We know that there have been extremes preached on every side of this issue. So it is with some trepidation that I open this topic up for discussion. Let me lay out a few of my own thoughts, and see if you agree…

Firstly, we know that some ‘Hebrew Roots’ people proclaim that
the New Covenant is simply a “continuation” of the Old. This is
absolutely NOT the case. We in the New Covenant live by the
SPIRIT – not by the old law. It is a completely different covenant.
It is the WALK OF THE SPIRIT that makes it so different. It is a
BETTER covenant for that reason. The very Spirit of God living
and guiding us from within – not mere rules and regulations
from without. What a difference!

The Bible also tells us that the Old Testament is a “shadow” of
the new. For example, most of us would agree that the OT
Passover is a “type” or shadow of the reality which occurred at
Christ’s death. But then people object when we say that Israel
in the OT is clearly a “type” of the church. Surely this is as
clear as day? In fact, if Israel is not a “type” of the church, then
large chunks of the Bible make absolutely no sense.

Israel in the physical. The Church in the spiritual.

Makes perfect sense, does it not?

As I said, if this is not so, then large chunks of Scripture become
utterly incomprehensible.

But it is still important to remember that Israel is a unique entity
and has not been “replaced” by the church. So it is vital that
Christians love and support God’s “first people”.

However, a rather severe `divorce´ seemed to occur in 70 AD when
Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and destroyed (1.1 million
dead) – exactly as Jesus foretold. Jerusalem and Israel were
scattered to the winds for almost 2000 years.

Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the
CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant
era – not Israel.

The “remnant” of Jews can only come back to God properly through
CHRIST – and no other way. And we fervently pray that they do.

Sadly though, there seems to be a kind of “Israel-mania” in the
church today which I believe is very distorted. I do support the
nation of Israel strongly, but for the Christian I believe it is the
CHURCH that should be the focus, far more than the physical
state of Israel.

We “mix” covenants at out peril. And this is a cause of huge
confusion amongst Christians today. We are “New Covenant”
people – not Old. So why do some act as though physical
Israel is our focus? It is one thing to love and support Israel. But
quite another to get caught up in this “mania” that tries to ‘mix’
the two Covenants together. This has actually become a strong
deception – and is leading many astray.

It would be good to hear your comments, my friends.

Blessings from- Andrew Strom. ( [email protected] )

Posted in Articles by Andrew on April 11th, 2013 at 7:38 pm.


910 Replies

  1. It’s the word of God that reveals truth. What is the definition of truth?

    Psa. 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Thy law is truth.

    No wonder He said he didn’t come to abolish the law. The law is the truth.

    Truth draws a line. It’s a line of division. It’s a line that forces a decision of choosing sides.

    It’s that’s simple. To crucify self or compromise. Obedience or disobedience.

    Light or darkness. Wheat or tares. Sheep or goats. Wise or unwise.

    Is this not what Christ taught?

    It’s in TRUTH, God’s law, that we are to strive for unity. This is what Paul taught. …
    Eph. 4:11
    It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    Note that it doesn’t say “Unity in peace” but rather in the faith.

    Unity of peace, however, removes the line of truth.

    Truth becomes subjective to the circumstances instead of vice versa.
    Truth becomes relative and no longer the standard to walk in.

    When peace and unity takes precedence, truth becomes an obscure background.

    What else does the scriptures tell us about truth? 1John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood —Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth
    The Spirit IS truth …..Interesting isn’t it?

    The law is the truth, the Spirit is truth and it’s the Spirit that put’s the law in our hearts …

    Ezek. 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and
    be careful to keep my laws.
    What else do we know about the Spirit? 2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where
    the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    And what did Christ say about himself? …John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am way, the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

    So then, the law is truth. The Spirit is truth. The Lord is the Spirit and the Lord is truth.

    Talk about unity!

    There’s actually more but for the sake of time, let’s stay on topic.
    Consider the following …Eph. 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

    We see here that the unity we are to seek is that of unity of the Spirit the Lord ,the Truth,
    the law.

    Not unity of peace. Let’s read it again.

    Eph. 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

    Consider these words of Christ in referring to our unity …John 17:22
    “And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one;23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected
    in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

    How does the Lord say that we are perfected in unity here? It’s by way of the Father in
    Christ and Christ in us.

    Think about this for a moment. The father…John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    So the Father was, and is, the word. Then …John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    This parallels with Colossians 1:19 …For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    So all of the word, who is God, dwells in Christ. And now that same word is in us …

    Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one
    another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with
    gratitude in your hearts to God.

    James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and
    humbly accept the word planted in you , which can save you
    So do we test everything in accordance to peace? Do we test everything in accordance to

    No. We test EVERYTHING to the word who is God, Christ, the Spirit, the truth, the

    Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
    for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures
    every day to see if what Paul said was true.

  2. DANIEL Apr 11th 2013


    Romans 9,10 and 11 sums this relationship between the Church and Israel quite nicely. God has a way with words. Sometimes it is easy to get distracted by matters of perephrial doctrine and forget to be found before Him in holiness and love. The church or Israel is the Church Israel is Israel the Church. Are your neighbors going to hell? Is your family going to hell? Are you going to hell? Well, are you?

  3. Andrew Apr 11th 2013

    Rod – Agreed – but the New Covenant is a Covenant of the INDWELLING SPIRIT – not of the law. It is the Spirit of God within that leads us in righteousness. Will this agree with the written word? Of course!!

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  4. Greg T Apr 11th 2013

    Praise the Lord Andrew, I once believed that even stepping foot in the “holy” land somehow placed a certain “extra” blessing on my life. Romans 11 is clear about the nation of Israel being grafted back into the root through salvation that only Jesus Christ provides.

    And the point about the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. is tantamount to rightly dividing the word of truth. Jesus spoke of a parable in Matt. 21:33-46 where the husbandman (nation of Israel) murdered the heir and God asks a very important question to close the parable, “Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” Answer: He will utterly destroy them. (v.41)

    Andrew, in all my 26 years of walking the Lord have ever heard one pastor even preach on the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. and how it fulfilled prophecy and its spiritual meaning in the kingdom of God. When when the Lord opened my eyes to this great event, I was changed forever. That’s what truth will do to you!

    So the question now is, (1) who is not Israel and (2) who is the present day Israel? In the mouth of 2 or 3, let God’s word be established.

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

    Lastly, Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Thanks again Andrew for being bold enough to share the truth. Your heavenly reward awaits you.

    Bro. Greg

  5. Averyl Apr 11th 2013

    First the natural, Israel, then the spiritual, the Church.
    Have a look at the 24’s in Rev., 12 represent the 12 Tribes & 12 are the 12 Apostles.
    Considering Jews blame so-called Christians for the Holocaust, I think the gap needs to be bridged to prepare the ground.
    144,000 Jews will be saved & martyred during antichrist’s reign.

  6. Jesus told Pilate He came to testify to the truth. So what’s the truth? If you understand dispensations you can understand what and who the Bible is talking about and to in whatever part of it you are reading.
    Replacement theology is just plain wrong…

  7. If the love of money is the root of every kind of evil then follow the money:

    Zionism is satanic and an abomination infecting the Western Church. And yes I LOVE the Jews but this has nothing to do with the nation described as “God’s chosen people” and everything to do with the very cabal who is destroying the earth and opposing Christ Himself.

  8. I’m very glad to see this topic being addressed. Thank you, Andrew. I completely agree that the covenants are too often being mixed today in the American church.

    Confusion reigns on this topic. Some say that all Jews are God’s chosen people, whether or not they belong to Christ. Others say that Israel (presumably the entire nation?) is God’s chosen people.

    Some imply that God has two chosen peoples: The Jews (or Israel) and the church. This would apparently mean that Jewish followers of Christ belong to both groups of chosen people. It would also contradict, however, all the New Testament statements that in Christ Jesus there are no Jews and Gentiles, there is no favoritism, no partiality, etc. (e.g. Galatians 3:28, Romans 10:12-13).

    I recently wrote an article showing that a lot of this “Israel-mania” today has resulted in replacing Jesus and the role(s) that rightfully belong to Him. I find this to be incredibly sad, and out of place for a church that calls Him our Lord and Savior:

  9. God is no respecter of persons. Therefore, should we not also love and care about the Palestinians?

    God is giving the kingdom to a people who bear its fruits. Therefore, the church needs to be concerned with bearing fruit.

    So many related issues. May love abound in our hearts for all mankind.

  10. The present day Israel is a man made resurrection and not God’s doing. It is controlled by Zionists. The Holy Scriptures tell us that Israel is the whore of Revelation. She was in the OT and nothing has changed. We are told that God will surround Israel with all the troops of the world. When the great city Babylon (Jerusalem) falls all the world will rejoice because of the magnitude of deception that the Zionist Israel would have put the world through. We as true Bereans must start reading our Holy Scriptures without rose colored spectacles. ,

  11. Andrew Apr 11th 2013

    Alf – I cannot agree.

    What a distortion on the “other” side!!

    Where is the balance in this issue?

    In the end, according to Scripture, the entire remnant of Jews will be saved. They will accept Christ as their true Messiah. And the land of Israel is also to be restored in the last days.

    Please do not go to extremes.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  12. The church has a problem with extremes. First they taught that the church replaced Israel and Israel was cut off ignoring all the scriptures about their salvation. Now some are taking the opposite extreme and trying to force Gentiles back under the law like described in the book of Galatians. There is a balance. First of all the church is not spiritual Israel, it is adopted Israel. We are adopted in the vine of Israel the natural branches temporarily cut off. Once Israel recognizes their true Messiah, Christ as a nation, they will be grafted into their own vine. The vine is Israel, We the church are grafted in through Christ but the vine remains the same. Messianic Jews have already been grafted in the vine by faith in Christ who is the only way of salvation for both Jew and Gentiles.

  13. I wholeheartedly agree with you Andrew. I see this as a very subtle way the devil is using to confuse the sheep, especially the ones who want most to please Him and will go to any extent to do so. It turns into Christian works and who can work the hardest to please Him. They say it has nothing to do with their salvation, but yet they feel terribly compelled to follow every jot and tittle of the law as if they were a Jew under the older covenant. They argue presenting the law and judge everyone accordingly. Unfortunately, it seems that the same arrogance that was evident in the Jews by being God’s chosen people is surfacing in this mania amongst the Christians. I do pray for eyes to be opened to the Truth.

  14. This is a very deadly cocktail, the mixing of Law and Grace.When we do this and drink this on a regular basis, we lose our focus of Christ. We are to cast out the bonds woman and her child which is the law and the works of the law, for the bonds woman and the free woman cannot live under the same roof.John the baptist was the last one from the old covenant and he said of himself and Jesus, “He must increase, but I must decrease. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus must come to the forefront of every believer. There is only one walk for the sons of God and that is the walk of the Spirit, the walk of power.

  15. Having attended John Hagee’s church back in the early 80’s I got a taste of the Israel mania message first hand in the extreme. I was younger then and not as aware of the potential for error as so many are today. He always cloaked his take on christians and Jews in terms of “don’t tell them you love them but show them you love them”. Loving the Jews was paramount in his mind, which I think is good, but loving them did not include witnessing to them as far as Hagee was concerned.

    His idea, as I took it back then, was that love alone was the only way to reach the Jews. Witnessing to Jews was a waste of time. He said this many times. I didn’t realize how close he was at the time to presenting dual-covenant theology, which he still denies that he teaches but he was headed that way for sure over 30 years ago. My wife and I had more than one discussion about what his position on the Jews was which always seemed somewhat strange to us. He definitely put Jews in a different class as far as the message of the gospel was concerned.

  16. I agree Andrew.

    God chose Abraham not Lot.
    He then chose Isaac, not Ishmael.
    Then He chose Jacob over Esau.
    He then chose those Jews who believed in Jesus over the Jews who rejected Him.
    God’s election and calling is sure.
    Gentiles were then grafted in and also Jews to be saved must also be grafted in.
    Ephesians 2:11-22 is clear. “He made them BOTH one.”
    And Peter wrote that believing Jews united with believing Gentiles are the chosen, elect people of God. 1Peter 2:9

    GOD bless. See you on the prayerline God willing.

  17. Andrew,

    I read with interest you e-mail about what is going on with the Church and people wanting to go back within the Law by becoming Israel. I also read the comments that have come in so far to see if someone else had already commented on the Scriptures that I believe will help shed some light on this subject.

    Paul wrote about this very subject in the book of Galatians 3, 4, and 5 (whole chapters) and continues on in Colossians 2, (especially verses 8, 20-23).

    While it is good for us to know the history and even the principles behind the churches beginning (the Old Covenant) no where does it say that we are to become Israel, or replace Israel or to return to the ways of the Old Covenant. As you mentioned Andrew there will be those from the nation of Israel that will come into the kingdom of God. In fact we (the Church) are to provoke and make them jealous enough for them to want to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus as their Messiah. Like Paul said in Galatians the Old Covenant was our school master that was there to lead us to Jesus and the New Covenant that was established by His death, burial, and resurrection.



  18. Andrew,

    I have NEVER given this a lot of thought…but your arguments resonate. I agree and I am enlightened. Thank you! Thank you for sparking some spiritual revelation in my life!


  19. Gaynor Apr 11th 2013

    Adam, Ken, Don: agree. Andrew: I agree with every word. Your response to Alf: you said it right there. Remnant. God will save His remnant

  20. trevor barnes Apr 11th 2013

    God married one nation Israel at Mt. Sinai. God also divorced that nation Israel because of idolatry and pagan worship.Read Rev 19. & 21. God will not marry another nation just because He divorced Israel.He says He is coming back for His Bride,His wife.It sounds like He was married before.There is not a single scripture that says that the Bride is the church.No,not one.The Caucasian people got that name because they went over the Caucus mountains trekking into Europe after the fall of the Assyrian Empire.These were the Israel from the house of Israel.Remember there were 2 kingdoms after the death of Solomon.The northern kingdom had 10 tribes and the southern kingdom had 2 tribes. The house of Israel/northern kingdom were carried away to Assyria round about 741 BC and another lot in 721 BC.There is no record of their return to the land of Israel,but history records of Eusibius,Josepus Flavius and other that have recorded the Eropeans/whites/caucasians as the lost tribes of Israel that went into the Dispersion/into Europe and even until the isles of the west(UK).The Hebrides islands used to be called the Hebrew Islands.The Union Jack used to be called the Union of Jacob.The lion and the unicorn(listed 9 times in OKJV bible) are on the coat of arms of the UK. Meaning of British – “Brit” means covenant, and “ish” means man ,so you have man of covenant or covennt man.The Bible was written to His people and nobody else.Other nations/pagan/heathen/gentile,these of non pure Israel racial stock can draw from the Bible most certainly.Multi-culturalism,liberalism,humanism and all these other “isms” are to get the Israel stock to inter- marry withe the other nations,and this is to try and stop the return of Christ for His Bride,His wife. Matt 10:5+6 and .(( 15:24. Jesus says to the discipes to ONLY go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel(not the house of Judah),they rejected Him,His own John 1:11. Jesus said he would tear the kingdom away from the jews who received the gospel first but refused it,and will give it to those who will bear fruit ,so the disciples went all over Europe to find the lost sheep.He told the Canaanite woman. ” I am not sent but only unto the lost house of the sheep of Israel. If anybody wants the full teaching of this pease contact me on [email protected] God is not a God of equality.God bless you as you do research on the Lost tribes of Israel.If you are white,you an Israelite. The jews re not a maritime nation and have never brought the gospel to other lands like the disciples did to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,and these nations have got in their ships and have taken the gospel to the far flung corners of the world.God bless.trevor.

  21. Roger (NZ) Apr 11th 2013

    I well understand the trepidation Andrew, 🙂 many today are turning to Augustines false teaching that the church has replaced Israel, and that Christians are the Israel of God 🙁

    The nation of Israel wasn’t chosen by God because they were special – they are special because they were chosen by God.

    My best friend is a Jew, and He saved my life. Jesus.

    The old covenant (Mosaic) was temporary, and replaced by the new covenant (Messianic) so that both Jew and Gentile could be heirs, adopted sons (and daughters) into the family of God, through repentance, and belief in the Messiah of Almighty God – Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father, salvation and eternal life.

    The Abrahamic covenant is eternal, the promised land was and is the ‘land’ covenanted by God to Israel. Yes the people have broken the conditions laid on them, but God has not broken His promise, His covenant.

    The return of the Jewish people (Israelites, Hebrews) to the land was foretold in O.T. scripture, it started prior to 1948, and was partially accomplished in 1948 – yet the boundaries of that promised, covenanted land, are not the same today as originally given. Ezekiel describes the boundaries of the land as they will be again.

    Amen Averyl – God intends that both Jew and Gentile be united in Him.

    New Jerusalem has 24 names enscribed – on the 12 gates are the 12 tribal names of Israel, on the foundations are the 12 Apostles names, all Jews.

    The members of the Body of Christ Jesus (Church) are branches grafted into the trunk which is Israel. As others have noted, Paul taught the Romans the truth concerning their error – God has not cast away His people.

    In His love,

  22. Roger (NZ) Apr 11th 2013

    Trevor – no tribe of Israel is ‘lost’ – God knows exactly where they are.

    British (or Anglo) Israelism is a false teaching and not found in scripture, therefore is not of God.

  23. Pieter Apr 11th 2013

    Fully concur with your article. Well put and explained!

  24. Salvation is from the Jews, John 4:22, so we in some sense owe them our salvation. We must never disparage them. Israel will be saved, Romans 9-11, just as Chinese, Palestinians, Australians, Kiwis and anybody else – through faith in Christ, repentance of sins, baptism into Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Galatians 3:26-29; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 8; Colossians 3:9-12.
    God is no respecter of persons in terms of salvation. Acts 10:34.
    If God has a special plan for Israel, then that’s his business and he will be entirely just; but I don’t see any special plan mentioned in the Scriptures. I praise God for his revelation of himself in Scripture and nature, and I praise god for his revelation of his will for humanity – including Jewish souls.
    Fair dinkum downunderwriter David

  25. Marc Wildman Apr 11th 2013


    Very simple solution; I am Jewish and Irish and I think we just all need to focus on Jesus Christ. ‘All things are permissible but not all things are profitable?’ What cause one to stumble may not be the same for the next person. I think ‘live and let live’ fits here?

    People are the ones who get ‘off track’ and Messianic Jews even tell Gentiles their way of reaching their people may not be for everyone! I would never say that all the Baptists are off base, or Methodists, or Lutherans, or Catholics, as God has obviously harvested souls in every denomination. I would go as far as to say there will probably be Mormon’s and Jehovah’s Witlessness in heaven unless we are God? Then we probably need to allow Him to separate the wheat from the tares?

    Messianic Judaism is not ‘mania’ for the Jews but it certainly can be for people who are perhaps not born into the Jewish faith. It is a (scriptural) vehicle they employ and they can choose to use their traditions to reach other Jewish people in the freedom of Messiah Yeshua Jesus? In many cases it’s just ‘semantics’ we are taking about as we all have the same directive? Salvation is through (grace) faith in the finished work of the cross, period.

    However, I do not believe in marginalizing Messianic Judaism because of this tendency by some folks to attempt to be Jewish or do not fully understand the Jews scriptural intentions? The Jewish people brought the oracles of God into the world and God still has a covenant with His first born.

    Further, I don’t understand the concept of ‘mixing’ the two covenants at all? The Word of God clearly speaks that Christ came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it? The law (OC) convicts us of sin, but His grace (NC) saves us? One without the other is incomplete, but honoring only one in exclusion too the other perhaps then would be the problem you speak of?

    Without the richness, vastness, traditions and many stories of God’s people in the Old Covenant, the New Covenant would not exist/stand! Grace would abound if not for the foundation of the Ten Commandments. How can one separate what Christ had no intention of doing? There is no need to fear or abolish His Laws, His statutes and His people?

    I personally as millions around the world are perfectly comfortable with putting the Old and New Covenants ‘side by side’ and keeping a healthy understanding and perspective (relationship) of each. Lets take a good hard look at much of Christendom today and it’s many faces, tainted practices and unscriptural liberties taken. Unscriptural liberties such as, word of faith, prosperity doctrines, emerging church, and Chrislam to name but a few?

    It comes down to understanding and education, as the two covenants fit like ‘hand in glove’. It’s not God’s engineering that is off target, it’s usually man who is unable to comprehend His thoughts and ways? The Bible states to be cautious not to curse Israel (root) and that God blesses all those who bless Israel.

    Isarel… is ‘The Apple of God’s Eye’ and salvation is first to the Jew and then offered to the Greek? Without the vine (root) there would be no branches. Absolutely, in the Brit ChaDasha (NC) the ‘one’ man prevails, the blending of the old and new, Gentile and Jew, creates the new man. We are all one in the same in Messiah Yeshua but this doesn’t mean we simply change the Word of God, throw out His divine order and replace it with anything other than what His Words authorizes?

    “But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don’t boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you”. – Romans 11:17,18

    In Romans 11 there are two key points Paul wants us to understand: first, God has not rejected Israel; and second, the olive tree is Israel’s present reminder of their future national salvation in Yeshua. In Scripture, Israel is pictured as a veritable garden of God:

    1) The Fig tree, biblically symbolized Israel’s national life, (Hos. 9:10; Mk. 11:12-14, 20; Matt. 24:32-34).

    2) The Vine, biblically symbolized Israel’s spiritual life, (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:9; Hos. 10:1, Jn. 15:1-6).

    3)The Olive tree, biblically symbolized Israel’s ministerial or service life, (Jer. 11:16, Hos. 14:6; Rom. 11:16-24).

    So, if God can save Gentiles, how much more can He save Jews? One might think that Jewish evangelism should be easy, but unfortunately this isn’t the case. Why not? Why don’t Jews feel at home in the average church? Could it be that non-Jewish expressions of worship found in most churches communicate to Jewish people, that faith in this Jesus is definitely not for them?

    Similarly, Gentiles who do identify with ‘the olive tree’, a Jewish expression of faith, may appear to other Gentiles as contrary to nature: contrary to what ‘feels’ comfortable. Paul exhorts Gentile believers not to change their own expression of faith to accommodate themselves, because the Jewish people are still the natural branches; they are to fit into “their own olive tree”! Look at those words again: “their own olive tree.” Paul said that the local assembly is supposed to look like “their own olive tree” so that they would easily fit in by faith in Messiah.

    What is the most effective way to reach Jewish people with the Good News of Messiah? With their own olive tree, no distractions, no cultural stumbling blocks, no ‘Jew jokes’. If someone is not going to believe in Yeshua let it be because his own unbelief, not because of confusing cultural issues.

    Story; A Jewish man was invited to a Messianic congregation. He wasn’t interested in this Jesus, but just to placate his friends he attended. When he arrived and heard the Jewish music, and heard a message of the Jewish Messiah. He remarked, “This fits; I’m home.” After hearing the Gospel, he understood it and accepted the Lord. Today he is serving as part of ‘the Olive Tree’ to reach out to Jewish people, as well as Gentiles. God was able to graft him back in. So, whether you are Jewish or Gentile, God has a specific plan and purpose for your life, to be a light in a dark world. Remember, reliance on the Lord is revealed in our regard for His branches.

    So, we have many forms of Christian mania, Jewish mania, and it’s the people not the Word of God that get’s distorted. But attempting to disregard the Old Covenant, minimize Israel to me is anathema. Let us then focus on God, His Son, and allow His Holy Spirit to guide us both individually and corporately.

    Remembering that all believers compromise the fullness of all scriptures and that we are all spiritual Israel.

    Romans 11:15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? What an awesome, rich testimony of God’s divine order as we all humbly await His return!

    Marc Wildman
    (Jew/Gentile/Old/New Covenant Blend)

  26. Yes! Thank you, Andrew!

    I’ve seen this Christian Zionism leading many astray in the last few years. It seems to me that this trend is making Israel – the culture and the land itself – into an idol, an object of obsession and even worship. Please continue to unpack this!

  27. Israel are chosen to show the world how to live, their camp of 12 tribes in the desert was in the shape of a cross.
    Modern Israelis who don`t know Christ won`t admit this.
    In spite of the constant rain of missiles and all kinds of terror attacks, their democracy aids the Palestinians daily with goods and services which isn`t reported by the western press. (satan is their master)
    God loves Jew and Gentile alike, saved and unsaved.
    Australia has been called The Great South Land of the Holy Spirit:
    and it was Australian 4th Light Horse Brigade that liberated the Holy land from the Turks: <—a must read

  28. Clare Watts Apr 11th 2013

    Some weeks ago I carefully studied the 3 chapters of Romans that Daniel mentioned. I think it is VERY clearly laid out there that Israel’s rejection is NOT absolute. The church is “grafted in” to the olive tree….it is not a NATURAL branch. I believe exactly what Paul is saying here to the Roman Jewish Christians that [in God’s plan] according to His will “all Israel will be saved, as it is written.” (verse 26.) He doesn’t talk about the body of Christ, or the church, or the bride of Christ, he names Israel. The church is never referred to as Israel….it is the church, or believers, the disciples, the Ecclesia……and a bunch of other “names”, but Israel is Israel, and that is exactly what he is talking about. However, I believe that to make this happen, God will remove the scales of blindness that have covered their eyes for 2000 years, break the stubborn, rebellious pride of the people, and bring them BACK into the fold, through kneeling before Jesus and acknowledging Him as their Messiah and LORD. Personally I can’t find anything that goes contrary to scripture in this at all….? They WILL see Jesus, and they WILL rejoice in Him as their Savior and LORD and we all will be part of that olive tree – the natural grafted BACK in to it along with the adopted children of God – the church.

  29. margaret Apr 11th 2013

    YES Andrew and there is more to the deception about the New Covenant. Many incuding myself now believe that Daniel 9v27 refers to Jesus fulfilling the old testament covenants through His sacrifice on the cross…”And He ( Jesus and not the Antichrist) shall enter into a strong and firm covenant [The New Covenant ]with the many for one week ( 7 years).And in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease……” Jesus ministry was for three and half years and the ministry of the antichrist will be in the final three and half when Israel will be saved. What a glorious time to be alive- to see the truth revealed to God’s natural Covenant people! I want to see it !

  30. Jennifer Apr 11th 2013

    Wow. We were in agreement on so many points until this crucial foundational one. I have been thrilled as you have been consistent to bring the true Word.
    Brother, in this, these things do matter. Jesus will return to Israel as the Jewish King fulfilling all of His Word. You seem to have and utilize only one half of scripture. Bummer.

    You are missing some great Biblical direction found in Romans 9, 10, 11. Also, please visit

    In Y’shua’s Great and Mighty Name, praying for more of Jesus, Jennifer (a Jewish Believer.)

  31. chas351 Apr 11th 2013

    Harold Eberle explains the transition from the Old to New Covenant 70AD [six parts]

  32. Roger, very good what you just said but i am wondering a little about this part?

    The members of the Body of Christ Jesus (Church) are branches grafted into the trunk which is Israel. As others have noted,

    Roger, would you like to consider that the trunk/root is Jesus and not Israel.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    wert graffed in “among them, and with them”

    “among them (Israel) and with them (Israel)”

    The Church is now grafted into Jesus and Israel will be grafted in later at the end of the 7 year tribulation (Zec 12:10) this being one of the many scriptures that tell us this.

    Blessings Bro

  33. Carl Emerson Apr 11th 2013

    Thanks Andrew for bringing this topic to the table.

    Roger, I think your offering is concise and accurate.

    Christ within (the imperishable seed) is the acid test of salvation for ALL mankind whether Jew, Greek, Male, Female, White, Coloured…

    Jesus it the only door to salvation.

    But God also has a special purpose for the Jewish Nation of Israel.

    His promises concerning His people and The Land were eternal promises that did not disappear because of Israel’s unfaithfulness or because of the events of 70 AD or any other Holocaust for that matter.

    So we watch with interest His purposes for the Church and Israel in this late hour.

    What a privileged time to be alive… right when He is bringing His chosen race back to the Land after thousands of years in exile.

    And right when He is pouring out His spirit on His chosen people (the Church) to be a light in darkening days.

    Bless you all and Shalom.

    Carl Emerson.

  34. IVONNE CARLSON Apr 11th 2013

    I am in total agreement with you Andrew, we are to live in this New Testament Covenant and we are the apple of God’s eyes. Unless the Jew repents and acknowledges Jesus as their Messiah, there is no special place for them. We are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and the protection of Israel borders. But, we most not confuse that with God’s prophetic Word about all those that refuse to accept His Son.

  35. God planted a vineyard in Israel but it did not yield the required fruit. Isaiah 5:1-7. Because of their rejection of him, Jesus promised that the kingdom of God would be taken from Israel and given to a nation producing the fruit thereof. Matthew 21:33-44. Jesus is now the vine and Christians are the branches. In this vine we will produce good fruit if we abide in Jesus the vine. John 15:1-11. Under the Law our sinful passions bore fruit for death, but now in Christ in the Spirit, released from the Law, we bear fruit for God as we live the new life in the Spirit. Romans 7:1-6; compare 2 Corinthians 3; Galatians 5:16-26
    Fair dinkum downunderwriter David

  36. Jennifer Apr 11th 2013

    Amen!!! Thank you Mr. Strom!!!
    I read “End Time Delusions” by Steve Wohlberg, he explains it very well with scripture. Also he has YouTube videos. I highly recommend!

  37. See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which[b] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
    17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
    18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen. Galatians 6:11-18
    Paul is writing in large letters to emphasise his point! Let us boast only in the cross of Christ. Nothing else is as important.
    Fair dinkum downunderwriter David

  38. Andrew Strom- I have to disagree with your comments. You are still supporting a type of Replacement Theology. The church has not usurped Israel as the apple of God’s eye. While Christ and salvation are the main thing for both Jew and Gentile you are not understanding the Doctrine of the Remnant in Romans 11.
    First Paul stated that there has always been a true Israel within the nation of Israel -this is the faithful (spiritual) remnant of Jews. In every generation and today, they exist. Romans 9:6 says “For not all who are of Israel, are Israel”. While the nation of Israel may not have responded to God, the remnant always has. This remnant will survive the Tribulation and be protected, whereas two thirds of national ethnic Israel will perish. Now let us look at the Olive Tree in Romans. The tree is owned by Israel. The tree represents its spiritual (covenanted) blessings. The tree has its natural branches (remnant Jews) and its wild branches -Gentile believers grafted in and thus are now PARTAKERS (NOT OVERTAKERS) of these spiritual blessings. Romans 11:25 says “Until the fullness of Gentiles comes in”. Hardness in part came to the nation of Israel, in order for the Gospel to go to the Gentiles, who were then PARTAKERS of Israel’s spiritual blessings. Once the God chosen number of Gentiles come in to true spiritual faith in Christ, then the church will be raptured. Then once again God will start to deal with the nation of Israel as a whole -but Israel will not be saved until they go thru the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) as per Paul’s statement in Romans 11:25 re the hardening. Then in Zechariah 12:10 -they will say “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”. People must realise that Jesus will not come back UNTIL THEY, the JEWS ASK HIM TO- (nothing to do with the Gentile Church at all) and the pressure of the time of Jacob’s trouble will undoubtedly aid this. God did not choose Jews and Israel because they were better -God is no respecter of persons.
    Many replacement thinking Christians can’t hack being so called 2nd best. They have idols in their own hearts!! It has got nothing to do with this. God chose a people and a land in order to establish His name and purpose for the earth. No-one would want to be an Israeli Jew or Jew -their persecution from satan is enormous. Satan knows his time is short and his aim is to wipe out the nation of Israel (and Jews) to prevent Jesus from returning there. Jesus is coming back to land at the airport of Mt of Olives and enter thru the closed gate (where the Muslim cemetery now is) at the time they (Israel) ask HIM to return -re time of Jacob’s trouble.
    Why do you think there is so much angst against a tiny desert nation of Israel.
    There are 3 groups -Remnant spiritual Israel (believing Jews), ethnic National Israel (unsaved) and Gentile spiritual believers (church). The Gentile church is commanded by God to preach the Gospel to the Jew first and even support them materially. The GC are to provoke the Jews to jealousy (re our faith). Every individual or nation who tries to divide (GOD’S LAND) of Israel comes under instant judgment. The land of Israel is God’s piece of real estate on earth. Jerusalem is the geographical centre of earth, it is the seat where good and evil will face off, so to speak.
    The Bible is about the Jews and Israel and the Gentile church came into being only in the Book of Acts -Pentecost. To advocate that the church is spiritual Israel is HERESY. God is involved with all those 3 groups. The church is the bride of Christ but Israel is the wife!
    The land of Israel is equally important, as are its people -Jews. As Gentile believers we must realise that what happens in Israel
    is central to our walk -the happenings in and to the land of Israel are the world’s time clock. Bible prophecy reveals this, time and time again. According to Derek Prince, 81% of Bible prophecy concerning the nation of Israel has occurred so we are in the last 19% of prophetic events re Israel and the Jewish people. The land and people of Israel have much trouble ahead, from the nations of this world controlled by satan. We can not merrily go on our way in our self indulged, man run Laodicean churches and ignore the nation of Israel, the Jewish people and Bible prophecy. We do that at our own conceited ignorance.
    Romans 15:25

  39. Carl Emerson Apr 11th 2013


    I respect your many insights and careful adherence to His word.

    I would like to ask you however to justify the following claim you made concerning the Church not Israel being the “apple of God’s eye”

    You said…

    “Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the
    CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant
    era – not Israel”

    You are referring to Zech 2 as follows…

    6 “Ho there! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the Lord, “for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens,” declares the Lord.
    7 “Ho, Zion! Escape, you who are living with the daughter of Babylon.”
    8 For thus says the Lord of hosts, “After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.
    9 For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me.
    10 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord.
    11 “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.
    12 The Lord will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.

    Please explain from Scripture how this clear reference to Israel now applies to the Church in New Covenant times?

    It is hard not to see this as replacement theology…

    Bless you,

    Carl Emerson.

  40. John Barron Apr 11th 2013

    Following on from David’s input, Israel is the tree (or vine). Since their general rejection of Jesus the ‘branches’ of Israel have been broken off, and we Gentiles who have accepted Jesus have been grafted in. In both cases we are branches, the ‘root’ of the tree (the original covenants) are still perfect since they have been set by God. They will never change. We Gentile branches (Church)can only flourish by accepting God’s new covenant, new way of relating to Him, through Christ, His living Word. When the number of the Gentiles are up (complete) God will ultimately remove His Church. He will remove His Holy Spirit. In effect, He will ‘remove’ this New Covenant at that time. He will then return to redeem His chosen people who come to Him through (The) Great Tribulation. He will fulfill His ‘Old’ Covenant with the Jews/Israel.

    I suggest ‘The Dilemma of Laodicea’ by Jacob Prasch.

  41. Alison M & Carl

    And with respect to Andrew Strom, i also had an issue with this –

    Zec 2 :8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.


  42. Diane Robrts Apr 11th 2013

    Andrew, you are right on. Over the past decades I’ve been very concerned about all of the money spent on prophecy TV iprograms and literature about Israel. While we shouldn’t neglect Israel, I agree with you that this obsession in the evangelical community is misplaced and taking up way too much press, money and energy that should be spent on true evangelism of everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike.

  43. Brightsword Apr 11th 2013

    Great topic Andrew! I did not have time to read all the comments. The essence of the Gospel or the New Covenant is that “by faith we are placed (baptized) into Christ so that what is true of him is true of us.” There are many implications of this when you think about it, e.g., we are righteous and holy because He who is in us is righteous and holy, etc.
    The Old Testament certainly teaches us that always only a remnant of God’s “chosen” people were ever saved. I believe that goes for today’s time also—perhaps 10% is the scary number! It is well for us to ask ourselves if I am in this small remnant—even better to not be over confident about whether you are or not. Our hope is Jesus and His resurrected Spirit in us.
    So absolutely correct that the church does not replace Israel—this is the basis for the depraved concept of Replacement Theology.
    We were all just like the unbelieving Jews today—not accepting Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior. But God finds people and bestows on them His grace. GOd has a plan for each believer’s life and He has an end-time plan for the Jews where they will finally realize that Jesus was the conquering King they had been waiting for—finally conquering all evil after the last example of the Millennium where man’s sinful nature proves it needs to be crucified. The only crucification that has the power to do this is being part of Christ’s death on the cross. When we really enter the New Covenant with and in Christ—what is true of Him is true of us—we were crucified with Him!
    I love Israel and look forward with joy as God’s promises are finally fulfilled as the 144,000 Jews who now now the Truth are set free show the others.

  44. chas351 Apr 11th 2013


    ~there is NO Tribulation (see my comments previously above)

    why would God beat up the Bride before marrying her ?

  45. Peter Cefalu Apr 11th 2013

    Dear Andrew,

    I have been weary of the all this Israel worship that alot of Zionist Christians have been involved with for quite some time.

    It seems that the Christians want to become Jews in stead of the Jews accepting Jesus Christ the Savior. I support Israel but I do not support this slobbering love affair with all things Israel.

    They (Jews) should not be treated differently than any other group. We should have an appreciation for all things that are good that came out of the Hebrews namely our Lord and Savior…but let’s not forget that Jews are very hostile to Christians and the message of Jesus Christ. They rejected God’s Prophets, Apostles and Jesus. They were punished for 2,000 years as a result of it. God has not dealt with them in anyway, but has turned His affection towards His body the Body of Christ. Glory to God!

    I support israel but I loathe this Christian Zionism. It seems that they (Jews) love to receive it but are not good at giving back…since they are the primary ones that oppose our Christian faith in America. Look at Hollywood and the Media in general how they are run by Jews and are very hostile to Christianity. Unless they become born again, they will continue their hostility towards all things Christian.

    In the rush to be zealous for the so called “God’s Choosen People” which is an unbiblical title for them since we have been grafted in and are now God’s Chosen in Christ, too many Christians have given up their witness for Christ, they have become quasi-Jews.

    Thanks for you post Andrew! It confirmed alot of things… Let’s keep praying that Jews will embrace the Lord.

    What do all of you think?

  46. Kelling Apr 11th 2013

    Really you can not touch this through Greek King James. Yashua said the truth would set you free do you want to be free? Yah says to study to show yourself approved. He also states that there is a way that seems right to men but leads to death. So if you really want to learn the truth and depth of the Hebraic thoughts in scripture here are a few people and sites that would help. Hebraic Heritage Ministries Int’l, Eddie Chumney, Rico Cortes, Brad Scott, Dean Wheelock. These are learned men who are worth studying before you go off half cocked with some of these posts. Shalom in Yashua. Dr. David.

  47. Christine Roberts Apr 11th 2013

    This is the best presentation of the topic I have read, covering why we still honour Israel, but are not wanna-be Jews. I agree with every scripture that replacement theologists quote – but have to stop short of saying the Church has replaced Israel.
    Another aspect of the mania sweeping areas of the church, is an unstated attitude of self-righteousness, which goes along the lines of “we have something more than you because we blow the shofar in our church” etc. As a prominent Aussie apostle said, “there’s as much righteousness in blowing a kazoo”.
    I have had difficulty explaining my love of Israel to those who hold onto replacement theology, and I consider your article is one that will help me explain the truth to them.

  48. For those who dislike Andrew’s comments regarding “the apple of God’s eye,” because you believe this is an eternal description of the nation of Israel, how would you answer this question:

    Who was the apple of God’s eye from 70 AD until 1948 when there was no nation of Israel?

    Also, how do you reconcile your belief(s) with the overall teachings of the New Testament regarding Jesus and His church? Was the apostle Paul mistaken when he taught that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus?

    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for YOU ARE ALL ONE in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28)

    “For there is NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all IS RICH TO ALL who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 3:28-29).

    Alison, it’s especially sad to see you rebuking Christians for “failing” to see that we are second-class citizens next to the Jewish people. That thinking runs counter to the entire weight of the New Testament.

  49. For Chas351

    The Remnant of believing Jews (wife) are totally protected thru the Time of Jacob’s trouble and the Gentile believing church are taken out.
    Some Bible references FYI

    Matthew 24:21
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

    Daniel 12:1
    “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

    Matthew 24:29-31
    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Daniel 9:27
    And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Revelation 7:14
    I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    and many more if you read your Bible!

  50. chas351 Apr 11th 2013

    Alison M

    ~have you watched the Youtube Links i posted above?

    i too “had” your views for 29 years (mix of truth and error)

    start here>

    Well worth SERIOUSLY considering with an open mind, have a listen to: The Biblical Truth

    Six Parts > by Harold Eberle


  51. Peter Cefalu Apr 11th 2013

    The Jews were the first followers of Christ- all of Christ’s disciples/Apostles were Jews… the ones that rejected Jesus paid a dear price for it. Look at 70 A.D. and how the Jews were destroyed.

    I mean that was punishment for disobedience. Disobedience in what? In rejecting and killing their Messiah. They still reject Jesus and many oppose Jesus in Movies, Media etc…

    To slobber all over some of these unrepentant Jews is sickening. We need to lovely share Christ with them and show them through scripture that Jesus is the Messiah. Why support Jews in general if they are “contrary to all men” as Paul wrote?

    This is due to alot of hype and end-time book selling for some Christians. You can still be arrested and harrassed in Israel…sure they’ll take your money and support but that’s as far as it goes.

    Let’s continue to support Israel because it’s in line with God’s plan but not give in and not preach the Gospel…There is no other Name by which men can be saved other than Jesus Christ!.

  52. chas351, there is a 7 year tribulation BUT! it is NOT for His Church, as you rightly say.

    Dan 9:24 SeventyH7657 weeksH7620 are determinedH2852 uponH5921 thy peopleH5971 and uponH5921 thy holyH6944 city,H5892 to finishH3607 the transgression,H6588 and to make an endH2856 of sins,H2403 and to make reconciliationH3722 for iniquity,H5771 and to bring inH935 everlastingH5769 righteousness,H6664 and to seal upH2856 the visionH2377 and prophecy,H5030 and to anointH4886 the most Holy.H6944 H6944

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    שׁבעה שׁבע שׁבוּע
    shâbûa‛ shâbûa‛ shebû‛âh
    shaw-boo’-ah, shaw-boo’-ah, sheb-oo-aw’
    Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years): – seven, week.

    (specifically of years) seven

    Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    “forty and two months” the 2nd 3 1/2 years, of the trib

    “thousand two hundred and threescore days” the 1st 3 1/2 years of the trib.


  53. Andrew Apr 11th 2013

    PLEASE do not get into “Tribulation/ Rapture” discussions on this thread, my friends.

    Thanks so much


  54. I believe Andrew is correct: Old Testament Israel was a type and shadow pointing to a future reality (even as Paul expressed in I Corinthians 10:11). I agree that fulfillment is found in the church, the body of Christ. However, I view this as secondary. First and foremost, Jesus is true Israel.

    Paul makes it clear in Galatians 3 that ALL of God’s promises are wrapped up first in Jesus, and second in His followers. Paul says this in verse 16:

    “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds,’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed,’ meaning ONE person, who is Christ.”

    Jesus is singularly the recipient of all of God’s promises, and He graciously extends those promises to His followers:

    “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

  55. antipas4yahshua Apr 11th 2013

    To fellow non Jewish Disciples of Christ.
    The book of Romans is for Jews transitioning from the Law of Moses to the law of the life of the Life of the Sprit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1).
    ( I seriously doubt that very few Christians who were converted from Judaism to Christian Discipleship – however the early church had quite a few who were proselytes of Judaism).
    With that being said – I suggest taking a look at Acts 15
    For it was the Holy Spirits decision — and ours — to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. You will do well if you keep yourselves from these things.

    With that being said – the cerimonial portion and the social portion of the Torah is of little to no concern (many serve as types and have spiritually transcended much like circumcision (now spiritual) . However, the moral portion of Torah has been greatly enhanced and requires the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

    Btw, the covenants are only written to the House of Israel and no other race of people (Ez 11, Heb 8, Ez 36).

    When one becomes a disciple of Christ through repentance, baptism, and forgiveness – they receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) and becomes part of the Israel and enters into the Abrahamic blessings (They are “joined to” or “grafted in”. I suggest reading Romans 9-11 & Gal 3 a number of times as well (Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.)

    I strongly recommend fellow non Jewish raised Christians to reach out to Messianic believers for their assistance with the interpretations of Paul, Jewish thought /writings which has a number of “seeming contradictions” that Hellenistic (European) struggle and have difficulty with Paul.

    Please dont take this as a slam – it isnt. Even Peter who was Jewish and followed Jesus had a difficult time understanding Paul (2 Peter 3 as our dear brother Paul pointed out in his letter to you, written out of the wisdom God gave him. In that letter, as indeed in all his letters, he referred to these matters. There are, of course, some things which are difficult to understand, and which, unhappily, ill-informed and unbalanced people distort )


  56. I’d like to add a few more thoughts on how the New Testament shows that Jesus is true Israel, and that we who belong to Christ are made one with Him and are therefore also brought into the same status as “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16). I’ll provide one example of each of these points: First is an examination of how Matthew takes what was once said about the nation of Israel, and applies it to Jesus. The second is a look at how Peter takes what was once said of the nation of Israel, and applies it to the church.

    [1] In Exodus 4:22, God instructs Moses to say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My firstborn son, and I say to you, “Let My son go that he may serve Me.”’” Then in Hosea 11:1-2 we read, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols.” Who is Israel in these Old Testament texts? Clearly it’s that ancient nation, known as Israel, which was finally destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

    Yet look at how Matthew treats this same statement. To set the background, an angel has warned Joseph, the father of Jesus, to flee to Egypt with his family, because Herod would seek to destroy Jesus: “And he [Joseph] rose and took the child [Jesus] and His mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called My son’” (Matthew 2:14-15).

    Only 40 verses into the New Testament, Matthew declares, by strong implication, that Jesus is true Israel.

    [2] Compare what Moses spoke to “the people of Israel” (Exodus 19:3) to what Peter said was true of the church. It’s impossible to miss the parallel language, and I have letter-coded the parallels (A, B, and C):

    To ancient national Israel: “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be [A] MY TREASURED POSSESSION among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to Me [B] A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS and a [C] HOLY NATION…” (Exodus 19:5-6).

    To the church: “But you are a chosen race, [B] A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a [C] HOLY NATION, a people [A] FOR HIS OWN POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people…” (I Peter 2:9-10).

    Peter leaves no doubt that Christ’s followers are chosen for the same purpose(s) for which the nation of Israel was once chosen.


  57. Israel is God’s first love, the prodigal son magnified…physical son, for which God is orchestrating events in the latter times to bring back home, to recognize their Messiah Jesus Christ.

    Jer.2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

    Jer. 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

    When they do that, they will be considered to be home, and they will be restored, and take their rightful place. The Church, in that it reflects faith in Jesus Christ as the Way, the only way to restoration, is the new covenant. The Church is the son who never strayed. However, these times are all about bringing Israel back as the prodigal son. The Church already is saved, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and by Church I am not talking about the man made churches with their man made dogma (who drift in every way, following this dogma or that), but the combined Church which is held together by the Holy Spirit, which wears the simple yoke of Jesus Christ, and believes in the simple Doctrine of Jesus Christ, the Fountain of Living Waters. The Church is, or will be upon it’s transformation, the crystal clear waters that come from the beneath the Eastern Gate of New Jerusalem. All Saints will be transformed, will have crystal waters coming from their bellies.

    John 7:38 =(Christ, the Fountain of Living Waters, spoke) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    (Ezekiel 47:2) Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

    (Ezekiel 47-8)Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the (sea) waters shall be healed.

    Ezekiel 47-9And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known, But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    I believe those Jews who recognize the one they pierced upon His return will be gathered to Jerusalem and will enter into His service in their flesh bodies and reign with Him on this earth during the Mellinnium. The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, are pure genetic Jews which are marked so they can safely go through the trumpets and the Vial Wrath, meeting Christ on the Mount when He splits it. I think these Jews only will be transformed at that time.

    However….the Saints will be capable of healing the land, as they have been transformed through their belief in Christ before He returns…and when next they see Him, they will be like Him. The Church is transformed before the Vials begin. Each Church members duty is to do as the LORD requires us to do: to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God, all of which boils down to seeking righteousness. Zeph 2:3, “It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the LORD’s anger.”

    The Church is not lost, Israel is. The Sheppard will seek that which is lost.

    Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    These times are all about Israel, and each individual member of the Church seeking God’s daily Will for them, not their own will, so they will be positioned to help others, those which are cold, hungry, ill, in prison, and lost…..which would include Israel. Pray for Israel, that she recognizes her true Messiah, and not the one that comes from the well pit during the 5th and 6th trumpet soundings.

  58. Roger (NZ) Apr 12th 2013

    Adam – there seems to be some confusion here – when I read in the link you posted (your last comment above) I read a teaching that the church has replaced Israel, and that seems to be what you are saying as well..?

    – this (to me) IS ‘replacement theology’ as the term is generally accepted.

    We need some clarification here..

  59. Scott K Apr 12th 2013

    Well meaning Christians often misunderstand Israel and this is tragic because the understanding is so important to the outworking of our faith.

    The essential starting point is to realize that there are 2 (count them 2) Israels recorded in the Bible. One is the “Israel of God” and the other is just plain ordinary, natural Israel. The Israel of God is alluded to in type but is also specifically called out in Galatians 6:16. It is the body to whom has been conferred peace and mercy in this age and it is clear, contextually, that it is one and the same as the New Testament Church body of believers (including those in Galatia).

    The “Israel of God” is referred to as the “olive tree” in the famous passages of Romans 11. Some people (the natural branches or natural Israel) were broken off due to unbelief. Others (wild branches also referred to as Gentiles) were grafted into the olive tree. It was “blindness” of natural Israel that was given “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in”.

    There has always been a natural Israel and a true Israel (of God). There have always been people who consider their lineage more important than their heart attitude to God. But God (who is not a respecter of persons) is interested in our heart.
    This is what Romans 9:6-8 is all about:

    “…For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God..

    We need to accept this fact because it is the way our Lord views it. There is a True, Heavenly, Israel of God and there is a natural Israel. The true Israel is the body of all the children of God in the earth today.

    The true Israel may include elements of natural Israel — such as Paul (a Hebrew of Hebrews) and all of the other believing disciples of Christ (who where Benjamites of the natural Israel of the day). The true Israel is much larger and is much more important in the light of prophecy, purpose, and mission than those who are merely related to Abraham.

    What is referred to as Israel in the middle east is NOT the Israel of God. That Israel is merely an attempt to confer that calling upon a people who currently share the religion of modern Judaism. It is a point of fact that the leaders of that Israel view their nation as a Jewish state and as such all Jews worldwide are welcome to apply for citizenship (or dual citizenship as case may be) of Israel. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and others in general are not offered this citizenship — even if you can prove that you are related to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. Paul, Peter, John, and Jesus himself would not be granted Israeli citizenship if they lived today.

    Let me remind everyone here and now — Jesus is the true King of the Jews and the true King of Israel. He is my King. What is the name of that Kingdom? Well, if was to be given a name — we would have to call it the Heavenly Israel, the true Israel, and the Israel of God. However, the truth of this matter is currently hidden just as it is written, “that blindness in part is happened to (natural) Israel, unto the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Even so, “..all Israel shall be saved”. Have you been saved? Well, thank God that he has made you a “people” who “were not my people”. (Incidentally, those references in Romans 9:25 are from Hosea who renamed his children as a prophetic gesture indicating God’s intention to cast off his natural people Israel years ago and strip them of their identify only to gather them again unto himself. This is fulfilled in “us” — the so-called Gentiles.)

    So, if the natural Israel of today is not necessarily the Israel of God, what is it?
    Well the acid test of identity is simple. “Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God”. It is that simple.

    We should not be surprised. This has been a repeating pattern. Consider these facts. Jesus was and is the true King of the Jews and of Israel. Correct? But in his days on earth there was another King — Herod. Which one was the true King? People tend to spiritualize Jesus’ kingdom too much and too little. Jesus was the rightful heir of his father David’s throne. Herod was an Edomite impostor who usurped the throne through political intrigue and other means. But Jesus brought us a kingdom that comes without outward observation (the kingdom of heaven). Who was the true High Priest? John the Baptist was supposed to be. Instead we had Caiphas who was installed also as an impostor. We had High Priest whose “father” was the Devil. So on and so on…

    People, do not be so easily fooled just because people call something Israel. Herein lies the damage of this deception. So many of us (Christians) have conferred the duty and responsibility of the Chosen People of God to others who are not even God’s people nor have any intention to be. This calling is only available to those of faith in Christ.

    As true, spiritual followers of Christ:

    1) you are made nigh by the blood of Christ
    2) you are no longer aliens from the commonwealth of Israel
    3) you are not strangers from the promise of God
    4) you are not without God in the world
    5) you have access by one Spirit unto the Father
    6) you are not foreigners
    7) you are fellow citizens with all the saints
    8) and are built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets
    9) with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone
    10) you are a holy nation,
    11) you are a peculiar people,
    12) and you are royal priesthood!

    You are the ones he has destined to inhabit by his Spirit and to make into a Praise in the Earth. There is no other people called for this purpose and this is the primary purpose of God.

  60. Carl Emerson Apr 12th 2013


    Reading again Romans 9-11 can I suggest we look carefully at this passage…

    25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

    26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

    “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

    27 “This is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”

    28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

    29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

    31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

    32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    Please consider particularly vs. 28 and 29. This is a reference to the Nation of Israel, not just to believing Jews…

    “from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable…”

    Friends lets be careful, the calling of God stands. Israel is beloved of God as a Nation.

    God has the prerogative to be racist and had chosen Israel as a Nation for special attention and special purposes.

    This collides with modern secular thinking that all races are equally valued. God’s choice of Israel is being fiercely contested in the world and sadly in the “Church”


    Carl Emerson.

  61. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    I might be able to add something here.
    How about defining “Israel” since it has multiple meanings ?
    – Physical land of Israel
    – Heavenly Jerusalem
    – Spiritual Jew / Elect (Disciple of Jesus either Jewish or Gentile born)
    – Elect Physical Jew (Jew following the OT Law who are chosen )
    – Non Elect Physical Jew (Jew following the OT Law who are not chosen )
    – Jew (born of Jewish race and non practicing).

    Any others ? Please feel free to add. I hope this helped.


  62. Val Pym Apr 12th 2013

    Your post is spot on Andrew. Israel is the pattern nation. The promises to Abraham are fulfilled in the natural in Israel and in the spiritual in the Church. By studying God’s dealings with the nation we can see what He is doing in the Church. Many accept the type of the Passover but then don’t follow the type through to it’s conclusion. The Promised Land for us is the Earth. The ‘giants and walled cities’ are the devil and his strongholds in the Earth. The Church is to come against ‘the gates of Hell’ Israel had to conquer the Land and establish the kingdom. Their Commission was completed when Solomon son of David dedicated the Temple. The church is here to bring down the strongholds of the enemy and make way for the Kingdom. The Promised Land is ‘the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.
    God’s purposes are Demonstrated in Israel, Activated by the Cross Manifested through the Church. In the end time Israel will come to the Lord and come together with the Churchr and it will be as ‘life from the dead’ Romans 11:15

  63. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Lively discussion Andrew & thank you for your article.

    Adam Maarschalk

    Glad you brought up this great truth of God`s purposes for Israel & the Body of Christ. because I believe that is what the Lord is directing us to. It gives us a great appreciation of what God is doing through Christ.

    You said,
    `Peter leaves no doubt that Christ`s followers are chosen for the same purpose(s) for which the nation of Israel was chosen for.`

    Let`s look at the scriptures more closely to gain a greater appreciation of God`s purposes.

    Ex. 19: 5 – 6 God said to Israel you shall be `a kingdom of priests & a holy nation.`
    Then in 1 Peter 2: 9 – 10 God says to the Body of Christ, you are a `royal priesthood..`& later the Apostle John declares in Rev.1:6 `He has made us kings & priests unto God…`

    Israel are Priests.
    Body of Christ are King Priests.

    Heb. ch.7 tells us that we are of Christ`s Melchizedek Priesthood, a Royal Priest, a King Priest.

    To have this dual role, King Priest, is awesome & it was never promised to Israel. It is the `high calling,` the `on top calling,` the Apostle Paul talked of in Phil. 3: 14.

    This `on top,` calling. purpose for the Body of Christ is to rule & reign with Christ on His throne with Him in the third heaven, the realm of thrones & dominions. (Rev. 3:21 Col. 1: 16)

    Hope this brings clarification. Marilyn.

  64. Roger (NZ) Apr 12th 2013

    Scott K – the article here from which this passage is taken, may help your understanding that there is only one Israel of God..

    Galatians 6:16 “..And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God..”

    Ladd observes of this verse:

    Paul avoids calling the Church Israel, unless it be in Galatians 6:16, but this is a much disputed verse (ed. Clouse 1977, p. 25).

    The “Israel of God” in this verse is often taken to include gentile church members. In fact, many believe this verse redefines Israel. That conclusion is unwarranted. Using the Old Testament to help us interpret the ambiguous verse suggests that it distinguishes between the gentiles (“as many as walk…”) and the Israelites (“Israel of God”) within the one body. Harrison says,

    … “Israel” has not been used of Gentiles in these chapters, and it is doubtful that such is the case anywhere in Paul’s writings, even in Galatians 6:16 (1995, p. 123).

    We need to remember that ‘Israel’ are a people, not a piece of land. The people ‘Israel’ are being regathered, and returned to the promised land, which is the modern state of Israel.

  65. Roger (NZ),

    Thanks for your question. I’m saying that Jesus is true Israel and, according to Scripture (e.g. Galatians 3), He has conferred that same status upon the church as well. So Israel is [1] Jesus [2] the body of Christ. Outside of Jesus there is no Israel of any spiritual significance.

    I’m no longer intimidated by the phrase “replacement theology.” I’ve observed that this expression is often thrown at non-Christian Zionists and non-dispensationalists in ordered to silence them. I’m done with that. I’d rather be accused of replacing Israel with the church than to be found replacing Jesus, my Savior, with a secular, political nation that has nothing to do with Him for the most part.

    Matt Slick, the president and founder of Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM), defines “replacement theology” as “the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God… [In] replacement theology the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God’s work.”

    In the article I cited above (which you mentioned), you could say that I turned this definition on its head, because the real “replacement theology” we need to steer clear of is any theology that teaches that the modern nation of Israel has replaced Jesus “regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.” And that’s what Christian Zionism has done. God’s purposes and plans are centered in Jesus, not a nation located in the Middle East.

    Please let me know if you still need or want any further clarity.

  66. “We have an alter from which those who serve in the tabernacle have no right to eat.” Hebrews 13:10

    Old covenant or new. Law or Christ. Salvation or judgment. Jesus tore down the old to establish the new. You cannot have both.

    The day the Tabernacle is rebuilt, those who participate will be setting aside the Cross of Christ and will draw the world to a bloodless salvation. Where there is no Cross, there is no death. Where there is no death, there is no rebirth.

    And upon that hill will stand that which should not stand there. It will be the abomination of all abominations. The world will cry out in exultation”Peace! Peace!” But the Prince of Peace will be set aside.. And what will be thought of those who cry out in favor of the older symbol of crucifiction and death? Narrow! Narrow and blood thirsty. Divisive and judgemental. Agghressors, unloving and… Un-Christlike.

    It seemed the Berlin wall would never fall and the cold war never thaw, but in a historic moment, a blink of the eye; through circumstance and happen-stance, the world suddenly changed, and those of us who grew up in those days will never be able to explaine to our children what it was like before the wound was healed and the world unchilled.

    So it will be, and sooner than later. When? I don’t know, but the cords are being tied and drawn around any who can be deceived into giving up their liberty in Christ.

    His blood was, is and will always be enough. His life was the ultimate gift of God’s love.

    These are the days of patient enduring. Jesus… The sweetest name I know. It is the name by which I came to Him and the name through whom I’m saved.

    I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.

    You can have my guns, but the Cross I will never give up. I know God loves me and dwells within me. I am His temple, as are all who have been crucified and raised up with Him. This I know. In this I am humbled. For this, I will die upon a cross.

    I grieve our confusion. I mourn our faultering confession.

    It is the Cross and Christ; any other message bares the marks of hell.

    We love. We pray for peace. We pray for the salvation of all mankind. We pray for Isreal.

    We Preach Christ Crucified: The Way. The Truth. The Life.

    These are the words of Christ. If you need more words, I am so very sorry. May the Lord forgive you.

    It is time to anchor yourself to the throne room.

    He is Good and Merciful and full of loving kindness.
    Jesus Is The Covenant.

  67. Roger (NZ) Apr 12th 2013

    antipas4yashua – thankyou for that clarification 🙂 I know that I use the wrong term many times.. 🙁

  68. Robert Check Apr 12th 2013

    Regarding your article Replacement-the Church & Israel
    I think you are a bit mixed up Andrew as Romans 11:1-36 gives the relationship of the Church & Israel in God’s purposes for all mankind.In fact Romans 11:18 says very clearly “Do not boast against the branches (Israel),but if you do boast remember that you (Gentiles) do not support the root,but the root (Israel) supports you”
    Jesus preached from the Old Testament there was no New Testament when he was on earth,so did the early church Apostles.
    Jesus was a Jew,so were all the writers of both the Old & new Testaments except for the 2 books written by Dr Luke ie the books of Luke & Acts.
    Jesus said “Do not think i have come to destroy the Law & the Prophets,i did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”Matthew 5:17
    Jesus also said “These are the words which i spoke to you while i was still with you that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses,& the Prophets & the Psalms concerning me.”Luke 24:44.All Old Testament.
    I must say you cannot have your cake & eat to Andrew if God does not keep his promises to Israel & they are numerous throughout the Old Testament,then the Church cannot be sure God will keep his promises to the Church.
    The Church was hidden in the womb of Israel,God chose that nation(iam the God of Abraham,Isaac & Jacob a covenant people) to birth the Messiah into the whole world,many people will not obtain salvation because they will reject the concept of a Jewish Messiah.
    You say that we as Gentile believers have moved on from the Old Testament however Zechariah 14:16 says that the Nations will be required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles annually in the New Millenium,again in the Book Of Revelation 5:5 says “Do not weep behold the Lion of the Tribe Of Judah,the root of David.has prevailed to open the scroll & to loose the seven seals”.
    The Lion of the tribe of Judah (Jesus) from one of the 12 tribes of Israel & King David a Jew & through Jesus, his throne will be forever & ever.
    May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to see more clearly Andrew.
    Blessings Dear Brother
    Robert Check

  69. Andrew: this message has brought MUCH discussion and rightlyfully so. There’s no doubt Jesus said the Kindgom would be taken from You and given to ANOTHER. 2 Peter says YOU (church) are a chosen people, a royal priesthood…..(the same blessings of the O.T) YET, we see Paul saying in Romans he’s not finished with Israel… ALSO, we tend to forget that the JEW is not synomymous with ISRAEL just like All Americans are not Texans, but ALL Texans are Americans. There’s still the original Israel apart from Judah unaccounted for. I really believe there’s much wisdom yet to be totally understood in this area. God willing, He will show us. Blessings, Mike

  70. Roger (NZ) Apr 12th 2013

    Adam – thankyou for that clarification 🙂

    Certainly the replacement of Lord Jesus by the secular nation of Israel is wrong, as is His replacement by anyone or anything.

    Just as wrong is to say that the Church has replaced Israel, and sadly, many do that today with a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of Pauls teachings 🙁

  71. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Scott K & Val Pym have said the the Body of Christ is destined for the earth. I have seen this teaching coming in subtly through out the Body of Christ for many years, especially with Dominionism taking hold.

    I think we would all be shocked to see how many people think we are destined for the earth & how many think heaven.

    ?????? Marilyn

  72. Sandra G. Apr 12th 2013

    Andrew, be blessed, and thank you for bringing this forward. This is
    a touchy subject for many, but one that needs to be discussed.
    Replacement theology to me is like the “all will be saved doctrine”, IMO they are both false, and if one rightly divides the word, then it
    should be pretty obvious that the church has not replaced Israel, nor will all be saved, if this is the case then why would we even need to be judged. Sometimes it is like many have forgotten that our Lord is a Jew. God has not forgotten His people Israel, we as gentiles were, as someone said earlier, we have been grafted into the vine, we are the branches. Many good scripture has been given in the above comments, I haven’t seen this one yet, Rev. ch.7v14>And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” There will be a remnant, Jew or Gentile, we are one in God’s eyes, and we have a choice to believe or not, but we (gentiles/church) have not replaced
    Israel either spiritual or physical.
    Roger, AMEN!! to your post. be blessed my brother.

    In HIS grace,

  73. Mike in Louisiana Apr 12th 2013

    On more thing; Those who write off the physical Israel do so by ignoring MANY prophecies about God regathering a people who were in unbelief and His faithfullness like Hosea to a Gomer and many many more. I really believe those who dogmatically pick an extreme on either side take the whole counsel of God. Is there anyway you could make people’s emails available to others who would like to disuss this further. I for one have wanted to study this with others for some time- I think it is just that important to our end times understanding. Thanks, Mike in Louisiana

  74. Bill Harper Apr 12th 2013

    Our main focus should be on neither Israel, nor the church, but on Jesus Christ, Himself. He is the way, the truth, and the life. It is too easy to get our focus on “our church, our organization, our denomination, and even on our pastor,” but Jesus told the woman at the well “the time is coming and now is that they that worship the Father must worship Him in Spirit and in truth, for got is a Spirit and He seeketh such to worship Him.” Most “Christians” that I am aware of seldom even talk about God, the Bible, or the things of God, outside of the “church setting” and what seems to be “their testimony” is “come to my church.” This should not be! We overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony,” not by inviting people to “our church.” In Christian Love, Bill Harper

  75. Kenny Atnip Apr 12th 2013

    by Andrew Strom

    Andrew ~ “Firstly, we know that some ‘Hebrew Roots’ people proclaim that the New Covenant is simply a “continuation” of the Old. This is absolutely NOT the case. We in the New Covenant live by the SPIRIT – not by the old law. It is a completely different covenant.
    It is the WALK OF THE SPIRIT that makes it so different. It is a BETTER covenant for that reason. The very Spirit of God living and guiding us from within – not mere rules and regulations from without. What a difference!”

    Kenny~ “Amen”

    Andrew ~ “The Bible also tells us that the Old Testament is a “shadow” of the new. For example, most of us would agree that the OT Passover is a “type” or shadow of the reality which occurred at Christ’s death. But then people object when we say that Israel in the OT is clearly a “type” of the church. Surely this is as clear as day? In fact, if Israel is not a “type” of the church, then large chunks of the Bible make absolutely no sense.”

    Kenny ~ “I see it a bit different, not Israel and the Church but simply a difference between the two covenants. The old covenant is passed and now there is a new one. In this covenant we fulfill God’s law by the spirit, in fact it is our new nature to do so.”

    Andrew ~ “But it is still important to remember that Israel is a unique entity and has not been “replaced” by the church. So it is vital that Christians love and support God’s “first people”.”

    Kenny ~ “Israel is still God’s people but have been temporarily blinded for the sake of the gentiles. Salvation is of and for the Jews, the Gentiles take part in the commonwealth of Israel.”

    Andrew ~ “However, a rather severe `divorce´ seemed to occur in 70 AD when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and destroyed (1.1 million
    dead) – exactly as Jesus foretold. Jerusalem and Israel were scattered to the winds for almost 2000 years.”

    Kenny ~ “Not a divorce but temporary separation, Just before Christ returns the nation of Israel will repent and say “Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!”
    (Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.)”

    Andrew ~ “Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant era – not Israel.”

    Kenny ~ “Amen, Christ is the apple of God’s eye and those who are in him partake. However Salvation is yet pointed at the Jews and God will work a mighty miracle on their behalf to bring them to Christ.”

    Andrew ~ “The “remnant” of Jews can only come back to God properly through CHRIST – and no other way. And we fervently pray that they do.”

    Kenny ~ “Amen, I fully agree!”

    Andrew ~ “Sadly though, there seems to be a kind of “Israel-mania” in the church today which I believe is very distorted. I do support the nation of Israel strongly, but for the Christian I believe it is the CHURCH that should be the focus, far more than the physical state of Israel.”

    Kenny ~ “The nation of Israel is the focal point of evangelism for many and this is a good thing but Israel in it’s current state does not take precedence over the Saints.”

    Andrew ~ “We “mix” covenants at out peril. And this is a cause of huge confusion amongst Christians today. We are “New Covenant” people – not Old. So why do some act as though physical Israel is our focus? It is one thing to love and support Israel. But quite another to get caught up in this “mania” that tries to ‘mix’ the two Covenants together. This has actually become a strong deception – and is leading many astray.”

    Kenny ~ “Agreed brother, unfortunately we see much confusion in the Church today. Most try to fulfill the call to walk in the spirit by forcing their flesh, they follow the letter rather than the spirit and in this they think they are walking in the spirit. Nearly all will argue that the letter rules over the author of the letter being the spirit of Christ. Remember the early gentile Church did not have the scriptures and followed the leading of the spirit to teach them how they ought to walk and so do I.”

  76. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Allow me to point something out . What Marilyn Crow stated is absolutely correct and please permit me to add to it.
    The elects destiny is be the dwelling place of G_D in the spirit and governing the saved nations of the earth

    G_DS throne (Heaven IS 66:1) is a “rulership” and a “place” – it is coming to the earth but before it does – G_Ds rulership must first be established “in” the elect before it can be established on the earth.

    The concept of dwelling in heaven is gnostic and eastern religion.
    The concept of resurrection in the flesh on the earth is Judaism & Christian Discipleship.


  77. Kenny Atnip Apr 12th 2013

    Blessings to all!

  78. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Just to be clear – the goal is the earth.
    There is not a single scripture that states when a person “sleep” they go to “heaven”. Please feel free to correct me.
    In the OT – they are gathered to their people or to “their lot”.
    Btw, the thief was promised to be with Jesus and Paul preferred to be with the L_RD (note the stress is on who you are with vs where you are at. It is better to be with Jesus in jail than in heaven without Him).
    Sorry but their simply isn’t a lot of OT/NT scripture on this and hence it is obvious this is not the goal.

  79. Romans 11:26 says, “And so all Israel will be saved.”

    Obviously, it doesn’t mean every Jew will be saved. In fact, the same chapter says God hopes to “save some of them” (vs. 14). Judas was a Jew, yet we know he will be lost for betraying Christ. Jesus called him, “the son of perdition” (John 17:12). Jesus told many Jews, “If you do not believe I am He [the Messiah], you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Not every Jew believes in Jesus Christ, thus many will “die in their sins” and be lost.

    Many Christians today interpret Romans 11:26 as applying to the end of the seven-year tribulation when Jesus appears in the clouds at His Second Coming. In other words, they don’t apply the verse to all Jews throughout history, but only to “all Jews” who are alive at the end. Supposedly, at the end of the tribulation, all remaining Jews in Israel will look up, see Christ coming in the clouds, realize He is the true Messiah, believe in Him, and thus “All Israel will be saved.”

    This is a false teaching, as I will attempt to show.
    1.First, the context of Romans 11 is not the Second Coming.
    2.”There is no partiality with God” (Romans 2:5-11). It would be an act of partiality to save “all Jews” at the end, but not “all Jews” in history. The idea is, “When all final Jews see Christ coming in the clouds, then they will believe.” But this would give those final Jews a supposedly irresistible opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ which past Jews have not had. Nor would this be fair to “all Gentiles” living at the end. Why would God save all Jews at the end but not all Gentiles? All Gentiles will see Jesus coming just like all Jews.
    3.When Christ finally appears in the clouds, IT’S TOO LATE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Rev. 22:11,12 says that before He comes in the clouds, all decisions have already been made. Jesus said it will be like Noah’s day (Mat. 24:37-39). In Noah’s day the door of the ark closed before the flood came (Gen. 7:16). When the flood came, it was too late. To save all Jews AT THE SECOND COMING would be like saving all those outside the ark WHEN THE RAIN STARTED FALLING.
    4.When Jesus comes in the clouds, this is the time of judgment upon ALL unbelievers who don’t know God nor obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14,15).

    So what does this mean, “All Israel shall be saved”? First of all, Romans 9:6 says there are two Israels. one is an Israel according to the flesh (Romans 9:3,4) and the other is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:14-16). The Israel of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:29). Gentiles who believe are grafted in. They become part of the “same body” with believing Jews (Eph. 3:6). Paul calls this unity of believing Jews and Gentiles, “the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4).

    The immediate context of Romans 11:26 is vs. 25. When “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” then “all Israel will be saved.” Or, to be exact, “And so all Israel will be saved.” In other words, the coming in of the fullness of the Gentiles results in “all Israel” being saved. Paul’s idea seems to be that when the Gentiles have come in, that is, have been grafted into the Vine, they, uniting with the Jews who have become believers, will form the total number of the saved. Paul also reveals that when Gentiles come in, God can use this to motivate some Jews to believe (verses 11 & 14). Vs. 25 calls this whole thing, “this mystery,” which we have already proven to be the “mystery” of both Jews and Gentiles being united in one body through Christ (Eph. 3:4,6). Vs. 27 says all are saved because Christ takes away their sins through His covenant, which must be the New Covenant, which applies to all believers, Jew and Gentile. Thus the “all Israel” that is saved is the total group of believing Gentiles and Jews combined.

    The “all Israel that is saved” does not apply to all Jews throughout history, nor can it apply to a select favored group who become instant believers when Jesus Christ comes crashing down through the sky. By that time, it is too late to believe.

  80. Austin Apr 12th 2013

    funny you should mention this – I was in the city a few days ago (Brisbane) and I met a woman in Adelaide St handing out HRM tracts and advertising a meeting hosted by her group here in OZ. After several minutes of banter, she broke out in an agressive manner and attacked me. She told me that I had ‘wiped out 90% of the Bible’, and tha that I have ignored the OT altogether, because I had refused to embrace the HRM theology.

    Perhaps more than any relevant doctrinal discussions, it is the spirit behind the Hebrew Roots movement that has exposed them for preaching a works based belief system, just like the Pharisees of old. “Christ is the end of the law to them that believe” (Romans 10:4) and if the law was good enough to save us, then Jesus died in vain.

    That woman just didn’t want to go there and see the liberty that we have in Christ. She was happy to preach the law, but not Christ???

    Link to a testimony worth reading:

    Don’t trip over any ‘Hebrew Roots’ in your neighbourhood.

    Austin Hellier

  81. Scott K Apr 12th 2013

    Marilyn —

    You are using terms like “Dominionism” for some effect that I do not really understand. Apparently this term means something to you and others who have had some bad experience. Shouldn’t we stand on His Word. We all need to open our hearts and our minds to Him. Again, I’ll try to be clear, his Word states:

    “…ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light” — I Peter 2:9

    And again,

    “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” Phil 2:15

    Clearly, Jesus has made us a “salt” and a “light” in the earth. Has he not? What am I missing?
    We are here. We are in the earth. We do have a purpose. This is the plain teaching of scripture.

  82. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring … What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
    “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
    and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
    26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
    27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[c] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved … So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace … Andeven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved Romans 9:6-8,22-27; 11:5-6,23-26

    The true Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, has always been true believers, for “the just shall live by faith.” Habakkuk 2:4. True believing Jews in the day of Christ and since have been those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God unto eternal life. John 20:30-31
    Fair dinkum downunderwriter David

  83. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    The Church did not replace Israel. It always was Israel, the spiritual Israel. God’s promised seed to Abraham was Jesus. Paul made it perfectly clear. It has always been an issue of faith. The just shall live by faith. In the old covenant it was faith in the coming messiah, after Jesus came that faith became specific that He was the Messiah. The nation of Israel under the Old Covenant had a calling, that was to show that the law could not get us to God, because of our flesh being weak. OT Israel was supposed to show the world that we all needed a savior. Instead they became self centered with their view that they were God’s only people. Circumcision has always been of the heart. Check out the original mention of circumcision. It states that all males must be circumcised, and then the token was given after that of the flesh being circumcised. The token was supposed to be a reminder of the true circumcision. Circumcision of the heart sets a person apart to be God’s child, not circumcision of the flesh.
    As a type and shadow let’s observe Moses. Moses represents the law. Moses could only lead the people of God to the promised land, he could not take them in. Joshua took them into the promised land. The same is true of the law, it brings us to eternal life by revealing the weakness of our flesh. Only our savior, Jesus Christ, can take us into eternal life.
    I have much more on this but I don’t like to stretch out a post more than can hold interest.

  84. I find it very interesting how the western gential church says that the old testament has been done away with. Yet they quote from the book of Malichi 3:10 before giving their tithes Also, they say they believe in the 10 commandments, but only observe 9 changing the Sabbath day to the pagan sun god worship day of sunday. I also find it interesting how brother Andrew in his email uses his own thoughts admittedly so, and not use one word of scripture to back anything up he says from Gods word. people like this create confusion to especially new believers because they believe what these people say, because frankly it sounds logical and right. But is far from the actual truth. Yashuah says in Matt 5:17 that He has not come to do away with the law. What is so difficult to understand in that scripture? It is plain and true. He also came to fulfill the law it says. That means to bring to fullness, not to abolish. Many Christians use the second part of this scripture to say that Jesus came to fulfill the law, in their meaning that He came and fulfilled the law so now we don’t have to follow the law any more. In Gods word, He says that He changes not. So why are so many Christians trying to act like He did?

  85. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Sabbath? How can anyone claim that we must worship on saturday? Saturday is the pagan day to worship the pagan god Saturn. If you believe you must worship on the seventh day of the week, then you must go back to the original calendar used by the Jews when God brought them out of Egypt. How can anyone claim to submit to the Gregorian calendar. What if it is two days off from the original Hebrew calendar. Then you are all worshiping on Monday, which is moon day. Look at the original statement referring to the Sabbath. It says that we are to remember the Sabbath to keep IT HOLY. This means the original Sabbath that God rested on. The seventh day of the week was given to help to remember the Original Sabbath. Now, if you believe you must worship on Saturday as the Sabbath, then you are actually breaking the Sabbath, that states we are not to trust in our own works, but to rest from our works as God did from His, and trust in the work of Jesus.

  86. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Yes Scott K. I agree that we, the Body of Christ are as you said to, `shew forth the praises of Him, ` & `shine as lights.` Sorry I misunderstood you there. Had you realised that God also said to Israel that He will make `Jerusalem a praise in the earth.`

    I also agree when you said that Jesus is Israel`s King. Had you also realised that the Lord Jesus Christ was a King before He was born. Daniel calls Him the King of Heaven, (Dan. 4: 37) & the Apostle Paul calls Him the King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)

    Christ is also King of Glory (Ps. 24: 7 -8) & King of Righteousness & Peace, ( Heb. 7: 1 – 3) & then ultimately as we all know, King of Kings, (Rev. 19: 12, 16).

    Thank you for the profitable discussion. Marilyn.

  87. Kelling Apr 12th 2013

    Wow DonN Wow.!

  88. chas351 Apr 12th 2013


    Sabbath is friday 6pm to saturday 6pm (Jewish Calendar)

  89. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    I am not knowledgeable on the Jewish calendar. Can the current Jewish calendar be traced all the way back to the original command by Moses?

  90. Carl Emerson Apr 12th 2013

    Dear Andrew,

    As requested can you please give scriptural support to your assertion that Israel is no longer the “apple of God’s eye” as stated in Zech 2

    Please refrain from ‘celebrity silence’ and share your thoughts with the lowly brother…:)


    Carl Emerson.

  91. Andrew – I agree 100% with your article.

  92. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013


    Interesting discussion. I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote or that I was not clear enough. So I will enlarge.

    I agree with you that God`s throne is a rulership & a place. It `is established from of old,` (Ps. 93:2) but it will not move to His footstool, the earth. What does come down is the New Jerusalem, God`s rulership for the Universal realm, incorporating the earth, which you mentioned.

    And yes I agree that Christ`s rulership needs to be established in the Body of Christ before we can rule & reign with Him. However I don`t agree that `dwelling in heaven,` is gnostic. And I am glad you left an opening for discussion on this topic – You said,`Please feel free to correct me.` Hope we can work through to understanding.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead & ascended into heaven He sat (& is sitting) at the right hand of the Father on the Father`s throne. (Heb.1: 3 & Rev. 3: 21) This is the third heaven the realm of thrones & dominions.

    We know that He now has a glorified body that can go through dimensions, (John 20: 26 21: 1) & go through the heavens,
    (Acts 1: 9). The Apostle Paul describes this body that we will have also, as `imperishable & immortal,` (1 Cor. 15: 53)

    As to where the Body of Christ is destined for, God does tell us.
    `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit down with Me on My throne..` (Rev. 3: 21)
    `I press toward the prize of the upward, on top, call of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3: 14)
    Note the other `calling,` of God is for Israel to rule the earth.
    This revelation was known in the Old Testament. It was Israel`s hope that they would rule over the nations of the earth.

    However God gave to the Apostle Paul a great revelation that the Body of Christ would also rule with Christ but from another part of God`s great kingdom – the third heaven , the on top calling.

    As Christ is there now with His new body clearly shows that man (changed into His likeness) can & will live in that heavenly realm.

    Look forward to your thoughts, Marilyn.

  93. This is a wonderful topic, with good feedback. The correlations and differences certainly need to be recognized; alongside the responsibilities God places on both.
    Hopefully, we will all learn from what God has shown Andrew and many others who share their insight here. God bless as we learn more!

  94. Roger (NZ) Apr 12th 2013

    This link takes one to an audio by David Pawson, titled, “God’s Eternal Covenant with Israel” – presented at a conference, possibly in the US..? and possibly in the 90’s..? (someone may be able to clarify date and place)

    About 60 mins, It is worth listening to, as D.P. speaks to the increasing errors in the church of ‘Replacment Theology’ and ‘Christian Zionism’, explaining that born-again Christians need to understand both the physical and spiritual aspects of this covenant, rather than just one or the other..

    In His love,

  95. Lightning Storm Apr 12th 2013

    AMEN….Andrew Strom.

    This is a “sore” subject because of so many false teachings out there…..but isn’t that WHY WE HAVE TO SEEK FOR THE TRUTH OF GOD BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT?

    NOT hide behind popular “ear tickling” opinions or TRADITIONS OF MEN.

    Thank you for bringing this out of the darkness and into the LIGHT.

    And there are so many ENLIGHTENING posts here that really shed some more Light on the subject.
    Thank You Jesus for the GLEANINGS.

  96. By the way, I am a Jew – a Jew inwardly, in the heart.

    Romans 2:29
    But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a HEART message, not a message for our minds.

  97. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @ Austin. One needs both. The NT saints had the Torah and the prophetic writings.
    They are valid and eternal.
    The law is a tudor (specifically the moral code – it is still intact and greatly enhanced).

    2 Peter 1:18-19
    We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.


  98. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    Carl – If it is Israel – and not the church – that is the “apple of God’s eye” (so to speak) in the New Covenant era, then we would not have seen Israel go through what she has been through in the last 2000 years.

    And I was using the phrase figuratively – not literally.

    I simply meant this: That under the New Covenant it is the CHURCH that is the focus of God’s plan to save mankind, not Israel. The Church after all is the “Bride of Christ” – with all that comes with such a position.

    Please do not make of that phrase more than was intended.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  99. In His Glory Apr 12th 2013

    I agree with you Andrew. The “Hebrew roots” movement has weakened the faith of many. Instead of simply “walking in the Spirit” they are trusting in rules & traditions – keeping the Jewish feasts, etc…. One said the difference is that those who “keep” the feasts/rules become “holy”. There is so much to learn from studying the Hebrew roots of our faith but it’s turned into almost a cult-like atmosphere. They feel so far “above” us simple paganized Gentile Christians. It’s pretty sad & puts a wedge in the unity of the Body of Christ.

  100. Those who are circumcised of the heart are Jews. Am I a gentile or am I a Jew? I am in Christ.

    When Christ returns He will burn up the elements. He is God, as Thomas confessed and Christ did not contradict. He is our dwelling place. Heaven and earth will pass away.

    I see.partiality. I see elitism. The building of a new class of superior brother and sister in Christ who have the rest of the story; who have surpassed the common name of Jesus and through superior knowledge, can’t use certain vowels. Yes, go ask such and such to fill in the blanks for you.

    Always a new ‘It’ crowd pressing to the front. Please, set us free from our ‘gentile’ ignorance and explain to me how I can be one of ‘you’ so I’m no longer one of ‘them’.

    1. Christ is sufficient. 2. He is the authority. 3. All power belongs to him.

    It is envy and pride that sets us against one another. It isn’t enough to be a humble servant and pray that we all find joy in sharing the Gospel and doing the work He gives each to do, but instead we give in to the urge to add our yeast to the bread.

    Lift up Jesus and He will draw all men unto Himself. Everything that detracts from Christ is foolishness. Why is this so difficult to understand? The old testament prepared for His coming. The New revealed Him to us.

    Jesus is the Word revealed to us. He is the completion of God’s work. He will return to wrap things up. He is our sustenance.

    If you have the Word and are sure of your salvation and are not satisfied. Instead of seeking others to make it more interesting and elitist, ask God to help you fall in love with Him. Really, truly, deeply in love with Him so that you know Him and you know that He loves you so that your obedience is an act of love and your confession is the joy of honoring the One who made you and formed you.

    Sound doctrine? Read the word. Pray for wisdom and understanding. Trust God and have Faith that God is more than willing to express His love to you in such a way that you have to step back each and every day and say “Wow! He really did it. He saved my soul.”

    Anything that detracts from Jesus Christ and the work of the Cross is setting itself up against Christ. Jew or gentile; all must contend with the Rock of salvation.

    Why do some want there to be a special group that ‘gets it’ or understands and says things or spells things in just the right way. Must you work so hard to inject envy, jealousy and division. Please teach me what to eat, how to speak and where to stand so I can be more acceptable so that Sufficient Grace is sufficient.

    Blaze Pascal. Same old song and dance. It’s just that the venue is now protestant. Yay us!

    Everybody wants to rule the world. I prefer Christ’s confession. “If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would be fighting for it.” You can have this world. Jesus has prepared a place for me, and there is plenty of room.

    You want the really special inside super duper scoop? It’s Jesus.

    My sudo-apology for my lack of tact but elitism makes me ill.

  101. Lightning Storm Apr 12th 2013

    By the way DonaldN, you are absolutely right.

    The Gregorian calendar rotates the days and dates of the week according to sunset and sunrise, which is why we have a “leap year”.

    The Ancient Hebrew calendar was created by Almighty God Himself and told His Priests to determine the First day of the Month and the First day of the Year BY THE PHASES OF THE MOON.
    ALL the Feasts that God established were also based on the PHASES OF THE MOON.

    So if you look at the Gregorian calendar, you will see that the NEW MOON changes from month to month and year to year.

    If you were to hold up the Gregorian calendar to a calendar that goes by the phases of the moon… will find out that the DAY OF REST, THE 7TH DAY, ROTATES AND LANDS ON ANY DAY OF THE Gregorian calendar.

    So much for Saturday/Sunday legalism.

  102. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    Nicely said, Lightning.


  103. I like your thoughts, Craig
    Fair dinkum downunderwriter David

  104. Scott K – Totally agree – very well spoken!

  105. Carl Emerson Apr 12th 2013

    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks for putting the context on your comment, I appreciate what you are saying. Sorry I took it too literally.

    I guess like Hosea who loved his wife who was in prostitution, God still loves his people the Jews with much patience and forbearance through thousands of years of rebellion and blindness.

    That is a Faithful God.

    Praise His name…

    Without Him, none would have survived to establish the Nation of Israel today.

    Carl Emerson.

  106. I was not born a Jew – but I am “circumcised in the heart.”

    I have received Him. I have softened my heart to Him. I have decided to follow Him. That is what circumcision is all about.

    The fallow ground of my heart has been tilled.

    Yes, I AM A JEW because I belong to Christ. This I learned not from some message but simply from time alone with the Lord (and Romans 2:29, as above).

    Once again, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a HEART MESSAGE. God looks on the heart above all things. He looks at motives and reasons why we do what we do.

    This is backed up time and time again in scripture.

  107. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    I had the privilege of studying in dealt the book of Romans first in undergrad course then in a graduate level course and then I committed to teaching and preaching through this book expositionally each Sunday for over 7 years.

    When one simply carefully and slowly READS through the text there are several very clear statements Paul makes concerning Isreal- all of which clarify the present state of confusion over the nation of Israel, the Gentiles, , the law, the gospel and the church. I spent almost two entire years teaching through these issues and to attempt to unpack them in a feelings is virtually impossible but here are some critical truths taught in The New Testament concerning Israel and the church.
    1. Their is NO SALVATION APART FROM PERSONAL FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST – for thee Jew or the Getntile- Peter stood up in front of an exclusively Jewish audience in Acts 3 and declared, “let all Osrael be assured of this: There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
    2. God – as a form of temporary judgement against Israel- did two things a) He hardened the hearts of MOST Jews for a season so that they would reject Gods only means of salvation ( Jesus) and b) God opened the hearts of millions of His elect from among the Gentiles so they by grace would embrace the gospel and in so doing this Gods purpose was to provoke Israel to jealousy
    3. God formed a new company of People consisting of the few elect Jews and the many elect Gentiles who by grace would believe on Jesus and be saved- this new company of believers in Jesus God would call “Israel” -( Paul clearly saying that “not all Israel is Israel” meaning being an ethnic and natural descendant of Isreal is no guarantee they would be part of the “true Israel” the essence of what Paul was saying here is that the church (which consists of beleivers in Messiah from among BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES the true Isreal . This new Israel now becomes Gods covenant people.

    4. This divine judicial hardening of the majority of ethnic and natural descendants of Abraham ( natural Israel) IS ONLY TEMPORARY until the full number of elect from among the Gentile nations come in. (these elect by grace from among the Gentile nations Jesus in Johns gospel refers to as “my other sheep that are not a part of this sheep pen. But they shall be one people with one shepherd ” )when the full number of elect from among the Gentiles come to Christ by Gids irresistible grace – (this occurring in the last days just prior to Christ’s second coming) then God will sovereignty cause the ENTIRE NATION of natural Israel at that time to come to faith in Jesus and so be saved. But make no mistake about it – no Jew that rejects Jesus up u til that time will be saved.
    5 In the last day when the entire nation of natural Israel comes to Christ – THEY TOO WILL BECOME MEMEBERS OF THE TRUE ISRAEL – the true covenant people of God – the church.

    5. This completed body of the people of Messiah consisting of the elect of all ages, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles from Old Testament times who looked forward to Messiahs death, consisting of the smattering remnant of Jews who by grace came to faith in Jesus from the early church days to the last days, consisting of every elect from among the Gentiles who by grace believed in Messiah AND consisting of the entire nation of Israel alive in the last days who by grace came to faith in Messiah just prior to Jesus second coming- THIS ENTIRE COMPANY OF BELIEVERS SHALL BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD , They shall
    receive tougher all the promises God made to Israel in both the Old and New Testaments-

    When these clear and obvious facts are considered there is little room left for confusion or controversy.

  108. Stephen Duplantis Apr 12th 2013

    I disagree with you Andrew. Israel mania is non existent in the church. Your article proves that–the majority of the church believes as you. Anti semitism at its best! You have lost your credibility with me by writing this anti Semitic BS!

  109. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    I have to add one last thought:
    This resurrected and glorified elect company of the redeemed from among the Jews and the Gentile nations shall live ON THE EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY!
    Heaven will BE ON EARTH PEOPLE! Heaven won’t be some ethereal and. On
    Physical place. heaven will be HERE ON THIS PHYSICAL EARTH ( albeit a resurrected and glorified physical earth.)
    Right now the only person in heaven who has a glorified PHYSICAL BODY IS JESUS – Everyone else who is in heaven idols not yet have a physical body, That will happen at the resurrection! Why is Jesus eternal glorified body PHYSICAL? Why will our eternal glorified bodies be PHYSICAL ? Because we will live on a PHYSICAL EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY!
    When the Bible says that the natural body can’t inherit immortality it isn’t saying our immortal eternal bodies will NOT BE PHYSICAL.
    This is the gnostic view of heaven and of eternity and has no foundation in biblical reality .

  110. Andrew Apr 12th 2013


    Not on your life!


  111. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    I recently read a study on the new creation. My conclusion is that it can be related to the Old covenant and the new Covenant. OT Israel, current Israel, and all gentiles are/were in Adam. Christ began a new creation, a new being. We that are in Christ are a new creation. This is not just a symbolic concept, but it is real. This is why there are no more Jews, gentiles, male or female. We are in Christ.

  112. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Stephen Duplantis. There is absolutely nothing anti Semitic in what Andrew has stated. That is a bogus and false accusation and I reject it outright. Why do you insist that it is anti semitic to state that no Jew will be saved and become a member of Messiahs body of Gods covenant people apart from faith in Messiah? Do you believe it is being anti- Gentile to state that Gentiles who reject the Savior will be lost forever? Please tell me you don’t really believe Jews who reject Jesus can be saved by some other means other than faith in Jesus.

    He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11, 12 NASB)

  113. Its Gods plan for us to live Holy lives. Is this not His plan from the beginning. Obedience to Him brings absolute Holiness. Surely not obedience for obedience sake. the objective is Holiness, just like He is. The 10 commands & covenant of the OT was for that purpose. Has the purpose changed? I think not. The Old covenant didn’t work as there was no ability to keep it. The new covenant is the same with the same objective….holiness….His likeness, except He gives us His Spirit (grace) to keep it & bring change.
    As I see it the covenants are not for covenants sake but to bring change in us & the purpose is still the same.
    Way back Marc Wildman made some excellent statements we’ll do well to read again.
    I agree with Andrews statements but the New is based on the old with the same objective. I think were saying the same thing differently?? King David had an excellent grasp on this concept of change within a person to make him a man after Gods heart & he knew it was not found in the law but finding God through the law.

    Go thru the 10 commands of Moses & ask yourself the question, Do I have to keep all the commands? (were NOT talking salvation here) If your answer is yes then why is the Sabbath included in the 10. Do we have 9 commands & 1 suggestion?
    Why did God not include the Sabbath in the other laws listed in Deut & elsewhere that were part of the ceremonial laws, now fulfilled in Christ Jesus?
    I am not SDA & I agree 100% with Andrews post on Israel

  114. Hey someone above said Israel is the vine! Jesus “I AM the vine – you are the branches.”
    Jesus is NOT “Israel”- nation or church.
    Pr Michael

  115. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Ian -we DO KEEP THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT – Not by keeping a certain day of the week but by fulfilling the reality of that shadow and type.

    Keeping the sabbath commandment is the fourth commandmentand comes BEFORE ALL THE OTHER HUMAN RELATIONAL COMMANDMENTS for a reason.
    The answer is in Hebrew 4a we keep the Sabaath (rest) by entering into salvation rest in Jesus. We keep the fourth commandment by resting from our own self effort labours and instead trusting Jesus to “work” in us and through us! This is true Sabbath keeping my friend.
    For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “A s I swore in M y wrath, T hey shall not enter M y rest,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “A nd G od rested on the seventh day from all H is works “; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. (Hebrews 4:3, 4, 6, 9, 10 NASB)

  116. It is regrettable that “Replacement Theology” is promoted by many Bible teachers who should know better! I have found two books very helpful on this subject:-
    ‘The Destiny of Israel and the Church’ by Derek Prince, and ‘The Messianic Church Arising’ by Robert D. Heidler”.
    Study of these two books gives one a balanced picture of the scriptural position.
    While I agree with Andrew that the two covenants should not be mixed, Gentile Christians as well as Messianic Jews can both benefit greatly from an apppreciation of the Jewish feasts, as they are types of key aspects of Christian doctrine.

  117. Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

    Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

    Zechariah 14:5=And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    Duet. 30 1-7 Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. IF any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. The the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Also the LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.

    The above verses don’t seem to be talking about the Church. In fact it appears that the Church, or some of the saints within the Church will be coming back with Jesus when He smites the mountain and creates the valley in Zech 14:5 above towards the end of the Wrath of the Vial period. This is possible because the Saints are transformed prior to the Wrath of the Vials.

  118. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    True, Harry

    Bless you!


  119. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Barry Schmidt

    You said `Heaven will be on earth.`

    Have you considered the following scriptures.

    Phil. 3: 20
    `For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ;…`

    Col. 1: 5
    `because of the hope laid up for you in heaven…`

    1 Peter 1: 4
    `to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable & unefiled & will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,…`


  120. “Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:37)

    The Heavens cannot be measured, as they are still being created and are expanding, new universes being born.(FACT) We cannot go under the earth and search out the hot magma and rock that are the foundations of the earth. (FACT)

    So…..God says if we can measure these things, and we CAN’T, He will cast off all the seed of Israel because of what they have done. Therefore He is not going to cast off all the seed of Israel.

    I would say that God never changes, and that this above scripture is just one more that cannot be refuted that clearly states that God is not going to cast off the seed of Israel….EVER! Israel is a nation…..and He will continue her….as a nation for His sake.

    The seed of Israel is genetic, DNA, it is not spiritual. He did not cast off the seed of Israel and replace it with the saints…nor will He. We will both inherit eventually……..and the role we play is different. We were grafted into the family, but we are not the seed of Israel. We are the Church, Spiritually united within the Holy Spirit, within the Eternal Father, within Jesus Christ, all One.

  121. If a Jewish person has not become a Christian before Christ returns, but recognizes Christ as His Messiah upon His return, that Jewish person (if he survives the Wrath) will go into the Mellinnium in his clay body and serve Christ there, until the final judgement at the end of the Mellinnium. All clay bodies, who do not follow satan when he is unbound during the last hour of the Mellinnium, will receive their transformed, Spiritual bodies that are like Christ’s, and they will also than be the bride of Christ. What occurs after that we have not been told. I do believe tho, being one with Christ and His Father, as Christ, Himself told us would happen before He left us, will allow us to measure the universe, and all other places that the Eternal Spirit resides.

  122. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Marylin: I don’t understand how my statement that heaven will be on earth in eternity future after the earth and the heavens are resurrected and glorified is in anyway in contradiction to the verses you have quoted.
    Revelation clearly teaches that THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM (the present place called heaven where the dead in Christ are now) WILL DESCEND TO THE EARTH ! Heaven hasn’t yet descended to the earth- that is why we fix our hearts and minds ” above” – but when heaven DESCENDS TO THE EARTH then heaven will be HERE!
    But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:13 NASB)
    Read all the promises of heaven in the Old Testament- every one of them refers to heaven on earth !

  123. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Kitty-I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3 NASB)

    Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NASB)

    Who was Jesus talking to but to an entirely Jewish audience when he said these things. Every Jew who rejects Jesus and refuses to believe in him IN THIS LIFE will perish and will die in his sins. Don’t ever give anyone Jew or Gentile false hope that they will somehow be saved in the last day if they reject Jesus today!

    for He says, “A t the acceptable time I listened to you, A nd on the day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is ” the acceptable time,” behold, now is ” the day of salvation “- (2 Corinthians 6:2 NASB)

  124. Roger (NZ)

    The Jewish Quarterly Review, July 1903, says:

    “The career of the Jews can be traced without difficulty … until the present day. Of that of the Israelites, however, nothing authentic is known after their departure from their fatherland to Halah and Habor … and the cities of the Medes. With the beginning of their captivity, they seem to have passed from all human knowledge”

    Interesting? .
    When Jesus spoke to those of His time He said ” the kingdom of heaven is taken from you, (Jews) and given to a nation that …..” If you are from NZ you must understand that all Maoris are New Zealanders but all New Zealanders are not Maoris. so also with Israel – ten tribes and Judah Benjamin two tribes.
    Pr Michael

  125. Barry, for about 40 years I taught what you have said & there is a truth in it but it doesn’t answer the question. The other 9 commands are all practical & stand today as they are. Why is only one a “type or shadow”? Who says we must change that one? Why not change them all then? We can fulfill all the 9 “in the spirit” & let the flesh do as it likes because we “have the righteousness of Christ”. They’re all “fulfilled in Christ” & we don’t have to “do” them….just like the Sabbath!!!!
    Now that’s rubbish but I say it for the arguments sake.
    Pauls “let no one judge you in sabbaths etc is just that. Don’t judge, he didn’t say we mustn’t do it?

    My question is. Why one type & shadow we don’t have to do & 9 practical just as stated in the Bible?
    Nine commands & one suggestion??? 🙂 🙂
    I have asked many pastors & not one has given a satisfactory answer & all go away thoughtful about it.
    Be Blessed my brother

  126. Averyl Apr 12th 2013

    Bill, – Amen!

    For me, every day is a Sabbath/holy day/day of resting in Him.

    And all I possess belongs to Him & is at His disposal, not just 10%.

    Circumcised in heart, not the fleshly type, – but “they” don’t lay that one on us for obvious reasons!

  127. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Michael- it is an enormous stretch to to claim that the nation of Israel today are not the true natural genetic descendants of Abraham and are not directly genetically related to the original tribes of Israel.

    The Bible prophesied they would come back into the land in the latter days to repossess it before the appearing of Messiah.
    The “nation” that Jesus was referring to that would receive the kingdom was NOT SOME SPECIFIC GENTILE NATION AS YOU ASSUME. Jesus was referring to the “royal priesthood and the holy NATION which Peter also refered to when he spoke of the church.

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen (1 Peter 1:1 NASB)
    But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of G od; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:9, 10 NASB)
    Clearly this “nation” Jesus spoke of that the kingdom would be given to was the body of Messiah consisting of BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES

  128. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. (Romans 14:5, 6, 10 NASB)

    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16, 17 NASB)

    First of all how is keeping the Sabbath by entering into Jesus salvation rest NOT PACTICAL?
    Second- the reason we can make the fourth commandment a type and a foreshadow IS BECAUSE THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS IT IS!
    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16, 17 NASB)

    I didn’t say that- GOD SAID THAT!

  129. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    The Sabbath was put in place LONG BEFORE the Ten Commandments were legislated at Mt Sinai.
    For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “A nd G od rested on the seventh day from all H is works “; (Hebrews 4:4 NASB)
    Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (Genesis 2:3 NASB)
    We don’t keep the Sabbath merely because it was commanded to the Jews in the Ten Commandments.
    We keep the spirit of the Sabbath because it ALWAYS WAS a FORSHADOWING PICTURE (type) of the divine rest of which we believers now enjoy. We believers DO KEEP THE SABBATH- not merely the shadow but the REALITY!

  130. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Barry Schmidt.

    Thank you for your reply. I`m trying to see what you are saying. Is this what you mean –

    That heaven on earth – means `the new Jerusalem` which comes `down out of heaven,` is heaven? Heaven out of heaven???

    Wouldn`t it be more correct to say there will be a New earth in which the nations dwell, (Rev. 21: 24) & there will be the New Jerusalem where the spirits of just men made perfect, with new bodies, dwell, (Heb. 12: 23) & then there is the third realm where Christ`s throne is & where the King Priests rule & reign with Him.
    (Rev. 3: 21)


  131. Ron Runyon Apr 12th 2013

    I find it Interesting that you see the New Covenant in Scripture, yet you fail to quote it from Scripture. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    God’s word as He gave us in Jer 31:31 does not state that He is making a New Covenant with the Church does it? May be the words written there have a different meening than what God Says.
    No Spiritual Israel just Israel, the children of God. The Israel of God was and is and will always be His Chosen People, we as believers in Jesus are grafted in to Israel.
    The Nation spoken of be Jesus is Israel and all who will are grafted into Israel.
    All with ears to hear by the Word of Truth, can see what the Scriptures teach so clearly in the whole of the Word.

  132. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    The irony is this: that if you legislate the Sabbath – you are breaking the Sabbath because true Sabbath keeping is RESTING from self effort law keeping .
    The ONLY PERSON who could legally work on the Sabbath was the PRIEST.
    Jesus OUR HIGH PRIEST is the ONLY person who can “work” at keeping Gods laws , statutes and ordinances IN US. we are commands to rest on the Sabbath- OUR ENTIRE CHRISTIAN LIFE FROM START TO FINISH IS “THE SABBATH REST” . Thus we are forbidden from “working” at self effort.
    To enforce and legislate the Sabbath is actually to break the Sabbath!

  133. Barry S
    Yep, and it is a type of “Heaven” to be filled with the Holy Spirit!
    Heaven is not just a place but a also a state of being.
    Pr Michael.

  134. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    While it is true that the new covenant is made “with the house of Israel” ALL ISRAEL ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE NEW COVENANT.


    The entire book of Hebrews is pleading with natural born Jews to “enter into this New Covenant”
    If as you say all Natural born Israelis are included in the new covenant then you must reject over 100 verses in the New Testament pleading with them to believe.

    You are giving Jews who reject faith in Jesus false hope my friend and you will have to give account for every Jew that perishes that you have given false hope to.

    Apart from personal faith in Jesus and personal repentance – EVERY JEW IS LOST AND IS NOT A RECIPIENT OF THE NEW COVENANT!

  135. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Ron- if every natural born Jew is an automatic recipient and beneficially of the New Covenant – then why did Jesus and Peter and Paul lay down their live PREACHING TO THOSE JEWS TO REPENT AND BELIEVE.?
    Why did Jesus bother to warn them natural born Jews (Israel) that if they didn’t repent and believe the gospel TNEY WOULD PERISH!

    No my friend you are deeply mistaken- ONLY those Jews and Gentiles WHO BELIEVE AND REPENT are forgiven, are given a new heart of flesh and have Gods laws written on their hearts. Only Israel THAT BELIEVES IN JESUS enjoys the New Covenant

  136. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Marylin – no ” the spirits of just men” who are in heaven now IS ONLY A TEMPORARY STATE AND PLACE . Those ” spirits of men” will ONCE AGAIN BE GIVEN PHYSICAL resurrected eternal bodies when Jesus comes back to earth.
    Everyone who is in heaven now does not net have a
    Their eternal physical glorified body. That is why they are “spirits of men made perfect” now.

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 52 NASB)

    You see here Marilyn how the dead in Christ ( who are now merely spirits in heaven) won’t receive their resurrected body until ” at His coming”?

    Why don’t they need their resurrected body now? Why will they need their resurrected body then? Because heaven is coming to the earth- to this physical earth- you need a physical body to live on this earth. Heaven will be on the earth. It won’t be merely “the nations” that will live on this earth after Jesus returns. It will be ALL who are now in heaven only as spirits and it will be all of us who remain and who will be changed when Jesus returns.

    You see Jesus has a PHYSICAL BODY NOW- and when He comes He will have THAT SAME PHYSICAL BODY- and all of Jesus people will have a body JUST LIKE JESUS HAS. It is a PHYSICAL BODY TO ,I’VE ON ON A PHYSICALLY RESSURECTED AND GLORIFIED EARTH. Earth and heaven will,be one and the same place my Sister!

    Many Christian are ignorant of this fact. They think they will be as mere spirits in a non physical heaven. god lives the physical body and the physical earth so. Much that he chose to exist eternally in one and God will choose to live here on earth for ever and ever!

  137. This has all been interesting reading. The past three of four years I have been looking at HRM with keen interest and have learned many things in the process. I do believe much of what’s being taught is valid, though as with any other movement/denomination you will find error. The question I ponder is this: Is Hebrew Roots Movement to be feared? That same question can be asked of any movement or denomination and the answer will be as varied as there are people who would answer the question.

    The problem lies with each of us, as we tend to adhere to certain doctrines because that’s what we have been taught or learned, thereby refusing to accept any other possible considerations of understanding. In other words we have become stubborn and refusing to open our eyes to other possibilities. (Understand I am speaking in generalities and this may or may not apply to each individual.)

    Yeshua (Jesus) spoke quite frequently of those adhering to traditions of men rather than the Word of God. This is something that appears to have infected many of us because we have learned traditions rather than sound doctrine. It matters not which denomination you consider they have all been infected with religion and traditions.

    The point I’m wishing to make is that we are each responsible before Abba Father to learn of His truth as we diligently seek Him via the Holy Spirit and His Word. Do we not all learn deeper Truth and gain great understanding as we grow and mature in Him? Is there not one of us who has not changed various viewpoints as we gain new understanding? Is there one of us that has complete understanding of the fullness of God’s Truth? Absolutely NOT! It’s easy to point fingers and make accusations against the brethren because they lack this truth or that, yet we fail to realize that error lies in each one of us – granted, some more so than others.

    Of course there is error being taught in Hebrew Roots Movement, but there is also truth that can be found there. We would all be foolish to take in as truth everything that’s being stated in any given institution. However, we are responsible before Abba to learn of Him directly, not to imply that man cannot teach us, as His Word is Truth. The problem is with interpretation and our understanding. So, when we study His Word are we open to His Spirit to reveal His Truth to us, or are we relying on men or institutions exclusively for our enlightenment?

    It’s beneficial that we share our understanding of the scriptures one with another, but to take care that we are not pointing fingers, presenting ourselves as “better than thou” or putting another individual down because they are in error. As we share one with another we should be open to what the Holy Spirit may be saying through others that may in fact reveal greater Truth to us. If, on the other hand, we hold fast to what we believe because we don’t want to be proven wrong, then we err by having such an attitude.

    So where does that Truth lie in this matter? We need to allow the Holy Spirit to give us guidance. Does His Word not declare that it is the Holy Spirit that guides us into all Truth? Too many of us want to take on the role of the Holy Spirit and to do so is treading on dangerous ground. In other words, feel free to share what’s on your heart, but leave it up to the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to each one.

    Also, we need to check our own motives as to why we speak out on any given matter. Are we truly responding to the gentle move of the Holy Spirit within us, or are we trying to prove we have the correct answers?

    Though I can’t answer for anyone other than myself, I do appreciate what Andrew shared with us. I believe he has the right heart, though I may not entirely agree with him, but neither am I going to dispute what he has shared, nor what anyone else has shared, for that matter. It is my posture to believe that each person has spoken what they believe is truth and leave it to the Holy Spirit to sort through all this to give correction where it is due. We simply need to be willing to permit His Spirit to accomplish that in us.

    I would like to recommend a book that better addresses the points I’m trying to make. The book is, “EPIDEMIC: Examining the Infected Roots of Judaism and Christianity”, written by Russ Houck, Ph.D., Th. This is the result of 30 years research and study he has made and deals with much that is in error throughout Judeo-Christian doctrines. This does not mean he is 100% correct in his understanding, but he certainly does point out many things that do not line up with the Word and is surely worth the read. I have found this author to be humble in spirit and open to correction, as he has had to make many adjustments throughout his walk in the Spirit.

  138. Re: Replacement – Israel and the Church

    Shalom, shalom,


    It does not matter if you believe this word or not it will surely come to pass just as day follows night.

    If every word of this prophecy does not come to pass exactly as I have stated, then I am not sent by YHWH and I am a false prophet indeed. May YHWH deal with me ever so severely (even unto immediate death that the saints of Heaven might re-learn the fear of YHWH), if I have presumed to swear falsely and proclaim in His most set-apart name what He has not proclaimed.

    On September 5th this year, the western economy will collapse and never recover. This will cause every born again, Spirit-filled believer to cry out in prayer and desperate humility like never before. In answer to this universal cry the voice of the Spirit will say, “You are not the church, you are Yisrael the chosen bride of my Son – (Hoshea 1&2). Come out of her My people!”

    Thus fulfilling the prophecies of YirmeYahu 16:19 and the final outcome of the narrative of Esther (Esther means concealed / hidden until the appointed time comes). The bride (Yisrael) will humble herself for three full years and cry out for Yahudah to be saved (both physical and spiritual salvation.)

    At this exact same time, there will be a universal cry from everyone who is not born again and filled with the Spirit and that cry will be for every Jew on this planet to be put to death immediately. Even if you have 1% Jewish blood they will demand your death, whether you believe in the Messiah or not.

    During this time YHWH will supernaturally provide for and protect His people (I.e. the whole house of Yisrael)… Without money!

    Thus fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah 16:14-15 and the prophecy of the first two years of the great famine in the days of Joseph.

    On the 2nd anniversary (from September 6th 2013) on YHWH’s set-apart calendar, the chief Rabbi of the NATION STATE of ISRAEL (Properly known as Yahudah in the Scriptures) will repent of the covenant of death that Caiaphas made with Pontius Pilate and will proclaim that Yahoshua of Nazareth is the Messiah. In that day every Yahudite (Jew) will be saved by favour through faith. By revelation the veil will be removed and the Messiah will be revealed to every heart single heart of the Yahudim (I.e. The Jews).

    Thus fulfilling the prophecy of Benyamin being found guilty with the cup of Joseph in His hand and Yahudah humbling himself on behalf of his brother in true repentance at the end of the second year of the seven years of famine.

    Thus also fulfilling the Pharisee Shaul’s (Acts 23:6) words as recorded in Romans 11:23-29 and the prophecy of Joseph revealing himself to the whole house of Yisrael and their immediate response of prostrating themselves before him and worshiping him in spirit and in truth.

    On September 1st 2016 the bride will be taken by the Groom and they will proceed to the wedding chamber that the Groom has prepared for the bride of covenant.

    There is much, much more that I could say about the events that will transpire from this time forward. However, at this time it is completely unnecessary.

    The bottom line is this… Every born again and Spirit-filled believer is going to be awakened to their true identity on September 6th of this year. The bride will be purified for the following three years, Yahudah will be saved in the second year and all the nations will be judged in their sin and brought into subjection under Yahoshua’s feet.

    In Sincerity and in Truth,

    Rabbi Robert Arthur McDuffie
    Johannesburg, South Africa

  139. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Barry Schmidt. Thank you again for your reply.I`m still trying to get my head around the way you use the word `heaven.`

    Do you mean the rulership of heaven will be on earth? That to me would make much more sense as heaven is refered to in scripture as three realms. The atmospheric heavens, the celestial heavens & the third heaven.

    Also I do agree that those in the general assembly are awaiting their new bodies. We agree on much except where our destiny lies.

    May God continue to enlighten us all. Marilyn.

  140. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    P.S. We have certainly kept you busy today Barry, coming to you from all quarters. Bless you & your family. Marilyn.

  141. Sue Walsh Apr 12th 2013

    Hello all. This discussion truly blesses me. It is not an easy one. We are in the season of the Counting of the Omer which recounts the journey the Israelites made from Egypt, through the desert wastes, to the revelation of God at Mount Sinai, when the Torah was given. The feast of Shavuot or Pentecost is a shadow of that time. This step-by-step journey through the wilderness was a time of trial and testing. All your comments show you are all truly testing your theology. It is about time we did an audit of our beliefs.

    My life and faith walk has changed dramatically since I have started keeping and having a greater understanding of Yaweh’s feasts. i have come out of Pagan practices of Christmas and Easter.and Sunday keeping church., it feels good. Yeshua is right in Yaweh’s appointed times and the true Sabbath believe me. This walk is very challenging . However i have never felt so much peace. My love and Shalom to you all because I know how hard it is.

  142. Father, descend on this thread and bring revelation of Your Truth…

    We all have parts of it – I pray Lord – that You would bring it all together for Your Own Glory and show us how it all fits together…

    Open our eyes to see Your Plan and let us see it in the revelation of Your Holy Spirit – from scripture – not from the inspiration of our own unregenerate minds trying to piece all the pieces together…

    Only You can put it all together for Your Glory – Glorify Your Name in our midst and let the Light – of Jesus Christ – shine on Your truth and let us understand the significance of Israel – the nation – and the Church and how Israel – the nation – will soon become saved and a part of the Church…

    One new man in Christ…

    Open our eyes to see Your Truth – and to see Your truth in Jesus Mighty Name – Bless the Lord O my soul…


    Cover this thread with Your Presence Lord…

    And let Your Truth, your truth come forth in Jesus Name,


  143. Roberta Apr 12th 2013

    “DO NOT THINK that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. FOR TRULY I SAY TO YOU UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OR STROKE SHALL PASS AWAY FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others. shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-19.

    “Do not think” means–don’t even let it enter your mind–case closed.

    “Until heaven and earth pass away” — this HASN’T HAPPENED YET!!!

    “Until all is accomplished”–He is not finished yet!!!!

    If you believe that Paul is preaching that the law is done away with, then Paul is either preaching another gospel or he is being misunderstood–as Peter points out in 2Peter 3:15

    The Jerusalem Council: Acts 15:19-21 ” Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled and from blood. FOR MOSES FROM ANCIENT GENERATIONS HAS IN EVERY CITY THOSE WHO PREACH HIM SINCE HE IS READ IN THE SYNAGOGUES EVERY SABBATH.”

    Clearly, what is being said here is that FIRST the Gentiles needed to abstain from the four things listed and then SECOND, THEY WOULD BE IN THE SYNAGOGUE LEARNING MOSES EVERY SABBATH. It was understood that the Gentiles didn’t know God’s HOLY Law and they weren’t expected to learn it overnight. This would take time.

    Everyone quotes the beginnings of these passages but they never follow through and quote the verses following–which is all about context. They quote Jesus fulfilling the Law, but never the verse about until heaven and earth passing away or about being least in the kingdom. They quote the Jerusalem Council but neglect to mention that we gentiles would/should be learning Moses every Sabbath–the 7th day Sabbath–the one that God instituted as a memorial to creation–the one that Jesus and all of His followers kept. The Jesus that was in complete and total submission to His Father. The Jesus that kept the Law perfectly, lest He be disqualified as our perfect sacrifice. The Jesus that told us to be perfect, thank God, with His grace. The Jesus that said “go and sin no more”.

    Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.”

    Question: Who enters the Kingdom of Heaven
    Answers: Those who do the will of My Father
    Question: Who are the only people that call Jesus “Lord”?
    Answer: Believers.
    Question: Who casts out demons and performs miracles in His name?
    Answer: Believers
    Question: Why would professing believers not enter the kingdom of heaven?
    Answer: Because they practiced lawlessness–which is NOT the will of the Father.

    SOMEONE, PLEASE RESPOND TO ALL OF THESE VERSES AND TELL ME HOW YOU GET AROUND THE WORDS OF THE KING OF KINGS!! And, please, don’t use the misunderstood words of Paul for your response. I have written the words that Jesus Himself spoke, so please respond in kind with words that He spoke that contradicts the above.

    Every King rules and governs with laws. The kingdom of heaven within you is the laws written in your heart so that you may DO them and therefore live by the kingdom rules here and now until He establishes His kingdom in all the earth when every knee will bow to Him because they will see the truth, wisdom and beauty in every law that He Himself established. When they say Jesus is the Word–it means that HE IS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE LAW and if that is what He is, that is what WE are supposed to be because we are the BODY. He said His yoke is not burdensome–it is light. The burden was the multitude of additional laws that the Pharisees added. If you don’t study His laws, you have no way of knowing what was added. It’s like a counterfeit dollar–you have to study the genuine article before you can tell a fake. The religious leaders today tell us that the law was done away with. As you can see from the above verses–that’s a lie. Unless of course Jesus was the kind of guy that didn’t mean what He said.

    The Hebrew Roots Movement is just a name. It’s a group of people that have read the Scriptures, it’s a group of people that Hear the words of Jesus clearly. It’s a group of people who are saved by grace through the Messiah and their love for Him and His Father compels them to honor, cherish and uphold every commandment–that is the Spirit at work. The definition of love in the bible IS keeping His commandments. Please don’t tell me that Jesus had different commandments from His Father–they were One and the same and in COMPLETE AND TOTAL AGREEMENT.

    P.S. The church has been hardpressed to evangelize Jews because any scripturally knowledgeable Jew knows that God gave the Sabbath FOREVER and that Christmas and Easter are pagan days. How on earth do you think you can wooooo a Jew with that? As far as they are concerned your Jesus cannot be the Messiah because God told them in Deuteronomy that anyone that teaches against the commandments of God is a false Prophet. So, now, all of a sudden they are supposed to believe you instead of God–give up His Holy days and His Holy things and then what, shout “Yippee the Messiah is a lawbreaker. Good grief–how absolutely ridiculous. If everyone preached the true Messiah that kept His fathers commandments and, that we as disciples–“disciplining” ourselves to walk as He walked are supposed to follow Him and DO WHAT HE DID, we might stand a chance of bringing them to jealousy. Afterall, they think the Holy things of God are theirs–and while the holy scriptures were entrusted to them, they belong to us too!!!

    Maybe then the Jews will say” Baruch haba b’shem Adonai. (Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.) And our glorious Messiah will return.

  144. For those who are trying to be saved by keeping the Law are putting themselves outside of the Grace of God – they are resisting the Grace of God…

    If you keep the Law in every single point and yet fail to keep it in one then you are guilty of breaking the entire Law and once you’ve broken just one commandment you are forever guilty and the blood of bulls and goats can never take away your sin…

    If you are trusting Jesus’ Sacrifice to take away your sin – all your sin – then for you – who are trusting in God’s Grace – your faith in Jesus’ Sacrifice is credited to you as Righteousness – once and for all…

    You can’t have it anywhere in between…

    It’s either one or the other…

    Which one will it be?

  145. Miller Apr 12th 2013

    This subject has greatly distressed me over recent years. I see MANY (particularly in America, Europe and some parts of Africa) mixing the Old and New Covenants and are being filled with deception.

    I have observed that EVERY false prophet/prophetic ministries that I’m aware of ALWAYS incorporate “law”/OT principles into their teachings/beliefs. In fact, that is one of the biggest indicators of them being in the flesh verses the Spirit of God.

    For those of us who live in the Middle East and weekly interact with physical Israel, we find their FRUITS to be more of the Whore working with the Beast (Islam) than God’s “chosen people.” Can God graft them in again? Yes. Does He keep a remnant every generation? Yes. But as it says in Galations, more will be going to hell than in the kingdom of God because those of Sinai HAVE NO INHERTIANCE with Abraham and his children.

  146. Paul FC Apr 12th 2013

    I agree with you Andrew. (not read all the posts so sorry if I repeat what someone else said)

    I attended a Messianic Church for a couple of years, unfortunately they became quite legalistic and we had to leave. Long story, but It seems to be a common problem with Jewish/Christian fellowships.

    We also have the danger of the dual covenant theology that some prominent Church leaders ascribe to. Essentially this teaches that Christ died for the Church and we live under the New, however God already has a special relationship with the Jewish people and they live under the Old Covenant. Consequently what this means is that we should not preach the gospel to the Jews as they are already saved. What heresy!

  147. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    To understand the transition of the Law of Moses to the law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus for Jews who know the law (ie Rom 7:1 for I am speaking to those who know the law).
    It is very complex and in chapter Rom 6,7, and 8.

    Please note the law of Sin & Death is eternal and is intact.

    However, so the new law of Life of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

    Rom 8:4 in order that the laws requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    The new covenant is the dejure righteousness by the blood of Christ. If one follows the commandments of Christ and the Apostles – this will lead to defacto righteousness through the assistance of the Holy Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the old man and old nature.

    It is a vastly superior covenant through the means of forgiveness as well as enablement to remove sin (results is defacto righteousness which results in eternal life).

    “Behold the Lamb of G_D who takes away the sin of the world”. Notice not just forgive – but takes away……..The blood of lambs, goats, bulls was used to forgive transgressions but it could never remove…


  148. Roberta

    Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, “till the seed should come” to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Law)

    That really says it all

    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in “of a better hope” did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of “a better covenant” which was established upon “better promises”

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, “that he may establish the second”

    He “taketh away the first”

    That “He may establish the second”

    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus “the mediator of the new covenant” and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

    The Law ONLY covered sin, it did not take away or forgive sin.


  149. Amen Ken to your post immediately above, Amen brother… 🙂

  150. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    I think something that is often missed – the Jews at the time had the Torah as well the Talmud in place. And to ask a devot Jew to step away from certain aspects is asking quite a bit (Peter had a bit of problem with Kosher food remember and was later rebuked by Paul to his face). As mentioned – Gentile proselytes from Judaism is rare and pretty much non existent in Western civilization for centuries.
    To bring up cerimonial Jewish law is a bit of non sequituar unless is has been transcended much like circumcision( Spiritual) or tithing (give as you lead or directed to give by the Holy Spirit) or Sabbath (labor to enter in the eternal sabbath)

    There are 3 aspects of Levitical law – moral, cerimonial, and social.
    The moral law is intact under the New Covenant and in fact greatly expanded as has the ability (favor) to accomplish it.

    It to note – the scriptures clearly show – Paul still observed the levitical law in terms of social, cerimonial, and moral aspects – by Nazarene vow, observing feast days, and behavior with Jewish religious leaders.
    In addition, the instructions given the churches are from Levitical cerimonial / social/ moral laws.


  151. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @ Ken1 – the law specifically pointed out the sin and the blood of the sacrifice covered it. As mentioned – it never remove it.

    The only way to remove sin is to repent and walk in the Spirit of Life of in Christ Jesus to produce defacto righteousness which will produce eternal life. This is “overcoming” and being “born again”

    As Paul mentioned in Rom 7
    What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if pthe law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

    But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. rApart from the law, sin lies dead.

    I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

    The very commandment sthat promised life proved to be death to me.

    For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

    So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

  152. It’s the Blood – that removes our sin… 🙂

    Thank You Jesus… 🙂

  153. Andrew J Horton 🙂

  154. Amen Andrew J

  155. Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    The Church (The Mystery) was a secret hidden in the mind of God, from Eternity past and revealed through one man (Paul)

    Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (KJV)

    “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men”


  156. Barry I assure you I do realize that if you quote the bible, then God said it, I don’t need to be reminded!!!

    Amazing how we see the same thing from a different angle. Say the same thing differently.
    For me all of us were saved buy Christ Jesus..already explained many times above, this cannot change.
    The issue now is how is He going to lead me in life, not to get, or stay saved, but how I work out my salvation with fear & trembling. So getting saved & living the christian life in the spirit are 2 issues.
    In living it the Lord will lead me to do all the things contained in the law out of an inward compulsion of the Holy Spirit.
    Trouble is, if anyone mentions the Law or OT they are shouted down about how were saved by grace.
    The NT has as many “laws” as the old. Love your wives, is that a command/law or a suggestion. Every time you tell someone what to do it’s a command/law if it’s in the Bible. read the bible is a command, we must pray is a command. DO we do them to get saved? No, but because were saved. Just because it’s in the OT do we not have to do it then? Read the Psalms & see what the law did for David.
    “study the scriptures” God said (law/command) to show yourself a workman approved. What scriptures? the OT which is mostly the law. the law must be used correctly.

    Now regarding salvation & the law:
    One CANNOT rightly preach the Gospel without the law.
    We tell people to get saved & how the Lord Jesus died for them & they don’t understand it because they don’t know the Holiness of God, the sinfulness of man & Gods requirement.
    what brings us to Christ? Not the Gospel, its the law. The law is the schoolmaster & we want to get folk saved without them knowing why they need it.
    Christians also need the law, in fact we preach it every time we tell someone what to do. We need it to chase us to Christ. It’s the rejection of the schoolmaster that has led the charge of hyper-grace and the sin in the churches. bring back the law & people will rush to Christ for salvation. The gospel is the answer to my lawlessness/sin but i don’t know I need the gospel till I know the law, & the better I know the law the more I realize my need for Christ, bless his wonderful name & until I am perfectly walking in the spirit I will need the law to keep me going back to Christ, then there is no law if I only produce the fruit of the Spirit in my life.

    Barry you have not done what my schoolteacher said we must do before writing our exam (some 55+yrs ago). Read the question twice, think about the answer, then write.
    Go back, read my question carefully, then answer just the question regarding Sabbath, & when i read your answer I will remember that what the bible says, if you quote it, God said it, not you.

  157. What Jesus said to Pilate before He gave Himself to be sacrificed clearly points to the Truth that is so difficult to grasp: heaven and earth did pass away for those who receive the work accomplished by Christ at His death, resurrection and ascension. The Kingdom of Heaven is among us. It is in our hearts. We are transferred from the kingdom of this world (darkness) into the kingdom of heaven (light). We who are crucified with Christ are supposed to allow Christ to live through us as we reside with Him. This is our living faith.

    Yes, we still reside in this world, but our citizenship is in heaven. In this way, Christ ministers through us to bring others into the kingdom of heaven. Christ within you and within me is greater than the law and has replaced the tabernacle.

    What is accomplished by bringing those who are in His liberty under law? Is it not the attempt to subject Christ Himself, and the work He accomplished, to the failed works of the law? Is it not dangerous to subject freedom through Christ to the administrations of man.

    Jesus said to Philip “Do you not recognize me?”. On the Cross He cried out “It is finished!”

    What a great sacrifice! The One who made us gave up His own life as payment, to redeem us. It is finished. Heaven and earth passed away and we are now seated with Him in heavenly places. This is our Faith. I encourage us all to gaurd carefully our freedom in Christ. It is the most precious resource on this remaining earth. It is the light shining through us from Heaven above and within us. It may feel good to express ones faith through ritual. We all do this in one form or another, but it is dangerous to make our selves slaves to these things or to assert ourselves over others by injuring their consciences.

    Christ in us. This was and is the great miracle of God.

    Let us give account for the hope that is in us because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts.

    May we all rest in Him.

    (Do you not recognize Him? He dwells within your heart. In my heart? I make it so difficult for my Lord and Savior. My life is the struggle not to find His rest, but to simply accept it. But I do and He Is the Sabbath.

  158. The fact is that the Lord’s land of Israel is still the Lord’s land of Israel.

    The fact is that all of the Lord’s people will spend eternity in His Holy City, the New Jerusalem, in the Land of Israel (Rev. 21).

    The fact is that all Covenant people of the Lord will be saved by the Lamb of God, Yeshua, whether they know His name yet or not.

    The Lord knows those that are His.

    The fact is that Yeshua told the House of Judah (Jews), His Jewish brethren, that He had other sheep not of their fold that He had to bring in.

    The fact is that Yeshua told the House of Judah (Jews), that He came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel (scattered sheep among Gentiles) who had been driven out over 900 years before Yeshua was born in the flesh.

    The fact is that Yeshua said you can identify His sheep as only those who hear His voice and follow Him.

    The fact is that the Lord will eventually lift the veil off of the House of Judah’s (Jews) minds in the latter days, so then they will behold Him whom they had pierced and mourn as one who mourns for an only begotten son.

    The fact is that both Covenant people (house of Judah and House of Israel) will be reunited in the Lord’s land that He gave them and they will no longer be two nations of people but one nation with one God, and His name will be called the Lord Our Righteousness.

    In fact, the Festivals of the Lord are an EVERLASTING sign with all of His Covenant people that the LORD is the justifier of His people and He is their redeemer.

    Sadly, the House of Israel was banished 3000 years ago from the land for violating the sign of FESTIVALS which contained Sabbath days. The Sabbaths and the Festivals with their Sabbath days are PLEASING to the LORD, and are a SIGN, not a qualifier, that He is the justifier and Redeemer.

    Interestingly the House of Judah keeps the Lord’s Festivals (signs of HIS justification and redeeming power), but the House of Israel does not. So, it’s no wonder the sheep of the House of Israel are still in exile from the LORD’s LAND.

    But the exile/dispersion of His sheep, the House of Israel (fullness of gentiles), will soon be reunited in the land.

    Why, because they are the true God-pleasers who hear His voice and follow Him. The will know what pleases Him and do it!

  159. watchful Apr 12th 2013

    What I see is that we are tested and tried by His word………..when the Lord wants to restore a revelation to His blood-bought people the first thing it reveals is the flesh. And that’s what I see has happened with the Hebrew Roots movement. But that doesn’t nullify the word, what God means by it. The things He has shown me personally about the Jews must also be tested and tried. But it is all in the scriptures. Please let us pray for the Jews, and have no arrogance or judgments towards them, for they are loved on account of the patriarchs, oh yes they are! Just see how much they are loved by how much the Father disciplines them……………………and pray for their comforting/salvation.

    If we keep one part of the Law we are obligated to keep all of it……..but who can keep all of it? I was soundly rebuked by the Lord one year for attending a Passover at a neighbourhood church….He showed in no uncertain terms how displeasing it was to Him, oh my, a lesson i will never forget. Sackcloth and ashes, forgive me Father! When you think about it the Passover is the sacrifice of a lamb, and our Lamb has already been sacrified, so we don’t need an animal….so to sacrifice an animal is that not an abomination for believers and an insult to the Lamb that was already slain?

  160. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    There are actually 3 covenants, not just 2

  161. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    (no I am not talking about Joe Smiths third one)

  162. Yes, now we can keep the FESTIVALS of the LORD, which He set up as an EVERLASTING SIGN, a sign that He is our JUSTIFIER and REDEEMER, not the law or any other thing.

    Now that we know the LAMB of the PASSOVER, we can PLEASE the LORD with the knowledge of HIS sacrifice for our debt of sin. His sacrifice alone delivers from eternal death. It is this we celebrate!!!! We do not need to sacrifice any other lambs, but we are to BE living sacrifices as we LISTEN and OBEY HIM, because it PLEASES HIM, not because it saves us.

    Interestingly, when Yeshua returns to Israel and rules from Jerusalem for 1000 yeras, He will cause all the survivors from among the nations to celebrate HIS FESTIVAL of Succott, Tabernacles. All nations refusing to honor Yeshua by keeping HIS FESTIVAL, will NOT receive rain that year.

  163. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    It’s “The (NEW) Covenant”

    Not, The RE-Newed Covenant.

    The Bread & Wine is for The NEW Deal.

    It’s not the same Meal.

  164. Sandra G. Apr 12th 2013

    May all be blessed.
    JOHN 15: 4 & 5
    Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye except ye abide in me.
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    In HIS grace

  165. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    The sun rises early in the morning. Your loved one is walking down the path. The sun casts a long shadow that you can see, but you don’t yet see Him. You rejoice with the shadow because it shows you He is coming soon. When He arrives, will you greet Him and then return to the shadow and worship the shape of Him? Will He not think you are really stupid?
    When He arrives the shadow will be ignored because is is no longer relevant.

  166. Brothers and Sisters,

    You should read this:

    You may be unaware of this, but the vast majority of Christian authors, radio hosts and television producers who talk about “the end times” have accepted a unique system of prophetic interpretation called “Dispensationalism.” Whether these teachers themselves even recognize this not-so-small detail or not, one thing is obvious: they usually place the Jewish people at the epicenter of events predicted to strike planet Earth before the end of the world. Unfortunately, the system of Dispensationalism itself has major flaws. Not only that, but it also includes some surprisingly anti-Jewish elements, as you are about to see.

    Generally speaking, Dispensationalism teaches that God has worked throughout fallen human history in distinct phases, epochs, or “dispensations.” In Old Testament times, He worked through “Israel” and required Jews to keep “the law,” whereas in these New Testament times He operates through “the Church” and proclaims “salvation by grace”—that is, until an event called “the Rapture” whisks “the Church” up to heaven.

    Then all hell will break loose on earth.

    Then “the seven years of tribulation” will begin.

    Then an infamous Antichrist will gain control of the world.

    Then Antichrist will marshal his forces against the Jews.

    This scenario is now being taught around the world, on TV, radio, in books and articles, and on the Internet; yet that one not-so-small detail mentioned above should be made plain: these teachings are all part of the system of Dispensationalism. It’s true that Dispensationalists themselves are mostly pro-Israel, and that yes, one of their cardinal teachings is that God will defend Jews at Armageddon. But when we delve deeper, we discover that only a small portion will be protected. Shockingly, two thirds of Israelis will be slaughtered first in a Holocaust II.

    Obviously, this isn’t Good News for Jewish people at all.

    The Internet encyclopedia, Wikipedia, defines Dispensationalism this way:

    Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition and theologybased on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive “dispensations” or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. As a system dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby and the Brethren Movement.The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological “end times” perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Church…” (1)

    Wikipedia is 100% correct in reporting that “Dispensationalism” views “the nation of Israel” as “distinct from the Church” and that its prophetic system includes “a distinctive eschatological ‘end times’ perspective” usually accompanied by belief in “a pretribulation rapture.” Yet one sticky problem rarely mentioned is that (as noted above), most dispensationalists also believe that after the “rapture” occurs, sinister forces will target millions of non-raptured Jews during the Tribulation, that most Jews will suffer horribly, and that millions will be annihilated in a nightmarish Jewish bloodbath before the Second Coming of Christ. Prominent Dispensationalist John Walvoord frankly confessed that during the Tribulation, “two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish” (2).

    Indeed, this is a Dispensationalist doctrine.

    Though rarely stressed publicly, such a horrendous Jewish forecast might appropriately be called, “Dispensationism’s dirty secret.”

    Personally, I don’t buy it, and it is the purpose of this article to dismantle some of Dispensationalism’s deceptive errors.

    First of all, the notion that God saved Old Testament Jews by law, but now saves New Testament Christians by grace, is not only subtly anti-Jewish itself, but it’s entirely unbiblical. Grace began with the fall of Adam and the first entrance of sin (see Romans 5:20b), or humanity would have been wiped out immediately. Before the flood, “Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:8, emphasis added). Throughout Israel’s checkered history, her people found grace too. Even before God wrote the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai, the Israelites left Egypt safely because of the blood of slain lambs sprinkled on their doors (see Exodus 12) typifying their Messiah’s grace. The warm blood of slain animals sprinkled by Jewish High Priests above the Ten Commandments inside the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement also proclaimed salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, rather than through the law. Indeed, even before Israel existed as a nation, God Almighty “preached before the gospel unto Abraham” (Galatians 3:8, emphasis added) centered in Calvary.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of statements about obeying they law in the New Testament (read Romans 2:25,26; 3:31; 7:12; 8:4; Ephesians 6:1-3; James 2:10-12). The truth is that throughout fallen human history God has used “the law” to show sinners their sins (both Jews and Gentiles) to create a need for faith and grace (see Romans 5:19-20; Galatians 3:24). Thus it is not “Old Testament Law Replaced by New Testament Grace,” but rather “Law Creating the Need for Grace” throughout. In Galatians 3:11, Paul clarified plainly that “no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,” and he quotes the Old Testament to prove it. Ultimately, all grace is centered in Jesus Christ, and whether people lived in Old Testament times when His sacrifice was foreshadowed by slain lambs, or in New Testament times after His sacrifice was realized at Calvary, as the Master Himself stated, “No man comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6, emphasis added).

    “No man” means none, either Jew or Greek.

    In other words, everyone who reaches heaven will arrive there solely because of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice-that is, by His grace. Thus when Dispensationalists teach that Old Testament Jews achieved salvation in any way through the law, or that they were denied the gospel, whether they realize it or not, they are teaching a subtly anti-Jewish false doctrine. The truth is that God loved Old Testament Jews just as much as He loves New Testament Christians, and both groups have always been offered one hope through one Savior.

    And this one Savior still loves both groups today.

    Second, Dispensationalism’s distinctive separation between Israel and the Church is fictitious. On the Jewish Day of Pentecost, 3,000 Jews were baptized through the preaching of Peter and “added to the church” (Acts 2:41,47). If you asked Peter and the disciples if they were part of “Israel” or “the Church,” what would they say? The answer is obvious. They were both! The earliest Christian “church” itself was almost entirely a Jewish Church. Then Gentiles joined the ranks.

    Third: the Rapture. Dispensationalism’s end-time scenario begins with Christians being “caught up” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to meet Jesus is the air, which Dispensationalists interpret as a silent, secretive event occurring seven years before the end. Wrong again. A careful reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 together reveals that true believers will be “caught up” (verse 17) when Jesus Christ literally descends from heaven with a mighty “shout,” a loud “voice,” and with “the trumpet of God”—in other words, at His cataclysmic second coming. There’s nothing silent or secret about it! As the Wikipedia article correctly stated, the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine is actually “rooted” in the teachings of 19th-century theologian “John Nelson Darby”; yet prior to Darby, it was virtually unknown for 1800 years.

    Fourth: the seven-year tribulation myth. Amazingly, there is no verse in the entire Bible that specifically teaches a “seven year tribulation” at all. Check any concordance. It’s just not there. Daniel 9:27 is most often quoted to support the “Seven-Year Trib Theory,” yet the verse itself says nothing of the sort. In fact, the vast majority of older Christian commentaries—such as Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, and Jamieson, Faucett & Brown—placed Daniel 9:27 during the time of Jesus Himself who “confirm[ed] the [New] covenant” and “caused the [Jewish] sacrifice[s] to cease” by His death on the cross.

    Fifth: a bloody end-time slaughter of two thirds of the Jewish people living in Israel. Such a horrendous teaching is based almost entirely on one verse—Zechariah 13:8—yet the New Testament places the previous verse (verse 7) squarely in the time of Christ (compare with Matthew 26:31). There is no prediction in the book of Revelation about theannihilation of two thirds of all Jews living in Israel by Antichrist before our Lord’s visible return, nor does it specifically target Israelis for slaughter in the least.

    In conclusion, we must pay greater attention to the Master’s warning, “take heed that no man deceive you” (Matthew 24:4)— especially when it comes to our Jewish friends, and to interpretations of prophecy. In these turbulent days of Dispensationalist Delusions—assigning “the law” to Old Testament Jews alone and not to Christians, the distinction between Israel and the Church, the Rapture, 7-year Tribulation, and a supposed end-time slaughter of two thirds of all Israelis—let’s do all we can to share “the everlasting gospel” (Revelation 14:6) with everyone, both Jew and Gentile, before the Second Coming.

    Don’t be fooled by false prophecies.

    Let’s stick to solid Bible truth.

  167. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    The feasts, the Sabbath, and all the prophecies of the Old Testament are a shadow, speaking of who and what the Christ will be and what He will do.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

  168. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    I does little good to encourage folks to stick to Bible Truth, because each one thinks his/her interpretation is the truth.

  169. Yes, Barry Schmidt; If any Jew dies without Christ before He returns, they will not receive the gift of eternal life. The way I read the Bible, it seems to me that scripture states that a remnant will recognize Him upon His return, and they will mourn as for the death of an only son. I call that repentence. However, those repentant Jews will have to go into the Mellinnium in their clay bodies.

  170. Sandra G. Apr 12th 2013

    Here is a good article concerning “replacement theology”, it is rather long, so I will only post the link. The article provides scriptural references. I pray that this will help some to see that the church has not replaced Israel.

    May all be blessed,
    In HIS grace

  171. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    There are many different perspectives given in this post. If God, thru His Spirit were to give a revelation as to what is the actual truth in this situation, how many of us would be willing to through out everything we have chosen to believe and accept God’s truth? Or would we be like the Pharisees and reject the truth because it don’t line up with our tradition.

  172. watchful Apr 12th 2013

    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

  173. Brother Andrew,

    As always, you seem to touch topics that have been bothering me for some time and actually never had anyone mature to dabble into them with.

    My take is this…If there is Gentile, then surely there is an Israelite…but then Paul in many of his writing sort of dissolved the exaltation of priding oneself in being an Israelite:

    You can start here:

    1. As a “Gentile”, I am a spiritual Jew by the Holy Spirit…which can only be received through Jesus the Lord…

    Rom 2:29 BUT HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    According to this verse, a Gentile who received Jesus is Jew (Member of the Body of Christ)…

    Now what happens if an natural Jew becomes a Christian? Does he become more of a Jew? Of course not!


    Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek(Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

    Meaning in Christ, there is no race….

    2. Let’s come to NATURAL ISREAL:

    We all know natural Israelites are natural Children of Abraham but now look at Jesus’ challenge to the ISRAELITES:

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    To me, Jesus was already beginning to disregard the fact their skin is of the Jew.


    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

    Meaning, really, WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS were what made Jew a Jew than their blood relationship with Abraham…

    Look again at the same thing here:

    “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM”…

    When you read verses like these, you would realise that God was already disregarding the outward Jewness.

  174. I agree with most everything you say, Barry Schmidt. It is hard to use all the words necessary so that what we say is not limited. In that regard, I hope you realize that the physical body that Christ has and revealed after His resurrection, is more than ours. It can “dissolve” into the Spirit and instantly go anywhere within the Body of Eternal Father who is Spirit, and who covers and is in all creation. We will have heaven here on earth because we will have been removed from the restricted zone that we were put in when we fell. Earth will be back in the Zone of God…and in that respect Heaven will be here. Yes, the 1,500 mile cubed New Jerusalem will be sitting over there in Jerusalem when this happens. We are not bound to earth tho. There are many untold stories concerning what is to come after this happens. It is not the end of end alls. Yes we will be just like Jesus. A physical glorified restored body…but not a body of clay.

  175. Another consideration in the Israel/Church discussion that is rarely discussed is the distiction between the House of Israel and the House of Judah. After Solomon’s disobedience, the nation of Israel was split in two. The Northern kingdom included 10 tribes and are called the following names throughout scripture: House of Israel, Samaria (Northern capital), House of Isaac, Ephraim, and House of Joseph. These names represented the blessing given to the lead tribe of the North, Ephraim. (See Genesis 48, 49 and Deuteronomy 33) The Southern Kingdom included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and much of the Levi, and were called: House of Judah, all of Judea, sometimes Jerusalem (Southern capital), and their people were called Jews. After the nation of Israel was split in two, only the phrase “the whole house of Israel,” was used in reference to all thirteen tribes.
    The Northern Kingdom was taken captive by Assyria and dispersed amongst the nations, and have not yet returned to geographic Israel. The Southern Kingdom was taken captive by Babylon, and in part returned during the times of Nehemiah, Ezra, Roman rule, and also including post 1948 to the land of Israel. All Jews, from the House of Judah, are Israelites; but not all Israelites are Jews.
    How does this related to the Israel/Church discussion? The separation of the age of Israel and the age of the “Church” is not binary, but rather has critical overlaps to be considered. First, yes, the new covenant was fulfilled in Christ. The scriptures are filled with how the old covenant (law, Levitical priests, blood of bulls and goats, earthly tabernacle with the ark of the covenant) have past, and the new (grace, Jesus is our high priest, blood of Christ, heavenly holy of holies) is now complete. This new covenant was promised throughout the law and prophets and has an explicit summary in Jeremiah 31:31-37. Secondly, under both the old and new covenants, salvation came through faith and not works. King David ate the shewbread, wore the high priest’s linen garment, committed adultery, murdered, lied, etc, but was considered a man after God’s own heart through faith. His Psalms are filled with anticipation of the coming Messiah and relationship with God through the forgiveness of sins. (See Psalms 2, 47, 110, and many others) Likewise, the Israelites died in the wilderness because of unbelief, not disobedience to the law. (See Hebrews 4)
    Finally, Gentiles (not of the Jacob bloodline) were included in the promises given to the tribes of Israel through faith, if they believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The including of Gentiles, even under the old covenant, into the tribes of Israel began when they left Egypt (Exodus 12: 48) and continued throughout the time that they occupied the promise land. (see Leviticus 17, 19, 23, 24, etc). Likewise, the new covenant is for both the whole House of Israel and Gentiles. The “Jews,” descendants of the House of Judah, were present in Judea, during the earthly ministry of Christ, but the House of Israel was scattered throughout the nations. (Amos 9:9) That is why Jesus said, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,” in Matthew 10:5-6. He was stating that the House of Israel was outside of Judea, because they were sifted amongst the nations of the earth. Or “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel,” in Matthew 15:24. Or in James 1:1, “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” With the understanding of the House of Israel and the House of Judah, the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31, quoted in Hebrews chapter 8, reads very different, as it has been given to the House of Judah and the House of Israel! And as like under the old covenant, any Gentile can by faith be grafted in.
    Heb 8:8-13
    “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
    Therefore, we can conclude that both under the old and new covenant, the promises were made to those that believe, first to the whole house of Israel, and also those Gentiles who are grafted in. This understanding redefines the typical distinction between an age of Israel and the modern church made commonly today. The tribes of Israel and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ and the mercy of our Heavenly Father are those in the Kingdom of heaven whether they lived under the law or during the fulfillment of the new covenant.

  176. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    Jesus was not “the passover lamb’ for “the passover of the jews”.

    Jesus is “The Lamb Of God”
    “Who Takes Away The Sins Of The World”.

    “The passover lamb of the jews
    was not for The Remission of sins.
    The Pardon of their Debt 0f Sin in Forgiveness.

    The passover lamb’s blood was to
    save their flesh from death. From being killed.
    For The Redemption of their bodies, buying them back, to Purchase them once again to serve God.

    Remember, when Jesus came He didn’t have to die for them to have The Remission OF Sins. The Baptist & Jesus preached Repentance & Baptism FOR The Remission OF Sins.

    Jesus’ death was for The Redemption of our flesh.
    To buy back our flesh from the sting of sin and death. We “Eagerly Wait For THE Adoption THE Redemption 0f Our Body.” – Rom.8:23

    To Which The Redemption Of Our Body Has An Appointed “DAY”.
    “Day 0f Redemption” – Ephs.4:30

  177. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Kitty “If any Jew dies without Christ before He returns, they will not receive the gift of eternal life.”

    Are you saying that a Jew follows Torah and is a “decent person” wont receive eternal life ?
    How can that be ?
    This is anti-scriptural and anti-semitic to the nth degree- Romans 2 shows that a person is judged on what they know and how they act.

    Acts 10:35 “but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”

    You might want to think about what you are saying:
    John 5:29
    Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

    Note – “Those who have done good ” not those who have accepted Jesus or the 4 steps of faith. It is those “who have done good ” will experience eternal life.

    I know a number of people professing Jesus “who dont do good but do evil”. Jesus mentions this in Matt 7 ” ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness” – they knew Jesus but Jesus didnt know them.


  178. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    According to the Word, I have a warning for all Judaizers. Paul strictly warned his churches concerning the jews who were trying to make them obey the OT rules and regulations. If we begin in the Spirit, are we perfected by the flesh. We are not under the Law. If you are not a Jew by birth, then you should not listen to these who say you should obey the OT laws. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. God gave him revelation of His will for us. You will be wise to listen to our apostle rather than these who desire to boast in your flesh.
    Even if you are a Jew in the flesh, read the warning against Peter and those with him in Galations 2.

  179. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Ian- I apologize if in my very feeble attempt to answer your question regarding Sabbath keeping -my words came across as they did. It’s hard to communicate tone, emotion, body language and motive by typing only. That is why God designed the church to relate to each other IN PERSON and NOT AN INTERNET CHURCH.
    I assure you if you could see me in person as I gave my answer you would see my love, honor and respect for you my brother in my face, eyes, body posture and tone.
    So I trust you will be able to assign that respectful tone to my words in our conversation.
    Having said that I agree with you that the Christian life of faith and grace involves OBEDIENCE TO GODS COMMANDS- here is where we may depart. Those divine commands under the New Covenant -while NEVER deviating from the Law of Moses in spirit and intent ( because both Gods present New Covenant commands as well as His commands that were written on stone tablets (the ten commandments ) are based on love. but here is one enormous difference between the Old Covenant commands (the Mosaic ten) and the New Covenant divine commands. The difference is that the the New Covenant divine commands are always present, living, relational and dynamic commands that God Himself issues in and to each individual believer personally and presently. It’s like the Old is a written manual and the new is a LIVING PERSONAL PARENT in the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus himself personally and presently REPLACES the impersonal manual.
    The other major difference between Old Covenant divine commands and New Covenant divine commands is that Jesus Himself not only personally and presently issues the commands BUT HE ALSO motivates, empowers and actually lovingly obeys GODS commands IN AND THROUGH each believer personally HIMSELF.

    This is why ( although every New Covenant command is rooted in love and fulfills not the letter of the Mosaic ten but the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the ten and the SPIRIT AND INTENT of the ten) – this is why IT IS NOT A ONE SIZE COMMAND FITS ALL UNDER THE NEW COVENANT.
    This why when it comes to Sabbath keeping Paul says this to the church,
    One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:5, 6 NASB)

    .we are clearly forbidden from legislating observance of the Sabbath based upon this principle. Paul warns against this in the very same context;

    But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. (Romans 14:10 NASB)
    So that command is directed towards those who want to legislate Sabbath observance on others.
    the command in Colosians 2 is directed towards those who might be tempted to allow others to pressure and judge them into Sabbath observance. God here clearly forbids US from allowing anyone from judging US on the issue of Sabbath observance:

    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16, 17 NASB)

    So clearly those two passages alone leave no wiggle room.
    1. No one is permitted to legislate Sabbath observance ON OTHERS
    2. No one is permitted to allow others to legislate Sabbath observance ON THEMSELVES.
    It is Jesus personal choice and leading that takes precedence over any generalized and universal law regarding Sabbath observance.
    Bless you my brother!

  180. Jesus Christ is the Sabbath, He is the Sanctuary of Rest that is even now be trodden under, but not for Himself. We are to keep the Sabbath within us, yes. However, one day a week we are also to rest from all labors so that our minds and bodies can reset from the world and facilitate better our growth and health…as we were made to need that rest. Yes, the Law as given to Abraham’s people does not save, because it was not complete until Jesus paid the price that the Law demanded. That is what set us free from the curse of the Law. The Law is our measure, and tells us when we need to repent, and the gift of Repentence came from Jesus Christ…He enabled that process by His death on the cross.

    Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Isaiah 51: 7-8 Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their revilings. For the moth will eat them up like a garment, and the worm will eat them like wool; But My righteousness will be forever, and My salvation from generation to generation.

    Christ said He did not come to do away with the law, but to fullfill it. Than He went right on and spoke about the 10 commandments….not all the temple regulations. Without His death the Law is useless because it does not save. Those who followed the Law before Christ’s death were waiting for Him when He descended for three days and nights into the holding place where they were. The Law is a measure of what is right to do, but Jesus Christ enables Righteousness within the heart. Our attraction to Jesus Christ enables us to want to act as our Lord desires us to. Christ also broke the law down into two components, the first is how to love God, and the next is how to love our fellow man.

  181. Andrew, thanks for posting this discussion. I have not had time to read all the previous comments, but this topic is of great interest to me because I have found my views change over the years. I agree with you on some points, and disagree with you on others. I wanted to make a quick comment about this comment here:


    My question to you is this — to whom was the “New Covenant” made when you say “we” are a “new covenant” people”? As far as I can read, as a Gentile believer, there are no covenants made specifically by God to Gentiles in the whole of scripture. The new covenant described in Jer. 31 clearly states this new covenant is not with “the church” (Gentile believers). It’s with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and will remain in effect until the fixed order of creation has ceased. (The last time I checked, the sun was still rising and setting each day.) Further, Romans 9 is very clear: Gentile believers are grafted into this New Covenant that was made to Israel. Jesus Himself, at the last supper, raised the cup and said, “This is is the new covenant in my blood” — referring to Jer. 31. We are not the firstborn heirs of the promise, but adopted sons through Christ. So, how can you say we are a “new covenant” people and not, in essence, be making the same “replacement theology” error by claiming “we” (the church) are now “the apple of God’s eye” and son-recipients of the promise? If God could not keep His everlasting covenant with the House of Israel, why in the world do we believe he would keep any promises to us as Gentile believers?

    The misunderstanding, in my opinion, is made when Gentile New Testament believers try to make the point that we are not bound to Old Testament law by making the statement “we are New Covenant” people. That just doesn’t make any sense because Gentiles are not the recipients of that Covenant to begin with.

    It is obvious to me that New Testament *Jewish believers* (yes, including Paul) still kept Sabbath and continued keeping the Lord’s appointed feasts (Passover, Shavuot (“Pentecost” -which, by the way, the reason they were all gathered in one place was because they were keeping this feast). Some passages that indicate the disciples continued these practices are found in Acts 21, Col. 2, I. Cor. 5, 10 & 11. So, in my opinion, I personally believe there is nothing in scripture indicating that those practices were eliminated in Christ *for Jewish believers*. (And it’s worthy of it own separate discussion, but the word “Church” doesn’t exist in the New Testament in the way the New Testament interpreters have made it out to be.) But, I don’t believe those practices for Jewish believers applied or would now apply to Gentile believers. The *only* requirements for Gentile believers were that they: “abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,1 and from sexual immorality.” (Acts 21:25, ESV).

    I personally believe the Messianic Jewish believers that have survived throughout the ages are the first-born heirs of the New Covenant promises outlined in Jer. 31. They are so dearly and preciously “the apple of His eye” — *not* Gentile believers. The unbelieving “prodigal” nation of Israel is still a son, much in the same way that “the prodigal son” never lost his identity as a son just because he was “prodigal”. The Father is ever waiting to restore them to Himself and serve a banquet feast and welcome them back when they repent and return to Him. But, they are still sons. Gentile believers are grafted into the promises of the new covenant made to THEM, and our “calling” according to Romans 9 is to provoke those prodigal, *unbelieving Jews* to jealousy. In my opinion, nothing provokes an unbelieving Jew more than a gathering of Gentile believers celebrating Jewish feasts WITH Jewish believers. I do not believe Gentile believers are required by law to keep the feasts, but I am convinced and have personally experienced that keeping these feasts are a means of sharing the gospel with unbelieving Jews!! The problem is that the majority Gentile believers are completely unaware of the significance of the feasts, so rather use them to share the gospel they instead rebuke them as “outward observance of the law to which we are no longer bound.” Such a shame, and I believe it breaks the Lord’s heart.

    Scripture is clear that one day “all of Israel will be saved.” We don’t know how, and we don’t know when. But, we can be sure of it. The “nation” of Israel is significant in that it’s the Land specific to the place where Christ will one day return and reign from. How can he return to rule and reign as The Holy One of Israel if there is no nation of Israel to return to? And He will not return until the House of Israel says, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” So, Jewish evangelism is not just a precedent in scripture — it’s the very thing that will accelerate His return!

  182. Ugh — the comment I was questioning that you made in my previous post above got omitted! Here is the passage I was referring to:

    We “mix” covenants at out peril. And this is a cause of huge
    confusion amongst Christians today. We are “New Covenant”
    people – not Old. So why do some act as though physical
    Israel is our focus? It is one thing to love and support Israel. But
    quite another to get caught up in this “mania” that tries to ‘mix’
    the two Covenants together. This has actually become a strong
    deception – and is leading many astray.

  183. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Pandora – The passover lamb that takes away the sin of world (consists of forgiveness, removal of guilt, and a rebirth).

    It had to be a sinless lamb blood offering so that the gift of the “indwelling Holy Spirit” and the internal birth and maturing of the Christ & the Holy Spirit could take place “in the disciple”.
    Paul mentioned this in Gal who were Spirit filled “my little children in whom I labor again, till Christ is formed in you”.

    The “outward redemption of the body” /the revealing of the sons G_D will not take place until the “inward redemption” is done first.
    What is on the inside will be revealed and it will be glorious….
    Dan 12
    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake,
    some to eternal life, and some to shame and eternal contempt.
    Those who are wise will shine like the bright expanse of the heavens,
    and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.


  184. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Teresa– if I may explain. The new covenant was given to the original people of God. The new covenant is actually the third covenant. The second covenant was given to the physical descendants of Jacob, by Moses in the wilderness. The first covenant is the one that is greatly confused with the second. The first covenant is the covenant between God and Abraham, first mentioned in Genesis 12 with more details in other parts of Genesis. Then, great detail is give in Galatians 3. This explains that the original people of God are those who have faith in the ONE SEED of Abraham, who is Jesus.

  185. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Here is the new covenant…. It is a living document.
    The epistles and the letters of the NT are records of men who “ARE BECOMING/ EXPERIENCING” the new covenant.
    I hope I am making sense.

    2 Cor 3
    You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
    And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

  186. antypas4, in response to your question regarding a Jewish person following the Torah, I would say this. The Holding place where Christ went is timeless. All who die go there. Being a timeless zone, to me, that means that when Jesus Christ went there, all who had ever died, and who do die before He returns were there. At that time, those who followed the Torah will see Jesus and recognize Him….and they will be saved. Why? Because they will recognize Him as the Son of the God who they follow. Churches don’t teach this, but it is what I believe from what I have read about God in the Bible. He is eternal, He was and is and is to be all at the same time. Christ died on the cross from the beginning of the foundations of the world. That scripture also illustrates how God’s time is not stationary and only traveling forward as is our time zone where we are imprisoned until we are restored.

    Revelations 13:8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    How could Christ be slain at the beginning of the foundation of the world? Because God is timeless and not restricted by our concept of time.

    It is all about recognizing who Jesus Christ is. That is the Rock upon which all is built. After that recognition must come the desire to be like Him, to want His Will above all else, unto death.

  187. The Holding Place where Christ went….is referencing when Christ descended after His death on the cross. He went to the Holding Place for three days and nights. A timeless place of God the Father.

  188. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Having laid out the New Covenant approach to Sabbath observance
    1. That sabbath day observance is and always wasna trype and a foreshadow of the reality we have in Christ- that is that Sabbath observance ALWAYS pointed to and has its FULFILLMENT in the salavation rest we enjoy in Christ.

    2. That legislating Sabbath observance on others is strictly forbidden in the Bible.

    3. That allows others to pressure and judge us into Sabbath day observance is also strictly forbidden in the Bible.
    4. That Jesus individual and personal choice for each believer individually takes precedence over a universal law code regarding Sabbath day observance.

    Having said that having a day of rest has many blessings and benefits:
    1. Our physical health is created to have regular breaks and rests from labor.
    2. Setting aside regular breaks from work can free us to focus regularly on RELATIONSHIPS with God and others.
    3. Regular breaks from labor releases our divinely given creativity and recreativity ( just having some time to promote vision, imagination, creativity and to enjoy some recreation time.

    Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27 NASB)

  189. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Kitty, Amen on the timelessness of God!!!

  190. COVENANTS DECODED HEBREW: God had directed me to decode (for a lack of better word) the word and see the hidden revelation of the biblical parables. The “decoding” from Genesis to Revelation prove the same simple message over and over. Just a few pieces to help understand the promises have to do with removing our deception and taking us to a place of spiritual connection to the heart and mind of God dwelling within us giving us peace, joy in the Spirit, and knowing to do what is right in every situation according to HIs will & purpose individually and corperately.

    Hebrew & Greek termonoly-etymology:

    Promised Land-Canaan: wrapped up self-end of “self”, humbled.

    I AM THE GOD OF…..
    Abram-Abraham: “Father of pride producing serpents-worms”

    Isaac: symbol of the “Spirit” (he was promise of the spirit)

    Jacob: “deceived, deception”

    Jacob renamed “Israel” after he wrestled with God.
    Israel: “He who struggles with God & overcomes”

    “I am the God of the Father of many nations (all religions of man) who are the SPIRITUALLY DECEIVED, that struggle with God & overcome.”

    “I am the God of: the Father of many nations (religions), which is a “Spirit of Deception or spiritual deception” that struggles with God and overcomes.”

    Patriarch: “MARKED” by the supremacy of the FATHER in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives & children and reckoning of DESCENT & INHERITANCE in the MALE line. Society organized according to the principles of patriarchy.

    (Ezekiel 38:3) (Gog of the land of MAGOG) Thus says the Lord God, “I am against you GOG, PRINCE of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.

    Parable: figurative language. Metaphor: to transfer one meaning of a word to another meaning. An

    Allegory: symbolic, fictional figures & actions of truths. Symbolic representation.
    fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle. Comparison

    (Matthew 13:34) In fact, He (Jesus) never spoke to them without using such parables. This fulfills the prophecy that said, “I will speak to you in parables. I will explain mysteries hidden since the creation of the world.”

    (Matthew 16:23) Jesus turned & said to Peter, “Get away from Me SATAN! You are merely seeing things from a human point of view. (Satan = human point of view)

    (John 8:44) (Jesus speaking to the religious leaders): You are of your FATHER, the DEVIL=SATAN, and you do the desires of your FATHER. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the TRUTH because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a LIE he speaks from his own NATURE for he is a LIAR and the father of lies.

    (Psalm 24:7) LIFT your HEADS. O’ GATES, and be lifted up everlasting doors; and the KING of GLORY shall come in. v. 8 Who is the King of glory? God.

    24:7 = 24 / 7 = 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, lift your head to the Lord, look up to the Lord so that He may dwell in and fill your mind with His glory, His 7fold Spirit of wisdom, counsel, power, knowledge, understanding, righteousness, & fear of Him. Lifting implies the head has been bowed, humbled, headship, being emptied of our will, our ways & understanding according to this world & the carnal mind of man surrendered and now the command to lift up & look up to the Lord.

    (Ezekiel 37:22) I will make them ONE NATION… and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be 2 nations and no longer be divided into 2 kingdoms, (:23) they will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their sins.

    (2 Timothy 1:7) For God has not given us the SPIRIT of FEAR; but of POWER, and of LOVE, and of a SOUND MIND. (If we are in fear & worry we are not hearing God’s voice of truth, but rather hearing our own carnal voice within or the voices of others causing FEAR, HATRED, DIVISION, PRIDE, SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS, BLAME, CONFUSION, ELITISM, ANGER, RAGE, HOSTILITY. which voice is leading us??

    (Matthew 4:4) Man shall not live on BREAD = word of God/( BIBLE) alone, but by every word going out of the mouth: “UTTERANCE, VOICE” of God. (then the DEVIL LEFT HIM)

    1. kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but righteousness, peace, & joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)
    2. Kingdom is within you: “The Kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) you.” (Luke 17:20-21)
    3. Kingdom approached through understanding: “When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, He said to him “You are not far from the Kingdom of God.” (Mark 12:34)

    The kingdom of God is when I am experiencing “hell” or struggle, or battle, and I seek God and He speaks to me and tells me “trust me, I am doing xyz in this, i need you to forgive, or have mercy, and stand firm or whatever.” The I in return of my obedience, & trust in His purpose & will, experience peace, and know what He has told me to do in response is “right-righteousness”, and joy in His Spirit.

    6. Kingdom entered through doing the will of God: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father who is in Heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

    Romans 8:6 the mind of flesh or the carnal mind is death and the mind lead by the Spirit is life!!! (Our carnal mind, lies to us, tricks us, confuses us, causes us to act in every evil way against the ways of the divine nature of God. The mind ruled by His Spirit gives peace)

    (1Samuel 15:23) REBELLION is the SIN of WITCHCRAFT, and STUBBORNESS/ insubordination is the SIN of IDOLATRY.

    (1Samuel 15:24) I have SINNED; I have indeed transgressed the command of the Lord and your words, BECAUSE I FEARED the PEOPLE and LISTENED to THEIR VOICE.

    Witchcraft: communion with the Devil. An irresistible influence, fascination, attraction or charm. Devil = Serpent = Dragon = Satan = HUMAN PERSPECTIVE according to the physical earthly realm & man.

    (Matthew 16:23) Jesus said to Peter: Get away from Me SATAN, you are merely seeing things from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE.
    Human perspective = Satan

    The bible 2 test. refers to the double-twin, 2 part man, the warring within of the mind that is ruled by human wisdom & our will & the flesh-written laws , and the other that desires to be ruled by the Spirit of God. Both struggle and war in us. As it says in Galatians, referring to Sarah & Hagar the present is still as Hagar the slave, where we are still lead deceived believing in christ, yet still slave & bound to, living by the written word & carnal understanding. Both must go through a spiritual death of understanding and letting go of all we depend on in the flesh to “HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD WITHIN”, to be affirmed by the the flesh-written word. See Hebrews 3 & 4. Dueteronomy 4:

    The battle with the “Nations” where we can not unite is because we have so many different interpretations of the written scriptures and so many different personal convictions (rightly so), that their can only be unity among ALL BELIEVERS- NATIONS, when we just come together to worship in one common belief… THE CREATOR, GOD WHO IS SPIRIT. True worshippers must worship in truth of the Spirit.

    I have prayed with muslims, hindus, baptist, catholics….. all who they too believe in the creator God, but I laid down all things to unite in the Spirit-God, the perfect bond of peace.

    Gog: “PRINCE” Rosh: “to SHAKE the HEAD” Meshech: to REMOVE”- son or seed of Japeth: “deceived-DECEPTION”
    Gog: “prince” = male MaGog: = “princess” = female man & woman = 1st born- flesh & 2nd born-spirit

    Tubal: “a postdiluvian PATRIARCH and his posterity= one who lived after the Biblical flood


    (Genesis 49:29-33) Then Jacob: “deception” told them, I am about to be gathered to my people. Bury me beside my fathers (Abraham & Isaac), at the cave which is in the field of Ephron: “earth, dust, ashes= dead” the Hitite: “submissive, prostrate”, in the cave which is in the field of Machpelah: “double”, which is before Mamre: “rebel”, in the land of Canaan: “the humbled, end of self / upwrap up self” , the field which Abraham: “the father of many nations” bought from Ephron: “earth, dust, ashes=dead” the Hittite: “submissive, prostrate” for a burying place.
    They buried Abraham and his wife Sarah there and they buried Isaac and his wife Rebekah; and I buried Leah: “weary, to tire” there; the purchase of the field and the cave in it, from the sons of Heth: “prostrate”.

    (4th Generation Joseph buries father, Jacob.) Melchezdick: “RIGHTEOUSNESS” is 4th generation.
    50: Jubilee, captives set free.- Leviticus 25
    (Genesis 50:1-3) And Joseph fell on the face of his father and wept on him, mourned over him and kissed him. Joseph “join together” commanded his servants “bondage” to be the physicians “healers/healed” to embalm “to spice” his father. And the healers/healing embalmed: “spiced” Israel. And it took 40 days to fulfill the days of those embalmed “to spice”. And Egypt (those in bondage) mourned for him 70 days. 70 + 40 = 110

    (Genesis 50:23) Joseph (4th generation in the covenant line), lived to see 3 generations of descendants who were blessed:
    3 generations: Ephraim: “double fruit” = (flesh & spirit fruitful = “the double”)
    Manasseh: “causing me to forget my fathers house & remove me from my fathers house”.
    Makir: “to surrender self, to sell, a daughter into slavery or marriage”.

    Patriarchy: Social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, & the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line. A society organized according to the principles of patriarchy

    The only physical estate that Abraham owned was the burial ground that he bought for 400 pieces of silver to bury the “Patriarch” family of 6. Therefore our inheritance from Abraham is the burial ground in which we are to die to self.

    6 symbolizes flesh-& MIND OF MAN
    4 symbolizes peace & oneness, divine world-wide impact to the 4 corners of earth.

    Well of Jacob: “Deception”

    (John 4:5-14) Jesus came to a Samaritan: “watchtower” city called Sychar: “intoxicating”, near the piece of land Jacob gave to his son Joseph. And Jacob’s well, was there. Jesus sat on the well. It was about the 6th hour
    (6 = time of man-flesh- deception & wickedness).


    Revelation 13: “it is the mark of man”

    Genesis: “man was created on the 6 the day

    66 books of the Bible, = written word & carnal mind of man = 6
    mark on forehead = how we think- human wisdom- mind of man, god of this world that everyone worships their own mind-thinking and the minds -wisdom of all other people.

    mark on the hand = in our own strength, & what we do.

    mark of the beast 666= those who are ruled by the written word & human wisdom- self-will instead of those who are crucified to the written word-flesh and blood- carnal mind-human wisdom-satan ruled by the Spirit, living water flowing within, sword of the Spirit, voice of God, living word.

    (John 6:66) v. 54 Jesus said: those partaking of My flesh= (written word) &drinking of My blood= (mind of Christ, who’s mind-head is God= doing the will of God) have everlasting life. v. 63 It is the SPIRIT that makes ALIVE. The FLESH – accomplishes nothing. V 65 No one is able to come to Me except it has been granted him from the Father. 6.66 at this many of his disciples turned away and were not walking with him (Jesus) anymore.

    I could go on and on as I am bursting in awe and amazement at what God has shown and continue to prove through Hebrew and Greek scripture through some that I have shared.

    My pieces that God has shared show that we are dealing with our 2 part being, and corperately the flesh & spirit that need to join together & surrender to be ruled by the Spirit.

    (Gen. 32:2) This is the camp of God, “Mahanaim”: “2 Camps” .

    The 2 become 1 “no longer jew or Gentile, male or femail, slave to the law or freed from the law…. we are all one new man…

    (Genesis 2:9) 2 trees in the middle of garden= (MIND), tree of knowledge = old testament- law- eye for an eye, works -death, tree of life/book of life = new testament-promise of the spirit-crucify to all you know to hear the voice of God dwelling within = 2 rows of 6 loaves of bread-66 in the temple, 66 books of Bible = Twin peaks of Ararat.

    (Genesis 25:22) 2 STRUGGLE WITHIN, 2 PEOPLE, 2 nations= (2 mindsets within us.)

    (Ezekiel 37:22) no longer 2 kingdoms- 2 nations-2 sticks-trees. = Israel & Judah

    (Exodus 25:22) I will meet with you from the middle of the 2 Cherubim- mercy seat.

    (1Corinthians 15:45..) 1st Adam-man in the image of earthly & 2nd Adam-man in the image of heavenly.

    (Ephesians 2:14) two groups into one…

    (Revelation 22:2) River of God flowing in the middle of 2 trees= God’s spirit mind flowing between our 2 part mind.

    7 fold Spirit of man (imitates the 7fold spirit of God): Isaiah 11:2 wisdom, counsel, knowledge, understanding, power, righteousness (doing & knowing what is right according to man & this world & written word), fear of man & his words. (man’s wealth of wisdom that must be traded – emptied & purified for the wealth of wisdom from God. Man’s wisdom are the 7 seals that must be broken to be filled with the 7fold spirit of God that will give revelation to the word of God.)

    7 fold Spirit of God: Isaiah 11:2 wisdom, counsel, knowledge, understanding, power, righteousness (doing & knowing what is right according to the divine will & purpose of God speaking to us specifically in every situation daily.) & fear of the Lord.


    SINIA: “hatred” LAW = living by written law -written word causes us to HATE PEOPLE as we only see JUDGMENT FROM THE LAW
    ZION: “desert: without inhabitants of humanity” = spirit

    ARMAGGENDON / Meggiddo: “MOUNTAIN of OVERCOMING” = overcoming at the mountain or overcoming the mountain = Mt. Sinai = overcoming the written Law-Word of God.

    MOUNTAIN = Mt. Sinai / Horeb: “destruction, destroy, decay, parch, kill” = the written word of God-Law that is the wall-barrier to freedom to connect with the living, divine Spirit of God.

    Horeb is thought to mean Glowing/Heat, which seems to be a reference to the sun, while Sinai may have derived from the name of of SIN, the Sumerian deity

    the etymology of Sinai (Hebrew letters: Samech, Yud, Nun, Yud) as being related to the word for bush (Hebrew: סנה, Samech, Nun, Hey), hence Sinai being where Moses saw the Hasneh HaBoeir or the BURNING BUSH.

    According to the researchers of the Documentary hypothesis, the name Sinai is only used in the Torah by the Jahwist and Priestly Source, whereas Horeb is only used by the Elohist and Deuteronomist.[6] According to Rabbinic tradition, the name Sinai derives from sin-ah meaning HATRED,

    God spoke to Moses from the MIDDLE of the BURNING BUSH after he fled from Egypt. Burning bush = the tree of knowledge = fig tree = written word. Burning means, the divine truth of God from His mind-spirit-middle- (aligned with Him) , spoken to our mind burns away all deception of our human wisdom that is deceived about the divine ways & understanding of God.

    Mt. Sinai located in the city of Madian: “STRIFE, contention”
    Sinai = law law = strife & contention

    (Joel 3:11-12) Gather yourselves and come ALL you NATIONS= (RELIGIONS- denominations, religious beliefs); and GATHER yourselves together around the Lord. Let the nations be AWAKENED and COME UP/ASCEND to the VALLEY of Jehoshaphat: “God’s JUDGMENT of DARKNESS ”. For there I will sit to judge all the NATIONS = (RELIGIONS) all around. Put in the sickle for the HARVEST is RIPE Come let us go down for the press is full; for their WICKEDNESS is GREAT.

    Jehoshaphat / Kidron: “God has Judged” Kidron: “darkness, mourning. = deception &
    “God has JUDGED the DARKNESS.”

    Beginning of Nations:
    (Matthew 24:21) There will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such has not occurred since the beginning of world: human race = MAN.
    (Numbers 24:20) Amalek: “descendant of Esau= FLESH) of was the FIRST= beginning of the NATIONS, but in the END shall come to DESTRUCTION. (End of Age- end of time)

    Esau- FIRST born was born red = Red = Adam: “man, to show blood, red” (life of flesh is in the blood)

    (Genesis 25:25) and the FIRST came out; red like a hairy: “DEVIL, goat” robe.

    Father I pray you would bring revelation to your people- all the nations so that we might be humbled and unite and fulfill the word to ‘LOVE” ONE ANOTHER. Father anything I have shared comes in the best understanding you have allowed and now I trust you if anyone is to receive this and be affirmed with any of it by your Spirit. Thank you for allowing me to share. God bless.

  191. watchful Apr 12th 2013

    Teresa, yes, we are grafted into the New covenant……….because of their unbelief. But that is a mystery, how He has bound all men over to disobedience, each in turn, so that He may have mercy on us all. And one Day soon He will have mercy on the Jews again, because the signs are there that He is binding the gentiles over to disobedience again, the falling away. But I believe a time of trouble first…….when the beast turns on the harlot, if I’m understanding aright. And so we pray for them, for God’s will, and His mercy, while we are still here.

    I do believe that the Jews are provoked to jealous by our freedom. When they see that God is with us even though we are not yoked to the Law that not even they could carry.

  192. JourneyMan Apr 12th 2013

    Andrew, I enjoy reading what people have to say, BUT would you please explain, or perhaps even make it a rule, that a post that is longer than one computer screen is too long and will more than likely be skipped over by the majority of readers.
    Posters this is also for your benefit, if you want to be read, keep is short and simple.

  193. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Amen JourneyMan

  194. The Israel-centric focus stems from the influences of Dispensationalism, a school of interpretation characterized by its insistence on maintaining a strict distinction between the Church and national Israel. In this system God has two separate covenants, plans, destinies, etc.; one for Israel and one for the Church. The charge of “replacement theology” stems from this and is a barely disguised insinuation of anti-semitism used to disparage the motives of theological opponents. But this highlights the failure of Dispensationalism to grasp the New Testament’s concept of FULFILLMENT in Christ; that in Jesus ALL the promises of God find their “yea” and “amen.” For example, the original and limited “land promise” to Abraham is expanded and universalized in Christ to include the entire “world” or ‘cosmos’ (Romans 4:13). An unintended consequence of this system is that what God accomplished in Christ on the Cross becomes secondary and devalued.

  195. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013


    Paul said in Ephs.2:12 that without Christ
    Gentiles were aliens from The CommonWealth Of Israel.

    So having Christ, we’re no longer aliens from The CommonWealth Of Israel?

    So I can go over to Israel and expect to be of Israel’s CommonWealth?
    I don’t think Israel agrees with Paul, YET.

    Gentiles are not Grafted InTo Israel.

    Gentiles are “Grafted In AMONG Them” – Rom.11:17
    Among Those Not broken off from The Olive Tree IN God’s House.

    The Olive Tree Is Not IN The House Of Israel.

    The Olive Tree Is IN God’s House. He Said So. – Jer.11:6

  196. There is a reason that Jesus Christ was dipicted in the Revelation that John was given, as the Lamb who was worthy to open the Seals on the Scroll. John weeped terribley when it looked like that no one was found worthy to open the Scroll. Why would John weep if not that his very salvation was tied up within that scroll, the very redemption of mankind? Than one like a LAMB came forth who was worthy to open the scroll. Jesus Christ the Lamb of the Passover who died for our sins, to take away the death penalty that we all fell under when the curse came upon the earth. The Law alone does not save, only recognizing the Lamb and accepting Him as our Lord, subjecting our will unto His, saves. The Scroll is the beggining and end, that which goes about the earth, separating out the liars on one side and the murderers on the other, separating the tares so they can be destroyed during the Wrath of the Vials. It is not just the scroll of the appocolypse as is taught by man. It is the very scroll that has operated upon the earth from the beginning of the foundations of the earth, all the spirits that work upon the earth to separate out those who do not love what God is, the Righteousness of God. To separate out those who would rather follow man and glorify man. It starts with the Alpha and ends with the Omega…Day of the Lord. It is all about the Restoration of the fallen who followed the dragon’s will instead of God’s. It is all about conquering the plans of the dragon for mankind.

    Jesus Christ is the LAMB, but He is also the ALPHA and the OMEGA. He became the LAMB and died for us before He came forth to lay the foundations of this time zone we are within that allows for our restoration and separation from the curse that caused our original fall, the curse brought about by the father of lies and murder.

  197. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    Kitty- the Bible doesn’t say Jesus went to “a holding place” when he died. I am curious where you got this teaching???
    BTW JESUS ALSO NEVER WENT TO HELL ( HADES) as so many prosperity preachers erroneously teach.
    Jesus himself clearly said that he was going to Paradise when he died in this very clear and unambiguous statement he made to the tier on the cross who repented and turned to Jesus on his dying moments:
    And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:42, 43 NASB)
    Paradise was at one time under the earth. It was adjacent to and in the vicinity of Hell -although a great uncross able chasm separated the two places- so close were the two that the people in torment could speak back and forth yet not reach each other:
    Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ (Luke 16:22-26 NASB)

    It was FROM PARADISE that Jesus “preached to those in Hell (prison) announcing their eternal judgement while Jesus body lay in the tomb for those three days:

    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:18-20 NASB)

    But paradise was MOVED AND TRANSPLANTED from being under the earth ( where hell remains) INTO HEAVEN ABOVE – when Jesus ascended into heaven he took paradise with him into heaven .
    Paradise was under the earth but is NOW ABOVE IN HEAVEN!!!

    Therefore it says, “W hen H e ascended on high, H e led captive a host of captives, A nd H e gave gifts to men.” (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10 NASB)

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’ (Revelation 2:7 NASB)

    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows- was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 NASB)
    Jesus didn’t ascend to heaven alone: praise God he took a host of saints with him- in fact he not only emptied Paradise – he took Paradise with Him when he ascended into heaven!!!

  198. Hi Andrew, great post!
    I do have a few comments to make on this, because it seems to me that one of the main problems on this thread is one that pops up often in such dicussions and that is terminology. We tend to put things in boxes and lump people together, so that if you claim that God still has a future purpose for the Jewish people, then you are automatically a ‘Christian Zionist’, or if you claim otherwise, you are a ‘Rlacement Theologian’. This leads to a false dichotomy, which only brings confusion.
    (I might add that this paradigm is evident in nearly all discussions about Biblical doctrine, such as the ‘free-will’ versus ‘predestination’ debate.)

    So let me begin by saying that there are all kinds of varying ideas about this subject and most of them have been aired here already. However, it is to scripture we must look for THE truth (there can be only one).

    Many have mentioned Paul’s letter to Romans, sepcifically ch.11, but I want to draw people’s attention to a number of things about what Paul is saying in the passage from Rom.9, to Rom.11.

    1st; Paul is speaking of the fate of unbelieving Israelites (Jews who have so far rejected their Messiah, Jesus Christ) and he is doing so to believing Gentiles (Rom.11:13), who he is careful to call Gentiles, even thigh they have been born again, as is obvious from the text. This means that Jews who believe are still ethnically Jews and Gentiles who believe are still ethnically Gentiles, but because of their faith in Jesus Christ, they are now ‘one new man’ (Eph.2:15).

    Paul speaks of the unbelieving Jews as having been broken off from their own olive tree (Rom.11:24). So here he speaks of Israel (Jews), some of whom have believed, some of whom have not, but he calls all of the Israel. In the earlier part of chapter 11, Paul says this:-

    Romans 11:1-7 (KJV)
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, [3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. [7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    So now we have a remnant (who are made up of believing Jews) and those who are not the remnant (unbelieving Jews), who are all said to be ‘natural branches’.
    In the passage above, Paul says that the believing Jews are a remnant according to grace, not according to works. Here is where many people get into trouble, because they rightly state that the unbelieving Jews were broken off because of unbelief, while others will point to the failure of Israel to keep the Law, yet they fail to remember that it is because of ‘the fathers’ sake that they are beloved, according Rom.11:28. This is also mentioned in Rom.9:4., where it is made clear that it is because of he Covenant made with Abraham (and repeated to Isaac and Jacob), that God regards Israel as beloved. Further down in ch.9, Paul makes it clear that the main problem with the Jews was that they began to base their righteousness on the Law, whereas they could only be justified by faith:-

    Romans 9:30-33 (KJV)
    What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    This clearly destroys any hint of salvation being offered outside of faith in Jesus, which Hagee and some others seem to teach. However, it also shows that it is ALWAYS by faith that people of God have been justified. The unbelief of the Jews that Paul writes of in ch.11, is this insistence on keeping the Law, rather than following the example of the Patriarchs and being justified by faith.

    So, God does not regard the unbelieving Jews as SAVED because of the Covenants and promises, but He does still honour those Covenants, because He made them with Himself. Remember, that in all three cases; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they did not participate in the Covenant, but God sovreignly promised certain things for their descendants. Their obedience or otherwise was not an issue, because God swore ‘by Himself’:-

    Hebrews 6:13 (KJV)
    For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

    This means that the promises to Abraham WILL be fulfilled, absolutely and in their entirety. The Jewish people have never, at any time, OWNED all the land that God promised to Abraham, so the fulfiillment of that must lie in the future, however, it is the promise of ‘all Israel will be saved’, which is the one we need to focus on.

    Many people have tried to explain this away by saying that seeing as all believers are now Jews, then this statement can stand to mean that all the body of Christ will be saved, but this can’t be what is meant, because if we call all believers the Church (which the Bible clearly does) then let’s look at this statement another way. The Church consists of all who are going to be saved, right? So if Paul is speaking of all believers when he says; ‘all Israel’, in v.26, then the statement would read;
    ‘All who are saved will be saved’, which is a foolishly naive thing to say.
    It’s like saying; All boys are males and therefore will grow to be men, or all girls are females and therefore will grow to be women.
    It’s a waste of words to state something that is patently obvious and the Holy Spirit does not waste words.
    The statement makes perfect sense to read it as all Israel will be saved (at some future point in history).
    The problem then becomes; How will this work out?
    Let me say that I for one feel that we should just take it by faith that it will happen, the same way that Abraham believed that he would have a son by Sarah, even though they were both too old for that to occur naturally.
    Paul bases his statement on the scriptures he had. As far as the remnant all being saved, here is one such scripture:-

    Zechariah 13:8-9 (KJV)
    And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord , two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. [9] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

    Jeremiah 31:33-34 (KJV)
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord : for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    The first passage says that those who are left after the cutting off, will call on God’s name (Jesus? most likely, seeing as they can be saved by no other) and He will hear them and say; ‘It is my people’, while they will say; ‘The Lord is my God’.

    The second passage is from the first mention of the New Covenant and again it says that they will ALL know The Lord.

    Seeing as we know that The Lord is Jesus, this can only be referring to them accepting Jesus as the Messiah and we know this hasn’t happened in the way required to satisfy these two passages as yet, so again, this event is still in the future.

    So we have a definite statement made by three different writers, WTO OT, one NT, that tell us that at some stage, all the Jews then living, will be saved. How God achieves that, is not ours to question, but the Word says it, therefore we should believe it.

    One last point, someone here mentioned the fact that Israel was called a ‘wife’ by God in the OT. This is true and God had Hosea act out that relationship in his marrying Gomer, a prostitute and adulterous woman.
    (How’s that for a call to ministry?)
    God divorced Judah and Israel for their adulterous ways, but in Jeremiah, He says an amazing thing:-

    Jeremiah 3:1-15 (KJV)
    They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man’s, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith The Lord.

    Here is God saying that in spite of the fact that His wife has taken many lovers and is now greatly polluted, He wants her back! He calls for her to return to Him, in spite of the fact that such a thing was considered wrong! He goes on to say this:-

    Jeremiah 3:14-15 (KJV)
    Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord ; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: [15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

    So in spite of the fact that His people (His wife) have committed spiritual adultery, God stills calls them His wife. Anyone who doesn’t see grace at work in the OT hasn’t read this passage.

    This shows one of the characteristics of God that is often not really understood as well as it should be; faithfulness. I believe that if more Christian men and women understood what faithfulness really is, then we wouldn’t have as much divorce in the Chruch as we do.

    God is perfectly faithful, naturally, but faithful to what? His Word. God does not make promises then decide to cast them aside because people are unfaithful. He makes a promise to do something and therefore He will do it, no matter what.

    With regard to the ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac , and Jacob, they must come to faith in Jesus Christ. However, God has promised that one day all the remaining Jews will do exactly that. How He achieves that is up to Him, but I am convinced He will do it.

    On that note, I believe that while such discussions as this are good and right, let’s be careful not to discount something we read in scripture just because we can’t see how it fits into what we know of God’s plans and purposes from scripture.

    I don’t understand how Jesus could be 100% God and 100% man, yet the Bible teaches me that it is so, therefore I believe it. I don’t understand how God is ONE, yet there is God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit, but the Bible teaches it, so I believe it.

    Arguments about whether or not Romans 11:26 means that all the Jews on earth will be saved are fruitless, because it says as much and therefore we should believe it. HOW it happens is really irrelevant and to say that it CAN’T happen, but the words must mean something else, is to practice eisegesis, not exegesis, no matter how you look at it.

    I agree that there is much error, wrong teaching, imbalance, and sometimes outright heresy taught about this subject, as there is with many other Biblical doctrines, but let’s try and take in the whole counsel of scripture and maintain good hermeneutics as we search the scriptures for the answers.

    Someone above prayed that God would open our eyes to THE truth about this subject and I applaud and echo that prayer. Let’s do so with humility, prepared to forsake our own pet theories or treasured learning on the subject and be open to really hear what the Spirit would say to us.

    Above all, let’s shy away from trying to build a box to force this subject into, because while the Bible contains everything we need to know, it is impossible that any one of us will achieve a perfect knowledge of all that the scriptures contain.


  199. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Kiity. I suggest staying in the scripture.
    As you mentioned “The Holding place where Christ went is timeless.” The spiritual realm is timeless.
    Btw, dont confuse eternal existance with eternal life. Eternal is a relationship with the Father through His Son.
    The spiritual environment is pretty vast and much larger than we realize. The OT mentions in multiple instances “gathered to your people” or “stand in your lot” which indicates you will be with people “just like you”. As I write, this world has mixture.
    The spiritual realm where G_DS will is done perfectly has no mixture and is very much in order.This is His Kingdom and His order. It will come to the earth and every time one prays the L_RDS prayer – that is exactly what they are praying – G_Ds will be done in the earth as it is in heaven.

    Here are some scriptures to consider and allow me to suggest the type of “person you are” will determine “where you go” and not the other way around.

    – … for thou shalt rest, and shalt stand in thy lot, at the end of the days.
    – He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
    – But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    -But you have come to Mount Zion….You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
    – They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness.
    – The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
    – The rich man died and was buried….In Hades, where he was in torment
    – The thief went to be with Jesus in Paradise (note not the Kingdom)
    – Paul wanted to go with Christ.

  200. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Pandora Brinker– if I may continue on your thought…
    Just as when we go through a vinyard in the winter and see a vine with no branches, this is Jesus. All branches were cut off due to sin. Considering the timelessness of God, we now start with a bare stump of a vine. Then, through faith any who believe will be grafted in. This is actually a timeless example and there never was an “Israel” without faith in Jesus. All who were unfaithful were cut off which includes all descendants of Jacob.
    The Just shall live by faith. This is an OT scripture and a NT scripture.
    During OT times their faith had to be in a coming Messiah, who was Jesus, and when Jesus died he went to show himself to those who had died before. After Jesus our faith has to be in Jesus only.

  201. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Kitty always a good idea to stay in the scriptures.
    1 Peter 3 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits–
    Eph 4When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men

  202. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    Would some of you long-winded people please go back and read what Journeman said. (you will have to scroll back quite a ways)

  203. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    I for one must confess, if I see a post that is longer than my computer screen, I scroll down to see how much longer, and then I usually keep scrolling down to the next comment anyway.

  204. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    Laura thanks, I like the meaning discriptions.
    Although it covered a lot.

    I’ll continue on off it…

    – “Man AND Beast” were created on The 6th Day.

    Man not Circumcised:
    From Flesh/Heart is considered by God A Beast as well.

    – Jacob demanded a Blessing.
    And so, was Israel, wrestling with God to win.
    Becareful not to wrestle with God.
    He just may give-in to your demands!

    For The Children 0f Israel are still wrestling with God!
    But the time is coming He will not strive with them for ever….

  205. The WORD that Jesus spoke to Jews when He was in their midst are still valid today. God spoke His last word to them through His Son. Here is what He said to Jews:

    John 3:34 “For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    John 8:24 “if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

    We who have been grafted in need to love and pray for the natural branches not yet saved. I treat ALL Jews outside of Christ as lost and in need of Christ and His shed blood….NOW. TODAY is the Day of Salvation.

    There were two strands of Christianity in the NT. There was a Jewish Christianity that continued in the feasts and Jewish ways. There was also a Gentile Christianity that simply observed the Council’s Decree found in Acts 15. Messianic Christianity gives the Jew no excuse to reject Christ. Let us pray for Messianic Christianity to win the Jews. Amen

  206. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    But listen to this amazing and spectacular good news: Paradise is going to be moved ONCE AGAIN!
    When Jesus comes he is bringing Paradise with him to THE EARTH- paradise will once again BE HERE ON THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH – just as it was in Adams day before Adam fell!

    And Earth and Paradise will once again become ONE AND THE SAME PLACE AND guess WHO will always take the central place in Paradise? ” JESUS- the “tree of life”
    “I am the resurrection and the life”
    ” and the tree of life WHICH IS IN THE CENTRE OF PARADISE”
    Amen! Come LORD JESUS!!!!

  207. antypas4; What is doing good? For every man that exists one could probably get a different definition of “good”. Is the ultimate act of doing good dying to save another from evil?

    Just before Christ sets up His Mellinium reign after the Wrath of Vials is over, He is sorting through the nations, separating the sheep from the goats. What is His criteria for that separation? Also remember, that all who survive the Wrath bow down before Him. The criteria for that separation is how they treated His brethren. Who are His brethren? Those whom He is related to physically…the Jewish DNA, and those who realized after the Wrath started that Jesus is the Way (too late to miss the Wrath, but not to late to follow His Way). What is Jesus’s Way? It is to die for our neighbor if need be to protect that neighbor from evil? During the Wrath when all those who are not worshipping the false one are being persecuted (just like Hitler persecuted the Jews) there will be “sheep” who will risk their lives to feed the persecuted, cloth them, shelter them, visit them in prison, give them water when they are thirsty. Those who care more about their own safety are the goats. The Wrath brings out the core of man.

    Also, the scriptures that you quote are surrounded on one side or the other by….”those who are found written in the Book of Life”. Who owns the Book of Life? Is it not Jesus Christ, the LAMB?

  208. “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” -John 3:36

    The WORD teaches that the wrath of God remains on the Jew until Jesus is believed on and received. The present state of Israel will meet the same fate as they did in 589 B.C. and 70 A.D.

    Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God….
    Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, John 18. It has no geographical boundaries, nor earthly Temple. Those who worship God now worship Him in Spirit and Truth and not on any particular mountain, John 4.

    “The Jerusalem above, she is our mother.”
    “For here we have no lasting city but we seek the one to come.” Hebrews 13:14
    “We seek the city whose Builder and Maker is God.” Heb. 11:10

    “You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant. Hebrews 12:22-24

  209. This is an interesting topic. I have not read through the two hundred replies, but I have family in Israel. If you ever go there it is clearly a special place. It is also clear that God has His hand on Israel to this day. Miracle after miracle has happened as God has protected them in this, our day. Ezek. 36-39 ch. cover what is happening in our time, scripture being fulfilled. They have paid a terrible price so that we, the gentiles, could have a saviour! Their time is coming, and God has not changed in His heart towards them. I do question Messianic Jews tendency to continue to keep the feasts and the return to feast keeping of some Christians, as you said, Andrew, the substance is Christ. If the substance is here, then why keep working the shadows? The OT continues to apply to both the Jews and the church….but anything we can do to break down the dividing wall between Messianics and Christians would be a good thing…even men wearing hats….the NT teaches clearly against a man having his head covered, but they all wear the kifa (sp) Eph. 2 speaks of ONE NEW MAN, not a divided into a Jews and Gentiles group. Now I am going to try to wade through all the comments!

  210. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    There are two resurrections. Paul was striving to the attain to the first. The Greek supports this. Christ taught on the resurrection of the just / righteous and this is also in the book of Revelations.
    There is the “elect”, the first fruits, the called/chosen/faithful of Christ. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. This is His warrior bride & beloved. This is illustrated beautifully in the Song of Soloman (the Shulamite).
    There is the rest of body and there are “least ” to the “greatest” as seen in the scripture you mentioned (Matt 25) of the brothers of Christ.
    There are also “saved” nations who have no idea of who Jesus is but are regarded as righteous because of their treatment to the least of the brothers of Christ.

    Btw, His “elect” are already judged and have already been resurrected in their bodies – the scriptures support this. in regards to the Book of Life, it is full of names….

    On Christian growth and right / wrong. (Heb 5)
    But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

    Christian Discipleship is a opportunity – make the best of it.


  211. Barry, words I use are confusing because I make them up to keep things as short as I can and I do not have the “church” terminology. The “Holding Place” for me is what you describe, and it is separated by the gulf. The evil ones are separated from those who had good hearts, but not necessarily a belief in Jesus Christ. Those who loved their neighbor and wanted the best for their neighbor, even if they did not know the law. The Holding place separates according to the heart. Evil on one side and Good on the other. When Christ went there, I believe that those that were attracted to Him, not ever hearing about Him, made a connection with Him, and after the Mellinnium they will be restored and they will be in His Book of Life. My opinion from what has been written according to my understanding of the words.

    Again, I would refer you to the post I wrote regarding the nations being separated according to their sheepness or goatness before Christ begins His Millinnial Reign, God with Us. Why do you think God requires this last process of the Millinnium before the final judgement that goes into the 2nd Death?

  212. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    If you want to have treasure in heaven – sell everything you have and give it to the poor, widows, and orphans and follow Jesus.

    These people will never forget what you have done and neither will G_D. They will remember you for eternity and will be a treasure to you and you will to them. They will welcome you and so will G_D.
    He is not debtor to no one and He repays with interest and with joy.. There are many teachings of Christ and the apostles on this…


  213. Hello again,
    I just wanted to comment on the verse in Galatians that so many refer to:-

    Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Most people will quote this and say that this means that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ and in a sense they are correct, as we are all saved the same way, through faith in Christ.
    However, it is NOT saying that all such distinctions cease when one is saved, because if it did, then logically there is now no distinction (AT ALL) between a man and a woman, something which is patently absurd. Men are still men and women are still women after they are saved. This verse does NOT say that Gentiles become Jews, or vice versa. What it does say, is that we are all one in Christ.

    The next verse says:-

    Galatians 3:29 (KJV)
    And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    This still doesn’t make us Jews, as Abraham had more than one son. He had several children, but it was only through Isaac that the promise was transmitted, then through only one of Isaac’s children, Jacob. It is only those who are descended from Jacob, that are called Israelites, children of Israel, or Jews, to use the modern terminology.

    As believers in Christ, we are children of Abraham and ‘heirs according to the promise’. Which promise? The promise made to Abraham. The fact is that both Jews and Gentiles must be born again by faith in Jesus Christ to become spiritual heirs of the spiritual part of God promise to Abraham. A Jew who is saved remains a Jew, in the same way that a man who is saved remains a man. A gentile who is saved remains a Gentile in the same way also. He does not become a Jew through salvation, anymore than a saved woman can become a man through salvation, or vice versa.

    All believers are heirs of the promise, but remain Jew, Gentile, Man, Woman, etc. They are all saved the same way, but they don’t change either their ethnicity, nor their gender.
    Those people who insist that the racial distinction between Jew and Gentile disappears when a person is saved, must allow that gender distinctions also disappear to be logically consistent when they quote this verse. As you can imagine, such a thing cannot possibly be scripturally valid.
    It opens up all kinds of cans of worms (particularly where the ‘gay’, or transgender issue is concerned!).

    It is very important to read scripture carefully and not take parts of verses and make them into statements while disregarding the implications of making the same statement about the rest of the verse. One of the most dangerous practices these days is taking parts of verses and making them into ‘fridge magnets’, or slogans, while ignoring the context of the phrase in question.

    A classic example is the misquoting of Paul’s statement here:-

    2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    This is frequently used by false teachers to mean that spiritual experiences trump the scriptures in authority, which is not what Paul was saying at all. The context shows that he was contrasting the Spirit with the Law of Moses, not the written Word of God. This is a very important principle to remember when using scripture, that we take into account the context always and don’t make the mistake of making the scriptures say something they’re not.


  214. Yes, Antypas4, I know there are two resurrections….just as there are two deaths….but there is only one Jesus Christ, Son of God, Our Sheppard who is not willing for even one to be lost over the words of mankind. He goes directly to the heart with His message.

  215. Yes, Antypas4; everything I have is His and for His, and I am preparing a place for those will need it going through what is coming and on into the Millinnium. All my needs have already been taken care of…..His Will be done….His Kingdom come….keep us from the temptation coming and deliver us from the Evil One. All Power and Glory is His Forever. He is our Father.

  216. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    your description of The Vine does not seem Scriptural.

    There’s a scriptural difference between
    The Vineyard & The Olive Trees in The Bible.

    ~ The Olive Tree Of God’s Anointing
    Is IN God’s House. – Jer.11

    The Wild Olive Tree Is IN The ‘World’.

    * The Anointing 0f Olive Trees is for
    The Honoring of God & Men. (protective/covering)
    Judge 9:7-9

    Even King David knew that IN God’s House
    he was like A Green Olive Tree. – Ps.52:8
    NOT, IN The House Of Israel.

    – The Vineyard IN The Earth Is The House 0f Israel.
    “For The Vineyard 0f The Lord 0f Hosts
    Is The House 0f Israel” – Is.5:7

    “As A Vine Is The Remnant Of Israel” – Jer.6:9

    Is It Any wonder Jesus Said, “I am the (TRUE) Vine”?

    For Abiding IN Him And Not Israel…

  217. DonaldN Apr 12th 2013

    you state…However, it is NOT saying that all such distinctions cease when one is saved, because if it did, then logically there is now no distinction (AT ALL) between a man and a woman, something which is patently absurd. Men are still men and women are still women after they are saved. This verse does NOT say that Gentiles become Jews, or vice versa. What it does say, is that we are all one in Christ.

    It is not that these distinctions cease, it is that they become irrelevant. To continue to consider these distinctions is to be looking at the flesh, not the spirit. This is where a lot of carnal doctrine begins.

  218. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    Seeing what is said in Rev.14 about The Vine Of The Earth being thrown into The Wine Press 0f God’s Wrath? Whcih is trampled up to the horse’s bridle? Is it any wonder Jesus’ Robe will be bipped in blood on His horse when He tramples The Wine Press of Almight God? – Rev.14:17-20 – Rev.19:13,15

  219. Donald N stated: “I does little good to encourage folks to stick to Bible Truth, because each one thinks his/her interpretation is the truth.”

    Absolutely, and that is why we need the Mellinnium Reign of God with mankind for 1,000 years. At the end of the Millinnium all will be on the same page when it comes to understanding, but their hearts will not be. Some will still desire what the dragon has to offer, and will chose their will, or the dragon’s will over God’s.

  220. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    The 144,000 0f ALL The Children 0f Israel is The Remnant.
    That will make up The His Davidic Kingdom on earth during the 1,000 yr reign.

    When the 12 Apostles 0f The Lamb will Sit 0n 12 Thrones Judging The 12 Tribes Of Isael In the Regeneration.
    Matt.19:28 – Rev.20:4

    Theres No Warrior-Bride.

    The 144,000 do not marry The Lamb,
    The King of kings and Lord of lords.

    Only the Great Multitude Marry The Lamb before The Throne 0f God In White Robes with Palms in hand. – Rev.7:9

    The Great Multitude are called to The (Marriage) Super 0f The Lamb. Not the (wedding) of The Lamb. – Rev.19:1,6,7

    How did she The Great Multitude make herself Ready for The Marriage Supper 0f The Lamb? She Washed her Robes White In The Lamb’s Blood when they came out of the great tribulation. – Rev.7:9,14

  221. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    “The Wife 0f The Lamb”
    will Not be a part of The 1,000 yr Reign 0n Earth.

    They The Great Multitude, will be of heavenly-New Jerusalem all during the Davidic reign of 1,000 yrs on the Regeneration earth.
    They will be The Pillars 0f New Jerusalem coming out no more having written on them New Jerusalem. – Rev.3:12 – Rev.21:2

    -Not everyone will be “The Lamb’s Wife”
    -Not everyone will ‘live and reign with Christ for a 1,000 yrs.

    Two different Kingdoms for two different groups of peoples.

  222. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    The ” sheep and the goat nations” teaching comes from a truncated interpretation of Mtt. 24: here I the full context to prove this:

    “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-38, 40-46 NASB)

    1.The “nations” here is NOT referring to countries or even to people groups. The word “nations” Jesus uses here is the Greek “ethnos” . In the context it simply refers to INDIVIDUALS from every ethnicity and background.
    2. This scene described by Jesus IS NOT entire counties and their entire populations NOR does it refer to moral choices governments or kingdoms make.

    The scene Jesus is describing is THE FINAL JUDGEMENT of individuals a–NOT PEOPLE GROUPS OR COUNTRIES!
    Nations don’t visit imprisoned saints, nations don’t give a glass of water to individual saints, nations don’t look after sick saints.
    Individuals DO OR DON’T DO all these things for Jesus IN HIS PEOPLE.
    4. Notice also Jesus mentions individuals “these the least of my people”.

  223. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Pandora. The scriptures of Christ, Paul, and Revelation support 2 Resurrections… I will keep this short and ” ” the high point. Note they dont come to life till they are resurrected 🙂
    Rev 20
    Then I saw “thrones, and seated on them” were those to” whom the authority to judge “was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. “They came to life and reigned with Christ” for a thousand years.
    “The rest of the dead did not come to life” until the thousand years were ended. “This is the first resurrection”.
    “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!” Over such the second death has no power, but “they will be priests of God and of Christ”, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

  224. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @ Pandora – There is only one Kingdom…It is singular and not plural. No where in the scriptures does it denote “kingdoms” of G_D. The Kingdom of God is a place and a rulership.
    Rev 11 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

  225. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    Here is something else you’ve never been taught:

    There is no Resurrection
    with The Rapture 0f The Wise Virgins.

    The Rapture of The Great Multitude
    have no record of dying. – Rev.7:9
    The Wise Virgins have no record of dying when being ready to go into The Wedding with The Bridegroom. – Matt.25

    The First Resurrection is of those beheaded by The Beast. – Rev.20 They live and reign with Christ 1,000 yrs.

    The Second Resurrection is of ‘the just & the unjust’.
    – Rev.20:12-15

  226. Pandora, dont leave out the third 🙂

    Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

    13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God

    Also –

    Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, “when he will return from the wedding” that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

    “when he will return from the wedding”


  227. Barry Schmidt Apr 12th 2013

    But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (Philippians 1:23, 24 NASB)

    Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 NASB)
    Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. (Luke 16:22, 25 NASB)
    Clearly saints who die in The Lord are NOT sleeping as you say.
    They are “with The Lord” and they are “talking”

    Maybe they are all sleep talking! Lol

  228. sleep walking 🙂 🙂

  229. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Allow me to suggest reading Rev 19 alongside Rev 20…They are the same group of people….

    In regards to Rev 7- the word “rapture” is never mentioned and the context supports they did go though tribulation
    “Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.
    The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat…‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.


  230. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    Jesus will sit on the Throne of His father David to rule The Davidic Kingdom for 1,000 years on the Regenerated earth with His 12 Aposltes judging The 12 Tribes 0f Israel.

    The Kingdom 0f God is IN The City Heavenly (new) Jerusalem.

    “KingdomS 0f The World
    Have Become The KingdomS 0f Lord and His Christ”

    “Isaiah said, “For unto US a Child is born Unto US a son was given; And The GOVERNMENT will be Upon His shoulders…of the increase of HIS Government and peace there will be no end Upon The Throne 0f David and Over HIS Kingdom To Order It and Establish It With JUDGMENT & Justice from that time forward even forever. – Is.9:6,7

  231. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Forgot to mention this regarding the group in white robes
    Rev 6
    I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been

    “until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.”


  232. Pandora Brinker Apr 12th 2013

    If you can show that The Great Multitude die?

    Then you can say they weren’t Raptured Alive.

    The Lamb leads (TGM) to fountains of Living WaterS
    to keep their bodies alive.

    For The Great Multitude also speaks as the voice of Many WaterS. – Rev.19:6

  233. watchful Apr 12th 2013

    One thing I am sure of, is that there is only ONE gospel…it is THE gospel to the Jew first and then for the gentile, and all must come by way of the cross. Be very careful of having one gospel for the gentiles and a slightly different gospel for the Jews, it is a very gradual slippery slope. Hebrew mindset or Greek mindset….but all need to have minds renewed to the mind of Christ, which is not Hebrew any longer since He died and rose, but is spiritual.

  234. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Barry – you brought up a great point…It is relationship / person.
    Paul stated “I want to know Christ–yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings”….

    Btw, Pandora you might want to go and search the Greek for Kingdoms of G_D and His Christ- it isnt present in the Greek. Nor did Jesus, the apostles, or the OT mention “Kingdoms” – this cannot be denied.

    Why do you think G_D is training His elect ? It is to govern His creation. Btw, G_D does not dwell in buildings or temples. Only in people. Peter mentioned “living stones”. That is why there is no temple in Rev 21 – only people
    The only way for the saved nations to come and experience G_D will be through His elect / chosen. They will see Christ in you (it is a wonderful gift of omnipresence).


  235. Jew and gentile, BOTH need to accept the covering of the blood of the Lamb Who was slain, for atonement; BUT, the jew belongs to the ‘family of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ since Mt. Sinai/Horeb, when G-d chose them to be HIS children, and they agreed to be HIS children.

    The gentile not ONLY needs atonement, BUT the gentile needs to be ‘adopted’ into the family of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Lamb Who was slain, IS also the gentile’s ‘token Jew’ Who, when the gentile accepts the covering of the blood of the Lamb Who was slain for atonement, completes and files the adoption papers, so that the gentiles,too, belong to the ‘family of G-d’ by adoption.

    The Bride, then, is composed of ALLl those who have accepted the covering of the blood of the Lamb Who was slain for our atonement — both jew and gentile.

    Further, Romans 9-11 explains very clearly that the jew will have a hardened heart, stubborn neck, blind eyes and deaf ears UNTIL the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

    “This hardness on the part of insider Israel toward God is temporary. Its effect is to open things up to all the outsiders [gentiles] so that we end up with a full house. Before it’s all over, there will be a complete Israel. As it is written, ‘A champion will stride down from the mountain of Zion; he’ll clean house in Jacob. And this is my commitment to my people–removal of their sins.

    “From your point of view as you hear and embrace the good news of the Message, it looks like the Jews are God’s enemies. But looked at from the long-range perspective of God’s overall purpose, they remain God’s oldest friends. God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded”(Romans 11:25-29).

    Both jew and gentile, as members of the family of G-d, need to allow HIS Holy Spirit Who dwells within, instruct, direct and coach YOU as you read the WORD. G-d has told His children that “I am the Lord, I change not” Malachi 3:6) and that the Lord “is the same, yesterday, today and forever” (Heb. 13:8).

    Walk faithfully according to the revealed WORD.

  236. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    “Then you can say they weren’t Raptured Alive.”
    Well, neither can you.

    “The Lamb leads (TGM) to fountains of Living WaterS
    to keep their bodies alive.” (show chapter & verse)
    One doesn’t become alive till they receive their body back and this is reserved for the first resurrection – this cannot be denied.
    Btw, the book of Revelations is bound with a blessing and curse- it is the only book of the bible that is. How you interpret it is your business. Allow me to suggest – be careful

    Rev 22 if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


  237. I’ve always been wary of a potential anti-semitic quality about replacement theology. It flows directly from their doctrine as a logical conclusion. The nation of Israel has no relevance to the plans and purposes of God as they see it. It is a fraud, a deception for the masses of unenlightened christians. Consequently demonic in it’s re-emergence. To reject the national future for ethnic Israel seems vulnerable to an antagonistic attitude toward Jewish people in general and the nation of Israel at large. When and if a Jewish person rejects the gospel, we still should have hope for their national destiny as the Bible foretells.

    As much as Christian Zionists favor the nation of Israel against the Palestinian cause it seems the Replacement people oppose Israel in favor of the Palestinian cause. They see the nation of Israel as something to be opposed based on their theological framework of being irrelevant to the true message of the Church being Israel. It is a much more dangerous position to hold than it seems on the surface due to the future destiny of Israel. It also gets very political from both sides and can find it’s result in opposing God’s prophetic plan.

    This kind of attitude is not without historical basis. I think of Martin Luther’s attitude toward the Jews.

    “At the beginning of the Reformation, Luther was so certain that he had restored original Christianity, he believed the Jews would now finally come to Christ. When his imaginings failed to materialize, Luther turned against the Jews with fury. In 1543, Luther penned a work entitled The Jews and Their Lies. He addressed the work to the German princes, urging them to take violent measures against the Jews”- David Bercot

    When the Jews rejected Martin Luther’s gospel he responded by turning on the Jews with virulent anti-semitism. The roots of the Holocaust in Germany go back 400 years to the days of Martin Luther and his rejection of the Jews when they rejected his gospel.

    It would seem to me that God is seeking to spare us from any confusion by foretelling us of His future acceptance of Israel as a nation and that we best be careful lest we find ourselves fighting against God.

  238. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Davo brought up a great point regarding Luther and anti-semitism.
    I might be able to add something to this regarding being a witness to Jews.
    It requires real righteousness, holiness, and truth. They look at the type of person you are and your behavior.
    It is very difficult to tell a Jew to accept “Jesus to go the heaven” (unscriptural) if there is no moral character in speech, thought, words, and appearance.
    Because if heaven is filled with people like that – then they would prefer to be somewhere else.

    As Davo pointed out here is Luthers read on Jews…

  239. Someone once said that the fact that the Jews are still a nation with their culture, language & religion still the same after 2000 years of dispersion and no homeland, proves there must be a God.
    I read somewhere that it has never happened that a people have been separated for over 200 years & maintained their culture, language & religion.
    On top of this how many times have the nations tried to wipe them out.
    Their survival, with no homeland is an absolute miracle no one can deny. Only God can do that.

  240. Lightning Storm Apr 12th 2013

    AMEN! Luke……the TRUTH will set us free. Thank you for sharing.

    Resist the Holy Spirit and the heart will be hardened.

  241. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Also in regards to what Ian mentioned – no other race of people have contributed / won more Nobel Peace prizes or contributed more to religion, science, physics, literature, law than the Jews.

    Psa 123
    Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you”.For the sake of the house of the LORD our G_d I will seek your good.

  242. I heard they also have the highest IQ’s in the world. That’s why they win the prizes but I must say that peace price is a load of politically correct nonsense. the others are the real thing & the Jews rake them in.
    Argue till the cows come home folks, God is very interested in the Jews, like it or not.

  243. Dear, dear, dear me! And to think! Jesus said to us: “You shall know the truth and the truth SHALL set you free”. I know, I know! Man has to duke it out so he’ll “know” he’ll know better than any other Brother.. The Bible doesn’t say to do that, or be a party to it. ANYTHING that does not point you to Christ, (almost the entire Bible, page by page, points to Jesus). When He said, “Study to show yourself approved”, He didnot tell us to ‘study and show ourselves confused’…There are parables and paradoxical sayings throughout His Word. Didn’t He say those who are not His will not understand His words? Haven’t you read ‘a verse or chapt.’ in need of an answer and been mightily blessed….then you go to it the next time and expect to be mightily blessed again, just to read it flat on the page, and not saying the same thing to you??? That’s what I call the Living Bible, the living word. Hallejuah!

    Keep your eyes on Him. Trust and Obey Him, and His statues. Why is His Word To keep the nosy folk out. Man, can it stunt growth. And, it does. I enjoy fellowshipping personally, not through words and arguments….looking back, sometimes it’s a necessary process, unfortunately. Okay, let’s keep it going.

    NO, replacement theology is made up of man’s doctrine and kept growing through religious, die-luted men in the last century….By religious-‘loving’ men who did not like any of the Jews, like Hitler (to come.) When they saw the Jews, they were only seeing ‘themselves in that dark mirror. Woe is them.

    Have you noticed? This same ‘spiritual’ anti-christ wind is permeating the world at this time??? as it was during Hitler’s time. Same subjects, same very obvious actions.That wasn’t too long ago, now it’s polituting America. All the butchers in History, that killed millions upon millions of their own people.,… Russia, China, Hitler,..every communist-socialist backer on the world stage were haters of God. And they love death. They want to wipe everyone out, who do not think like they do.. No, I don’t trust America as far of I can throw her. Captialism has a strange stench as well (Money-mongers).. Only difference: The Bible says Life loves life (freedom). Death likes death.(captivity, dying).

    The anti-Christ group will take on their own kind, if they don’t believe in lock step., exactly with their idealology. What a smoke screen they put up, and all lies. The time is here; look up and be joyous; His plan is right on tract. Yes, “Come Lord Jesus”

  244. paz mayim Apr 12th 2013

    God bless you, Mark Wildman…until I read your very thoughtfully written response, I was becoming very discouraged with the comments to Andrew’s article. I had been raised with absolutely NO knowledge of God’s relationship to the Jewish people; and then I read, via the Holy Spirit’s direct prompting, all of the prophecies regarding Israel.

    Within a year I became involved in a Messianic Jewish congregation and all of my time was spent learning everything I could to reach Jewish people with the good news of Messiah Yeshua! Yes, there were congregants who wanted the “experience” of Jewish worship for themselves.

    I would encourage everyone to read Mark’s explanation of the fulfillment of the Torah (law) through Yeshua/Jesus; and begin to recognize that He never never came to abolish the law. (Matthew 5:17).

    God has never given up on the salvation of His chosen people, and when Yeshua/Jesus returns, the millenial reign will be IN Israel. Definitely re-read Romans 9-11.

    Our response to our salvation (whether a Jew or a gentile believer) is to lift up Yeshua for all men to see..and make disciples of them (Jew or gentile).

  245. Israel had never occupied all of the borders promised to her but one day soon she will –

    Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


  246. Watchful??? You said it like I should have.!!! I went the long route for nothin’. These are not just words to fit in, These are life and flowing. With JOY. Amen!

    “One thing I am sure of, is that there is only ONE gospel…it is THE gospel to the Jew first and then for the gentile, and all must come by way of the cross. Be very careful of having one gospel for the gentiles and a slightly different gospel for the Jews, it is a very gradual slippery slope. Hebrew mindset or Greek mindset….but all need to have minds renewed to the mind of Christ, which is not Hebrew any longer since He died and rose, but is spiritual.

  247. Re: Replacement – Israel and the Church

    Shalom, shalom,


    It does not matter if you believe this word or not it will surely come to pass just as day follows night.

    If every word of this prophecy does not come to pass exactly as I have stated, then I am not sent by YHWH and I am a false prophet indeed. May YHWH deal with me ever so severely (even unto immediate death that the saints of Heaven might re-learn the fear of YHWH), if I have presumed to swear falsely and proclaim in His most set-apart name what He has not proclaimed.

    On September 5th this year, the western economy will collapse and never recover. This will cause every born again, Spirit-filled believer to cry out in prayer and desperate humility like never before. In answer to this universal cry the voice of the Spirit will say, “You are not the church, you are Yisrael the chosen bride of my Son – (Hoshea 1&2). Come out of her My people!”

    Thus fulfilling the prophecies of YirmeYahu 16:19 and the final outcome of the narrative of Esther (Esther means concealed / hidden until the appointed time comes). The bride (Yisrael) will humble herself for three full years and cry out for Yahudah to be saved (both physical and spiritual salvation.)

    At this exact same time, there will be a universal cry from everyone who is not born again and filled with the Spirit and that cry will be for every Jew on this planet to be put to death immediately. Even if you have 1% Jewish blood they will demand your death, whether you believe in the Messiah or not.

    During this time YHWH will supernaturally provide for and protect His people (I.e. the whole house of Yisrael)… Without money!

    Thus fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah 16:14-15 and the prophecy of the first two years of the great famine in the days of Joseph.

    On the 2nd anniversary (from September 6th 2013) on YHWH’s set-apart calendar, the chief Rabbi of the NATION STATE of ISRAEL (Properly known as Yahudah in the Scriptures) will repent of the covenant of death that Caiaphas made with Pontius Pilate and will proclaim that Yahoshua of Nazareth is the Messiah. In that day every Yahudite (Jew) will be saved by favour through faith. By revelation the veil will be removed and the Messiah will be revealed to every heart single heart of the Yahudim (I.e. The Jews).

    Thus fulfilling the prophecy of Benyamin being found guilty with the cup of Joseph in His hand and Yahudah humbling himself on behalf of his brother in true repentance at the end of the second year of the seven years of famine.

    Thus also fulfilling the Pharisee Shaul’s (Acts 23:6) words as recorded in Romans 11:23-29 and the prophecy of Joseph revealing himself to the whole house of Yisrael and their immediate response of prostrating themselves before him and worshiping him in spirit and in truth.

    On September 1st 2016 the bride will be taken by the Groom and they will proceed to the wedding chamber that the Groom has prepared for the bride of covenant.

    There is much, much more that I could say about the events that will transpire from this time forward. However, at this time it is completely unnecessary.

    The bottom line is this… Every born again and Spirit-filled believer is going to be awakened to their true identity on September 6th of this year. The bride will be purified for the following three years, Yahudah will be saved in the second year and all the nations will be judged in their sin and brought into subjection under Yahoshua’s feet.

    In Sincerity and in Truth,

    Rabbi Robert Arthur McDuffie
    Johannesburg, South Africa

  248. “On September 1st 2016 the bride will be taken by the Groom and they will proceed to the wedding chamber that the Groom has prepared for the bride of covenant”

    I’ll have to mark my calender

  249. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    Thank you for the prophecy- I believe this will occur – when I dont know.
    May I ask you do you have a history of accuracy like Agabus in Acts 11 ?

    Btw, “the bride will be taken by the Groom and they will proceed to the wedding chamber that the Groom has prepared for the bride of covenant.” This is true

    Allow me to suggest this will be completely different than most people expect.
    The Jews were quite wrong in the interpretation of scriptures when Messiah came. He was standing right in front of them but they thought He was going to come a completely different than what He did (Luke 19:11 )
    The Gentiles will do the same…
    If it happened to them, it can happen to us – this cannot be denied.
    Btw, interesting combo of numbers


  250. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Good post Davo. Shows us that it is important what we believe as it has an effect on our behaviour.Some people don`t understand why we discuss & think it is a waste of time or not important. And partly that can be so, unless we are seeking to learn more of Christ, His character & His purposes.

    Even though it seems there is a `Babel,` of voices, I`m sure most of us are learning from others, addressing errors we may have plus learning to put our thoughts into words.


  251. Antypas4, this scripture:……

    “Rev 22 if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.”

    ……..applies only to the Book of Revelation. And it concerns deliberately changing it, or adding to it, as would satan, in order to deceive and mislead people. God is not going to condemn anyone who in good faith has a different understanding to the meanings revealed in Revelation… would the Pharisees condemn those who did not accept their understandings of the Law and of the Old Testament Scripture. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to help our understandings, but the Holy Spirit can only help us in so far as we get our own will/ego out of the way. Those who are sincerely seeking to know their Lord better by seeking an understanding where all the scriptures fit into a whole, are not going to be condemned….even if traditional dogmatic churches do not agree with them.

  252. BB; simple, straight and gospel! There are some clever people here. I use to be clever but it’s so difficult for a clever person to distinguish between themselves and the devil. This is a personal confession. But I do not like being evil so I can not be clever. If I lift myself up, no one is saved. Some here are fighting against Christ. Be careful you don’t trap yourself in in the idolatry of superior knowledge.

    You’re very patient Barry. God bless you.

    I am not He and He is not me, but I am in Him and He is in me. This is an act of consummation, pure and Holy and simple. I am married to Christ and will never part from Him. Male or female? In the Spirit I am joined to God. In the Spirit I am neither male nor female. I am as God made me. I do not see it clearly, but I know that He will never leave me nor forsake me. This is love; scriptural and beautiful.

    I have softened my heart, as well. Do not awaken love before it’s time, but when the time does come it is because you’ve given everything up and He knows you won’t turn back. He knows this.

    We all have to walk the path He has laid out for us, but Only God can make us faithful. It is Christ who makes us stand when we’ve done all that we can do to stand.

    It is Jesus who calms the sea. He is our bread. He is life. Why put on rags? Do you not know that you belong to Christ. I know I do. This doesn’t make me special, though to Christ, I am; this is what makes Christ special. There is no life outside of Christ.

    This discussion is a blessing because it shows what is becoming of Christianity. I had a dream I was in a Christian cafe. As I listened to their conversations, I found that everything they said was unfamiliar to me and i have been a believer for well over 40 years. Even in this thread i am beginning to have that sense.

    There is So much room at the Cross. I hope some of you will stay here with me.

    God is good and His name is Jesus.

    Peace in Christ

  253. Davo,



  254. Roman & Mary Kauffman Apr 12th 2013

    Amen, Brother! Right on!

  255. Robert McDuffie; interesting your prediction for September 2013. I too am looking at a window of one year starting in September 2013 for the trumpets to occur. For that to happen the 6th Seal huge earth shaking has to take place…before the 7th Seal is removed from the Scroll. I have come to the conclusion that the 6th Seal foundational earth shaking is the world wide collapse of the economy via the Global Banking system (planned). The reason I believe this is because most of mankind stands on, and looks towards their money for their foundation and their security (not towards God). There will no doubt also be physical geographical earthquakes also. When this happens, and the 7th Seal is removed, there will be a pause for mankind as they seek recovery and survival, in which the 144,000 will be sealed. Than the trumpets will start to sound apocolyptic wars. The sons of Light winning the first three, and the sons of dark winning the following three. (So states the War Scroll found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls).

  256. Dear Mr Strom,
    As a messianic Pastor, I realize there are many disputes and strains in regards to the Messianic movement and the role of Jews and Israel in these days. I do agree with you that the goal is not worship of Israel’ or putting Israel and the Jewish people on some pedestal. The scriptures are clear, there is salvation in no other name than Yeshua. However, I do strongly disagree with some of your inferences. The scriptures contain many covenants, made between God and man. Every covenant is made with Israel, including the New Covenant (Jer.31). One covenant did’nt replace the previous covenant but actually built upon it. Absolutely, we are New covenant believers who are to be led by the spirit, and that is the wonderful impetus of the Messianic movement, Jews and gentiles being infilled with the Ruach HaKodesh, just as Yeshua would prophesy would happen in Mt.23:39! Gentile believers are grafted in to the covenants and promises of Israel, not the other way around.

    No where in the scriptures does it say that the church is the “apple of Gods eye”, that term is still referring to God’s chosen people, Israel. God does not break covenant, but always keeps covenant, to a thousand generations! I agree, gentile believers are not called to live a Jewish lifestyle, or to follow the specific customs and traditions of the Jewish people, but Jewish believers were never told to stop living a Jewish lifestyle once they received Yeshua! Ofcourse, there is no need for the sacrificial system, because He has become the perfect and acceptable sacrifice!

    Mr. Strom, I have read many of your articles in the past and agree with much of what you say. There is much deception in the body of Christ today, and unfortunately, much craziness in the Messianic Movement I am called to and love very much. I do disagree with your implication that first of all there are only 2 covenants. Also, that somehow God would just do away with one covenant and replace it with another. Please do some research on what covenant is all about, and who the covenants are made with. You accuse people of walking in deception when in fact there may be some deception in your theology. The Torah, as I mentioned contains many covenants between the people of Israel and their God, Yeshua did not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Much of the church is totally ignorant of Torah and the covenants, and Israel’s role as recipient of these covenants. as a matter of fact, most Christians unfortunately discount the entire old covenant as law, and then simply say “I am not under law, but grace”, as somehow thinking that Jesus did away with the scriptures He authored!

    Mr. Strom, you do in fact state quite clearly that you do believe in “Replacement”, as so many spirit-filled believers do today. The role of Israel and the Jewish people in the last days is huge. What is happening before our very eyes is fulfillment of scripture, and He in fact will return to a Jewish Jerusalem, with Jewish people crying out “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Please don’t let a few wacky gentile Jewish “wannabees”, deceive you!

    Shalom and Blessings,
    Stewart Lieberman
    Pastor, Church In The City/ Beth Abraham
    Denver, Co.

  257. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    Stewart – the last 2000 years shows clearly that Israel is NOT at the “centre” of God’s dealings with mankind under the New Covenant.

    It is the CHURCH that is at the centre of God’s purposes in the earth – in evangelizing and saving mankind.

    So why should we put so much focus on Israel and being “grafted in” to Israel?

    I want to get people “grafted in” to Jesus!

    And the Church is at the centre of that mission. Sorry – but it is true. (I do love Israel, though!)

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  258. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    As I said earlier, people, PLEASE do not post your “End-Times” prognostications on this thread.

    Thanks so much


  259. Andrew S, i agree with that, that the Church is at the center of God’s purposes, since the last 2000 years.

    Israel as a Nation, at the moment are blinded in part (Rom 11:25) but that does not mean individual Jews can’t be saved, as they can and become part of the Church.

    The Church has NOT replaced Israel and they will be the center of God’s dealings in the final seven years “Daniel’s 70th week” (Dan 9:24)

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


  260. watchful Apr 12th 2013

    the Lord bless you craig, I hope so too.

    oh Joan, I am learning the hard way, always wandering into other pastures, thankfully not too far out of my Shepherd’s reach, His rod and His staff they comfort me. If not for Him…….i don’t even want to think of it!

    Robert McDuffie, no man knows the day nor the hour…….I have never so far heard a prophecy that names a day to come true. Maybe this will be a first, time will tell. I was blessed by the wonderful reminder of Joseph and his brothers, and the cup that Benjamin was found with. What a Day that will be!

    Thank you Stewart Lieberman for not placing a burden on us gentiles. 🙂 Sometimes I have felt pressure to conform, so that is a relief and refreshing to hear. Shalom to you too, I am glad you are saved and pray for many more of your people to come to faith in the Messiah. Times of the gentiles are nearly over, and night cometh, so we must prepare for it, and pray for the Jews until that Day dawns.. come quickly Lord Jesus.

  261. Barry Scmidt, I think that Mathew 25, first of all is a parable of what will happen, in line with the parables concerning the end times that Christ spoke just before this one which concerns His sorting of the sheep and goats. This parable makes it pretty clear that Christ is supernaturally sorting those individuals of all the nations who have come through the tribulation of the trumpets, and most of the Vial Wrath, as He is returning with His Host of angels to commense the final battle of Armmeggedon, where He has gathered the goats of the nations who would come against Israel for their destruction. The sheep who have helped His brethren who were being persecuted by those following the dragon He has tucked away and they will inherit His Kingdom which comes….the Mellinnium Kingdom. It is also possible that within this Kingdom, the curse on the earth is removed (people will live longer as before the curse), and people going into it with clay bodies will survive until the dragon is once again released. Whether these sheep inherit a transformed body at the beginning of the Mellinnium or at the end I am not sure. Parables have been taught according to our understandings. I believe that the Kingdom we are praying for is the Mellinium Kingdom that last for 1,000 years on earth, because that is the one that the rest of the Lord’s prayer also speaks about in conjunction with “lead us not into temptation and deliver us from Evil. (temptation to worship the antichrist and the Evil that returns to earth as in the time of Noah…fallen angels with their leader) I also read somewhere that the rest of the prayer, “for Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, forever” was added at a later date by one of the translators of the original text, according to his understandings.

    There is scripture that definitely speaks to how God draws those He wants to destroy down upon Israel during this last and 7th apocolyptic battle….this drawing could also be interpreted as a sorting to the left! As being on the right hand of God is symbolic of serving Him, or His Will.

    Christ returns with a Host of angels, and those Vials are being poured out all over the world. Christ has sorted out those sheep according to their hearts (some will come through safely and some will be martyred), and He has sorted the goats/tares and marked them for destruction.

    The Church Saints were at this time of sorting already transformed in a twinkling at the beginning of the sounding of the last trumpet.

    My opinion.

  262. Andrew Apr 12th 2013

    What is very clear from Scripture is that as long as the Church is here on earth, she is the centre of God’s plan of salvation for mankind.

    A “remnant” of Israel can only be saved by coming to Christ.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  263. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    Good thoughts as usual Watchful, always appreciate you getting straight to the point.

    Barry Schmidt

    As you said, `amazing, spectacular good news,`
    that Jesus will be central to the new earth,
    that the earth will be as it was in Adams day before the fall.

    And the Bible also says
    that people will populate the New Earth,
    that they will have resurrected bodies as Adam had.

    What wonderful promises God gave to mankind.

    But God also said that He
    `seated Him (Christ) at His right hand in the heavenly places
    FAR ABOVE all rule & authority, power & dominion, ….
    .(Eph.1: 20 & 21)
    And `by Him (Christ) all things were created, both in the heavens & on the earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities….` (Col. 1: 16)

    So Christ`s kingdom extends FAR beyond this spect of earthly sphere, yes, to the New Jerusalem & FAR BEYOND to include greater realms.

    May the Lord enlighten our eyes (of faith) to see Him who is pre-eminent over all -whether on earth or in heaven. (Col. 1: 20)


  264. Watchful, RE: “One thing I am sure of, is that there is only ONE gospel…it is THE gospel to the Jew first and then for the gentile, and all must come by way of the cross. Be very careful of having one gospel for the gentiles and a slightly different gospel for the Jews, it is a very gradual slippery slope. Hebrew mindset or Greek mindset….but all need to have minds renewed to the mind of Christ, which is not Hebrew any longer since He died and rose, but is spiritual.”

    Very good! And we are so thankful that God had(s) a heart which desires A People to groom to His eternal glory. That would be Israel who repent, that would be us who repent, and that would be all He brings unto Himself via grace and faith in Jesus Christ. Praise His Glorious Name Forevermore!

    Good posts for learning here! Thanks to all.


    In my darkness Jesus found me;
    Touched my eyes and made me see;
    Broke sin’s chains that long had bound me;
    Gave me life and liberty!

    Oh, glorious love of Christ my Lord divine,
    That made Him stoop to save a soul like mine.
    Through all my days, and then in heaven above,
    My song will silence never,
    I’ll worship Him forever,
    And praise Him for His glorious love.

    Oh, amazing truth to ponder;
    He whom angel hosts attend,
    Lord of Heaven, God’s Son, what wonder;
    He became the sinner’s friend! ~John W Peterson

  266. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Kity – yes you are correct on Revelation – it is the only book in the bible bound with a blessing and a curse. Having a different interpretation / point of view is always acceptable and permitted in circles and shouldnt cause a ruckus.
    However, many pastors/teachers distort the scriptures till they are simply unrecognizabl (2 Pter 3:16…unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.).
    Discussing the Torah, prophets, Epistles, gospels within the scope of a can quite often lead to broad interpretations and liberties with the text.

    However, the Book of Revelation is a bit different. While broad interpretations is always permitted.
    Liberties with adding/subtracting the ‘logon/words’ is bound with a curse – and it applies to “everyone and anyone” (Rev 22:18).
    This cannot be denied.
    The book has a blessing as well Rev 1:3 when read out loud & understood & act accordingly imo
    “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”
    Knowing the good/bad consequences – feel free to proceed forward at your own risk or blessing.

  267. @ Andrew, I believe from Romans 11 that more than a remnant of Israel will be saved in the last days….I believe there will be a large scale turning to Him whom they pierced….God accomplished His own purposes in the Jews rejection of Christ, but their turning will be *life from the dead*.

  268. Jeanette Apr 12th 2013

    Deuteronomy 32:9 & 10 For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

    Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

    Now, can you show me scripture that says the Church is the apple of God’s eye?

  269. Andrew S, may i make another comment on your reply to Stewart and please, i do not mean to be contraversal. But what you said to Stewart, lines up perfectly with dispensational thinking, please let me explain –

    What is a dispensation?

    Some will say that it is a period of “time” but to me that is only, maybe, half right –

    A dispensation is where God deals with a “particular people” in a “particular way” which happens to fall “into a period of time”

    Having said that –

    The previous “dispensation” to this “dispensation of the Church” was to Israel under the Mosiac Law, where Israel was the center of God’s purposes and Who He was “particulally” dealing with at that time. And “now” in “this dispensation of the Church” it is the Church that He is “particuarlly” dealing with, the center of His purpose.

    Maybe i will add to this later


  270. Val @ Andrew, I believe from Romans 11 that more than a remnant of Israel will be saved in the last days….

    Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

    13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


  271. Richard Savage Apr 12th 2013

    I’m a Jew, a Christian Jew.

    I changed from cold, legalistic Judaism to a living Christ under Billy Graham in 1967. I was sixteen years old. I thought I was entering another family, the family of Christ, but, sadly, I wasn’t. Some of my birth family followed me, and some fell away; the church has yet, after two thousand years, so much to learn and so little time.

    It’s good indeed to read of three others of the same ilk on this thread. Thank you for being so honest, Marc and others. It’s not easy, even or forums.

    The issue under discussion is a Gentile church matter, of no consequence to either the Jewish people or the regenerate people called Christians. I’m not at all sure it’s of interest to our Heavenly Father – He who sees all. Aren’t we all above these disputations? It’s a corporate, cold, theological issue, a side track, a deviation spawned in the world and quite frankly, you’re welcome to it; if, that is, you will waste time on it.

    Roger NZ posted on an earlier thread a comment about three different mindsets, the Barbarian, the Greek and the Hebrew. He was entirely correct in his post, though some more able Gentile minds than mine disagreed. Of course.

    So many western Christians adhere to the Greek mindset, the corporate church teaching … get knowledge, get more knowledge; he’s got a Masters in theology so he must be a good pastor. (?) It’s all about knowledge, about study of the Bible and Christian writings. Acquisition, possession of knowledge, power over people. Call me reverend because … a tassel on my tallith is longer than the others according to Moses … Didn’t Jesus speak against such characters as these?

    I am not mocking, just observing what is.

    I was raised a Gentile outside my family home; church, choir, church based English public school; my future was assured, until, through Christ Jesus, I broke the mold.

    Inside my family home we were, and still are, Jews. We have a Hebrew mindset, we live it … we don’t understand this God, but we will love, obey and worship Him anyway. Roger, quite correct and very perceptive if I may say so.

    The church’s underlying problem is what to do with Jesus the Jew, and what to do with Jews? We don’t fit in. We’re an uncomfortable inconvenience to the sedate, comfortable and cosy Western church. No church I’ve known in the UK has a clue. Rejection is the answer, usually citing proof texts out of context. Oh, how silly!

    When the church, or Church, discovers through prayer, through obedience, how to deal with a Jewish Jesus, and his brethren the Jews, it will prosper. The number of Messianic Jews is growing by the hour, our God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh: alleluia, that includes Jews! Church – better find out how things should have been done this last two thousand years! Come on, wake up!

    Christian Zionism: I’ve been truly blessed to have spent almost thirty years in Christian Zionism, part and full time. Extracting Jewish people from Kiev, Leningrad and even Chernobyl (that was a Jewish quarter, by the way), in a concerted response to Isaiah 43. And it’s still going on.

    Those who speak against Zionism, and in particular Christian Zionism, well, I would recommend days on one’s face on the floor in prayer and supplication. You’ve got it wrong. This is a move of the Holy Spirit, no less. Be sorry you missed it, and spoke against it. Be sorry indeed.

    This will over run a screen view. I do not apologise.

  272. Just to add some scripture of what happened –

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you (Israel) and given to a nation (Gentiles) bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Words in brackets are mine


  273. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    How wonderful to lift up the Lord in our midst.

    The `good news,`

    `It was the Father`s good pleasure ..thr` Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself having made peace through the blood of His cross; thr` Him …whether things on earth or things in heaven.`
    We all heartily agree.

    And that God has
    `made known to us the mystery of His will ….summing up of all things in the heavens & things upon the earth, in Him.`
    (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

    God also tells us the process that Christ
    `must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.`
    `when He has abloshed all rule & all authority.`
    (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

    So God has shown us that Christ is…
    Preeminent & far above all. (Col. 1: 18 & Eph. 1: 21)

    Christ will be King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3 & 4)
    Christ will be King of the kings of the earth. (Rev. 1: 5)
    Christ is King of the Jews. (Judah) (Matt. 2: 2)
    Christ is King of Israel. (John 1: 47 – 49)
    Christ is King of Heaven. (Dan. 4: 37, 34)
    Christ is King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)
    Christ is King of Righteousness & Peace. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)
    Christ is King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7 – 8)
    Christ is King of Kings. (Rev. 19: 12, 16)

    Such a range of regality was never before given to any monarch, for every realm of importance is included – racial, national, spiritual, historical, celestial & supernal etc.

    Upon this king of kings devolves the stupendous task of administrating the power which governs the innumerable starry constellations, the prodigious hierachies of angels, & the millions of perfected saints, every feature of whose immortal lives He caters for & controls in absolute harmony.

    The retinue of His celestial court is awe inspiring. If ever an occasion arises in the hereafter in which the redeemed hosts will need to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, to comprehend the dimensions of divine glory, it will be when the investiture of the King of Kings is unveiled before the greatest assemblage of admirers ever gathered.

    These hosts shall be summoned from the remotest bound of the entire universe to God, by means of that instant transit known to the omnipotent One.The millionfold praise from myriads of myriads shall be presented to the Premier of personalities, the sole President of principalities, & the one Prince of potentates.

    He is far above all. Marilyn.

  274. Richard Savage Apr 12th 2013

    Marilyn. Well said. Thank you.

  275. Jerry Sorrow Apr 12th 2013

    Brother Andrew ask yourself the question “what did Jesus really say in John 15:1 when He said “I AM the True Vine?”

    In the O.C. Israel was the vine which never brought forth good fruit (Is. 5:1-5 actually the whole chapter); read Is. 5 in light of the words of Christ in Matt. 21:33-44; especially the part where Jesus tells the nation; “The Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people/nation bearing the fruit of it.” When Is. failed to obey God’s word (Ex. 19:1-7) eventually just as Jesus spoke to them the Kingdom was taken from them and Peter describes for us in 1 Pet. 2:9-10 just who that nation is; Paul also helps us understand this concept in Gal. 6:15-16; “neither circumcision nor un-circumcision but a new creation.”

    Old Covenant Israel was a type of the new Covenant Israel that is Christ and all Jew or Gentile who are attached to Him.

    When you consider the words of Christ in John 15:1 was He say “I Am the True Israel?” Check out Hosea 11:1; “And out of Egypt I have called My Son.” Also see Ps. 80:8-9; in light of Eph. 4:10, “He ascended in order to fill all things.” See Jer. 2:21 speaking of the O.C. vine; Also one more to check out and there are probably many more but this in N.T. concerning Christ Matt. 2:14-15, “Out of Egypt I have called My Son.”

  276. Marilyn Crow Apr 12th 2013

    P.S. Thanks Paul, `oh amazing truth to ponder.` Marilyn.

  277. Richard Savage,

    Very blessed by your testimony and what you shared here.


  278. Marilyn Crow,

    That was a real blessing as well, very well spoken.


  279. @Ken….even a third would still be a VERY large number of converts, not just a remnant….in the multiplied millions. @ Richard Savage….I did not understand the Israel thing even though my sister was married to a Messianic Jew and they emigrated to Israel eight years ago…it really is a revelation, that people need to see the vital importance of the Jews to God’s plan throughout time and our debt to them, and that is not just for Nobel prizes! Paul said he would rather perish so his brethren the Jews could come….such should be our hearts towards the Jews and Israel. God has always had His hand and His eye on His people, both Jew and Gentile. I long to see the day, when the dreams of God come true in His people!

  280. Val, i just go by what scripture says, i know nothing else


  281. antipas4yahshua Apr 12th 2013

    @Jerry you mentioned “In the O.C. Israel was the vine which never brought forth good fruit ”

    What is your take on how the Gentiles have done with the incredible knowledge, superior covenant, and history of the Jews ???

    Btw, we owe the Jews a debt of gratitude for keeping the scriptures “intact” and bring forth Messiah.


  282. Nite, everyone and God bless


  283. watchful Apr 13th 2013

    Richard I’m very touched by your heartfelt post and grieved to the core to think that my comment has hurt you like this…..I very much relate to what you said about loving and worshiping God without understanding Him. Jesus has taken down the wall of separation and enmity, in Him we are all one, in spirit there is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is only the mind of Christ, one new man/creation. It is to this gospel that both Jew and gentile come to be saved. That is all I meant, is it possible that you are extrapolating things from that which I didn’t intend..?

    I agree that the Hebrew mindset according to the flesh is much better able to comprehend and embrace the things of God than the Greek, it was for this reason He had raised you up. And yet we all need to have our minds renewed, do we not…to have the mind of Christ..? spirit, not according to our flesh..?

    It is terrible what you have experienced, and not having a sense of belonging where of all places you have a right to belong………….it seems to speak also to our experience as believers and being strangers in this world. There is a raw wound of rejection dear brother, and I am very very sorry for it, and any part I have played in it, and hope you will forgive me, forgive my clumsiness, and I pray very much for the Lord to heal and comfort you and pour in the oil and wine, dear Jesus.

  284. Davo; While you are marking your calendar, include April 3rd through the 4th of October 2015…..for the swooping up to be with the Lord. More than likely May 24th (Pentecost) as it is 45 days from April 10th, the last day of Unleavened Bread. Blessed are they who come to the 1,335th day….45 days from when the dragon claims godhead and demands worship…..if that abomination occurs around Passover of April 3, 2015. March 21, 2015 begins the 68th Sacred Year from November 1947. If my theory is correct, the Vials will be over towards the Last Great Day, October 12, 2017…..which also ends the 70th Sacred Year from November 1947. 😉

    Gotta run…..hubby just killed a feral hog chasing the cows!

  285. Jerry Sorrow Apr 13th 2013

    antipas4yahshua; what is your take on Jesus ‘statement I AM the True Vine. I did not put down Israel I’m showing you and pointing out what Scripture says. Jew or Gentile to be a part of God’s Kingdom you must be born again.

  286. Antypas4; Neither the prodigal son (Jews) or the adopted son (Christians) have done a good job in remaining loyal to God. Both turned and put alot of man’s will into the mix. Both did bad, and both are to be commended for what they did do. Praise Abraham for being willing to sacrifice his only son! Praise the men of Christian faith who were willing to die for their faith! Only when all are of the same mind and body of Christ will there be perfection! Even when Christ, Himself is with us during the Millinnium Kingdom, many men will turn towards themselves when the dragon is unbound. The natural man, as a group, is not capable of governing themselves…..not until they are like Him.

  287. Andrew Apr 13th 2013

    Kitty – please do not come on here posting “dates” for the Rapture, etc.

    Does nobody every learn – even from recent history – how foolish this is? – Sorry to be so blunt.

    God bless you!


  288. margaret Apr 13th 2013

    Imagine how Yeshuah ( Greek translation ‘Jesus’) must have FELT when His own nation Israel ( called ‘Palestine’ by Rome) rejected Him. It was the teachers of the law that hated Him and were consumed with jealousy over His works and his lack of respectability and scholarship, who rejected Him because He didnt fit their image of a Messiah: whereas people who were considered outside the Law like Mary Magdalene accepted Him and moved on into revelation of Him as Messiah leaving sin behind. Isnt there an element of this when we the Gentile church start to interpret the Word of God and defend our right to be right.It all goes back to our Greco Roman god roots in stoicism aristotelism, Apollo, Diana etc .I can get into too much self righteous argumentation about this issue anyway because I am a teacher of the Word ( but none knows my name and I was educated Irish Catholic therefore I would be excommunicated If I dared to call myself a teacher and yet a woman! O no!!) Anyway I just love Yessuah and I appreciate some of the inherited cultural values of the Jews and I love their style of music ! I also love the style of music of my people from Ireland ( I am 5th gen Australian through one Irish ancestor), but I am SO SO thankful for the Jews and the truth of salvation from my druidic and Irish Catholic celibate ” church fathers” who have as I said excommunicated me in a sense and left my family in tatters until such time as they also accept this wonderful Jewish Jesus. Let us weep and cry out for the salvation of His people and my people and your people ( readers ) and Hope Hope Hope they will ALL be saved because they are also His kin. He died for all but many will be saved not all and only He knows the end , because we are nothiing but dust without Him….the spirit and the Bride say ‘Come’!!!!

  289. Roger (NZ) Apr 13th 2013

    Just been reading through all the sharing and input overnight and this a.m. NZ time – its taken a while – a lot to read, thankyou all 🙂

    Since being filled with the Holy Spirit, born-again, Lord Jesus has filled my heart with love (His love) for all people, saved or unsaved.

    As I grow in Him, and mature both spiritually and in years 🙂 I have found that this love has increased toward Israel and the Hebrew people – (please excuse when I use wrong terminology..?.) – even more than my love for those of other nations – I cannot explain this other than this is indeed a work of the Holy Spirit, as Richard Savage shared.

    As I am led to read through scripture, ask for insight from the Holy Spirit, and discuss these things – my conviction continues to increase that Almighty God’s plans and purposes for the Hebrew people is as yet unfulfilled, that the two houses of Israel and Judah will once again be united, that the regathering to the ‘promised land’ we have seen through the 1900’s, will continue to completion – only He knows the timing.

    I can only look at the miracles that have occurred in the modern state of Israel, and give thanks to Almighty God, that even though the people turned away from His covenant to Abraham, God will not break any of His covenant’s – and yes, there are more than two.

    Thanks again to all, in Christ Jesus our risen Lord,

  290. Jerry; I know what the churches commonly accept as “born again”, with their various signs as to what qualifies one’s born again experience. But consider, that if we are born again via the Holy Spirit, that “born again” as Jesus meant it, might well be the ability that the Holy Spirit has to transform us, or resurrect us into our eternal birth existence??? Another birth into our new bodies that are like Christ’s. We all who have the Holy Spirit within us now, because of Jesus Christ, may well be undergoing the birthing process….but not quite yet there? When we are born into our clay bodies, we come through the waters of the womb, and as most of our body is water…we are born of water. To be born again through the Spirit, from above, may well be still ahead of us….those who endure to the end. I am not saying this is so….but it is what I have been led to wonder about. The Holy Spirit who we got from Jesus Christ may well have initiated the newly developing being within us, just as a fertilized egg developes into the child that is eventually born of woman. Just something I wonder about. None of us have achieved perfection, but we have that Hope through Jesus Christ.

  291. Amen! to all you say, Roger NZ

  292. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Thank you Richard Savage, Gary B. & Watchful, (on last post)
    So good to hear us encouraging each other. Does my heart good.
    Alot of my thoughts come from bible college notes & writings I`ve gleaned from teachers of old. Marilyn.

  293. Sorry, Andrew, I saw the other and followed suit. Won’t do it anymore.

  294. margaret Apr 13th 2013

    I just read what you wrote Richard…it is the move of the spirit to have me weep .Thank you.I feel it!!!!

  295. Richard, RE: your earlier comment “…corporate, cold, theological issue, a side track, a deviation spawned in the world…

    – an interesting estimation! The word ‘deviation’ especially. Sometimes this word is used to describe ‘an imitation of the divine’. Something intended to divert away from the genuine. Thanks for a fine cutting descriptor!

  296. The reason for Israel’s prominence today is Biblical rather than political. The Bible says that God chose a special people to be His witness to the world:

    ‘You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen” … And what nation on the earth is like Your people Israel, whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people and to make a name for Himself, and to do a great thing for You and awesome things for Your land …’ (Isa 43.10 and 2 Sam 7.23).

    However the Biblical and prophetic understanding re the nation of Israel, the Jewish people and its relation to the Gentile church is not fully understood in Christian circles because it is rarely taught there in depth. Mostly people have to attend separate meetings to hear from great teachers such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum (New York), Jacob Prasch (UK) , David Jeremiah (USA), Charles Price (Toronto), Chuck Swindoll, Chuck Missler, the late Dave Hunt (USA) and many more

    The apostle Paul said in Romans 1:16
    ” For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone, who believes, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
    What did he mean exactly?
    First he says everyone, then, he says to the Jews first! So in ‘What Ways are the Jews first?
    1. They are the historic chosen people of God.
    2. They are the guardians of God’s special revelation, the Old Testament Scriptures.
    3. The Messiah and Saviour, Jesus, comes to the world as a Jew
    to Jews.
    4. Salvation is from the Jews, since everyone who is saved is
    saved by being connected to the covenant with Abraham by
    5. The Jews are to be evangelized first when the gospel
    penetrates a new region.
    6. The Jews will enter first into final judgment and final blessing.

    1.The Jews do not have priority in righteousness or merit
    2.The Jews do not have priority in how they are saved
    3.The Jews do not have priority in participation in God’s covenant blessings

    Why did Paul mention the priority/firstness of the Jews?

    Under Romans 11:17-32, Paul perhaps wants to humble both Jew and Greek making them deeply aware that they depend entirely on mercy, not on themselves or their tradition or ethnic connections. To the Gentiles he says, in essence, salvation is of the Jews. You are not being saved by your Greek culture – or any other culture. You are being saved by a salvation that comes through the hated Semitic people called the Jews. “You do not support the root [of the Abrahamic covenant], the root supports you.” So do not boast over the branches (Romans 11:18). Gentiles are saved by becoming, as it were, spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29). This should humble us and strip us of any arrogance and boasting in any presumed ethnic superiority. It also should vanquish anti-Semitism and fill us with zeal for evangelism to Jews.
    The model that Paul set for evangelising, to the Jew first, then the Gentiles, should also be the church’s model. Churches that do this, have been recorded as coming under much spiritual and material blessing.

  297. Andrew Apr 13th 2013

    If we are led to evangelize Jews – awesome.

    If we are led to evangelize gentiles – awesome.

    God will lead us to the particular “harvest” that is ours.

    Bless you!


  298. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Absolutely, Andrew. Led by the Holy Spirit in ALL things.

    I have gleaned a lot from all these posts….and will take it all to prayer for revelation and to the scripture for research.

    Good discussion.

  299. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    AM. Some good thoughts. However your point 4 needs a bit more clarification I believe. You said,

    `4. Salvation is from the Jews since everyone who is saved is saved by being connected to the covenant with Abraham by faith.`

    Have you thought on this….
    `Salvation belongs to the Lord;..` (Ps. 3: 8)

    & what of these people…
    `By faith Abel….. by faith Enoch…. by faith Noah…..
    all before Abraham. (Heb. 11: 4,5,7)

    Good discussion. Marilyn.

  300. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Kitty, my heart goes out to you.

    You generally write some good things, except when you get on to dates etc. I have a long time friend who has recently believed the same. She`s building bunkers, storing massive amounts of food, going to such meetings, & talking for hours on the phone about these things. She is fearful & driven. Her family miss her but she is blind to what she`s doing.

    I have talked to her & said we`ll walk this year together & when these things, events don`t happen I pray she`ll see reality.

    So I have a heart for you also, Kitty & will say, I`ll walk this year with you & pray for you that when these things don`t happen, you`ll awaken.

    The Body of Christ is told that we will `see the day (of God`s wrath) drawing near.` (Heb. 10: 25) We all (here) see it ahead but it is not just yet Kitty. The day will not overtake us, (1 Thess. 5:4).

    Be patient, continue to grow in the Lord & keep building relationships with others & continue to help them in their daily lives, which I`m sure you are doing.

    Let`s walk together in Him………Marilyn.

  301. Andrew Apr 13th 2013

    Well said, Marilyn.

    People get all broken up when their “dates” come and go.

    But I pray Kitty will realize this error well before.

    Bless you!


  302. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Thank you Andrew. I appreciate your encouragement & correction when needed. In His service, Marilyn.

  303. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    Unfortunately, we live in a world where people in power, past and present, have set themselves above the law. They believe themselves to be wiser. It’s epidemic. Our Constitution is being toyed with, reinterpreted and done away with. It’s extremely frustrating and upsetting–especially for our children and any hope we have for their future. I imagine God feels the same way about His holy law–His instructions for a holy life. The same instructions His son kept and taught. I ask you, do you think it’s a coincidence that we are getting to experience firsthand what happens when the law is not upheld, in this, the most blessed nation on the face of the earth?

    I praise God that He sent His Son who came as a humble servant that kept his Father’s commandments. This IS the definition of a good son. We are supposed to copy Him–He came as an example. This is NOT DONE TO BE SAVED, this is done BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. It’s out of love for Him and the Father.

    Again, I will post: Jerusalem Council–Acts 15:21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” This is the verse following what the Gentiles are to abstain from. This verse clearly has the Gentiles in the synagogues on the Sabbath learning the law of Moses. When you love someone–you want to learn every little thing about them.

    And Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore ALL THAT THEY TELL YOU, DO AND OBSERVE, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things, and do not do them.” Once again, these are instructions from Jesus to the believers. In the synagogues there was a seat–called the chair of Moses–where the Torah would be read on a weekly basis. Jesus is telling the believers to do everything that the Pharisees teach with respect to the teachings of Moses but not to follow what the Pharisees do.

    The word Torah means “instructions”. The word sin means “to miss the mark” like a bow and arrow. The word repent means to turn and walk in the commandments of God. John the Baptist said “repent” (return to the commandments of God) and Jesus said, “you are forgiven, go and sin no more”.


  304. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Roberta, please tell me what verses you are referring to when you say the “Gentiles were in the synagogue”

    It is my understanding that Gentiles were not allowed in the synagogues because they were considered “unclean”.

    Is this a misunderstanding?

  305. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013


    You obviously are concerned with the way the world is going & rightly so. However the nations are in darkness, the world system is overseen by the `Prince of the Power of the air,` & it is vain to expect anything else from the world. Yes we (Christians) are called to show otherwise but if we expect the world system to change we will be continually frustrated. Trust God, He will judge it.

    Also the believers you are refering to were the children of Israel whom the Lord taught to not just obey the law outwardly as the Pharisees, but inwardly, their motives. Jesus said….`but I tell you…` & showed the heart motive. (Matt. 5: 22, 28, 34, etc)

    We as Christians look to the `law in Christ,` & He shows us by His Holy Spirit our motives.

    Again, John the baptist was a prophet for Israel, for when the Apostle Paul was in Corinth those he mentored & taught, Aquila & Pricilla took Apollos aside & taught him the difference between the Baptism of John & the Baptism of Jesus, which is a greater (further) revelation. (Acts 18: 2,3, 24 – 28 19: 1 – 6)

    Hope this helps. Marilyn.

  306. Andrew I was a little surprised at you reply to Stewart about who is at the center of Gods attention at the moment. Did he say the Jews were? I didn’t see that in his post.
    I think his post was excellent & worth giving much thought to. I think sometimes we are/i am, too quick to reply according to what we/I have always thought & don’t give enough thought to something not quite the same.
    For arguments sake, isn’t it the gospel at the centre directed at everyone who listens called to the church of Christ? The gospel was preached to them as well as us & it was the church in the wilderness. (You are aware of the scriptures) Just maybe…..there is something unwise in this dispensational stuff one of the posts mentions.
    Folks please don’t say “i only do & believe what the bible says”. We all think we do. It just sounds so self righteous.
    Be Blessed

  307. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    Lightening Storm–the verse is Acts 15:19-21 is the ruling from the Jerusalem Council. James first lays out the four things the Gentiles are to abstain from and the next verse says that they (the Gentiles) would be in the synagogues every Sabbath learning the law of Moses because portions of the Torah (the first 5 books) were read every week in a cycle throughout the course of the year. Every year you would study the Torah

    The Matthew 23 verse has Jesus instructing believers–these were Jewish believers. However, Jesus said this in Matthew and then in Acts, his brother James is confirming those words for the Gentiles that we would be learning the law of Moses in the synagogues.


  308. Comments from a Jew on gentiles learning in the synagogues would be interesting

  309. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    Marilyn, If I know in my heart that my husband loves steak but I never actually make it for him, what good is the knowing. And worse than that, if I know he loves steak and I serve him up a hotdog–shame on me!!!. God told us all the the things that He loves and despises in the Old Testament. And as I said, Jesus was a good son. He gave His Father what he wanted–outwardly and inwardly–there was absolutely no question that He lived a perfect Torah observant life.

    I used the example of this country and its Constitution because it parallels what is really going on. I know satan is in control–satan’s SOLE purpose from the garden onward is to get people to disregard God’s laws (satan is having a field day)–there’s nothing new under the sun. He is anti-Christ–against Jesus’ teachings.

    Do you believe that God would purposely trip up the Israelites? Do you think that when He gave the laws to them He didn’t mean what He said? In Deuteronomy God instructs the Israelites through Moses how they could tell a true prophet from a false one–He told them that anyone that taught against the commandments of God was a false prophet. The Bible says that God never changes–that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. That being the case, you can see where this is going. God the Father said to keep the commandments and Jesus said to keep the commandments over and over and over again–and that surely is good enough for me. ANYONE who says other than that is a false prophet.

    Life is very short and there’s no time to waste–can you honestly imagine dying and going to heaven and then the Father and the Son rebuke you for walking the way His son walked–LUDICROUS. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are in complete unity.
    If Jesus is the head, and we are the body, then we better follow His lead and walk after Him in the manner that He walked.


  310. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Lightning Storm

    I thought the same as you about the Gentiles in the synagogue Then my husband Trevor came home & he thought of the scripture in Acts 21: 28.
    `…& besides he (Paul) has even brought Greeks into the temple & has defiled this holy place.`

    I then looked up about the synagogue & apparently new courtyards for women & Gentiles were introduced into Herod`s Temple but there is no mention of them in Solomon`s Temple.

    The Old Testament does not mention the synagogue but it seems this institution grew out of teaching sessions where priest & teachers gathered people together locally to give additional teaching.

    Interesting, ay. Marilyn.

  311. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Yes Roberta I agree we need to follow His lead & walk after Him.

  312. Stewart Lieberman, how did the Lord Jesus “fulfill” the Old covenant. When it is “fulfilled” does it disappear, become irrelevant?
    He never broke it in the first place, we did due to sin, now he took our sin upon Himself on our behalf, what happens next? Is it cosigned to the dirt bin? or is still in force. If it’s still in force then we still need to keep our end of it, NOT TO BE SAVED before anyone gets a hot flush & burns fingers on the keyboard.
    As I see it the only difference is that He helps us keep it by His grace working in us. Same covenant made new by His Spirit bringing life into us!!

  313. Stewart & Roberta I like what you both say.
    My understanding is:
    A covenant is between two people, in this case God & Israel & the gentile church was added in the new covenant which includes the Jews with the old one.
    The Lord Jesus fulfilled the judicial requirement of our end of the covenant as we were unable to do so. the fulfilment negated the consequence of eternal judgement….death, for our breaking the covenant or sin. The covenant is still in force as ALL the others God made with whosoever are. NONE are redundant, ALL have the same meaning as when they were given except eternal punishment for sin…death.
    If there’s a covenant then I must keep my end of the bargain or else the covenant is meaningless for this life.
    Why would God make eternal covenants if He knew we couldn’t keep them then just discard them???
    They are surely covenants to live by, to guide my life etc etc.
    The church seems to think that the Lord Jesus did everything now I go my merry way & do as I please wheen I please.
    We need to read the new covenant. It says “& I will cause you to walk in them” walk in what? the law of course, the old C brought into the new.
    As I said previously, every time I tell someone what to do or not to do for the bible, I am giving the law, not a suggestion & I will do well to take heed to it….NOT FOR SALVATION before anyone gets a wheel spin 🙂

  314. Nancy J Apr 13th 2013

    As a believer in Yeshua (Jesus’s Hebrew Name), I have been grafted into Israel. The fact is, as westerners, we attempt to read an eastern written Book with a western mindset; Not recognizing culture, nor understanding His ways. Most Christians don’t read the OT for the reason of it being “old”… yet, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are so visible, and prophecy recorded for us to see the fulfilment of. The Father has written His law on my heart….there is no legalism there. There are those things He has put within me to follow. His “Instructions”, if you will. More of a “want to” rather than “have to”. Makes all the difference. There will come a time when He will open the eyes of the Jews so they may see Yeshua (which means “God’s Salvation) as Messiah. Until that time, don’t be boasting about how the church may or may not fit into the Plan of the God Who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is well able to break off (or cause to be stunted in growth) the branches that deny the sustenance from the root.

  315. Nancy J, i will kindly disagree with you that the Church is grafted into Israel.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and “with them” partakest of the root (Jesus) and fatness of the olive tree;

    wert graffed in “among them, and with them”

    “among them (Israel) and with them (Israel)”

    The Church is now grafted into Jesus. Israel will be grafted in later at the end of the 7 year tribulation (Zec 12:10) being one of the many scriptures that tell us this.


  316. @ Ian
    Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, “the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after” cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    Please let me paraphrase this –

    “the law, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER” The PROMISE to Abraham –

    Which means the “Law” which was given 430 after the PROMISE to Abraham “cannot disanul” this previous PROMISE to Abraham.

    3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    So the inheritance is not of the “Law” but by promise.

    God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    It (the law) was added because of transgressions

    “till the seed should come”

    Ian you said
    We need to read the new covenant. It says “& I will cause you to walk in them” walk in what? the law of course, the old C brought into the new.

    Ian, i have to disagree with that, that the old was brought into the new

    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in “of a better hope” did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    but the bringing in “of a better hope”

    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of “a better covenant” which was established upon “better promises”

    he is the mediator of “a better covenant”

    which was established upon “better promises”

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, “that he may establish the second”

    He “TAKETH AWAY the first”

    That “He may establish the second”

    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus “the mediator of the new covenant” and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

    And to Jesus “the mediator of the new covenant”

    It is a BRAND NEW covenant (The PROMISE to Abraham) and no “old” involved in it.

    Gen 12:3 “b” and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE. (KJV)

    Blessings Bro

  317. ~..†..~

    1 Peter 2

    1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

    2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


  318. Ken were hardly in disagreement. What you say is correct. Look at the NC. It is what I said. “i’ll write them on your heart & cause you to walk in them”. Off the stone onto the heart. Yes it’s a new covenant, but it’s the same law He’s going to write on our hearts, plus all the other do’s & don’ts in the NT.
    bringing in “of a better hope” did; by the which we draw nigh unto God & hope in eternity in His presence
    Better promises. New life in Christ & all the promises He gives for this life.
    Better covenant. He provides the ability/ grace to keep covenant with Him.
    He takes away the first. He had to. It was mediated by Moses on stone. It couldn’t help because the mediator couldn’t help us fulfill it’s demands.
    the new one is the same, but the mediator is different, although it is the same laws. It’s the mediator who lives in us who makes the difference. He mediates it from my born again spirit in which He resides, into my soul (mind will & emotions) influencing my body & actions.
    I agree, the law came yonks after the promise. That’s why I kept saying the law is a schoolmaster. It won’t save a soul. It’s meant for us the same as the OC law was meant for Israel. It didn’t & was never meant to save them either. See what rebuke the Lord Jesus said to the pharisees. They, Jews, were His by promise. the law was for them to live this life by, not die by. Were also to live by the law in the power of the Spirit or by grace if you will. We now call that “walking in the Spirit”, different words for the same thing. Else why would He write it on our hearts? He’s not asking us to do two things here. 1. Causing us to do the laws written on our hearts & 2. Walk in the Spirit!!
    Better covenant because of the better mediator etc mentioned above.

    Maybe my bad wording got in the way saying the old has been brought into the new. It’s the actual laws that are brought & enhanced eg “don’t even think it”, not the covenant. apologies.
    Doing away with the laws has had catastrophic results in the church. Thats the source of this hyper grace nonsense.
    Few will dispute the need for obedience to God. Obedience to what? The laws of course, NT & OT are full of them. All we do say & preach is to judged by His Word & it’s all instructions on what & how, not suggestions.
    To Him be thanks who helps us to obedience to Him from the heart. Obedience to Him is also another way of saying “walking in the Spirit”. He directs us by His Word, were obedient & His Spirit helps us……that Gods grace/Spirit working in us.
    I speak not of getting saved…..repent & believe…thru the cross/blood
    Be Blessed

  319. Ian, blessings to you also, it appears we are on the same page 🙂

  320. I believe the below verse also supports my theory that Israel is the prodigal son, who when things get really bad in these end times, orchestrated by God, will return home by recognizing and accepting Jesus Christ, their Messiah.

    Exodus 4:22 (God telling Moses what to say) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

  321. Interesting is what Exodus 4:22 states. Israel is God’s son, His firstborn! Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten son. Jesus is from the same DNA seed. Quite a close PHYSICAL relationship there!

    Israel, the first born son, straight from Adam, through Noah. The firstborn, which would lead one to understand that there was a reason God didn’t use the word “only” instead of “first”.

    In Genesis, the 2nd chapter makes it clear that God took the man Adam that He had previous created in Genesis Chapter one, and placed him in the Garden of Eden. Adam is the one that the Jews are from. I know that many scholars consider the second chapter of Genesis to be a rehash of the first in more detail, but the order of presentation is different, which leads me to believe that Adam was, as stated, separated out and put in Eden, and that when God created man, He created other races also, that are not descended from Adam. Second born, third born, etc. (Theory).


    If all races are descended from Adam (which I doubt, as the Asian races seem to have “Pan” as their creator if you look into their creation theories) than, is the SECOND born the SPIRITUAL Church descended from Christ? Which, if this were true, would also support the “Prodigal Son”, Israel returning home to His Father’s house due to the circumstances that he finds he is living in, eating SLOP from the pig trough. That “slop” could well be the false doctrine that the returning fallen angels will set up which points to them, or their leader, the dragon, as being the creator of mankind. Something which the history channels and other sources are hard at work now trying to indoctrinate into the blank minds that are not filled with the Holy Spirit.


  322. I appreciate your advise and encouragement, Andrew. I understand where you are coming from.

    But, I am not standing on the dates that come up from the template of the timeline that I believe God gave us in His Word….it totally won’t shake me up when they pass, because they are not secure dates, because the problem is, and I admit it….we cannot know for sure when the call went forth to reestablish Israel. My futrure is already taken care of, I am in God’s hands. But many are not.

    Why on earth would God take the time to give us exact to the detail the number of days for this and that in the end times? God always has a reason, and I will not ignore one thing that He says, or dismiss one thing as irrelevant. Within the template that I got from Daniel conscerning the 70 sevens, all the other day prophesies perfectly fit. It is the starting date that God smudged….”when the call goes forth”. Why? Perhaps to grow fatih in His Church. But the Church will be gone soon.

    When certain things are known that God has said would happen, that template that He gave us will line up. And, than it will be very useful for God’s purposes for the end time people who have to go through it. Perhaps the Church will not be here according to this theory or that….but the people going through these times, when they see that God laid out the exact schedule….to the day…..thousands of years ago, I guarantee it will catch their attention….and many will wise up and see instead of being blind, and perhaps that is the proof they need to know that God is real. Many athiests are looking for proof. I cannot but think that God has given them this proof, in exact detail as to how many days this or that will last. God has revealed the dragon’s plan.

    My heart bleeds for those who are blinded by the worm eaten science of man. I believe in my heart that the proof the athiest seek is that timeline template that was given to Daniel, and other prophets of God in the Bible…that concern endtime events. It was not given for the Church, we are taken care of. It was given for those who will have to experience the Evil one who comes, the great deceiver.

    It is all about the template pattern, which contains the exact days for certain things to occur within a pattern of 2,300 days, within the 70 sevens that latter day Israel has been given. God was speaking to a Jew, who would have understood what “sevens” meant, as they are required by their law to keep the Holy days appointed by God within the 7 month span of months within each year.

    I care about those who miss the boat of transformation that occurs in a twinkling for the Church….and I think that God does also.

    In fact, in the template, it is one of the time markers, amongst many.

    But….no more speculated dates from me on this list…I promise.

  323. Lenny Perata Apr 13th 2013

    I agree with Marc Wildman. Most of the comments just ripped what Paul taught in Romans. The law wasnt done away with As Christ taught but neither are we saved by the Law only through Grace and that throgh Faith in Jesus our Messiah. Remember a text without a contex is a pre-text and many of the conclusions here are niceties or chritianease’ but out of context. Talking about creating false doctrine. When Jesus returns on matter what anyone thinks Paul said He wold have His ONE NEW MAN. Deal with that one.

  324. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013

    You are SO right Strom! Bravo to you!! The Church has got to stop putting Israel up on some kind of sanctimonius pedestal!!

  325. Marilyn; I thank you and appreciate your words. I am not fearful at all for myself. I think in the above post I pretty much explained why I am interested in what I believe is a template put in the Word by God for the end time people….not the Church. That template within God’s Word, may be the very thing (when enough of the sign posts have occurred) which will keep many from being deceived by the false one…..those who wait for proof….instead of faith.

    Any preparations I do based on what God said is to happen is not for myself, but for those who may need it. Kinda like God using others to provide for all those that He loves. I personally would have liked God to restore the earth long, long ago, even if I had no part in it, because I cannot stand the suffering i see happening in His world. But I understand that He knows what He is doing, and His plan will be for all, and is the best one….and eventually all tears will be erased.

  326. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013
  327. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013

    Aome thoughts on Zionism and repalcement theology:

  328. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013
  329. Kitty, you said.
    and that when God created man, He created other races also, that are not descended from Adam. Second born, third born, etc. (Theory).

    Kitty, that could not be further from the truth. We are ALL decendents of Adam through Noah. Read all of Gen chapt 5

    Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


    If all races are descended from Adam (which I doubt, as the Asian races seem to have “Pan” as their creator if you look into their creation theories)

    Gen 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

    10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

    10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

    10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

    10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

    “every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations”

    We are not told one thing about Noah’s wife or his sons wives.

    They MAY have been black, white, red or yellow etc etc.

    Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

    Scholars say –

    Cush was black

    Mizraim was white/yellowish

    Phut was black

    Cannan was white


  330. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013

    Christians should rethink about blindly supp Israel!

  331. It does make sense, Brother Strom. For sometime now, we have been considering this issue as well. We believe the heart of the misunderstanding and controversy of God having another purpose for the Jew and National Israel outside of the New Covenant in Jesus blood is that of the “eternal covenant God made with the Jew in the flesh”. It is sad to say that most of the church today has only a natural understanding of that eternal covenant in the flesh. The eternal covenant of circumcision God made with the Jew in the Old Testament does not negate nor is it separate of the eternal covenant of the circumcision of the heart in the new covenant believer, for our bodies (flesh) are the temple of the Holy Spirit; so the eternal covenant in the flesh is made in the flesh of the Christian believer (spiritually). This is why we believe Paul says of God shortly after saying “all Israel shall be saved” “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Rom. 11:33)

  332. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013
    Yes its true…Israel persecutes Christians!! WHY support them?

  333. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013

    Hmmm…no comments directed against me…I thought for sure Id have a bucket of brinstone thrown at me by now..LOL

  334. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    Genesis 15:6 Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

    Genesis 25:25-25 And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED ME AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS.

    First he believed and then he obeyed God and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes and His laws. It’s all about the order of things. You will say the law came after Abraham through Moses, but there were most definitely laws to follow prior to them being written down. For example: Noah brought two of each unclean animal on the ark and seven of the clean animals on the ark–Genesis 7:2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. After the flood when Noah came out of the ark, Genesis 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. All of this was prior to Moses writing down the law. First we believe, and then we obey.

    James 2:20-26 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of he works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    Also, the Israelites were saved by the blood of the lamb on the door FIRST, and then the instructions were given. As a matter of fact, before Moses even came down from the mountain with all of the commandments, the Israelites built the golden calf to worship the Lord. Genesis 32:8 “They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed to it and said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!” God was very angry with them and they were held accountable for attempting to worship Him in a manner NOT commanded by Him–which amounted to idolotry in His eyes.

    Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

    This doesn’t mean that there are only two commandments, it means if you summarize all of the commandments there are two categories–loving God and loving your neighbor. The law then goes on to give you instructions on how you do both–with a heart of love, as your motivating factor. Jesus was quoting Deut. 6:5

    Deut. 6:4-7 “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is One! And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words, which I am commanding you today, SHALL BE ON YOUR HEART; and you shall teach them diligently to your sons …….

    And then he quotes Lev. 19:18….You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself, I am the Lord.


  335. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    I want to add that obedience with a heart of love was required prior to the laws being written down, i.e., in the garden and going forward as I showed in my two examples above.

    Example; Communicating with my child–I can tell my son things over and over again. If he isn’t listening, or doesn’t understand, then I will write it down so there is no misunderstanding in order to make things clear.

  336. Kitty

    Could you please tell me what church you attend?


  337. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Doug P….LOL

  338. Jessica Apr 13th 2013

    And so the the Constantine deception and Catholic influenced lies continue to corrupt the people. Please people read the word the old and renewed covenant. No where does it say that any of the covenants in the Torah have been dissolved. Each time YHVH makes a covenant it is added to the previous. So now with the Teachings of Yahshua and his death we have the added hope that all people not just the 12 tribes will be the bride but also those those that choose to be Torah observant people will also have that chance as well. The Hebrew people were to be a nation of priests not just the Levites but the whole nation. They were to bring the Torah to the nations so all would know YHVH. They failed to do this by taking on the Pagan idols of the nations they came to. Yahshua came to full fill this. He brought the Torah to many nations through the apostles. Unfortunately the deceiver through Rome changed things and made all things Torah wrong and it snow balled from there.

  339. Doug P. Apr 13th 2013

    TY Lightning…at least one person is reading me!

  340. Doug B, re:Yes its true…Israel persecutes Christians!! WHY support them?

    Perhaps to clarifying? Not ALL Israel persecutes Christians, as not All Christians are blinding supporting of Israel to a fault. 🙂 God bless!

  341. Jessica, you said.
    Please people read the word the old and renewed covenant. No where does it say that any of the covenants in the Torah have been dissolved.

    Heb :13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, “that he may establish the second”

    He “TAKETH AWAY the first”

    That “He may establish the second”

    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus “the mediator of the new covenant” and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

    And to Jesus “the mediator of the new covenant”

    It is a BRAND NEW covenant NOT renewed like you said.


  342. That should be Heb 8:13

  343. The whole of history was pivotally changed on the day when Jesus gave up His Spirit on the cross…

    Everything in God’s Counsel had been building up to that very moment…

    The Covenant which God made with Abraham was looking forward to that very moment…

    Abraham was a believer in the Sacrifice of Jesus…

    The Covenant which God made with Abraham is still in force today…

    But now we – the children of Abraham by faith (whether we be Jews, Israelis or Gentiles) – have the Holy Spirit living within us…

    Jesus death fulfilled part of the blessing given to Abraham…

    Jesus is Abraham’s Seed through which the entire world – all those who believe in Jesus – were to be blessed…

    When God swears something and makes an Oath and a Covenant He cannot go back on His word…

    We are blessed with Abraham the believer…

    And guess what?

    All that land which God promised to Abraham and to his descendants forever we – those who believe in Jesus – will also inherit when we return with the Lord to reign with Him on this earth for a thousand years – yes, this present earth…


    Because scripture tells us so…

    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:29 NASB)

    The only thing which Abraham didn’t have which we now have is the abiding, indwelling of the Holy Spirit…

    Scripture also tells us (emphasis added),

    As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11 NASB)

    Abraham was a prophet – scripture tells us…

    And he rejoiced to see Jesus’ day – the scripture tells us…

    So he had the Spirit of Christ within him at times but not abiding…


    After Jesus breathed on his disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” after He was glorified – given His resurrected Body – the Holy Spirit now “abides with us forever”…

    See the change?

    Abraham and all of the “pre-death-of-Jesus” saints didn’t have the Holy Spirit abiding in them forever but all of the “post-glorification-of-Jesus” saints (after He rose from the dead and was given His glorified body) do…

    Abraham and all of the “pre-death-of-Jesus” saints were still given a new heart and a new spirit and a righteous soul by the Lord to enable them to repent and believe but didn’t have the Holy Spirit abiding with them forever…

    This is why we – as those who do – have “better promises”… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  344. I’ve lost track of how many people in this thread have made reference to “Israel, God’s chosen people.” What is meant by this? Does it mean all citizens of Israel? Somehow I get the impression that people mean Jews only, but did you know that there are roughly 1.6 million Arab citizens in Israel?


    I completely disagree that all ethnic Jews are God’s chosen people, as some have also claimed here, because Scripture teaches that only those who belong to Jesus are God’s chosen people (chosen to be a royal priesthood, to receive mercy, to be a light, etc. – e.g. I Peter 2:4-10).

    However, I’m even more baffled by the claim that the nation of Israel is God’s chosen people. It makes no sense Scripturally or politically.

  345. Amen, Andrew J, that is so well said, bless you Bro.

  346. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    AMEN…Andrew J Horton

  347. Bless you too Ken… 🙂

  348. When I re-read what I wrote above the Lord showed me something beautiful…

    The whole of history was pivotally changed on the day when Jesus gave up His Spirit on the cross…

    When Jesus gave up His Spirit on the cross…

    The Holy Spirit reminded me of this scripture…

    So powerful…

    Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24 NASB)

    Jesus literally did this – He was the Seed – and He died and He bore much fruit to God…

    Praise His Wonderful Name…

  349. Andrew J Horton, thankyou for some very good thoughts. For the song as well! Nothing But The Blood -of that Sacrificial Lamb! YES! We are truly a blessed people. A blessed cleansed people! It all unfolds before our eyes. The great unspeakable joy of knowing the Messiah has already come, dwells within, and bids all to come unto the wedding feast. May we continue in prayer for the chosen of Israel and all nations and tongues which shall forever sing His worthy praise. I can hardly wait in anticipation of that day! I have enjoyed these posts so much! I have always cherished this song, since he removed the blind eyes from me. May it be a blessing to you as well. God bless all.

    The Sacrifice Lamb – Joshua Aaron

  350. This is the blessing of Abraham in that looking ahead to the promised Savior Abraham was justified through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus, which sacrifice was “the gospel preached beforehand” to him. Again, the merits of the righteousness of Christ being credited to Abraham through faith brought about a spiritual birth or regeneration. Abraham was a born again man.

    The blessing of Abraham is none other than spiritual life, the result of imputed righteousness. Which blessing is contrasted in Gal 3:13-14 with the curse of the law that results in spiritual death and potentially eternal death.

  351. Praise the Lord Paul… 🙂

  352. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    If we don’t know our HISTORY, we are DOOMED to repeat it.

    I am SO GLAD that the Holy Spirit told me to ask Roberta the question about Gentiles entering the synagogues, because it stirred me to research the word SYNAGOGUE.

    In the links above, I think you will find that THE JUDAISM OF THE NT AND RESTORED AFTER THE DISPERSION IS A MANMADE RELIGION……IT IS NOT the same WORSHIP OF ELOHIM of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac.

    The word “JEW” in the OT referred ONLY to the tribe of Judah, BY BLOODLINE ONLY, until Esther.

    The biblical term “Israelites” (also the “Twelve Tribes” or “Children of Israel”) means both the direct descendants of the patriarch Jacob (Israel) as well as the historical populations of the united Kingdom of Israel.[3] For the post-exilic period, beginning in the 5th century BCE, the remnants of the Israelite tribes came to be referred to as Jews (tribes of Judah, Simeon, Benjamin and partially Levi), named for the kingdom of Judah. This change is explicit in the Book of Esther (4th century BCE).[4] On the other hand, Samaritans (tribes of Menasseh, Ephraim and partially Benjamin and Levi) became named for Samaria. It replaced the title Children of Israel.[5]

    Now let’s look at what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman. According to what we read above…this woman is an ISRAELITE.

    Jhn 4:3 KJV
    He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

    Jhn 4:4 KJV
    And he must needs go through Samaria.(Northern Kingdom called ISRAEL)

    Jhn 4:5 KJV
    Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

    Jhn 4:6 KJV
    Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with [his] journey, sat thus on the well: [and] it was about the sixth hour.

    Jhn 4:7 KJV
    There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

    Jhn 4:9 KJV
    Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

    Jhn 4:20 KJV
    Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

    Jhn 4:21 KJV
    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

    Jhn 4:22 KJV
    Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    Jhn 4:23 KJV
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    Jhn 4:24 KJV
    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    So we get back to my question:

    Why did the born again Gentiles go into the synagogues?

    Because they didn’t have bookstores and

    The Books of the OT could only be found in the synagogue…..which was NOT A PLACE OF WORSHIP BUT A PLACE OF TUTORING, like a school.
    Only the Rabbi’s of the time could teach the Books of the OT.

  353. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    These LINKS go with my post above…..too many links causes a problem…so split them up.


  354. Adam, to me the Jews are those who have the DNA that came from the 12 sons of Jacob. When I think of Jews, I think of DNA, the physical. Just because one lives in Israel does not make them “Israel”.

    I actually believe that this gathering that is occurring right now is man made….not the one that Jesus will be doing when He has finished treading out the Wrath.

    Just my opinion.

  355. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Jesus was referring to Himself as a Jew because He was of the bloodline of the Tribe of Judah and born in Judea.

    The woman was referring to Jesus as a Man from Judea who practices the religion of the day as taught by the Pharisees when she called Him…Jew.

    Because she was referring to the practice of worshiping ONLY in Jerusalem at the Temple…..which was not done by Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, or even David. They worshiped Elohim in many places. IN THE MOUNTAINS, IN THE WILDERNESS ETC. They worshiped Elohim WHEREVER HIS PRESENCE WAS…
    Remember in scripture we are told that HIS PRESENCE left the Temple!
    There’s absolutely no point in worshiping Elohim in a place where He isn’t even PRESENT!


    Which is what Jesus was referring to when He said these words:

    Jhn 4:23 KJV
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

  356. Andrew J 🙂

  357. GaryB; I attend daily, minute by mintue the Church that is united by the Holy Spirit. I read the Bible for instruction, and no man of earth is authority to me, because the Bible teaches that we are not to put our trust in man…..only Jesus….but I do listen to what others say and test it against the Word of God, and learn. I visit local churches if they are nondenominational. I am not very fond of dogma. I look forward to a community church that stores food and clothing, and offers rest and conversation and study and fellowship at any time of the day. I think that will be the model in the Mellinnium…hope so anyway.
    Ken1; There are diseases that are specific to Jews because their DNA is different than ours in some areas. I know for sure the Adamic line is that of Jesus Christ. I still have a hard time reconciling the order of presentation in Chapter 1 of Genesis and Chapter 2. My God is exact. In Chapter 1 He made the animals first. In Chapter 2 Adam was first and the animals were made for him. No man is going to give me their guesses as to why this is. I will let God explain it to me one day… it is not salvational. I also know that the fallen angels were breeding with mankind in the time of Noah and Enoch. One of the reasons for the flood, besides the knowledge that they imparted to man. I am aware that Enoch and others that were included in the Old Testament were taken up in chariots/space ships. It is very conceivable that satan interferred with the flood’s purpose and stashed some of his tares on the other side of the world. I also know that the world at that time was a vast place, and after the flood the Bible focuses on Noah and the Adamic line. I am also aware that the aliens could have also done some “saving” of their own with their own “ark/space ship/whatever, which is not written about in the Bible because the Bible is the Adamic history and what God wanted us to know. The dragon is always interfering with God’s plans. There is a reason he is called the prince of the air. I also am aware that the fallen angels could have come down in many places on earth after the flood, because there are pyramids and mounds all over the earth and under the sea. I am aware that there are many mysteries which are not salvational, and that will be uncovered in the end times…..none of which concern the Church, but will concern the deception that is coming. When Christ returns all mysteries will be known.

    My loyalties are entirely with the Adamic line and the Church.

  358. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Jhn 4:9 KJV
    Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

    Another question to ask is?

    If these “Jew” that the woman was referring to, then why the antagonism to the Samaritans/Israelites?
    ESPECIALLY, since both Kingdoms had been defeated and were living in captivity. You would think that compassion would be abounding between all 12 tribes.

    But religious zealots would definitely be antagonistic to the true worship of Elohim.

  359. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    oops should read

    “If these “Jews”, that the woman was referring to, were their actual blood brothers who worship Elohim together,
    then why the antagonism to the Samaritans/Israelites?

  360. Kitty

    Thank you for sharing this. Its a blessing when people do not get offended and bent out of shape when you ask them a simple question.

    Lord Bless,

  361. Lightening Storm; I have found that man is so very good at going way overboard with a teaching of God, or way underboard! Men of that day were no different than those of this day. I know that God wanted the Adamic line to remain pure so that Jesus could come through it. He didn’t want them interbreeding in marriage….or mixing with races that worshiped false gods.

    Except for when God told them to wipe out those specifically in the land that God gave them (because, I believe those in that land had bloodlines and worship that was leaning towards alien god interference again…Giants, etc.)….God did not teach hatred towards others….that was mans superiority again. We are to love our enemies and our neighbor….unless they are evil, and we are to hate evil. “Evil” to me means there is a mixture of the demonic within the evil person.

    So, even today….man totally compromises the word of God, or to the other extreme, uses it as bullets to demonstrate their superiority over another.

    Bless those in the middle who have no need of being superior, but follow the Word of God and trust in Jesus Christ to lead them towards all Truth, and are patient, not requiring it all at once.

  362. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013


  363. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    Lightening Storm–All those in the Bible that wanted to learn about the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob went to the synagogue to learn about Him. Just like today–the church is filled with people that are not born again–people that have heard of Jesus and they go to the church to learn about him. The term that was given to them were “righteous gentiles”–the gentiles that attached themselves to the God of Israel. The book of Ruth gives us a clearer picture of a gentile whose loyalty shifted to the God of Abraham–she said “Your God will be my God”. She then married Boaz as her Kinsman Redeemer (another picture of Messiah). They are in the geneology of Jesus–being the grandparents of King David. This has been going on for a long time. Don’t forget that when the Israelites left Egypt, a “mixed multitude” left with them. All the laws in the Torah are written to the Israelites, the aliens and sojourners among them. God said there would be one law for all people.

  364. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Yes, Roberta, I agree.

    But the Gentiles did not WORSHIP in the synagogue.

    No one worshipped in the synagogue… was meant for TEACHING.

    The Jews worshipped in the Temple.

    The Israelites worshipped in the MOUNTAINS.

  365. Marilyn Crow Apr 13th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    I appreciated your good thoughts on Christ, & Abraham & the promises, however I was taught that the `better promises` in Christ are –

    `my citizenship is in heaven.` (Phil. 3: 20)
    my hope is `laid up for you in heaven.` (Col. 1: 5)
    also my `inheritance … reserved in heaven.` (1 Peter 1: 4)

    & that the Body of Christ will rule & reign with Christ on His throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)
    Heaven is God`s throne & the earth is His footstool. (Is. 66: 1)

    What scriptures have you been taught as I haven`t heard any specific teaching on that.

    Appreciate looking into His `better promises.` Marilyn.

  366. Kitty, you said this
    and that when God created man, He created other races also, that are not descended from Adam. Second born, third born, etc. (Theory).


    If all races are descended from Adam (which I doubt, as the Asian races seem to have “Pan” as their creator if you look into their creation theories)

    To me, this is totally ridiculous (And Grave ERROR) and then there is those on this site, to say, AMEN kitty, i say, SHAME ON YOU.

    Andrew Strom, you need to address this ERROR

  367. Lightning Storm Apr 13th 2013

    Ken1…..I was addressing Kitty’s LAST POST

    Not everything kitty has said. Just like I amen a SINGLE POST OF ANYONE…..NOT THEIR WHOLE THEOLOGY AT ONCE.

    I thought that was a GENERAL KNOWLEDGE in these posts.

  368. Roberta Apr 13th 2013

    There were synagogues all over the place. Every time Paul preached in whatever town–he was in the synagogue on the Sabbath. Not everyone lived near Jerusalem. There were only three holy days that the Israelites were required to be in Jerusalem and were commanded to be in there. I believe it was Passover, Shavuot (Pentecost–which explains why the city was filled with people when the Holy Spirit came and 1000s were filled) and Sukkot–Feast of Tabernacles. Of course, God uses and will continue to use His holy days to accomplish everything. Jesus was crucified on Passover, was without sin–Unleavened Bread, and rose on First Fruits. The Holy Spirit came down on Pentecost. He will fulfill the last Fall feast days when He returns–Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles. This is why Paul said they are a shadow of THINGS TO COME (future).

  369. Richard Savage Apr 14th 2013

    Watchful, I deeply apologise, and that from a sorrowful heart, if you thought I was upbraiding you. I am so sorry. Please forgive me.

    May I explain?

    My post last evening responded to a trend on this thread, evidenced in and out of churches, to succumb to a prevalent teaching, that Israel, the land and the people, have been cast away by our Father, That is not so. There is no evidence. A teaching, seemingly lead by our western governments, that the Jewish people may be manipulated to the politician’s own ends. I care not to mention names here, but … America springs to mind.

    I take this stand, through thirty-odd years experience; when we line up our thinking, our hearts and our words with that which our God has already committed to us in the Bible, certainly concerning Israel the people and Israel the land, then we will see as He sees, act as He wishes us to act and live joyfully as He should live in us. We will speak tenderly to Jerusalem …

    Let us all never forget, the Gentile is blessed through the Jew, there is no direct blessing to the Gentile! Jesus came as a Jew, died as a Jew, was resurrected as a Jew and ascended as a Jew. To this day He is a Jew of all Jews. Are you blessed in some way? All stewardship of our Father’s riches in glory are according to Christ Jesus! The arbiter is the Holy Spirit. Are you truly born of again the Holy Spirit, growing in the image of Christ Jesus, then you are in … the church? No, you are not in but of, the Israel of God.

    The power and wealth of the British Empire largely came about because we as a nation were once again, after a long lapse, good to the Jews. The same may be said of America. When we, in1904, declared the Balfour Treaty favouring the establishment of a homeland in Israel for the Jewish people as not acceptable, then our troubles began. Just look over our history of the last 100 years and learn.

    It is an inconvenient truth to the churches Jesus the Jew is Lord of all. The knee will bend and the tongue confess Him, a Jew.

    Responding to an email today, please allow me to say, I have nothing to do with Hebrew Roots, or any other deviant organisation. But here I put my neck on the block, so to speak. Until the Gentile church, the organised church, accepts, imbibes and deeply absorbs the fact it’s roots are in Judaism, in Jerusalem, in Golgotha, it will be nothing more than the Apple Corporation, or Exxon or whatever. At least Apple turns out good products, which is more than may be justly said for so many of our organised churches.

    Here, unusually I’ll quote: Zech 8:23, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even take hold of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you for we have heard God is with you.

    Might be good to be deep friends with the neighbourhood Jews!

    Watchful, and some other brothers and sisters, I sorrow and anguish for discomfort was caused you by my words. I turn away from that, and ask you to forgive me in Jesus Name, please.

  370. Roger (NZ) Apr 14th 2013

    Richard Savage – around about 20 comments in, on this thread, I said this, which you may have read..? (I quote the first part of my post): I well understand the trepidation Andrew, many today are turning to Augustines false teaching that the church has replaced Israel, and that Christians are the Israel of God

    The nation of Israel wasn’t chosen by God because they were special – they are special because they were chosen by God….

    Over the last couple of days, I have had an email discussion where I have asked others to explain to me the term ‘spiritual Israelite’ in relation to born again Christians, as I cannot find scripture supporting this, …and given your post above, where you say: “..Are you truly born of again the Holy Spirit, growing in the image of Christ Jesus, then you are in … the church? No, you are not in but of, the Israel of God…” it seems that I misunderstand the term ‘Israel of God’..?

    I would truly appreciate your understanding here – either publically on this thread, or by email. When I am wrong I need, and desire, to be corrected, for my own understanding, and so that I do not mislead others – on this thread, or at any other time 🙂

    Like you I believe that we, who are children of Almighty God, brothers and sisters of Lord Jesus, and members of His body, need to have the correct understanding of His truth on this topic (I’m not dismissing other topics) perhaps more so in these days than in any other time..

    In the desire for His truth, and in His love and light,

  371. Lightning Storm Apr 14th 2013

    I agree again Roberta, but my point is that the Gentile believers did not WORSHIP with the Jews in the synagogues. There is a difference between worship and teaching. I was looking at synagogues the same way…..AS PLACES OF WORSHIP…..which is what we call our church buildings.

    All through scripture we are taught to worship Elohim WHEREVER HIS PRESENCE IS.

    If His Presence wasn’t there, then it would be VAIN worship and RELIGIOUS TRADITION.
    That is one reason we have the Holy Spirit within us today. A NEW TEMPLE in which His Presence never leaves and we can worship any time any place EVERY DAY.

    Mar 1:21 KJV
    And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and TAUGHT. (not worshiped)

    Luk 4:16 KJV
    And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for TO READ.

    Luk 4:31 KJV
    And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and TAUGHT them on the sabbath days.

    Act 13:15 KJV
    And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

    Act 13:27 KJV
    For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled [them] in condemning [him].

    We who have been born must enter into the REST/SABBATH of the Lord…..where we WORSHIP HIM EVERY DAY IN HIS PRESENCE.

    No need to go anywhere to worship….He is with us…but we must not forsake the assembling ourselves together for teaching, prayer, and providing the Gifts of the Spirit to one another as the Lord gives.

  372. Lightning Storm Apr 14th 2013

    oops again….Jesus TAUGHT in the synagogues.

    “We who have been BORN AGAIN must enter into the REST/SABBATH……..”

  373. OK Marilyn, I’d like to begin by stating that I know that you are a sister in the Lord and that I love you as such… 🙂

    Having stated that I do also have to state that I feel that some of what you have been taught has not been the truth of God…

    The meek shall inherit the earth…

    Are you meek Marilyn? Yes, I’ve already observed that you are so that means that you – yes, you also – will inherit the earth…

    So that where He is there you may be also…

    Will you be where Jesus is Marilyn?

    Yes, you will be…

    Where will Jesus be for the thousand years when He is reigning from His Throne – the throne of His father David – in Jerusalem?

    In Jerusalem…

    So where will you be at that time?

    All the promises of Abraham – in Christ – are “Yes and Amen” to us who believe…

    Love in the Lord,


  374. watchful Apr 14th 2013

    Dear Richard, peace to you, and please have no worries on my account whatsoever….it was sorrowful but at the same time a privilege to hear you open your heart as you did and even in anger you did not sin…there was no sting of condemnation……wonderfully typical of those Jewish souls that i have met, and which I love very much. On the contrary the things you said have added greatly to my understanding, and how to petition the Lord, etc on behalf of your people. There is so much deep-rooted rejection that the Jewish people are carrying and which needs to be healed for the plans of God to be fulfilled, and it will be, I have no doubt, in His time, His way.

    No He has not cast away the Jewish people, of that I am certain, just that for me I am still uncertain of the details and distrusting of the ‘mainstream’ as far as all that goes, so am seeking for the truth from the Lord Himself.. Some of my comments on this thread have been sort of geared to counteract a kind of idolatry that is very popular but which is actually dangerous and not helpful to the Jewish people and don’t represent the sum total of my thoughts. I worked for seven years at a Jewish health care facility until a few years ago and became very well acquainted with what I call the “Jewish soul”. I miss the people there very much. Ah, I could write a book, and would like to say more, but am very tired this evening, and not too certain of my judgment when in this state, but just know that I am sure the Lord hears the cry of your heart and that you are very much loved. Shalom for now, and I will just leave you with this scripture:

    Isa 54:4 ¶ Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

    Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

    Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

    Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

    Isa 54:9 ¶ For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

  375. Marilyn Crow Apr 14th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton,

    Thank you Andrew & I appreciate you also, especially the prayers you post, very encouraging.

    Now to your thoughts. Did you realise that you didn`t have any scriptures? Now we know that we need to read in context & to whom it was said. some scriptures are said to individuals & some to groups.

    1. `The meek shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5: 5) The Lord said that to the children of Israel & He was quoting Ps. 37: 11. This is a great promise that was known to Israel.

    `The Body of Christ has better promises,` you said, I agree.

    2. To be where Jesus is – Good point & we all desire that. Jesus has already shown in His glorified body that He can traverse realms & dimensions.

    The 1,000 year Millennial reign as we know it from the Old Testament was promised to Israel & is called the Davidic kingdom.
    A man called David will actually be king of Israel at that time.

    After the time of Jacob`s distress, the Lord God says that Israel,
    `shall serve the Lord their God & David their king whom I will raise up for them.` (Jer. 30:9 whole chapter is great.)

    What a wonderful promise to those in Israel who turn to their coming Messiah.

    Your question to me is `Where will I be at that time? I will answer soon. My question to you is `Where will you be? (with scriptures)


  376. Ken1… you really think that ALL there is to know is included in the Bible????? You are aware that the councils of man picked what should be included in the Bible? And I believe the Catholic organization came from that organized attempt to streamline the faith back in that day. The Holy Roman Empire joined hands with the kings and ruling class, and had quite a control of the power structure, leading to accusations of “error”, heresy, burnings at the stake, etc. None of which was approved by Jesus Christ. And, of course, than as years passed by, the Protestants decided to split from the Catholic faith, and many now even believe that the Vatican may become the false prophet spoken of in Revelations. Of course the Protestants than warred amongst themselves for their own truth of things, and called the other denominations in error. I say, that God was still able to put His Holy Truth there in the Bible, inspite of man. The Holy Spirit has still been able to lead Believers to Jesus Christ, inspite of man. Man, just as you do to me, will still continue with their own brand of understanding, and until Jesus Christ comes back and clarifies everything none of us will really know for sure, those who take a good honest look at the history of the man ran churches of earth.

    Not everything that has happened in this world is recorded in the Bible, inspite of what you have been taught.

    There is a great deception coming, and because the churches only teach bits and pieces of the Bible, many will be deceived.

    In your opinion, than, only what you agree to can be posted? I clearly stated that it was my opinion and belief that certain things may mean this or that….because they are not clear in the Bible….and they have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel of Salvation.

    Would there be any need for discussion if we were all on the same page about non-salvational issues?

  377. Hi Marilyn,

    I’ve added emphasis to the following scriptures…

    Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB)

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15 KJV)

    “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:7-16 NASB)

    And my personal favourite… 🙂

    “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me! (Job 19:25-27 NASB)

    Jesus will reign on the throne of His father David as indicated in the following scriptures…

    “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” (Luke 1:32-33 NASB)

    “David himself said in the Holy Spirit, ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET.”‘ (Mark 12:36 NASB)

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV)

    I’m happy to have further dialogue on this with you sister…

    Love in the Lord,


  378. 1. There is a reason God gave us the NT in Greek- the language of the world and NOT in Hebrew.

    2. There is a land to be possessed but it is not natural. It is our lives/souls -overcoming sin, strongholds and the enemies rule in us.

    3. Preferring one ethnic group contradicts the spirit and letter of Jesus’ ministry and the NT in general.

  379. margaret Apr 14th 2013

    Richard, I was watching TV documentaries about the Holocaust in 1975, at the same time that I was ” in a relationship” with a Jewish young man when we were drama students. I had a deep revelation that Jesus was the son of God when I saw what had happened in WW2 to the Jews.I was in love with that Jewish young man ; he was tormented ,distraught ,lost, a poet . I left that world of drug addiction and immorality behind and walked into a relationship with another Jew – Jesus , Yessuah…..if I ever look back it is to marvel at my relationship with Yessuah that has lasted 37 years, and I now live to tell people that this is my testimony of salvation…..what a glorious salvation…what a mighty Saviour ,the Lion of Judah, and the lamb of God, not cliche not pat answer not an institution ..a resurected life….

  380. Marilyn Crow Apr 14th 2013

    Thank you Andrew J. Horton. I also enjoy looking at God`s word & know that the Lord will lead us & clarify truth to us. Good scriptures. I`ll address each one.

    1. Luke 1: 32 – 33 & Is. 9: 6 – 7.
    You are right these are about Christ on the throne of David. However Christ will reign through a regent, a king named David as I said before. Christ will reign from His seat of power in the thrid heaven.

    The Queen rules over Australia & New Zealand but she is personally not in either place, though she visits. Her authority
    can be seen when we go before the `crown,` at our courts.
    The Lord does not have to be on earth to rule over the earth.

    2. Rev. 19: 7 – 16 The `wife,` (Gk. gune) Israel (Is. 54: 6 & 62: 4)
    God divorced Israel but will remarry His wife, symbolic for uniting
    again with Israel. `righteous acts of saints,` are the Old Testament saints.

    3. Jude v.14 (& Zech. 14: 5 NAS) `holy ones,` follow this back to Deut. 33: 2 & Ps. 68: 17 which clearly show that these are the myriads & myriads of the angels, the holy ones.

    Christ Himself clearly tells us who He brings with Him.
    `And when the Son of Man comes in His glory & all the angels with Him..`(Matt. 25: 31. 24: 30 & 31. Luke 9: 26. 2 Thess.1:7)

    Most bibles have `holy ones,` or `holy angels,` however a few versions have written `saints,` & this has caused some confusion.
    However if we read all scroptures on this subject it becomes quite clear that it is the Lord Jesus, Israel`s Messiah, coming to earth with His Holy angels to judge the nations & to deliver Israel.

    4. Job. 19: 25. What a wonderful revelation Job had. The Lord standing on the earth & we know that will be the Mt. of Olives.
    (Zech. 14: 4) Then Christ sets up the kingdom rule with a king regent & priests before returning to His seat of power over all.

    I will address 1 Thess. 4: 17 when I write on `Where I will be…`
    Thank you. Marilyn.

  381. You are deceived in your understanding of Christ reigning through a regent Marilyn… 🙂

    You are also deceived about your understanding of the Bride being Israel… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  382. Marilyn Crow Apr 14th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    You asked me, `Where will I be at that time?` (Millennium)

    Oh glorious day when the mature Body of Christ (Eph. 4: 13 – 16)
    from across the world & throughout the generations, will be drawn to the Lord by a greater force than gravity – the love of our Lord. When we meet Christ in the air (1 Thess. 4: 17 – 18) & escort
    (Gk. meet = escort) Him to His own throne (Rev. 3: 21) then we will have our eternal setting.

    There in the third heaven we will receive our authority (crowns) for what we have done by the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 3: 13. 4: 5)
    This authority will be acknowledged that it is from the Lord & to Him. (Rev. 4: 11)

    My hope is to be there on that glorious day when my Lord & Saviour is invested with all `power, riches, wisdom, might, honor, glory & blessing,` (Rev. 5: 13) Christ will be recognised as the
    Conqueror, Eternal King & Heir. He then has all power as king, the highest position as Lord & has possession of all, as Heir.
    (Heb. 1: 3)

    Our first responsibility is as the heavenly court,(Dan. 7: 9 & 10)
    which will judge the world system (1 Cor. 6: 2) & fallen angels,
    (1 Cor. 6: 3). Throughout the time of God`s wrath upon the nations
    & God`s deliverance of Israel, (Rom. 11: 26) we see the Body of
    Christ, represented by the 24 elders agreeing with Christ`s judgment, (Rev. 4: 4. 11: 15 & 16).

    Then in the Millennium (Where would you be Marilyn?) I believe I will be ruling & reigning with Christ from His seat of power in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

    Now your picture is a bit different.
    You would have me & others to lay aside that glorious hope & to believe that we will dwell upon the earth in the Millennium.

    To dwell upon the earth in the Millennium
    – in my glorified body that can go through dimensions.
    – where people will still die, (Is. 65: 20)
    – where countries will have plagues because they did not obey the Lord. (Zech. 14: 18)
    – where Christ will reign over with a rod of iron. Immediate consequences for disobedience. (Ps. 2: 9)

    Are these the better promises you talked about. Andrew J.H?
    I think not.
    I do feel for you as with many other christians who have not been taught correctly.

    Your sister in Christ. Marilyn.

  383. Hi Marilyn,

    Christ will return physically to earth to reign for a thousand years – He will not reign through a regent…

    We – all who have believed in Him throughout all time – will be with Him (reigning with Him) – and so we will be forever with the Lord…

    Once we receive our glorified bodies we – those who believe in the Lord – will never die…

    The Bride of Christ is every single person who has ever put their faith in Christ…

    If it’s good enough for Job in his glorified body to come back to earth and see Jesus standing on the earth – if he’s (Job’s) going to be there – then I know that I’m also going to be there – this is what the Lord showed me when He gave me insight into that scripture…

    My heart leaps with joy within me – as does Job’s (and I feel the joy as I type)…

    I know the experience as it was very real to me when it occurred…

    Those in the white linen are the Bride of Christ…

    The context makes this clear – the emphasised portion of my post above (with the scripture from Revelation 19) shows that the Saints – the Bride of Christ – are the ones depicted immediately above who are wearing the white linen…

    Eternal Life is to know the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent…

    To be with Jesus is Eternal Life…

    And I know that I will inherit the earth with Jesus…

    Jesus said (speaking to the churches),

    To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2:26-29 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  384. Marilyn Crow Apr 14th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    I read what you say & yes it would be wonderful to believe that we will have glorified bodies on this earth.

    However I believe the Lord when He says,
    `my hope, my citizenship, my inheritance is reserved in heaven.`
    (Phil. 3: 20, Col. 1: 5, 1 Peter 1: 4)

    So I think we may have to leave it there & await our precious Lord to bring clarity to us in His time.

    God bless. Marilyn.

  385. Hi Marilyn,

    If you continue to post here that Christ will not return physically to reign on earth from the throne of His father David in Jerusalem and that we – His saints – will not return with Him – as is clearly written in scripture then I will continue to bring the truth against what you are posting…

    Love in the Lord,


  386. motherofnations Apr 14th 2013

    Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10 lays it all out clearly. Chapter 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.”

    The first (old) covenant had to be done away with to establish the second covenant….Jesus is the second covenant. It is very clear when reading this scripture. We have to read the bible from the beginning to the end, then we have to understand the tabernacle and it’s rituals and rites and their significance. Then we need to study the NT and we will then see the comparisons and parallels between the two covenants.

    Upon reading Hebrews again I finally understood that Jesus body was the equivalent of the “veil” in the OT tabernacle that was torn in two upon His death. Jesus ascended into the holy of holies being the throne of the Father.

    Understanding this we know that it is as Andrew states. That yes there will be a remnant of Israel saved. But to make an idol of Israel is plain wrong. 🙂

    The hebrew roots movement has permeated the churches and really they just bring everyone back under the law. And the bible says that to rely on the law for justification is to “fall from grace”. When we “fall from grace” we are no longer under the new covenant. Pretty serious.

    Incidentally, my ancestors are Israeli.


  387. “…………the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.” -Antiquities of the Jews (Book XI Chapter 5 Section 2) ”
    Sorry Israel (the nation) was not destroyed in 70 AD Judah was
    “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Israel and Judah were two nations not one!
    Ask ourselves which Nation (people ) have been custodians of the Gospel for the majority of the last two millennia
    Pr Michael

  388. I will be be brief as possible, I am speaking to those who know the bible so no refrences.
    My understanding on the end is that the tribulation will be focused on Israel but not altogether…. woe to those with child etc.
    When the Lord comes with His saints to rapture their bodies & we meet in the air we will rule & reign with him. One have ten cities others more or less etc…we will rule with Him obviously under Him.
    During tribulation there were those ….I was hungry & you fed me etc who enter the Kingdom, well those are the ones who inherit the millennial reign & are ruled by the risen saints under Kingship of Christ & all the feasts have to be attended.
    Those inheriting the mill. reign are not saved… they fed & cared for the saints as already stated. Their temptation comes when the devil is released at the end & thats when they make their choice for Christ. NO ONE at any time inherits eternal life with Christ not being born again by His Spirit & cleansed by His blood.
    Folk in that time will again live as long as they did in the beginning, Adams time, over 900 years. Only they will eat of the trees they planted, no one else….. Isa 65.
    After the 1000 years…..who knows where & how!!!!! In the heavens somewhere…..who cares….it will be WITH HIM

    Be Blessed

  389. From Wikipedia a Jewish explanation of this question:-

    “Brit-Am, sometimes confused with British Israelism, is an organization centered in Jerusalem, and composed of Jews and non-Jews. Brit-Am, like British Israel, identifies the Lost Ten Tribes with peoples of West European descent, but does so from a Jewish perspective quoting both biblical and Rabbinical sources. The evidence that Brit-Am relies upon is biblical in the light of Rabbinical Commentary but is supplemented by secular theories that posit the Lost Tribes / Scythian / Cimmerian connection, which they then believe to have become various Western European nations.[53] An example of Brit-Am scholarship may be seen from its treatment of Obadiah 1:20[54] [in Hebrew Obadiah mentions the Sepharad, believed by some to refer to Iberian Jews], where the original Hebrew as understood by Rabbinical Commentators such as Rashi and Abarbanel is referring to the Lost Ten Tribes in France and England.[55] Brit-Am also believes that “Other Israelite Tribes gave rise to elements within Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, Wales, France, Holland, and Belgium” and that “The Tribe of Dan is to be found amongst part of the Danish, Irish, and Welsh.” Brit-Am also believes that the Khazars were descended from the Ten Tribes and quotes Jewish and non-Jewish sources that were contemporaneous with them.[56]
    My question is if there is not people today with a reigning king who fit the numerous promises made to Abraham, David, others Kings. and the song of Moses then borrowing from Andrew “…. if this is not so, then large chunks of Scripture become
    utterly incomprehensible’.

    Israel the Nation is not Israel the church!

    Both have a part to play in the future unfolding of the plan of God under the coming King, who will take up the throne of His father David. This then will be both an “heavenly (spiritual)” and and earthly (on this planet) throne with one King of kings with the saint’s (priests and kings) ruling as Andrew J H says above.
    Israel as a nation will be reborn!.-
    Ezekiel 37 – dry bones restored-
    – The two sticks one for Joseph and one for Judah become again one nation. With Jesus as King this has not yet happened, As Paul says Israel the nation (not the church) is blind until all the gentiles come in.
    . Who is taking the Gospel message to them ? – the blind people Israel. Judah as a natiois still in rejection.
    Pr Michael

  390. Andrew this has been a very interesting topic.Some have been really eye opening & some have been..well…….not so.
    No church bashing, just opinions. Great.

    May I repeat old requests? please keep posts short, cut the unnecessary stuff & get to the point. I want to read all posts but like many others just delete the long winded ones.

  391. With respect Ian “TEN” cities is likely a symbolic number . Remember Jesus spoke to them in parables, and without a parable he did not speak……
    According to Bullinger here is the meaning of “ten”

    Ten in the Kingdom context must have a positive meaning rather than negative so i take Bullingerr rather than the opposite view here:-
    Plus Bullinger shows much more evidence.

    Pr Michael

  392. Interesting to note that Isaac & Ishmael were brothers. Now look at their descendants, Arabs & Jews, are they not uncannily alike? Brothers?
    I say forget about the Brittish Israelite stuff.

  393. You’re right Micheal, it was a parable but He was explaining something using a parable. The issue at hand was a Kingdom, ruler-ship & servants being rewarded for actions taken. five was also used in the same parable.

  394. ian Yes half brothers, and let’s not forget Jacob and Esau!- twins, yet opposites before God.
    Jacob -Israel and Esau-Edom.
    Pr Michael

  395. Ian, just for the record i am not a “British Israelite” but also for the record they (BI) quote a lot of scripture that pose questions many theologians do not refute with scripture or history but rather heap scorn. and ridicule upon these folk. (not you Ian) Rather i look sound reasoning and educated scriptural dispute, on any Biblical subject (iron sharpens iron)
    I quote Josephus the celebrated Jewish Historian i believe he would have a better handle on Israel the nation. than any modern scholar including yours truly .

    As for Brit Am from their web site:- i post

    BRIT-AM is an ORTHODOX JEWISH Organization
    #1) Do Orthodox Jews believe in Replacement theology? NO
    #2) Do Orthodox Jews believe in Christian British Israelism? NO

    That said, their take on Welsh and Hebrew i find fascinating.

    Please Ian i am not passing the above ideas as doctrine, but there are many things in orthodox secular and sacred history, that have been perverted for political or other reasons and we do well to be aware of this fact.
    Cheers Pr Michael

  396. Ian,
    Great brief summary,
    I agree on this, will add that the woman who gives birth to the man child (first rapture), will be fed by the Lord in the wilderness for three and a half years. He has a place prepared for her.The woman is the unbelieving church, which will go up in a second rapture after the three and a half years, it says later they will reign with him for a thousand years. Christians caught up with Christ during first and second rapture will rule during the 1000 years with him (under His Lordship), they will rule the cities with a rod of iron because they overcame in all things as spoken to the seven churches. They will be given glorified bodies.

    The man child is not Jesus because He did not go to the throne immediately after He was born. The man child is the five wise virgins who made themselves ready and overcame in all things.


  397. How is this for keeping it short? Ian….GREAT summation in reference to your understanding on the end ! 😉 You have agreement here.

  398. Spurgeon'sPs.103 Apr 14th 2013

    Many helpful posts here. How God views all His People regardless of the root of their existence. All really have the same root, his great grace and mercy toward all men. One singular thread resurfaces through the ages. God ‘repeatedly’ asks, what have men done with my precepts and commandments? Israel’s heritage has always been God’s revelation in His Words. To whom much is given… Obedience or disobedience to God’s revealed will is the test of all generations who have known the goodness of the Lord. Those, He expects all to honor and obey his words, with no differentiating between Jew or Greek here. Spurgeon’s insight on this.

    “From the manner in which some men unguardedly preach the covenant, one might infer that God would bless a certain set of men however they might live, and however they might neglect his laws. But the word teaches not so. The covenant is not legal, but it is holy”

    The PSALM 103 The Trearury Of David,
    by Charles H. Spurgeon
    Children of the righteous are not, however, promised the Lord’s mercy without stipulation, and this verse completes the statement of the last by adding: To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. The parents must be obedient and the children too. We are here bidden to abide by the covenant, and those who run off to any other confidence than the finished work of Jesus are not among those who obey this precept; those with whom the covenant is really made stand firm to it, and having begun in the Spirit, they do not seek to be made perfect in the flesh. The truly godly keep the Lord’s commands carefully—they “remember”; they observe them practically—”to do them”: moreover they do not pick and choose, but remember “his commandments” as such, without exalting one above another as their own pleasure or convenience may dictate. May our offspring be a thoughtful, careful, observant race, eager to know the will of the Lord, and prompt to follow it fully, then will his mercy enrich and honour them from generation to generation. This verse also suggests praise, for who would wish the Lord to smile on those who will not regard his ways? That were to encourage vice. From the manner in which some men unguardedly preach the covenant, one might infer that God would bless a certain set of men however they might live, and however they might neglect his laws. But the word teaches not so. The covenant is not legal, but it is holy. It is all of grace from first to last, yet it is no panderer to sin; on the contrary, one of its greatest promises is, “I will put my laws in their hearts and in their minds will I write them”; its general aim is the sanctifying of a people unto God, zealous for good works, and all its gifts and operations work in that direction. Faith keeps the covenant by looking alone to Jesus, while at the same time by earnest obedience it remembers the Lord’s commandments to do them. —

  399. GaryB; The parable of the woman giving birth to the child who the dragon attempts to eat, but which child was caught up to the Father’s throne, seems to me to so tightly fits the story of Jesus coming as the Son of Man. Picture it. How the woman (symbolic of the DNA of Adam/Abraham/etc.) finally gave birth to Jesus Christ, and than satan did everything he could to tempt and destroy the task to which Jesus had committed. Satan surely thought he had succeeded when the earthly existence of Jesus was destroyed on the cross! However, He descended to give Light to those who could see in the Holding place, (fill in your own name for this place) ressurrected to demonstrate eternal life to the disciples, and than He was caught up to the Throne of the Father, becoming the Right Hand of the Father (my own words for Right side of the Throne). Than God scattered the DNA of the physical seed of Jesus (exclusive of the 144,000 which have a special purpose) all over the Wilderness (World, even here in America) so that in the latter times the DNA seed could be returned to Jerusalem when Christ comes as OMEGA. (that physical seed which survives the Wrath which takes place within the 3-1/2 years….counting also the tribulation of the Trumpets which centers over in the middle east) (Wrath is probably world wide, exclusive of those spots the “Woman” is tucked in). The 144,000 that are specifically sealed for safety just after the 7th Seal is removed (the removal of this seal allows the trumpets and than after the 7th trumpet, the Vials to occur) are special and gather with Christ when He smites the mountain over there when His foot hits earth (probably during the 69th year of the 70 given to the latter day Israel, during the end of the Vial period)….just before the battle of Armeggedon. The old Testament prophets spoke many times about this “gift” (which I think is the real, final, everlasting gathering of the Jews) which gift was described as being brought back to Jerusalem within the specific setting of the final pre-Mellinium battle (Armeggedon) being over.

    Because this “woman” has been hidden, satan upon his physical return to earth during the 5th/6th trumpets cannot find “her”, so he turns on those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This understanding is made difficult for those who do not believe that the last trump wherein the Church is transformed in a twinkling, is the same as the 7th and last trumpet described in the Bible in Revelation which is sounded when the abomination occurs (someone else claiming to be god….and possibly some of the Jews over in Israel actually believing him (theory). To me that is the last straw that God has been waiting for….to see how many will believe the pretender who refused to believe His own Son when presented to them much earlier. Those with the testimony of Jesus Christ are even now being persecuted over in the Islamic countries. The trumpets I believe will mainly focus on the middle east, but when the 6th trumpet sounds the apocolyptic battle that the dragon wins, he takes over the global system being set up right now. He pretends to bring peace to the world of man….finally claiming to be god. Than for a short time he will be pursuing those who because of their testimony of Jesus Christ refuse to worship him. Shortly the last trump sounds and the Church is taken/transformed to safety during the Wrath, which is shortened and doesn’t last the entire 3-1/2 years…more like 2-1/2 years.

    All these parables and description of events fall perfectly into a pattern that makes sense, if one believes the New Testament statement that says the transformation occurs at the “last” trump…and if they believe the last trump is the last one spoken about in the Bible in Revelation. Again….these issues are not salvational and churches teach them differently. I just like to see the entire pattern make sense…and this is the one that allows for all to fit within all the scripture.

  400. Creation's Response Apr 14th 2013

    Poems can express precious truths.
    Man’s heart enquirers of God’s creation, how is it you are ever renewed and joy-filled ? Nature responds why God’s Hand of favor rests upon her. Awesome!

    In Ella Wheeler Wilcox’s poem, nature gives ~ Response ~ to man’s searching heart

    I said this morning, as I leaned and threw
    My shutters open to the Spring’s surprise,
    “Tell me, O Earth, how is it that in you
    Year after year the same fresh feelings rise?
    How do you keep your young exultant glee?
    No more those sweet emotions come to me.

    “I note through all your fissures how the tide
    Of healthful life goes leaping as of old;
    Your royal dawns retain their pomp and pride;
    Your sunsets lose no atom of their gold.
    How can this wonder be?” My soul’s fine ear
    Leaned, listening, till a small voice answered near:

    “My days lapse never over into night;
    My nights encroach not on the rights of dawn.
    I rush not breathless after some delight;
    I waste no grief for any pleasure gone.
    My July noons burn not the entire year.
    Heart, hearken well!” “Yes, yes; go on; I hear.”

    “I do not strive to make my sunsets’ gold
    Pave all the dim and distant realms of space.
    I do not bid my crimson dawns unfold
    To lend the midnight a fictitious grace.
    I break no law, for all God’s laws are good.
    Heart, hast thou heard?”

    MAN’S HEART: “Yes, yes; and understood.”

  401. Kitty

    How can this fit the story of Jesus?

    Rev. 12: She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

    Jesus was not caught up to the throne as a child and at this point in history He has not ruled nations with this rod of iron, we only see Him telling the church of Thyatira that they would rule the nations with a rod of iron if they overcame.

    Then again we have to see this woman is being fed by God in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Mary was not sent to the wilderness to be fed by God so we know it was not her.

    Devouring the woman is like trying to destroy her, why? because of this manchild. We know the dragon did not try to devour Mary.

    In Revelation 2: God tells the church of Thyatira that to them who overcome, they will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

    25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

    27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
    They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’

    Those who come back with Christ in their glorified bodies will be given a rod of iron to rule the nations during the 1000 year reign of Christ. They kept His word until the end.

    What other time in history have Christians ruled the nations with a rod of Iron? None

    Jesus said: 29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

    This is something you have to take before the Lord and listen to what He says by the Spirit.


  402. Awesome!! Gods Word is awesome, His plan & method is awesome because He is awesome. I wonder if we know how awesome His word is, written by the most awesome wisdom a million miles above ours, wisdom that not only knows, but has made the future. Here we guess, study, pontificate, argue etc etc & when hearts are good I think God loves it as we learn more & more of Him out of all the discussions.
    I’m sure He doesn’t get as tense as we do sometimes with all this.
    If we didn’t care about Him, we wouldn’t even discuss it.
    Well I don’t think we will even care about all this when He comes & all is revealed, it will be so great to be with Him.
    Bless you all from here in SA & you’re all asleep on the other side of the world

  403. Creation's Response Apr 14th 2013

    Ian, re: Awesome!! Gods Word is awesome,

    😀 Loveit! Thanks for this post!

  404. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    to Ken1
    If you do not cherry pick (pull only parts of scripture that fits what you think) and read what is written both before and after the part you pull out it takes on a whole new meaning. Hebrews 8:8 for example if you read a bit further on you will notice that it says the renewed covenant or new covenant will be written and all the laws will be written in the hearts and minds. The new covenant has not yet been written
    Take another example Hebrews 10:9 since you only took part of it and did not read on you saw the 1st done away with and 2nd put in place. Well if you read the rest you will see that it was talking about the sin offering. The blood of animals to take away sin was done away with when Yahshua’s blood was spilled for us he was the new sin offering. It also goes on to say in 10:24-10 26 that once you know the truth you must not purposefully sin because there is only the one sin offering. Once you have accepted Yahshua as your sin offering you get no second chance. Also read on in 10:28 and it tells you not to disregard the Torah of Moses.
    Then you gave the scriptures Hebrews 12:24 here again you have to read all of what is around it and you find out it is the covenant to come that it is not yet written.

  405. Let me tell you said the spider to the fly…..There are so many sly concludsions and balance of human thought that appear delicious. The only safety in Jesus and life-ever-after is to Stay in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the only answer, Jesus Christ, and He crucified. Man’s thought is ‘but’ a paper tiger.

  406. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    Either you accept Torah and Y’shua or you reject both the Torah and Y’shua, listen to Y’shua’s own instruction:
    “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. But if you don’t believe his writings (the Torah), how will you believe My words?” John 5:46-47

  407. Gary B; The male child was Jesus, and He was caught up to God. (33 years plus or minus against eternal life is still a child! 😉 Jesus is Omega who is dipicted in Revelations as returning with a sword in his mouth and a rod in his hand with many crowns to rule over all nations. Alpha and Omega. He rules over the Mellinnium Kingdom. Rev.19:11-16) He was also the One who started everything here for our restoration on this field (earth)….ALPHA.

    The woman is not Mary. Mary was just the end result, accummulation of the Jewish DNA that gave birth to Jesus. Because of her DNA and her lineage, and her obedience to God, she was deemed worthy. The “woman” in revelation are the people who share the DNA of Jacob….which Mary also shared. From the beginning God knew He was bringing forth Jesus Christ from the Jewish Seed of Jacob. That is the woman in Revelations.

    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (Rev.12:1)

    The dragon waited for her to give birth so that he could devour the manchild. It is when he returns in the latter times that he seeks to destroy the “woman” explained above, but cannot find “her” because she has been hidden by being scattered long ago, so he turns on those with the testimony of Jesus Christ. Read: (Rev.12: 1-13). It is not about just one spot in time, but about the beginning of the Jewish people onward through their history, and ending with the latter times when the dragon is returned during the 5th and 6th trumpets. You will notice that these verses also speak about a flood spuing from his mouth. And you will remember that Jerusalem is also destroyed by a flood in the end times. A symbolic flood. (Dan 9:26)

    Christ is the one who holds the rod of iron, He is the King. The Saints help Him because they are now like Him. Remember the scriptures about when we next see Him we will be like Him, and the scriptures that refer to the living waters that come out of the Fountain (Christ), and the scriptures that describe the living waters coming out of our bellies when we become His? (John 7:38; 1stJohn 3:2; Jer 17:13)

    We are (or rather will be) the crystal clear waters that come out of from under the throne to heal the earth and help Him rule during the Mellinnium. But, we are also much more, for the Mellinnium only last 1,000 years. Christ is the Fountain, and what does He produce? Living Water, Eternal Life.

    I am totally relying on the Spirit. God showed me what we become….and it totally matches up with Scripture.

    Do you remember the prayer that Christ prayed to the Father before He was crucified? Yes, we are in Him, He in Us, and we are all in the Father…we will be the waters coming out of the throne in the Mellinium, and the story does not stop there….it is Eternal!!!

  408. It is difficult to understand where we get the idea of two covenants. Perhaps you can give me Scriptural reference for this. What I read in the Word of God, there was one covenant made between God and man. This was broken (repeatedly) beginning with Eve and then Adam and then many others. However, God continued to keep His part of the covenant.

    People love to quote the idea of the OT being a shadow, but fail to realize that a shadow is a reflection of something. The OT was a shadow of that which would come (the NT Church). The NT church was not the afterthought it was the pattern from which the we first saw the shadow in the OT.

    God is NOT a covenant breaker. God did not come to eliminate the OT, rather he came to fulfill.

  409. fabakary Apr 14th 2013

    “Behold I come quickly : blessed is he that keeper the sayings of the prophecy of this book. “(Rev.22v7)
    concerning the book of revelation,It did not say blessed is he that “know the saying of this book” but “blessed is he that keeper the saying of this book”. I think that mean, the message is for us , but because it appears full of signs , symbols etc it appears as if it is mostly for another people .
    Our prayer is “Lord what saying in that book of revelation do you want me to keep ” . Our blessing Lies in Keeping the sayings , but how can we keep the saying when we think it may not be for us. Maybe if we ask the Lord he may show us what we need to keep, in those saying. I don’t think He is saying our blessing lies in knowing it. Then if our “knowledge ” of the book has no practical application in our daily lives that will mean we did not know it yet; what we know about it must have a practical application in our daily lives and trials.

  410. PS: The Jewish people who survive the Wrath will be gathered to Jerusalem, will serve and reign with Jesus Christ there, and the world will honor them during the Mellinnium. The prodigal son returned Home, living at home as a son should. Their clay bodies will live longer, because the earth is being healed from the curse by the Living Waters, and they will have a life span like in the days of Methusala (sp). They will live safely there without walls, until at the end the dragon is unbound and gathers many to attempt to overthrow them again. The last test. And, God destroys them, those who chose satan’s will after being perfectly taught without any of the mysteries that exist now. Than comes the final judgement and 2nd resurrection, and than death, hell, and satan, and all those not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb are thrown into the fires of the 2nd death. The prodigal Jewish Son who returned home and served His father faithfully will after the Mellinnium also become the Living Waters (which is symbolic for Eternal Life within the Father, via the Fountain…Jesus Christ). By the way….all rule and authority is returned to the Father after the Mellinnium. And, guess what, by that time all are in One, but able to be separate.

    There is scripture that states that God honors his covenant with Israel, not because they deserve it, but because of His Name. One of the Old Testament prophets spoke it.

    Obviously, any race, including the Jewish (seed of Jacob), if they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD now, before He returns, via Faith, they also will be a part of the New Covenant which turns us into those Living Holy Spirit Waters (symbolic), with a body like Christ that can flow anywhere through space and time….anywhere the Eternal Father is. Waters that have been cleaned to Crystal Purity, by the Fountain of Jesus Christ who shed His blood for us, even tho we do not deserve Him.

    I can find scripture for everything I have said above. The Race has only one destination in the end…..Death or Life. Jesus Christ made it all possible. All should be greatful and humble under God for the opportunity He has given us to participate in the Divine Plan….to be with Him and in His Will.

  411. Kitty

    There is no need to further discuss this as I do not know of any men that are 33 years old who are considered a child. Somewhere down the road God will reveal what is of Him when it all unfolds.


  412. GaryB; Yes, God will reveal what is of Him. The Child was spoken of in the Old Testement, even to where He was going to be born. He came to earth, but remained pure and innocent, the only man on earth who was as pure as a child…to pay the price so He could open the Scroll as the Lamb. I am sure Jesus had great sympathy with the little innocent children that were and are harmed here on earth, as He did speak about that. He too was injured and killed, innocent like a child….so He could be our Lamb. But, no more, He comes back as King of Kings!

  413. Honest, GaryB, this is the last word from me. How does the dragon devour?

    Yes, he devours us by destroying our innocence. Christ was caught up and the dragon could not devour His innocense…He remained as pure as a child. Thus…He was symbolized at the Child that the dragon wanted to devour.

    God’s time is so different from ours. We think linear because of our time zone. God uses symbols that cross over the time restrictions that we think in.

  414. @ Jessica

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    “The mystery” that was made known unto Paul

    Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men”

    “not made known”

    How could this not be NEW?

    Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    “new testament”

    May a refare you to an excellent post above by Andrew J Horton Apr 13th 2013

    About sixty posts back 🙂


  415. Kitty
    Last word from me as well. 🙂 🙂

    The man child was birthed during the seventh trumpet blast. This is yet future. Or else you believe we are living in tribulation now.


  416. One more thing. The dragon started trying to devour the Child from the beginning in the Garden of Eden….and continued to try by having the fallen angels breed with the daughters of man in order to pollute the Adamic line. He continued his efforts right up to when Christ ascended up to the Father Realm. He now tries to devour the Faith of those who believe in the Child/LAMB. The dragon has already turned on those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. In the fullfillment of the latter time, 7th Seal, the battle turns physical. And, somewhere within that time we will than be transformed and caught up to the Father’s Realm also, turned into the Living Waters….available to help Christ our King….fully equipped to return with Him in the battle of Armeggedon. Some of us Saints anyway, I hope.

  417. according to the flesh all mankind is related, from adam,
    then from Noah forward.
    HOWEVER………….the only family , whether jew or any other
    THE only ONES of GOD…………….are those who walk by Faith.
    the first ones walked in the faith of the words of the prophets given them, all of which TOLD of HIS COMING
    the one who would cleanse Israel of all her sins……
    YET only a remant beleived and walked by faith.
    SO too are these days…….
    JESUS came nigh two thouand years ago……..
    and only a remant believe HE is the savoir who takes away the sins of the world. FAITH in HIM.
    Paul used words from old scriptures………..which said
    NOT all Israel is of Israel……….
    THE JUST shall walk by his faith.
    and HIS ARM BROUGHT salvation
    the WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us………….
    GOD is HIS WORD.
    The desicples were once curious and asked JESUS
    LORD at this time will you restore the KINGDOM back
    to ISRAEL…………and WHAT DID JESUS SAY………..
    TIS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times nor the seasons the FATHER has placed in HIS OWN TIME.
    I suggest we do the same. amen.

  418. fabakary, Dr. Bernie, Those logical deductions of inner thought are so delightful and right-on. With that approach, ask the Lord. He will show you. Yes, He will answer you… is good to share beliefs and opinions. Any Joe off the streets can tell you what he thinks, anywhere in the world. Only God can and will give you the correct, perfect, answer. That’s in anything: scripture, what to do, when to do it, absolutely everything.

    Kitty, I spent 7 years studying Christian eschatology ..Bible schools, courses by ‘experts’ in the field and when I came out. I knew nothing.(cynical) No, it’s not indicative of our Salvation, but it sure is important to our ‘well being’. I came out with a Pre-Trib satisfaction in my Bible study…., that was 1987 to now. I haven’t changed and have much more insight today than back then. Our enemies want us to stay out of Genesis and Revelatiion? And I wonder why???

  419. Galatians 3:26-29

    “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    There is one elect of God, and one body of Christ.

  420. @ Kitty

    1 Cor 15:22 For just as [because of their [c]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [d]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

    “in Adam ALL people die”

    When it says “ALL people” that tells me that “ALL people” came from Adam.

    1 Cor 15:45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit [restoring the dead to life].

    “the last Adam”

    Notice that the Holy Spirit said “last” IF He had said “second” that could imply that there may be a “third” or more

    Hope that helps


  421. LET us have NO fear…………if any here were a gestapo of the state……………I say REPENT and come to CHRIST NOW.
    we wish our enemies no harm, ONLY that they repent and COME to CHRIST.
    THIS is LIFE and LIFE abundantely. TO KNOW CHRIST
    and to live and walk in HIM and await the PROMISE of HIS return.
    I would pray rather that the gestapos come our way, which is in CHRIST.
    But do understand…………though all armies encamp against me,
    though men hunt for the prescious soul……..
    I shall NOT fear man………..nor trust in man, for vain is the help of man.
    My GOD is able to deliver me from the hand of all men,
    but even if he dont………..I SHALL NEVER WORSHIP thy gods
    nor conform to the ways of the WORLD.
    FOR INDEED i am saved………….nigh two thousand years ago,
    and by grace i realized this………..nigh seven years ago.
    SO i fear ONLY GOD who is able to kill both body
    and then soul in hellfire. govt is not the answer, nor its new religion of all paths lead…….
    WE are OF THE TRUE and ONLY GOD………….
    and when our time is up, we have NO FEAR
    for to be absent from the body is to be present from the LORD.
    to LIVE is CHRIST and joy abounds, to die is gain.
    LET CHRIST be magnified in our bodies, whether by death or in life. Again we wish our enmies no harm, only blessings upon those who persecute us………..that they too would COME to Christ to have life.

  422. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    Naming the testament of Yahshua’s The Brit Hadasha or renewed covenant is miss leading. It is a testament of his works and teachings and the continued teaching the Apostles after his death. It is not a covenant only continued teachings of Torah to the peoples.
    Paul’s letters have been miss interpreted over and over again and bastardized by the catholic Constantines that if you do not understand how the Hebrew people thought and lived you only get a Greek roman pagan point of view.
    Reread what you posted Ken1 as it states read to know Yahshua. What are you going to read only the new testament. The WORD is Yahshua and Yahshua is the WORD. Read John 1:1 through at least 1:23
    If you throw out the old than you throw out Yahshua

  423. fabakary Apr 14th 2013

    Amen Joan w , The Lord is a fair God; He does not mind much about our knowing of mysteries of the future like He is concern of those that have to do with our daily walk, Christ the mystery of God. “Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof”. The path to deception is to neglect the work of today , the call to KNOW THE LORD TODAY and go about speculating the future , of things hidden , and unclear.

  424. Andrew Apr 14th 2013

    I see that the extreme “Hebrew Roots” people have arrived in force on this blog. They must have told some of their followers to come over.

    We need to beware of the new “Judaizers” – just as Paul warned.

    People who want to steal away the wonderful NEW COVENANT sealed with Christ’s blood. Who want to put us all back under LAW and take away the WALK OF THE SPIRIT.

    Beware, my friends.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  425. YES LAMBS…………….
    when a mans heart is set above and not here on this earth
    nor its things………
    then that man is FREE, has peace, and joy abounds
    through all times………..good or harsh………..
    for their hope is in HIS PROMISE and HIS SALVATION
    and the GLORY which is to be revealed at HIS COMING.

  426. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    Everything I have shown is in the ” New Testament”

  427. Recieved ye the spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith.
    any group who wont preach CHRIST and him crucified
    but lean on something else…………..will NEVER win a soul.
    i hear of some you must worship on a certain day
    and they tell this to unbelievers etc………..
    others you must pronounce the name exactly right………..
    others…………you can eat no meat
    others………… must etc, and etc…………
    the ONLY WAY to win a soul……………is to preach CHRIST and him crucified………
    and others preach Christ , but they dont preach Christ and him crucified………..they preach CHRIST and the WORLD and its things, and that FALSE devil , satan, luciferain man proserpity gosple.
    MY advice…………………PREACH CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.
    and though we be NOT under the law, and while we seek to be justified in CHRIST……………SIN NOT…………
    Christ aint no ministir of sin…………ye have made yourselves transgressors. WALK in the SPRIIT and you WILL NOT fullfill the deisres of the flesh.
    the law upon our hearts…………..not made void, but magnified.
    NOT looked to as a letter of way of salvation or self righteousness.
    BUT simply NOT transgressing what GOD has said.
    Be blessed.
    The law is to be used for transgressors……….
    james used it…………..when CORRECTING the CHURCH.
    BUT never as a means of self righteous salvation.
    THEN ye have made void Grace, the works of CHRIST.
    YE who seek to be justified by the law
    YE have fallen from Grace. Even to those JEWS,
    peter, etc………..PAUL said……………you eat as do the gentiles and not as the jews…………SO WHY NOW are you trying to get the gentiles to live as do the jews.
    again we dont trangress the law or we have become transgressors. BUT we dont teach the law as a means of salvation. we can use it as a means to CORRECT , but NOT as a means of salvation. AMEN.

  428. Amen…Andrew S, you do well to warn of these “Judaizers” As you have said Paul had terrible trouble with them.


  429. Andrew Apr 14th 2013

    “For this is my blood of the NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” – JESUS – Matt 26:28.

    Don’t let them steal it away!

    -Andrew Strom

  430. Andrew, that i one of the Scriptures that i gave Jessica and her reply was –

    Naming the testament of Yahshua’s The Brit Hadasha or renewed covenant is miss leading. It is a testament of his works and teachings and the continued teaching the Apostles after his death. It is not a covenant only continued teachings of Torah to the peoples.


  431. Andrew Apr 14th 2013

    Hebrews 8:13 ESV
    “In speaking of a NEW COVENANT, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

    Don’t let them steal it!

    -Andrew Strom

  432. Andrew Apr 14th 2013

    2 Corinthians 3:6 ESV
    “Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

    Don’t let them steal it away!

    -Andrew Strom

  433. Amen, Randall, Amen. Here we are on ‘the end times’ and talking about that; and not on the Topic. That happens a lot. My vote is No, I do not believe in church ‘replacement’, no, no, no. The true name, Replacement Thealogy even gives it away as ‘bogas’. Satan is not subtle, he’s outragous. Figures.

  434. Jessica

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    “and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof”

    Israel was under Mosiac Law for about 1500 years, this ended with the death and resurection of Jesus.

    The Church (The Mystery) was born at Pentecost, where the INDWELLING Holy Spirit was given, for the first time.

    Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    “and take not thy holy spirit from me”

    This is how it was under Mosiac Law (Old Cov) the Holy Spirit ONLY came upon men and did not INDWELL and was given and taken away. This is the difference in the Old and New Cov’s as Andrew J said so well yesterday.

  435. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    As to Hebrews 8:13 read what is around it as I told Ken1 before.

    As to 2nd Corinthians. No one is denying that the only way we are saved is through Yahshua, but being Yahshua is the WORD and the WORD Yahshua then you must study the word to know Yahshua since he is no longer in the flesh to teach the word. He taught from the Tanach, (the Torah and the other Writings) So to know what he expects of us we must study the what HE taught from

  436. Jessica, have read around all of those script’s for about the last 34 years, thank you.


  437. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    Enjoy the Constantine church y’all. Yahshua will return and correct it all. Continue in your Pagan ways and traditions, after all there is no longer in your Eyes a need for instruction

  438. The Mosiac Law was ONLY given to Israel.


  439. The instruction given to the Church, was through Paul.

    Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


  440. Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,”



  441. Jessica Apr 14th 2013

    the blind leading the blind soon to go off a cliff.

    Israel was to bring the word to the nations but since they failed and followed pagan idols as you all seem to do
    Yah sent Yahshua to bring the word to the gentiles.
    These are my last words on this
    Continue to attack Messianics it is what we were told would happen. We try to teach the word and you attack us for it

  442. Jessica, what we have done is present the scriptures to you and it is up to you to except or reject them.

    Every blessing to you.

  443. Andrew Apr 14th 2013

    We do not attack “Messianics”

    We oppose only the ‘Hebrew Roots’ people who try and bring Gentile Christians under the Old Law.

    That is severe heresy.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  444. Kelling Apr 14th 2013

    Wow, bad Kool-aid going around.

  445. I apologize if someone has already addressed this. I confess that I read many, but not even half of the 445 replies!

    All who come to the Father, come by faith into Christ. How many times does the NT say “In Christ…”? All who are in the Church — regardless of their genetics — are IN CHRIST.

    He is the Branch from the stump of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). If we are in Christ, we are automatically part of the root of faith (as in “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”)

    God didn’t rip out the root and plant something else. The question seems to be how God deals with those who were physically born from the root, but reject faith in the Son. John 15 and the Romans passage seem to address that, but maybe that’s another conversation.

  446. Everything Andrew Strom is saying here is true. I was not familiar with this doctrine and had never heard of this replacement theology.

    A quick google of Hebrew Roots takes you right to a number of web sites with articles on keeping the festivals and Sabbaths, the law etc.

    Here is one of their web sites:

    [quote] What we discovered in all of this research and writing, is that there is great confusion about which law Paul
    is speaking of when he seems to be saying the “law has been done away,” or has been “nailed to the cross.” What
    many (maybe most) Christians do not understand, is that during the time of Y’shua and Paul there were two sets of
    laws which observant Jews were expected to follow. (The same is still true today.) First of all there was the Written
    Torah, those commandments found in the first five books of the Bible; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
    Deuteronomy. However, in addition, there is another law called the Oral Torah, or the Oral Traditions, which all
    Observant Jews were (and still are) expected to know and to keep. [ Quote]

    They are definitely teaching gentiles should keep the law. They have many articles that go into great detail on this subject.


  447. Ken1; I hear what you are saying. And that is the truth. That scripture is refering to the Adamic line.

    But, during Noah’s time there was breeding with the fallen angels who were supposed to be watching us. One of the reasons for the flood. I am speculating that some of those tainted races may still be with us, if their “makers” used their means (remember, they were in rebellion) to save some of them from the flood. I look at it as all theory. If some of those offspring of the angels and man did survive the flood…than being part of the Adamic line of people, they would also inherit the curse of death.

    I also understand very clearly that satan has yet to knuckle under to God, being the liar that he is, and being that he is in total rebellion. No matter what he does, God has already planned for it. I am comforted in that.

    I have always felt those verses were referring to the curse that the man Adam, caused. He brought the curse of death to this planet. I believe that Adam may have already had eternal life in Eden, had he not got kicked out…being made by God, perfect. I have always felt that the last Adam was Jesus Christ….who brought us Life again, as you said, Restoration.

    Again, the Bible is for us, what God wanted us to know so we would recognize His Son, and so we would know how to live, and know that He was God.

    GaryB, I’ll sneek one more word. 😉 We are not yet into tribulation in my opinion, but still in the 6th Seal influence. The tribulation of the trumpet wars, and the Wrath of the Vials are when the 7th Seal is removed, (possibly after the coming world economic total collapse of the money foundation that man stands upon….and possibly real earth tremendous shaking also.). I personally believe we have to go through the trumpets, except for the last one (7th). (theory).

    I think the woman given wings of an eagle was not the Church but the body of Jews that came through Jacob to eventually give birth to Christ.

    The Church “rapture” I believe is when in Revelations, (Rev.14: 13-20) Christ on the white cloud is handed a cycle by the angel and told that it is time. Rember that it was said by Jesus that even He did not know when we would be changed? He does not come to earth when we are raptured. We are His fruits, the Living Waters produced by Him, the Fountain. Remember He said we would see Him in the clouds when He was coming for us, just as when His apostles saw Him ascend into the clouds?

    Than after this, the angels are given their Vials to burn the tares, that are separated out in the Field, after we are placed in the Master’s “Barn”.

  448. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    Jessica please dont be offended but I hope you will take a good look at the scriptures Andrew Strom has put forward. The written law is still very useful for instruction as is all of the scripture, it is most certainly not done away with for that, but we keep the spirit of it, no longer obligated to keep the letter. Why not put the things you believe on the altar and ask God to sift it, the only things we ever have to lose by doing that are any untruths. And if anything is ever hard to put on the altar, then that tells us something right there………..

    Amen, randall and fabakery, this is wisdom that is needed here and worth repeating, it is so easy to wander into territory that our natural curiosity is leading us into, but not the Holy Spirit, and hope we will think on what you have written, selah:

    The disciples were once curious and asked JESUS
    LORD at this time will you restore the KINGDOM back
    to ISRAEL…………and WHAT DID JESUS SAY………..
    TIS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW the times nor the seasons the FATHER has placed in HIS OWN TIME.
    I suggest we do the same. amen

    Amen Joan w , The Lord is a fair God; He does not mind much about our knowing of mysteries of the future like He is concern of those that have to do with our daily walk, Christ the mystery of God. “Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof”. The path to deception is to neglect the work of today , the call to KNOW THE LORD TODAY and not go about speculating the future , of things hidden , and unclear.

  449. Well YAHUSHUA, told HIS own , the jews
    IF YOU BELIEVE NOT that i am HE
    YE shall die in you sins……….
    HE said to the , well how would paul later put this, those going
    about to obtain their own righteousness, which is of the law,
    HE told them……….ye are of your father the devil.
    as with the jew , who was told a savoir was coming to cleanse israle of all sins…..
    so too the gentile nations hear of this savoir who became sin for the whole world…….
    BOTH have to BELIEVE…………if they BELIEVE NOT
    then they die in their sins.
    PAUL was a man WHO KNEW TORAH………… letter not in SPIRIT, BUT when GOD called him OUT OF THIS……….
    BECAME THE TRUE JEW, and would count ALL THIS
    as dung , to be found IN CHRIST, not having his own rightoueness which is of the law…………BUT the righteousness which is of faith, in CHRIST.
    as did ABRAHAM. abraham had no law in letter.
    yet the scriptures in genesis says……….HE KEPT THE LAW
    the law………….YES the ONE UPON the HEART, in the SPIRIT
    which is of faith. the law was added due to transgressions, till
    the SAVOIR would come.
    NOW we dont make void the law, tis magnigied upon our hearts.
    TWO commandents which fullfill the law…………
    WE dont look to the law , WE LOOK TO CHRIST
    who fullfilled the law………and BY HIS POWER in spirit and truth
    the spirit of the law is upon our hearts.
    NOW. GO GET DEEP in sound doctrine.
    Pual warned of this too. And he was talking about what many call
    OLD testament. which aint OLD TESTAMENT
    its HOLY SCRIPTURES. look at what pleases GOD by faith
    DO what GOD approves, and dont do what he dont approve of.
    THAT is a walk made simple, a walk by FAITH in CHRIST.
    use the law to rebuke, correct etc………
    BUT never as a means of salvation. CHRIST is the ONLY WAY HOME.
    LIKE james or paul , or peter, or jude used the SCRIPTURES to teach and instruct in righteous holy living………DO THAT,
    but dont JUSTIFY oneslf BY the law………..the law
    you never fullfilled for all were transgressors………
    LOOK TO CHRIST……………walk in the SPIRIT
    not after the flesh…………..and endure faithful to the end…….
    and ye shall RECIEVE the PRIZE……………..the eternal crown
    given to all who HOPE in HIM amen.
    DONT teach to live as do the jews…………….
    TEACH to do as DID CHRIST……………..walk by FAITH as did Abraham and be blessed in his seed, the SEED , which is CHRIST. AMEN>

    HOW many of you all can SEE what i sppoke of above………
    IT made plain upon our hearts.
    the scrips will truly make one WISE unto salvation through our faith in Christ. TWO commanments
    LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WIHT ALL THY heart soul, strength, mind , being, breath, praise, song, through all times good or bad.
    LOVE thy neighbor as thyself. AS THYSELF………..
    AS THYSELF…………….shut eyes to needs……and the LOVE of GOD aint in ya………
    say in heart………..maybe when i get my next gadget or more money and then i will give………..LOVE OF GOD AINT IN YA……
    or the LOVE OF GOD aint in you.
    i have spoken to a few of this movment of yeshua …….
    and while they speak of his name
    THEY PRAISE , or some of them still PRAISE
    the prosperity gosple………..still store up here on earth.
    SO THEY IN SIN……………yet condmen anyone not LIKE THEM.
    condmen me………………cause i speak of GODLINESS with contentment. Say if you have five chickens and want six………
    it aint. yet they justify themselves……………while still in sin,
    and condmen me. BETTER we all PULL the LOG OUT
    FORE we condemn a man who speaks truth.

  451. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    Amen….. Bernie Wade

    Like binoculars, our FOCUS needs to widen to take in the full picture……the threads that weave from Genesis to Revelation.

    God ELECTED/CHOSE people to BRING HIS PRESENCE/LIGHT to the world of darkness.
    Abraham did not have the Law…..none of the OT had the Law of GOD until Moses!


    The Holy Spirit instructed/ wrote upon the hearts of OT SAINTS the LAW OF GOD.
    Otherwise the OT SAINTS would not be praised and honored in the Book of HEBREWS. (you notice it is not called the Book of JEWS)

    Just because the RELIGION “JUDAISM” HI-JACKED the Israelites’ worship of Elohim, does not END the Covenant that Father had with those who were WILLING TO OBEY HIS HOLY SPIRIT BY/ IN FAITH.

    The world has lumped together ALL HEBREWS into one big NATION BY BLOODLINE……when God NEVER did that. He ALWAYS had an OPEN ENDED COVENANT that ALLOWED ANYONE……including Gentiles……to enter into His Covenant.


    The Christian religion has been DUPED by the Counterfeit Israel……as I wrote about in earlier posts.

    THE JUDAIZERS with Hebrew blood HAVE ALREADY WON, and they have been gathering more support in the form of $$$ and APPROVAL TO KILL PEOPLE FOR LAND. They began their own CRUSADE hundreds of years ago.


    (Peter for instance)

    The Covenant with Abraham was to ALL NATIONS….in fact TO ALL OF CREATION……and that has not changed.
    The Covenant with Abraham and ALL who want to enter into that Covenant is BY FAITH AND OBEDIENCE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

  452. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013



  453. TO all who think they cant give……….
    SELL what you have……………….or return that stuff
    you got on credit……………and YOU WILL HAVE SO MUCH to GIVE…………LIVE PLAIN, LIVE FOR GOD
    and YOU WILL FULLFILL the law…………..
    for the LOVE OF GOD which is shed abraod upon our hearts
    fullfills the law.
    GO on now……………….sell that stuff…………them bills will cease
    maybe not quite that comfortable life one may have planned…..
    and the JOY of GIVING……………AMEN.
    GO and do likewise…………..then come and let us reason.
    the rich man couldnt do it either………..but the rich man
    knew not GOD,
    and here in amercia………………..we aint got a clue of hard times
    and lakcings………..and YET if we did and HAD CHRIST
    OUR JOY WOULD ABOUND. now to all have them hearts above.

  454. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    Amen, randall, you are speaking the truth, I don’t know who could possibly deny it.

  455. TO ALL……………please GO READ
    why the goats were kicked out
    and please go read why the sheep were allowed in…….
    HE never said you did not call me JEHOVAH………or did not use my hebrew name………..
    HE did not say you worshipped on a certain day or did not worship on a certain day………..
    and GO READ the sermon on the mount…….
    where he warns of covetousness
    then GO and do likewise
    then let us reason together.
    TWO COMMANDMENTS…………and they WILL NEVER make void what GOD has said to do
    nor do what he has said NOT TO DO.
    JESUS spoke the law of the spirit, which fullfills the entire law.
    NOW go and do likwise.
    TWO commandments………….
    MY advice………..READ the BIBLE and disregaurd all else
    way too many false teachers…………..way too many false teachers.
    SO , if you found your religion from another man
    OMIT that, begin anew in ONLY THE BIBLE
    GO after GOD, his every word…………
    SOON you will see clearly. amen.

  456. but before one attacks………….look at the advice i gave…..
    I said……………BEGIN anew………… ONLY BIBLE.
    NOW , how is that evil or wrong.
    I never said HE FOLLOW ME, DID i………….
    so test what i said……………..put everything down
    put down all other books, stop looking up info on internet
    guess what …………….we wouldnt argue anymore
    we would agree.
    man has complicated so much which should be so plain.

  457. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    …and I agree with those who are saying we need to follow the threads from beginning to end to see the whole picture….that is very helpful.

  458. heres a lil telling……..
    the son of a wise man was told to go to market and buy some fish
    HIS father had warned him dont do as i say and you shall be punished, do as i say and when i come back, you will be rewarded.
    So the Father left………………and the boy left out to market
    on the way he met a serpent, who asked him
    boy where do you go, in such a hurry………
    to which the boy replied…….i go about my Fathers command.
    FOR if i go i am rewared, but if i disobey i am punished upon
    my Fathers arrival. OH………..said the serpent
    Has not your father said he wants you to be happy?
    Well yes said the boy.
    SO would you not rather by playing and doing what makes you feel good ………..
    Well yes said the boy……………………
    Your father will understand said the snake, he gives grace.
    So the boy left off to play.
    Upon HIS Fathers arrival……………..he asked son where are my fish. TO which the boy replied………….father you know how you have told me you wanted me to have joy and happiness……..
    and the FATHER said………..yes son i wanted you to be happy.
    SO then the boy says……….Father i took it upon myself to go
    and play , for that makes me happy.
    SO what makes us so wise as to think GOD would ever
    give GRACE to twist what JESUS has said to DO or not to do.
    and THE FATHER is COMING BACK………..
    BE FOUND as you would want to be found.
    GO read the bible and set aside these false men. amen.

  459. Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you. But to

    do justly,

    to love mercy, and

    to walk humbly with God.

    Zep. 2:3 Seek the LORD all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the LORD’s anger.

    Our Father, Who are in Heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil. For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, Forever! Amen.

  460. KITTY…………….that post you just wrote……….
    THAT is the beauty of GODS hidden treasures………..

  461. Averyl Apr 15th 2013

    Kitty, – wow, I just used that text in a paper on parenting I typed out this morning! Confirmation!

  462. Jackie Apr 15th 2013


    Jesus also told Nicodemus in John 2:3 “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” & Jesus continues in Jn3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life”

    Jesus has made it quite clear in his conversation with Nicodemus that NOT ONE PERSON will enter the Kingdom of God without the “Born Again” experience…NOT ONE, this INCLUDES all Jews!

  463. Sandra G. Apr 15th 2013

    Randall, AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,
    AND I SAY AGAIN, A M E N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Stay in the Word of God, for in them you will find truth.
    Do not be swept away by every wind of doctrine, lest you be swept
    away as by the whirlwind. When listening to any other doctrine, if it
    doesn’t align with the HOLY WORD, then leave it, don’t entertain the
    teaching of any false teacher. Wolfs they are in sheep’s clothing, ready to devour any unsuspecting prey that stumbles into the stall.
    God is no respector of persons, there is neither Jew or Gentile etc.
    No matter who you are from big A to little Adam, if you don’t follow
    Jesus, you will fall. This “replacement theology” is as false as it
    gets, flee from anyone telling you that we have replaced Israel.
    Jesus is coming soon, satan only has a short time left, he is out in
    full force, and will pull any away that will give ear to his wiles, so I say, like Randall, read HIS word, and WATCH! WATCH! WATCH!

    God bless all,
    In HIS light,
    Sandra G.

  464. Jackie Apr 15th 2013

    Interesting Andrew, your response is how I opened my reply – & you removed my comment?

  465. Jackie Apr 15th 2013

    To have responded in the way you did – you did not read what was written.
    This I cannot understand

  466. The way of salvation is beyond question, I won’t repeat. Andrew S what you say can sound like one doesn’t need the bible, just the SPirit. Now thats cukoo land stuff you’ll agree. So then if I read the Bible what part? All of it? Why? I’ll be reading the law! According to you, what for? It’s history.
    How does God write it on our hearts? I have to read it to know it surely, then “from the head to the heart buy the Spirit”.
    Sure, God has “done away” with the OT process of justification for a year, but not the moral “Godly” laws of life…..that it may go well with us…… not killing & stealing from each other
    Maybe were mixed up with which laws are “done away” & which are written on our hearts. maybe this is where some of the confusion is. I embrace the NC absolutely but I love the Law, the Holy SPirit helps me to obey it. If not, then what is He helping me to do. I am just being practical here as I see the NC commands in the NT the same as the ones in the OT. OT dont kill. NT Love your wives. OT don’t steal. NT Submit to leaders. All commands, not suggestions.
    Obedience is paramount in both OT & NT.
    I accept TOTALLY the walk of the Spirit else we have no NC benefits of life in Christ, but the practical outworking of His life in us is obedience to His commands & NONE are done away with (except those in conflict with our salvation in Christ ie the ceremonial stuff & that what covered sin for a year)
    Be Blessed

  467. I think a lot of confusion takes place because we often say the same things differently. It may help if we take a little more time considering what the writer is trying to convey. Especially me, I read very fast & leave out the long ones 🙁

  468. Andrew Apr 15th 2013

    Jackie – Your comment was extremely long. Please do not paste entire articles into the Comments.

    Sorry and blessings,


  469. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    As we all know, very few “jews” believe Jesus is the Messiah…….out of ALL who CLAIM to be Jews.

    As we all know, very few “christians” are born again……out of ALL who CLAIM to be Christians.

    If what people claim is true, that ALL JEWS (which of course we know that NOT ALL BLOODLINES FROM ABRAHAM ARE OF JUDAH) will be born again in the Last Days……..

    Then why not ALL GENTILES be born again in the Last Days?


    The scriptures tell us that ALL PROMISES OF GOD are OBTAINED BY FAITH ONLY.

    God is the GIVER OF FAITH….IT IS A GIFT.
    Why give the gift of Faith to the APOSTATE JEWS, and not the APOSTATE GENTILES?

  470. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Lightening Storm you are wrong. Abraham kept God’s commandments as I posted yesterday and gave you the scriptures for. Genesis 26:5 BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED ME AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS. Yes, of course he started with faith–that is just the beginning. Let’s not make statements that sound biblical but are not. As I said yesterday–by that verse alone you know there were commandments, laws and statutes long before Moses wrote them down.

    Everyone also neglects COMPLETELY the words of Jesus which couldn’t be more clear–THINK NOT that I have come to abolish the Law…..until HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY…..anyone who teaches that the laws are done away with will be called LEAST IN THE KINGDOM…. (pardon my paraphrasing–this is Matt. 5:17 and following)

    Jesus held Moses in the highest esteem, as did all of the apostles. He’s the only human man EVER to speak with God face to face on a regular basis. He was at the Transfiguration and He may very well be one of the two witnesses. When judgment time comes, THE ARK is brought out. I think a lot of people are gonna have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do. P.S. The overcomers keep the testimony of Jesus AND THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

    In the beginning was the WORD–so we know that Jesus was there at the very beginning–always there–always the physical manifestation of God–who do you think was on the top of Mt. Sanai? If you listen to some of the supposed church fathers, after they failed at witnessing to the Jews, they referred to Him as the evil god of the Jews!!!!! Everyone should do so some reading about church history–they would find an incredible amount of blood on the hands of the church that most definitely didn’t come from Jesus, nor His Spirit, it came from the devil because you cannot do what they did and then call yourself Holy. For Pete sake, I have a problem killing a spider!!!

    I, for one, am a Messianic. In 2004 I prayed to the Father in His Son’s name and asked Him, HOW DO YOU WANT ME TO WORSHIP YOU–I didn’t ask what church I should go to, I only asked that question alone because it has nothing to do with Me and only about Him. I got my answer LOUD AND CLEAR.

    Most Messianics are so overjoyed they are compelled to spread the good news. The truth that was revealed to them and their love for God and their loyalty to Jesus, to walk as He walked, changed their lives incredibly. At the same time, this most awesome truth that ALL OF THE THINGS OF GOD ARE OURS–HIS GLORIOUS FEAST DAYS, HIS GLORIOUS SABBATH, HIS MOST WISE LAWS THAT COVER EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE–AN INSTRUCTION BOOK ON HOW TO LIVE OUR LIVES THAT IS PLEASING TO HIM–THE SAME INSTRUCTION BOOK THAT JESUS USED–WHAT A REVELATION TO SAY THE LEAST. This is in our hearts and this is what we want to share because we’re assuming that any thing that God has for us, every Christian would want to know about it.

    A Judaizer was someone that was trying to get the Gentiles to convert to Judaism in order to be saved. This also would require them to follow all of the additional rules that they ADDED to the Law. That is why Paul was preaching against them.

    Most people on this blog say they worship Jesus, yet they completely ignore HIS WORDS and listen to those of a misunderstood Apostle. Peter clearly warned EVERYONE: 2Peter3:15 “and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters speaking in them of these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You, therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest being carried away by the ERROR OF LAWLESS MEN you fall from your own steadfastness.

    The Pharisees added tons to His law–Jesus was completely opposed to that–HE WAS NOT OPPOSED TO THE COMPLETE UNADULTERATED PURE WORD OF HIS FATHER–and no one should be offended by anything that OUR MOST GRACIOUS FATHER TOOK THE TIME TO GIVE TO US TO INSTRUCT US ON HOW TO LIVE A HOLY LIFE–with the HOLY SPIRIT AS OUR GUIDE.

    THIS IS THE TRUTH AND IT IS SUCH A COMPLETELY JOYOUS THING, so please think before you start to call ANYTHING THAT GOD HAS GIVEN TO US irrelevant.

    As I said, the overcomers in revelation have two major things to their credit–THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS AND THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. So far, the Christians have the testimony of Jesus and the Jews have the commandments of God. According to Revelation, we’re not caught up in the air until He returns, which is after the tribulation. That being the case, becoming an overcomer is what every Christian should be hoping to be.

    Be blessed, pray hard, and Shalom!!!!

  471. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Very, very good question Lightning Storm.

    God has yet to fulfill His time purposes (purposes in time) for Israel & the nations. ie. that He will rule through Israel over the nations of the earth. Israel will then be the `Global Government,` teaching the Nations of God`s ways.

    Isaiah 2: 2 & 3 (& Micah 4: 1 -3)

    In the last days, the mountain of the Lord will be established as the chief…….& all nations will stream to to it. And many peoples
    will come & say,

    `Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, …that He may teach us concerning His ways, & that we may walk in His paths,`

    & He will judge between the nations, & He will render decisions for many people`s;….`

    Also, Zech. 14: 16 – 19

    `And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem …..there will be no rain on them…it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up..`

    Trust in the Lord for His purposes are great & there is time for the nations who go through the tribulation to the Millennium, to yet learn of His ways. (survivors Is. 66: 19) This was God`s plan for Israel, to be that light, to teach the nations about Him.
    (Is. 60: 1 – 3)

    Israel will have King David as their king (Jer. 30: 9) & many priests also to teach the nations God`s ways.(Is. 66: 21)

    The Lord is gracious & full of compassion as we know Lightning Storm. So when the Body of Christ is gone to its eternal setting, then God`s other purposes will continue.

    Keep thinking Lightning Storm, for God is enabling you to ask pertainent questions for us all to learn more of Him & His great purposes.

    Bless you. Marilyn.

  472. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    Roberta, EVERY WORD that comes from the Holy Spirit is LAW. So of course Abraham OBEYED THE HOLY SPIRIT, which His words are the LAW OF GOD.

    But here is where people want to mix apples with oranges.

    Emotional faith is NOT biblical Faith.

    Obeying the Holy Spirit by Faith not only KEEPS ALL the Law, but more than that, IT FULFILLS IT.

    God is Love. The Holy Spirit is God. Agape (DIVINE) Love FULFILLS THE LAW.

    Rom 13:10 NASB
    Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Gal 5:14 NASB
    For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

    Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means “love,” such as in the term s’agapo (Σ’αγαπώ), which means “I love you.” In Ancient Greek, it often refers to a general affection or deeper sense of “true love” rather than the attraction suggested by “eros.” Agape is used in the biblical passage known as the “love chapter,” 1 Corinthians 13, and is described there and throughout the New Testament as sacrificial love. Agape is also used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one’s children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast. It can also be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard. Agape was used by Christians to express the unconditional love of God.

    Humans cannot produce Agape Love. It is DIVINE.
    It is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit, which means the Holy Spirit is the SOURCE of all 9 Fruit. Referring to the Nature of God flowing through us.

  473. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    1 Cor 13….the Love chapter is describing DIVINE LOVE, which is SELFLESS AND UNCONDITIONAL.

    It is the SACRIFICIAL LOVE that the Father had for us when He sacrificed His Son.
    It is the sacrificial Love that Son had for His Father when He obeyed unto death.
    It is the sacrificial Love that we are required to be FILLED UP WITH.

    By Faith, Abraham sacrificed everything for God, even to the point of his BELOVED SON.

    If we look at the book of Hebrews, we can see the sacrifices that were made BY FAITH BY THE OT SAINTS.

  474. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013


    Born again believers have far more than only the testimony of Jesus.
    We have the Holy Spirit INDWELLING US who knows His commandments very well and knows better than any of mankind on how TO APPLY THEM.

    As the Spirit of Grace, He also Empowers, Enables, Equips, and Energizes us to FULFILL THE LAW, which is SUPERIOR to OBEDIENCE.

  475. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Randall– Jesus was with His Father at the very beginning which is when THEY laid out the days–the Sabbath was instituted at creation–not at Sinai (not that it matters, if He said it yesterday it still stands). When Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, he meant that the Sabbath was made so man could rest on THAT day. It is the only commandment that starts with the word REMEMBER and He said that it would last FOREVER.

    Also, remember, when Jesus came, He came to the jews–they all kept the Sabbath without question–it was a no brainer. There was no need to reiterate that. He was always in the temple on the Sabbath or in a synagogue. So were the apostles. He was opposed to the additional 100s of rules that the Pharisees added on to the Sabbath. He kept it purely–doing the work of redemption on that day by teaching and healing.

    In Exodus 3:13-15 God gives His Name, YHWH, and also says that it is what the people should call him. If you look at the beginning of your bible (preface) you will see that the word LORD (whenever it is in all caps) has been inserted and replaces the Name YHWH that is in the Scriptures. This was done because the Jewish people would never speak His name for fear that they would use it in vain. It is called the tetragrammaton. Lord and God are not names–they are titles. Our God has a name. By the way, the Hebrew bible has YHWH in their Scriptures–the Jews just won’t say it–when they see The Name, they just speak the word Adonai (Lord).

    Be blessed.

  476. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    Jesus and the Apostles were in the Temple and synagogue

    Where Jesus WORSHIPS is where He puts His stamp of APPROVAL.

  477. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Lightening Storm–In my last long post–the only part that I was directing to you was the first paragraph. I’m sorry if you thought I was speaking to you only.

    Your responses would leave me to believe that you think anyone who keeps God’s Sabbath and Holy Days doesn’t have the Holy Spirit and as if love and obedience are in any way opposed to the Holy Spirit. The entire plan of redemption is laid out on those days. His first coming He fulfilled the Spring Feasts, and on His second coming He will fulfill the Fall Feast Days. God is still using His calendar. The hebrew word for those days is translated “appointments”. I for one, don’t want to miss out on any of the days He has appointments with us. Unfortunately, when He came the first time and was crucified on Passover, the Jews were expecting Him, but the religious leaders were so stuck in their own knowledge that they missed it. Fortunately, many did not miss it.

    When Peter had his vision in Acts 10, why was he still keeping kosher with his diet? The vision was about entering a Gentile’s house.

    Why was Paul keeping Passover? ……?

    Why did Paul complete the Nazarite vow? …..?

    Why did James have Paul go into the temple? Was it to prove that he was still keeping the Torah? Yes.

    When was the Sabbath changed? Officially around 300 AD, but started to happen around 150 AD–long after the Apostles were dead and men got their hands on things.


  478. Andrew Apr 15th 2013

    I know you mean well, but-

    PLEASE do not bring endless “Sabbath-keeping” arguments on here.

    We all have read the New Testament. It clearly states that “One man considers one day sacred – another considers every day alike. Let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.” (Romans).

    Sabbath keeping is NEVER preached in all the New Testament.

    Romans 14:5 ASV
    “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.”

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  479. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Lightening Storm, can you please define what you call worship in the early church. I just read a commentary that stated their prayers, reading from the Old Testament and preaching Jesus was their definition of worship. They did this in the Temple, in the synagogues and in homes. People that are on fire for the Lord do it anywhere and everywhere.

  480. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    The context of which you speak is about fasting. It didn’t matter which day you chose to fast. They would “humble” themselves which means fasting.

    Sabbath keeping didn’t need to be preached–that’s where the Apostles were and that’s where the people gathered to be preached to. There’s quite a few NT verses that show this plainly.

    If Jesus and the Apostles didn’t uphold the Sabbath, then they wouldn’t have stood a chance of getting one devout Jew to follow them who understood what Remember and Forever means.


  481. Andrew Apr 15th 2013

    Roberta – I have done a very in-depth study on this subject.

    Please do not come on here with the “Sabbath” stuff. Seriously. The New Testament gives you no backing whatsoever. For example-

    Col 2:16-17-
    16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

    And so many others.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  482. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    The entire chapter of Romans 14 is about eating–they used to have a special day that they would fast, but some where not choosing that day, they were choosing another and some were not fasting at all. Some of the brothers were judging each other because they weren’t fasting and the “official” day. Paul was saying that there really wasn’t an official day for this, it was up to each persons own conscience.

  483. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Andrew, The verse of which you speak means the exact opposite. Some of the believers in Colossians were going back to their pagan ways, which included self-made religion, self abasement, severe treatment of the body, etc. they were gnostics and some of the believers were being persuaded to return this austere lifestyle. Paul was telling them to be strong and not to let anyone judge them with respect to keeping God’s Holy Days. Especially since they were a shadow of things to come–things which haven’t happened yet. God’s Holy days–His calendar–His Second Coming.


  484. Andrew Apr 15th 2013

    Sadly that is nonsense, Roberta. As was your “interpretation” of Rom 14.

    I just quoted Col 2. Notice how much you have to “twist” it to get what you want.

    Please – you have nothing backing you in the NT at all.

    Time to leave it alone.

    Bless you!


  485. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    The entire context of Romans 14 is food–to eat or not to eat, the word Sabbath is never mentioned.

    Col 2 is not twisted, sorry you disagree.

    I will leave it alone. I’m sad that this is not an open forum to discuss what is written in the word of God.


  486. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Lightning Storm

    You may want to look back a few comments to where I answered your question-

    `Then why not all Gentiles be born again in the last days?`

    Hope that helps. Marilyn.

  487. Andrew Apr 15th 2013

    Roberta – You have had your say

    But that topic is “endless” with no profit in it

    Thanks for understanding

    Bless you!


  488. As the Spirit of Grace, He also Empowers, Enables, Equips, and Energizes us to FULFILL THE LAW, which is SUPERIOR to OBEDIENCE.

    Will whoever wrote this like to explain what you mean?
    I have always understood that grace, empowerment, enabling etc was for the purpose of obedience. Not only to do what we can do even without God, but now we can be obedient to do even the miraculous in His name.
    It enables us to be obedient where we couldn’t be before. It motivates our obedience from the heart.
    Isn’t it all the same…..obedience
    The charismatic way (im a charismatic) is sometimes expecting God to do everything. We have an attitude of “do it to me Lord”.
    I don’t believe God will do what I can do.
    For me, obedience is the key to any form of relationship with God. Without it we got nothing. Walking in the Spirit is not opposed to obedience.
    IIf we think that now the commands are written on our hearts I can relax n do nothing, were in a daydream.
    Work it out with fear & trembling brother. If God took out the lawnmower engine & put in a ferrari motor, the mower better wake up, the engine still needs wheels & a frame 🙂

  489. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    It become more clear to me that whenever we go too far astray of the basics of the gospel, that’s when divisions and arguments arise……and sometimes the Lord may show different things in His word to different people, just out of relationship with Him, or having to do with one’s own particular calling, or for prayer, for God’s own purposes in other words, but not necessarily to be taught and preached as doctrine to everyone. Though I think we can share between ourselves, as a matter of interest or to share discernment etc, but only when it doesn’t cause disputes, not as doctrine, if that makes sense.

    For example, nobody really “needs” to know what God has planned for the future concerning Israel, it has no bearing on TODAY is the day of salvation. Everybody will either die or be caught up before the “future” gets here anyway, so what is needed for everyone, Jew and Gentile, is the GOSPEL that saves…while it is yet today. The message I get from the scriptures is that each one be fully persuaded in their own mind and follow their own conscience, obey what you are fully persuaded the Holy Spirit is leading you to do (examples in scripture where the apostles kept certain requirements of the Law so as to not offend the Jews they were trying to evangelize)………..but we are clearly told don’t go troubling the minds of others…….as per Acts 15.

  490. Kitty, now i understand where you are coming from 🙂

  491. Roberta Apr 15th 2013

    Acts 15 says that Gentiles will abstain from the four things outlined and then the next sentence says–“for Moses is preached from ancients days in the cities on every Sabbath”—-which means, Gentiles, don’t do these four things, for now–you will hereafter, learn Moses on the Sabbath, we don’t expect you to learn it overnight, but over time, so don’t be troubled.

  492. Again Marilyn,

    You say above,

    Israel will have King David as their king (Jer. 30: 9) & many priests also to teach the nations God`s ways.(Is. 66: 21)

    The Lord is gracious & full of compassion as we know Lightning Storm. So when the Body of Christ is gone to its eternal setting, then God`s other purposes will continue.

    The Lord Himself – Jesus Christ – will reign from the Throne of his father David on earth, from Jerusalem during the thousand years – not some regent called “King David”…

    And the Body of Christ – all who have come to faith in Jesus Christ will reign with Him…

    As the scripture has said…

    Love in the Lord,


  493. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    Roberta, the scripture doesn’t say, ‘don’t be troubled’, rather it says that some were doing the troubling:

    Act 15:24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

  494. Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    “to whom we gave no such commandment”


  495. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    Amen Ken1

  496. Watchful 🙂

  497. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    “subverting your souls”

    1) to pack up baggage in order to carry it away to another place
    a) to move one’s furniture (when setting out for some other place)
    2) of an enemy
    a) dismantling, plundering
    3) of a place
    a) to overthrow, ravage destroy towns lands etc.
    4) to turn away violently from a right state, to unsettle, subvert

  498. I am curious, what did Jesus in His own words say about Gentile Believers following the Way, as compared to Jewish Believers following the Way? Did He say anything about this, or are most of the recorded words from the Apostles?

  499. Kitty, the Church (The Mystery) was revealed through one man (Paul)

    Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    “but by the revelation of Jesus Christ”

    Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    “immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood”

    Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (KJV)

    “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men”

    So Paul is the Authority to the Church

    Even Peter struggled with some things that Paul was saying –

    2 Pet 3:16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [g]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures. (AMP)

    “There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand”


  500. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    Kitty, I’m not aware of any distinction, there is only one Way, one gospel, one Saviour for both Jew and Gentile. I know how easy it is to be led afield by our natural curiosity, instead let the Holy Spirit guide our reading and meditations and He will keep us safely in His own green pastures. Taking every natural thought captive. blessings to you..

  501. Roberta, respectively pointing out that Romans 14 from verses 1 through 4 includes into the topic being discussed, eatables, days, and judging thy brothers. Than it basically goes on to say, leave them alone who are following Jesus Christ in their hearts according to their understandings and faith…don’t cause them to stumble, but respect them. Than it goes on to say:

    17=For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    18=For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

    19=Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

    22=Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth

  502. OneBody Apr 15th 2013

    We may always labor to understand the aspects of the law/the old/the new. I desire to know and love what God loves. We all do. We shall delight in being in His Presence, and learning in full, what we have glimpses of here. I love everyone here, and know we all long for the complete knowledge of these things. So many views, yet one Body! I am very simple, and must view things simply. Basic word pictures help me understand concepts better.

    Romans 7:22 For I [the new nature] delight in the law of God after [because of] the inward man [the new nature]:

    What causes the new man delight, causes the old man despair:

    What has become freedom to the one, becomes bondage to the other. The nature of the lawbreaker has been changed to a lover of the law. The law has not changed in character or intent, it’s the rebel heart which has been changed. This new heart, views the law differently. Her breaking purpose accomplished within, -broken, he loves her. He is ever in her debt. He knows only freedom, where he knew only bondage. How can he hate her? I no longer hate this law which long bound me, how can this be? He has found love and ‘delight’ in what he once hated. He is free because his nature has changed from rebel to lover.



    Ephesians 4:1 -6 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
    Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
    Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    God bless you all 🙂

  503. Ken1, I believe that the Mystery is far beyond and greater than just the Church. I think you will throw stones…pebbles 😉 at me for what I am next going to say, but Paul was a man, and not yet perfect, as he, himself admitted to. As much as any of us love Jesus Christ we are still not perfect and at times say things that are contrary to God’s understandings. I don’t follow man as an authority, unless everything he says lines up perfectly with what God says. I take to heart what Jesus, and those men whom God specifically chose to speak His words concerning certain topics, or those men, like John, who He chose to reveal special things to. Paul at times was speaking about what God revealed to him, and those times are obvious. At other times he was speaking from irritations, such as when he spoke about it would be best that men not marry so they could follow the Lord totally without other responsibilities. I fear that the Vatican has also used that idea to pervert God’s words. In the Old Testament, it was required that a priest be married. Man needs the balance of woman and woman needs the balance of man.

  504. Roberta, is not the highest form of worship….LOVE?

    And, after that one tends to try to serve according to their best understandings the one they love, and the ones He loves.

    Love is also the motivation that makes the lover seek to know every aspect of the one they love.

    Why did Jesus talk so much about the heart?

  505. Naa, i won’t throw stones or pebbles at you 🙂

    I agree Paul was a man and not perfect but he was chosen to reveal instruction/doctrine to the Church as can be seen in the scriptures i quoted 🙂


  506. Roberta, totally agree with you on the Sabbath, it was never taken away and will be honored in the Mellinnium also. Man needs that day to recharge his batteries by plugging out of the world and into the LORD, alone with the LORD. Best place to keep the Sabbath, deep in the woods or on top of a mountain somewhere.

    However, that is between each individual believer and God. We should not judge others because of keeping it or not keeping it. Jesus Christ is the ultimate Sabbath, the one that gives us eternal Sabbath Rest in Him. No one can righteously say that it is wrong to keep the Sabbath, nor can another force one to keep it if they believe that Jesus totally fullfilled the Sabbath.

    God will understand and set us on the right path in the Mellinnium when He is with us….because we followed the understanding of our Fatih.

  507. Jackie, consider that the Mellinnium is the Kingdom gateway where perfect teaching occurs for 1,000 years.

    That gateway can be entered by the flesh body, because when Christ returns, all knees will bow down, and, the Mellinnium is for them, where every word taught is first hand, He is there to back it up, it will not be just our limited understandings of the Word. The Saints will be there, one mind with Christ, healing, teaching, whatever is needed…the right hand of Jesus…..already Born Again. Because He is there, there will be no compromises (that is what the iron rod stands for that is in His hand when He is symbolized as returning in Revelations.). No more misunderstandings, it will be black and white….no grey areas, everyone on the same page. Iron rod…..inflexible.

    The forever KINGDOM comes at the end of the Mellinnium when this zone is united once again with God’s zone, timeless, forever, and when the final judgement has taken place, all evil has been destroyed, …..and…..all clay bodies who did not follow the dragon when he was unbound for the last hour of testing in the Mellinnium (40 years?) who remained loyal to the King of Kings Jesus Christ, will than be Born Again….given their Spiritual Bodes, that are like Jesus Christ’s and like the bodies the Saints received prior to the Mellinnium (which were born again at the twinkling that occurs….man calls it the rapture….when those of faith not based on proof were transformed before the Wrath preceeding the Mellinnium.

    That is the TRUE born again experience. We, while we are here on earth can only have Faith, not until we are transformed do we become the New Creation/Restored in Christ. That is when our innoculation with the Holy Spirit (when we accepted Jesus Christ as our LORD) within our clay bodies, brings forth the fully developed NEW BORN existence into the Eternal Kingdom of God. Just like the sperm cell innoculates the egg cell to create the clay body that we live in here on earth. Only it is our spirt that the Holy Spirit innoculates. That is why Jesus Christ sent back the Holy Spirit to be with us….so that we could be born again. Those that died will be transformed when their spirits are resurrected from their Holding place (not the grave). (opinion/understanding) Those that are alive when Christ commences His harvest, will be born again while they are still alive. When we accept Jesus Christ as our LORD we have begun the “pregnancy” that will result in our New Birth from Above. The Holy Spirit does that for us….besides being our Teacher while here on earth, battling for our attention because of all the distractions of the World. In the meantime, we grow and develop under the Holy Spirit, waiting for our New Birth, submitting our will to His.

    This TRUE Born Again experience cannot be faked, and has nothing to do with the dogma of mankind, and is totally out of the hands of any human, other than the human that is being Born Again. It is totally between our Lord and the Believer. (my opinion)

    That is how I understood the words written in the Bible.

  508. Ken1. Thank you for being kind to me. Yes, It will be revealed, and we will all accept the unquestioning authority of our LORD, over our own understandings when we next see Him.

  509. Thank you, Watchful and Ken1 for responding to my question. Appreciate it.

  510. Jackie, I used the word “gateway” for the Mellinnium in my above post.

    More accurate to what I was trying to express would be the chamber between the two locked gates, both of which you have to go through if you are entering a prison. That chamber is where you would be searched, and deemed acceptable to enter through the second gate. I view the Mellinnium of 1,000 years as that chamber before the final gate is opened unto God’s Kingdom Eternal. The Chamber where what those who are allowed into it think or understand is totally irrevelant. They will be told exactly how it is, exactly the meanings of everything. Iron rod rule. Those who submit their will to the Will of God, will be allowed to go through the second gate. Than the chamber is remade, taken away, changed and becomes One with God’s Kingdom.

  511. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Wow! I was away for a ” day of rest” (lol) and what a discussion!!
    Kitty regarding the glorified body we will possess on the earth for eternity future on this earth after Jesus returns:
    Therefore it says, “W hen H e ascended on high, H e led captive a host of captives, A nd H e gave gifts to men.” (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10 NASB)

  512. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Sorry Kitty it copied the wrong verse- let’s try that again:
    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. (Philippians 3:20, 21 NASB)

  513. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Good morning my dear friend in the Lord, Andrew J. Horton.

    As you said you are going to follow me. That`s fine, but any one can jump up & down & yell `deception, deception.` I appreciate it is difficult for you. However if you truely have a heart to show me the truth, & others reading. then you need to stop `huffing & puffing,` & address the scriptures I`ve given you.

    We both know & need to –
    `not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 24 & 25)

    So with our concern for the truth my desire is for you to teach me & others reading this, where those scriptures I gave you are wrong.
    `My hope…my citizenship,…my inheritance…is in heaven.`
    (Phil. 3: 20, Col. 1: 5, 1 Peter 1: 4)

    Also you need to address Jer. 30: 9 (King David as Regent)
    & where does God say the Body of Christ is on earth in the Millennium,
    & why the Lord Jesus Christ should rule the Universe & realms beyond from His footstool.

    Our desire here is to learn what God would have us to know so we wont be deceived. You need to address what I`ve presented
    if you are to have any credibility on this topic. Otherwise we can just go back & forth to no ones advantage & its just
    `quarrelsome.` (2 Tim. 2: 23)

    Looking forward to your explaination of these scriptures etc.

  514. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Thank you Barry Schmidt for that confirmation. Just read you post.
    `Our citizenship is in heaven.` (Phil. 3: 20) What a glorious promise.

  515. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Kitty – regarding our eternal and immortal body and what it will be like:
    Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (1 John 3:2, 3 NASB)

    While we dont know EVERYTHING about our future glorified sate of being God does not want us ignorant of the future heavenly body altogether because the knowledge of this hope is critical to our present purity. Beleivers who are not heaven centred remain defiled by being too worldly centred.

    Every saint having a through knowledge and hope of their future glory every true apostles primary burden. Look at Paul’s apostolic burden here:
    that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:17, 18 NASB)

  516. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Marylin and Kitty: the best books on heaven in existence today are written by Randy Alcorn. I post the link to some reviews on his books on heaven her.
    They are a must read for any serious student of what heaven will be like, how heaven’ s permanent future location will be on the earth. He gives the most exhaustive list of Bible passages on heaven and the most biblically credible teaching on heaven I have ever seen ( I have been exposed to hundreds of volumes on heaven) .

  517. randall’s posts are most clear and most productive, if you have ears to hear. Arguing scripture and you end up dividing scripture, as example: Kitty you are talking about Paul, the human. When He talked about marriage, he quickly added he was ‘speaking’ from himself??? How this caused imbalance within the Catholic church is blamed on Paul? We decide anything at our own peril, organization, or individually.
    All doctrine is weighed on Bible intrepretation.(by man). Since I’m not Catholic, I do not know their doctrine(s), but do know knowledge thrives on all logical deduction and woe is me. The only perfect man who walked this earth is Jesus, our Christ. All His disciples He chose, for a reason, even Peter,Thomas, and especially Judas, is not ours to ponder in depth, unless one is too nosy for their own good. Then us ole ones just say, “stop it”, curousity killed the cat.

  518. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Re: the covenant of Sinia (The Law) vs. the New and everlasting Covenant

    For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. When He said, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:7, 13 NASB)

    What more proof do you legalists want that the Law of Moses HAS BEEN RPELACED AND HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH AND HAS BECOME OBSOLTE!

    When the writer of the book of Hebrews stated “it is about to disappear” what in God’s name do you think he was referring to? He was referring to the Covenant of Sinia which is the Law of Moses!

    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Galatians 3:24, 25 NASB)

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4 NASB)

    Just in case you legalists are still not convinced “you are dull to understand because you are weak in your natural selves” read the above verses again. They say what they mean and they mean what they say!
    Now that faith in Christ has come we are NO LONGER UNDER THE TUTOR OF THE LAW!
    Now that we have come to Christ the LAW HAS ENDED!

    What don’t you people understand about the BIBLE words:

  519. OneBody Apr 15th 2013

    Barry, Re: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to
    Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Galatians 3:24, 25 NASB)

    The question being: so exactly, do we believe we must hate the tutor/ messenger who has brought us to a place of such great blessings in Jesus Christ? I am in no way, beneath the law. Nor do I feel a need to despise it.

  520. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Just in case anyone tries to squirm out from under those verses and argue that it was only the ceremonial law that has been replaced, become OBSOLTE and has ended and that the Ten Commandments remain as the Christians divine legislation :

    So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. (Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB)

    Clearly Moses himself says that the Covenant of Sinai WAS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!

    It is THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS which were the essence of the Old Covenant have been replaced by the New Covenant –

  521. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    One Body: Christ IN US REPLACES THE LAW! The Law was an impersonal tutor. It now we have a PRESENT PERSONAL INDWELLING PARENT who by his grace tells what to do, motivates us to do His righteous and holy will, empowers us to carry out His will and actually by grace OBEYS his own commands in and through us.

    Why would I need to love the impersonal tutor when I can love the personal present PARENT???

  522. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    We who have been released from the Law of Moses do not despise the Law of Moses as you suppose. Love is the fulfillment of the Law of Moses. Jesus in us not only loves to love but he loves God and neighbour more fully, deeply and sincerely than anyone ever loved under the Law of Moses ( kept and loved the Law of Moses)

    Why do you legalists always want to accuse us who are no longer subject to the Law of Moses of being less holy, righteous and loving or of loving God’s commands less that you?

    You who demand that people adhere to the Law of Moses but fail to adhere to it yourselves???

  523. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Some people ask me why I come out swinging over this issue. The answer is because men’s eternal destinies are at stake over what they believe regarding the Law of Moses. How We believe we are made holy and are sanctified DETERMINES OUR SALVATION and not merely our lifestyle preferences:

    I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Galatians 1:6-9 NASB)

    You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. (Galatians 5:4, 9, 10 NASB)

    Those who insist on staying right with God by keeping the Law of Moses are in very serious danger!

    I would rather offend someone into heaven than placate and please them into Hell!

  524. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013


    Jesus fulfilled the Law. Love fulfills the Law.

    When we are born again our spirit is regenerated to no longer OUTWARDLY OBEY THE LAW BY OUR WILL AND MIND, but is now CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF JESUS, Who is Love.

    Through the process of sanctification and purification, the next thing to be CONFORMED is our Minds….to the IMAGE OF JESUS, Who is Love.

    BEING LIKE the Man Jesus INTERNALLY and FULFILLING THE LAW OUT OF LOVE, is far superior than the carnal man OBEYING the Law by the strength of his WILL and MIND.

    This is the difference between BECOMING LIKE THE MAN JESUS and IMITATING JESUS.

  525. OneBody Apr 15th 2013

    Barry, my very precious brother in Christ. My intent isn’t to challenge God’s workings within your heart. Re: Why would I need to love the impersonal tutor when I can love the personal present PARENT???

    How can I truly love Jesus Christ apart from loving what he loves?
    If we love the Giver, do we cease to love his gifts because he is greater than the gifts he gives?

    Mt. 5:19 “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven”

    I do agree with you. He is both the desire and empowering which REPLACES THE LAW. The ordinances against the rebellious old man do not reside over the victorious new man. Jesus in us the hope/expectation of glory! We no longer need to live beneath the dictates of a nature opposed to God, for Jesus has overcome sin in his fulling to fullest and overflowing in obedience to God on our behalf. How it thrills our souls to learn from so many deeply spiritual members here. I am so thankful for all who have shared their insight and wisdom in areas varying to all. Fragment by fragment, we all have truth he has given us. One-day perhaps we shall fit them all together to understand him in full, as he does us. This is my favorite older hymn. Love it dearly. Be blessed in His great love and favor!

    Daniel W. Whittle, Mem­oirs of Phil­ip P. Bliss

    Free from the law, O happy condition,
    Jesus has bled and there is remission,
    Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
    Grace hath redeemed us once for all.

    Once for all, O sinner, receive it,
    Once for all, O brother, believe it;
    Cling to the cross, the burden will fall,
    Christ hath redeemed us once for all.

    Now we are free, there’s no condemnation,
    Jesus provides a perfect salvation.
    “Come unto Me,” O hear His sweet call,
    Come, and He saves us once for all.

    “Children of God,” O glorious calling,
    Surely His grace will keep us from falling;
    Passing from death to life at His call;
    Blesse’d salvation once for all.

  526. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    Carnal does not mean immoral. Carnal means NOT IN LINE WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Walking by the Flesh.

    The Law is for the Fleshly/Carnal man who refuses to walk by Faith in the Holy Spirit.
    God gave the Written Laws to the carnal Israelites because of their resistance to enter into the Presence of God and be transformed as Moses was on Mt Sinai.
    They refused to obey the Spirit of the Law by Faith, so they had to be SHOWN the Law so they would understand they chose to go the hard way.

    The OT SAINTS walked by Faith and the Spirit and the Voice of God.
    The carnal Israelites walked by the flesh and the Law.
    The Law was meant to bring them to repentance and the Spirit of God….it was also meant to reveal their COMPLETE INABILITY TO KEEP ALL THE LAW.
    For if you break JUST 1, you have broken them ALL.

    The NT SAINTS walk by Faith and the Spirit and the Voice of God.
    The carnal NT believers walk by the flesh and the Law.
    The Holy Spirit is given to bring repentance and transformation.

    Both OT Saints and NT Saints were TRANSFORMED INWARDLY to Love the Lord their God with ALL their heart, soul, mind, strength, by their Faith and the Holy Spirit.

    The Law is used as a TUTOR to show mankind their utter inability to please God and to conform themselves to the Image of Jesus.

    TUTOR means TEACHER.
    Who is our TEACHER now?

    Jhn 14:26 NASB
    “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you ALL things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    1Jo 2:27 NASB
    As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing TEACHES you about ALL things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    We no longer need the Law to teach/tutor us if we ABIDE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. (Walk by Faith in the Holy Spirit)

  527. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    Actually….I should have written in the my last post:

    Carnal is NOT IN SUBMISSION/surrendered TO THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
    Walking by the Flesh.

  528. Hi Marilyn,

    If you read all the responses which I’ve given you on this thread to date along with the one I posted on the “Rob Bell” thread ( which I re-quote below (in italics) then you’ll see that I’ve answered conclusively from scripture why (a) Jesus is going to reign from the throne of His father David from Jerusalem for the thousand years, (b) we His Body – His Bride – every single believer in Jesus since the very first one – are going to reign with Him in our glorified bodies for these thousand years & (c) why the New Jerusalem is the place which Jesus has been preparing for us – coming out of heaven from God – as our eternal dwelling place after these thousand years…

    Hi Marilyn,

    After the thousand years the present heavens and earth are destroyed by fire and New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God – this is our Eternal Resting Place – New Jerusalem – this is what Jesus is preparing for us (I go to prepare a place for you) – a room (each) in the many rooms of New Jerusalem after we reign with Him on earth for the thousand years…

    Love in the Lord,


    Love in the Lord,


  529. OneBody Apr 15th 2013

    Lightening Storm .. Very good! Thankyou!

  530. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    The Carnal Levi priests made the Law into a religion…Judaism.

    They were so wrapped up in practicing their religion and taking pride in their ABILITY to practice this religion they did not even notice that the PRESENCE OF GOD LEFT THE TEMPLE. Nor did they care.

    Their religion gave them POWER AND CONTROL over people and their entire Kingdom of Judea/Judah.

    At the same time, the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), there was no temple……they worshiped Elohim wherever He was Present.
    There place of worship was at Bethel, where God met them.
    Of course we know that the Kingdom of Israel went back and forth committing the same sins as the Kingdom of Judah, which is why both kingdoms were enslaved by other nations.
    But, to my knowledge right now, the Kingdom of Israel/Samaria did not practice Judaism.

    They worshiped as Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac did.
    Their forefathers.

  531. Lightning Storm Apr 15th 2013

    They worshiped as Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac did.
    Their forefathers of FAITH.

  532. When Peter had his vision in Acts 10, why was he still keeping kosher with his diet? The vision was about entering a Gentile’s house.

    Why was Paul keeping Passover? ……?

    Why did Paul complete the Nazarite vow? …..?

    Why did James have Paul go into the temple? Was it to prove that he was still keeping the Torah? Yes.

    When was the Sabbath changed? Officially around 300 AD, but started to happen around 150 AD–long after the Apostles were dead and men got their hands on things.

    question one. Because it was in PETERS conscious
    to not eat meat that was unclean according to the law.
    THUS if he does eat meat TO HIM IT IS SIN.
    BUT paul made clear………i am persuaded that all things are clean, HOWEVER this is not in all mens conscisous.
    THUS in front of them we eat NO MEAT PEROID.
    we have liberty………ONLY WOUND NOT THE WEAK conscious or you sin .
    because JESUS is the PASSOVER lamb
    which the first passover was always leading to.
    ANIMAL blood cannot make one clean as pertaining to the conscious, HOWEVER all things were done according to the pattern of the MOUNT SEEN in heaven,
    however they were done in tabernacles made by mens hands
    WHEREAS CHRIST………..ENTERED INTO THE TRUE TABERNACLE , that moses had seen and copied by the hand of men, YET JESUS entered into the TRUE tabernacle.
    NOT to mention. PAUL always said to the JEW , i live as does a jew
    number three.
    TO show the jews that HE AINT BREAKING THE LAW .
    IT wasnt BECAUSE HE HAD TOO, he did what he did
    for the sake of all still under the law,
    so as to win them to CHRIST. ONE cannot approach a jew
    and try to win them by OPPOSING , but by being as them
    in the sense of keeping the law, yet KNOWING in himself
    SIMPLE LOVE FULLFILLS the law, and in time he could TEACH them this. BUT FIRST HE HAD TO WIN THEM TO CHRIST.
    as far as the sabbath goes………..WORHIP on the day
    at hand. IF one man believes or esteems every day alike
    STILL worship with those on their day.
    IF a man wants to set another day as MORE HOLY
    celebrate it with him.
    BUT dont let no man JUDGE another

  533. THE passover is a day i would celebrate with any JEW
    for indeed he did keep them from death on that night.
    BUT i know MY PASSOVER………….
    and in the time to COME…………………….HE WILL SHEILD my from the death of all who loved NOT THE TRUTH
    for i am hidden in CHRIST and HIS BLOOD is my atonement for all sins. amen.
    the PASSOVER…………………….
    which saves the SOUL………………
    the sacrifical LAMB………………the PASSOVER lamb
    IS JESUS. and on this i stake my LIFE. amen.

  534. NOT all men have the same faith.
    SOme with a weak conscious eat ONLY HERBS………
    THE abstaining from meat CAN INDEED be a GOOD THING
    for it is a WILLFULL act of worship, denying the flesh.
    BUT LET NO MAN JUDGE he who eats
    BOTH do as unto the LORD.
    one eats , blesses, to him it is clean
    another has not this in his conscious
    thus if i was eating with a brother who didnt have this
    in his conscious, and then he was atcually emboldned to eat that meat…….NOT ONLY WOULD HE SIN, DUE to HIS CONSCIOUS,
    I WOULD SIN for i wounded his weak conscious.
    SO to all who believe not to eat pork………BY ALL MEANS DONT
    but by all means DONT JUDGE those who do.
    the HOLY spirit aint about meats, etc…………
    Meats for the belly etc………..
    AM I DOING what is best for the WELFARE of the other…….
    or am i letting my meat become a stumblilng block to the weak.
    THUS , eat no flesh while the other be about.
    MANS belly should NEVER overlook anothers conscious.
    DONT eat them CHOPS in front of one who believes he cant.
    Worship on the day the other holds, knowing inyourself
    you may esteem every day alike.
    KEEP and do all for the sake of the OTHER. amen.

  535. PS i aint talking bout SIN or transgressions………
    this is meats , days, etc……….
    SIN is still sin. WE dont live like a heathen and sin as they do to win them to JESUS. that is death and death abundantely.
    LOVE fullfills the law………….IT DONT TRANSGRESS IT.
    amen. MOST of us……….were gentiles………..
    so why go and try and live by the traditions of the jews.
    SIMPLY dont transgress the law.
    AND walking IN LOVE in the SPIRIT
    fullfills that. TIS in us………the HOLY SPIRIT.
    or some of us. I worry for a few.
    for some hold to guns and would defend themselves or family.
    SOMETHING bad wrong on that.
    FOR who agrees that JESUS is far greater than all of us,
    than our sons , daughters, mothers etc………
    WELL we all should agree.
    SO, heres a good example. IF WHEN DEFENDING THE GREATEST ever, JESUS, peter was TOLD………..YOU LIVE BY THE SWORD you DIE BY THE SWORD.
    well GOD IS IN CONTROL……………..when anyones time is up
    ITS UP. IF not GOD WILL GIVE a way OUT.
    WHEN ones time is up………..IT IS BECAUSE GOD HAD DECIDED the time is up. DONT PICK UP A GUN TO DEFEND ANYONE. Rather pray the one forgiven.
    HE who loves FATHER, MOTHER< son or daughter MORE THAN ME……… NOT WORTHY OF ME.
    and JESUS said give place to wrath.
    scenarios are always there for those who want to justify themselves. ITS how the devil works………
    and know GOD is in control of all things.
    prescious in the sight of GOD is the death of all saints
    and for those of a maryters death………..what a more eternal weight of glory awaits………… be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. GODS TIME aint our linear time.

  536. Roger (NZ) Apr 15th 2013

    Amen Randall,

    Mat 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Love your neighbour and share Christ Jesus, our crucified and risen again, Lord, and God..

  537. yall want to hear something ……..
    HERE i am preaching we should not resist evil, even pray for those who kill us or persecute us……….
    YET am considered as DANGEROUS one to watch
    by the STATE as an extremists………
    well i am an extremists……….I GO TO THE EXTREME
    of not harming anyone , even the worst of mine enemies i pray only forgivness for………
    YET i am a potential terroist, who in short time
    will be hunted as one who is evil, by those who preached tolerance, yet knew not the word.
    whose LOVE will not forgive their enemies but rather KILL all who oppose them. IF you all dont know by NOW
    we about to be BETRAYED……………BEHOLD our betrayer is coming……..and with HIM STRONG DELUSION to unite the world in peace and unity and scourge the earth of all WHO WONT DENY JESUS as only way. ITS coming.

  538. YET having this knowlege of the coming betrayal
    ONLY PEACE……….
    PEACE………………… fear…………….just joy in CHRIST.
    amen. for whether i am killed or still standing at the END
    amen. heart above……………….PEACE ensues
    which passes all understanding.

  539. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD to those who LOVE GOD………who wait upon the LORD.
    the END…………..its all about the END reward……….
    this life is but a vapour that soon shall pass away………..
    BUT eternity………………..WHO can measure THAT.
    A heart above on HIS PROMISE…………..
    all affections above on HIM…………..
    O what JOY to KNOW the LORD,
    what peace abounds.
    To prasie the LORD, to sing unto HIM
    to give thanksgiving………….IS TREASURE UNTOLD……
    TO HAVE THE JOY OF GODS salvation……….
    is a JOY no circumstance can take away………
    for even in the loss of all things, harships, trials , afflictions,
    THIS joy and PEACE shall endure amen.
    man can take al from me………..
    so be it……………BUT HE CANNOT take me FROM GODS HAND………SO i sing , SO I SING…………ALL GLORY IS DUE MY KING…………. PRAIES THE LORD. amen.

  540. KittyApr 15th 2013 Thank you, Watchful and Ken1 for responding to my question. Appreciate it.

    Your very welcome Kitty

    Blessings to you.

  541. Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


  542. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    praise you Jesus, Son of the Living God, help us Lord and make us more like you, amen.

  543. Beautiful scripture Ken… 🙂

    Praise You Jesus… 🙂

    You are Worthy… 🙂

    And You will reign…

  544. Amen watchful, Make us more like You Jesus – Emmanuel, God with us… 🙂

  545. Richard Savage Apr 15th 2013

    A most disconcerting, even worrying, element emerges from this thread. The fashion of Western Christians to so glibly criticise the Children of Israel, and principally the tribe of Judah, for their practices as given us in the OT and very partially in the NT.

    The OT is a written record of the self revelation of God to a peculiar people, the Hebrews, a people He sovereignly chose as His own, not for their merit, but because He chose them. In criticising the people of this so very public record, of how they reacted to God’s revelation of Himself, how they failed Him so many times, we set ourselves above them (a common Western Christian characteristic). And I ask, do we subject Almighty God to such criticism? He chose that people.

    Perhaps, in your righteousness you’re saying, you should have chosen me, me, me.

    Spiritual pride, perhaps?

    But I ask you, as a Christian Jew, would you have been so much better? Is your walk with Christ Jesus so pure, so perfect as you need no further cleansing from sin? You need no forgiveness? If you were an OT Jewish person, would you be different, without having read the canon? How many of us idolise their car, house, job, their family or their fellowship, even their personal spirituality, or some other idol? How many take enormous pride in their spiritual purity.

    I wonder!

    May I suggest, as we read the OT, and the NT, place yourself in a lowly person’s place; not a prophet or king, not a priest or great leader like Moses, just a man in the desert, a shepherd in the field, a soldier fighting the Phillistines or perhaps the womn at the well.

    We are, as Western Christians, so willing to concede to a church fallacy we are not to judge (actually, that is not a Biblical case), yet so very willing to do as the crowds did when Pilate offered to release Barabbas. Crucify, crucify. Crucifying again a Jew?

    Here is, at least in part, a root of anti-semitism. Christian self righteousness. We have all the answers. No you don’t!!

    In the face of a couple of much earlier posts I say, be careful, be you very careful of the Apple of God’s eye. His Word endures for ever, He doesn’t change. The Jew is still the apple of God’s eye.

    Again I say, the churches, the form of organised religion so very many adhere to, have never learned to deal with a Jew, so much less Jesus the Jew. But it ain’t over yet.

    Again I quote Zechariah 8:23, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    That could be you.

  546. Jews & Followers of Jesus (Yahshua Ha’Mashiach) Are Fellow Heirs & One Nation Under God

    “…I will bring (my) children from the east and gather (them) from the west. I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth― everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:5-7)

    …So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by (His) name… (Acts 15:13-19)

    “My people have been lost sheep…” (Jeremiah 50:6)Jesus said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27)

    …I myself will search for my sheep and look after them…I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel… (Ezekiel 34:11-16)Genesis 48:19 declares that the descendants of Ephraim would become many nations(Gentiles).…The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will bring my people Israel (Including Ephraim) and Judah (Jews) back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 30:1-7)

    Judah’s enemies will be destroyed; Ephraim (fullness of nations who follow Jesus) will not be jealous of Judah (the Jews), nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim. They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west; together they will plunder the people to the east. They will subdue Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them. (Isaiah 11:13-14)I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. (Ezekiel 37:21-23)

    …it has now been revealed…that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel… (Ephesians 2:5-6)

    Christ…has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation…so as to create in Himself one new man from the two…that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross…through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. (Ephesians 2:11-18)

    Romans 11 declares that the Gentiles who follow Jesus are grafted in with the Jews so all Israel will be saved…the LORD…will roar like a lion. When he roars, his children will come trembling from the west. They will come from Egypt, trembling like sparrows, from Assyria, fluttering like doves. (Hosea 11:8-10)Yes! “…God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” (Acts 11:18)

    …is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also… (Romans 3:30)

    …“It was necessary that the word of God…be spoken to (the Jew’s) first; but since (they rejected) it, and (judged themselves) unworthy of everlasting life, (the apostles turned) to the Gentiles. For so the Lord…commanded (them)…’” (Acts 13:42-48)

    …has God cast away His people? Certainly not!… God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew… (Romans 11:1-2)

  547. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Thank you for your reply. Now I am trying to understand from your perspective. So is this what you believe?

    That after the elements are burnt up that there will be no New Heaven & New Earth but that the New Jerusalem is heaven & that heaven, the New Jerusalem comes down to?

    Or is the New Jerusalem filling up all the Universe space? I haven`t grasped what you are saying. Could you explain for me.

    Not understanding you. Marilyn.

  548. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    God will vindicate the Jews, Richard, be comforted……there is mystery in that He had bound them over to disobedience so that we gentiles could receive the gospel……..theirs has been an intercessory role for the whole world and the last two thousand years of Jewish history has not been a waste spiritually speaking ………He has said that unnatural branches will be broken off to make room for the natural branches to be grafted back in……and even now in the falling away we see many of the unnatural branches being broken off…..won’t be long now.

  549. Before “going there” Marilyn, are you now clear that Jesus is going to reign on the throne of His father David from Jerusalem for the thousand years and that we – all who have believed in Jesus (both “pre” and “post” cross) and are the sons and daughters of Abraham by faith – are going to reign with Him? If you’re clear on this – which is the important part of this equation then we can progress to your latest question, which is the city which Abraham was waiting for whose Builder and Architect was God, All the best, Love in the Lord, Andrew

  550. Andrew J Horton Apr 15th 2013 Beautiful scripture Ken…

    Andrew J, they just litterely jumped of the page to me today as i was reading/studying, Praise be His Name.

    Blessings my friend

  551. Praise the Lord Ken, Beautiful… 🙂

  552. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. (Romans 3:1, 2, 9, 19, 21, 22, 28-30 NASB)

    Those verses clearly say the ground is level at the foot of the cross for both Jew and Gentile- both are steeped in rebellion, both put Jesus on the cross, neither have anything to boast in. In the Greek and in the context when it says ” all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God ” it is clear that what God is saying is this: ” BOTH Jew and Gentile have sinned and fall short of the glory of God AND BOTH JEW AND GENTILE ARE FREELY JUSTIFIED THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT CAME BY Christ Jesus.”

    Lets stop all this Gentile against Jew and Jew against Gentile finger pointing.
    Here is what out One God and Father says about us all- Jew and Gentile together as one family and one body:
    Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. A nd H e came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, (Ephesians 2:11-17, 19-21 NASB)
    Amen! Bind us together Lord with cords that cannot be broken in Christ Jesus

  553. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    It is not the Law nor the celebration of feasts nor Sabbath keeping nor celebrating the Passover that binds Jew and Gentile together- it is NOTHING LESS THAN THE BODY AND BLOOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    Nothing else could do it. Until we all gather at the cross we will be at one another’s throats as Gentile and Jew.

  554. Amen Barry… 🙂

  555. Amen again Barry… 🙂

  556. Amen…Watchful


  557. Andrew J 🙂


  558. Amen Barry

    Bles you

  559. Bless*

  560. Barry Schmidt Apr 15th 2013

    1.Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrew but he gave up his claim to fame in that for his identity in Christ. Unlike many Messianic believers today Paul didn’t hang onto any Jewish racial pride WHATSOVER :
    for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, (Philippians 3:3-8 NASB)

    Why do people want to make a big deal out of their race and their ethnicity? One reason only, namely; PRIDE!
    2. God made it clear their was nothing in any of the sons of Abraham that caused Him to choose them. It wasn’t their Jewishness that motivated God to choose them even for the Old Covenant:

    “Do not say in your heart when the Lord your God has driven them out before you, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is dispossessing them before you. It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. “Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people. (Deuteronomy 9:4-6 NASB)

    Why then are there those still who take pride in their Jewishness?
    But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:14, 16 NASB)

  561. Marilyn Crow Apr 15th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    You said `the throne of His father David.`

    The Lord Himself tells us –
    `How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?
    David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
    `The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand until I put Thine
    enemies beneath Thy feet.`
    David himself calls Him `Lord,` so in what sense is He his son?`
    (Mark 12: 35 – 37)

    In Christ`s earthly lineage He was a descendant of David, but the Lord was king of heaven, king of glory, king of the ages, etc long before that. The position of king of the Jews, & king of Israel are but more crowns to His already amazing titles.

    The Lord Jesus Christ`s Father, Father God has seated Him at the highest place of honour, at His right hand on the eternal throne, far above ALL rule & authority & power & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the
    AGE TO COME. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

    I can only bow my knee in awe, wonder & worship. Marilyn.

  562. Fellow christians, i have a question, does anyone else feel an URENTGENCY of the very soon return of the Lord Jesus to rapture His Church? (1 Thess 4:16-17) Please, i am not being funny, or am i pushing the pre trib rapture that i believe in, BUT! do any of you have this feeling in your “bones” so to speak. I know we live by faith and not by sight, or feelings. But there seems to be something Niggling at me and i am wondering is there something Niggling at anyone else?


  563. watchful Apr 15th 2013

    There is always a double standard when it comes to the Jews, I can’t pinpoint why that is, just that I have observed it. Nobody complains when they are attacked or accused, but when they come to their own defense, suddenly there are protests, it is uncanny. But I hope we will read *thoughtfully* what Richard wrote.

  564. Andrew Apr 16th 2013

    I do not believe anyone here has been “critical” of the Jews. Certainly that is not the point of anything being discussed.

    It is mostly the “Hebrew Roots’ doctrines that seek to bring Gentile Christians under bondage that have been critiqued.

    Most of us here love the Jewish people. But that is not where our FOCUS is to be – unless God leads.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  565. Richard Savage,

    Brother, if anyone has spoken anything with ulterior motives, or have attitudes in their hearts. The Lord will deal with these individuals in His time.

    I would not get overly excited when people post on the internet. You have to take everything with a grain of salt.

    What does it matter in the final analysis what everyone thinks as we must all give account to the Lord.

    We are all “sinners” saved by God’s Grace.


  566. Hi again Marilyn,

    You said of me above,

    You said `the throne of His father David.`

    As Ken shared with us above (just adding a few verses either side for context),

    God said (emphasis added),

    Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. For nothing will be impossible with God.” And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:26-38 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  567. Roger (NZ) Apr 16th 2013

    Ken1 – a nearness of the return of Lord Jesus, Yes.

    However, I believe there are a couple of warning signs, that Jesus spoke of, that must be completed/fulfilled first.

  568. Roger (NZ) Apr 16th 2013

    With regard to the creation of New Earth/Heavens, and then the descent of New Jerusalem – this is a copy of the comment I posted on the previous thread:
    This first passage from Rev. explains that the old is passed away, the new is created, and the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven – where God will tabernacle with man.

    Rev 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God…

    These next two passages describe the same city, and that both God the Father and Lord Jesus continue to dwell there.

    Rev 21:22-25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

    Rev 22:2-5 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    In Genesis we read that God created Heaven and Earth, then man – since the cross of crucifixion, God has been recreating man (born-again) and will then re-create Heaven and Earth.

    Was not His intention all along to create somewhere He could fellowship with man..?

    In His love,

  569. Abraham believed God and that faith in God was credited to him as righteousness. (Genesis 15 verse 6.)

    Abram, was originally an idolater, living in a land of idolatry within his father’s house of many gods. For God to intervene in man’s self corruption, He needed one man of humanity to say essentially, “Yes My Lord God, I believe and fully trust in You”. God would call to just such a man, as He told Abram to leave his country and his father’s house of idolatry and journey to a land that God promised to give to Abram and his seed. Abram began to believe and trust in the one God, and because Abram departed his homeland at God’s behest, God would reveal to Abram the extent that He would go in His Covenant promise.

    The Lord God said unto Abram: I AM the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Abram said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? And the Lord God said unto him, Take Me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. And Abram took unto the Lord all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. (See Genesis 15 verse 1 thru 21.)

    The Gospel of faith had its beginnings with Abraham’s faith in the promises of God. Jesus speaking to the Pharisees says: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8 verse 56.) No doubt you will ask, even as I have pursued this question: When did Abraham see the day of the Lord? We postulate in the excellencies of hindsight and with a little experience that that day happened when, as Paul says, the Gospel was first preached to Abram, and he became a man of faith, trusting in God’s Promised Word. (See Galatians 3 verse 8 thru 9.) (Likewise 2 Chronicles 20:7.)

    God put Abram into a deep sleep, and Abram, in the initial horror of that visionary dream state, witnesses the Lord Himself present Himself as that Covenant security to the promise that He had made to Abram. Abram’s lineage seed would bring forth the solitary seed of a woman of like faith, and that ovum would be impregnated with the Word and Seed of the Lord God Almighty, Who would crush the head and will of Satan, thereby fulfilling not only His Word given in the garden fall of Adam but also through that Holy Seed, the Life promises made to Abram and his seed. So then, in the horror of the darkness of his sleep, Abram saw the Son of God, Who was speaking to him, becoming in the Almighty’s protective and appropriate time, the Son of Man from Abram’s very seed of promise, being crucified to death, and then, in all probability, witnessed his Lord as a lifeless corpse in the grave, only to rejoice in the gospel’s good news of the glorious bodily resurrection of His Lord, the pre-incarnate Christ of God. The Covenant of Promise is further confirmed in Abram’s heart when the Smoking Furnace and the Burning Lamp together pass between the animal pieces. For the sake of lost mankind, a covenant of promise is sealed between Father God Almighty (the Smoking Furnace) and the Son of God (the Burning Lamp), Who would represent the Son of Adam as the seed of Abraham. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. The Lord said not, and to seeds as many; but as of one: And to thy Seed, Which is Christ. (See Galatians 3 verse 16 thru 18.)

    Note: Some theologians have speculated that the smoking furnace and the burning lamp preformed the figure of infinity ∞ when they passed between the dead carcasses, and that also an oath was sworn at that time concerning the promises of faith. (See Zechariah’s prophecy to Mary in Luke 1 verse 72 thru 73, and then Genesis 12 verse 3.) For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater He swore by Himself. In the prophecy of Scripture we witness the Truth speaking: Then said I, in the volume of the book it is written of Me, to do thy will, O God. In the Garden the Lord God said to Satan: I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed: her Seed shall bruise thy head, and you shall bruise His heel. (See Hebrews 10 verse 4 thru 10, Psalm 40 verse 4 thru 10,Genesis 3 verse 15, and Isaiah 7 verse 14.) Abram, who would become the father of faith, saw the day of Jesus Christ and rejoiced in His Lord and Savior Who was to come even through Abram’s own genetic seed. And in the great mystery of God, none of the rulers of this world had known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (See 1st Corinthians 2 verse 7 thru 10.)

    Robert Glenn

  570. Jessica Apr 16th 2013

    So if the old covenant is obsolete then the rainbow as a sign that Yah would not destroy the earth by flood meens nothing. So if he chose to do so he could flood the earth instead of burnvit

  571. Lightning Storm Apr 16th 2013

    LOL Jessica

    OR if the Old covenant was for the Jews only, He could flood the earth, rescue ALL the Jews, and drown ALL the Gentiles!

  572. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    A good topic to meditate on, the Kingship of Christ.

    There is a sense in which Christ inherited the title king from His identifying Himself with the house of David & the tribe of Judah in the nation of Israel. Such connections, however, do by no means fully & adequately explain His kingly power & royal nature.

    His kingly authority is underived, His kingly majesty unconferred, & His kingly glory unimparted on the basis of this world`s standards.

    Christ was divinely appointed king, definitely approved by Heaven, & decidedly anointed by Deity. (Ps. 2: 1 – 7)

    He introduced into kingship a new mystery by wielding authority
    over unseen powers, a new majesty by swaying empire over disease & death, a new mastery by dominating the material,
    physical, social & moral realms, & a new ministry of mrecy & mediation for the needs of mankind.

    A further distinction of His significant jurisdiction is the fact that
    it is age abiding; He knows no successor or superior & there can never be a usurper to undermine His throne of righteousness.

    His almighty power insures His reign against frustration of purpose, or forfeiture of principality. His credentials as a Ruler are complete, His competence as a King is perfect, & His capabilities as a Governor are of the highest caliber.

    All of these qua;ifications are totally independent of earth`s temporal systems of legislation & administration.

    God did not borrow the use of these terms of office, such as kingship, sonship, heirship & lordship, from humanity; these distinctions were current in the heavenly realm before man was

    Christ, as light of the world, brought into visiblity the reality of relationships that were in operation in the realm of glory before the world was (John 17: 5) of which glory Christ is King (Ps. 24: 7).
    Christ did not begin a career as a king in the present order. He was King when He was born into the world. (Matt. 2: 2)

    Hope we can continue to speak on His glorious Kingship.

  573. But after saying all that Marilyn I sense that the Lord has not yet given you the revelation that Jesus will sit on the throne of His father David – as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah – and reign from Jerusalem for the thousand years with us – all those who will ever believe in Jesus – with Him – reigning with Him as His Bride – as the scripture clearly teaches, Love in the Lord, Andrew – I will pray for you to be given this revelation by the Lord… 🙂

  574. Do not say in your heart when the Lord your God has driven them out before you, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is dispossessing them before you. It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. “Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people. (Deuteronomy 9:4-6 NASB

    GOD says a smoke in his nose…….
    are those who say………I am holier than thou
    come not near me………..
    And this is key…………..GOD did not choose the hebrews
    because of who they were. BUT for HIS NAME.
    and all prophets spoke of the COMING savoir.
    All things revealed unto the jews
    even in the days of MOSES……………
    pointed TO CHRIST…………a NEED of the savoir.
    and HE DID rejoice………..
    JEHOVAH JIREH………………..on the mount
    ABRAHAM SAW………….in the moutn of the LORD
    it shall be seen or provided. ABRAHAM did SEE
    as did MOSES………who warned of HIS COMING
    nathaniel and them knew it, so did others
    THIS IS HE OF WHOM MOSES and the PROPHETS did prophesy. a remnant did LOOK for the coming savoir.
    LIKE barry reminded us OF
    CLING TO CHRIST…………….and count the loss of all things
    as but DUNG to WIN CHRIST and be found in HIM,
    having his righteouness, the JUST shall LIVE BY HIS FAITH.
    and if this faith is in any thing OTHER THAN JESUS
    TIS SINKING SAND. amen. sinking sand.
    HE has redeemed us………….
    and appointed the HEAD which is CHRIST
    where circumsion avials nothing, nor uncurcimsion avails not
    SING LAMBS………….sing unto the LORD
    for HIS mercies are daily uppon us………..HIS COMPASSIONS fail NOT…………….TELL all, that has breath
    JESUS is the savoir…………and the ONLY means of our salvation.
    MAN……………HOW KNOWING THIS brings SONGS to my heart
    and thanksgivings unto GOD amen. TO GOD BE ALL GLORY.

  575. HELLO KEN…………
    not many think as you do, about the LORDS coming
    being so near.
    MY QUESTION IS……………..HOW MANY TOOK the warnings of NOAH………..or LOTT serious……………..
    DOES draw nigh. KEEP all affections above and be found in HIM as you would want to be found.
    THAT TRUMPET CALL of JESUS soon coming
    so was it no pauls day, peters, james
    jude, in hebrews……….THAT EARLY CHURCH BELIEVED HIS COMING drew nigh.
    for not many did in noahs day, not many did in LOTTS
    OH…………..KEEP LOOKING. amen.

  576. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Have you looked at Christ the King of heaven? (Dan. 4: 37, 34)

    Revelation from Heaven is not the result of human resolution. In His stately sovereignty the King of heaven holds the prerogative to reveal unseen realities. The highest knowledge is to know the Father; Christ alone can reveal such knowledge. (Matt. 11: 27

    In the Old Testament scriptures, upwards of 620 references concerning heaven & the heavens.
    `Behold, the heaven & the heaven of heavens is the Lord`s thy God, the earth also, with all therein is.` (Deut. 10: 14)

    Solomon said, `Behold, the heaven & heaven of heavens cannot contain Thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
    (1 Kings 8: 27)

    Nehemiah says, `Thou, even Thou, art Lord alone; Thou hast made heaven. the heaven of heavens, with all their host….
    & the host of heaven worshipeth Thee.` (Neh. 9: 6)

    In these undefinable realms the Lord has prepard & established His Throne. The immensity of His magnificence & the immortality of His majesty are wholly inexpressible.

    When Paul was caught up into the third heaven & had a glimpse
    of the heavenly court, he said he saw things that could not be lawfully uttered, meaning by this that all our known laws of magnitude & standards for measuring magnificence are outlawed & violated, because of the inconceivable glory.

    We are told that the host of Heaven is innumerable, then how could the human mind estimate maintenance costs? Such terms
    as splendors & gorgeous grandeurs are too weak to describe the indescribable.

    As King of Heaven, Christ has many diadems (Rev. 19: 12) &
    He is fairest in beauty, noblest in dignity, loveliest in majesty, & holiest in mercy.

    As King of Heaven, He wears the most distinguished diadem of deathless dominion. His imperishable merit & impenetrable worthiness mount higher in ceaseless fame. On His brow rest the choicest coronet of charming comeliness, while His hand sways the sublimest sceptre of supreme strength ever weided in

    His unfailing faithfulness & unvarying constancy qualify Him to reign forever & ever in an undefiled, unfading dominion that has
    a length, breadth, depth, & height that surpasseth knowledge.

    `He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.` (1 Cor. 1: 30 – 31)

    I`m sure we can all agree on that. Marilyn.

  577. Homemade terroism has struck america today.
    TWIN bombings at the marathon in boston.
    THIS is much harder to track, when its on a small scale level.
    No side is taking the claim.
    DO pray for them. PRAY for people to COME to JESUS
    asap. The noose shall tighten, but be unafraid
    Love even your enemies, forgive all
    and LIVE and walk in the SPIRIT amen.
    i love you all. Be blessed and do all as unto GOD amen.

  578. Roger (NZ) Apr 16th 2013

    Jessiac, Lightning Storm,
    I know that you are speaking in jest here 🙂 however it is good to remember that the Noahic covenant was to all mankind, is unconditional, and is still in place – the rainbow is the reminder to God of His covenant to man.

    This is my understanding of other covenants:

    What we term the ‘old’ covenant, is the Mosaic covenant – the law, which we know the Jews could not keep, and which many see as being replaced by the Messianic covenant, or ‘new’ yet we are told, (so we know) that Christ Jesus came to fulfil the law and prophets.

    We also have the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, still in place and to be fulfilled – the final chapters of Ezekiel speak of the fulfilment of the Abrahamic, and the Davidic will be fulfilled when Jesus sits on the throne in Jerusalem, during the millenial reign – this last is the subject that Andrew JH and Marilyn have been discussing.

    In His love,

  579. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Yes we all agree that Christ is given the throne of His father
    David. (earthly lineage) However we are discussing where he
    will be.
    Throne – `thronos,` Gk. word meaning power which you would know. Christ has been given power to rule over Israel because
    of His lineage, His credentials & His worthiness.

    I wrote the above comments (further back)from gleanings I had
    to show the immensity of Christ`s Kingship. We as humans try
    to bring Christ down to our level whereas we need to read what
    God says about Him.

    So, Andrew do you believe that the Lord is going

    -to rule the Universe from earth,
    -to rule the higher heavenly realms from earth,
    -to rule the innumerable heavenly hosts from earth,
    -to continue to uphold all things from earth.

    & then while He is on earth (as you say) at the end of the Millennium let Satan gather the nations together & surround Jerusalem where Christ is supposed to be ruling throughout
    the earth? (Rev. 20: 7 – 9)

    I think not. Marilyn.

  580. You may think what you like Marilyn but it doesn’t change the truth of God’s word… 🙂

  581. You know I am a very practical person. Every time a pastor tells us what we should do when he preaches, I ask him afterwards HOW? If he answers like you all, he must say “by the Spirits motivation in you”
    Well, what if I don’t feel motivated? You’ll probably say im not a Christian, or not in a good place spiritually & you MAY be right.
    I am in SA, rape & murder capitol of the world by far. Our education system is trashed, last year one province didn’t even get school books. Judicial system trashed. Try to get the courts to bring justice for you!!! its a joke. Hospitals will kill you if you go there….stay away or go to private….big bucks. 8% of towns in SA have an unqualified audit….roads…water supply…electricity….I have property IN TOWN, I am not allowed to build as theres not enough electricity…. Now that’s enough, you get the picture about our ANC govt.
    God has called me to motivate prayer for the govt & I insist when doing this in churches that you cannot love someone you hate. We need to love thoes who rule & God said pray for them.
    People don’t feel motivated to pray for them, theyre angry, christian & non C. A close friend of mine shot & killed 3 men who broke into his house 3 nights ago & the police said well done & took dead guys away.
    NOW what do I we do. God says pray for them, were angry. You say I don’t have to obey the law of God. You say im motivated by the Spirit. Let me tell you were not, were angry. Do I now say “Lord i’m not motivated by your Spirit & not under law so I wont pray for them until You motivate me.
    NONSENSE. If I know to do the right thing & don’t do it it’s sin. I do it because God said so, never mind ANY special motivation.
    You have all got the theory right & we’ll grow into that theory by growth in God, growing into maturity.
    So the law remains a school master to chase us to Christ until were perfect, not by imputation but in reality.
    All we get in CHrist is in my reborn spirit & the process of growing is to get it transformed into my soul….mind will & emotions & this is a process.
    When I know to do good & just don’t find it in my heart to do it I run to CHrist in repentance seeking Him to change me.
    When I don’t find to do the right thing & run to Christ
    Now this scenario you can apply to a million situations in every day life. None of us are perfected in love, we all obey the law & often hate it, like talking on your cell phone while driving, going over the speed limit etc etc. If you’re so wonderfully motivated by the Spirit you wil NEVER do a thing wrong. None of us want to do wrong but we do & it’s NOT always unintentional.
    Yes I agree 100% … NC. Were in a NC but the only thing against which there is no law is when our living is the fruit of the Spirit. Against such there is no law.
    This is I think the problem with our argument. The theory & the practice. The theory is 100% correct, its for the perfect man, & the law is what is going to keep driving us to Christ to transform us into His image because of the working in me of the NC.
    I’m NOT a legalist if I obey the law. I stay out of trouble if I do…. trouble with God i mean. I don’t do it to gain favor or get saved, I do it because I am saved & have his favor.
    Don’t kid yourself the law is gone, it’s not. Unless you’re perfect.

  582. Sorry… You cannot pray for someone you hate. (Not, you cannot love someone you hate) In fact you can, because of the NC I can go to Christ & be changed by His Spirit.
    Pray for yourself first.
    This is a good example of the law. The Law….Gods command is to love & Pray for Govt. I’m angry & I cant. I go to Christ Jesus & ask for help & forgiveness. A Perfect example of the law being a schoolmaster.

  583. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    We both are believing that we are reading God`s word correctly.
    So as the Apostle Paul encourages,

    `Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet;
    but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind & reaching
    forward to what lies ahead, I press towards the goal for the
    prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    Let us therefore, as many as are mature, have this attitude;
    & if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal
    that also to you;…` (Phil. 3: 13 & 14)

    All the best, Andrew J. Good discussion. Thank you. Marilyn.

  584. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9 NASB)

  585. Roger (NZ) Apr 16th 2013

    I have been reading along your discussion with Andrew J., (you’ll have realised this 🙂 ) and believe as he does that Lord Jesus will be reigning from Jerusalem through the 1,000 years.

    I read that you believe He will be reigning from Heaven during that time..? The difficulty I have with that is we understand that when Lord Jesus returns to earth, His second ‘coming’ – both the dead in Christ, and those who are alive will meet Him in the air – ever more to be with Him.

    I don’t read anywhere in scripture where Lord Jesus then returns to Heaven, with the saints for that 1,000 years, only to return, yet again, (which would be a third ‘coming’) after that 1,000 years.

    Do you have further insight on this..?

    In His love,

  586. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Roger, good questions.

    The Lord`s second coming to this earth is to deliver Israel &
    judge the nations as we know. The Lord comes to Mt. of Olives,
    in power & great glory. This glory effects those at Jerusalem like an atomic blast.

    `the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against
    Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, ….`
    (Zech. 14: 4 12 & 13)

    We also know from Zechariah that the people of Israel who have survived the great time of God`s wrath, will look on the Lord
    `whom they have pierced & mourn for Him as one mourns for
    an only son.` (Zech. 12: 10)

    The Christ sets us the Davidic kingdom with a king & priests

    `the Lord Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the
    earth. He subdues peoples under us (Israel) & nations under our
    feet. He chooses our inheritance for us, the glory of Jacob whom He loves. God has gone UP with a shout, The Lord with the sound of the trumpet……` (Ps. 47: 2 – 5)

    However, the Body of Christ is `not destined` for God`s wrath,
    (1 Thess. 5: 9) but we will see that time approaching &
    encourage each other all the more, (Heb. 10: 25) knowing that
    the Lord will come to the clouds (not the earth) & we the Body
    of Christ will escort Him to His own throne in the highest heaven.

    The Lord coming to the clouds for the Body of Christ & the Lord coming to the earth (a second time) for Israel & the Nations are
    to do with God`s great purposes through Christ for the 3 groups.

    `Give no offense either to the Jews, or to the Greeks (Nations),
    or to the Body of Christ.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

    Hope this helps. Marilyn.

  587. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    You are absolutely correct.

    `fire came down from heaven.` (Rev.20: 9)

    Christ in the highest heaven sends fire down to the earth.


  588. Roger (NZ) Apr 16th 2013

    Marilyn, thankyou for your answer.

    So, for clarification – you believe Lord Jesus will descend, but not to Earth, where those dead in Christ Jesus, plus those who are alive – will meet Him in the air. (which many would call the ‘rapture’ or ‘snatching away’)..?

    – Then Lord Jesus and the Body of Christ will return to Heaven for the 1,000 years (the millenial reign of Lord Jesus)..?

    – Then, after that time, He will return to Earth, which is the second ‘coming’ (proper) as spoken of in scripture..?

  589. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013


    Sorry if I wasn`t so clear. I`ll do point form.

    1. The Lord descends to the clouds, & the Body of Christ goes
    with Him to the third heaven. (Yes, like you said, all the Body of Christ)

    2. Christ is enthroned on His throne of Judgement & carries out
    God`s wrath upon the Nations.

    3. Christ returns to earth (His second coming) with His army of angels who deal with the fallen angels. Christ delivers Israel &
    then judges the nations & sets up the Davidic kingdom as promised to Israel.

    4. The nations who go through into the Millenium then learn of God`s ways through Israel. Christ oversees from heaven.

    5. Finally Satan is let loose to test those on the earth whether
    they will follow God or not. Those who don`t follow God get deceived by Satan who tries to get rid of Israel.

    6. Christ sends fire down from heaven.

    7. Then there is the Great white judgement throne for those who never heard the gospel etc. (Based on works by their conscience.) And the earth & the heavens are burnt up as they are contaminated with sin.

    I think you would believe much of that, except you probably
    mightn`t have thought on where Christ was in the Millennium & why.

    Good discussing with you Roger. Marilyn.

  590. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Roger I think I rushed that last point. In the etc obviously should include those who knew of God but went their own way & then later those who heard the good news of Christ & rejected it.


  591. So , what is it within us that seeks agreement with others about scripture pertaining to future events ?

  592. Hi Marilyn,

    You said,

    Andrew J. Horton.

    You are absolutely correct.

    `fire came down from heaven.` (Rev.20: 9)

    Christ in the highest heaven sends fire down to the earth.


    That is not what I said Marilyn…

    You are putting words into my mouth…

    I shared a scripture…


    Christ in the highest heaven does not send down fire onto the earth…

    You are deceived…

    Love in the Lord,


  593. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Then who do you think sent fire down from heaven?

    `The Father …has given Him (Christ) authority to execute
    judgment.` (John 5: 27)

    `For He (Christ) must reign till he has put all enemies under
    His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25)

    Who then sent the fire????? Marilyn.

  594. Jesus will hand all things back to the Father as the scripture says Marilyn and it will be the Father who sends that fire down from heaven, Love in the Lord, Andrew

  595. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Good try Andrew, However,

    `then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father, when HE (Christ) has abolished all rule & all authority & power.` (1 Cor. 15: 24)

    Christ is finally abolishing Satan, his fallen angels & rebellious mankind. (Their rule, authority & power.) Then the last enemy
    He (Christ) will abolish is `death.`
    (1 Cor. 15: 26)

    And what a glorious day that will be, Andrew. Let us rejoice
    together even though we see some things at this time, different.

    God bless. Marilyn.

  596. Hi Marilyn,

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28 NASB)

    Christ has already put Satan under His feet when Satan was bound and thrown into the abyss before the commencement of the thousand years,

    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. (Revelation 20:1-3 NASB)

    because he must be released for a short time doesn’t mean that he hasn’t already been put in subjection to Christ – he (Satan) already has been before the beginning of the thousand years – at Christ’s return to earth (when He stands on the Mount of Olives) – when the house of David sees Him and receives their King,

    I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn (Zechariah 12:10 NASB)….

    all the gods of the earth (i.e. the remaining demons) are also being starved during that time,

    The LORD will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, everyone from his own place. (Zephaniah 2:11 NASB)

    so they are also in subjection under His feet…

    The nations are also in subjection…

    A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—and he will delight in the fear of the Lord. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish, and Judah’s enemies will be destroyed; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim. They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west; together they will plunder the people to the east. They will subdue Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them. The Lord will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea; with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River. He will break it up into seven streams so that anyone can cross over in sandals. There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria, as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt. (Isaiah 11 NASB)

    the enemy must be released for a short time – but he’s already been vanquished – and the Father sends down fire from heaven to destroy him…

    Love in the Lord,


  597. John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


  598. Marilyn Crow Apr 16th 2013

    Bless you Andrew J. Hope we can chat on other topics sometime.

  599. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
    (Isaiah 9:6-7 NASB)

    Praise You Jesus… 🙂

    You are coming again to reign on the earth… 🙂

    From the throne of Your father David You will reign victorious over the entire earth – from Jerusalem – and we Your Church, Your Body, Your Bride, Your Saints will rule and reign with You by Your Side…

    Praise You Jesus…

    You are Worthy…

    You alone are Worthy to reign…

    Praise Your Wonderful Name…



  600. Luke 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;

    Matt 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Matt 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves (Israel) like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

    “when he will return from the wedding”

    Rev 19:7 Let us (Church) be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    It appears to me that the parable of the ten virgins is to Israel at the second coming of Jesus to earth.

    Trying to rightly divide the Church and Israel


  601. Rev 19:14 And the armies (Church) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Amen…Andrew J, we will rule and reign with Him for 1000 years


  602. watchful Apr 16th 2013

    Amen, Ian I know what you mean….that urgency is from the Holy Spirit, I do have that sense as well……….

    And amen to what you are saying about how the Lord drives us to seek Him for a perfect heart…….I need it too. And even David asked and sought the Lord to give him a willing spirit and an undivided heart.

    I had my eyes opened to how things are on the ground in S.A. not long ago, it is not reported in the media here …….signs of the times, you are maybe just a few years ahead of us here in North America, and praise God that citizenship is not there or here, but above!

  603. Jessica Apr 16th 2013

    Go to face book and look up Hebrew roots. There is a challenge to prove that the Sabbath no longer needs to be kept orhas been changed. It mist be done with Scripture alone

  604. watchful Apr 16th 2013

    Where the Jewish people are concerned, there are two thousand years plus of rejection and anti-Semitism they are dealing with, and it affects things on both sides. It shows up often in subtle ways that they are not blind to nor unfeeling. Sometimes we rub salt in their wounds without meaning to or being aware of it. Yes the gospel is the answer, when it is preached by the Holy Spirit and not flesh, which is rare, and the Lord will heal them and one day vindicate, just as we all need and are grateful for His mercy.

  605. watchful Apr 16th 2013

    Regarding the stubbornness of the Jews…….was our all-knowing God wrong in His choice then? Did He make a mistake? Or did Jesus fail in His mission….coming as He did at the lowest ebb of their spiritual history? No, there is more here than meets the eye, a bigger picture to take in. Who can fathom His ways?? Why was Paul in raptures when he talked about this MYSTERY concerning Israel?

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

    Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

    Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

    Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

  606. Some one above made a reference to modern day Israel killing and taking land. Israel in every incidence of violence has been defending themselves. The evil taint that fires rockets into the Israeli citizens living in peace, hide themselves amongst women and children of the Palestines….using those as their shields…so when Israel takes out the rocket source, innocent lives are lost.

    Israel was not the aggressors when they first achieved statehood either. They were the ones attacked. Same with the wars when they won Jerusalem. In fact Israel offerred citizenship to the other people that were within the territories that they were given. They also offerred citizenship to the Palestines way back. It was the Saudi’s who basically restrained the Palestinians into their “camps”, but did not even think to offer them citizenship.

    We better do our research from a source that does not hate Israel. I watch Russian TV, China TV, and Al Jazeer TV…and I see the lies that are used to justify their hatred, just as many of America’s news sources also harbor hatred for the Jews, and all over the world.

  607. Before Yeshua came to earth as Messiah to die for the Jews and the Gentiles who would be grafted in, the Lord established HIS Festivals that testify of HIM.

    When the Lord gave all of Israel (not just Judah, the Jews), but ALL Israel HIS Festivals to keep, HE SAID that HIS Festivals are EVERLASTING and a SIGN that the LORD is their JUSTIFIER and REDEEMER.

    Those who speak against the Lord’s Festivals are ignorant and in grave ERROR.

    The true followers will be singing the song of MOSES and the LAMB.

    Revelation 15:1-3, I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

  608. Right on! Andrew J. Horton….if your are referencing the fire that comes down at the end of the Mellinnium.

    The Vial Fires preceeding the Mellinnium are orverseen by Christ, King of Kings, according to my understandings, tho.

  609. watchful Apr 16th 2013

    Richard Savage…….the gospel of the cross has been lost in these days and that revelation is not being passed on…..I am talking about the disciple’s cross which Jesus said to take up and follow Him…which is called the Way. It seems to me the Jewish people have been carrying a cross, and that cross involves rejection…….once you realize that what you are carrying is a cross which will result in a glory that far outweighs it then it becomes a little easier to bear it patiently and with the same mind of trust in the Father and forgiveness that the Son had. Crucifying the flesh/carnal nature………which will result in a resurrection unto life in the Spirit. Does it not say, what will their acceptance be……but life from the dead?? Just as for all of us, if we will humble ourselves under His mighty hand, in due time He will exhalt us, if we endure to the end. Help us Father to endure and to commend into your hands our lives, amen.

  610. First of all Luke 6:45 says, ”…for his mouth speaks out of the abundance of his heart.” You say that you do not support replacement theology, yet your whole thesis is about how the church is now more important than Israel, and this culminates in your statement “Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant era – not Israel. “ Who are you kidding – you do too believe in replacement theology and your own words betray you. In this statement, you replaced Israel with the church – if that is not replacement theology, then what is?

    I have been chewing on this for years, and I still do not have an air-tight argument; nevertheless, I will add my thoughts to this foray (quotes form KJ3 Literal Translation Bible):
    1. Zechariah 2:8 “For so says the Jehovah of Hosts: He has sent me after glory, to the nations who plundered you: for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye.” Spoke to the Jews. So if the Church has now replaced the Jews as the apple/pupil of His eye, then God is a liar.
    2. John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation is of the Jews.” Jesus linked salvation to the Jews.
    3. In numerous places in the OT God tells Israel that His covenant with them is an everlasting covenant. Cf. Lev 24:8, 1Chron16:17, Psalms 105:10 etc. So, again either God still has an active, everlasting covenant with the Jews, or He is a liar. After all God knows the end from the beginning (cf. IS 46:10) and He knew that Israel would break the covenant just like we do; nevertheless, God acts for His Own sake (cf. IS 43.25) to forgive all of us our sins.
    4. Romans 11, says that we, believers and followers of Jesus, are wild olive branches grafted into the olive tree (Israel) so how exactly are we now more important or relevant to God than Israel?

    Here is the problem, you (and others before you) have divided up of the Bible into eras or dispensations. The Bible knows no such division; it is a construct of man, not God, nor Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit. The Bible is a fluid whole, even the division of Old Testament and New Testament is a construct of man.

    Yes there is a new covenant in Jesus’ blood (cf. MT 26:28). EZ 11:19-20, EZ 36:26-27 says that the point of giving us His Spirit is so that we will keep His statutes and judgments – if these statutes and judgments were irrelevant then why give us His Spirit to do them?

    There is not a true Christian alive that would not agree that Jesus kept the Law or Torah perfectly and that is the ONLY reason He can be our Savior. Then all Christians turn right around and believe that this same Jesus, who perfectly kept the Law, and now lives in us through His Holy Spirit, and who says that He did not come to do away with (cf.MT 5:17), now dismisses us from having any concern with the Law. Wow, really!

    So, bottom line – this is a very brief sketchy argument to say that I do not agree with you Andrew. Do I have it all figured out? NO, I’ll be the first to admit that; however, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Israel and the Church, we are all inextricably linked together. What it all means and how it will all play out, remains to be seen. It is Greek philosophical thinking that demands to put everything in a nice neat box, so that it makes perfect sense – this is not biblical for