SIGN OF A TRUE APOSTLE (It’s Not What You Think)

-extracts by J. Lee Grady

A few years ago I heard a preacher tell a room full of ministers that they couldn’t work miracles or exercise apostolic authority unless they used the word apostle as a title. So some of them ran out and printed new business cards—as if putting the word in front of their names was the magic ticket to reclaiming New Testament power.

That was a bad idea. For the past 15 years or more, thousands of
people have been wounded and countless churches have nosedived
because immature leaders thought they could gain apostolic status
the easy way. We are so eager to qualify ourselves that we forget
God alone calls, prepares and sends true apostles.

We are so carnal, so power hungry and so enamored with status
and position that we don’t have a clue what apostolic ministry really
is. Most charismatics think it is about authority, and many men
who claim to be apostles build top-down pyramid structures that
abuse people. Others think apostolic leaders are marked primarily
by sensational miracles. Yet I see something we have entirely
missed when I look at the life of the apostle Paul.

Paul told the Thessalonians that love is the true hallmark of any
person who is sent on an apostolic mission. Therefore, if we want
apostolic power or authority (which we should), it must flow through
apostolic love or it is a counterfeit…

I believe God wants to pour out a new wave of apostolic power on
our generation. But we can’t be trusted with this anointing if we
refuse to grow up. We will have the maturity to use the word
apostolic when we learn to walk in the love that was modeled by
the first apostles.

-READ THE FULL ARTICLE-
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/18982

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on November 13th, 2013 at 9:49 am.

223 comments

223 Replies

  1. For all those that are new to to the teaching of Art Katz here is the link to a classic message on the subject of Apostolic Sending. http://artkatzministries.org/audio-messages/k-482-true-sending-for-true-ministry-1-of-2/

  2. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Art Katz is absolutely genius on this subject.

    -Andrew Strom

  3. yes i have that book its very good, and what can I say, amen to the post very well said.

  4. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Apostolic Foundations by Art Katz

    BRILLIANT!!!

  5. True apostles and prophets are not honoured, nor welcomed in the pulpits and church leadership committees of today. They are in the wilderness preparing for the days when they will announce the coming Kingdom of God and the judgment of all nations. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God

  6. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    “Not honoured, nor welcomed”

    You got that right, my friend!

  7. Yes! Your comments are right on. I think that the essence of being apostolic is to personify Jesus, to be formed in his image and character. Jesus emptied himself, gave himself and humbled himself on behalf of others. The apostle is, in a sense least of all, the servant of all.

  8. The HEART of the matter – “What has happened to this kind of holy affection in today´s church? Why are we so disconnected? We have replaced deep relationships with cold professionalism. Many pastors have not been properly fathered, so they don´t know how to love-nor do they have close friends. So we cover our dysfunction with busyness. We work, work, work-while sterile, loveless congregations struggle to grow. We use gimmicks and programs to get people in seats because our love is not warm enough to attract people to Jesus.”

  9. watchful Nov 13th 2013

    $1000/hr CONSULTING fees???? That is not the simple humble church of Jesus Christ, that is the church of false christs, of mixture and halting between two opinions, ie serving two masters, both God and Baal. We should not be yoked with her at all…….that was Ahab’s fatal mistake in being unequally yoked with jezebel, she is a type of the harlot church and false doctrines is their offspring….

    2Cr 6:14-18

    Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

  10. watchful Nov 13th 2013

    Just some thoughts but don’t apostles go out and preach the word and convert souls, and then disciple them? In simplicity. No title, no business cards (!?!!), they do the dirty work of getting the lost sheep they have rescued up on their feet and established in Christ, a thankless job, as someone has said with the sheep muck running down their back. Nor do they ask for any thanks or other earthly rewards. They are at the end of the procession and counted as the refuse of the earth, as Paul said, probably having a lot to do with being covered in that muck and the humble people they are willing to identify with and love as equals and co-heirs. I wonder how many would be willing to print “scum-of-the-earth” as their title on those shameful business cards?

    Just yesterday, I was thinking about apostles and looking at where Judas had to be replaced and asking God why. Was it just to show that nobody is indispensable or is there more to it? Bible says we have not many fathers, is it possible there are not more than 12 or 13 true apostles in the whole world chosen at any one time? Though many more may be called, only a few are chosen? Whoever they may be I think we can be reasonably sure they are labouring off the radar of the traditional church.

  11. Jo Sappenfield Nov 13th 2013

    I remember as a teenager attending the Philadelphia Church in Ballard, Washington. Art Katz was one of my favorite visiting preachers. The fire of God fell on us as we were convicted of our lukewarmness. I remember all those invitations to stand in acknowledgment of our willingness to pay the price and go the distance WITH GOD. I loved the two edged sword of the Word of God rarely wielded with skillful accuracy anymore–dividing between soul and spirit bringing with it an invitation to choose God over good–there is a huge difference. There are many fine good people–totally impotent when it comes to the impact of their Christian testimony upon others because THEY WANT IT THAT WAY. It COSTS to be set apart. Its not fun. Its a battle–waiting, day after day just keeping one’s own temple a place for God to dwell by His Spirit so that when the effectual door of ministry opens it will be effectual for KINGDOM IMPACT and the furtherance of eternal purposes. FAITHFULNESS to HIM does not mean faithfulness to the traditions of the church world. It will mean even going against them. Paul wrote that no one should bother him about the authenticity of his credentials because he bore in his body the “MARKS” of an apostle. Those marks did not have to be paraded however–like some do today. But the “marks” aren’t pretty and if they are–chances are there is no substance. The evidence of Paul’s marks wasn’t in talking about them–it was in the fruit. it was in the VIABLE–able to reproduce FELLOWSHIPS whose existence still serves, still multiplies it faith today–even those believers are in heaven right now. VESSELS of Honor–we reproduce after our own kind! I’m glad I’m hidden–I was just prayng about this morning–it is God who chooses–but I think that it is still a treasure to be able to recognize those that are and support them.

  12. Darren Sargent Nov 13th 2013

    Apostles have to be called by the will of God – it can never be by the will of Man, either ours or someone else’s. Paul says this at the beginning of Romans and Galatians: this is the fundamental mystery of being an Apostle.

    Apostles never consult flesh and blood; they are immediately sent out into the wilderness.

    Apostle are Apostles by revelation only.

  13. Darren Sargent Nov 13th 2013

    The thought that Art is no longer on the Earth . . . well I can’t say. I cry just thinking about it. What a dear dear man of God. Missed and longed-for so much; where will such a one come again? I will just have to weep in the secret place. . .

  14. Ed Nenonen Nov 13th 2013

    While in Africa I have become acquainted with a man named Dunstan Maboya from Tanzania. My contact has been limited but in talking with him and experiencing the authority and actual power in his ministry, many undeniable miracles, he also has an amazing measure of humility. John Alexander Dowie in 1896 when someone called him an apostle he declared he lacked apostolic humility. That became evident later when he declared himself “that prophet spoken of by Moses.” I have a friend in Kenya who was paralyzed for 6 years in both legs and one arm until the Lord healed him and gave him the gift of english and shows him scriptures to preach from on an invisible screen, he serves as an Evangelist but I wouldn’t call him an apostle. But with Dunstan there is an ability to give honor to those who are pastoring in the Churches he has established. He has said don’t honor people like me. I only need a few good messages can visit your Church speak a great message and leave. He told the people to respect the leaders among them that go to the jail and hospital with you and work to give you messages regularly. He has a genuine humility and great authority (miracles) and of all the ministries I have seen, this man has true apostolic authority. Jesus said come and learn of me for I am MEEK and LOWLY of heart. Just a side note, I loved Art Katz. I’ve never heard anyone talk about sacrifice like Art. He often left us bleeding as he pierced us with his words. He is greatly missed.

  15. gloria Nov 13th 2013

    I have a problem with this statement:.Many pastors have not been properly fathered, so they don´t know how to love-nor do they have close friends
    I believe the FATHER is GOD and HIS LOVE , when a person is truly, truly accepted HIM as SAVIOUR, love will be shed abroad in our hearts by HIS SPIRIT.. I do not believe for one minute any earthly degree of parenting or whatever earthly has anything to do with spiritual. God can call the darkest of darkest of family up bringing and take them into apostles and HIS LOVE for them and what HE has brought them from causes LOVE within them. (like Mary the prostitute) whom much has been forgiven, loves much, This sort of thinking edges on psychology to me and I do not agree with it. God is able , if we are willing, to yield our life to HIM alone. He can take the vilest of sinners, the darkest of depths and to pour LOVE into a person without any FATHER, MOTHER, LOVE , ORPHANS , and place them in an apostolic position. There is no excuse for to days apostle other than they are not yielded to the FATHER of LOVE, that is the problem, that is the source,.

  16. The church is a closed shop. Paul would not be welcome with his ministry. God would have to open up those cast iron religious doors. I learned it the hard way. Preached anointed revivals for 2 years. Pastors cast me out because of their jealousy and envy. My last ditch effort is when God had us make a movie even about natural affection. The bulk of the church has NO interest in a free copy. Deader than dirt. Waiting for further doors.

  17. Lightning Storm Nov 13th 2013

    AMEN…… Jo Sappenfield and Gloria!

    And Devon..I love that phrase you used “deader than dirt”…still laughing about the connection to Genesis. LOL

  18. Barry Schmidt Nov 13th 2013

    Below is Paul’s inspired version of “FOUNDATIONS for the APOSTOLIC” here he not only exposes the false apostolic (why wasn’t anyone reading this to the NEW Apostloc reformation crowd) as well as the marks of a true apostle.
    ANYONE STILL WANT TO BE AN APOSTLE???

    Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, but life in you. (2 Corinthians 4:1, 2, 8-12 NASB)

    but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:4-10 NASB)

    For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles. But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things. Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge? I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you; and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be stopped in the regions of Achaia. Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. But in whatever respect anyone else is bold-I speak in foolishness-I am just as bold myself. Are they servants of Christ?-I speak as if insane-I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern? (2 Corinthians 11:4-15, 18, 20, 21, 23-29 NASB)

    Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? (2 Corinthians 12:10, 12, 15 NASB)

  19. Barry Schmidt Nov 13th 2013

    When we see this kind of apostolic suffering we will see true apostolic power – until then the so called apostolic reformation movement is a joke – a bunch of wannabe’s!! Paaaleeeezza!
    Just because a man can plant a thousand new churches doesn’t make him and apostle.

  20. L. Alex Smith Nov 13th 2013

    II Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle [sent-forth-one: apo=away, stellon=sent] of Jesus Christ, by the will of God…”
    It was by the will of God, not man’s idea.
    I Corinth. 9:1 “Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord [in the Vision on the Damascus Road, Acts 9:17] v.2 …for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.” I think he means, the fact that all of you are in the Lord, saved, is the seal -like an official seal on a document that ratifies its authenticity.
    I Cor. 2:4 “…and my speech and my preaching were not in enticing words of man’s wisdom, but rather in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God.” No flowery language, but genuine miracles.
    II Corinth. 12:12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” Patience being first on the list– read the preceding verses, 10-11. He mentions reproaches, necessities (meaning great lack of everyday stuff, hmmm, the prosperity teachers don’t mention THAT too often), in distresses for Christ’s sake.
    True signs and wonders, with persecution. False signs and wonders with stadiums and arenas filled with people– but the WORLD takes no notice–…
    I’ve always understood that an apostle was to be “sent forth” (but by GOD, not just by a church organisation)…that they Establish churches, doing the work of an Evangelist as well…with a Prophetic ministry, speaking words from God that pierce the heart… and that they pastor, or shepherd a “flock” into deeper realms in the Lord, at least for a season before moving on.
    Paul did all these things. After the 11 chose Matthias by CASTING LOTS to replace Judah– no more is ever heard of him. One of the Twelve? Hmmm, maybe. Was Paul the 13th, or was he the 12th, Matthias fading into obscurity, because he really wasn’t chosen by the Will of God, but just by man’s artifice? Read all about it in Acts 1:15-26. Verse 22 is THEIR qualifier: “Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he (Jesus) was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a Witness with us of his resurrection.” Paul fit none of those requirements! Hmmm.

  21. I know of no one today with the apostolic anointing of Art Katz. He truly was “the thing in itself”. I pray the Lord will raise up thousands in these last days with the same anointing. His website has hundreds of messages that are well worth listening to. Many are truly life changing.

    http://artkatzministries.org/audio-messages/numerical-listing/numerical-index-of-audio-teachings/

    A QUESTION FOR ANDREW: Do you know of anyone today with a true Apostolic anointing like Art had?

  22. Right on Lee I could not agree with you more about these false apostles we have in these last days.

  23. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Art Katz was a pretty unique guy, my friend….

  24. May I ask why the focus on the man Art Katz…? Yes, he was a wonderful man of God, raised up by God, used by God – yet I am sure he would point all away from himself, and ‘insist’ that they focus on the person of Lord Jesus Christ.

    These are the men of God, whom I will respect, ‘leaders’ who do not desire that people follow them, who do not desire to be recognised, honoured or welcomed – they desire only to share Christ Jesus as Lord, to share His truths, His gospel, and that salvation is only through the cross, the shed blood, of Lord Jesus.

    A couple of comments above have touched on this – the true ‘men of God’, raised up in His time and place, humbled, servants, doing His work, where and when He directs – yet shunning, hiding, from the glory that others desire to place on them.

    Once ‘we’ start looking to a man or women that God uses, naming and promoting them above the position where God is using them – ‘we’ diminish their effectiveness for God, ‘we’ endanger them.

    He desires all glory, all praises, all worship.

    We shouldn’t, we mustn’t, mourn the passing of a man or woman of God – when ‘we’ have promoted them above the vessel of clay that He has created.

    We still have their teachings, their wisdom, in writing, and in audio.

    Most importantly we still have the source of those teachings in Lord Jesus.. ..and He promised that He would never leave us.

    Friends, brothers and sisters – please – let us promote Lord Jesus, let us give all Glory to Almighty God – only He is deserving of our praise and worship.

    In His love,
    Roger

  25. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Which is why the New Testament never mentions any of the “names” of the original apostles.

  26. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Because no ‘honour’ is ever to be given.

  27. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    No “names” are ever to be used.

  28. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    And Jesus is our only leader.

  29. Bill Harper Nov 13th 2013

    It isn’t those who call themselves apostles, but those who call themselves, Christians, in general, who have failed in the last several generations. When I was young, nearly 70 years ago the Christian people in the U.S.A. (I now think of it as Ungodly Sodom of America) set the standards for the nation. Almost all businesses were closed on Sunday so people could rest and worship God. Sodomy and Abortion were against the law. Men respected women to they didn’t use foul language around them, and the country had much more godly standards than we do today. Instead of the Christians setting the standards for the nation, the worldly have set the standards for the “so-called” Christians, and and the term “Christian” doesn’t mean anything any more. Especially when the president of the U.S.A. can claim to be “a Christian by choice,” and people actually believe that an abortion, sodomy, and all other kinds of wickedness promoting president actually believe he is a “Christian.” Acts 11:26 tells us that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” In other words, the first Christians were disciples, not those with out any discipline who “repeated the sinners prayer,” and lived for themselves and the devil the rest of their lives. We hide our lights (too often) under the bushels we call our churches. Only when we make Jesus the true Lord of our lives, the most important thing in our lives, and live for Him continually, can we go back to influencing our corner of the world like “Christians” did when I was young. In Christian Love, Bill Harper

  30. Roger. I don’t believe many here would seek to put any human even close to being on par with Jesus. But our Father did gift his Church with those who’s giftings are meant for our growth in the knowledge and experience of Him and his life.

    Paul also tells us to give honor, and even double honor to those that serve well. This is not deifying these saints. They simply serve as examples to us, just as Paul asked those in Corinth to follow his example in living out the Life of Christ IN THEM.

    Reading about those few saints of God that both started and FINISHED the race well is a cause to glorify God. It also reminds us that the life within us is the same life they had. The life Jesus told us to live can be lived!

  31. Andrew my friend – as you said previously, with forum comments and emails, sometimes the message is lost because of the lack of face to face contact :-(

    To clarify – I do wonder why some look back at those men of God who are now dead, called home and spiritually with Him, who were used by Him, in His timing, place and for His purposes – and pose a question, asking for God to raise up men such as those… when, we all have Lord Jesus, are indwelt by His Holy Spirit, who is the source of the writings and teachings of those men.

    Are we looking to those ‘men’..? or are we looking to the source of their teachings and wisdom..? that is the point I was trying to share.

    It isn’t that we don’t remember those men, it isn’t that we don’t value the teachings that they shared – and that we may pass onto others. Yes, we do name names, we do refer to the apostles who are named in scripture, we do refer to their teachings – surely however, we should always give glory for that wisdom and teaching to Christ Jesus our Lord – as did they.

    Yes God raises up men as leaders – but as Lee shares above – whether apostles, prophets or leaders – these ones raised up by God will not be self promoting, they will be recognised by other body members for their spiritual anointing, the indwelling Holy Spirit in other body members will bear witness to those ones God given giftings and abilities.

    The good news will always be that God is in control, has always raised up men (and women), to be prepared and used of Him, and is still doing so, and will continue to do so, in every gifting and ability that He desires, and as He chooses. :-)

    In His love,
    Roger

  32. Marty – I believe we agree in this :-)

  33. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Actually – I don’t believe we do.

    Certainly not in “practice” anyway.

    But oh well.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  34. Paul told us who he was – an Apostle – and he told us what he did – as per the scriptures shared above by Barry and others – not to “impress” us with his “amazingness” but to give us an example to follow…

    Those called to be Apostles are the subjects of special “humiliation” with God…

    He takes them through the “Lamentations 3:1-33″ process… :-)

  35. To look exclusively to Jesus as our only source seems to be a very “spiritual” thing to do. But we are also part of the body of Christ that God ordained to be the instrument by which we are built up and prepared to be his Bride. Jesus and his body are ONE and it is HIS desire that we learn and grow from the giftings of each part of His body.

    The Body of Christ is to be honored because it IS the body of Christ. Giving honor and submission to each other is something we are commanded to do. When you honor a part of he body you are honoring Christ.

  36. Watchful Wrote: $1000/hr CONSULTING fees???? That is not the simple humble church of Jesus Christ, that is the church of false christs, of mixture and halting between two opinions, ie serving two masters, both God and Baal. We should not be yoked with her at all…….that was Ahab’s fatal mistake in being unequally yoked with jezebel, she is a type of the harlot church and false doctrines is their offspring…………….

    Watchful,

    I don’t know what you are talking about here. What is this with the 1000.00 deal.

    Lord Bless,
    Gary

  37. AJH – We agree here – Barry’s was one of the comments that I referred to.. and Paul always pointed toward Lord Jesus, and away from Himself. :-)

  38. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    “A prophet is not without honour… EXCEPT….”

    Except where and among who?

    Was Jesus saying this was a good thing? Or bad?

    -Andrew.

  39. Marty – Ultimately Jesus is my source, and may I suggest that He is yours also..?

    Whether He uses Paul, Art, Dave, Andrew, any other member of His Body, or the Holy Spirit directly – whomever He chooses to use to speak to us, He is the source.

    You will know that Paul explains in 1 Cor.12 that the Holy Spirit is the One who determines, apportions, divides, determines: giftings, administrations, ministries, operations, activites, workings – as He chooses, wills and intends.

    Yet He is the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God, and yes – Paul further explains, by likening these differences to body parts, that we are many body members but one body – that when one suffers, all suffer, when one is honoured, all rejoice.

    Does that mean we raise one body member above another, or reject another body part as being lessor…? No, Paul rejects this, and so should we.

    In His love,
    Roger

  40. Andrew – I will listen, respect, receive, a prophet who is raised up by God, and speaks the words of God.

  41. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    I do not agree with prophets “honouring” themselves.

    But I do believe something powerful happens when a true prophet is honoured and received.

    Sadly this almost never happens today in the West.

    Unless they are dead. And even then……

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom

  42. Roger. Of course Jesus is our source. He is the Head of the Body and we live by His life. But we certainly grow and receive blessings from the body which is HIS body. And God ordained that it be this way.

    We don’t raise a body part above another. That which is highest is the servant of all. I admire certain Godly men and women because of the servant hearts and wisdom they have received from God, not their positions.

    Paul would not have asked believers to imitate his life if he did not realize the importance of setting an example. They wept when they knew they would not see him again and obviously held him in very high esteem and felt no shame in honoring him. I’m sure the Lord was pleased to see this. It does not mean they loved Jesus any less, but that they realized the treasure in an earthen vessel they had in Paul. There is nothing wrong with that IMO.

  43. Averyl Nov 13th 2013

    Bill Harper, – The US President is not a Christian or believer in the God of the OT. Look at youtube.Obama.mocking the Bible, Jesus etc..

  44. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    “We get the leaders we deserve”.

    Obama was voted in by the majority of Americans.

    I believe he is part of the ‘judgment’ that is occurring there – hopefully resulting in brokenness and hunger for Truth in the end.

    We live in hope.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  45. Marty – in His love, – we agree, we just use different words at times.

    Whether one is an Apostle, prophet, teacher, minister, encourager, helper, whatever – I give thanks to God that He has raised them up, and that they have accepted His preparation of them. Each body part is unique in His eyes, each has a differing walk and work to do.

    I believe it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that will ‘witness’ when body members meet, that same Spirit will confirm whether the gifting, ministry, position, is genuinely of God, or counterfeit.

    Paul was chosen, raised up by God – for His purposes, at that time. Should we look back and desire another Paul..? or should we be grateful (as you say, and I agree) that he accepted, and walked, his being chosen and prepared by God.

    That is my point – we accept these men for who they were in God, not yearn that they be repeated or cloned.

    We look to the now, be aware that whilst great men of God are no longer physically with us – He is still in the business of raising others up, preparing, testing, cleansing, and using as He sees fit – when and where He chooses. When we meet these ones, we support, encourage, love – as He directs and uses us. In that way we are recognising other members of His body.

    In Christ Jesus our Lord,
    Roger

  46. …something powerful happens when a true prophet is honoured and received.

    This is so true… :-)

    Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. (Matthew 10:41 NIV)

    When we line ourselves up underneath various different giftings as the Lord leads us and acknowledge them as being what they are – who they are – then we receive the flow of the anointing through these giftings – these individuals…

    This is a free will decision which we all make – as the Lord reveals this to us – not an enforced decision – it must come through personal revelation from the Lord – because it flows from the heart…

    The Anointing flows through authority…

    God doesn’t recognise “pretend agreements” our “lining up” must be from the heart – in submission to Him – then the authority will flow through us… :-)

  47. Andrew J H,

    Yes, we are to receive a God called and raised prophet of God..

    The danger is receiving a false prophet or prophecy, and ‘aligning’ ourself under that person or prophecy. If there is a heartfelt submission to that false person or prophecy – what ‘anointing’ comes through then..? and under whose authority..?

  48. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    Round and round we go…………

  49. Andrew Strom Wrote:
    “We get the leaders we deserve”.

    Obama was voted in by the majority of Americans.
    Andrew Strom quote………………………

    Andrew,
    Not trying to be obnoxious here. But the majority vote went to Romney.

    Obama was voted in with the electoral vote. It was only a few states up in New England area that made the decision. They have more electoral votes then most of the other states.

    GaryB

  50. If we are surrendered to the Holy Spirit then we will hear His Voice – as a pattern in our lives we will more and more and more hear His Voice…

    If we hear His Voice then we need to obey His Voice – this has nothing to do with any other human being telling us anything – this is us hearing His Voice either directly or through another human being or even through an angel, i.e. we know that we have heard His Voice…

    If we don’t obey His Voice – when we know that we have heard His Voice – then we are grieving Him – and are also in rebellion against Him…

    We do not live in fear of being deceived…

    We live in trust that He will be faithful to let us – as His sheep – hear His Voice – as an ever increasing pattern in our lives…

    We also do not live in fear of being abused…

  51. My heart overflows with love just imagining how much Paul could have enjoyed having the ability, as do we, to connect with Saints all over the world at the touch of a button. I Marvel at this wonder. I believe his tone in this environment would be so humble and meek.
    I was pondering Brother Grady’s article and it occurred to me the thing Paul most intimated about himself – A willingness to die. Oh how I want to die for Jesus. I can’t think of a better way to enter the joys of the Lord. Just think, one moment your head lying on an ice cold chopping block, wicked men blaspheming the good name by which he had been called – knowing in a split second then Jesus face to face. Oh praise God forever!
    Many of the early Believer’s found no abiding land here and could not wait for the opportunity to give the utmost for His Majesty’s highest.
    I am kinda getting that homesick longing just talking about it. Hey, come on everyone, lets go to the cross together, so that we also might rise in the resurrection power of Jesus Christ during the little time we have left here.

    Oh how I love you all

    Brother Wade Hurt
    [email protected]

  52. watchful Nov 14th 2013

    GaryB, in answer to your question about where I got the $1000 comment from: I clicked on the link that Andrew provided and read the full article…it’s linked to Charisma magazine website. What is posted is only part of Lee Grady’s full article.

  53. Andrew Nov 14th 2013

    In answer to GaryB (above), America clearly voted for Obama (though I personally would not have voted for him). Here are the facts of the matter-

    Barack Obama had a vote total well in excess of 62 million, as compared with Mitt Romney’s 58.8 million. The president’s popular-vote margin in excess of 3 million.

    Barack Obama won more popular votes than any Democratic candidate for president in history—except Barack Obama in 2008.

    Barack Obama is the first Democratic president to win more than 50 percent of the popular vote in a re-election run since Franklin Delano Roosevelt in 1944.

    “We get the leaders we deserve.”

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  54. Very interesting, the direction this hollowed subject has gone. Sitting here in the very revival prone Lexington Kentucky USA, there is something I wish to add. First, the powers that be behind the throne i.e. the spiritual wickedness in high places has nearly exhausted themselves trying to divide America. The poor little fallen fellers are plumb tuckered out and shaking in their pointy toed boots. They know we will shortly bruise them under our feet. America aint going down like everyone thinks. Its a great day in America – I say a great day. The last – day great revival is going to begin right here in me and spread across the world like a blazing fire in a parched grassland. Its true… I heard teeth chattering like reed blowing in the wind and it wasn’t the Church I heard. Get ready world, American might be down, but don’t count us out. Jesus is coming after a glorious Church! Not having spot, nor wrinkle or any such thing.
    Your watching the wrong America if your watching the news. We are just fine. Be glad were here. We’ve given a lot of blood and money and prayer for the rest of the world. Yes we’ve made our mistakes and committed our sin, but God is not going to forget our labor of love. In fact, I think I hear that wind blowing right now and it is a mighty one.

    Oh how I love you all

    Brother Wade

  55. Andrew Nov 14th 2013

    I pray you are right, Wade.

    Close to 3 years of Obama left.

    I see no true Revival in America during that time.

    Division? – Yes.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  56. Oh my lovely, beautiful and wonderful companion in the faith – it is here. Incidentally Brother Andrew, did you ever get cleared to come back to the States? I would love you meet you in person.

    Wade

  57. Bill Harper Nov 14th 2013

    Averyl, It ought to be evident to everyone that Obama is really a Muslim, out to destroy the U.S.A. from the highest office in the country, but there is very little discernment today, and the man who calls himself Barack Husein Obama first produce a birth certificate with the name Barry Soetoro. A boxer by the name of Casius Clay, years ago changed his name to Muhamed Ali, but when Barry Soetoro calls himself Barack Obama, and then says he is a “Christian by choice,” many people don’t seem to have the sense to know what a liar this man is although it depends on who he is talking to what he says. He tries to say what he thinks people want to hear, but he certainly in NOT a Christian by any means.

  58. Andrew Nov 14th 2013

    He strikes me as a secularist – not a Muslim.

    But I believe Obama is part of the judgment that is underway.

    What direction the USA takes from here depends on whether there is heart-change or not.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  59. I have to agree with Andrew. I know of many movements imitating revival in this country, but no true Holy Spirit wrought repentance and revival. At least not in the historic sense of the word.

    If anyone here knows of a genuine revival in this country would you please let us know? Same goes for a true prophetic voice.

  60. Richard Nov 14th 2013

    Does anyone think it is not safe to say Apostle’s ministries usually include a fair bit of relationship coaching about relationships that revolve around love?

  61. Once again I say, with a great big heart of joy, revival has begun in America – I mean a major revival and renewal and it is going to touch the rest of the world as well. How do I know? I’m in it! It has begun in me. Come see it – it will blow your feeble mind of unbelief!

    Oh how I love you all so very much!

    Brother Wade

  62. Revival is Truth, Transparency, Unity, Justice, Tranquility, Defense, Goodwill and the Blessings of Liberality. What nation ran to the aid of the Philippines? What people emptied their already taxed wallets? What nation accepts as their responsibility to do so. I rebuke this speech in the name Christ! My grandfathers and fathers and brother and sisters and uncles shed and gave blood for people they had no relationship with. Is there any greater love than that one should lay down his life for another? Is there?
    Stop your filthy talk about her. If you be free, it is because we are free. Our President is simply a man under the influence of wicked Spirit’s. Shall we call fire down from heaven? You know not what Spirit you are of? The man has a soul – pray for him!
    The man can experience sweeping Spirit birthed revelation and instantly move in the Spirit! New men in office is not the answer – men of Truth and Transparency, Unity and Justice, Tranquility and the defense of the defenseless is what we will have. I would rather have ten atheist in America who abide by this good and right principles, than that of ten Christians in foreign lands who are confused, dazed and immobilized by stinking religion. Pure religion and undefiled is to visit the fatherless, those in prison, widows and orphan’s… is not this the fast which God has chosen? Isa 58:6-9 “Is this not the fast that I have chosen:To loose the bonds of wickedness,To undo the heavy burdens,To let the oppressed go free,And that you break every yoke? 7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;When you see the naked, that you cover him,And not hide yourself from your own flesh? 8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning,Your healing shall spring forth speedily,And your righteousness shall go before you;The glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard. 9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer;You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’
    Pray for us, your life and freedom depends on it. God is not finished with America!
    “If you take away the yoke from your midst,The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, 10 If you extend your soul to the hungry And satisfy the afflicted soul,Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,And your darkness shall be as the noonday. 11 The LORD will guide you continually,And satisfy your soul in drought,And strengthen your bones;You shall be like a watered garden,And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. 12 Those from among you Shall build the old waste places;You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.
    My God people – stop speaking what you do not wish to come to pass. Do you not understand that you frame you future by the Words you speak?

    I love you all with a special tenderness, though you be stiff necked and full of unbelief.

    Brother Wade

  63. Lightning Storm Nov 14th 2013

    LOL

    This is the most unusual collection of posts I have yet to see on this website!

    I will make a comment about Andrew Strom’s statement:

    “WE GET THE LEADERS WE DESERVE”

    Please remember that statement. It applies to ALL situations that you find yourself in.

    You ALSO get the Leaders that you deserve in the churches!

    Hmmm…do you also get the Leaders you deserve in the families, too?

  64. I hear you Roger, others have shared similar words as yours, but many can’t hear because their ears are closed.

    Marty, who really wants to hear a true apostle and prophet speak? Many people are crying out for true revival, true apostles and prophets, but when they come preaching the cross and repentance, piercing hearts with the sword of the Spirit, they are stoned and cast out, are they not?

  65. Andrew Nov 14th 2013

    True, Tyrone.

    Sadly true.

  66. Richard Nov 14th 2013

    Any true apostle or prophet these days is probably going to have something to say about pastors and Christians being into the occult. In the book of acts people the apostles ministered to repented and changed their evil ways and came back to fellowship with God and holiness and learning God’s ways.

    Most of the church praying for revival is interested in a revival where the occult is tolerated and accepted, winked at and justified and hidden from the children of the light. Good luck getting a real apostle to put up with that.

  67. Andrew Wrote: In answer to GaryB (above), America clearly voted for Obama (though I personally would not have voted for him). Here are the facts of the matter-quote………………..

    Andrew,
    I stand corrected here, I am not into politics and I had read an article a year or two ago that stated what I shared. Obviously you cannot believe everything you read on the internet. :)

    Years ago a man of God in our area had a vision while praying. He saw in this vision a faceless black man. The Lord showed him at that time that he was going to judge America for the sins she committed against the black race.

    I believe we are reaping some of that judgement at this time.

    I read a testimony book written by Robert Sadler, who was a slave in the south around 1960. He became a Christian and escaped from down south and moved up north. We still had slaves in the sixties that were treated horribly, even by some who regularly attended church.

    It is a very good book and it gives us a window in which we can look and see how men tortured other men for no reason at all. Just because their skin was another color.

    Anyway wanted to share that, next time I will check out my references before spouting off. LOL

    Lord Bless,
    Gary

  68. Excellent word! It always gives me joy to read such a word when it (the word) is reinforcement for what the Lord is telling me. Leaders claim that believers must first sit beneath them of others like them before being released to their calling. They have built themselves a kingdom, and without their congregations to take care of them …. depend on them … they wouldn’t be able to support themselves … for they have no other skills. It would be different if they had “power” from on high … but what they have is words and rules and do this and do that …. 10 steps to 10 steps … holding the people in bondage to their system/themselves. Sow seed into their ministries … when seed(s) was never intended to mean money. “Their is something about that $1,000 seed … HaHa yes there is indeed … it goes from your pocket to theirs! It buys their fancy cars and houses and suits …. and asking for more their congregations lack. Yuck!

    The next move of God coming will “Move” and expose these servants of satan. Yeah …. I’m talking about most pastors.

  69. watchful Nov 14th 2013

    How grateful I am that my God doesn’t treat me as I deserve! If we think we are deserving then it means we are thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. When He chastises us it’s because He is treating us as sons. If we are truly being careful how we build, the more we go along the more we find out how undeserving we are, and the more humble and grateful we become because of it, as well as loving Him more because of it…this is how love is being perfected.

    On crossing paths with a true servant of God fully following Christ, the only thing that arises in me is love, not admiration. Because all you see is Jesus, not the person. There was nothing in Jesus that we should admire Him. To honour a real servant of God is to treat them in a way they know they don’t deserve.

    It’s a fine line sometimes between honouring and idolizing, and as long as I’m in this body of flesh I will need reminding to stay on the right side of that fine line, else I might soon end up with beatification rites.

    Please don’t forget to test the voices. Receiving a prophet is like receiving anybody, it is just in normal everyday simplicity and doesn’t need lengthy explanations or undue attention. The prophet’s reward is simply receiving what the prophet has from the Lord. Anything more than this is from the evil one. Anything more than simplicity is always from the evil one.

  70. Yes Tyrone, I completely agree with you. Thats why I’m asking if anyone knows of anyone left that has a real apostolic and prophetic anointing like a Katz or Ravenhill. People could disagree with them all they wanted, but when Gods Spirit showed up powerfully to authenticate their message, it was a lot harder to pick up the stones.

    I’m sure they are out there. You surely won’t find them on Christian television, radio, most any church etc. I believe Gary Kroeze is still alive and he had a definite powerful anointing, but I know of no others?

  71. AWESOME! As always, hits the nail right on the head. I consider myself fortunate that when I was a baby Christian in the 70’s that I had exceptional teaching from an independent fellowship that met every Tuesday night, called TAG. They taught us about discernment and always stressed the Word. One thing I learned that I have never forgotten is that when it come to believing man and believing the Bible, to believe the Bible. Although the last church I attended had a very loving and caring pastor, the visiting speakers were more frequently from the apostolic movements, many of which were names Andrew mentions in his book. One Sunday, after a weekend seminar (which I didn’t attend) the Holy Spirit hit me so hard that I had to leave the device and spent the rest of the time walking around the church and the church grounds, just weeping and weeping and praying for the church.

    One “prophet” who visited fairly regularly was finally asked to forego his visits by the pastor because (I think) he always made a plea for money to support his family. He also made many false prophecies, which told me right the that he was not called to this by God. Very sad. Although we had some ” right on” teachers at the church I finally left because of the drift toward the other movement. Currently I am not attending any fellowship.

    As far as Art Katz, I came across him “accidentally” (no coincidences with God) while surfing youtube. I was absolutely fascinated and surely his messages cut straight to my heart. I look forward to meeting him in the Kingdom when it is my time to go.

    Thank you for the timely and true messages that are sent each week.

  72. Averyl Nov 14th 2013

    Do any of you remember the days about 30 years ago when many Christians thought Kissinger could be the aniti-Christ? I think kiwi Barry Smith suggested that. Well Kissinger is still around & is one of Obama’s mentors, pushing for the New World Order & global government.

    Art Katz, – many years ago when he was in NZ 2 carloads of us went to see him at Auckland’s Baptist Tabernacle. He left a lasting impression on us all.

    As for teachers today, I like David Pawson.

  73. When we know who we are in God – because the Lord has shown us this deeply in our own hearts – then we are released to get “underneath” others to enable them to be all that they are meant to be in God…

    True leadership is lifting others up to be all that they are meant to be in God… :-)

    And there is great joy in this… 😀

  74. Lightning Storm Nov 15th 2013

    This is the first time I have listened to Art Katz’s videos.

    http://youtu.be/65d8Key9Z1E

    I am astonished,
    Because many of you who have raved about Art Katz’s teachings…….have over the years denied (on this website or the JBTV website) many of the points that Art Katz teaches!

    English IS my first language, but I recall many “discussions” from the past that refute some of the truths I heard in Art Katz’s videos.

    I have attached a video that is EXPLICIT in answering the question of today’s article about apostles.

    After all, Jesus was called an Apostle.

    Hbr 3:1 NASB
    Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

    2Cr 12:12 NASB
    The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

    The “sign” of an apostle (which in the Greek means messenger of the good news….a missionary)…..
    IS CHRIST BEING MANIFESTED WITH SIGNS, WONDERS, AND MIRACLES CONFIRMING THE GOOD NEWS.

  75. ValleyAnt Nov 15th 2013

    Paul, thanks for that link.

    Watchful, Paul was actually the fourteenth apostle, if we have to be more precise: there were twelve; the twelfth killed himself; a thirteenth was chosen (Matthias); then Paul. However, there were many more, and we don’t know how many besides Matthias were made apostles before Paul was. Barnabas, Jesus’ brother(s), and several others may have become apostles before Paul, but we aren’t told. Therefore, until the Lord reveals hidden things, we should let them lie if they are unessential.

    Devon, Jesus also experienced jealousy and envy at the hands of religious leaders as did Stephen. I hope you’re encouraged until you get further open doors.

    Andrew, you said, “I do believe something powerful happens when a true prophet is honored and received.” Amen. It’s no longer time to talk about our intentions to receive genuine ministers; it’s time to do it.

    AJH, you rightly said, “Those called to be apostles are the subjects of special ‘humiliation’ with God… He takes them through the ‘Lamentations 3:1-33’ process…” And amen to all you’ve shared about receiving a true prophet. The Lord, just five days ago but yesterday through another minister, began to speak to me that there is a prophet in my life (not geographically close to me, however) who I am to ‘receive’ and reminded me from this passage that I will definitely receive the prophet’s reward (or reward for receiving the prophet). As you said, true leadership is lifting others up and putting them ahead of yourself. This is what Jesus did, and “no other foundation (example) can a man lay than that already laid which is Jesus Christ” (1Cor. 3:11). Amen.

    Roger, Jesus said to give honor to whom honor is due and to know those who labor among us. Paul and the apostles, in their letters, give honor to many different ministers and praise them, telling the churches to hold them in honor and high honor. God’s Word also says that those who align their character with God’s character will find “favor and high esteem in the sight of [both] God and man” (Pro. 3:3-4). God is exalted enough to impart some of His glory to people; He is the One who made it to be that little children, especially boys, see their fathers as ‘God’, because God is too high for humility to make Him any less. If God gives honor, then we should give honor too. You’ve been adept at creating complication where there is simplicity; your brand of humility is not from God and has no place among God’s People.

    To end this portion, I want to return to what Andrew and Andrew J said about receiving a prophet and therefore the prophet’s reward. How do we receive a prophet or apostle or other unless we know them? How do we know them if we don’t know them after the spirit? To know after the spirit, in summary, is to know who a person is from the inside out; it can be achieved only by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The disciples all knew Jesus was God… until He asked, “Who do men say I am?” Then suddenly, Peter received the knowledge by revelation. This means he truly knew now; this truth was whole to him and not just in part. In the same way, we cannot know many true ministers except by revelation. By nature, we are looking for something that isn’t what God is presenting to us. His ministers are around us; but we note or notice them by revelation (presently proceeding), not by what we learned yesterday or two days ago or from the Bible about how ministers are supposed to appear. Just as Jezebel opposes the prophets, the religious spirit opposes apostles. It is also necessary to learn to discern deceitful workers and those who pretend to follow Christ (like Judas Iscariot began to do) but who are against Him and His true ministers.

  76. Andrew Nov 15th 2013

    I am highly doubtful that true ministers are about to be “received” in this generation, my friend.

    More likely they are about to give up and go away.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  77. ValleyAnt Nov 15th 2013

    Marty, you said right that to honor one (whether for miracles or for waiting tables), we honor Christ. Regarding revival, the Spirit of revival is within people and is awaiting appointed times. However, the enemy is at special war against such people, so they can use your prayers. You also said, “I know of no one today with the apostolic anointing of Art Katz. He truly was ‘the thing in itself’.” There are many of them who are “the thing in [themselves]”. As the article says, Jesus is jealous over the term ‘apostle’ and related terms. We may have our favorites and preferences among leaders, but He has many apostles and is no respecter of persons. What we have seen in Art Katz will be eclipsed by many, not because God compares ministers as we do, but because God has willed it from the beginning.

    Richard, you said, “Most of the church praying for revival is interested in a revival where the occult is tolerated and accepted, winked at and justified and hidden from the children of the light. Good luck getting a real apostle to put up with that.” A true apostle will not tolerate anything like that for a half second as Paul said: “[Confusion and trouble entered in] because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you” (Gal. 2:4-5).

    I want to return for a while to the subject of honor and honoring ministers. The Bible tells us to honor our parents in the Lord (because of the Lord or for the sake of obedience toward God, not the leaders necessarily); in the same way, God loves when we honor each other as the Bible often tells us to do—telling us to outdo each other in diligence and honor and that we should hold ministers who do well in double or high honor. The Lord has recently, along with receiving a certain prophet, been talking to me about honoring this prophet. He took me to the story of Jabez. The first thing and only thing we are told about Jabez’s character is that he “was more honorable than his brethren”. Because he was honorable (he honored others, he was selfless and unselfish), when he prayed, “Oh that You would bless me indeed”, God heard and answered his prayer. (1Chron. 4:9-10.) In his book ‘The Heart God Hears’, Wes Daughenbaugh writes that if your heart doesn’t condemn you in regard to your lifestyle and decisions (if your heart and motives are pure toward God and others), then you can be assured that God hears your prayers. This is true; God can answer the prayers of those who honor others, because honoring others (when done in sincerity) is the opposite of honoring, magnifying, or promoting self. The flesh never honors others; it honors self. But the Lord honors others though He Himself alone is worthy of honor. So, He makes clear who really is worthy of honor in a perplexing but marvelous entreaty: “Who is greater—he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves” (Lk. 22:27). I haven’t yet found anything the Lord said that is more kingly and full of wisdom. You can’t beat that one with a stick.

    Finally, it’s important to come to know by the Lord’s discernment those who labor among us. Know for one if Art Katz ever called himself an apostle. Get to know the basic outward signs of an apostle (signs and wonders, and this applies for ALL apostles not just some though the amount of signs will vary) and the basic inward signs of an apostle (patience (or meekness, this one is hard to perceive), peace, Love). There are outward and inward basic signs of every ministry office, but in an ironic way, these signs of are more apparent in apostles though simultaneously more hidden. Someone began by saying that an apostle, in the final outcome, will be known by his or her Love. Without a doubt, this is true. Most Christians don’t know their purpose, their beginning. To understand any ministry (and here, the apostle), we must know what an apostle’s beginnings are meaning their heart, motivation, desires toward God and toward people, etc. An apostle’s (and every Christian’s) identity (whether or not the person is an apostle or this or that) is contained in his or her beginning, calling, PURPOSE, spiritual DNA. We need to ask God for wisdom, because God hides His ministers often times; and certainly, He hides His apostles (and reveals them to some He chooses to or some who have eyes to see) until the time of their manifestation.

  78. How do we receive a prophet or apostle or other unless we know them? How do we know them if we don’t know them after the spirit? To know after the spirit, in summary, is to know who a person is from the inside out; it can be achieved only by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

    That’s a good word ValleyAnt… :-)

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

  79. ValleyAnt Nov 15th 2013

    Andrew, you said, “I am highly doubtful that true ministers are about to be ‘received’ in this generation, my friend. More likely they are about to give up and go away.” The Bible, in very many ways, explains the mystery surrounding whether or not Jesus will be received in His ministers and the Church. One of these places I quoted above; it says that, and this is a very basic paraphrase, God is a likable Person and that because this is so, people are naturally drawn toward Him. (I mean, we know kids can grow and turn against their parents; but whoever heard of a baby turning against mom or dad while tiny and grateful and loved. So, God is likable; but as we grow (as we side more and more with flesh), we can start seeing God differently.) God then is able to make people likable like Him; these people are attractive to both God AND other people. Here it is:

    “Let not mercy and truth forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. And so find favor and high esteem in the sight of God and man” (Pro. 3:3-4). We, as humans, naturally are more inclined towards truth or mercy but not both simultaneously. We tell lots of truth so people don’t like us, but we are dependable (durable); or we are very sympathetic so people like us, but we aren’t very dependable (durable). In Christ, God’s Grace and truth (mercy and truth) are seen in perfection which is what we all need. People didn’t flock to Jesus because of just Grace or just truth, but because of Grace and truth together, therefore confirming the word in Pro. 3 that the binding of mercy and truth together around the neck and the inscription of them in the heart (the wellspring or beginning of life and one’s motivations) brings favor AND high esteem not just from God but ALSO from man. (On the other hand, there will be those who will oppose this as with Jesus. In back to back verses, Acts 5 says what seems very curious: “And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly. And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.” People highly esteemed the apostles… but they wouldn’t join them… but many were joining even as some weren’t joining. It’s all the above; it happens at the same time: esteem and jealousy, favor and acceptance.

    I said all that to get to this: there are different spheres of influence that ministers are given, not just apostles. A pastor here and go over there and take charge unless given permission; a teacher to people in one city can’t go across three states and attempt to be a teacher there. They can do it, but their authority or Grace will evaporate the further they move from their sphere. What happens is that sometimes ministers are rejected or not received because they haven’t yet been prepared by the Lord or because they are outside their sphere of authority or the limits of their Grace. An older minister may preach to youth for years with no change. He may think, “Well, they can’t be reached” when the fact may be that the Lord called him to something else (or maybe to the youth for a time and then to something else but he didn’t notice when the cloud lifted and moved on, so to speak, and he stayed). Then another minister comes, and the youth flock to and listen to him (which many times causes the other minister to be jealous or resentful, etc.). John the Baptist gives an excellent example of what all ministers are to do when they leave their sphere of authority or outside the boundaries of their Grace; in an often quoted passage, when his disciples ‘warned’ him that Jesus was becoming more famous than him, John, being a prophet who understood things, said, “He must become greater (increase), and I must become less (decrease)” (Jn. 3:30). In some special forces, like say Navy SEALs, there is no one permanent leader; what they do is that the situation (sphere) determines who will lead: if the situation requires a bridge be blown up, then the explosives specialist takes the lead for that time; if it requires that someone be shot from a great distance, then the sniper takes the lead for that time; etc. God has made the Church and leadership to function just like that (though we’ve forgotten long ago and think “I can do all things through Christ”; but this is not true as there are spheres, measures, limits, and varieties): in the place where one is greater, the others must become less or else they will be out of sync, and the Lord operates best in unity.

    Many ministers have tried their hands at America and have given up, because they didn’t have Grace or authority for this region (or they went before they were sent and so didn’t have enough Grace or authority); but as Wade Hurt said, there is yet hope in America. Often what is going on when there is no success in a given field or place or people is that there have not yet been sent to them those who are specifically given the Grace to reach them. Those with the Grace to reach America will topple it like David toppled Goliath (the right person for a specific task); success in ministry, however, is often about Grace and authority and spheres, not zeal or desire or spiritual gifts or even godliness, and most ministers don’t yet know this. When we don’t have the Grace to reach a certain people or place, we should pray for God to send those whom He has equipped specifically for the task. Just like we can’t marry everyone, in the same way, we can’t reach everyone. We all have limits and spheres and measures and fields we are sent to; but no one is sent to everyone or to everywhere. Even Jesus was sent only to the Jews (His measure or limit); this means that others were totally free to reject Him (and it was okay) but that consequences would follow for Jews who rejected Him. In the same way, Paul was sent to the Gentiles and said to the Corinthians, “Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord” (1Cor. 9:2). To cover all ministry, this means, “I am indeed a minister of God, but not everyone sees, treats, or acknowledges me (listens to me) as that. However, you all know for sure that I am a minister, because I was specifically sent to you with all the signs that confirm my ministry.” A minister can have mercy and truth as his heart and motivation and still be continually rejected when he is not in his field as Paul was: it was after specifically Paul left Jerusalem (the other apostles stayed) that it says the Church there then had peace; he was a debater and intellectual (unlike the common Jews but very much like the Gentiles) and wasn’t sent to the Jews but to the Gentiles (read Acts 9:20-31; it’s remarkable, surprising, but also insightful how Paul’s presence draws up drama but peace follows when he leaves). So, each person should know this, be at peace with their limitations, and pray for people to be sent into the fields that they cannot or have not been able to reach: “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest” (Mt. 9:37-38).

  80. Andrew Nov 15th 2013

    Nice try.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  81. Lightning Storm – well observed :-)

    In the past others have also commented on this lack – yet as Tyrone said earlier: “..many can’t hear because their ears are closed.”

    The good news is that there are ones, called and raised up by God, through whom He is working this way.

    “Faith like Potatoes” is one such account.

  82. Bruchko is another..

  83. Lightning Storm Nov 15th 2013

    Thanks Roger. I will check those 2 examples out.

  84. Barry Schmidt Nov 15th 2013

    Just reading through the discussion-I may be wrong on this but I don’t know if what we need is more or better apostles in the nations as much as we need God to show up and be Himself among us.
    Where is Jesus? I know He is keeping His promises to be with us even to the end of the age but where is his fire in his church?
    Where is His zeal in His church?
    Where is His holy sacrificial love in His Church?
    There’s a whole lot if talk going on in the church ABOUT these things but where is Jesus?

    Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down, That the mountains might quake at Your presence- As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil- To make Your name known to Your adversaries, That the nations may tremble at Your presence! (Isaiah 64:1, 2 NASB)
    Look down from heaven and see from Your holy and glorious habitation; Where are Your zeal and Your mighty deeds? The stirrings of Your heart and Your compassion are restrained toward me. Why, O Lord, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage. We have become like those over whom You have never ruled, Like those who were not called by Your name. (Isaiah 63:15, 17, 19 NASB)

    For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet, Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her salvation like a torch that is burning. On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the Lord, take no rest for yourselves; And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. (Isaiah 62:1, 6, 7 NASB)

  85. ValleyAnt – It seems that we are saying the same thing, God will use those whom He has called, raised up, gifted and prepared – as He chooses, in His timing, for His purposes.

    I read your correction of me. I am aware that Almighty God is still working on, and in me, and I welcome His cleansing preparation, trials and testing.

    Know that I love you, with His Love – the love which is Christ Jesus our risen Lord. His Will be done.

    Abiding in Him,
    Roger

  86. Barry – I understand what you are saying – I think..?

    The two examples I quoted, just above your last, are true life accounts of Lord Jesus working among people, taking someone who is His child, and using him amongst ordinary people, Zulus and native Indians, to share His love, and His reality, His salvation.

    The people He uses get ‘down and dirty’, work with, live with, have a personal relationship both with Lord Jesus, and with those that He has placed them amongst.

    I suggest these are two of many examples or ordinary people ‘getting on’ with the work that God has chosen them to do. No big headlines, no banner saying ‘look at me’ – they are humble ones who give all glory to God, give all glory to the only One who deserves it.

    I also suggest that there are individuals in many countries (perhaps every country.?) who quietly go about the business of serving God, demonstrating Lord Jesus, in this way. Being used by Him, through whom He will share little miracles each day in their lives, and in their neighbourhood.

    In His love,
    Roger

  87. Andrew it sounds like your getting very discouraged?

    I am highly doubtful that true ministers are about to be “received” in this generation, my friend.

    More likely they are about to give up and go away.

    Men with true gifts are still received even if only by a remnant. The problem seems to be that the wolves have SO polluted the ministry with demonic or fleshly “signs and wonders” that the few real ministers have the unjust burden of being held guilty till proven innocent. God has always given his own the authentication needed when needed.

    Brother Art is a good example of this. He functioned in a virtual sea of false prophets and was viciously attacked by most of them. But the majority of the “non professionals” to whom he was sent generally accepted his message and loved him, warts and all.

  88. watchful Nov 15th 2013

    Bess you, Roger. I agree with the simplicity that you are speaking of. As each one finds the Lord Jesus Christ to be all-sufficient in Himself without the need of any other trappings, approvals, affirmations or help of man, I think this is how we are being prepared to be chosen living stones placed in the Father’s house, hewn by His Spirit and not by hands of flesh. Not an easy road, our faith and trust in Him is being tested and tried, and we are called to endure to the end. “Though none come with me, still I will follow” is the fixation on our hearts as we become more and more single-minded, eyes and affections only on things above and hearts less and less divided by earthly considerations and what others are doing or not doing. The result is more and more testimonies of God’s faithfulness, deliverances, revelations, etc.

    And it seems that not everyone will keep following, sadly…the past while, I seem to see more stopping at Zoar, or going back to Egypt altogether. Pharaoah pursues God’s people into the wilderness and one lesson of the Red Sea is burning bridges behind us (accepting the nails that keep our flesh on the cross). Still I don’t judge, because I know how it is not easy and some are asked to pay a higher price than others, so truly how can I judge, but continue to love and pray for strength to those who need it.

    Lord bless and keep you brother.

  89. Averyl Nov 15th 2013

    Roger, Marty, & Watchful, – AMEN!

  90. Amen Watchful – and thankyou

  91. When we know who we are in the Lord we minister before the Lord… :-)

    The Lord has told me in the past that I am not to focus on specific people “coming to me”…

    This means that I might have desires for specific people to “recognise” me or to “recognise” their place in my life…

    But He just wants me to minister before them – people – all people – to Him… :-)

    At the end of the day He is the One who will draw to me all that He is wanting to draw so that I can be the leader which He wants me to be…

    So that I can fulfil my call before Him…

    I am not limited by people… :-)

    Leaders need followers…

    There is nothing arrogant about that – it is a reality…

    Jesus needed disciples…

    I dislike it when I read people saying, “God does not need us”…

    He has actually limited Himself so that He does need us…

    The world will not believe until we the Church show them the unity which Christ died for – He needs us…

    And we kid ourselves if we think that He doesn’t…

    But the joy is that if God has called me to be a leader that He will establish me in this calling in His time…

    This is not my responsibility – to make people “recognise” me…

    It is my responsibility to humble myself and let Him “kill” me… :-)

    I speak and when what I share “blesses” others it is a joy to me…

    I might have specific people on my heart who I particularly want to see blessed and who I particularly want to see taking their place with me in the call which God has on my life but this is not my choice – this is their choice…

    There’s freedom in that – real freedom – do you see that – so free – such a “relief”… :-)

    We – as those who God has called to lead – in whatever sphere that is – are so free – how do we know who the ones are who we’ve been called to lead? – ultimately they’re the ones who follow – who really follow from their hearts – not the ones who say they’re following but aren’t really – or even the ones who contribute on our blogs ( :-) ) but the ones who are following in their hearts – and we know this – we sense this – in our hearts – there’s a sister in the USA who is blessing me with her prayers and her support – I feel it in the spirit – she hasn’t “told me” or been “all over me” with her support but I sense it in the spirit and I am blessed…

    It is what ValleyAnt shared above about a knowledge in the spirit that something is so – we get such encouragement from this – not the number of comments we receive on our blogs – or the number of emails we receive – or any other form of “recognition” which we could think of – but it is the encouragement given by the Lord that we’re “doing our job” and that He is pleased…

    Just like Noah – A Preacher of Righteousness – didn’t base his success on numbers – but in the fact that he fulfilled the Lord’s will in his generation and condemned the world – wow, that’s the praise which the Lord gave him – that he condemned the world – wow… :-)

    We each have our task to perform and can perform it in joy once we know we do it before the Lord – not an audience – we can lead and even if our leading is not received even in our lifetime – we know that we have led – as the Lord has wanted us to and can be blessed by this joy before Him…

    So many have been a greater blessing after they departed and went to be with the Lord than when they were still alive…

    Yes, the Lord wants His people to recognise leaders – to give honour – but hey – if this doesn’t happen then we just “keep going”…

    Keep loving, keep speaking – keep being obedient to the Lord… 😀

  92. Darren Sargent Nov 16th 2013

    Art Katz, to my knowledge, never called himself an Apostle and would more as like rebuke publicly anyone who would honour him in such a fashion – he would not let such a ‘compliment’ stand in public. I believe he let the function speak for the label of the office. In his last interview he said that Elders were only identifiable when moving in that particular authority and anointing; other than that they were brother amongst brothers.

    The Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. We need these men, for they all bear the same distinctive as the Lord Himself who is the Great Apostle and the True Prophet; their nature deriving from His. We are built to fit next to one another without cement: cut stone against cut stone. We are not little solipsistic bubbles of selfdom of isolated and ‘transcendent’ christianity. We need each other: our longing for one another, an echo of that longing for the day when He will come when we are adopted as Sons, and if there is no longing then something is rotten. We can only be what we will be WITH each other; the Church never rising to Her calling without the Jew; and the Jew never coming to the fullness without us. Our love and longing for those who are Apostolic and Prophetic is simply our extension of our love for the Lord, our travailing, our tarrying, our desperation in the Garden of Gethsemene. We must walk through the Valley of Death to teach us what to cherish and to love, to cleave and to cling.

    Many Apostles are named as were many of the Prophets, but some were simply, ‘Man of God': they appeared and then sank back into obscurity. We need the Apostle and we need the Prophets; there are few and far between. However, we do have a glut of Pastors. What does that tell you?

  93. Lightning Storm Nov 16th 2013

    QUOTE FROM AJHORTON

    “He has actually limited Himself so that He does need us”
    UNQUOTE

    What?!?

    Am I the only one who sees a very BIG problem with this statement??

    Any doctrine/teaching that REDUCES the Almighty Jehovah in any way from Who He says He is, is a FALSE TEACHING.

    Any doctrine/teaching that makes MANKIND greater than who God says we are, is a FALSE TEACHING.

    The only time that Jesus Christ “limited” Himself was when He walked this earth as a man.
    While a man, Jesus had none of His own Power or Authority to use as a man..

    AFTER Jesus Christ ASCENDED to His Father, is when Jesus took up His OWN POWER AND AUTHORITY AS GOD, THE SON, which He possessed PRIOR to laying it down and humbling Himself to become a human baby.

    Jehovah God is
    NOT LIMITED IN ANY WAY, WHATSOEVER.

  94. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    He needs a Bride!

    Darren Sargent, Amen!

    Wow, getting some good postings now, Hallelujah!

  95. Andrew Nov 16th 2013

    If there is going to be a continual “simmering under-war” between LightningStorm and AJ Horton on here, then one or both will end up suspended.

    I ask that you both refrain from speaking about, or to, each other.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  96. Very insightful teaching by Lee Grady.

    I’m sure there are compassionate apostles out there, but I’m afraid that it’s the people they try to reach that are the problem. Our western society is filled with so much pleasure-seeking and entertainment, it’s hard to find the hungry people. We don’t live at all like they did in the early church. Sin abounded then as much as today, but people had shorter lives, walking everywhere to reach places, no electricity, and everyone had to depend on each other to survive. Families all had to live together and pitch in if they wanted to survive.

    We live in a selfish world. In India, families take care of elderly parents and in the West, many are discarded and sent to homes, or have retired wealthy and travel and live abundantly, spending all their time on cruises, while the adult children struggle. We are living in one of the most selfish times the world has ever seen. When we read about certain dog-owners pampering their pets and feeding them better than the average human, are we ready to hear the gospel? If foster children needed a home and were allergic to cats and dogs, they would be sent to an orphanage because every family in the West seems to own a cat or dog. Everyone must keep up with their neighbors. People are obsessed with things that are so temporal and don’t realize they keep souls away at arms’ length.

    If we are so consumed with self, how can we be apostles? The Western lifestyle is quenching the Spirit. It demands energy, obsessive communication with twittering and facebooking , financial independence, success, education, youthful appearance, well-maintained physiques, materialism, entertainment, travel and what’s left of the day, is time for bed. Few take care of others. The West hires people to take care of other people. The west is experiencing a nursing shortage. Few young people want to work in humanitarian jobs, but all want to work as anchors, or stock brokers. Everyone wants to be a celebrity. Most high-powered couples (and many in the church) are preoccupied with programs and raising money for their churches. When do these have time to talk to strangers? We won’t go where strangers are because we’ve lost the art of hospitality and prefer to walk across the street from the homeless man. Apostles in today’s churches follow the trends, but so do the saints, and so do unbelievers. Trends and activity keep everyone from seeking God. Our minds are being bombasted with information every moment, every second and we are being acclimatized to having music, noise, talk, on radio, i-phones, i-pads, and if we ever had a moment of quiet, I believe it might cause psychological stress. People are being fed noise in their ears every waking moment. How can anyone contemplate the things of God?

    Towns in the Book of Acts were such that people congregated outside (tropical climate) in the market and near temples to pray. Today, millions pass each other in the streets and we don’t speak to each other, but rather get cursed at if we don’t drive fast enough. No one seems to have pity, compassion, self-control; women are now independent feminists working outside the home, becoming ferocious competitors and exhausted and have little compassion outside the confines of their home. The West is sucking the physical, emotional and spiritual energy right out of everyone, where that leaves little for individuals to seek God and pray and meditate on the Word. We are stressed on all sides. Many people are coping with medications to relieve stress. Everyone is told they need to exercise, keep a balanced life, work, raise families, travel, occupy with activities, competitions, etc. How can an apostle of the Lord squeeze into these people’s lives for them to listen to what he has to say?

    If they won’t listen, maybe it’s time for western apostles to shake the dust off their feet and go into a place that would welcome the gospel message. But, it might not be a comfortable lifestyle and might require a lot of sacrifice. No one should call themself ‘apostle’ until they leave the ways of Babylon.

  97. Hi Andrew,

    If you feel the following sharing is inappropriate please feel free to remove it… :-)

    http://ahouseofprayerforthenations.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/leadership-part-2/

    Love you,

    Andrew

  98. Yve Clark Nov 16th 2013

    A true apostle or anyone in christian leadership is a servant. In fact a servant of servants… perhaps I should go as far as to say, “a slave of slaves!”
    – Jesus made. it qiute clear that we were to serve and not to lord it over each other.
    He became the suffering servant and showed that He served the apostles when he washed their feet.
    That is humility indeed!

  99. Andrew Nov 16th 2013

    Marie – sadly I agree so much with what you shared

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  100. Quote How can an apostle of the Lord squeeze into these people’s lives for them to listen to what he has to say? quote………………….

    A true Apostle while have the Word of God and the signs following his ministry. Those who are the Elect will hear God’s voice and will know who is of the Lord and who is not.

    It was no different in the New Testament times. Many followed Jesus and then turned away.

    John 6:

    65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

    68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

    If they choose to turn away when they had the Son of God in their very midst, why should we think it strange that many in the West would turn away because of the deceitfulness of riches that consume our lands?

    The Bible gives us the answers to what is going on and we just have to acknowledge it:

    Romans 11:3-5
    3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    God has a people, who are the remnant the only thing we can do as believers is to make our election and calling sure. There is a price to pay to follow Jesus and its to those who hear His voice and obey it.

    Romans 11:5
    Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    2 Peter 1:7-11

    7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

    10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Praise His Holy Name,
    GaryB

  101. watchful Nov 16th 2013

    Marie, this is why the Lord will remove distractions and bondages…..from those who belong to Him – disciplining us as sons. The men who followed David (type of Christ) in the wilderness had nothing left to lose. Not everyone belongs to Him. Those who don’t, society at large, and Christians by name only, are sinking deeper and deeper in the mire. Jesus made mention of servants who only gave eye-service to their masters.

    For a whole generation and longer we had a society which gave eye-service to God, on the surface better than nothing, but the true condition of things is growing to the full like weeds and its true (unpalatable) fruit is appearing. That’s how I see it, at least.

    Lightning Storm, I am troubled by that whole post and especially the one statement you brought to our attention, as though Jesus did not find the Father all-sufficient………..but that is where a mind at enmity with God leads a person, and worse. Far too much thinking and not enough washing of the water of the word to renew the mind. But the extra oil has to be bought, and by the price that God lays down. We can try to persuade, God is ever faithful, and the truth must be spoken, but if they haven’t bought the extra oil for their lamps they are never able to perceive the truth. If they are meeting their needs they are not buying oil.

    The body of Christ is not divided by a leader-follower division. That is the way of the harlot Jezebel church system. (clergy-laity, with or without a collar) The body of Christ is not about leading and following, that is besides the point……….if it is given to anyone to be an overseer or elder, it’s for the sake of the flock, not to satisfy the needs of the overseer. I’m sorry, but that’s just yucky. It is flesh that needs followers. If anyone needs to lead then it’s a sure sign they are not ready to lead. Wolves are the ones who need to lead, that is the whole point of wolves in sheep’s clothing, they are just there to eat the sheep, ie, satisfy their own needs.

  102. ValleyAnt Nov 16th 2013

    No, Roger, we aren’t saying the same thing, and you know it. Wolves use wool to fool sheep, but wolves aren’t known by their wool but by their fruits. You may fool others who are innocent as doves, but I add the admonition to also be wise as serpents; you aren’t pulling any wool over my eyes.

    There’s so much good that’s been shared here and so much blessing. I wish this fellowship was face to face rather than online. I’ll plan to return later today.

    Darren Sargent, amen to all you’ve said. We need each other, and our hunger for the apostolic and prophetic is really our longing for the Lord. Amen.

    LS, God does limit Himself a great deal and has made Himself to ‘need’ others. Don’t be put off by the word ‘need’. God needs no one, but just like Jesus put Himself under God’s Mosaic Law as well as God’s Law specific to Him (which was to walk earth as 100% human without any of His God abilities), still being above both Laws, God has also put Himself under many laws that He Himself created. Consider that God rarely negates laws of physics, attraction mathematics, etc., even when His inactions allow harm and people to suffer or die. One of God’s Laws, established like all His Laws before the foundation of the world, is that He limit Himself to working on earth through mankind (which Law of free will landed us all in this mess from the Fall). In Christianity, humility is theory; if you don’t agree with something, ask for more explanation rather than disagreeing without more light.

    Marie, what you shared is full of wisdom. If I was to comment on it, it would take a whole book (and that’s not exaggeration). You’ve summarized a great many things in a concise way. People at full on ‘chinese food’ that only satisfies for a short while; they return to the restaurant continually, because they love ‘Chinese food’. They can’t receive the Lord because they are full of self. But “blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”

    Yve Clark, you said it: all leaders are servants. God, in His wisdom, made this truth one that can’t truly be disputed. He Himself is a Leader who served mankind from the Beginning. But in case we should miss it, He gave us an example that only the stiff-necked can contradict: parents are leaders over their children but are servants. Leading doesn’t make a servant, a common person, great; serving makes a leader great or above average/common, above his peers.

    Watchful, it’s the wolves that want to lead and to be honored and not honor others. Most couples don’t have children to have someone to lead but someone to love. True leaders know that leadership begins in the family with wife and children. That’s more than enough responsibility; those who seek to have positions of leadership outside their family must lead their families well first. If they cannot do that, God will never approve them even if He attends their ministry with healings and miracles 24/7. Leadership is not about leading; it’s about responsibility. Having said that, the clearer truth is that many want to be followed; they don’t want to lead.

  103. ValleyAnt Nov 16th 2013

    Andrew Strom, you said that you’re doubtful that true leaders will be received in this generation. But God owns all generations, and sin and wickedness (darkness) aren’t greater than Light. Marty said rightly, “Men with true gifts are still received even if only by a remnant. The problem seems to be that the wolves have SO polluted the ministry… that the few real ministers have the unjust burden of being held guilty till proven innocent.”

    I listened parts 1 and 2 of Art Katz’s message from Paul’s link (first comment above): http://artkatzministries.org/audio-messages/k-482-true-sending-for-true-ministry-1-of-2/. I got a lot from what he said and took some notes. The summary of what Katz says and what apostolic ministry about (really, all ministry) is that it’s about sending or being sent. All ministry, in the end, revolves around sending. Paul writes in Rom. 10: “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!’” As it is written” means it works according to ‘as it is written’ and outside of that ‘as it is written’, it cannot truly work (which is why Jesus’ “it is written” had weight with satan; he knows that you cannot subtract or add to “as it is written” and that “as it is written” is the foundation for “as it is done”). I say all this to get back to the need for ministers to be sent—to say that when ministers are not specifically sent, they may indeed have successes… but they will not succeed (God’s Word accomplishes what it is SENT for; when it goes before it is sent, it will not accomplish).

    Paul quotes a passage about the “the feet of those”. “Those” are ‘those who are sent’, not ‘those who just go’. When the Lord appeared to Isaiah, He said in his hearing, “Whom shall I SEND, and who will GO for us?” Because Jesus healed on the Sabbath, which the wolves who ate from the sheep couldn’t do, these wolves (religious hypocrites, wolves pretending to be sheep) accused Jesus of working on the Sabbath. Jesus’ reply was CLASSIC: “My Father has been working until now, and I too am working” (Jn. 5). Those with a laborer’s mentality appreciate that more than others. He was saying that He worked in sync with the Father. I.e. God is always sending and healing and restoring and doing miracles, etc.; but we rarely see this fact except through those who are SENT: they said, “Jesus, why do You heal on the Sabbath and break, therefore, the Law of Moses?” Jesus replied, “My Father is at work every single day, and therefore, I work everyday too.” Anyone can preach, but a preacher who is SENT is one who has ‘beautiful feet’, because his Gospel is alive (has effect); coming in the fullness of time (God’s sending), his Gospel brings glad tidings not just by speech but in experience—by the presence of God in healings, miracles, supernatural provisions, etc.

    The Bible, from OT to NT, is all about sending as to how God works and accomplishes things. Adam and Eve were sent (it helps to study this aspect to see the importance that God places on being sent); Abraham was sent; Moses was sent; Jesus was sent; the Holy Spirit was sent. Since the topic is so extremely vast, I want to focus on tiny portions of this and look at several things: 1.) biblical examples of those who failed before they were sent but then succeeded after they were sent; 2.) why it’s good that one must be sent in order to fulfill (accomplish); and 3.) questions that are answered by those who are sent.

  104. ValleyAnt Nov 16th 2013

    Some make apostles special (or/and other leaders special), because their hearts aren’t right or they have no understanding. All believers are supposed to be apostolic or sent. In fact, believers who aren’t apostolic have more questions than answers, more problems than solutions, more frustrations than peace. I want to focus on this issue of sending (which in the Bible is a very vast topic) by addressing these three things: 1.) biblical examples of those who failed before they were sent but then succeeded after they were sent; 2.) why it’s good that one must be sent in order to fulfill (accomplish); and 3.) questions that are answered by those who are sent.

    1.) Moses is the best example of one who was called to a task, failed when he attempted the task, then succeeded when he was SENT (in the fullness of God’s timing) as God’s Word fulfills what it is sent for. His calling to apostleship did more to cause harm than good when implemented before the time. When implemented at the right time (when SENT), he faced down principalities over and over in a territory that wasn’t even his (Egypt), making the likelihood of his success even dimmer (as we see, the Egyptian sorcerers were able to perform some pretty mighty signs; they were in their territory and the jurisdiction of satan where they had more power); being SENT, Moses was then able to push back the Pharaoh himself without so much as even an attack from Pharaoh and his mighty armies (because the princes and powers in the area were bound in order that God’s will be promoted: “when a stronger comes, he binds… and looses:”); this is the effect when something is sent or happens ‘in the fullness of time’. Other examples of God’s will falling flat before it was time but then succeeding at the proper time are King Saul (desired by the people but not sent by the Lord) and David (sent by the Lord in the fullness of time) and Ishmael born before Isaac.

    2.) It is actually a very good thing that we achieve very little when we aren’t sent. There are several reasons for this. One major one is that because we are small-minded (which is what happens when you fall from a high place of sinlessness to such a low estate), accomplishment automatically makes us proud and makes us think we are better than we are or better than others. As Art Katz shared in the article from the link in Paul’s comment and mine above, failure is actually good for God’s purposes. Failure reminds us of our real abilities and creates a brokenness that we need to be useful to God. Moses failed and learned from it so that when he was sent, he was ready. Often times, people who stop when they fail over and over show that they are more self-focused; those who are focused on God getting glory and accomplishing things have a greater capacity to keep pressing forward in spite of failures, because they have a way of understanding this very important thing: men fail, but God doesn’t fail; so if we fail doing God’s will, God’s will is still there to be done. Especially in the West and among men, people play it safe (‘play it close to the vest’) rather than risk failure. This may begin in fear but then leads to pride; and pride never leads to progress but rather halts it. Only brave people pursue things till they succeed and don’t stop till they accomplish. Proud people aren’t brave (though many are convinced they are); they are afraid and so do little for others though they may do much for themselves. Pride doesn’t wait; but as Katz said in his message on being sent, God’s works proceed from His rest. And the greater the work, the greater must be the rest. What rest is there today in a performance-based Christianity? Therefore, there are few healings, miracles, and supernatural provisions. Being sent requires waiting, but most won’t wait.

    3.) Finally, many questions are answered in the environment of ‘sentness’. Many people ask why people aren’t healed today. Joni Eareckson Tada is one such case where people ask why she isn’t healed. Like the reasons for unanswered prayers are vast, so are the reasons for lack of healing and miracles. But regarding the latter, the sum reason so many aren’t healed and so much good is held up is because there is so little sending. God is always sending (“Who shall I SEND”), but most aren’t going/waiting (“Who will GO for Us”). In Acts 9, right after Paul was sent away and the churches of the region then had rest (because Paul wasn’t sent to that region), the story immediately then follows Peter who WAS sent to that region. Not only do we see Peter being successful, but we see him being SENT and success coming with that. In Acts 9:29-43, we see Paul being too strong (his Grace too severe) for that region and he therefore coming under attack; sent away, the region returned to rest, then Peter, a simple Jew, continued his ministry, being accepted by simple Jews and having effect in ministry. Let’s read the part about Peter being sent (literally) to Lydda and Joppa: when Peter came to Lydda, he ‘found’ Aeneas who’d been bedridden for eight years (i.e. he came into contact with a work of satan). Peter, having been sent, says to Aeneas not, “Let me pray for you” or “Be healed in Jesus’ Name” but “Aeneas, JESUS THE CHRIST heals you. Arise and make your bed.” And it was immediately so, and all who lived in Lydda turned to God (please not the ease of ministry in all this). Then Tabitha, a good Christian woman, died in Joppa, and when the Christians there heard there was ‘a sent one’ (not necessarily an apostle; this is very important to note) in Lydda, they sent for him. When Peter got to Joppa, they were all trying to convince him that Tabitha was worth raising from the dead, but he put them all out, knelt and sought the Lord’s strategy (as he already knew that Tabitha would rise). He then turned to Tabitha with the Lord’s strategy which was to simply say, “Tabitha, arise.” And it was so, and many turned to the Lord. This is what ministry looks like when a person is sent.

    So, what then about being sent? Am I saying that many issues and problems will lie unresolved until someone is called for or comes into the region who is ‘a sent one’? Absolutely. The Bible is offensive to those who don’t want to believe this, because pretty much in every page, we see that this is true. None of the Christians in Joppa at that time knew how to be ‘sent’ (the apostles were constantly trying to teach people how to be ‘sent’), so they called for ‘a sent one’. When the demons spoke to the seven sons of Sceva, they acknowledged two sent ones—Jesus and Paul—and disqualified seven who were not sent. Some may say, “Well, of course they knew Jesus…” Yes, but what the Bible is showing us there is that it is not Jesus in the flesh that they acknowledged but also Paul; i.e. it wasn’t just Jesus they were acknowledging but those who are sent (Paul in that region where it happened). The need and importance of being sent is both overt and hidden in the Bible, and because of this importance, God waited four hundred years while Israel suffered in slavery before sending Moses to Israel and then waited another four hundred years so that Paul could write, “We were in bondage… under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God SENT forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons” (Gal. 4:3-5). Lots of sitting around waiting when people aren’t sent or aren’t going (waiting) to be sent. But God has it all figured out already, and it only works how He has made it to work before the foundation of the world. America will have sent ones sent to her, and then all the Goliaths that litter the landscape and that claimed, “It can’t be done” will acknowledge these sent ones and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. With man, pretty much everything is impossible; but when God sends, then we see that the advantage is all on God’s side and that it’s actually ‘an unfair fight’ from satan’s perspective. However, because God does His stuff through us, we often find it hard to see where all the authority (RIGHT) and power (MIGHT) lie.

  105. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    Valley Ant, – your accusation of Roger pulling the wool over our eyes is unkind & uncalled for. For all we know, he may be an apostle!

    To those who believe they are called to lead & are calling for followers, remember what Jesus said in John 10:5: -“A stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers.”
    The flock has been scattered by “hirelings”, paid leaders, who are not there for the sheep when they get into trouble, because they don’t really care about the flock but about themselves.
    We must follow the good shepherd who is willing to lay down his life for us, while the hirelings accuse us of being rebellious when we say, “The Lord is my Shepherd”.

    The pastors I’ve submitted myself to in the past were caring.
    The reason I came out of the organised church system is because love the Body of Christ I believe God did not want me to be a part of that division.
    In His last prayer in Gethsemane, Jesus stressed His desire that His people be ONE.

  106. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    Valley Ant, – “Just sitting around” instead of going somewhere?
    Perhaps we have been sent to do something, but we can do that something “just sitting around”, doing from home what God has called us to do!

  107. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    …..or from jail, hospital, wherever we are!

  108. Andrew Nov 16th 2013

    I think it best if this discussion does not get too “personal”, guys.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  109. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    That was meant to be “I love the Body” in the first of these 3 posts.

    Valley Ant, – you’re correct saying that we’re all “supposed to be apostolic or sent”.

  110. There was some really good stuff in that message you shared about being sent ValleyAnt – that really encouraged me… :-)

  111. Andrew Nov 16th 2013

    But if we are all “apostolic”

    Doesn’t that mean that nobody is?

    Sorry – had to ask.

  112. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    It means everybody is!

  113. Lightning Storm Nov 16th 2013

    Shaking the dust off.

    Andrew Strom….thank you for maintaining an open forum for the people of the globe to participate in.
    Especially myself…..you have been longsuffering .

    I can “see” now why many who post here are lonely, AFRAID, in the wilderness, and are struggling with the same iniquity and wounds of the soul for years.
    Who are going in the same circle, year after year after year.

    They serve a LIMITED god. One who is not Sovereign; not Omniscient; not Omnipotent; not Omnipresent……

    a god who is absent, impersonal, impractical, powerless against the will of mankind; impoverished; and DEFEATED by mankind and the devil just by their unbelief…..
    Defeated UNTIL THE DAY OF THE WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT or until each person physically dies.

    Woe is me, Woe is the “church”, Woe is the “body”, Woe is God, Woe are the sinners, Woe are the unregenerate, Woe, Woe, Woe, Woe!

    Deny all you want, but that is what many people have HEARD for years in these comments. not just me folks.

    Many in the past have accused me of not serving the same God as they do.

    TODAY…..I AGREE.

  114. Averyl Nov 16th 2013

    Lonely, afraid, wounded, in the wilderness?
    I don’t think any of us on here are in those categories!

  115. Andrew Nov 17th 2013

    Bye then, LightningStorm.

    Thankyou for informing us of your departure.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  116. Gordon Neil Nov 17th 2013

    There are Few! Yes, there are few you that are True and have God’s faith. The faith of Jesus Christ. You see, it is so easy for men, claiming Christians to say, I have faith in God ….but because they are in troubles due to their unbelief, little or no evidence of Power authored in Jesus’ name: therefore, God has no faith in them; His is not in them. Luke 12 …Judgment .some beaten, some cut up and thrown in with the believers. And then there were some just liars from the top of the head to the bottom of the feet…their motives just Trying To Be Somebody or Get Something. And others have a gene pool corruption and were judged already – Genesis 6, etc.. Just like in the Days of Noah. Noah preached for 120 years and he was troubled, alone – different of all around except the other 7. Lonely??? So What? We never turn back! Deaf ears. We rebuke a lot and fight on!

    Today, We cannot trust what we see or hear in the natural. A small Shiloh Village Romans 8 Christians that know the Power personally that is at the left side of Jesus Christ (Mark 14) march on and we are grateful, so thankful to have found each other. We know the Power, the Love of God in our lives ……..and try to pass on the Truth to others, others at churches, others along our Travels, yet no response ….more ready to rely on the people, places, things and ideas of this world. Giv’me, Giv’me …Liars, thieves, and destroyers …..of no Self Control. We are equal when born into this world ……….all of us sinners among many corrupted already stand with the condemned have blood corrupted problem like in the Days of Noah. God said, ” I’m sorry I made man.”

    Jesus, the Creating Agent, give up his God position by becoming a man, man made in the image of God. ………like God repenting, making away, making amended for a Few that do obey His commands and do get the Board out of their own eye FIRST. I have been given the Word to teach and preach, to carry the message ……but that doesn’t seem to be many places, churches, towns, villages, cites, nations not cursed by the Saints of God.
    Why …….because they refuse to hear God’s voice, refuse to hear the humble man of God. The world only listens to the “Polly wants a Cracker” preaching and teaching that is not true, not the whole true, correct truth, the absolute. No that parrot what they have been taught for the Truth that isn’t. Thank God, it is only by His Spirit and not religion-as-usual. The Shaking is going to get worse. The Churches are trying to do everything they can to pump up the young so they will have a retirement, have claim to some sort of fame ……….of ‘I’m better than him.” Wake Up …….is all about teaching and preaching, “It’s all about me, for me,” It’s all about me, for me.”

    I really have a problem. It is teaching by Bridging so folks, Christians may actually get it and hold on to the seed of the Word and grow and glow. They is so much confusion ….it seem like I’m surely not of the this world. Am I in so kind of trans? I seem something like that at times. I know this world is not my home!

    We are taught that we have a will. Really? As a sinner, the world rule by Satan ……..I have a my own will? Are you NUTS! The Sinner can have Self-control? No He Can Not! The only True Self-
    Control is by the Way of Christ ……….and that self is of love otherwise you do not have self-control. Sinners are simply stupid and ignorant, plugged into the system ……as the World Turns and will defend they rights to stay a slave of Satan the Witch, the Controller, the Manipulator, the Intimidator. The Restrainer is still on earth but withdrawing ……..and the Rapture is just around the corner?

    No wonder Real Prophets, the Real Romans 8 Church is hidden from view……….Like Underground But Word for the Last Days being fully revealed. We must know the enemy surrounds us BUT today the Few lay down in green pastors by the living waters of God. For we are safe and provided for. Some of us may be called upon to speak in the Face of the Enemy which is a privilege and a honor of a Servant of God. I Ask God to Make Me Worthy of His Pleasure.

    The Christians-As-Usual want to hear warm feelings stuff …passive in the American Rights. There is a real bad smell in the air!

    May You know Self-Control by The Power in Jesus’ Holy Name! “poor me’ doesn’t work! Our prosperity, our health, our easy does it life …not making a mountain out of a mold hill doesn’t seem to attract others. The drunks that practice the Steps in AA have more of chance of winning the race than most. There is not many from the ranks of AA and Ala-non that know the author of the Steps BUT, like a few others they did turn their lives, their sinful right (wills) over to the care of God absolutely …they made a covenant with God. Yes, they carefully examined themselves, ask forgiveness and made amends when ever they could not in a way that would harm others. They become quit to pray, repent, ask, talk, test, be molded by God. What a mess the
    Christians made in the lying lives. The street people know a liar, and will take the freebees, the food, the show ………for they know a lot more truth than the Christian-As-usual thinks.

    God loves, Yes, He love the street people and does reach out to them with the Word BUT most outreach Christian programs simply led many to death after stir up some false hope by their teaching and preaching along Broadway.

  117. Gordon Neil Nov 17th 2013

    There are a few Green Pastors and they are growing!

  118. Being a missionary in Africa I can truly relate to this topic and I pray the Lord would give me more of His unconditional love that the true sons of God would be unveiled in this last prophetic hour. Thank you for this article and I pray many more read.

  119. ValleyAnt Nov 17th 2013

    Averyl, I wish Roger was an apostle; I might be the happiest one here if it was so. But I have no apology for what I said. I just sometimes see things ahead of others. Where is ministry if people walk on eggshells? Let’s learn to defend those whom God defends and to be in sync with Him in all things. Here is a little brief on the recent goings on in my own life, showing how little discernment is exercised among Christians, to maybe encourage you to exercise your own discernment even in “the smallest matters”:

    To make this short, I’ll be less ‘nice’ and straight to the point. I have been working for two months under three Christian men. I’ll call them Vick, Sam, and Al. Vick is the executive; Sam is manager under him; and Al is the supervisor under S. Sam operates in the religious spirit and clashes with people he cannot control. But Vick operates in a spirit of fear and avoids confrontation and anything that appears remotely negative, therefore, Sam continues to get his way. Al operates in the Jezebel spirit and is truly a wonder of satanic design. These three have been working hard to oppose my progress at work (Sam and Al mostly, but Vick is afraid and so joins them), and “a threefold cord is not easily broken” (Eccl. 4:12). Their abuse and opposition towards me has gotten way out of hand so that other workers are amazed and wonder what’s going on. Because the battle is against powers in the heavens, these grown men (in their 50s and 60s) are almost ready to pull out their hair because I am alive on planet earth (I chuckle here in spite of myself), especially Sam, the one who operates most in the religious spirit. They have done things that would have them fired if their the owner of the company was to hear about it (and things that I could easily take them to court for). Last Wednesday, after Sam chewed me out with his Bible open in his lap (telling me what a bad person I am and all kinds of things you cannot say in the workplace) and I got it on record, I called my friend ‘Ray’ over. We sat in his car as I played the record back to him. He was beside himself. Then ‘Chad’, the co-owner, happened to come by (this was no coincidence) though he rarely ever comes to this area. I called him over and told him what was going on. He said I must get a hold of ‘Jay’ the company owner and that he will not put up with this kind of thing for a second.

    Now, I called Jay, and we set a meeting… but after Vick talked to him, Vick then said I cannot talk to him nor introduce the recording as it is against the law (etc.). Vick, Sam, and Al have been working very hard to cover up the corruption they allow in the company (it would take forever to go into it); I happen to be the only person who doesn’t agree with it. Vick, as the executive, has a direct line to Jay, the owner, and lied to him about me (etc.)… but Vick’s pastor is also my pastor– ‘Pastor Kyle’. MY friend Ray and I took this to him, and he called for Vick and us two in a meeting; twice, Vick eluded and didn’t show up in the meeting. Pastor Kyle ‘happens’ to know Jay, the company owner. In fact, Pastor Kyle and Jay started the company years ago; therefore, Pastor Kyle also has a direct line to Jay. Pastor Kyle also knows Vick and Sam and has known them for twenty years… but he did not know they were capable of doing these things… until I came. Pastor Kyle is determined to get to the bottom of this, talk to Jay the owner, and find the truth. After Ray met with Vick and Sam (Ray knows Vick as he also goes to our church), he told Pastor Kyle that what I’ve reported is true and not what the pastor had thought for years. All this chaos and peace is currently at war regarding myself. I came here to just work and be; but God apparently plans to expose corrupt leadership. The links He has made are not coincidental. I share this story to encourage the exercise of discernment; if we depend on others to do our discerning for us, then we understand why so many false leaders take the lead (in order to be ‘providers’ of our needs).

    “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. THEN each one’s praise will come from God.” When God reveals hearts and hidden things, then it’s no longer men who commend or disapprove of this one or that one but God Himself. (1Cor. 4:5.)

  120. Averyl Nov 17th 2013

    Valley Ant, – so I’m not exercising discernment! and you are!
    Are you not “judging before the time”?

    By their fruit we can know the difference between true & false.
    Self-righteousness, lack of humility ,verbosity, pomposity and jealousy will not get us far in God’s eyes.

  121. ValleyAnt Nov 17th 2013

    Thanks, Andrew.

    Averyl, regarding ‘just sitting around’, can you copy more of what was written so I read it in its context? I don’t want to go fording through what I wrote. However, I will say this, that God has allowed satan to force me into ‘just sitting around’, which is the very opposite of who I am, so if I say ‘just sitting around’, it isn’t meant in a negative way. Regarding whether to be in a church or not, we are to be led by the Lord. He currently has me inside an institutional church. Regarding Jesus saying that His Sheep don’t follow strangers, this actually isn’t black and white. He is talking about mature Sheep, because lambs and young or inexperience Sheep (Christians) can certainly be led astray by the voice of strangers. Maybe about 10% of the Bible (I’d say less) can be understood by just reading; the rest must be learned by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And yes, we are all to be apostolic/sent. As we see, Stephen and Philip were ‘just deacons'; but they and the other five first chosen deacons were ‘sent’ and therefore had power attend them as we know of Stephen, who was stoned due to the apostolic Grace on him, and Philip who was sent to the Ethiopian eunuch after he started revival in Samaria. All Christians are to be sent, because ‘sent ones’ carry the Lord’s authority which is what glorifies Him and manifests to principalities and powers God’s superior wisdom through the whole Church (not just the ministers).

    Thanks, AJH. I wish I could slow down to put more things on paper. All in time.

    Andrew, being apostolic and being an apostle are different. ‘Apostolic’ means ‘having apostolic Grace’ or ‘being sent’ while ‘apostle’ means ‘ONE who is sent’ and implies ‘one who is chosen and sent for A SPECIFIC PURPOSE’. See the difference? Moreover, the Bible teaches the difference between being an apostle and being apostolic best: Jesus sent the twelve apostles out first, and signs and healings followed them as He commanded them. After that, Jesus then sent out seventy disciples who were also told to do the same things the apostles did and succeeded. The first were apostles (generals if you will) while the second were apostolic. ‘Apostolic’ implies ‘going with purpose’ (sent). Christians are to live with purpose; that purpose is what makes Christians apostolic. Apostles, on the other hand, have a much stronger awareness of this same purpose.

    Elijah, Elisha, and King Jehu are a good teaching on the distinction when the apostolic is absent or present: God did not give Elijah (the prophetic) authority to fight and defeat Jezebel (this may raise some eyebrows, but a study in the Bible begins to raise questions and maybe answers too); He gave him authority to go to King Ahab and to defeat the false prophets of Jezebel but not to fight Jezebel herself or defeat her. God didn’t give Elisha the authority to do this either (you will note that they were very much against Jezebel but don’t fight against or go to her), because the prophetic office BY ITSELF is not given authority or Grace to defeat Jezebel but to expose her and sometimes fight against her. King Jehu came along, and right at his ordination (words that God gave to Elisha), God told him that he was anointed to destroy not just Jezebel but ALL her network. Jehu symbolizes apostolic ministry. When the prophetic is not also apostolic (sent), it won’t have Grace to defeat Jezebel. God has reserved the authority to defeat Jezebel in the apostolic Grace (this means that anyone with apostolic Grace, apostle or not, has the authority inside him or her to defeat Jezebel), because it is all about authority when you begin to talk about facing the enemy. Jehu wasted no time; his chariot ate up the ground as he ran over Jezebel’s offspring and then went to Jezebel herself. “She died, of course.” We see this again in the difference between John the Baptist’s and Jesus’ ministries. Jezebel attacked John as she always does the prophets; she did this through Herodias and her daughter. But when Jesus took center stage (because He was sent and so had the RIGHT of way), Jezebel disappeared from the pages of the Bible (this continued into the apostles’ time) until the last Book, Revelation, where Jesus speaks of Thyatira where Jezebel was “allowed”. No apostle ‘allows’ anything that is darkness and discord. This means that if a person is an apostle, he will have a level of authority that Jezebel RECOGNIZES (she takes advantage of lacking authority to continue her work) and flees from. Jezebel flees from the apostolic Grace (goes into hiding when it’s around, because she knows it spells her death) but attacks the prophetic Grace. These things need books to be written in order to explain. Summary: a prophet who doesn’t have apostolic Grace (like in the OT) hates Jezebel and her ways but isn’t given Grace to actually deal with her; an apostle (and an apostolic person, especially a mature one) hates Jezebel the same… and the difference is that he/she WILL have the authority (RIGHT) to deal with Jezebel. We are all to BE apostolic; we aren’t all apostolic yet. But while we are all to BE apostolic, we will not all be apostles. I know that’s not the best way to answer your question, but these things require written books.

  122. Averyl Nov 17th 2013

    Valley Ant, – I don’t want “to go fording” through what you wrote either, I’m sure nobody does!
    If you properly read what other people post you would understand that “just sitting around” is not a problem, we can still be used by God when we are confined, (Paul did while locked up in jail).

    “We are all to be apostolic; we aren’t all apostolic yet”, – & “no apostle allows anything that is darkness or discord”, – oh my goodness!

    Some people are just so full of themselves but think they are full of the Holy Spirit! Where’s the discernment? We need to examine ourselves & take the logs of wood out of our own eyes…

  123. Averyl Nov 17th 2013

    So you can’t accuse me of “walking on egg shells”!

  124. Andrew Nov 17th 2013

    And CALM DOWN – which would help.

  125. Andrew Nov 17th 2013

    Please people, get out of “personal” mode and back to commenting on the issues.

    Thanks so much

  126. ValleyAnt Nov 17th 2013

    Gordon Neil, there are many green pastors who are growing! Thank God for them. May they continue to grow!

    Robert Clancy, amen. May God unveil more and more of His sons and His Life with them. Amen. God bless your work there in Africa.

    Averyl, what it means to “judge nothing before the time” is to not depend on one or a few instances to make a judgment but to keep one’s ears and eyes open, waiting until the Lord reveals a thing. In the context of Paul saying that, you will be interested to see what he says before that:

    “With me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.”

    Following this, Paul then said, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”

    I can in the same way say I know nothing against myself. But not knowing anything against yourself doesn’t make you innocent; however “He who judges me is the Lord.” This means that Jesus alone (and thus far in my life) judges me correctly. I am presently in a situation where, because of outrage from Christian leaders against me, the majority vote was so against me that the leaders were lying even to the owner who has the authority to fire them if he ever finds out what they’ve been doing. But the Lord began to turn the situation, and it is coming to a head. Those who judged before the time are realizing that they didn’t have the full story nor the real story. If people judge me, it doesn’t matter to me because only the Lord knows me. Someone has said before, “Do what you feel and say what you think, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” If we go to pieces when people say negative things about us, then we certainly aren’t fit to “run swiftly with the Lord” in ministry. God bless you and give you peace too. Amen.

  127. ValleyAnt Nov 17th 2013

    Duly noted, Andrew. Let the peace of God reign. Goodnight everyone. And I will be back ( >_< ) Lol. God bless all.

  128. In order to bring some other angles to this discussion thread on apostles, research undertaken has shown that in order to be an apostle, the Bible indicates they had to meet at least 3-4 qualifications:
    1. An apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected
    Christ
    2.An apostle had to be directly appointed by Jesus
    3.An apostle had to be able to confirm his mission and
    message with the miraculous.
    4.As with Matthias -someone who had accompanied
    Jesus throughout His entire earthly ministry

    Based on the above, many people believe there are no apostles in the church today because no-one can meet the qualifications of having seen the risen Christ with his own eyes.

    The New Testament apostles had a special type of authority in the early church:
    *The authority to speak and write words which were “words of God”
    *The apostles had the authority to write words which became words of Scripture.

    This may suggest that there was something unique about the office of apostle, which we would not see today, for no one today can add words to the Bible and have them included as God’s own words or as part of Scripture. Also if there were still apostles in the church today, with the same authority as the New Testament apostles, how could we say that the Canon is closed?

    Validated by signs and miracles, the Apostles established the faith for the whole Church and established the written word by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once the scriptures were completed, the Church had all that was necessary in the area of revelation truth.

    Paul’s own words in defence of his apostleship claim in 1 Cor. 9:1: “Am I not an apostle? … Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Essentially there were two different groups – those who were with Jesus when he was alive and were witnesses of his resurrection and Paul as one who was witness to his resurrection but not of the 12.

    Scriptures show that the apostles were special men commissioned for a unique role in a particular time period for the Church. (Ephesians 2:20) “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…Notice past tense, been built. Once a foundation is laid it does not need to be laid down again, it is built upon “ It was upon these men, the apostles and prophets, that the foundation the church was built on, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.

    If there are apostles today in the sense of the Church’s beginnings, there would have to be new revelation. This would have to be included as Scripture because apostolic revelation is authoritative and infallible. It would then be on the same level as our Bible. To say we have modern day apostles like Matthew and Paul is to say Scripture is continually being written which means rejecting the former revelation of the apostles given by Jesus.

    The greatest men who influenced church throughout history never claimed they were apostles or prophets. We find the only apostles mentioned in church history after the Bible was completed were false ones.

    We still do have the operation of the spiritual gifts. The Biblical definition of the position of apostle is as an appointed office by Christ, not merely a spiritual gift. The word apostle can be used in a general sense in reference to someone commissioned to go out. In this sense, a believer can exercise the gift of apostleship today, as a ‘sent out one.’ However, perhaps one cannot claim to hold the office of an apostle in the same way as the early church apostles did.

    The above provides an opportunity for discussion in light of all the ‘false’ apostles and prophets littering USA landscapes today, some with suspect signs and wonders!

  129. Marilyn Crow Nov 17th 2013

    Hi AM,

    You are right in relation the requirements of the 12 Apostles because they had to witness to the life, death & resurrection of our Lord. (Acts 1: 22) However the Apostles of the Body of Christ since then are those of the ascended Christ.

    `when He ascended on high ….He gave gifts of men…` (Eph. 4: 8)
    `& He gave some as apostles…. for the equipping…. until we all attain the unity of the faith & of the knowledge of the Son of God…` (Eph. 4: 11 – 13)

    It is so wonderful to me to read of people receiving the truth of Apostles. I have been brought up with Apostles, Prophets, etc
    but they were never received across the Body in the `60`s & `70`s.

    I so thank the Lord that His Holy Spirit is leading the Body into all the truth of Christ, His character & His purposes, & that includes the revelation of gifts of apostles. Most times of unseen people, gifts of apostle, doing unseen & unappreciated work by the world at large, but still bringing revelation to the Body that over time comes to be recognised, even though the messenger is not.

    Bless you all, Marilyn C.

  130. Gordon Neil Nov 17th 2013

    There are words of God written down everyday. Yes, that’s right, that is Holy Right, NO COPY RIGHT of the world. The Bible is the inspired word of God for us BUT Oh Thank God is doesn’t stop there ……we write inspired of God. We walk inspired, driven in a Passion for the Love of God ……beyond measure that draws us!

    I Journal almost everyday before the Lord. The Words of God written down within the Journal is for me personally, my personal relationship with God. However, others seem to speak the same language, have the same purpose of heart. Others do not or they are not ready yet be close in Christ.

    God writes all the time. However, Satan puts out words clothed as light ………..Big Time and we test all including me, myself examination ..other helps me include dogs, horses, plants, things all around.. Many of you write God’s inspired words …Holy Words of Light that only sons and daughters of God by His Holy Spirit can write and speak. Thank You! By His Spirit, His Love for us, we can know the difference.

    Satan wants God in Box type Christianity. Rules and Laws and Traditions and on and on. Jesus, the Blood, Liberates the Oppressed …….The mark of the Romans 8 Church members like most of you ……….reporters, family lovers of God and by His faith you are preparing and being equipped to be – are ready to Marry, the Bride and sit, be One in Christ Jesus. Because of God’s Word we are, not fooled, know the Power – our Father by Marriage by the Blood. We know who we are! We remain blessed assured no matter what! WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED!

    James 3:17-18
    17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
    NKJV

    1 Peter 1:17-21

    17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    All Truth written and worked comes from God and does not Differ From the Bible Foundation of Life …doesn’t add to or take away from the Narrow, the Truth ……….that leads to the Gate of Life, the Gate House. In Shiloh Village ……..we live in a doorway that is safe and we pray the Prayers, asking God so as to Lay His Hands of Us always ………and we stay safe …… Thanks Andrew for the Opportunity to know others living in the Joy of the Lord by their personal fight, the race, their trials, their desire to Please God and God alone.

  131. marilyn Nov 17th 2013

    AM…Your written study on apostles of the Bible is explained clearly, without adding what you would like to read into it (and then calling that “truth”). It is clear and precise. I have come away with the same take on this subject since my study, and so does John MacArthur, who has been labeled a heretic on this site, so thank you for your boldness in bringing up this very important angle. BTW, I read John MacArthur years after my study and questioning what I had been taught. So it was refreshing to read someone else was able to so thoroughly explain what I was getting out of it.

    Marilyn C. has brought up Ephesians chapter four. Actually, the entire chapter is the context and is very good. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. This matter of titles seems to be a very important one to those visiting this site, so each one should study and not take for granted what they heard is truth in this matter. To me, I know God is active in His Body. Actually, more context of Ephesians would be in 1:15-23. That is what Paul prayed for those who have faith. It is such a bunny trail away from God to have to attach to men and offices and argue whether they are for today or not, and then divide and throw stones and slander one another by what we interpret, instead of living in unity and being blessed by what each one adds to our growth, because we are all of one body. We have very much been blessed by all the giftings in the Body. My fellowship just doesn’t camp on making sure we distinguish each title. And no one says in our group, “I am an apostle, sent by God.” We would not receive that, for good reason. How are we built up in Christ by all this posturing on apostles of today?

    Mr. Grady writes: “God wants to pour out a new wave of apostolic power on our generation. But we can’t be trusted with this anointing if we refuse to grow up.” Hmmmmm. I have never thought of Mr. Grady as a mouthpiece for God. And, since when does God “want” to do something but man was not capable, so God’s plans were thwarted?!

    God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. On those who receive and those who don’t. If I choose to believe that the title of God sent apostle is not for today, how will that hinder the Holy Spirit being poured out into my life? If you think you are a modern day apostle and no one receives you as such, how does that hinder your walk with the Lord? The apostles were God’s order, they didn’t have to go around saying, “Hey I’m an apostle.” They were known and received, they had the power of the Holy Spirit to preach His word with clarity that His word was understood. Jesus didn’t have to wait until Peter matured. God matured him! And God raised up each apostle for His purpose, those that were eye witnesses. These foundational apostles were desperately needed to form the church, wouldn’t you say? Eye witnesses that Jesus was the Son of God. Everything that will take place has been written in the Bible. Nothing can be added or taken away.

    What attracts me to this site is the prophetic gifting. Some of the writings in the comments have helped me tremendously. With others , it is like anywhere else. Lots of prideful opinions. Jesus desires that we be one, even as the Father and Son are one. Yowza! I don’t cling to what I believe on this subject, because someone can say what they see in the Scriptures and cause me to go back and study and maybe see what they are seeing. We are told that “no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.” So, as we are all on our journey as aliens, can we please not throw stones at one another, as it is God who opens our eyes to any blindness.

  132. Andrew – I note and respect your request to keep comments away from being personal.

    ValleyAnt – my previous offers to you remain, that you contact me privately and share whatever you have against me.

    In the love which is Christ Jesus,
    Roger

  133. Andrew Nov 17th 2013

    I know for a fact that God wants “Book of Acts” churches right now everywhere.

    But I also know that the state of the Body and lukewarmness is blocking this from happening.

    Whose fault? God’s?

    I say this world is not His “kingdom” and His will is thwarted every day by selfish men on this planet.

    Very obvious.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  134. watchful Nov 17th 2013

    I’ve been away, and just trying to catch up…..Lightning Storm, I hope it isn’t a misunderstanding of my last comment that has caused you to want to leave…?….I was very much agreeing with your previous post, and shared your concern, but possibly my comments were too “obscure” or “indirect” (not sure if these are the right words) and therefore easily misunderstood..

  135. God is quite able to humble the mightiest of men, and that whenever he chooses! Nebuchadnezzar learnt this the hard way I pray no one POSTING AND READING HAS TO

  136. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, (Acts 14:14 NASB)

    Barnabas was named in scripture as being an Apostle… :-)

  137. My post above is incomplete I apologize if any one takes offense
    It seems to me the church that is presented to the unsaved by the media, internet et al, is a dissenting, argumentative, disunited, loose grouping, full of private ideas and interpretations.naming His name but no heart/vision shaped by “Christ in you the Hope of Glory”
    Many ambitious persons aspire to climb what they believe to be the Ecclesiastical ladder to fame, fortune, and recognition, praise of God and man, and mainly themselves!
    Who’s fault is that? Not God’s. Not Satan’s, in the very first corruption of God’s Word, remember!. Eve put the blame on Satan. Adam, the wimp who stood silently by watching it all happen blamed God “The woman ( YOU gave me) gave it to me to eat”
    The blame is fairly and squarely on the sons of men

    We, the Spirit filled must to heed the first churches example in Acts 2 42 they continued steadfastly in the Apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
    I am willing to confess that despite our desire to do so we collectively are not living Acts 2 42! Until we do as His servants not our own, but bought with a price!
    Sadly Andrew’s “book of Acts churches” will not be manifest.
    Even though scripture tells me over and over and over, we are equipped to do so! We have all the God given instruction and attributes.at our calling, He has provided them all.
    I am not sure we need new Apostles, we should listen to the ones who are the foundation 1 Cor 3
    Pr Michael

  138. ValleyAnt Nov 18th 2013

    AM, you bring good questions and comments to the discussion about whether or not apostles are for today. Marilyn Crow answers you well.

    It’s no surprise that the issue surrounding the very ‘rock’ on which the Church is built (present continuous tense) will be hotly debated: revelation. When the religious leaders asked about Jesus, “How can this Guy know all this without having studied the Scriptures,” Jesus answered, “My doctrine is not Mine but His who sent Me” (Jn. 7:16). We have been taught to view the Bible through ‘religious lens’; i.e. when we read the Bible, we don’t naturally view it as being NOW (contemporary, relevant to our now world). Because of this, we miss a lot of what is being said and shown. In the above, what’s happening is that the ‘Jews’ (the religious leaders) didn’t want to do God’s will or live for God; because of this, they always sought to find fault with Jesus, find something they could use to justify their rejection of Him: “This Guy isn’t even an authority!” they projected their resistance to follow Him; therefore, He replied, “The things I teach aren’t things I learned in any school; rather, the Father told Me these things.” He is appealing to the Jewish heart that ‘receives God the Father’ and telling them, “You have no reason to not listen to Me, because what I am telling you comes from your God.” We see this clearer when we read on:

    “If any man WILLS to do His will, he will know CONCERNING THE DOCTRINE whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority” (Jn. 7:17).

    There are verses and portions of Scripture that sum up pretty much all of God’s will (or sum up the answers to certain questions); the above passage is one when it comes to what to believe regarding whether or not apostles are for today. In that passage, the religious didn’t want to follow Jesus (God); so, Jesus told them clearly, “If you really wanted to do My will, God would MAKE SURE you know it… so you can DO it.” In Mt. 7:24-25, He says, “Whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.” James tells us not to be hearers only (or not to believe God’s Word in theory) but doers also, because those who hear and don’t do deceive themselves (they blind themselves but think they can see; but they can never understand the Scriptures but think their blindness is sight), thinking they will enter God’s peace and rest but will not as Jesus shared earlier in that Mt. 7 passage: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’… but him who does the WILL of My Father” (v. 21).

    God knows those who want to do and those who don’t (“The LORD knows those who are His”); this is tricky, because we live on this plane and aren’t daily aware of this. To those who want to do God’s will, He gives them the knowledge of it, and they can more easily believe His Word written in the Bible, because He opens their eyes to believe so they can DO or perform it. But those who don’t want to do in their hearts do not know why they are blind (they don’t know they are blind) and unable to see truths clearly written in the Bible. John alludes to the fact that this in fact happens here: “He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes” (1Jn. 2:9-11). It’s all a mystery. A person who chooses in their hearts not to love (the Bible’s definition here of ‘hate’ is ‘choosing not to love’) walks in darkness; they cannot see but are not aware of it. They don’t understand the Scriptures and think they do, because they do not know they are in the dark—they don’t know they can’t see. It’s a very bad place to be in, because deception locks all doorways out except the doorway of Grace. But who knows who will find that doorway in the dark, therefore, the Bible tells everyone to “be diligent to enter His rest”; this is the rest of obedience, taking His easy yoke, learning from Him.

    Jesus praised God for hiding His wisdom from the learned (those who think they know) and revealing it to babes (those who are humble enough to be aware that they do not fully know and are willing to learn). God doesn’t do this on a basis of bias, hiding His goods from those who displease Him and giving them to those who please Him; it is how it works by spiritual Law. Jesus said it: “If ANYone WILLS to do His will, HE will know CONCERNING THE DOCTRINE” when a thing is presented from a human being and when it comes directly from God. (Jn. 7:17.) David said, “My soul will make its boast in the LORD; the HUMBLE will HEAR of it, and be glad” (Ps. 34:2). When a person reads the Bible—say something as clear as Eph. 4:7-16—and still does not believe what is written in the pages (and what all of life and Heaven and Hell bear witness to), they should of necessity ask God to reveal to them what the real truth is or remain in that deception that blinds so well that many will not get out of it and will say in that Day, “Did we not [do] in Your Name” but will realize that in all their doing, they did not DO the Father’s will, because they would not HEAR it. “FOREVER, oh LORD, Your Word is SETTLED in Heaven” (Ps. 119:89). Those who don’t settle it (make peace with it) here on earth will be shocked in the last Day.

  139. marilyn Nov 18th 2013

    I know for a fact that we are saved by faith alone, by grace alone. That Jesus Christ is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews chapter 7 for context.

    THIS IS WHAT JESUS SAYS ABOUT BEING LUKEWARM:

    “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God; I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of mouth.

    Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing—–and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

    I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

    To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Rev. 3:1-22

    Speaks so much clearer to the hearer’s heart with God’s instruction than man’s words telling us that what we really need are apostles in our lives, and not wanting them makes us lukewarm. I’d much rather buy from Jesus with My willingness, to be changed by Him. Him I trust.

    Many, many of us are fellowshipping as the church in Acts. “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers.” We seek to please Him with our lives. If your interpretation is to have apostles in our lives is “fact”, then God will make this known to us. It is not because we are lukewarm that we are not seeing it. “I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, let us, as any as are mature, have this in mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.” Philippians 3:14-15

    Again, how has our discussion on how desperately we need apostles to save us, edified the Body of Christ or brought us closer to trusting only in HIM?

  140. ValleyAnt Nov 18th 2013

    Because the issue of believing God’s Word (or agreeing with God) is of great importance, I did a short google search, and here is a pretty short article on the importance God places on believing His Word (agreeing with Him): http://www.jba.gr/Articles/jbajulysep02c.htm.

    Within the article, we are reminded of what both Moses and Paul quoted– that God’s Word is not far up in Heaven or out of our reach but is near us, even WITHIN us, so that we can DO it. He writes in part:

    “The Lord in Deuteronomy speaking of His commandment He said that it is not far nor it is mysterious. It is not something difficult to determine and which nobody knows its meaning. His Word is not a puzzle. They didn’t have to go up to the heaven or over the sea to find it. They didn’t have to become ponderous or professors of theology to understand it. It was very close, in their mouth and heart.”

    Some believe they can settle on a belief or cast away beliefs without making totally sure first and still be safe; but God wants us to do His will and to find it when we don’t know it. If we just say of something in the Bible, “Well, I just don’t believe it” or “It isn’t for today” but don’t wade into the Bible with the Holy Spirit to unveil truth to us in order to truly find out, the danger is a lot more real than we know. As the Holy Spirit says, “Today, IF YOU WILL HEAR His voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 3:15). Those who say, “I just don’t believe it” or “the Bible doesn’t say that”– any attitude that says, “I know better” without getting in to find out– is in fact hardening one’s heart. Those who think that God’s Word is something you can downplay and which you can judge through self or experience or teachings need to reconsider quickly. Jesus gives insight into what the judgment is really going to be like (as far as the basis for judgment and where the judgment will really come from) in Jn. 12:

    “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

    People who choose to not believe God (instead of digging into the Word to settle whatever it is they don’t believe) will have a most unlikely judge in the last Day. I like the way Jesus said it, because it really is true. Picture standing before the Father with Jesus on one side. You have believed what you believed and discredited as relevant for today certain things which are forever “settled in Heaven”. You wait for God to speak, to enter Heaven under the awning of Jesus’ sacrifice. Then the Word walks up to you and introduces Himself as your Lawyer. He opens a Book, the Word of God, and compares your life to what is written in it. Then He passes a judgment of guilty on you. You can’t believe it. But then the Lord says, “The WORD which I spoke to you will judge you in the last Day.” The Word judges fairly (“the Word that I have spoken will judge him in the last Day”), because it actually gives us the keys to judge ourselves so that no one actually judges us (though God does pass the sentence), then at the judgment mirrors back to us OUR judgment on ourselves. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven; some people will find to their dismay that though on earth, the Word isn’t regarded as final, in Heaven things are entirely different, and there the Word is not only the Judge (decision-maker) but also the Final Decision.

  141. Andrew S -I totally agree with your comments below:

    I know for a fact that God wants “Book of Acts” churches right now everywhere. But I also know that the state of the Body and lukewarmness is blocking this from happening. Whose fault? God’s? I say this world is not His “kingdom” and His will is thwarted every day by selfish men on this planet.
    Very obvious.Bless you! Andrew Strom

    This very day I was talking with an older lady who has been in ministry for years -in and out of the church. We agreed the unity is not there amongst the brethren, whether in or out the church walls. We can’t just blame bad leaders -God will deal with them eventually. But the true Body does not want to move together for some reason. We all know the ‘issues’, we all know what we should do -but no-one is actually doing it -anywhere. We all need to operate in the gifts and use them to build each other up, to go out and do the ‘work’ of the Gospel in the highways and byways.
    There are measures of things occurring and people are still getting saved, healed and whatever. God’s working spirit is greater than the foolishness of mankind. but much of the work today is under the control of ambitious men (and women), run like businesses and mostly outside the Holy Spirit domain. People are hungry for the real McCoy -they truly are. The unsaved can see the hypocrisy of our manmade religions. But that is not helping them stay out of hell either. We do not see still the true Gospel being preached and the many mixtures entering pulpits is not helping the Body moving together as well.

    This world is not God’s kingdom as Andrew S stated. We are preparing people to get to where His Kingdom truly is –
    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence”.

    So maybe throw out any ‘Kingdom Now’ false theology on your radar!

    Lets start praying for HIS Body to start coming and working together as Tozer anticipated. But are we prepared to let the manmade stuff go, the place carved for ourselves in the structure go, the so called ministry go, and simply love one another and do what God told us all to do in the beginning -no strings attached. Amen to all.

  142. ValleyAnt Nov 18th 2013

    Marilyn, you said, “Again, how has our discussion on how desperately we need apostles to save us, edified the Body of Christ or brought us closer to trusting only in HIM?” Do you see that what you said there is not something anyone has said? You said that the discussion is on how desperately we need apostles to save us; but no one person has said anything close to that. If you have missed out on what’s written here, consider that you can miss out what’s written in the Bible. On the other hand, I have been edified a great deal by this discussion.

    The real issue isn’t apostles and ministers and what people want; it is building the Church how Jesus wants it built, and there’s only one way to build it His way as He said—by revelation. Do you know why the Holy Spirit is given to teach us when we already have the Bible? Do you know why Paul prayed that God the Father give the Ephesians “a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him” (i.e. to continually give them openness of spiritual eyes and ears so they can continually know Him)? Do you know why Jesus said that the Church is built (present tense) on the rock of continually-proceeding revelation? Do you know why Jesus didn’t say that man lives by God’s written Word alone but by the continually-proceeding Word? Do you know why when the manna fell in the desert, the Israelis were only allowed to collect it daily and that whatever they stored up would rot?

    You also said that a portion of Revelation “speaks so much clearer to the hearer’s heart with God’s instruction than man’s words telling us that what we really need are apostles in our lives, and not wanting them makes us lukewarm.” Yet no one has said we need apostles and that not having them makes us lukewarm. You then say, “I’d much rather buy from Jesus with My willingness, to be changed by Him. Him I trust.” You are missing the issue. I would rather make money without working… but God has told me to work; I would rather have five children in one day… but that’s probably not going to happen; I would rather not need anyone to accomplish anything for God… but God hasn’t made it to be that way. We have ‘rathers’ and lots of them; God, rather, has His will. You are speaking what we speak in the West; this kind of talk does not come from a third world country: “I would rather.” Because he loved God, David said in essence, “I would rather build the temple for God than have anyone else do it”; his heart was so noble that even the seasoned prophet Nathan told him in essence, “Do it; God definitely agrees with you there.” Nathan and David thought they knew God’s will because it was so… right… but God told Nathan that very same night to tell David he wasn’t the one to build the temple but Solomon. (Story is found in 2Sam. 7.) Many Christians today are running around thinking, “I would rather”; but God has established His will and His own prerogative. You will not be judged by the good intentions in your heart but by your obedience to God’s Word. When God declined David’s offer to build Him a temple, He blessed David in his history with God and in what David was supposed to do, telling him that it was good for such a thing to be in his heart but that his portion was not to build God a temple but to enjoy the blessings God had pre-ordained for him. Again with King Saul, we see that he presumed he could offer a sacrifice (instead of Samuel the prophet) since it was a necessity… but God felt differently, and King Saul was rebuked for it.

    You said, “If your interpretation is to have apostles in our lives is ‘fact’, then God will make this known to us.” God doesn’t follow us trying to prove that what He has already told us in His Word is true (of course, He is gracious according to how much blindness is willful and how much is just from ignorance); He makes known all the time, but those who know what He makes known are those who want to know, not those who want God to ‘re-prove’ Himself. No one here has said that we ‘need’ to have apostles in our lives. However, I agree with the Bible that we need to obey God’s Word. God’s Word says that Jesus set certain ministries in the Church which are to be in it until the very end of time; one of these ministries is the apostolic ministry. I often go back to the OT, because the OT says what the NT says (and vice versa); however, we often can’t see what the NT says because we’ve become too familiarized to it. We’re like a man standing several feet from the side of a high-rise building and who sees paint sprayed here and there on the building and mumbles, “Hoodlums.” But one day, while he is on a bus on an overpass and riding past the same building, he gasps in shock as he looks at it: what he had seen as only paint here and there turned out to be a large, beautiful mural professionally painted on the side of that building. In the same way, we tend to be ‘too close’ to the NT and often miss what’s right in front of us; looking at the NT from the OT can give a great deal more perspective when this is the case: Ps. 133, only three verses, says that the Church must dwell in unity, that to God this is a very good thing. I believe you agree with that. Ps. 133 also says God has established an order that must be in place if His blessings are to be released on a very large scale. This seems to be where all the debate is (order and structure). Ps. 133 finally says that when there is BOTH unity (fellowship) AND structure (leadership and order), then the fullness of Life Jesus came to give us will be ours. The number 2 means witness or testimony: “If two of you agree on earth…”

    After having said all this, I agree with what you quoted. I know many are hurting from abusive Christianity, but my prayer is that we still leave room for God and His goodness. This is where great Grace will be needed specifically in our times where, as someone said above, the false and abusive ministers have made things to where the true ministers will be condemned as guilty before a trial and before being proven innocent. God’s GOOD will and intentions for us remains the same through all generations (everything He gives is good; God does not give abusive and lying ministers, He gives GOOD ministers). As you said, if you will to know the truth so you can do God’s will, then “God will reveal even this to you” (Phil. 3:15).

  143. marilyn Nov 18th 2013

    Thank you ValleyAnt. I will spread out all that you have written before God and ask Him to open my eyes to what is truth.

  144. Gordon Neil Nov 18th 2013

    Ant from the Valley …I thank God that through you a Fire Light for Pass It On Ministries to relay, pass the Rod, the baton, the Word so as to Help Others …those that take it to race, finish the race, fight on until their time in the flesh is fulfilled, until the feast as One with God – Family. Andrew, Thanks Again!

    Over and over again I (we) become more and more like Jesus Christ, from glory to glory ………and in doing so we have the Power, the Evidence of God in us and through us. The message; God is Love and we stand to remain His own forever and ever knowing the Power, knowing who we are living in His Promises, His Purpose – Pleasure, in the Spirits before His Throne …re: Jeremiah 33:3; Mark 16: 14-18 ..all the fruits of Life have Power.

  145. What is clarity to one is not clear to another, such is the root of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, of which we are all partakers of.

    For, there is One Body, and One Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord [of One Spirit], one faith [by One Spirit], One baptism [by the same One Spirit], One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all and [through His Spirit is] in you all. (Ephesians 4 verse 4 thru 6.)

    Many years ago, when in prayer, I had a revelation that in the end will speak of the above relational scriptures. My wife Rose and I had come home after a Wednesday home fellowship. Rose had gone to bed, and I went into the living room to kneel at a chair and began to pray to the Lord. I do not recall what melancholic need that prompted the following plea to the Lord, but, it was probably very similar to one of your calls to our Savior. In the midst of my prayer I cried out softly to the Lord Jesus, “O Lord, ……, I sure wish I could see you, right now.” What I heard in my being came back so profoundly, so powerfully full of truth that I knew instantly that the Lord by His Holy Spirit had spoken and not the mind of this man. The Holy Spirit said, “I have put My Spirit in Joseph: I have put My Spirit in Debbie: I have put My Spirit in Rose. Behold your Master!” The names were some of those Christians that I had fellow shipped with that evening including my wife. In the Body of Jesus Christ, are we not all members and servants of each other, so that the Lord’s Body by His Spirit would not only serve itself in the unity of God’s Love for us, but also a world of lost souls. Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto Me.

    If one begins to understand the clarity of this truth of God’s Agape kind of Love, then how do you judge your brothers and sisters born of faith, even the Spirit’s Seed of the Word of God, who sits in the pew next to you, or your brothers and sisters in the denominational church down the street? Is it by carnal eyes that judge on natural appearances? Or do you see with spiritually crucified eyes discerning that they are each the temple of the HOLY GHOST? If one lacks understanding in this matter, then it is far better not to judge the people of God at all, less you censure and grieve the LORD, Who is your Master and Judge! If a man say, I love [Agapao] God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves [Agapao] not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love [Agapao] God, whom he has not seen? 1st John 4:20

    Deeply cut to the quick by the Word of God,
    Robert Glenn

  146. Gordon Neil Nov 18th 2013

    Judgment ………God, The Power is the Judge and He chose, Jesus to Judge all, the Creator of all. Therefore, we, that have Jesus in us by God in us, the Holy Spirit do judge by the Doctrine of God, The Power that is Love. In the Spirit comes discernment, knowing the Difference. However, it is my personally experience, strength and hope …that God gives to me discernment, knowing the difference in a person, place, thing, spirit, idea and once I get it from God ………the next is: What do I do with that Holy Knowledge, Judgment of God? It is very simple but not so simple as a Babe in Christ. The Babe is going to flunk at times. We learn, we begin more and more follow Jesus Christ and do nothing on our own!

  147. Gordon Neil Nov 18th 2013

    Again ….I know all about flunking for I had a Ball Bat Salvation …God does love me and God personally told me …”I loved you before you were born.”

  148. Gordon Neil Nov 18th 2013

    Again, while Journal writing inspired of God, Jesus MY Teacher and My Pastor and My King, My Music Director, My Friend that watches My Back when in troubled waters …not a Babe today…He reminded me ………..of the Christians-As-Usual the AWOL Christians and the Phony Baloneys is due to NOT Obeying the Commands of God written down for all to see and hear in the natural and the Spirit writes the Commands down on the Tablets of His own hearts. But, so often the FIRST Command is replaced, or set-back for Satan’s brand of Joy of the Lord.

    The Command is ‘Get the Board, the Church Board, the Broadway Board, the Plank out of our own eye FIRST. This is the FIRST works faith in God or not. The only way this happens is that we have the faith of God in us, not alone walking, doing in the Spirit. The Romans 8 Church. A James Club Group…getting honest with God, ourselves and others is paramount. …So as to remove our character defects and replacing them with the character of Jesus Christ. Keeping It Simple …not hard of yourself and others.

    So being a Disciple, a Apostle, a son or daughter of God through Jesus Christ by the Blood Assurance FIRST starts with FIRST THINGS FIRST. MANY may start off good to go BUT can not, do not finish the race or use the gifts of God for their own pleasure. So, we have many ministers headed for Hell leading others along Their Own Way. I know many that believe but do not believe …led astray and they simply defend their demise. WARNINGs of God ………there will be no excuses. So, personal relationship is the Word ..becoming more and more like Jesus in all our affairs.

  149. Averyl Nov 18th 2013

    Great posts!

    Here is a website you might like to look at, you will have to Google it though, – . Booklets on there you can open. I recommend “And to the Church in Auckland Write”.

  150. Andrew S – How can man thwart God’s will? Can you find that for me in scripture? The word tells us that the Lord is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”, but to actually thwart His will is another matter.

    Here is what thwart means:

    thwart transitive verb \ˈthwȯrt\
    : to prevent (someone) from doing something or to stop (something) from happening. (Merriam Webster)

    Who can stop God from doing something that He wills?

    And ALL His word will most definitely be fulfilled!

  151. Andrew Nov 18th 2013

    Yes – here it is in Scripture-

    “Your kingdom come, your WILL BE DONE
    on earth as it is in heaven.”

    Jesus is specifically asking us to pray that God’s will would start to be done on earth. So clearly at the moment it is NOT. It is only places that are actually God’s “kingdom” where His will is truly done.

    Look around you. Does this look like a planet where God’s will is being done?

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  152. Averyl Nov 18th 2013

    If any kiwis have SkyTv, BBC Knowledge is airing a series called “Christianity: A History”. The first was hosted by Jewish Howard Jacobson, about anti-Semitism but done sympathetically. (he doesn’t draw the line between Catholicism & true Christianity though). .

    The 2nd is hosted by Michael Portillo, ex Defence minister of UK? He certainly knows the Bible & tells of the Church in Acts & how it became institutionalised by Constantine. It airs again this Saturday 23rd Nov.,at 2.45 p.m.. it could be a repeat of the 2nd or the 3rd instalment. If it’s a repeat of the 2nd, it’s worth recording as it relates to the topic we are discussing.

  153. Ahhhhhh I see what you’re saying now Andrew, thank you for explaining your statement :-)

    His will is being done in those who are His, but I do pray that His will be done in the WHOLE earth as it is in Heaven, just as Jesus said.

    Many Blessings!

  154. The gift of being an Apostle is still for today…

    I was brought up in an Open Brethren background where this was not believed…

    It took the Holy Spirit quite some time to open my eyes to see that the gift of the Apostle & Prophet were still functioning today…

    Barnabas was not one – I believe – who had been with Jesus since the beginning…

    There is also no record of Him having had a revelation of Jesus Christ, i.e. a personal encounter with Jesus Christ like the one Paul had on the Damascus Road…

    But he was an Apostle…

    Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet. (Acts 4:36-37 NASB)

    The Holy Spirit set him apart to be an Apostle…

    He was commissioned at the same time as the Apostle Paul…

    Through the Church at Antioch…

    When the Lord calls us to be an Apostle He also commissions us through His Body to operate in this sphere…

    So there is unity in all things…

    While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (Acts 13:2 NASB)

    The call to be an Apostle comes from God – from the Holy Spirit in the case of Barnabas – but the commission to operate in Apostolic power and authority is endued through the Body through the laying on of hands…

    Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:3 NASB)

    The Lord will restore this gift and the gift of the Prophet to His Body before we all reach the unity of the faith… :-)

  155. Marilyn Crow Nov 19th 2013

    Amen AJ.

    Here is a list of the early NT Apostles (besides the 12).

    Paul & Barnabas chosen by prophecy. (Acts 14: 14)
    Andronicus & Junias of note among the Apostles. (Rom. 16: 7)
    James the Lord`s brother. (Gal. 1:19)
    Apollos. minister or Apostle. (1 Cor. 3: 5 & 4: 1 Weymouth translates it Apostles)
    Silvanus & Timotheus. (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)
    Epaphroditus. `Your messenger.` Apostle (Phil. 2: 25)
    Titus, here does the work of an Apostle. (Titus 1: 5)

  156. Andrew Nov 19th 2013

    Tyrone – I wish we Christians talked more about the fact that this world is currently not God’s “kingdom” – and therefore tons of things happen here that are not His will.

    Then maybe people would not blame God for all the cancers and horrific things that happen.

    Why have we not explained this??

    -Andrew Strom

  157. Claudia Nov 19th 2013

    Thank you, AM for your words on the original Apostles posted on Nov 17th 2013….and your entire discussion. I have always suspected that the Apostles were a separate, unique, one time group of men called to help establish the WORD….the “kindling” that helped start the cleansing “Fire” of YHWH upon this earth….the “Spark” being Yeshua, His Son…the Light amongst us.

    Now each one who receives this “Fire” can be a Lantern for others in this dark night coming. Don’t hide the Light or smother it by expecting it to keep shining without “Love”. Each Lantern is different from the others…..but none will fullfil their function without the Light of the Lord within. HIS Light is all that matters…and it is HIS FATHER’s HAND that holds and guides the Lanterns. Only the FATHER knows the entire PLAN….and HIS WILL will be done….no doubt about it!

    Be at peace for that reason…..and keep tending the Light.

  158. Claudia Nov 19th 2013

    Don’t despair! It is evening now….but when the dark comes, the Lanterns of YHWH which were tended with love, will shine brightly in the contrast. When the technological conveniences of this world are stripped away….those who have the hearts that desire the LIGHT will seek the Lanterns in order to see. Those who have hearts that desire the SELF and what satan offers will avoid the Lanterns or try to smother them…..but they won’t have much time to accomplish their evil desire.

  159. Claudia Nov 19th 2013

    A HOLY FIRE will erupt over the entire earth during the WRATH, after the Lanterns have been dropped to the ground, and the fire within them is freed of their restrictive bonds to ignite and destroy all that is evil…….than the KINGDOM of YHWH will be established upon the earth…..mankinds last chance before the 2nd Death.

  160. Claudia Nov 19th 2013

    In other WORDS: 😉

    Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    Psalms 9:9–10 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
    Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
    Psalms 9:19–20 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight. Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.
    Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
    Psalms 9:15–16 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

  161. Andrew Nov 19th 2013

    That which is “apostolic” is available to every generation imbued with the Holy Spirit.

    It is just as available now as it was then.

    Otherwise Scriptural Christianity is impossible.

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom

  162. ValleyAnt Nov 19th 2013

    Marilyn, the Bible says, “The unfolding (revelation, unveiling, discovery, uncovering, unclothing, unpacking, showing forth, exposing, EXPLANATION) of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (Ps. 119:130). If you open the Bible, ask God to EXPLAIN (unfold) all this about the apostolic to you, then wait, He WILL begin to speak to you. It is in the waiting, looking continually, looking closer, meditation, considering that God reveals much to us. Paul said rightly to Timothy, “CONSIDER what I say, and the Lord will give you understanding IN ALL THINGS” (2Tim. 2:7). It was as Moses ‘considered’ the bush (looked closer, drew near to God) that God began to speak to him.

    Gordon, what is Pass It On Ministries? I think I’ve heard of it before.

    Robert Glenn, God truly does everything perfectly. It is of Jesus that Isaiah wrote, “The Lord God has given Me the tongue of the wise, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him who is weary” (Isa. 50:4). Amen. After Jesus had walked in His royal dignity, the people “were astonished beyond measure saying, ‘He has done ALL THINGS well’” (Mk. 7:37). If any of us lacks in perfection, we are glad that He Himself does ALL THINGS well. Amen.

    Gordon Neil, thanks for that important reminder, that we get the tree or board out of our own eye(s) first.

    Andrew Strom, you said, “Jesus is specifically asking us to pray that God’s will would start to be done on earth. So clearly at the moment it is NOT. It is only places that are actually God’s ‘Kingdom’ where His will is truly done.” Amen. I was in a situation where, when I asked God what to do, He began by responding, “The problem you are dealing with is an issue of WILL.” (Most people, looking at ‘the problem’ would never have guessed that the issue was ‘an issue of will’.) His intention was to bind WILL (works) opposed to His and then to loose His WILL (works). And He did this. So, we see that God’s will can be supplanted by the will of satan or the flesh. In the end, and over all, God’s will triumphs; but in the day to day living, this is certainly not the case. And speaking of bad things and illnesses that happen in our times, you said, “Why have we not explained this??” So many people think that God wants to hide the explanations of so many mysteries, hidden things, and undiscovered (unexplained) things ‘until we go to Heaven’; but this is not true. (Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do kids get abused? Why do people die young? Why so much injustice? Why, why, why?) God has given human beings inquisitive minds to seek in order to find. If a child is wrong for asking his parents, “Why, why, why,” then we are wrong for seeking answers from God: “If anyone lacks wisdom, LET HIM ASK of God who gives liberally to all without chiding (rebuking, finding fault), and IT WILL BE GIVEN to him.” Art Katz said that God loves men who will wrestle with Him for answers: “Call to Me, and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things (things that cannot be known outside of God revealing them) which you DO NOT know” (Jer. 33:3). God has an explanation for everything and will explain it to those who don’t take “No” for an answer. “Yes, he struggled with the Angel and PREVAILED; he wept and sought FAVOR from Him. He (God) found him (Jacob) in Bethel, and THERE He spoke to us” (Hos. 12:4). Amen. To those who keep seeking (looking), God will speak (manifest). You rightly said, “That which is ‘apostolic’ is available to every generation imbued with the Holy Spirit… Otherwise Scriptural Christianity is impossible.” That’s correct.

    AJH, well said. And well said about Barnabas. Except for Paul, the Bible doesn’t tell us about any other ascension gift apostle’s encounter with the Lord. The signs of apostles have to be re-taught in proper order in order to distinguish outward signs of an apostle, which is the category where things like ‘seeing the Lord’ are filed, and inward signs which basically are things that can only be determined (detected, discerned) by one’s spirit and not by their physical senses.

    Marilyn Crow, I like James, the Lord’s brother, and Andronicus and Junias who may have been husband and wife. Their relationship with Jesus must have been a very unique one: the Lord’s brother and husband and wife apostle team.

    “The unfolding of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (Ps. 119:130). There is something beautiful about that passage that summarizes the work of the Holy Spirit who reveals Jesus and unfolds (lays out, explains out) God’s Word and who unfolded God’s words in the very Beginning when He caused the invisible Creation, which God had spoken, to physically manifest or materialize.

  163. Marilyn Crow Nov 19th 2013

    Valley Ant, You are an encouragement to us all. Bless you brother.

  164. Marilyn Crow Nov 19th 2013

    Jesus said, to Pilate, ” My kingdom is not of this world….You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born….to bear witness to the truth…” (John 18: 36 & 37)

    Jesus` kingdom is the kingdom of truth. It is in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, a fore taste of that which is to come, & Israel will rule in that truth in the Millennium & finally in all realms of God`s great kingdom (in the New Heavens & New Earth) Christ will reign supreme for He is the truth.

  165. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    “Jesus the apostle and high priest of your calling” Heb.

    There is REALLY only One Apostle- Jesus-
    Whenever we have true apostles ( little a apostles ) is because Jesus is dwelling in men by faith –PLUS NOTHING!
    from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (Ephesians 3:15-17 NASB)
    Apostles are not made by human faithfullness, human obedience, human will power or human devotion nor human desire.

    True apostles are men who by grace and faith ALONE have put their trust in Jesus Christ alone and who by grace ALONE have Christ Jesus the ONLY TRUE apostle formed in them.
    of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, (Ephesians 3:7, 8 NASB)

    Jesus is the only true apostle- true apostles are those who BY FAITH AND GRACE ALONE have Jesus dwelling in them.

    When will the church stop this self effort, man centred, man glorifying nonsense of thinking apostles are some super saints who are a cut above everyone else.
    Where in the Bible do you read that?
    O I forgot- when THEY ARE false apostles!
    But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:12-15 NASB)

  166. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    What does a true apostle look like?
    He looks like Jesus.
    He glorifies Jesus.
    He preaches the gospel of Jesus.
    The disciples he makes look like Jesus, glorify Jesus and preach the gospel of Jesus.
    The gospel he preaches is the gospel of Jesus.
    His gospel will be that the Gentiles and the Jews can BY FAITH ALONE PLUS NOTHING- enter the inheritance of eternal life through faith Jesus Christ and the righteousness which is by faith ALONE:

    if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, (Ephesians 3:2-8 NASB)

    A true apostle will never preach a so called gospel of works or self effort salvation for inheriting eternal life. The heart of the message of a true apostle was, is and always will be sola fide, sola Scriptera and sol Deo Gloria!

  167. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    God can make an apostle in a day.
    IN A DAY He turned the impetuous, impulsive man fearing Peter into an apostle.
    IN A DAY He turned the angry, murderous, Christ hating legalist Paul Into an apostle.

    TRUE Apostles are those in whom Jesus the Apostle dwells by faith and grace alone plus nothing.

  168. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    We have to get rid of this unbiblical and bogus super star perspective of an apostle or God won’t give us more of them because we will worship them if He did.

  169. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    Forgive my multiple posts-indulge me on this I pray

    But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (Ephesians 4:7, 11-13 NASB)

    So here in this passage we see some critical things about apostles in the local church
    1. They ARE in the local church “until we all reach the unity of the faith ” – I don’t see that has happened yet so APOSTLES ARE STILL IN TH LOCAL CHURCH
    2. They are MERELY part of a local church leadership team consisting of not only apostles ( plural) but of prophets ( plural) evangelists ( also plural) …..and so on.
    While they MAY be the first among equals in a local church leadership team .

    3. Their main function is to equip the LOCAL CHURCH. They are not loner superstars – Although they are not limited to the local church – they belong to and function within the context of the local church and are sent out from a local church
    See also ( Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:1-4 NASB)
    4. They do not belong to themselves but to Jesus and He has given them AS GIFTS to the local church.
    “He GAVE some to be apostles…”
    5. Because they are given to the church ALONG WITH the other ascension gifts they should be as common and available and necessary as the other 4 ascension gifts in the church.

  170. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    I believe the modern churches paradigm of the loner superstar apostle is coming from the TRADITION of the loner superstar – one man at the top paradigm we have of a pastor.

    This one man at the top as leader paradigm for church leaderships that MOST Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches currently hold IS NOT BIBLICAL.
    It was inherited from the PREREFORMATION leadershipmpardbigm of a local priest who was the spiritual boss man of the local church during the Middle Ages from the time of Augustine.
    This ONE MAN AT THE HELM- paradigm in the church HAS NO FOUNDATION IN NEW TESTAMENT ECCESIOLOGY.
    Yes my caps mean I am SHOUTING!!!!!!!!

  171. Andrew Nov 19th 2013

    Faith alone plus nothing, eh??

    Why then are there SIX essential “foundations” (not just one) that the apostles insisted upon in every conversion? Found in Hebrews 6:1-2, these six are-
    1) Repentance, (2) Faith (3) Baptisms, (4) Laying on of hands, (5) Resurrection of the dead, and (6) Eternal judgment.

    There are SIX “foundations” – not just one.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  172. Throwing some more discussion threads on apostles into the postings…………………

    The original apostles were very gifted and called to complete the Canon of Scripture. As the prophets of the Old Testament wrote and their writings were recorded, they became part of the Canon of Holy Scripture that makes up our Holy Bible today. We have the gospels, and the letters of Paul, and the letters of Peter and various apostolic men who were gifted and called by God to produce the final revelation in Scripture of what God needed to say to humankind, until eventually the Canon of Scripture was made complete. God had expressed over a long period of time, through men in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, and He had fully expressed everything that we need as believers on which to base our spiritual lives.

    Revelation was the last book, with John receiving his final revelation. John being the longest living of the apostles and the only apostle who is reputed to have died a natural death. All the rest of them were martyred. Peter was reputed to have been crucified upside down, another one of the apostles was apparently skinned alive. They died terrible deaths. They were opposed and hated by the world.

    An apostle is not a missionary sent out by a Missionary Society to go into a foreign land where the gospel has never been preached before. That is an apostolic type of function, but to state that every missionary sent forth is an apostle is not so. There have been apostolic ministries amongst them. Missionaries are not sent forth in the way apostles are sent forth. They are sent forth usually by an organization.

    An apostle is not somebody who starts a new church. This seems to be a common teaching – that if you go out and start a new church, you can then be called the apostle of that church and claim that title.

    Actually the Bible never told us to plant churches. God told us to go out and make DISCIPLES. It is evangelism that results in disciples, who covenant together to be and function as the local expression of the Body of Christ.

    The Scripture tells us that when Saul persecuted the early believers, they scattered. They scattered everywhere. And everywhere they went they preached the gospel. They reached up as far as Antioch, and they preached to people there and people got saved. The locals came together and a local church started up. And the apostles were still sitting in Jerusalem. There was not an apostle anywhere near to start that church. They had to send a couple of them up there. Barnabas and Saul went up and began to teach. They were not even fully apostles themselves yet. Barnabas was a prophet and Saul was a teacher.

  173. Darren Sargent Nov 19th 2013

    No Apostle; no foundation.
    No foundation; no Church.
    Apostle is synonymous with Christ – the Cornerstone and Capstone. Apostles are foundational men; it is dirty deep work, often hidden, working in the ‘horizontal’, used to ‘going down’ and being laid down in the grave in the Jordan. They are all Eyewitnesses of His Resurrection for an Apostle cannot serve in his own might; it must be out of Resurrection power and the only way into that is through the Cross. They are not their own. They are slaves of Christ. You can lay no other foundation that that of Christ: repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and Eternal Judgment. If any one of these is missing the building will collapse eventually. The foundation described IS Christ. The Spirit of Prophecy is the Testimony of Jesus. We are to be the ground and pillar of truth: no ground – no pillar! We must be laid down first, face to face.

    Love to All

  174. Barry Schmidt Nov 19th 2013

    I’ll tell you all one thing that the true apostolic will bring to the church that hitherto is missing- the formation of Christ in personal EXPERIENCIAL HOLINESS!

    Last night I had a dream in it an apostle was standing in front of the congregation of believers. This is what he said,
    “God is about to bring a fresh baptism of the Spirit to the church. It is not merely a baptism unto speaking in gifts that produce vanity but it is a baptism of the fire of holiness.”
    As he spoke these words children , young people and aged people rushed forward to receive such a baptism.

    Why is it that. 35-40% of the church claims to be filled with the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues yet less than 5% of the church is walking in victory over sin’s dominion in their personal lives?

    What is wrong with this picture?
    Sin seems to have dominion in the church – ruling at will Gods people – where is the grace for holiness ?

    Faith alone IN JESUS CHRIST PLUS NOTHING -will produce this massive move of divine grace to give Gods people TRUE REPENTANCE- the power to live in personal holiness!
    We don’t need more self effort religion telling the people of God to be holy yet providing no power over sins dominion .

    We need true apostles to come preaching the Unsearchable riches of Christ to the people of God- this alone will bring a massive and universal deluge of divine grace to live in personal holiness.I read somewhere 98% of full time preachers of the gospel testify to having little or no victory over sexual lust while fully acknowledging it is sin, is against the gospel and that in the gospel their is grace for holiness.

    God send us some true apostles!!!!

  175. Barry Schmidt Nov 20th 2013

    My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you- (Galatians 4:19 NASB)
    Where is this apostolic travail for the formation of Christ in the people of God?
    Apostolic travail brings apostolic grace- without which the church will remain under sin’s dominion in their personal lives.

    We have no apostolic travail because we have no true apostles as we claim to have.

  176. Barry Schmidt Nov 20th 2013

    We are justified by faith alone plus nothing
    We will be sanctified by faith alone plus nothing.
    We will be empowered and gifted by faith alone plus nothing.
    We will be glorified by that same means.

  177. watchful Nov 20th 2013

    Psa 104:24

    O LORD, how MANIFOLD ARE THY WORKS! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    Eph 3:10

    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known BY THE CHURCH the MANIFOLD WISDOM of God,

    1Pe 4:10

    As EVERY MAN HATH RECEIVED THE GIFT, even so minister the same ONE TO ANOTHER, as good stewards of the MANIFOLD GRACE of God.

    1Cr 14:26

    How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, EVERY ONE OF YOU hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done UNTO EDIFYING.
    ……………………………………………………..

    Eph 4:7

    But UNTO EVERY ONE OF US is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Eph 4:8

    Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Eph 4:11

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    Eph 4:12

    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the EDIFYING OF THE BODY of Christ:

    Eph 4:16

    From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of EVERY PART, maketh increase of the body UNTO THE EDIFYING OF ITSELF in love.
    ………………………………………………………..

    What I was given to see in these passages is that the whole body needs to exercise their gifts in order for the body to be built up, edified. This way the body edifies, builds up….ITSELF…..as the scripture above says……………when all parts are working, not just one or five. Yes, those five gifts are needed, but every bit as much so also are all the manifold gifts to the body of Christ needed…….otherwise the result is simply that the body is not built up and doesn’t mature.

    After the foundation is laid…………the building (edifying) must begin……………and how careful we must be in how we build.

    This does not mean there is no leadership at all, what it does mean is that if the leadership are doing the will of God they will facilitate and encourage the body in building itself up. As overseers, they will exercise their own gifts along with the rest of the body, but as well give oversight and offer correction for things like deception, gross sin, etc. And of course discern and deal with wolves in sheeps clothing. Still grappling with these things, but that seems to be the understanding I have so far and hope it is edifying.

  178. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    Barry – when you say “saved by faith alone plus nothing” you are using a phrase that is not found in Scripture, and it seems you are ignoring the SIX FOUNDATIONS that the apostles always laid in every conversion.

    Not just one. But 6 foundations.

    Please tell me you agree with Heb 6:1-2.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  179. ValleyAnt Nov 20th 2013

    Gordon Neil, I took a look at Pass It On Ministries in Avon, Ohio, a ministry for the working poor it says. Amen to what you said. May God bless that ministry in every good way and with every good word just as they bless others. Amen.

    Barry Schmidt, amen. All ministers must preach the true Gospel which is for everyone. There are different types of apostles; the ‘signs of an apostle’ will apply to all, but it won’t always be apparent (just as the Twelve all knew Jesus but only three of them have writings in the Bible, and only two of them by name are recorded doing ‘the signs of apostles’ after Pentecost).

    There will be different types of apostles; among them some will be ‘primary apostles’ (meaning they are like Peter and Paul, going into fields in front of other apostles) and some ‘secondary apostles’ (like Barnabas and Apollos, they’ll have the same message but will ‘bring up the rear’), sent to different regions (neighborhoods, cities, countries, etc.), arenas (e.g. health, science, business, etc.), people groups (not just nationalities but also ‘people groups’ like goths, white supremacy groups, movie stars/actors, politicians, musicians, etc.). As a ‘primary apostle’, Paul, not the only apostle sent to the Gentiles, was able to always say that the message to the Gentiles was his. All ‘primary apostles’ will be able to say with Paul according to who they are sent to (‘secondary apostles’ will say it much less), “The dispensation of the Grace of God was given to ME for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery.” The conclusion or sum of the mystery is HOW (the Grace) to reach the people group one is sent to. “The Grace of God [is] given to [the apostle(s)] for [the specific region, arena, or people group one is sent to].” The primary ones, like Paul and Peter, James, and John (the “pillars” at Jerusalem) will be first to call the Grace ‘their gospel’ (the good news (tailored for a specific demographic) entrusted to them first); the secondary ones will operate alongside but will mention much less that the Grace is theirs.

  180. You’ve got some real wisdom there ValleyAnt – Praise the Lord – the Lord has gifted you with wisdom – I sense it through your writing – the wisdom of the Lord – and there’s more coming – bless you brother – deeper wisdom coming your way – all that you’ve suffered is producing gold in your life – God’s wisdom is being produced in you – Love you, Andrew… :-)

  181. ValleyAnt Nov 20th 2013

    Marilyn Crow, thank you. And amen. Jesus came to earth to ratify the truth, and the Holy Spirit came after Him to do the same– to ratify the truth and bear witness to God’s integrity.

    AM, there are two basic ways to approach anything: from the branches down, or from the roots up. You are approaching the issue of apostles from the branches; if you look from the roots (instead of looking at why apostles aren’t needed, discover their original function or the reason they were at first given), you’ll see things entirely differently. Before a baby is ever born, God establishes their roots: DNA, molecular structure, bones, organs, etc. He creates or makes or does things lavishly (e.g. space and the unused planets and the galaxies), but everything has a reason. God didn’t create you to die, but you might. Everything He creates is originally meant to last forever though the Fall distorted things. But in Christ, He began to accomplish the original purpose: He used an imperfect method in the OT where things came to an end to prepare us for the perfect that was coming: “You have heard it said… but I tell you…” Then when Jesus came, everything He spoke and established is perfect (a different Law or dispensation) and so must last forever. This “but I tell you” is the perfect and lasts forever while that “You have heard it said” was imperfect and was done away with. If you can, read Heb. 1:1-2 and ask God to tell you what He means the as concerns things founded in the OT and things founded by Jesus in the NT: “He has spoken” once and for all in Christ. If there are two dispensations and the 2nd one is superior to the 1st one, how can both be subtracted from if one is superior? Subtraction from both would make both the same, because the 2nd was given to complete the 1st and, being an addition, cannot be subtracted from. The ministries Jesus gave are permanent, and His example is final, BECAUSE He came to establish permanent things in contrast with the temporary things from the old covenant: Heb. 1:1-2. Both dispensations are different because one is imperfect (unfinished, in part, not whole or finished) and one IS perfect (whole, with nothing lacking: “It is finished (completed, perfect, whole)”).

    Darren, amen. And there is no other foundation but Christ. “Unless the Lord builds (present tense) the house, they labor in vain who build it” (Ps. 127:1). People indeed build without the Lord, but their building (effort) is in vain and won’t last.

    Barry Schmidt, amen. You said many good things. The fear of the Lord will again be established as the foundation of drawing near to and knowing God. Those who don’t fear Him steal His glory and give Him a bad name; but He will be glorified by those who fear Him, because though spiritual gifts will operate even among the sinful, the fear of God (obedience) always comes before God Himself shows forth: “By those who come near Me I MUST be regarded as holy; and before all the people I MUST be glorified” (Lev. 10:3).

    AJH, thanks, and God bless you too. Job said, “When He has tested me, I will come forth as gold.” I want to be able to say what he said right after that: “My foot held fast to His steps; I have kept His way and not turned aside.” (Job 23:10-11.) There’s a Vineyard song about God lighting the fire again in us. A part of it sings, “I am here to buy gold refined in the fire.” I pray that God will find more who will go to Him not just to get the things that are free but also to buy gold that they can use to bless others. I pray that He will increase in you a psalmist anointing and use your worship to bless others! Amen. Now we’re even, eh? Lol.

  182. OK then we’re even… :-)

  183. SandStorm Nov 20th 2013

    Sorry Andrew Strom, but you are not the leader you believe you are. No leader has such immaturity as you have shown.

    Such sarcastic comments such as the following are why I am no longer following this site. Don’t know why I showed up here today …

    “Nice try” (this is so sarcastic – Is sarcasm of the Lord?)

    “Bye then, LightningStorm. Thankyou for informing us of your departure.” (Also sarcasm?)

  184. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    Neither of them are sarcasm. They are literally meant.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  185. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    But I do enjoy your sense of humour.

  186. Father, in Jesus Name, I want to pray for Barry and also for his Local Congregation… :-)

    I have in my heart a love for Barry Lord and a desire that he be all that You have for him in his Local Congregation and beyond…

    I have a desire for Barry to be released to preach the Gospel – a full release – please release brother Barry Lord to preach the Gospel – a full release…

    Raise him up Lord to make You known…

    In his Local Congregation and beyond – to make You known…

    Increase Lord his knowledge of You…

    Take him deeper Lord…

    Saturate him with Yourself…

    Open doors for him to tell of and demonstrate You to others – in his town and in his district and beyond…

    Let a door be opened in his Local Congregation for him to have influence in the spread of the Gospel…

    Let him be blessed…

    Let him be blessed…

    And let him come to know You more – always deeper and deeper into You…

    And he will – he will go deeper and deeper into You…

    No arguing, just sharing – those he comes in contact with will sense his genuine heart towards them – not an argumentative spirit but his genuine heart towards them and they would be drawn to listen…

    You are an Evangelist Barry – you may be other things but the Lord has shown me that you are an Evangelist and I want to pray that your Local Congregation would release you into this gifting and let you run in it – if this is of the Lord let them release Barry into this gifting Lord – fully – and let him run in it…

    Run in it…

    And be successful…

    Give him keys and strategies to know how and when to reach out and to fulfil what you’ve given him to do…

    Provide for his family an acceptance of Your calling on his life to “make room” for him to fulfil his calling…

    Thank You Jesus…

    Be released Barry and be blessed…

    Speak the truth with boldness but with sincerity and gentleness…

    Love you brother,

    Andrew

    Also I pray that this release would also release your Local Congregation into Evangelism – that they would share in and “catch” your Anointing as you move in this area…

    Love you brother – I see this coming to pass… :-)

    Andrew

  187. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2013

    Valley Ant,

    You said some good things, but did you realise that this part is moving into `Dominionistic thinking?`

    Quote, `(Apostles) sent to different regions (neighborhoods, cities, countries, etc.), arenas (e.g. health, science, business, etc.), …`

    You may not be aware of Wagner & others & their false teachings of the `7 mountains,` which is trying to get people to `partner – economically – business, health, science, education etc) with the world`s thinking that `together we can change the world.`

    Marilyn C.

  188. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    But together we can change the world!!

  189. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2013

    Andrew, what do you mean by that, brother, & scriptures?

  190. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    Are you saying that the Body of Christ – working together – is not supposed to change the world??

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  191. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2013

    Thank you Andrew for your reply. Yes that is exactly what I mean. We are not supposed to change the world or even able to do so. God is going to judge it & its Final Gentile Global Government as we know at Armageddon.

    However Christians down through the centuries have sought to alleviate human suffering, teach, & guide people in all manner of areas, as this is the out working of Christ`s life within, as you know. Helping others however does not address the need for God to bring justice upon the rebellious, which is why He will pour out His wrath in the tribulation. (Deut. 32: 43 Isa. 14: 24 – 27 Rev. 16: 14)

  192. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    The Book of Acts shows the church shaking the nations and cities of their time.

    You do not feel the church is supposed to do this – using spiritual truth??

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  193. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2013

    Yes I agree Andrew that the Body of Christ as shown in the book of Acts shook the nations & cities beliefs of their time. Paul & Silas were accused ……

    `These men who have upset the world have come here … they act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus.` (Acts 17: 6 & 7)

    And yes I believe the Body of Christ will continue to stir up people for saying that Jesus is Lord, that is why so many Christians are being killed in Africa & the Middle East at this time. it has not got to that as yet in the West but it will. Remember Paul & many of the other disciples were martyred. They didn`t change the world but challenged its beliefs.

    Satan is still the` Prince of the Power of the air` (Eph. 2: 2) & `we know …the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.` (1 John 5: 19)

    Christians are not called of God to change the world, but to challenge its beliefs & disciple & help others.

    I think a clarification of words is where we are at.

    Marilyn C.

  194. watchful Nov 20th 2013

    Amen Marilyn, well said. We are not appointed to change the world, we are appointed to be persecuted by it, and realizing this will help us to gird up for it, because it is coming soon to the western nations that have been culturally Christian, and actually has already begun in small ways.

  195. Barry Schmidt Nov 20th 2013

    What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “A braham believed G od, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:1-5 NASB)

    Abraham wasn’t saved (justified and credited with righteousness until he believed what God said .
    Abraham had performed many good works before this moment. He had believed God for many things before this moment. Abraham had obeyed God in many ways and at many times in His life until this moment when God justified him.

    But Abraham wasn’t justified (wasn’t saved) by ANY OF THESE WORKS OR ACTS . It says here that it wasn’t until Abraham BELIEVED WHAT GOD SAID that Abraham was justified.
    Faith IN WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT JESUS PLUS NOTHING EQUALS SALVATION FROM FIRST TO LAST.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “B ut the righteous man shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16, 17 NASB)

  196. Barry Schmidt Nov 20th 2013

    True apostles are men of faith. Not men of faith plus formulas.
    False apostles in Paul’s day were Judaizers – men who claimed to have faith in Jesus but that faith was NOT ENOUGH- they taught that you also had to keep God’s law to be saved.

    This was what made them False Apostles- deceitful workmen and messengers of Satan.
    Satan is always about faith plus formulas for salvation.
    So are his messengers.
    Beware of faith plus formulas friends.

  197. Claudia Nov 20th 2013

    Amen, Marilyn Crow.

    There are two sides to chose from. YHWH via HIS Son or satan via the world and via rejecting Yeshua’s Sacrifice.

    Yeshua saves the world when HE returns as KING OF KINGS. HE has always known that man of this world would not. HE just wants us to chose our sides, and if we chose HIS we allow HIS Light to shine through us affecting our surroundings and contacts…and we endure to the end.

    To take CHRIST’s Glorious Task and Commission upon ourselves is not humble. We are HIS followers, not HIS leader. We will not save the world…..HE does when HE returns at the WRATH. We are just to be a beacon of HIM….and if called to do so….die for HIM.

    To become anxious by assuming a Task that only Christ can accomplish will squelsh the Holy Spirit within. I am somewhat reminded of the transition that satan took upon himself, wanting to assume the task of being the leader….and who now leads this world. Satan could not rest in YHWH’s Will and wait for YHWH’s timing. He stepped out and influenced many….leading them to their fall.

    We are here to make a choice in the process of separating the tares out. By our choice we each individually, hopefully, asist others in making the same choice….so that all who are chosen will be prepared to meet their KING.

    There is only one WORD, and it is not new…..and all mysteries concerning this WORD will be revealed when Yeshua returns as KING OF KINGS.

    The “apostles” of today are not the same as the original ones. Today apostleship is merely a worthy structured job duty that facilitates the church body according to the gifts therein…and to organize structures that facilitate the harmonious working together of a defined body of humans. YHWH gives these gifts to each person in order to facilitate the organization.

    The FIRE has already been lite. Trust HIM.

  198. Barry Schmidt Nov 20th 2013

    “Apostles are ACCESSIBLE in every age.” Never was there a more true statement than that!
    BUT We have to BELIEVE to access the true apostolic.
    EVERYTHING that comes from God to us CAN ONKY BE ACCESSED BY FAITH PLUS NOTHING!

    Smith Wigglesworth had it right, “God will run roughshod over ten thousand obedient and hungry men to get to one man who is believing him.”

    Faith is the victory !
    Where are those who are BELIEVING God for what the church needs in this hour?

  199. There is ONE and ONLY requirement for initial salvation/justification and that is “believe”

    believe what?

    believe in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and all of what God said, of Who He is.

    So we believe in Jesus plus nothing for our initial salvation/justification.

    It cost us nothing, it cost Him everything.

    We had nothing to do (other than believe) because there is nothing we can do, He paid it all, He did it all, it is finished.

    I will say it again, it is Jesus plus nothing, for our initial salvation/justification.

    Now after initial salvation, sanctification should take place, Rom 6-8 covers this well, and of course all of the epistles are profitable in this. This WILL BE followed by glorification (Rom 8;30)

    Phase 1) Initial salvation/justification (We had nothing “to do”)

    Phase 2) Sanctification (Rom 6-8 etc)

    Phase 3) Glorification (We will have nothing “to do”)

    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Note: He also justified. He also glorified.

    It is in sanctification where we have “to do” But it is ONLY what is done in the spirit that will count.

    Once again it is only “believe” for initial salvation/justification.

    Believe

    G4100

    πιστεύω

    pisteuō

    pist-yoo’-o

    From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): – believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

    Blessings.

  200. I feel very sorry for those individuals who have left these discussion threads for whatever reason. These threads are not about THEM which is what they are actually displaying. It is about a topic being posted for discussion with many types of individuals at various stages of personal spiritual growth, residing in different geographical locations and of many cultural diversities, sharing their views in safety. The Jews in the Synagogue argued and debated issues all the time -they did not always agree -part of the value of debates is disagreeing, but much learning takes place along the way, and often people’s world view get shaken now and then, which is needful. We have to stay objective in our contributions and do our own research on the issues at hand.

    Andrew S is the coordinator and we need to respect that and sometimes he has to intervene or move the discussion into a healthier direction if need be. We are there to encourage and build each other up -we should always do it in LOVE and if we don’t always agree God will show us otherwise anyway until we all come to a knowledge of the Truth. Amen and bless you all.

  201. Andrew Nov 20th 2013

    Ken-
    Why then are there SIX essential “foundations” (not just one) that the apostles insisted upon in every conversion? Found in Hebrews 6:1-2, these six are-
    1) Repentance, (2) Faith (3) Baptisms, (4) Laying on of hands, (5) Resurrection of the dead, and (6) Eternal judgment.

    If you look right through the Book of Acts – at the conversions detailed there – you see them using these FOUNDATIONS in converting people. Over and over.

    There are SIX “foundations” – not just one. Not just “faith”.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  202. Gordon Neil Nov 20th 2013

    I have a e-mail that is called eagles.rest BUT it does refer to me resting on me/our laurels (our success; our own glory; our own salvation). We are saved by Jesus Christ’s salvation, he was crucified, died and arose and now sits at the right hand of the Power. Anyone that wants salvation follows Jesus Christ; that translates into work by His faith in us, we received by His Spirit and by works in the Spirit, the Romans 8 Church, we move, work, get the board out of our own eye first, and grow form Babe to Mature, moving from glory to glory. More to Come …my dear wife and friend is calling! There is suffrage (an election by God)!

    I speak in the language of the Spirit of the One Church.

  203. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. (John 16:8-11 NASB)

    Sin, Righteousness & Judgement… :-)

    Very similar to the pattern shown in Hebrews 6:1-2… :-)

    Sin (because they do not believe in Me) = Repentance from dead works – obedience in water baptism symbolizes this death to “self effort” and clinging to Christ alone for…

    Righteousness (because I go to the Father) = the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and with Fire so we look like and act like – model – Jesus to the watching world…

    Judgement (because the ruler of this world has been judged) = authority for Jesus as “the Ruler of the kings of the earth” (Revelation 1:5b NASB) to give gifts to men – authority to make a difference in this world propagated through the laying on of hands – replication of disciples all over the world…

    Repentance is given to us by God (Acts 11:18 & 2 Timothy 2:25) – enabling us to “let go” of our “dead works” – our “self effort” – so that we can look to Jesus in faith (which is also given to us by God – Ephesians 2:8-9) as our Passover, our Righteousness… :-)

    These two passages – John 16:8-11 & Hebrews 6:1-2 – give us our commission in a “nutshell”… :-)

  204. ValleyAnt Nov 20th 2013

    I’m on my phone now so I just want to respond to Marilyn Crow, Watchful, and Claudia (all mistakes are courtesy of auto-correct):

    Marilyn, regarding the teaching about ‘seven spheres’, etc., supposedly assigned to apostles, wisdom must be exercised. God acknowledges at least three kinds of ‘gods’ besides Himself: 1. those we create (in our hearts or outside of us, like wooden idols or money, etc.), 2. celestial beings (fallen angels, etc.), and 3. human beings (“I have said, ‘You are gods'”); yet God says He is the only God. Which is it? It’s both. God said, “From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit” (Jer. 6:13). But just because ministers are false and teach out of bad motives, does it mean that truth can’t be found in their ill-motivated words? Maybe Jesus answers it best: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach” (Mt. 23:2-3). If ministers say, “We are special. Look at all our special privileges”, it is wise not to turn away everything they say because they turn you off; just as God sends Christians into all areas (business, health, science, etc.) to reach people, so He sends apostles and other ministers. (First speaks of reason not necessarily chronological time. God had a reason for sending Paul ‘first’ to the Gentiles though Peter was chronologically sent first to them.) Those so-called apostles who love praise take truths and tailor them only for themselves; don’t throw out the truths just because those who promote them make the truths exclusive to themselves. By the way, ‘seven spheres’ is nonsense (God’s will can’t be bottled or confined to formulas). Apostles and the Church are sent into ALL the world; that includes ALL ‘spheres’ (these pretenders to apostleship didn’t even mention the world of the occult along with other ‘spheres’) not just seven. If no one else bears witness to even genuine apostles, two entities always RECOGNIZE a true apostolic call in an individual: God (and His angels, etc.) and satan (and his own).

    Watchful, we are appointed to both suffer and to triumph. It isn’t one or the other; it’s both at the same time: “See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the Lord rises upon you and his glory appears over you” (Isa. 60:2). The enemy and the world hate light, so Christians must be persecuted when they carry Light; but victory will be theirs in the midst of the suffering.

    Claudia, false leaders don’t cancel out true leaders, and false apostles don’t negate the existence of true ones. Apostleship is not just a job that facilitates Christians who don’t want to grow up; it is immensely more than we’ve been taught in churches. It isn’t about vertical leadership (men who want to be over others and be special in the eyes of others) but about horizontal leadership (ministers who go out in front of others, often so they can clear a path so others can follow safely and not have to do the hard work they themselves had to do).

    In America, the occult is one of the ‘Goliaths’ that brags about its dominion. It’s all over the movies and TV and is eclipsing, but Americans are too smart to believe it really exists. How convenient. But there is only one thing I like about the occult: as it manifests more and more and begins to show the problem it really causes, it’ll be one of the main proofs of the need for the apostolic (and prophetic) ministry. Without apostolic (and prophetic) ministry, the occult can easily destroy everything in its path, if the Lord doesn’t intervene– eat up and swallow things right down. (It would be nice to see how much recognition those who claim apostleship have in satan’s kingdom in the place they live and minister. In Acts, the apostolic ministry was continually encountering and dealing with the occult. True evangelists are able to push back these powers, but where is this among the so-called apostles today.) The occult is where satan gets to show off his glory and the fact he was indeed ‘born’ in Heaven and ‘still has it’ (his regal nobility); it’s where his seriousness about his work and leadership wisdom shows so brilliantly. A world like the occult will prove that we need a type of ministry that will FIGHT, will have supernatural stamina (“I labored more… yet not I but the Grace of God that was with me”), and won’t stop or give up till it is finally completely over: “They will RUN and not grow weary… My Father has been working until now, and I TOO am working”. Amen. The apostolic ministry is made to labor endlessly, to fight and not give up, and to operate by revelation, wisdom to know how to proceed, and great faith. This is very bad news for the enemy. In America, we choose to disbelieve in the occult, because it’s easier to deny it than to try to face it. The occult world will face down most everything and prove the need for ‘more than we currently have’.

    Jehu went to Jezebel who was an occultist and a fighter who had authority, and she was fond of stomping out almost anyone she wanted to. The answer for her was one who was even more of a fighter and who had more authority available to him: Jehu who symbolizes the apostolic ministry. Genuine apostles are able to say about the arena to which they are called, “[God] teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze” and “Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to FIGHT” (Ps. 18:34, NKJV & 144:1, KJV). Spiritually, a bow is a long-range weapon and can reach where the sword can’t; the strength or power of a shot from a bow is dependent on the strength of the string: a rope string isn’t as strong as a string, and a steel string isn’t as strong as a bronze string. Stringing and shooting an arrow from a bronze-stringed bow isn’t at all easy (we see this type of thing in the story of Odysseus), but when it’s done, it sends an arrow very fast and very far. Let’s make room for God’s wisdom and will.

  205. Gordon Neil Nov 20th 2013

    Correction re: above …
    I have a e-mail that is called eagles.rest BUT it does NOT refer to me resting on my (our) laurels (our success; our own glory; our own salvation).

    I am a servant around my house, so when duty calls I respond BUT I have never ever made wine from water. Not yet….BUT I think about how loving Jesus was to his mother, a mother that obeyed God. All things are possible in Christ Jesus.

    LEADERSHIP: us army ….At Ft. Benning, GA the old infantry school for officers were given a sign ….they wore the a “Follow Me” patch on their uniforms. Oh, it was a grand times of sorts. The Army had a great Leaders Manual. The Leaders were to lead, watch over their men as the could, in combat ..leading the way and back in garrison. The ‘Follow Me’ officer many times would wait until all of his men were fed and equipped for all occasion at hand. They trained intensely led by combat skilled veterans. It was an awesome thing to witness the fight, the commands obeyed.

    We follow Jesus. We are to be trained in the skills of Spiritual War Combat ……..preaching and teaching with evidence of Power by the Leadership Manual …the Doctrine of God. There is no other Way than to know the Truth by God’s Spirit. There are seven (7) Spirits before the Throne of God …Isaiah 11 the fear of the Lord. v3 Jesus delights in the Fear of The Power. God is Love.

    I pray that you in the service of God are not outwitted and that we do not outwit ourselves. We learn from our troubles as we move Forward March.

  206. AM – thank you, your last comment reminded me of Beit Midrash a explanation of which may be found here: http://howardmorganministries.org/beitmidrash.html the Hebrew way of discussing the things of God.

    *******
    A major problem with any discussion is whether we (as individuals) approach this with a Greek or Hebrew mindset.

    The Greek mindset believes that knowledge is power, so one should study theology and doctrine to enable one to reason with human intellect. One seeks to promote self. The ‘greek’ may also look at God as outside of time and space – only spiritual.

    The Hebrew mindset says we may not understand God, but we will love, worship and obey Him, learning to walk in His favour. Here, the focus is on Almighty God. The Hebrew sees God as working in the physical as well as the spiritual.

    We need to thank our Heavenly Father that He is restoring the Hebrew mindset to many, Jesus was born a Jew, sent as the Hebrew Messiah, we need His mind and will, not our own which is tainted by the ‘greek’.

    Maybe, just maybe, once we learn to walk in the trust and faith of Almighty God, as Jesus disciples did, (rather than try to analyse what is wrong) we will see more of His works through us – His signs and wonders.

    Lightning Storm is correct – many today by analysing and using logic, reduce God to something we can understand – rather than asking Him to renew our mind, will and emotions, with His, – so that we might begin to comprehend who He really is.

    So that He might be able to finally trust us with His power, knowing that we are always humbled in His presence, and will always give the glory back to Him.

    In His love,
    Roger

  207. Averyl Nov 21st 2013

    Why are we supposed to be looking for apostles anyway?

  208. Averyl – the other night we were invited to a celebration with a Christian couple we know, both disabled, one severely, yet they have just been approved to foster children.

    Of the others there, one couple have spent time in Uganda, and elsewhere, with a missionary organisation. If one took their jobs, and applied a scriptural description, they would come under ‘administrations’ or maybe ‘helpers’.

    We don’t often hear about those do we..? Yet to me they are very much servants in Christ Jesus – just getting on with getting on about His daily work, which includes sharing His Gospel with those that He brings before them. How many seeds sown I wonder..? or maybe watered..? maybe they only plough at times.. :-)

  209. Richard Nov 21st 2013

    Avery we are looking for real apostles because they are evangelists too. Book of Acts revival type evangelists. Because God will use the ministry of a genuine apostle for revival.

  210. Averyl Nov 21st 2013

    Richard, – have you found any yet?

  211. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2013

    Valley Ant,

    You have misunderstood me (& Watchful & Claudia) I do believe in Apostles having been taught of them. The Lord gives them clarity of His word to give to the Body of Christ. This truth builds up the Body along with all the other giftings.

    Now with the restoring of Apostles & Prophets in recognition & reception by the Body of Christ, there is also the false Apostles, (etc) who are bringing in `destructive heresies. `

    Here is an except from Wagner`s book, `Dominion! How Kingdom action can change the world.`

    ” Since right now we all find ourselves on earth & not yet in heaven, only by following certain earthly rules can we implement this social transformation. Human society is regulated by 7 supreme moulders of culture – namely, religion, family, government, arts & entertainment, media, business & education. It should be obvious to anyone that for society as a whole to change, each one of these moulders of culture needs to be led or `dominated,` by persons of goodwill, whether Christians or non-Christians.”

    Perhaps if someone had thought of that `idea,` in Paul`s time, the Apostle Paul (great scholar) could have been the leader of education, the Apostle Matthew, (tax collector) the leader of business, & Luke, (the Physician) the leader of health, etc. Then the world would have been `changed?` I think not. How vain, proud & stupid is man to believe such a lie.

    Wagner`s `culture ….dominated by persons of goodwill whether Christian or non Christian,` will lead to the benevolent lamb like false prophet & the Anti-Christ speaking `Peace & Safety,` for all
    They should fit his criteria well.

    If you want to look more on how to discern this false teaching, then check out Discernment Ministries. They have been exposing this for many years & have good biblical teaching.

    http://www.discernment-ministries.org/articles.html

    Marilyn C.

  212. I was sitting here – working from home – this afternoon – and I sensed that the Lord was waiting – waiting for unity among His Apostles – unity – a coming “underneath” His Plan – not competing with each other – or wanting to have “the last word” or be “better”, i.e. not be like the Gentiles who lord it over even each other as leaders – but come into alignment with His will – and I sensed a “hush” (as I listened to that song that I posted above) – that He was ready to act once we – His Apostles on earth – came into unity…

    He knows who we are – there are some who contribute to this blog who are called to be Apostles – although you may not have been commissioned yet – and you know who you are even as you read this you will know – you don’t have to post it but I encourage you to come into agreement with Lord – He wants to bring one last “huge” harvest before He comes again – let’s not debate how huge – but it will be huge – it has been seen by Prophets from of old…

    You know this as you read this – just agree – just agree with the Lord that He wants to bring this harvest and sacrifice yourself to be a part of it – coming “underneath” in whatever way possible to make that a reality in our generation – He is ready – He is waiting – He is “hushed” – He is waiting for our response – will we in unity say, “Yes Lord”? – if we do – His representatives on earth to whom He has given authority – then He will release it upon this earth…

    Are we willing to come into alignment with Him and in unity – putting aside any “personal” differences – say, “Yes Lord”?

    You know who you are – will you step forward and say, “Yes Lord”?

  213. ValleyAnt Nov 21st 2013

    Marilyn Crow, an addendum: dominion theory or whatever they call it is false. While Jesus will indeed put all things under His feet and glorify Himself in the Church, no dominion is coming by might or power or human will. Glory-seeking, prideful men and women in the pulpits preach a defiled message and make good things evil. In America, men are at a complete loss if we don’t feel powerful in some thing (perform, perform, perform; but there is no performance in Christ and therefore no condemnation in Him); we then take this evil attitude into the pulpit and start preaching things that basically say, “You can DO it!” So, we preach dominionism, prosperity, name it and claim it, etc. If you step back and look at it, it basically all revolves around “We (men) are ABLE.” This gets all the way in God’s way. God will have dominion His way, not ours. If we men were really doing things right like we would love everyone to believe, God would be receiving lots of honors instead of us taking the honors for ourselves. Jesus said to God, “Glorify YOUR Name.” God then RESPONDED to Him, “I have glorified it and will glorify it again.” Amen. (Jn. 12:28.)

    Gordon Neil, amen. It is fantastic to see order in anything, leaders leading and those who will follow following. The fivefold Ministry is to train Saints “for the WORK” of the ministry. I have found that Christians who don’t work don’t grow in Christ, therefore, most Christians today don’t grow. I know a church where the Christians are in preschool spiritually; much of the blame falls on their childish self-centeredness– the Peter Pan syndrome of Never Land where Christians refuse to grow up. They are completely unprepared for any satanic assignment or attack on them. Jesus said, “While it is day, WE must do the works of Him who sent Me; night is coming when no one can work” (Jn. 9:4). Everyone must work. As for those who say there is no longer any need for leaders, they will have to answer for their stiff-necked refusal to follow the natural and spiritual order of things– that God loves when people lead and when people will humbly be led: “When the leaders in Israel lead, when the people willingly offer themselves, bless the LORD” (Judges 5:2). Amen.

    Richard, yes, the Lord will ignite revival here and there through many people, the apostolic being one means.

    Averyl, are you reveling in unbelief? I have met apostles; perhaps you would like to ask me about them. What is it that you believe about apostles, and what is it that you don’t believe. I have met angels also, and I can explain some of that to you if you would like. Is this also impossible if you have not met them yourself. These are honest questions for you to answer. Even in the Godhead, as an example for us, there is an order. I would like to know what you really believe about the very first of God’s works: authority (leadership).

    AJH, I used to sing that worship song at the Vineyard all the time. It’s a beautiful song. Here’s one that isn’t a worship song, per se, but has a very powerful and true message which is still to come: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuuLBPOYcI8. Every solution (salvation) is found in “the Name of Jesus”. Amen. This song reminds me of intercession– that God’s Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as in Heaven.

    “If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin” (1Jn. 1:7). The light is the TRUTH. ‘Fellows’ together in a ‘ship’ can get along, but when Christians want to argue and debate rather than fellowship, it’s simply because we aren’t all fellows– we aren’t all brethren. Prayer, worship, and agreement come before argument, debate, and prideful unbelief. America, what a great nation, made great in its eyes by its pride and unbelief and false independence; but it fell long ago and is fallen now and will fall, and God will in time rectify what is out of order and will show things as they really are.

  214. Beautiful song ValleyAnt – I’d heard that once before but awesome to listen to it again, Love you brother… :-)

  215. ValleyAnt Nov 21st 2013

    Marilyn, I was addressing what you said about dominionism. I just posted my last comment before I saw your latest comment as well as AJH’s. The last comment I saw was Averyl’s asking Richard if he has met any apostles. We’ve heard that bank tellers and the like are trained to know false bills by long training on knowing true bills. As we come to know the true, we need less time studying the false. When we’ve seen the true enough time, then even the title of Wagner’s book makes it false. His title: ‘How Kingdom Action Can Change the World’. Kingdom action will never change the world; God will. ‘Kingdom action’ in Wagner’s title implies (means) ‘the work and effort of Christians’. This will never be. Someone gave me Bill Johnson’s book about Heaven coming to earth. I don’t like to waste my time, so I read the back, and there in one innocent sentence, Johnson pulled off the mask on the falsity of the book. The sentence said that everyone (I’m assuming he means every Christian, but compromise can go a long way) can WALK in miracles. My spirit immediately found issue with this, and when I asked the Lord why, He reminded me of 1Cor. 12:28-29 which says (or implies very strongly) that not everyone is called to WALK in miracles though everyone might DO them at some point. Here are some things Wagner writes in what you pasted that show blatant error as we learn to scrutinize the bill’ and discern whether it is a ‘real bill’ or just a ‘bill of goods’:

    1. “implement social transformation”. Really. We are to be transformed first before we go ‘laying hands on others’ but rarely are transformed, so right there, I’d say the HEART of the book is already dead (though this doesn’t mean there are no truths to glean in it).

    2. He talks about the ‘seven spheres’ being ‘led’ by “persons of goodwill”. Now, this is where we begin encountering problems. It is indeed true that in every realm or region or territory or neighborhood and even over each home, the reign of God or satan over each place is indeed determined by the leadership and/or the atmosphere of the place: e.g. if you go to a grocery store that is owned by a Christian who follows the Lord and sanctifies it or/and managed by Christians who follow the Lord and sanctify the place, then the Lord will have rulership there. And if you go to a grocery store across the street from it where the Lord is not Lord over it, the enemy will fill in that absence. I’ve heard and read some of what people like Wagner write. The problem is that there are truths that they have learned, but the HEART isn’t right and so defiles the truths. Always remember that Paul said, “Knowledge puffs up, but Love edifies” (1Cor. 8:1). Many ministers do learn from the Lord; they abandon Him, however, and run with the knowledge they learned. People are attracted to knowledge of various kinds: gossip, technology, news, etc. Knowledge, especially new knowledge, can gain a following and fame. Again, if the HEART is wrong, it doesn’t mean the knowledge is wrong too. I’ll look at that link you posted.

  216. ValleyAnt Nov 21st 2013

    AJH, the Lord has been speaking to me about unity, agreement, and ‘brethrenship’ from yesterday. Yesterday, He gave me 1Jn. 1:7 specifically, talking about unity: “If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” FELLOWship. When I looked up that word in the dictionary, it turned up much more than getting together in church or in homes. Some definitions and synonyms of ‘fellowship':

    1. the condition or relation of being a fellow…
    2. friendly relationship; companionship: the fellowship of father and son.
    3. community of interest, feeling, etc.
    4. communion…
    6. an association of persons having similar tastes, interests, etc.
    7. a company, guild, or corporation.

    Synonyms:
    Comradeship, camaraderie, friendship, society, intimacy; acquaintance (cognizance), amity (agreement)… communion…companionship, company… conviviality, familiarity… league, order… togetherness. (www.dictionary.com.)

    Those who walk after the Lord are all called to walk together; but there will be among them people who have similar callings and histories, etc. These will make up groups within groups and will have more intimate fellowship, because they are comrades, acquaintances, or like-minded brethren. Today, according to a prophetic word from ’07, I was able to see who was not my [likeminded] brethren and who is. Before I saw your post, I posted this in the post right under yours– the difference between fellows (brethren) and certain Christians and that brethren (those who want to go all the way with God) need to get together and fellowship in prayer, worship, and agreement. The Lord is certainly telling me, according to that word from ’07, “Do not associate with those who are not your brethren… I will show you who is your brother, who is your sister, who is your friend.”

  217. ValleyAnt Nov 21st 2013

    Marilyn Crow, I took a look at this article: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/arise.html. I only read as far as the bolded part at the top and know the basic summary enough not to go any farther. We all must diligently scrutinize and discern things and read and such. I didn’t understand why people read so many articles and books about the false for a long time, but I am beginning to understand now. I tend to get the overall picture and then base things on that and only follow the details if someone brings them to my attention. Instead of going from the branches of the tree downward to reach a conclusion (branches signify the details), I go from the roots up (the roots are the heart of the matter). Let me explain a little, because each one of us should learn to discern both from the branches down (using details and objective things) as well as from the roots up (the heart of the matter and subjective and spiritual things):

    I went to a church once, and on my first day there, I ‘perceived’ that something wasn’t right about four people in the church; they just stood out… and they perceived that I perceived this. Long story short, when I asked the Lord, He revealed that they were occultist plants in the church (these are assigned to churches, some churches more than others). I told the ministers, and the Lord confirmed it to them. These plants had been in the church fifteen years undetected. If I had gone the way of branches down (details), I would not have detected them, because I would see no reason (the heart) to scrutinize them. I recently talked to a guy at church about several people. The guy began to talk about details (what he saw objectively), but I told him what I perceived (which turned out to be true). I tend to see things in an overview or overall way in order to move quickly to the next thing: that means that I don’t usually need to look in a person’s journal to know the type of person they are; rather, the Lord tends to reveal a person’s heart (or the heart of a matter) to me so I can then more clearly see upward toward the branches. When you know where a person is coming from or what is behind a situation (like word of knowledge), then the rest of whatever the person is or whatever happens in the situation makes sense to you even before it happens.

    Here’s an example of this; below, I’ve pasted the very opening part of Wagner’s speech at the above link:

    “Pastors announce what the spirit is saying to their church, but apostles announce what the spirit is saying to churches in general. So, I want to get to one thing that I feel the spirit is saying to the churches, but first of all [crowd laughter and cheers] I see you’re ready for this. This is going to be great.

    [warm up joke about whether computers are masculine or feminine]”

    Wagner said that pastors announce this and apostles announce that. As soon as the crowd is recorded to have laughed and CHEERED, I already know that the Holy Spirit is not in it. So, thank God, I don’t have to read too long or look too long when it comes to this kind of thing. A man’s character is always showing; we just have to learn how to see it. Jesus said. “By their fruits (character, inner spirit man, motivations) you will RECOGNIZE them.” Someone might say, “Well, the crowd just laughed and cheered. So what?” But the ‘what’ is whether it’s the right setting to laugh and cheer and the minister’s response to their laughter and cheering. As we see, Wagner responded by saying, “… This is going to be great.” That’s a dead giveaway that ‘the Lord is not there’. But we all should seek to learn to discern differently and in different ways. I don’t like to waste time reading about ministers who glorify themselves and not the Lord (unless the Lord, for some reason, tells me to), looking at those who want to be looked at, listening to those who want an audience. But since a minister can be right in heart but wrong in delivery or doctrine (like Apollos) and a minister can be wrong in heart but right in delivery (like Judas Iscariot), I hope that we all can separate the subjective (the heart or root) from the objective (the delivery, what is perceived with the five senses on the outside) and be able to judge things well.

  218. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2013

    Valley Ant,

    So glad we stand together against this great error.

    Bless you, brother, Marilyn C.

  219. Andrew Nov 21st 2013

    Marilyn – you must know by now that myself and everyone on this site stands against all this kind of NAR nonsense.

    But I do believe in the “real thing” quite apart from that

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  220. ValleyAnt Nov 21st 2013

    Marilyn, we definitely stand together against such a gigantic, man-centered error. If I didn’t stand against it for God’s sake, I’d stand against it simply because I naturally dislike anything that claims to be one thing but is the very opposite. Even sinners know horse crap when they see it; it’s the religious spirit (into which so many of us Christians are at least at first born) that prevents Christians from disassociating themselves from things that don’t agree with God’s clear Word and the truth. Bless you too.

  221. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2013

    Glad you do also Andrew. One day we`ll all know each other in glory, oh wondrous day. Till then we encourage each other & all the more as we see the day approaching.

    Marilyn C.

  222. watchful Nov 21st 2013

    {{ Till then we encourage each other & all the more as we see the day approaching. }}

    Amen, Marilyn.