TRANSCENDING the CULT OF “NICE”

-extracts by Kevin Kleint.

Sometimes I think that one of the reasons why Jesus chose fishermen to be in His group of disciples was because of their “thick skin”. Jesus knew that He needed people who could handle the Truth, even if it was a discomfort to their flesh.

Think about it …. Jesus said “Get behind me, Satan!” to Peter!
Did Pete get emotionally devastated and go into a corner and
pout? No, Peter still followed Him. Why? Because Jesus had the
Words of Life!

How would you react if someone called you a devil?

Strong Delusion

Consider this – if you find yourself cringing when someone tells
you the Truth of the Word, you don´t prize it. And, according to
2 Thessalonians, God Himself will send the delusion to you, and
you will be “damned”. That´s not me speaking… that´s the Word!

But you see, a very large percentage of the modern day church
wants nothing to do with the Truth of the Word. Sure, they love to
hear about the Grace of God towards them as “sinners” … and
they ABSOLUTELY ADORE the passages in the Word that
declare God´s undying love for them. But when you want to talk
about obedience to God´s commands, and how we can show our
love to HIM … somehow the “lights” go out.

Here is the Truth of the matter:

Our Love for God is defined by our obedience. Don´t tell me that
you love God, but find no obligation to obey His commands. If you
do, you´re a liar. Strong words? Yes they are, but it´s the Truth.

1 John 2:4
“He who says, `I know Him,´ and does not keep His commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His
commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

I´m sure I´ll get a few emails/comments on this last bit, but I´ve
grown used to it. It seems like people just can´t handle the Truth
of the Word, unless it´s pre-packaged to suit their own personal
“glitches”. This group of people I have dubbed “the Cult of `Nice´” –
and they are everywhere.

People who belong to the cult of Nice will compromise Truth in the
name of what they call “Love”. They serve a frail Jesus who likes
to hold baby sheep under His arms. Remember the pictures of
Jesus that you grew up with in Sunday school? The Jesus that
was surrounded by little angels (that look like fat babies with
wings)? Yeah… me too.

Hardly a picture of a Victorious King … whose name IS the Word of God.

The Cult of “Nice”

With the Cult of Nice, it doesn´t really matter what you say…. as
long as it´s the Truth, it´s offensive. You could take good, solid
scriptural Truth, wrap it up in their favorite Christmas wrapping
paper, put a little bow on it, smile and then tell it to them in a
“whisper” ….. and they would still think you were being mean.
They want a “Nice” truth, custom fit to their own desires and perspectives.

Saving Souls

The majority of the modern day church is sterile and ineffective
because we have bought into this lie that “showing the Love of
God” is an affectionate, altruistic act. This is why so many of our
churches are jumping on the bandwagon of the latest great “Cause”.
Don´t get me wrong … caring for the widow, orphan and those
less fortunate is a vital part of what we are to do as believers …
but it should never, EVER replace the concern for lost souls.

And you can´t win the “lost” without telling them the Truth. Just
like you can´t stay “found” unless you embrace the Truth.

So, the next time you feel the need to tell someone something
that could be interpreted as harsh or mean, check with the Holy
Spirit first. Don´t beat them over the head with it just because
you are in a bad mood … but at the same time, be faithful to God
to deliver His Word. Be like Jeremiah … don´t be afraid of their
faces! (Jer. 1:8)

Those who belong to the cult of Nice are enslaved by the fear of
man. Let´s fear God … His Words are forever.

-Read the FULL ARTICLE at the following link-

http://www.honorofkings.org/transcending-cult-nice/

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on August 23rd, 2013 at 10:37 am.

168 comments

168 Replies

  1. Good word!

  2. jGrace Aug 29th 2013

    Pure TRUTH…..
    May we all receive Correction with Humility and not Offense ….
    and Speak His Truth in Love w/out Compromise….
    Thank you for posting ….

  3. helen kelso Aug 29th 2013

    Yes I agree we need to embrace the Truth of God’s Word. Praise Him that Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. Sometimes it seems some Christians have a favourite topic to declare from a soap box and can be offensive to nonbelievers though, who need to hear the basic Gospel of God’s love and the price He has paid to redeem them from sin. When they respond then I believe the Holy Spirit brings to light an awareness of their sin..”Speaking the Truth in love!” As Believers though we need to be willing for correction and admonition or we are no better than the Pharisees if we only “Say..and Do not” Thankyou for what you have shared

  4. Mark Elam Aug 29th 2013

    ‘Faithful are the wounds of a friend.’

    It’s time to be a true friend to each other and to the lost.

  5. Thank you so much for speaking the truth!
    If only more people could stand up and be
    courageous, speaking the truth, but too many
    are fearing man, and not God!
    Deutr 31:6: Be strong and courageous. Dont
    tremble! Dont be afraid of them! The Lord your
    God is the one who is going with you”

  6. Bill Nippel Aug 29th 2013

    Following up on the previous well cited text,I would add… “but deceitful are the kisses of the enemy”.
    Furthermore…speaking the truth in love is referring to ‘having an inward motivation of good-will’ toward the one you are speaking to regardless of any “distress” this may cause the recipient. Yes, the truth does hurt sometimes.

  7. Joe Macri, Bucks,UK Aug 29th 2013

    When we pray and worship to Almighty God,and we say,”we love you”,and then we don’t do His will, we are liars.
    I don’t tell Him I love Him anymore,(well,I try not to). But I realise the only way is through deed.

  8. Thank you for this post. I run into this all the time and KNOW that the truth isn’t being said, but also see that they think you should always be NICE and never tell anyone just what you see by the truth of the scriptures. You MIGHT make someone feel bad………or offend them in some way. I have fallen under this knowing in my heart that it was wrong but not knowing how to tell the truth without offending some……….guess I just need to start telling the biblical truth and let the ones that it offends, learn that we MUST follow the Word of God or loose……….thanks again

  9. What a ring of Truth this message has and how I rejoice to hear it! Thanks for posting it. I’m sure to be sharing it as well as retreading it many times in hopes of sharpening my own actions toward truth as I follow Him.

  10. David Markham Aug 29th 2013

    Just a word of caution. I grew up hearing “angry preaching”. It painted me a picture of a God who was always angry. I failed to understand the love God poured out on Calvary. The word says, it’s his kindness that leads us to repentence. So, while we are speaking the truth with boldness, let’s make sure the love of God shines through.

  11. Barry Schmidt Aug 29th 2013

    What does speaking the truth and obeying the truth have to do with not being nice?
    Truth is always completely objective regardless of how it is spoken or the response it is given. But the TRUTH IS that we are always commanded to speak truth with grace, in love and with gentleness and respect:

    “The law came through Moses but GRACE AND TRUTH came through Jesus Christ”
    “instead SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE we will grow up into Him in all things”
    “always be ready to give the reason for the hope you have to ANYONE WHO ASKS YOU- but always In gentleness AND respect ”

    I always read that to mean we should respect people and be invited to speak truth to them “always be ready to give a reason for the hope TO EVERYONE WHO ASKS YOU.”

    I always thought truth was “nice” and that we are commanded to speak the truth “nicely”.
    Does it make truth more true if the truth isn’t “nice” or spoken “nicely”???
    IS NICE TRUTH LESS TRUE THAN truth that is not “nice.”

    Maybe those who claim to hold the monopoly on truth should consider the truth that more flies are caught with honey than with vinegar and the truth that the devil uses truth as well to accuse and condemn those whom God has justified.

    Maybe those who claim the monopoly on truth should consider that they have not “loved” this truth :
    Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 NASB)
    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “B lessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, A nd whose sins have been covered. “B lessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” (Romans 4:5-8 NASB)
    What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Just as it is written, “F or Y our sake we are being put to death all day long; W e were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” (Romans 8:31, 33, 34, 36 NASB)

    Half truth is no truth at all- nice or not nice makes no difference to that truth!.
    May God help is all to speak the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the truth – with grace, in love and with gentleness and respect.

  12. L. Alex Smith Aug 29th 2013

    Was Jesus “nice” ? Hmmm. When He gathered the little children unto himself, and said, “Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.”
    Did he speak the truth IN LOVE? Of course– how about the Rich Young Ruler, it says, “Jesus looked at him and LOVED HIM, and said, ‘One thing you lack yet: sell all that you have and give it to the poor, and come and follow Me, and you shall have Riches in heaven.” Despite Jesus LOVING him, despite the promise of “riches in heaven” (in worldly terms– “to sweeten the deal”)…he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
    How about when Judas pointed him out to the Temple police– Jesus said, “FRIEND, do you betray the Son of Man with many kisses?” (Lit. Greek, he kept on kissing him over and over). But Jesus called him, “Friend” even then…
    And how about Jeremiah, who spoke boldly:
    “My bowels! My bowels! (my inner-most ‘gut’) I am pained at my very heart! My heart maketh a noise in me: I can not hold my peace (keep quiet)…” Jerem. 4:19
    “O, that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of Tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!” Jerem. 9:1
    “Woe is me for my hurt! My wound is grievous: but I said, ‘Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.’ ” Jerem. 10:19, upon the prophetic word that YHWH would “sling out the inhabitants of the Land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.” Even though Jeremiah was righteous, he was identifying with Judah, grieved by the prophecy of their impending destruction.
    Paul, in Acts 20:31 said, “Therefore watch, and remember; that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn everyone night and day with tears…”
    And to the Corinthians he wrote: “Out of much affliction and anguish of heart, I wrote unto you with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.” II Corinth. 2:4
    So– was Jesus “nice” ?
    Was Jeremiah “nice” ?
    Was Paul “nice” ?
    The very word strikes me as SILLY.
    NO– they were not “Nice”…they were passionate in their Love; they were passionate in their rebuke. “Nice” lacks passion: it is apathetic; it is a luke-warm, watered-down version of so-called “Love” that is neither HOT with therapeutic passion (like the hot springs of Laodicea) nor is it COLD with refreshing, living water (like the cold springs of Laodiea). It is LUKE-WARM, fit only to be “spewed out of the mouth”.
    If your heart does not yet have the capacity nor contain this level of Love…PRAY!!! Beseech God to instill within you His true Love, borne from the Spirit, bearing the fruit of Self-Sacrifice…not the reverse order of self-initiated “self-sacrifice” to “prove that I have this Love”.
    THEN we will be equipped to proclaim the Anointed word: “The Good News is: You can be Forgiven! The Bad News is: You NEED to be Forgiven!” And it will strike home, deep into their hearts…and they will either respond to God, or they will run away!

  13. Kathleen in WA State Aug 29th 2013

    Barry Schmidt covered all the points I’d planned to pen, & L. Alex Smith is spot on with a call to anointed proclamations. I see no disconnect between being a Christ-following, obedient, gentle & kind person (which, for we ladies, is a precious commodity in God’s sight > 1 Peter 3:3-4) and truth-telling. One needn’t be harsh or carry a club in order to “reason together”. Isn’t the demonstration of gentleness & kindness itself evidence of God’s indwelling Spirit? After-all, is it not God’s very own love & mercy that leads men to repentance? (Romans 2).

  14. Johan Laubser Aug 29th 2013

    Barry,
    God bless you for the TRUTH you have spoken! I sense in the text another “angle” of bringing the TRUTH of Jesus CHRIST which leans towards a manmade works kind of message. SORRY, as Barry said:”the truth shall set you free and not make you misrable and insecure.” Read Barry’s response over and over. That is TRUTH!!!

  15. Good teaching.

  16. Barry Schmidt Aug 29th 2013

    The “cult” of NICE ? What saith the Scriptures?
    Some more hard TRUTH on speaking truth “nicely”

    1. With GREAT patience
    preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. (2 Timothy 4:2 NASB)

    2. With love and preserverence
    Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, (2 Timothy 3:10 NASB)

    3. With kindness patience and without quarreling (NICE!!!!!)
    The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:24, 25 NASB)

    4. With tolerance ( more NICE!!!!!)
    Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 NASB)

    5. Speak that which builds up NOT tears down
    Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. (Ephesians 4:29 NASB)

    Maybe Paul was in the cult of nice!!!!

  17. No other comments really needed than Barry Schmidt’s and L.Alex Smith’s, they said it all. I might add that we will not always come off as “nice” when we are confronted with those poisoned by wickedness and bound by iniquity. (Acts 8:23)

  18. Barry Schmidt Aug 29th 2013

    Now who can’t handle the truth ???

  19. truthseeker2 Aug 29th 2013

    If only the people who belong to the cult of nice would receive THIS truth. *sigh*

  20. All I know is that christians today, because of the stresses on the world and their lives, are becoming more impatient and unfriendly. It’s affecting me also. I try to be “nice” and when people take advantage of my “nice”, then I become angry and want to hide in a cave (not literally). And I worry that being too nice is not being truthful or forthright and on and on I go, not knowing how to adjust to do the right thing. I know I need to love people, despite the increasing intolerance, the use of constant profanity at work or in the street, car rage, impatient drivers, shoppers, unruly kids, incorrigible neighbors, and the increasing manipulative unhappy contentious people who scheme and create drama. This is the new culture we live in. Sin was always here, but in my 50-some aged life, the love of many has waxed cold and anger and frustration is at an all-time high.

    It’s a hard hard road to be “nice” to anyone these days. As a christian, I know I must overcome, and usually, do it. But, at times, it’s like the enemy just throws every angry bird at me all day, and it’s overwhelming. How many times can we tolerate being peppered with (blank this) and (blank that) in public and still have a soft heart for souls? It’s almost like I need a helmut to keep the F-words and profanity and middle fingers and pushy/shovy people away.

    And as far as reaching people with the gospel, the only way I can try, is through blogs. And I won’t go there about angry people on blogs. There are few places to meet other christians today. They are increasingly occupied with their church programs and have no time to just be in a calm relaxed atmosphere. The world has christians by the tail and makes them as overly-stimulated and busy and exhausted as the world.

    But our true model, Jesus, was able to stand the hypocrisies and slander and mocking of his own people, so I know I have to grow a thick skin too.

  21. thankyou for the message of the ‘nice’ cult. more need to hear it and know the truth as they are sadly deceived and led to believe the only way to be acceptable to be agreeable and nice. I have experienced much rejection within the church when truth, in love, was spoken. Ephesians 4:29

  22. Paul tells us that many will reject the truth and believe a lie. What is the lie? That they worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. We are called to live the truth and speak the truth. This can be done in many ways to reach many types of people. The key is being led of the Holy Spirit in all that we do. He knows the hearts of men and what is required to reach them.
    Here is a video of truth: http://youtu.be/uebVpStQIH0

  23. marilyn Aug 29th 2013

    If someone were blind and tripped on something in their path, would we become irritated and label them? Spiritual blindness is just that. They can’t see. Kevin worked for Elijah List for seven years! During that time he too was blind. Now that God has given his sight back he feels to mock others that are in his same condition. We are told not to “think of ourselves more highly of ourselves than we ought to think, but to think soberly as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.” It seems the young of the church mimic the young of the world in treating others as lower than themselves. God tells us to honor one another above ourselves. If you are a visible representative of the invisible God, any correction coming from you will be marked with love and respect. Maybe the reason others do not receive the truth you are speaking is because it is not wrapped in love. Anything you are “seeing” is only what God has allowed you to see. I just read Barry Schmidt and his comments. Thank you. May we all have God’s agenda in our hearts as we communicate with each other.

  24. Barry Schmidt; Amen.

  25. 3 John 4 I have NO GREATER JOY than to hear that my CHILDREN walk in Truth.

    While on a 10 day fast years ago, the Holy Spirit revealed to me some truths about myself, ugh. I wouldn’t have been able to bear it if it were not for simultaneously also experiencing an amazing love, understanding and comfort that enabled me to embrace full repentance through tears while the ‘surgical knife of truth” was doing its needful surgery. Oh how I thanked God that MERCY and TRUTH are met together.

    Brothers L. Alex Smith and Barry Schmitt said it all. I would only like to add:

    Galatians 6:1
    Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

  26. While the writing is somewhat needful to teach us about being careful not to water down the gospel in order to appease the listener, it forgets to remind us of the verses that Barry Schmidt shows.

    I believe that the Lord equips us with that love (which I am working on every day), and I pray we know how to distinguish being the secular world’s ‘nice’ versus offering the Word in love.

    I suppose there is a big distinction between a ‘cult of nice’ and a member of the Body correcting or admonishing in love, but boldly. I suppose when Jesus spoke boldly to Peter and called him Satan, it was necessary to rebuke an already ‘called’ out believer who was being trained to minister. But, still, Jesus, was and is Lord. He can rebuke sharply to whoever He wants. But, we as His children, have to follow the Word, and where the epistles and Timothy teaches, we have to be tender and loving and patient. A clinging cymbal without love won’t convict.

    Distinguishing true biblical love versus carnal worldly love. Or distinguishing true biblical charity versus “the cult of being nice” by the world’s standards is probably something we have to be discerning of every day.

    So my lesson for today is, that I need to search my heart and make sure that the love I show is not some humanitarian/I want to impress) kind of love. It has to be the true, real godly love (fruit of the Spirit) otherwise it doesn’t allow the Spirit in me to convict.

  27. angelos Aug 29th 2013

    Thank you and God bless you Andrew. When we reject or turn a deaf ear to Truth, we reject and turn from Jesus himself. Did He not say that He was, the Way, the Truth and the Life? I have been a participant in what you refer to as the “nice cult.” I am presently teaching a group of men in my home weekly. This message on Truth has been our subject for weeks. sharing in love is not necessarily nice. Even on this site, we have division and controversy. In these last days, much of the opposition toward truth will not come from the sinner, but from within. Andrew, you are such a breath of fresh air, at a time when the air is so stale with the traditions of man. Please, continue to speak the truth in love. If we stand alone…we must stand! God richly bless you!

  28. David Markham Aug 29th 2013

    It’s arrogant and prideful for any of us to think we understand all of God’s Truth. So while you stand on your “John the Baptist” soapbox, understand you could be completely wrong in the Truth you are shouting at others. I used to believe many things that I now know are not the Truth according to God’s word. I understand the whole “culture of nice” thing, but the other extreme is equally dangerous!!!

  29. Daniel Aug 29th 2013

    Each one of you speak truth with his neighbor, be angry and do not sin (Ephesians 4:11-12)

    So no one read the full article did they? Many of you have walked into the same thing that he wrote about above, in the name of love compromising the truth. The truth is: Jeremiah said some hard things, did he not love? Surely he did! Jesus said very painful things to the Pharisees (called them white-washed tombs, vipers etc). He was love incarnate. What about Peter? He spoke words that judged Ananias and Sapphira and they both fell dead. Paul called a magician a son of the devil, he wrote the Corinthians a searing letter that caused them to repent, he told the Galatians that they were foolish, and he wished that the Judaizers would castrate themselves. John the beloved delivered hard words of correction to the churches of Asia (through the Spirit of course). Did all of these men fail to speak the truth “in love”? Of course not, their motivation was always one of love. The point of the above article is that truth spoken will not be accepted by those who hate it. Yes it is to be spoken graciously and with patience, but what do you think rebuke and reproof sound like? A nice little walk through dandelion fields? He’s right we do have thin skin, we’re so afraid of not speaking the the truth “in love”, that we have no “love of the truth”. Love is a sacrifice, a laying down of our lives, we don’t need to be harsh when we speak the truth, we should have love overflowing our hearts, love first for Jesus and the evil that people commit against Him. Love for the Holy Spirit who is grieved and quenched by our fleshly ways, and yes love for our brothers and sisters. But I believe the writers point is this, “Better is open rebuke, than hidden love”.

  30. Lightning Storm Aug 29th 2013

    Way to speak the Truth, L. Alex Smith.

    The question is not “am I nice enough?”, the question is WHAT IS THE ROOT OF THEIR BEING OFFENDED?

    If we are CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit, then the scriptures state that DIVINE LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE are definitely being manifested through us……whether people feel it or not is NOT the basis on which we believe what is said in scripture.

    People are OFFENDED because of several ROOT causes.

    They have not allowed the LORD to heal the wounds of their soul from the past…..or don’t know that is even possible.

    PRIDE! Many people confuse having their “feelings” hurt with HAVING THEIR PRIDE HURT!

    The MAJORITY of people who are easily OFFENDED are PRIDEFUL AND PRACTICE IDOLATRY AND SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.

  31. Claudia Aug 29th 2013

    AMEN….AMEN…..AMEN….regarding the author’s opinion who wrote the topic of today!

    People who put “nice” above the truth….often also lack perseverance. If their nice tone and weak indirect approach runs into resistence……they often back off because they are afraid they will offend….rather choosing the friendship over keeping that friend from everlasting death.

    Unlike the very most nicest Mother who see her toddler reaching out to touch something hot, or lets say an electric plug with gooey baby spit little fingers. This is certainly not the time for goo goo baby talk when time is of the essence.

    We are running out of time. As a Mother, I would be one that shouts from accross the room….”NO!”…..as I was running towards the toddler to correct the act…..and of course to comfort the toddler from the fright he received from my warning. The toddler perceiving the danger and fright and sterness in the Mother’s voice….learns on so many levels…..and is less likely to ever attempt the action again.

    Of course foundational to this relationship between Mother and toddler is a nourishing past relationship of trust, comfort, love, and acceptance.

    Obviously the relationships we have amongst humans are different than that of Mother and child….but the underlying concern should be the same….as should the clarity of what, how, and why we are communicating our concerns for their everlasting safety.

    Yeshua our Savior did remind us that all humans should be considered as our family when it concerns Belief in Him….in that He should have the priority….the position at the top. Therefore our love for others should be equal to our love for our own children and always motivated by our supreme love for Him and His teachings.

    Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Mat 12:39 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

    So many Believers are treating their fellow humans with the same “worldly niceness” that they are raising their children with….which ultimately does not lay the foundation that will keep them safe and anchor them when the even now rising waters from satan’s mouth are flooding over the world. These children coming out of these families are turning into children of disobedience because it was more important for the parents that their children thought them to be cool…because the parents put their need for love over the needs of their children for good food, not junk food that destroys.

  32. I can’t get these things off my mind. The whole world is looking for peace. Even those who are stirring up unrest are doing it so they may ultimately have a utopian world of peace. Of course, they will have to be in control to keep the peace. These dreamers remind me of sheep dogs.

    We, the sheep are scared of the sheep dogs. But, the dogs are working for the Shepherd! They are rounding up the sheep for the Shepherd’s purposes. The Shepherd loves His sheep, but they have been out in the pasture with hirelings all summer, basking, playing, eating what they will — having church their way for a very long time. Instead of relying on faith they have been relying on money — just like the world does.

    The dogs have one thing in mind, because a dog and can only look at a situation and dream he is going to somehow be the beneficiary. But, most importantly, the Shepherd has another Plan. We will only see the dogs until we look higher and choose to believe that the GOOD Shepherd loves us and is quietly waiting for us. He is not disturbed. When we will see the dogs differently, they won’t bother us. We will stop running and get quiet also, believing that Jesus, our Shepherd is GOOD, and He knows what He is doing.

  33. Claudia Aug 29th 2013

    Nice should never interfere with the seriousness of that which is being discussed. Equally affective in our older (beyond toddler level) relationships when we are giving warning of something that may cause death…..is to have tears coming from our eyes, to soften the words spoken from our mouth concerning the topic….demonstrating our genuine love for the person to whom we are hoping to keep from harm…..and demonstrating the seriousness of the topic. Much like the tears one might cry at that person’s funeral…..because what is being discussed leads to death everlasting.

  34. DonaldN Aug 29th 2013

    Barry Schmidt…
    Please clarify your previous statement, are you saying that articles underlying purpose is promoting legalism or exposing legalism?

  35. martha Aug 29th 2013

    Well I am 80 years old…I prossibly don’t fit…Our nation’s laws wrere to be based on the Law of the 10 Commandments until 1948 when they were taken to the World Court to be dissolved but were no longer allowed to be taught in school…then last day of 2012 Obama had delivered the “Bill of Rights” to the International court to dissolve…which was the base of our Contstitution so we are now a dictatroship. We are no longer a Christian Nation or do we know the 10 Commandments or post them on our doorpost…We are called the daughter of Babyon by the world and in Rev 18 God (HaShem) he has a name…will put this island under the sea and judge our nation…and the small sheepfold who understands this crys….

  36. 100% Zululander Aug 29th 2013

    Well said Daniel.
    Everything anyone, says, thinks or does, is done in a context. Even what God does & says, is said in a context. we see things in different contexts.
    In the context barry spoke about, he’s right, cant argue. In another context the writer Kevin is right. thats why there will always be debate on anything you discuss.
    Barry I think you “sniffed” wrong with regards to what Kevin said in the context of his statements. He was speaking of pretty specific situations which are general in the church today, not a princple of how all preaching, teachiing & encouraging should be, which is what you also correctly spoke on.
    Context is the problem with all biblical exegesis. People don’t take the context into account. Language use, culture, problem being addressed, state of people, desired outcome etc etc etc.The issue here is not truth or error being preached. It’s how do we speak the truth and that depends on the context.
    Do I hug my little son or wack his bum? (both actually) depends on the context BUT always in love. Both have the same desired effect done in the right context….his long term benefit
    Re read the context Kevin wrote in. He’s right.

  37. Claudia Aug 29th 2013

    It was posted earlier:
    ======================
    5. Speak that which builds up NOT tears down; Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. (Ephesians 4:29 NASB)
    =====================

    Define: “unwholesome”
    Define: “edification”
    Define: “prophetic person”

    I would suggest that an example of unwholesome would be calling someone we are trying to help….”a dirty, filthy bum”. I would also suggest that would not be edifying. I perceive that is what Paul meant, and it has nothing to do with the topic of “nice” as the writer is discussing. Words can be picked which are not offensive to state any truth that we may perceive. I would suggest that the word “sniff” and “smell” both give an image of stinky, oderous, smelly….not uplifting at all.

    Howver, people who put “nice” (according to my understanding of the article, which could be wrong) first according to their self love issues would not give instruction or enlightenment to a person if they thought those true words would offend that person. They would not speak even edifying words….meant to rise that person morally or spiritually to a higher level. They would not risk their own popularity or nice image to keep that person from walking over a cliff. That is what I perceived the danger of the “nice cult” to be. Those who will not stand up for the truth, even using mature, edifying, wholesome words.

    As to “prophetic person” I would boldly declare that one of the greatest sins of the modern church is man ordained prophets…man teaching other men how to be prophets. A prophet is called by YHWH and that calling will knock one to the ground and totally humble that person. There will be no pride or self righteousness within that prophet. He will not get angry at any slight to himself, but his anger will be reserved for that which profanes His Master, and even than he will try to productively control that anger. He will not make judgements based on his own understandings and prejudices and hunches, nor will he have to sniff out anything….because YHWH will always present the Truth to a real prophet clearly all neatly packaged on a plate when he least expects it…very simular to how YHWH revealed that His Word was for the Gentiles also.

    Barry, you have just accused the writer of the article of supporting legalism and Self effort religion”….which I guess means we are not to teach anyone the 10 Commandments, or make any effort on our own in our daily lives to spread the word. Than you go on and judge most all the posters on this current topic….asking: “Where is the discernment in the body today?????”

    Were you being edifying….or were you tearing down and judging many possible truths that have been posted already on this topic? This article obviously causes you offense. Many times our offenses are caused by things we read into things, based on our pet peeves….so to speak. I have certainly been guilty of that.

    We all must constantly examine what is behind our own sight, because none of us are completely dead to self yet.

    4. With tolerance ( more NICE!!!!!)
    Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 NASB)

    Such a good scripture….ending with we are not to go to war over our faith….as are the muslims….but we are to be patience and diligent, persevering unto the end.

    I personally abhore the person who is always “nice” even when something horrific is happening. It sends the wrong message…a message that is false. I believe that is what the writer of this article was concerned about….but not sure…..just my own take on the subject.

    Yes, the “truth” clears the waters, allows one to see, and can set one free…..but if one sees the truth and does not follow the truth…it will make you miserable and insecure. If one is swimming in the waters spewed forth by the dragon…and another comes to him and tells him that the pleasant waters are soon going to be heated up to boiling, and also points the way to the life raft that is floating nearby…..but the swimmer is enjoying the pleasant waters too much and does not want to leave them, and does not know whether to believe the speaker or not…..but deep inside he is being witnessed to by the Holy Spirit…..than…..yes indeed….that swimmer is going to become miserable and insecure the longer he tarries in those waters.

  38. Claudia Aug 29th 2013

    The article was not about …..stop being nice. It was about don’t stop telling the truth because it may make you NOT nice.

    Coming to Jesus is not about coming because He loves us. (Oh golly, finely…someone loves me!) It is about knowing Him and how He wants us to live, and committing to Him and His Way because we believe IT is the Way.

    The Aunt who knows her niece (who teaches Sunday school class in church) is having sex with her boyfriend on a regular basis, and decides not to speak with the niece about abstinence, and representing falsly the Lord…..because the aunt fears it is not her place….and it would not be nice…..is what this article is about to me. This is not legalism saying the Aunt or any other Christian, even the girls best friend should stand up and speak to the girl concerning the hypocrisy of her life.

    It is those types of witness that is exactly why the churches have lost their flavor, their salt. Condoning not condeming sin rampant within the church is a disgrace and it is a poison. It is the waters spewing forth from satan’s mouth.

  39. Claudia Aug 29th 2013

    Martha….you are so very wise…..but….your generation shall not pass until all has been righted by YHWH’s Right Hand.

  40. Victor Aug 29th 2013

    Somewhat off topic, but I’d like to see a church that lives together, shares with one another as a family does, and gathers in meetings for the express purpose of achieving some goal. As good as it is that Andrew and others point out the inconsistencies between the institutional church and Scripture, where are the churches I’m talking about? With such a large following as this one, I don’t understand why this hasn’t been achieved already. You want love and obedience at the same time? Bring together people who are willing to stop living to support one’s self, who start to exist for the good of things bigger than one’s self, like a Christian community that lives together and works together. I wish we’d stop complaining about what’s wrong and actually use this website to organize a gathering of Christians who stop using their money and businesses to take care of themselves and commit to lose their lives in this world and take up their cross and follow Jesus TOGETHER!!! Not one day or two days a week together, but every day together. Why hasn’t this been accomplished already? Why is everyone complaining without plans for change? Where are the noble people with means to make change, who will rise up and make changes? It’s one thing to know the right way according to the Bible. It’s a whole other thing to live like that. Christians today live just like the world. ALL OF THEM DO. Spouting lofty ideals, but doing nothing to see it become reality. Everyone lives in his own house, with his own finances, his own car, his own possessions… everything is his own! And we call that Christianity, to live as unto yourself, while making occasional sacrifices, that don’t affect the comfortable lifestyle that we are all addicted to. We are just like the world, except we are more judgmental than the world and we call ourselves Christians. But, there are non-Christians who give more than Christians, regularly. And they don’t make a show when they do it either. Why are non-Christians living in community, but Christians continue to live unto themselves. How many of you have your own house, your own everything, and use what you own to help yourself to survive more than others? ALL HANDS SHOULD GO UP. This is not Christianity. Spout your lofty ideals and complain about the inconsistencies, but the Church has done nothing to stop living like the world and start laying down our lives as a lifestyle. How many encourage their kids to get a good education IN THE WORLD, but won’t push their children to spend four years in intense study of the Bible? We are students and children fo this world. Don’t be fooled. It’s one big hypocrisy to call ourselves Christians. We have not given up EVERYTHING to commit to a new culture in Christ, where old understanding has passed away and our understanding of life has become completely new. Let’s talk about why we’re still living lives in this world.

  41. 100% Zululander Aug 29th 2013

    Dont paint too broad a stroke Victor.
    There are many wonderful christians in the world living for others in the Kingdom, not themselves.
    Maybe you need to find another crowd to hang with ???

  42. Chuck D. Aug 29th 2013

    Ritht ON! “Thy Word is truth!” Let lus not in any way dillute that truth. Very few have really heard the TRUTH during the past 3 or 4 generations. I am 98 years old and I speak from experiential observation.

  43. Sandra Miller Aug 29th 2013

    Well said…

    I have worked at a crises pregnancy center for 15 years. What was so revealing to me was that as I counseled ladies is how the Holy Spirit led me to speak to these females. A few times I was led to take them to the ‘woodshed’; other times it was time of appealing to the laws of nature – how it reinforces Biblical truth, how it applies to them always with the idea of demonstrating how they need the LORD..

    In my experience and as I understand the WORD there is no one size-fits-all method in giving words of admonition APART from speaking what/how the Holy Spirit would lead you to speak.

  44. Ron Garber Aug 29th 2013

    What you said is true but many that say they love the word only love it if it agrees with their teaching. Otherwise they call it legalism. Paul plainly said by the spirit that women were not permitted to teach or exercise authority over men but they will not obey and except it as the word or God. Also he instructed women to cover their heads when praying and prophesying. What about you Brother Kevin do you advocate a different teaching? Or do you belong to the cult of nice? Many twist the Scriptures to find away around the word to tell women what they want to hear. The word of God is clear on this subject.

  45. wineskin Aug 29th 2013

    “Blessed are the peacekeepers.” ~Jesus

    Ain’t it funny how the only ones that Jesus WASN’T “NICE” TO was the religious leaders, teachers and scribes?? (Matt 23)

    The article only proves that today’s Christian leaders, teachers and writers have learned little from Jesus.

  46. Why is it so hard, despite all the evidence staring us in the face, that this Christian RELIGION, the religion of Nice, is not what the Bible teaches us? Christianity, as practiced in the West, is a RELIGION not that different from other world religions. The biggest mission fields in the West are the Christian Churches! They don’t teach the true Gospel, few there believe in the true Gospel, and when God looses the true Gospel back on the Land they will be the ones who fight it the hardest. Come out of it if you haven’t yet! And stop thinking they are our brethren!

  47. http://www.revivalschool.com/transcending-the-cult-of-nice/#comment-21517

    That’s a good word Barry… :-)

    We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister. (1 John 4:19-21 NIV)

    The more I personally receive the Love which God has for me – the forgiveness which God has for me – the more I love all those who He has saved – who He has made my brothers and sisters… :-)

    I am experiencing this… :-)

  48. Andrew Aug 29th 2013

    The cult of “Nice” is really talking about the unwillingness to speak TRUTH because it might “offend” or be seen as “not nice”.

    Christianity in many places has become the religion of “nice” – not the home of Truth.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  49. I was reading in the Gospels recently and noticed that the disciples came to Jesus and said:

    Matthew 15:12
    Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

    Jesus did not hesitate to speak out against the sins and deceptions of the leadership of His day and time.

    I just thought it was interesting that the disciples at that point in time did not “realize” that the Lord knew exactly what He was doing.

    GaryB

  50. Ah yes political correctness at its finest! Thank you Andrew for not being afraid to speak the truth. Packaged in “niceness” the lie is sending us to hell on the fast track. What we think is truth is not always correct-how important it is to be in God;s word and know what HE says is the truth. Again, thank you Andrew for being a voice in the wilderness!

  51. Averyl Aug 29th 2013

    Ron Garber, – Perhaps you think women should not post on this forum as by doing so they can be seen as teaching?!

    I agree that Jesus wasn’t nice to the religious leaders of His day.
    Banging on to unbelievers is different. Many are offended by our self-righteous attitude, are well aware of their sins, & believe Jesus Christ is the Saviour.
    But they can’t envisage themselves as straight, let alone as Christians, Perhaps they don’t even want to be like the Christians they know! It all seems too hard.
    They need to be given a vision.

    Without a vision the people perish.

  52. Claudia Aug 30th 2013

    Let’s put all women in burkas…..that should solve Paul’s problem, or I mean Ron Garber’s concerns. ;-)

    I would consider taking all the scriptures together, and how Yeshua treated Mary Magdelane, to conclude that what Paul was trying to avoid was the pride of men having any woman in any position that might threaten that man’s authority when it came to a position within the official church structure of that time. Many things were based on culture of the times. Such as the scripture that states women should not dress like men or men like women. That was not referring to the dress….but to the sex act.

    As a woman, I have the makeup to adore and serve a true man of YHWH’s authority. That is why the women were so much more capable of adoring Yeshua….such as when Mary annoited him with the precious oil. I have no problem submitting to a man of authority….but one can always tell the real authority that comes from YHWH, as apposed to the authority that comes from self importance, or the desire to be important. There are many cases in the Bible where the woman was given the authority because the men lacked the will….being leaders in war, as occurred in the Old Testament, as just one example.

    I believe that the higher law, such as revealed by Yeshua that we all will be the same in YHWH’s realm, as are the angels, …..no giving or taking in marriage…..speaks volumes concerning YHWH’s end goal concerning men and women…when the matters of this world are in the past.

  53. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    Claudia… should we take your explanation of why Paul wrote what he did about women, or should we take Paul’s explanation. He made it perfectly clear why women should not speak in church, teach or usurp authority over a man. Ron Garber was not nice to you when he made the statement, but he is scriptural more than you. You cannot over ride the Word by your tradition.

  54. Wow – that is not very politically correct – I’m offended! ;-)

  55. Andrew, this article by Kevin is spot on.
    there is ample scripture to support it
    Prov 27
    5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
    Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
    The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.
    Isaiah 30: 10 – 15
    !! Tim: 4:3
    “For the time will come when they (Gods people) will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    also Titus 1: 9 and 2: 1

    Tell us something “nice” ,
    It began in the garden with a smooth whispering, “snake” fooling Eve.
    We are to endure, embrace, correction however un-sweet it may seem
    Pr Michael

  56. Bill Harper Aug 30th 2013

    Nice Preachers
    Bill Harper
    September 27, 1998

    There are so many nice guys
    behind the desk of God.
    They seem to be so wise,
    But always spare the rod.

    They preach a pleasant sermon,
    for they are positive men.
    They can surely get it done
    Without that word called “sin”.

    They speak about the general things,
    and the blessings of the Lord.
    They talk about the King of Kings
    and how we’ll be restored.

    They speak about salvation
    and you’ll repeat a prayer,
    but there’s no expectation
    that repentance should be there.

    They don’t want to be offensive
    and your feelings they won’t hurt,
    so they won’t be extensive
    about your evil sins they skirt.

    They’ll just talk about repentance
    in a very general way,
    and they surely wouldn’t sentence
    all the ones who’d rather stray.

    They won’t be judgmental
    Of the sins that you prefer,
    And surely not instrumental
    In inferring you’re not pure.

    Now, they’ve got a job to do,
    and they’ve got a plate to pass,
    and if their numbers are too few,
    that wouldn’t show much class.

    They won’t talk about your pride.
    Haughty spirit they won’t mention.
    They will skirt the issue wide,
    and won’t draw too much attention.

    Covetousness they’ll ignore
    since the lottery they play,
    and they surely wouldn’t implore
    that you ought to change your way.

    And if by chance you hit the big one,
    and you become a millionaire,
    when the celebrating is done,
    don’t forget the tithe’s their share.

    They will strive to be so kind
    as they preach God’s Word to you.
    In God’s Word there’s much to find,
    but the gentle words will do.

    They will visit when you’re sick,
    And they’ll pray that you get well.
    In this they’ll be so very quick,
    but they’ll never mention hell.

    There’s one thing that they’re asking you,
    since nice words are what they say,
    that you’ll be a friend that’s true,
    on that final judgment day.

    When you’re before that judgment throne,
    and the books are open wide,
    don’t say they didn’t make, to you, known,
    all your sins that are inside.

  57. 100% Zululander Aug 30th 2013

    Chuck… 98 & still going strong. Wonderful. Be Blessed. I have some way to go & hope i can still enjoy stuff at your age. I hope this discussion that goes round n round ever repetitious in a never ending circle doesn’t make you dizzy. :)
    Great poem Bill, thanks.

  58. Gary Gorham Aug 30th 2013

    Today the Lord Spoke the name Absalom and I found the passage and He bore witness to the words “so Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel’” Is this what Paul refered to as another Christ another Gospel and another Spirit? Its as if we become distracted Like Martha with so many things when there is only One that is important. Aren’t we weary of the constant flood of words that make up our life. Satan has turned us into lawyers all. Come unto Me and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am meek and lowley and I will give you rest for your sould for My burden is easy and My load light.” A law shall go forth from Me and I shall cause My judgement to rest to be a light to the peoples.”

  59. Janine Henschel Aug 30th 2013

    REALLY GOOD TEACHING I like that the ‘cult of nice ‘ I just call it LUKEWARM or CARNAL christians, LOL the bible says that we are NOT to be OFFENDED so, if we are then I always tell someone, “if you don’t like what I am saying, take it up with God, ok for I am just the MESSENGER, I am just giving you what the bible says, and the scriptures so if you don’t like them, then you are a LYER and CHRIST IS NOT IN YOU !, if you don’t want to follow what the bible says, and again I didn’t say that the bible did, shalom and be blessed !

  60. Marius Burmeister Aug 30th 2013

    True words spoken. Amen By loving God and Jesus Christ you will obey the Commandments. Gods people must obey Him and His will for us to be put aside for His work.

  61. Andrew Aug 30th 2013

    Keeping Christ’s commandments?

    Amen!

    Jesus spoke of this over and over.

  62. Marilyn Crow Aug 30th 2013

    A couple of points.

    I find these generalisations not helpful.

    “a very large percentage of the modern church…”
    “& the majority of the modern church…”

    They are not true or indicative of the true Body of Christ.
    To establish his point Kevin needs just to state his observations, which are valid & important – we need to speak the Truth of Christ without fear or favour & with the right attitude as many have pointed out.

    To enlarge on this great topic I would bring out the point of using wisdom & discernment when discipling others & bringing in Truth.

    Remember Jesus said He had much to share with His disciples but that they were not able to receive it at that time.

    And the writer to the Hebrews also says that those believers were to go on to other Truths of Christ. This shows the importance of progressing carefully through the truths of Christ – His Character & His Purposes.

    I personally have found when working with the Holy Spirit in discipling others & the teachers of others that asking questions helps to establish where the person is at & then by gradual steps help them further in knowing Christ.

    The joy comes when the disciple, by your guidance in the Holy Spirit comes to an understanding of the word & receives revelation.

    These are the areas that people need help in when sharing truth.
    When to share & how much is the disciple ready for at that time.
    This all takes much guidance & pruning by the Holy Spirit on the one who would share the truth. To `rightly handle the word of truth,` involves a deep work in a person`s life.

    Marilyn.

  63. Transcending the cult of *Compromised* Nice…I heard a guy get up and teach one sunday morning and the finishing line for me was when he said ‘Jesus is just…nice’. The problem is that a lot of people are trying to sell a Jesus that people find acceptable…and everyone likes a nice guy. But that message itself is compromised. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that its wrong to be nice, but its wrong to seek to be compromised.

  64. Excellent article. Glad to know I am not alone. We had a Fellowship that stood for truth, and even though a lot of love was shown and there was a lot of good humour, one by one folk left to compromise themselves in a church that was easy going and fringed into the ecumenical. I was considered a hard-liner. On one occasion I was accused of making an idol out of truth. Given that Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life, can we make an idol out of Jesus?

    Truth has become a secondary consideration in the present age. Professing believers are more inclined to ask “What’s in it for me?” We should be asking what the Lord wants of us.Here in the south west we have a meeting for isolated believers and those who want to stand for Biblical truth and have recently renamed it: Standing for Truth

  65. Sandra Miller Aug 30th 2013

    Ron Garber – I do not know if you were addressing your post towards me or not since it appears right after mine. I do appreciate your desire to be obedient to the WORD but I must take exception to your take on females not teaching males…if you read the context in which it was written Paul was talking about the church public assembly – the meeting together of formal worship, not in an informal conversations. There are historical accounts of females telling/teaching males with no word of condemnation…but where is one to begin? How about Anna when she prophesied? Or, Mary telling the disciples Jesus had risen? Or, how about Philip’s daughters? Or, Priscilla?

    The scripture you referred to in 1Cor.11 is applicable today – I wear a head covering during all my waking hours! I wear it because I want to honor the LORD Jesus. In wearing this badge of honor, he is giving me authority to prophecy, pray, have power with the angels. In doing so he has empowered a female to be the woman she was meant to me and that is not a doormat!

    When I was at CPC we were told to not minister to males – this is a man’s job. If a male was coming in, we were to call a pastor to come take care of him. Well…one day, one day, I got a call and a male was coming in. I told him to come one knowing I could call a pastor to come. I called the ones who were to be available but no one answered the phone, no one, I could not find ONE male who could come because NOBODY answered the phone. I panicked! What was I to do???

    The Holy Spirit so gently spoke to me in my distress: “Sandra, would you refuse to give someone a cup of water just because he is a male?” “No.” “That is all I am asking you do do. You got the symbol of power on your head, now use it!” ” Yes, Lord.” I do not recall what followed but the Holy Spirit did teach me a lesson. Maybe it was this lesson that I needed more then what the fellow needed.

    God bless.

  66. 100% Zululander Aug 30th 2013

    So many posts on truth. All about how we much preach truth.
    What is truth?
    Is the bible truth? Or is it a book of facts?
    Is knowing the truth mean you know the correct facts of a teaching in the bible?
    So if I study a lot & get all the facts will I then have the truth & be made free as the bible says?

  67. Jerry Olson Aug 30th 2013

    Thank you Kevin for allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you in this article. Back on August 5, 2013 I was driving in my car when I heard these words. “Worship in It’s highest form is OBEDIENCE”
    I did not know this but when I began to study and then write a 4 page writing about it, I began to understand what our lord was telling me. This subject must obviously be strong on our Lord’s mind for it seems as if this is the topic of the season. Time must be getting shorter because the church body must make herself ready before our Lord returns. Repentance and especially obedience must truthful be our call.

  68. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    Zuluander…Actually, YES. If you study the Bible you will be established in the TRUTH. As long as one’s heart is to know the truth and reject the temptation to filter it through man’s tradition. The Holy Spirit will indeed show us the truth through the study of the Word, that is the written word, which is the foundation of our faith. The Holy Spirit will make that Word come alive in our hearts, if our hearts are right toward God.

  69. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    Sandra Miller…
    First, let me say that I do not believe a woman should never speak to or witness to a man. I will not make a doctrine out of this.
    But……You have used experiences rather than the Word of God to establish what you believe.
    This is exactly how many doctrines come about.
    Example… many years ago a woman witnessed to a man with a great outcome of salvation. Then it became ok for women to begin to teach, then it became ok for women to become pastors and lead whole congregations. In all situations, others will take a step further than what we permit.
    We must be led by the Holy Spirit in every way.
    But the Holy Spirit will never lead against the Word of God, hence, the teaching of the Bible of a woman being under authority to her HUSBAND (not to every man), a woman not becoming a teacher, except to other women, nor becoming a deacon or bishop. We must take the whole of the Word and not add tradition or experience to it to make our true doctrines.

  70. 100% Zululander Aug 30th 2013

    Right on Jerry, obedience is the issue.
    Donald err.. yes… maybe, not necessarily.
    Don’t worry, it’s off the subject at hand.
    Be Blessed

  71. This is a perfect description of the church in America today, but the shake-up is coming, and it won’t be nice for many of them ! It is either they accept the truth or be damned, and some of us are ready to say it like it is !

  72. marilyn Aug 30th 2013

    The only thing we as believers and followers of Jesus Christ have as TRUTH is the written Word of God. That must always be our reference. When we make a subjective statement as Jerry Olson does, “Thank you Kevin for allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you in this article.” We must take all that Kevin wrote and how he wrote it and compare it to God’s word. Which is exactly what several godly men did in their comments. David, Markham, Barry Schmidt, L. Alex Smith, Andrew J. Horton, John Laubser.

    In Hebrews 10:14-18 (for context) and in 14 & 15: “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us…..” There is nothing in us that would cause us to ever want to seek after God, everything in us is opposed to God. We hate submission. Only God can stir within us to desire to come to Him and see His love for us personally and confess that He is right and holy and just in all things and we have been against Him. This is a supernatural thing that God causes to happen to us.

    Our obedience too comes from seeing that love He had for us BEFORE we acknowledged that we desperately needed Him. Therefore,” work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” And in 1 John we are told: “We love Him because He first loved us.” And in Eph. 5 we are told that it is Jesus who gave Himself for the church, “that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.” HE died for HIS church, and HE will accomplish what He said He would.

    Jesus prays for us in John 17, and if He prays for us it must be His priority. He prays for believers that we might all be one, “As You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” So, really, what Kevin has to say and how he says it is so very tiny. When compared to God’s word, he is not working with Jesus for His church. He is writing as if it is his mind and words that will change what he sees is wrong with the church that JESUS promises to cleanse and sanctify and present to Himself without spot or wrinkle. As believers we would be encourage to want to please God, not offended. For it is the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that causes us to want to change and ask for His help to do so. That the world might see us and thank Him.

    God’s word tell us in 1 Peter 4:7 that “the end of all things is at hand, therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. And above all things have fervent love for one another, for love will cover a multitude of sins.” 2 Tim 3:16 tells us that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction of righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    Thank you for your article Kevin, that it has separated in these comments those who desire to please God, and those who desire to be gruff with Jesus’ flock, thinking their power comes from themselves and their own words. Paul tells us that the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Thinking that you know how to treat His flock. Thank you Father, for those of like minds and hearts, showing that the prayer Jesus prayed for us is manifest in our being one. “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on,, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.” Phil. chapter 3 for context.

    “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.” 2 Tim 2:24-26

    Thank you for your sweet spirit Marilyn Crow, Kathleen from WA.

    Thank you Jesus that You are able to save those who belong to You. May we be those who represent Your Love to all those You send our way. We come to You Father for wisdom. Thank you for saving me and giving me eye salve that I might see.

  73. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    I believe prayer is in order for all here.
    I suppose many of you are like myself, a relative nobody so far as the local Church authority goes. The pastors and teachers and evangelists that have an established ministry look at us as if to say, “who do you think you are to tell us what we are doing is not the truth!?”
    I, for one, need prayer for boldness, just as Paul asked, that I will speak what God has put on my heart, without fear of what man may say. They need to hear. Some might accept and change, some definitely will not. If we neglect to speak what God has put on our heart, we are guilty of withholding the truth.

    Ezek 3:17 “Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me.
    18 “When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
    19 “Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
    20 “Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
    21 “However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.”

    I will commit to pray for any who desire it.

  74. 100% Zululander Aug 30th 2013

    Donald im not quite understanding your problem with boldness & what you have to say.
    Can you not speak to your pastor or an elder over coffee & tell them what the Lord has shown you? Surely you have a relationship with your leaders?
    If you’re not in a church who do you want boldness to speak to? I’m sure you are not wanting to bring correction to a church are not part of!!

  75. Averyl Aug 30th 2013

    What happened to the “neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek” text?

  76. DonaldN, Sandra Miller and others,

    It appears to me Some here have their theology mixed up with confusion.

    Should women minister to men?

    In the NT we see that Apollos was taken aside and several “women” shared with him the more excellent way. In other words they told Apollos about the Baptism of the Spirit. Up till then he only knew of the baptism of John.

    Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

    It looks to me that these women were ministering to Apollos with no added tradition here.

    GaryB

  77. Sandra Miller Aug 30th 2013

    Donald, I suspected when I used experience in my post that someone would come along and discount what I wrote because I used a testimony. If you will carefully read what I wrote I mentioned Bible in my post and used my experience to point out how it is still valid today. Experience does not trump Biblical directives. I could make a point by point exposition on 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 but that is beyond the scope of this discussion AND some would be sure to fault it because I happen to be a female. However, I have also observed that when a female comes along and says, “Yes” to this doctrine it will diffuse some of the excuses why it is not necessary for our era.

    Having said all this, I appreciate Kevin’s OP. Too many times Christians are intimated into silence for fear of opposition, fear of the ugly words that are sure to come when one stands for truth. For some reason if one shares the WORD we are considered guilty of hate speech but when others rail at you the principle does not apply. And…we do want to be nice, do we not? We want to be appreciated, do we not? Yet, Jesus did not seem to care about these things at all. What an inspiration…

  78. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    Some one correct me if I am wrong, but I was always taught that Aquilla and Presilla were a husband and wife team, which would fit the Word quite well.

  79. Lightning Storm Aug 30th 2013

    Well, there’s no fear of people being “too nice” when it comes to making comments on this website.

  80. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    1 Timothy 2:12
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    (and other such scriptures)
    I have heard for many years why this scripture does not mean what it actually says. I have heard all the explanations and references to other scriptures where women are speaking and why.
    In all these explanations from these teachers, I have never heard what this scripture is doing in the Bible since it does not mean what it says.

    I welcome the truth. If you want my email address to send me your study, ask for it. I would be glad to read it.

  81. DonaldN Aug 30th 2013

    Actually, this website shows how difficult the truth really is.
    There are many views of what the truth is, some even totally opposite. All have scriptures to back up their doctrine.

    Why?

  82. Lighting Storm,

    :) :) :)

  83. DonaldN,

    Oh your right my mistake Aquila was a man. I don’t know what I was thinking, I guess I wasn’t thinking that is. :)

    GaryB

  84. Lightning Storm Aug 31st 2013

    Averyl…..I’m with you….what happened to that text and why is it not applied “all the time”?

    There shouldn’t be any contradictions in the scriptures….so if there are…..then something is not being INTERPRETED CORRECTLY by the READER.

  85. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    I do not keep any of His commandments. He keeps them through me.
    Which one of you, if your son asks for bread/life, will you give him a stone/commandment.

  86. Marilyn Crow Aug 31st 2013

    Thank you Marilyn for your encouragement & I appreciate your comments also `being one,` of like `minds & hearts.`

  87. Marilyn Crow Aug 31st 2013

    I believe the Holy Spirit is asking us some interesting & important questions.
    Q.1. `What is Truth?
    Is the Bible Truth or is it a book of facts?` (100% Zululander)

    We know there are facts in the Bible. `The multitude stood by the sea.` etc. However it is Christ who is the Truth & speaks of truth. We would not know of the heavenly realms or the Father`s great love for us except Christ came & told us of Him & showed Him in His life.

    We read of Christ`s character & His purposes & these are the truths that are eternal (of Christ) & written for us to know.

    Q.2. `Why are there so many views of what the truth is….`
    (DonaldN) because `something is not being interpreted correctly by the reader.` ( Lightning Storm)

    People say `the Holy Spirit guides me.` This seems right but the `me` aspect is fallible. Here is an extreme example.

    A person thinking they are being guided by the Holy Spirit turns up Matt. 27: 5 `he went away & hanged himself.` Then they get `led,` turn up Luke 10: 37 `go & do likewise.`

    Obviously the person was not Holy Spirit led. But how do we decide in less extreme cases, what is of the Holy Spirit or not.
    The Lord does not leave it to `fallible` us to decide what is of the Holy Spirit but has given us clear Holy Spirit guidelines for us to check against.

    A. The Bible is Christ centred not us centred.
    B. The Bible tells of Christ`s purposes for 3 groups of people –
    The Body of Christ, Israel, the Nations.
    C. The Holy Spirit interprets types, symbols etc in His Word.

    If the Holy Spirit guidelines are not given attention, then people speak out of their own imaginations & opinions leading to error, quarrelling & immaturity.

    However when speaking & obeying the Truth of Christ`s character & His purposes in line with the Holy Spirit`s guidelines then we will have clarity & be brought to maturity in Christ.

    Marilyn.

  88. Healing Balm Aug 31st 2013

    Apparently, I could seek truth, obtain much knowledge of the Bible, and even be killed because others did not like what I spoke and still be NOTHING in God’s eyes. (I Cor. 13)

    So what are we to do? Are we to seek to please God and make Him happy? Yes, yes! When I shepherded a small group of people that were brought together by the Holy Spirit, I saw that the “love of God brought them to repentance.” It was amazing to see how the emphasis on the Living Word brought in a desire to be made pure and clean. I never spoke of personal sins to individuals as God did not reveal them, but the Lord did the work. When the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, we welcome the work of righteousness as seen in the face of Jesus.

    We should not,actually can not separate the love of God from His righteousness and truth. It’s a whole package, revealing the richness of God.

    Imagining a square frame around a picture of Jesus, I name one side Love and the opposite side is Righteousness. In the other direction, one side is Mercy and opposite is Judgement. Pull on one side and the frame breaks down, distorting the picture of Jesus.
    If we attempt to emphasize one side of God, we distort Jesus.

    I cannot have Godliness without God. Let the framework remain: God is One!

  89. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    Healing Balm says we can not have godliness without God. Truth is we could not have life without God. No one can breathe without God as He is most importantly the breath of life for all. All of creation is dependent upon God for sustenance. Truthfully, our life is not our own, and when we come to acknowledge this then we are more apt to live the one life in Christ, being conformed to the image and likeness of God. The Son of God came to serve, not to be served and whoever is great among us is our servant. I am ever learning that Christ is my servant, and that the Father serves me through Christ/the Greatest Servant, giving me full advantage to the life and lifestyle that is Gods/His character as it unfolds within/we have this treasure in earthen vessels.

  90. Marilyn Crow,

    Your last post was very well spoken. I agree with it all but in the one statement (c) I wonder how many say the Spirit showed them some symbol that is no more then a mans interpretation.

    Quote: C. The Holy Spirit interprets types, symbols etc in His Word. quote……….

    Take Revelations for instance, there is hundreds of interpretations concerning the symbols and everyone is saying God showed me this is correct. When people discuss these interpretations we have a hundred different opinions. It becomes confusion personified as no one will even consider what someone else is saying in their view.

    I think when people get in this area then we see more of a person’s imagination then what the Bible is saying. We cannot add to or take away from scripture.

    Every word must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. Many try to show “America” is mentioned in revelations but I just don’t see it. Oh maybe a type as it is included in “all nations”.

    What I am saying is some people think America is the center of the universe and they think God needs America to fulfill His plans. I don’t believe this.

    Any way I did like your post, and this is how I view it as well.

    GaryB

  91. Andrew Aug 31st 2013

    Unless America becomes “Babylon”?

  92. Lightning Storm Aug 31st 2013

    Every SAINT in the OT and NT heard the VOICE OF GOD……
    (even some who were not SAINTS heard the VOICE OF GOD)

    So where does that leave the people today who open a bible and use it as a “crystal ball”???

  93. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    GaryB…”What I am saying is some people think America is the center of the universe and they think God needs America to fulfill His plans. I don’t believe this.”

    Amen and Amen again.
    I even believe that God will is involved in removing the worldwide power of the USA so they are not a factor in what He is doing. America prospered while they were doing His will, following Him and giving Him glory. When the nation quit doing this, and primarily the church within the nation quit doing this, the nation will fall from power.

  94. Hi All,

    I come across the cult of nice regulary and its growing,
    Its found with the hypergrace followers (known as Antinomianisn in the past) and is on a massive resergence .

    Some of common sayings of the cult of nice include…
    “God is love”
    “Dont judge”
    ” were in different times now”
    ” were not under the law”
    ” love the sinner hate the sin”

    At the face of it they might sound good sayings but dig deeper and the theology behind them is not what the truth but twisted to……..

    “God (is only ) love (so no one will end up in hell)”
    “Dont judge (judgements unloving)”
    “were in different times now (so it doesnt apply in our mordern world)”
    ” were not under the law ( we are free to do as we please) ”
    ” love the sinner hate the sin ( because if we love them you can’t tell doing anything wrong)

    Regards,

    Grant

  95. 100% Zululander Aug 31st 2013

    Thanks for you honesty Sandra. I would also like your study if available.
    Inspired you said: I do not keep any of His commandments. He keeps them through me.
    Inspired that means then if I don’t obey His commands it’s His fault, not mine….something like the grace thing, except it’s not just ok if I sin, it’s now His fault for not keeping His commands through me!!!!!???

    You then said: I am ever learning that Christ is my servant, and that the Father serves me through Christ/the Greatest Servant,
    That begs belief. You are indeed inspired, but by whom?
    I hope I have completely misunderstood you

  96. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    100% Zululander,
    It is not I who live but Christ lives in me. He orders my steps. Can you keep the commandments Zululander all by yourself? If you can you are amazing.

  97. 100% Zululander Aug 31st 2013

    Can you keep the commandments Zululander all by yourself? If you can you are amazing.

    No I Can’t but as you say….He helps me, thats His grace.
    He commands me to do it so I am obedient & I do it by His grace, but I DO IT & if I don’t then I am disobedient.
    Like you say, He orders my steps & I obey.
    Ever hear of the pianist that was congratulated on how well she played the piano & she very spiritually said “oh it’s not me. it’s the Lord” she was immediately asked “who was it that made the one mistake I heard in the recital, you or the Lord”?
    You see inspired, if you take the Lords working in you too far the Lord has to end up your servant & He is not, He is your Lord & we are His servants. Like the grace story, take it too far & sin has no consequence.
    We die TO OURSELVES & live by grace unto Him. ie we don’t serve ourselves any more, we serve Him, not our will but His etc.
    You do have the right idea but have just gone a tad too far with it.
    Be Blessed

  98. Pilate asked Jesus “What is Truth?”

    Many today don’t know what truth is and believe the traditions of men and follow the lusts of their darkened hearts and minds, but Jesus answered the question for us clearly in the scriptures.

    “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    “They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.”

    Do you have His word abiding in you? If you love Him you will OBEY what He commanded, pretty simple, but not applied by multitudes of professing Christians and mocked by the world who has forgotten God.

    “The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten; The expectation of the poor shall not perish forever. Arise, O Lord, Do not let man prevail; Let the nations be judged in Your sight. Put them in fear, O Lord, That the nations may know themselves to be but men.”

  99. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    Oh I see Zululander– I have gone too far to depend on Him? If I depend on Him then it must be Him who serves me.
    Let’s see–the prodigal son/backslider leaves home to have his own life, and messes up, and starts on the way back home. His Father/provider sees him coming and runs out to greet him, gives to him the signet ring, the fatted calf, best robe and shoes etc… How forgiving and full of love is the Father who loves the son, who was willing to be a servant, but instead was restored.

  100. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    Inspired and Zululander…
    could you both please give an explanation of your doctrines.
    Let me give a scenario and if your would, please give your explanations.

    A Christian man is in the the local Home Improvement Store shopping for items for his church building. A beautiful young lady walks by, wearing a very short skirt and low-cut top. This man knows about resisting temptation, but still he takes a second glance at the girl.
    Is this sin? Did he lust? What is the leading of the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus make a mistake and lead wrong? What is grace in this situation?
    Please explain.

  101. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    In other words…
    How does Jesus live through us?
    What exactly happens when we fail?
    Did Jesus fail?

    Inspired…are you living a perfect sinless life?
    Are all Christians living a perfect sinless life? If not, why are you doing better than them, if they also have Christ living in them?
    Zululander…”He commands me to do it so I am obedient & I do it by His grace, but I DO IT & if I don’t then I am disobedient.
    What is the result of disobedience.

  102. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    Donald,
    Let me ask you something. Can a person admire someones beauty without having lust in their heart?
    If there is lust it just means there is overcoming to occur.
    If the woman is wearing a short skirt to draw attention to herself in a seductive manner, then she has overcoming to occur. Yet there is grace for the situation.

  103. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    Donald,
    When I follow the Holy Spirits leading then I do not sin. But when I do things without asking His way, then I do and judgment comes. His judgment is one of correcting my errors or deliverance. Of His mercy I am not condemned.

  104. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    Inspired… the issue is not the heart condition of the woman, but the lust of the man. Did he fail in taking a second glance?
    If so, how is this not sin, and how is Jesus leading him?
    The main point is this, if you consider yourself to be sinless, because Jesus is living through you, then isn’t that the same situation with all born again believers who have Jesus living in them?
    I cannot understand the idea of Jesus living perfectly in us, yet we are not living perfect lives.

  105. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    Along with that, why then are there many scriptures commanding us to walk in obedience, and also references to some who were scolded for walking as the gentiles walk? Is Jesus not living His life through these people?

  106. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    I can not understand why people expect all people to be perfect the minute they meet Christ– just that quick we are to all become perfect– no allowance for growth.
    Were you born a full grown man, or did you start out a baby and grow up. The same is true for children of God.
    Sure they may know something is not right, but yet have they been delivered. Do they have constant communion with the Father or just when they get in trouble?

  107. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    Inspired… this explanation is not in accordance with your statement..
    “I do not keep any of His commandments. He keeps them through me.”
    Are you saying you have matured to perfection, and now Jesus lives a perfect life through you, resulting in you living perfect?

  108. Inspired Aug 31st 2013

    Donald,
    When I follow the Holy Spirits leading then I do not sin. But when I do things without asking His way, then I do and judgment comes. His judgment is one of correcting my errors or deliverance. Of His mercy I am not condemned.
    Communion with the Father keeps us from sinning.

  109. DonaldN Aug 31st 2013

    So, I see it that you and Zululander are both saying the same thing, only in slightly different terms.
    We are the ones who DO the actions, according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the key. When we fail, it is because we did not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in that circumstance. In that case, God’s mercy steps in and we are forgiven and move on to continue (hopefully) in obedience.

  110. Claudia Aug 31st 2013

    As to “babylon”…….All the world will experience YHWH’s Wrath….this time it will be the entire world….not just one city or one nation alone. In fact it is very possible that Jerusalem will be considered by YHWH to be the Babylonian city according to many scriptures. Scripture defines the Babylonian city in Rev. 17, as the Whore who sits upon the Beast….which is symbolic of her having been carried and supported by the Beast throughout history…right up to the end times. The Bible is not about America….it is about the Middle East, and it cumulated in Jerusalem with the sacrifice of Our Savior, Yeshua.

    America has not closed her doors to the Babylonian taint…she shares in the guilt.

    I just cannot understand why some center their sights on America alone….when all the liberalism was first supported and spread from Europe (and….where did it come from before it reached Europe?). The false “enlightenment of the dragon”(flood waters) came home with America’s troops who were exposed to same….as also did electricity spread the Babylonian lack of standards world wide….their “everything is ok philosophy” throughout the world….and history clearly shows it did not start in America. Back in the 60′s it was considered cool to have a “European mindset” of free love, and acceptance of all perversions. This attitude which is babylonian did not originate in America….America did not give birth to it. Yes….America nourished it and it flourished here after the wars. The Bible is clear that “BABYLON” is the “mother” of these things. So, look elsewhere for the roots, not in America.

    Consider the world financial institutions and their historical origins and those who prosper within them….the global financial “mountain” which already exists and controls the world (whether you are aware of it or not). The Federal Reserve, The United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the WTO, and those who stand within them, etc. Not just American citizens control these institutions that are fornicating with the world. The WHORE (city) who sits upon the Beast is decked in riches and drinks from a gold cup.

    Have you considered the middle eastern oil that all the world partakes of…..and the muslim and Judean religion, and all religions that all the world partakes of which denies the deity of Yeshua?

    Consider the city of Jerusalem when the false one takes it over? How many false religions have owned her? Check your history…starting with the Jebusites who were there along with the giants when Moses led his people to the promised land. The Jebusites were the first, followed by the next four in order: Judaism, Babylon, MedioPersian, and Greece. Rome was the 6th who ruled when John received Revelation. The 7th coming was the Ottoman Empire(Muslim rule).

    At the beginning of the Wrath coming….the one who makes desolate is standing within her. YHWH says to flee from her when this happens. Why would YHWH tell people to flee out of Jerusalem if it were safe to stay there??? He knows it is at this time that the last trump sounds and the Vial Wrath starts. Consider how YHWH told the one prophet in the old testament to marry a whore. Why??? Because Jerusalem had turned into a whore. Consider these scriptures;

    Dan 9:24 SEVENTY sevens (Jewish sacred years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (There is no doubt this later day 70 years is concerning Israel and Jerusalem. Their transgression is not over, they have to finish it, make reconciliation for their iniquity…..and this happens just before Yeshua returns. Probably they finally recognize the false god who stands in their temple.) Rev 11:8 And their (the two witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jerusalem) Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Rome sits on seven hills. Jerusalem sits on seven mountains. None of the major cities of America sit on seven mountains.) Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. (Jerusalem) Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! (Jerusalem)

    There are many candidates out there for the title: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. More than likely it is concerning a false religious institution in combination with the world financial system….one who will come forth proclaiming to be our god and creator. Possibly the maitreya of India, or the one that the Iranian’s are waiting for which comes out of the well? Or possibly when he comes he will satisfy all religions who are not waiting for Yeshua…when he stands in the Temple of Jerusalem declaring his godhead. Bottom-line…..which city does he stand in when he makes his declaration??? Than …….Joel 3: 13-17…says it all.

    “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD ALSO shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.”

    Notice the scripture says ALSO. After the first 6 trumpets sound in the middle east, the triumphant antichrist false god roars from Jerusalem his false message first….setting into motion the appointed time when Yeshua descends onto mount Zion gathering his 144,000 around Him, and starts the WRATH, as the 7th trumpet sounds.

  111. Claudia Aug 31st 2013

    Revelation 17:
    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth; (In the literal sense….Rome sits on seven hills. Jerusalem sits on seven mountains. None of the major cities of America sit on seven mountains. However the revelation goes on to say there are also 7 kings, and it could be that the mountains are symbols of governmental reigns….kingdoms that Jerusalem has sat upon in her history.) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, (Jebusites, Judaism, Babylonian, MedioPersians, Greece ) and one is, (the Roman Empire…the 6th…when John received his revelation) and the other is not yet come (The future muslim Ottoman Empire, which Turkey was part of would be the 7th) ; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (During the rule of the Ottoman Empire, the Catholic JESUIT ORDER from1099-1187…88 yrs. was inserted; and than at the end the UN took over the land where Jerusalem sits….than the land surrounding Jerusalem was given to the Israeli’s by the UN, and to this day Jerusalem and Israel’s authority, itself, is in dispute by the muslims……so the 8th king has not yet come to Jerusalem…..unless the UN is considered the 8th king.) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven (muslim Ottoman Empire), and goeth into perdition. (One possibility is that the “beast” comes and takes over Jerusalem from the UN or muslim occupation after the coming trumpet wars…..and being the eighth and going into perdition, identifies him as satan, not just the antichrist, especially since he has also been described as coming out of the bottomless pit..and it was said about him that he “who was and is not”.) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, (during the Wrath) and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Sure sounds “global” to me….not America alone! Also sounds like the waters spewed forth from the dragon’s mouth.) And the ten horns (kings) which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (city), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (These 10 horn/kings are the ones that are given authority with the Beast.) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (What great city…not nation… will rule over the kings of the earth in the future??? Where is the “beast” going to reside when he comes….according to scriptures??? This same beast who has always supported the Babylonian way??? Would not that be the city which rules over the kings??? Along the same line of thought…..does not that little city of Jerusalem already cause the entire earth concern??? What happens when she is occupied by the “beast”, the one who causes desolation???

    Go figure!

  112. Claudia Aug 31st 2013

    DonaldN; I would agree with you regarding America not being a power in what is to come.

    However…..our leaders may orchestrate something to deliberately cause Israel harm….I hope not….but I don’t like what I am seeing right now concerning our president wanting to launch missles into Syria. The will of the people of America and the will of our leadership are on a great disconnect right now.

  113. Claudia Sep 1st 2013

    DonaldN;
    you might want to consider the entire scripture of 1st Tim 2: 8-12, and on into Tim. 3…. which is illustrates that Paul is writing concerning how Paul would have one behave in the house of YHWH while they are gathering to learn and pray…..and he advises them to not pray with wrath and doubting, and in like manner the women should be modest and not harlot like,….and by no means does Paul allow the woman to usurp the authority over a man at a gathering, but she should do her learning in silence during those occassions. He is also saying that “he” does not allow a woman to teach. He very clearly is owning that statement and preference….not saying it came from YHWH.

    I have found that Paul is always very clear about whether it is his preference, or whether he is speaking for YHWH. In the above, Paul is stating his preference.

    Please show me where Yeshua has stated the same thing. I would appreciate that very much.

    1st Timothy 2: 8-12 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    1st Timothy 3:14-15 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  114. Averyl Sep 1st 2013

    Claudia, – just what I’ve been thinking, Israel would get the backlash if the US launches missiles into Syria.

    Inspired, – True, we must allow for growth. I think that’s why we see Paul apparently contradicting himself at times. Women keeping quiet vs. no male nor female; having Timothy circumcised to please the Jews vs. berating Peter for setting himself apart etc..
    Paul said he had not yet attained, & neither have any of us arrived at the full stature! We continue to grow.

    Even though Christ indwells us, we are still as wretched as Paul was, not quite there in the flesh!

  115. Claudia Sep 1st 2013

    Paul was looked to for instructions….by his followers…..and he had every right to state his beliefs as to how the gatherings should be ran. If I was in one of his gatherings…..I would for sure respect his wishes and comply with them.

  116. Hi ,

    Jesus says in Matthew 28:19-20
    “Go, make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”.

    Notice two words ” disciples” and “observe”.
    Both indicate discipline, following and observance of Jesus’s ways and instructions.
    Jesus forfilled the righteous requirement of the law as the only one who was without sin, makeing all that turn away from sin to Him as Lord and Saviour right before God.
    The law has not been done away with it still exists to convict the unrighteous of sin so that they may be saved.
    If they say they dont sin then God says they lie.
    We have all sinned … to the adulter (which we all are, because we have played the whore with the world) having been spared from stoneing by Jesus’s intervention , He says “go and sin no more”.
    As the Lord warns in the last days men and women will harden their hearts…… isn’t that the searing of the conscience through sin.
    We need to constantly walk in forgiveness….. that is to personally forgive and to experience personal forgiveness from God when we repent of sin”.
    God says ” GO AND SIN NO MORE” because He has made us able to by His grace if we willfully chose to.
    The inward nature was changed completely when we were born again but the outward man needs to be renewed daily.
    Choice was not taken back at the cross , for “to choose thee this day whom you will serve” can cry out even daily to all of us in this world which increaseingly seeks devotion.
    The one you love the most you will serve the most, for he who is forgiven much loves much.
    Gods grace doesn’t allow a way for sin but points to another way.
    Press into Gods Word and be washed from the filthy ways of the world.

    God bless,

    Grant

    J

  117. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    Averyl,
    I do not see where Paul contradicted himself with the woman issue.
    He states, did the word come to you only? The word is Christ, and does He come only to the male of the species?
    However what Father showed me is that the soul/human nature is the female and does need to be quiet in the church, and not just the building, as we are the church. The Christ nature or divine nature is what seeds the female/soul that the two become one and then can come forth the children/words/thoughts/inspiration that are divine and not of this world.
    As for Pauls writings, I can see some things that would suggest his growth, and as you stated he had not reached it yet, but pressed on.

  118. Hi Averyl and Inspired,

    Whow…You will fall into error when you start looking at what Paul teaches subject to your belief of how far Paul had grown in the faith (he had authority as an Apostle).
    It could be taken that you are demeaning Gods Word on the premise it came through imperfect men, and therefore possibly imperfect …which is extremely dangerous.
    If that is true then eventually a person will succome to the temptation of believeing they have more or addition revelation than the Bible.
    When the Apostles say I speak as of the Lord and not of themselves they meant it… the words were from God.
    Paul is carefull to express in the scriptures and often qualifys when it is his comments or his counsell rather than Gods…. check and see.
    The mandate “don’t add to or take away from the scriptures lest you be accursed ” is a strong statement said for good reason in the last book of the Bible because it stands for all time, and to us who are living in the end times that the book of revelation is speaking about even more so.
    Everywhere people claim new dubious revelations that are not new at all, but really ancient lies repackaged for the mordern age, for those that know no better.
    As the Lord says, theres nothing new under the sun.
    Satan will always seek to undermine the authority of the scriptures, Sowing seeds of doubt about the scriptures in any shape or form isn’t a work of faith and does not come from God.
    Watch lest you fall into temptation.
    Paul says “even if I come to you with a Jesus other than the Jesus I have preached, or another Holy Spirit which is not another, reject it.”
    Paul knew how easy it is for any one to stray …. walk on the narrow path and reject the foolish traditions and fables of today falsely paradeing themselves as knowledge or even faith (not of the biblical kind).

    Regards,

    Grant

  119. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    AMEN ! ….Inspired

    QUOTE
    “When I follow the Holy Spirits leading then I do not sin. But when I do things without asking His way, then I do and judgment comes. His judgment is one of correcting my errors or deliverance. Of His mercy I am not condemned.
    Communion with the Father keeps us from sinning.”
    UNQUOTE

  120. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    There is a difference between INIQUITY and SIN.

    SIN is referring to WORD, THOUGHT, or DEED.

    INIQUITY is referring to the SOURCE of all SIN, which is the SIN NATURE/SOUL/FLESH.

  121. Marilyn Crow Sep 1st 2013

    Gary B

    Thank you for your encouragement. I do agree with you concerning people having their own interpretations of God`s types, symbols etc. That is why I wrote –

    C. The Holy Spirit interprets types, symbols etc in His word.

    I think you may have misunderstood me. The Holy Spirit interprets, explains a symbol etc Himself in other parts of the word & also enlarges on the subject. For example – (& many of these you would know but others might not)

    The Rock – is Christ Jesus in His strength & as a stronghold.
    (Ps. 19: 14 Rom. 9: 33)
    We either run into Christ for protection or run up against Him.

    The Lamb – is Christ Jesus represented as the innocent sacrifice.
    (Rev. 5: 6 Is. 53: 7)

    The woman clothed with the sun, moon, 12 stars is representative of Christ`s scriptural history. (Rev. 12: 1 & 2, Gen. 37: 9 & 10)
    Israel`s king & ruler over the nations. (Rev. 12 : 5, Rev. 19: 15,
    Is. 9: 6)

    The Mighty angel – is Christ Jesus represented in angelic form as the Mediator of the Covenant.
    (Rev. 10: 1, 5 & 6, Deut. 32: 40, Dan. 12: 7, Mal. 3: 1)

    Note symbols, types etc are Holy Spirit explained & point to Christ & His purposes. All are centred around who Christ is & His great purposes for the 3 groups – the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations.

    All are helping us as the Apostle Paul says to `know Him,` more. That is where our conversation needs to be & I am very glad you agree & we that we are discussing this together, Gary.

    Marilyn.

  122. Marilyn Crow Sep 1st 2013

    The topic of Babylon & the 7 mountains has been brought up & it is a good example of what is God`s Truth & what is man`s opinions.

    What does the Bible tell us?

    Babylon is a city. (Rev. 17: 4 & 18)
    It is the Religious & economic centre of the Global Government.
    (Rev. 17 & 18)
    It is referred to a `fallen, fallen,` in the two aspects – Religious & Economic.
    The Political aspect with the Anti-Christ & the world`s armies will be dealt with when Christ comes in power & great glory.
    (Rev. 19: 11 – 21)

    Where is Babylon situated?

    The Anti-Christ, the Global leader is called -
    The Assyrian – (Iraq, Syria & Jordan) (Is. 31: 8)
    The King of Babylon. (Is. 14: 4)
    Babylon is in Iraq. (being built by the UN.)
    Therefore Babylon in Iraq will be the Global Centre of the World Government.

    What are the 7 mountains?

    Now people conjecture & give various opinions on Babylon saying it is on these 7 mountains, but they are interpreting the scripture themselves & not reading what the Holy Spirit`s interpretation.

    The Holy Spirit says that the 7 mountains are 7 kings. (Rev. 17: 9 & 10 NIV) 7 kings, leaders of the Global Government. The Holy Spirit tells us that in the time written about, during the first part of the tribulation, that 5 leaders/kings would have come & gone & one is ruling while the 7th has yet to come.

    So clearly the Global Government will have 7 leaders in succession. The 7th leader/king will be the Anti-Christ & be possessed by Satan (the 8th but part of the 7 leaders) he will rule for 3 1/2 years, during the last part of the tribulation. (Rev. 13: 5)

    The Holy Spirit as you can see is very clear about what He wants to say & what His symbols represent & does not leave it up to us to guess, fill the gap etc.

    Our God is not the author of confusion or speculation but of clarity & understanding & TRUTH.

    Marilyn.

  123. GaryB Sep 1st 2013

    Marilyn,
    I had heard years ago that the city of Babylon was being rebuilt in Iraq. Do you have proof or any documentation on this subject of the rebuilding of Babylon that I can look at?

    Don’t want to get off from the main theme of this article but was interested.

    GaryB

  124. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    Grant,
    Please know that I inquire of the Lord what he meant in the scriptures, and try to learn from the Hebrew mindset.
    The word of the Lord is tried 7 times, so there are revelations to the passages. Also notice Jesus, who spoke one way to the pharisees, another way to the masses, another way to His disciples and yet still another way to John who leaned upon His breast.
    The fire of God will burn out the dross, so I welcome His fire, so that I am not saving my life but losing it.
    If God speaks through a woman then it is God speaking and not a woman, if He speaks through a donkey then it is still God speaking, so one should not limit the breath of life but take it to the Lord.
    By the way, wisdom is referred to as a woman, and wisdom teaches.

  125. watchful Sep 1st 2013

    I’ve been away and just catching up…..The Cult of Nice……cult is exactly the right word. That spirit that has been spreading around the world is an oppressive cultish spirit that doesn’t allow for any kind of disagreement about anything. There is subtle intimidation behind it. To express disagreement has become taboo. And since the church has become like the world, it has spread to the church. No more exhorting and rebuking allowed. No more just speaking your mind. No more simple truth. Shhhhhhhhh! They have made God into a new age god, made after man’s new age image. Only allowed to speak the new age party line now…..people are being prepared to accept and welcome what is coming. Notice that the ONLY thing people are allowed to disagree with, oppose and mock is biblical truth.

  126. GaryB Sep 1st 2013

    So very true, watchful. No one wants to hear about the Bible and what it says anymore. They don’t want God in their thoughts but everything that reeks of entertainment and what is accepted by society.

    Public opinion and the media is being used by the devil to silence Churches in this country.

    In NT times it cost John the Baptist his life for speaking out about Herod’s sin. But what is this life in the light of eternity.

    GaryB

  127. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Since the woman issue is not over, I still have to say that in all my years I have never heard an explanation of the scripture, 1 Tim 2:12.
    It is always explained away as to why it does not mean what it says, but never have I heard why it is there, and what it actually does mean, if not what it says.

    1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    BTW.. Paul did not explain that it is a cultural issue for the place and time, but rather explained why it is to be that way in the next 2 verses.

    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

  128. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Could it be that if this scripture does mean just what it says, that there are an abundance of women who are being rebellious against God because they want to say what they want to say and no man is going to tell them to keep silent?
    If I were told by God to keep silent, what would I do?
    There is also much talk on the subject of OBEDIENCE.
    Perhaps we should put the two subjects together.

  129. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    Why then did Joel say that your sons and daughters will prophesy?
    1Cor. 14:31 Paul says we can ALL prophesy one by one–that is the New Testament Church where all get to participate.

  130. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Actually, Claudia gave an explanation that it is Paul’s own personal opinion and not God’s.
    That would mean that every time we see in Paul’s writing that he used the reference “I” that it means that part is not an inspired word from the Holy Spirit.
    I choose to believe that the entire Bible is inspired.

  131. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Inspired…
    once again, explaining that it does not mean what it says, but not explaining what it does mean,

  132. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    By the way…
    would you all rather that I just agree that it is OK for women to teach so I don’t open up a can of worms.

    Would that be nice?

  133. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    Bless you Donald. I have been through the fire of this very thing and am satisfied with what He has revealed to me.

  134. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    BTW,
    I will agree with you that the woman/soul should not teach, but the spirit of God in mankind should be allowed to do so.

  135. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Inspired…
    Would the Spirit of God go against His own Word and speak through a woman when He has spoken that a woman should not speak?

  136. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    The word says the spirit of a prophet is subject to the prophet. God doesn’t take over your body and speak through you.
    BTW,..teaching and prophesying are two different issues, the word says
    1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach,

    it doesn’t say not to prophesy.

  137. Inspired Sep 1st 2013

    Would God speak through the soul, soulishness? no
    I told you I have been through the fire on this one, and I will stand.

    proph·e·cy (prf-s)
    n. pl. proph·e·cies (-sz)
    1.
    a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
    b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
    c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
    2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
    3. A prediction.

    Inspired uttering is not predicting but is speaking revelation of scripture.

    Nonetheless if it pleases you I will cease and desist my correspondence with you, and ask the Father to bless you.

  138. 100% Zululander Sep 1st 2013

    I’m asking the same question Donald asked Inspired. For an explanation on the verses in Timothy. A seeming contradiction in another verse is not really an answer.

  139. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Inspired.. I certainly do not wish for you to stop corresponding with me on this issue. I do wish for a settling of the issue.
    You gave a definition of “prophesy”
    I just said it is OK for a woman to prophesy.
    This is not teaching.
    Let me ask further,
    Is it OK for a woman to be a pastor of a Church?
    OK for a woman to be a bishop or a deacon?
    These are all positions in the natural realm, to serve the Lord while we exist in this body.
    God has set His order.
    Is it OK for women to be in these positions?

  140. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    If I may give my own explanation…
    The issue of women and men is representative of Christ and the Church.
    We all, as the bride of Christ, should learn to keep silent when Christ is speaking to us. We should learn from Him. We should be totally, 100% subject to Him.
    This is why the Holy Spirit established the “rule” of women within the Church (in the natural realm).
    It is symbolic of all of us being subject to Christ.
    If a woman is not subject to her husband, or if she oversteps her calling (boundaries) then she is doing the same thing as many “christians” in overstepping their calling and establishing their own teaching, which has led to many of the false doctrines that we are discussing on this forum these days (such as drunkeness, prosperity, etc.)
    It is not a shame for a woman to not teach. It is not a shame for a woman to obey and be subject to her husband. It is not a shame for a man to not teach. Many men should not be teaching either. The doctrine of man comes from uninspired teaching.
    If I am called to a ministry of works, and not to pastor or teach or to prophesy, then my obedience to God will receive a greater reward than if I preached the greatest sermon ever.
    A woman who accepts the Word and chooses to not teach, or speak (out of place), will receive a reward for her obedience.
    As for women not speaking at all in any setting, I don’t believe this is true. They have their place. Let them find what God truly has for them to do, and to whom they are to speak and teach. I just don’t believe this is in a Church setting or group teaching.
    We all should do what God says to do.

  141. 100% Zululander Sep 1st 2013

    What is truth? Well it’s certainly not facts, even correct facts/doctrine.
    Truth is a person, we mustn’t forget that & that person is life. Truth is His life. I have truth when I live out His life. Nearly the whole world knows much of the facts about the Lord Jesus & whats in the bible, but don’t know the truth…Him. To know Him is life eternal. Two most misunderstood words in the bible… believe & know, space doesn’t permit explanation.
    The only truth I have is the truth I live. The rest is just information…facts. Good info. But nothing changes us until I, buy His grace (ability) live it. Living His truth sets me free, not knowing it intellectually.
    To properly understand we need to know 3 things Truth, grace & faith. (please be patient)
    Heb11: Faith is substance & evidence. The expression (evidence & substance) of faith is works, according to James. No works means no faith. Not the kind of faith the Lord delivered to the saints anyway. Any other kind of faith is just humanistic hope or wishful thinking that will disappoint.
    So, works is the life of otherwise dead faith, they go together….James
    As with truth & facts. Truth is the life of “dead” facts. When I, by the grace of God do what the facts say, by the ability God gives (grace) it becomes truth to me….life, His life, & that life makes me free. Christ in me is Christ living in me expressed in what He does in & through me. Sometimes called walking in the Spirit.(at this point you need to have read Andrews book on the sinners prayer to better understand). Christ in me doesn’t mean I asked Jesus into my life at some time, that’s unbiblical nonsense.
    So, as works is the “life” of our otherwise dead faith, truth is the life of our otherwise dead facts. Because Christ is the only truth there is & His life is LIFE & the only real life there is, not facts.
    Grace is a verb & don’t confuse mercy with grace. Everywhere the bible says grace, write “ God’s ability” & you will see. Where sin abounds, grace (Gods ability to not sin) more abounds. Paul ministered by the grace (ability) God gave him. Heb: Come to the throne of grace to find mercy & grace TO HELP in time of need. We need grace to help me not to do what I need mercy for.
    Grace is ALWAYS an action on Gods part. I am saved by grace, Gods ability, what He does in me, not what I do. OT saints knew this & every time God said they found favor /grace in His sight, God did something for them or they asked God for something.
    Unmerited favor is God doing something. Favor is pointless if it’s not active to accomplish something.
    I live BY grace. It’s Called walking in the spirit.
    The law didn’t bring the ability to keep it, that was it’s failing. The Lord Jesus brought Grace & Truth. Grace, God’s ability/power to keep it.
    NT covenenant “I will write my laws & commands on your heart & cause (that’s grace) you to walk in them.
    GRACE TO WALK IN HIS TRUTH. That’s the crux of the difference between the OT & NT. That’s what the Lord Jesus brought. We have no excuse to sin
    This is a big subject & I have given the bones & hope you can make sense of it.
    Even walking in the spirit or doing what God says as some posts have said does not mean I will do it perfectly. Imperfect people will not behave or do perfectly. You decide where sin starts or ends in that. To me it’s irrelevant.
    Be Blessed

    Inspired, by quoting another seeming contradictory scripture doesn’t answer the question Donald asked about the verse in timothy

  142. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Titus 2: 1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
    2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
    3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

  143. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    Just looking up the definition of these words in the Greek explains the scripture of 1 Tim 2:12 to my satisfaction.

    The words SUBJECT and SUBMIT do NOT imply OBEDIENCE TO ANY PERSON.

    These words are referring to an ATTITUDE….an ATTITUDE of putting TRUST AND OBEDIENCE INTO JESUS, THE MESSIAH, and NOT ARGUMENTATIVE, QUARRELING, or in an ATTITUDE OF RESISTANCE with men and women around us. Does not mean we OBEY THEM….but we allow them the FREEDOM TO DISOBEY THE WILL OF GOD OR OBEY THE WILL OF GOD WITHOUT ARGUMENTS OR QUARRELS.

    We give OBEDIENCE to our HEAD, JESUS CHRIST, and HONOR, LOVE, AND A GENTLE SPIRIT to those around us….whether they are in OBEDIENCE to Jesus Christ or not.

    This scripture talks about a WOMAN NOT HAVING AN ATTITUDE THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, RESISTANT, OR QUARRELING with HER HUSBAND.
    Which there are other verses who COMMAND THE MEN TO GO AND HAVE THIS SAME ATTITUDE IN THEM.

    1 Tim 2:12 says “THE” man………not MEN IN GENERAL OR “A” man. This is referring to THE WOMAN’S HUSBAND……according to context AND Vine’s.

    THE MAN that the woman is BOUND TO…..as Eve was BOUND TO ADAM…..Eve was not BOUND TO ALL MEN….NEITHER ARE ALL WOMEN BOUND TO ALL MEN. Neither are ALL MEN BOUND TO ALL WOMEN.

    We are BOUND to the Trinity by FAITH, OBEDIENCE, LOVE.
    WE ARE BOUND TO ALL CREATION BY LOVE, NOT BY OBEDIENCE OR FAITH.

    The words BE SILENT, refers to “MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS….when it comes to the WALK OF YOUR HUSBAND”. (or wife in other passages of scripture)

    This is a very POWERFUL ACT for either wife or husband…..TO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS IN AN ATTITUDE OF QUIET SUBMISSION AND OBEDIENCE TO JESUS CHRIST.
    Because a wife or a husband is THEN IN LINE with the WILL OF GOD AND STAYING OUT OF THE WAY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT’S PERSONAL DEALINGS WITH THAT SPOUSE OR CHILD.

    In other words, they are going OVER THEIR SPOUSES’ HEADS TO A HIGHER AUTHORITY (Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit) to bring that spouse or child into OBEDIENCE TO THE WILL OF GOD.

    VERY VERY POWERFUL!! Watch out when your SPOUSE becomes QUIET AND PRAYERFUL, RATHER than “discussing” the subject to death!

    Watch out when your spouse says “DO AS YOU PLEASE….I AM NOT TO JOIN WITH YOU IN THIS MATTER”!!!

  144. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    G435 ἀνήρ (anēr) Definition: a man
    Word Origin: a prim. word NASB Translation: brethren*(13), gentlemen(1), husband(39), husbands(13), man(71), man’s(2), men(70), virgin*(1).

    This greek word in 1 Tim 2:12 for “man” was used throughout the gospels and Acts, referring to men in general.
    (the article “a” or “the” is not in the greek)

    Although I do agree with the general idea of your statement, that the woman should be under authority to her husband, as the Church is to Christ.

  145. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    Donald ….you missed the Vine’s where it states the usage of the word within the individual scripture.

    None of this “IN GENERAL”….God’s words are precise.

  146. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    this is how my Vines establishes the word MAN in 1Tim 2:12

    NT:435
    2. aner NT:435) is never used of the female sex; it stands
    (a) in distinction from a woman, Acts 8:12; 1 Tim 2:12;
    as a husband, Matt 1:16; John 4:16; Rom 7:2; Titus 1:6;
    (b) as distinct from a boy or infant, 1 Cor 13:11;
    metaphorically in Eph 4:13; …….

    I welcome your correction.
    I truly desire to know the absolute truth.

  147. Didn’t Paul write these scriptures as well?

    1 Cor 14:37-38

    “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

    Inspired – Our souls have no gender, that’s why the scriptures tell us IN CHRIST we are one. Galatians 3:28 was talking about our inner man not being male or female, not that there is no gender recognition or nationality in the church, of course there is!

    Galatians 3:27-28

    “For you are ALL SONS OF GOD through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    Notice Paul said you are ‘all SONS of God’, he did not separate sons of God into male and female because the body is just a tabernacle that houses our soul and spirit and has a gender on this earth.

    Jesus also said that in the resurrection we would be like the angels of Heaven who have no gender. They are spirit beings or ministering spirits.

    Matthew 22:28-30

    “Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.” Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.”

    DonaldN said:

    “Is it OK for a woman to be a pastor of a Church? OK for a woman to be a bishop or a deacon? These are all positions in the natural realm, to serve the Lord while we exist in this body. God has set His order. Is it OK for women to be in these positions?”

    Search the NT scriptures and see if there was any female that was an overseer of any of the churches in the first century.

    It is NOT ok for a woman to be a pastor, an apostle, teacher, or evangelist according to the scriptures.

  148. Claudia Sep 1st 2013

    DonaldN……Ponder this:

    Yeshua stated that He did not take one thing from the law. And Deuteronomy 23: 1-2 states “He who is emascualted by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the congregation of the LORD. One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the LORD; even to the tenth generation of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the congregation of the LORD.

    DonaldN, if you are following the law…..are you also going to adhere to this one? Are you going to prevent these described from attending your congregation, and follow them for 10 generations?

    DonaldN….where in scripture does it say that the entire Bible…as we know it today….after the councils of man editied it…..is inspired? Where does it say we are to make an “idol” out of the Bible that we have.

    I know that the WORD is inspired….and the WORD is Yeshua. I know that the organized churches of man seeking power over other men have proclaimed that the Bible is inspired….and that written “word” has passed on from man to man. I know that YHWH told us to put our trust in no man. I know that the prophesy from YHWH have been kept safe and transferred down through the ages. I know that Yeshua, when He left us sent the Holy Spirit to be our TEACHER, and to point to the TRUTH….much of which is in the Bible compilations that we now have. I know that the histories of Enoch were left out as were many other histories that were believed in by the original followers of Yeshua in the ancient past. I know that the WORD is not the Bible, nor is the text that is written upon the processed dead trees that make up it’s structure. I know that everyday when I read that which has been put in this Bible that the Holy Spirit teaches me things from it….as does He teach from my observations of humans and His earthly creations. I know that if all Bibles were burn’t, that the Power and Glory that is YHWH and Yeshua would not be diminished one bit…and that all would still be accomplished exactly as YHWH plans. I have memorized His commandments, the Gospel Story of Salvation, and Yeshua’s teachings, and the prophesy recorded within the written pages. Just like in Old Times.

    I know that in Noah’s time, where Enoch was also, and where also were those angels who trespassed with man, and the daughters of man, and also taught them things that YHWH did not want to be taught…..that “writting” was one of those things. YHWH wanted our lives to be the reflection of His WORD….human to human, relationship to relationship….action upon action……not word to eye…to brain.

    Yeshua came to add grace to the law, and the Holy Spirit comes to add understanding. I know that Yeshua’s name was not Jesus Christ. The “Christ” was added by the Romans…..as was Easter instead of Passover, because they were ashamed of the Jewish gatherings, that were prescribed by YHWH.

    What have I said that is not true? I do want to learn.

  149. Andrew Sep 1st 2013

    Claudia – you have imbibed “Hebrew Roots” teaching of an extreme and harmful kind. Sadly this has made you deceived.

    Sad.

    -Andrew Strom

  150. Averyl Sep 1st 2013

    Oh dear, this debate brings back memories from when I had issues with Paul being a woman hater!
    None of the disciples of Jesus were women either.
    I thought He has given us freedom from such petty legalism!
    There must be situations where this patriarchal mindset is farcical, but others where it should be followed.

    We must remember that Paul wrote these letters during a time of transition, though he doesn’t specifically say that. We do know he was keen not to offend the religious customs of the day by having Timothy circumcised & shaving his head.
    After the passage about women covering their heads, he finishes by saying that “we have no such custom”.

    I still think that we should be all one in Christ.

  151. Andrew Sep 1st 2013

    Male leadership is such a general rule and so obviously supported throughout Scripture (and even in our very makeup) that we must see it as OBVIOUSLY TRUE.

    Feminism is an utterly anti-biblical theory that is destroying our culture.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  152. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Claudia…
    Jesus came to fulfill the law, and He did. He did not come to add anything to it. Not even grace.
    Now we are under a new covenant, we are to cast out the old, just as the word says referring to the comparison of Hagar and Sarah.
    I am included in the inheritance by faith in the promise of God to Abraham and Jesus. (read Gal 3).
    The law, which came 430 years later cannot annul the promise.

    Concerning the “edited inspired word”… because you don’t follow the written word, nor trust that God is able to protect His word from man, I guess you are free to make any doctrine you want,
    I am not going to follow your teaching because my Bible says the woman was deceived.
    Kind of proves a point here to me.

  153. Andrew Sep 1st 2013

    Sadly I have to agree with you, Donald.

    sad.

    Andrew

  154. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    I’m sorry….but Adam was standing right next to Eve while the serpent was speaking against God!

    What was Adam’s sin?

  155. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Adam’s sin was listening to the voice of the woman instead of obeying God’s word to him. Eating the fruit was the result of his sin, not the sin itself.

  156. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Gen 3:17
    17 Then to Adam He said,”Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
    NKJV

  157. Claudia Sep 1st 2013

    Yes, it is very sad, I agree with that, for sure.

    Those who celebrate Easter with easter eggs? Deny that YHWH never changes, is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Put their faith in man….stand on the word of man….over the word of YHWH? Praising and trusting in the councils of man.

    All will soon be revealed, and those who look towards man will be greatly deceived.

    But….it is nothing to take offense over……all will be revealed…..and some will be prepared to help others when the time comes because they truly go to the Bible for the Truth….not for what man has already determined in his own wisdom and traditions.

  158. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Listening to any voice other than God’s is the primary sin. From this comes all teaching on obedience, holiness, sanctification, etc. If we were to faithfully follow the voice of God in every way, think of how simple life would be, no problems, no mistakes, no sin.
    At least this will be in the Kingdom of God.
    We should work as hard as we can to make it happen on earth too

  159. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Andrew…why is it that difficult to have to agree with me?

    Just Kidding

  160. Claudia Sep 1st 2013

    Adam, partook of what satan offerred, and yes, his wife told him about it. Adam put the word of his wife (and it could have been anyone) over the commandment of YHWH.

    Had Adam been the leader that he was supposed to be….he would have led with YHWH’s word….and obeyed. He would have had the strength to stand on his own two feet and obeyed YHWH.

    But….no….he disobeyed, and than blamed his wife…..”she made me do it LORD!”

    That is sure something to be proud of and point to! I do hope that if your wife tells you that she just saw a snake under the step you are getting ready to step upon, that you will listen to her and not ignore her because she is a woman.

    No one said man is not in authority over woman. But it is Godly authority…..not human authority. If the man is not following YHWH’s will, he has no authority over the woman.

    Sorry if that offends you…..I hope it doesn’t.

  161. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    1 Peter 3:1-2
    3 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
    2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.
    NKJV

  162. Andrew Sep 1st 2013

    Amen

    feminism has no place in Christianity

    -Andrew Strom

  163. Averyl Sep 1st 2013

    Feminism, no. Equal rights, yes.

    What happened to the text saying to submit yourselves to one another in the fear of God?
    Wives can only submit to their husbands up to a point, same as submission to rulers & authority in general. There is a red line we cannot cross!

    Adam was with Eve when she ate the fruit but he didn’t bother to stop her. Now males are still blaming her for sin! God actually blamed the serpent,(Gen.3:14).

  164. Lightning Storm Sep 1st 2013

    AMEN…..Averyl.

  165. DonaldN Sep 1st 2013

    Averyl…”What happened to the text saying to submit yourselves to one another in the fear of God?”

    It is in the Word, right before where it states the order of submission.

    Eph 5:21—-
    Read it in context.

  166. Andrew Sep 1st 2013

    I cannot for the life of me understand all this “Feminism” among Christian people.

    Feminism is utterly anti-Christian.

    Please repent.

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom