in the west occasionally as it is now doing amongst the youth in some areas.

    This is why Satan has to have people removed from churches who do follow Jesus as they may pollute his structure he has made the church into in many areas.

    God has not done it leaving only Satan.
    If Christians were to take up their authority ad remove Satan we would have Christianity back. But he has persuaded the church to ignore him and believe they cannot do this.
    The roots of Christianity in the church has been destroyed and replaced by an indifferent watered down version that is powerless and almost godless at times in what it does so it will fall unless it repents of what it has done.

  110. God is unimaginably powerful and wants to demonstrate His Power through us – His Body here on earth…

    As we yield ourselves to Him we become conduits of His Power flowing out to others around us…

    All this is of Him, we just submit and receive His Power flowing through us…

    His Power includes His Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness & Temperance…

    His Power also includes His Supernatural Miracles (signs and wonders following the preaching of the word) which He works through us in accordance to His own will and pleasure…

    We do not control God, He controls us…

    As He lives through us we bear fruit for His Glory – fruit of character and also fruit of salvation – new souls coming to know Him…

    If there is a problem the problem is with our individual submission to Him…

    Once we are all individually submitted to Him He will then “line us up” in teams to work together for His Glory (individual submission to Him enables corporate submission to each other under Him as He establishes and directs – Authority in His Church)…

    This process has already commenced and we will see it’s consummation before He returns to reign in Jerusalem – we will see the Church expressing the Manifold Wisdom of God in this age – each doing its assigned part – before He returns to reign in Jerusalem… :-)

  111. Averyl May 30th 2013

    A letter to the Editor of our daily newspaper highlights a major stumbling block to evangelism.
    Google The Taranaki Daily News and click on the home page where you will find it.

    Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

  112. The Lord God is not going to fix the protestant churches , He is leaving them. Just like He did with the catholic churches. Most people will carry on without Jesus as Lord , some will follow and obey Jesus. Don’t call it His Church anymore. Those people that obey The Father are Christ’s church. How many people stay when they know Jesus is not running things? They do not love Jesus with a love above all other things. The Lord is leaving to find out if you love Him more. It is enough that we have Jesus .Jesus will build His church , we are to love Him and do what He says.

  113. the end of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION IS SOON COMING to and end…THANK GOD. Then the true Church …… THE ROYAL COMMUNITY……will arise the way Christ intended it to be…as already patterned in the early Church, it is happening as I write this and will be manifesting soon all over the earth and you can read about this in the book RETURN http://www.allfortheprize.com when we do it right it will all work like it is suppose to hang in there it is changing fast FOR THE GOOD

  114. Summary: These are just two stories about two people that I knew. How many others are out there leading the sheep into a pit!!!!

    ROBERTA, new age has long planned this out.
    they send out memebers to infiltrate churches
    and sadly they love to have it so.
    IT WILL NOT get BETTER in churches……ONLY WORSE.
    TILL JESUS COME evil will wax only worse and worse.
    A new age concept that is infiltrating many churches
    is also to break down the church
    and get the community focused on people andgood works
    RATHER THAN TRUTH , then people and good works.
    MOST books of today have new age in them in parts.
    COME YE OUTTA DEM NASTY EVIL SATANIC writings of men.
    who have mixed lies in with truth and the fallling aways ONLY massively is getting worse.
    BUT its VERY, and HIGHLY deceptive.
    FOR IT COMES with GOOD WORKS, UNITY, PUBLIC works
    Doing good unto others. BUT IT DENYS the ONE WORK
    needed for salvation.
    and insteads preaches and focuses on works which end only
    in slavation nation. COME YE OUTTA of all books, drop all.
    AND PICK UP ONLY BIBLE. STRONG. STRONG delusion is coming and many christains are seeing it as
    AN ENLIGHTENMENT in which many souls will be saved.
    IT was NEVER WRITTEN about a BIG END TIME ENLIGHTENMENT
    ONLY A BIG END TIME DELUSOIN.
    DO all withe a whole heart love of TRUTH
    from pure hearts in CHRIST, preach HOW the EARLY CHURCH
    preached and CHANGE NOT FROM THAT DOCTRINE
    or SNARED all shall be who does. amen.

  115. Marilyn Crow May 30th 2013

    Christianity from this Article, Andrew Strom says is `take up your cross,` `a life like Jesus,` `a life lived with Jesus as Lord.` (PTL)To recognise it is one thing but to say that it is `lost,` means you are looking in the wrong place. The false man-made system has been & will be operating business as usual, until God judges it in the whole `Babylonian World System.`

    As Roger & others have said, Christ is the Head of the Body & He is not surprised, He knows man`s heart of pride that builds its own grandeous monuments to their so called achievements.

    But the right place to look for true believers is to first look to the Head. `Holding fast to the Head…` (not a system) & here we will hear –
    `I will build My ekklesia, My body of believers.
    I will never leave you nor forsake you.
    I will send you the Holy Spirit.
    I will teach you to discern the trickery of men & their deceitful scheming.
    I will enable every joint to supply causing the Body to grow up.
    I will friut you with My character.
    I will teach you to disciple others.
    I will give you a heart for the damaged, lost, outcasts.
    I will give you father/mother mentors who will not lord it over you.
    I will keep you from stumbling & present you faultless in My Father`s presence.
    I will personally come for you & gather you all & take you to My throne where in a new body that I will give you, we will dwell together in eternal bliss.

    So let`s not be discouraged by looking at man`s counterfeit, but encourage each other, (all the more as we see the day drawing near) & by holding fast to the Head – The Lord Jesus Christ.

    Marilyn.

  116. “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. “Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! “But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” (Daniel 12 NASB)

    I want to share this scripture with Randall Lowry…

    Have a think Randall about the portions which I’ve emphasised above…

    This shows me that the righteous will be strong until the end…

    Their power being broken speaks to me of them being put to death (strong in faith to the end)…

    Not being a pale reflection of Christ…

    I hate it when people speak of the Church of Jesus Christ in a light which intimates that She will be powerless and ineffective to the end…

    Are you speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ – every Blood bought Saint – in this light Randall?

    If you are then I believe scripture disagrees with you…

    Could you please clarify your position?

  117. Marilyn Crow May 30th 2013

    Andrew Strom rightly says Christianity is that `Jesus is Lord, `& `we are to take up our cross.` And millions around the world are doing just that. They know that Jesus` sacrifice is the BASIS of their being freed from God`s judgment & that good deeds then flow out from Christ`s heart within.

    And they importantly know that good deeds are NOT the BASIS of their salvation.

    Thus when we read
    `For I was hungry, thirsty, a stranger … & you did not….` depart from Me, says the Lord. (Matt. 25: 31- 46)

    Here we see a contradiction. The BASIS of our salvation is Christ`s finished work on the cross yet here it says as long as you `visited My brethren in prison, gave them something to eat…..etc`
    ALL RELIGIONS would agree with that. Has God changed His requirement for salvation. Definitely not. So let`s read what God says in context.

    `But when the Son of Man comes in His glory with all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne, & all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him….` (Matt. 25: 31 & 32)

    Whoa. Not the Body of Christ, but the NATIONS. God has 3 groups, remember, that He is dealing with over time. (The Body of Christ/Israel/the NATIONS) And these NATIONS were judged on how they treated the Jews (Jesus` brethren) that will be persecuted in the tribulation. (Matt. 24: 19-21)

    The prophet Joel also says clearly –

    `For …I will gather all the NATIONS & bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people & My inheritance, Israel,…….)

    So let`s becareful how we present the BASIS of our Salvation -Christ`s work on the cross. To muddle that with a judgment based on good deeds only muddies the waters of truth in people`s minds.

    Right Biblical interpretation (& everyday common sense) is `Who is speaking to whom…`

    So let`s drink of the clear, clean waters of Truth.

    Marilyn

  118. the messiah said,he that believed in him the same works that he did upon earth that man would do also.this makes a liar out of all the churches on earth today.by the year 325 the faith had almost been lost.the fathers name was forgotten as well as the messiahs name and message.the gates of hell did not prevail over the church.it backslid and fell away.the messiah asked the question,when I return shall I find faith on earth.that question is still relivent more so today than ever.the doctoring of paul is the poision as his message goes against the words of the messiah and the apostles.grace has replaced all works from repenting to striving to enter in the kingdom/barney

  119. Mariel May 31st 2013

    Donna, maybe it DOES take a rocket scientist to figure some of this out. I live in a town where there are many “rocket scientists” and other kinds of scientists, and there is a high proportion of not just church attendance but reliance on the true Lord, with prayers for salvation and redemption. I’m just kidding about it may need a rocket scientist, but the rocket scientists of today, at least here, are pretty interested in the Lord.

    I don’t care for the mega-churches either. At a funeral today we had so many attendees that they had to use the Methodist Church as well as our church to get everyone in, and everyone was praying together. We were connected by closed circuit TV, of course. Hundreds of people from all over town praying together and, I think, meaning it.

  120. I have a page in my Web site called “Can the Church Survive”. In that page, I say that if Christ doesn’t return soon, the Christian Faith will die out. I present several reasons why. The situation you describe is real, and it is another reason why.

  121. Gary B Hi tx for being gentle with me, and your comments
    FWIW
    First Mark 4 34
    So in the scripture it you quote:-
    Food is the manna from heaven, Word of Life – man shall not live by bread alone.
    drink – the Samaritan woman at the well living water
    Stranger, the Church is like a modern Ark, taking us from this world to the next, we become His Body.
    Naked, no covering for our sin, the white robe of His righteousness
    Sick, Salvation – complete healing – body, soul and Spirit (Gr σῴζω sozo)
    Prison, form death to life
    To paraphrase, we are to do the works of God and cease from our own.
    This does not mean we do not need to give natural things for the poor, hungry, and destitute!
    However when we give in this way do we can not earn brownie points, lets rather heed Math 6 whole chapter
    Many boast of their natural giving and ask those outside the church to give.. Many of these have the “Ask Jesus into your heart” salvation doctrine, and often bask in their good works whilst spiritually their converts are starving. Self righteousness prevails, God calls it filthy rags. Self righteousness i believe is an insidious sin, and hard to be recognized by its victims. It is a symptom of this topic “we’ve lost Christianity” .
    Pr Michael

  122. I believe more and more every day that the time is near, that all will hear HIM and be startled. Those who truly believe will get down on their knees and thank HIM for keeping HIS promise to return to take us to heaven and then to live with HIM on this earth for a thousand years. I can’t wait until there is no war, no sickness, no pain, no animosity, no tears, until the end and HE kicks out those who don’t bow to the almighty Heaven on earth, no disease, plenty of food for all, fish in the ocean that don’t glow or are filled with chemicals…it will be hard to think that it can get better…but it will and we will have a mansion in heaven with no mortgage and we will always have a smile or our faces thanks to HIM who loves us unconditionally…and we will feel that love, every moment for all eternity. Praise the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!

  123. Is it that we’ve lost Christianity or that few of us ever had real Christianity in the first place??? Except for the great revivals, and their spill over into parts of the Church for a few decades after, this so called, Real Christianity, has seldom existed since early in the second century. But few Christians will give this point of view an honest hearing because it just couldn’t be true! Why people think that way is beyond me, they must never have read the Bible which clearly shows first century faith and practice to be practically totally different than what has been going on most of the time for some 1800+ years. Mostly, a shallow religious substitute is all that has existed during all those centuries and now the spill over from Azusa Street is gone in all but a few lives. Only the promised coming judgments seems likely to cause real questioning to begin and the possibility then for recovery of what has been long lost, of actually seeing people believe what the Bible says. But I fear the majority will instead lose their “faith”.

  124. Andrew May 31st 2013

    Wow, Logan.

    Quite an insight.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  125. fabakary May 31st 2013

    The craving, desires of the physical body can be a great hindrance to the inward man though they may not be sinful in themselves. With the wrong concepts of avoiding a “self effort” type of Christianity , many time we get incline to the extreme effortless submission to the Craving of the body. Self effort is the wrong method of putting the body under subjection ; but submitting to the cravings of the body is to remain powerless Christians. The body will feel tired to have quality devotion, feel weak to fast , will love to eat and eat etc. The emotions of the body will oppose the desire to forgive, love etc. One of the work of Holy spirit in us, is to quicken our mortal bodies. That is to strengthen our mortal bodies to the will of the holy spirit. The scripture spoke of Holiness not only of our spirit but also our Bodies. The Body is the temple of the holy ghost. One of the means of bringing our bodies under subjection is praying in the Holy ghost. At the Garden, the mortal body of our lord became weak, and to bring it under subjection to the will of the holy spirit, He prayed agonizing until droplets of blood like water . This was how His body was put under subjection. The body that was weak became quicken by the spirit to do the will of God. The body is like a Car, the oil the holy spirit, and prayer is like one of the Gear that activates the oil burning and the Car moving. If our mortal bodies are daily quicken by the holy ghost, we will find ourselves just doing good because we are good. We will find ourselves loving our neighbors not out of duty but because it has become our nature. One of the sign of the end time told by our Lord is “hating one another “this speak of broken homes, increased in divorce, divisions etc but those that submit to the working of the holy ghost will do exploit in Love. You can read the whole bible from cover to cover every day and still remain carnal, unforgiving, hateful, lustful etc unless you bring the body under subjection by the power of the holy ghost. If we are control by the cravings of this body, eat, drink and be merry etc we will not have the power to walk in Love and holiness. Agonizing in the spirit is one of the way to put this body under subjection to be a vechile of expression for the will of God.

  126. Michael,

    I read over your comments to everyone and was wondering from what you wrote:

    Do you believe if a person does not have the Baptism with the evidence of tongues, that those without this experience will go to heaven?

    GaryB

  127. watchful May 31st 2013

    oh amen fabakery, bless you for sharing that revelation……..so this is why Jesus at Gethsemane said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and told His sleepy disciples to pray, like as He was, in order to overcome that temptation. It seems there comes a time that as our fleshly nature dies, even the things we consider to be good dies with it, things like self-discipline etc, and we need to transfer our dependence for those things from self to the Holy Spirit. A good instruction there brother, hallelujah!

  128. watchful May 31st 2013

    Maybe this will help with the subject of tongues:

    1Cr 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.

    1Cr 12:5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.

    1Cr 12:6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

    1Cr 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

    1Cr 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

    1Cr 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

    1Cr 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

    1Cr 12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

    1Cr 12:12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ…………………………………………………………………………..

    1Cr 12:28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

    1Cr 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

    1Cr 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

  129. fabakary May 31st 2013

    Amen and yes watchful, praying in the holy ghost will put under subjection the Flesh or body that refuse to submit to the will of God. The holy ghost bring forth the nature and we do good because it had become our nature; It is like we become the fruits itself.It is indeed a daily walk. Stay bless

  130. Barry Schmidt May 31st 2013

    While I am in full agreement with much if this article I am not certain condemning planting churches in the suburbs of Western cities is an accurate call.

    While reaching the poor is absolutely essential to the commission of the church the financially poor in most inner downtown western cities consists of less than 10% of the population while 90% of the financially poor as well as the spiritually poor live in the suburbs.

    Jesus always goes to where lost people are. To condemn suburban church plants is to condemn Jesus.

  131. Watchful,

    What you shared is dealing with the “gift of tongues” and interpretation.

    The Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues is a complete different subject and experience.

    A person has to have the Baptism to know and understand the difference.

    With all of this in mind I think that a person can be saved without the experience of the Baptism, and it
    ministers confusion to those who do not have it when people tell them they are not saved.

    Here is a good example of a man who preached the scriptures and knew the Lord but at that time did not have the Baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

    Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.

    It says he taught accurately the things of the Lord but he only knew of John’s baptism.

    GaryB

  132. You are so right! I am blessed to belong to a church who tells people we are a hospital for hurting people! We welcome all and minister love and hope in Jesus! The world needs to see the LOVE of Jesus in us in order to want HIM!

  133. Lightning Storm May 31st 2013

    Thank you GaryB for revealing that scripture to us.

    That is an excellent point.

  134. Lightning Storm May 31st 2013

    Amen Kris!

  135. watchful May 31st 2013

    —“With all of this in mind I think that a person can be saved without the experience of the Baptism, and it
    ministers confusion to those who do not have it when people tell them they are not saved.”—-

    I agree with what you said here in the above quote Gary. The verses I posted show that not all who are saved will necessarily speak in tongues.

  136. GaryB

    May i kindly say to you that at the time of anyone getting saved that that is a “work” of the Holy Spirit in it’s self and that it is impossible not to be baptised in the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation (born again) As said it’s a “work” of the Holy Spirit.

    And we see in Acts 18:25, that the man only knew of the baptism of John. At time when John was baptising, the indwelling Holy Spirit had not yet been given, as that time was pre cross pre pentecost. Hence the last line in verse 25, is only applicable to this very special pre cross post cross generation (first century Church) in this transition period from law to grace.

    Blessings

    Ken

  137. Correction, At “that” time when John was baptising

  138. Lighting Storm,

    I do believe that later in this chapter it indicates Apollos received the Baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues by what the Bible says.

    GaryB

  139. Andrew May 31st 2013

    The Pentecostal pioneers believed that “tongues” is something that accompanies Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is the classic Pentecostal position. I am generally in agreement with that. We see it all through Acts.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  140. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same thing as ‘the gift of the Holy Spirit’, receiving the Holy Spirit, being filled with the Spirit, etc…..

    There is only one Holy Spirit, and the evidence that will be manifested (revealed) physically when the Holy Spirit enters the heart of the believer is speaking in other languages.

    How did the 1st century Christians know they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

    Matthew 3:11

    “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

    Here is a message I wrote entitled “The Holy Spirit (Is He IN You?)”

    http://gospelofthekingdomofgod.blogspot.com/2010/10/true-conversion-baptism-in-spirit.html

    Because of the false teachings of the ‘sinners prayer’, ‘accepting Jesus into your heart’, and ‘just believe’ etc… many who profess to be Christians have not been truly converted to Christ as they were in 1st century.

  141. Andrew, Acts is a “mere” recording of what the Church “did” THEN (in that transition period,from law to grace) and there is not that much doctrine to the Church in Acts BUT there is some. I much prefare to go to the epistles of Paul for instruction/doctrine to the Mystery of the Church which was given to Paul ALONE (Gal1) We do not have the problem of that “transition period” (of law to grace today) or the pre cross post cross problem.

    Blessings

    Ken

  142. Tyrone Palmer, you said.
    Because of the false teachings of the ‘sinners prayer’, ‘accepting Jesus into your heart’, and ‘just believe’ etc… many who profess to be Christians have not been truly converted to Christ as they were in 1st century.

    Tyrone, what does John 3;16 say? Does it not say “BELIVE” on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved?

    Tyrone, it is “believe plus nothing” to say other than this, is trampling on the blood of Jesus and saying “that we have something to do” and that His blood of Jesus was not sufficent.

    You are preaching a LEGALISTIC Gospel which is a FALSE gospel.

    I say FAITH alone in Christ ALONE, ONLY belive.

    Blessings

    Ken

  143. Correction, the blood of Jesus

  144. It is BELIEVE plus NOTHING, if you say other? then you are adding to the gospel, which is a false gospel.

    Blessings

    Ken

  145. Many a man or woman in days gone by, mearly utered what you “term” Andrew and Tyrone as the sinners prayer, and did great exploits for God, and became mighty men/women for Him.

    Blessings

    Ken

  146. Andrew Strom and Tyrone Palmer, i see your “term” (just say a little prayer) as a TOTAL mockery.,

    Blessings

    Ken

  147. GaryB Jun 1st 2013

    Tyrone,
    Very good article on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit on your web site.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  148. Marilyn Crow Jun 1st 2013

    There can be no New Birth, except by the agency of the Holy Spirit. (John 3: 5 20: 22)

    The Baptism in the Holy Spirit however is for service. As it is a Baptism of fire, as well as of power, it must have a purifying & sanctifying effect.

    As to the sign of having received the Holy Spirit, there are –
    – a Spirit – filled life. ie. Fruit of the Spirit as an indication of the Spirit`s abiding within.
    – prophecying……
    – speaking with tongues however was the `pattern,` in Acts.

    Marilyn.

  149. Lightning Storm Jun 1st 2013

    EXCELLENT word, Marilyn Crow

  150. Marilyn Crow Jun 1st 2013

    Thankyou Lightning Storm.
    Appreciate you comments also & Ken`s, Watchful`s & Gary`s.

  151. Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead, Spirit of life , et al there is one SpirIt
    gOS IS A SPIRIT

  152. Oops done it again. might be old age!
    I see it thus, not to judge and criticize but to provoke.
    So Love to you all
    God is a (The) Spirit there is One Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!
    Paul testified “when i pray in an unknown tongue .. my understanding is unfruitful” So he would pray in the Spirit (tongues) and with the understanding (native language)

    How many of those who disagree have the Holy Ghost Baptism, and can pray in the Spirit, in the tongue no man understands the “For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” prophesied in Zephaniah.?
    All mankind has polluted his natural language but we can not pollute the tongue the Holy Spirit gives us, we speak mysteries only God understands, and we build ourselves up in the most Holy Faith Paul declared buy the Spirit “I thank my God i speak in tongues (pray in the Spirit ) more than you all. The Spirit searches our hearts and prays for the things He only knows we need.
    How many regularly in the church gathering, hear tongues, interpretation prophecy according to Paul’s inspired instruction?
    When Peter was asked “what shall we do” He gave a God inspired, definitive, unambiguous answer, uncolored by the mind of man, step by step clear instruction. and urged those listening to “save themselves from this evil generation”
    Why or Why do we tamper with the Word of God.
    Like Israel of old Christians have again altered the altar, substituting tradition of men for the Word. If we want revival and i believe we all do, then the the Elijah ministry should teach us
    Rebuild the altar (offer ourselves a living sacrifice) and call on Fire (Holy Spirit) He shall fill us, all if we ask and we will have the audible visible evidence only God can give from Heaven.Thus did true revivalists throughout history.. We confess our desire for the latter part of Acts two (41 – 47) and omit the steps required in verses 35 – 40.
    Pr Michael

  153. Andrew Jun 1st 2013

    As I show clearly in my book on the “Sinner’s Prayer”, that method is found NOWHERE in the New Testament. Also, it is not true that you can have real Bible “faith” without the Holy Spirit. In my case, I found this very much to be true.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  154. Gary B
    You ask “Do you believe if a person does not have the Baptism with the evidence of tongues that those without this experience will go to heaven?”
    First some of them that do may not!.
    Second
    “Blessed and Holy is he that takes part (continues) in the first resurrection on him the second death has no power”
    Rev 2 11, Rev 20 6, Rev 20 14, Rev 21 8.
    Gary I believe the first resurrection begins when we are born again of water (baptism) and raised in the Spirit (Holy Ghost baptism) a new creation and ends when we receive a new body at the return of Jesus.
    Then after the thousand years is over the books are opened for judgment and we read
    “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
    So I Gary do not yet know! However whatever my God decides to do, I know that it will indeed be just, righteous, and I will be happy and content, in the mean time I have been instructed not to water down the Gospel that Jesus shed His blood, died, rose again to satisfy, ratify and become the testator to, His will and testament for His heirs.

    Gary I trust we all can be in in good company here as Peter declared “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” In other words we do not yet know. one way or the other?
    Pr Michael

  155. Andrew Thirty years ago I was privileged to have a very friendly conversation with a sincere Spirit filled AOG pastor on this subject.
    After searching scripture together he eventually agreed that this understanding of Salvation was correct.
    He then said “But will you now agree that if my folk eventually speak in tongues we both have achieved the same result” My reply was “Yes, but not if they still maintain the believe it is an unnecessary extra”

    Pr Michael

  156. Barry Schmidt Jun 1st 2013

    Isn’t true Christianity Christ in us plus nothing of ourselves?
    God isn’t looking for what the church does or is or produces.
    God is ONLY looking for what Christ is and does and produces in the Church!

    Jesus didn’t say, ” Church build the church ”
    He SAID , “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH”

    Jesus didn’t say, ” Christian live life by doing thus and so.
    He Said, “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.”

    Jesus didn’t say, ” Do these works and you will live. ”
    He SAID, ” THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD TO BELIEVE IN HIS SON”

    Jesus didn’t say, ” Do these things and you will escape the judgement of God.”
    He SAID, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

  157. Barry Schmidt Jun 1st 2013

    Jesus didn’t say, ” depart from me because you didn’t perform a certain way.”
    He SAID, “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from M e, you who practice lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23 NASB)

    The issue is that even though they DID all the good things ( preach, prophesy, cast out demons and did many miracles in his name) HE DID NOT KNOW THEM!

    DOES JESUS KNOW YOU?

  158. Barry Schmidt Jun 1st 2013

    true Christianity is not determined by WHAT PEOPLE DO . It is determined BY WHO YOU ARE, BY WHOSE YOU ARE AND BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF THESE!
    The Christian life is not lived by trying to act Christlike. It is lived BY KNOWING YOUR IDENTITY IN CHRIST!

    We do not acquire our identity by what we do.
    We do what we perceive our identity to be!
    No one can consistently live in a way that is inconsistent with the way they perceive themselves.

    DOING DOESN’T MAKE A PERSON CHRISTIAN ANY MORE THAN A MONKEY ACTING LIKE A HUMAN MAKES IT A HUMAN.

  159. Barry Schmidt Jun 1st 2013

    True Christianity IS CHRIST !
    The true church can no more loose true Christianity than she can lose Christ!

  160. Barry Schmidt Jun 1st 2013

    Jesus did not say,” You will receive power when the Holy Spirit cones upon you and you will DO (witnessing).”
    He SAID, “but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall BE My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8 NASB)

    The PRIMARY work of the Spirit is NOT to make us DO BUT TO MAKE US BE witnesses!

    The Spirit CHANGES OUR IDENTITY so we BECOME SONS OF GOD!
    The Spirit of God is FOR BEING NOT PRIMARILY FOR DOING!

    The DOING IS THE FRUIT but the BEING ( identity) IS THE ROOT !

  161. Marilyn Crow Jun 1st 2013

    Very good Barry Schmidt. Amen to that.

    logan

    My heart goes out to you for what you perceive.

    `Real Christianity…few of us have….seldom existed….only a shallow rel. .. & spill over of revival nearly gone.`

    How sad. Makes me wonder how you see the Lord Jesus Christ the Head of the Body. He would either have to be….

    – a liar. `I will build….`
    – or weak & lack power, couldn`t accomplish it.
    – or He was relying on us to `build it.`

    What does He tell us in His word.

    STEPS TO BUILDING THE BODY OF CHRIST.

    1. THE EARLY CHURCH.
    They worked well together & had the Apostles doctrine. This revelation & life had to be tested though.

    2. OVERCOMING – PERSECUTION & EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE. (Early believers till now)
    To be overcomers people have been ridiculed, persecuted, tortured, & even died cruel deaths for the truths they believed.

    `Salvation, Baptism in water, Holy Life, Infilling of Holy Spirit, Giftings, Ministries, ….`

    How blessed we are today to have received these truths by people who have had to stand against `winds of doctrine.`

    And amid all this the Body of Christ is growing up into Him who is the Head.
    `from whom the whole Body being fitted together by that which every joint supplies,……causes the growth of the Body for the building of its self in love.` (Eph.4: 14)

    3. TILL MATURE – THE UNITY OF THE FAITH.
    When we as the Body come to the full understanding of Christ`s character & His purposes. (Eph. 4: 13)

    Personally I find it not helpful to look at the `glitz,` but focus on what Chtist is doing in the `rubble of life,` I read missionary books, & true stories of people coming through the horrors of Rhwanda, & discipling examples like Jackie Pullinger in Hong Kong`s infamous walled city, etc, etc.

    I work with other Christians in & out of organisations in our area, discipling, sharing food, clothing, support, encouragement, & getting my corners rubbed off.

    My heart is filled with praise at what our great Lord, Redeemer & Head of the Body has done, is doing & will accomplish. Daily He revives us, because He is the Author & Perfector of our Faith.

    In your loving care, open His eyes Lord, & lead us on.

    Marilyn.

  162. Andrew Jun 1st 2013

    An over-emphasis on “tongues” is putting the cart before the horse.

    We need to emphasize the things that Jesus and the apostles spoke to people. This was not a gospel centered on ‘tongues’.

    Tongues is a by-product.

    Over-emphasizing it leads to great distortion of the basic message.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  163. GaryB Jun 1st 2013

    Michael wrote: So I Gary do not yet know! However whatever my God decides to do, I know that it will indeed be just, righteous, and I will be happy and content, in the mean time I have been instructed not to water down the Gospel that Jesus shed His blood, died, rose again to satisfy, ratify and become the testator to, His will and testament for His heirs. Quote………………..

    Praise God, I feel the same way if we do not know from scriptures, how can anyone condemn someone and question a man’s salvation.

    I know a brother and his wife who love the Lord and have an outreach to foreign students at the local campus. His relatives told him because he does not speak with tongues that he is not saved.

    I have shared with him the word but I understand his caution because if you have repented and been born of the Spirit you know in your heart Jesus forgave you of your sins. His relatives have some very strange doctrines and it would turn all of us off as well. Sometimes over zealous people do more damage and hinder others from seeing.

    I agree also with any type of over emphasizing of certain doctrines is definitely a distortion of the Word.

    With some its tongues, with others its water baptism, still others its the end times, etc. etc..

    With all that said, I do think its good to pray in the Spirit (tongues) often and I have friends who spend much time in intercession in the Spirit. I am very thankful for this blessing from the Lord.

    Paul said: 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

    Micheal thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, its better to just let the Lord take care of some things in His timing.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  164. I read your article with interest. I feel that we have pushed true, Bible based christianity away from us so that we can live our lives without guilt. I do not feel christianity is lost, there are those who struggle every day to follow the teachings of Christ. We fail, we fall down, and we forget, but God is always there, pulling us up, forgiving us and pushing us onward through His word.

    I think we need a revival. I pray for that revival. But I do not give up on God because His will will win. Satan is strong but God is stronger. We are like Eve, we want the forbidden fruit, but God is above all and He will win.

    God Bless,
    Pat

  165. That’s right Andrew, we should never ‘overemphasize’ speaking in other tongues, Jesus didn’t, and neither did His apostles, but they did emphasize being baptized in water and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit!

    And let us remember these words of Jesus:

    Mark 14:16-18

    “Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    Thanks for reading the message GaryB, I agree with you on your statement about the Lord’s timing. And I will add that HE will take care of ALL things very shortly, because Jesus is coming back soon!

  166. Andrew Jun 1st 2013

    Agreed, Tyrone.

    -Andrew

  167. You have made some excellent points. Have published your word on our blog at http://extendedhands.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/have-we-lost-christianity/

  168. Haven Jun 2nd 2013

    Christ’s ministry while he was on earth was about calling people to reconciliation of a more intimate relationship with God through repentance of sins for the remission of sins and learning God’s ways. It was about a relationship with God and the type of fellowship with God and each other that revolves around love.

    Christ’s ministry was not about calling people to be Christians, or to go to a Christian Coven every Sunday. There are many people that understand the law, but they do not understand the relationship.

    Christians have a reputation for being into the occult and lying about it and justifying themselves by saying that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, so they are forgiven for being into the occult, so it is okay.

    We are called to holiness, not to Christianity. And to love God and love one another. With God’s love.

  169. As people have already mentioned, we never had ‘Christianity’ to lose. People have viewed the church as the ‘reign of God’ when JESUS IS THE REIGN OF GOD. People advocate plugging into church if you want God, so the church by default has become “God”. We have forgotten that JESUS said “You seek the Kingdom and I’ll build the church”. The temple has become an idol, an idol of self.

    The church has been deceived into believing that success is the goal, while Jesus only desires the INTIMACY OF OUR FELLOWSHIP. For the Apostle Paul the goal was ‘personal intimacy with Christ’ -to know Him not master the theology of His person and work.

    The Christian West was seduced by the spirit of the age and led into capitivity as early as the 4th century – into the Renaissance era, Enlightenment era, Humanism,utilitarian consumerism and the 20/21st centuries. It has made its own image and become its own god.

    The early ekklesia was a simple 2 tiered structure. God on top of every member and every member under the authority of God’s Holy Spirit. No in-betweens!

    The Apostles had no personal authority over the members. They had simply learned what God wanted to teach to the other members. The Holy Spirit backed the Apostles, as they remained obedient to HIM.

    The Apostles taught the basic doctrine of Christ but more importantly they taught the new members how to hear and recognise the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures actually show us how to locate, access, recognise and discern the Holy Spirit voice of God.

    The NT church meetings were full of the members hearing the Holy Spirit and full of members walking in the gifts of the Spirit.

    Thus it was THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO DIRECTED THE EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN EVERY MEETING! And it was the HS
    who appointed each member into what role HE wanted them to perform in the group. Every role in the ekklesia was ministering to the members under the AUTHORITY AND LEADING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    In the NT church GOD became the personal leader of every member and God’s desire or aim has not changed!

    So we need to exit any ‘church’ structure that does not demonstrate this, because no gain can ever come of it and people who prop up this will find when they eventually meet with God He will say to them “Though you did this and did that in My name, yet I never knew you -depart from me………”

    Stay close to God and His Holy Spirit leading, develop intimacy with Christ, stay in His word and he will lead you hour by hour, what to do, where to go. Let us leave errant Christianity behind now. If they have refused to see the truith, even when we tell them, God will add to their delusion and they will go into apostacy.

  170. Lightning Storm Jun 2nd 2013

    Whoohoo….way to preach it ….AM and Haven.

    The remnant is alive and well. Quit looking at the masses.

  171. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    AM shared:Thus it was THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO DIRECTED THE EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN EVERY MEETING! And it was the HS who appointed each member into what role HE wanted them to perform in the group. Every role in the ekklesia was ministering to the members under the AUTHORITY AND LEADING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    This is my understanding too – and my desire. Once you have any number of born-again ones, from 2/3 upwards, who believe this, and live it, meeting together – then you have the ‘body life’ that so many yearn for.

    Col 1 says this, in part; “..Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven..”

  172. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    Peter Whyte, (in his e-book “Come out of her My People’) says this:

    Matthew 16; “..Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it…”

    In those days when a man was carrying his cross to his crucifixion, he was to all intents and purposes a dead man. He had lost all his rights and the control of his own life. When Jesus tells us to deny ourselves He is saying that we must die to self and surrender our wills to Him if we want to follow Him and share in the life of God.

    Only when we surrender our souls, with all their selfish desires, to the reign of the Spirit of Christ, will we give the Lord Jesus Christ the first place in everything.

  173. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013
  174. Marilyn Crow Jun 2nd 2013

    Thank you Roger for that link. Have down loaded it & looking forward fo reading it when I have time.

    Am so appreciating the comments today on Christ & His true work. Thank you all. What an encouragement & exhortation.

    Marilyn.

  175. Andrew Jun 2nd 2013

    Sadly Roger, as often happens with the “Out of church” people on here, the link you posted was completely “anti-Body”, anti-leader, and “anti” the New Testament pattern.

    If you believe in a permanent “lone ranger” state, I am sorry but that is outright heresy.

    Bless you,

    Andrew Strom

  176. GaryB Jun 2nd 2013

    Roger(NZ),

    I checked out your website to see what was being said over there.

    With regrets I must tell you that this man is into some heavy deception. I would be very leery of following this guy’s doctrines, he is leading people away from what the Bible teaches.

    6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

    Roger I looked at several articles and this man has an open door to new age thinking.

    I hope you are not a follower of his.

    GaryB

  177. GaryB Tx again I agree we should not over emphasize any part of the Word,
    Since the Corinthians had it out of order everyone in the meeting was doing it Paul must have been a prlific prayer in te Spirit
    We live by every Word of God not some of every Word
    I do believe many who over-emphasize scripture are those who omit scripture or choose to ignore/misinterpret passages.eg the prayer language of the Spirit filled is just one example of the often neglected Spiritual gifts which Paul said in Cor 12 1 he would not have us ignorant about.
    Of course these are not the only examples one could give.
    If we as Spirit filled believers emphasize anything then maybe it should be just to walk in the Spirit giving offense in nothing
    I have one question for all.
    Is teaching from Scripture – Scripture interpreting Scripture – that the Initial evidence of the Holy Ghost Baptism is “speaking in tongues” not correct? Remember Simon the sorcerer, when he saw it it happen offered money for this, and he a conjurer, amazing gift.

    Pr Michael

  178. Andrew Jun 2nd 2013

    Sure, Michael.

    But you notice that the apostles never went around preaching a “gospel” about Tongues.

    It was a by-product – not the “focus”.

    When “tongues” is your big emphasis, the sad truth is that you have actually lost most of the gospel.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  179. No problem with that tx Andrew
    Pr Michael

  180. watchful Jun 2nd 2013

    Those who are gifted to be under-shepherds to the flock are supposed to lead the flock from behind…for that is how the shepherds in ancient Israel led their flocks. If the shepherds got in front of the flock, the sheep would scatter in confusion…In other words the sheep should not see the man, they should only see/hear Christ. The voice the sheep hear should be only the voice of the Holy Spirit. In other words the shepherds ought to be IN the Spirit and leading BY the Spirit, hidden in Christ. The problem we have is that they are all, with very rare exceptions, in the flesh and leading by the flesh, and the voice the sheep hear is only theirs, and not the Spirit of God. The flesh naturally forms a church structure and hierarchy and an authority that is not of the Spirit, but is, of course, of the flesh……like the world. This eventually grows up and bears its fruit, which is what we are seeing now in the time of the end…….the sheep of God scattered and the fleshly church has lost the cross, revelation and truth……and becomes more and more worldly and eventually the Holy Spirit is grieved enough to depart. And this I think is what Andrew is saying, when he says the church has lost Christianity, which I agree with.

    Jesus said when the salt loses its saltiness it can’t be made salty again, so why do we want to start the same fleshly process all over again rather than departing it right along with the Holy Spirit, following Him, trusting Him………………………………Don’t we believe what Jesus said? This isn’t business as usual, this is a unique time in church history…..the time of the end.

  181. AM, exactly spot on! There is NO “church authority” over members. God never ordained a (post-Calvary) human authority structure (thank you, watchful), and those who (have been brainwashed to) resort to that bogus structure in order to “find God” or “visit with God” or “go into God’s house” find themselves, if ignorantly, worshipping at the feet of the most insidious idol of all time – the institutional church. And those who still support such a structure in any way (under the guise of supporting what has “worked” pragmatically at various times of history, such as “preaching” or “revival” or “great men” who have ministered through or under the auspices of some Institutional Church structure) will have to stand before God and give account for the millions who never become a part of God’s true church – or who enter in and are immediately emasculated – as a result.

  182. AM – said: “The Apostles had no personal authority over the members. They had simply learned what God wanted to teach to the other members. The Holy Spirit backed the Apostles, as they remained obedient to HIM.”

    Ben – said: “AM, exactly spot on! There is NO “church authority” over members. God never ordained a (post-Calvary) human authority structure……..”

    1st Corinthians 12:27-28

    “Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.”

    The scriptures tell us clearly that God did ordain a human authority structure in the body of Christ. And according to scripture the apostles most certainly had spiritual authority over other members of the body, remember the ‘immoral brother’, Paul had already judged the man who slept with his fathers wife while being present in the spirit (that’s meat!) and commanded that he be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh!

    1st Corinthians 5:1-5,12-13

    “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

    “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

    Paul, as an apostle, was given spiritual authority to judge other members inside the body of Christ.

    Also 2nd Corinthians 10:8-11

    “For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed— lest I seem to terrify you by letters. “For his letters,” they say, “are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.” Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present.”

    2nd Corinthians 13:1-2,10

    “This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare—”

    “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

    Acts 20:25-28

    “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

    So AM, Ben and others, I pray that these scriptures will enlighten your minds and give you a better understanding of the truth concerning the authority (for edification and not for your destruction) that the Lord gives to apostles, prophets, elders, and overseer’s of His sheep in the body of Christ.

  183. Marilyn Crow Jun 2nd 2013

    TyronePalmer

    Good scriptures, Tyrone. Have you personally seen that – the mother/father relationship of Paul with His few specific disciples in leaders today? Have you seen such a one caring for his few specific disciples pointing out error in their behaviour? Do you see Paul running an organisation?

    Andrew Strom

    Could you please clarify for me what you mean by `Out of Church` people? Is that `Out of Church` meaning out of the Body of Christ or `Out of Church,` meaning out of Church (formal, traditional) organisation?

    Amen Watchful

    – `A unique time in Church history.`

    – `The under – shepherds to the flock are supposed to lead from behind.`

    So agree. It`s that mother/father heart of Paul that relates personally to his few specific disciples in their everyday life. A true picture & outworking of Father God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit.

    Gary B

    I`ll be checking out that site for the New Age you saw.

    Marilyn.

  184. The reality is that we have people who do not want to follow anyone but themselves…

    Do not want to commit to anyone but themselves…

    All the arguments sound so appealing…

    But they are empty…

    I can see through them – the arguments – for I was once “there” and more and more (in my heart) am leaving “there” (it is a process :-))…

    It is a very sad state of affairs…

    A fatherless generation doesn’t want to be fathered…

    They want independence…

    “It’s a hopeless cause”, they say…

    It is based on mistrust…

    I see the hurt behind the comments being made – as I mentioned on a previous thread – I see the abuse…

    But there is a time to forgive and move on and trust again…

    If that time is resisted then those who remain in that state become a cancer to the Body of Christ…

    They do not believe that God is strong enough to raise up His true Authority in themselves or in their brothers and sisters they are not willing to take their part in the Body (wherever that is meant to be) – they become (whether they attend a “building” or not) an island (on the inside) unto themselves (I know, I’ve been there)…

    So they want to exit (either literally or in their hearts) and bag (either literally or in their hearts) the very structure He created for their welfare – the “sheep pen” so to speak that He created (they hate true Authority and only want to establish their own)…

    The “New Testament” Church…

    Not the man-made structures – I’m not talking about that – but the very “New Testament” Church – the one which Paul set in order…

    The Holy Spirit in our new self is stronger than the devil in our flesh (“sin within me”)…

    Who believes that?

    Even Paul said he hadn’t arrived but he challenged his listeners to imitate him as he imitated Christ…

    Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

    I believe Paul wrote Hebrews and I believe he wrote the above…

    He had Authority – he even said it (that he had Authority – true Authority from God) – he knew that he had Authority and he was so reticent to use it as he had a heart of compassion – as in the scriptures quoted by Tyrone above…

    I’ve seen this kind of Authority – the man who leads our Prophetic Intercessors group here in Christchurch has it…

    He is a very gentle man but I’ve seen the Authority come to the surface when there is a need for it – a need to make a stand against something false which would come in and upset the “sheep pen” so to speak…

    Does that make him perfect? No…

    But God told me to submit to him, yes, He did – and I’ve learnt (and am learning) a lot from him – a lot about taking “the lowest Place” – interceding for the world…

    Please do not say that Authority is dead…

    Yes, there is abuse…

    But please do not say that Authority is dead for if you do you are saying that God is dead and is no longer providing His Church with what She needs to “grow up in all things into the Head”…

    We all need fathers…

    We do…

    And if we do not and have not had them then our growth will be stunted…

    Seek the Lord to provide you with a father in the faith, someone (preferably face to face if at all possible in your locality) who can disciple you…

    Love to you all,

    Andrew

  185. GaryB Jun 2nd 2013

    Marilyn Crow,

    By using the term New Age I am not talking about a snake appearing to Jeanne Dixon telling her about the coming world messiah, nor am I referring to the Illuminati and all the conspiracy theories.

    I’m speaking of this new age thinking that explains away what the Bible teaches. Its really the spirit of this age attacking basic Bible truths.

    Here is some quotes that I have tried to keep in context of what was being said:

    1. JA, a leader in Australia refers to listening prayer as the “key to the age.” He claims that being able to hear God on critical issues at critical times will make the difference between life and death for many in the coming days. In a series of messages delivered by JA in Toronto in November of 1997, he spoke loud and clear as to how the Church generally follows Jesus, but rarely hears His voice.Quote………….

    It appears many of these people have ties to the laughing revival in Toronto and it is mentioned in several places.

    What is listening prayer? Does it have anything to do with contemplative prayer?

    I find no where in the NT where it teaches on listening prayer but it is found in Hinduism. Google listening prayer and you will find it is tied into inner healing groups and Hindu groups as well.

    Marilyn if you will notice many groups out there are coming up with real spiritual sounding topics that are not found in the Bible even though they use Bible terms to explain what they are saying.

    Its just the whole mindset where people explain away scriptures but teach things you cannot find in the scriptures.

    GaryB

  186. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    GaryB – I appreciate you concern, thankyou..

    I posted a link to a book – did you mean that link..? or somewhere else on that site..?

  187. GaryB Jun 2nd 2013

    Marilyn Crow,
    What happened to walking in the Spirit and the sheep will know His voice?

    3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
    4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
    5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

    Just some thoughts on this whole matter regarding your response not implying anything at all.

    GaryB

  188. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    Andrew S. – please will you also clarify what part of the book you are referring too..?

    With regard to ‘lone rangers’ did you perhaps miss my previous comment to do with the gathering together of members of Lord Jesus body..?

    In His love,
    Roger

  189. GaryB Jun 2nd 2013

    Roger(NZ),
    I did not see any books as a direct link, it would not open from this site, I had to get there from a different route on the internet, but was able to browse around the home page, I was looking at blogs, and different articles.

    I do think they have ties with the Toronto laughing revival because it was mentioned in various places.

    GaryB

  190. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    GaryB – thankyou for that. I had not seen the articles, I had previously only found a link to an e-book that I had read, and wanted to share.

    The book itself, not written by the host of the site, may be found under the ‘download tab’, and ‘e-books’.

    So, no, rest assured – I am not a ‘follower’ of the site host – and as yet I have not seen the T.R. ties that you mention. I have seen the names of other writers who I know, who believe, teach and support the the truth of the worldwide Body of Lord Jesus.

    One article teaches against the error of ‘cleansing stream’, and I did have a very brief look at one article, with reference to your mention of ‘listening prayer’. So far, in that very short extract, I read of a teaching that when in prayer we should take time to listen to whatever God would say to us, rather than just speak our own words to Him – I would agree with that.

    However, I’m not advocating the site as such – just wanted to share an extract from one book.. :-)

    Blessings my friend, and thankyou..
    Roger

  191. Kevin Jun 2nd 2013

    Andrew JH ,

    I will as you put it unashamedly hold a mirror up to you .

    Your personal experiences around abuse , mistrust , authority etc are simply that , your personal experiences.
    To project these onto others and to judge others through your own experiences is to make assumptions that will not always be correct, especially when dealing with people that you have not personally lead to our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Andrew , regarding authority

    You have bought forth many prophecies regarding yourself , the call on your life , the authority you will walk in, and how this will impact the nations .

    Until such time as these prophecies come to pass , with the gifts , the fruit and spiritual authority, that backs up your spoken and written word,,,until they are are manifest here on earth in a visible way that fulfills the prophecies , you are no more than a brother in the body of Christ and have no right to judge others , projecting your past experiences on to them and calling them a cancer to the body of Christ.

    True authority is real , visible , and witnessed by those to whom Christ sends His true servants to .

    In the example of the loaves and fish’s, the 5000 didn’t simply imagine that the ate the food.
    Jesus bought forth, onto this earthly plane in a visible way that which He could see in the mind of His Father, and the 5000 literally ate that which Jesus bough forth.
    This was nothing to do with the faith of the 5000, it was all to do with the true authority that Jesus walked in.

    Andrew brother, it is important that you understand this.
    Jesus bought forth and manifested in a visible way to the people of this world , the things that He could see in the mind of God . He didn’t tell them that He could see the loaves and fishes in the mind of God and leave the 5000 with simply words of His visions.

    Andrew , the scattered body of Christ will not accept , nor are they commanded to accept , anything other than true visible God given authority that is visibly seen in the lives of the true servants as the fruit of Christ and the gifts of Christ .

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

    your brother in Christ, Kevin

  192. GaryB Jun 2nd 2013

    Roger (NZ)
    I tried to get to the site from this board and was blocked. I assumed from others comments that you were promoting the site and did not pay attention to the book you mentioned.

    My apologies for not looking closer at your link, I went a different route to get to the site but still was not aware of the book you mentioned.

    Email me sometime as the Lord leads at:

    [email protected]

    Very sorry, I did not pay attention to what you shared.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  193. Andrew Jun 2nd 2013

    TYRONE SAID-
    “The scriptures tell us clearly that God did ordain a human authority structure in the body of Christ. And according to scripture the apostles most certainly had spiritual authority over other members of the body, remember the ‘immoral brother’, Paul had already judged the man who slept with his fathers wife while being present in the spirit (that’s meat!) and commanded that he be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh!”

    “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.” (-1 Cor 12)

    ANDREW’s NOTE:

    Tyrone is absolutely right.

    To say the early church had no “structure” and no real “leaders” is complete heresy – and results in a total “scattering”.

    I saw this very clearly in my years in the “way out there” OOC camp.

    It is heresy and needs to be RENOUNCED.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  194. Roger (NZ) Jun 2nd 2013

    GaryB – no need to apologise :-)

    I initially tried the book link myself to make sure it worked, at the time I posted. It now doesn’t – so something has changed.

    In His love,
    Roger

  195. Tyrone, God never gave to ANY man or woman human authority over another (except that parents do have “because I said so” authority over their young children), though He gave tons of authority to exercise HIS authority. The only legitimate authority that ANYONE can claim is the Word of God – the Law of God – and that NEVER adheres to an office. It is the authority of God Himself. ANYONE can exercise it. Yes, even the “civil government” that is often over-ascribed to Romans 13. You MUST understand this critical difference.

    Andrew, Biblical leaders are, as described above, shepherds who lead from the back or the midst of the pack. They are NOT commanders who bark orders from the front or who exercise “BECAUSE I SAID SO” authority. That is NEVER from God. That is, however, the way of the institutional church. Without exception. And it is a stench in the nostrils of God. Does God ordain structure? Absolutely. He is a God of order. Does he ordain what passes for “church” today, though? No. And we’re not Out Of Church to be separate from the idol that calls itself church. It is the idol that is out of church. So where are YOU?

  196. Barry Schmidt Jun 2nd 2013

    THE ONLY TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE:
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “B ut the righteous man shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16, 17 NASB)

    THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THE CHURCH:

    And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22, 23 NASB)

    No church can consistently ACT in a way that is inconsistent with the way she perceives herself to be. No church will perceive herself to BE THE FULLNESS OF HIM WHO FILLS ALL IN ALL- until the preachers preach the ONLY TRUE GOSPEL- “The righteousness of God which is by faith from first to last”

    As long as you people insist in preaching a false gospel of works righteousness and condemn the church as less than God Himself has declared it to be “the fullness of Him who fills all in all” the church will remain weak, lukewarm, indifferent and inactive.

    The church is suffering from identity confusion and it YOUR FAULT !
    Preach the truth and stop being ashamed to preach the gospel and the church will rise up AND BE HERSELF AGAIN!!!!!

    I am sick to death of all this religious self righteous condemnation if the church. She needs TRUTH NOT CONDEMNATION!!!

  197. Barry Schmidt Jun 2nd 2013

    The Bible doesn’t tell us to get the fullness of Christ down.
    The Bible declares that the church IS THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST!

    The Bible doesn’t tell us to ACT OR PRAY OR WORK our way into being a glorious bride without spot or wrinkle.
    The Bible tells us TO BELIEVE THAT THE CHURCH IS the glorious bride without spot or wrinkle.

    The Bible doesn’t teach that the MEANS the Church became the glorious church without spot or wrinkle is by DOING ANYTHING.
    The Bible SAYS that the MEANS IS “he gave himself up for her TO MAKE HER HOLY AND BLAMELESS AND TO PRESENT HER TO HIMSELF WITHOUT SPOT OR WRINKLE” Eph 5:25ff

    Jesus death I what makes the church what she is- PLUS NOTHING!!!!

    When are we all going to stop with the wisdom of men and the traditions of men AN START TO BELIEVE WHAT GOD’ S WORD SAYS ABOUT THE CHURCH??

  198. Barry Schmidt Jun 3rd 2013

    We don’t have a DOING problem. We have an UNBELIEF PROBLEM!!!!

  199. Barry, the church is US – all the blood-bought, born-again, redeemed children of God who name Jesus as our Savior. It is NOT some third-party “She” or “It” or “Inc.” etc. It is not someplace you go or something you do. The church has an identity crisis only insofar as we look to structure or leadership or statements of faith or meeting places or programs or … etc. as elements of our definition. And TRUTH is a PERSON – HE defines the church, and He alone.

  200. But maybe we’re on the same page after all …

  201. Barry Schmidt Jun 3rd 2013

    Ben- yup and AMEN!
    Blessings be yours in abundance!
    Barry

  202. Barry Schmidt Jun 3rd 2013

    Christ Jesus alone is the churches Head,
    He alone is the the churches substance!
    He alone is the churches one foundation.
    Christ Jesus himself is her strength, her beauty and her ONLY righteousness!
    He alone is the churches GLORY !

    “to him ALONE be glory IN THE CHURCH through every generation”

    Therefore: There can be NO WEAK CHURCH!

  203. Roger (NZ) Jun 3rd 2013

    I believe that many of us are saying the same thing yet using different words..?

    I don’t see that we are called ‘out of church’ when ‘church’ refers to the body of Christ Jesus.

    However I do see that we are called out of anything and everything ‘religious’ that has been established by man, that suggests those who are His should submit to any authority not of Lord Jesus – that is not of God, but is, in fact anti Christ.

    We are called out of spiritual ‘Babylon’ and ‘Egypt’.

    Those who are His, are called (spiritually) out of the world of mankind – and into Lord Jesus, everything that is of Him and in Him. I would call this His Body, His Church, His Ekklesia.

    From that respect, I agree with both Ben and Barry – there can be no weak Church, no cancer in the Church – because it is the body of Lord Jesus, of which He is the Head. This body is organic, worldwide, united in the Holy Spirit, because the members of that body are listening to the Spirit of Truth, and being obedient to that same Spirit who will only speak the words from Almighty God.

    When individual members stumble, are led astray, even fall away – this will not weaken or affect the true Church, the Body of Christ, the majority of whom are physically dead, so spiritually with Him now. These are the ‘dead in Christ’ who will be resurrected first, translated first, at Lord Jesus ‘coming’ in all glory as King of kings..

    In His love,
    Roger

  204. hate it when people speak of the Church of Jesus Christ in a light which intimates that She will be powerless and ineffective to the end…

    Are you speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ – every Blood bought Saint – in this light Randall?

    If you are then I believe scripture disagrees with you…

    Could you please clarify your position
    MOST GLADLY ANDREW.
    WE as believers do NOT LOSE any LIGHT of CHRIST
    no matter how evil all gets around us and no matter
    how lukewarm many churches get.
    THE TRUE LAMBS will ALWAYS have the TRUE LIGHT
    and WALK IN HIS PPOWER to let others see.
    THE LIGHT will NOT DIMINISH, just because the
    numbers do. WE as a group of believers
    will LET the LIGHT SHINE till the LAST DAY.
    all the gifts will be with various memebers to be used within the body for edificatoin of the body. We will NOT LESSEN one ounce
    in anything of GOD.
    HOWEVER, many will fall away from SOUND DOCTRINE.
    as we now see and this apostacy will only WORSEN.
    BUT THROUGH IT ALL OUR GOD IS WITH US
    and the GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT to be used as GOD wills.
    THANKS FOR LETTING ME CLARIFY.
    OH, there is no mention of END TIME ENLIGHTENMENT
    ONLY END TIME DELUSION. MEANING it waxes worse
    amongst many who even claim the name of CHRIST
    in word only NOT IN HEART.
    WILL the few still do exploits……….YOU BET
    will some souls still hear and be saved. YOU BET.
    BUT as a whole many will fall short and wax evil and betray many.
    Now i have a favour to ask of you andrew.
    BURN ALL NARNIA BOOKS, and all physcology books
    any mens wisdom books. and READ only BIBLE.
    Be blessed.

  205. I missed all the lambs of the LORD.
    ROGER………….
    my advice always stands. and that is we should STICK in the BIBLE. I found a sight the other day.
    THEY were saying all truth……..i mean i thought i had found
    a group for the LORD. they spoke truth, yet i perceived something was wrong. But i kept testing the words they were saying and the words were TRUTH. so i kept reading
    Only to find out…………………..THEYS NEW AGE. it came out
    at the end, when they gave another list of books to read.
    AND i clicked on that list………………..THE SHACK was NUMBER ONE, JOYCE MEYER, etc…………..
    I was so heavy hearted. but this is how new age works.
    this is how they decieve the unlearned and unstable.
    WERE it not for GODS GRACE………………..putting me also into ONLY THE BIBLE………………i could easily have fallen for this whole snare. SO my advice stands.
    TEST ALL WHO SPEAK…………….TEST < TRY THEM
    and GET BIBLE EDUCATED AND STAY BIBLE EDUCATED.
    cause they are becoming so very decptive.
    ANDREW………………..the shack is of satan. You would agree .

  206. LIKE GOD TOLD THE CHURCH
    YE HAVE TRIED THEM WHO SAY THEY ARE APOSTELS
    but lie………..
    TEST , TEST , TEST all and any man who speaks.
    TEST all HIS WORDS, his actions, test it all.
    ONLY GOD HIS WORD IS TRUTH.
    THIS is what you compare any man to.
    THE TRUTH TEST.
    FOR many now creep in, and say ALL THE RIGHT TRUTH
    and win the hearts of men. ONLY to later bring in the leaven
    lil by lil. THEY are DOING THIS its the plan and has been the plan of new age. THEY COME in and ACT CHRISTAIN
    EVEN TEACH CHRISTAINITY………………….even PREACH
    christainity………………and then after gaining the trust
    HERE comes the leaven ……………lil by lil, here a little
    there a little………………till she has waxed fat.
    TEST ALL and KEEP TESTING ALL. PROVE all things
    HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH ISGOOD
    abstain from all evil. TEST all. TEST ALL. amen.

  207. AND KEEP TESTING ALL.

  208. AND NEVER STOP TESTING ALL.

  209. I agree with any and all who LOVE The LORD in SINCERITY and TRUTH. Any man who tries and bring mens reasonings
    wisdoms, physcologies, any blending of GODS TRUTH
    with mens reasonings…………..I will warn till my last breath.
    WE have all the TRUTH we NEED in the BIBLE.
    and if that aint enough……………..then SOMETHINGS WRONG with US.
    When leaven kicks off…………………BY THE GRACE OF GOD
    shall i shun it, and warn of it , AMEN.
    MANY have waxed cold against ONLY BIBLE DOCTRINE
    this is their loss.
    MY GAIN is I HAVE NOT. and BY GODS GRACE
    with all determination I WILL stand in CHRIST
    and GODS TRUTH , HOLY DOCTRINE in the bible.
    THAT I KNOW IS TRUTH. ALL ELSE GETS TESTED.
    TILL THE LAST BREATH. AND IT GETS TESTED against
    BIBLE DOCTRINE RIGHTLY DIVIDED and UNDERSTOOD
    by the GRACE OF GOD.
    ONE THING i have noticed………….
    and SANDRA KNOWS THIS TOO.
    many people preach about many things.
    YET NOT ABOUT HIS DAY.
    TOO much i suppose going on in this ole world
    too much cares in this life ………..
    too much emphasis on me, myself and my worldly gains
    well…………..that is their LOSS.
    MY HOPE and mY ONLY HOPE is the HOPE not SEEN.
    BUT ONE DAY SHALL BE SEEN. amen.

  210. and now a song unto the LORD.
    A song of praise unto the KING
    who is my all, my everything
    all else falls short it cant compare
    HIS WISDOM IS GREAT so good , so rare
    a treasure it is for all to learn
    all else falls short, and soon is to burn
    BUT HIS TRUTH ENDURES THROUGH ALL TIMES.
    OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    SING with me , a song of praise
    to GOD be the glory all our days
    HE is TRUTH the WAY , the LIFE
    WE are HIS BRIDE, we are the wife
    OUR LORD is great our strenght in the FIGHT
    FROM HIM ALL EVIL DOES TAKE FLIGHT.
    OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    TO THE LORD be all glory all songs , all praise
    HE is our hope , all of our days
    THERE is none like unto HIM, nothing even close
    SO sing unto HIM, with a LOUD voice rejoice
    TO THE LORD be all glory to the LORD be all praise
    HE is our savoir all our days
    HE is our hope , our light , our life
    we he appears so too shall his wife,
    OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SING, SING
    SING O lambs…….TO GOD be the glory
    TO GOD BE THE PRAISE
    HE is our hope, our strenght and our light
    and will keep us from evil , all our days
    REJOICE , REJOICE, REJOICE in HIM at all times
    sing unto him, even with rhymes
    SING , SING to the LORD be all praise
    HE IS OUR HOPE, all our days…………………….

  211. Be blessed all lambs………….
    and PRAISE THE LORD. amen

  212. Marilyn Crow Jun 3rd 2013

    What a joy to be with the brethren, reading encouragement, exhortations (Ben, Barry, Roger – each one bring……) & songs of praise, thank you, prophetic minstral, Randall, and then to see mature men in the Lord, Gary & Roger work through a misunderstanding with such grace & humility. This truely is a `meeting,` of God`s servants.

    Praise the Lord. Marilyn.

  213. Andrew Jun 3rd 2013

    This is a “meeting”???? Good heavens!

    Actually God does ordain human authority in His Church. Without it you have nothing but spiritual anarchy. This is very clear all the way through the New Testament.

    All this “scattering” cannot bring about true ‘Body’.

    I am so disgusted with the unscriptural “anti-Body” and “anti-leader” diatribes on this thread that I am shutting it down.

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom