UTTERLY AMAZING from CHARISMA MAGAZINE!!

ANDREW’S NOTE: I was really surprised (in a pleasant way) by this article sent out by Charisma magazine this week. It is written by their News Editor Jennifer LeClaire. Let us know what you think-

“WHEN ROCK-STAR PREACHERS SPEW A FALSE GOSPEL”
-extracts by Jennifer LeClaire

When preachers tour like rock stars, it´s no wonder sinners flock
to stadiums. Of course, preachers holding stadium-sized events
packed out with lost souls is awesome – unless those preachers
present a hyped-up, watered-down, seeker-friendly gospel that´s
giving the assurance of heaven while sending people to hell.

I am convinced that too many people who claim to be Christ-
followers are not really saved because too many false teachers
and false prophets are propagating a “different gospel” centered
on “another Jesus” (see 2 Cor. 11:3-4). I am convinced that
many self-professing saints are going to sit right next to sinners
in hell when it´s all said and done – thanks, in part, to rock-star
preachers presenting a hyped-up, watered-down, seeker-friendly gospel.

Especially in America, it´s easy to say, “I believe in Jesus.” It´s
called mental assent. I believed in Jesus before I got saved, too,
but I was still on my way to hell. Many who have “accepted Jesus
into their hearts” have responded to a “different gospel” centered
on a false Christ. This gospel is mixed with compromise. This
gospel is impure and defiled religion. This gospel offers a
humanistic, self-help message that taps New Age principles.
Indeed, these false teachers and false prophets are moving in
a false anointing and presenting a false Christ. And it´s deadly.

Church, why are we putting up with this false gospel? Why are
we spending millions of dollars on books filled with heresy penned
by false teachers? Why are people flocking to stadiums to worship
another Jesus?

They have been deceived by the serpent´s craftiness. Their minds
have been corrupted from the simplicity of Christ. The gospel is
not difficult to understand, and it´s not difficult to recognize false
doctrine if you are a student of the Word. But members of the
lukewarm, apathetic, bless-me-only church are too lazy to open
their Bibles and read Scripture for themselves. Members of the
lukewarm, apathetic, bless-me-only church want to be spoon-fed
a feel-good 20-minute sermonette rather than be challenged to
die to self, pick up their cross and walk the narrow road. They’ve
turned away from the real Jesus to another Jesus. Paul felt the
same angst in his spirit that I feel in mine…

Some of those “gospels” insist there is no hell.
Some of those “gospels” say we´re all going to heaven
in the end. Some of those “gospels” give you a license to sin
without penalty. False teachers are using familiar Scriptures to
justify their stance, but they´ve essentially turned the Bible into
a book of fables and fairy tales.

I don´t care who doesn´t like it. I´m taking the apostle Paul´s advice:
“Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince,
rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time
will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according
to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will
heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away
from the truth, and be turned aside to fables” (2 Tim. 4:2-4).

Does He Know You?

Here´s the rub. Jesus is come back to separate the sheep from
the goats (Matt. 25:32). And I´m seeing too many goats sitting in
the church saying amen to a false gospel centered on a false Christ.

Jesus put it this way: “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,´
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of
My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your
name, and done many wonders in Your name?´ And then I will
declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who
practice lawlessness!´” (Matt. 7:21-23)

They never knew Jesus, and Jesus never knew them. They were
following another Jesus based on a different gospel that was more
convenient to their humanistic lifestyle, tickled their ears and
promised peace when there is no peace (Jer. 6:14).

I shudder to think of the horror on that day, when masses who
rushed to the stadiums and megachurches to hear rock-star
preachers (or even no-name preachers in small congregations)
present a hyped-up, watered-down, seeker-friendly gospel realize
they´ve been duped. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And there will be suffering for eternity. God forbid. Let us pray
that these false teachers and false prophets will be exposed and
that discernment will rise among believers and non-believers
searching for the true hope of the real gospel. Amen.

-READ THE FULL ARTICLE AT THE LINK BELOW-

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/39350

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on May 8th, 2013 at 9:44 am.

436 comments

436 Replies

  1. Johan Laubser May 8th 2013

    Hi Andrew, 20 minutes ago I spoke to someone who has not been to church for 2 years. His testimony of how God provided for him and his family blessed me so much. The bottom line is: nothing that he did “released” the blessings, it was God’s love for him that brought forth the provisions. If only we can start believing the simple gospel message: Jesus did everything for us. When you start believing that then you, out of gratitude, will want to become a better person and do the things the Word guides us to do. We are bombarded by preachers telling us to do their will and not the will of the Father. His will for us, is to accept that His Son paid the price in full. Once you really believe this, only then you will be free from this condemnation AND candy coated preaching. I so wish we will allow the Holy Spirit to be our only teacher. As it is said in the Word: you have to many teachers, there is only one and that is the Holy Spirit.

    God bless!

  2. I do agree with everything said on that article but read nothing I have not read or thought before, so from that point of view I don’t rate the article as highly as you do.

    There are so many of us declaring these truths. The question is are we going to do anything else other than speak up? We have to be more radical than that if the heart of today’s Western Church and the heart of its leaders is going to have a transplant. We cannot with one hand denounce the wrong that is taking place and with the other purchase more books, cds and be part of these conferences which are perpetuating the situation instead of bringing it to an end, and there are a great majority of us out there that accuse others of this celebrity/rock star type of preacher lifestyle but then we act in a way or support the way other individuals act which only serves to cement this deception further and to glorify their actions and words.

  3. Mark Elam May 8th 2013

    So much of the ‘preaching’ she describes involves how to get what YOU want from God. That’s why so many church people run to hear. This religious system bred them and it keeps them ‘fed’ and wanting more. The world sees right through it and is not at all interested. Sadly, they lump true Christians in with the false and we have to overcome that before we can minister to them.

  4. Larry May 8th 2013

    Moral Decline did not happen over night, this pleasing form has been wanted and many leaders have made big bucks. God cannot fail, He has a remedy, Go do a survey, He is slow to angry when their is ray of hope for just a few, He already knows the count! Judgement starts where He said it would Start. This is His Payback for Immoral Pay Days!

  5. GaryB May 8th 2013

    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

  6. Irmgard G. May 8th 2013

    I agree 100% with the article and have “preached” admonished spoken, shouted this message (to the same people many times) and yet, they choose not to listen, because the other Jesus is easier and of course false and leads them straight to hell, I’m sorry to say, but I will continue to say, ask Father, He knows and will let you know AND equip you to carry out stand firm love Him always, in HIS service Irmgard

  7. kathe May 8th 2013

    i don’t think i am “one of them” ; nor any of your readers….I’m real tired of people writing about things in poltically correct, not to offend anybody, GENERALITIES.

    ITS A WASTE OF TIME TO READ ABOUT OTHERS AND BE CLUELESS ABOUT THE SPECIFICS YOU ARE REFERRING TO THAT MAYBE I AM MISSING IN MY OWN WALK….

    i am not impressed with the arrogance of I’m not one of them and they are bad, when they can’t hang their hat onto any specifics that would cause them a shift and all I can do is be grateful I’m not “one of them”

    when an article lifts me up and puts “others” down, I have NOT gained /gleaned other than to feel grateful I’m not one of them .
    If I am being deceived i wouldn’t know it by reading this article. all i would know is to not be one of them, the deceived; without specifics…..

    and so goes the bashing justifying banter…….yesterdays general headlines for others who would probably not know this has even been written…

    give details / specifics ……..

  8. L. Alex Smith May 8th 2013

    Is this kind of message, even if it is published by a well-read Christian magazine, really going to affect the hearts and minds of those who read it, if they are caught up in this sort of stuff? I appreciate the content of the article, but it’s preaching to the choir for myself…and I don’t know if any who are in the “prosperity” mind-set would even read it, much less be impacted by it. It would take something on the order of another Great Depression to shatter the image that these preachers have set up…and even then, it will result in many back-sliding in disgruntlement, having their artificial plastic “faith” destroyed…and very few actually repenting of their error. What we need is to press in to the Lord so deeply, that it is not just “Warnings” that we give– although there is a place for that– but actually manifesting His heart and Spirit unto people (both “saved” and the heathen) that will draw them to the True Source of Life. The rich young ruler that Jesus confronted, had kept the Commandments; and the Bible says that “Jesus LOVED him, ” (Mark 10:21) and then laid the requirement to follow him on the line. But he, being grieved, went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Zaccheus had wealth, yet the right heart. Joseph of Arithamea had wealth, but the right heart, as apparently as did Nicodemus. Can we give out, or transmit from the Heart of the Lord, spiritually, this same kind of Love that also knows no compromise? Jesus showed the Woman at the Well that the Water of Life was by “drinking” from him, worshipping God in the spirit, and in truth. He told his disciples that he had “meat to eat that ye know not of” and that was to do the Will of the Father. Can we present this to all those, to CONTRAST the emptiness of “get what you want from God” with the TRUE “Living Water”– do we possess the Living Water within our own hearts to pour forth, as it says in John 7:37-39 “…this spake He of the Spirit…it shall flow out of your belly [the inner-most part of your being]” ? People want LIFE. But many don’t recognise it, and it gets diluted with this false gospel message. Yet, they DO want it. It can’t be boughten with money, yet it will cost you eveything. Do we really have what they want– whether or not they are willing to pay the price for it?

  9. MargieInOz May 8th 2013

    I wonder how many people would be upset if she had named names. Probably lose her job but if she is a watchman the warning is lacking essential information!.

  10. Very, very good article. I wish all of my brothers and sisters would understand English.

  11. Ejimanze May 8th 2013

    ‘Let both grow together until the harvest’ – Jesus ruled concerning the tares and the wheat. Sometimes we get so worked up about conditions that the Master Himself had foretold us will be at the Endtime. ‘And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.’ – Matthew 13:30

    Religious man always loves to play the role of policeman, judge and jury on spiritual matters. When you browse the blogs and websites of the religious creme de la creme in Jesus’s day on earth, what will you find as their opinion of Jesus?
    – This Man is a glutton and a winebibber!
    – This Man cohorts with publicans and sinners. There’s no way He can be the Messiah!
    – He has a devil! another leading Rabbi wrote with authority.
    – He casts out devils by Belzeebub!
    – You can see that the Man is a sinner, He does not keep the Sabbath! Can’t He do His phoney miracles on any of the six working day!?! a noted Rabbi wrote in anger.

    Don’t underrate common folks who flock to these stadiums.
    Notice that in Jesus’ day, the religious lumpen proletariat had more spiritual discernment than the religious illuminati, and flocked to Jesus the Saviour.

    If one has not learnt to hear for himself from Our Father and be led of the Spirit, then forget it – s/he would assuredly be deceived at these perilous times we are living in. For the tares and the wheat would be so close that if it were possible, the very elect would be deceived. ‘If it were possible’ means it is impossible to deceive the Elect. That being the case, the elect should ignore the tares and what they are up to and focus finally, brethren, on whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

  12. Penny May 8th 2013

    Hallelujah! This is a brilliant article and I am amazed that believers can knock it. It’s time we all woke up to what the true gospel is all about. I was actually writing something similar using those very scriptures myself just yesterday. But this is excellent! If Jennifer LeClaire is speaking and writing this she will be as unpopular as Leonard Ravenhill and numerous others. I would rather be unpopular and persecuted by man than dishonour my glorious Saviour by teaching half-truths. Well, done Jennifer there are many with you. Praise the Lord.

  13. Sam Boorse May 8th 2013

    Excellent word. Awesome to see that there are others hearing the true voice of God. Nevertheless, how do we preach this truth to the masses? How will they hear? There must be a preacher!!! It’s great that this message is published in a well known magazine, but where are those that will cry out in the desert? Where are those willing to sacrifice to get this message out? I so pray it could be me, but I have so much training to go through. I am also filled with hurt and anger for some of Gods so called people. Before I can preach, I need to see all as God sees them and not from my own eyes. Father please rise up the true prophets once again to proclaim your truth and your Name among the people. God Bless you all.

  14. mesha May 8th 2013

    Great article! Of late I have been thinking on Jesus’ words… beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod. In today’s time who would represent a Pharisee and who would represent Herod? Is it religious leaders and politicians? I’m just asking…

  15. HHHLGA May 8th 2013

    A message fit for our day. There was a time when the Holy Ghost drew men unto the preaching of the Word. When they arrived, they were ready to hear and obey God’s Voice. They now come because they are drawn of their own lusts, ready to sit the entertainment fence and have a good time.

  16. Tilman May 8th 2013

    This article is a direct hit, mentioning some of the worst facts in the body of Christ in these days. Although I agree with some of the critical statements in this Blog, I cannot see why it should be wrong to advise people.

  17. Penny May 8th 2013

    I am amazed. This article is not about those who said untrue things about Jesus and persecuted Him, it’s about those who are preaching and teaching a false gospel.
    Jesus repeatedly said ‘woe unto you…, ye fools…, you hypocrites…’ to those who should have been leading others to Him but weren’t, they were doing the opposite.
    And as has already been written in the article, Paul says emphatically in two consecutive verses that if ANYONE brings a different gospel, he is to be accursed. That is strong language.
    Do we have a love and concern for those who are being misled? Do we have a desire to reach them with the full truth? If not we are saying we have no real love for the Lord who died for our sins to deliver us from this evil world. His passion is for the lost and dying of the world – do we have His heartbeat?
    He only is the Way and the Truth and the Life – no other gospel will do.

  18. Terry May 8th 2013

    To MargieInOz: I’m with you. The article is pointless if names aren’t named. People should be warned of these false preachers directly. Otherwise it just another whiny opinon.

  19. So why the excitement? What is new in this post? Nothing! 11 Peter 2 and Jude
    Peter ended his discourse on this subject with an observation.
    “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” And at the end of chapter 3 some advise.
    Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be gory both now and for ever. Amen.
    Peter spoke about, it and went right on speaking the true Gospel, what more can we do?
    Pr Michael

  20. watchful May 8th 2013

    Yes Mercedes, quite a few nobodys have been saying these things for a while now. Well whether somebody or nobody, to God alone be the glory, it’s refreshing to see the message is getting out. But I would like to comment that the danger is every bit as present in the little Zoars as well, and not just the larger venues. There are little rock stars as well as big ones…..well actually the big ones usually start out small don’t they. Big or small, flesh is flesh, and being what it is we can’t afford to relax our vigilance one minute and focus only on the big guys just because of being in smaller circumstances. When Lot was called out of Sodom, he was told to go directly to the mountains (of God) and not to stop at “little Sodom”………..the sad result of disobeying that admonishment is what happened later in the mountains.

  21. Jane Milam May 8th 2013

    ABSOLUTE TRUTH! The bottom line….this is the deception of the last days…and it is the foundation of the apostate or false church arising. There is NO CROSS, NO LOSS, NO DAILY DYING , and NO true POWER of the SPIRIT because there is NO TRUE JESUS! My constant prayer is that the TRUTH will be raised us “in the streets” and that the false foundation that the American Church is building upon will be exposed and that there will be a MASS EXODUS from false structures, false teachers, false prophets, and FALSE SIGNS and WONDERS! It is time to CRY ALOUD and SPARE NOT! The FLOOD of the Rev. 12 has been released to “carry away” from the truth and the real CHRIST! It is time to SPEAK as ORACLES of GOD and use the WORD as has been done in this article to EXPOSE….praying that some will begin to question what they are hearing and giving their lives to that is false. The lack of the study if the WORD is the weakness of the American “church” and we have lived upon the words of men….men/women “leaders” who do not even HONOR the WORD of GOD…come out from the FALSE STRUCTURES and the FALSE GOSPELS and would HEARALD the DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND….COME INTO the ARC!!!! The ARC is the truth, the true PRESENCE OF CHRIST, and the life of a spirit BIRTHED DISCIPLE…who is daily dying, following the word, filled with the HOLY ( yes HOLY!) GHOST….AND living the crucified life in the power of the Spirit…and speaking TRUTH every man with his neighbor. It is a time of WARNING in the AMERICAN “church” and judgement is in the House of the LORD! The danger now is those who refuse to acknowledge, love and embrace the truth of HIS WORD….are beginning to be GIVEN OVER TO STRONG DELUSION….TO BELIVE THE LIE!

  22. I agree, you should name the ones preaching false doctrine. How else would you know? How about “When Rock-Star Gospel Artists Preach Another Jesus” Take 8 time Dove award winner, author of many well known Gospel songs, Joel Hemphill. of The Hemphill’s. Many are not aware that Hemphill attacks and denies the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Trinity. Many of his books are filled with cutting statements on these two cardinal teachings of the Christian faith. I know I wouldn’t be very happy if I went to a Hemphill concert, and come to find out that the Jesus of the Hemphill’s, is not the Jesus of Holy Scripture, the Historic Christian faith, nor the Christian faith today. I now see Hemphill’s BLASPHEMOUS materials on many cult sites. One anti-Deity of Christ-anti-Trinitarian-anti-Hell site which promote Hemphill’s materials is http://www.21stcr.org Another pretty well known Gospel artist who also denies the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ is Jerry Bennett. He has an article on this site as well. Another concern is Christian Radio/TV. Many (NOT ALL), only seem to care if the check clears the bank. They will air just about anyone. Never in my life have I seen so much confusion and a lack of discernment and a who cares attitude in all my life. One program “Born To Win” with Ronald L Dart has now been cancelled from over twenty Christian radio stations due to his unorthodox teachings and his ties to Herbert W Armstrong. Sad, many other Christian stations will air his program. Why? Money? I wonder? Yes, you can be duped! If you are not sure of a ministry or a teacher, take a little time and do some research.

  23. Praise the Lord for this corrective word, may it pierce the hearts of many.

  24. Kenny Atnip May 8th 2013

    In the scripture portion below we see why this has happened, God has sent it to them because they have not loved the truth but seek the pleasures of sin.

    2nd Thessalonians 2:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Understanding this truth is one of the keys to understanding the ways of God and his work in these last days.

    God tests all and only those who take full advantage of the works which Christ has performed for us will be saved. There will be no excusing of sin, we are called to overcome and empowered to do so.

  25. MargieInOz May 8th 2013

    To name a few: Kenny, Benny, Joycie and Gloria but don’t forget Mike, Joel, TD and CPW. Paula, Beth, Sid and Patricia not excluding Toddy and Rick, Sharon, Stacey, Cindy and …………feel free to add some

  26. Linda May 8th 2013

    A Rock Star is a Rock Star, some do it on TV others do it in Magazines. Some teach about Jesus, some bash others for profit! Ever notice there is ads for the writer’s books just after their names, but God forbid someone sells a book or CD on TV? It is the truth that exposes the false, let’s hear some truth instead of what you think is wrong and make it is context please!

    The scriptures quoted are talking about the false gospel, only that is what is being promoted here. God was not impressed with all they told Him “they did” for Him, he didn’t know them because they spent their time being focused on what “they did or didn’t do”, that is not dying to self, that is being totally focus on yourself and pride! I am not saying some are not off on the side of the road, there are some in every doctrine, including your own. But when you put all people in a general category, you then cause people to run in fear from hearing any part of the Truth. Well let’s use Grace, people are now so fearful of the Grace message (not that every one is saved, unless they receive Jesus), but a pure and simple faith in what Jesus did, not what we do to be right with God! Most, not all Grace teachers put allll the emphasis on Jesus, Jesus’ Blood, Jesus crucified, Jesus’ finished work (not our work to help him with our staying saved) and Jesus resurrected, what Christ did, what is wrong with teaching Christ and what He actually “gave” you, not what you feel you have to work for? Wouldn’t coming against that be anti-Christ? This is what Paul preached and “warned” against, those that got saved by Grace, but think they stayed that way, by what they did from 30 seconds on of getting saved! Those that mixed Grace and their own works, Faith is what pleases God, not jumping through hoops, if that were so, we won’t be meeting Abraham because he is saved by Grace through Faith, he didn’t have the hoops back then, it was Grace before the law, just like it is now, it was hundreds of years before the hoops came.

    The people who take off the glasses of “their works of righteousness” of having to help Jesus out with their own salvation and begin to look through the Lens of “Jesus’ finished works of Righteousness”. taking the focus off of themselves and putting the focus on where it should be JESUS, then the mystery’s opened to them and they will begin to read the Word through the Holy Spirit instead of religious man’s interpretation.

    When you put your eyes on Jesus, instead of yourself, those sins begin to fall off and are replaced by the “fruit of the Spirit’ of self-control”! (Yes there will be those who go hog wild after being released from the bondage of the rules, but it was always in their heart, they were just acting like it wasn’t, but they will begin to see fruit as they KNOW who they are in Christ) Man made fruit is not the real deal, it is cloned and creates nothing more than imposter’s, those that just “act” like Jesus, not ones who actually have Jesus “living through them”! Once you get the focus off of yourself and your own performance, THEN Jesus can begin to truly live His Life through you and that “fruit of the Spirit’ of self-control” will begin to grow!

    But most people get a few words of Truth and because that is not what they were “taught” they stop right there instead of listening or reading on to get the context with the help of the Holy Spirit!

    So instead of trying to expose what you think is darkness with more darkness otherwise known as bashing, expose it with the Light, The Word, Jesus who IS Grace and Truth and the dark will be dispelled! Those who are being deceived, need to learn Grace and Truth, not how to bash, only make sure that Truth, is Grace and Truth not Grace and your own works of righteousness! Then and only then will people begin to really understand just how much our Father loves us (and not for just the 30 seconds after salvation before that first sin thought happens) and just how much Jesus did for us and that it is truly a GIFT from them, that can only be received by FAITH! Righteousness through Faith in Christ for salvation is one of those elementary teachings Paul told us about. Graduating from the elementary, maturing is finding the mystery, is finding out how you truly stay saved and it is the same way, and that is KNOWING Jesus, KNOWING that you stay saved through His Righteousness through the Faith in Him alone and not having faith in yourself! So let’s get past the elementary and mature into the meatier things by totally putting alll your Faith in His Righteousness! I saw a quote and I believe it was from Billy Graham’s grandson: Jesus + you = nothing and Jesus + nothing = Everything. I choose to be nothing so HE CAN BE EVERYTHING!

  27. Peter May 8th 2013

    Hi Kath, you’ve probably heard the “grace” message, right? Then you will know how they say that if you try to please God, you are under the law and trying to earn your salvation by works etc. They are then so down on the Law, and I am talking about the Ten Commandments, or the moral laws of God. Yet, Jesus said that nor jot nor tittle of the law would pass away, and Paul and John both said that to keep the commandments was the most important thing.
    If you mention the commandments to a grace teacher, they look at you like a fool, who knows nothing.
    We are not under the laws contained in the ordinances of man, but the Law of God, will stand forever. It is this Law by which we will all be judged.
    Satan cannot do anything without God’s permission, and when the law came, it outlined what sin was and the curse that went with it.
    This gave Satan a legal right to bring the curse upon us, according to God’s own law, which is Holy, righteous and good.
    Now Satan knows exactly how to tempt our flesh and when we try to follow the law, we fail, because our flesh is so weak.
    However, now with the Spirit, we can fulfill the law and put the deeds of the flesh to death. In this way, we are being sanctified and purified and being made holy, just like our Father.
    Some of the spurious claims of the grace movement, like “We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.”, this is a reference Paul makes to himself and the other Apostles when coming to the Corinthians.
    That is to say, that they came as ambassadors of God, even as God to the Corinthians, to tell them what God required of them, especially in regard to sin.
    God’s righteousness, refers to His judgement and justice, as He is a righteous judge and cannot judge otherwise. Jesus righteousness was His obedience to the Father, even unto death.
    Our rightousness, comes from believing in Jesus, that He died for our sins and rose from the dead, that we might have eternal life.
    We are not “the righteousness of God”, we cannot judge anyone.
    Also, before we come to the Faith, we are all counted under the Old Covenant, we all need a sacrifice for our sin. When we come to Jesus, all our PAST sins are forgiven, or our former way of life etc., not our present or future sin.
    This is dealt with under the New Covenant, where we come before the Throne of God and ask for grace and mercy when we repent.
    This is what Jesus spoke of, when He said to seek first for the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, that we seek for God’s judgement and justice, when we repent, and receive our just reward.
    Sometimes, this may include discipline, but always includes forgiveness.
    It also has the affect that because we are found not guilty, by way of repentance, the accusation of the enemy and its consequences, which can be death, is paid back to the accuser, according to Deuteronomy 19:18-21. (This is against the enemy, not people.)
    God’s word is a sword against the enemy, learn to use it well.
    Paul says in 2Cor. 3 that when you look at the Law through the flesh, you are looking through a veil, and that a veil lays over your heart, when you look at the Law from the Spirit, the veil is taken away.
    The Law, or Commandments, are there for our protection, not our harm, God gave them to us to know what not to do.
    Just as you would warn your child from running into the street, did God warn us from the curse that comes from breaking the Commandments.
    In talking about the Lords supper in 1Cor 11:27-34, it says that if we don’t judge ourselves, then God will judge us, and that if we don’t judge ourselves then we can become weak and sick and even die.
    Such is the power of sin. It says in 1 Cor. 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Repentance is a gift of grace, and we should use it often.
    If you believe the grace camp, you never have to repent again.
    The choice is yours, but don’t believe what you are being preached, test it out in the Word for yourself. Remember, the Spirit and the Word will always agree.
    Cheers.

  28. Yes, the weeds and tares are going to grow together; however, Paul most certainly named names (1 Tim 1:18-20; 2 Tim 2:16-18), and he even called out Peter in front of a gathering (Gal 2:11-14). Now, I understand that LeClaire could not do this on Charisma as some of sponsors fit the description of her post.

    However, LeClaire is mired in a false movement herself, namely IHOP. IHOP promotes the practices of Catholic mystics, but, more importantly, promotes the unbiblical, actually anti-biblical, ‘Tabernacle of David’ teaching, taking Scripture out of context to do so. IHOP/Bickle follows the model of George Warnock’s Feast of Tabernacles – a promotion of the heretical Latter Rain movement – towards this end.

    This is not to mention Bickle’s continued promotion of his “foundation” to include Kansas City Fellowship and “prophets” Bob Jones and Paul Cain.

    Pot, meet kettle.

  29. Kathleen in WA State May 8th 2013

    I just have to say how much I appreciate the hard-hitting tone & content of the article without its being a lynching. I am sometimes appalled at the mean-spirited “outing” of certain teachers/preachers ~ as if to verbally stone or behead them. We can & should be undaunted truth tellers without wearing a henchman’s garb. The author walked that fine line with powerful effect.

    Great article!

  30. Thea du Plessis May 8th 2013

    I do believe that some of these teachers really believe that they are busy with God’s work and are not out to deceive their people. But unfortunately a lack of knowledge and discernment will not be an excuse. Let us pray that they might come to knowledge and understanding.

  31. Anthony Donaghey May 8th 2013

    Good fruit cannot come from a bad tree…
    Getting truth from Charisma Magazine is like getting truth from a serpent in a garden of perfection; what Peter called Parasoxsuan; to lay truth next to error in order to get one to swallow enough error to spiritually kill is what is really in operation here with the writers of this magazine; a magazine that has promoted almost every false teacher and doctrine ever to crawl from out of the bark from; Hinn to Copeland to whoever happens to be raiding the coffers this year to build their own personal empire here on earth.
    Charisma has long, long passed the point of not being able to be trusted; it has tainted itself again and again; been taken to the cleaners more often than Lady Gaga’s wardrobe and will, without a doubt, be promoting yet more deceptions being fashioned in the mind of the father of the lie in the very near future.
    When will we learn!

  32. Penny May 8th 2013

    Why do we need to name names? If we have that relationship with Jesus where His word dwells in us richly, (Col 3 v 16) then it is clear for us to see.

  33. Anthony Donaghey May 8th 2013

    Naming Names…
    Many Christians will, no doubt, become offended by the naming of names when it comes to those who preach or prophesy falsely; believing those that have been named to be authentic brothers of the writer of such matters under Christ. However. I strongly suggest that this offence has really come about due to a misunderstanding of the Biblical teaching concerning touching not God’s anointed.
    If naming the leaders or denominations that are teaching unbiblical doctrines or prophesying falsely, – and thus leading untold millions into Hell -, is disobeying the ‘touch not my anointed’ doctrines found throughout the Bible then we have to ask why the Prophets, the Apostles and even Jesus Himself did so.
    All of these men, including God incarnate, did exactly this.
    The Prophet Samuel and King David, for instance, spoke openly concerning the disobedience of King Saul, Paul and the other Apostles did it against those who were teaching false doctrines, and despite the fact that Caiaphas and Annas were brothers of Jesus under the Law, their names have all been written down in the Bible.
    Those teaching and practicing false doctrines have been named in the book we all claim to be receiving our teachings from!
    (How else do we all know who they are and what they did?)
    All of which simply means that ‘touch not my anointed’ does not mean to avoid naming the names of those who are teaching unbiblical doctrines, otherwise the Prophets, the Apostles, and even Jesus Himself are all guilty of committing this sin, and as Jesus is regarded by authentic believers of being completely sinless, then this cannot mean that it is a sin to name names under these Biblical guidelines, hence, naming names is clearly not covered by the ‘touch not my anointed’ doctrines found throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
    (This phrase actually comes from the Biblical episodes where David was trying to escape Saul’s murderous wrath and concerns David not killing Saul when he had a chance to in the cave where Saul was sleeping, and since I personally do not intend to actually kill those I am mentioning, then this obviously does not come under the ‘touch not my anointed’ principle found throughout the Bible).
    In fact, a Biblical precedent has been laid down for believers to do this very thing when it comes to protecting the sheep against the sheep come in wolves clothing or the hirelings who are currently feeding the sheep to those wolves.
    It might make us feel uncomfortable to do so, and believe you me, I do not enjoy naming names one little bit, however, the Bible teaches it, I believe it, and all of us who believe in the Word of God have to adhere to it whenever or however it arises in our generation.
    Will it cause division?
    Yes it most certainly will, it’s supposed to! Paul states quite clearly that heresy is supposed to divide so that those who are approved of by God will be known among the assembly of the people claiming to believe in God’s Holy Anointed One.
    To put it another way If I am aware that a practicing paedophile is living in your street and you want to protect your children, I can do one of two things: a) I can tell you that there is someone, that I cannot name, who is a paedophile and that he lives ‘somewhere’ on your street, or b) I can tell you exactly who it is and where he lives, (I’m not talking about judging or oppressing the man under any circumstances, I’m talking about you being able to protect your children).
    Example a) is going to have some pretty dire and confusing results, not knowing who this person is will eventually make you paranoid beyond belief and no man up and down the street will be seen as safe, you might even emotionally hurt your children by being overly protective, not allowing them to play on the street, in their garden or anywhere were you are not hovering over them.
    Example b) on the other hand releases you from all the stress and worry and paranoia found in example a), you know the name of the guy and you keep your children away from him.
    Which is the more prudent suggestion here?
    Another point also worth mentioning concerns those who fall into the classification of false prophets.
    Today many of the most popular telly-evangelists who have prophesised about events that have not come to pass are still being followed by millions the world over.
    Some people say of Benny Hinn, for instance, that “We know he gets some things wrong, but he’s still a powerful man of God bringing thousands upon thousands to Jesus.”
    (Which Jesus?)
    However if someone calling himself a Prophet of God got a single prophesy wrong during the Old Testament period he was quickly pointed out and stoned to death.
    Being firmly in the New Testament period, by the grace of God, we no longer stone false prophets to death, however, the standard of the precision of God inspired prophesies has in no way been lowered since those ancient of days.
    It is an undeniable truth that the measure of a true Prophet of God lies in the fact that he will never utter a prophesy that does not come to pass, and as can be seen in the Bible; the timing of a prophesy is equally important to the prophesy itself.
    Can you imagine if Jesus prophecy concerning Peter’s denial didn’t happen until a couple of hours after the rooster had crowed?
    And if it was within the will of God for false prophets to be pointed out in order to be stoned to death, then how can it possibly be wrong today to point them out in order that the Children of God not be deceived into losing their eternal salvation, (if that is at all possible – another debate for another time), through the unbiblical doctrines that inevitably spill from off the tongues of men prophesying falsely…
    Shalom-Agape
    AGD

  34. The article was well written and although not new, the message was worthy of being repeated. There is a place and time for watchmen…before the battle. The watchmen’s job is to sound the alarm for the soldiers to ready for battle. Watchmen warn, they don’t necessarily fix the problem. They can defend the garrison of course but that is not their main function. he battle is fought by the soldiers…another breed of believer altogether perhaps. We each have our callings and purpose. If we focus on our own purpose and perfect that then join with the body of Christ in a corporate effort everything that is required will be done.

    Yes, the false gospel is out there big time. So how do we deal with it? Pray, get our relationship with God on target and listen to His voice for instructions. People want what they want and the Bible told us how it would be.These alternative gospels to the Truth didn’t just begin. This wave of apostasy is no surprise. What it is confusing…to the saved and unsaved alike. That is exactly what it was meant to do but I warn all disciples of Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus The Christ, to concentrate less on calling names and what other people are preaching and focus more on your own spiritual walk…what YOU are doing that is not pleasing to the Father? What pagan traditions and habits have you taken up and refuse to let go? Consider how you can walk tighter and righter in the Spirit of the Most High God? Trust me, that takes up most of our energy and concentration. If we walk in the true spirit, if the true Body of Christ, which by the way will only be a remnant, shows the world what it really looks like then nothing more has to said. The Lord, Jesus already did.

  35. DonaldN May 8th 2013

    Matt 15:12-14
    12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
    13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
    14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

    The way Jesus operated is to preach the truth. That’s all. Let those who accept it be blessed by it. Let those who would rather follow the blind leaders remain blind themselves. They will eventually fall into a ditch. Jesus did not say to run after them and try to convince them that they are following the wrong preacher.

    He said leave them alone.

    Could subjects like this only be a distraction for us so that we will spend time whining and commenting rather than in the Word and preaching the truth to those who will hear it.

  36. The false teachers are the judgment of God on the Church, on the professing Christians who hate the Truth and love the lie.

    They are the leaven (which is bad), they are the birds of the air(bad) who are sitting atop the branches of the great tree of Christendom, they are the flood that comes after the woman, they are the evil entities what spew out of the bottomless pit, they are those being spoken of in Isaiah 28, they are the barf that is sloshed on all the tables in every Church (Isaiah28), they are the abomination of desolation,…..they ARE Joel’s army of wicked attacking, destructive creatures……. and we could go on with the metaphors.

    Judgment and tribulation for the saints, now. Separation in process now. The tares will LOVE these false teachers, they love not the truth, (they love themselves, the “image” they have made), they have been given to their delusion. The wheat will not listen to them or follow them, they love the Truth. They love Jesus. Proceed on, saints, in love, bearing spiritual fruit, doing His will, and endure faithfully on to the end.

  37. Bob M. May 8th 2013

    I think the writer is missing the point when she refers to a “different gospel”. When Paul refers to a different gospel, its in the context where some form of Works was added to the Gospel in order to complete it (circumcision, etc.) . Then, its no longer the Gospel…its actually just another form of The Law.

    The Gospel completed/replaced The Law, and this “Good News” could more appropriately be summed up by the terms Grace and Mercy. Our salvation is a free gift, and received by Faith. Pure. Simple. Rather than strive to comply with The Law, fail, and receive the punishment (death) we deserve as a result of our sin, Christ took it all for us. So, we are fully Justified before God by Christ…alone. That’s the Gospel.

    We can do nothing to “earn” our own salvation, no matter how nobel our efforts or how big our accomplishments. In my opinion, the writer has confused or blended the issues of Justification and Sanctification. She actually seems more concerned with the lack of teaching regarding our response to receiving the Gospel…or the life-long process of Sanctification. I.e. how we live our lives after we’re Justified.

    But, make no mistake. No one can self-sanctify themselves enough to be Justified before God. Christ COMPLETELY did the work for us. And, that’s The Gospel. No more, no less. If anyone is preaching some Work you must do or not do to receive (or keep) your salvation, then they’re preaching a “different gospel”.

  38. Peter, you said
    If you believe the grace camp, you never have to repent again.

    Peter, that is not true of the “so called” grace camp.

    Context, my friend.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    It should be of the utmost importance of every Christian, to confess our sins, the very moment we are aware that we have sinned.

    Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Blessings.

  39. Ronda May 8th 2013

    Excellent article on false teachers. I find another scripture that many overlook on false teachers is John 10:10.
    “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy”…..Most have taken this scripture to mean satan but thief in this context is referring to false teachers. The Greek meaning of thief adds another level to the meaning of John 10:10.
    Strong’s Number: 2812
    kleÑpthv Word Origin
    from (2813)
    Transliterated Kleptes

    Definition: an embezzler, pilferer
    the name is transferred to false teachers, who do not care to instruct men, but abuse their confidence for their own gain

    Walking in the simplicity of Christ is where we need to be. He truly did come to give us abundant life but we have put our own picture in the frame of Christ’s meaning of abundant life.

  40. David Markham May 8th 2013

    I feel this article is very generic in nature. Read it again and you will find it very short of specific false doctrines being taught. It just names a few. It also talks about a “different Jesus”, but gives no real specifics about what that means. If you are going to be direct, then give more specific examples. Poorly written article in my opinion. These kinds of articles need to be written, but lets be clear what we are talking about..

  41. Amen….Bob M

    That is it in a nut shell.

    Blessings.

  42. kelling May 8th 2013

    Very well said Peter, Yashua defeats Satan with 3 verses from Duet: So yes their is a legal binding from Yahweh on the word which of course is Yashua in the flesh, what part of him do the Hyper Grace people want to get rid of? Satan tests, as in Job, only to the extent that Yah allows based on his merit, then in the end Yah responds, much as he will do to us. So in a sense Job’s heart is further opened by Yah and his merit is rewarded along with Grace as Job’s friends are blessed by him. So Yashua along with the Holy spirit makes these same intercessions for us as our hearts are opened to the spirit of the law which you state and is the greatest law called love! Much shalom in Yashua; Dr. David.

  43. Bob M.,

    While Paul was speaking of the Judaizers who wished to add the Law to the Gospel in Galatians, Paul had a different thing in mind in 2 Corinthians (see 11:1-15), which, in the full context of this 2nd letter to the Corinthians, is false teaching of different kinds. To my understanding, this would include all those mentioned in this particular article. This is not to mention Paul’s warnings in his 2 letters to Timothy.

  44. Linda May 8th 2013

    Peter, you bring up 1 Corinthians 11:27-34, but you really need to start at verse 23! I was just listen to this teaching below on Sunday, I listened to the 8:30 service, but I usually listen to both, but haven’t had time yet. It is talking about examining ourselves. He starts preaching about 20 minutes in. I will warn you this is one of those blasphemous Grace teachers that dare to preach Jesus. This young man started preaching at 15 and was a pentecostal preacher until he was nearly 30 and now preaches Grace, the man called Jesus. I would like you to listen “all” the way through and tell me what is wrong with it, don’t just listen to 5 minutes and give your thoughts! I know I will never take communion in the same way I have been taught for 50 years after receiving salvation at 9 years old!

    http://new.livestream.com/paulwhiteministries/paulwhiteministries/videos/18088027?origin=Digest&mixpanel_id=f1f47c5c14549-012b15f7e-43681f0a-2ee000-f1f47c5c15a55&acc_id=2700334&medium=email

  45. I’m DEEPLY THANKFUL for this article, PRAISE FATHER GOD for this insight, and for the other articles like ‘5-keys to Discernment’ by Andrew Stromm and ‘9 bad Charismatic habits’ by Lee Grady……
    Just wondering: can’t we perhaps find another ‘new name’ instead of ‘Charismatics’, with a new definition to it, to differentiate between that which is false in this Movement and that which is PURE, TRUTHFUL and RIGHTEOUS…..? The roots of the C.M. is not pure at all and it is busy making a caricature of the TRUE CHRIST and the PURE GOSPEL!!!!!
    Can’t we ask for ideas on this, e.g. ‘Act’s Believers’ or other synonyms in this line? We don’t want to be associated with the Charismatic-tag anymore…….
    Please, can you give us names of books to read on Revivals in the past that was TRULY from GOD with manifestations by the HOLY SPIRIT ALONE, and not through the Kundalini-spirit?????
    Thank you VERY MUCH and be strengthened and blessed!!!!!!!

  46. Kathleen in WA State May 8th 2013

    I see no disconnect between identifying & exposing the false teachers/gospel and doing so without a venom-laced tongue. It can, and should be done ~ all the while remembering the admonition:

    “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17).

    Oh how the flesh does love to be “right”. I, for one, value the methods some use to speak out against such dangerous diatribes without the use of vitriol & hyper-criticism. At the end of the day, it’s about the unlimited love of God ever-reaching to these errant ones in our midst, some who are true (albeit sorely deceived & deceiving) believers.

    Better that we also preach to the gullible believers who do not yet know God’s counsel for themselves (for a myriad reasons), encouraging everyone to know the truth in order to spot & flee from error.

  47. Andrew, you are about to lose me. Almost every topic these days seems to turn into an opportunity for the grace crowd to hijack the discussion and turn it into a referendum on the gospel as they understand it. Which is false btw. They need to be identified as false, warned to stop and excluded if necessary.

  48. Jim Rinker May 8th 2013

    It’s all part of God’s plan. “Let the dead buy the dead, come and follow me!”

  49. 1 Pet 1:10 The prophets, who prophesied of the grace (divine blessing) which was intended for you, searched and inquired earnestly about this salvation. (AMP)

    Blessings.

  50. Alison S May 8th 2013

    Preach it sister! May the Eternal God and Father continue to put His words in your mouth.

  51. David Markham May 8th 2013

    Hey Davo, I love how you lump all the Grace crowd together. Then you say it’s false. with no examples as to what exactly is false. Be careful not to dismiss so quickly. Maybe somewhere in there, God has something to say to you…

  52. AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!! Thank you, God Almighty! Thank you, Ms. Leclaire and Bro. Strom for sharing! God, keep me awake that I not deceive anyone, nor deceive myself, nor be deceived!

  53. Randy Ailie May 8th 2013

    Andrew,
    Thanks for sending this on through all your email contacts. This is one of the cleanest words I have heard in quite a while, especially considering where it was printed. And yeah, many of us on this side of the fence have heard it before. But there are many who haven’t. And for those of us who have, hopefully we look inward to see any stains in ourselves that this most undoubtedly is speaking to as we ho hum the word the Lord surely is speaking to all of us. For the real truth is, we cannot police anyone but ourselves. May our Lord come and clean up his church! I believe and fear great tribulation is coming. That fire will test and purify everything. False gospels and easy faith always fall by the wayside when they are tested in real life.

  54. If we want to examine HOW to warn the church.
    JESUS is the best example
    Then HIS apostels.
    when writing to the church, and exposing false prophets
    or how to live …………..HOW did they warn?
    How did paul warn the churches about daily living
    and how did paul warn the churches about false prophets.
    HOW did JESUS warn about daily living
    and about false prophets.
    HOW did JUDE, HOW DID JAMES
    Even JOHN, how often he said LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in them.
    OPINIONS will DIE, when TRUTH is READ.
    and TRUTH will emgerge in the heart, to fully know
    HOW to correct and teach the church.
    YET, many of today, worry, worry, and worry and overkill
    when ONE has the truth in them to WARN.
    Also and do take SERIOUS NOTE.
    when in all the letters to churchs, did they glorify monies,
    talk about having GODS BEST in you, in reference to this world and its things. THEY NEVER DID IT.
    LET HE who GLORIES, glory in that HE KNOWS GOD.
    not his riches, not anything of this world.
    Take note, the masses of latter day apostels and churches
    JOY in this world, its things, its cares , its pride of life, how we can BE SOMEBODY,
    the early church ONLY JOYED in that they knew CHRIST
    and had salavtion. NOT only that,
    they warned against such things.
    as did JESUS.
    this abundant life many speak of and tell of, they make out to be
    with being better off with earthly treasures.
    BUT what did JESUS say about the abundant life.
    LETS see. BEWARE of covetousness
    FOR a mans LIFE consists not in the ABUNDANCE of what he posses.
    REST assured if paul, peter, any of the apostels were here today.
    HOW WOULD THEY WARN?
    IF you want to know HOW they would.
    I STRONLGY SUGGEST READING HOW THEY DID
    in their lettters. and yet today
    many call this TEETH and OFFENSIVE.
    memeber my frirends how i warned us about SENSUAL.

  55. many lift not a finger……………..oh how heavy, how very heavy the work is…………..shall i not sit and just slumber and wait……….
    YET all the while cast a arm at those who do stand against evil…….
    MY…………………..how this simply ought not to be.
    Swine, liar, brood of vipers, men of belial,
    Adulterers,,,,,,,,,,,,,these are JUST some of the words
    the CHURCH used to indentify false men.
    DONT BELIEVE ME………………..THEN TEST IT.
    GO have a lil read and may eyes be opened.
    NOW i am not saying go out and yell at people.
    WHAT i am saying is……………LET THESE alone
    when they are warning………………
    SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT.
    IF we want to be fellowhelpers of the TRUTH, as john would say,
    then PRAY FOR THEM, and help them . amen.
    BUT oppose them not.
    This job of warning and teaching, is meant mainly for seasoned men in CHRIST, WORD, and DOCTRINE, having senses fully exercised. But any can and should evangelize CHRIST, by living and then by word. by example.

  56. as men we should be meek.
    DID you all know in the bible it says moses was meekest.
    well, OF HIS DAY his time.
    CHRIST WAS PERFECT,
    HOWEVER CHRIST was MEEKEST of all.
    DID CHRIST confront the evils of men, with a smile
    and coffee? DID he speak of HOW you can be the BEST YOU.
    or did he say KILL the FLESH………….
    DID CHRIST ever speak or warn of sin……………..
    DID he ever warn of HELLFIRE.
    HOW were HIS WORDS, when he spoke and warned of how
    terrible the destruction would be in these cities.
    WHAT names did he call some.
    MY POINT is………………………
    the church has grown SENSUAL, politically motivated
    money inspired, lukewarm.
    IS IT TOO LATE FOR THESE………
    NOT according to GOD.
    BUT heres GODS ANSWER
    to the LUKEWARM………………….REPENT.that is an always in all cases. I COUNSEL THEE TO BUY OF ME GOLD TRIED IN THE FIRE, that ye may be RICH.
    ALL THAT I LOVE i CHASTEN and scourge.
    BE ZEALOUS THEREFORE AND REPENT.
    HERES another question.
    HOW did GOD speak to the SEVEN CHURCHES.
    HOW did GOD WARN. telling about the reward for those who overcome by faith, versus the PUNISHMENT
    for failure to comply to HIS WORD.
    ARE we learning. WHY i so oftne say GO BACK TO THE BIBLE. OPINOINS would die………….TRUTH will be birthed in knowlegde and eyes opened.
    IF we want to know TRUTH, READ the bible
    the HOLY SPIRIT will give UNDERSTANING
    to all who SEEK GOD WITH THE WHOLE HEART.
    AMEN>

  57. God, keep me awake that I not deceive anyone, nor deceive myself, nor be deceived!

    Sister Dorethea……………
    NOW THIS IS A WONDERFUL PRAYER FOR ALL TO
    TAKE TO HEART.
    THIS IS DEEP TRUTH. That is a HUMBLE and very TRUTHFUL PRAYER.
    FOR WERE IT NOT FOR GODS GRACE
    and HIS CONTINUAL GRACE UPON US teaching us to deny all ungodliness, and wordly lusts, and to be looking and hastening unto CHRIST…………………ALL WOULD FAIL.
    see……………..I AM A GRACE PREACHER.
    ITS the false version of GRACE I OPPOSE and will do so
    by HIS TRUE GRACE, till i am either dead and lie stinking in the soil, or till HE COME. BY HIS GRACE may NO LAMB
    compromise the SIMPLE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPLE OF CHRIST and GODS DESIRE FOR MEN TO COME TO REPENTANCE. AMEN>
    so i say………….BE LOOKING DILIGENTLY, not part time
    DILIGENTLY lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.
    THANKS writer of hebrews for confirming what JESUS SAID.
    CONTINUE IN ME, if not ye cast out.
    ONLY IN HIM, GRACE, CAN WE ENDURE TILL THE END.
    BUT let us be faithful stewards of this grace freely given us in CHRIST. if one sees a bro or sis in sin……………..PULL THEM OUT……………..know ye saved a soul from death.
    TIME TO PREACH BIBLE TRUTH in CHRIST
    all else is but opinions of men.
    IF the opinion of man is TRUTH BASED then i hear
    OTHERWISE……………………..NOT A BIT. amen.
    THERE shall be no compromising our GODS EVERY WORD.
    my prayer is TODAY and from this day FORWARD
    may a false preacher have NO REST, and be wearied in all he does, may his riches of this world FAIL, and may he
    not be heard……………..TILL HE REPENT and COME TO THE TRUTH AND SAVING KNOWLEGE OF CHRIST.
    where not a WORD of GOD be altered, but rathered GLORIFIED and lived within us upon our hearts. AMEN>
    THUS my PRAYER FOR THEM…………………is THEY REPENT
    and COME TO CHRIST before its too late if GOD peradventure will give repentance. THAT is in the bible TOO.
    WE must speak as did CHRIST, amen and learn of the HOLY DOCTRINE as well. NOT the UNHOLY DOCTRINE of men of belial and the world who have SOLD out the LAMB
    or are no longer CONTENT with the true bread which gives liFE unto the world. And have rather gone a whoring after egypt all over again.

  58. AMEN and AMEN !

  59. One of the difficulties of the whole mess is *mixture*. Most if not all of these false teachers do say good and true things. I read some of it on Twitter almost every day. But it is more a heartfelt warning system, a check in the spirit, if you will, when some of these people speak….the serpent beguiled Eve with his CRAFTINESS….we have to be discerning ALL the time even with the best of bible teachers. Not everyone gets it right all the time, and we must be a discerning people.

    For those who feel that the article is just so-so, I think Andrew is feeling encouraged that a widely read magazine like Charisma, that has been mixed up in much of the chaos, is publishing an article like this. It IS encouraging….perhaps the pendulum will swing, back towards the real gospel, in our time!

  60. TheDude May 8th 2013

    Does anyone really read all those very long posts above?

  61. TheDude May 8th 2013

    Our job is that of messenger, not salesman. Different job description, different duties. A watchman on the wall warns, he doesn’t convince. Only the Holy Spirit can convince one of anything. Whether someone listens to the message and changes is not the barometer of success of a messenger. A messenger succeeds when he delivers the message.

    The very nature of deception implies that those being deceived don’t know they are being deceived. Only the Holy Spirit can remove the scales from their eyes so that they can see the true Jesus. This is what happened to Paul the apostle. Until God removes the scales from their eyes, it is impossible for them to see the truth.

  62. It is encouraging to find an article from Charisma making bold Biblical statements about the FALSE Prophets and Teachers that are abounding in the Church today, however, if you are a Watchman as this author claims I pray her and Charisma’s boldness increase more than just describing the false actions. A Watchman should also be warning the flock specifically who are the WOLVES in sheep’s clothing otherwise the sheep will still wander into the pack and be eaten alive…of course that is after they have been fleeced.

  63. I posted the below on FB yesterday and was amazed when I received this today from Andrew!

    Today sitting in my one and only chair in the L.R. thanking the Lord for it waiting for Him to tell me to go or to stay, I was thinking and talking to Him about how polluted we have become in the Christian world and how so many people have bought into it.

    So much is, read this book, listen to this sermon or go here to this conference or this…..Now I have read my share of books too. Mostly testimonies from the good ole’ Brothers and Sisters from different centuries. And wow! My faith was increased.

    But I have had to distance myself from a few due to their pushing their favorites of today on me and I mean pushing to the point of quenching the Spirit. Not to have fellowship with me but to push their ideas etc. on me. I have listened to this person and that person they suggest and was not interested at all.

    Sometimes I think people listen to others more than they do to the Lord. When was the last time someone sat down and read the Bible and prayed and listened to the Lord speak to them for an hour or two? But will take to run here and there to get this and that from a person. (Not talking about Church on Sunday). Just a thought.

    I was reading in Matthew 24:23 – 26 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great sings and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out: or “Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. The Words of Jesus.

    So, I asked the Holy Spirit how will we know. And my answer was pray for discernment, stay quiet and close to Me. Ask Me where and when to go here and there and dont get too fragmented. That was a good Word!

    I guess the bottom line here is discernment! Be still and know I am God, be in the Word & prayer & wait to hear as we ask Him.

    God help us all to seek You while You may be found Lord Jesus! Pour out a hunger and thirst upon us Lord Jesus – a passion for You and You alone.

  64. Peter May 8th 2013

    It would appear Jennifer LeClaire is voicing what some of us already know for some time….All those who protest Jennifer has not named names, whats the problem? It doesnt take much to work out who are the goat preachers if we correctly apply the scriptures.

    Even Jesus spoke about the scribes and the Pharisees without naming names….Matthew 23:1 – 33 I guess most people who were there would have known who he was talking about.

    Will Jennifers article change things? For those who are drawn into false theology hook line and sinker, it will be business as usual. The problem is these false teachers have a lot of air time on TV and influence alot of people. .

    As the Lord Jesus said – “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. …John 10:27

  65. Not sure how much the article will change peoples minds and I dont even try actually. But from experience I beleive that God will finish the good work He has begun in those who are His and that if any of us are in wrong thinking etc. He will bring them out. I beleive He has done that with many already. And I have learned and still learning it has to do with prayer. Everything has to do with prayer. My prayers have done more good than if I were to preach to anyone. Praying the Holy Spirit will lift the veil of deception etc. has and does work. So, my prayer is that – along with kindness – that He will deliver His children from the snares and counterfeits and they would long for Truth.

    Now to those who call themselves Watchmen – be careful that pride does not come in and you become mean spirited filled up with pride. There may have been a time you were deceived too but the Lord was faithful to bring you out as we pray He will do for others.

  66. False apostles, false prophets, false teachers, false shepherds, false brethren, false doctrine, false words. What they all share is a common attitude toward sin. This is how they all become lumped together as false. Compromise of sin, practice of sin, endorsement of sin, enslavement to sin, continuation in practice of sin in the dividing line between the true and the false. The starting point in repent!! You must forsake sin to be saved in the end. It is futile to believe, if you don’t repent. The gospel that allows permission to sin is a false gospel. Salvation in sin is no salvation. It is a deception and a lie. Salvation from sin is the gospel. Jesus save His people from their sins, not in their sins. This is the false grace gospel, believing alone, while being enslaved to sin. Absorbed in a theology that twists grace as a way to justify sin as a way of life as a christians.

    John 8
    31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
    32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
    33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
    36So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

    Gospel truth means freedom from sin, as far Jesus teaches. There is no other gospel in the Bible. Any other gospel is false as Jesus represents it. Jesus doesn’t allow for compromise with sin. To commit sin means you are enslaved to sin. Truth demands freedom from sin. This is our goal as christians. Jesus warns against slavery to sin. It will result in being excluded from God.

    1Tim 2
    3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    You also must be saved and come to the know the truth. This is more than just believing. This is the truth as Jesus teaches it.

    2Tim 3
    25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
    26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

    Heb 10
    26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

    James 5
    19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
    20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    2Tim 3
    7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

    2Tim 4
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
    4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

    2Pet 2
    1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
    2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
    3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

    There are dozens more scriptures that teach about the truth as Jesus teaches us. The truth is we must accept the truth of the gospel as Jesus tells us.

  67. HHHLGA May 8th 2013

    TheDude,

    Many don’t read the lengthy posts.

  68. Neville May 8th 2013

    She is wrong about people going to hell as it is not what you are supposed to know that gets you to heaven but what you do with what you know. These people do what they know even though it is not quite correct and on that they will be judged not on what we know or declare to be truth.
    Otherwise no one would get to heaven as we do not know all we need to know to be able to do it but we can all hear The Spirit telling us what to do
    It is how they listened to the Holy Spirit that matters not what people say they should have heard and done

  69. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 8th 2013

    Neville,

    re: no one would get to heaven as we do not know all we need to know to be able to do it

    I give a word of encouragement and confirmation. You have made an excellent point here.

    I was once put in a ‘group’ against my will. It was a forum of many good and spiritual folks, though, they did (some) believe we had to have the fine points/extreme details of our regeneration down completely. We had to understand exactly what God was doing in us, before it was actually applied in a new birth. I was surprised, because I don’t believe we (any of us) will ever understand all he has done in and to us, this side of heaven. Thanks, Neville.

  70. Amen!

  71. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 8th 2013

    sheri

    re: Everything has to do with prayer.

    Thankyou for your post, and emphasis on the critical!, Prayer!

    So many times prayer is the last resort after fretting and lamenting. It should be the first, not the last. Thankyou for reminding all of us.

  72. Heather Anne May 8th 2013

    Thank you for posting this article! No it’s content is not new BUT I am thankful that the writer is ‘speaking up’ about what is going on! Thank you for your faithful ‘contending for the faith’ and for ‘sounding the alarm’! God bless you and yours!

  73. Jane Milan in her post said it all, as have many others here.

    God says “Come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you”. Come away from people who serve IDOLATRY and a False Gospel. If we don’t, God won’t receive us.

    The bottom line is, whenever the Holy Spirit shows up, so does the counterfeit -satan. That is why we should covet the gift of spiritual discernment. And we ask ourselves (as in all the similar themes gone before on this website) why are people duped by these false gospel preachers/teachers and prophets. We know that in every generation of Israeli Jews (Doctrine of the Remnant) and also now with Church, there will be a remnant of true believers -the rest are either unsaved or head into apostasy. Even back in Paul’s time apostasy was alive and well.

    But what makes people get ‘hooked’ into error, when others do not. Also when the ‘others’ try and tell them the truth, they just don’t get it either -even in the light of Scripture given them!

    Probably many things but the main ones may be :
    Not really saved by the grace of Christ -saved to the church doctrine, or a man’s charisma/control
    Idols in their own hearts -not consecrated to the Lord
    Have not DIED to self
    Need healing and deliverance -blocks to understanding truth
    God Himself adds to their delusion

    We do indeed need to pray for these false gospel leaders -but we pray the prayers of JEREMIAH -to bring down the errors because they are taking many ‘sheep’ down too.

    Also people gravitate to such false gospel preachers because of those very idols in their own hearts -they both deserve each other.

    In a sense these high flying false gospel leaders are like the secular leaders -Hitlers/Stalin/Hussein and so on -they all aim to destroy the people and rob from them. Both groups have the art of manipulation and charisma -almost witchcraft. They are under satan, maybe they don’t realise it but some know they are.

    God bless

  74. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 8th 2013

    TheDude, re: A messenger succeeds when he delivers the message.

    Thankyou for this simple truth. This was always the complete mission of the angels and prophets (a voice in wilderness John) and. all prophets before and after, They were messengers giving God’s words, thoughts and sometimes actions. They were ‘complete’ in their calling to deliver His messages. What a noble task! Thankyou

  75. David May 8th 2013

    Mike Bickle’s article in Charisma Magazine exposing the popular “distorted grace” message is also a good article.

  76. Marie May 8th 2013

    Thank the Lord that another christian voice is being revealed these things about the wolves, who are distorting scripture to fit into the culture, rather than Christ having an effect on the culture.

    Will we see many more come out and speak out? If Paul could see how these mega-stars live, how they live, how they scam their listeners with their wares, selling their “my revelation from the Lord”. or “how to be blessed more fully” or “10 ways to get more power and anointing” books. How can a true christian keep pumping out book after book for profit and sell a word they believe they receive from God? Would Paul have his letters to the churches, inspired by the Holy Spirit, printed in bulk (penned by scribes) and SOLD?

    To sell the gospel, to sell an anointed word to the Church, to sell a sermon, (unless it is sold to cover the expense of the CD or tape, for non-profit), to sell christian music, to sell sell sell any of the precious precious inspiration, words of faith, words of prophecy, words of wisdom, any warnings to the church for money, it’s to me, plainly sinful and anti-Christ. If a blood-bought child of God goes out and turns his ministry into a trademark, an institution, a doctrinal system, or any medium like a christian cable channel that makes profit and enriches the creators, it is anathema. No one should exploit and market the Word of God, or the anointing of God.

    I pray more and more realize how disgusting this is and not only for the ‘christian celebrities’ but for regular pastors, ministers who are bewitched by making a living off of tending the Lord’s sheep.

  77. Paul FC May 8th 2013

    After reading the many quite critical posts here, I post with trepidation. I appreciate Kathleen in WA States articulate and wise sounding contributions and I agree that we do need to have the right Spirit if as watchmen we are flagging up concerns over contemporary messages from the pulpit . My belief is that we should be in a place of grace and humility to preach the true gospel message with fire of Christ’s love in our hearts for the saved and the unsaved. This approach would surely be the true antidote to the false.

    However I do concur with some on here regarding the article in that is does seem vague and unspecific. The author exhibits an obvious clarity in her own mind regarding the true and false gospel, yet she must assume that since none are named we are all aware of who the false teachers are. This begs the question, why warn those of us who already can discern what is true and false. Who is the target audience? It feels to me the article is too careful not to name names (Churches, movements and individuals etc), which leaves me wondering whether this article is no more than whistling in the wind.

  78. Sidah May 8th 2013

    Unfortunately, the article doesn’t provide an illustration of false gospel messages. What preachers and false gospel is being referred to here?

  79. chas351 May 8th 2013

    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son.

    1 John 4:3
    but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    1 John 2:18
    Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come.

  80. TICK…………………………………..TOCK…………….
    what are many going to say when the last tick is done.
    What are many going to say…………..ON THAT DAY.
    JESUS never said many would be saved……………….
    HE SAID FEW.
    WHY……………………because they would sooner serve self
    than GOD……………..
    TICK………..tock………..
    TIME draws short. IT DID in LOTTS days too
    and many mocked him, like they do me……….
    THEN it was ALL OVER.
    some can mock and say how do i discern HIS COMING IS NIGH
    TO WHICH I SAY…………………HOW IS IT YOU CANNOT SEEE
    the signs of the times……..

  81. Marie May 8th 2013

    In response to my earlier post, I want to reassure my pastor brethren and evangelists here that my comment wasn’t addressed to true apostles who preach and depend on the goodness of the Body, where they need to be fed and housed and need transportation. I know that such as these can’t to their jobs without the financial support.

    And it’s true that a prophet is not received in his own town, and this is no doubt why evangelists go beyond their borders. But, many settled pastors of churches spend their church finances on traveling abroad and it’s known that they don’t even know the families who live in their church’s neighborhood, nor sometimes do they care. This is a subject that the church doesn’t want to discuss, because it puts the clergy in a bind, where they might actually have to be available for their community and take care of the community that God gave them. Let each pastor minister to the people God gave him and stop wasting time, energy and resources on conventions, overseas mission trips, etc.

  82. GOD gave the way out of eternal death……….
    and the way INTO eternal life.
    TIS ONLY IN JESUS
    and as JOHN and others quoated
    WE SHOULD WALK as DID HE.
    So………………………HOW DID HE WALK.
    NOT like many of today, not at all.
    A man who teaches for reward, for hire, for gain, for money etc
    WILL NEVER TEACH THE TRUE GOSPLE , IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. TRUTH………………divides
    and divisons…………………….mean LESS MONEY in the pulpit.
    THEY have went in the way of CAIN……………..and ran greedily after the error of balim………..FOR REWARD………………
    COME TO THE GOD WHO CREATED ALL THINGS
    COME TO CHRIST
    GET OUT FROM AMONG the men of belial………….
    who have CREATED an image to suit the carnal lusts of men.
    I warn.
    i encourage too.
    WHATEVER THE SPIRIT LEADS ME TO DO. amen.

  83. GaryB May 8th 2013

    The Dude,

    The super long posts I don’t think anyone reads. :)

  84. Paul FC May 8th 2013

    randall lowrey…. Please, why??

  85. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 8th 2013

    re: Now to those who call themselves Watchmen – be careful that pride does not come in and you become mean spirited filled up with pride.

    – Good advice to all concerning pride’s deception. Beware thinking we stand, lest we fall to pride. I wonder if that may have been the sin which manifest in 3 John 1:9. Pride puffs up and demands recognition. That sin has it’s origin way back, with Lucifer being lifted up by pride to consider himself worthy of exaltation and adulation. I do believe this spirit one of the most deceiving and unrecognized.

  86. 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Jesus is coming soon to pre trib rapture His Church.

    Blessings,

  87. There is a move occurring turning us back to the truth… :-)

    Thank You Jesus… :-)

    A correct understanding of Your Grace – an understanding of our identity, acceptance and inheritance in Christ – which leads us to surrender ourselves to You for Your Purposes and for Your Glory…

    The lake of fire and brimstone is real and will be the eternal, conscious, dwelling place of all who do not believe in Jesus…

    When we believe in Jesus we receive Him as Lord…

    If there is no reception of Jesus as Lord then we have not believed in Him…

    For that is who He is – Lord – and that is what He becomes in our lives by the Power of His Holy Spirit living within us…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Glorify Your Name in all the earth… :-)

  88. Sidah May 8th 2013

    Can someone please tell me the content of the false gospel that’s being preached?

  89. A gospel which means that you don’t need to receive Jesus as Lord, “Lord Jesus” as Romans 10:9-10 tell us, is a false gospel Sidah… :-)

    When I received Christ Jesus I remember clearly understanding that He had done something to mean that I wouldn’t need to go to hell (the lake of fire and brimstone) but I also clearly knew that I was a sinner (and that without Christ I would go to hell) and that I was handing my “bundle of sin” (all of it) to Him and that He would deal with it (take me up on that, i.e. that I’d need to give “area by area” as He directed)…

    I still remember that clearly now… I was five at the time in Adelaide, Australia… :-)

    And He has (taken me up on it and dealt with me “area by area” since that time)…

    He’s been doing a very good job of getting rid of sin in my life… :-)

    And focusing me on Himself…

    On His Beauty and on His Perfection…

    On His Purpose for my existence in His world…

    He – Jesus Christ – is Lord and He is God…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  90. Sidah May 9th 2013

    Thanks Andrew, yes, totally agree (I’m an Adeladian as well :) So there are a number of people professing to be Christians that are preaching that Jesus isn’t the Way, Truth and Life and ‘no-one comes to the Father but by Me?’ They are not preaching that sin separates us from God and that Christ was crucified to reconcile us with God? What are they preaching then? I think we need to warn people of the specifics.

  91. Cool, my family was over in Adelaide at the time, I went to Highgate Primary School for a year, We’re Kiwi’s and returned home after my first year at Primary School but I have good memories of that night as I lay on my bed and felt God’s Presence in my room (my sister was asleep in a bed next to me but I felt it was just “me and God”)… Love in the Lord, Andrew

    Yes, it seems there a movement “afoot” which is promising great experiences, lots of happiness, abundance, good feelings, especially good feelings but without giving ourselves to the Lord… just receiving a spirit…

    “I’m receiving a spirit”, they say but the spirit which they are receiving is a deceiving spirit…

    When we receive Christ Jesus as Lord He gives us His Holy Spirit on the inside…

    Just like in marriage – we give ourselves to our partners and then we enjoy intimacy with them…

    This “gospel” says, “Come and enjoy intimacy with a spirit at no cost and no commitment”…

    “Feel good”…

    No strings attached…

    The true gospel is free and all blessings come after the commitment to Christ…

    Yes, it is true that the Lord heals all (not just believers) as a testimony to them of His love – to lead them to Christ – but all the blessings of Abraham are for those who believe – we are blessed with Abraham the believer – and Abraham demonstrated his faith in God by submitting to God’s will and offering up his most treasured possession on an altar – this is what showed God that he truly feared (reverenced and revered) God – Abraham looked forward to Jesus’ day (He saw what Jesus would achieve on the cross for him and he believed in advance in Jesus)…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  92. Sidah May 9th 2013

    Thanks Andrew :)

  93. Roger (NZ) May 9th 2013

    Sidah – there is a difficulty in fully answering the valid question that you ask – for this reason – there are many false gospels, and many variations of each. Most will have scriptures in them, yet will twist the truths intended by those scriptures, to present a ?, or a ‘Hath God said..?’

    These false gospels will also lead to a false Jesus, or false christ – as Jesus fully warned us would happen in these times.

    May I suggest the better way is to seek the real Christ Jesus, who is Lord, and Creator, was crucified, shedding His blood as a sinless sacrifice, for the redemption of mankind, was then resurrected from the dead, and has ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven.

    The Bible is the only gospel that speaks of this one, true, Jesus – who lives today and for evermore.

    It is so easy to be distracted by all the false, and to focus on that – in so doing we lose track of the truth, of the real Jesus Christ, Lord of all.

    The path truly is narrow, through the real Lord Jesus, the only way to Almighty God – yet the abundance of false gospels and false christs and jesus’s is confirmation that the way to destruction is very wide..

    Sidah – are you asking about who is Lord Jesus, the Messiah of God..? or do you already know Him as your personal Saviour and Lord..?

    May you be blessed in your search, your seeking, and your walk with Christ Jesus as Lord of your life.

    In His love,
    Roger

  94. Serenity May 9th 2013

    A true message out of Charisma Mag, praise the Lord !

    Paul wrote about some in his day, saying, “Many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, the enemies of the cross of the Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god the belly, and their glory is in their shame, who mind the earthly things.”
    (Phil. 3 : 18-19.)

    So many unnamed believers who had duped themselves. What a tragedy today with so many ‘preachers’ making a living from duping gullible ‘believers’. ‘Out of the heart’ comes the willingness to go along with it.

    God led my family and me out of charismatic fellowships twenty-plus years ago. I couldn’t understand why. Catching up with my companions from those days, I couldn’t believe how shallow and gullible they now seemed. I’d been in the wilderness where I’d had to put down roots of my own, while they’d been feeding on candyfloss. Little by little they’d been led into murky waters, without perceiving it. So sad.

    The authoress does mention doctrines to be wary of – eg, the ‘no-hell’ and ‘sin is ok’ teachings so prevalent.
    The biggest cause is people who just won’t read (and meditate on) God’s beautiful Word – the Holy Bible.

    As she says,”I don’t want anyone’s blood on my hands”.
    Therefore, as the Lord leads, we have got to speak up/write up the truth while there is still opportunity.

    Interesting comments, as usual. Thanks Andrew & all.

  95. Kevin May 9th 2013

    The warnings and verses quoted in the article are the truth and a very real problem.

    If reading those verses and warnings triggers any reaction of fear, doubt,uncertainty, defensiveness or anger within , then know that these feelings don’t come from the real Jesus , and know that this points to having received the wrong spirit.

    What to do next ?

    Be willing to surrender to the real Jesus all you think you know and have received in His name.

    Ask Him to set you free from all deception that is not of His truth.

    Ask Him to lead you to and show you the truth.

    Pick up the Bible asking for the guidance and leading of the Holy Spirit and start reading for yourselves what the real gospel is , and what the real Jesus says.

    Seek Him and you will find Him

    Ask Him and you will receive

    Praise you Lord Jesus Christ

    for you are the way and the truth and the life !

  96. Vlmallas May 9th 2013

    How many of the readers on this blog have
    Really been born again ? I mean really been
    Born of the water and of the spirit? Not only
    Do we need the REAL Gospel preached, but
    We need a REAL Biblical response! In the book
    Of Acts we are Comanded to Repent, be Baptized
    In the name of Jesus FOR the remission of
    Sin and we will receive the Gift of the Holy
    Ghost! It goes on to say This Promise is for you
    And your children and for all who are afar off
    Even for as many of you that the Lord shall call.
    Acts 2:38-39. If you have not obeyed this then
    Please find a church that will Baptize you In
    The name of Jesus!! While there wer people who
    Received the Holy Ghost before being baptized
    (see acts chapter 10) Peter comands those
    Gentile believers to be Baptized as well-when Paul
    Answered the jailers question-what must I do to
    Be saved-he answered Believe on the Lord
    Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved….And that
    Same hour they were all Baptized!. (see acts 16:30-33)
    Paul finding certain disciples(who believe)
    Asked if they had received the Holy Ghost since
    They believed-replied-we have not so much as heard
    Whether there was any Holy Ghost-Paul asked
    How where you Baptized? They replied unto
    John’s baptism -Paul said you should believe
    On him which should come after John, that is
    On Jesus Christ-Immediatley they were Baptized
    In the name of the Lord!! (see Acts 19:2-5)
    These are examples of Biblical responses to
    The Gospel!! God Bless you and lead you into
    The truth that is transforming!!

  97. Barry Schmidt May 9th 2013

    For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. (1 Corinthians 4:20 NASB)

    It has become really spiritually trendy to TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK about everything false in the church these days. That’s why Charisma is doing it to now. They have always put their finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing then run out in front of everyone and do the trendy thing.

    Many people on this post think they are being the most spiritual who can best Blab off at the mouth about what is false and what is sin BIT THEY HAVE NO POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO CHANGE ANY OF IT.

    Friends it doesn’t take make us spiritual to see what’s wrong . Any spiritual dwarf can see what’s wrong.

    WHERE’S THE BEEF!!!!
    Every wanna be could see Goliath was an evil dog. where are the little David’s who can believe God to change what is wrong and kill the Goliath in the church in this hour?

  98. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Vlmallas,

    RE:
    How many of the readers on this blog have
    Really been born again ? I mean really been
    Born of the water and of the spirit? Not only
    Do we need the REAL Gospel preached, but
    We need a REAL Biblical response! In the book
    Of Acts we are Commanded to Repent, be Baptized
    In the name of Jesus FOR the remission of
    Sin and we will receive the Gift of the Holy
    Ghost!

    — Amen! I would like your entire post on every open forum!
    I would love to see each person give personal testimony to God’s working of regeneration in each of their lives. Nothing is more exciting than hearing how God brought salvation to each one he has chosen. Thanks for this challenge to everyone. God Bless!

  99. Hi Barry, If you want to make contact with me just click on my user name brother, I’d love to work with you on whatever it is that’s on your heart or to encourage you to commence whatever it is that’s on your heart for the Lord, Love you brother, Andrew… :-)

  100. Hi Zululander, Same applies to you brother, If you’ve got something on your heart – a promise the Lord has made you – then I’d love to support you to see it come to fruition, Love you brother, Andrew… :-)

  101. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Andrew J Horton,

    I appreciated how you explained the Gospel via God’s working the gospel within you! That was truly an awesome answer to her Sidah’s question. You didn’t elaborate on the false, just the true.

    ie. Can someone please tell me the content of the false gospel that’s being preached?

  102. chas351 May 9th 2013
  103. Thanks HHHLGA, Love you sister… :-)

  104. chas351 May 9th 2013

    Nice Preaching Todd!!

    Jesus
    Holy Spirit
    Blood of Jesus
    Anointing with Oil

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy4p-Pe9nrk

  105. Vlmallas May 9th 2013

    The real Gospel is explained in 1Cor 15:1-4 it is the
    good news
    Of God’s work on the cross to wash away our sins.
    As I stated before, there is a Real response to this
    Message-following Christ in death by repentance,
    Being burried with Him in baptism, and being
    Raised to newness of life by the infilling of
    The Holy Spirit-this is the full Gospel message.
    Anything short of this is not. If you would like scrip-true
    To back this up id be happy to post. -blessings

  106. Hi Andrew and fellow posters, I seldomly comment on these articles on your site but from time to time I do. I wan in my enthusiasm for the debate that goes on here as I don’t see much point. That’s not to say I wouldn’t agree with much of it but just that we talk why the church lays in waste.
    I read the agreeable words of discernment of falsehood, and see the encouraging signs of a remnant on here that “holds to the truth” while the body sits in deception.
    But, what I don’t see is the discernment of why. Why is the church in deception? why have hirelings come in un-challenged? why does Satan have a strong foothold in the church? I thought Satan wasn’t meant to prevail against the church? to me it looks like he is (ultimately he isn’t)
    Where are the comments on the reason for the state of the body? a simple answer that I am sure is held by all is “sin” is in the camp and I would agree….and?…..
    I’ll stop the pandering there and get to the crux, the answer is spiritual “captivity”.
    When Christ came to Israel what did he say when he was in the synagogue in nazareth? “the spirit of the Lord is upon me to…”proclaim liberty to the captives” why would the people of God be in captivity? as a result of the curses of Deuteronomy 28 to the people of God if they didn’t walk uprightly before them. In Isaiah 42 the “people of God” are in “prison houses”. Yes it is due to sin, and normally gross sin from the leadership. So God punishes his children and allows them to go into captivity and places them under a “brass” heaven “Deuteronomy 28.23. Ever wondered why we complain endlessly and we pray endlessly for change to the state of the body and the falsehood, and on the whole nothing changes? answer: Brass heaven.
    What we need to pray for is the end of our judgement and the releasing from spiritual captivity. God wants to restore his people, but as his judgement are righteous we must complete our punishment first.
    I am glad to tell you that the punishment is almost complete. But continue to pray that the lord will come and restore and rebuild as he has done many times before with his people.

  107. Barry Schmidt May 9th 2013

    Andrew Horton -thank you so much for your kind offer. I totally sense the Spirit of Jesus in all your posts. The vision and inextinguishable passion the Lord has given me is so simple I feel embarrassed sharing it but I sense the Spirit pushing me to share it on this post.

    Here it is:
    To know as much of Jesus Christ Himself in and through my life as is humanly possible- His mind, His heart, His righteousness and His power- not through anything of my own devotion, self effort or self will- but through His grace alone.

    I am so desperate that if the Lord would give you any grace to help me with that I would be all over it Brother! I feel not just a little embarrassed having to expose my heart in this public post but I have to say that while words can never describe the intensity of this ever increasing passion I can only say I feel like screaming out continually: Give me more of Jesus in my life or give me death!!!
    I do not share on this site for any other reason (God knows I am far too busy to be sharing on this site for some personal gain) but I feel I have to for now to abide in Jesus – and if I don’t abide I can’t get more of Him – and I will do anything to get more of him.

  108. Hallelujah Barry, You are indeed a kindred spirit – this is also my prayer – to know more of Jesus…

    I’ve found that by asking Him to come nearer to me – by Presencing Himself in my room or where I work or wherever I am – has been greatly encouraging to me…

    I know that His Holy Spirit is in me and living through me – as He establishes His truth more and more in my heart – but I’ve found that “clothed with Power from on High” side to be really awesome and increasing just recently…

    I pray Lord that You would give Barry all that you have given me and more – more of Your Presence Lord around Barry – clothing him with Power from on High and filling him with Your Holy Spirit more and more and more…

    Bring Revival in Barry’s life Lord – an ever increasing hunger to know You more and to be like You – more and more and more – and never satisfied – never let him be satisfied Lord…

    Praise You Jesus…

    And wherever he goes – clothed with Power from on High – let those who come in contact with him sense the Presence of Jesus all around him and ask him to give them a reason for the hope that he has and then open his mouth to speak of Jesus and His Love and His Grace and His Holiness and His Provision for sin…

    Praise You Jesus…

    You are an Evangelist Barry and the Lord will confirm that for you…

    Praise You Jesus…

    You will lead many to Christ – many to Christ – He will honour your commitment – your desire – to know Him alone – and nothing else and the “overflow” will be salvation to many countless multitudes of people who He places in your path…

    He will accelerate you and your usefulness to Him…

    As you go lower and wait on Him, He will accelerate you forwards in the Fullness of the Holy Spirit…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Wherever you go He will draw all men to Jesus through you…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Baptise Barry in the Holy Spirit and with Fire Lord and let him be consumed for Your Glory – consumed by Your Glory and never let him be the same again…

    I pray this in the Mighty Name of Jesus…

    Amen…

    Bless you brother…

    Love,

    Andrew

  109. Heal HHHLGA right now Lord of whatever it is that ails her – let it go now in Jesus Name… Thank You Jesus – let it go now in Jesus Name… Let the healing power of God burst over her head right now, in the Mighty Name of Jesus and let her be healed…

    I see the anointing oil being poured out all over your head sister… I don’t have a clue what it is that ails you but I know that He is healing you right now…

    Praise You Jesus, Exalt Your Name in all the earth…

    And use HHHLGA for Your Glory Lord – in strength and power and in dignity…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Lift her up Lord that she might Glorify Your Name…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Lift her up Lord… :-)

    Bless you sister…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  110. To say the church is a mess, lies in waste, is fallen corrupt, etc. etc. et al.. Please someone> Someone tell me, which church are we talking about?
    The false one?
    Or the church of God?
    If the false one, it has always been so deceiving being deceived, and will ’til Jesus’ return. growing worse and worse.
    If the Holy church of God, whom Jesus birthed, note: He is The Rock, the Head of the church, Chief corner stone the Living Word. Then He spoke this, of this, His church!
    “THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT”
    Please forgive the caps i am not shouting at you all even though i feel like raising my voice in righteous despair.
    Do we believe what He said? or not? If yes stop all the wining and dispute over evil works Let us rather get on with:- Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. This is a commandment of The Lord.

    Love to you all.
    Pr Michael

  111. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Michael,

    Please someone> Someone tell me, which church are we talking about? Quote……………….

    As far as I can tell its the organized religion of men.

    After a while it wearies the soul to keep rehashing it over and over. I think this is why some do not stay on thread topic.

    GaryB

  112. Many people have stayed with spiritually deceived or misguided churches and leaders of para church ministries, in the hope of influencing them to the path of truth. It has been done with love, with much fasting and intercessory prayer. However I have rarely heard that these people were truly successful and in fact these people were often persecuted, usually driven out of the organisation. Church abuse or persecution is so common especialloy from leaders who have been exposed. Of course the Apostle Paul just took it all in his stride, as did Jesus and so must we – “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness”.

    So we still speak the truth in love when we see deception
    operating in the Body of Christ, but we also get on with our own lives, witnessing to the world around us and beyond, helping the poor and needy, healing the sick and so on. We don’t remain in limbo just because the church at large seems to be heading into apostasy. We pick up wounded and abused ones that stagger out of the deception of religion, but we continue to draw people to Jesus with a passion, because every moment counts in these end times.

    I met a little elderly lady, a firebrand for Jesus, on a pension, barely enough money to pay the bus fare get to the local Apostolic Church. She challenged her young pastor when he became controlling and abusive of his congregation, saying that was not of God. She did it in a motherly and nurturing way. Every time she goes there now he makes a beeline to ‘belittle’ and ‘intimidate’ her, in the hope she will leave. But she feels to stay for now and intercede for the man and the church. Her strength just exposes his weaknesses -maybe she can even change this man, by her humility and weakness. If not I am sure she will hear the Holy Spirit say “Wipe your feet on the mat and leave there”.

    ‘Religion’ is not always very pretty for sure………..

  113. Bless this little elderly lady Lord and give her Your Heart for the man who is called “pastor” of this congregation… Open his eyes to see You – in all Your Splendour Lord and transform him and this entire congregation into Your Image as they seek Your Face together…

    It only takes one…

    She will turn the tide – do not let her give up…

    Let her continue until she gets her prize in Jesus Name…

    And she will…

    Let this local congregation be one – no matter how many need to leave – no matter what changes need to be made – let all who remain be one – in Jesus – and in His will…

    Bind them together in unity in You Lord and in Your Truth…

    In Jesus Name,

    Amen…

  114. Tx Gary B, if you are correct, then the organized religion of men is just that.and will be dealt with in His own way and time.
    I do not see any where in the NT where Jesus came to save organizations!
    Rather the message was to individuals and they are to remain of one mind in one church of one faith etc.
    The Boy scouts may have members who are Bible Christians but it is not, never will be a church! One can not put new wine on old wine-skins both are lost!
    Well may we hang up a cross “name” His name, get civic recognition, call ourselves christians it is of no effect whatever..
    The guys are not pastors they are wolves the organizations mentioned in the article by Jennifer LeClaire are in my book not churches of the living God.!
    Wrong song
    Different drum beat
    Sounding their own trumpet.
    Leave them alone, blind leaders of the blind.
    Want to follow the Lord? then the message is to come out from them and be separate!.
    Pr Michael

  115. kathe May 9th 2013

    i’m not against the “false teachers” that’s between them and God. they are deceived and spreading it about.

    seems we are full of labels a lot with names being thrown about too casually. caution

    what i really want to know if not the subject of false teachings ( that they exist ) but the substance of the teaching and why it is false….

    ex. teaching……blah blah blah; what is false about it (what is the error ) and what is the truth…..

    believing names is just that believing names; believing lies is a different story. its so subtle these days that its hard to not be taken away and deceived. a lot of the deceived trust the teacher and do not challenge or doubt what they hear unless it is blantantly obvious to be wrong.

    how many today trust Jesus and are deceived ? Without specific exposure the false belief lives within a person and they live by their faith inwhat they have been taught. If doubts arise they don’t have a counterpoint to hold onto and they leave….hurt, deceived, no longer trusting, etc. How often scripture is used to support a false teaching and done well. people have been taught to be teachable and trust their teachers, doctors etc.
    so we have awarenesses of false teachings.. great but what is false when it sounds so good…

    i;m not on a false teacher hunt, but i am wanting pure truth to pull me and others out of mud holes.

  116. Kate if you search the internet it is full of deception and mens ideas the Truth is there, like a needle in a hay stack that seems to be a strategy of the enemy. If you ask man then many and varied are the answeres, whom then can you trust,.. since God has chosen men to speak His truth!
    I believe Acts 17 has a good answer!
    “The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.- Therefore many of them believed;” and received the answer God gave in Acts 2 and that is the answer He still gives today.
    Following that experience – rebirth – the Holy Ghost will teach then us by opening the Word (Truth) to our understanding, He will not add to or take away from the Word of God.
    Pr Michael

  117. Marilyn Crow May 9th 2013

    Great point Kathe & just what I want to talk about.

    And Barry Schmidt, I like the bit about that everyone can see the `Goliath,` without. However it is the `Goliath` within that is much more difficult to see. It is so deceptive & insidious for it seeks to rob us of our true inheritance in the Lord.

    This `Goliath` within the ranks desires to pull our understanding of Christ down to our level & make Him seem just a `super` man amongst us. `Sensual,` says Randall, touchie, feelie, trying to get us to accept an earthly inheritance.

    Now I would like to address how we have this false teaching in our midst. The main reason (besides man`s carnal nature) is that 3 scriptures have been tampered with. So let`s look at them carefully to really see what God says. Each concern who is coming with Christ (not for the Body) but to bring judgment on the nations.

    GOD`S TRUTH.

    Jude 14. `Enoch prophesied…`Behold, the Lord cometh with 10,000 of His HOLY ONES.`

    This relates to Moses words –
    Deut. 33: 2 `The Lord came from Sinai…. & He came with 10,000`s of HOLY ONES.`

    David in the Psalms tells us quite clearly of this event & who are these HOLY ONES.
    Ps. 68:17 `The chariots of God are 20,000, even 1,000`s of ANGELS. The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy place.`

    Thus we see Jude & Deut.`s HOLY ONES are ANGELS. Then in

    Zech. 14: 5 `Then the Lord my God will come & all the HOLY ONES with HIm.`

    Jesus tells us who these HOLY ONES are that come with HIm.
    Matt. 16: 27 `For the Son of Man is going to come….with His ANGELS.`

    This all seems straightforward, however there has been some tampering with God`s Word.

    Jude 14. Truth, `HOLY ONES, ANGELS,` changed to `saints.`
    Deut. 33:2 Truth, `HOLY ONES, ANGELS, changed to `saints.`
    Zech.14:5 Truth, `HOLY ONES, ANGELS,` changed to `saints.`

    In each of these 3 scriptures people have changed the true meaning HOLY ONES, ANGELS, to another meaning. This deception by the enemy has deluded some believers into accepting an earthly inheritance.

    We need to address these `changes,` because they will rob us of our true inheritance in Christ.

    `Our Hope …..is in HEAVEN. ` Col 1:5
    `Our Citizenship …..is in HEAVEN.` Phil. 3: 20
    `Our Inheritance ……is in HEAVEN.` 1 Peter 1: 4

    The article said `it`s not difficult to recognise false doctrine if you are a student of the word.` but when words are changed to mean entirely different things it creates confusion in people. People feel threatened & attack others instead of clearly looking at God`s word.

    Let`s take up those stones as `little David`s,` as Barry suggested, against `Goliath,` & not against the messenger.

    Marilyn.

  118. Kevin May 9th 2013

    kathe,

    The most effective counterpoint is the written word of God.

    When we know what is written in what context and we have the Holy Spirit we will know truth from error.

    The best thing anyone can do is to start reading the bible, literally reading it in the same way you would a novel, chapters at a time.

    This way the principles and truth and context will be understood .

    If we read the words of Jesus in the N T , we see for our selves what the actual words of Jesus were and in what context He spoke them and to whom.

    If we do this with out referring to commentaries or others notes, and we do this asking for the guidance and help from the Holy Spirit, we will soon know truth from error.

    The reason that so much deception exists today is that people don’t read the written word for themselves.

    Instead they will listen to someone preach for 1/2 hr on one verse and believe what is preached.

    God gave us the written word that we might know His principles and truths , and He sent us the Holy Spirit that He could teach us and show us what the written word means.

    This has to be a personal walk for all believers , as it is not possible for another human to teach another about deception in a way that will enable us to discern .

    We can’t use knowledge alone to discern the works of the deceiver .

    We need the understanding of what is written with the revelation and discernment of the Holy Spirit to stay on the narrow path that leads to life.

  119. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Andrew J Horton,
    I do believe we all need healing and encouraging words. He is the Gentle healer through His People. May we all see the importance of ‘blessing words’ sent out to others in Jesus’ Name. God bless you, Andrew :)

  120. Marilyn Crow, i am with you on that, our inheritance is in heaven.

    Here is a “type”

    Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as “the stars of the heaven” and as “the sand which is upon the sea shore” and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    “the stars of the heaven” Heavenly Kingdom (Church)

    “the sand which is upon the sea shore” Earthly Kingdom (Israel)

    Marilyn, i also agree, Rev 5:10 “b” and we shall reign “OVER” the earth.

    AMP, has it correct.

    Rev 5: 10 And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] over the earth! (AMP)

    Blessings.

  121. David Markham May 9th 2013

    I am deeply grieved by all the “Church” body of Christ bashing in the comments here. Just remember, you are bashing the very thing Christ bled and died for. I’m weary with calling folks “false teachers” just because we don’t agree with them. As though we all have the Gospel all figured out. We are so quick to throw out the baby with the bath water. That’s incredible pride if you ask me. I’m just trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

  122. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Kevin, re: The reason that so much deception exists today is that people don’t read the written word for themselves.

    – I too, believe this to be true. The Word is the only accurate plumb-line to the UnChangeableness of God. So much time is spent soaking up the ‘people version’ of God rather than God himself.
    Good words!

  123. Richard Savage May 9th 2013

    David Markham, how excellent are your words!

  124. watchful May 9th 2013

    AM……amen to your post. Part of the problem too is that the false church is blind and deaf to the biblical precedents and instructions as to how to ‘structure’ a congregation of believers. Unfortunately it makes for fertile ground in which the counterfeit with all that entails just continues to increase and flourish without correction and genuine spiritual growth taking place.

    That old woman is a good example too of humbly bowing to the sovereignty of God………sadly many are being given over to the strong delusion and it is God’s own judgment. Thank you for sharing the story, lessons to learn.

  125. watchful May 9th 2013

    Amen Marilyn, our hope is not in this world.

  126. GaryB May 9th 2013

    David Markham,
    I agree with what you have wrote here.

    Many of those people are God’s sheep.

    GaryB

  127. Barry Schmidt May 9th 2013

    Andrew Horton- thank you my dear brother for your prayers- I am deeply encouraged as I literally felt the power of them as I read them. I also feel humbled to receive such a blessing from a family member I know only in print.

    David Markham- I agree with your concern. A father in The Lord used to say to me, “Barry you must always speak of the Lords church as in the Lords presence as you would speak of your best friends wife in his presence.”

    I am all for warning the bride against specific heresies and false belief structures. There is a huge difference between that and what is spoken and how it is spoken against the church by some here.
    I tell you if anyone spoke of my bride ( of 30 years) in my presence the way many people speak of Jesus bride in His presence on this site -they would be on the floor – cold cocked- BY ME! Is Jesus less indignant over His bride?

    Who appointed you to brow beat, chastise and put down Jesus bride? Who gave you permission to do that? Last time I checked that right was given to The bridegroom.
    “I tell you men will have to give account on the day of judgement for EVERY IDLE WORD SPOKEN.”

    Please people let’s treat the LORDS bride with the respect we want our own bride to be spoken of:

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, (Ephesians 5:25-27, 29 NASB)

  128. GaryB May 9th 2013

    LGA,

    Bevere is stating this same thing in his book on the Fear of God. I think this is lacking in all our lives.

    Do we really fear God?

    GaryB

  129. watchful May 9th 2013

    ….our hope is in what we do not yet see, because hope that is seen is no hope at all….help us Lord to live by that….

  130. Kevin Haislip May 9th 2013

    What Jennifer LeClaire writes is something that the church has faced since the beginning (she notes it in her original article I read). Paul’s admonition to the Galation church makes Ms. LeClaires article almost unneeded, except that there are many today who need to be informed about the current trends and teachings apart from the gospel.

    She is not talking church bashing. She is talking about ‘another gospel’ that is not a true gospel. It is right that false gospels be pointed out.

    Truth is always up for grabs to whoever steps up to the microphone and many people are easily swayed by it. Ms. LeClaire points back to the real ‘truth’ of God’s Word and the ‘true’ gospel, once and for all delivered. For that, I applaud her though I myself thought so already.

    What is a huge concern to me is that we can stand for TRUTH and become lifeless and evil in our pronouncements (which I am not saying is happening here).

    Our lifeblood in Christ Jesus is to flow through us to others so that we are quick to show the love of God than to point the finger. The rock-star preachers keep themselves out of everyone’s reach, but the followers need someone to come alongside them and disciple them. The seed of the gospel has fallen on the stony ground in their lives, and it will wither and die if not planted deep. Just because someone has been deceived by a false gospel does not mean that the true one will not find life in them.

    Discipleship did not come overnight in our lives. It takes a lifetime for the Holy Spirit to work it out in us. We should have the same patience and love for others who have at least taken an initial step in the direction of Jesus, no matter how badly flawed it was in the beginning.

  131. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Watchful

    Another scripture that comes to mind is:

    Hebrews 11:1
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Our Faith is in the things unseen.

    GaryB

  132. Barry Schmidt May 9th 2013

    It is not wise to let rash and disrespectful words about the church proceed from our mouths or even our hearts any more than it is wise to abandon the flock when the wolf is upon her ( as is such an hour today):

    He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. (John 10:12, 13 NASB)

    Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ (Matthew 25:45 NASB)

  133. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Kevin

    I believe when the great outpouring takes place many of God’s sheep will hear His voice and will then come out from among them.

    GaryB

  134. Praise the Lord Barry and Amen to what you share about the Lord’s Bride… Discerning the Lord’s Body… Knowing whose are the Lord’s… Seeing the difference between the wolves and the sheep and the sheep and the goats…

    Not calling a sheep a goat or a sheep a wolf….

    Give us all that discernment Lord to see who are distressed sheep and not goats or wolves but equally to see who are goats and wolves even if – in the wolves case – they are dressed up as sheep (or distressed sheep)…

    Whatever anyone is Lord give us the attitude of Jesus with Judas (after Satan had entered into him) where Jesus genuinely said to Judas when he came to betray Him with a kiss, “Friend, what you do, do quickly”…

    Friend…

    No animosity, no hard feelings with either Judas or Satan – yes both will be judged in the “hereafter” – but no personal vendetta – or angst – which would have allowed the devil a foothold – no un-righteous anger…

    Your Church has been deceived and be-witched for so long – Thank You that You are opening some of our eyes to see the Truth – to see and understand the Truth and to live it…

    Praise You Jesus – and to live it before all those who are willing to see it and submit themselves to You…

    Praise You Lord…

    Give us discernment to see those who are seeking and those who are not…

    Let us go to those who You have prepared to hear and to understand the truth and leave the rest in Your care for Your timing in their lives…

    Thank You Jesus…

    Thank You that as we submit to You You will naturally guide our paths in the right way – we don’t have to strive to try and “work it all out”… :-)

  135. Barry Schmidt May 9th 2013

    Notice the main objective of the wolf is to ” snatch and scatter” the sheep?
    Notice also the response of the hireling is to ” leave the sheep and flee”?

    This is exactly what many who claim true loyalty to Jesus are doing in this hour- leaving the sheep and fleeing!
    You can run away and leave the church if you want but by Gods grace -I’m going nowhere- supposing I have to die with the sheep- I am STAYING WITH THE SHEEP!

  136. watchful May 9th 2013

    Hebrews 11:1 – amen Gary B, beautiful, thanks.

  137. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    GaryB, re: Bevere is stating this same thing in his book on the Fear of God. I think this is lacking in all our lives.

    Do we really fear God?

    – After moving, I am not finding Bevere’s book ‘Fear of the Lord’ and don’t recall exactly what scriptures he referenced. My personal thoughts here, ie. Do we really fear God?

    It is ”’ impossible ”’ to ‘fear God’ apart from the Word of God, for the wisdom of men is foolishness without the Word.
    There are several words in scripture describing ‘fearing God’

    – Terror ( Hebrew: to prostrate by confusion and fear), -Ps. 88:16; 2 Cor. 5:11,
    – Fright (Greek: to shrink or shiver with fear) -Luke 8:37; Luke 24:36-37,
    – Dismay (translated: drained of confidence and courage) Daniel 10:8-11,
    – Astonishment (translated: thunderstruck, struck dumb) Acts 9:5-6; Ps. 46:10; Eccl. 5:2,
    – Trembling (translated: overpowering fear) ,
    – Dread, (an intense uneasiness or alarm) Isaiah 6:5; Job 13:18; Job 13:21
    ..perhaps more terms are used as well. I don’t believe ‘fear’ to be simply, reverential trust. Fearing God is so important, that satan tries to confuse us as to it’s true significance and application in our lives.
    Our fear of God is limited to our knowledge of all God is. This can ONLY be found in rightly studying and dividing his Words.

    Thus the false gospel of our day,

    the watered-down Word
    + human perception of God’s True Holiness
    + man’s desire to ignore sin
    ———————————————————–
    = little if any, true Fear of God.

  138. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Clarification – re: It is ”’ impossible ”’ to ‘fear God’ apart from the Word of God, for the wisdom of men is foolishness without the Word.

    God can put His Fear into the heart of those who who have little ‘Word exposure’. To us who have 10 Bibles per home, we need to know what is between the pages, for we are accountable for very jot and tittle. God Bless! :)

  139. John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Blessings.

  140. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    We are called to be His Light, to a world where wrong seems right –
    What could be too great a cost, for sharing life with one who’s lost?

    For, People Need The Lord

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AibBR6j2g54

  141. This describes our day perfectly:

    And the things which shall be written out of the book
    shall be of great worth unto the children of men,
    And especially unto our seed which are
    a remnant of the house of Israel.
    For it shall come to pass in that day, that the churches
    which are built up, and not unto the Lord………..
    …and there shall be many which shall say:
    “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die
    and it shall be well with us.”
    and there shall be many which shall teach after
    this manner false and vain and foolish doctrines,…….
    They have become corrupted,
    because of pride,
    And because of false teachers and false doctrines,
    their churches have become corrupted
    and their churches are lifted up,
    Because of pride, they are puffed up;
    They rob the poor, because of their fine sanctuaries,
    They rob the poor, because of their fine clothing;
    And they persecute the meek and the poor in heart,
    because in their pride they are puffed up-
    They wear stiff necks and high heads.

    And all they that preach false doctrines,
    And all they that commit whoredoms
    and pervert the right way of the Lord;

    Wo unto them that turn aside the just
    for a thing of naught,
    And revile against that which is good
    and say that it is of no worth!”

    Yea, and because of pride and wickedness and abomina-
    tions and whoredoms they have all gone astray, save
    it be a few which are the humble followers of Christ;
    Nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they
    do err, because they are taught by the precepts of men.

    … from the words of a book people love to hate……

    unto him that saith, “We have received
    and we need no more”! …….all they that tremble
    and are angry because of the truth of God!
    For behold, he that is built upon the Rock,
    receiveth it with gladness;
    And he that is built upon a sandy foundation,
    trembleth lest he shall fall.

  142. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    pko4p,

    Am I sorely mistaken, or is this from the book of mormon? Please forgive me if I am remiss here. Or is it God’s Word mixed with book of Nephi Mormon ?

  143. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    I did a Google search on several passages from your post: Here’s one –

    “And they persecute the meek and the poor in heart”,

    It goes here in search:

    “They Persecute the Meek and the Poor in Heart” |
    The Book of …
    bookofmormononline.net/commentary/6394‎
    Commentary on 2 Nephi 28:13 from: Second Witness: Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon – Brant Gardner.

    Sorry but, as usual, I’m a bit confused. lol 😀

  144. The warnings and verses quoted in the article are the truth and a very real problem.

    If reading those verses and warnings triggers any reaction of fear, doubt,uncertainty, defensiveness or anger within , then know that these feelings don’t come from the real Jesus , and know that this points to having received the wrong spirit.

    What to do next ?

    Be willing to surrender to the real Jesus all you think you know and have received in His name.

    Ask Him to set you free from all deception that is not of His truth.

    Ask Him to lead you to and show you the truth.

    Pick up the Bible asking for the guidance and leading of the Holy Spirit and start reading for yourselves what the real gospel is , and what the real Jesus says.

    Seek Him and you will find Him

    Ask Him and you will receive

    Praise you Lord Jesus Christ

    for you are the way and the truth and the life !
    TO ALL, KEVIN SPOKE SIMPLE TRUTH.
    if one cant discern the evils in these gosples
    tis because they are UNLEARNED in DOCTRINE.
    SEE WHAT GOD APPROVES SEE WHAT HE HATES.
    as for WATCHFUL
    AMEN……………….the HOPE YET UNSEEN
    all else AINT HOPE but fades away………………..

  145. I would like to add to andrews wonderful testimony on Abraham.
    THOUGH abraham was rich………………
    HOW and WHERE DID HE LIVE…………….in a simple tent.
    WAS HE PRAYING FOR MONEY………….NOPE
    not only was his heart not set upon it
    HE GAVE UP HIS ALL AND ALL……………HIS OWN SON.
    ABRAHAMS FAITH WAS NOT IN RICHES OF EARTH
    nor he desire and want of these riches.
    IT WAS ABOVE.
    any man who secretly desires riches………………IS IN GRAVE DANGER.
    Any man who thinks by obtaining more riches he will be better OFF
    is in GRAVE DANGER. learn to be CONTENT
    set not your heart or any affections uppon riches or earthly things.
    SIMPLY BE CONTENT with what you have.
    GOD has said HE WILL NEVER LEAVE US NOR FORSAKE US.
    And did Abraham really SEE JESUS DAY
    YOU BET HE DID and HE REJOICED.
    abraham walked by faith. and TRUSTED GOD. his every WORD.
    GOD had told abraham something……..
    HE had said…………………IN ISSAC SHALL THY SEED………….
    THUS abraham knew within GOD cannot lie.
    ACCOUNTING GOD WOULD EVEN RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD ………………TO FULLFILLL GODS PROMISE.
    HAVE a READ in HEBREWS . YES accouting GOD would even RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD. ABRAHAM
    was taken up on the moutain to SEE if HE BELIEVED GOD.
    TO see if HE COULD TRUST GOD, and DO all that was commanded. AND HE was taken UP
    to SEE the REVELATION OF CHRISTS DAY.
    IN THE MOUNT OF THE LORD…………..IT SHALL BE SEEN
    PROVIDED………………HE SAW CHRISTS DAY.
    HE SAW IT and REJOICED and LEAPEED FOR JOY.
    SAVOIR CHRIST……………no other way. amen.

  146. KEY WORDS……………..where shall it be seen or PROVIDED
    IN THE MOUNT OF THE LORD.
    GOD DID PROVIDE the ONLY SACRFICE which could ever
    cleanse any of all SIN.
    And as HIS FIRST COMING, he came to take away the sin of the world, that all who believe in HIM will HAVE LIFE ETERNAL.
    and for those who LOOK FOR HIM NOW
    shall he return the SECOND TIME without sin………………..
    KING OF KINGS to reward the saints with the REWARD.
    BE LOOKINGNOW…………………..BE LOOKING
    lest the cares and pleasures of this world, its riches, its pride of life and selfish ambitons of being someone ……….OVERTAKE YOU. There is still a remmant of believers worldwide
    and they cast ALL AFFECTIONS ABOVE ON HIM
    not minding earthly things, they live as strangers,
    they live UNTO GOD, and walk by FAITH as did abraham,
    they build not their empire, nor status among men,
    they walk humbly, exalting GOD and not men or themselvs.
    THEY live as DID THE MASTER while he was upon earth.
    THE MASTER………………yet the servant of all.
    COME YE OUT OF BABYLON
    and ONCE OUT…………………KEEP BABYLONE OUT OF YOU.
    COME YE OUT FROM AMONG THESE
    TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING
    AND GOD SHALL RECIEVE YOU.
    a ministry built upon ME, will FAIL
    a ministry BUILT UPON THE ROCK SHALL STAND.
    COME OUT NOW……………………..and BE YE HOLY.
    TIME is getting short and no man knows his own last hour.
    DO NOT BE FOUND as you would NOT WANT TO BE FOUND
    BE FOUND IN CHRIST, walking AS DID HE.
    READ THE DOCTRINES, READ THEM and LEARN
    avoid men who speak out against bible reading
    PAUL charged TIMOTHY BEFORE GOD and the angels
    TO READ IT …………
    for the time would come when many NO LONGER would.
    BUT WOULD MIX LIES WITH TRUTH and be turned unto favles.
    AMEN>

  147. TO THE LORD BE THE GLORY
    I have HOPE not from anything in this world
    I HAVE HOPE because I HAVE CHRIST
    all else matters NOT.
    MY PROSPERITY IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.
    MY PROSPERITY IS CHRIST……………
    THE SAVOIR OF MY SOUL, the GUIDER of my heart
    and keeper of my steps………………
    TO THE LORD BE THE GLORY.
    and come what may, TO GOD BE THE GLORY.
    GOD is my HELPER and I FEAR NOT MAN.
    THROUGH all times harsh or simple
    THE KING is the PRIZE OF THE EYES
    the EYE BE SINGLE
    HEAVENLY…………….not double.
    THE LIGHT be LIGHT .
    SING unto the LORD. FOR HIS GRACE IS SUFFICENT
    HIS salvation OUR JOY
    the PROMISE OF HIS RETURN my HOPE………….
    and JOY abounds when the heart is above.
    FOR even in the loss of all things, even my life
    is the loss of nothing…………FOR CHRIST is my TREASURE.
    aLL HOPES ABOVE LAMBS
    ALL HOPES ABOVE, not here on earth
    not its things
    ABOVE ON THE KING……………………
    SING and SING JOYFULLY
    REJOICE IN HIM……………GLORY IN HIM,
    and PRAISE THE LORD.

  148. AND HE IS FAITHFUL TO PURGE OUT ALL DROSS IN ME……..
    so come what may……………TO GOD BE THE GLORY.
    SING ……………
    in our chastenings even, HE IS THERE and tis done
    FOR OUR GOOD.
    I pray ONLY when it comes, THAT on my part HE IS GLORIFIED.
    that PATIENCE have her perfect work…………THAT FAITH be perfected. GOD KNOWS what is BEST FOR ME
    THUS there is no worry of the morrow.
    GOD WILL BE THERE , whether i am or not in this world…………
    IF i am gone, then PRESENT with the LORD………….
    IF i am still here then TO LIVE IS CHRIST and JOY ABOUNDS.
    NO FEAR…………………..LOVE casts OUT ALL FEAR.
    SING lambs……………………..JESUS is THE TREASURE
    alll to the GLORY OF THE FATHER.
    WE have hope in all times……………….WE DO
    GET THIS IN DEEP.
    JOY IN HIS SALVATION, the fact you have been pulled out of darkness, REJOICE in the LORD and be EVER THANKFUL
    for HIS GRACE iN CHRIST………………..
    TO THE LORD BE THE GLORY…………………
    AND TO THE LORD BE ALL PRAISE AND THANKSGIVNG>
    THIS world has NUAGHT FOR ME
    JESUS is my treasure and MY HOPE.
    the WHORE can keep her cups of delicacies
    JESUS is MY TReASURE
    and i am BOUGHT by HIM. and the TRUTH i SELL NOT
    regardless of what the COST
    I SEE ONLY THE REWARD…………………..
    on that DAY………………….the reward.
    and HOPE ABOUNDS in all times.
    BLESSED BE HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.
    the ROCK of our salvtion………………….from whom all blessings flow. PRAISE THE LORD……………we have HOPE
    HOPE IN HIM. amen

  149. Beautiful song, HHHLGA, I felt the presence of the Lord in that… :-)

  150. AND HE IS FAITHFUL TO PURGE OUT ALL DROSS IN ME……..

    Amen brother Randall, Amen… :-)

  151. Roger (NZ) May 9th 2013

    With regard to ‘false gospels’ – satan can only decieve those who desire what he offers.

    Anything and everything to do with the promotion of ‘self’ is ripe for his involvement.

    Which is why our focus must be on Christ Jesus our Lord, submitting and surrendering all to Him..

    For His glory, for His promotion above all other things – in our individual lives, and in His creation.

  152. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Anthony Donaghey,

    I seldom read the longer posts. I read and thoroughly enjoyed your recent post….and the Waldensian’s (Sp. ? Waldersee’s ) and Huguenots had the Word only, because they valued it enough to memorize, teach, and live it unto death.

    RE: Please remember brothers and sisters, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, against spiritual wickedness in high places…
    Oh, and our greatest weapon is prayer!

    —————————————————————–
    — Thanks for this post…although, you totally lost me somewhere in the Beatles! God Bless

  153. Lightning Storm May 9th 2013

    Amen, Roger.
    That truth should SPUR people to welcome the Baptism of Fire and to come to ABSOLUTE SURRENDER to the ONLY ONE Who KEEPS us and PURIFIES US.

  154. Lightning Storm May 9th 2013

    AMEN AMEN AMEN

    Pr Michael and Gary B…….Your comments about “which church” are we talking about !

    It is getting REALLY OLD…….There IS a COUNTERFEIT of everything in God’s Kingdom…….It is called Satan’s Kingdom of Darkness, the world in which we live.

    Could that be why “christians” look like the world, act like the world, and CLING TO THIS WORLD………because they don’t BELIEVE that one BASIC TRUTH?

  155. Averyl May 9th 2013

    Because a family member attends a local Destiny church, I’ve just checked out what their leader is preaching.
    This is the 1st time I’ve attempted to place a youtube clip on here, so I hope it works!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch/v=QJnmCC2AWdk

  156. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 9th 2013
  157. Kevin May 9th 2013

    Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
    Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
    Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    True discernment comes by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and my understanding of the above verses is that through being baptized in the Holy Spirit, we will know the works of the enemy , and be able to overcome the works of the enemy .

    The Holy Spirit is also the only way we will come to truly understand the written word of God.

    The we have the discernment of the Holy Spirit and the way of testing spirits.

  158. Kevin May 9th 2013

    Above meant to say:

    Then we have the discernment of the Holy Spirit and the understanding of the written word to test other spirits.

  159. Kevin May 9th 2013

    For the other spirits that come to deceive with the false gospel , always come as servants of righteousness, quoting scripture .

    2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

  160. Richard Savage May 9th 2013

    I’m probably going to upset some of the ‘heavy hitting Bible scholars’ on here. So be it.

    False prophets and false teachers are nothing new. They have been since the beginning, before the incarnation. In His earthly ministry with us mortals, Jesus said, let the wheat grow with the tares… In other words, let well alone. I’m in control!

    It seems to me, as an out of church Jewish Christian, there is a choice before us:

    Overturn the money changer’s tables (e.g. false teachers and false prophets) or do as we are told, let the wheat grow with the tares!

    The latter does’t mean to say a good word, if it is directly from the Holy Spirit, isn’t required, but the Holy Spirit is surely the qualification here. Speak as we are given, and precisely when.

    We’re all very keen to bring people into the Body of Christ, to save them from eternal destruction. Yes? Of course yes!

    Now, allow me to ask you, into what earthly fellowship would you bring them? Which around you is strong enough to resist Hinn and his pupil Bevere, et al? If two or three who are called into My Name by my Spirit, can’t agree on such an important matter as to what is false and what is not, into which fellowship would you bring babes in Christ? Whose likeness will they be in? Ours, or that of Christ Jesus.

    Question. Why so many opinions and prideful statements here? If Jesus Christ is Lord, and we walk in the Holy Spirit, as well claim … shouldn’t we expect some harmony? Some common understanding.

    Might be a good time, albeit somewhat late in the day, to sort ourselves out.

  161. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Roger (NZ)

    Good Point. When men desire to be someone important in the eyes of others they fall into the devils trap.

    Pride goes before a fall.

    GaryB

  162. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Kevin Wrote:
    For the other spirits that come to deceive with the false gospel , always come as servants of righteousness, quoting scripture . Quote…..

    Kevin
    I think there is always a mixture of new age thinking, or heretical doctrines. Eventually what’s in a mans heart will come out of his mouth. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks…..

    Also, When people come with visions, dreams, that do not line up with the Word of God.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  163. The Holy Spirit is also the only way we will come to truly understand the written word of God.

    Then we have the discernment of the Holy Spirit and the understanding of the written word to test other spirits.

    Amen Kevin, Love you brother… :-)

  164. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    Richard Savage re: resist Hinn and his pupil Bevere

    John Bevere actually left Hinn’s leading/influence MANY years on account of no longer condoning what Hinn was teaching. Others here may want that clarified. :) God Bless, R. Savage

  165. Richard Savage May 9th 2013

    I’m in email correspondence with a member of this forum, far distant to myself in the UK. We’re currently discussing the ‘collective’ understandings of our Saviour and what it means to be out of church.

    Having been out of church for twenty years, it seems to me there’s more cohesion here than in church movements.

    Said I’d offend the big hitters!

  166. HHHLGA May 9th 2013

    correction …John Bevere actually left Hinn’s leading/influence MANY years ago…

  167. Richard Savage May 9th 2013

    HHHLGA, my thanks for that point, I didn’t know that. I will, I promise, investigate Bevere further and, if possible, interject the result on this forum, whatever the subject, when you’re posting.

    Again, thanks.

    Richard

  168. GaryB May 9th 2013

    Lighting Storm,
    Could that be why “christians” look like the world, act like the world, and CLING TO THIS WORLD………because they don’t BELIEVE that one BASIC TRUTH?
    Quote……

    I think when people are afraid of not being accepted by the worldly crowd, they act like the world so they will be accepted by the world.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  169. GaryB May 9th 2013

    LGA

    Thanks for sharing that, I did not know of this.

    This is a good lesson, how many others has the Lord led out of all this mess out there and we do not know about it.

    I was thinking along these lines the other day, what if a brother repented and God delivered him and then some are still attacking him with no knowledge that he was following the Lord and had repented of certain practices.

    Lord Bless
    GaryB

  170. We had our first home group meeting yesterday evening as a part of our local fellowship… Very cool… Lots of encouraging testimonies and we prayed for each other and one other person who I asked them to pray for… :-)

  171. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 9th 2013

    Richard Savage,

    I mentioned it to my good man. He said that Bevere’s teachings expose the false prophet very well. As these leaders spiral into more false teachings, sometimes those beneath leave. Much like Strom did as well. They leave, exposing the false left behind them. Bevere was very respectful to the ‘authority structure’ principle, so you don’t hear too much speaking out against authority, just against the false teachings. Bevere’s teachings were very helpful when we left the Bentley teaching which came in. I do appreciate your concerns on what he teaches, though. God Bless, Brother :)

  172. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 9th 2013

    Gary B,

    re: I was thinking along these lines the other day, what if a brother repented and God delivered him and then some are still attacking him with no knowledge that he was following the Lord and had repented of certain practices.

    I do think that happens alot, Gary People have very good reason to be leary! Had we known Andrew Strom was initially in the Lakeland Prophetic scene, we would never have listened to his clips which were so instrumental in freeing us from the lakeland Prophetic scene. Bevere’s teachings were equally helpful, though we were unable to encourage our church to explore the teachings on the false prophetic movement. They were very closed to Strom’s teachings as well, while open to Bentley’s. People generally follow where they wish to go. God Bless, Brother GaryB :)

  173. Regarding the article , as has been said already , there is nothing new or surprising in this . The following verses were warning about the false way and the false messengers :

    Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

    Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

    Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
    Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

    Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Mat 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
    Mat 7:25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

    Mat 7:26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
    Mat 7:27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

  174. Kevin,
    May I ask, Are you in New Zealand as well?

    GaryB

  175. We are told that by their fruit you will know them.

    Over the years that I have followed Jesus , I have been fortunate enough to come across a couple of His true servants , who in a very understated and humble way , were working in the miraculous , where twisted limbs were straightened, wheelchair bound people walked again , and cancer was healed.

    These people quietly went about their work completely unnoticed by mainstream christianity.

    In comparison I have seen many who come speaking of things to impress and flatter , seeking others to submit to their authority and leading , claiming to be in the throne room of God on a daily basis, talking of their great spiritual encounters, and all I ever saw from them was words, no power or real authority , no real evidence of Lord Jesus Christ as I witnessed in His true humble servants.

    So as others have said the true and the false will exist right up until the time of our Lords return.

    What I think many underestimate is the size and scale of the false, however as it is written , so it shall be .

  176. GaryB, yes I’m a kiwi

  177. Kevin,

    My obvious question now is, What is a Kiwi?

    GaryB

  178. By their fruit you shall know them ;

    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
    Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
    Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

  179. GaryB , sorry , a kiwi is NZ

  180. David Marsh May 10th 2013

    Mmmmmmm.
    What a predicament we have here. Some are offended and some are cheering on Andrew’s article above.

    Perhaps it depends on what’s in our heart as we read through Jennifer LeClaire’s common observation.

    Years ago, a young man came into my work with his work request. He was beaming and excited, he’d not been saved long. We struck up a conversation about the wonderful new life and all was going well until he began sheepishly boasting, with a grin on his face, about his fornicating. I think he expected me to wink and grin back. But I could not.
    I was both horrified at his predicament and relieved that God had pre prepared me for that meeting. It was a God appointment. Only the previous day the Lord had me dwell on that Scripture. I even had the page earmarked in my Bible. I immediately went and got my bible and with fear and trepidation I asked him to reconsider his ways. I pleaded that he reconsider and i opened that page and read him out the exact Scripture given above – emphasizing ” …you who
    practice lawlessness!´

    The look on his face said it all. He knew he was in danger and I knew that God used me to reach out to that young man.

    With the limited understanding that we have of our Bibles, are we going to reach out to these people or simply abuse them from the side lines.

    The truth is that if we really love these people, we will try to correct and warn them with all humility. For our heart is for them and not against them. We are for God’s truth and for every man and woman on Earth.

    The truth should be simply spoken in love.
    That is the truth of it. That is how our Lord speaks to each of us. He doesn’t abuse. He speaks correction with a heart full of love. And so should we.

    God bless
    David.

  181. Amen David

  182. Kevin,

    I see what your saying. I know of a situation where someone local uses flattery all the time to win people over, but is all along trying to deceive them while twisting the Bible to fit their circumstances.

    Romans 16:18
    For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

    Jude 1:16
    These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.

    When someone constantly flatters people it throws you off guard.

    GaryB

  183. Yes Gary , for the true gospel puts the flesh on the cross and brings forth new life in Christ, where as the false exalts and appeals to the flesh , or the vanity of our imagination , and empowers us with the approval of the false christ

  184. Gary,
    the one a see the most that trips people up are false words of prophecy , for when some one says thus saith the Lord, often people are unwilling to test or seek confirmation, yet we are told in the word to test all prophecy.

    Every time I have been into a gathering that was not true to Christ, the first thing that happens is that someone will bring a great “word ” which if left untested , or unconfirmed would have always taken me away from where our Lord Jesus Christ was leading me , and taken me under the control of those bringing forth the word.

  185. Kevin,

    I know what you mean. Here be good test:

    Deuteronomy 18:22
    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

    I have been to meetings that people come forth with prophesy that is generally generic. It was a lot of nice words to an individual that always sounded so positive.

    They was going to be blessed, they were going to be used of the Lord, God had something good for them, etc. etc..

    Actually it could of applied to any individual in the crowd.

    If its generic in content no one has to worry about it coming to pass I guess.

    GaryB

  186. Kevin,

    On the other hand I have see the real gift in manifestation. I was at a meeting years ago where a little Chinese woman went from table to table sharing things in the Spirit as she gave her testimony.

    At our table a person had been going through some trials in a certain area that only we knew about. When she came to our table she spoke by the Spirit of the Lord and revealed the whole thing and ministered to the individual. The person was set free.

    When the real gift comes forth there is nothing hidden and God gets right to the point of the matter.

    GaryB

  187. Yes Gary, in the same way Jesus spoke to the woman at the well.

  188. Joh 4:16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
    Joh 4:17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband';
    Joh 4:18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.”
    Joh 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.

  189. Thank you responders for the prayers for the elderly lady. She lives in a very low socio economic area, so is no chicken, when it comes to making a stand. But she is also human, frail and needs support too. The sad thing with this -the Bible says we must support the widows (she is a widow) and the very leader who should promote this, is doing the opposite.
    James 1:27 – Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock.
    I think we do see alot of this even today, but then the CEO model of pastor is not really scriptural and the load needs to be shared by the fivefold ministry throughout the church.
    We labour on for HIM meanwhile, He who called us out of darkness unto light

    I think the reality of what this posting is about, is that things are not prophesised to change in the Bible. It is going to get worse, so in this context, true believers need to find good fellowship, in whatever form it occurs, continue to serve Jesus where they are or are called out to be, stay close to the Holy Spirit and continue to be alert and discern the times.
    I regularly go and help people who are poor or on pensions/benefits and on a visit to a Govt housing area, I met an old Asian lady on the stairs. She said to me “This earth is getting tired from all the evil and struggles in it. The earth is groaning with the strain of it all”. I never viewed it like this but interesting! She was not a Christian either.

  190. I will continue to pray for the elderly lady to be successful in her intercession AM… :-)

    She will be, I’m getting that witness again now… She will be… :-)

    Praise You Jesus… :-)

    Once the golden bowl is full of the incense of the prayers of the saints in this respect it will be tipped out over her situation… :-)

    Scripture tells us that when we believe and do not doubt we have what we have asked for from God – in advance we know – faith is our substance – and the Joy assures us that this is true…

    Praise You Jesus…

    The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy… :-)

  191. Roger (NZ) May 10th 2013

    With regard to false gospel, those who posted on JBTV may remember this given by Stanley Frodsham, whilst some may not see this as prophecy, the words below speak of what is happening today..

    *******
    “…I warn you to search the Scriptures diligently these last days. For the things that are written shall indeed be made manifest. There shall come deceivers among My people in increasing numbers, who shall speak forth the truth and shall gain the favor of the people. For the people shall examine the Scriptures and say, “What these men say is true.” Then when they have gained the hearts of the people, then and THEN ONLY shall they bring
    out these wrong doctrines. Therefore, I say that you should not give your hearts to men, nor hold people’s persons in admiration. For by these very persons shall Satan enter into My people. WATCH FOR SEDUCERS.
    Do you think a seducer will brandish a new heresy and flaunt it before the people? He will speak the words of righteousness and truth, and will appear as a minister of light, declaring the Word. The people’s hearts shall be won. Then, when the hearts are won, they will bring out their doctrines, and the people shall be deceived. The people shall say, “Did he not speak thus and thus? And did we not examine it from the Word? Therefore he is a
    minister of righteousness. This that he has now spoken we do not see in the Word, but it must be right, for the other things he spoke were true.”

    Be not deceived. For the deceiver will first work to gain the hearts of many, and then shall bring forth his insidious doctrines. You cannot discern those who are of Me and those who are not of Me when they start to preach. But seek Me constantly, and then when these doctrines are brought out you shall have a witness in
    your heart that these are not of Me. Fear not, for I have warned you. Many will be deceived. But if you walk in holiness and uprightness before the Lord, your eyes shall be open and the Lord will protect you. If you will constantly look unto the Lord you will know when the doctrine changes, and will not be brought into it. If your heart is right I will keep you; and if you will look constantly to Me I will uphold you….”

    ****
    Above a partial quote from here: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/article_pdf.php?aid=20744

  192. Interesting Roger that the prophecy was from 1967 I think .

    Remember first reading it back on JBTV and witnessing with it .

  193. I see roger that it was 1965 .

    What a great word for today regarding the seducing spirits that come to flatter and gain our confidence even using the word of God before they bring in their deception

  194. Lightning Storm May 10th 2013

    Amen Keven and Gary B….about FLATTERY.

    Flattery is WITCHCRAFT…….

    WITCHCRAFT takes on many forms according to the scriptures.

    The main purpose of WITCHCRAFT is CONTROL and POWER.

    Flattery is MANIPULATION…….a most common form of WITCHCRAFT.

  195. Lightning Storm May 10th 2013

    Mat 6:1 KJV
    Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    Mat 6:2 KJV
    Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Mat 6:3 KJV
    But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

    Mat 6:4 KJV
    That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    Mat 6:5 KJV
    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Mat 6:6 KJV
    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

  196. TEST them spirits,,,,,,,,,,,
    ROGER when i was reading what you last sent
    i saw the TRUTH in it.
    THEY CREEP IN gain control and THEN after a bit
    will creep in the doctrine.
    Believing it is okay to even lie, or hold back
    till the church is ready for their new revelation.
    THEY will also slowely turn the people away from those
    they percieve as DANGEROUS to their agenda.
    and even give them a few flatteries, while turning the group of those they see who will follow them against the FEW they know NEVER WILL.
    when the time is ripe………..they BRING the FALSE DOCTRINE in a fast and furious bang and delete any who they know
    will remain in bible doctrine the ways of OUR LORD
    and who will never compromise truth.
    DID THIS NOT HAPPEN at our LAST SIGHT.

  197. WORDS and phrases will begin to change.
    wordly expressions will begin to slowly enter from them.
    BEWARE they be sensual men NOT led of the spirit.
    ROGER………………….KEVIN……………….and others…….
    KEEP your HEARTS above…………
    LOOK not for earthly rewards, or prophecies which
    fuel the flesh of men and speeches which
    lead men into selfish ambitous gain of ANY TYPE.
    DID JESUS NOT WARN his OWN DESICPLES
    about SEEKING and BOASTING IN THE POWER
    RATHER than simply REJOICING that their names were above.
    THIS IS A BIG ONE. THEY had come back from casting out demons, they were rejoicing in the fact THEY COULD
    and JESUS didnt say GOOD JOB……..
    NO HE WARNED THEM ASAP………………I beheld satan as lightning fall………PRIDE
    REJOICE not in that you have POWER over demons
    REJOICE RATHER that your names are above.
    THIS IS THE TEST. BEWARE PRIDE at all costs.
    PRIDE has destroyed many in the church
    and at its end will be said………..
    LORD , LORD, did we not prophesy in thy name
    cast out demons, do many wonderful works
    AND HE SAYS……………..DEPART i NEVER KNEW YOU.
    be on gaurd. any site is open game for any man
    even if he runs it, like PETE did……………to expose falsehoods
    and many trust the man running it………..
    ONLY TRUST TRUTH. ONLY TRUST GOD and TEST ALL THINGS. amen.

  198. IF we love, as donald said
    and that was very well put donald.
    my spirit was edified and i was reminded
    by what you said. THIS IS WHAT it is all about.
    THANKS DONALD for the reminder of that.
    IT DID ME GOOD to hear THIS. amen.

  199. Hi Randal, I take it that there are some of the same posters that you are referring to from this previous site which Kevin, Roger & yourself were involved with who are posting on this site? Is that correct? Love in the Lord, Andrew

  200. Yes randall , we are on the same page .

    the problem comes with the man made ministries that seek a platform from which they seek the glory and acceptance of man.

    man pleasing words packaged with the insincere worldly love .

    The sensual love that gives for what it can receive

  201. Roger (NZ) May 10th 2013

    GaryB – this link gives a very brief descriptive relationship between the kiwi, an indigenous NZ bird, and the use of the nuickname for NZ’ers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_(people)

  202. Andrew J ,

    Speaking for myself here , have not been on any other sites with randall,

    Just happen to witness with what he says regarding the sensual seductive spirit that comes with the false Christ , uplifting the flesh and empowering it with a sense of Godly authority.

    Such is the work of the seducing spirits.

  203. Roger (NZ) May 10th 2013

    Andrew JH – I met Randall on another blog about 2 years ago (approx) A number of us either pulled away or were blocked (for sharing scriptural truth) when the teachings from the host, and others, were received from anti christ spirits, thereby promoting a false gospel, and introducing another jesus.

  204. Marilyn Crow May 10th 2013

    Ken1

    Thankyou for your comments re AMP `over,` the earth. I hadn`t seen that before but just knew the Greek word, `epi,` meant `over.` So I`ve learned something thank you.

    I also appreciate what you are saying in reference to the `stars & sand.` Here are some interesting thoughts I was taught.

    `The Jew`s Ancestral Origin.

    His ancestral heritage is revealed when Abraham, his forefather, in Gen. 22: 17, is told by the Lord that his seed should be as the sand of the seashore & as the stars of heaven. This indicates that the seed of Abraham, the Jew, would hold a prominent place in the earth purposes.

    The `sand` symbol would predominate amongst the nations both in the time purpose of God & the Eternal purpose when a new earth will still find the blood-stock of Abraham as the dominant nation & power.

    The `stars` symbol promises the Jew a prominent but not predominant place in the heavens.`

    (P.G.J.Lovell – Former Pastor & Bible teacher)

    And Ken we seem to have much of our Bible understanding the same. Where did you learn these truths?

    Marilyn.

  205. Lightning Storm May 10th 2013

    Quote from Kevin:

    “man pleasing words packaged with the insincere worldly love .”

    “The sensual love that gives for what it can receive”
    (unquote)

    Those are some very interesting statements, Kevin.
    A subject that I need more revelation from Father about.
    I am beginning to see where you are going with this “sensual love” you have been discussing.

    Thank you.

  206. Lighting Storm Wrote;
    Quote from Kevin:

    “man pleasing words packaged with the insincere worldly love .”

    “The sensual love that gives for what it can receive”
    (unquote)

    I think I understand now as well.

    When people close their ears to something that is wrong and refuse to even take a look at what they are doing to see if its wrong, they at that point become unteachable.

    GaryB

  207. Roger(NZ),

    Thanks for the link. This information is all new for me. I told my wife what Kevin said that people from New Zealand called themselves Kiwi.

    She said, Is this named from the fruit called, Kiwi. I assumed it was. :)

    I was not even aware of this bird. There is something true to the old saying, “You learn something new everyday”. :)

    GaryB

  208. AM Wrote:
    She lives in a very low socio economic area, so is no chicken, when it comes to making a stand. But she is also human, frail and needs support too. The sad thing with this -the Bible says we must support the widows (she is a widow) and the very leader who should promote this, is doing the opposite.Quote……..

    AM
    Here is how I view people in this condition:

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    AM
    You probably already know this, but that old lady is were Jesus is. As you minister to her, your ministering to the Lord.

    GaryB

  209. LS Wrote:
    Flattery is WITCHCRAFT…….

    WITCHCRAFT takes on many forms according to the scriptures.
    Quote

    LS
    I think when people open the doors to the occult whether done in innocence or because they desire to, that they can be swayed by witchcraft.

    They then close their ears to “truth” and believe the lie, at this point in time they become unteachable.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

    10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    If something is true we should be willing to examine it in the light of scripture and not close our eyes and ears to truth.

    Mark 4:12
    so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’”

    GaryB

  210. Jda016 May 10th 2013

    In my classes about English literature, I was always taught to quote your sources. This is very important in making a case for your argument or thesis. You have to have EVIDENCE if you want anyone to believe what you are saying.

    I think we miss this a lot in Christendom when exposing false teachers. We say such and such is false and yet we don’t even quote the heresy they speak let alone their names.

    This doesn’t really help the Church.

    I recently studied Mormonism because I was confused over the belief system. I went straight to the words of Jospeh Smith and the other main leaders of their groups and by their own words I could see that they were false. Why? Because I compared them to God’s Living Word (Not to mention the inner witness of the Holy Spirit).

    If we just name names, then we can be faulted for “witch-hunting.” However, if we quote these people directly, there can be no denying the false and accursed teachings that they spew.

  211. Jda016

    An excellent book refuting mormon doctrine is called, “the Mormon papers”. It examines the lies promoted by Mormonism.

    The Egyptian tablet was translated years later after Smith died. This is where he got part of his revelation.

    They found he had totally fabricated what the tablet was saying with his false teachings.

    Very interesting book. Mormonism is deceiving millions of people to this date.

    GaryB

  212. I am to be jointly leading worship with another brother (Jonny) at our local congregation this Sunday morning if anyone would like to pray that the Lord’s Presence would be on us and that we would be able to allow His Spirit to move and worship Him in Freedom and Gratitude together… :-)

  213. AJH

    I am very surprised at the personal prophecy at your site to the lady. In your comments you keep going on and on how you love her.

    It just seems inappropriate that a married man would speak this way with a sister in Christ.

    Its one thing to say it once but I to embellish it seems inappropriate.

  214. May God bless you Gary… :-)

  215. You may want to delete some of those posts before others read them. :)

  216. I have nothing to be ashamed of Gary – my heart is pure before the Lord… :-)

  217. AJH

    Maybe so and I apologize if I misread some quotes.

    But all the information you deleted and would not share seemed strange to me.

    When it comes to something that is true we should be willing to acknowledge it for what its worth. I want say no more about it but it seems odd for a man of your caliber.

    I forgive you for all the jezebel, spirit of satan, quotes that were intended to harm others.

    GaryB

  218. The Lord told me not to respond to your comments regarding C. S. Lewis on the previous thread Gary and so I obeyed the Lord and I responded by saying, “May God bless you Gary” or something to that affect…

    I believe that C. S. Lewis knew the Lord and I have been personally blessed by his books, “The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe”, “The Voyage of the Dawn Treader” & “The Final Battle” where I see clear allegories of our life with Christ illustrated…

    I have never let our children watch any of the Harry Potter series as I believe these carry pure demon presences…

    That is where I’m at in my conscience before God… :-)

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  219. I forgive you for all the jezebel, spirit of satan, quotes that were intended to harm others.

    I’m not exactly sure what specifically you are referring to from what I have said here on Revival School in the last couple of threads but again Gary I have a clear conscience before God about what I have said here on Revival School in the last couple of threads…

    This doesn’t mean that I am acquitted (as Paul says) as the One who examines me is the Lord… :-)

    But I have a clear conscience, I am not harbouring bitterness towards anyone here on Revival School and I am holding them all up before the Lord…

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  220. AJH,

    Thank you for clarifying this. I don’t remember you say anything over there about Lord bless you, but here is your exact quote:

    Quote: I will not be intimidated by attacks from the spirit of witchcraft on this site – which I have dedicated to the Glory of God…Quote…..

    Nothing was meant as an attack I wanted to know what you felt about the occult part of this situation.

    I wished you would of clarified it sooner. Rather then deleting all the posts of mine and others and making this statement.

    I don’t understand why some people become so defensive when your asking a simple question. I had read what others were saying about this on another site and felt maybe there was some truth to their statements and wanted some other opinions on what others thought of these movies and books.

    Thanks for letting me know here, I would of rather discussed it else where with you. :)

    Lord Bless,
    Gary

  221. Just to clarify again Gary, I said here on Revival School, “May the Lord bless you Gary” or words to that affect towards the end of the previous thread where you raised your queries about C. S. Lewis… :-)

    What I permit to be discussed on my own blogsite is my responsibility before the Lord – I am endeavouring to be obedient to Him in this respect… :-)

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  222. watchful May 10th 2013

    AM, it’s a sad day for that church when the only “man left standing” is an elderly lady and not a soul left in that assembly to stand with her……it reminds me of the days of Israel when God had to raise up a Deborah to be a mother in Israel because the menfolk were spiritually defeated. The situation in her church is the all-too common result of having only one “capital P” “Pastor” instead of the biblical precedent of having several elders/pastors who were “qualified” according to clear biblical instructions and could keep that eager young lion in check and help him to mature spiritually.

    The whole Body with ALL its parts is needed, with no part lording it over the others like the pagans do. This is God’s wisdom and badly needed due to human frailty which we all share in common. And EVERYONE needs to have their spiritual senses exercised as well in order for the WHOLE church to be built up………..explicitly stated in the epistles, but as always one needs to have eyes to see to see it, and not be blinded to it by the god of this world.

  223. watchful May 10th 2013

    So true and well said, Randall, Roger, Kevin, Gary B, Lightning Storm. Does my heart good to see there are a some still standing here and who are not afraid to preach the truth, because along with seduction, unfortunately intimidation is another common factor involved in manipulation. Witchcraft is a two-sided coin.

    What helps my discernment is just seeing when something is exactly the same and no different from what I was called out of. The same emotional flowery speeches, the same terminology and methods. I just compare all the hooey with the simplicity of Jesus and the apostles and it is easy to see the difference. No drama and emotionalism, no fireworks, just the still small voice and quiet workings, and glory going only to the One who works, not the clay vessel the He is carried in.

    But we don’t want to be like Lot’s daughters who had no faith in what was still unseen, and so took matters into their own hands and ended up giving birth to works that were at ENMITY with God. Spiritual incest instead of being betrothed and remaining chaste for their true Husband. If we wait patiently for Him, He WILL come.

  224. Barry Schmidt May 10th 2013

    Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. (Matthew 24:11, 12 NASB)

    Personally speaking I find it a great temptation to fortify myself against all the falsehood that is going on by allowing my love to grow cold- the very thing Jesus warned would happen to “most” in the face of the multiplication of false prophets in the churches.

    I find its easier for my love to grow cold, calculating and self protecting towards the whole church with the growing up of so many many weeds among the tares. The tares – like poison ivy- are so caustic I just want to shut myself out from the whole church.

    Problem with that is that in doing so my love has grown cold.
    LORD I don’t want to be a fulfilment of your prophesy. Let my heart bleed but don’t let my love grow cold, suspicious and calculating in the midst of this onslaught of falsehood.

  225. Amen Barry, Me too Lord I want to stay soft and support Your Church to be all that She is meant to be in this generation… :-)

  226. Barry Schmidt May 10th 2013

    Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:11, 12, 45-51 NASB)

    To me there is nothing more frightening than to think that at the Lords return I might not be found INSIDE the the Lords HOUSEHOLD faithfully feeding His people but rather that I would be found OUTSIDE of it verbally scourging and beating His other servants.

  227. Barry Schmidt May 10th 2013

    The three things I find most challenging about Jesus warning here is that the “evil” slave isn’t beating the members of the household but the other “slaves” and that the “evil” slave is a “slave” ( servant/ disciple / worker) and third that the “evil” slave is not a “hypocrite” but is assigned a place WITH the hypocrites.

    Scary that !!!

  228. Barry Schmidt May 10th 2013

    Thinking out loud here again- – If my love grows cold and if I spend my time verbally assaulting my fellow slaves ( criticizing and fault finding them) then I am no longer feeding the members of the Lords household- because in order to do that I have to be focusing on the LORDS OTHER SLAVES rather than feeding the household.

    Not only that but if I verbally beat my fellow slaves then that MAKES me a hypocrite:
    Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:3-5 NASB)

    All speaking out against false teaching and teaching must be in the context of feeding the flock and must never become a “PRE – occupation”. We as slaves are NOT called to finding false doctrine among our fellow slaves BUT TO FEEDING THE FLOCK!!!!

  229. Barry Schmidt May 10th 2013

    I wonder if this is why most para church “ministries” that focus entirely upon searching out for false teachers and false doctrines become abusive witch hunters???
    Could it be that if they spent their energies focusing on feeding Gods people the truth that they would only need to give the occasional warning to the sheep ??

  230. watchful May 10th 2013

    Agree with you Barry, as long as we are talking about the same kind of love. One kind of love is phoney, it is cultish, and rampant in the kinds of situations that are the topic of this thread. It is sent to DECEIVE. The other kind of love is not sensual/emotional and if it is love at all it will seek to UNDECEIVE.

  231. watchful May 10th 2013

    OH I am blessed this morning to be shown what kind of love it is that is tempted to wax cold in the face of unrelenting lawlessness………………….ZEAL FOR HIS HOUSE!!! and I wish I could make those letters LARGER!! How about I just repeat it instead then! The love that we are not to let wax cold is not talking about the huggie-buggie hooey kind of love, it is talking about ZEAL FOR HIS HOUSE!!!!!!! Just look up the definition of zeal……….JEALOUS ARDOUR!!! FOR HIS HOUSE!!!! The kind of love Jesus has betrothed us to Himself with!!!!!!!!!!! And book-ended His ministry with! THANK YOU FATHER!!!

    No wonder we are being inundated with all these little discouragements CONSTANTLY like the drip drip drip of a leaky tap, trying to wear you down, whenever you try to wake people up and warn them. HA!

  232. HHHLGA May 10th 2013

    Encouraging One Another

    Being burdened, I wrote this before the closing of the last article, (Bad Charismatic Habits..Needing Broken..)

    The topic of the ‘flattery witchcraft spirit’ emerged in the last article posted. I am certain it will surface again, (as I now see, it has) as that spirit of our enemy always comes in with suspicion, confusion and division, every time. Again, the discussions pique and flare. Anger and accusations creep in and begin to dominate. The Beautiful Christ Bride, becomes – something else, altogether distorted. God will then convict someone, perhaps a few, and repentance begins stirring to the confession and verbal restitution for ‘word offences’. – a group turns back toward unity. It seems to be a ‘good word spoken in a needy time’, (a word fitly spoken Proverbs 25:11) which prompts and restores accord. The Bride looks in the mirror, is horrified, and cleans up. Will this (returning/repenting) occur if people believe their uplifting (spoken blessings) ‘words of encouragement’, to be perceived as ’empty flattery,and subtle mind control intended to malign’? Can we give and receive spoken word blessings, if flattery is seen behind every positive word or gesture (smiley-face hug) ? Perhaps, a consideration of the difference between ‘words which build up’ and ‘words which destroy’? …that we do not confuse the two. We are charged to build and encourage the Body with an unfeigned love toward all Saints, never to flatter for the approval of men or personal gain. Some were left with suspicion from encouraging words received; while others felt afraid to sincerely encourage others, lest they would be seen as ‘flattering’ another. We do need to be sober and vigilant here, but suspecting each Saint who desires to give encourage words, stifles DESTROYS, unity and oneness. I found this good article, and felt we might gain in the differentiating between flattery and edifying words meant to build up others. I have read many books on verbally -blessings vs. cursings, and the power to good through words given in love. I desire greatly, to speak uplifting words to every person I am able. I believe it is God who has given me this desire; knowing the deep needs of hurting people. Everyone needs encouraging-everyone! Many here know the power of spoken words to good and evil. Godly people have learned and shared wisdom (Born Anew Christians), on the ministry and power of spoken encouraging.
    ——————
    (Encouragement: The Key To Caring) – Drs. Larry Crabb and Dan Allender) Encouragement. It’s more than a compliment or a pat on the back. According to Drs. Larry Crabb and Dan Allender, it is the most basic form of counseling — a skill that can be mastered by laypeople as well as counselors. What must we know in order to fulfill the biblical exhortation to ‘encourage one another’? Encouragement: The Key to Caring tells you. Part one deals with understanding encouragement, and part two explores the process of encouragement, including such practical how-tos as – developing a careful selection of encouraging words – cultivating active listening skills – using biblical fellowship to move beyond superficial smiles and shallow greetings – recognizing subtle opportunities for encouragement — Without the encouragement of a caring community, biblical truth taught in church tends to just thicken people’s defense layers. But authenticity, freedom, and greater love for God and others are the fruit of encouragement, and evidence of the tremendous power God invests in individuals and churches who practice it.
    —————–
    (Words That Hurt and Heal) – Joseph Telushkin is renowned for his warmth, his erudition, and his richly anecdotal insights, and in Words That Hurt, Words That Heal he focuses these gifts on the words we use in public and in private, revealing their tremendous power to shape relationships. With wit and wide-ranging intelligence, Rabbi Telushkin explains the harm in spreading gossip, rumors, or others’ secrets, and how unfair anger, excessive criticism, or lying undermines true communication. By sensitizing us to subtleties of speech we may never have considered before, he shows us how to turn every exchange into an opportunity.
    Remarkable for its clarity and practicality, Words That Hurt, Words That Heal illuminates the powerful effects we create by what we say and how we say it.
    —————–
    (The Language of Love: How to Quickly Communicate Your Feelings and Needs) – GarySmalley, John T. Trent

    3.81 of 5 star
    Words have incredible meaning, especially when they say what you mean. But often tongues get tied, and thoughts and ideas are expressed in ways that are easily misunderstood. Make the most of your messages by learning “The Language of Love.” Written by best-selling authors Gary Smalley and John Trent, it shows how “emotional word pictures” can infuse understanding and intimacy into all of your relationships. Great for personal growth, small-group studies, or couples classes.—-
    —————–
    (The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts) Gary Chapman

    Marriage should be based on love, right? But does it seem as though you and your spouse are speaking two different languages? New York Times bestselling author Dr. Gary Chapman guides couples in identifying, understanding, and speaking their spouse’s primary love language-quality time, words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, or physical touch.
    ——————–

    I found this good article, and felt we might gain in the differentiating between flattery and edifying words meant to build up others. The Complement of Flattery

    http://www.thefaithfulword.org/flattery.html

    Whatever words come out of a Christian’s mouth must be sincere and true. They must be intentionally crafted to benefit someone else and not to satisfy our own selfish desires. Our speech must encourage others to do good and to be holy. What we say must never be designed to cause others to be ingratiated to us but to Christ.

    Christians ought to adopt the following patterns of discernment.

    When speaking:

    Evaluate your motives to determine if your speech is for the benefit of the hearer (loving speech) or to gain a personal advantage over others (selfish speech).
    Offer compliments that are in balance with the value of what has been done for you by others.
    Be scrupulously honest with your words, speak only truth and avoid exaggerations or outright falsehoods.
    When being spoken to:

    Be discerning regarding the speech that others direct toward you.
    Train yourself to identify praise that is unearned or beyond reasonable expectations–Romans 16:18 states that the deceit of flattery works when it is unexpected.
    Recognize that flattery (unwarranted or excessive praise) is designed to mislead you and cause you to be open to selfish manipulation by the speaker.
    Advise the one who is speaking flattery that they are not being accurate in their speech.
    Avoid subjecting yourself to very much flattery lest you begin to believe the deceits they convey.
    Just as truth complements love, so dishonesty and insincerity complement flattery. Flattery and selfishness are hunting companions that feed off the capture and ruin of others….

    ——————-

    “Encourage” is a translation of the Greek word parakaleo, which comes from roots meaning to be called alongside, or to stand with. God has called us to stand together, so that we might continually give hope, courage and support to one another. Hebrews 10:24-25 gives that purpose as a major reason that we should meet together: “Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another.”
    – Joseph Tkach

  233. LGA,

    What your saying is true but it is involving normal conversation and interacting with people you know or meet, and can see their facial expressions and mannerisms while talking.

    On the internet is appears to be a whole different ballgame, because of the nature of writing our thoughts and not being able to say everything we think or feel about the subject. It can invariably be taken the wrong way.

    Its overcoming when you are just making a point about something and then someone grabs a few words out of your comment and tries to make an issue of what your saying with a complete different thought pattern.

    I don’t think we can see each others reaction on the internet so we assume a lot of things. For instance, a person is mad, he is angry, has an attitude, is shouting scriptures while all along this is not happening at all. Its all imagined in how a comment is perceived.

    What about asking people questions? Some become defensive, suspicious, overly alarmed like your doing something wrong. I don’t know of anyone here who has a spirit of witchcraft and I don’t think its right to claim this about someone, who is a brother in Christ until you would have positive proof. That is a very powerful accusation.

    There have been those promoting new age, cult type thinking(Mormonism, etc.)and heresy.

    What about Flattery? Flattery does happen but a few smiley faces or just being nice is far different.

    Def. of flattery:

    1a : the act or practice of flattering
    b (1) : something that flatters (2) : insincere or excessive praise
    obsolete : a pleasing self-deception

    I’m just saying writing words in comments is a whole different aspect compared to speaking to them in person.

    GaryB

  234. Doug P. May 10th 2013
  235. Richard Savage May 10th 2013

    Doug P: Peretz is absolutely correct. There can be no equality between Jew and Gentile in Israel. The Land, Eretz, was given the children of Israel, they hold it in trust of God; all others are sojourners to whom the children of Israel have clear God-given responsibilities. Indeed, sojurners have some rights.

    But equals they are not!

  236. I understand what you’re saying HHHLGA… :-)

    You are an encouragement to me… :-)

    And if people think that’s flattery then God bless them… :-)

    Be encouraged sister and keep encouraging the brethren… :-)

    The Lord GOD has given Me the tongue of disciples, That I may know how to sustain the weary one with a word. He awakens Me morning by morning, He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple. The Lord GOD has opened My ear; And I was not disobedient Nor did I turn back. (Isaiah 50:4-5 NASB)

    Those of us who can see what is going on need to be steadfast in the face of persecution… :-)

    Not all will understand us and that is OK – not all understood Jesus… :-)

    Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isaiah 53:4 NASB)

    We know when the spirit of condemnation is coming against us – we feel it in the spirit (the spiritual realm) – and we need to learn not to fight it but to respond in love by lifting those ones who it is using up before the Lord…

    But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. (Luke 23:34 NASB)

    May the Spirit of Encouragement – the Holy Spirit Himself – fill this website with God Ordained Divine Encouragement and Joy – let the Joy of the Lord fill this website in Jesus Name… :-)

    May the spirit of suspicion leave and may true discernment come – discernment to know the true from the false and a witness in our hearts of the true – in Jesus Name… :-)

    Praise You Jesus…

    You always win…

    Hallelujah!!!

    Let discernment come…

    You are a blessing HHHLGA and let no one dissuade you from continuing to be so… :-)

    Love you sister,

    Andrew

  237. WHAT is love
    LOVE is all for the OTHERS welfare.
    LOVE can never accept sin in another, knowing full
    well if they remain in sin their end is death.
    SO love wil do all to to warn any in a sin
    to get out quick or the end is death.
    Love will never compromise the ORDER to which
    GOD, who is LOVE, has placed things.
    TODAY i want us all, ME, and all of us to PONDER THIS.
    then examine our own selves, then pray GOD
    to forgive us all where we have fallen short.
    THEN understand
    that the LOVE many speak of today……………..is not LOVE based on TRUTH, but sensual false love.
    One which focuses on the kingdom of this world, its cares and pleasures, and accepts sin with hugs and encouragment
    RATHER than going toward the lost, or unrepentant sinner in church, and FIXING the PROBLEM with the WORDS of GOD.
    instead it blends and mixes mens thoughts with some bible truth
    and instead of one being set free
    they have no real fear, of the GOD being preached in churches,
    and have no real fear, or desire to COME OUT of sin.
    its a sensual love based on HOW TO BUILD numbers
    and focused on relationships without the TRUE realtionship
    of the TRUE CHRIST.
    an example of many is how they approach marriage, homosexualtiy,
    talking about reconciling etc…….
    WHEN IF ONE TAUGHT SIMPLY
    BE YE RECONCILED TO GOD. THEN all else would
    occur. TILL one is reconciled in GOD
    they will always live for self and their relationships
    will never truly be , nor their salvation for that matter.
    men of the years gone by, wives, etc
    LIVED UNTO GOD, then all else came into place.
    AFTER that warn how to live and walk.
    But today not only is that not first taught, it aint taught at all.
    all religoins have relationships, and some of the kindest
    and good works are in hindu and buddist. YET THEY aint saved.
    so now in the end, the church is going the same way.
    and focuses on wordly relationships and works
    RATHER THAN THE ONE WORK requried for salvation.
    CHRISTJESUS.
    after DOING and continuing to DO the ONE WORK
    then understand, Works without faith is dead.
    BUT know this o men ……………that all the works, and good things,
    all the sensual love and warm feelings of peace and unity
    WILL SAVE NO MAN. but kills and is death.
    works without the TRUE WORK, which is to believe and JESUS
    then walk as did HE, will only end in death.
    TIME FOR BIBLE TRUTH.

  238. Faith without works is dead
    works without faith is death.
    WHY would men be teaching the koran in churches
    and using the excuse we need to understand it
    so as we can all work together for peace and unity.
    YET rick warren and others are doing just that.
    this new age move is getting all religions to come together
    under the same GOD.
    ONLY it aint the GOD of the bible.
    yet since none has corrected the leaven of days of old
    its waxed so fat, this is now emerging in churches.
    THAT there is NO NEED to prosteltize our faith
    that all should just come together for the cause of world peace and unity. and the masses are beginning to SUCK it up quick.
    a lil leaven as once said, left unchecked and burnt out
    will end up with what we are seeing today.
    nigh the end, only a remanant who stand for the truth and wont compromise will be REWARDED,
    but understand, first comes the great dearth against
    any who dont end up going their way.
    WE are nigh the end, and had better get grounded in CHRIST
    adn sound doctrine. amen.

  239. TEST the spirits……………
    HOW do we know we hear of CHRIST.
    HOW does one test what he hears………..
    the flesh is always contrary, men teach many things……..
    how can one know HE hears of the TRUE CHRIST
    and not be swept away by the deciet of men
    and cunning crafitness and swung to and for
    with every false doctrine.
    HEAR WHAT PAUL said.
    BY GETTING GROUNDED in the HOLY DOCTRINE.
    o my lil children of whom i travial in birth
    till CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU.
    say that again…………TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU.
    now thems true apsoltes of days gone long by
    wrote letters, gosples recorded and holy doctrine recorded.
    I SUGGEST instead of listening to the new ones
    WE GO AGAIN and listen to………..how did peter put it…..
    OH………….THOSE WHO WERE WITH HIM and HAD THE MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY
    whereunto this church would DO WELL to TAKE HEED.
    i grow weary with a few men who attack the bible.
    this NEEDS STOP NOW.
    by getting people OUT of the bible and under men
    is HOW the false doctrine can be taught, not tested
    and followed. TEST ALL YOU HEAR>

  240. ANDREW…………….i never even heard of KEVIN
    till just recently.
    as for roger and i………..You bet we witnessed atrocity
    of our last sight.
    sensuality is a KILLER andrew and it starts ever so small.
    then gets worse and worse.
    as far as any being here from our last sight
    i have yet to indetify them.
    BUT the sensualty , now that is . and its starting to compromise
    in HOW we live and what we do.

  241. Well that was quick.
    my last post never posted.
    but that is sensuality new age.

  242. That’s cool Randall, I was just wondering… :-)

    I’ve seen a certain aspect “pushed” by a certain poster here over the last couple of years…

    A belief that hell (the lake of fire and brimstone) isn’t real and that God is “all loving” (i.e. He will leave the guilty unpunished)…

    This belief talks about the Baptism of Fire as if everyone (even those who don’t believe in the Lord) will experience it and somehow magically end up “all good” with God and not experience any eternal punishment for their sin (which they didn’t repent of during their earthly lives)…

    This has been presented very subtly but continuously here (it comes with the person who posts it) and I don’t like it…

    To me that is sensual…

    Just being honest…

    Anything which “worms in” and trys to get our “Amen” but we feel “yucky” about on the inside is not of the Lord…

    That’s my understanding on that one…

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  243. Has anyone here ever had a post get lost.
    my next to last post was explaining an example of what
    sensuality new age thought is
    and i guess it got lost, or i mis hit something.
    Be blessed lambs………….and TEST ALL.
    YOUR GOING TO HAVE TO. WE ALL HAVE TO.

  244. ANDREW………………..if one posts that
    you have to in LOVE and all LOVE of truth
    warn them. THEN if after , they wont hear
    YOU MUST have them leave.
    IT is not because we dont love them, or desire
    them to perish.
    ITS because some are not as well learned as others
    and this could HARM the flock.
    I warned pete to do this as well.
    YET he remiained in contact with that man
    and in the end, HE was apostacized.
    their words can eat as does a chancor on the soul.
    ROGER and I know , we witnessed the sad fall of this man
    first hand. Andrew with all love
    if i were you, PLEASE put LEWIS down.
    PRAY hard about this. But believe me
    many are running after the new religon
    and see the truths in other religions.
    just as maybe you saw some alleogries in that movie
    the whole of the APPROACH is WRONG.
    just please set it aside, please.

  245. what i am saying is…………………
    the dark one is getting people to line up with this new
    religoin which teaches the GOD is GOD of all religions
    and they FOCUS on the similarities of the religons to justify
    their belief. they are in show biz
    and to win christains to their cuase they focus on the parts of the other religions to get them to believe GOD is in all religions,
    that men messed it up. BUT THIS IS A LIE.
    GOD is ONLY GOD of those IN CHRIST
    though he created all and is the creator of all.
    ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST WILL BE SAVED.
    please consider carefully what i said above
    about LEWIS. many men make money off of even
    christain fiction, and that movie wasnt even christain
    fiction. I aint judging or rebuking harshily.
    I am instead praying very hard you just cast it all aside
    and begin anew.
    I would want any man to warn me, if they saw i was in
    a place where i could slip.
    THIS is the ONLY reason i am warning you.
    the LOVE OF CHRIST compels me.
    LET us all begin anew , today. in CHRIST amen.

  246. If I have offended your conscience Randall and Gary by mentioning the “redemption analogies” which I saw as we watched, “The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe” with my three younger children (or anything else to do with C. S. Lewis) then I would like to ask you both to forgive me…

    I don’t want to offend anyone’s conscience…

    I will desist from mentioning any more “redemptive analogies” regarding C. S. Lewis’ writings here so as not to offend your brothers consciences… :-)

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  247. HHHLGA,

    Regarding seducing spirits and flattery , this has to be seen in the context of what the articles are about , which is the way that false teachers come to gain power and influence over others.

    Regarding condemnation , no one who truly knows Lord Jesus Christ and is speaking to encourage others under His prompting , will know or feel condemnation.

    If our motives are pure and we are encouraging others for the good of the Kingdom, then we will not feel any condemnation.

    Condemnation comes through our flesh from the enemy.

    If people have a desire of the flesh to be accepted my others , and seek approval by flattery that is not of Christ , then they would have felt conviction from the Holy Spirit, which is not condemnation

    If anyone walks in this way of the flesh , and doesn’t come to see it and lay it down, the old foe will eventually use it against them .

    We have to speak openly and plainly about about the works and fruit of the enemy , who comes to lead others into deception, for this is the purpose of the articles that are posted on this site.

  248. Barry ,

    re your thoughts about the evil slave, my understanding and experience of this is different from yours.

    What I have seen and experienced is that the evil slave is the one in a position of authority who interferes with the slaves who are trying to feed the way and truth of Christ , the bread of live .

    In real terms how this has played out , is that many true servants have been driven out of traditional fellowships , simply because they wanted to only feed the true bread that gives life, and they were not willing to poison the food , even after being beaten and abused by the one in authority.

    What I see with these ones who have being driven out is that they continue on to feed and disciple those whom our Lord brings to them.

    I don’t believe any of these true servants would not got back ” in ” to feed and tend to the flock if ” called ” back to do so..

    It is not that they have left their proper place, is was that they were being beaten and pushed into serving a different master.

    Those that I have seen , have grown and become more established in Christ after they were driven out, and they are willing to go back in if called to do so, however they are still feeding and tending to the many who are not in the traditional fellowships.

    The whole concept of out or in is flawed.

    The true church is the Body of Christ .

    For many the only place the can effectively serve is away from the controlling religious spirits that demand that they serve a different master.
    Some do have a ministry to stay in this environment to feed those caught up in the crossfire.
    Those who are called to serve this way will know this clearly from our Lord Jesus Christ.

  249. Sorry Marilyn, it is Friday night here and i am only getting to my computer now, maybe you would like to contact me by email at –

    [email protected]

    Blessings.

  250. For any who might feel that the focus on false teachers and the false church is somehow unnecessary or damaging in some way, do you realize how much of the Bible contains warnings about these things ?

    The problem with the false gospel is that is takes only the blessings and does not teach all the warnings.

    This is why I believe that many are now highlighting the warnings to bring the balance of the full gospel back.

    Having said that , I do agree that we are not to become witch hunters , so to speak, and that all are called to focus on Jesus , the author and perfecter of our faith
    .

  251. We all need to differentiate between those who are simply mixed up and being led unto the truth of Lord Jesus Christ,,,

    ,,,and those who come to teach and control and push their false doctrine.

    We are all growing and learning daily in our walk with Lord Jesus Christ , and this is evidenced by humility and a willingness to learn and surrender up things to our Lord and to walk in repentance and stay one with Him.

    In doing this, we will all go through stages of walking in and believing error at times and as such are called to love one another and encourage one another to follow after our Lord Jesus Christ.
    The articles and comments about false teachers are not aimed at people walking this way.

    ++++

    The problem is those who come to teach , push and defend the false doctrine , with an agenda , seeking validation and acceptance , in order to gain the confidence of others, often using deceiving words of flattery , seeking to impress with their super spirituality .

    ++++

    We can all examine our true motives under the light of Lord Jesus Christ, therefore there is no need for anyone who is simply trying to walk after, and follow Lord Jesus Christ , to feel any condemnation, from the warnings that are contained in the written word .

    If we feel any doubt , suspicion, guilt or uncertainty, then all that any of us have to do is to surrender all we think we know back unto Lord Jesus Christ , asking Him to set us free from any deception that is not of His truth.

    In His love

    Kevin

  252. watchful May 10th 2013

    Beautifully said comments Kevin……..

    Regarding witch hunting and suspicion, I find that people resort to that unfortunately when they don’t have discernment. With discernment one doesn’t have to be ‘suspicious’ because one ‘knows’ when something is off, subject to confirmation.

    The whole issue of condemnation is an important one. Many of us ‘raised up’ in these churches fell away from grace without realizing it and it makes us anxious about our status with God and feeling like we have to “perform”. I didn’t realize it myself until quite some time after leaving the churches and just getting my roots down deeper in God with the Holy Spirit as my guide, and then He restored me back to grace, like a leap of faith, letting go of myself to cling to Jesus. There is an aspect that those who are not in grace can’t afford to love the truth because of feeling condemnation, because let’s face it, the truth is often not flattering to us, our flesh……………but there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I think this is one danger of going back into churches etc, too soon is that it can lead to falling away from grace again and back into works. The answer if we have fallen away from Christ Jesus (grace) to turn around and come back to Him, as Randall said, begin anew, and without condemnation……..it’s just like walking down the road in a wrong direction and deciding to change direction, and actually it is our Shepherd who comes to get us if we have wandered into unsafe pastures. His rod and His staff, they comfort me. He loves us with a jealous love!

  253. Roger (NZ) May 11th 2013

    I praise God that He gives others, words to share, that express truth..

    Thankyou both Watchful and Kevin.

  254. Roger (NZ) May 11th 2013

    “…We are living in the last days. These are perilous times according to the Scriptures and the events unfolding in the church and in the world. This is a time for godly leadership to make the right decisions. This is a time for true shepherds to lead the sheep and protect them from the wolves the Bible warns are out to devour the sheep.

    Unfortunately, the wolves are getting bolder and bolder in many churches and organizations. Because we live in the last days, apostasy abounds, and the sheep don’t know it. Many have been put to sleep by false teachers who are masquerading as shepherds.

    It seems to me that pastors who play the role of a shepherd need more than ever to keep their eyes focused on Jesus, the true shepherd and stay true to His Word. When they get their eyes on human shepherds because they are popular or successful, they have the potential to be led astray….”

    The above quote taken from an article by Roger Oakland, here: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c129shepherdsorwolves.shtml

  255. AJH,

    It’s okay brother it did not offend my conscience.

    I just feel that anything that reeks of any occultic magic involving witches, etc., is something that Christians should avoid.

    Just replying to your comment not trying to beat a dead dog to death.

    BTW I know you will do good as a song leader. Enjoyed your music clips.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  256. Lightning Storm May 11th 2013

    Here’s a helpful hint if you can’t hear the Holy Spirit of Discernment.

    If a teaching EXALTS the Sovereignty of God and His Holy Nature, then it will line up with scripture, because scripture is a TESTAMENT to the Sovereignty and the Nature of God.

    God’s plans for His creation ALIGN with His Sovereignty and Nature.

    If a teaching EXALTS Man and his nature, then it contradicts the TESTAMENT of the scriptures.

    The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are MANIFESTATIONS/REFLECTIONS of God’s Sovereignty and His NEVER CHANGING MULTI-FACETED NATURE.

    The kingdom of darkness, the world/devil/man’s flesh, EXALTS man and man’s will, abilities, powers, accomplishments, experiences, plans, goals, feelings, opinions, speculations, desires.

    In Adam, death was imposed upon ALL men APART FROM THEIR WILL.

    Romans 8:20 For the creation was SUBJECTED to futility, NOT OF ITS OWN WILL, but because of Him Who SUBJECTED it in joyful and confident expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    So also, Christ’s death on the cross has nothing to do with the will of man, but only by the will of God Himself. Both Adam and Christ did their work beyond the will of mankind in general.

    however, let us remember that there is a second death, where mankind is indeed held accountable for their own sin. There are two deaths in Scripture. The first was done outside of our will, and so it was resolved outside of our will. But the second death is different, for God holds each man accountable for his actions.

  257. watchful May 11th 2013

    Roger, I am blessed by your humility around here, and pray to be more like that, it is beautiful to see and glorifying to the Lord. I suspect myself of being a little too ‘loud-mouthy’ at times, if you ever feel to pray for me about that I would be grateful.

  258. Roger (NZ) May 11th 2013

    Watchful – sincerely, and in Christ Jesus – thankyou.

    I was trying to say before (and I failed) that there are some comments where I read, in words, the thoughts that I cannot easily express. This to me is Almighty God being revealed through others lives, for His glory..

    We need to find a smiley symbol, for a hug in Christ Jesus.

  259. Marilyn Crow May 11th 2013

    Ken. Thank you & will do.

    Watchful.
    You are always so refreshing & I love to read what God says through you. Sometimes we all get a `roll,` with thoughts & conversation & other times we sit back. I`ve been tired but really want to share on what you & Kevin said, `focus on Christ.` & Kevin also added the `author & perfecter of our faith.`

    So let`s `feed,` & meditate on Him.

    Christ is the author of our Salvation & precedes all others. He stands supreme & pre-eminent, without peer or competitor.

    We may have a multitude of authors in connection with literature, history, dictionaries, encyclopedias etc but there is only one Author of Salvation. In this greatest of all authorships Christ stands absolutely & eternally alone.

    `Neither is there Salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.` (Acts 4: 12)

    Likewise He is the sole Author of the faith which appropriates the Salvation.

    `For by grace are ye saved through faith, & that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.` (Eph.2: 8)

    In order to qualify for the authorship of eternal Salvation it is essential that the one who plans the project should know all about everything, be able to do anything & be available everywhere to undertake for anyone & everyone always & altogether.

    This means nothing short of possessing the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence & omnipresence.Christ who exercises these infinite powers, is therefore eminently fitted, suited & eternally qualified to be the Saviour.

    Our Lord`s suitability & capacity as Author is revealed in scripture.He already holds the distinction as the Author of eternal ages & abiding life. He is surely our Substitute with sufficiency to satisfy the heart & mind. He is most qualified because of His sovereign strength to perfect forever them that are sanctified.

    The whole of His saving work is based on His own worthiness. His holiness & honour stand highest in heaven. The Salvation Christ accomplished does not depend on human behaviou but on the Beloved Son Himself, for

    `He became the Author of eternal Salvation unto all them that obey Him.` (Heb. 5: 9)

    This doesn`t speak of short lived deliverance from trouble & trivialities, but of deliverance from the domain of the devil, & from the dominion of sin & death forever.

    His precious blood supplies a permanent basis for the peace of Salvation, while His intercession which rests upon His indestructibility insures our Salvation even to the uttermost. His consecration makes way for our acceptance in a ceaseless communion, holy & without blame before Him in love. (Eph.1:4 Heb. 7:25)

    Our Blessed Saviour is truely & adorably the Author of Salvation.

    (Summary from C.J.Rolls)

    How awesome is His Authorship. Marilyn.

  260. Serenity May 11th 2013

    And while we are discussing such issues that are ‘alive’ in our culture, souls like Prakash are dying and going to eternity without a saviour, never having heard any gospel.

    ‘Prakash’ went to the Ganges in March 2013 to bathe in the polluted river on the most auspicious day to obtain forgiveness of sins. He came back home with the emptiness still inside. Now he knows that his religion was not the true one.
    Gospel for Asia – GFA – trains and sends people who speak Prakash’s language. We are invited to sponsor one or more of these native missionaries.
    Can I do anything less ?

    ‘Prakash’ represents one of the unreached hundreds who went to eternity today.

  261. Marilyn Crow May 11th 2013

    Serenity.

    That is truely God`s heart cry. That is why God is working through those here to personally pray for those discipling others overseas.

    That is why God has us here personally to work so we can raise money to continually support those discipling others.

    That is why God sent His Son who Himself reveals Himself to all who are searching.

    East, West, Rich, poor….for it is by His Spirit.

    `Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit.` says the Lord.

    It can seem overwhelming as news, information & pictures flood our screens But if we obey the Lord, pray, give, trust Him there will be –

    `a great multitude, which no one could count from every nation & all tribes & peoples & tongues ……` (Rev. 7: 9)

    Thank you Serenity for the reminder not to get off balance in our walk.

    Marilyn.

  262. Jda016 May 11th 2013

    Dear Gary and Randall,

    Do you see C.S. Lewis to be a false teacher?

    I’m genuinely interested. I have only ever heard his praises sung and I have read some of his fiction, literary analysis, and Christian teachings. I never got the distinct impression that he was on the wrong track (like Andrew I have enjoyed Lewis’ allegories). While his fiction included witches and mythological creatures, I never truly saw them as of the occult.

    But I am curious on what you guys believe about Lewis.

    Blessings”

    Jonathan

  263. I love you all!!!!!!!!!!!
    Roger is right on………………these be the last days……..
    perilous times are coming .
    due to un purged leaven , which started small in churches
    leaven unpurged out………..has grown massive to todays
    iniquity still in churches.
    Even a secular author knows and says christians are massively selling out, and abandoning the faith of the bible
    for the changing times.
    What is evil is that in less than a month the world has went
    from 11 countries to now fourteen supporting same sex marriage,
    but what is APOSTACY is christains love to have this so.
    and churches are fast having to make a choice.
    more and more are either silent or are supporting it.
    I honestly dont know how much fuller the iniquity has to be
    before the dark one stands and leads all to amergeddon.
    even two more states in less than a month in amercia now support it. And choices to either abandon bible truth
    and go with the flow, or not conform to the world.
    just know if you ever go with the hug em and tell em all is okay,
    GOD loves them………….YOU will be held accountable for their blood and your soul will not be delivered.
    I know by standing firm on TRUTH will mean persecutions and
    worse ones coming soon. BUT I PROMISE you all ONE THING
    THE REWARD at the END is worth it all
    and the saving of just one of their souls is too.
    a soul in bondage of sin, is just that bondage and death is the end.
    BUT a soul set free by the GRACE OF GOD, has all hope.
    amen.

  264. IF you love them set them free ……..
    if you hate them lie and tell them its not sin.
    i aint advocating holding signs etc
    What i am advocating in NEVER SELLING the truth
    and being the seed which sprung up quick
    but in tempations fell away being offend for the word.
    Already i be mocked at work.
    a few have even come in singing joy to the LORD etc
    all the while smirking. I SAY MAY GOD FORGIVE them
    and give them the same MERCY HE did me.
    BUT i am warning all………………big time persecutions are coming.
    I truly desire not a one to perish……..
    but if they dont come to CHRIST and repent
    they will. and that i cannot have on my hands.
    they hate me, yes…………….
    but i remember all the evil i done agaisnt man and GOD
    and GOD still came and gave me Grace.
    and i know that no matter how harsh i suffer in this life
    tis but a fraction of the suffering i deserved in hellfire,
    but by GRACE am saved.
    so come what may TO GOD BE THE GLORY . amen.

  265. Portions of article above:

    This gospel is mixed with compromise. This
    gospel is impure and defiled religion. This gospel offers a humanistic, self-help message that taps New Age principles.

    False teachers are using familiar Scriptures to
    justify their stance, but they´ve essentially turned the Bible into a book of fables and fairy tales.

    Jesus put it this way: “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,´shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    “I don´t care who doesn´t like it”. I´m taking the apostle Paul´s advice:
    “Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince,
    rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time
    will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according
    to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will
    heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away
    from the truth, and be turned aside to fables” (2 Tim. 4:2-4).
    Quotes from the article above………………………….

    God’s Word is God’s Will? Right!

    Jennifer LeClaire says when it comes to the false gospel, I don’t care who doesn’t like it, I’m taking Paul’s advice.

    In some respect that sounds harsh. But I take somethings to heart when I think it is backed by the Word.

    When it comes to someones comments concerning so called grey areas, or should I say you cannot go to some specific teaching but you take a number of scriptures to reach a conclusion on a matter.

    Does this constitute being legalistic or should I say being to harsh? Its hard to convey what I am thinking here.

    At the same time you want to be nice to a person but in writing the comments on a subject it can come across as though you blasting them.

    Anyway I am thinking about myself here, Am I being way to harsh in digging my heels in and trying to tackle something I think is wrong? At the same time I do not want to personally hurt anyone.

    Please tell me bluntly, I will not take offense, If my writing style is too abrasive?

    Maybe everyone sees the things mentioned in comments and don’t waste the time of day on some subjects that come across as new age, unless they try to push these doctrines.

    In America we are not timid but maybe to vocal at times.

    I would appreciate any wisdom or help here. I’m thinking maybe its better to just zone in on scripture related thoughts.

    There is a need to mention false Teachers deceiving the masses, but then we run into the individuals who follow them and take what they say as gospel. Some of these people show up here. What is the best approach in dealing with the issues?

    I’m just not wanting to be overly abrasive. Still a work in progress and wanting to learn, maybe its called internet etiquette, I don’t know. :)

    GaryB

  266. SO LETS END THIS NIGHT SINGING
    TO THE LORD BE ALL GLORY………….
    Blessed be the LORD
    the savoir of my soul…….
    and i encourage us all to encourage one another
    and to lift one another up in prayer
    and may souls be won.
    HOW the church came into the world, its beginning in CHRIST
    seems to be HOW we shall be going out.
    HEAVY PERSECUTION. BUT……………..FAITH BLOSSOMS
    and the gosple gets spread. town to town as we have to move about. being persecuted and hunted down.
    Many are going to be killed. this has been already written in daniel, concerning son of perdition
    and Christ confirmed to to the very first apostels
    how harsh the very end of days would be for believers.
    The first apostels walked with HIM and watched him descend.
    we never got to see that.
    BUT BLESSED are those WHO have Not seen and yet believe.
    the end is coming.
    But just think…………………..THE GLORY TO BE REVEALED at HIS COMING. amen.

  267. Serenity May 11th 2013

    You are telling the truth, Randall.
    When the churches – bodies which say they follow Jesus Christ – or rather, a pastor or pastors, speak clearly and call ‘same-sex marriage’ sin, then we will find out just how tolerant our society is.
    ‘All who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.’ That goes with the territory of being a Christ-follower.
    As you say, ”no matter how harsh I suffer in this life, tis but a fraction of the suffering I deserved in hellfire”.

    Thank You, Jesus.

  268. THE end of all who hold dear the gosple
    is ONLY the BEGINNING of a life none has yet
    to know. a life free from these bodies of death.
    the end for the unbeliever is not so.
    IF we love them, let us go out forgiving all
    and winning souls.
    and do all as unto GOD. its coming
    and i just dont know that we have much time left.
    BUt as i said…………………we have HOPE ,
    some may still be alive at HIS COMING
    many will have been killed or sleep as in days and ages gone by.
    BUT both groups, SHALL RISE at HIS COMING.
    in a moment…………………..a flicker of time,
    and WE shall be HOME………..
    have no fear……………..JESUS IS OUR HOPE
    have no fear……………WE of all men have all HOPE.
    i love you all. my prayer and hope in heart
    is to see you all one day……….IN THE KINGDOM
    in JOYOUS singing for all who overcame the world
    by FAITH in CHRIST. amen.
    fOR all who endured faithful till the end.
    Andi pray not a lamb be lost. amen. and more souls won.

  269. Serenity May 11th 2013

    Marilyn : You are always gracious and understanding towards everyone. Thank you sister. God bless.

  270. Serenity……………..the call will soon be given
    I COUNSEL thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire that ye may be rich. THE TRIALS of our faith.
    all GOD LOVES he chastens and scourges for our profit.
    and correct you are……………..all who live GODLY in CHRIST shall suffer persecutons.
    in truth if the world accepts us…………SOMETHING is wrong.
    THE WORLD NEVER loved CHRIST
    Why on earth do so many christains seem to want to prove this wrong is beyond me.
    IF they have called the MASTER of the HOUSE BEELZEBUB
    HOW MUCH MORE you……..
    if they have persecuted me…………….they will you too.
    IF the world hates you, know that it hated me first.
    many christains have been persecuted through all ages.
    Why do some now teach we wont endure tribulation
    but get special treatment.
    sounds way too the easy lie, i men life , okay both
    to me.
    some dont want nothing to do with the suffering that comes with LOVING and EMBRACING the CROSS, CHRIST and EVERY WORD OF GOD.
    ME…………………..Whether by life or death,
    i PRAY and say ALOUD…………MAY CHRIST be MAGNIGIED in my BODY……………………TO GOD BE THE GLORY
    he saved a wretch like me……….and i am THANKFUL. amen.

  271. SOME here may attack……..
    BUT I PROMISE you know not the EDIFICATION and HOPE i had in SPIRIT by even writing those words………..
    So lifted up in heart and such peace and joy and hope.
    THE TRUTH sets one free. and GODS will is all they want.
    FOR they have HOPE…………….
    its all about the reward…………………..
    its all about the GLORY to be revealed.
    And praise GOD through it all.
    as paul once said……………I RATHER GLORY in mine infirmites that the POWER of CHRIST be upon me.
    THERFORE i TAKE PLEASURE IN…………..
    and go read that liST
    PAULS HEART WAS ABOVE. the carnal mind of man
    can never grasp the true JOY and HOPE paul and others who love the TRUTH have.
    for many only joy in what is seen, when they have
    they happy, when they dont they pout
    ME………….I HAVE CHRIST…………thus i HAVE ALL.
    amen. and THAT JOY can no man take from me
    even in death………………only present with the LORD.
    So i pray none here attack anything i wrote.
    if so………………..i ask
    WHY……………….i am ONLY EXALTING GOD above ALL THINGS.
    amen.

  272. Jonathan,

    I also have read many of C.S. Lewis books. Many are hard to understand because of his educational background.

    I have seen articles that question his salvation experience as he never shares that he repented, his testimony is vague. One day he was riding in a car and he was surprised by joy. Some think he is more humanistic and has Catholic views.

    I don’t know on this situation as I do not know all the facts.

    As for the questions on the occult, mythology, etc.

    When a subject is condemned by Scriptures, Old and New testament, (like the occult), does it become okay if its sanctioned by Hollywood and a Christian author?

    God says its an abomination, (the occult), a man writes a book about it and it becomes a form of entertainment. Does it now become right?

    One more thought here, Do we have to present the gospel in some different presentation so people will come to Christ? Buried in the movie or books is some secret unscriptural view of what Jesus went through on the Cross. If anything its a poor representation of what took place.

    I just wrote a comment though concerning this situation of confronting someone on their view. Brother I don’t what to be mean to anyone even though I personally an adamant on a subject.

    Did you know in America we have Pastors who are Christian magicians. Some were interviewed and said, they only practice white magic, they stay completely away from black magic.

    This is the mindset in this country. Magic whether black or white is occultic. In the book of acts they burned their occult magic black art supplies. In America we make movies glorifying them and call it Christian.

    That is where I am at on all of this occult stuff.

    I tried to ask some honest questions in my other comment though maybe its not worth making a big issue over and its something God has shown me that I need to deal with in my life. I hope it came across the right way.

    At the same time I cannot see any of the black arts, concerning witches and the such as being mixed in with some secret gospel message, promoted by disneyland.

    What do you think here on this? The article is on false teachers, but isn’t it false to mix the occult into the Christian life?

    GaryB

  273. Marilyn Crow May 11th 2013

    Serenity.

    Thank you for your kind words. I`m glad that it how I come across. However the truth be known, often I have to take a walk, get out my` sarcasm, this is how it is,` words & let God`s Spirit refine me, soften my heart & see from the other side. All behind the scenes stuff.

    Gary B.

    `So I`m a work in progress,` too Gary. I so appreciate what you said. I find that you come across very approachable & caring especially as the need arises but you also say the `truth in love,` in a compassionate, thoughtful way. Be encouraged.

    I think the more we read of each other the more we discern each heart. Disputes & differences arise but as we discuss the issue & not the person & then have a God focussed time with praise sessions by Randall, we will continue to sense God`s guidance amongst us.

    In His care together. Marilyn.

  274. Marilyn,
    Thanks Marilyn for sharing this. Yes its the issue that needs dealt with not anyone individual. I know some mentioned they wanted to know who the false teachers are and what are the doctrines. But I think we all know who they are already.

    I think sometimes we do not realize the Word of God is a very sharp sword. Cutting the flesh and spirit.

    I don’t want to be found cutting up friends. :)

    On the other hand I believe there is a day coming when we shall go forth as flames of fire carrying the Sword of truth. God is going to pour out His Spirit and many will be coming out from among them.

    I was reading the other day and a brother shared they had an experience where the Spirit of God came into the meeting like a roaring wind for several minutes, the Holy Spirit then left the meeting and he looked and everyone was weeping and crying out to God, repenting of their sins.

    The Holy Spirit then came again in another wave into the meeting, this happened several times. God was Glorified before the people.

    Praise God, When the Lord of Glory shows up, all the things of this world will fall by the wayside.

    GaryB

  275. Jda016 May 11th 2013

    Dear Gary,

    I appreciate your open and honest response.

    Lewis is difficult to understand even for literary graduate students. I also know J.R.R. Tolkien, who was Catholic, heavily influenced him to convert. However, I do know many people who have been blessed and helped by some of the Christian things Lewis has said.

    I am really thinking out loud here rather than taking any particular stance when it involves allegories.

    “The Pilgrim’s Progress” by John Bunyan was considered a companion book to own along with the Bible in earlier times. Which seems to have helped a lot of people. I remember reading it and finding how the allegorical story form really helped me grasp certain truths that I did not fully understand.

    “Hind’s Feet on High Places” by Hannah Hurfurd (I think that is her last name) was a treasured book by David Wilkerson and I have been blessed immensely by it as I have seen parallels to the story and my own life. However, I understand your caution with allegories as even she eventually went to new age mysticism and fell away from the pure truth of the Gospel. I do not know if she ever was restored and repented after that.

    This does, however, bring up an interesting point about allegories and what place they should be allowed to have inside Christendom. I would be curious to see what others have thought about allegories and what they have meant to them.

  276. Jda016 May 11th 2013

    Amen Gary!

    I completely agree about God’s glory. Nothing compares when God shows up and makes Himself manifest and set captives free!

  277. Jda016,

    The distinction I would make with John Bunyans book and Hannah Hurnards, is that they did not use mythical Aesop type characters half human and half animal.

    Nor do I remember witches, magic powers, or any use of the black arts in their writings. In fact Lewis created a whole fantasy world that does not even exist, but through the power of some magic generating it. It started with magic and ends with magic.

    I do not consider Lewis’s book as being an allegory nor does he mention this in his writings. I think the Christian community has turned it into an allegory since the popularity of Lord of the Rings and the chronicles of Narnia. Some see this as an avenue to stir their children away from the Harry Potter Craze.

    If I remember correctly Lewis made a bet with J.R.R. Tolkien on who could create a fantasy world in their writings that used mythology. I don’t remember the reason why they were doing this. They both belonged to the same literary club.

    Sorry to hear about Hannah Hurnard. Now opening a door to mysticism.

    Another good author in the beginning was Frank Peretti who wrote his books on “this present darkness and piercing the darkness”.

    His newest book I read on the internet is heavily into the occult and has vague references to Christianity. Its a total departure from his original work of exposing new age teachings.

    I think there is a definite difference from what Lewis wrote compared to Bunyan and Hurnard.

    GaryB

  278. Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    Blessings.

  279. watchful May 11th 2013

    Roger, it’s so precious to see the work of the cross in another’s life, and it makes me mourn where I still lack. Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints………..I think this must be speaking of the work of the cross, dying to oneself…..because that’s exactly what it is…..PRECIOUS!

    Marilyn, in talking about Jesus being our substitute, it caught my eye and reminded me that He is to be our substitute in life, in the sense that He is more and more substituting Himself in place of ourself, or in other words, less of me and more of Him.

    Gary B, I don’t find you are abrasive at all, or any such thing, and am grateful for the warning. I believe God is big enough that He can and does speak to people through anything that He wants to but not to put ourselves deliberately in the way of things that are not from His Spirit. As a child I read that book the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe, it was a favourite book of my childhood, and later being naïve about such things, I showed a BBC video of it to my children when they were young. In a way maybe such things can be construed as trying to help God along by adding new parables to His Book, maybe that is one way of looking at it……….Hollywood and Disney itself is another concern, they tend to infuse things in their works which are extremely unhealthy. Even children’s cartoons now are FULL of occult and witchcraft and new age, something that alarms me a lot. And on huge larger- than- life TV screens!

    Randall, I bless the Lord very much for your example and fearlessness, and pray He will continue to encourage and strengthen you. At work the other day in the staff kitchen I heard a Hindu gentleman tell someone that the Koran (Islam) is a peaceful book…… correct me if I’m wrong but these religions never used to accept each other….so this is like a new distinct religion EMERGING from the man-made religions (including the man-made versions of Christianity), incorporating or taking over them all, which you have been faithfully warning about….hmmm, this just now reminds me of some things that are written in Daniel…?

  280. watchful May 11th 2013

    —This does, however, bring up an interesting point about allegories and what place they should be allowed to have inside Christendom. I would be curious to see what others have thought about allegories and what they have meant to them—-

    Jda016 – I think you are touching on a very important point here……..”vain imaginings”……..something I have been realizing more clearly lately that the imagination and thoughts of man is fallen, unsanctified, and will always gradually lead further and further away from the plumbline………… it’s called the carnal mind and it needs to be taken captive…..by Christ. Preaching to myself.

    Marilyn, just in case, my little comment there was directed solely at my own situation, when I went back and read it just now I realized it could be construed that I was directing it at you, and I was not at all….the problem and limitations of black and white words on paper! 😉

  281. Sandra G. May 11th 2013

    Hello everyone, may all be blessed. It has been a while since my last post, so I just wanted to let you all know I’m still here. As I was reading through the post it was apparent that someone had mentioned the fact that Randall, and Roger had met on another site, I was also one of those who was removed from this site simply because I didn’t conform to the new teachings. This was after almost 2 years with this site. This teaching of the OSAS or All will be saved doctrine is false, and teaches another Jesus, I warn all, do not fall into this trap. Just as Paul said, if someone comes preaching another gospel other than the one of Jesus, flee from it, and don’t look back, in other words, if it doesn’t confirm what scripture says don’t believe it. What happend on that site is truly sad, and I pray the Lord will open his eyes to the truth. The word of God says what it means, and means what it says, no more, no less, anything else is of man, and is vanity. Read HIS word, let HIS spirit guide you into HIS truth, for only in HIM will you find peace.

    God bless all,
    In HIS light, and love,
    Sandra G.

  282. Randall, I bless the Lord very much for your example and fearlessness, and pray He will continue to encourage and strengthen you. At work the other day in the staff kitchen I heard a Hindu gentleman tell someone that the Koran (Islam) is a peaceful book…… correct me if I’m wrong but these religions never used to accept each other….so this is like a new distinct religion EMERGING from the man-made religions (including the man-made versions of Christianity), incorporating or taking over them all, which you have been faithfully warning about….hmmm, this just now reminds me of some things that are written in Daniel…?

    IN A WORD WATCHFUL THIS IS EXACTLY SPOT
    on………….THIS is satans last stand.
    through out the times
    satan has authored all false religions
    to lead many astray
    but in these last days is getting the world focused on
    the truths in all religions RATHER THAN TRUTH ITSELF,
    to bring all into peace and unity.
    YES WATCHFUL, YES THIS IS THE RELIGION GROWING MASSIVE NOW, and i mean MASSIVE
    new age is infecting entire groups in mass.
    Understand when this false religoin hits the full of its iniquity
    when this dark spirit has united all under the strong delusion
    of its false peace and unity………..
    THEN IT BECOMES LAW OF THE LAND through the dark king.
    at that time anyone NOT OF CHRIST
    will be counted SCOURGE of the earth
    they will NOT be called christain.
    they will be hated by many churches and mankind.
    they will be called haters of love, haters of peace and unity
    and will be hunted when once enough fear and delusion
    has infected the hearts of men.
    YES watchful…………………..PRAISE GOD
    for flesh did not reveal that to you.
    THE HOLY SPIRIT DID. and ITS TRUTH.
    i have been watching since 2006 how this religion has been
    slowly building, but as of late
    its went VIRAL. and so has iniquity.
    soon the dark kings and KING stand to bring all
    the world to amergeddon.
    ONLY IN CHRIST , OUR FAITH in Him
    can we resist the devil………..
    STAND UPON THE ROCK…………………TEST all you hear
    for new age has many different tentacles, yet all these different ways are uniting the whole into ONE AGENDA
    WORLD PEACE AND UNITY. and remember
    the anti christ destroys many THROUGH PEACE.
    soon , soon the strong delusoin be sent, even now
    delusion and apostacy are running wild.
    WHEN once this is made,enforced, out of fear
    and for peace and unity……………ON THAT
    day WE be counted TERROISTS……….mark those words.
    roundups will begin, education centers, call them whatthey will
    it will be only to kill lambs. as with the jew in hitlers day
    so too shall we be in the last days……….only
    notice this aint in germany
    ITS WORLDWIDE…………..and rfid is too.

  283. new approaches in so many different ways
    and seems the norm, why…………BECAUSE ITS OF THE FLESH
    and the FLESH can relate to its sensuality.
    GET YE EDUCATED IN THE BIBLE NOW.
    for many bring both truths and new age versions
    and are uniting the two as one.
    and most of them dont even KNOW they of new age.
    they think its some NEW MOVE of the HOLY SPIRIT.
    this spirit is uniting all not of the lamb, into one mind
    one spiritual language, one common goal.
    it focuses on the need of not having to reach out to the lost
    that god automatically reaches them.
    so its doing all to stop evangelism. but its a soft approach
    mixing lies with truth.
    SOON when iniquity has reached the full
    and the DARK one stands and his kings
    THEN IT BECOMES a HARD approach
    as in………….DO THIS OR DIE.
    oh…………….those days cant come one may say
    NOT ONLY WILL THEY…………………they are a lot sooner
    than many realize. THIS WORLD IS RIPE for the arrival of the dark one who will destroy many through peace.
    his false peace and unity of the world as ONE MIND.
    be on gaurd, test all. and know all are loved.

  284. GARY…………………YOU BLAST THAT TRUMPET of warning.
    the reason so many of us often are accused of overwarning
    is cause of the massive LACK OF IT.
    how often i would love to simply have JOY of lambs
    but how often i see the dire NEED to warn.
    man can sit and do and teach in mans way.
    meaning at some churches. no matter what the evils
    brother johhny can have a song at six oclock.
    and sister sue can have her song sang at nine.
    BUT me…………..i dont operate as men.
    THE HOLY SPIRIT either bids me encourage, or warn.
    when i see falsehoods…………..i cant just do my appointed time led singing ………….I WARN cause i am unctioned against such things, when i am led to encourage i do that as well.
    ITS SPIRIT LED……………..
    be blessed. and know all are loved.

  285. YES andew, sandra, roger and i
    witnessed a very sad and tragic day………
    we lambs were so saddened at the atrocity
    it was hard to really focus for a few days.
    its so sad to watch one fall for new age sensuality teaching and then come devour the group with it.
    THIS hurt very deeply.
    And now more than EVER i will warn OUT AGAINST any type of wordly sensual new age led move, no matter how small it is.
    and this is why i warn massively.
    NEVER MIX WORDLY, mystical things
    with GODLY TRUTH
    the spirit behind such things it is coming for the children and the world and does so……….in movies.
    look at todays flicks………………..and notice what is happening
    they are mixing TRUTH in………..to make all things seeem OKAY.
    even witchcrafts and fantasy worlds. to make it seem
    as these THINGS are OKAY. they bring part truths in them.
    BUT SO DID SATAN AT THE TREE.
    OH…………….did GOD say that………..
    no , no you will become as gods knowing good and evil.
    GUESS what
    satan was only half right.
    FOR EVEN GOD SAID……….they have become as gods
    knowing good and evil.
    NOW YA KNOW HOW VERY DECEPTIVE SATAN IS
    but …………….OUR FAITH resists him.
    get ye far from anything that DONT FOCUS ON CHRIST
    i have heard others, talking about allegories
    in all sorts of movies…………YET these MOVIES DONT HONOR
    KING JESUS, they honor man and his kingdom.
    GARY IS RIGHT.

  286. the thing is i would warn pete about things that were not of GOD
    time and time again.
    and he never did listen.
    its as though once this spirit enters the man
    its almost impossible to get that drive out of that man.
    NOW i did NOT SAY IT WAS impossible.
    but i notice its blends JESUS in with the worldy things.
    very tiny, very small at first………..but if not purged out
    it only worsens.
    WE had best all pray more and more one for the other.
    it is weired how it starts………..many
    become feaful minded…………..then begin to hear
    things they think are of GOD, yet if tested would SEE they were NOT, but then a FALSE PEACE ensues.
    FALSE. because i know a man who once read the bible and believed the gosple, became fearful
    then said he FOUND PEACE
    and it set him free in his mind ………..
    ONLY PROBLEM IS
    HE IS OF THE HUMANISM all roads lead religon.
    i talked with him atthe library……….
    oh this man does appear to have much peace
    but he lacks massive truth.
    everything i said about JESUS bieng only way
    he would agree with me.
    BUT THEN went on to say THAT was my road to truth.
    that muslims find theirs, hindus theires etc
    SO maybe he dont have fear anymore.
    maybe he does have peace
    BUT ONE THING I KNOW, he dont HAVE TRUTH.
    and HE USED TO BELIEVE.
    so andrew…………………BEGIN ANEW.

  287. conscious has to do with meats and drinks which are not sin
    andrew, witchcraft, wordliness, IS SIN.
    so understand i do love you.
    but i already notice your use of conscious is getting darkended and
    you have a peace in being able to stay in such things.
    when this is dangerous.
    you should know enough about me andrew to at least know
    i aint condeming or attacking
    just trying to bring a more perfect understanding on the subject.

  288. HERES a lil telling…………..
    a man came into the store…………….wearing his sunday best
    and a big cross on his neck.
    He approaches a plain man, no cross, no outward appearacne of being a christain.
    He tells the young man, son, why is it you dont have
    wear a cross, to show the world your a christain , so they will see
    your a christain and you love the LORD.
    to which the young man replied.
    IF one cannot SEE i am a christain by HOW I LIVE
    then i AM NOT A CHRISTAIN.
    NOW GO THOU and DO LIKEWISE
    for many in this age wear all sorts of outward decs
    YET HAVE NOT THE LOVE OF CHRIST IN THEM.

  289. When a lady goes hungry…………..and one does not give
    yet says…………….go be thou blessed of the LORD
    pray unto theLORD, he will provide……..
    yet gives not…………….THIS MAN is NOT OF GOD.
    When a man sees one in need
    and has the goods, yet says…………….
    when i get a lil better off, THEN i shall come back and give more
    ……….I TELL YOU ALL this man HAS NOT THE LOVE OF GOD.
    For comand two was LOVE THY NEIGHBOR as THYSELF
    not first theyself, then thy neighbor, after self has its greeds.
    When at the end, the goats and sheeps are seperated
    and all stand before the king.
    What will he say………………
    HE will say to both groups………..WHAT YOU DID unto the LEAST
    you DID UNTO ME…………………
    Did we let a sister or brother in christ remain in a sin………….
    DID we tell a gay man or woman………..ITS OKAY GOD IS LOVE, HIS GRACE Is sufficent……….
    DID WE LIE TO THEM. OR DID WE SPEAK AND LIVE TRUTH.
    one is death the other is life.
    TODAY is the day to examine OUR HEARTS
    then GO and DO THIS DAILEY.
    for the flesh never ceaes from its evils……….
    and must be CRUCIFIED DAILY. JESUS WORDS
    not one time………BUT DAILY……………….
    i pray for us all. and I NEED ALL YALLS PRAYERS as well
    and a good supply of the spirit. I KNOW I NEED GOD at All times.
    very aware of that DIRE NEED of a SAVIOR at all times. amen.

  290. NOW i have encouaging words…….
    if any has fallen short on any of this things……..
    dont reamin in them……………..cease to do evil
    and learn to do good.
    GROW in CHRIST. KEEPING up on daily reading the word
    will keep one refreshed in truth.
    SO today is the day, let us move forward in the LORD
    let us grow in the unity of the FAITH.
    and i love you all, i encourage you all, and i pray for us all.
    THAT we be found faithful stewards of the Grace freely given us in CHRIST. RISE UP LAMBS………….
    today we move forward and put all else behind us…………
    LOOKING unto the author and finisher of our faith
    THE KING OF KINGS and LORD of LORDS, CHRIST JESUS
    risen savoir, and the prize of the EYES………….
    TO THE LORD be the glory……………HIS MERCIES are daily
    HIS GRACE is sufficient…………..JOY in HIS SALVATION.
    and PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME.
    amen.

  291. randall,

    Regarding what you say about the false peace that comes with the false christ , yes this is a very real problem.

    Our Lord has used me to lead people out of the new age christian spiritual mix deception , and one of the strongholds is the very real spiritual encounters they receive along with the false peace that confirms to them that they are hearing from God , and not in error.

    This is why it is written that by their fruit we will know them, being true from false , for the one thing I have always noticed with the ones walking in deception with the false peace is the fruit/reactions they show when questioned .

    They will always reject truth as being condemnation .

    They will reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit as being condemnation.

    They will become defensive , often saying they wont let anyone rob them of “their ” vision .

    Their words are always ‘ I ” centered not Christ centered, in that they are going to be exalted, vindicated, raised up , put over others etc.

    Where as truth never needs defending or validation, and never seeks to be recognized or vindicated.

    Truth only seeks to follow in the ways of Lord Jesus Christ, to exalt only Him and His Kingdom, for His glory.

    True servants who have overcome enough of their flesh to walk in the true gifts of the spirit, never show the self serving fruit mentioned above.

  292. Following are some words from Paul, a true servant ;

    1Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

    1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.

    1Co 4:11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless,
    1Co 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
    1Co 4:13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

    1Co 4:14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
    1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

  293. randall,

    I agree with what you say, in that the time is coming when the combined forces of deception united under a false peace , will despise the true servants and want them put to death thinking they are doing God a favor, just as in the days of old.

    There is nothing new in all this . History confirms , as does the present ;

    That as it is written , so it shall be !

  294. Andrew May 11th 2013

    Randall – it is great that you post and discuss things here, my friend. But 9 posts in a row is a little much, don’t you think?

    Please take this into account.

    Sorry.

    Andrew Strom

  295. Roger (NZ) May 11th 2013

    GaryB – I would just like to encourage you to keep speaking out as you already have – I saw no harshness, no condemnation, just the love of Christ Jesus in action, the care and concern for another, both here and elsewhere.

    Kevin spoke more on this, about 4 posts back, conviction v. condemnation.

    Be blessed my friend in your walk with Lord Jesus.

  296. I have a question – Who are Kings and Priests?

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Please show me where “IN SCRIPTURE” that these “saints” WHICH THEY ARE, are called “Priests and Kings” Dear folks you cannot, because it is NOT there.

    .Rev 5:10 And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] “over” the earth!

    This is the Church/the body of Christ, that is removed before the time of the tribulation (Raptured)

    But the revival will be MIGHTY (Rev 7:9) in the time of the tribulation, when the Church has been removed, before hand.

    Rev 7: 9 After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

    Rev 7:13 Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come?

    Rev 7:14 I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Blessings.

  297. Jda016 May 11th 2013

    Dear Gary,

    I agree, there is a huge difference between Lewis’ work and the allegories that have been presented by others.

    I believe both Lewis and Tolkien had degrees in mythology, or something along those lines.

    Lewis was a huge fan of Edmund Spenser who was an English Renaissance author in the 1500’s. While Spenser was a Christian, his work heavily intertwined Greek mythology with Christian aspects. There were certain Christian lessons to be learned from Spenser work, but with so much Greek mythos it was hard to discern allusions to Christ.

    I believe Lewis’ “Chronicles of Narnia” we’re largely influenced by Spenser.

    I remember reading Perretti’s two earlier books and loved them as they made the unseen seem so much more real, but I agree, a lot of his work now has taken a downhill turn.

  298. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Watchful. I know your precious heart.

    Ken.

    I agree with you concerning the `great multitude,` being after the Body of Christ is taken to glory. Just shows our Father`s heart that amid His judgments which must come on a rebellious world (as Randall shows) that if people cry out to God then they can be saved from Satan`s dominion. Sadly many do not repent of their deeds. (Rev. 9: 21)

    Some people think that why should we not go through the tribulation. But Christians have always gone through trials & tribulations for our refining. However Christ does not pour out God`s judgments on His Body. Actually we are the ones judging the world systems with Christ. (1 Cor. 6:2) King Priests ruling & reigning with Christ.

    As you write, it is important to read what God says correctly for too long people have been tricked into thinking the Bible is all about us instead of God`s purposes for the 3 groups –

    `The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations.`

    Mix those together & you get a cloudy soup or the `mud hole,` Kathi was talking about earlier when she wanted the `pure truth.`
    Good discussion.

    Marilyn.

  299. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Gary & Jdo.

    You said, `I would be curious to see what others have thought about allegories & what they have meant to them`.

    I have been following both your comments & have learnt much. Like others I have read these works & sensed the authors were trying to bring over truth but as you have pointed out there is much error. Skilled writers but their imaginations overroad the truth.

    Now the dictionary says an allegory is –

    `a speech or discourse which conveys a meaning different from the literal one.`

    My concern is how we, believers allegorize alot of the Bible. That means we are taking what God says literally & putting our meaning from our imagination on it.

    Often we take an Old Testament prophecy given to Israel & insert the Body of Christ there, then making all sorts of false assumptions. Here is an example.

    Joel Ch. 2. The Truth is that it concerns God`s dealing with Israel who will be humbled by the northern army. (2: 20) Ezekiel shows this army to be `Rosh,` Russia who with others, will try to wipe out Israel. (Ez. 38 & 39)

    Now Dominionists say that because it is `His army,` (2:11) therefore it has to be about the Body of Christ. (& when do we fight `flesh & blood?) & that we will become `super,` & not be consumed in the battle. (I kid you not)

    The Dominionists have taken the literal meaning God was saying to Israel & allegorised it to mean `us,` the Body of Christ & their imaginations have become, `earthly, sensual, demonic,` & `every evil thing.` (James 3: 14 – 16)

    And that is why they have `Generals,` etc & prophecy about taking over the earth. Utterly false & demonic. But it stems back to allegorizing the Bible, with a fair dose of selfish ambition thrown in to fuel it.

    Many of you may well remember the song, `Blow a trumpet in Zion.` We used to sing it thinking it was us. And sadly many people`s theology comes from the songs which aren`t all true but are `sensual,` & of man`s imagination.

    Good discussion. Marilyn.

  300. Jda016
    I believe Lewis’ “Chronicles of Narnia” we’re largely influenced by Spenser. Quote……………..

    I have not heard of this man before and did not know this was Lewis’s inspiration concerning the “Chronicles of Narnia”.

    To be honest I do not know how it got started in Christian circles that these books had a hidden message involving Christianity, and Jesus death on the cross.

    I only remember the Christian book stores being flooded with advertisements comparing the books with the Bible.

    If you look at the scriptures the OT condemns any involvement with the occult. How they came up with this comparison is very strange.

    The Bible calls it an abomination but were being told these books have a message about the Bible.

    Manasseh was involved heavily in the occult:

    2 Chronicles 33:6
    Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger.

    In revelations it tells us that Babylon in the last days will use sorcery to deceive the Nations.

    Revelation 18:23
    The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

    Have you noticed this huge interest in the Black arts that is taking place all around us?

    The thing I see about the occult is that it is tied directly into the demonic realm. Now we see it being brought into Christian circles and being accepted as harmless entertainment. Its a mixture of darkness made to look like the light.

    The devil told Eve you will surely not die, and what is he telling the church today about all of this black magic. Its just an allegory about the Bible, its very harmless.

    I think I have the mind of the Lord on this. The occult and black arts has an attachment to the kingdom of darkness. In the Old Testament as well as today it is still an Abomination to the Lord.

    Why are so many being led astray because satan is allowed to have a seat in the church.

    GaryB

  301. Andrew May 12th 2013

    CS Lewis was NOT into the “occult” and would be utterly shocked at the suggestion.

    Read his Christian works and find out. (“Mere Christianity” etc).

    Yes – in his children’s stories he had fairies and minotaurs running around. In those days nobody thought anything of it.

    You can have concerns. Agreed. But to go overboard and accuse people of the “occult” is ridiculous.

    PLEASE DO NOT BRING OVERBOARD ACCUSATIONS ON HERE.

    Thanks so much

    Andrew Strom

  302. Matthew 3:1-3

    “In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’”

  303. when men use allegories, and witches and other sources.
    CHILDREN grow up believing these things to be okay
    because of the hidden allorgies in them.
    THE early church would never have mixed any type of mysticism
    to entertain the youth or any for that matter.
    when odd mystical beings and creatures etc
    are allowed to do good things, children and others
    become complacent as to what is reallly good and
    may delve into anything that has good works.
    An example is i have heard of a caldron of witches
    who do good works, and are trying to get
    the world into peace and unity through white magic.
    SEE THE PROBLEM.
    Where did that MOVIE even mention JESUS as KING.
    we cant mix………………………it aint safe and it sure aint right.
    but……………….i suppose if one wants to make quite a bit
    of money……….well THAT SELLS MASSIVE, so
    get money and then kid ourselves that its all good and
    allegories are in it.
    IT AINT RIGHT. its all wrong. Gary…. sound the alarm.
    Kevin wonderful words………….absolute truth.
    OFten when truth is bought……….its condemend as
    being either judgmental, or the one who wont recieve
    it says it brings a loss of freedom, or joy,
    or one into bondage. BUT i have FOUND THE LOVE OF GODS EVERY WORD, rightly divided, warnings and all, encouragments and all………….gives me PEACE.
    TO LOVE OUR LORD, is to love his every word.
    FOR whosoever shall be ashamed of HIM and HIS WORDS
    yes……….he said words, HE shall deny them before the Father.
    IF CHRISTS warnings bring fear……………….
    then CHECK YOUR OWN actions………..
    but never omit any part of HIS WORDS to have a false peace.
    or one is already headed FAST in the wrong direction.
    I saw so MUCH truth in kevins writings and it JOYED my heart
    how he said he has been used to bring some out.
    My prayer is all these books and etc………….will be set aside
    and a simple preaching of GODS WORD only be given
    THIS will set them free. amen

  304. Roger (NZ) May 12th 2013

    Andrew S. – my friend, a quick search on internet will show a number of sites that discuss the occultic nature of some of Lewis books.

    Even though the Narnia series may have been recommended reading for Sunday school children, it would seem (it is alleged) they are also recommended reading on sites that support witchcraft – on the one side Aslan is compared to Lord Jesus – on the other he is seen as satan. It appears the story can be read to support either belief.

    There are two sides to this, and no doubt the truth is somewhere inbetween.

    Because of this doubt – and the fact that they are so popular – would it not be wise to treat these books as an imaginative story, at best, but not as a Christian resource.

  305. Jda016 May 12th 2013

    Oh I never thought Lewis was into the occult. I’m a literary student so I am required to read “the classics” which involves all sorts of Greek mythology.

    Lewis has written a TON of things besides his fiction and Christian work that deals with the literary world. A lot of his insights into Renaissance authors and Classical authors was to show a type of “foreshadowing” of Christ even in ancient works. He was not trying to Christianize any pagan mythos, but he was pointing out how even their stories groaned and cried out for the real messiah.

    He was trying to show how even some classical literature was foreshadowing Christ’s coming even if the authors never heard of Christ or of God.

    This is why I believe he wrote the “Chronicles of Narnia” to create a more direct link to Christianity, in fantasy fiction, through Aslan representing Jesus and the White witch representing satan.

    His mentioning of magic or witches and giants never bothered me, however I am curious to see the other views of Christians regarding the mentioning of these things.

    The bible clearly condemns witchcraft and sorcery and yet I do not see the mention of a witch or mythological creatures as BEING demonic in the sense of his writings.

    However the table top game of “dungeons and dragons” clearly used actual witchcraft in its presentation of sorcery and monsters.

    So on one hand I do not see the mention of a white witch being purely evil in the case of Lewis where I do see it as evil in the use of things like “dungeons and dragons.” If that makes any sense?

  306. I love you all, and cant help but to want to send out encouragments, warnings when needed, good encouragments to praise the LORD. it just JOYS my heart.
    also i read where one said they dont read LONG posts
    so i send MORE but shorter ones.
    My heart is for you all. Often when one is hearing things
    that are disturbing them , they respond .
    SO I SAY………………to all WARN and keep warning.
    it may be through warnings and prayers
    that any in error will repent. warn gary, kevin, roger, and others.
    and may all be blessed.

  307. So on one hand I do not see the mention of a white witch being purely evil in the case of Lewis
    jda………….
    and that is THE PROBLEM
    i dont care HOW GOOD one is……….
    IF THEY ARE A WITCH…………….they is a witch
    they dont follow CHRIST
    they pratice magic……………..
    i aint atacking…………but Yes i must warn you.
    white, black pink, yellow, whatever
    a witch is a witch. and these movies
    make kids of america agree with what you said
    white witches not bein evil etc….
    when in fact IT IS……………satan is very, very clever.
    and we must not be ignorant to his devices.

  308. this is of new age………………
    see, i warned us new age is all over
    and many cant even recognize it……
    but BIBLE EDUCATION ONLY and
    FOLLOWING JESUS ONLY
    will open eyes and give us the TRUE SEASONED MEN
    we need. till then ONLY a mixture which is death.
    As i have so often warned………..PUT DOWN ALL OTHER READS
    many write for money……….lets be real, this is why they do it.
    and media, and hollywood, and many others
    are already infected with versions of new age.
    THE WORLD is now ripe for arrival of the man of sin.
    many will see him as a man of peace
    and sadly this is only death. THIS spirit is already
    softning everything…….and making many wax worse and worse.
    KEVIN is right . BUT i will fight against iT till the last breath by
    warning against any type of it, even in smallest of things.
    till the last breath. amen.

  309. Just got back from our local congregation (after having lunch with my parents – it’s Mother’s Day here in New Zealand) and would like to say thank you to everyone who prayed for me – we had a really good time and there was freedom for the preaching of the word, I love you all, Andrew

  310. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013

    AMEN Randall.

    Witchcraft is witchcraft, period. There is no such thing as “Godly witchcraft”.

    There are only 2 kingdoms in creation. The kingdom of darkness or the Kingdom of God.

    You either belong to one or the other.
    You CAN BE INFLUENCED BY BOTH KINGDOMS AT THE SAME TIME, unless you are possessed and controlled by the Holy Spirit at all times….Gal 5

    Gal 5:19 KJV
    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    Gal 5:20 KJV
    Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    Gal 5:21 KJV
    Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    There is nothing “new” about the witchcraft of today….it is the same witchcraft found in EVERY AGE of this GLOBE.

  311. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013

    If it is possible to ENTERTAIN ANGELS UNAWARES, then it is possible to ENTERTAIN FALLEN ANGELS, too.

    FALLEN ANGELS are demons and evil spirits; spiritual wickedness in high places; principalities; powers; rulers of darkness.

    Eph 6:12 KJV
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

    We must allow the Holy Spirit to RULE OVER OUR THOUGHTS, DECISIONS, IMAGINATIONS.
    That is how we have the MIND OF CHRIST.

    2Cr 10:5 KJV
    Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and BRINGING INTO CAPTIVITY EVERY THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ;

  312. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013

    Our flesh must be brought INTO SUBMISSION to the AUTHORITY AND RULE OF JESUS CHRIST THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT…..24/7.

    Any INDULGING of the flesh is the OPPOSITE of Absolute Surrender to FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF JESUS CHRIST.

    Why suffer the slightest LOSS of His Presence and Glory to INDULGE our flesh with the PLEASURES OF THIS WORLD?

    There is MORE SATISFYING PLEASURE found in the FULLNESS OF HIS GLORY.

    The FULLNESS OF HIS GLORY does not have to be a “hit and miss” occasional experience……it is meant to be experienced 24/7.
    Walk in it regularly and you will have no need for “entertainment” and the pleasures of this world.

  313. Jda016 May 12th 2013

    Dear Randall,

    I am not saying the white witch is good. She represents satan and all witchcraft is evil.

    My point was that I do not get a strong sense that Lewis’ chronicles of Narnia are are wicked and evil. I do not believe they glorify satan as the white witch is defeated by the lion (Jesus).

    I remember reading the chronicles when I was a kid and it helped me feel closer to God. It did not entice me to seek witchcraft or the occult.

    It was always made clear to me that the characters simply alluded to something else.

    It is difficult to convey proper meaning on a forum, but I do not condone witchcraft or the occult whatsoever.

  314. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013

    By the way….there is no such fruit of the Holy Spirit called “self control”.

    The fruit are the NATURE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT/GOD, NOT from our nature/spirit/ or soul.

    Absolutely NOTHING of the GODLY NATURE comes from our SELF!.

    If you MUST use the word CONTROL…..instead of Temperance or Abstaining from; Then use the words SPIRIT CONTROLLED.

  315. Andrew May 12th 2013

    CS Lewis was an ardent and staunch defender of the Christian faith.

    He also wrote fairy tales and allegories which some don’t like.

    NONE OF THIS MEANS HE WAS INTO THE “OCCULT”

    HE CLEARLY WAS DEAD AGAINST IT.

    Too many “conspiracies”

    Too much “suspicion”

    OVERBOARD & UNBALANCED ALL THE WAY.

    Please take it somewhere else.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  316. never said he was occult.
    but let us ponder……………can a man be decieved
    and not know he is decieved.
    HAPPENS all the time. since we know the intents of no mans heart………
    LET US LOOK at the fruit.
    How often has it been said that one does something for the glory of
    God , only to find out………………..it was for their own personal glory .
    TEST all. IT dont suprise me a bit, that new christains
    or the unlearned might defend these men.
    WHAT should shock us all…………….Is if one is seasoned
    or been with the LORD and ought be a teacher
    by now……………..why any would defend anything
    NOT WHOLLY of GOD.
    that is something to ponder.
    What worries me, is how i have heard from others
    OH, i have been with the LORD since a lil child.
    THAT is a blessing. But when tested
    they all , yes, all that i have tested, have fallen very short
    of WHOLESOME words of CHRIST.
    yet by grace, i have been but a mere nigh seven years.
    IF a lil lamb like i can see…………….WHY is it that they cannot see.
    PRIDE………………………..it kills, and it kills dead.
    Be blessed my friends. TEST ALL………………and i mean
    TEST all. this site nor any other is out of the way, nor hidden
    from evil seducing spirits……..which often come in
    from a famliar face, or a stranger………..and if beleived
    will kill. PRIDE…………………
    PRIDE . I pray now for all things not of GOD, to be burned out
    from us all. me, and all others. no matter what it takes
    purge the dross. amen.

  317. What i said above was an attack on none.
    ONLY a warning.
    I have percieved something is not right at all.
    and am worried for the sake of the others.
    We must understand that the gift of discerning of spirits
    IT IS VERY REAL and a GIFT of GOD.
    Roger, i am worried. Not for me, for those who could be harmed. see, we at the end, and seducing spirits aint slowing down, they SPEEDING UP. my advice…….PRAY Like never before. pray for us all, and any who may be infected already.
    i love you all. I have warned enough today.
    i really wanted to encourage. BUT more than ever am led
    to warn. TEST ALL, and i say it to all, TEST ALL you hear. amen.

  318. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Gary, Jdo & others.

    I`m so glad this topic of allegorizing came up as it is the main culprit for all our differences in interpreting God`s word. This is where we should be looking. When many people read the Old Testament instead of reading what God is saying to Israel, they immediately think what is this meaning about the Body of Christ. They allegorize God`s statements & then embellish with vain imaginings. This brings great error.

    Here are 3 examples. (& there are plenty of others.)

    1. The Valley of Dry Bones. (Ez. 37)

    Here God is telling Israel although they have been scattered amongst the nations of the world & appear, `dead,` that He would gather them into their own land once again. There they would `grow flesh,` become established as a nation & then God would `breathe life,` into them so that they would recognise Him as their Messiah.

    Many people allegorize God`s picture word here to Israel as meaning for the Body of Christ. The truth is the Body of Christ has never been `dead,` but is being brought to maturity in Christ.

    2. The Tabernacle of David. (Amos 9:11)

    God is telling Israel that after the Day of the Lord (Amos 5: 18 & 8:9 day of darkness – tribulation) that He will raise up the house of David to rule over Israel & the nations.

    However a whole movement of pagentry has been established based on allegorizing what God said to Israel, & taking it for themselves.

    3. The Mountain of the Lord. (Micah 4: 1 & 2)

    Here God is telling Israel that in the Latter days (the Millenium) that Jerusalem will be established as the mountain of the Lord where the Nations will come & learn of God & His ways. This was God`s purpose for Israel & they will yet carry it out in the earth.

    Again many people in the Body of Christ allegorize this literal meaning of God to Israel & changed its meaning to suit their own imaginings. This teaching has led many people to believe that the Body of Christ`s inheritance is to rule the earth which is against all that God clearly says to the Body of Christ, who rule & reign with Him in Heaven.

    God tells us (the Body of Christ) that the Old Testament is for our example, of behaviour & not for us to change what He means & allegorize in our imaginations. If God doesn`t mean what he says then it is `open season,` on anything & everything.

    Its time for all of us mature believers to take personal stock of HOW WE treat God`s word. All about ME or about CHRIST & His 3 Purposes-
    `The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations.`

    Allegorizing the Old Testament is a great hidden snare.Yes the enemy without is obvious to us but the enemy within is like a cancer eating away at our understanding of God`s Great Truths.

    So Beware. How do you read the Old Testament?
    Marilyn.

  319. Andrew May 12th 2013

    Since the Old Testament is clearly spoken of as the “Shadow” of the New – and ‘Passover’ and all other Feasts are clearly Foreshadows or “allegories” of the NT reality – then it is perfectly fine to use the OT – such as the ‘Valley of Dry Bones’ and apply it spiritually to the church.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    Marilyn – you are deeply deceived if you cannot see this.

    Blessings!

    Andrew Strom

  320. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Andrew Strom.

    Thank you for your reply. I have checked with the use of the word `shadow`& it applies as you said to the Feasts, (Col. 2: 16 & 17)
    I also found it to refer to the Priests (Heb. 8: 4 & 5) & the Law, (Heb. 10:1)
    I believe those scriptures as you do. However you have said, `Since the Old Testament is clearly spoken of as the `Shadow,`We seem to have gone from Feasts, Priest & the Law to the whole of the Old Testament in one sweep.

    Where are your scriptures for that assumption?

    Marilyn.

  321. People who want to believe that Jesus will not return to earth to reign for the thousand years are deeply deceived…

    People who want to believe that the saints – the godly ones – do not return to earth with Jesus to reign for the thousand years are also deeply deceived…

    It is the devil who does not want Jesus to return to earth to reign for the thousand years cos he knows that if He doesn’t get He can’t cast him into the lake of fire and brimstone right at the end of the thousand year reign…

    It is the devil who would deceive the Church of the Living God into believing that they will not be with Jesus during the thousand year reign on earth…

  322. Correction: if He doesn’t then He can’t…

  323. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Andrew Strom

    You said, `it is perfectly fine to use the OT – such as the Valley of the Dry Bones – & apply it spiritually to the Church.`

    Ez. 37: 11, 12, 22, 24, 26 – 28.

    God said to Ezekiel, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel,…My people I will bring you into the land of Israel.`
    `I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel & My servant David will be King over them, & I will make a covenant of peace with them,….& the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel when My sanctuary is in their midst.`

    This we see partly has happened to Israel & will yet be accomplished by the Lord. Why do you want to take what God says to our brother (Israel) for yourself? In no way does it apply to Christ the Head maturing His Body.

    Do you also take Is. 54: 6 Israel as the wife of Jehovah & then divorced (Jer. 3: 8) to be a shadow of Christ dealing with us?

    Sounds very muddly to me & disrespectful of who is talking to whom – God talking to Israel not us.

    Hope you can clarify your position. Marilyn.

  324. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    How nice of you to drop by. Could we have some scriptures please for what you are saying?

    Marilyn.

  325. If someone posts on a blogsite in a way which purposefully contracts – or challenges the authority of – the owner of the blogsite then I do not believe that person is in submission to the owner of the blogsite…

  326. Correction: purposefully contradicts…

  327. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Andrew Strom & Andrew J. Horton.

    I think the description of me as `deeply deceived,` is rather strong. `In error,` would be a more correct term as we are discussing different understandings of interpretation.

    However we are not in disagreement regarding the Lordship of Christ. That would merit `deeply deceived,` if something different was presented.

    So let us `press on toward the goal for the heavenly prize to which God in Christ is calling us. So let those of us who are spiritually mature & full grown have this mind & hold these convictions; & if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.` (Phil. 3: 14 & 15 AMP)

    Together in Christ. Marilyn.

  328. If someone is presented with the truth from scripture but purposely refuses to accept that truth and in fact – by their attitude – implies that the one bringing that truth is the one in error – then there is no point further “debating” with that person as it is just a “chasing after the wind” – there is another spirit controlling them…

    God has given us a job to do – tell the truth to the world (make disciples of all nations) – if we tell the truth to someone and they will not receive it we are to “move on” to those who will…

    That is my intention…

    Endless discussions over clearly divided, i.e. very clear, topics in the word of God are a snare of the devil to distract us from our commission…

    It’s like discussing with an atheist about the existence of God and trying to convince them – the fool says in his heart there is no God…

    A woman is not to exercise authority over a man – that is out of the Order of God…

    Until the Holy Spirit’s revelation hits them there’s no light getting in… :-)

  329. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    I wrote about allegorizing the Old Testament because I thought that it was in line with the topic we were discussing. You have been away so probably hadn`t been able to follow it all. I did not realise that I was speaking against what Andrew Strom believes. However to discuss such topics does not make some one not accountable nor unsubmissive.

    If Andrew Strom asks me not to discuss that topic that is his perogative & obviously if I desire to comment here I would need to heed that.

    I find it very interesting that these particular topics make you very agitated. I`m not here to cause conflict but to discuss with those who desire discussion without strife..

    Yours in Christ. Marilyn.

  330. Andrew May 12th 2013

    Marilyn – there are types and shadows all through the Old Testament.

    The Red Sea passage, the 7 dips of the Leper in the Jordan, etc, etc, etc. The New Covenant is the fulness. The Old was a “shadow” of this.

    But you are right – I do not wish to turn these threads into discussion of such matters.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  331. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. (2 Thessalonians 3:14 NASB)

    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 NASB)

    We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    (2 Thessalonians 1:3-12 NASB)

    Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
    (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 NASB)

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB)

    Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
    (1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 NASB)

    But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while—in person, not in spirit—were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—and yet Satan hindered us. For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy.
    (1 Thessalonians 2:17-20 NASB)

    We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
    1 Thessalonians 1:2-10 NASB)

    From all these scriptures it is clear that Jesus is coming back from heaven with His saints (the dead in Christ) and picking up the ones who are still alive (those who remain at His coming) at His coming…

    Jesus left from the Mount of Olives and in like manner He will return to the Mount of Olives with all His holy ones – all the saints from all ages…

    Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
    (Zechariah 14:1-5 NASB)

    Praise the LORD!
    Sing to the LORD a new song,
    And His praise in the congregation of the godly ones.
    Let Israel be glad in his Maker;
    Let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King.
    Let them praise His name with dancing;
    Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre.
    For the LORD takes pleasure in His people;
    He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation.
    Let the godly ones exult in glory;
    Let them sing for joy on their beds.
    Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
    And a two-edged sword in their hand,
    To execute vengeance on the nations
    And punishment on the peoples,
    To bind their kings with chains
    And their nobles with fetters of iron,
    To execute on them the judgment written;
    This is an honor for all His godly ones.
    Praise the LORD!
    (Psalm 149 NASB)

    And they sang a new song, saying:
    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth.”

    (Revelation 5:9-10 NASB)

    emphasis added throughout… :-)

  332. Andrew Strom,
    NONE OF THIS MEANS HE WAS INTO THE “OCCULT”
    HE CLEARLY WAS DEAD AGAINST IT. Quote…………

    I totally agree with this statement, and I was not trying to imply that this man was personally promoting the occult. I hope everyone did not perceive this as an attack on C.S. Lewis, saying he was some type of occultist, “intentionally” promoting it. I stress the word “intentionally”.

    I think if you check many of these books were written years before he became a follower of Christ.

    Dear Saints of God:

    This is going to be hard to explain and to make it understandable. May God give us all His understanding. Bear with me here.

    When Luther received the revelation that a man was saved by Faith, he found he no longer had to try to work his way into heaven. He was saved by faith.

    In his day and time this was outstanding revelation as the Roman Catholic church held people in bondage for centuries. This is the light that Luther received.

    But at the same time he did hold on to certain catholic doctrines, example: infant baptism, etc. The Anabaptists later searched the word and they preached this was not in the Bible and was promoted by the RCC. They disagreed with Luther and ended up being persecuted for promoting this belief.

    Luther I believe was saved, he just did not have full understanding on these other subjects, obviously. He held to some doctrines that he had been taught over the years. They were not heretical but he did not have full understanding on some subjects.

    Sorry this is the best example I could think of.

    By the same token, C.S. Lewis was heavily educated and this carried into his salvation experience. His written books would follow him the rest of his life, he could never change that.

    On the other hand this man did not have the Baptism of the Spirit. Once you receive the Baptism of the Spirit you do have a greater understanding of spiritual things.

    This does not make one man more superior then another its just that you have a greater understanding of the spiritual realm and the Word of God.

    Even today we understand things that those in the denomination do not understand, but I believe many in these churches are still God’s sheep.

    The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all truth. With the Baptism you know from experience that the scriptures become alive and real.

    Back to this thought on Lewis. I don’t think he was in anyway trying to push the occult on people.

    We that have the Baptism now can look at the Bible and see that it was condemned in the Old Testament and it is mentioned in the Book of Acts. In these last days we know that there is a flood of material on the black arts, cult type thinking and new age in this world.

    Churches are practicing yoga, reiki, reading their horoscopes, using magic, reaching out to cults, etc. etc.

    My whole point is when we have understanding from the Lord about what His Word says that we should be aware of what is taking place. And that is, the occult is still an Abomination to the Lord and Christians should be aware of this tool of the devil and be aware that it is going on in the world and in many churches in this end time. We that are wanting to go deeper in the Lord should realize what pleases Him.

    There it is, I don’t know if I made this understandable or dug myself in deeper. :)

    The short version is, the occult is bad but I don’t think Lewis was trying to “intentionally” promote it.

    Please don’t misconstrue this.

    GaryB

    One more thing, I don’t think that allegories are wrong as the Bible does have allegories.

    I am not going to try and even debate this, or discuss it. I agree here with Brother Andrew and others on this.

  333. Marilyn Crow May 12th 2013

    Gary B.

    I totally agree that the Bible does have allegories, good point. However God always, always always, explains & shows us that that it is such. My point was we often take the liberty of allegorizing such that should not be.Hope that explains my point to others.

    Marilyn.

  334. Jda016 Wrote:
    It is difficult to convey proper meaning on a forum, but I do not condone witchcraft or the occult whatsoever.Quote…….

    Jda
    Brother you sure got that right. :)

    Trying to get the right thought across without following a hundred different ideas is hard. Everyone grabs part of a comment and heads down a different street.

    Whats that old Chinese proverb:

    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    We on the internet can now say:

    A thousand words, paints a different picture. :)

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  335. Dear Saints of God,

    “For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king.”
    (1 Samuel 15:23 NASB)

    What we should be concerned about in terms of witchcraft or divination is that its root is in rebellion, i.e. a lack of submission to God and to Godly Authority…

    Saul (the King) did not submit to Samuel (the Prophet) who spoke on behalf of God (the Highest Authority)…

    This is what got him into the trouble and what eventually led him into literal witchcraft – consulting the dead through a medium…

    It all begins in the heart…

    Insubordination for Saul was not obeying the Voice of the Lord through Samuel the Prophet…

    We have the Prophetic Word made more sure – we have the holy scriptures and if anyone will not submit themselves to the holy scriptures then they are in rebellion towards God and we should not be surprised if they are used by the spirit of witchcraft…

    Mark anyone who refuses to believe and accept and teach the plain meaning of God’s word…

    Hell (the lake of fire and brimstone) is real and is the eternal, conscious place of torment for all who do not submit themselves to the salvation – the means of salvation by faith in the “It is Finished” work of Jesus on the cross – which God has provided…

    The Eternal Destiny of the Saints is with Jesus in the New Jerusalem after reigning on this earth with Jesus for a thousand years as Jesus will literally reign from the Throne of His Father David from literal Jerusalem…

    Mark any who do not teach this and do not associate with them…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  336. Correction: His father David…

  337. Jda016 May 12th 2013

    Dear Gary,

    I believe I understand what you are humbly trying to say.

    You feel a huge wave of the occult invading the church through mysticism, new age, and white magic. I agree with you. Doctrines of men being “little gods” as well as teachings of “portals to heaven,” gold dust, and everything in between is all centered in wickedness.

    I know that for me, “The Chronicles of Narnia” actually made Me desire to seek God in a greater way. However, I completely understand your warning that any mentioning of witches or pagan creatures could potentially open the door to greater deceptions that we are already seeing inside the Church.

    I also know that Christian teachers and professors have used the works of Spenser, Lewis, and even Milton to point towards Jesus and the cross where overtly talking about God is banned from public schools and universities. I know one professor who has a testimony of many students coming to Christ because she emphasized the Cross in many of these works despite their inclusion of Greek mythology.

    In Literary graduate school, Greek mythology is the least of things to be worried about in comparison to many of the modern, post-modern, and structuralist theories out there. In fact the only way to even reach some students for Christ is to focus on Renaissance works and plays that have references to Christ in them.

    I completely see your heart in this though Gary and I know you are seeking to warn against witchcraft, in all its forms, in order to protects God’s people.

    The Lord bless and keep you Gary!

    Jonathan

    P.S. Very good point Andrew J about rebellion being as the sin of witchcraft and how it infiltrates the church through disobedience!

  338. Marilyn,

    I just want to say this one thing and then no more as it will change the main thread.

    Somethings in the Bible are spiritually discerned. I believe the Spirit of God can give an individual a deeper meaning to what God is telling us in scripture.

    We have to be careful that we do not let our background (the way we were taught the Bible), interfere with our understanding when someone is bringing something forth something by the Spirit of God.

    Some people do pull things out of the Bible and see things that are not there. This is where we have to be led by the Spirit and listen to His still small voice.

    The problem is we want to hold on to things we were taught as the final word and not take the time to listen to the Lord. Remember the Bereans they went back and searched the scriptures to see if what was being said by Paul was true.

    I have had to do this as well with things I have been taught. I don’t agree with everything people say at times but I am willing to let the Lord show me if I am wrong. The important thing is to be sensitive to the still small voice of the Spirit of God, as He will lead and guide us into all truth. I believe this.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  339. Jda016,
    Very good point. My wife had a class in sociology where they were not allowed to talk about religion. But the professor was always talking about Hinduism while teaching the class.

    My wife used this as an opportunity to preach the cross of Jesus Christ, since the professor was bringing up the subject of Hinduism.

    When the professor said to her, Well that is on the subject of religion, she would reply, Is not Hinduism a religion as well.

    Many of the students opened up to the Word of God as they seen the contradiction of the professor.

    I know what you mean as using something as a tool, and turning it to point to the Cross.

    The new age thinking is trying to take people away from the Cross and the work Jesus did at Calvary. They down play Christianity every opportunity they get.

    I understand exactly what you are saying.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  340. watchful May 12th 2013

    Amen to those who are warning against witchcraft in any form…..Roger said it very well that some stories should not be considered as a Christian resource. They could even be well-meaning and not from someone actively involved in the occult at all, but still proceed from the FLESH, which as we know is the tramping ground for the devil’s influence and activity.

    Jda016, it’s been a long time, but if memory serves Aslan himself had a magic of his own…..that had never been tested…? That seems to be what I remember if I’m not mistaken, so White witch had bad magic, but Aslan had good magic….? and the children in the story were given magic “tools”, one a potion to heal, another a magic weapon, etc….my memory is hazy but it is something like that…? Mythological creatures are also troubling even when portrayed as “good”, since there are no such animals in GOD’s creation….

    Unfortunately that is just how the kingdom of God and His power is all-too often perceived and treated, like magic that men wield at their own will and as they see fit, (But Lord, Lord did we not………?) and not in submission to the Father. In such cases they are acting like little gods, when actually we are only to be vessels of the Holy Spirit. Wrong Tree altogether, like the story.

    Carry our cross, crucify the flesh, and we find that our interest in things of the world begins to die away….cultural, intellectual, material, etc. This is a crucial revelation that most of the churches has lost. For most of us it can take quite a long time, and much patience and trust is needed to endure, though I see that for some there is more grace given because of their gifts/calling and the need in the Body….praise God.

  341. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013
  342. Lightning Storm May 12th 2013
  343. Well done Marilyn Crow – the churches are full of REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY concerning Israel. A well written response!! The church is not Israel, Israel is not the church and God’s purposes are different for both. This whole misuse of Biblical truth, is leading the ‘church’ down the road to increasing deception and ultimate apostasy.

    Also Amen to Roger NZ – if we follow Christ and not ‘men’ and always check in the Word for ourselves, we will survive the increasing apostasy. Whereever we go, what we read, what we hear, see and view, relating to Christianity today, we must check with Scripture and the Holy Spirit -test all things. We are told to do this, for this very end time reason.

  344. Dear Saints of God,

    Mark all those who applaud those who do not accept the clear truths set out by Jesus – through Paul – in the epistles to the Thessalonians and through all the other holy men of God in holy scripture – Jesus wrote scripture – all scripture – as He is the Logos of God…

    There is only one Church – the Church of the Living God – and it includes all who are of the faith of Abraham the believer from all ages…

    And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40 NASB)

    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24 NASB)

    Let no one deceive you through “high sounding” arguments of anything else…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  345. Marilyn, I 100% agree with you that Eze 37 (Dry bones,etc) is 100% to Israel and has NOTHING to do with the Church. Eze 37 is NOT a “shadow” or a “type” of the Church. Yes, there are types/shadows in the OT to the Church but this is NOT one of them. Eze 37 is a DIRECT prophecy to Israel and i agree that it is ONLY partly fullfilled, to date, and will be fully fullfilled at the end of the tribulation (Zec 12:10) just to mention one of the many promises/prophecies to Israel. And i agree, seperation of Church and Israel is so so vital and also the 3rd group, the Nations.

    Written in haste :)

    Blessings.

  346. watchful ,
    what I have quoted from you below is the real issue with all the allegories that portray the fight between good and evil ,,,,,,

    “Unfortunately that is just how the kingdom of God and His power is all-too often perceived and treated, like magic that men wield at their own will and as they see fit, (But Lord, Lord did we not………?) and not in submission to the Father. In such cases they are acting like little gods, when actually we are only to be vessels of the Holy Spirit. Wrong Tree altogether, like the story. ”

    ++++

    ,,,,,,,and in that regard the principles portrayed are still ultimately about glorifying the creation , rather than glorifying the Creator , and this is the error that is part of all other new age and spiritual understandings , in that they don’t truly recognize a Ruling sovereign all powerful Creator , who works through us , His creation , for His glory.

  347. Andrew JH ,

    Yes the words of Paul in Thess 1 & 2 certainly clarify and confirm events around the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    It is easy to become confused around interpreting the scriptures regarding the return of our Lord Jesus Christ , when the words of Paul are not taken into consideration.

  348. Amen brother Kevin… :-)

  349. as concerning the COMING of the LORD and the milienail reign.
    ANDREW is correct.
    Be blessed all saints.

  350. You do understand andrew
    the COMING of our LORD is a ONE TIME EVENT.
    its the DAY for those of the LIGHT
    and its a snare unto those who walked in darkness.
    a study of second thess chapter one
    MAKES THAT VERY CLEAR.

  351. I understand that it is a one time event brother Randall, yes… :-)

    Jesus returns to the air and “picks up” those who are still alive in Christ and then proceeds with the entire household of faith down to the earth where His feet touch the Mount of Olives – that is why Jesus Himself says, “when the Son of Man comes will He find faith on the earth” – no He won’t cause He would have just removed it to meet Him in the air – but we all come down with Him and we all reign with Him and we all execute judgement on the earth with Him…

    We are not appointed to wrath because we will be dealing out the wrath with Him because we can never be separated from Him again…

    Praise You Jesus… :-)

  352. Correction: no He won’t cos

  353. Randel, the 2nd coming of the Lord “two earth” can be seen in Rev 19 and Zec 14:4.

    Let us look at scripture and how He is coming –

    This is His 2nd coming to earth –

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of “the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God”

    It is in “the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God”

    NOW let us look at other scripture –

    Acts
    1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    It says, He (Jesus) is coming in LIKE MANNER as ye have seen Hiim go.

    That implys to me that He is coming at an other time, other than the “the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God”

    Randel, i put it to you, that He (Jesus) is coming for us the Church, to pre trib rapture us, that He may Finish His Work with Israel (Rom 11:25)

    Blessings

  354. The last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15) is the last trumpet, there are not two last trumpets… :-)

  355. You know in your heart that what I am sharing is the truth don’t you brother Randall… :-)

  356. It’s all in the timing though – of when this one time event will take place – some here seem to believe that it will take place very, very soon – so soon in fact that there is no point to believe that God will complete a final ingathering before His return – they seem to not take seriously the word of the Lord regarding not forsaking the gathering of themselves together and seem also not to take seriously the command of the Lord Jesus to go into all the world and make disciples of all the nations and they also don’t seem to believe that the Gates of Hades will not overcome the Church of the Living God right up until the time when He does “snatch us away” – when we meet Him in the air – just before we all return to earth to reign with Him…

    There is another – very much smaller – group here who actually believe that there will be a final world wide harvest for the Glory of God before this occurs…

    I place myself fairly and squarely in that second group… :-)

    I am passionate about this and I am living for it…

    And I experience God here – in my passion to see the world saved with the Gospel…

    Paul’s passion was to present every man complete in Christ – my passion is no different…

    This is what I’m living for…

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  357. we shall escape the WRATH of GOD,
    Not the tribulation or great triblation of anti christ upon the
    church.
    all we NEED do IS SPREAD the GOSPLE
    and so so passionetly………..
    as for the numbers………………
    well that is up to GOD.
    A falling away is occuring RIGHT NOW
    and the spirit of anti christ is having many who are in it
    believe in an end time enlightenment, which
    will gather the world in peace and unity.
    stay far from that group.
    its blending all religoins together as one.
    sayin GOD is GOD of all religions and all roads lead.
    andrew……………they even believe
    GOD is COMING as a man to unite the world into peace
    and unity………………BUT my friend this aint gonna be god
    its gonna be SON OF PERDITION.
    and his mark is coming upon the world as we speak.
    The new age is now teaching that the rfid tattoo
    is the transendence of the collective conscious of men
    becoming GOD. ask SANDRA
    i found it TODAY, their own words.
    STRONG delusion is coming and many now think
    its okay to tattoo the temple of GOD,
    LIES and false sensual propagana.
    SO long as you understand to take no rfid, no anything
    upon the temple. I aint worried for you.
    Be blessed andrew.

  358. DO let me know how you feel about that rfid andrew
    CAUSE for ME……….THIS IS GODS TEMPLE
    i bought and paid for by CHRIST
    and no worldy mark of any sort will be placed upon this temple.
    oh, i also found on ABC NEWS………….they are
    promoting it……………..ps………….they said imagine
    a child uncounscious etc………….with in in him.
    no need to look up etc or ask questions cause all info is there.
    OH, but heres the other part they said
    and imagine all can be paid for by YOU, with a swipe of the hand. andrew……………..I Kid you NOT this was on ABC news.

  359. Jda016 May 13th 2013

    Have you ever happened to hear a secular love that was ambiguous that didn’t really mention a guy or girl and you suddenly started singing along and praising God, because you saw the “other person” in that song as Christ?

    Well that is how I somewhat feel about things like Lewis’ work and books that may contain things that are not 100% Christian, but that contain Christian elements.

    You see, as a teacher (or soon to be one) I have to point to ideas of redemption, love, sacrifice, and forgiveness inside works of Shakespeare, Milton, Spenser, Lewis, etc. I wish that I could teach directly from the Bible in English Lit classes, and sometimes I can, but many times I have to make due with what I have.

    I wish to reach my students for Christ with prayer and pointing them to images of Christ, love, forgiveness etc. inside the works available to me. For instance, Shakespeare is full of perverse humor, mythological creatures, murder, and revenge. However, many plays also have a focus of redemption, Christ figures, love, and other Godly things. I have to focus on what is of God in order to reach my students and not focus on what is evil because I am not allowed to directly teach them the Gospel.

    I believe God uses things even like Shakespeare and “The Chronicles of Narnia” to reach people who otherwise would never even know about Him if works that contained only evil were ever taught.

    It is a difficult position to be in. But I hope people can understand that Christian English teachers and professors in the secular world need to be able to draw parallels to Christ from works that are not entirely Christian.

    God bless!

    Jonathan

  360. Andrew JH,

    There is another group that includes me, who see the following scriptures as the time in the lead up to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    We see the falling away and the rise of the beast , simply as the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and believe that our Lord is preparing us to be able to continue to harvest , even under the open reign of the antichrist.

    Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”
    Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
    Rev 13:6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

    +++

    Andrew note the following verse:

    Rev 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

    Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
    Rev 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

    +++

    and this one ;

    Rev 13:10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    So those in the group I’m in , do not see the final world wide harvest as you put it, playing out in the way that you see.
    We see this final gathering up being at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    What we see is that the enemy will bring a counterfeit revival , that is already beginning now with the likes of TB etc

    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
    2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
    2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    What we see is simply the fulfillment of prophecy before our very eyes.

    We believe the prophecies of man do not over ride the prophecies of the bible, no matter how worthy they may sound.

    We believe as it is written , so it shall be .

    So Andrew , it is going to be interesting in the time ahead to see what actually plays out.

    Andrew It is good that we have agreed to disagree on our differing views of this subject, and that there is no contention between us in this matter.

    I just wanted to speak for the other group out there from the two you spoke of above.

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

    Kevin

  361. Andrew JH,

    When you say ” Gates of Hades will not overcome the Church of the Living God right up until the time when He does “snatch us away”

    This true,,, in that the gates of Hades , as in death no longer has victory of those who know Lord Jesus Christ .

    In other words even in physical death, the enemy has no victory over those in Christ Jesus, for our Lord has conquered death.

    So I believe to quote this in terms of the true church walking in visible victory on earth during the reign of the beast is in error.

    We have victory even in death , and we wont be seen by the world to be walking in victory until our Lords return .

    In His love

    Kevin

  362. Andrew…………………………..
    andrew………………..
    Kevin……………………andrew knows not to tamper with rfid in the body………………….RIGHT………….
    sensuality is saying its okay, it can be helpful, it can even round up the bad guys if need be.
    Watch OUT for men and the reasonings of men.
    The churches are already teaching that this rfid wont be the mark
    that it wont be given till AFTER the church is raptured.
    see, many in the churches long sold out the truth.
    and have been given over to the delusions.
    Kevin, you and roger know not to take any wordly mark peroid.
    See, this mark is very deceptive………………tis how
    the WORLD markets it, and has already began marketing it.
    be on GAURD.
    KEVIN……………………..andrew does know NOT to take anything
    in or on Gods temple …………….
    Right………………………?

  363. To all who believe the mark tis only spiritual……….
    take heed to the one who has understanding
    and the number of the beast……….
    For it is the number of……………………
    get ready for it………………………
    r u ready………………..
    A MAN. its PHYSCIAL, a man its a PHYSCIAL MARK.
    it aint like GODS spiritual mark
    THIS one is of a MAN, and man is physical.
    this one might be the way to tell who is going into delusion
    and who is not already.

  364. LETHE WHO HAS understanding count the number of the beast
    for it is the number of a MAN…………………………
    GOD IS SPIRIT and those who worship him must do so in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. GODS mark is spiritual
    MAN is PHYSICAL…………………..
    Barry…………………………you do understand THAT…………….

  365. TO any and all who believe we get raptured before the MARK of the beast…………..
    JUST KNOW dont MARK this temple………….
    you will soon see churches teaching this aint the mark
    that the mark gets inserted into IT LATER.
    BELIEVE THEM NOT……………
    They will soon begin pushing this new age agenda.

  366. why do they believe it gets inserted later…………….
    because they are being given over to delusion.
    WATCH for tv preachers to start saying this.
    DONT BELIEVE IT THOUGH.
    We are not to mark GODS TEMPLE peroid.
    this topic will be to see who is already falling under sensual delusion and reasonings of men.
    WHO for fear of either not fitting in, or maybe losing promotions, or jobs, or etc……………….will tell themselves.
    BELIEVE THEM NOT. any mark is NOT OF God.
    NOT on the temple , and this is all new age,
    ever wonder WHY so many are also now beginning to fall
    under the guise of revealtions as being a past tense event.
    and the world is selling the idea
    that any who LOOK at revealtions as future events
    are in the potential terroist category.
    THIS IS ONE OF THE WHYS
    cause they PLAN TO MARK THE LOTT of the WORLD.
    be on gaurd.
    test all……………………………test all.

  367. Hi Kevin,

    When I say that the Gates of Hades will not overcome the Church of Jesus Christ I mean exactly that…

    No double speak here…

    It means that we don’t hide, we don’t cower in fear, we don’t go and find a cave somewhere but we continue right out in the open declaring that Jesus Christ is Lord and we realize that the true freedom is to die for Christ rather than being subjected to any fear…

    Now, which of the two groups that I mentioned do you believe that you are in?

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  368. I have no idea what rfid is Randall but I won’t be taking any marks on my body except the ones which come from torture, persecution or execution…

    You must remember though that scripture says that the influence of the man of lawlessness will be limited – there are twelve nations which eventually side with him and he only gets control over a quarter of the earth (there is a scripture for this) in the three and a half years after he breaks the peace treaty…

    There is no temple yet in Jerusalem – there needs to be one…

    The Gospel needs to be preached in all the world as a testimony to all the world and Jesus’ words in John 17 need to be fulfilled along with the greater works He prophesied and the pouring out of His Spirit on all flesh…

    I am not living in paranoid fear…

    I am free to die for Christ…

    I am also free to live for Christ without fear no matter what pans out for me personally…

    He has promised me that He will always be with me and never forsake me and that even in death His Peace will surround me…

    Let’s get on with the Good Works which He left us here to perform, Amen brother?

    Love you,

    Andrew

  369. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnuycZzUl7c&feature=player_detailpage

    I started to watch this …………
    BUT LOOK at the news about the four christains
    THEY WERE given the helping orphans
    and muslims extremists caught them
    and charged them for defecting from the muslim faith.
    THE MUSLIMS gave THEM THE CHOICE to recant CHRIST and live………….OR DIE
    and THESE FOUR CHOSE DEATH BY BEHEADING
    THEY LOVED NOT THEIR LIVES unto death.
    THEY HAVE AN ETERNAL WEIGHT OF GLORY IN HEAVEN
    THEY have REST
    we are left behind in this strange land
    they are at HOME IN CHRIST.
    THIS IS TRUE CHRISTANITY.

  370. ALL WHO LIVE GODLY SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTIONS

  371. JUST SEEING and hearing of the FAITH of THOSE FOUR
    has ENCOUARGED ME GREATLY.
    THE GOSPLE MUST BE LIVED AND SPREAD……………amen

  372. TO LIVE IS CHRIST……………to DIE IS GAIN……………..
    PRAISE THE LORD……………………PRAISE THE LORD.
    Those four gave up their life with NO FEAR, nor recanting
    CHRIST……………..and THAT IS LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANTELY.
    NO fear of death……………………no fear of loss of anything
    BUT a willingness to do GOOD unto all
    to preach the gosple in the most of dangerous places,
    and to do all as unto GOD.
    Those four are wonderful examples of CHRIST in them
    following the truth and not loving their lives.

  373. Hi Jonathan,

    I will pray that the Lord will release you into His wisdom regarding your question above… :-)

    Have a thought about what Paul did on Mars Hill – I think that will set your heart at ease… :-)

    for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ (Acts 17:28 NASB)

    Finding a “starting point” which they can relate to…

    Finding “redemptive analogies” in all of life is part of unlocking that “thing” in man which just has a “sense” of his Creator through the culture which he has been born into – God has left Himself these “redemptive analogies”,

    that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (Acts 17:27 NASB)

    because,

    He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes 3:11 NIV)

    He has also set eternity in the human heart – so somehow they just “know”…

    You are in the Lord’s will where you are – He will protect you and give you the wisdom you need…

    Just submit to the Holy Spirit and he will start living out of you and showing you how to package things so that it focuses your students back on Christ…

    Which your life will do anyway…

    Pray for His Presence over you so that they start asking you questions…

    People sense Love, Joy and Peace around people…

    They will ask you for a reason for the hope you have if they sense these fruits of the Spirit around you…

    Let the Presence of God around you do the speaking and then just speak when they ask questions…

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  374. Andrew JH,

    You have completely missed what I said, and as I said in an earlier post I am in neither of the groups you mention.

    To date the greatest victory that this earth has seen for the Kingdom of God was the death and resurrection of Lord Jesus Christ .

    What did this look like ?

    Did it look like a great victory to this world ?

    Where the apostles lifted up and exalted in a way that this world accepted ?

    Where through out history have any of the true servants of Lord Jesus Christ being lifted up and exalted in this life here on earth ?

    As I said earlier the biblical reference to the gates of hades is that death has lost its sting and has no hold over us who are in Christ Jesus, and this will not be seen until the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, when the dead in Christ are raised up to rule and reign with Him.

    No double speak here or cowering in fear .

    I just don’t see that any actual physical conquering and subduing the nations is mentioned in the written word in any other context than the return of Lord Jesus Christ.

    In the mean time we continue to serve as those before us have .

    Andrew , going off your response above , I don’t believe that you have ever really understood the group I’m in.

    If you believe that prior to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ , that there are going to be some group of super overcomer’s that are going to subdue the nations, then your argument is not only with me , it is with all the dead saints in Christ who have gone before us under the outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh ( the sending of the Holy Spirit ) , who’s life on this earth testifies differently.

    I thought we had agreed to disagree on this subject ?

    Have you now decided to try and subdue me and force me to choose from one of your two groups ?

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

    Kevin

  375. I find it quite simple Kevin – Paul’s life shows us each how we are to live on this earth…

    He overcame, he laid down his life…

    I want to be like him, don’t you?

    He wanted to be like Jesus, so do I, don’t you?

    He wanted to present every man complete in Christ, so do I, don’t you?

    Paul said,

    First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4 NASB)

    This is my desire…

    This is what I am living for…

    Jesus Himself said,

    “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. ( John 15:8 NASB)

    This scripture I believe to be speaking of souls saved for the Kingdom…

    Right until the end, “this is the day of Salvation” and we can expect to see people saved…

    If we are here on earth we are here for the purpose of making disciples of all the nations and the Lord will add to our number daily those who are being saved…

    Even in those last three and half years…

    That’s what you’re doing isn’t it (from what I understand)?

    That’s my “group 2″…

    My “group 1″ is the group who buried their talent in the ground and thought the Lord was a hard man so they “shut up shop” tried not to be deceived, spent all their time checking out everyone says trying to find fault with it and just held on for grim death hoping not to be infected by all the evil going on around them…

    I don’t see you in “group 1″ Kevin, I see you in “group 2″ but if you see yourself in “group 3″ (as you define it) then that’s fine with me… :-)

    Love you,

    Andrew

  376. Correction: checking out what everyone says…

  377. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Thankyou for those men & women with spiritual backbone to stand for the truth, – Am, Ken1, Serenity & Watchful & others. It did my heart good to know others see the truth also & willingly voice it.

    A couple of comments –

    The Temple.

    (AJH mentioned it has yet to be built)

    `Jesus said, `When you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place….` (Matt. 24: 15)

    `..he (Anti-Christ) takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.` (2 Thess. 2: 4)

    The Greek word used is `Naos,` meaning `meeting place, dwelling, or Synagogue. This is the Synogogue that is situated on King George street. It was dedicated in 1982 in the presence of the Prime Minister, Menachem begin, Members of Cabinet & many other notables.

    The central feature is a high tower containing five magnificent stained-glass windows, topped by two tablets of stone, bearing the ten commandments. The temple (naos) Paul referred to is already built.

    Why people get muddled is because they think the `temple,` where the Anti-Christ sets up his image has to be where Solomon`s Temple was. However the word for the Temples on that site, Mount Moriah, is the Greek word, `Hieron.` Ezekiel predicts that another Temple will be built on that spot but that will be after Christ returns to set up the Davidic kingdom.

    The Last Trumpet.

    (AJH says, `The Last Trumpet (1 Cor. 15) is the last trumpet there are not 2 last trumpets.`)

    Many people have thought that 1 Cor. 15: 52 & Rev. 11: 15 are the same. Let`s see what God says.

    1 Cor. 15; 51 & 52.
    `..we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;….` (PTL)

    Who is talking to whom. (Basic 101 Bible College & common sense) God through Paul is talking to the Body of Christ about our wonderful inheritance of putting on an imperishable & immortal body. (Awesome)

    Symbols interpreted by God in His word.
    Trumpet – God`s voice. (Rev. 4:1)
    Last – final, in place or time. (Gk. word `eschatos.`)

    Thus we have `the last trumpet,` (1 Cor. 15) meaning the last time that God speaks (prophetically) to the Body of Christ on earth. (place & in time)

    Then in Rev. 11:15 we see `the last trumpet,` (7th angel sounded) is God speaking to the nations in His wrath for the last time.

    `Fall on us & hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, & from the wrath of the Lamb.` (Rev. 6: 16)

    Praise our wonderful Saviour & Lord, who have saved us from that wrath, by His precious, priceless blood.

    Marilyn.

  378. Jda016 May 13th 2013

    Thank you Andrew for those Scriptures regarding my post! =)

    They help a lot! I love you too!

    God keep you!

    Jonathan

  379. No worries brother Jonathan, you’re a good man, The Presence of the Lord will be upon you, Love you, Stay strong in Him, He loves you with a strong and jealous Love which will never let you go, Be blessed, You are a blessing to His Heart, Love you brother and He sees your worship towards Him and it blesses His Heart, The Joy of the Lord is your strength, Love you brother, Let the Holy Spirit be all through you and all around you as you offer yourself up to Him, Let Him have Pre-eminence in your life and He will lead you into all righteousness and all truth, He will keep you and protect you and offer up your heart to Jesus, The Truth shall set you free – The Truth – Jesus Himself – will set you free, Love you brother, Praise You Jesus for Your Joy – I feel His Joy all over you Jonathan – You will walk in His Joy – Abounding and full of Glory, Praise Hi s Wonderful Name, Hallelujah, You are Worthy Jesus, We Love You Father, Praise You Holy Spirit, Thank You Lord… :-)

  380. Correction: Praise His Wonderful Name…

  381. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Gary B.

    Just an interesting observation on you post further back. You said

    `We have to be careful that we do not let our background (the way we were taught the Bible) interfere with our understanding when someone is bringing something forth, something by the Spirit of God.`

    So true, Gary. I think of Pricilla & Aquila helping Apollos. (Acts. 18: 24 – 28) Although he was `mighty in the scriptures,` he didn`t have the full understanding of Christ. Thus Pricilla & Aquila `took him aside & explained to him the way of God more accurately.`

    You are right we all need that attitude to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying through His servants & confirmed by His word.

    You then drew my attention to the `Bereans.`

    `Remember the Bereans they went back & searched the scriptures to see if what was being said by Paul was true.`

    Very diligent people. And God rewarded them with the truth of Christ.

    My point is, do you see in one quote you have people just listening to a servant of God, but in the other quote they are searching the scriptures. You may not have relised how it came across, but I believe (& I think you would too) that we need to listen to others & check the scriptures of what they say.

    What I find troublesome for some people here is that they are not checking the scriptures that have been changed in some versions, even though it was pointed out to them. Why is that? Do they want to continue in a lie? Or are they stuck on their interpretation. I am always open for clear Bible discussion using Biblical interpretation that every Bible college uses.

    * Who is speaking to whom.
    * What time period.
    * In context. etc, etc.

    Marilyn.

  382. Do you play acoustic guitar Jonathan? :-)

  383. Jda016 May 13th 2013

    Thank you Andrew. =) I witness to what you said as I have felt God’s joy and peace even in a very difficult time in my life! Thank you for the encouragement!

    Unfortunately I have never really learned to play any instrument. I never
    had the knack for it.

  384. No worries Jonathan, I was just seeing an acoustic guitar as I was praying for you before, not sure why – just thought I’d thrown it out there, Love you brother… :-)

  385. You have a heart like David, Jonathan, who played before the Lord, The Lord loves your heart when you worship Him, Be encouraged brother He loves your heart of worship… :-)

  386. Marilyn, you said
    Symbols interpreted by God in His word.
    Trumpet – God`s voice. (Rev. 4:1)
    Last – final, in place or time. (Gk. word `eschatos.`)

    Thus we have `the last trumpet,` (1 Cor. 15) meaning the last time that God speaks (prophetically) to the Body of Christ on earth. (place & in time)

    Then in Rev. 11:15 we see `the last trumpet,` (7th angel sounded) is God speaking to the nations in His wrath for the last time.

    Excellent Marilyn, i totally agree, and then you said in your second post –

    * Who is speaking to whom.
    * What time period.
    * In context. etc, etc.

    This i so so vital to understanding scripture correctly.

    Blessings.

  387. Marilyn
    What you say is true. This happens all the time when sharing with other Christians. Take for instance the Baptism many do not take the time to see all of the passages in Acts and the gospels to see if this is of the Lord.

    I was sharing with one lady this truth, I handed her the Bible to look at the passages. She stared blankly at the Bible for a few seconds and then handed it back and said, You need to talk to my Pastor about this. :)

    Here’s the deal, some subjects are not debateable. There are certain Biblical truths that are not something that can be changed. Its locked in stone. For instance Jesus death on the cross, as only one example among many.

    One thing though I think if someone does have the truth on a subject, that God never uses them to beat another person over the head with the truth.

    Flaunting it before others and belittling someone. Once we share something if its not received then just drop it, its not worth the time of day to keep hammering it.

    Did you ever notice the cults, they will not stop with some doctrines and it becomes a hobby horse. Even people with heretical doctrines, (like Jesus only), that is all they think, breathe, and talk about. Every conversation the subject rises again and is intertwined in what they say.

    Heres my thoughts on some subjects:
    Once you see a person can not comprehend the truth or refuses the truth from that point on its nothing but a waste of time. Even God Himself could not show them.

    Of course the Lord does not force anything on people and He does give everyone time, even with salvation, we may plant a few seeds, someone else later down the rode waters and then eventually their eyes are opened.

    Then on the other hand a person learns of Jesus and they want the full package, anything from God they want because of the joy flooding their hearts.

    Every case is different.

    But I think you are talking about certain doctrines between believers. That’s a whole new Ballgame and its not a matter of planting seeds.

    I am of the belief in this stage of my life that I think if someone was trained in the scriptures a certain way that they will always hold to their doctrines unless they come to the point that they want to see if God has more for them.

    Like I said elsewhere, I am not the final authority on the Bible, this is just things I have come to conclusions on while I have my sojourn on this earth. I love what originated with others, “I’m just a work in progress”, I have to just keep remembering this.

    I think its wisdom from the Lord though if they do not receive let it rest, it only will turn into an argument and manifests bad feelings on both sides.

    GaryB

  388. Andrew JH ,

    Yes the example we have is Paul , and I put it to you that the example of Paul differs significantly from many of the prophecies we have today .

    Paul knew that His rewards were not of this earth or on this earth. He knew that all his rewards and inheritance awaited him when he was free of his earthly body or tent as he put it, and that he would receive his crown when he received his glorified spiritual body.

    Nothing that Paul ever said pointed to human believers in the flesh being exalted or vindicated while serving here on earth , nor to them ruling over nations before the return of Lord Jesus .

    In the bible it is clear that many nations will turn from the truth and this will lead to the establishment of the ten earthly kingdoms that will rule the earth , and who will come under the reign of the beast, in a way the scriptures I quoted to you indicate.

    We are seeing right now the fulfillment of the bible prophecies , in that the true church is harvesting in places like India and Iran as we speak, and yet we have countries in the west that are actively turning away from the truth.

    So we have the falling away taking place at the same time as the harvest is taking place.

    The harvest will continue right up to the return of Lord Jesus Christ , including during the 3 1/2 year reign of the beast.

    I believe that many of the prophecies and teachings we have today , have taken what we will receive upon the return of our Lord Jesus Christ , and said we will walk in this before His return .

    So I don’t think it is as cut and dry as the two groups you speak of , and as I posted previously , we will see going forward just how all this plays out .

    All these things are in the hands of our Lord Jesus Christ .

    In His love

    Kevin

  389. watchful May 13th 2013

    Very blessed by your comments Kevin…………hitting the mark, amen, amen.

    We must remember that even the great and mighty Paul fled persecution and was let out of a window in a basket. How I fear for those who cling to their fairy tale imaginations………………but increasingly more so for those who will be led astray by them…. Seducing spirits, and it is increasing.

    I have been thinking about spiritual abuse, intimidation, control and how these factor in to the development of cults of all kinds, including the Christian kind. Yesterday, I prayed to the Lord to protect His little ones, and the answer came that such things must come but y

  390. watchful May 13th 2013

    ……….WOE TO THOSE THROUGH WHOM THEY COME.

  391. Marilyn, you also mentioned this (good point)
    `Fall on us & hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, & from the wrath of the Lamb.` (Rev. 6: 16)

    Note the previous verse

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    The above verse includes everyone on the face of the earth at that future time, from the kings of the earth right down to the bondmen and free men.

    IF the Church were here at this future time, would they hide themselves from the presence of Him who sits on the throne??? I believe the answer is obvious.

    Blessings

  392. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. (Acts 17:6-7 KJV)

    Father, in the Name of Jesus and for Your Glory I want to be one who turns the whole world upside down in the Power of Your Holy Spirit…

    Without You I can do nothing…

    Fill me with Your Holy Spirit and with Fire that I may do the work which You have left me on earth to complete – the specific good works which You prepared beforehand for me to walk in…

    I love You Father, I love You Jesus, I love You Holy Spirit – I love You Lord (Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit)…

    Glorify Your Name in all the earth…

    Let the Power and Fire of Your Holy Spirit be felt all over this earth…

    Bring many to Jesus…

    Many, many, countless multitudes to Jesus…

    Let His Joy be made full to see them all in Your Presence…

    Worshipping You…

    Fellowshipping with one another in the Family of God, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus…

    Let us know our inheritance in You…

    Let us know our acceptance in You…

    Let us know our identity in You…

    Let us know our authority as ambassadors for – sent on behalf of – Christ…

    Open our eyes to see, lift our vision higher to see, all that You have for us before we meet You in the air – or if we die before that time – before we come back down with You from heaven…

    We love You Lord and we give You all the glory for what You are going to achieve corporately – as Tommy Hicks saw – through us in this generation – the period of time remaining before You come again to this earth to reign…

    We love You Jesus – You are our Role Model – we offer our lives to You today to let Your Name – the Fame of Your Name – be known throughout all the earth…

    We worship You – You are worthy of all our Praise…

    Thank You Lord that You are with us as we are surrendered to You – to do Your will on this earth – Thank You for Your Presence with us – as You promised Moses, “My Presence shall go with you and I will give you rest”…

    We receive this Lord – Your Rest – and we worship You – to You be the Glory in Christ Jesus and to all ages, in the Name of Jesus, Amen…

    Love You Lord… :-)

  393. Lightning Storm May 13th 2013

    GaryB …..your last comment is so correct and inline with scripture.

    Jesus did not sit in the gates and “wrangle” words with the people.
    Even in the synagogues, Jesus stated/preached some say/ the truth that the Father told Him to speak; answered their questions; and did not enter into a “wrangling” of words and opinions.

    Jesus stated the truth; answered questions; and left.
    Jesus even told the disciples to do the same thing.
    Did Jesus come back to speak again to the same group of people? YES according to our records, He did……but after some time had passed….in other words….WHEN THE FATHER told Him to return.
    As you said…..there was time in between visits for the truth to be assimilated; confirmed; and the hearts to be changed by the Holy Spirit in order to believe.

    Jesus waited upon His Father’s personal instructions that He received 24/7 for every word and step that He, Jesus, was to take.

    Yeah….I don’t see that much from those who call themselves followers of Jesus.

  394. Lightning Storm May 13th 2013

    Actually, now that I think about the scriptures, Jesus didn’t even answer their questions the way they wanted them answered.

    He usually answered them in riddles and parables.

    Ha ha ha….try doing that now!

  395. Roger (NZ) May 13th 2013

    Interesting thought L.Storm..

    Jesus spoke in riddles and parables to those He knew would not listen.

    However – to His disciples, He explained the parables – because He knew they were of Him – chosen by Him.

    The truth is not complicated by God – only man does that to promote himself, to increase ‘self importance’, to exert control.

  396. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Ken1 Good point, re: everyone hiding from the Lamb. (Rev. 6:15)

    Gary B.

    Yes I agree we are not to belittle people nor continue to present truth if the other person is not ready or accepting. So true for it does manifest bad feelings & thus breaks the relationship we are trying to build.

    This is one on one with someone & we can do it here as well as face to face. However there is another aspect to `blogging,` that we can`t miss out on. It is if we know the truth & other people are listening & engaging then the topic needs to be opened up.

    Just because some people don`t believe or receive what we are saying we still need to share the truth & obviously those who believe different will share their views to each other & we will listen or `jump over.`

    Being a public forum means different sides of the issue are presented. Saying that there does get to a point even in a public forum when a topic, issue has to move on.

    PS. Gary, is there a specific, `belief,` you think I am forcing? Or am I belittling people? I don`t want to do that, but share on topics. I would appreciate your feedback (or others) if it`s necessary. To be accountable to my peers.

    Appreciate your thoughts. Marilyn.

  397. Andrew JH,

    This thread is about the false Christ , along with the false end time revival that the following verses speak of :

    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
    2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

    +++

    2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

    2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

    +++

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    ++++

    So we are going to have the false revival happening , at the same time as the true harvest is taking place , at the same time as the great falling away is happening, at the same time that the beast will rise in power and reign in the final lead up to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Do I believe that the true baptism of the fire will fall on true servants in these times we live in ?
    Yes absolutely , just as it did with the early church and Paul.

    Do I believe the true servants walking in the fire will dominate the earth ?
    No , they will simply serve as they have always along side all the false that we are going to see rise up.

    Andrew , my concern for you is that many of your words reflect the influence of the teachings that are being used to promote the false that seeks to exalt and vindicate man .

    I would not want you in your desire to serve our Lord, fall under the anointing of the false revival .

    Andrew , on your blog you have specific prophecies with times regarding revival in NZ ,at the following link

    http://ahouseofprayerforthenations.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/prayer-for-revival-in-christs-church/

    All I ask of you is to hold yourself accountable to the prophecies you have bought forth, and be willing to re examine them seeking confirmation from our Lord Jesus Christ , if things don’t play out as you have .

    Andrew , you must understand that the pressure will come on all who are close to being released into a true ministry for our Lord Jesus Christ, and I don’t want to see you end up walking under the false anointing.

    Love you brother

    May our Lord Jesus Christ give you clarity in these matters , and lead you into His true fire .

  398. Father, I lift every word which I have ever spoken to You and ask that You would purge it with Your Fire…

    I give You every word which I believe You have given me and I give it back to You…

    May every word which I have spoken which has not originated from and been spoken by You fall to the ground and be of none effect…

    Exalt Your Own Name…

    Let anything of me fall to the ground and die…

    Love You Jesus…

    Exalt Your Name in all the earth…

    Every word which You have spoken through me – establish it and let it flourish on the earth – in Jesus Mighty Name – and I pray this for all my brothers and sisters in the Lord that every word which You have spoken through them would surely come to pass in Jesus Mighty Name, Amen

  399. Quote
    Hi Neville, and greetings from Merthyr Tydfil!

    I found your blog through searching for a discerning Christian voice that was actually being brave enough to question what is currently happening at the Victory Church in Cwmbran, which they are billing as “The Welsh Outpouring.”

    Read the rest here – http://www.ziontalywain.blogspot.co.uk/

    Blessings.

  400. Amen Andrew

  401. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Very interesting Ken.

  402. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Also Andrew J.H. a good prayer for us all. Thank you.

  403. I have examined in part the group KEVIN speaks of
    they have been found wanton.
    i dont think andrew is part of that group.
    but in all goodness and not to promote a fight but just a clear answer.
    ANDREW, put minds at ease.
    You are not part of JAMES GOLL and his group are you.
    THIS group has been weighed and measured and found wanton.
    speaking of woman playing roles of almost apostolic nature.
    the way you speak about ORDER, i cant SEE you in that GROUP.
    if so, GET OUT.
    in these groups they exalt US, MAN as some super power filled
    warriors. THE PROBLEM is they exalt themselves all the while acting like they aint.
    they are wanton. JESUS never told the desciples to REJOICE in the POWER , but RATHER to REJOICE that their names were above. and JAMES even told followers
    that TODD bently was the man GOD HAD CALLED TO THE STAGE. now, i dont think andrew is in that group.
    BUt its only fair to ask.
    if any desires to ask me what group i am in
    i will glady tell them.
    THE HUMBLE CHRISTAIN GROUP which says O lord
    keep me humble and where i have hidden faults burn them out.
    SIMPLY LET YOUR WILL be done in all things,
    and let you be EXALTED and not me .
    THAT GROUP. the JOY IN THE SALVTION OF GOD GROUP
    and BE CONTENT with what things you alraeady have group.
    the NOT GIVING matierail things NO THOUGHT group
    but rather TRUSTING JESUS who said SEEK YE THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
    And the group that says LORD cleanse me of hiddne faults
    and keep me back from known sin.
    the GROUP that trusts not in anything , ONLY GOD.
    and where i lack in that, MAY HE DO as IS NEEDED
    to get me right. that group. CHRISTAIN.
    amen.

  404. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Oh to be found worthy In Him, to be in that group, Randall,
    Thank you for such clarity.

  405. Marilyn

    This is the truth, I was not thinking of you, while writing that comment.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  406. P.S. I don’t see you belittling people here.

  407. ANDREW, put minds at ease.
    You are not part of JAMES GOLL and his group are you.

    I have never heard of JAMES GOLL Randall, so no, I am not a part of his group, Love you brother, Andrew… :-)

  408. Any other concerns which any of you have of me? Please bring them out and I’m happy for you to bring them out specifically if Andrew is happy with this… Please bring them out, I want to be like the Lord and believe only what He tells me (which will line up with His word), Love you all, Andrew… :-)

  409. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Thanks Gary. I wonder what topic will emerge next.

  410. Marilyn :)

    Blessings

  411. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Good thoughts to hear. Can we be brother & sister here but obviously still mindful of differences in teachings? I do appreciate God`s work in you, especially your prayers. I too am a muscian & would have loved to hear you play & worship leader.

    Sister in Christ. Marilyn.

  412. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Ken. Thank you. How do you make a smiley? Marilyn.

  413. Andrew J Horton

    Quote
    which will line up with His word

    Amen Andrew J

    Blessings.

  414. Marilyn

    Put a coolen first “:” (Spelling)

    And imediately after a “)”

    Blessings.

  415. Please bring them out specifically – that is better than writing “baited” comments which don’t do any good at all – as long as Andrew is OK with this – I’m OK with this Andrew if you are… :-)

  416. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Ken :)

  417. Marilyn Crow May 13th 2013

    Watch our everyone here comes the smilies. I have a new toy!!!!
    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) (7 completion) Thanks Ken.

  418. Dear Marilyn

    You are very welcome :)

    Blessings.

  419. Serenity May 14th 2013

    The paramount things are surely 1, love one another, and 2, be led of the Holy Spirit in all things, while 3, meditating on the whole Holy Bible, 4, in an attitude of humility.
    I doubt we are all going to come to perfect intellectual agreement on the jot and tittle of every doctrine before Jesus returns.
    The harvest field awaits.

    Every fellowship on Earth is a work in progress, as is every believer therein. Praise the Lord that Jesus is coming ! Let us be ready, and praying according to His command in Luke 21 : 34-36. Ie, keeping spiritually alert and praying that we may prevail to ESCAPE ALL these things that are coming upon the Earth, and to stand before the Lord Jesus. Amen !

  420. Amen Serenity

  421. and thanks to Ken I know how to do :)

  422. Marilyn Crow May 14th 2013

    Serentity.

    I don`t know that much about you, but have appreciated your encouragements & posts. Are you from Oz or a Kiwi or ? Do you work at home or elsewhere? Only share if you want as it is public here.

    Luv Maz

  423. chas351 May 14th 2013

    regards TB & Angels… lets see what the Bible says:

    Angels and healing from impurityThere are instances in the Bible where angels have the ability to heal an individual from impurity. For example, in the book of Isaiah, Isaiah ascends into heaven and sees angels praising the Lord. Their voices were so powerful that they make the pivots on the thresholds shake and filled the temple with smoke. (Isaiah 6: 3-4) All of this power made Isaiah feel unworthy and unclean so he cried out, “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:5) Then one of the angels flew to Isaiah and touched his mouth with a live coal that “had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.” Once the angel had touched Isaiah’s lips with the coal, he then said, “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” (Isaiah 6: 6-7) [3]

    In the Book of Zechariah, Zechariah was standing before the angel of the Lord, Satan, and God. (Zechariah 3:3) He was “dressed in filthy clothes” when standing before them. The angel then commanded him to take off his filthy clothing and gave him “festal apparel” and a clean turban to put on. At the removal of Zechariah’s filthy clothing, the angel proclaimed, “See, I have taken your guilt away from you.” (Zechariah 3: 4-5) Thus, the removal of Zechariah’s filthy clothing was like healing him from his guilt.[4]

  424. chas351,

    Do you understand that in these times we are going to see false signs and wonders coming from people talking about the fire of the Holy Spirit and the blood of Jesus ?

    The only way we can discern true from false is the fruit. .

    If you are happy with the fruit from TB then that is your choice.

    If you are only looking at the signs and wonders and words of TB , then you wont discern true from false.

    +++

    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
    2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

    +++

    2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

    2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

    +++

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    +++

    Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

    +++

    chas351,

    If you believe in TB , then that is your choice , and it shouldn’t bother you at all if many like myself have discerned the fruit of the counterfeit spirit with him.

    We are not called to evangelize for people to become followers of men .

    Blessings

    Kevin

  425. Roger (NZ) May 14th 2013

    This article shows the relationship between contemplative prayer and eastern mysticism. Whilst some will argue that Christian contemplative prayer is of God – this article proves the opposite.

    The sad truth is that many ‘leaders’ are teaching Christian contemplative prayer – and leading their ‘followers’ into another ‘gospel’, leading to another ‘christ’, which may also includes creation worship – as opposed to ‘Creator worship’

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/AOG-FOLLOW-UP-2013.html

  426. Kevin,

    You shared some good points here.

    Whenever we see someone in the Bible have an encounter with a spirit being they generally are totally taken by fear.

    Here’s what John said in revelations:

    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

    The whole attitude in the video I seen, just did not add up. A angel comes to his room, shocks him and he starts screaming very loudly, and then he starts checking his text messages?? God had to confirm this visitation with a text message about John G. Lake?

    Why do people want to see miracles and signs?

    When you know the Lord is that not enough confirmation that He is alive and real and we know He will do what He says.

    What did Jesus tell Thomas?:
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Something does not add up in this visitation of an angel to TB.

    We have the Word of God, we have the Spirit, we know we are born of God. Then why do so many need angels to confirm everything?

    Kevin I know you know all this I was just throwing in my two cents worth to your comment. :)

    GaryB

  427. Marilyn Crow May 14th 2013

    chas 351

    Just interested in your comments & wondered had you seen these scriptures in the following light. You brought out two interesting events where angel/s appear to Isaiah & Zechariah.

    To interpret God`s word, He always gives us the interpretation & points us to Christ. Now we know there are myriads of angels who do God`s bidding, but did you realise that our Lord & Saviour has taken on that title `angel/messenger,` to illustrate some aspect of His ministry. For example –

    * The angel of God, shows the Lord guiding & guarding.(Ex.14:19)
    * The angel of His presence, shows the Lord sympathizing & saving. (Is. 63:9)
    * The angel of the LORD, shows the Lord sustains & strengthens. (1 Kings 19:7 & many other places)

    These are called Theophanies where the Lord appears in this form. So with this in mind when we read Zechariah 3: 4 – 5 we see that the angel of the LORD is the theophany of the Lord. He is the one who is righteous & takes away Joshua`s filthy garments …. if you will walk in My ways…..` (v. 7)

    Joshua & the other priests are a symbol, God says, (v. 8) of Christ`s redemptive work as the true High Priest over Israel.
    (`My servant the Branch.` another title of our Lord. v.8)

    The Isaiah picture shows an angel bringing cleansing from God`s holy fire, which is Christ`s righteousness, to prepare Isaiah for service. Angels do not have the ability to heal. It is only through Christ`s holiness & His redemptive work on the cross that healing & salvation comes.

    Hope this has given you food for thought. Marilyn.

  428. Roger (NZ),

    Good article on Eastern mysticism appearing in many churches today with this contemplative prayer movement.

    Its eastern meditation with a Christian cloak.

    Matthew 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    GaryB

  429. Marilyn Crow May 14th 2013

    Roger

    Just looked up that article & showed my husband, Trevor. Will be showing that to many people. Thank you for the information, & much appreciated. So many people are reaching out for `something new.` Very sad.

    God bless you & yours. Marilyn.

  430. Richard Savage May 14th 2013

    It’s tragic so many people don’t find a sufficiency in the Risen Christ. Always reaching out for a new thing, striving, struggling for a spiritual supremacy when He stands at the door and knocks …

    This fact alone speaks so much about our times; it is an identification with Jesus own words in Matthew 24. How may we not see these as the last days of the last days?