THE LONELINESS OF THE CHRISTIAN – A.W. Tozer

The loneliness of the Christian results from his walk with God in an ungodly world, a walk that must often take him away from the fellowship of good Christians as well as from that of the unregenerate world…
   
His God-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of
his kind,
others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his
absorptions in the love of Christ;
and because with his circle of friends there are few who share his
inner experiences, he’s forced to walk alone.
   
The unsatisfied longings of the prophets for human understanding
caused them to cry out in their complaint,
and even our Lord himself suffered in the same way.   

The man (or woman) who has passed on into the divine Presence
in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him.
He finds few who care to talk about that which is the supreme
object of his interest,
so he is often silent and preoccupied in the midst of noisy religious
shoptalk.    
For this he earns the reputation of being dull and over-serious,
so he is avoided,
and the gulf between him and society widens.

He searches for the friends upon whose garments he can detect
the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia out of the ivory palaces,
and finding few or none, he, like Mary of old, keeps these things
in his heart.    

It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His
inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God
what he can find nowhere else.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this below-

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on September 13th, 2013 at 12:00 pm.

274 comments

274 Replies

  1. Aussie Sep 13th 2013

    WOW… Thanks Andrew I needed that.

  2. Beautiful!!!

  3. deryse Sep 13th 2013

    Tortured is his or her soul by the world’s anguish and apparent blindness to their mindless ways.

    Painfully deep are the sobs for our Saviour – we’ll never know what is to shed tears of blood.

  4. Joe Macri, Bucks,UK Sep 13th 2013

    Thats exactly how lonely I feel. No church(can’t find one) and no Jesus loving friends

  5. So true and so poignantly written. Even today in the Body of Christ if your ideas about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus The Christ does not line up with the mainstream Christian community or you have deeper revelation than they, you can be ostracized, rejected and even reviled. If you dare denounce the traditions of men for the truth of God’s word you will find few friends in the modern church. The world is supposed to reject you. You understand why they revile you although it’s a difficult place to be but your brothers and sisters in Christ are often as indignant, malicious and critical as the world, maybe even more. Find solace in knowing as God told Samuel, they are not rejecting you but they were rejecting Me. They rejected the truth of God and His sovereign rule. The prophets and their Thus says the LORD exclamations were always unwelcomed and the Gospel was not tolerated by most. So it is today only more so perhaps. In Hosea 4:6 it says, my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge because they rejected knowledge; not that is wasn’t available to them but because they didn’t want it. So yes, it can get very lonely and we all have an innate need for human companionship and relational intimacy on some level. And that loneliness certainly will drive you closer to God and that’s a good thing. The Bible also says, the gate is strait and the way narrow to everlasting life because few find it. There will only be a remnant who does…a remnant made up of some lonely, rejected and reviled born gain believers. Peace and blessings!

  6. So very true!

  7. I must beg to disagree with Tozer as it is not my experience in Christ. Tozer’s view is closer to the dim picture of me before Jesus found me and picked me out of the gutter..
    A true Christian is separated from the world, yes persecuted, ridiculed, by it yes!
    We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
    But alone ? never!
    A true Christian has a perfect relationship with an in-dwelling Jesus. who has said i will never leave you or forsake you.
    A true Christian drinks of the fountain of life the well of living water and is never again thirsty.
    Instead of feeling sorry for ourselves, lonely, we should be jumping for joy, as the joy of the Lord is our strength.
    I will ask the folk on Sunday “is any one ever lonely since the Lord found you?” and i will get a resounding NO.
    Also i would trust my christian brethren with my life. Halleluiah!. There is a friend that sticks closer that a brother.

    Pr Michael

  8. Thank you so much for this word today. It is just what I needed. I myself have been crying out to the Lord like this, seeing so much back biting in the Body of Christ. Jesus is my source of all in all and all of my joy, but sometimes there is pain in the lack of true fellowship with other believers and finding those for whom He is their all in all.

  9. Having been one of those hippies of the 70’s and being born of the Spirit in the wave of revival…the Jesus movement….I have found that in 39 yrs. of walking out my life as a disciple has been very lonely internally. Right after I became a Christian my husband left as he hated my newly found faith in Christ. I learned as a very young believer what Jesus meant when HE said..”If any man ( woman) will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow ME.” As a result of losing my closest relationship in this world, and having an agnostic mother to live with, I learned the COST of walking with Jesus is that you may not have the comforts of close relationships. On top of that the ones I knew in the body of Christ were all into being blessed in their (external lives) and their was no hunger to know more of the SPIRITUAL life of following Christ. I drew closer and closer to Jesus as my life had more and more of the CROSS internally and I became an avid student, a Berean, out of necessity of the word of God. As I sought the Lord to go deeper….I found fewer and fewer were able to understand or even care about this true life of a disciple….the crucified life. The more I was allowed by the Spirit to know and walk out in my life in Christ…the more I came to realize that for the most part the true message and the true walk of a true disciple were MISSING from the “American Christianity”…..very few have gone beyond being carnal babes because very few have DIED to their lives truly to let Christ LIVE through them by HIS SPIRIT. I do not say this in pride for it has grieved my heart as I have longed for fellowship deeper than the surface issues of churchianity….and the Lord has been gracious to give me OLDER saints throughout my life who KNEW the life that inculded suffering. I am thankful to say that there is a stirring in some of the young ones in this generation that is a longing for more than the hype of charasmatic circus….a longing for CHRIST AND THE TRUTH. A longing for what my generation longed for in the JESUS movement….the TRUE JESUS! May the Lord touch this generation once again with the power and message of what it is to DIE to LIVE…to LOSE your natural life to gain HIS life…and to even know HIM in the fellowship of His sufferings. It is a NARROW way that leads to life and truly there are few that find it…..the way is lonely because we have lived with another Jesus, another gospel, and another Spirit….we LOST the power of the life that is CRUCIFIED in the “American Church”…and we have become like Samson…not even knowing that the SPIRIT has departed…like Sardis….reputation for LIFE but truly dead and living as the world and calling it Christianity. We NEED AWAKENING TO THE TRUTH! Maranatha!

  10. wow, beautiful and moving. thx so much for sharing this.

  11. It is all part of the cost to truly follow Jesus. You must be willing to go where others will not go nor will they understand. Watch this video on following Jesus: http://youtu.be/xm3BJ8az24U

  12. Lizzie Sep 13th 2013

    I echo Aussie’s comment exactly. I’m frequently troubled with great loneliness and often think that if I joined a church again it might be better for me. Maybe even consider going back to the one I left 12 years ago….but whenever I meet anyone from that church I am staggered by what I hear about it, and end up thinking “How could I? I just couldn’t agree with most of what goes on.”

    I married a man who seemed at the time (32 years ago) to believe in the same way as I did. Two years ago we split up for a just under a year, then got back together. By his own admittance he is no longer a believer, and neither are any of our 4 adult children, though I blame myself constantly for that. I believed it was right to get back together, but it’s proving so hard that I wonder if I can go on.

    I know that my beliefs are much more radical – though I would call them simply more biblical – than most Christians I know. And certainly my husband and children think I am living in cloud cuckoo land when I talk about putting my trust in God and not in money.

  13. I would like to reply to Michael’s comment on not being lonely internally. He is right in that Christ is always there for us internally and HE will never leave us or forsake us. What Tozer was speaking of is a realm of “fellowship of His sufferings”. The more that you yeild your life to live in what Christ has said is the ONLY way to follow Him…denying your self, which means saying goodbye to all your possess in your heart, even your own life, the more you will understand completely what Tozer meant. If you have not tasted of that reality of lonliness….read Ps. 69 and understand what the life of a true disciple can be like at times….the Spirit LEAD JESUS into the wilderness….and it was a place of the total stripping of fleshly humanity culminating in the confrontation with Satan in every temptation….we have for the most part in this generation KNOWN HIS ACTS….but not HIS WAYS. His ways are not ours…they will lead us into times of great sufferings in the flesh to purify and comform us to HIS image internally. If you have not tasted of that realm in your walk in Christ….ask the Holy Spirit to make the word flesh in you…”to know HIM in the power of His ressurection ( death proceded resurrection) and the fellowship of HIS sufferings, and BEING MADE CONFORMIBLE TO HIS DEATH.” If you live full of the HOLY SPIRIT and a life truly led by the SPIRIT you will be led into all of the above. For “as HE is in the earth…so are we.” If you have not known Him in the realm of the CROSS in your own life….even a time where you cry out “My God why have you forsaken me”….you have yet to understand the life of true discipleship in Christ. For “If we suffer with HIM…we shall reign together with Him.” May the Lord open the eyes of our understanding with the truth of HIS life being lived in and through us. For the purpose of God is to conform us to the IMAGE of CHRIST. Christ formed in us as Paul so clearly said to the Galations he was in travail for once again in birth. Selah

  14. antipas4yahshua Sep 13th 2013

    Very true. Thanks for the reminder.

  15. You know u r on a different path when most Christians get real nervous around you. You don’t have to say a word. Just being in their presence makes them want to run. To make them run sooner and faster, simply try to share some of the things God has revealed to you about churchianity. The pastors are the worse however.
    No matter how careful you walk, or how respectful you are to them, if you mean business for God and your surrender is deep complete with trials, afflictions, and loneliness, you can sense in your spirit that they wished you never walked through their doors.
    in ’77 my wife and I received a prophecy in Texas ‘the church is not ready for you yet’. Then in Omaha ‘the churches you’ve been in so far wished you never walked through their doors’.
    This was 2 years after we found Christ.
    I could go on with some real horror stories but I won’t. We’ve been in the wilderness now for about 12 years and loving it. Trials still come, but God’s closeness is wonderful. The Spirit of prophecy is always with us. He has provided all our needs since we dropped tithing and look to help the poor. Awesome!

  16. A. W. Tozer has a deeper understanding of God’s word and a deeper experience that goes with it.

    GaryB

  17. michelle d. Sep 13th 2013

    Go into all the world and preach the GOSPEL… Not GO INTO the church AND PREACH THE GOSPEL… The gospel is the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand… What will we do with JESUS…

    Oh… So true… But were else would we GO… We are the ones who carry the presence of GOD to a lost world… We are the smell of frankincense and myrrh. The smell of the RESSURECTION of JESUS… in a lost world… The world hears us quite well… Because we have the Savor of Christ in us… When they hear us… We like JESUS speak with the AUTHORITY and the LOVE of GOD… and they say I want whatever you have… in YOU… That is of GOD… Christ in you! We are the light of the world! If our light BE darkness woes the DARKNESS… Don’t curse the darkness… Be more light… JESUS BRIGHTER!

  18. Also, I have experienced that the more I am involved with lots of people and busy for the Lord the less intimacy I have with the Lord. The more I am not busy, the more time in thought, in prayer in the Word, in fellowship with Him etc. I am. The more I can hear His voice. I have been severely criticized for this by many who would call themselves mature Christians.

    Many I have come across want me to be like them. But I dont want their relationship with the Lord. That is for them. I love mine. It is He and I.

    I have only a couple of people whom we re kindred spirits. In Amos it says how can two walk together less they be agreed. And for the past couple of years I have had Church with TSC in NYC online. The Holy Spirit shows up in my home with many different messages to my heart. Pastor Conlon bears witness with my spirit on his messages for such a time as this for the body.

    Tozer, after being in the midst of people, could not wait to go and get alone with the Lord. That’s what it’s all about – being alone with the Lord. Amen

  19. So true, It is just what I am experiencing . I myself have been crying out to the Lord like this, feeling rejected and lost the ministry I once had,Jesus is my source of all in all and all of my joy, but sometimes there is pain in the lack of true fellowship with other believers and finding those for whom He is their all in all.

  20. If you get lonely and start thinking you are the only one, there are always the “7000 who have not bowed their knee to Baal.” Problem is, they have not bowed their knee to the Lord either. Where were they on Mt. Carmel? The bible says he summoned all of Israel there – but the people said nothing. If I were Elijah I would have pressed God a little bit more about this.

    I personally enjoy the solitude of a sold out walk, but I am more of a loner by nature. The Lord is as good of company as you are going to find.

  21. Cecily Finn Sep 13th 2013

    Only too true. Tozer always hit the nail on the head, because he knew His God, and he knew His ways. Anyone who has been truly “separated unto the Lord” can relate to this piece, as it is a part of their own experience. Our magnificant and Holy God does not always make things easy for us, which is contrary to the “trendy” gospel being preached nowadays.

    If you are looking for a writer you can really trust,Tozer can always be relied upon to speak the truth about all the fundamentals of our faith, and of our God. He will not lead you astray, as so many others might, and will instill in you a greater love for God, because his own great love for the Lord Jesus Christ permeates his writings.

    Cecily

  22. Tozer has expressed beautiful what I feel. The further up the mountain one climbs the lonelier it becomes as you see friends and family drop behind happy where they are. Of course, the deeper relationship with Him is wonderful and my heart’s desire is for even more, but to have others who think and worship and praise and adore Him alongside me would be wonderful too.
    Much prayer is needed for us in the UK.

  23. Ruthie Sep 13th 2013

    Good one, as usual.

  24. Thank you for this article. I have had 33 years of walking alone and wondered why so many times. I find someone that seems to be on the same wave length only to find it’s more of a religious walk than one with our Lord………..I needed this and thank you all for writing it.

  25. Claudia Sep 13th 2013

    What a beautiful song you are all singing! Moves my heart for you all and for Yeshua, who jealously guards His own.

  26. AMEN and AMEN!!

    I am a LONGTIME member of this club!!

    My thought: We need to get a network going so that we might be in touch and relationship with our brothers and sisters of this level of call.

    How ’bout it?

  27. Catherine Sep 13th 2013

    I agree with most of the above comments. As a true believer of the The Lord, and the Scriptures, it is a very lonely life. One has to be careful what you share with whom! The truth is not for everyone who professes to be a christian.
    To live within the Will of the Lord and to obey His Commandments, is not easy and not for everyone.
    But I rejoyce in the Lord! He is my Saviour! What would my life be without Him? Nothing!

  28. Yes, Tozer says it pretty much in a nutshell. Every comment before this one was certainly good and appreciated for its merit and empathy and truth. Pr. Michael’s comment reminded me of the story of a little child who was afraid of the dark and as his earthly father prayed with him to not be afraid, as Jesus was with him, he frankly replied when his Dad finished the prayer, “But, Daddy, I want someone with skin on!” Yes we have intimacy with our Lord, but there are times that we feel that a kind human compassionate holy hug or sincere caring word would also carry us for days.
    I was married to a spirit filled pastor for 32 years who decided it was too costly to move forward further in Christ with me, and divorced me and remarried. God gave me Psalm 4:3 and Christ has become a most wonderful husband.
    Recently I went to a Pentecostal church twice to worship with my daughter, in town, and her family. The worship was great and I shouted and danced and played my tambourine, at age 70, and prophesied during the space left for it, and it was a wonderful experience after not being in a church service for a long time. The second time I went, 2 weeks later, an usher stood beside me at my end seat on Easter Sunday 2013, wearing his headset that was connected to the front stage personnel. I knew in my spirit that he was there to subdue me. I asked God if I was to return there and He said, “Donna, they are not ready for you there yet!!”, so I was glad to get that confirmed again here by another’s comment. A kind brother keeps giving me the story of Elijah under the broom tree, when I feel an occasional depression over the church, and being set apart, so I appreciated that sharing here also.
    I know that when we suffer with Him we shall be glorified with Him, Romans 8:17, so I am biding my time, and trying to keep my focus and heart concentrated on Him and doing His bidding, and the prophetic anointing has been increasing for doing so. My heart and prayers go out to each of you, and someday we will all meet and laugh about this on the other side where there, we will find a lot more others like us. Meanwhile, I too am always glad to get back home and be alone with Jesus after having been used prophetically with many in the marketplaces where He sends me. It’s a trust walk and we do sing the camp song, “I must walk this earthly lonesome valley by myself!” (but with Jesus and the five wise virgins) Caringly, Donna

  29. Tozer’s comments:
    As the other postings have said, this is an excellent word and encouraging. My spiritual journey is solitary because I am the only saved member in my family. I have received much persecution from them and years ago from the growing ‘apostate church’. The Pastor who made comments to the contrary, either does not know his congregation in their inner depths, or himself has not had to ‘test’ the religious bounds of churchianity, or lives with saved family members. Perhaps he does not see the dire need in the world around him, which breaks one’s heart, as on the streets of Calcutta, or in the alleyways of Sao Paulo. He does not feel the wretchedness of Govts who pass depraved laws like the gay bills, or the western mind set of “Me Me”. The deeper God draws us in, the more we unsettle those around us, especially those who ‘pew warm’ church seats. We anger the unsaved but are a light to those who are truly seeking and are broken hearted. God is jealous for us and wants us for Himself.
    And when those ones respond to Him accordingly, then the walk becomes more isolating as our relationship with Him is paramount over all else in life. But to the Pastor and his comments -we still do have joy, we have strength, we have courage -the Holy Spirit is the enabler -but these words of Tozer are from a man who knew God. Bless you all.

  30. Vicki Lynn Sep 13th 2013

    LONELINESS FROM A WORLDLY PERSPECTIVE.

    I don’t have time for worldly loneliness in my life or to think about it. There are so many needs around me, we just have to look at the elderly aged care homes, are these people saved ?

    Does anyone care about these old folks who are about ready to die, they are suffering physically & spiritually, family often have left them, no one encouraging to talk to in their long lonely days, such loneliness , just waiting for the end to come.
    They can’t properly dress themselves or do much to help themselves.

    THEY NOW HAVE THE TIME TO THINK AT LAST.

    They could come out of their loneliness & forget themselves and just speak to Jesus,, just themselves & Jesus, but they have not been told of this valuable time given to them, finding out the problems/needs even of those looking after them (the Nurses) & giving these needs to the Lord, each day finding many more problems facing others & seeing God faithful in answered prayer.

    The People with Disabilities stuck in special homes/hospitals, feeling loneliness all the time, family have often left them as well.

    THEIR TIME ALONE COULD BE SO VALUABLE, if only they knew about the Lord, and their seeing the needs of others around them.

    We(me) mixing with the world everyday are too busy to see what these people could see, and these people have the time available to them, God could open their hearts so much, such valuable people in prayer , but they don’t know it.

  31. Claudia Sep 13th 2013

    Jesus Christ is sooooo the only doorway back to the Father…..all glory is His!

    Whenever I get confused about any doctrine, or lonely, I am reminded of this one fact, so clearly shown in the dream He gave me many years ago…..that no other love can compare to the love He has for us, and that faith and belief in Jesus Christ and staying with Him is the key to our renewal and redemption, and the answer to all our needs.

    The dream also showed what we all were…..what we are now…..and what we will be. A few years after having the dream I wanted to put it into a song to honor Him…but I am not a writer, nor am I a poet….so i really struggled and prayed for His help and the poem below was the results.

    CHRIST’S GLORIOUS TASK

    In the clearing of man’s decay,
    The Son found me on that fateful day.
    A child, lost, no chance to grow;
    Struck down by God’s jealous evil foe.

    Dead in this life, arms raised to Him;
    To be reborn and freed from sin,
    forever more to be preserved,
    And sanctified in His Holy Word.

    To His heart I was embraced,
    and in His arms I’ve found my place,
    Near His heart, close, warm and safe.
    A product of His loving Grace.

    He showed me an image of what I was;
    A corpse so dead and without love.
    He showed me now just where I am;
    Tucked with love beneath His chin.

    He showed me what I am to be;
    My life in all His Eternity.
    There’s nothing here to compare,
    To the promises waiting there.
    * * * *
    I WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL YOUR NEEDS.
    JUST LOVE MY PEOPLE WHILE YOUR HERE,
    FOR WHAT’S TO COME IS YET TO BE.
    I NEED YOU HERE TO PLANT THE SEEDS.
    * * * *
    When He has completed me,
    An offering to our Father I will be.
    Crystal clear, a child of Living glass,
    Light reflecting in Christ’s Glorious Task.

    Claudia 3/28/2002

  32. Averyl Sep 13th 2013

    All so true!

    Chris, – Yes, I’ve been feeling like Elijah lately!

    anne, – Your idea of a network was the thought that motivated me to create a fb page, New Plymouth Church NZ for those of us locally, but no locals have responded to my friend requests yet!

  33. Thank you also Andrew, I needed that. Our capacity to love seems to be deeper and our need to have that fellowship with others like us and God has got us alone with Him. It is hard to walk the walk and when we say Jesus here is my life He takes it seriously. I sometimes feel guilty for not reaching out but God has me where He has me and alone with Him until in His timing HE will send us out to do what HE has trained us to do.

    People get upset when I say what does Jesus say to do? They don’t want to know or I say I have to ask the Lord about it and what He wants me to do. They think it is an excuse but it isn’t. I want His will more than anything else in the world because I love Him. People do not want to live this life and get upset with me yet they say they wish they had the relationship I have with Him. I ask them if they want to go through the trials and tribulations to get to know Him. They walk away. I weep for them as they know not what they miss.

    Thanks again for the word.

  34. So true. When you are in such a state of loneliness it is one indication of The Wretched Man Syndrome described in Romans 7. http://media.sermonindex.info/24/SID24176.mp3

    But praise God there is a Sure Cure for Loneliness! http://www.sourceministries.net/go/2010/12/sure-cure-for-loneliness/

    Press on rejoicing!

  35. Andrew Sep 13th 2013

    Hmmm.

    Not the kind of “loneliness” we are talking about here, Lewis.

    But thanks for the ‘cure’.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  36. Donna L Sep 13th 2013

    It is true, the closer your walk with God, the deeper your understanding of The Word, the harder it is to find
    “like” companionship. I have been there many many times and still there. My friends are very limited. Not that I don’t share Jesus with others, there are few that understand my devotion, unconditional love (love the sinner, not the sin), and forgiveness. I love the Lord with every ounce of my being, and if need be, lay my life down for Him! I am an intercessor/prayer warrior. He holds me to a high standard as He does ministers, teachers, prophets, etc. Blessings, brothers & sisters in Our Lord Jesus!

  37. I have to agree with Donna, and I’m walking the same path. Walking in the shoes of Jesus, it is not easy, but you do get used to it. There is no other way, it is the walk of a true Christian, who has learned to embrace the cross. Shalom

  38. Denise Sep 13th 2013

    Yes and Amen. That’s what I call reading my own mail.

  39. Is that why I’m often so unpopular as a preacher in my local church? No one wants to talk about spiritual things; no one even wants to discuss the sermon they’ve just heard.
    Dinkum downunderwriter David

  40. As humans we seek a connection with other humans. And as we are wanting a like-minded and like-spiritual understanding friend it is rare that we find them. It just makes me pursue my Beloved even more. If it were not for the lack of spiritual connection and understanding I might have turned to another human instead of my Beloved Jesus. He is my all-in-all.

  41. Lightning Storm Sep 13th 2013

    AMEN…….Pr Michael.

    Alone? Yes……Lonely? NEVER.

    Almighty God is the SOURCE of ALL my needs:
    emotional
    spiritual
    mental
    physical

    The moment I was born again I no longer felt EMPTY; LONELY; DEPRESSED; or FELT UNLOVED.

    I can still say that after all these years walking with Jesus, I have never had a single moment where I felt those things.

    Those things describe my life BEFORE being born again.

  42. I wept when I read Tozers words and was comforted when reading the experiences of others. I had been crying out to God in my aloneness and rejection by those about me and have done so for many years. Those who do not know of this as part of their walk, I might add I am happy for them, but let me say, all are not called to live on the mountain heights, some are called to agonise, and travail in prayer till Christ be formed in others. The longing in the heart of this one is matched by the longing in the heart of Christ. Many times there are no words to describe the depth of this knowing, this is as it should be. My only comfort at times is to remember His cry in the Garden of Gethsemane, “Father, take this cup from me, nevertheless not my will but Thine be done”. Then I can rejoice, once again knowing, the alabaster box of my flesh life has been broken and the pouring out of the costly perfume brings delight to His heart. More of me has been nailed to the Cross. The work is done in the Secret Place, as this one abides in the Shadow of the Almighty. We may never know the divine exchange that has taken place as He identifies with the constant cry of those who carry this call. Remember the five wise virgins, the sweet smelling anointing oil in their lamps will only come as they lay at His feet and wash them with their tears. They will shine and no stench will come from their wicks, a sweet smell in His nostrils as they walk in a broken world. For you see it is not about us or the world or the church, it is about loving Him and walking in Resurrection Life. I too have sought for answers and have come to understand, the work is done in the spirit realm, we are not meant to see the success of our trial lest we boast in our hearts.

  43. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    All the prophets walked alone.

    Even though they were with God.

    Even though sometimes with people.

    Still they walked alone.

    Those who cannot understand that burden – please keep silent.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  44. Tx
    Lightning Storm
    All the sin, pain, sickness, death, sorrow, weakness failings..were nailed to the cross he became the curse dEUT in our stead

  45. Good word, Andrew. I think the loneliness is created more out of a mis-understanding by others of the will and calling of God on our lives. Moses thought the children of Israel would have understood his call; but they did not – as a result he spent 40 years in the wilderness (Acts 7:23-29). But God used all that to make him a deliverer of a nation. And He uses it in our lives to refine us more for His purposes.

  46. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    Well said, Rodney.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  47. I can weep for those who do not experience the victory and liberty that is in Christ
    When Jesus arose from the dead he left the curse in the grave This is what “being conformable to His death means it means the death of our “old man” the flesh, the human nature with all it frailties.
    we no longer need to wallow in sorrow.
    The curse and blessing are set forth in Deut 28
    Jesus came to win the battle do away with sin, the curse and bring in victory instead of despair and defeat!
    This is true.
    oh that the spirit filled were taught sound doctrine
    What person (i speak metaphorically) would have Ferrari in the garage and never use it
    I know thousand if saints in Africa who have no possessions, live from hand to mouth as far as natural life is concerned yet experience none of the symptoms spoken of by may here
    The blame is firmly on teachers who promote sentiment instead of love how i feel instead of what God now says I am in him.
    The Church will never realize its potential until it shakes off the legacy of reformers who struggled to separate from the shackles of religion They did not then have the fulness of the spirit like the early Church. Now that understanding – doctrine is once agin brought to light and freely available to all, we do not have that excuse.the reformers and early revivalist had.
    Do i feel for those above who are lonely rejected? yes .
    I encourage you believe the Gospel there is no need to be like this. Do not get of you knees (metaphorically ) until Christ fills your heart with the joy of the Lord and the peace that passes understanding. Fear is the opposite of faith and fear has torment and perfect love casts out all fear
    Pr Michael

  48. Robert C. Johnson Sep 14th 2013

    The scripture declares “He was a Man of sorrow, acquainted with grief”. The is the cost of discipleship as we are being conformed into the image of His Son. We are called out of this world yet we live in it awaiting His return for us. King David experienced such loneliness and encouraged himself in the Lord’s Promises. Elijah
    thought he was alone after defeating the 450 false prophets of Baal. God always has a remnant. We are all being connected and encouraged right now.
    Here the word of the LORD:
    1Ki 19:18

    “Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

    Be ENCOURAGED SAINTS.

    2 Corinthians 4:7-15

    7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.

    13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.

  49. After reading comments and making my own, would like to share a very precious word given to me recently from the Lord to His body. I pray you are blessed.

    He would say,
    I have set my seal upon My virgins. Many carry oil, but it is the oil that does not contain divine ingredients. This oil will have no sustaining virtue, it is manufactured by the flesh. My word says My true anointing oil, is not to be placed on the flesh, cannot be used by the flesh and many have sought to use this oil without paying the true price. They have paid dirt money and there is no sustaining power in the work of the flesh. This oil can only be obtained through the broken and contrite heart. You whose lamp is always aglow have allowed My Spirit to take His continual cutting back of the wick that the flow of oil is aways steady and strong. You have not flinched as the circumcision knife has cut away all the blackness hidden deep in your soul. You have allowed the Spirit of Burning to do His work and you are a sweet smell in My nostrils. As My servant Abraham offered up his son Isaac as a burning sacrifice so do I accept you as you place yourself before My burning love.
    As I said to my servant Paul ” For I will show him many things he must suffer for My Names’ sake,” All who desire to have their lamps continually full will pay with the laying down of their flesh that they may be raised up in due time to carry forth the anointing of brokenness to glow in holy splendour as the world becomes darker

    As the rise in persecution comes upon My true church, I will pour out My grace in new measure and she will come to know the depths of My love for the lost, never witnessed before. Grace upon grace. But first My church will need the fuller revelation of My outpoured grace upon her. My servant Stephen saw My glory as no other since Moses. The religious of the day saw fit to stone one of My own and I allowed it that all would witness the immeasureable depths of My love and grace Acts 7:54-60.
    Be not concerned at the fiery trial, I willl make a new covenant of love as I draw My bride out of the wilderness, leaning heavily on My arm. I have made the valley of trouble (Achor ) a door of hope. You will call Me your Husband and you will have no other idols before Me. Hos. 2; 14-17
    I will cause you to be raised up into your true authority to reign with Me and crush the head of the enemy as you move into new revelations through My Spirit.

  50. Pastor Michael , with all respect I believe you have missed the whole point. This is not about sadness and depression, lack of victory, fear or earthly sorrow. This about seeing, discernment and revelation. It is not about sentimentality, but knowing Him and His desires for His church to grow to maturity. This is not about, despair and defeat. Many teachers have taught that we should be living in constant joy and prosperity and that we should never experience failure, well brother when I am weak, then He is strong and any success is not my doing but because of Him. His power is manifest in my weakness. Many today have an abundance of joy and fleshly zeal, but do they have the authority to overcome all the power of the enemy. It is about overcoming by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and not loving their lives even unto death. Rev. 12:11

  51. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    Dawn – you are so right.

    This issue is not about lacking the “victory and liberty that is in Christ”

    If people think this “alone-ness” is about that, they completely misunderstand what we are talking about.

    The prophets of God walked alone.

    There is much in this. If you do not understand it, please do not belittle those who do.

    Blessings!

    Andrew Strom

  52. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    BTW – this does not mean to undermine the ‘Body gathering’ of believers in the NT sense.

    “Body” is a crucial concept also.

    Blessings!

    Andrew

  53. watchful Sep 14th 2013

    “It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His
    inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God
    what he can find nowhere else.”

    Yes, and amen to the article….to me this is the nature of the wilderness walk, because it is spiritually outside the camp whether or not you are in company. That feeling of loneliness is really a longing for the Lord, I find – it is deep calling unto deep…and I have learned to welcome it with my soul almost panting in anticipation because it is often the precursor to a very precious time with the Father.

    Amen Jane, I agree with your comment to Michael quite a way above, which is in agreement with the scriptures. Maybe it is that different individuals pay different kinds of costs in following Christ, and of course can be at different places along the way.

  54. watchful Sep 14th 2013

    May I just say before signing off, that I find so often people place expectations on others based on their own experience…..when actually we are all very different in so many aspects, even as to the measure of faith we have received, our battles and warfare in life is often unique to our circumstances and the intercessions we have been given, not to mention different gifts and callings, and the fact that we all have different things to overcome in our lives to begin with. It might be beneficial if we all keep that in mind before “dumping down” on anyone and judging someone else’s walk.

    What I was shown is that the offering is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one doesn’t have, and the stronger ought to bear with the weaker. That widow’s mite wasn’t just talking about money. The far more important thing is to be conformed to Christ, one hopes to see the fruits of the Spirit in evidence and growing…He is not checking the tree to see how many miracles were performed or whether some pinnacle of spiritual experience has been reached, or whatever anybody’s thing happens to be. No, isn’t He looking for the fruit of Christlikeness, whether from the least of us to the greatest.

  55. Dawn ,Andrew tx for your admonition. I have given this some thought and prayer.please bear with me..
    I am sorry Andrew i do not mean to belittle anyone, but rather promote to love and perfection in Christ. testifying what i have experienced together with thousands over 53 years and that has not included the line Tozer is promoting. Am i missing out? or maybe not good at explaining?

    I am reminded that the prophets of old, Moses David, Abraham, et al. much as we admire them, and may learn from them, did not have what we have, different time different covenant. It was revealed to them that “God provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
    “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.”

    To compare the Holy Ghost baptized person with the Old Testament experience seems like the law of the Spirit of life V law of sin and death.

    We are commanded to be perfect as our Father is perfect.
    God says We are come “To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” (our loving understanding brethren in Christ)
    Tozer seem to imply that “The man (or woman) who has passed on into the divine Presence” does not know or has not experienced Heb 12 23

    Tozer says “It is this very loneliness that throws him “The man (or woman) who has passed on into the divine Presence”?? back?? upon God!? His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else?!
    Has this man or woman never read Math 10 25 Luke 6, John15, ! John and particularly v 13, does he/she not yet know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?
    We are hated by all men and in return we love them.

    Pr Michael

  56. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    The FULLNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT is what we ALL are suppose to be walking in……24/7….not just when you run out of your own ideas and run out of your own strength and run out of companions.

    In order to be a Rom 8, Gal 5, Eph 6 follower of Jesus…..you have ALREADY laid down your own will, your own strength, your own EVERYTHING …..EMPTIED YOURSELF, in order to be FULL OF THE NATURE OF the Holy Spirit AND the Nature of the Man Jesus.

    What does the FULLNESS of the Holy Spirit look like in a person?

    It looks like the SPIRIT OF GOD.

    What are the names of the Holy Spirit? There are dozens of them…and each one describes Who He is and What He’s like. (His characteristics/nature)

    If we say we are FILLED UP WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, then we SHOULD be FILLED UP with His CHARACTERISTICS/NATURE.

    The following are only a FEW of the Characteristics of the Holy Spirit…….These are DIVINE Characteristics NOT HUMAN characteristics, which FAIL.

    Power, Holiness, Grace, Wisdom, Revelation, Knowledge of the Lord, Truth, Love, Joy, Peace etc etc

    If a person doesn’t exhibit the Divine Characteristics of the Spirit of God, then the person is NOT FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and does NOT have RIVERS OF LIVING WATER FLOWING OUT OF THEM.

    [Act 1:8 KJV] 8 But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    Gal 5
    22 But the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    I don’t see the mention of loneliness.

    Loneliness is NOT A FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
    Loneliness is NOT the same as being ALONE.

    The Fruit of the Holy Spirit is DIVINE…NOT MANUFACTURED BY THE HUMAN NATURE OR HUMAN SPIRIT.

    How can the Nature (FRUIT) OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD GROW UP OR MATURE??

    We ARE to be living in CONSTANT JOY (plus all the other characteristics/fruit of the SPIRIT OF GOD) because we are to be living CONSTANTLY FILLED UP WITH HIS JOY, HIS LOVE, HIS PEACE, HIS FAITH, HIS HOLINESS, HIS POWER,

    HIS IMAGE…THE IMAGE OF JESUS

    ………tell me when does God run out of GOD? Do you have the WHOLE GODHEAD LIVING IN YOU AS THE SCRIPTURES STATE? Or just a small portion of the GODHEAD?

  57. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    AMEN AMEN AMEN….Pr Michael.

    We are to be FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST….THE SPIRIT OF GOD…..WHO IS PERFECT.

  58. Amen! Thanks for the post Andrew. The more I study God’s word, the more I am alienated from this world. I cannot find a place to call home and patiently await my Lord’s return.

  59. God bless you Andrew for releasing the message. It is totally understood by those who follow on to know the Lord. Thank you as well for adding your comments as those who “think they know” sit in seats above those who have come to know Christ in His sufferings ( New Covenant/Testament by the way) and PROVE the very words of TOZER about being alone “even in the midst of those who proclaim Christ”….trying to “teach” them differently….even though many of us have given testimony to the life of discipleship which includes time of weeping as well as rejoicing! How on earth do we “weep with those who weep” if we are always above suffering. One of the main problems in the “American Church” is the refusal to allow the SPIRIT of CHRIST to take us in to IDENTIFICATION with Christ in HIS path that included being alone. Yes, God uses it all! It was and still IS the life of those who are truly PROPHETS….even new testament…because those who are truly prophets are given the “burdens of the SPIRIT” and they are such that one feels QUITE alone internally. Nothing to do with Christ and His fullness inside…but result of the Spirit giving the burden in CO LABORING with CHRIST! If you are not gifted to be a SEER….please do not tell the ones who have the manifestation of the SPIRIT to profit all….NOT TO SEE and say what they SEE. This in particular is to encourage Michael to think before”preaching”….he is only one part….and other parts are necessary for the building up of the body until we all come to the fullness of the stature of Christ. Blessings all in His love and grace. Even so….Come Lord Jesus!

  60. I was going to write something about the differences between the old testament prophets and the new testament prophets. Mostly about the new testament prophets having fellowship, and friends among the church.

    But the church the new testament prophets fellowshipped with were not into the occult.

    So it is not surprising that the people that try to be holy today are not a part of a Christian coven. There is no fellowship there anyway, and you are just going to be abused with the occult.

  61. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    The Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, GRIEVES over our RESISTANCE TO YIELD to Him Who indwells us, because The Spirit’s role in us is to bring us to PURITY AND HOLINESS, the image of Jesus.

    [Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Perhaps people are confusing DIVINE JOY with HUMAN HAPPINESS.

    [2Cr 7:4 KJV] 4 Great [is] my boldness of speech toward you, great [is] my glorying of you: I am FILLED with comfort (the Holy Spirit/Comforter), I am EXCEEDING JOYFUL IN ALL OUR TRIBULATION.

    Perhaps people are confusing CARNAL EMOTIONS with DIVINE CHARACTERISTICS/NATURE.

    [2Cr 7:10 For Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    Godly Sorrow is MOURNING OVER YOUR OWN SIN.
    Which leads to repentance.

    Wallowing in “woe is me” the victim mentality is a SIN.
    Wallowing in “woe is them” does not PRESSURE the Holy Spirit to do your will. There is a Divine Plan that cannot be thwarted.
    We are to pray according to the instructions of the Holy Spirit….why? Because He knows the Divine Plan at every moment for each person created and we do NOT.

    Jesus Christ came to set ALL captives FREE and HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED.
    That would be NOW while we’re still ALIVE.

    Weeping because you can’t SIN ANYMORE is not the same as Jesus Christ weeping because He was being sent to the ACTUAL PHYSICAL CROSS to become separated from His Holy Father’s Presence like Jesus has never before experienced.

    We have yet to experience the SAME FELLOWSHIP THAT JESUS HAD WITH HIS FATHER while He was here on earth…….and it was given up voluntarily but not without pain and weeping.

    Weeping because someone REJECTED you is not the same as SUFFERING WITH JESUS Who ALL humanity has REJECTED and MOCKED since Adam and Eve.

    [Psa 53:1-3 NASB] 1 For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,” They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is NO ONE who does good.
    2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
    3 EVERY ONE of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is NO ONE who does good, not even one.

    ALL mankind has turned their backs on Almighty God, until His Holy Spirit TURNS THEM BACK TO JESUS IN REPENTANCE and RECONCILIATION.

    Jesus didn’t suffer from loneliness because He lacked companionship from mankind.

    He suffered because HIS PERFECT FELLOWSHIP WITH HIS FATHER WAS INTERRUPTED FOR 3 DAYS AND NIGHTS.

  62. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    Self-Pity is a SIN for a follower of Jesus Christ.

    Self anything is a SIN.

    Uplifting the Selfish Flesh is glorifying it and deifying it.

    Your regenerated spirit is who you are as a person….your identity….the essence of who you are uniquely created from any other human being.

    Self is referring to your carnal sin nature ie. flesh/soul.

  63. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    This can only be achieved when the self, its feelings and emotions are subject to Jesus, the living Word, it also goes without saying that the Spirit of God must indwell us, rule us, then our feelings.an emotions.will be Godly and correct, we will speak with one voice, not many. 1 John 2
    Pr Michael

  64. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    You have made your point.

    I feel strongly that you totally misunderstand the entire issue.

    Is it possible for you two to be silent on this now please?

    Thanks so much.

    -Andrew Strom

  65. Jda016 Sep 14th 2013

    One of the loneliness times of my life was in high school, however this was also one of the greatest times of nearness to Christ I have ever had.

    I remember always wanting friends and one day God gave them to me. Strange thing was that when I was in the midst of them and hearing their laughter and fun all I could think about was wanting to go and be alone with my God.

    There is no treasure like the treasure of intimacy with Christ.

  66. Daniel Sep 14th 2013

    Isaiah 66:5 NASB

    Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at His word:
    “Your brothers who hate you, who exclude you for My name’s sake,
    Have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy.’
    But they will be put to shame.

    I’m sorry, but all this talk of ‘no you shouldn’t be lonely, we’re meant to be filled with joy”, sounds like the above scripture to me. Brothers for the sake of God telling their family in Christ, “Glorify Jesus, be joyful”. You exclude your brothers and sisters by such a comment, to say such is hateful. Many of these people have walked a long lonely road, the way of the cross. They have borne the reproach of Christ, they’ve paid the price by going outside the camp and suffering with Him. Don’t speak about what you do not fully understand. Its easy to write what you have while surrounded by many friends and loving adoring congregations. Try standing for the truth when no one else is willing to do it. Tell me then how “joyful” you are at being rejected for Christ’s sake. Of course we walk with Him, and there are other brothers and sisters that come along side us, but each of us individually will give an account before God. You can’t take your loving group with you.

  67. Andrew Sep 14th 2013

    Daniel – please do not go too far either, my friend

    Let us keep the bond of peace

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  68. Jda016 Sep 14th 2013

    To Lizzie,

    My heart goes out to you and the situation you are in. It is so incredibly hard to be around an unbelieving family. God grant you the strength and grace to go on. May he shine through you and touch the lives of your family. You are a continual witness to them simply by what you believe. Be strong and take courage. You are not alone! Never alone! You are a city not forsaken, but lifted up before God as you faithfully serve him. Your faith is an enduring testimony to your family and even the angels in Heaven.

    The Lord bless you and keep you. I will be praying for you!

    Your brother,
    Jonathan

  69. Andrew, Thank you again for posting this by Tozer and thank you for the strong line you are bringing as it truly adds pain to hear the comments of those who clearly are not understanding what is being discussed. Praise God there are some that do.
    God bless you – keep posting.
    Penny

  70. I am glad to know that I am not the only one who feels this way. I thought there was something wrong with me. Indeed it is true then, that the narrow road is also a lonely road. Let us pray for another….

  71. watchful Sep 14th 2013

    Amen to your post Jane.

    Hmm, as usual when one thing is said, a huge package of false assumptions is attributed to that one thing. Longing for God and deep calling unto deep has nothing whatever to do with self-pity. If I were uncaring and lacked love, I would just say to my sibling oh well you are free to think that if you wish and verbally wash my hands of you. But in fact my heart goes out to you the past couple of days for some reason L.S. and so I have and will be praying for you. Though you might be in the bind of considering it a sin to have any needs when the Lord is your all-sufficiency.

    Do we not partake of the divine nature in increasing measure? This means that we don’t start out possessing it in it’s entirety, and that growth is a factor. Even Paul did not consider himself to have “already attained”, though some here seem to consider that they have. If they have, then we would expect to see the fruits accordingly. Only those who know how much they need grace themselves actually will come to possess it. And from that spring other characteristics such as humility and love.

    I just want to say what a mistake it is to think that feelings and emotion only belong to the fallen nature, whereas in reality those things are not annihilated at the cross, but refined and sanctified, brought into submission but not extinguished. The bible is chock full of sentiment, not the absence of it. And the right sentiments do carry a lot of weight with God, or else what is effectual fervent prayer all about? Jesus is touched with the feeling of our infirmities, otherwise He would not be qualified to be our High Priest. One reason we suffer is for that very purpose, so that we also can be touched with the feeling of infirmity and thus be qualified to serve others.

    Michael, I don’t know the details of your situation, but it’s precisely because of not being friends with the world that we experience loneliness.

  72. Barry Schmidt Sep 14th 2013

    In my 55 plus years in the church I have come to be convinced that the most common idolatry in the church is the idolatry of relationship. Most relational problems in the family and in the church are rooted in the idolatry of insisting on filling our neediness by demanding from our loved ones what can only be found in fellowship with God. An idol is trying to find in the creation and in the creature what can only be found in God.

    For Jesus to save us from the heinous sin of relational idolatry and its resulting personal disappointment, hurt, resentment and bitterness towards our fellow man everyone must at times be prepared to experience the precious and exquisite pain of sharing in the loneliness of Jesus.

    He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isaiah 53:3 NASB)

    Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. (Hebrews 13:12, 13 NASB)

  73. Barry Schmidt Sep 14th 2013

    Having said that much loneliness is tolerated in the name of “walking the holy and lonely road of holiness.” Woe is me!!!! Many self proclaimed “super spiritual giants” are deceived into believing their loneliness is from being more spiritual than anyone else when their loneliness is ACTUALLY the result of their own self centred spiritual pride, arrogance and self deception.
    To these self deceived religious fanatics loving relationships with fellow man is NOT THE END OF THEIR SALVATION rather living relationships with the church and with people are merely MEANS to their own self centred pursuit of perfection and so called holiness!!!

    This loneliness is a sin and must be repented of without any indulgence in self pity, rationalization or self deception.

    Sin is NOTHING MORE OR LESS than a failure to love God and love our neighbours as ourselves in sacrificial relationship through Jesus Christ.

    Jesus came to save us from our sin!!
    That means Jesus came to save us from this sinful loneliness of failing to be saved BY ENTERING INTO AND MAINTAINING LOVING PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOD AND FELLOW MAN!!!!

    The sin of loneliness is rooted in the idolatry of self love, self centred spirituality and the selfish pursuit of righteousness and holiness FOR SELF and not for the sake of the glory of God and the love for others!!!

    Let this word penetrate and expose our hidden motives and let us not spiritualize or glory in our self love!
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. (Hebrews 4:12, 13 NASB)

  74. Barry Schmidt Sep 14th 2013

    Thus there a loneliness which is NECESSARY in our pursuit of God. Yet beware! There is ALSO a loneliness that is a sin- resulting from the hidden sin of self love and spiritual selfish ambition- THE VERY THING JESUS CAME TO SAVE US FROM!!!

  75. Barry Schmidt Sep 14th 2013

    Daniel YOU SAID – ” you can’t take your loving groups with you.”???????

    Really?????

    I don’t know where you are going if your “loving groups” are not only going to BE THERE but that those “loving groups” ARE AN ENORMOUS PART OF THE MAIN ATTRACTION THERE!!
    Heaven ( both where it is now and when heaven comes to the earth) is where my Bible says we are going- and it is a place of perfect TOGETHERNESS with God and with our “loving groups.”

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14 NASB)

    Sometimes we have been so wounded by “loving groups” that we have deceived ourselves into forgetting that salvation is defined in the BIBLE as entering into LOVING RELATIONSHIPS with God AND OTHERS. And out of our wounding we walk alone.

  76. DonaldN Sep 14th 2013

    I see this loneliness as being a soul issue. In the Spirit we are with God, he will never leave us nor forsake us. In the natural we can be surrounded by others, whether friends, family, people we know and don’t know. The loneliness comes from observing those around us in the natural and realizing they are “not where we are” on the level of personal relationship with Jesus. Many of them have made Him their savior, but few have made Him their Lord. Few follow Him in the way we do. They don’t want t hear what we have to say because they do not understand where we are coming from. Therefore, in our soul, our mind and emotions, we feel a desire for them to be more like us, but they are not, so we must turn to God and walk with God alone. Even surrounded by many we are still alone in our walk, yes, God is with us, but in the natural we are still alone.

  77. We live in a world where we do not fit, often in church groups where we do not fit and in a culture that is alien to the life of God….I have found it to be rare to find true fellowship as I have gone on with the Lord. Then of course I question myself as to why I am like that and if I have been deceived when everyone else seems to think or believe something else…..I also get “lonely for Jesus” Himself at times, when I begin to feel distance there for any reason….*for they looked for a city that has foundations, whose builder and maker is God*…..I do believe that loneliness is part of walking with God, just as Tozer has said….but I also wonder if it really might change before the coming of the Lord, when we have become a glorious church, having the same mind, and a unity of the Spirit? Something to look forward to perhaps. In the meantime, we press on…..

  78. watchful Sep 14th 2013

    Amen Donald.

    Barry, we feel lonely at times because of the fact that we are not making relationships an idol. Feeling lonely is no more a sin than feeling any other kind of pain. Expressing and acknowledging it is not at all the same thing as wallowing in it. And I would bet that a good many of us consider loneliness to be the smallest of prices we have paid if we have walked with Him a good while.

    I’m concerned that this is the kind of thing where the intellectual mind can get a bit silly with bible quotes and splitting hairs, and all the more reason we need to receive a HEART of flesh…….to replace the heart of stone. But we won’t start to ask for it until we realize our need of it, and often healing is involved. As I’m discovering, part of that means casting our cares on Him, but it would be difficult to do that if we are in a bind of thinking its a sin to have any cares. But our God is not heartless, thankfully, and He is willing and able to help us out of all our binds whatever they might be, and that without condemnation but with great graciousness. It’s one reason why I love Him and am able to come boldly to His throne of Grace.

  79. Daniel Sep 14th 2013

    Forgive me Andrew if I have gone to far, but the verse in Isaiah 66 seems to sum it up pretty well. I do not mean to tear down Michael or anyone else. My point is that such comments show an obvious lack of understanding. I have not suffered nearly as much as many on here, but reading a few comments its as if people are poking the wounds of their brothers and sisters.

    Also Barry it is true, you cannot take those you love with you: all will stand alone before the throne of God. In fact if you read Romans 14:10-12 it deals completely with what I am talking about.

  80. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    Putting lipstick on a pig or extinguishing it?

    QUOTE from Watchful
    I just want to say what a mistake it is to think that feelings and emotion only belong to the fallen nature, whereas in reality those things are not annihilated at the cross, but refined and sanctified, brought into submission but not extinguished. UNQUOTE

    Watchful, so “extinguished” does not mean “death to self” or “crucify your flesh”?
    The SOUL does NOT contain mind, will, emotions?
    The SOUL is NOT the wicked sin nature of mankind?

    And why do my brothers and sisters HAVE WOUNDS ?
    Did Jesus Christ take His stripes IN VAIN?

    Or you just have taken the time in your 20-40 year walk to be healed?

    Or perhaps, it is not the wounds that are being poked, but something else.

  81. Claudia Sep 14th 2013

    Why would not Yeshua be alone when in this world…..there was no one else like Him.

    Man will never satisfy the needs of a child of God. The loneliness you feel may not be what you have been taught it means. It may be an indicator of the shallowness that man has to offer. Once you have tasted the depths of God’s love…..pure JOY…..all others become somewhat less. I like what one poster above said regarding being alienated from this world. I most feel not alone when I am standing on some high peak….or when I am laying in tall meadow grass with no humans around….just listening to creation all around me. There is a vast difference between being alone and feeling rejected (lonely). My most favorite times are when I am alone…I crave it, because I know He is there.

    Don’t ever feel rejected….because to feel that….it might mean you are still craving what man offers, which is their acceptance. Is not Yeshua’s acceptance and love enough for you? Once you start eating and are addicted to the Bread of Yeshua….no other bread of man will be quite as satisfying. Why would you even desire something lesser? It is all about giving…..not receiving.

    The loneliness that I feel is because I am not yet like Him. Once I am….I will be able to give 100%. Let’s feel sorrow because those we share with reject that most perfect Gift offerred by God. Feel sorrow for them and their rejection of Yeshua’s Love.

    Barry Schmidt….all that you say occurs after all have been RESTORED….they, none of them after Restoration are what they are now. The loneliness that I think this group is talking about is from the false expectations that humans can love with the same depth that Yeshua does…..which they cannot….because they are not yet restored….which none of us are. Even our love that we give is not as Perfect as His. Once you experience His love, you become aware of the comparison.

    Yeshua was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief….but His sorrow was for what He saw in the future of those around Him, and His grief was for the same. Yeshua was NOT lonely. Those who follow Him and allow Him to fill them with His love, experience this same sorrow and grief for what they see around them….for they are no longer attached to the present world but are linked to the future….and they would have all see the same future and accept the Doorway that is offerred to it….a state of pure JOY.

    YES!…..Jda016…..There is no treasure like the treasure of intimacy with Christ. Welcome where ever Yeshua has placed you, and trust that He knows what He is doing in order to best conform you to Him.

    We should not expect a wage of any kind…even the wage of acceptance… in return for when we share, witness, or guide the sheep. In fact….just like Yeshau, we should not run from death….should it be required. The false sheppard who is hired will abandon the sheep….when he becomes afraid….and the sheep will be scattered.

  82. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    Good word Claudia. Amen.

  83. Linda in CA, USA Sep 14th 2013

    Thank you, Andrew. I guess I am normal then. Exactly what I have experienced. Yes, Christ is enough for me – I know that since I have him I am never truly alone. BUT – we are to have fellowship with others in the body of Christ instead of being lone strangers. Unfortunately, I have met no one near by who shares my understandings of a deeper walk with the Lord. Yet. So – I remain without fellowship (alone) where human companionship is concerned.

  84. Marion Sep 14th 2013

    Thank you Andrew. They are extremely comforting words from Tozer. My prayer for all who call upon the Name of the Lord is Phillipians 1:9-11.
    I am sure Tozer also prayed for all the brethren, even though this was his experience.
    It is my experience also, and I love how it gives me no other place to turn but to Him who is my Refuge,Strong Tower, my Hiding Place.
    Shalom and Grace in Yeshua

  85. Vicki Lynn Sep 14th 2013

    Maybe God has to have us isolated with him so we can become stronger more established, settled & totally believe what God says, is true.

    Just like Paul the Apostle. he certainly was isolated with God at the beginning.

  86. DonaldN Sep 14th 2013

    Claudia said, “The loneliness you feel …. may be an indicator of the shallowness that man has to offer.
    Claudia said “Don’t ever feel rejected….because to feel that….it might mean you are still craving what man offers, which is their acceptance.”

    I believe knowing you are rejected and feeling rejected are two different things. Feeling rejected would mean that the rejection has affected your emotions. I can know that I am rejected and not let it affect me.

    I also believe that those of you who speak against this idea of loneliness are confusing it with the emotional depression type of loneliness that the worldly people feel.

    This is not an emotional depression. It is more of simply knowing that you are alone in relation to others around you who do not have the walk with Christ that you have.
    It is like sitting in a group Bible study with many friends around you that are sharing their experiences and thoughts. You sit there quietly because you have been through what they are speaking of many years ago and have moved on to a much closer relationship and understanding of God that these others currently have not reached, and some quite possibly will never reach. At that moment you feel all alone, even surrounded by friends. This is not depressing at all. You simply turn your attention to God and continue to get even closer to Him.

  87. Averyl Sep 14th 2013

    Elijah got depressed, but he was OT, so that makes him different to us.

    John the Baptist’s cry “The voice of one crying in the wilderness, – “Prepare the way of the Lord”. Does that cry apply to us today?

  88. Tozer’s comments
    “His God-given instincts cry out for companionship with others of
    his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his absorptions in the love of Christ; and because with his circle of friends there are few who share his inner experiences, he’s forced to walk alone”

    The deeper we dig into God, the more prophetic we become, the more God opens His treasures to us. Sometimes we see way beyond where our fellow companions’ journey on their roads, even our friends, and like Jeremiah, who often had no success in getting the children of Israel to take any notice of God’s word through him, right to the end, it can be very ‘lonely’. Many saints will never see the fruit of their labours on earth. Like Rodney Francis said -constantly misunderstood and persecuted accordingly.

    It is also a loneliness because we identify with the father heart of God, identifying with his grief at our rebellion, our rejection of His direction and speaking to us, when He knows the whole plan for our lives. If we are willing, God will set us ‘apart’ for His purposes to be established and our human instinct is for close physical company and to cry out to ‘just fit in’ -but the call is strong so we realise the ‘cup’, we realise the cost and pain of the nails going into the wood. But the road is narrow and only few want to venture forth. So that sort of loneliness is a choice and of a cost and like the prophets of old, they are propelled forward to bear that ‘loneliness and separation -as some of us will be…….
    Bless you all

  89. Lightning Storm Sep 14th 2013

    Oh because I don’t AGREE with you all, I don’t understand.
    This is what you are saying and experiencing from the Webster’s dictionary:

    lone·ly
    adjective \ˈlōn-lē\

    : sad from being apart from other people

    : causing sad feelings that come from being apart from other people

    : not visited by or traveled on by many people
    lone·li·erlone·li·est
    Full Definition of LONELY
    1
    a : being without company : lone
    b : cut off from others : solitary
    2
    : not frequented by human beings : desolate
    3
    : sad from being alone : lonesome
    4
    : producing a feeling of bleakness or desolation
    — lone·li·ness noun
    *********************************************************

    This is what I’m saying and experiencing from the scriptures.

    [Luk 6:22-23 KJV] 22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.

    23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

    What part don’t I understand??

    I have been, and am, SEPARATED from the world……and obviously from the comments I get on this blog, not accepted by many who call themselves “brethren”………..BUT I TOTALLY ENJOY THE COMPANY (Presence) OF MY FATHER, MY SAVIOR, AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    That is a CROWD by the way…why should I be lonely?

    We have ALL ETERNITY in Heaven to have unlimited companionship with people and the unity of the Spirit of God WITHOUT THE HINDERANCES OF THE WICKED FLESH.

  90. Claudia Sep 15th 2013

    I know where you are coming from, Lightning Storm. I would suggest that the dictionary uses “people” to define lonely for a reason. Ask the question…what do people represent to each other? Usually for “normal” humans….it would be things such as “safety”…..”home”……”security”…….”acceptance”….etc. We have found all those things with Yeshua…..and yes….when the world senses that you are rejecting their standards, their normalicy….they revile you. It makes them feel more secure. It should only heighten your awareness for those things that are superior…..such as finding ways to love them more.

    Yes, DonaldN, the rejection of what you have to offer, should have no reflection on the vessel from which it was poured forth….if Yeshua is the One that is keeping us full of offerings.

    I also agree, we should not let our awareness of the differences between what we seek and other Brethren may be seeking….affect us….or our attitude towards them….we are hopefully all on the same Path.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with haveing a vast yearning hunger for the perfection that has been promised….perfection in all things.

  91. Lightning Storm Sep 15th 2013

    I totally agree Claudia. Amen.

  92. DonaldN Sep 15th 2013

    It is this very loneliness that throws him back upon God. His inability to find human companionship drives him to seek in God what he can find nowhere else.

    So, Lightning Storm and Claudia,
    If we were to us a different word that “loneliness” in this last statement by Tozer would you then agree that even you find it true.
    Do you not even whatsoever desire to meet with others who believe as you do, so you can have a pleasant and deep conversation with them about , and even perhaps walk with them and the Lord all together?
    Even the two of you seem to experience relief in the companionship of your agreement.

  93. DonaldN Sep 15th 2013

    All the other posters here seem to be against you, and not understand where you are at with your relationship with God. Perhaps you have reached a place that the rest of us cannot relate to.
    Do you feel like you are all alone in your faith. Do you feel like it is just you and God. Do you feel like there is no one to talk to concerning your level of faith? Just you and your Lord?

  94. Lightning Storm Sep 15th 2013

    What’s with this looking someplace else and having to GO BACK TO GOD?

    Why the need to look someplace else if your have all you need abiding in God?

    Why separate from God to the point you have to GO BACK TO HIM?

    Sorry…but I am not the only one who has never separated from abiding in Him and has never felt the need to look else where….abiding in Him is all there is in Life for me.

    HE IS MY LIFE…HE IS ALL I NEED.

    I am acquainted with many others who say the same thing.

  95. Inspired Sep 15th 2013

    It is in feeling we are separated from God that we have loneliness. Intimacy with the Lord does not leave one feeling lonely, but fulfilled.

  96. Andrew Sep 15th 2013

    “Alone-ness” with God is a better term.

    Nit-picking be gone.

    -Andrew Strom

  97. Inspired Sep 15th 2013

    Yeshua said, I came to give you life and that you may have it more abundantly.
    All Pauls epistles start with grace/favor and peace/wholeness from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. if I have loneliness then something is lacking and not whole.
    Loneliness is an enemy and He prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies.

  98. Andrew Sep 15th 2013

    Jesus was “alone” with God.

    Please prove to me he wasn’t.

    Bless you!

    -Andrew

  99. Inspired Sep 15th 2013

    If Jesus was with God even from the beginning so John says then He was not alone and did not feel lonely.

  100. Mega-WOW!!!

  101. Lightning Storm Sep 15th 2013

    AMEN Inspired.

    I can see that now. Separated, but never ALONE.
    We are to be COMMUNING with the 3 PERSONS of the Trinity that LIVE INSIDE OF US.
    Called FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD.

    Thanks for pointing that out, Inspired.

    I’m not only NOT LONELY….BUT I AM NEVER ALONE!

    Amen again. That is so simple, yet got snookered into thinking like the world.

  102. Laurie J Sep 15th 2013

    Andrew, I think that aloneness with God is an excellent way of putting. Reading many of these comments is an encouragement to me. A number of years ago I had a dream in which I was driving down a dark road to my home, and I was the only one on that road, but I wasn`t afraid. As I woke up, I heard these words from the Lord: “You are on the Highway of Holiness, the road less traveled.” It is the narrow road which leads to the narrow gate into the Holy of Holies, the place where God is all in all to us. I personally do not feel rejected by others, but I do know that many feel that I have rejected them as the Lord has separated me from them. The body of Christ is so in my heart and I intercede for them daily. Maybe another word for this could be : Being separated unto God. Laurie J

  103. Laurie J Sep 15th 2013

    Andrew, I think that aloneness with God is an excellent way of putting it. Reading many of these comments is an encouragement to me. A number of years ago I had a dream in which I was driving down a dark road to my home, and I was the only one on that road, but I wasn`t afraid. As I woke up, I heard these words from the Lord: “You are on the Highway of Holiness, the road less traveled.” It is the narrow road which leads to the narrow gate into the Holy of Holies, the place where God is all in all to us. I personally do not feel rejected by others, but I do know that many feel that I have rejected them as the Lord has separated me from them. The body of Christ is so in my heart and I intercede for them daily. Maybe another word for this could be : Being separated unto God. Laurie J

  104. Lightning Storm Sep 15th 2013

    So people, correct all my above posts to say:

    I am never lonely and I am never alone.

    I am separated from the world and still walking in the world among people of every color, creed, gender, religion, belief system, but not trying to find life or love or acceptance or safety or security in those people.

    (Definitely not trying to find people who AGREE WITH ME)

    God is faithful to fulfill His promises and He promised to be the PROVIDER OF ALL MY NEEDS and I can state that He has done this in me.

    I have enough Trust in His Nature that I have said and can say again and again:

    WHATEVER it takes to conform me to the image of Jesus Christ…….BRING IT ON LORD……Take Your HOT COALS to my soul and BURN YOUR IMAGE UPON IT.

  105. I could not have describe how I feel any better. That was word for word how I feel. I call it being in the wilderness where God is leading me and teaching me and no one can possible understand unless the go through it themselves. But I wouldn’t trade it for anything. It is when I feel most dependent upon HIM and closest to HIM.

  106. re Mother Teresa – the loneliness or aloneness of her walk

    From the time God touched Mother Teresa’s heart to serve the poorest of poor in Calcutta, she continued to do the toughest job anyone could possibly do. And she did it to her dying day (in her 90’s).

    Mother Teresa struggled with depression. When you wrestle with the devil surrounded by human misery, you might have good cause to be depressed! But putting this into perspective, working in the back streets and gutters of Calcutta, tending to the outcast and the dying, in the midst of unspeakable depravity, poverty and thus human suffering, might we all at times not doubt God or be depressed?

    Certainly Mother Teresa took on the suffering of the world just as her Lord had done. And she demonstrated a kind of faith that few ever experience and hers was a faith that will be a lasting witness to the world

    WHY? As she wrote to her spiritual advisor, she submitted to God. “I accept,” she wrote, “not in my feelings—but with my will, the Will of God—I accept His will.”

    So it was hard, it was difficult, she got depressed, she got tired, she often felt alone, but she chose the ‘narrow’ road and there is a cost. Her aloneness or (spiritual) loneliness, was not because of any lack of people around –several million people in her face every hour of the day, a supportive staff, and world NGO agencies eventually supporting her missions financially. She was a successful missionary at the end! But yet she felt alone and got depressed because of the cost of complete surrender to God and His calling. As she said “Not how I feel, not my will but God’s will”. (Some days she may well have wanted to be alone from all those millions of people in her face every day!)

    It was not lack of people in her life that made her feel alone and depressed but the call on her life and her subsequent unfailing obedience to it . Mother Teresa took that narrow door –the way of the cross.

    God bless all -great talkback.

  107. amen and amen and amen

  108. Barry Schmidt Sep 15th 2013

    Here is the heart of the God/man Christ Jesus laid bare:
    In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. (Hebrews 5:7, 8 NASB)

    But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people. All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying, (Psalms 22:6, 7 NASB)

    Turn to me and be gracious to me, For I am lonely and afflicted. (Psalms 25:16 NASB)

    For my father and my mother have forsaken me, But the Lord will take me up. (Psalms 27:10 NASB)

    Because of all my adversaries, I have become a reproach, Especially to my neighbors, And an object of dread to my acquaintances; Those who see me in the street flee from me. I am forgotten as a dead man, out of mind; I am like a broken vessel. (Psalms 31:11, 12 NASB)

    My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague; And my kinsmen stand afar off. (Psalms 38:11 NASB)
    Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. (Psalms 41:9 NASB)
    There you have it! Jesus the lonely!
    No servant is above his Master. It is enough to become like his master .
    Was Jesus lonely? He Himself testified in the Psalms of His loneliness.
    Do we who have renounced this world to follow the Man Od Sorrows think we can escape the fellowship of sharing in His loneliness?
    Yet we are not alone in ours”alone NESS”

    How many times at gatherings and party’s people flee from like I had the plague when they discovered I was a man of God. How I felt the sting of this loneliness in my heart . How many men in the Christian community whom I longed to enjoy sweet fellowship even over common subjects of men- yet they would avoid me- never for being obnoxious or unloving or judgemental or condescending- yet only because my countenance from walking with Jesus – itself seemed to remind them of what they didn’t want to be reminded of- thus instead of companionship they avoided me- this too is an unavoidable loneliness. Yet I am always the first one they seek out when in trouble, or in crisis or when ready to make Jesus the passion of their lives.

  109. ValleyAnt Sep 15th 2013

    This is a word spoken in season for me. Just about two weeks ago, the Lord began connecting me with likeminded Christians. Tozer said, “He searches for the friends upon whose garments he can detect the smell of myrrh and aloes and cassia.” I’ve definitely searched for anyone who had on them even a trace of the Fragrance of Christ.

  110. ValleyAnt Sep 15th 2013

    Jane, so very true.

    Devon, you’re right on about the reaction of Christians and especially pastors. Amen to the tithe vs. almsgiving.

    Chris, you make a good point about the ‘7,000’ who didn’t seem to show up at Mt. Carmel. Elijah sure didn’t press God more about their whereabouts.

    Cecily, I agree about Tozer’s writings. After I encountered the Lord in ’98, the first book I was lucky enough to read was Tozer’s ‘The Pursuit of God’.

    Anne, you wrote: “We need to get a network going so that we might be in touch and relationship with our brothers and sisters of this level of call.” I agree that this may well be a good time to begin something like that. Who would start it?

    Donna, God bless you.

    Will read more comments later. Goodnight all, and God bless.

  111. Marilyn Crow Sep 15th 2013

    I have so appreciated the different comments & also Andrew`s guiding of the conversation with such a sensitive topic.

    `Alone – ness.` Yes, how wondrous it is to be there with the Lord. Yet what a `terrible` way in it is. To be `stripped,` of everything
    (a letting go of their claim on our lives) till there is none but Jesus only.

    `There is a place of quiet rest, near to the heart of God.
    A place where sin can not molest, near to the heart of God.
    O Jesus, blessed Redeemer, sent from the heart of God,
    Hold us who WAIT before you, near to the heart of God.`

    Once there `alone,` with the Lord & having experienced that `alone – ness,` from everything, then there comes an awareness that that is the Master`s desire to keep us close to Himself.

    However from there, as we `wait,` on His bidding He then sends us to serve others. This is the wondrous School of the Spirit, as He teaches us…

    How to know His voice more,
    How to help & encourage others,
    How to be a good listener & then see what the Holy Spirit would have us say in the situation,
    How to reach out to fallen humanity with Christ`s compassion,
    How to …….

    `Alone – ness,` but yet abiding….secure, nourished & fruitful…
    in Christ.

    Marilyn.

  112. I felt to further brief you on Mother Teresa, as her writings below here equally matched Tozer’s words also. And you can see clearly their purpose in the last sentences.

    The book Mother Teresa; Come Be My Light, The Private Writings of the Saint of Calcutta was published on the tenth anniversary of her death.

    Consider this passage in which she asks of God, “What are you doing, my God, to one so small?” In a letter to her superior, Father Picachy she writes, “Thank God all went well yesterday, Sisters, children, the lepers and sick and our poor families have all been so happy and contented this year. A real Christmas. Yet within me – nothing but darkness, conflict, loneliness so terrible …”

    In another letter she writes to Father, “It has been so very hard. That terrible longing keeps growing – and I feel as if something will break in me one day – and then that darkness, that loneliness, that feeling of terrible aloneness. Heaven from every side is closed … gone is the love for anything and anybody. – and yet – I long for God.”

    Another passage reads, “… Aloneness is so great – from within and from without I find no one to turn to. He has taken not only spiritual – but even the human help. I can speak to no one and even if I do – nothing enters my soul.– If there is hell – this must be one. How terrible it is to be without God – no prayer – no faith – no love. The only thing that still remains – is the conviction that the work is His – that the Sisters and the Brothers are His. And I cling to this as the person having nothing clings to the straw – before drowning …”

    Much of what she described in her letters sounds like a form of depression, but rather than impacting her like major depression, it was expressed in the spiritual realm.

    She quietly carried a cross of interior darkness, yet never stopped doing her good work and her goal was to bring light to those living in darkness.

    THE CRUNCH:
    In the end, she understands that without her interior darkness, without knowing such a longing for love and the pain of being unloved, and without this radical identification with the poor, she would not have won over their trust and their hearts to the extent that she did.

    Can we compare this to Paul’s thorn in the flesh which kept him humble and reliant on God.

  113. Jilord Sep 15th 2013

    Dear Lightning Storm and others of his like mindedness, why do you come across as so desperately needing to prove you are right? It seems too, that maybe you are surrounded with people, so therefore, may have never experienced loneliness or aloneness. Has this article and the agreeing comments hit nerves of insecurities, wounding, inferiorities and so forth? It seems as though you really need “us” to agree with what you are saying, contrary to the majority of posts here. If it is acceptance you need, we all can do that, but without having to agree with your comments, so please, stop trying to convert us to your way of thinking. Let’s agree to disagree, blessing one another, whilst continuing along our paths . . . We are not trying to win browny points or get followers here. We are merely expressing our experiences in line with the Word of God to those who are like minded with a specific path as expressed in A W Tozer’s beautiful, encouraging and inspirational article. Blessings to you all!

  114. Inspired Sep 15th 2013

    Jilord,
    If what was spoken was taken as no one is trying to win brownie points here from either side but allowance was made to speak ones measure of faith then I suppose all would go well. I do not need no acceptance, because like you and others I am accepted in the beloved and this is my reality. I agree with being alone with God, but not being lonely. In my EXPERIENCE with mankind, I have felt lonely, but my experience is not my reality, which says that I am not to fear for he will NEVER forsake or leave me. My reality is that I am in Christ who is seated at the right hand of God and I lack no good thing. I can live by Gods grace/favor which is sufficient or I can live by my experiences which are just that.
    Which one of us can breathe without God? None of us, because we do not have our own life and are dependent on God, who has NOT abandoned us to the grave yet. Therefore I am not lonely or alone, and while there is breath in the body it should praise the Lord for that very breath that gives life. No-I am not lonely when I have been given life and breath to do even this.
    In the famous parable of the sower, what distinguishes the yield of the seed is the soil of the heart. It was the same seed, but the result of the sowing, is discovered in how the message is incorporated into the heart.
    Ask a man how are they doing and they will give you their experiences, and not the reality that they are alive so God/life/love has not abandoned them. Yet when reality of this is seen no matter the storm or experience, then this reality is valued most and not the experience of the storm. I am ever learning that I can drown/perish in my experiences or I can place my focus back on Christ who speaks to the storm and says Peace, be still.

  115. watchful Sep 15th 2013

    I have to go to work so no time to give to this this morning……it’s difficult communicating in internet format sometimes, we do our best to convey our meaning but some don’t seem to want to try to understand what it is we are really trying to say. They would rather try to nail a person on technicalities it seems. How I have experienced this “loneliness” is as a deep longing for God, and it is usually a precursor to a very precious time with Him, song in the night is given, His presence, etc. We know how it feels, God knows what it really is. It says in the scripture that “He sets the lonely in families”, how wonderful, even in the OT He is not chiding anyone for feelings of loneliness but meets their need. Praise our wonderful God!

    I want to try and address the “sentiment” issue later, God willing. May the Lord bless His people, amen.

  116. DonaldN Sep 15th 2013

    I see a definite lack of love in the posts on both sides of this discussion. Seem everyone (and I include myself, so please forgive me) trying to pound the opposition with words, both theirs and God’s.
    If we would make sure we are acting in LOVE toward each other perhaps we would phrase things in a way that would help them to understand, and leave out the condemnation if they do not.
    I believe love is more important than convincing the others that I am right.

  117. Brother Andrew, Thank you for this site and for your openness; and thanks to each of you who have written, as I have found in many of your sharings, nuggets of wisdom, gleaned in your sufferings and set apartness unto God (Psalm 4:3).. more gold on the road! After reading your entries for 2 days, I believe our Loving God gave me the message below to encourage each of you who can receive it. Remember prophecy is only as pure as the prophet…so run it by Jesus. Be blessed and thank you for selling out to
    “our Bridegroom to come” having His fervor, compassion and love!! DS

    “The godly whereabouts of each one of you is known by Me and I cherish My brotherhood with each one of you, for I did form you in or Mother’s womb and instill within you, as I did Jeremiah, a greater desire to be found of Me. Yes, the course can be difficult at best, but great endurance, as a by product, never hurt anyone! Yes, now you cherish Me above all others and that is what the walk and the call are all about. Yes, if you take seriously My Words that I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee and that I will care for all your needs according to My riches in glory, you will be able to run the race with more ease, and less self doubts that it is really the voice of Abba that you hear, dictated and written upon your “searching for all truth and deeper love” heart and desire to please Me foremost in your call.

    I have given each one of you a measure of grace that you might walk the course with more steadfastness and loyal devotion and without caring what those of the world think, even when you are spurned and persecuted and saddened over what they are missing, and that many can not see the woods for the trees. But I did not give you a spirit of disappointment either, My sons and My daughters, but love, power and a sound mind in Christ. Have I not many times spoken to your fluttering heart and told you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and to press on and upward into the higher calling in Christ Jesus and to not look back as to what you may have had to leave behind? Remember, My storm tossed ones, that My love shall not take thee where My grace cannot keep thee. You sing the chorus, “He’s all I need”, but them self doubt and fear of deception comes in and causes you to need My greater validations and many reassuring confirmations, as the way is not always easy, or the path always the clearest, but that is why it is called a walk of faith and a place of deep trust in a Living Saviour who has gone before you to teach you the higher way and how to endure persecution and long suffering, and to look at the fruits, and not at the pain. The pain will do a deep work of crucifixion and then be healed by more of My restorative love, goodness, authority, truth, and anointing, and then you shall be like the mother who holds her new baby in her arms and forgets the birthing process.

    I see all your frustrations; and I see all the confusion; and I see all the loyal devotion and refreshing liberties that have replaced a life of bondage and self centeredness…for whom the Son sets free is free indeed. As you press onward and upward, keep in mind that a bruised reed I shall not break nor a smoking flax put out, and know that I truly do bottle all of your tears and that your every pain is felt by Me. You are much loved and favored and protected in and by The Father ,The Son and The Holy Spirit. What more could you ask for? If I can fix the bird with the broken wing and let it fly again, I can do the same and even more for each one of you, even as you fly like the soaring eagle! I know when you have suffered enough and I see that your rewards shall be great, and nothing done in my love and authority and anointing are ever wasted, so pick up your cross and follow Me and sing a bridal love song of your devotion to Jesus… along the way!
    Shalom My Sweethearts and My beautiful and most precious Bride to come!!
    via Donna S.

  118. 100% Zululander Sep 15th 2013

    To understand Tozer you must understand the man & to understand the man you need to read his books otherwise you all just answer words with more words like a bunch of lawyers using the Bible as your legal reference.

  119. Claudia Sep 15th 2013

    DonaldN, I am not sure you can say that Lighting Storm and I have experienced relief in the companionship of agreement. Words written are often brought meaning to them from the reader who reads them….and that meaning may not really be there.

    As to your question: “Do you not even whatsoever desire to meet with others who believe as you do, so you can have a pleasant and deep conversation with them about , and even perhaps walk with them and the Lord all together?”

    I cannot answer for Lightning Storm. My desire to meet with other people physically would be on the level of working with them to achieve some task that would be beneficial, for God’s Kingdom. Feeding the poor, sheltering them, clothing them…working together to spread the LAMB’s Truth….just gathering in general to work in accomplishing a task….or helping someone who needs help. I truly have no need for human companionship to validate me….because “me” is not important. I have never cared whether or not people have understood me. I would rather seek to understand them. God has surrounded me with Himself, He has met all my needs. His depths are all I desire and seek.

    I do not avoid those people meetings (such as on this site, or in personal life) of pleasant and deep conversation….because I love learning and knowledge….and one never knows from where it may come….tho…it is rare, because most are pretty consumed with the cares of the world they find themselves in now…..as apposed to analizing everything to include the past, present and future in it….as I often do. Such as seeing a dead silver grey tree with the sun shining off of it. Hubby would see firewood. I see a past, present, and a future..all connected….the spirit of the tree, even in death giving beauty.

  120. Andrew Sep 15th 2013

    I have often posted inspiring and thought-provoking things on this site – only to have them attacked and “nit-picked” to death.

    So it never surprises me any more when it happens.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom.

  121. Claudia Sep 15th 2013

    I would not be concerned. What you have posted does provoke thoughts, and those thoughts are expressed as they come from minds of many sets and experiences. I would think that it a good thing….as long as it harmonizes with His Word…..not our expectations.

    I am reminded of the several blind men who each were put in a fixed position at various parts of the elephant….not ever having seen or heard of an elephant before. Each blind man after feeling with his hands the part to which he was assigned…than discussed what this beast must be like. Can you imagine the various comments….one exponding upon the tusks, another on the trunk, another on the tail, another on the foot, and another on the ears.

    Because they each received inspiration from the elephant (that which was posted) according to their own senses……should they all be in agreement? Does not the differing impressions add to the whole?

    Considering how vast YHWH is……and all the various worshippers who come through Yeshua…..I would expect nothing else, but differences….which some would call “nit picking” because those differences may not be the same impressions that they received.

    Was this post about understanding Tozer….or loneliness….and what loneliness is……in the walk with Yeshua???

    I guess it is nitpicking that when I read of John the Baptist crying in the wilderness…..I never once thought of him as sobbing with tears. I assumed he was crying out for knowledge, understanding, repentance, and the Glory of God.

    YHWH created each individual unique….that uniqueness will cause them to experience, feel, and define, their walk and certain terms according to their position. That does not take away from the truth of any of those who come at it in a differing position……as long as it does not violate the Word of God.

  122. Matthew 5:12
    Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

  123. Laurie J Sep 16th 2013

    Donna S, thank for posting that beautiful word. It resonates in my heart as being from the Lord, because it confirms much of what He has already spoken to me. Laurie J

  124. Lightning Storm Sep 16th 2013

    ha ha ha Claudia…..I love the blind man example!
    I will remember that in the future.

    So true, so true.

  125. 100% Zululander Sep 16th 2013

    Claudia, nothing Tozer said violates Gods word. People nit pick because they don’t understand the man & his life in God & argue words like a lawyer. Those who do know, don’t argue & find fault, but have an inner sense of “knowing”. So if you don’t understand, it may be best to just…ssshhhhhh, then if you have the tail,don’t argue with the man with the trunk, rather listen to him you’ll get wiser.
    Tozer understood elephants better than most of us I think 🙂

  126. ValleyAnt Sep 16th 2013

    Amen to so many comments.

    Claudia, nice poem. I guess poetry isn’t reserved for poets alone. I really like this part: “What’s to come is yet to be. I need you HERE…” He needs us in the here and now. That’s beautiful.

    Averyl, I hope you get connection to those who will fellowship in spirit and truth there in your area of NZ.

    Robert C. Johnson, thanks for the word. As simple as that passage is, it’s the same one the Lord brought to me some days ago. You said, “We are all being connected and encouraged right now.” True. The season is changing.

    Dawn, amen to that word. And for those not yet gathered under His wings, “Grace upon Grace”. Amen. Amen.

    Watchful, you said, “That feeling of loneliness is really a longing for the Lord, I find – it is deep calling unto deep.” That really is true. I found that the things I longed for in loneliness, I longed for in the Lord. Whenever I thought about my future wife, I found myself simultaneously thinking of the Lord, and sometimes when I spent time with God or found myself desiring Him, I found myself simultaneously desiring my future wife. It’s on time that we’re talking about loneliness now: just the past several days, I found myself suddenly feeling severely lonely (as regards my wife) as if I was choking almost. It’s at this time that He’s setting me among likeminded Christians who hate ‘modern church’ and who also seek “a city not made with hands whose Builder and Maker is God”. Amen.

    Pr. Michael, and Lightning Storm, Christianity is probably the only ‘profession’ (pun intended) in which CEOs (ministers) are ‘most likely to not succeed’. Who can reason with the facts or with those who’re unreasonable? The Bible not only says that Jesus would be full of joy (Ps. 45:7) but that He’d be full of sorrow and ACQUAINTED with grief (Isa. 53:3). “But that’s the OT”? In the NT, Jesus displayed hatred, anger, and once a whip to drive people out of the house of God. Are those fruits of the Spirit? “Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep” (Rom. 12:15). If we aren’t to weep or be sorrowful, we would be in sin to sorrow with the sorrowful. So, is sorrow a fruit of the Spirit? No, but the Spirit feels sorrow too, and we aren’t just to grow His fruits but bear His burdens with Him also. The whole Creation, even your everyday lives and the passages of the Bible you use to certify your belief, refutes your doctrine; you just don’t know it yet.

    Gary, hopefully God will give you a home among His People on earth before you finally go Home. It is His will: “How GOOD and how PLEASANT it is when brethren dwell together in unity… For there, the Lord [always manifests] the blessing– Life (satisfaction, fulfillment, fellowship, REST) forever” (Ps. 133). Amen.

    I’ve only read up till Gary’s comment and will continue reading and responding later today. Goodnight all.

  127. Claudia Sep 16th 2013

    Zulander….Your post is a bit confusing to me. Who is arguing and finding fault? Who said Tozer’s word violated God’s word??? Not I. Are you making this into a competition, to judge who understands and who does not….how sad? I would suggest that you do not understand that the tail and the head are both a part of the same animal. All parts make up the whole. To get an accurate picture from within the Body of Christ should not all the parts be as important as the other?

    The topic was not about Tozer….it was about loneliness throwing one back upon God….a never ending cycle of ever increasing knowlege of God. Were not we asked to comment on the topic??? Or perhaps just those who truly understand, should comment? Or perhaps, only those who are in agreement should be allowed to comment. Should the request for comments been phrased: “If you agree, please comment.”…? That is not what it said.

    I was not referring to Tozer when refering to the elephant story. I was referring to this list’s respondents examining the topic subject…we are all those who are examining what ever the list topic posted is. The topic (Elephant) this time is “loneliness in the walk with Yeshua”. Each is expressing how they interpret the loneliness experienced within the walk with God……and we are all blind in that we cannot see within the mind of others, but can only read the words given on the list by the posters….which each person uses the best they can….but being words they cannot always accurately communicate what is being thought.

    Also, according to our own experiences in the matter that Tozer speaks of….we may have experienced and examined different aspects of it……don’t you think? I want to hear from each person, not just the one with the trunk…..so please don’t prevent the others from describing what they have by shishing them. I am not yet at that point where I know it all….and still want to learn.

  128. ValleyAnt Sep 16th 2013

    I was going to bed when an old song I know by Fernando Ortega came on called ‘Traveler’. I found it on YouTube and am posting a link: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGrPIhJdMRU

    This song reminded me of where Gary comments above of desiring a home and to finally have the Lord return. Ortega’s music is always humble and unassuming, unpretentious and ‘un-added to’, and I hope, Gary, that this song will be a blessing.

  129. Marilyn Crow Sep 16th 2013

    Valley Ant,

    Thank you so much for that heart moving song. We are all `travellers,` so good night with ….

    `Heavenly Father remember the travellers….`

    `…to Him who is able to keep us from falling & present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,`
    (Jude 24)

    How awesome if our God…. Marilyn.

  130. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    It’s true Andrew, we can stuck into “fault-finding” gear so easily, I had a time when I was, but the Holy Spirit is not like that, thankfully.

    With regard to sentiment, I have had some experience with someone who in effect thought that in the spirit we are like unfeeling robots, and have seen the problems that arise because of thinking like that, I bought into it for a while and being stuck in fault finding gear was one of the problems associated with it. But the Lord told me that it is not that all feeling is dead, it is more that He will now rule over our emotions. It’s the same with the mind, having the mind of Christ doesn’t mean we cease having thoughts altogether, it means that He will now rule over our thoughts. Where He is ruling we should become more gracious, not less. I mentioned fervent prayer I think, and also consider that Jesus cried when Lazarus died, and that we are told to rejoice with someone who is rejoicing and weep with someone who is weeping. Many other examples in the bible as well, and hope this is of some service.

  131. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    Many good thoughts being expressed, I’m just catching up………unless I’m mistaken the bottom line seems to be that anyone who hasn’t felt this loneliness probably hasn’t tasted of the wilderness yet, it is just part and parcel of what we travel through. Thanks for sharing that beautiful song Valley Ant, it sure touches on the poignancy of what we are talking about here. Amen and amen Marilyn, have a blessed sleep.

  132. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    Agree with your thought about lawyers Zululander. Have been thinking about that lately and how that is not the right approach to the scriptures, something important is lacking when we do that. We can study and study to find out what the right hoops are to jump through, and jump through them all and then some, holding that expectation over others, but still miss God! That was exactly the problem with the Pharisees it seems to me. It reflects the clanging gong problem I think, without Love we will miss the mark, we will miss what God is after and who He is no matter how many ducks we have in a row. Help us Father…

  133. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    P.S.: genuine walking in the Spirit is not deadness, it is more life than we ever had before, resurrection life. I just read this morning where after His resurrection Jesus ate food with the apostles to prove that He wasn’t a dead ghost but truly alive, and of course we know His corpse was nowhere to be found, swallowed up by life.

  134. Inspired Sep 16th 2013

    Agree with your last article Watchful. This is what I have been trying to say. If Father pulls us into the wilderness then he is giving life and we are not alone or lonely as there is continual communion. If the enemy pulls us into his camp then there is death, loneliness and an experience of feeling alone.Why? Because the enemy is trying to kill the Christ in you, yet when Father pulls you, there is life and a building up of life. It is as if you never see the old man dying because the new man powerfully comes forth and has constant communion with the Father. God is life, not death. The serpent will try to kill the Christ in you or keep him on the cross within you, when Father resurrects the Christ in us, which causes us to be over comers.

  135. Inspired Sep 16th 2013

    Claudia,
    Agree with you and was asking the same question myself. Why is it not o.k to be provoked to speak something different as long as it harmonizes with the word. The scripture tells us that in all our getting to get UNDERSTANDING– not more knowledge or revelation but understanding of what has been given.

  136. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    Suffering is real and it is necessary in order to develop the peaceable fruit of righteousness, things such as patience and humility, etc and for other purposes in the mystery of God and the things He is working. I would never negate or belittle or mock the suffering of anyone, much less those who are carrying their cross and suffering for the sake of following Christ, but only encourage them to keep trusting and carry on………because joy will come in the morning! The amount of time it takes is so different from person to person and the details of each one’s battle are unique as well, if there is some way to get there faster I would like to know about it truly. Many of us wasted so many years being led down the garden path on a wild goose chase in the false religious system. Sometimes I think even the time it takes depends on the grace of God as well in the sense that some are given more grace for His specific purposes and so get there faster, or maybe some of us are just more stubborn cases, born that way but didn’t ask to be. Who knows? God knows. Who is anybody to judge me and who am I to judge anybody else. If the offering is acceptable to God, that’s what matters, and it IS accepted, not based on what one doesn’t have but only on what we have. The widow who had such little, in God’s eyes put in more than others, because she gave 100% of it. That made me weep and has set me free of the burden of expectations placed on me by others. Some have more, some have less, that’s just a reality and that’s why we should not think of ourselves more highly than we ought. And also why we have to get the plank out of our own eyes first, amen, bless the Lord!

  137. Inspired Sep 16th 2013

    Watchful,
    The widow woman gave all she had– so did God. Isn’t this what Yeshua was trying to show us in comparison to God?
    That is the definition of love-to give your full advantage.
    Yet even then life and love have to flow forth through us and not we work to have this.
    Can anyone of us pull a plank out of our own eyes? Are we not given new eyes to see? New ears to hear? legs that are not lame, and the dead resurrected?
    Wasn’t this His mission? To open the eyes etc…
    There is only one righteousness that is superior and that is Gods, and He even imputes this to us as a gift.
    If I am suffering then it is because I want it my way and not His. Even the apostles who were beheaded and hung upside down, REJOICED in their suffering.
    Where are they which see giants as grasshoppers?

  138. 100% Zululander Sep 16th 2013

    Claudia I think you missed what Tozer was trying to express & you certainly missed what I was saying.
    No matter, be blessed

  139. Gordon N Sep 16th 2013

    The Lion of Judah, the eagle eye of God comes as a Lamb….a servant. Jesus depends on God and God alone. A Disciples has power of God to minister and he depends on God and God alone through Christ Jesus, the Name above all names. The Christian Church-a-holics do not depend on God and God alone by the name of Jesus Christ and Christ alone. Most are simply stupid and ignorance BECAUSE they want Control …….the bewitched. Eve wanted CONTROL … God is GOOD and only GOOD is in CONTROL. GOD is! GOD is Good Orderly Direction! There is NO Other! The Few that truly that are given a Pass depend on God for their all and all. For most Church, Christianity is just a habit, a convenience, just a way to live a more peaceful life ….get along with others, have friends, Control their families …all using/hiding behind the name of God.

    There is no Basic Training, no Jesus Character Training, little or no power of God as a Disciple here in America. There is the magic of Satan in the Churches dressed up as a light of God. People on the streets come to Christ, grow to learn how corrupt the Christian Churches are here in America as a whole. The Christian Church/Ministry is BIG, BIG Business ………not depending on God but who ever they can con; the ministers being conned themselves.

  140. Claudia Sep 16th 2013

    GordenN; Once again….amongst some well stated words (not all),….you again blame Eve!

    Gen.3:6 “…..And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband WITH HER; and he did eat.”

    My understanding of “WITH HER” is that Adam was right there with Eve. He was also equally deceived and equally disobedient to what YHWH had commanded. My feelings are that I sure wish Adam had been the stronger of the two….and had said, “NO! This is against YHWH’s Will!” But…..he did not….he was equally as weak and disobedient as was Eve.

    Not only did he not restrain Eve…..but than in front of YHWH when confronted…..he committed the shame of not admitting his equal culpability and even went so far as to blame Eve, and the fact that YHWH gave her to him….blaming YHWH! (Gen 3:12). So, I guess in Adam’s mind it was YHWH’s fault also. Adam’s sin was more than disobeying YHWH. It magnified into not accepting responsibility for his own actions…blaming someone else. Demonstrating utterly that he did not take the leadership role with Eve…..he was lacking. So YHWH cursed him with the vary thing that Adam refused initially.

    May I suggest that maybe one of the reasons that YHWH assigned to Adam from that point onward the role of leader….was so that he may grow with practice into what he was lacking from the beginning??? Accepting responsibility for his actions. Which he did not….so YHWH may have thought it fitting that from this point onward Adam and all men will be responsible for not only their actions but of the women under them also. A much greater responsibility.

    You see….leadership is not always the prize role! Only a man of pride would consider it such.

    Eve said nothing when confronted by YHWH. She accepted her part, and she did not blame Adam for not preventing her.

    I do believe there is much to learn from Adam and Eve. Eve was made from Adam and was equal to him. Both were equally responsible to obey YHWH and were equally commanded to replenish the earth and subdue it.

    “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” “……..and they shall be one flesh.”

    Is there any inequality in this statement taken right out of Genesis, Chapter 2? I would suggest that “one” is one, and cannot be divided into unequal lesser portions. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

    It was not until after Adam refused to take responsibility for his own actions that YHWH in HIS wisdom made Adam hereafter, responsible for the women. I cannot tell you how glad I am that everything I may do will ultimately be at the foot of the man that is over me!!!!! 😉 I cannot tell you how I much prefer birthing children with pain instead of being responsible for the men in my life!!! 😉 All I have to do is serve them….I do not bear their guilt upon me.

  141. Claudia Sep 16th 2013

    Yes, Inspired; Knowledge and Revelation are worth seeking, but without understanding, they are like coins that the marketplace won’t accept. Or like coins that we don’t know where to spend them.

    Wisdom comes when it all sorts out….and Yeshua’s Guiding Hand will do that in His timing for each uniquely different tender plant growing towards the LIGHT.

  142. Averyl Sep 16th 2013

    The “crying” John the Baptist did was akin to the town criers od old, – shouting.

    The point I was trying to reach was his message “Prepare the way of the Lord”

    This reminds me of the preparation of His Bride.
    John went on to say that part of this process involves every mountain being brought low & every valley exalted.
    Doesn’t this mean aiming towards a level playing field among God’s people?

    I’m not trying to nitpick but to increase our knowledge of what He requires of us.

  143. Inspired Sep 16th 2013

    Averyl,
    Agree for level playing field or level headed.
    Mountain/high minded/pride being brought low and the valley/humble being exalted. Then maybe all men can have all things in common. But there is John/grace for all this that we come into the fulness of Christ/life, joy.

  144. Gordon N. Sep 16th 2013

    As-Usual ………someone points a finger at the Prophet …and says, “He is blaming Eve.” That is not the point at all. Understanding comes only from God. I certainly cannot give it to you.

  145. DonaldN Sep 16th 2013

    I really think that if you all knew the truth about the doctrine of the Trinity and the comparison of man/woman and Jesus and His bride, then you could also understand the truth concerning what is being said here.

  146. watchful Sep 16th 2013

    Inspired, I’m not sure I understand all that you are addressing to me, but I’ll just try to respond and hope it answers some of your concerns…… What Jesus said about the poor widow was not comparing to God, maybe have another look and see if you catch what I was trying to say with that, He was definitely comparing her offering to others who were more “wealthy” than her. Amen to rejoicing in the midst of suffering, myself I seem to still be burning away some flesh so not there yet, for me the rejoicing still comes in the morning most of the time. Suffering is a big topic, there are different kinds of suffering for different good reasons, I know you wouldn’t consider that the apostles were suffering because they wanted their own way. Agree with you about the plank! Was talking about that very thing with a friend today. We can’t remove our planks ourselves any more than we can remove the specks of others, and I believe that was Jesus’ point, or one of them. He seemed to be addressing presumption if I’m not mistaken.

    Amen, Claudia, very good point that you are sharing about adding understanding to knowledge and revelation. And also to wrap it in a little love and grace while we’re at it! or at the very least get to where we can refrain from bad attitudes and condemnation etc. I appreciate your spirit.

  147. DonaldN Sep 17th 2013

    Claudia…
    get over it. No one can ever so much as mention the word “woman” or Eve without you posting your 10+ paragragh feminist disertation on how Adam failed it is really all his fault.
    We all know it is Adam that is held responsible by God. There is no arguement about it.

  148. DonaldN Sep 17th 2013

    God ascribes all sin to Adam. We are all sinners because we were born of the flesh, in Adam.
    This does not take away from the fact that Eve was deceived. Adam was not deceived. Adam’s sin was listening to the voice of the woman instead of obeying God’s voice.
    Unfortunately this original sin is still running rampant today.

  149. Inspired Sep 17th 2013

    Watchful,
    I do not think I missed the point of what you were explaining about the widow woman.
    Indeed she gave her all, and the same with God–
    yet it was also said that love is giving your full advantage. God said to Abraham that He would bless the nations through him. The promise of the Father is yes and amen, so if I am getting a no, then I have to ask myself is it the serpent who is denying me the promises of God, and so I can not make the serpent the ceiling for my blessings, and have to depend on the Father to open the windows of heaven to pour out a blessing that I can not contain. Ask, and it will be given. Give and it will be given to you pressed down, shaken together and running over. I mean no disrespect, but if you continue to feed people, they stay impoverished, yet if you teach them how to have skills then they can provide for and thus be a blessing to others, though this does not excuse us from lending a hand or being a blessing to others. Hope this makes better sense.

  150. This word from A.W. Tozer speaks to my heart, and perhaps offers some understanding of how I feel and need. It is not a sad thing … It just is.

  151. … noisy religious shoptalk.

  152. I know the feeling. Even though I have a good husband, thank the Lord, he is like me, and we both suffer it together, the abandonment, and isolation. desire to be with other christians and sometimes almost go find a church on Sunday. Then, I recoil and stay home. I cannot connect with church christians anymore and they don’t seem to want to connect with me. Oh, but I pray and ask the Lord, what’s wrong with me? I’m feeling that maybe he would prefer me to be alone for a season, to learn things that don’t get taught in today’s materialistic churches.

    There’s a spirit out there. It would have us all get weary of well-doing. It would try to keep us plugged into cyber socializing. I think this spirit does not want to see christians gathered together, as worshipping together strengthens the brethren. And if we are recluses and don’t get strengthened by the other parts of the Body of Christ, how do we survive? I would say that christians throughout the ages have all no doubt felt this loneliness, but in these last days, there are added ingredients to the prophet’s loneliness that the old prophet’s didn’t have to endure.

    There are no kind people around anymore, people swear at each other and cut people off driving and cut into lines, and no one apologizes, and are angry and we are in seriously ungrateful times. It’s hard to love people.

    One things I’ve learned, it’s that a well-to-do christian will always hang with other well-to-do christians. Poor christians will NOT be allowed to enter into the cliques. Why? Because poor christians can’t afford to dine out, spend on entertainment, travel, hobbies, outdoors activities that require equipment………..we are living in times where christians have adopted the caste system. Kindred financial spirits fellowshipping with each other. It’s uncomfortable for a richer couple to fellowship with a couple who have much less. There’s no connection because it’s not Christ that unites, it’s the activities that unite. I’ve seen it. Christian couples going on trips together, christian couples going on cruises together, meeting in expensive restaurants, boating, skiing, etc. Low-income christians need not apply. It’s that simple.

    Until the church, the brethren return to Acts and have all things in common, we will never be able to appreciate each other. There is no way that materialism doesn’t influence a christian. It does. The flesh wants to be with like-minded people, or people who enjoy the same things. It’s tragic that the western churches have allowed the world to creep in and become a 3-tier class system. Poor, middle-income and wealthy.

    This too is part of why christians are lonely. Fellowship means something different today. And I don’t know yet what it really should be like.

  153. watchful Sep 17th 2013

    Inspired, even though His promises are yes and amen, are there not battles to be fought and enemies to overcome before the blessing/inheritance manifests? Asking, seeking, knocking is part of the battle, we can’t be victorious in our own strength. But the Israelites had to fight those grasshoppers, in order to enter and occupy the Promised Land, and it was written for our ensample.

  154. Inspired Sep 17th 2013

    Watchful
    The battlefield is the mind. This is where scripture says we are alienated from God. Am learning not to rely on my experiences to get me through battles, but rely on His presence to order my steps. learning to stop arguing with the trials and they disappear. I am not my source, He is and so I depend on Him. If there is war, then there is lack of peace, and he said My peace I give to you, not like the world, let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. He is my protection and my provision.

  155. re Marie’s response “This too is part of why Christians are lonely. Fellowship means something different today. And I don’t know yet what it really should be like”.

    It is well documented by Christians leaders, teachers and scholars of Bible prophecy, that the ‘visible’ church is on its way to apostasy. But the tares and wheat grow up together in it still. However many good church people recognise that the way ‘church is being done’ is not right, but don’t know how to fix it.
    Increasingly there are more believers outside the western style visible church now than actually in it. The young are drawn to market driven, ear splitting entertainment churches that won’t prepare them for any future world judgment or crises, the mature olds leave in droves because there is no ‘meat of the word’ preached, with ageism becoming more obvious in churches than even in society now. Doctrines of demons float in and out of pulpit teaching, and the world dictates the faith of believers more than the Word. So this all creates loneliness and aloneness for genuine believers as well.

    These folk ‘outside the camp’ are often isolated from each other and the only answer is to ask God to unite them together in their geographical locations, breaking bread from house to house as in the Book of Acts, adhering to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit with every joint supplying and utilising the spiritual gifts for the edification of all, with the only poncho in charge of all being the Holy Spirit. No manmade temples, no administration structures, no money collection, but only the operation of 2 Corinthians 12-15 re needs, no offices or man called and manmade leadership, just ministry giftings, which if we are all operating under the Holy Spirit we will recognise clearly each other’s gifts by way of the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

    Today if you grace a visible church door (not the market driven youth ones) you will see the people expressing their love to God in worship of varying styles and that looks genuine. Where they fall down is translating that love to each other. Church groups do not love each other -they love God, they love the structure they are serving, they love their activities in the church group, they love the social mix match, they love the Word (many do), but they don’t really love each other -WHY -because most Christians do not want the narrow way -they don’t want the CROSS. Such as laying one’s life down for the brethren. Especially if they are different. The only way to change this western church Roman mind set and lack of love is persecution -whichever way it comes. The true Chinese Church had to go underground for many years but it survived. Maybe it is time for events to cause the western church to go underground with a true sorting of sheep and goats. I think it has already started………………”My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me”.

    Till now the walk has been solitary for many, but let us ask God to bring HIS true Bride together, a Bride that would totally allow the Holy Spirit to be in charge of everything. And who would be willing to partake of his CUP and CROSS.

  156. Lightning Storm Sep 17th 2013

    What an outstanding description of the “BRIDE”!
    QUOTE
    “a Bride that would totally allow the Holy Spirit to be IN CHARGE of EVERYTHING.” UNQUOTE

    Thank you Alison.

    The BEAUTIFUL BRIDE
    morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable…..(Eph 5:27)
    ….neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond or free. (Gal 3:28)

  157. David m Sep 17th 2013

    Just about every morning or so, I click through to the end of the comments on the most current thread on this site and read backwards…from the last to the first…started on comments 154 and going back this time…oh my goodness! This is some good stuff! Thank you, Father!

  158. Carl Emerson Sep 17th 2013

    Hi there,

    While I relate to what Tozer is saying, there is a “First Love” in my spirit that never leaves me despite the isolation from God fearing believers.

    I can still remember the day, and where I was, about 30 years ago when He met me in an intimate way and for the first time I knew that I was alone and not alone at the same time.

    I encourage you to ask for this special assurance of His abiding presence if you suffer from loneliness.

    Be honest with Him – if you feel lonely – tell Him. He will not withhold any good thing from those who ask.

    I have called this abiding awareness of Him a “First Love” because it is all I have that never changes, and includes a sense of personal acceptance and adoration of Him in one.

    Sadly it seems that many believers today lack a deep devotional dimension, strong in silence, ever secure in Him.

    So isolation can be intense but never to the extent of eclipsing the knowledge of His love – because Jesus experienced this separation for us on the cross.

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  159. Andrew Sep 17th 2013

    I’m pretty sure that’s what most on here are talking about, my friend.

    It is certainly not the World’s concept of “loneliness”

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  160. watchful Sep 17th 2013

    Inspired, you are right on one level and we are learning, by His grace. And yet how do we explain going from glory to glory. Just the past few days some of my comments were my declaration of freedom and issuing the devil his “walking papers” because I was just set free of a huge misconception that has dogged me my entire life from childhood, and I am changed, once again, in the midst of this conversation, going from glory to glory! That is a very significant grasshopper overcome by the grace and power of God! Now anyone can revile me for believing this lie all my life, or they can rejoice with me in the goodness and power of the Lord God Almighty! Not only me but a younger brother in my family has just come back to the Lord two days after some specific fervent prayer went up to heaven on his behalf, he had been backslidden, and we are seeing to getting him baptized as soon as may be. He is like a different person! He is a “special needs” kind of person and I am so happy for him. Will I revile him for not yet being healed of his special needs or will I just rejoice in his spiritual healing! Glory, glory! Thank you Father!

    Carl Emmerson, you are right, that the loneliness does not eclipse His love. On the contrary for those of us who have experienced this, it is a bittersweet and precious kind of thing whereby in the midst of it we draw near to Him and He draws near to us. We receive of His comfort and wouldn’t trade it for anything! It is as Andrew said, not the world’s concept of loneliness. It was laid on Jesus at the cross, and it comes to us through the cross like all our suffering, we are allowed to feel it in some measure because of filling up what is behind of the sufferings of Christ.

    2Ti 2:12

    Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

    If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

    Now here might be a little secret, that not all our suffering and enduring is on our own ‘behalf’ but is intercessory in nature on behalf of others. We are numbered with the transgressors because it is assumed and may appear that we are suffering because of sin in our life, we are bearing His reproach. All that to say we should be careful of judging others, because this wonderful incredible God of ours, who can fathom?…He is all the time working out His manifold wisdom! Things are not always so cut and dried as we would like to think. Even a man born blind, it was for His glory.

  161. Inspired Sep 17th 2013

    Watchful,
    Rejoicing with you and your overcoming. No one reviles you for believing a lie, for we have all done this, because the enemy is crafty.
    Scripture says nothing is impossible with Him to them that believe.
    The man born blind was given sight to understand, so truly it was for His glory.

  162. watchful Sep 17th 2013

    Amen Inspired, bless you. I am just alluding to self-righteous attitudes.

  163. Claudia Sep 17th 2013

    DonaldN….there is nothing to get over. You are the one that is still constantly blaming Eve. You keep mentioning her….you are obviously hung up on the event. Both Eve and Adam sinned equally. Eve owned up to it. Adam blamed her. Adam did not choose to listen to Eve’s voice. (Next you will be saying that Eve bewitched him!!!) Adam chose disobedience to what God had told him. PERIOD! Eve’s voice had nothing to do with it. Men….such as you seem to be…are still trying to sneak away from the blame of not keeping Eve safe from her own will. Instead of enforcing God’s Will, Adam (you) also chose what Eve did…..and you are still blaming her for all the wrongs in the world. If Adam did not want also the forbidden fruit….he would have stopped Eve.

    That is all there is to it. Dust shaken off…..Subject is over. This is not the place to discuss it, and when one holds a prejudice they are not open to truth. Ask God when you next see Him. My words come from female lips which offend you….so I won’t waste them on this subject with you anymore.

    You are very judgemental. I am not a feminist….women should have stayed in the home and raised godly children.

  164. Lightning Storm Sep 17th 2013

    Yep…Adam was given the Word of God first and Adam could have said a resounding NO! and refused the fruit.

    BOTH men and women are going to be HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL SIN CHOICES.

  165. Andrew Sep 17th 2013

    Eve was first deceived.

    Adam then chose to listen to his wife over the word of the Lord.

    Scripture is very clear on this.

    But please do not start discussing Off Topic things.

    Thanks and blessings

    Andrew Strom

  166. Lightning Storm Sep 17th 2013

    Perhaps this subject of “feminism” in the church should have its own article. Lord willing.

  167. Andrew Sep 17th 2013

    Minefield of the century!

    But only because of modern “political correctness”.

    Blessings

    Andrew

  168. Claudia Sep 17th 2013

    On the subject of who first sinned. The answer is clear….satan. Sin is nothing more nor less than going against the Will of God.

  169. There are certain subjects that are “hot topics” in Christianity:

    1. Women in five fold ministry.
    2. Divorce and remarriage

    Just to name a few. There are others but these seem to be the ones that divide whole churches.

    GaryB

  170. Andrew Sep 17th 2013

    Order, authority, masculine headship – the devil has thoroughly undermined all of it – to the destruction of society and the family.

    A lot of the deception we see in the church has a “feminine” feel to it – soulish and emotional and somewhat “whimpy”. This is partly why males feel so uncomfortable in churches.

    Men by nature want “order” more. That is the way we are made.

    We could go on and on. But that is a topic for another day.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  171. Averyl Sep 17th 2013

    Maybe God’s order was ruined when Satan undermined it in the Garden .and now there is neither male nor female.

    But males still want a patriarchal hierarchy so they can lord it over females.

    God is both male & female, with a balance of both order & emotional. So should we be.

  172. Andrew Sep 17th 2013

    God has created two “writings” for us on this issue. One is the Bible – which is very clear about ‘Headship’ of the male in human society and family.

    The other is “biology” which God also ‘wrote’ using DNA.

    On average men are almost twice as heavy and strong as women. God did that. On average men have voices almost twice as loud and deep and “authoritative” as women. God did that.

    He is announcing something when He does so. It is very clear – except to today’s “feminized” women who cannot see the most obvious Truth – even when it is placed right in front of them.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  173. DonaldN Sep 17th 2013

    Perhaps someday Andrew will open the door to this minefield and start a discussion topic. Until then I wil honor his order to leave the off topic subject alone.

  174. 100% Zululander Sep 18th 2013

    hahaha this is good. it even got Andrew to write more than 3 lines. Start this subject Andrew & you’ll have 1000 posts in a day.
    Take the simple truths of God & complicate them & it sounds like a bunch of lawyers & there’s just no end to it, just confusion.
    I agree with the guys, but the present problem is that the guys don’t want to be guys any more. Guys, LOVE (ie all that love entails…..big subject) your wives, it’s the ONLY place to start……& end. Make them feel loved & all this feminism will cease.

  175. watchful Sep 18th 2013

    🙂 Zululander. Amen, husbands are to love their wives sacrificially. Much like how wives deny themselves all the day long for the children’s sakes. I know that if my husband could ever deny himself for my sake, sparks would fly in a good way, zowie! But the reality is that some husbands need to be loved back to life first. So I would say that whoever has, is the one who needs to deny themself and give.

  176. Marilyn Crow Sep 18th 2013

    Andrew you said,

    `A lot of the deception we see in the church has a “feminine” feel to it – soulish and emotional and somewhat “whimpy”. This is partly why males feel so uncomfortable in churches.`

    Have you ever considered that the Apostle Paul never spoke of the Body of Christ as a `female` Yet it is spoken of as truth. No wonder males would feel uncomfortable – `Come to Jesus & be His bride.`

    A good topic to work through some time. Marilyn.

  177. I don’t know if its different in Australia or New Zealand then in America. But we have a problem with masculine women and effeminate males on the rise in this country.

    Definition:
    fem·i·nism
    noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\

    : the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

    : organized activity in support of women’s rights and interests
    Quote…..

    Its now gone beyond equal rights, with women wanting to be men and men wanting to be women.

    If you look at scripture it teaches were to be slaves/servants to one another not to want to gain some type of status called “equal rights”.

    If we’re called to be slaves, then there should be no desire of striving to be equal to someone else. Everyone has a specific calling and function in the Body of Christ. While were all equal in being in the body, we do have a certain calling.

    Men are a little lower then the angels.
    That is just the way it is we cannot change that nor should we want to be equal to angels. Men were placed by God in a position of authority while on this earth.

    While there is order in God’s Kingdom it is according to what He Wills not what we will.

    I hope that makes sense.

    GaryB

  178. Inspired Sep 18th 2013

    Marilyn,
    Good point. Paul speaks of the body of Christ, and yet is the only one who does so, If I am not mistaken. Yet the other apostles speak of the bride. When the bride is one with her husband, and takes his name then she can transact business in his name as if He were the one doing the business,. Yeshua said He needed to be about His Fathers business, and yet most men seem to want to deny that women are in the body and males are the bride as well. Matter of fact I think there is scripture that says, therefore what God has JOINED together let no one put asunder/divide/separate. The two shall become ONE flesh. Christ spiritual body is flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. Even the pharisees asked Him by what AUTHority He did the things He did, and He said, I will ask you a question, by what authority was Johns baptism? and they could not tell, and He/Yeshua says, NEITHER will I tell you by what AUTHority I do these things. He is trying to make single what man is making dualistic. Everyone has to put on the armor of God. is there a female armor and a male armor? Is there female righteousness and male righteousness or do we all have imputed to us His righteousness as a garment? If we are in Christ then there is no more condemnation. Christ is the name above every name or it is not. Scripture says there is ONE Lord/provision, ONE Faith/Life, ONE Baptism/Christs, ONE God/Judge, ONE Father/Provider who is Above all, through all and in you all, yet grace/favor is given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

  179. DonaldN Sep 18th 2013

    People …. can you not honor Andrew Strom and hold your comments to the subject at hand. He asked for this off topic to not be dealt with at this tiime
    Why do you think you must continue to be rebellious and discuss it anyway, against his wishes.

  180. DonaldN Sep 18th 2013

    Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him.

    OK maybe a little extreme, but still, this is his forum, any one who posts should give the man the respect he deserves.

  181. DonaldN Sep 18th 2013

    So.. for those of you that have totally forgot what we are talking about here..

    It is he “alone-ness” of the Christian.

    Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    This scripture came to mind yesterday. This is where it becomes a reality, when attempting to assemble with others, but there are no others who believe as you do and you just sit quietly and let them discuss whatever because they don’t understand you. They think you are “too spiritual” or many other titles they come up with.

  182. Inspired Sep 18th 2013

    Donald,
    I honor the breath of life in all mankind. I have fought for my own country’s freedoms which include to be able to speak. To be denied that right, denies the freedom that is in Christ.
    You are correct, this is Andrews site, and he can run it the way he wants to, just as the owner who gave a days wages equally to the workers, and met with complaints of those who bore the heat of the day.
    As for the beware of him, I realize you admit that it is a bit extreme, yet I would rather fall into the loving hands of our heavenly Father than into mans.
    Perhaps it should be a mans only forum, since the measure of faith through the gender of women is not welcome or appreciated.

  183. DonaldN Sep 18th 2013

    Inspired,,, you just can’t leave it alone can you.

  184. DonaldN Sep 18th 2013

    PS… I was just throwing in a hint of humor. I am fully aware of that scripture referring to God only.

  185. 100% Zululander Sep 18th 2013

    Right, back to the loneliness. I’m lonely. My wife has gone on a 5 day holiday with our 2 daughters & one of our teen granddaughters. This almost never happens.
    The place is a mess, i’m in a mess, no food aaaaargh wheres my wife? I cannot believe how she loves being a housewife & is happy every time I come home after work. I’ll go mad & we’d be in a total shambles.
    We ARE different. Made different. THANK THE LORD for it. Guys want to be girls? You’re kidding me.
    Ladies take a bow. We love you. NOBODY can do what you do with such ease & grace.
    I’ll put up with being lonely till she comes home tomorrow & she’ll get lots of lovies & flowers.
    45 years with this lovely lady of my long time most delightful acquaintance is still not enough. Tomorrow I won’t be lonely!
    Pass for a lonely post Donald?? ;);)
    Bless you all

  186. 100% Zululander Sep 18th 2013

    Hey Donald, I just got revelation.
    God said that it was not good that man (male) dwell ALONE. See, it’s right there. Woman are the answer to mans (men) loneliness. So my feelings of loneliness are entirely biblical.
    mmmm uhh i wonder if Tozer was married mmmm??

  187. Andrew Sep 18th 2013

    This thread is deteriorating.

  188. ValleyAnt Sep 18th 2013

    Jane, you said, “Thank you as well for adding your comments as those who ‘think they know’ sit in seats above those who have come to know Christ in His sufferings… How on earth do we ‘weep with those who weep’ if we are always above suffering.” Amen. I was going to say more but read Andrew’s post to abandon this area of discussion. Thanks, Andrew.

    Inspired, mentioning that Jesus wishes us abundance of Life and that Paul wished his congregation Grace and peace (wholeness), you then said, “If I have loneliness, then something is lacking and not whole.” You’re right; the Scriptures you referred to are indeed true. When there’s loneliness, the thing that’s lacking is the fellowship of brethren. In Jn. 10:10, Jesus says He came to give us (PLURAL) abundance of Life; in Ps. 133, the Bible explains further that this abundance of Life is found in the fellowship of like-minded brethren (PLURAL) where there is no loneliness. Paul further confirms this by wishing wholeness to a PLURALITY of people. “When brethren dwell TOGETHER in unity… THERE the Lord commands the blessing– abundant Life” (Ps. 133). God knows we need others and made it NATURAL for us to be lonely when not around LIKEMINDED people even though we may be surrounded by people:

    In the Garden when everything was GOOD, only one thing lacked, therefore, everything wasn’t yet PERFECT, (complete, finished). Adam was surrounded by animals and so wasn’t alone… but he was LONELY, because there was no one who was LIKE him (likeminded). God proves His wisdom (which annihilates the ignorance of those who think they are wise to contradict Him) in that before Adam even asked for one who was likeminded, GOD put him to sleep and formed her from HIS SIDE because she would be THE SAME AS HIM (likeminded). When God made Eve, a likeminded HELPER for Adam, THEN everything was not just good but PERFECT (complete).

    Everyone who quarrels that loneliness is a sin or shortcoming displays hypocrisy or/and ignorance and makes fools (who all agree that loneliness is not abnormal but normal) proud and wise in comparison. God has put an end to the discussion from the Beginning, but those who don’t wish to live for God will argue about anything that draws them to partake of more than ‘the Joy of the Lord’. “If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP with one another.” But wise men suddenly testify against God, satan, and all of Creation.

  189. Inspired Sep 18th 2013

    Wow Valley Ant— thank you for your post, because I was sitting here deciding whether I wanted to present something similar to what you found or not– here is what I found as I read, but was trying to decide if I wanted to continue the dialogue.
    Zululander
    Thank you for making me go back and read and research some things from Genesis. I am now wondering if loneliness was the first sin. Seems Adam
    had intimacy with God enough to be able to name animals etc. Yet when he seen them in pairs he realized there was not another like him. In other words, he was lonely and God was not enough. He wanted a help meet. So God gave him one.
    As I was pondering all this stuff, realization came that in the N.T. we are given the proper Helper/helpmeet, called the Holy Spirit. So God sent His Son to fix this mess and reconcile the world to Himself, so the right helpmeet would come, or really to turn our focus back on Him to be our ultimate desire.

  190. ValleyAnt Sep 18th 2013

    Andrew, it’s going off topic. Only you can really bring it back to order as this is your house (forum, ministry). Unity and peace are to be promoted and not allowing noisy gongs and dead religion to displace the truth that is clearly presented to every one of us.

  191. ValleyAnt Sep 18th 2013

    Inspired, thanks. The Bible and God aren’t the only ones who bear witness to the truth, but satan and nature and all of Creation do too. Only the ignorant or/and proud or the devious contradict the clear truth about which even demons say, “Amen”. Therefore, amen. I’m about to have Bible study now so will be back later.

  192. Andrew Sep 18th 2013

    “ALONE-NESS” with God is not the same as the “Loneliness” of the world. And it is very far from being a “sin”.

    How often do we need to say it?

    -Andrew Strom

  193. ValleyAnt Sep 18th 2013

    Okay, no Bible study yet…

    Barry, you’re right: Jesus suffered, and no servant is above his master, so we’ll suffer like Jesus including His loneliness. I’ve also experienced the disappointment when the religious, who think they love God, recognized that I wasn’t into pretending and began to avoid me.

    Watchful, you said that God doesn’t rebuke our loneliness and gave the passage He gave me in late ’10: “God sets the solitary in families” (Ps. 68:6). Thanks in saying that Jesus wept at Lazarus’ tomb; He also wept over Jerusalem. We know that those tears were tears of sorrow and that God doesn’t rebuke or condemn one if loneliness is ever the cause of their sorrow. I can’t expect all Christians to want to stay on earth till the very end just because I want to. In the OT, Israel had rules about battle some of which said that the fearful or newly wedded were not required to go to battle (and those going couldn’t expect them to go). As you said, we can’t expect others to be like us.

    Donald, I disagree that there’s a lack of love on both sides, one saying that loneliness is singing or one’s fault and the other saying that loneliness is a normal human emotion which God does not chide or rebuke but accepts. I’ll explain why I believe that the truth that loneliness is normal and that God does want us among brethren should be defended at the end of this post.

    Marilyn Crow, we really are travelers. Some are willing to stay until the end of this thing. The song is for those who are weary and who want to go Home and finally find rest: “For now I would have lain still and been quiet, I would have been asleep; then I would have been at rest” (Job 3:13). Amen.

    Gordon, I agree about what Christianity has become.

    Inspired, the passage says to get wisdom first (as it covers everything else) but that one should not stop there but also get its twin understanding. A defining of these words is in order as so many things are out of order.

    Claudia, what is your definition of wisdom as distinguished from knowledge and understanding.

  194. watchful Sep 18th 2013

    The class is getting a bit rowdy Andrew. 😉 I feel like joking myself for some reason, and telling Zulu it might be wise to clean up that mess before his wife gets home!

    It seems to me that the addition of Eve had more to do with making man in God’s own image, completing the image. Adam didn’t say anything or complain about being lonely, it was the Lord who simply said “it is not good that man should be alone”. Why..?….Because God wasn’t alone. May be something to consider.

    Gen 1:26

    And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    l really have trouble understanding how feeling lonely could be a sin, no more than feeling your head throbbing from a headache or feeling the pain of a bullet wound would be a sin. Grumbling about it would be, but not feeling the pain of it. We are not like the angels yet. If the shoe fit I would wear it, but it just doesn’t make any sense. (Incidentally the fact that we are not like the angels yet is the reason why some form of order and authority is needed, it’s just a practical necessity and safeguard until that day. I think there is plenty of room to understand better what that should look like etc, but I don’t think there is room to just set aside what has been written about it. Please, no spitballs.) 🙂

  195. DonaldN Sep 19th 2013

    Just got home from work today. Read all the posts since this morning.

    I think I will go mow the lawn.

    Andrew, I look forward to your next topic.

    Be Blessed

  196. We long for fellowship – real, deep, fellowship – but we can’t orchestrate it if the Lord isn’t giving it to us…

    Anything which we have to go out and “grab” is not of the Lord…

  197. ValleyAnt Sep 19th 2013

    Inspired, Adam wasn’t in sin for being lonely. No sin entered the Creation until Eve ate from the tree. God didn’t give Eve to Adam because he rejected God’s companionship, and the Holy Spirit isn’t supposed to take the place of a spouse.

    DonaldN, the reason it’s necessary to defend the normalcy and legitimacy of loneliness is because the enemy wants to isolate Christians and then tell us it’s okay or God’s will and keep us in the wilderness longer than God intended. Marie writes that “there’s a spirit out there [that] would try to keep us plugged into cyber socializing… this spirit does not want to see us gathered together as worshipping together strengthens the brethren.” This came by revelation, and it is true. In my own life, satan has not stopped whispering, and telling me through countless Christians, that it’s God’s own will that I remain in the wilderness. In short, the enemy has tried to convince me that it’s okay or God’s will for me to not be plugged in face to face with Christians in community (i.e. spirit to spirit fellowship: Ps. 133). It’s my belief that as ‘this spirit’ has a been telling me this lie, it has also been telling others this same lie which is the revelation that Marie wrote.

    Alison, I agree with you that Christians who’ve left the system to seek the real are ISOLATED from each other and that the main thing to pray is for God to unite them. God doesn’t waver: when I ask Him why I’ve been having such a hard time, He says that it’s because I’m not in fellowship with likeminded brethren. The truth is always obvious when HE tells it to you. The common denominator in the suffering of many isolated Christians is that they’re not among likeminded brethren. This truth is one, as Marie said earlier by revelation, is one that satan is continually contesting and contradicting… even with flimsy arguments such as that feeling lonely is a sin, a sign of ungodliness or of error, and something that God rebukes and condemns. (I’d ask all here to employ their spiritual discernment in order to flush out the lie and intimidation of the enemy that’s meant to make you all believe that it’s God’s will in some way that you be alone and that feeling lonely is something God disapproves. These lies are directly from the enemy, meant to keep isolated Christians from meeting and being together.) You go on to write, “Till now the walk has been solitary for many, but let us ask God to bring HIS true Bride together.” While asking, let us BELIEVE that it is God’s will: He loves it when Christians gather TOGETHER to worship in spirit and truth: “How GOOD and how PLEASANT it is when brethren dwell together in unity” (Ps. 133). Let’s be discerning about those who sow false doctrines and who promote isolation (aware also of when our own fears and such agree with the enemy’s anti-Christ and anti-Church agenda) rather than unity. Amen.

  198. 100% Zululander Sep 19th 2013

    I agree donald. Noisy shoptalk someone said earlier & as Tozer also called it. I posted what I did as I felt the same & bored with changing topics & picking holes in it.

    This is what Tozer said:
    The man (or woman) who has passed on into the divine Presence in actual inner experience will not find many who understand him.

    He’s right, it seems as if few here understand him

    1Co 2:10 But it was to us that God made known his secret by means of his Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, even the hidden depths of God’s purposes.
    1Co 2:11 It is only our own spirit within us that knows all about us; in the same way, only God’s Spirit knows all about God.

    His experience was subjective (inner experience) as it was spiritual. Now this is not easy to explain, it needs to be experienced to know what Tozer was experiencing.
    Thats why I think he said “noisy shoptalk” to all else
    Thats why I posted even earlier about the critisizing & nit picking of what Tozer said instead of folk looking into find what he has experienced in God & how he came into that experience in God. Not looking for loneliness but to be so occupied by Him.

  199. ValleyAnt Sep 19th 2013

    Watchful, it’s definitely true that some suffering is intercessory in nature, someone suffering solely for the sake of others. You’re right that Adam never complained about being alone… but he sure felt it… ’cause I feel it too, and it’s not something you choose to feel but something a loving God ‘feels into you’ because He has the answer and wants to bless and FULFILL you (pun intended: to full fill or fill full the hole in Adam’s side). It’s a telling mystery and answer that God created a woman to walk at Adam’s side, created her from his side. Yet, He proved that it wasn’t about lack but COMPLETION (of God’s Image, as you said) by causing Adam to lack (removing a rib) and creating Eve from it, not from the earth. What a mystery. As you said, God was never alone. Watchful, there’s no reason to feel bad about being lonely. God gave us feelings to (just as our bodies feel) regulate, not control, us. When I’ve been too confused to hear (with my spirit) God’s direction, He used my feelings (soul) to speak His direction to me. God has pre-planned and preempted all confusion and enemy strategies against Him and us. It’s the enemy who has many in confusion about loneliness (often, some are too used to being alone to believe) when God clearly says in the Bible that He wants brethren to dwell TOGETHER. The enemy still tells me that it’s God’s will for me to be alone. There was a time when I so believed this that God had to give me Ps. 133, a favorite passage of mine, to argue that IT IS HIS WILL that Christians should be together. DonaldN quotes well where the Bible tells us not to forsake face to face fellowship. ‘Forsake’ here doesn’t just mean ‘neglect’ but also or mostly ‘take lightly or dismiss’: “Do not dismiss the IMPORTANCE of gathering TOGETHER as some do.” So, we see that God sees it as “[fitting] and [wonderful] when brethren dwell TOGETHER in unity.” Amen.

    Lightning Storm, “there are six things God hates, seven that are an abomination to Him.” The seventh abomination is a person “who sows discord among brethren” (Pro. 6). Do you have anything edifying to say.

    On the issue of ‘male vs. female’, I agree 100% with Andrew. Those who don’t want to submit to the good order God made should have their fun now. There are certain men (and women) who WILL NOT tolerate any form of rebellion, especially concerning leadership. Paul seemed overly strict on the topic only because it is a VERY serious topic to God. Very, very serious. I feel for those who seek to rebel against God’s order. It’s not for nothing that He tells children to HONOR (not necessarily obey) their parents and EVERY SOUL to be SUBJECT to the ruling authorities whether good or bad. People who continue to resist God’s order will find that they have only troubled, aggravated, and hurt themselves alone. Andrew, you may want to stop this particular issue (male and female). I see the enemy getting behind some to fan it into a forest fire. Be watchful and discerning.

    DonaldN, thanks for choosing to stick to the topic as Andrew asked. The rebellious spirit sneaks in but spreads quickly. I agree: everyone, we need to abandon the topic of male and female till it’s an article here. Learn to not chase what seems good but to be careful that the enemy sudden doesn’t get the better of you through even unwitting rebellion. Inspired, we aren’t asking for your good intentions. This is Andrew’s forum; honor his wishes and abandon manipulative measures.

    Lol Zululander. It sucks without your wife around doesn’t it? I already know! God definitely made men to need women in a good way. Thank You, Lord, for Your Love and Kindness! Amen! Just the thought of my own soulmate makes my heart glad; but this isn’t my own gladness as I’m a man who has no needs (lol). It really is, as strange as it may seem, the joy of the Lord– joy that comes from God.

    AJH, I believe that the assembly cannot be by might or power, as you said, but must be by the Spirit. Easy earlier in this discussion, someone said that we should pray for it, and I believe that praying for it (and believing that it’s God’s will to do it) roll bring it to pass “by My Spirit”.

    Whew. Goodnight all. And may God comfort the hearts of the weary and the alone. Thank You for what You teach us in the wilderness, but there is a season for all things. Lord, You know. You said our strength and encouragement are in the joy found in You, therefore, we have little strength and encouragement when we have little joy. But You said, “This is My commandment– that you love one another, that your joy may be full.” Amen. And we love one another best face to face where we find You gathered with us and therefore the joy and blessings You command in the place of unity. Sanctify us in the truth; Your Word is truth. Your Word is truth.

  200. Gordon Neil Sep 19th 2013

    God the Father asks a lot of questions! He knows the answer before we answer. Creation suffers and Jesus was sent to straighten it out. Jesus was the Creating Agent of God. God knew that Adam and Eve would be tempted and tested by Satan. A Third of the Angel headed by the fallen Lucifer was no surprise by the Deception, the Lies allowed to Eve. In our own understanding we blame this one and that ……….BUT the Big Picture is Awesome and the angels of God, the sons of the God marvel at the Manufacturer’s upgrade …….many becoming One as God in Christ; some gifts strong and others in support as family – One Family in Love, the Love of God Holy as One. Very Powerful Expansion of the God Head. One can get only a glimpse of God the Father’s Plan referring to the New Heavens and New Earth. Most Christians-as-usual will not make it, pass the test. Many come, talk the talk BUT few will know her husband – Jesus Christ. The small Christian talk is BUT a pass time to most! the False Hope in the Churches is so great for Satan’s tender traps, his hurts is where the sheep feed, where they go to drink. Yes, Satan appeals to the image of God in man for he himself knows the power, the position of authority. Those in the Grand Stands watch the suffering of the saints, that find little faith in others to assemble as Sealed kinsman. The equipped, the prepared are Few. Jesus says along these lines, “Will I find any faith when I return.” Many thinking they are going to ride out of here in the Rapture. Yes, many are called, But only a Few as a percentage. Yes, only a Few pass the Quality Control by God’s stamp of approval.

  201. AJH,
    Very well said.
    Lord Bless you abundantly in Him,
    GaryB

  202. watchful Sep 19th 2013

    Isa 51:2

    Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

    The sheep are scattered, an enemy has done this, but what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. We have been sown and scattered like wheat……….for a purpose. Once the kernels of wheat have died they will begin to produce a crop, and then we won’t be so alone any longer.

  203. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Valleyant; you asked me, what is your definition of wisdom as distinguished from knowledge and understanding.

    My answer would be that wisdom only comes together when we submit our knowledge and understanding into submission to following YHWH’s Will.

    Anytime we lean towards following our own will….we are tempting deception to cover our understandings of the knowledge that we have gleaned. Deception is ever ready to leap in and substitue his voice (bread) for the Voice of our Most Beloved Sheppard….the Right Hand of YHWH.

  204. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Inspired; I got the same understanding from Genesis when I read about “WHEN” Eve was created. It was after Adam found nothing provided for him in EDEN that satisfied his “emptiness”, separateness. I have always felt that Adam would have been grown into his godhead (He was a child of God) had he totally filled his being with the companionship of YHWH. Than, possibly when Adam was fully matured, YHWH would have provided EVE so they could spread YHWH’s Will upon this earth in an everlasting way. However….YHWH cares for His creations (having given them the operative of free will) and supplied Eve somewhat early (my belief). Than….both Eve and Adam (when Eve handed him the “fruit”) ate of that which was forbidden, and eternity at that time had to be taken away from earth, because satan’s “bread” came into the earth creation….polluting it. Even satan was created with free will.

    When this Restoration of the Scroll Period is completed….I don’t think we will have to consider male and female rules anymore….as there is no more giving into marriage authority in what we are to become when freed from this zone. However….that has not happened yet….so we are to submit into YHWH’s Will here upon earth….if we are to grow in the better way towards our perfection in Him.

  205. Inspired Sep 19th 2013

    Claudia,
    I agree with what you have written and have this understanding as well, as it is continuing to unfold. I have to appreciate the adversary/satan, for had I not had adversity in life then it would have not challenged me to seek truth and overcome this adversary. I know that I am defined by who He says I am and not by my feelings or experiences.
    Then again, it is His life in me working the works and I get to rest and observe Him.
    Do you post elsewhere, where there is more liberty to discuss?

  206. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    I still cannot get beyond the order of creation of the FIFTH and SIXTH DAYS…..as shown in Chapter One of Genesis…….and their Order of creation as described in EDEN in Chapter Two of Genesis.

    Chapter One shows the animals being created in the 5th DAY before the 6th DAY creation of the “human” of earth.

    Chapter Two shows the “human” creation in EDEN being created before the animals.

    Scripture should not reverse or contradict itself….God is the same…ALWAYS.

    I think there is a mystery to EDEN that is not understood….and when it is…..will shed much LIGHT on the matters of mankind. I think EDEN was eternal and was meant to spread over all the world, but the ADAM placed in Eden also eventually followed satan’s word instead of YHWH’s…..casting him back into the non-eternal existence of the 6th DAY creations. So…now we need the Mellinnium Kingdom to restore EDEN’s timelessness to all the earth, and before that could happen we needed our LAMB’s death on the cross to cancel satan’s deed of death on earth and bring in Yeshua’s Mellinnium dispensation….which leads back to eternity fo the earth.

  207. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    Whoohooo Claudia…..only the Spirit of God could have revealed this to you.

    The truth about Eden that you wrote is not a “new” thing…..it is a truth that was well known and accepted by the early church, but over time has been covered up and hidden because of apostasy.

    The LIGHT of God is increasing in these last days and UNCOVERING what has been hidden by darkness and exposing the lies that have been taught as His Truth.

  208. Inspired Sep 19th 2013

    Claudia, thank you for sharing this. Lightening storm I would like to hear more, however if we are not allowed to, I know He will reveal and cause me to understand it when I am supposed to.
    Best I understand is those animals are within man– like the sea is active life and the goat-rebellion and the serpent/carnal mind and the horses/emotions etc.
    Adam named the animals and so I just ask Father to name them within me and pull the reins back when needed or even woe to those emotions that are not His.
    Maybe this is the difference between the two chapters??

  209. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Zulander…..what is the definition of a man….in your opinion?

    Why does scripture state that in the end times women can search but a real man will be hard to find?

    Could not have the Adam in Eden found his completeness in YHWH? Probably not….because he was separated out of YHWH (The ROCK) when He was put in EDEN. However, Yeshua was there, as well as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (satan/dragon). Adam had been told to not commune with satan. YHWH had given Adam a helpmate in order to handle the existence in this earthly zone….of limited powers lost….”two earthly hands are better than one”….if those two hands are obedient and work in harmony. YHWH wanted Adam to populate the world with eternal souls, thus Eve was created of the same eternal soul and identify of flesh. However….they lost that eternal soul when they BOTH disobeyed His Word and chose to follow….and believe what satan told them….”That they could short circuit YHWH’s PLAN of redemption and become gods instantly….right now!

    Adam did not stop Eve from reaching out for the forbidden “fruit” from satan (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) as he stood there with her.

    Our wills….must always submit to YHWH’s or we will continue to ever short circuit the Better Way to our Redemption as Sons of God….(fortunately HE has not yet stopped striving with mankinds self will!). From Adam’s line, through Noah, through Abraham, came the flesh that Yeshua used to be the LAMB….and make a Way for Restoration of all mankind.

    Woman to this day hungers for the man who will keep her safe and guide her in the Wisdom of YHWH….but as scripture says….few will be found. So, today’s woman (most), ….as does today’s man (most), ….turn to what the world offers to fill that hunger (seeking the bread of satan)…..most not even recognizing from where the hungers comes…..yet alone recognizing the only ONE who can fill that Hunger…and forever banish that awareness of our separation.

    Those who turn to YHWH as the only LOVE worth having…both man and woman…..cannot help but become aware of what they were, what they are, and what they will be…..and that awareness sets them apart from other humans, and from the herd unity that worldly humans find false safety and security in.

  210. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    GaryB….I like what you acknowledge about being slaves. That is why sometimes I refer to the collar that YHWH has placed around my neck. It represents to me, that no matter what I may think I want….I want what HE desires for me. I think we all have to come to the point where we bow down and stretch out our necks for HIS collar to be placed upon.

    This collar attached to a leash held in HIS hand, represents HIS instant authority, guidance, protection, and our glad submission to it. I find myself in a world full of dangers….and totally welcome this instant communication and limitation that HE puts upon me.

  211. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    [2Ki 17:33, 35, 41 NASB] 33 They feared the LORD and SERVED their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile. …

    35 with whom the LORD made a covenant and commanded them, saying, “You shall NOT FEAR other gods, nor BOW DOWN (which is not only physical bowing, but TO DO HOMAGE TO AND TO SUBMIT ONESELF) yourselves to them NOR SERVE them NOR SACRIFICE to them. …

    41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also SERVED their IDOLS; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

    When we have IDOLS in our hearts and souls, we have ROBBED GOD, holding back from Jesus ALL that He was crucified for, AND CHEATED OURSELVES OF THE ABUNDANT LIFE.

    2 Kings 17 explains how BOTH ALMIGHTY GOD and the little gods of the culture were OCCUPYING the hearts and souls, TIME, EFFORT, AND SERVICE of the people.

    The people were LIVING SPLIT LIVES!
    WORSHIPING the One True God and SERVING THE gods of the land that they were living in.

    Perhaps so many people strive and struggle, are FRUSTRATED, LACK FREEDOM, have a loss of the ABUNDANT LIFE because they are SERVING IDOLS.

    Most christians live a COMPARTMENTALIZED life.
    Worshiping at church; bible study; prayer meetings etc, all while RELYING ON friends, spouses, careers, skills, money in the bank, worldly wisdom etc.

    Many claim to worship ONLY GOD, but have come to accept a LIFESTYLE that DEPENDS upon most everything else.

    And whatever we DEPEND UPON, WE WILL MOST DEFINITELY SERVE.

    When we try to house both God and gods/idols, we are left with HALF HEARTED LIVING which is PAINFULLY UNGRATIFYING.

    We leave no place for the FULNESS OF HIS PRESENCE AND THE ABUNDANT LIFE HE BRINGS WITH HIM.

    PUT ALL YOUR FAITH IN ALMIGHTY GOD….what part of ALL is not understood?

    The synonyms for the word FAITH are:
    BELIEVE
    DEPEND UPON
    TRUST
    RELY UPON
    PUT CONFIDENCE IN

    The wilderness experience was meant for a short time to REMOVE THE THINGS OF EGYPT THAT WERE INSIDE OF THE HEARTS AND SOULS OF THE HEBREWS.

    THIS INCLUDED gods/idols, wrong desires, willfulness, pride, divided hearts, stubbornness to go their own ways, etc etc…….the wilderness is NOT an attack from the devil……IT IS THE PURIFYING FIRES OF GOD COME TO REMOVE THE DROSS.

    If this is a LIFELONG WILDERNESS, then there is something deeply WRONG.
    Being in the WILDERNESS for decades is NOT A BADGE OF HONOR.

  212. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    Absolutely beautiful Claudia!! AMEN.

    I believe I am on a KEYCHAIN…the leash has been shortened!

  213. Inspired Sep 19th 2013

    Wow Claudia and Lightening Storm! All I know is
    every seed reproduces after its own kind to include Gods, as we are created in His image and likeness.
    The power of God begets the power of God.
    Power begets power and all power has been handed over to the Son of which we are in.

  214. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    I was astonished to read that someone said:

    “The Holy Spirit should not take the place of my spouse”

    The Holy Spirit is God.

    God COMMANDS that He be FIRST and FOREMOST in our lives.

    ALL other relationships FLOW from the amount of INTIMACY we have with the Trinity.
    The more of us and our lives He has POSSESSION OF, the more His NATURE FILLS US AND OVERFLOWS.

    He FLOWS EFFORTLESSLY AS THE RIVER OF LIVING WATER to the atmosphere around us, IF WE ABIDE IN Him.

  215. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Andrew stated: “A lot of the deception we see in the church has a “feminine” feel to it – soulish and emotional and somewhat “whimpy”. This is partly why males feel so uncomfortable in churches.”

    That of course is your perception….as you seemed to have linked “feminine” with “soulish”, “emotional” and “whimpy”. Wow! That is all I can say….Wow! Do you see what you have said?

    There are many females who also do not appreciate the touchy feely falseness that permeates what stands for many churches now a days. Which in reality is the self centered herd mentality and conformity which is common to the man of flesh seeking security in what is known amongst themselves…self confirmation. Satan is the main promoter of “Self Confirmation”…right from what he offered Adam and Eve in EDEN. This idea of “SELF” has grown upon earth because man (who after the fall was given the authority by YHWH) from Adam onward cannot stand as a man…and say “NO” to all that is wayward to YHWH’s Will for mankind…and to all that points away from YHWH. Why cannot man stand up? Because there are other things he has chosen to put in front of his love for YHWH.

  216. Andrew Sep 19th 2013

    Claudia – this has been written about extensively all over the world.

    Men are staying away from churches in their droves. Many put this down to the “touchy feely” tone, the “mauve” walls, the flower displays and the overall ‘feminine’ feel to a lot of things.

    You can ignore it if you wish, but clearly many view it as a big problem. Losing men is not ideal.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  217. Thanks Gary, Same to you brother, Andrew

  218. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Absolutely agree with you Lightning Storm regarding that the wife should not replace the Holy Spirit. You nailed it!

    Yes, Inspired….we are within the Son, who all Power and Authority have been handed over to. And….until that day when I am totally conformed to Him……I am so glad HE has a restraining collar upon my neck!

    Submission is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of tremendous strength…..and the more we can submit to His Will the stronger we grow……and sometimes that strength has to be checked, because we may not yet have the Wisdom to act upon what we see.

    We wait upon HIM, our LAMB who submitted to the cross, and returns as KING OF KINGS, ALPHA AND OMEGA!

    The overflowing Waters! The Saints that overcome the world through Yeshua are the waters that come out of the throne that go and heal the world after the WRATH. Those waters even now flow from our bossoms, tho we cannot yet see all things.

    (Inspired; I have not sought places to post…a friend during the beginnings of 2010 sent me something related to a discussion we were having which connected me to this place of posting….and it seemed that it would help my learning efforts to subscribe. I should define “learning” for the judgemental. Learning does not occur if there is no discussion….because there is not one human who yet sees clearly enough that all others should just listen. Truth is not revealed when there is just one dimension….unless it is YHWH speaking. YHWH is not limited to man’s understanding of the written word and the limitations inherent within the written word. None of us will have perfect understanding until we are one mind with YHWH.)

  219. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    Almighty God is BOTH masculine and feminine.

    (as OPPOSED to being both male and female which is taught by false teachers…like feminists)

    Proverbs speaks about WISDOM, which is the Spirit of Wisdom….the HOLY SPIRIT, and calls the Holy Spirit, SHE.

    [Pro 3:18 NKJV] 18 SHE is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy [are all] who retain her.

    [Pro 4:9 NKJV] 9 SHE will place on your head an ornament of grace; A crown of glory she will deliver to you.”

    And HOW MANY TREES OF LIFE ARE THERE?

    And Who places the CROWN of GLORY upon the overcomers’ heads?

    Perhaps BOTH men AND women are running from the POWERFUL PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT rather than break down in brokenness and repentance?

    Rather than worshiping the LORD as David did…thus making himself a “laughing stock” to some people?

  220. Lightning Storm Sep 19th 2013

    Adam and Eve were BOTH created in the IMAGE of I AM.

    His masculine Image and His feminine Image.

    Almighty God is NOT male or female.

    Only the MAN JESUS was made male.

  221. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Andrew….I agree with you about what is in the churches that are driving men away today. 100%! My disagreement was with once again blaming the feminine for it. I just don’t call it the feminine influence. I call it the vanity of self confirmation, the desire to keep the group together no matter what…because it is within the group that they feel their safety exists. Not understanding that YHWH would rather the group be scattered than exist in false pretenses.

    Nor do I agree that to be feminine is to be whimpy, souless, and touch feely(superficial). A true female is stronger in enduring than a man (studies have proven that),….she has a soul just like a man…..and she hates the artificial taint of Babylon. A female is more into her mind, than a man, because she was created with weaker muscles (might). YHWH needed a MIND to raise the children, and he needed muscles to keep them safe.

    Andrew…..have you ever thought much on that it is man’s hormones, not his DNA that makes man stronger in the flesh than woman? Except for the X and Y chromozone, the DNA of man and woman are the same….you can go and check that out for yourself.

    Man is of flesh and he is on the fallen earth where he has no power but that of the flesh (Except for those who can link into YHWH’s power when they are within Yeshua). You can see the same Godly Plan in other creations that travel together in herds or groups, such as gorrillas, cattle, lions, chickens, turkeys, etc. It was not for leadership that they were given these hormones….but for PROTECTION AND DEFENDING of the group, or the individual. Man’s superior strength has nothing to do with LEADERSHIP AND AUTHORITY….nor was it given to him for that purpose. It was given to him for FIGHTING, not for subduing a weaker woman.

    YHWH, after the sin in EDEN, gave the AUTHORITY to man, over woman. It did not come from his DNA. Authority and leadership comes from the MIND, not from the muscles. Man was constructed to be the defender and protector of woman from the beginning of his creation. The Authority and leadership role did not come until after the fall from EDEN.

    I have absolutely no probem with a Godly Righteous man in YHWH being the head over me. I crave it. It is the order of how things should be. But any ole muscle bound man who lacks YHWH as his head, is not fit for a leadership role of any kind…..other than one that satan might design. I do not point out the lack in your words because I resent a man in authority over me…..but because your words are coming from a bank of understanding that is not supported by the laws found in all of YHWH’s earthly creations. YHWH’s order and form can be found in all that HE creates.

    I have said before…I am not of the perversion that supports the moden day understanding of “feminist”.

  222. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    The Two Fold Spirit of God is running through my head. What does it mean per scripture and per modern day understandings?

  223. Andrew Sep 19th 2013

    Saying that male humans were not designed to LEAD is exactly the same as saying male Lions are not made to lead (being bigger, stronger and LOUDER). Or that male Gorillas are not made to lead (being bigger, stronger and LOUDER).

    God has designs in this earth that are SELF EVIDENTLY designed to lead. Only people influenced by feminist lies cannot see it. So very obvious.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  224. Andrew Sep 19th 2013

    And now – back ON TOPIC please.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  225. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    Andrew….I also will stop talking about this, but it is the female lion who leads the pack of lions. You might want to research that also. She is the one who leads them in the hunts and things such as that. It is the male who defends the pride…when another male threatens or danger approaches. After the hunt is finished it is the male lion who is allowed to eat first…the female giveing way to him. Other than that…it is the female leader of the pride that decides when and where they pick up and go, and when to start the hunt. That is the nature of the lion pride as documented by studies.

    I did not say that YHWH did not want the man to lead. It is just that you are using the wrong things to justify your leadership. Things of this world….not things of the Spirit. Do not blame the female because the man appointed by YHWH did not take up his responsibility and leadership role…..for whatever reasons he did not do so.

  226. Claudia Sep 19th 2013

    ON TOPIC. Perhaps man did not adhere to his God given leadership role, because man was more afraid of losing the comforting arms of his woman, and being alone in flesh as apposed to being alone with YHWH?

    Perhaps these two topics are related together. Perhaps it is only the true man of God that can handle the aloneness that can come when one walks first and foremost with God.

  227. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    GaryB

  228. Andrew Sep 20th 2013

    Thankyou Gary. And the same is said in many different ways throughout Scripture.

    Male lions DO dominate – though they prefer the female to do the hunting because she is small and agile. But hominids are better examples from the wild than big cats.

    We are not taking “worldly” examples here. We are simply pointing out the “design” of humans – designed by GOD HIMSELF.

    If a man is not to have “authority” then why did God make his voice so much louder and more authoritative?

    We could go on and on – but the wilfully blind will not be swayed by any argument.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  229. I will answer you on this Claudia as I have been walking it…

    Adam did indeed sin because he was afraid of losing his wife…

    But just because Adam sinned in this way God didn’t take back from Adam his place in his wife’s life – God didn’t take away Adam’s position…

    Even in his imperfect state Adam’s position wasn’t “in jeopardy” until he “sorted himself out”…

    Authority is to be respected because all authority comes from God…

    Submission is not based on worthiness of that authority to be submitted to but based on respect for God who gave that authority in the first place…

    Loneliness is a real thing – I have been walking it – I have chosen the Lord and not the arms of a woman…

  230. watchful Sep 20th 2013

    Wilderness takes as long as it takes Lightning Storm. God can be trusted and knows His business with each one. One reason it takes faith is because we don’t know how long it will take, but we are exhorted to keep the word of His patience and endure to the end. Moses took 40 years, Paul took 14. For myself it has only been about 7 or 8 years since being restored to the true gospel, but I am content to follow the Lord wherever and however He leads for the rest of my life, and in this way reckon myself dead already. When we have ceased caring and worrying how long it takes, is this not an indication that we are on our way to dying to ourselves and being surrendered to His will? My testimony is that I am free of burdens and cares now, how I praise and thank His wonderful Name. We are being emptied.

  231. I am a man and I do not go to church either. But it has nothing to do with the taste of the decor. It is because the ministries of the preachers are not holy.

  232. Inspired Sep 20th 2013

    I must be one messed up chica, because after my burning bush incident where the fire fried my brain, He told me to follow Him, not man, which was why I went into the fire. Last time I read the scriptures, we are seated in Him in heavenly places, not in the wilderness.
    I refuse to leave Christ to validate myself, and follow or measure myself by a law, or man to look good, and miss the mark of being measured in Christ.
    Divine order of God is, out of the Father, through the Son, then man, animal, plants etc

  233. Lightning Storm Sep 20th 2013

    Can one look at the CURSED world and see the PERFECT DESIGN OF GOD that existed PRIOR TO THE FALL?

    When does a person come out from under the CURSE?

    Isn’t that what the BLOOD DELIVERS US FROM?

    BEFORE the curse, Adam and Eve were CO-EQUAL as is the Trinity.
    Their only authority and head was I AM.

    AFTER the curse, there was a NEW LAW, ANOTHER kind of relationship between I AM and humans AND between humans AND between humans and the other creatures.
    This was because SIN IS DESTRUCTIVE AND DESTROYED THE PERFECT.

    Who RESTORES GOD’S PERFECTION? Jesus Christ

    Does His Blood set us FREE FROM THE CURSE?

    When does His Blood BEGIN SETTING US FREE FROM THE CURSE?

  234. Andrew Sep 20th 2013

    The NEW TESTAMENT says-
    “I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

    And so many similar verses.

    This is not the “curse”. It is simply God’s divine order. Rebel against it and suffer the consequences.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom.

  235. Inspired Sep 20th 2013

    Quite the contrary, I was doing it and suffered the consequences.
    Not afraid of the fire anymore, it burns out lies so I run to it now.
    I am in Christ, and His Name is above every name. It is above my name and yours.
    I am in Christ and no man who speaks by the spirit calls Him accursed and no man calls Him Lord but by the Spirit. Yeshua is Lord and not us.

  236. Lightning Storm Sep 20th 2013

    The wilderness journey could have been 11 days.

    ‘It is only eleven days journey from Horeb by the
    way of Mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea’
    (on Canaan’s border)
    (Deuteronomy 1:2).

    The wilderness journey could have been between 2-3 years, because God had them stop for Pentecost and the 10 commandments.

    But no, because of their UNBELIEF, their RESISTING THE HOLY SPIRIT, their IDOLATRY…..some of them DIED physical deaths without ever coming out of their wilderness experience.
    And some spent 38 years in the wilderness.

    The choice is OURS, how long the wilderness is, or how many times you have to be dragged through it.

  237. ValleyAnt Sep 20th 2013

    Here goes Grace and mercy. Lol.

    Claudia, the Bible says that fearing God (i.e. AGREEING with all that He says or ‘trembling at His Word’) is the birthplace of wisdom and that therefore, naturally, no wisdom can be had outside of that. You and Inspired and Lightning still seem to be promoting another topic and another gospel. There is no wisdom in that.

    Andrew, I agree: all authority comes from God. It’s commendable to remain loyal to God and not choose your wife over Him as Adam did. By God’s Grace, I’ll love my wife as Christ loves the Church, and I won’t choose her before God for any reason– not yielding to manipulation or led by the soul but by the Spirit, both of us. I truly believe that God has a secret treasure (that He doesn’t advertise) stores away only for people who choose loyalty to Him above family, spouse, children, even brethren. A few who left all these, most of whose rewards weren’t recorded, were people like Philip the deacon-turned-evangelist, Luke the beloved physician, and Abraham our father in the faith.

    Following the above, there’s a beautiful term used only in the OT: to “walk before [God] with whole-hearted devotion”. David admonished Solomon to walk this way, and God defined “whole-hearted devotion” to Abraham: “Walk before Me, AND BE PERFECT” (Gen. 17:1). People who reach this level with God definitely have rewards that are not broadcast to everyone because of the intimacy of it. Many others knew this level; Job knew it as did Isaiah who wrote, “Yes, in the way of Your judgments, we have waited for You. The desire of our soul is for Your Name and for the REMEMBRANCE of You” (26:8). Amen. To tie this back to the original topic, God definitely leads some into the wilderness to pass through the Valley of Achor (Trouble) and of Baca (Weeping) which He makes a doorway of Hope (because “we know that endurance produces hope (maturity)”) and a place of springs, because He wants people He can relate to, who are mature, so He takes some from trouble to hardship, from maturity to maturity:

    Psalms 84:5-7 NKJV

    “Blessed is the man whose strength is in You, whose heart is set on pilgrimage. As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a spring; the rain also covers it with pools. They go from strength to strength [until] each one appears before God in Zion.”

    That’s for everyone here whose strength is in Him and whose heart is set not on lingering but on journeying through this earth until they reach the “City which has foundations (which is eternal) whose Builder and Maker is God.” Have a good night, everyone.

  238. There’s a lot of wisdom in what you’re sharing ValleyAnt… 🙂

  239. Marilyn Crow Sep 20th 2013

    I agree also, thank you Valley Ant.

  240. Marilyn Crow Sep 20th 2013

    Claudia,

    A lot of people get tricked by Gen. 1 & 2. However it is quite straightforward. Gen. 1 is the account of creation, day by day while Gen. 2 is the overview of the details of man & his helper.

    Gen.2 : 18 & 21 flow together while v. 19 & 20 can be bracketed showing how no animals created were suitable as a helper for Adam.

    This is common in God`s word. He writes an overview & then goes on to give the details of the events. We as people do this in our conversations also – the overview, then the details.

    Hope that helps. Marilyn.

  241. Isaiah 3:11-13

    11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him,
    For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
    12 As for My people, children are their oppressors,
    And women rule over them.
    O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
    And destroy the way of your paths.”

  242. watchful Sep 20th 2013

    Amen ValleyAnt………pilgrimage…….and BLESSED is the man!…….going from strength to strength…….from glory to glory. Amen, that is our testimony! We are making progress. There is no argument about being seated in heavenly places, but there are plenty of scriptures too that speak of our wilderness journey and they are also true. These are not mutually exclusive concepts in the life of the believer.

    Lightning Storm, we are supposed to die in the wilderness……..that’s what it is for, and the Israelites dying was a parable of their flesh/carnality dying, their unbelief was slain, because flesh cannot inherit. My God always leads us in triumph, not defeat. If it took God 40 years to prepare Moses in the wilderness, then who am I or any of us to be in a hurry? I have never known Him to be in a hurry, He is always right on time. All I know is to trust and obey how He leads, if you think He is taking too long, then I just don’t know what to say about that, I don’t think He is going according to our ideas of how long a thing should take.

  243. watchful Sep 20th 2013

    When we think we know, then we don’t yet know as we ought. If we think we’ve arrived, we shouldn’t be tempted to put down stakes and camp out there for too long, unless we think we have achieved perfection. Until perfection comes there will always be some patch of wilderness we need to travel through it seems to me. Camping out too long in the last revelation we received not only prevents further progress, but it will start to also become a home for things that are inconsistent with the Spirit of God. Pride can set in, self-righteousness etc, and before too long we will bring out the bricks and mortar and start building a religion on what we think we know. Happened to the Baptists, happened to the Pentecostals. Can happen to anyone. Because it’s not about what we know, but it’s about being ever more transformed. So doesn’t it seem there is that we need to keep moving for the duration of our pilgrimage in this life. Our citizenship is not here, never will be.

  244. Inspired Sep 20th 2013

    Watchful,
    We are to be living stones and not bricks. Bricks are uniform and all look alike, yet living stones have to be placed where they fit.

    If it is not about what we know, why says the scriptures, that people perish for lack of knowledge. Yet scripture also says 1Sam2:3 that the Lord is a God of knowledge, and Job 37:16, the Lord is perfect in knowledge.
    Then in Luke 11:52 it says that ye have taken away the key of knowledge.

    As for going into the desert James 1:14 says each man is tempted when he is drawn AWAY and is enticed by his OWN lusts. Then when the passion is conceived, it gives birth to sin, and the sin when it reaches maturity produces death.
    Christ is the key of knowledge.
    Sin is conceived ( a birth term and applies to male and female gender) in the mind, and why the mind is a battlefield and why we are alienated from God. Desert is death yet even then He who gives perfect gifts from above will cause an oasis for one to drink of life. He is that well of living water of which if we drink will not thirst again.
    Knowledge is important but understanding it is an arsenal for standing when tried.
    No weapon/carnal mind formed against me shall prosper. We are to be renewed by the transforming of the mind.
    Even the most knowledgeable person does not know as they ought, for all eventually die, drop these tents, because they produce death with their corruption, yet even then he promises a new body because every good gift comes down from above.

  245. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    Marilyn; I thank you….but already know that common explanation. Which does not fit what i see. Scripture should not refute what comes before it. The order is refuted. Don’t know what it means….could be error in the Bible….heaven forbid I go there….or it may be something to do with EDEN, apart from earth. I lean towards the latter.

    It all will be cleared up some day.

  246. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    I TOTALLY agree with your statement, ValleyAnt, that the Bible says that fearing God (i.e. AGREEING with all that He says or ‘trembling at His Word’) is the birthplace of wisdom.

    Unfortunately, there is a preponderance of followers who still look to and fear man, more than the word of YHWH. Even to looking towards man to tell them what the Word means….totally ignoring the reason we were given the HOLY SPIRIT. We are to let that Spirit rule in our minds….which are also filled with all we take into them. I have total TRUST in the HOLY SPIRIT bringing me to the Truth…and sorting all things out…as IT knows my sincerity and love for ALL that it is. I have no trust in man….as does the Bible teach.

    I am sorry that this offends you…..that I won’t place myself within the herd.

  247. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    I would go so far as to say the reason that Yeshua sent to us the HOLY SPIRIT, is that HE knew what mankind would do with HIS WORD. They crucified HIM, and they are trying to crucify and bring into alignment with them His Word. I seek no hand to hold, but HIS.

    Take a good look, for example, what the Catholic Church Pope has just uttered!!!!

  248. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    Andrew J Horton, I too have heard that excuse for why Adam sinned. It is not in any way supported by scripture. It is pure conjecture….upon the part of mankind….to once again make what Adam did sound noble….so they won’t feel any shame.

    When I was little I used to be mad at Adam and Eve for what they did…..until YHWH informed me that had I been there I would have done the same thing. We are ALL guilty.

    No truth will be able to find our hearts until we totally remove all excuses that give us worth that we do not deserve.

  249. DonaldN Sep 20th 2013

    Claudia said..
    “Chapter One shows the animals being created in the 5th DAY before the 6th DAY creation of the “human” of earth.

    Chapter Two shows the “human” creation in EDEN being created before the animals.”

    Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
    22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
    23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    On the fifth day God made the sea creatures and fowls. Then on the sixth day He created the land creatures. I don’t see any confusion at all.
    Verse 21 clearly says “all living creatures WHICH THE WATERS BROUGHT FORTH”
    Then after the 5th day He created the living creatures that the earth brought forth.

  250. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    Up until Genesis 3:16, man did not rule over woman. This was part of the judgement that YHWH put upon the man and woman who both had disobeyed HIM. It was a judgement. It was not the way things were before. I bow to YHWH’s judgement….which is an earthly one. I have already explained why I think YHWH did that…as it makes sense to develope into the man what he lacked by not telling Eve…”NO!”.

    Gen.3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    I am most fearfull for my walk, and my self, when I start feeling superior in some matter regarding anything. It is a danger sign. When that “feeling” comes it is never from YHWH. It is the very “feeling” that satan was communicating with Eve and Adam who was with her. That “feeling” even of being superior to YHWH, in that they did not have to listen to what YHWH said, but could even be like HIM. I would be very careful when using anything that YHWH orchestrates as a means of elevating one’s self. We obey HIM with humbleness in order to get at the Truth.

    YHWH, Himself, said that the greatest on this earth will be the least in His House…..and the least on this earth will be the greatest in His House.

  251. watchful Sep 20th 2013

    Yes, Inspired, no argument……So all I’m trying to say is lets keep on being transformed and not stop because we think we know.

  252. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    DonaldN, you are right. But look at the order of creation within that day. I will look at it further also….as the order in Gen. 1 could be not an order of things at all. I studied it a long time ago and came to the conclusion I did. I will look at it again and see if there is room for the warmblooded animals being created after Adam in the Chapter one.

  253. Allison Sep 20th 2013

    Thanks to Devon. His comments posted on September 13 exactly mirror my experiences.

    Yes, I have to say so many people have run from me.

    Also, more than 20 years ago when I was in a church, the pastor told me that if everyone were like me we wouldn’t have church. I guess having someone who was seeking the Lord and listening for His voice and wanting to be about His business was a threat.

    When I was a new believer and in an organized church, the leadership put the fear of God on us if we didn’t tithe. We had to go up in front of everybody and put our tithe in a big plate. I was never so broke! After a while the Lord introduced me to a Spirit Led fellowship. It was here I learned to give as the Lord prompted and my finances turned around. Praise the Lord!!!

  254. DonaldN Sep 20th 2013

    The land creatures were not created after Adam they were created before Man (human).

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. i
    19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. j
    20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

    I assume because of verse 19 you think that is the time God created the land creatures.
    This is not a chronological order of things. It is only stating a fact that God created all the creatures and none of them were found to satisfy Adam’s need for a helper.

  255. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    There is still something eternal regarding EDEN, (a Mystery) as shown in Genesis, Chapter 3 verses. God, ultimately decided that they had to be turned out of Eden so that they would not have eternal life,or acquire it there. And, of course you know that EDEN was than guarded.

    Gen.3: 22-23 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

  256. DonaldN Sep 20th 2013

    Eden is the desire of God for all mankind to exist in.
    The original meaning of Eden is simple, It means “the Pleasure of God”
    God is pleased with our obedience to Him.
    This is Eden.
    Adam disobeyed God, and God no longer had pleasure in him.
    Adam was expelled from Eden, the place of the pleasure of God.
    God still desires all mankind to walk in obedience to Him, and in that we will be in the pleasure of God, in Eden.

  257. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    Andrew; Of course the New Testament Hebrew Apostles taught the laws set forth by YHWH. Yeshua did not come to change the laws but to fullfill them….to point towards our true existence with Him….where the only law will be our agreement and unity with His Will.

    I have already shown you where that law, that they also taught and reinforced in the New Testament, came from…. Gen.3. Why does this bother you so…..that I agree with you in that the man is the head of the woman???? I just don’t think you understand the full ramifications of that position which you hold, and why you hold it.

    You keep talking about rebellion? Are you suggesting that a man is the leader of all women, whether he is married to them or not…as exists in the antichrist religion of Islam? Show me where it says that in the Bible. Is it because I dare to analize your words instead of accepting them as my “gospel” because I am a woman?

    I am truly seeking answers here…..so I won’t feel so alone and separate on this issue.

  258. Claudia Sep 20th 2013

    We could go on and on – but the wilfully blind will not be swayed by any argument.

    Amen…Amen….Amen!

    So….it boils down to muscles making the leader. No wonder the world is in such a mess if that is the primary tool of our leaders. The leader’s position is to provide for those under them.

    In nature, in all studies….and I have all my life studied the books on nature, written by scientist, doctors, and such…..it is made clear that the male was not given his muscles to provide leadership, but to provide the ability to dominate other males (fighting/defending) and the ability to dominate and attrack females to carry on the line. So often the herd is attacked by predators while the males are showing their superiority by using what they have been given (muscles/hormones) fighting other males, or pursuing and dominating females. It is a scientific fact that while the muscles and hormones are taking over the male body, or the female body, the brain power is diminished. Predators know that….satan is a predator.

    Mostly the male in nature is designed to dominate in reproduction, keeping other males from his females, and often is also designed to attrack the females that he needs to reproduce his kind…look at the various birds plumage…and the red behinds of the baboons in the jungles. Look at the calls of the male animals, designed for two things….attracking females, and warning off other males. If you have not studied these things you won’t know what I am talking about.

    Now…I am totally sad that any man of god would look to the designs that YHWH put in nature to cause what He created to spread over all the earth…. to justify his leadership position. You should only need to look towards YHWH to justify your position, Andrew….HE put you there, and it was not for your muscles.

    I cannot discuss this any more because it is becoming too revealing. You best read of the descriptions of Yeshua that are all through the Old Testament. None of those things you hold on to are the ones that He bragged about…and HE is the strongest Man that was ever upon this earth.

    When Adam and Eve were kicked out of EDEN, which had a different set of life rules than did earth…YHWH made sure that the female would have the hormones to be desireous of the man, and he made sure the man had the hormones and muscles to protect and be possessive of his family. HE equipped them to live in the “fallen” world. The “leadeship” that he bestowed on Adam was an entirely different matter….and had nothing to do with his MUSCLES! His muscles were to be used to TILL THE EARTH!

    Peace be with you…..and with me.

  259. Lightning Storm Sep 20th 2013

    watchful

    I have never heard anyone confuse physical death with death of self before.

    Moses did not go into the Promised Land because of his OWN sin. God told him NO.
    He was NOT SENTENCED TO PHYSICAL DEATH.

    The Hebrews who REFUSED TO GO INTO the Promised Land because they did not TRUST GOD to keep His promises to them when the spies returned with an EVIL REPORT, were sentenced to PHYSICAL DEATH.

    They were sentenced to 1 year per DAY that they STUBBORNLY REFUSED TO BELIEVE GOD on their 40 day trip into the Promised Land.

    [Num 14:11-12, 23, 33-34 KJV] 11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

    12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they. …

    23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: …

    BUT MOSES INTERCEDED FOR THE PEOPLE TO THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE KILLED.

    33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

    34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

    INIQUITY, UNBELIEF, AND STUBBORNNESS is what KEEPS PEOPLE in the wilderness.

    Stubbornness is WITCHCRAFT.

  260. Averyl Sep 20th 2013

    Andrew, – wow, the head of every man should be Christ, then men would have His mind, how great that would be for women! That’s our cry! Some women have to defer to men whose head is NOT Christ, causing a great deal of grief.

    I know that’s what scripture says, but lets get a balanced word & not just texts that suit our argument.

    What should women do who whose husbands or pastors obviously do not have the mind of Christ?

  261. Andrew Sep 20th 2013

    Averyl – you said earlier in this thread-
    “But males still want a patriarchal hierarchy so they can lord it over females.”

    Actually, what biblical men want is women who do not have an attitude like that – but who actually take on the biblical mindset on this issue.

    If you have a problem with male “headship” then you have a problem with God – who designed things that way.

    Sorry to be so blunt.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  262. Proverbs 27:15 A continual dripping on a very rainy day
    And a contentious woman are alike;

    16 Whoever restrains her restrains the wind,
    And grasps oil with his right hand.

  263. Averyl Sep 20th 2013

    For many years I had a submissive & meek attitude toward men & those in authority, only to be abused & given bad counsel!

    I still do, but it’s not right that anyone lords it over anyone else!

  264. Relationships either revolve around love or they revolve around dominion.

    The scripture is referring to relationships that revolve around love, but with all of sin and selfishness in the world today most of the relationships revolve around dominion. It is about power over people and control of them.

    Control freaks relationships revolve around dominion and they can quote scripture to justify themselves. Personally, I wouldn’t put up with one either.

    The happier your relationships are the happier you are. When you have love, it is about the kind of relationships that love gives you. People are closer to each other and the relationships are a lot more intimate.

    Averyl, buy a cat. You will like their attitude. .

  265. Andrew Sep 20th 2013

    The “feminist” model of our current disintegrating society is infinitely worse than any “bad counsel” you might receive.

    Feminism is actually helping destroy the entire fabric of our culture.

    When women fight for “co-headship” with men, that is the result. It is nothing to do with ‘Lording over’. It is simply God’s established order.

    “Husbands love your wives… Wives submit to your husband.”

    Simple.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  266. DonaldN Sep 20th 2013

    1 Peter 3:1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,

  267. DonaldN Sep 20th 2013

    Which would be worse? 60 years of abuse and a miserable life here on this planet, choosing to be submissive to a man who does not return the love, nor obey the Lord, but you submit because you believe it is the will of God…
    In the end to hear from God..
    “well done, good and faithful servant!”

    OR…
    rebelling against submission because the culture says women are equal and they have every right to co-headship…..
    in the end to hear
    “I never knew you…”

  268. Marilyn Crow Sep 21st 2013

    Claudia,

    Watchful said some very important things….

    `Camping out too long in the last revelation we received not only prevents further progress, but it will start to also become a home for things that are inconsistent with the Spirit of God.`

    One of the last revelations was `the Holy Spirit,` & people added `and me.` Can you see the error? Of course it is us. We are the fallible ones , but we think that as long as we have the Holy Spirit we are fine. We know that our minds need transforming but we still think we can hear the Holy Spirit clearly, just His Spirit & me.

    And this is exactly what you have said….

    `I have total TRUST in the HOLY SPIRIT bringing me to the Truth…and sorting all things out…as IT knows my sincerity and love for ALL that it is. I have no trust in man….as does the Bible teach.`

    Can you see that you are the fallible one & are expecting to be able to hear God`s Spirit through a mind that needs changing.
    Yes God`s Spirit will bring us the truth but it is us who are not able to receive because we hear/read through our mind sets.

    The answer is to hear God`s Holy Spirit, read God`s word through the guidelines He has given not our own interpretations. His guidelines are firstly the common sense He has given us in our everyday communication as I showed you above – Overview then details, (Gen. 1 & 2) also words `as, like,` etc show that it is symbolic. Once you go beyond clear language you end up with everybody`s opinions.

    Then the two main guidelines that are not understood at the moment are – that Christ is the centre of His word, not us. (Do we go to the word to learn of Him first or about us?) And that He has purposes for 3 groups of people – the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. This is the main misunderstanding & the great error behind our various interpretations.

    So the calling us away to Himself at this time is for us to listen to Him & read His word how He desires us to. Not just the Holy Spirit & me, but the Holy Spirit teaching me through His guidelines of His word.

    If we do this we will not be looking for all manner of strange things. Marilyn.

  269. Lightning Storm Sep 21st 2013

    Averyl…..doubt is not of God, don’t receive the doubt.

    Love FULFILLS ALL THE LAW.

    [Rom 13:10 NASB] 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore LOVE IS the fulfillment of the law.

    [Gal 5:14 NASB] 14 For the WHOLE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

  270. Andrew Sep 21st 2013

    Meaning what, LS?

    That we ignore the New Testament’s clear teaching on this topic?

    -Andrew

  271. watchful Sep 21st 2013

    All right men, now is your chance to be the men of God you are called to be and please give DonaldN an answer.

  272. Lightning Storm Sep 21st 2013

    I don’t advocate ignoring ANY of the scriptures.

    I ALSO don’t advocate building a doctrine on a verse that is taken completely out of context.

    The english word HEAD in 1 Cor 11 is is the Greek word…… kephalē …..(in every verse of chapter 11)

    If you use your definition of that word…AUTHORITY…where “head” is used through out the chapter, it makes no sense even to the carnal mind.

    Not to mention the fact that the “line of authority”, if you use the word AUTHORITY, is putting God having AUTHORITY over Christ….when Christ IS GOD and scripture states that ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO CHRIST.

    I don’t find a definition of this Greek word kephale as being TO LEAD/LEADER.

    And according to Vine’s the word MAN does not mean HUSBAND in this particular verse.

    Greek scholars have disagreed for quite some time as to what Paul was really saying in these verses.

    Some say the word “head” means “TO RULE OVER”, and some say “SOURCE OF LIFE”, and some say “GLORY”, and some say “POWER”.

    Who are we to have finally resolved the disagreement between scholars…..

    Unless, the voice of the Holy Spirit has given a
    Word of Knowledge that interprets this word “head” and any one of us can say “Thus sayeth the Lord……”

    I just find it UNLOVING that a woman has expressed how this SINGULAR INTERPRETATION has caused her so much pain and when she asks “how is this suppose to work in real life when your are being abused?”

    You do not have an answer and neither did anyone else who addressed her comment.

    If you or anyone else has a biblical answer to her question, please feel free to share.

  273. Inspired Sep 21st 2013

    Doubt is 2 channels of judgment/double minded, yours and His. yet if we go by His judgment He gives blessed assurance of a finished work, the opposite of doubt.
    A thief which is what doubt is, robs you of life and joy and peace. Yet he was ransomed for us. When a thief tries to collect the ransom the victim needs proof of life. well scripture says that He was resurrected, and so that is my proof of His finished work.
    Being under a man does not make me righteous, but faith is understood for righteousness. Therefore if I stand before Him, He has said I am righteous.
    Even the pharisees questioned His order-How dare you heal on the sabbath, so is God bound by rules?

  274. Andrew Sep 21st 2013

    LS – you came up with your “unusual” interpretation long before anyone spoke of “abuse”.

    Let’s face it – the concept of men having “authority” just drives you nuts.

    Just like every feminist on the planet.

    How absurd this conversation is becoming, and how it reveals the “take it or leave it” attitude toward Scripture that some here have.

    Why should we ever listen to ANY comment you ever make again? You have shown your total disdain of Scripture when it is not “convenient”. There are MANY verses saying the same thing. You disdain them ALL.

    We need to stop this topic.

    Very sad.

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom.