PROSPERITY DOCTRINE is JEZEBEL – Wilkerson

THE GREATEST DECEPTION
-extracts by David Wilkerson

The greatest deception in the modern church is the matter of using God’s Word to put a badge of approval on covetousness. On the surface, the Jezebel doctrine works (see 1 Kings 21:14-16). It got Ahab what he wanted. He possessed his rights because when a man was stoned for high treason against the king, all his possessions reverted to the king.

Naboth the Jezreelite had told Ahab that he would not give him
the inheritance of his fathers because the Lord forbade him to do so.

“And [Ahab] laid him down upon his bed, and turned away his face,
and would eat no bread. But Jezebel his wife came to him, and
said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?…
Dost thou now govern the kingdom of Israel? Arise, and eat bread,
and let thine heart be merry: I will give thee the vinyard of Naboth
the Jezreelite” (1 Kings 21:4-7).

Listen to the doctrine of Jezebel: “You are king, number one, and
you have rights. Let nothing stop you from getting what you want.”
She said to Ahab, “Be happy! I’ll get it for you.” That is the false
gospel in a nutshell. “Don’t sweat it. Don’t feel sad or condemned
by those desires that eat you up. I’ll get it for you.” Like the
deceptive methods Jezebel used, these doctrines twist and
misuse Scripture.

But Ahab could not enjoy what he received because of a pesky
prophet of God…

So it is today. God has sent prophets, crying aloud, confronting
the Jezebel doctrine of materialism, making it uncomfortable for
Christians to enjoy their playthings and acquisitions. They have
sold out. They cannot see it, but sin is behind all this. Every time
I cry out against the prosperity doctrine, I sense the spirit and
power of Elijah upon me. You are going to hear more and more
exposing of this Jezebel doctrine. Everywhere, prophetic voices
will be heard loud and clear, crying out, “Sin! You possessed by
selling out to sin.”

-READ THE FULL ARTICLE-
http://sermons.worldchallenge.org/en/node/25091

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on November 6th, 2013 at 9:52 am.

185 comments

185 Replies

  1. Aloha David,’
    Preach it Brother !!! Have you sent a copy to most of the well known TV Evangelists? Not one word in the N.T. concerning tithing, God does not want 10%, HE now wants 100%. Not one word about building any building either? Not saying that you can’t but saying one must be surely guided by the Holy Spirit or they become a monument to man’s ego and not for the Glory of God. I am 81 now and have seen many come and go with the give to get doctrine. You are so in touch with the Holy Spirit. If ever in Hawaii come see me. Blessings, Ken< http://www.Hawaii-bnb.com

  2. David M Nov 6th 2013

    Wow, and Spot On! I don’t think I’ve ever heard the “prosperity gospel” defined so simple and clear.

  3. 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

    They preach the first 2/3s of this scripture and leave out the most important part. If our soul is prosperous then we don’t desire the riches. Health and prosperity is important to God for His people, but the “give to get” doctrine works off of people’s greed, not their faith.

    It is even amazing how many people continue to follow these ministries, never actually receiving their wealth, and don’t even realize the truth. Their greed keeps them going and keeps them giving.

  4. Penny Nov 6th 2013

    What a blessing David W was and still is through his writings. This is wonderfully put. Simple and clear and so apt. I pray EVERYBODY reads it!

    Please find us more Andrew and may the Lord bless you in all that you do.

  5. watchful Nov 6th 2013

    Amen, the history of Naboth’s vineyard exactly mirrors what is going on in the prosperity gospel today………poor Naboth denied the right to labour and eat the fruits of his own vineyard as portioned by the Lord because the “king” wants to do it all and have the glory thereof; denied the right to obey the Lord because the “king” demands or manipulates obeisance to himself instead, and therefore effectively cut off from Life (of Christ) itself. This is one reason why we are led to leave this whole setup behind in the dust – it is sick beyond repair.

    When the Lord graciously delivered me of this false gospel and restored me to the true gospel of Jesus Christ, my joy returned……..perhaps more than ever before we need to test ourselves to see if we are in the Faith…..as the apostle wrote, “What has happened to all your joy?”

    Amen, DonaldN, that’s how sick it has become in our generation, pandering to people’s covetousness instead of exhorting them not to covet……this bears no resemblance whatsoever to the faith that was handed down to us by the apostles…..but also fear has a lot to do with it, instilling fear of missing God’s blessing and of becoming or remaining poor if they don’t do what the “king” in the pulpit says. This is why we should want no “king” but Christ.

  6. Years after coming out of the false, sick, and deceptive prosperity mess the Holy Spirit said to me….You no the GMO…genetically modified organism (seed)…I said yes, He said this is why the prosperity message works for the preacher BUT NOT THE PEOPLE.

    When the natural seed is changed by man……

    IT CANNOT REPRODUCE……1 CROP AND NO MORE.

    so when the preacher changes the supernatural seed (THE WORD OF GOD) to make it BETTER FOR HIM.

    IT PRODUCES 1 CROP….TO HIM

    BUT THE PEOPLE WHO GAVE TO HIM…NEVER RECEIVE THE PROMISED 100 FOLD BECAUSE.

    IT WAS NOT THE PURE WORD THAT WAS SOWN (AND WILL REPRODUCE)

    IT WAS MAN MODIFIED (GMO) AND IT CAN NOW

    ONLY ..PRODUCE..1 CROP….TO GUESS WHO……

    YES THAT’S RIGHT THE PROSPERITY PREACHER.

    thank GOD for his SPIRIT who leads and guides us into ALL the truth. http://www.acts29today.com

  7. To Larry: That is an in incredible revelation of truth The Lord gave you. I have seen that principle @ work and it states it in a nutshell. The amazing thing I see with the prosperity preachers who prosper and talk about their jets and Rolls Royces or Bentleys and live in huge palatial homes is that the people in the pew don’t realize it is their giving that has bought them these things while not prospering the same as the preachers. My question is why do people continue to give when it is not producing for them? I believe God wants us to prosper and it is to fund furthering the gosple message and God’s Kingdom but the Bible says we are to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteous. James states, “you have not because you ask not and when you ask, you ask amiss consuming it on your own lusts”. God forgive us!

  8. Amen. This exactly why Nigerian scams target the church. Also why we have seen so many investment scams in the church. Greed blinds the eyes. The only reason these prosperity teachers thrive is because the people “heap to themselves teachers who will tickle their ears.” If they quit giving it would cease but the people love to have it so.

    We need to get back to the pure gospel of Jesus Christ and focus on what is important to the heart of God: making disciples. God will deal with the false prophets of Baal. Watch this video about the Gospel Jesus preached: http://youtu.be/typPkUtyE4M

  9. L. Alex Smith Nov 6th 2013

    First to Ken Smith, top of the list: Dear Ken, our brother David Wilkerson was killed in a auto wreck in 2011…but his heart is still borne out through his writings.
    Prosperity Scriptures: III John 1:2 “I would that you would prosper” only means, “do well”– very vague, it can not be construed to mean materially in particular (although it may encompass that as well). A very weak argument to make indeed. Delight thyself also in the Lord, and He shall give thee the desires of thine heart. (Psalm 37:4 is it?) But what ARE the desires of thine heart? The more you delight in Him, the more your heart is submitted to Him, the cleaner and purer those desires (whatever they may be) become. Do you want to own your own house? That isn’t necessarily wrong. If it becomes an idolatrous obsession, especially for Pride’s sake (to look good in the sight of others), then it would be sinful.
    “Give and it shall be given to you, good measure, pressed down, flowing together, shall men give into your bosom.” (Luke 6, I think). Yes, but Jesus is speaking of giving to those who ask of you– the poor especially– no context for “tithing to the Church”. It’s PERSONAL giving…to another in need. I knew a woman who gave and gave, whenever she heard of a need. Things just kept on coming to her– but she didn’t keep them! (I was the happy recipient of a pair of much-needed book-shelves…someone had dumped them in her front garden, they were in fine condition!)
    Even in II Corinthians 9, it is NOT about “tithing to the church”, it is about Giving to the saints, I think the church in Jerusalem was going through a hard patch. Paul even says in that passage, that then when You are going through a hard time, they will help you out.
    Covetous: wanting what is NOT YOURS TO HAVE…frequently connected with fornication or adultery. Wanting things is not wrong. Wanting more and more, what you don’t need, just for the sake of Getting, is wrong. Likewise, what is not yours to have. “I want that car.” Well, do you mean, that particular car, or do you simply mean, one just like it? If it is for sale, that’s legitimate…you just need to come up with the money, talk to the current owner, and make a deal. BUT–if it is NOT for sale, that car is NOT yours to have. That’s coveting.
    God is not opposed to people owning things; He is not opposed to people having great possessions even– IFFfffffff they do not interfere with one’s relationship with God and with one’s fellow man. Paul wrote to Timothy or Titus (can’t remember which) saying, “Charge those that are rich in this life [not that many in that culture, unlike modern UK and US culture where it is possible to become wealthy easier] that they be NOT HIGH MINDED, nor Trust In Uncertain Riches [TRUST being the key word there] but be generous, willing to distribute…”
    I see the prosperity doctrine as not so much wrong (but in those Scriptures I mentioned) as MISDIRECTED.
    People are misguided to focus much more than is healthy, on the material wealth of this life. Matthew 6:33 comes to mind, “Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things [necessary food, clothing, and shelter], will be given unto you.” Jesus didn’t say, “Don’t seek those things at all.” Priority, priority.
    The rich young ruler went away grieved, for he had great possessions. Joseph of Arimethea and Nicodemus were quite wealthy– they gave Jesus a burial fit for a King, the spices weighing “a hundred pound”– that rivalled King Herod!!! But Jesus never told THEM to “sell all, give to the poor, and come and follow me” as he did to the rich young ruler. Apparently, their hearts were yielded to God in such a manner, that their earthly possessions were not an idol to them, but continually “lay on the altar of sacrifice” in their hearts.
    To the Church of Smyrna, Jesus says, “ye are poor, but ye are rich”. Smyrna produced myrrh– the Embalming spice (you can see it in the word Smyrna) but it was a very poor town. It typifies the Age of Persecution (10 days=10 periods of Roman persecution from 64 A.D. until 303 when Emperor Theodosius passed the Edict of Toleration, and 313 when Emperor Constantine passed the Edict of Milan)…. to the Church of Laodicea, Jesus said “Because you say that you are rich and in need of nothing, and know not that you are wretched and poor and miserable and blind and naked.”
    What I have seen in the prosperity/Faith movement is mostly hyped-up, self-congratulatory back-slapping, pumping up people’s emotions and enthusiasm, without the real ROOTS of submission, sacrifice, and surrender. The promises of God ARE “yea and amen”–but– the movement is MisDirected and Mis Guided.
    Seek the Giver, not just the gifts.
    Wise men still seek Him.

  10. Interesting take. The problem I see with this definition:
    Greed killed someone and took what they wanted. The “faith” movement NEVER works in the flesh, ie: taking someone else’s stuff by force. They believe by faith and God comes through for them.
    I’m not saying I stand with them, I just believe that this in an inaccurate description of what the prosperity camp teach and believe.
    Remember, we are all one in Christ and this type of teaching puts a wedge in the Church. I am sorry to see this posting on this site.

  11. Nellie Nov 6th 2013

    It truly saddens me that the church has inherited humanism and marcissism into the sermons and the hearts of the congregation. I am not against holding to the promises of God, but we want it for us, not His glory.
    I hear preachers spend twenty minutes in tithing, which is not wrong in itself, but HOW they present sends me in grief. “Give to God and He will give it back to you” is selfish. Why bother to give if you’re looking to get it back?
    Jesus spent most of His time helping others. He did spend time alone with His Father, but He sought wasn’t for His gain, but His Father. Even the Holy Spirit does glory for Himself, but Christ.
    Lastly, the prosperity message abuses the spiritual for the sake of the flesh. With some, it is the rich man’s mentality if they are forced to decide to give up their possessions for the sake of following Christ.
    God will provide your needs, not your wants. Paul never had prosperity, and he wrote two thirds of the N.T. He saw no need, why should we?

  12. Terri Nov 6th 2013

    This is a difficult, yet familiar topic to me. I do believe that Jesus wants us fed and clothed and even healthy. But because I grew up in the faith camp, I do know about how much of it actually spends money. And, honestly, it is very difficult, almost impossible, for me to put money (offerings) into those type of churches or ministries that spend money in ways that bother me. Do we really need to be buying a rolls royce for someone? Do we really need to have the biggest screens in our churches in all of town? Do we really need little Christian Disneylands with pools, hot tubs, huge gyms, etc? Yet none of those things themselves are actually sin, but the attitude of having to have them bothers me a lot. I have a lot of difficulty with some of the things I have seen. And God forgive me if I am in sin by judging those things. But I know in my heart of hearts that something is “off” in that. I just know it.
    You have to understand that they teach that jezebel is actually a spirit of witchcraft or manipulation. It is a spirit of rebellion, of not obeying those in authority over you. For instance, if there is a person in the church who criticizes or questions those in authority in the church, that is called a jezebel spirit. “Touch not God’s anointed” and all that…… Yet, now I wonder is it the spirit of materialism? I highly respect the gifting that Brother Wilkerson carried, so I am really needing a revelation about this topic.
    I can tell you, in all certainly, that there are people all over this nation in “faith” churches who have hearts that really seek to serve the Lord. There are people all over the nation, and even the world, in “revival” churches that desire so very much to just be touched by God, to be used by God. So many people just want to be touched by God, used by God, and please God. And even if they are part of the “faith camp” (Rhema, etc) or the charismatic “revival camp” (Toronto type revival move), it doesn’t mean that they are evil or have the wrong attitude. It might just mean that God hasn’t yet revealed any “bad” or “off” things in the moves to them yet. Don’t automatically think that anyone in those types of churches or moves are evil. Some, many, are actually seeking God. They just don’t know how to do it, or don’t see what is wrong yet.
    However, I do see a lot of greed in some of the parts of the “faith” move. Brother Hagin himself held a special meeting before his death of much of the leadership and ministers from Rhema about the greed that had sprung from fleshliness in the prosperity message. He didn’t agree with it. It’s too bad that he didn’t confront it nation-wide with a message to all believers. Greed is wrong, it always has been. Is it called jezebel? I don’t know?

  13. Terri Nov 6th 2013

    I wanted to mention one more thing…… I was at Rhema campmeeting years back. There were thousands of us there, mostly rhema graduates and ministers. Everyone was dressed to the hilt, pretty shoes, nice clothes, some jewelry, basically dressed like “God would dress” according to the idea of the move, you know? And, among all these lovely money-laden people were big offerings. In fact, they have security guards who pick up the offerings, transport them to Brinks-type trucks just outside in the 100+ degree heat, and drive them away each day. It is like a little army line carrying the money each day with armed guards around them (honestly). And in the midst of these thousands of people are vagrant, street people, who come into the meetings because there is AC in the convention center there across from the post office in Tulsa. They are dirty, carrying their belongings in bags, dressed in rags. And I had to wonder about all those 100s of thousands of dollars going to build buildings, buy rolls, buy airplanes, etc, and how we could have fed and clothed the street people. I’ve never been back to a camp meeting because it just bothered me so much. I think that was the moment that I first became aware that something was off in the faith move. And like I said, God forgive me if I am sinning by saying this. But I feel very uncomfortable with many parts of what I have seen. Yet, I really do believe that God wants us fed, clothed, housed, healthy, and cared for. But I don’t want to be greedy either. That is wrong.

  14. marilyn Nov 6th 2013

    David Wilkerson, an anointed preacher of God’s word, has always ministered to those in the church. A man after God’s heart. The gospel of Jesus Christ is simple, able for all to understand. If it can’t preach to third world countries, it isn’t the gospel. Those who are one in Christ have their eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.

    Jesus tells us: “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven , where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your heart is, there your heart will be also.”

    Romans chapter 14 addresses what is important. Vs 16-19 “So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.”

    Preaching the truth will convict by the Holy Spirit. Preaching a false gospel causes confusion and also appeals to our itching ears. The Bible teaches us to be content, with much and with little. To preach that we are worthy of more than what we have, and then instruct us to send a “seed offering” to a “ministry” so that with “faith” we will receive more wealth is not just false, it is wicked. It is rebellion and like that of witchcraft. The “faith movement” is faith in what we do,not what God wants for our lives.

    “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.” 1 Peter chapter 2 for context

    The prosperity gospel is a false gospel that is, as David writes, “the greatest deception in the modern church.”

    “No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.” Luke 16:13

  15. Paul Crier Nov 6th 2013

    Larry, thank you so much for your very insightful and very helpful post. I know a few people involved in the prosperity movement and follow people such as Ken Copeland and Benny Hinn, yet they are poor and struggling with not just financial issues , but a whole host of emotional and psychological problems. It is as if the whole teaching corrupts every aspect of the individual’s life. What you say about the GM seed seems to explain much.

  16. Carina Nov 6th 2013

    Patricia,
    You’re right in that the current faith movement doesn’t literally put a gun in people’s heads to force them to give. On the other hand, there are ways you can manipulate people with words that are almost as bad as that. Jezebel wasn’t always murdering people. Her first strategy was to seduce, then if it didn’t work she would intimidate with her power. Telling people, as I’ve heard not once but many times, that they won’t prosper at all unless they tithe faithfully (once a guy in my former church had had an accident at work and the pastor told him it was before he’d stopped tithing!), that can cause a lot of damage. Ultimately, it can kill the person’s faith, which is worse than killing them literally. See what Paul has to say in 1 Timothy 6:9-10
    But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
    Stimulate people’s greed and you actually put an idol between people and God, thus preventing the unconverted from meeting Him, hinder babes in Christ’s progress and may actually cause some believers to lose their faith. That’s VERY serious!

    Terri, you’re absolutely right. There are many good people in very bad churches. Why they stay, why the Holy Spirit doesn’t tell them to get out and do it now, is really puzzling to me… What comes to mind is that the meaning of Babylon is “confusion”.

  17. The church I last attended, the last Sunday I attended, the pastor made the claim during the offering message, literally saying, “if you do not tithe, god CANNOT bless you.”
    He claimed this was due to the way his covenant worked for us.
    That was the last straw, I never went back to that church.

  18. The Faith preachers should be relabeled as HOPE preachers, because what they actually teach people to do is to hope that their greed is fulfilled. There is no real faith involved.

  19. Excellent preaching!!! This false gospel is destroying the church in Latin America.

  20. antipas4yahshua Nov 6th 2013

    Allow me to add to this. Jezebel (w/o cohabitation) is a woman usurping/teaching her husbands authority.
    It is out of the divine order.
    Y’hsua and Paul warned against this spirit / teaching.
    ~Shalom

  21. Viv Moore Nov 6th 2013

    Amen!…this message is like a breathe of fresh air to me!…at present there is no church I can trust…so I keep myself safe before the Lord at home…I love HIM with all my heart and soul. I attended churches for many years and saw so many abuses of power…but I woulkd pick myself up again and move on…until it got to the point where I just couldn’t “do” church one more day!….I don’t find pleasure in saying this as I loved the good things about fellow shipping together as a body…..but just cannot come under these worldly spirits anymore. I do however pray for the churches…that the spirit of the Lord would come and sweep them clean and raise Godly men and women who are humble before the Lord to be placed in leadership positions….I believe the church in the last days has to remodel itself on the very first church of Corinth…where it wasn’t about getting rich and powerful…it was just about Jesus and loving one another. It will take something very different to get the many thousands of disilussioned ex church goers back into any kind of fellowship again….one thing I do know is that it will not look anything like the church as it is today!

  22. i dont belong to any denomination neither did i give consistent donations, until one day, ‘God’ told me personally by audible voice “give to prosperity” so i give a tithe + a sacrificial offering to ‘Ministries’ that are prosperous and move in the ‘Glory’ & presence of the Holy Spirit… and the more i receive, the more give to further the Gospel & help the poor.

    Imagine if King Solomon was here today.. he would be classed as a prosperity teacher.. We are Kings & Priests, we are the Head and not the tail, we are in position to lend and not borrow, we are under the Blessings of Abraham by the Blood of Jesus… thats what my Bible says.

    Father God deliver us from financial curses and poverty spirits.
    Set us free from stingyness, greed and selfishness.
    Give us a generous heart and mind to give where you direct us, so that we may prosper in order to further your Kingdom and to prosper others. Amen, Amen, Amen.

    Proverbs 8:18
    With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity.

    Proverbs 3:16
    Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor.

    Proverbs 22:4
    Humility is the fear of the LORD; its wages are riches and honor and life.

    Proverbs 30:8
    Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.

    Jeremiah 9:23
    This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches,

  23. The difference between religion and faith:

    Religion exists to control faith, faith exists to keep religion in check. Religion is man’s interpretation of God’s will, faith is its acceptance.

  24. David Marsh Nov 6th 2013

    I read with interest the previous blog where the battle between Andrew and the bloggers went on for a while concerning whether ‘leaders’ were legitimate or not in the church setting.

    Here Ahab depicts what the bloggers have come to despise in the church and rightly so. Ahab was a modern day church ‘leader’.

    But then came along Elijah, an anointed LEADER whom Andrew was trying to refer to.

    The true biblical leader, as were the apostles in the Book of Acts, as we should now be looking for – look very much like Elijah and Paul and Peter and Timothy and Stephen in the Book of Acts.

    These are the leaders Andrew is trying to point us to – that are necessary for the end time church that has already begun.

    There is an one such end time LEADER that has already begun his work. He is walking in the same shoes as Smith Wigglesworth and i thoroughly recommend that you all have a good look at this man and what he is doing and what he is saying.

    His name is Torbin Sondergaard and you can see him at TheLastReformation.com

    If ever a man was anointed and walking after the Holy Spirit – it is Torbin. Take a look.

    God bless

    David Marsh.

  25. chas…
    One difference between King Solomon and the supporters of prosperity preachers today…

    1 Kings 10:27 And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.

    The people also prospered under King Solomon’s reign.
    The people under the reign of the prosperity preachers, as a whole, are not prospering.

  26. 2 Chron 9:6 Howbeit I believed not their words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the one half of the greatness of thy wisdom was not told me: for thou exceedest the fame that I heard.
    7 Happy are thy men, and happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and hear thy wisdom.

    I moved to Branson Missouri for about 6 months to be in Keith Moore’s church. I got to know people, the common people, the givers, the HOPERS. I found out that most of them, also myself included, were not receiving the great blessings promised. Most of them were putting on a Sunday morning blessing face at church while they worshiped and praised, but during the week, as we fellowshipped with many of them, we found them to be in need and HOPING for their blessing to manifest.

  27. Inspired Nov 6th 2013

    The Gospel is about prospering. It is the matter of its source. All things belong to the Father who owns the cattle on the thousand hills. proverbs 10:22 says that the Lords blessing brings wealth and no sorrow comes with it. Eccl.10:19 says that money answers all things.
    How can Father bless others through you if you want to remain poor. It just does not work.
    It is a matter of source. Do I source in the Father who gives freely all things so that others can be blessed, or do I source in self to add to my lust.

  28. Andrew Nov 6th 2013

    No the gospel is not about “prospering”.

    It is about getting right with God – getting “clean” before Him.

    Good grief.

    -Andrew Strom

  29. Inspired Nov 6th 2013

    Gospel/good news.
    Does God heal only those who are right with Him or does He heal all who will come? If he heals all who will come and they taste His goodness, would they not repent?
    The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, I came that they may have life and have it more abundantly.
    Beloved I wish above all things that you may prosper/excel/shine/ and be in good health even as your soul prospers/shines/excels.
    The gospel is all about prospering/excelling/shinning.
    Did He not take the talent from the man who thought Him to be austere and give it to the one who had the most because he multiplied what had been given him?

  30. Andrew Nov 6th 2013

    Sir – please read more than the 2 verses spouted over and over by Prosperity preachers.

    The beginning of the gospel is “Repent!”

    And that includes repentance from following ‘Mammon’.

    Jesus preached strongly against money all the time.

    Do we do the same?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  31. Many, many people today are being decieved into thinking what they do is not sin. They call evil good and good evil as the Word said they would in the last days. Prosperity preachers will answer to the Lord for what they are doing, and not doing, that would be preaching the WHOLE GOSPEL.

  32. On one side we have the grace people. They believe that God does nothing, except perhaps a few sparse miracles to show he is still God. They believe that grace is all you need, take the rest of life as it comes.
    On the other extreme we have the faith side. They believe you can have anything you want, just believe when you ask for it and he will give it.

    Once again, we have ditches on both sides of the road. Many blind folk have been led into the ditch on both sides by their blind leaders.

    God is only in the center of the road.

    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    God desires the ultimate for each of His Children.
    The ultimate is this..to be led by the Spirit, every moment of every day, always.
    If we were to do this, we would never make a bad decision, never have a need, always be in full health and always prosper.
    The problem with most people is that they judge prosperity by the gold standard. MONEY!!! How much is wealth?
    If we changed our thinking over to the GOD standard, then the things we possess would mean nothing. If we thought of everything material to be nothing more than a plastic toy, then only those baby Christians would still be fighting over the stuff. Mature, grown up Christians lose their desire for their old plastic toys.
    The God standard is this… how much of the Spirit of Christ is controlling our life?

  33. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. (1 Timothy 6:3-11 NASB)

    I don’t know a more clear and concise biblical renunciation of the prospers gospel that this passage .
    1. Godliness IS NOT a means to financial gain.
    2. God commands contentment with food, shelter and clothing- everything else is coveting.
    Contentment is wanting what you already have. The Greek word for greed/coveting is literally “to want more”
    3. The man of God IS TO FLEE the love of money.

    How can these people read this and yet say that the man of God should be rich and that godliness is a means of getting rich.

    This teaching comes not from Jesus but from the world and the devil. Just as the devil tempted Jesus with worldly wealth and earthly glory if he would just bow down and worship him so Satan is tempting the prosperity people – THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN Jesus and these prosperity gospel folk is that Jesus didn’t bow down to money- these people do.

  34. Proverbs 11:25
    A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.

    Jeremiah 29:11
    For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

  35. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    Only sin can be repented of. Jesus only saves from sin.
    Until there is a willingness to let the Holy Sprit come in and show the church that the love of money is NOT GODLY but SIN the church will never be able to repent and Jesus will never be able to save the church from this sin.

    Friends listen to what the Holy Spirit says the prosperity message and the love of money I’d not godliness but GREEDINESS!!!

    The church has been leading with Jesus to come in , to come back but Jesus by His very identity is a saviour and so he can’t com back and come in until the church ADMITS THAT SHE HAS SINS TO BE SAVED FROM!!

    As long as the church continues to refuse to admit sin their can be no Savior in our midst.
    As long as the church thinks she needs to be saved from poverty, saved from psychological infirmities, saved from weakness THEIR CAN BE NO SALVATION AND NO PRESENCE OF JESUS BECAUSE JESUS ONLY SAVES FROM SIN!!!

    Who is willing to say – this is sin in my life- this is sin in the church- JESUS COME IN AND DO WHAT YOUR VERY NAME AND IDENTITY IS ALL ABOUT- come in and save us from our sins.

    No sins – no Savior – no Savior no salvation- no sins no Presence of God
    The church shall be Iccahabod until the church admits her sin!!

  36. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    Guess I have a lot to be thankful for. He delivered me from some things and established His righteousness within, got me out of debt, which leaves me to be able to be a blessing to others. God is a gold standard, gold is symbolic of righteousness, which is an orderly way, His.
    It was He who told me to get out of debt– I laughed, and yet He gave wisdom every step of the way.
    Now I can ask Him who would He like to bless today.
    It was the rich man who did not want to part with his riches because he thought he earned them, sourcing in himself, instead of knowing that the Father would bless him over if he gave them up.

  37. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    Thank you Chas, for two more witnesses.

  38. The difference between following prosperity preaching and following the true word of God is this

    One is a loving, committed bride, dedicated to the love of her life.

    The other is a gold digger.

  39. Dr. David Nov 7th 2013

    Maybe Benny Hinn and his sidekick Paula
    White can show us the way, naw think I will just read Job.

  40. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    God is good and God is generous- He who did not spare His own Son but freely gave Him up for us all- how will He not also along with Him- give us ALL THINGS!

    This is not in contradiction to greed and the love of money being a sin that Jesus wants to save us from.

    I have been saved from greed, covetousness and the love of money. But god is still generous and has given me tens of millions of dollars- BUT I HAVENT sought it, lusted after it , sewed seeds to get it, tithed to get it nor have I “believed ” for it- THAT IS UTTER NONSENSE!!!!
    I was given tens of millions of dollars because God decided to do it- and tomorrow God might decide to take it away- my relationship with Jesus HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH FINANCIAL GAIN.

    I am a millionaire and I say by the power f the Spirit the prosperity gospel is sin!!!
    It glorifies covetousness and greed and makes god out to be a golden calf.

    The gospel isn’t about wealth in this age. It is about being saved from our self centred loveless hearts and to wait for Jesus to bring wealth in the ages to come.

  41. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    I thank the Father for blessing you greatly Barry.
    However it was Yeshua who had all to do with
    my gain. I did not tithe to get it, or sew seeds to get it
    either.
    The Father is generous you said– that is love, to give your fullest advantage. A Divine love not compared to what we call love.

  42. Anything that can be taken away from us isn’t the real thing…

    Even communication with each other – like this or in person – isn’t the real thing…

    The only thing that can’t be taken away from us is the Voice of God – the Holy Spirit – speaking to us from within…

    From within our new spirit He speaks to us…

    And us speaking back to the Lord from within…

    Our communion with the Lord within our new spirit with His Holy Spirit can’t be taken away from us… :-)

    Anything else – including the scriptures – can be taken away from us…

    The Lord kind of brought that to my attention recently… :-)

  43. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    Solomon was not a prosperity preacher. God gave him money not because Solomon asked for it, believed for it, sewed into it, claimed it nor even wanted it.

    God said to him, “Because you have asked this thing and have not asked for yourself long life, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have you asked for the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself discernment to understand justice, behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you. I have also given you what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that there will not be any among the kings like you all your days. (1 Kings 3:11-13 NASB)

    God gave Solomon money BECAUSE HE DIDNT ASK FOR IT OR DESIRE IT!!!

    And as for this bogus teaching on God giving to us because we sew into a prosperous ministry: Jesus said, “Look at the birds of the air they NEITHER SEW NOR REAP – yet your father in heaven feeds them.”

    Jesus doesn’t agree with this foolish doctrine of being blessed because you sew into a certain ministry. Jesus says God sends His rain on the wicked and the righteous. God said to that wicked King Cyrus- ” I am going to give you the treasures hidden in darkness BECAUSE I AM GOD!!!!”
    Amen , we treat God as if he some kind of cosmic banking machine- put your coin in and “poof” out will come some money from God!

  44. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    Ok. Barry,
    I did not ask for money either.
    But there is a witness that says if you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly, as well as with bountifully. 2nd Cor.9:5. Nevertheless God loves a cheerful giver.

  45. Anna Mathew Nov 7th 2013

    I shall never forget a preacher lady I know …she sat in her swivel chair, twirling her drink in her bejewelled fingers, fresh from the make up parlour and she said”Oh, these prosperity preachers…”
    I think every one finds fault with every one else..I’d rather be prosperous and be able to give freely than be poor as a rat and depend on handouts..
    I give and I know God will return double but I don’t do it for the return ..I do it cos I love Him.And then I get prosperous and so who is to blame?
    I’ m pretty sure that those who speak against prosperity preachers are not living in trailers and tunnels, but in plush homes.

  46. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    Judas was a prosperity preacher- he saw Jesus as a means to financial gain and when he realized that Jesus wasn’t going to make him rich Judas sold Jesus out for money.

    Every prosperity preacher today is still selling JESUS FOR MONEY!

    When Simon the Sorcerer tried to buy the blessings of God by sewing money into the ministry of Peter and John here is what Peter said to Simon:

    But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” (Acts 8:20-23 NASB)

    Peter and John weren’t prosperity preachers either. Neither of those poor apostles had a plug nickel in their pockets to offer that beggar at the beautiful gate:
    But Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene-walk!” (Acts 3:6 NASB)

    The PROPSPERITY preachers today can no longer say, “Silver and gold have I none because they are lining their pockets with gold and silver- BUT NEITHER CAN THEY SAY THIS:
    In the name of Jesus walk! Like simon they only have sorcery to wow the people but they have no power with God to make the poor lame beggar rise up and walk.

  47. Barry Schmidt Nov 7th 2013

    Yes the holy other worldly Elijah is still speaking today ! Baal was the god of money and power and blessings – that’s why Ahab and Jezebel worshipped Baal- because they wanted a god who would make them independently wealthy so they didn’t have to live hand to mouth like the rest of God preachers and kings- Gods hand to their mouth!

    And Elijah was taunting and scoffing at those PROPSPERITY prophets of Baal- and Elijah is still taunting them today!!!

  48. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    silver/redemption and gold/righteousness, have I none but such as I have, I give you, in the Name of Yeshua….
    Redemption is from Yehsua righteousness is from Yeshua. The man was lame and crippled in his walk, but in that name above all names, he got up and walked.
    He gave the man what Yeshua has, who lacks nothing, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and we in Him.
    You have charlatans in everything. If it were not valid, why would the enemy counterfeit it?

    Judas wanted to hurry and usher in the Kingdom, and it failed, and he even returned the money.

  49. The primary issue is not the silver and gold. It is the heart of the individual, and the motive of the preacher.
    God has no problem with his people having money. The problem is when the people want the money and try to buy the blessings from God.
    I have been in the prosperity group. I have giving thousands to ministries, hoping to get a return on my investment. Because my heart was not right at that time I received nothing. God is not obligated to give blessings just because we pay our “indulgences”.
    If your heart is right with God, and your motive is pure, then God can bless you to be a blessing, not to consume it on your own personal desires.

  50. The other very important thing here is….someone said they would never go back to that church again.

    You will never find what you are looking for in a building.

    WE DONT ..GO..TO CHURCH (A BUILDING)

    WE ARE THE CHURCH…24/7

    I find SIMPLE CHURCH, HOUSE CHURCH, ORGANIC CHURCH takes care of the building problem. And the host of other problems that it creates.

    you can learn more about where the church building came from and a host of other un Biblical weekly church practices…then you decide who and what you want to support THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    OR…THE KINGDOM OF MAN.

    I AM NOT SO MUCH INTERESTED IN….THE MAN OF GOD.

    AS I AM IN THE GOD OF MAN.

    stay thirsty my friends….larry

  51. Daniel Nov 7th 2013

    Luke 6:20-26 NASB

    And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

    I have yet to hear a message preached on this passage. Yes, most prefer Matthew’s version of the beautitudes because they can read into them what they want. Luke makes it abundently clear (uh oh I used a word prosperity preachers like, abundent) that Jesus totally redefined blessedness and woefulness. The one who is blessed is the poor, tearful, hungry, and hated disciple. The follower of Christ that has forsaken all to come after Christ. Luke focused the most on the cost of discipleship (a subject that is serverely undertaught, how are we to make disciples when we aren’t even paying attention to Jesus’ requirements for us being one?) Paul lived out the call above, he paid the price, so that when the Corinthians began ruling and reigning as kings he could simply remind them of his walk and tell them “follow my example”.

  52. marilyn Nov 7th 2013

    David Marsh-can you explain what there is in what you have seen in Torbin Sondergaard that you compare him to the apostles in Acts, to Elijah, Paul, Peter, Timothy and Stephen?! “If ever a man was anointed and walking after the Holy Spirit it is Torbin.”?! Have you watched his video where he tells us to just have those that are needing healing to lay their hands on the TV? Very interested to hear what causes you to hold this man in such high esteem.

  53. David Marsh Nov 7th 2013

    Marilyn,
    Happy to answer your question.
    Yes, i have studied the likes of Wigglesworth for many years.
    Marilyn, I would refer you to read Torbin’s books (or part thereof) on his web site first. From these you can read his life testimony and see his heart.
    It is not just the fact that Torbin has received the Holy Spirit with power or that he has fasted twice for 40 days to seek more of Jesus.
    It is his true abandonment of all worldly things to pursue our Lord Jesus.
    It is his continual hunger to know and understand the ways of the Holy Spirit.
    It is his unswerving desire to obey all that the Holy Spirit asks him to do,
    It is the amazing results that he is continually seeing from his prayers for healing.
    It is the continual success of praying for Christians to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and they receive it.
    It is his continual desire to see others do exactly what he is doing in obeying the Holy Spirit and the Scripture.
    It is his true humility.
    It is his flowing perfectly with everything that I researched for my book on how to walk with Jesus in the Supernatural realm of the Holy Spirit ( The APOSTLES’ Handbook ) even though Torbin has never read my book.

    It is the genuine response from unsaved strangers in the streets all testifying of their healing on Torbin’s utube.

    It is my own healing from accepting Torbin’s prayer for me through the utube lesson that you mention. And I would remind you of Paul’s prayer over pieces of cloth that were simply laid over the sick and they recovered.

    It is the content of Torbin’s teaching that reasonably explains the way back to biblical The Book of Acts powerful church – spot on.

    Marilyn, may I encourage you to look further into what Torbin is doing via his utube exploits – and more importantly what he is teaching.
    The last reformation has begun. It is a trickle and will soon enough turn into a torrent. You wont want to miss this one.

    God bless you Marilyn.
    If you want ( or anyone else here) you are most welcome to a free pdf copy of my book

    God bless you all

    David Marsh. [email protected]

  54. Robert Donaldson Nov 7th 2013

    Matthew 19:21 (KJV)
    [21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

  55. watchful Nov 7th 2013

    Doesn’t our reason for living have to do with God being glorified through us………..He can be glorified one way through those among us who live by faith day to day as well as another way through those who have somewhat more than they need. By faith the sacrifice of a little boys lunch was made to feed thousands. The gospel is not about money and prospering per se. Jesus is our example, so when we look to Him we can see how He was concerning money and “success in life”. When we have, we give, when we don’t have, we trust and let our faith be tried….either way it is glorifying to the Lord. So that those who have, don’t have too much, and those that don’t have, have enough. Overall, God’s ideas of prosperity in scripture don’t seem to be the same as the carnal idea of it, and the riches written of in the OT were generally written as ensamples of the spiritual riches that were to come with the new covenant.

    I have seen where in people of the world even the desire to help the poor can come from wanting to be as God and “eliminating poverty”, whereas Jesus said the poor we shall always have with us. Worldly charity can actually be in defiance against God’s judgment and discipline and humbling of man.

  56. Greetings in the Name of the Most High Father and His Son our Savior Jesus Christ.
    I wish to preface this word by saying, I have the utmost respect for both David Wilkerson and the other men who are named herein. These men exemplified faithfulness according to the level of their knowledge, but as with each of us, were not perfect.
    I am a pastor. My wife and I have struggled for 30 years financially, many times having to patiently endure hardship as we waited for the manifestation to break forth. We avoid broadcasting our needs as it borders on manipulation or gives the enemies of Christ and occasion to blaspheme or speak evil of His Name – most meetings I have to be reminded to receive an offering. I do not have it within me to be yet another tax upon the struggling people – and so it is today. I started my own business to supplement the gospel as I have a firm conviction that each message I preach must be one that will work in both the West as well as in the Congo. Sowing of seed simply comes down to obedience to what God says period. Simply give when and what He says and it works the same across the board producing a crop or manifestation wherever we may be – sometimes immediately.

    A Word to the Church –
    Upon reading this article, we receive insight into what may have led to Brother Wilkerson’s untimely removal from the Church scene. Being lukewarm i.e. mixing law with grace results in being disqualified as the mouthpiece of Christ visa vi spewed out. Not out of salvation – but as it were having the candlestick or sphere of influence snuffed out.
    I believe God wishes to edify, comfort and exhort those who condemn the Body of Christ today, to CEASE AND DESIST NOW from this wickedness – “Who is he who condemns?” Satan the accuser of the Brethren.. God will not excuse the preacher, irrespective of how well known or great they may appear to be who condemns – this is dangerous ground and fair WARNING is now given to this and all ministries who believe it is their duty to clean up the Church – as though they can improve upon the ministry of Christ and the Holy Ghost..
    The same demise has resulted in the downfall of many ministers and or ministries. I call it the ELIJAH EFFECT.
    When Jesus took Peter, James and John upon the mount where he was transfigured they saw the glory of His grace and Majesty and wanted to erect shrines for both Moses and Elijah who appeared with Him to witness and establish the fulfillment of both their ministries – but God answered out of heaven and said; “This is My Beloved Son, hear Him”. In other words, the dispensation of Moses and the law-covenant is over and the spirit of Elijah ended with John the Baptist who preached the baptism of repentance.
    I know this Word will not be well received by many here today and I wish it were not so. I do not claim to be prophet, but please take note, for as those who continue to trample under foot the Spirit of grace will continue to be taken out of the way.
    Those who claim to be or to be moved by the Spirit of Elijah will die or – will be taken home to heaven. Why? It is an anti-grace message which is therefore anit-Christ. Jesus clearly said; “If you can hear it, John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come.” John represented the last of the OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS who preached the last WORK OF REPENTANCE i.e. PHYICAL BAPTISM. But said He; “One comes after me…and He will baptize you with Holy Ghost and with fire…” spiritual baptism.
    John’s Elijah spirit MUST decrease while Jesus must increase – that is to say, the glorious gospel of grace must increase. Now he that has ears to hear,let him/her hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.
    Repent of your spirit of condemnation which majors on flesh and neglects the Spirit of Grace which comes through identification with ONLY WHAT JESUS DID for our soul’s sake. Judgment first begins at the house of the Lord and everyone who has influence in the Body of Christ who claims to speak by the spirit or anointing of Elijah or who dare claims to be such in the dispensation of grace will be taken out of the way.
    David Wilkerson said in this article; “Every time I cry out against the prosperity doctrine, I sense the spirit and power of Elijah upon me.” Woe to every ministry who claims to sense or be moved by the spirit of Elijah or John the Baptist. (There is no longer a John the Baptist Ministry) Preaching Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead is the only acceptable message today – the message of grace alone. What happened to the ministries and lives of those claiming to be in association with Elijah? Alexander Dowie used mightily of God until he claimed to be Elijah. William Branham used mightily until…the same. Recently the Elijah groups of the prophetic movements brushed off the scene of influence. The Baptist Church across the Church age have rejected Pentecost and its power and has been bypassed.
    This is dangerous ground to mix law with grace – Repent therefore and return to Christ plus nothing – you that have ears to hear.
    Finally, a baptism of repentance and a baptism of power, let us examine what they were and are.
    Jesus was baptized by John because He repented. To repent means to have turned 180 degrees opposite of a former way of doing things. He did not repent of sin, for He knew no sin, but of something else.
    Jordan represents DEATH and BURIAL.Thus Christ under the hand of John the Baptist’s final official act repented of any further life as the SON OR GOD until He would be glorified after His finished work at the cross. He went down into the water and left His power’s of deity off limits to His use.
    He (Jesus) went down into the water (grave) the SON OF GOD and came up the SON OF MAN and refused to act any further with deity powers until returning to His former glory in heaven. Jesus was not baptized for our example, it was for Him a baptism of repentance and likewise it is for those who believe. Not a repentance of SINS but of SIN and its nature of trying to save self by virtue of anything apart from faith in Jesus Christ’s finished work i.e. law keeping or any other form of self righteous religion.
    So we, in baptism, go down as a SON OF MAN and come up as the SON OF GOD. “As many as who received Him, to them gave He power to become the Son’s of God.”
    Interestingly enough, the first thing Satan tried to get Christ to do after His baptism was to act as the Son of God. “If you be the Son of God command these stones that they may become bread!” “Jesus answered, MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God!” Thus, the same is true for us on the opposite scope. He tempts us to act as the sons of men instead of as the son,s of God. The difference is vast.
    My beloved the flesh is dead because of sin and the spirit is life because of righteousness. Reckon yourselves to be dead in Christ.
    Then and then only will the resurrection power come upon us, giving us the ability to live a sinless life.
    We must stop preaching to or against the flesh that can only do what is evil in the sight of the Lord at its best and begin to edify,exhort and comfort one another. Are you a prophet? 1 Cor 14:3 “But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.” Not CONDEMNATION! For Christ sake and your own, I beg you in Christ, please stop condemning the Body of Christ! This word concluded.

    Note: Every day I present my entire spirit, soul and body to God for His will and purpose. I am not my own, I am bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus. My Covenant with God is summed up this way. “Everything that is mine is Christ’s and everything that is Christ’s is mine. The Body of Christ must unify. The grace of God is sufficient for every one that names the name of Christ in faith.
    In the Master’s service I bless you all.
    Brother Wade

  57. Correction of typo. (SON OR GOD) unintended SHOULD BE (SON OF GOD)
    Greetings in the Name of the Most High Father and His Son our Savior Jesus Christ.
    I wish to preface this word by saying, I have the utmost respect for both David Wilkerson and the other men who are named herein. These men exemplified faithfulness according to the level of their knowledge, but as with each of us, were not perfect.
    I am a pastor. My wife and I have struggled for 30 years financially, many times having to patiently endure hardship as we waited for the manifestation to break forth. We avoid broadcasting our needs as it borders on manipulation or gives the enemies of Christ and occasion to blaspheme or speak evil of His Name – most meetings I have to be reminded to receive an offering. I do not have it within me to be yet another tax upon the struggling people – and so it is today. I started my own business to supplement the gospel as I have a firm conviction that each message I preach must be one that will work in both the West as well as in the Congo. Sowing of seed simply comes down to obedience to what God says period. Simply give when and what He says and it works the same across the board producing a crop or manifestation wherever we may be – sometimes immediately.

    A Word to the Church –
    Upon reading this article, we receive insight into what may have led to Brother Wilkerson’s untimely removal from the Church scene. Being lukewarm i.e. mixing law with grace results in being disqualified as the mouthpiece of Christ visa vi spewed out. Not out of salvation – but as it were having the candlestick or sphere of influence snuffed out.
    I believe God wishes to edify, comfort and exhort those who condemn the Body of Christ today, to CEASE AND DESIST NOW from this wickedness – “Who is he who condemns?” Satan the accuser of the Brethren.. God will not excuse the preacher, irrespective of how well known or great they may appear to be who condemns – this is dangerous ground and fair WARNING is now given to this and all ministries who believe it is their duty to clean up the Church – as though they can improve upon the ministry of Christ and the Holy Ghost..
    The same demise has resulted in the downfall of many ministers and or ministries. I call it the ELIJAH EFFECT.
    When Jesus took Peter, James and John upon the mount where he was transfigured they saw the glory of His grace and Majesty and wanted to erect shrines for both Moses and Elijah who appeared with Him to witness and establish the fulfillment of both their ministries – but God answered out of heaven and said; “This is My Beloved Son, hear Him”. In other words, the dispensation of Moses and the law-covenant is over and the spirit of Elijah ended with John the Baptist who preached the baptism of repentance.
    I know this Word will not be well received by many here today and I wish it were not so. I do not claim to be prophet, but please take note, for as those who continue to trample under foot the Spirit of grace will continue to be taken out of the way.
    Those who claim to be or to be moved by the Spirit of Elijah will die or – will be taken home to heaven. Why? It is an anti-grace message which is therefore anit-Christ. Jesus clearly said; “If you can hear it, John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come.” John represented the last of the OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS who preached the last WORK OF REPENTANCE i.e. PHYICAL BAPTISM. But said He; “One comes after me…and He will baptize you with Holy Ghost and with fire…” spiritual baptism.
    John’s Elijah spirit MUST decrease while Jesus must increase – that is to say, the glorious gospel of grace must increase. Now he that has ears to hear,let him/her hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.
    Repent of your spirit of condemnation which majors on flesh and neglects the Spirit of Grace which comes through identification with ONLY WHAT JESUS DID for our soul’s sake. Judgment first begins at the house of the Lord and everyone who has influence in the Body of Christ who claims to speak by the spirit or anointing of Elijah or who dare claims to be such in the dispensation of grace will be taken out of the way.
    David Wilkerson said in this article; “Every time I cry out against the prosperity doctrine, I sense the spirit and power of Elijah upon me.” Woe to every ministry who claims to sense or be moved by the spirit of Elijah or John the Baptist. (There is no longer a John the Baptist Ministry) Preaching Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead is the only acceptable message today – the message of grace alone. What happened to the ministries and lives of those claiming to be in association with Elijah? Alexander Dowie used mightily of God until he claimed to be Elijah. William Branham used mightily until…the same. Recently the Elijah groups of the prophetic movements brushed off the scene of influence. The Baptist Church across the Church age have rejected Pentecost and its power and has been bypassed.
    This is dangerous ground to mix law with grace – Repent therefore and return to Christ plus nothing – you that have ears to hear.
    Finally, a baptism of repentance and a baptism of power, let us examine what they were and are.
    Jesus was baptized by John because He repented. To repent means to have turned 180 degrees opposite of a former way of doing things. He did not repent of sin, for He knew no sin, but of something else.
    Jordan represents DEATH and BURIAL.Thus Christ under the hand of John the Baptist’s final official act repented of any further life as the SON OF GOD (correction edit made) until He would be glorified after His finished work at the cross. He went down into the water and left His power’s of deity off limits to His use.
    He (Jesus) went down into the water (grave) the SON OF GOD and came up the SON OF MAN and refused to act any further with deity powers until returning to His former glory in heaven. Jesus was not baptized for our example, it was for Him a baptism of repentance and likewise it is for those who believe. Not a repentance of SINS but of SIN and its nature of trying to save self by virtue of anything apart from faith in Jesus Christ’s finished work i.e. law keeping or any other form of self righteous religion.
    So we, in baptism, go down as a SON OF MAN and come up as the SON OF GOD. “As many as who received Him, to them gave He power to become the Son’s of God.”
    Interestingly enough, the first thing Satan tried to get Christ to do after His baptism was to act as the Son of God. “If you be the Son of God command these stones that they may become bread!” “Jesus answered, MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God!” Thus, the same is true for us on the opposite scope. He tempts us to act as the sons of men instead of as the son,s of God. The difference is vast.
    My beloved the flesh is dead because of sin and the spirit is life because of righteousness. Reckon yourselves to be dead in Christ.
    Then and then only will the resurrection power come upon us, giving us the ability to live a sinless life.
    We must stop preaching to or against the flesh that can only do what is evil in the sight of the Lord at its best and begin to edify,exhort and comfort one another. Are you a prophet? 1 Cor 14:3 “But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.” Not CONDEMNATION! For Christ sake and your own, I beg you in Christ, please stop condemning the Body of Christ! This word concluded.

    Note: Every day I present my entire spirit, soul and body to God for His will and purpose. I am not my own, I am bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus. My Covenant with God is summed up this way. “Everything that is mine is Christ’s and everything that is Christ’s is mine. The Body of Christ must unify. The grace of God is sufficient for every one that names the name of Christ in faith.
    In the Master’s service I bless you all.
    Brother Wade

  58. Carina Nov 7th 2013

    Really, Brother Wade?
    Then what about the seven letters John the Apostle received for the churches?
    “I have this against you…”
    What about the repeated warnings Paul gave to the churches?
    “Shall we sin, then, that grace may abound?” “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.”
    If these sound like condemnation to you, then you should disregard a lot of the New Testament. And the whole of the Old Testament, of course… Which reminds me of
    1 Corinthians 10
    For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
    Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

    The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that MANY who think they have a special place in the Kingdom will be actually not be allowed to enter. And that MANY false prophets and teachers will come and deceive MANY.

    If you can’t tell the difference between telling the truth to warn people of error and condemning people whom God calls righteous, you should read the Bible again.

  59. marilyn Nov 7th 2013

    Brother Wade- your comment contained many words and was difficult to wade through. Your words come across as condemning and “holier than thou.” God tells us in Psalm 139:16 that all the days of our lives have been written. Please read 1 Cor. 4:1-5 below.

    “This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.”

  60. Carina Nov 7th 2013

    Thinking again on the topic of grace and grace only, this verse came to mind.

    For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    For us to know we need grace, truth must come first. What truth? The realization that we need grace to be saved. For us to want Jesus as the Bread of Life and Living Water, we must be hungry and thirsty. For us to receive Him as Light, first we need to know we are blind and in darkness. Unless there is poverty in spirit, humility and a contrite heart, God will look at us from a distance.

    If we believe in the “gospel” of self-esteem, an easy, man-centered “gospel”, we’ll have Jesus as an accessory, a life-enhancer. A false gospel can never save, because it doesn’t lead you to the point of despairing of your self-effort to save yourself. That’s why people such as Wilkerson rightfully CONDEMN false teaching. Paul said, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed”. Accursed. Condemned. Anathema.

    Look at John 8
    So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    This are people who had some kind of belief in Him. But it’s clear this belief was NOT saving faith because of what Jesus says a few verses later.

    38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    and

    43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

    Interesting. John says these people believed in Him, but yet Jesus says here, You don’t believe me. You can take (and “believe”) a few verses of Jesus here and there, but it seems if you don’t take the whole of the package, he won’t accept your faith as authentic.

    Here we have Jesus speaking CONDEMNATION, in no uncertain terms, to people who were listening to Him. We can fool man, but we certainly can’t fool Him.

    John 2
    23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

    It is clear in Scripture that many who believe they believe are actually under the wrath of God. Do they need a grace message? Sure… But first they need to know that right now, because of their unrepentant spirit, because of their rebelliousness, their hardness of heart, their stiff-neck, they are under condemnation.

    I don’t know about you people, but I want to get to the end of my life and hear Jesus say to me, Depart from me, I never knew you!

  61. Inspired Nov 7th 2013

    Carina,
    Was thinking of that passage this morning as well.
    You are right, they all ate manna/truth, all had the same miracles, went to the same church, spoke the same language, had the same blood line, and history. But only a few survived. Why is it that the vast majority died but the ones who knew they had provision in spite of the circumstances, succeeded and thrived? Was it because they believed God to be their provider in all things?
    Joshua and Caleb took the land, giants looked like grasshoppers to them. The Lord told us to love our enemy. Adversity is an enemy. Adversity is to be over come. Debt was an adversity, a satan to me. How can I help someone if I am in debt/ He caused me to overcome it.
    The prosperity preachers have the correct message but are appropriating it wrong in many cases.
    2nd Cor.8:9 For you know the grace/favor of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that through His poverty you could become rich. If we are to be imitators of God, then how come we are in debt?

  62. David Marsh Nov 7th 2013

    Yes, there are many wonderful people who have become pastors. They have a heart of gold, their motive is true and they love the people they work tirelessly to shepherd.
    They rightly feel insulted when their best efforts are seemingly mocked and for this reason my heart does indeed go out to them.
    But they are following a tradition. A 1,700 year old tradition set down originally by the Catholic church.
    Mt friend pastor wade will be shocked that I am saying this but it is true.

    The leader that Andrew has been trying to describe is the Way that the apostles were appointed to ‘lead’ the N.T. church. Jesus saw to it that they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
    Jesus gave the apostles their LEADER. The Holy Spirit whom Jesus followed and obeyed during His 3 and one half years ministry.
    The apostles dared not use their own authority over the church. Every decision was relayed to the church from the Holy Spirit whom the apostles heard from and obeyed.
    Apostle or Pastor, Tradition or Scripture?
    God is about to bring in the last reformation. Will He use tradition or will He use His tried and true method as described in the Book of Acts?

    God bless

    David Marsh.

  63. To my beloved Brother’s and Sister’s who have commented. . . your kind words of love have been duly noted.

    Thank you for caring so much for the Body of Christ. Keep up the love and the unity of the Spirit and may He rest upon us all the Spirit of wisdom, love, discernment, counsel, unity, knowledge and grace as we come together, knowing that these are perilous times for the Church. As God is my witness, I mean no ill will toward any.

    blessings!
    Brother Wade

  64. Nothing wrong with seeing Jesus for MONEY. I also see Him for Salvation, Deliverance, Renewal of Mind, Forgiveness, Cleansing, Healing, Signs, Wonders, Miracles, Protection, Guidance.. in fact see Him for anything & [email protected]! Jesus is a 24/7 relationship and lifestyle in ALL things.

  65. Averyl Nov 8th 2013

    Seeing that some are still talking about leaders, I must share this with you as Andrew ended the previous topic before I had time to post again.
    Many years ago after leaving AoG, I went to fellowship with an un-named group at a marae hall, (indigenous meeting house), where there was no-one acting as leader as the Holy Spirit led, – what was sung, who, when & what was shared etc.. We knew who were our elders but they were never ordained by man & didn’t have titles or special functions.
    They all loved one another, & even when I backslid after the breakdown of my marriage, they kept helping in practical ways & never preaching at me.

    Sadly they have all died or moved away, but those precious brothers & sisters spoiled me forever! Always looking for something that lives up to their example!

  66. Carl Emerson Nov 8th 2013

    Friends,

    I had a vision several years back.

    I was in the central city and observed a church man in a ministers gown chatting idly with passers by.

    I confronted him with some indignation and said “would you have anything different to say if the world ended tomorrow?

    In my hand I had a handful of seed… In disgust I threw it in his face…

    Immediately, the Lords voice behind me said “The children have still not been fed !!!

    I knew immediately what He was saying – Don’t waste precious energy on trying to correct the church when you have in your hand that which will feed the my lost children.

    So my word in response to this growing debate is to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling…

    Find out what His purpose is for you, and walk in obedience to that call, surely then He will provide all that is required to fulfil His calling. (including money)

    Don’t be so concerned about you brother (whether in the ‘system’ or not) as He is able to make both you and Him stand and be justified with Jesus in the day of judgement.

    Avoid the distraction of argument and be seen to focus first on His personal calling and be faithful to walk in it, being a faithful Whitness among both the lost and the saved…

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  67. The key thing with leadership is that we know who we are to voluntarily line up under and who we are responsible for to lead before the Lord…

    This is a personal revelation before the Lord…

    This is the Lord speaking to us each personally…

    Obviously if the Lord speaks to us and says that we’re responsible to lead someone in a certain area He has to show us how do to this…

    We can’t go and force that person to follow us…

    Jesus called His disciples to come follow Him and they came…

    Elijah called Elisha to come follow him but he couldn’t force Elisha to come…

    Elisha came of his own free will and the prophetic mantle was transferred to him at Elijah’s departure…

    Paul called the entire Church – who he was responsible for while he was on earth – to imitate him as he imitated Christ…

    But it was their decision whether they would come or not…

    The Lord told me at the beginning of this year to submit to the leader of our Prophetic Intercessors Group here in Christchurch and also to the leader of the Local Fellowship Group here in Christchurch which He’d told me to attend…

    I did this and was blessed – I’ve learnt so much this year and met some new people who I’d never met before and been enriched with their fellowship and learned from them…

    Didn’t mean that I agreed with everything which went on in each and every meeting of either group but I supported them both in prayer – I saw what I needed to see and committed it to the Lord in prayer – this is what He wanted me to do…

    So I was both under their authority – learning from them – and supporting them from underneath – in intercession…

    There are others – not involved in either of these groups – who I know I’ve been looking after – again coming underneath to support them – helping them to grow – in intercession…

    I don’t even think they know this – and they don’t need to know – but I know that I’m responsible to pray – it’s a burden which the Lord has given me in intercession – and they will come through – they will – for He will be successful in me in His intercession…

    The other responsibility I have is towards my wife and family to come underneath and support them in intercession and to be there for them – practically – I’ve been endeavouring to grow in this this year – and believe I’ve seen results…

    God is very much interested in speaking personally to each one of us about who we are to voluntarily line up under and who we are to look after in Him…

    This is a personal journey before the Lord…

    This is not imposed by a third party…

    It is spoken by the Lord – to our spirits – and submitted to by us – at His direct command… :-)

    Love you all,

    Andrew

  68. ValleyAnt Nov 8th 2013

    Carl, I agree with you. The Lord has been talking to me about all the things you said above for some time now.

    When I came and read this article, I of course wanted to comment, but there was nothing in my spirit to say. I can respond to this.

    “The children have still not fed!” While ministers and pastors dally around with the world and frivolous issues, the people who are to be built up as the Body are hungry and thirsty. The Lord is speaking to me more today and in these days about focusing on the ministry I’m called to and going in that direction regardless of what direction anyone else is going; to the Master, each one stands or falls.

    Now, regarding spiritual food, in early ’00, I had a dream: I was in a Chinese restaurant with my dad and younger brother, eating all-you-can eat Chinese food. The food was excellent, and I ate and ate… but I was never filled. After eating a while, my dad and brother got up and said it was time to go; but I told them wait as I ate and ate. Finally, I got up to leave with them. Presenting this dream to several people in my church at the time, they all said with one accord that it means that I was no longer being spiritually fed in that church and that the Lord was moving me on from there. (The Lord has, in my life, used restaurants several times when He spoke to me of ‘the House of the Lord’.) About two and a half weeks ago, I was in church I currently attend, and the Holy Spirit suddenly lifted and left. The Lord showed me that I’d eaten all the spiritual food He had for me there and drunk all the spiritual drink He had for me there and told me that it is time to move on from the church; therefore, I am keeping my eyes open until the Lord shows me the next place to go to. Each person is to be led by the Lord and not to be overly concerned about what others are doing as in the case with Peter being worried about what was going to happen to John. This is what the Lord is talking to me about now and will be what He is trying to talk to others about also.

    As Carl says, we are to find out His purpose for each one of us and walk in it so we can find rest for our souls (Jer. 6:16), because everyone has peace of mind and rest (because He tailor-makes an easy yoke and light burden for each particular person) when they are doing what they were created to do.

    “Your ears will hear a word behind you saying, ‘This is the way, walk in it’, whenever you turn to the right hand and whenever you turn to the left” (Isa. 30:21).

  69. ValleyAnt Nov 8th 2013

    AJH, I agree with you. The Lord certainly knows what He is doing, and there is ‘a reason to His wisdom’ and the way and order in which He wants things done.

  70. The prosperity preachers are telling us that they deserve to be rich because of their great anointing and that we must give to them, but the man of God- Elisha wouldn’t even accept an offering from a man healed under his ministry, and furthermore, when his servant went and collected the offering afterwards without Elisha’s consent, Elisha rebuked him and the Lord cursed him and his descendants forever (2 Kings 5).

    The prosperity preachers are telling us to serve them and to give to their ministry, but the Lord Jesus came to serve us and gave all that He had (Mark 10:45).

    The prosperity preachers are telling us to give to their ministries and that in return we will be extraordinarily blessed by God, but when a man in the Bible tried to give money to the Apostle Peter in return for the blessing of the Holy Ghost, the Apostle rebuked and condemned him (Acts 8:18-23).

    The false prosperity doctrines are designed to plant seeds of covetousness in the hearts of people who are seeking God, and through covetousness damn their souls, since no covetous person will inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

    Acts 3:1-10
    “Silver and gold have I none … but such as I have, that I give you”. That is the prosperity and inheritance the Lord has for each and every one. What we receive from Him we can then give to others.

    Ephesians 1:16-23
    We have been given every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ. That is our abundant life. That is our prosperity. It is a prosperity that only true followers of Jesus Christ can partake of. It is in the abundance of Christ that we prosper.

    As the apostle Paul put it, “the riches of the glory of the inheritance of the saints”! That is our great treasure. That is our great prosperity. From there, God gives us the ability to bear fruit to His glory and that is what our life is to be doing … bearing fruit that God may be glorified. As we exercise this unseen, untouched and unfelt prosperity, we bear fruit that will bring honour to God.

  71. watchful Nov 8th 2013

    (The ancient Israelites were looking for a man to be their king……. and God gave them one. It is a yearning that comes from the flesh, could be different reasons for each one, and healing may be needed, but in the end….it is still idolatry and we need to turn from it. Test the spirits.)

    I hadn’t seen the connection between Jezebel and false doctrine before, maybe I’m the last to see it, but this has been revelation to me. Revelation 2:

    2:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

    Rev 2:19

    I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

    Rev 2:20

    Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

    Rev 2:21

    And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

    False doctrine, because of what she *teaches* and it leads to spiritual fornication. This is speaking of mixture, halting between two opinions, serving two masters, and the harlot church not repenting of it. oh please let us come out of her, we are not to suffer her.

  72. watchful Nov 8th 2013

    …it’s a chosen Israelite (Ahab) married to a pagan queen and an adulterated gospel is their offspring….

  73. I would like to praise God for His many triumphs. Last night Sean Hannity ran a commercial free special during his show on Fox News Channel about Brother Billy Graham’s life and ministry. It was a pure Christ centered act of evangelism that in the midst of all the bad news truly offered genuine hope and warmed the hearts of many throughout the world. Praise the Name of Jesus! He alone is worthy to be praised.
    If you didn’t get to see it – do your heart good and look it up.
    Last night I believe the Holy Spirit said revival in America has begun! Pray for our renewal.
    grace and peace

    Brother Wade

  74. Paul FC Nov 8th 2013

    Is inspired on a wind up?

  75. Inspired Nov 8th 2013

    What is that supposed to mean Paul?
    Have I slandered or sarcastically answered anyone here?
    I pretty much said what AM is saying. If we are in debt we can not help those who really need a helping hand, can we? I have been blessed to work and have what I do have, not gain it by stealing, or doing things that are unlawful. The Father has prospered all things in my life.
    Be blessed Paul.

  76. The Father stands behind every surrender which He is asking us to make and He waits to see whether we will make it…

    Will we admit that we can’t make it?

    Will we be honest with Him?

    Will we expose the reality of our hearts before Him?

    Will we face the truth that He is trying to reveal by asking us to make that particular surrender?

    After we “come through” and admit those realities we find that He is there with “open arms” to welcome us and assure us and explain why He was doing what He was doing – but the process can be painful – it can be “black” and painful…

    “Black” because it feels like we’re alone and “battling uphill” to even come anywhere near the surrender which He is requiring…

    Who’s had that kind of experience?

    And yet the Holy Spirit is at work in our hearts to “bring us up” to the surrender which the Lord is requiring of us…

    I’ve had that experience just recently…

    Who is going to supply all our needs?

    Who has the plan for our lives?

    Who are we going to trust?

    Are we going to “make it happen” ourselves?

    Or are we going to “let go and let God” waiting in faith on Him to act and do the impossible which He has promised us that He will do?

    The root of control – which is Jezebellic – is wanting our own way…

    Wanting what I want now…

    And going out there and making it happen…

    Anything which we have to control is not of God…

    If we start something with control then we have to “prop it up” with control…

    The only way to start anything is under the Anointing…

    The Holy Spirit moving in us to enable us to head in a direction and then sustaining us in that direction…

    He is the only “free” power available to us – the spirit of control is not “free” – it is an evil task master…

    His Power is “free” because He is freely given to us – not to do our own thing like, “make my life work Holy Spirit” but in surrender to His Will, to His Lordship, He will then make the Father’s Plans work in our lives – so that they are fulfilled…

    And we get to see them being fulfilled…

    Which is our joy…

    We don’t “set the plans” but we submit to the plans and see them “come to pass”…

    :-)

  77. One problem I have always seen is this
    Some promote prosperity
    Some promote poverty
    Some promote the blessings

    The problem I have seen with those who promote prosperity is that if someone speaks against it they immediately put them in the poverty group, as if they think we are saying that Christians should live in debt and poverty.

    This post, at its roots, is not saying prosperity is against the Word of God.

    This post is simply saying that the prosperity preachers have taken it too far, and they are promoting greed rather than faith.

    I agree whole heartedly that God desires for His people to prosper, be in health, and walk in Holiness.

    I simply do not agree with the greed preaching, and I have been in it for years, I know what they teach, I have promoted it myself. God showed me the truth and now I only promote the blessings of God connected with obedience and truth.

  78. watchful Nov 8th 2013

    So glad when I see the Lord has delivered others from the false prosperity gospel………

  79. watchful Nov 8th 2013

    Andrew J……do you not think that Jezebel is the harlot church system…….which when God’s people are ‘married’ to it (unequally yoked) brings us under it’s control and influence? It turns even the well-meaning Ahabs into little despots. We are not to suffer it but come out of it….may God in His mercy open our eyes.

  80. watchful Nov 8th 2013

    I think Inspired’s comment about the gospel being a gospel of prosperity was meant to provoke us to think about what we mean or the bible means by the word prosperity……….but prosperity from the definitions I have read seems to be about earthly well-being, which is fine of itself, but it isn’t what the believer lives for because we are to have our minds set on things above, and in many cases giving up earthly “prosperity” is the price we pay to follow Jesus. I really doubt that Inspired considers earthly prosperity to be the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Hope not anyway.

    As for it only being a matter of source, God or the devil, I think there is more to it than that, because back when I was thinking that God was like Santa Claus and trying to source Him for what I thought were needs, He wouldn’t budge….it just didn’t work. Because He was teaching me that He changes not, so therefore I must – that He is God not me, that it is a matter of His will not mine, and that He doesn’t exist for me, but I for Him………and His will was that I should humble myself under His mighty hand in the carrying of my cross until such time as He deemed to begin raising me up. This is why those who say, Lord, Lord, didn’t we….? He answers them that only those who do the will of the Father will enter in. And the will of the Father is tied to the carrying of that cross, denying self and in that Way, following Jesus. And now I have discovered that the Way of the cross does work, praise be to God, letting patience have it’s perfect work.

  81. Hi watchful,

    I’ve blogged my thoughts on the Jezebel spirit at the following link:

    http://ahouseofprayerforthenations.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/the-jezebel-spirit/

    Love you,

    Andrew

  82. Roger Nov 8th 2013

    The Wonder of Your Cross – song by Robin Mark.

    Lord Jesus is Risen – He lives for evermore

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6fv9rkIIZo&list=RD02CuhijtYVVHw

  83. Barry Schmidt Nov 8th 2013

    Brother Wade- I have learned the secret of being content in every situation whether well fed or hungry – whether rich or porridge- I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.
    I have been poor and I have been rich in Christ- to me it doesn’t matter-
    Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.
    You cannot serve God and money- you will always hate and despise one or the other. It is impossible to love God and not hate and despise money and it is impossible to love money and love God at the same time- Jesus says they are mutually exclusive.
    Having riches doesn’t mean loving money . I have seen poor men who loved money and I have seen rich men who loved God and despised money.

    As for Brother David Wilkerson preaching against sin- why do you make the false assumption that to preach against sin is to preach law and condemnation.

    Jesus – full of grace and truth preached against sin- in fact by His own admission that is why folk hated him:
    So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. (John 7:6, 7 NASB)

    Jesus saves from sin- how can you preach Jesus as Savior without any preaching against sin? That is like saying I’m going to talk about the Dr without talking about sickness.

    Wherever Jesus is preached you will find preaching against sin. Wherever Jesus is in the house you will find the fruits of his presence – people will becoming aware of their sin ( by Him making them aware of their sin) and people will be being saved from their sins.

    Where there is no awareness of sin and confession of sin their IS no Presence OF THE SAVIOR- JESUS!

    It is law to preach against sin WITHOUT PREACHING CHRIST but you cannot preach Christ without preaching against sin.

    Preaching against sin isn’t condemnation- it is grace and calling to the salvation that is in Jesus.

    Their is no power over sins in the church as long as Jesus isn’t there testifying that what people are doing is evil.

  84. Barry Schmidt Nov 9th 2013

    Th grace message has been maligned and rejected because so many of the grace preachers refuse to speak of sin.
    We are saved by grace- from start to finish- but saved from WHAT by grace?
    Saved from SIN!!!
    The grace preachers say that only the Law makes us aware of our sin.
    That has no foundation in the Bible!

    Jesus makes us aware of our sin BY HIS GRACE ALONE before He saves us from our sins BY HIS GRACE ALONE.
    Preaching against sin is not mutually exclusive of preaching Christ and him crucified.
    CRUCIFIED FOR WHAT??
    Saved from WHAT???
    Grace for WHAT???
    One thing – sin!!!
    You can never preach Christ without preaching about sin .
    You can never preach grace without preaching about sin.
    You can never preach the cross without preaching about sin.
    You can never preach deliverance from divine wrath without preaching about sin.
    WRATH FOR WHAT????

    Why do we view confession and renunciation of sin BAD NEWS?
    The only reason we call that bad news is because we don’t want to stop sinning!!!
    As long as the church refuses to admit and confess sin the church will remain powerless, graceless and without anyone being transformed.
    As long as the church believes the lie that to preach about confession of sin is to preach law, self effort and condemnation their will be no true grace in the church.

    We need to preach repentance from sin and faith in Christ plus nothing.

  85. Barry Schmidt Nov 9th 2013

    This is why you never see any real change in the lives of those so called “grace message churches”
    They speak of grace and they have a creed of grace but they have NO ACTIVE GRACE WORKING TO CHANGE LIVES.

    Grace without an awareness of sin and without confessor of sin will never save! Not now not ever!
    Jesus saves BY MAKING US ACUTELY AWARE OF OUR SINS AND THEN BY SACING US FROM THOSE SINS!!!

    Show me a man who isn’t acutely aware of his sin and I will show you a man whom Jesus is not saving him from that sin.

    Every time Jesus saves us from a sin. Y grace He FIRST BRINGS THE FULL AWARENESS THAT WHAT WE ARE DOING, thinking or saying is evil! Only then can he deliver us from that evil.

    All my life I struggled with fear and anxiety. I saw it as a weakness, I saw it as an infirmity, I saw it as the result of my childhood neglect , I saw it as everything BUT SIN- and Jesus never saved me from my fear and anxiety.
    It was not until I admitted my anxiety was SIN- the SiIN OF UNBELIEF AND DISTRUST IN GOD- THAT JESUS SAVED ME FROM FEAR AND ANXIETY!

    The church can never get victory over her sins until she calls her lack of love, her greed, her unbelief, her lack of devotion and worldliness SIN SIN SIN SIN!
    Jesus only saves from sin- he doesn’t save victims- he saves victimizes! He doesn’t save the innocent – he saves the guilty.
    Until we plead guilty we can never be saved from our sins.

    It’s that simple!

  86. ZION AND BABYLON
    What we see here generally is the Babylonian captivity of God’s people in these places. Below is the difference between Babylon and Zion.

    *Zion is a people–the people of God; Babylon is a Thing–church institutions and systems.
    *Zion is a living organism; Babylon is characterized by organizations, institutions, and systems.
    *Zion consists of people who have been born into it; Babylon consists of people who have joined it or been voted into it.
    *Zion is a people who are called by the name of Jesus; Babylon is a people who are called by many different names that represent divisions within this Babylonian church system: Baptist, Catholic,
    Charismatic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and all the rest.
    *Zion is Jesus-centred; Babylon is self-centred.
    *Zion is living by the Spirit; Babylon is living after the flesh.
    *Zion is heavenly; Babylon is earthly.
    *Zion is grace; Babylon is law.
    *Zion is life; Babylon is death.
    *Zion is being; Babylon is doing.
    *Zion is rest; Babylon is works.
    *Zion is light; Babylon is darkness.
    *Zion is humility; Babylon is full of pride and arrogance
    *Zion is liberty in Christ; Babylon is bondage to the flesh.
    *Zion is the Kingdom of God; Babylon is the kingdoms of men.
    **Zion has Jesus Christ as her head; Babylon has elected or appointed men as their heads.
    *Zion is a Spirit-led people; Babylon is led by rules and regulations of man’s own making.
    *Zion is Spirit-sensitive; Babylon is man-pleasing.
    *Zion is obedience to the Holy Spirit; Babylon is busy church work.
    *Zion accomplishes things in Holy Spirit power (Zech. 4:6); Babylon tries to accomplish things in self strength.
    *Zion has its authority in the Word of God; Babylon places its authority in man-made doctrines.
    *Zion is one body in Christ Jesus as Lord; Babylon is sectarian and divisive, consisting of many divisions of people.
    *Zion worships in spirit and in truth; Babylon programs praise.
    *Zion preaches Christ and Him crucified; Babylon proclaims denominations, doctrines, heritage, traditions, creeds, personal views and opinions.
    *Zion is the priesthood of all believers; Babylon is the clergy system. The clergy are those who want to make a difference between themselves and others.
    *Zion answers to God as the highest authority; Babylon answers to men and their institutions as the authority.
    *Zion calls forth revelation; Babylon depends upon imagination

    So you can see clearly the current church is indeed the Babylonian captivity of God’s people.

  87. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    AMEN….Barry

    And Grace is the Spirit of God (Spirit of Grace, Wisdom, and Truth), and the Spirit of God is the POWER to keep us from sinning; deliver us from practicing sin; and the POWER to exchange our sin nature/soul/flesh for the Nature of the Man Jesus.

    That’s right…..The Holy Spirit/Spirit of God……the GIFT that keeps on GIVING!

    Is the Spirit of God ALIVE AND ACTIVE IN YOU? Or is there so much UNBELIEF, IDOLATRY, and other sins in your walk that you aren’t experiencing the VICTORIOUS ABUNDANT LIFE that we were all promised.
    This blog has talked “the wilderness” experience to death…..but AFTER the wilderness there is suppose to be VICTORY and OVERCOMING….and INCREASED FAITH AND FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT produced.

    Unless you know what sin and iniquity is, you can’t hate it.
    Unless you hate the sin, the Spirit of God won’t deliver you from it.

    It all boils down to WHO DO YOU LOVE MORE……??
    Almighty God or YOUR SELF-FLESH??
    YOUR NICE COZY JOB AND LIFESTYLE?
    YOUR NICE COZY FAMILY AND FRIENDS?

    You can’t use the wounds of the past as an excuse to stay in your sins and in your wilderness. The wilderness is for the purpose of PURIFICATION AND CONSECRATION.

    And I don’t define the “wilderness” experience as “out of church”………the “wilderness” experience is a SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE////TESTING////TRIALS////THE FIRE OF GOD FOR PURIFYING THE FLESH/DROSS FROM WITHIN US…..no matter where your location, situation, circumstance, or the people you are around.

  88. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    Ewwwww….that is a Good Word, AM!!

  89. Barry…Amen..
    The church system has elevated the term “SIN” as being something totally evil and against God. Then they have lowered the bar on our actions, excusing them as just mistakes, or bad choices, or human nature or whatever.
    The truth is SIN is missing the mark. Anything that is slightly off is still SIN. Each generation sees the past generation as the basic standard, then they take things a little more extreme, then the next generation sees the extreme as normal and they take it further. Soon all are missing the entire target so to compensate they just move their target to fit their aim.

  90. AM… I’ll throw in my Amen on that word too.

  91. It saddens me that so many still try to know Christ after the flesh. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The sting of death is sin, but the strength of sin is the LAW. Sin taking opportunity, produced in me all manner of evil desire. Apart from the law sin is dead. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for all those who are in Christ Jesus.
    The greater sin is that of condemnation. Get the beam out of your eyes. Knowest thou not that thou art poor and blind, miserable and naked. . .?
    David Wilkerson by his own admission struggled with the grace message, just as here seem to. But I will let him speak for himself…

    AN UNUSUAL WORD! – Comments?
    -extracts by David Wilkerson

    Recently the Holy Spirit gave me an unusual word, one that I did not want to hear! He said, “You are bound to a very limited vision of the Lord’s ocean of tender, loving mercies. You have endured much guilt, condemnation and fear because you have not allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal the vastness of My forgiving, healing, reconciling mercies. You do not know Me for My tenderness!”

    God showed me that this is a root cause for many giving up and
    falling away. When sin strikes—when Satan comes in like a flood,
    when you fall into some old habit or sin—the devil creates a
    bondage. First, the guilt comes flooding in, then fear fills your
    heart. A sense of total failure and helplessness overwhelms your
    soul. At this point, most believers run out of grace—because
    their view of God’s mercy is so limited.

    The devil does not want you to see God’s ocean of mercy; he
    wants you to see only a trickle! Because of our ignorance of the
    forgiving, restoring power of Christ’s love, we are destroyed. We
    run out of mercy for ourselves because we are horribly bound
    by a limited vision. Our eyes have not yet been opened to the
    endless mercies of our tender Father! We are so bound by a
    false, limited view of His mercies, we find it almost impossible
    to believe or accept what James said: “[We] have seen the end
    of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful (full of compassion), and
    of tender mercy” (James 5:11).

    This verse means, “God is easily crushed by our troubles and
    hurts. He feels our pain and our failures, and He is kind and
    compassionate to us. He loved us even when we were His
    enemy. Even when we offend Him, He is quick to help, restore
    and forgive us.”

    Can’t have it both ways.

    Brother Wade

  92. watchful Nov 9th 2013

    Amen, AM, the difference is night and day. And doesn’t the adversary have a subtle way of mixing the two together, so that those who are captive inside Babylon can’t see the forest for the trees, they can’t see what it really is.

    Lightning Storm, I THANK GOD, THANK GOD, THANK GOD, that He is still calling to come out and probably will until all who have ears to hear are set free of Babylon’s clutches……because these are the last days and she is falling and is about to fall, He doesn’t want them trapped inside to perish when not one stone is left on another. Wilderness is outside the camp…….entering the kingdom and travelling through wilderness (carrying our cross) are sort of concurrent experiences. As flesh dies over time, and we overcome, first one enemy then another, and another, more resurrection life comes in, healing, deliverance, revelation truth, rest, peace, etc. Never-ending abundance of it. Blessed are those whose hearts are set on pilgrimage, this is a life-long pilgrimage, or until Christ returns. If you feel you have somehow already attained perfection before then, then I am not sure what to say, it seems to go against all indications.

  93. watchful Nov 9th 2013

    Brother Wade, agree with you that the plank is condemnation. However, I would not want to tell anyone not to feel guilty when they have sinned, but would comfort them in the hope of God’s forgiveness and cleansing through the cross. Without Godly sorrow and being troubled by our sin, there is no real realization of the need for grace and none can be received.. Condemnation is part of the journey we need to travel through that when we overcome it by His Spirit we receive mercy. Grace can only be given when we recognize our need of it………like Jesus said it is the sick who need a doctor, it is for them He came. Those who think they are just fine thank you won’t be asking and looking for the remedy. Not that we are the ones who throw condemnation at anybody, as you are saying, it is the plank in our eye which we need to have removed ourselves, but if someone already feels condemned by the Law (which is why it was given, as a tutor to show us our need) then we can point them in the right direction….Hope that makes sense, I have had difficulty in finding the right way to explain it, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

  94. Watchful…you explained it quite well. Grace preached without the mention of sin becomes licentiousness. To preach grace we also need to preach why we need grace. It overcomes sin and does away with it. It forgives sin. Without sin there is no grace, for sin is the reason for God’s grace.

  95. Barry Schmidt Nov 9th 2013

    Brother Wade
    You said, ” God is really crushed by our troubles and hurts”
    Indeed he is which is why he sent his only begotten to die on the cross for our sins.

    Our troubles and hurts are produced by oohing short of sin. He went to root and jugular of our “troubles and hurts” my friend- which is sin.
    The Bible tells us sin is lawlessness (I Jn) and the love is the fulfillment of the law ( Rom 13) therefore sin is a lack of love.
    What causes our troubles and hurts ?
    Nothing but a lack of love. Sin is a refusal to receive love from God by faith and a refusal to give love away back to God and to others.

    Jesus comes and shows us our lack of love, shows us our refusal to receive love and give love away ( HE SHOWS US OUR SIN) and then He saves us from our sin.

    You continue to hold the false belief that pointing out sin or making one aware of their unlove is condemnation.

    This is where your theology and your thinking are not biblical .
    The most loving thing a Dr can do for his patient is to tell him what is making him sick. A dr who informs his patient what is making him sick is not being condemning but loving and caring.

    God loves us enough to tell us what is making us sick when he pints out our sin to us.
    It is selfish and fleshly ( of the flesh) to refuse to tell people what is making them sick and killing them. It is fleshly to say pointing out sin and calling for confession and renunciation of unlove (sin) is condemning.

    Jesus said, “The world can’t hate you but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil”

    Jesus said, ” unless you repent you will die in your sins”

    According to your view Jesus was being condemning and should be rebuked for testifying that what people do is evil.

    My friend I am absolutely astounded that you are a preacher of the gospel and yet you do not grasp or accept this basic and elementary truth.

  96. Barry Schmidt Nov 9th 2013

    Brother wade- you said,that our biggest problem is condemnation.
    This too is completely unbiblical.
    Sin ( our refusal to receive love and give love away) Is our biggest problem.

    Condemnation is merely ONE of the multitude of symptoms caused by the ONE MAJOR PROBLEM WHICH IS SIN.

    Jesus ddi not die merely die to release us from condemnation. That was merely one of the symptoms of sin for which he died.
    JESUS DIED TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS (change us from being selfish and unloving to selfless and loving).

    Condemnation ISNT OUR PROBLEM- SIN IS OUR PROBLEM.
    As long as you and other preachers like you continue to refuse to face the problem of sin but merely deal with the symptoms of sin ( condemnation) THE CHURCH WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE.
    You whitewash the sins of the people.

  97. Barry Schmidt Nov 9th 2013

    I see into the realm of the spirit and I see two camps in Gods house throwing stones at one another. I see that both camps have a particular perspective on the salvation that we have in Christ Jesus.
    I see the so called “hyper grace ” camp who clearly see the biblical truth that Jesus death saves us from the penalty of sin , adopting us into gods family as sons forever free from condemnation and forever free from our sins being held against us. Yet I see that camp refusing to acknowledge that Jesus not only saves us from the penalty of our sins but He ACTUALLY SAVES US FROM SINNING IN OUR EXPERIENCE.

    Then I see that in the other camp they are accurately perceiving that until God’s people face, admit and renounce their particular sins they will never stop sinning. They are hurling stones at the “grace” camp because of this.

    But somebody needs to come up on the top of the wall to see the big picture or we will bite and devour one another to death.
    1. We HAVE BEEN SAVED FROM SINS PENALTY.
    Our sins will never gain separate us from God because of the blood of Christ.
    Our sins will never be held against us because of the blood of Christ.
    We are forever free from any condemnation because of the blood of Christ.

    2. WE ARE BEING SAVED FROM OUR SINS
    We can never stop sinning and be saved from actually COMMITTING sins UNTIL we fully acknowledge them, see them for the evil they are, feel the weight and guilt that they bring and cry out to Jesus to deliver us from their power.

    3. WE WILL BE SAVED FROM THE PRESENCE OF OUR SINS
    Our hope is secure. Jesus will return one day SOON to give us a new perfectly sin free body and we will live in a perfectly sin free new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

    The end and purpose of God in all this is HIS OWN GLORY.
    It glorifies God to save His people from the penalty of sin.
    IT GLORIFIES GOD to save His people from committing sins in this age.
    IT WILL GLORIFY God to save His people from the presence of sin in the ages to come.

    God is NOT GLORIFIED WHEN THEIR ARE DIVISIONS IN THE CAMP!
    God is NOT GLORIFIED when Gods people speak of grace but have no grace to turn away from their wicked ways.

  98. marilyn Nov 9th 2013

    Excellent message to Brother Wade from Barry Schmidt. I too am astounded that you are a pastor. Next to the edifying and full of life message you posted from David Wilkerson (thank you), your words are without direction and empty. Seems you try to use God’s word to make your own point and condemn another. Which is exactly what you were doing in your words under your heading: A word to the church……Do you actually think you are God’s mouthpiece?!!!! That David Wilkerson was taken out by God because of his preaching?!!!!! Astounding!

  99. Paul FC Nov 9th 2013

    In spired said..”Have I slandered or sarcastically answered anyone here?
    I pretty much said what AM is saying. If we are in debt we can not help those who really need a helping hand, can we? I have been blessed to work and have what I do have, not gain it by stealing, or doing things that are unlawful. The Father has prospered all things in my life”.

    I meant no offense. I was addressing your earlier posts, which to be honest seemed off to me. Also the quote above is the mantra prosperity devotees often spout to justify their heresy.

  100. Inspired Nov 9th 2013

    Am, amen to your post.
    Lightening Storm, amen to ewwww. I heard words after reading that one word. Ewe/female sheep, and out of her comes the lamb. This is the same with all of us. Out of the ewe/you comes the lamb, when the ewe/you is slain, and self is renounced, and the one life/Christ in ewe/you is the one recognized in all our ways. It spoke to me, so thank you.
    Barry,
    You post a vision that I can only visualize to see. Yes people are throwing stones at each other. yet I look at that word “Stone” and see “Rock”, “Foundation”, and understand that the foundation of that “Rock” is grace.
    Paul,
    I was not offended, but was wondering if I owed an apology to anyone for offending them. Thank you for your honesty of it seeming to be off. However I will ask, how many have been in failures/lack of prosperity in any form and had to call on Him, or has no one needed Him for anything but salvation only?

  101. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    HOLINESS is commanded of us NOW.
    PERFECTION is commanded of us NOW.

    Find out what those 2 words actually mean.
    Find out WHO actually accomplishes these 2 conditions.
    Find out HOW this is actually accomplished.
    Find out WHEN this is actually accomplished.

    Those who deny that Holiness and Perfection are not accomplished NOW, DENY THE POWER of the Holy Spirit AND DENY THE TRUTH written in the scriptures.

    Our SELF-FLESH is the ENEMY of God and mankind.

    UNBELIEF is why there is only a REMNANT OF OVERCOMERS who inherit and are NOT erased from the BOOK OF LIFE.

    WHO INHERITS? WHO IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?

    NOT ALL the followers of Jesus, BUT ONLY THOSE WHO OVERCOME the “body of sin” within them, the world system (kingdom of darkness), and the devil.

    Rev 2:7
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’ …

    Rev 2: 11
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

    Rev 3:5
    ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the BOOK OF LIFE, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. …

    Rev 3:21
    ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I ALSO OVERCAME and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    Rev 21:7
    “He who overcomes will INHERIT these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

    WHEN are we called sons?

    When the One True God DECLARES that we have OVERCOME ALL ENEMIES, as Jesus did in His walk on earth, by the POWER of the Spirit of God WITHIN US.

    The SAME SPIRIT Who KEPT JESUS FROM SINNING, LIVES IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN.

    The SAME SPIRIT Who CREATED ALL the Heavens, the universes, ALL the things that have ever been in existence, LIVES IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN.

    The SAME SPIRIT Who raised people from the dead in the scriptures, LIVES IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN.

    Quit using the written word as excuses for continuing to wallow in the stench of your sins.
    Christ is coming for a HOLY BRIDE….PURE IN ALL OF HER THOUGHTS AND WAYS. With the Mind of Christ.

    If people continue to believe that you can’t VICTORIOUSLY OVERCOME the enemies of God until after you’re in Heaven, then that makes us no different then the people who reject Jesus Christ.

    They are always “struggling” to do “good” in this life too.

    That belief REVEALS that you’re only declaring Jesus as a good FIRE INSURANCE POLICY for the hereafter.

  102. watchful Nov 9th 2013

    Well Lightning Storm, I can’t pretend I don’t still have a lot to learn, but this is what I understand so far: We have already overcome….in Christ, if we are His. In this world you shall have trouble, but fear not because I have overcome the world. And we are also overcoming in the present tense, if in fact we are going from glory to glory. And that is accomplished as we carry our cross, denying self. We are saved by faith, but don’t forget the aspect that our faith will also be tested and proven in this life, as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Those who are in danger of being blotted out are those who are not on the narrow path, they are those who are not walking by faith, but are doing their own will and going by the light of their own fires. But if we endure to the end we shall be saved. However, I am always amazed at the strange assumptions so often made about others, I think it must be one of those things I have to expect but will never really stop being amazed at the presumptions. I’m just mindful that even Paul said he didn’t consider himself to have already attained the prize…seems to me then, that if we judge ourselves as being holy then maybe we are not yet as holy as we ought.

    Just occurred to me, but is it possible you are trying to bring the Law to bear on the new covenant, rather than letting the new covenant illuminate the Law..? Not meaning to criticize but just a possible observation in case it is helpful, that it’s almost as if you are not taking the cross into consideration somehow. That all we have under the new covenant is a more impossible Law to keep..? And what’s more, keep it NOW or else? If this is the case then I have laid down my life for no purpose and I am the biggest fool. Very discouraging news indeed on an already bleak November day.

  103. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    Mat 13:41-42 KJV

    The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM All things that OFFEND, and them which DO INIQUITY; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    (How does one get into God’s Kingdom? Through faith in the blood of Christ. Yet, those who are in the Kingdom of God are REQUIRED TO OVERCOME the world system, the devil and the SELF-FLESH)

    Luk 13:23-27 KJV Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?

    And He said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    26 Then shall ye begin to say, WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN YOUR PRESENCE, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

    Rev 21:7-8
    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    8 But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and IDOLATORS, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. .

    .. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    There is a LIE that’s been believed for a very long time that ALL who believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead and has forgiven them……..THAT THEY WILL RECEIVE AN EQUAL PLACE IN HEAVEN AND EVERYTHING IN HEAVEN THAT IS PROMISED, EQUALLY with the 12 Apostles, the Saints of the OT (the OT prophets; David; Moses; Abraham, Jacob, etc….) and all the martyrs for Jesus Christ.

    REALLY?? What SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS to think that a believer can FIT INTO THE WORLD’S LIFESTYLE of INDULGING their SELF-FLESH, and the SELF-FLESH of others, (spouses, children, grandchildren, church members, etc) and RECEIVE EQUALLY with the SAINTS of the OT and the NT who OVERCAME as Jesus did.

  104. watchful Nov 9th 2013

    Amen Lightning Storm, yes that’s quite right. All the more reason to praise God that we are overcoming out here in the wilderness. That’s just what it is for, and I thank and praise Him so much for leading us out here.

  105. So…Jesus paid it all for us on the cross, lived the holy life for us during his walk on the earth, and gave us His righteousness.
    Our flesh profits nothing, meaning that what we attempt to accomplish in the flesh means nothing to God. It is only faith in Jesus Christ that matters.
    Jesus lives out his holiness in us, by his spirit that dwells in us.
    Righteousness is a requirement to be accepted into the Kingdom of God.
    But it is the righteousness of Jesus, not our own.
    So if we are not living holy lives, then Jesus is not living out his righteousness in us.
    Then is Jesus in us?
    Does this mean that only people who are living perfect, holy lives are true Christians and the rest don’t actually have the Spirit of God in them?

    Somebody help me, I’m getting dizzy!!!

  106. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    One Day, the scribe angels will roll out everything recorded in our day to day lives…..and we will be WITHOUT EXCUSE.

    In the Eyes of God, the Israelites of the OT are without excuse, and they didn’t even have the POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVING INSIDE OF THEM…..how much more are we without excuse to live Holy and Perfect in our lifetime???

    Every instance that the Truth was brought into our life through whatever circumstance, situation, or person that the Spirit of God deems as a part of our destiny…….
    will be recorded on those scrolls….along with the recording of our response to the Truth.

    Unless we BELIEVE THE TRUTH that is presented to us at the time ,OR unless we REPENT for our UNBELIEF in the Truth presented to us, before its too late…..

    Then the warnings to those who are BELIEVERS ARE going to be APPLIED. They will not enter; there will be weeping, mourning, and gnashing of teeth right outside the Gates of New Jerusalem.

    (The warnings are found in the letters to the churches plus parable of the 10 virgins; parables of the servants; parable of the trees)

  107. watchful Nov 9th 2013

    The word prosper occurs once in the whole NT. And that’s probably about how much attention we should pay to it, otherwise it serves no purpose but to confuse the issue. Meantime I just rejoice to hear that others have walked away from what is not just the right message with a wrong slant, but is an entire false gospel package. So much so that I had to be delivered of it and restored to the true gospel…….thankfully! So I think good advice would be to throw the whole thing out and begin again, since we know that bitter and sweet don’t come from the same fountain.

  108. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    You got it right Donald…until the very end.

    The warnings are to BELIEVERS….those who name the name of Jesus Christ as their Savior.

    QUOTE FROM DONALD
    Does this mean that only people who are living perfect, holy lives are true Christians and the rest don’t actually have the Spirit of God in them?
    UNQUOTE

    What it means is: that those believers ONLY want Jesus Christ as FIRE INSURANCE.

    They ACKNOWLEDGE Jesus Christ as their SAVIOR, but by their FRUIT OF UNBELIEF, THEY DENY JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR MASTER AND THEIR KING.

    THEY DENY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD HIS RIGHTFUL AUTHORITY because of their UNBELIEF.

    2Ti 3:5 KJV
    Having a form of godliness, but DENYING THE POWER thereof: from such turn away.

    And the SELF-FLESH is called out in the verses above verse 5.

    2Ti 3:1-4 KJV
    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

  109. Lightning Storm… Exactly to what extent of righteousness are we required to live out? If we commit a sin, for example, work is not going too smooth and we get upset and speak out some unGodly words. Or we get angry at our spouse and say something we shouldn’t. Or, we watch something on television that is immoral and just let it pass. How holy are we to be in order to be considered overcomers?

  110. Another example, I have a friend that struggles with a bad temper. He knows he should not let it get the best of him, but at times it does, he blows up at someone, then he feels he has failed again. He repents but he has not overcome his bad temper.

  111. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    1Th 5:19 KJV
    QUENCH NOT the Spirit.

    Eph 4:30 KJV
    And GRIEVE NOT the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Act 5:3-4, 9 KJV

    But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to LIE TO THE HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT OF GOD, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. …

    9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to TEMPT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    ***********************************************
    We are WARNED to not DENY the AUTHORITY AND POWER of the Spirit of God within us.

    The Spirit of God is the POWER that we are to SUBMIT TO in our daily walk….if we do not, then we are under the warnings given to believers; we are not VICTORIOUS; we do not COME OUT OF THE WILDERNESS; we are not OVERCOMERS; we are not TRANSFORMED; AND according the written word of God, we are NO LONGER written in the Book of Life.

    Those are not my words…those are the words of scripture…ONLY OVERCOMERS….not “those who are overcoming….but who HAVE OVERCOME…PAST TENSE” are written in the Book of Life.

    Twist it all you want….that doesn’t change the Truth when you are facing the Great White Throne of Judgment and the angelic scribes that have recorded every jot and tittle.

  112. One thing I don’t understand, you use the term
    “the Spirit of God within us” and “those believers”. How can the Spirit of God be in us and we can be a believer that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but yet be rejected because we did not measure up to perfection in our current life in the flesh?

  113. Andrew Nov 9th 2013

    “Walking in the Spirit” is the key

    I have entire sermons on all this

    “Walking in Romans 8″ is one. Take a listen in the “Audio” section on this site.

    Bless you!

    -Andrew Strom

  114. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    The scriptures state that we are to OVERCOME as Jesus OVERCAME. The self-flesh; the devil; and the world system.

    While on earth during His ministry…..Jesus Christ walked as a man……a man who was INDWELT with the Spirit of God…a man who was FILLED with the Spirit of God…..a man who walked SUBMITTED TO THE RULE OF HIS FATHER AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
    Jesus was EMPOWERED by the Spirit of God.
    Jesus was ANOINTED by the Spirit of God.

    The Power and Authority that Jesus had as a man those 3 1/2 years CAME FROM THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD/HOLY SPIRIT.

    While a man, Jesus had none of His own Power or Authority to use as a man..

    AFTER Jesus Christ ASCENDED to His Father, is when Jesus owned His OWN POWER AND AUTHORITY AS GOD, THE SON. Just as He did before He laid it all down and humbled Himself to become “just a man”.

    The scriptures tell us that we are mere men who are ALSO INDWELT with the Spirit of God.
    We are to walk FILLED with the Spirit of God…which means UNDER HIS RULE AND AUTHORITY.
    We are to walk EMPOWERED by the Spirit of God.
    We are ANOINTED by the Spirit of God.

    The ROOT cause of not being an Overcomer and not walking in holiness and power is UNBELIEF that we are suppose to….right now….UNBELIEF that it is possible…right now…..and UNBELIEF that we are to SUBMIT EVERY THOUGHT, EVERY EMOTION, EVERY DECISION, EVERY DEED to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    Ask the Lord to EXPOSE/REVEAL ALL UNBELIEF within us.
    Ask the Lord to EXPOSE/REVEAL ALL LIES that we have believed instead of His Truth.
    Ask the Lord to HELP OUR UNBELIEF AND REPLACE ALL LIES WITH HIS TRUTH.

    2Cr 10:3-5 KJV
    3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

    4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

    5 Casting down IMAGINATIONS, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity EVERY THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ;

    EXAMINE verse 5 very carefully….look up the definitions of the words in that verse.
    This verse is the key to REMAINING under the Rule of the Spirit of God 24/7. Gal 5 Rom 8

  115. Lightning Storm Nov 9th 2013

    Jesus Christ died on the cross to SAVE US FROM OUR SINS AND INIQUITIES.

    We are not called to STRUGGLE with our sins and our enemies (the self-flesh; the devil; and the world system……..)

    We were EMPOWERED TO OVERCOME….NOT STRUGGLE…..but if we have UNBELIEF…..if we believe LIES…….if we QUENCH, RESIST, AND GRIEVE the Spirit of God ……….WE ARE POWERLESS TO OVERCOME.

    THEN WE WILL DIE IN THE WILDERNESS!!!

    Which Almighty God is ADAMANTLY AGAINST!

  116. Averyl Nov 10th 2013

    Without Him we can do nothing.
    We can desire, yield, hate our sin & ourself, – o wretched man that I am, who will deliver me, Lord have mercy on me a sinner.
    He never wants us to forget that!

  117. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    The word PERFECT means MATURITY.

    So when people say “we will never be perfect in this life”, they are basically saying they will remain spiritual BABES/BABIES all through this life.

    The word RIGHTEOUSNESS means WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO ALMIGHTY GOD for this moment.

    To walk in RIGHTEOUSNESS is to walk in THE WILL OF GOD in this very moment.
    If I am walking according to my own will, then I am not walking in RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    When we are BABES….this walking in RIGHTEOUSNESS/WALKING BY THE SPIRIT is an up and down roller coaster….in and out, in and out, in and out……in the Spirit, in the flesh…..in the Spirit, in the flesh all day long from moment to moment we must practice 2 Cor 10:5.

    Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is transforming our minds/souls/natures to the mind and Nature of Jesus Christ, therefore the roller coaster becomes a stable PERFECT…..MATURE WALK …INCREASING IN THE SPIRIT AND DECREASING IN THE FLESH.
    We are enjoying more time spent in VICTORY in the tests of our WALK .
    We are spending less time in the flesh, therefore we are SINNING LESS.
    We are spending more time in the Spirit, therefore the SPIRIT’S FRUIT/NATURE IS INCREASING IN US.
    His POWER AND AUTHORITY IS INCREASING IN US.
    His ANOINTING IS INCREASING IN US.

    Temptations are decreasing because of our increased time spent SUBMITTED AND SURRENDERED to the Authority of the Spirit of God.

    We are not only positionally Holy and Righteous, but by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we are walking PRACTICALLY AND ACTUALLY HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS when we are walking by the Spirit of God.

    This VICTORY is NOT DEPENDENT upon the kind of circumstances, kind of situations, and kind of people that are in our lives from day to day.

    That is not what causes the roller coaster!!!

    What causes the roller coaster is OUR OWN self-flesh resisting submission to the Holy Spirit because of UNBELIEF. (which I discussed in an earlier post).

    We receive the FULLNESS OF GOD at new birth, but ALL that the Spirit of God has for us is not FULLY ENJOYED, or experienced by us, UNTIL the Spirit of God has FULL RULE OVER OUR BODY, MIND, WILL, EMOTIONS, TONGUE, and EVERY minute of our days and nights.

    If you give the Spirit of God authority over 10% of your body, mind, will, emotions, and minutes of the day….then that is all you enjoy of the Fullness of God….10%.

    The only thing that we should be striving for is the total surrender/giving up of all 100%. This is a daily, moment by moment practicing 2 Cor 10:5.

    I have found that people don’t BELIEVE this is what is taught in scripture. And it really boils down to the fact that they don’t want to DO IT/OBEY.
    As Timothy states…..they are LOVERS OF SELF MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD.

  118. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    Even Jesus learned obedience by the things which He suffered, dear Lightning Storm. And how glad I am that the bible isn’t written in caps and “emphasizing” at me until I’m dizzy.

    Yes, we are supposed to “die” in the wilderness actually, because flesh cannot inherit. It’s a parable for us, a metaphor. He is well able to complete the good work which He began in us, for which I’m thankful, so thankful.

  119. The following is an article published on this website a few months back. I suspect many commenting here are willfully blind. THE FOLLOWING IS DAVID WILKERSON’S OWN WORDS, not mine. He, at least, had the humility to admit his underestimation of the glorious grace of God.
    God is not well pleased with those who keep piling on.

    AN UNUSUAL WORD! – Comments?
    -extracts by David Wilkerson

    Recently the Holy Spirit gave me an unusual word, one that I did not want to hear! He said, “You are bound to a very limited vision of the Lord’s ocean of tender, loving mercies. You have endured much guilt, condemnation and fear because you have not allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal the vastness of My forgiving, healing, reconciling mercies. You do not know Me for My tenderness!”

    God showed me that this is a root cause for many giving up and
    falling away. When sin strikes—when Satan comes in like a flood,
    when you fall into some old habit or sin—the devil creates a
    bondage. First, the guilt comes flooding in, then fear fills your
    heart. A sense of total failure and helplessness overwhelms your
    soul. At this point, most believers run out of grace—because
    their view of God’s mercy is so limited.

    The devil does not want you to see God’s ocean of mercy; he
    wants you to see only a trickle! Because of our ignorance of the
    forgiving, restoring power of Christ’s love, we are destroyed. We
    run out of mercy for ourselves because we are horribly bound
    by a limited vision. Our eyes have not yet been opened to the
    endless mercies of our tender Father! We are so bound by a
    false, limited view of His mercies, we find it almost impossible
    to believe or accept what James said: “[We] have seen the end
    of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful (full of compassion), and
    of tender mercy” (James 5:11).

    This verse means, “God is easily crushed by our troubles and
    hurts. He feels our pain and our failures, and He is kind and
    compassionate to us. He loved us even when we were His
    enemy. Even when we offend Him, He is quick to help, restore
    and forgive us.”

  120. Lightning Storm…”Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is transforming our minds/souls/natures to the mind and Nature of Jesus Christ, therefore the roller coaster becomes a stable PERFECT…..MATURE WALK …INCREASING IN THE SPIRIT AND DECREASING IN THE FLESH.
    We are enjoying more time spent in VICTORY in the tests of our WALK .
    We are spending less time in the flesh, therefore we are SINNING LESS.”

    This is precisely my question. If a person is not yet mature, but he is willing and desiring to grow spiritually, but is not there yet and is still spending a little time in the flesh, but none the less he is progressing spiritually, then please answer my question, if this person were to die now, would he be allowed entrance to the Kingdom of God?

  121. Andrew, I welcome your answer to this question also.

  122. Inspired Nov 10th 2013

    Perfect/mature peace/wholeness, whose mind is stayed on Thee. Not peace as the world gives but His very own peace/wholeness.

    To die in the wilderness means you do not believe that the Father supplies all things. It is He that takes us through the valley of the shadow of death, and why we are to depend on Him, for He alone can give life and resurrect.

  123. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    I like the simplicity of what Andrew is saying. It feels like some of you Dear ones who love Jesus are making I way too dizzying.

    Jesus promised to deliver us from our sins by His indwelling presence.
    Just trust him to keep His promise. In the meantime openly confess your sins, renounce them openly and don’t ever make excuses for them or conceal them.
    Cry out to Him and he will surely save you from your sins.

    The angel said to Mary, “You shall name His name Jesus- for he shall save his people from their sins.”

    Keep pursuing this purity my Dear friends and let the world go from bad to worse.
    The world is bad- incredibly bad but in it there is a quiet and a holy people . I am one if them.

  124. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    Averyl….
    If you have been born again…you have a regenerated spirit.
    The “spirit of man” is who the man is…..it is the essence of who you are….created totally UNIQUE from any other human being ever created.
    When we are born again , our spirit is made pure, holy, and it will always desire the things of God and now it is made ABLE TO HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD AND TO UNDERSTAND THE THINGS OF GOD.

    YOU are a new creation! Your spirit man will always be holy and pure.

    The reason why we still have sin living within us is because the SIN NATURE/SOUL/SELF-FLESH(mind, will, emotions) is still alive and was not regenerated along with our spirit man at the time of our new birth.

    The sin nature/soul/self-flesh is like a TUMOR (Paul calls it “the body of sin”). It is not a part of who you are….it is a foreign material that does not belong in us.

    Just as in a physical TUMOR, the tumor AFFECTS our thoughts, emotions, our physical body, our decisions, our finances, our daily life, our family, etc etc.

    So does the TUMOR of our sin nature/soul/ flesh…..it ALSO AFFECTS all of those areas of life.

    When we are diagnosed with a physical TUMOR, WE INSTINCTIVELY SEE IT AS SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT BELONG IN OUR BODY….A FOREIGN OBJECT.
    And we don’t waste any time in trying to get that tumor OUT OF US….BECAUSE it is affecting our life and the lives of those around us!

    When Adam and Eve were created, they did not have a TUMOR of Darkness/Evil/sin.
    When they ate TOXIC FRUIT FROM A TOXIC TREE, A TOXIC TUMOR WAS IMBEDDED WITHIN THEM and ALL of the sperm and eggs of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.

    The Power of the Holy Spirit wants to SHRINK that tumor like chemotherapy/radiation, and CUT IT OUT once and for all.
    This is why Jesus Christ was born, died, and was resurrected…..

    Mat 1:21 KJV
    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

  125. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    I’m just glad the Holy Spirit doesn’t try to brow-beat, domineer, and force His way on anybody. But for those who do such things, I maintain there is hope and wouldn’t say their names are blotted out of the Lamb’s book of life.

  126. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    Inspired, our flesh/carnal mind does not believe and is duly rebuked, that’s why it needs to die (in the wilderness). The next generation that was born to the Israelites and entered into the Promised Land is a parable/metaphor/ensample to us of being born (again) of the spirit. Flesh does not inherit, it cannot inherit any more than it can believe.

  127. Averyl Nov 10th 2013

    Lightning, – thankyou!
    In my flesh dwells no good thing!

  128. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    One thing I have learned along the way, is that witchcraft in its essence is simply the effort of one person’s will to bend someone else’s will to their own will. It can be literally mind-bending and no wonder there is so much dizziness around here this evening (my time).

  129. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    Donald

    I can only quote what the scriptures tell us.
    Only the LORD can tell you personally where you are at in your walk with Him each day.

    The fact that you are INQUIRING and DESIRING to KNOW where you are, and NOT CONTENT with where you are…….that is a very good sign that the Spirit of God is active in your life and you have not resisted Him to the point of becoming slothful or stiff necked.

    When the Spirit of God is DAILY bringing you into the Presence of God, into conviction and repentance, into revelation of His Truth about you and Him, then you can know that that He is making you an OVERCOMER.

    When the daily routine is VOID of His Presence and Power and there are no VICTORIES OR DELIVERANCES FROM SIN…….NO NEW TESTIMONIES OF BEING SET FREE AND HEALED….NO NEW TESTIMONIES OF INCREASED FAITH, FRUIT OF HIS SPIRIT, AND POWER……that is not a good sign.

    That would be a sign of being STUCK IN BONDAGE/A STRONGHOLD. (why many are stuck in the wilderness)

    The people who Walk by the Spirit of God that I am acquainted with, have a new testimony at least weekly…if not daily, of repentance and spiritual breakthroughs and transformation.

    They are people who do not let “things slide”….

    they PURSUE GOD AND HOLINESS…PURITY OF SOUL…in prayer, repentance, fasting and denial of self until the Spirit of God gives them FREEDOM AND TRANSFORMATION.

    Like Jacob wrestling with the Angel, they wrestle in prayer, fasting, and repentance until the Spirit of God has completed HIS WORK INSIDE OF THEM.

    1Ti 6:11 NASB
    But flee from these things, you man of God, and PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, GODLINESS, FAITH, LOVE, perseverance and gentleness.

    My family HONORS the LORD enough to RESPECT the time and sacrifice that is necessary for the Spirit to transform each of us. We are ALL not on a fast or in a time of prayer and repentance at the same time…..sometimes we are….but not a regular occurrence.

    We do not see it as an inconvenience or an interruption in the daily life……because HE IS OUR LIFE.
    This was not the way it always was. At one point, my spouse was not a believer…….but when the LORD called me to prayer, or fasting or repentance, my spouse soon realized that I would NOT DISOBEY THE LORD FOR ANYTHING or ANYONE.

  130. Inspired Nov 10th 2013

    Have to pray on this watchful–I see your point, but I also see a people who did not trust God to sustain them, and so in their complaining, a product of the carnal mind, He caused them to die with the quail still in their throats. Then we also have the pole with the serpent so that when the serpent bit them they could gaze on or touch the pole and live. This is a people who their shoes did not wear out and seen all kinds of Gods miracles, but still did not trust Him.

  131. Andrew Nov 10th 2013

    Wade – you act like that article of Wilkerson’s is the only thing he ever wrote.

    “REPENTANCE” is the beginning of freedom from sin and it’s bondage.

    If you ignore conviction and repentance, you offer no freedom at all – in fact you have no true Gospel at all.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  132. Inspired Nov 10th 2013

    Lightening Storm writes, …because HE IS OUR LIFE.
    Amen!!

  133. No Andrew, just one of the most personally honest ones. You are the one who asked for comments on these posts – maybe you need to stipulate that you only want one’s that agree with your particular level of spiritual growth. I am afraid that you have climbed to the top of the heap and decided you have reached the place where you can decide who, what and when concerning the rest of the Body is acceptable. I love you, but as a man with a young family, I am afraid you are going to have to eat a whole lot of spiritual crow as they take on their own personalities and wills and their flesh starts manifesting the innate wretchedness of the old nature which can only be tamed by grace.
    Further, repentance is produced through godly sorrow which is produced through a revelation of the Spirit. Peter tells us in Acts that it is God who grants repentance. And Paul said, it is God who works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure – not that of self-exalted believers.

    God bless

    Brother Wade

  134. Andrew Nov 10th 2013

    If you listen to my sermons you will see I preach a “clean heart” grace very strongly.

    I just don’t believe in entering that place without deep conviction, repentance and cleansing.

    You cannot have resurrection without the cross.

    The “death” comes first.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  135. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    watchful… I will write to you in small letters…instead of like Paul who wrote in LARGE letters….so you won’t get dizzy.

    the majority of people who have written about the “types” in the old testament, do not see the wilderness and the promised land the same as you.

    Most writers see the Israelites coming out of Egypt and crossing the Red Sea as an analogy of we heathens being born again. The blood on the lintels of the doors represents the Blood of Jesus Christ; then crossing the Red Sea represents “cutting Covenant” entering into a Covenant with the Alpha and Omega….I AM.

    The wilderness is seen as the process of consecration and sanctification……getting Egypt out of the inside of the Israelites (souls/minds/wills/self-flesh).

    Receiving the Law of God (10 commandments) is the analogy of the Spirit of God convicting us inwardly of unrighteousness.
    The Law of God applied by the Power of the Holy Spirit will remove the idols (golden calf) that are dwelling in our self-flesh.
    The Fiery Presence of the Holiness of God (fiery bush/fire on the mountain/fire that leads through the night/darkness) will consume/remove the sins, iniquities, and self-flesh from inside of us, as the Fiery Presence of God consumed the “sin offering” on the altar.
    The more time spent in the Presence of God, the more dross and chaff is consumed by the Fiery Spirit of God.

    The wilderness exposes the idols and the wrong desires (they desired quail rather than the Bread of Heaven (aka Jesus Christ)
    The wilderness exposes the unbelief and distrust of God.
    The wilderness exposes the false images we have of God, the false ideas of God, the lies that we believe about God and His written scriptures.

    The Tabernacle is the pattern that God gives us for His House of God (us) but also for His Kingdom of God throughout the ages.

    The generation who died in the wilderness is an analogy of the unbelief in our souls/self-flesh that must die and be removed from us. As I quoted in previous scriptures, Rev 21:8 & 27…the unbelieving will not inherit; the unbelieving will not remain in the book of Life; the unbelieving will not enter into Paradise.
    And the analogy of entering into the Promised Land is the abundant Life here on earth as overcomers!

    The Promised Land was not representative of Heaven, because the Promised Land was filled with many kinds of enemies that had to be conquered so the Israelites/overcomers could victoriously take possession of the land.
    The Promised Land represents the globe on which we live.
    Adam and Eve were given dominion over the earth.
    They gave away that dominion to Satan and the kingdom of darkness when they ate the fruit of evil.

    Jesus came to begin the restoration of all things in His creation. When we have been purged in the wilderness, only then we receive power and authority to take possession of the Promised Land.

    Jesus Christ had to go through the very same process!!
    He was not allowed to take possession of His Promised Land until after He went through the wilderness experience overcoming the flesh; then overcoming the devil and the world during His time of temptation.

    Then, and only then, did He receive the Power of the Spirit to begin taking possession of the Land…..by healing the sick; cleansing the lepers; raising the dead; casting out demons; and making disciples.

    As we are commanded to do in Matt 10:8. That’s following Jesus……you can’t follow Jesus if you have NO POWER to obey Matt 10:8.

  136. Brother Andrew, your sermons are not in question. Your pride is. I am sure that you are a sincere man in your walk and ministry before God. As for death coming first, it most certainly did – it was Christ who died – you are very much still alive. However, the good news is “if Christ died, then all are dead in Him” It is a miracle and hard for the carnal mind to comprehend. “The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness unto him.” I have been where you are. You are getting closer. God will see that you get there, but on His terms. Let me know if I can be of service in this matter.
    I like you and am thankful for your zeal and passion, nevertheless you need to learn what the fruit of the Spirit is, then apply them to your critique of what is offensive to you in the body.
    Much grace to you Brother!

    Brother Wade

  137. David Marsh Nov 10th 2013

    THE GREATEST DECEPTION
    -extracts by David Wilkerson

    “The greatest deception in the modern church is the matter of using God’s Word to put a badge of approval on covetousness.”

    Brother Wade,
    I dont believe any of us are arguing against the great grace and mercies of our Lord Jesus Christ – but I do believe the point David Wilkinson is making is that the members of the institutional churches dont look very much different to society at large. Divorce, homosexuality, fraud, leaders milking the flock for money and fame. The list goes on.

    Repentance must come back into the church at large.

    And because it hasnt, Christians are leaving the institutions in their droves.
    Hence the world wide House church movement.

    God is separating the sheep from the goats. And He is rebuilding the Book of Acts church again which has required the separation of those who love God’s righteousness from those who love religion.

    God bless you Wade. Keep seeking and questioning.

    David Marsh.

  138. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    ALL sin/flesh is DESTRUCTIVE.
    No matter how sweet, syrupy, or white washed it is.

    The Spirit of Grace will not leave us in our sin/flesh/iniquity BECAUSE OF THE MERCY OF GOD.

    The Fire of God rains down on us with Fiery trials to turn us away from our sins and bring Godly Sorrow and Repentance which leads to deliverance, freedom from the sin, and transformation.

    Most people blame Satan for the Fiery trails and end up resisting the Holy Spirit as they play “spiritual warfare” games because they do not ASK God or HEAR God.

    And because they think that “things between God and I are just fine”. “Its just that pesky Satan that keeps attacking me”

    Who allowed Satan to bombard Jesus Christ for 40 days?
    God, the Father.
    And for what purpose? To be tried and tested……and Jesus was found “not wanting; not falling short of the Glory”.

    But Fiery trials and tests are going to DIG UP THE DIRT THAT IS HIDING IN OUR DECEITFUL SOULS…BURIED UNDER LAYERS OF DENIAL!!

    Who has eyes to see the dirt, and believe it IS DIRT?

  139. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    Brother Wade you are using a double standard here. You are doing the very same thing David Wilkerson did, brought correction to a problem you see (in this case pride). Would you not say that God’s word tells us to “judge with righteous judgment?” Yet it is so important that we let the Spirit discern what is wrong in all things, because even to reprove with our own understanding is really just accusation when done in the flesh. Make sure your words are spirit and life, that they are being breathed out by God’s Spirit. For the Spirit gives life, but the flesh profits nothing.

  140. We are each given a clean heart by the Lord when we come to Him…

    “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (John 15:3 NASB)

    We have daily cleansing which the Holy Spirit completes in us as He reveals truth to our already clean heart and remains of sin which dwells within us is removed…

    This is what Jesus referred to when He said,

    “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” & “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” (John 13:8b & John 13:10b NASB)

    And you are clean – believers are clean…

    But not all of you – Judas was not a believer – he was the son of perdition – and he wasn’t clean…

    So Jesus washed His own – it was His responsibility as He was their Lord…

    All they had to do was to submit to allow Him to serve them in washing them…

    Removing the remainder – the dust – of sin which dwells within them from them…

    This is what the Holy Spirit does…

    He prepares us for the Presence of God…

    Ultimately when we are glorified and see Him in our resurrected bodies face to Face…

    Until then we are clean and are being cleaned…

    Or as the scripture says – we are holy and are being made holy…

    For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

  141. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    If my comment may be allowed to stay up (Andrew), I have sought to speak by the Spirit on this website and I have never meant disrespect toward anyone including Andrew. But I have tried to stand firm on the truth that Christ has revealed to me by the Spirit. The Christian life is simple, deny yourself, trust and depend upon Christ, and live/walk by the Spirit. Repentance is a call to make an internal change, to believe and trust in Christ and God’s Word. We live out of the cross, putting no confidence in the flesh, which simply means we renouce all self-confidence, self-esteem, and self-effort, and instead entrust ourselves to Christ and live in full dependency on the Spirit. The godly sorrow comes out of our realization of God’s holiness and goodness, and our wretchedness in comparison. “Nothing good lives in me (in my flesh)!” is the cry of everyone who has seen themselves in the light of the Lord’s countenance, His Holy Presence brought by His Holy Spirit in the midst. So so simple. It’s all about Christ! He is the glory of God we fall short of, and He the Saviour that rescues us from our sin and corrupted nature, above all He is the Lord who reigns from within the believer’s heart by the Spirit. We simply must yield to His righteousness and His truth (faith in Him and the Word) and we will find His grace sufficient, for His power is made perfect in our weakness.

  142. Daniel you are correct. However I am not ubiquitously launching critical statements at unnamed persons. Paul said Peter was to be blamed openly for his hypocrisy. I am responding by invitation on this website to those here who are taking up the hypocrisy of both David Wilkerson and Andrew Strom.
    If I had a website where a were making judgments about other members of the Body of Christ, I am an open target for correction and should be.
    Further, I couldn’t personally care any less about this website or the largely unspiritual conduct of those who comment herein. However, since you asked, God led me to this website for the purpose of bringing a balance. If I had my way, you would not have seen anything as coming from me.
    I am not a no name or username in stealth. My name is Wade Hurt and I post my email for all to see. I am a pastor and God uses me mightily to guide people to truth.
    At the end of every sermon I preach I can say, the onus for my salvation rests completely square upon what Jesus did for me and not on my performance. Further, I am fully capable of anything – you name it and so is everyone else here and abroad. I am so wretched apart from Christ that I feel silly condemning others who do not walk in the Spirit. “This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptation, Jesus Christ came into the world to die for sinners, among whom I am chief.
    If grace super abounds where sin abounded, then I am in a flood of it. Further, how can anyone rationalize that Jesus would allow one single person who has experienced the rebirth to somehow lose their salvation when the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. Learn what this means. Also, if while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, shall we not rest confidently that His same love and power of grace can keep us to the end?
    I have learned that those who condemn others do so because the true state of their confidence in the grace of God is sub par.

    Yours In Christ

    Pastor Wade Hurt
    [email protected]

    I am here to help not tare down or discourage.However, in this atmosphere I see how this would be hard embrace.

  143. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    Brother Wade- if I am hearing you you are saying that no man can point out or correct another man- that in your words – “only by the revelation of the Spirit” that one is brought to the gift of repentance by God.

    Interesting that you accuse Andrew of being proud because he has spoken out in his messages pointing out sin and you accuse him of being in the flesh for doing this. The reason I find your accusations of Andrew so interesting is because you do the very thing you accuse him of doing.
    While you claim it is fleshly to point out sin – you do the very thing you say is fleshly to do.
    You should remove the plank from your own eye before you strain to remove the speck you claim to be in Andrews eye.
    By accusing Andrew of pride and condemning him for it you break all your own rules.
    Evidently your harsh and condemning judgements of others don’t apply to yourself
    Evidently you believe you have such a superior and higher level of spiritual maturity than Andrew and the rest of us that you can now sit in judgement of him.

    The reason you see a speck of pride in Andrew is because you have a plank of pride in your own eye.
    The reason you see the speck of condemnation in others is because you have a plank of condemnation in your own eye.
    Beware of the infamous plank Wade! Spiritual pride is like having bad breath- you smell the bad breath of others but you can’t smell your own bad breath.

    You reek with spiritual pride my friend.

    God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble-

    If you believed in grace as much as you claim to you wouldn’t have condemned Andrew or David Wilkerson.

  144. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    Wade- you said, “I have learned that those who condemn others do so because the true state of their confidence in the grace of God is sub par”

    By your own standard of evaluation above -by accusing and condemning Andrew as well as David Wilkerson you are evaluating your own level of grace as being sub par!

    You give the grace of god a bad name my friend. You preach grace and have a creed of grace but you don’t give any grace to others .
    Physician HEAL THYSELF!

  145. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    We take this path of self-denial and cross-bearing (which means dependency on Christ and fellowshipping in His sufferings) because we have counted the cost. We decide to come after Jesus and suffer the loss of all things, because He infinitely worth it! He is worthy to be loved and adored, not only for His sacrifice on the cross, but simply because of who He is. We are able to love Him, because He first loved us, and this great outpouring of love, too great to comprehend or imagine, causes us to offer ourselves fully and totally to Christ, forsaking all to know Him and be found in Him. We entrust our entire being to Him, laying down our lives, because His love has enabled us to love in return. So we continue on this path of full trust and self-denial everyday by the power (ability) of the Spirit. Because He sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts, so that we remain in first love, so that we abide in Christ.

  146. Barry, you are correct. I think it has gotten to that point. I ask all to forgive me as this is a good example of how a little leaven quickly spreads through the lump. I repent of the slightest vent of condemnation. Andrew forgive me Brother and may God grant His mighty grace to you and your family.

    Grace and peace

    Brother Wade

  147. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15 NASB)

    According to this passage grace isn’t merely for forgiveness, acceptance, adoption as sons and credited righteousness GRACE IS ALSO to cause us to deny ungodliness and Worley passions and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age.

    Also according to this passage none of us is allowed to rebuke and forbid others for rebuking and exhorting with ALL AUTHORITY.

  148. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    Brother Wade, I am not trying to catch you in any of your words, but I see a glaring inconsistency when you repove David Wilkerson for speaking against prosperity preachers and their false gospel (which Peter did much harsher in his second epistle) and then turn around to correct pride you see in Andrew. I am not saying you are wrong in your judgment, I am saying do not tarnish a precious brother’s name (suggesting God judged him by removing him), for doing something that you yourself are doing. Yes, we will hear the Holy Spirit and should obey, but make sure it lines up with the Word first.

    Isaiah 57:1-2 NASB

    The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart; and devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil, He enters into peace; they rest in their beds, each one who walked in his upright way.

  149. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    Also AM did you get that Zion/Babylon thing from a book? I seem to remember reading it in one titled “The Harlot Church System” or something to that effect.

  150. David Marsh Nov 10th 2013

    Brother wade,
    Your full name, your email address and an apology.
    Now that is the heart of Christ.
    May you remain with us and share our different views together.

    God bless you

    David marsh

  151. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    {{ God is separating the sheep from the goats.}}

    That is what I understand also, the hour is so late that the tares are pretty much bundled now, whereas the wheat remain where they are scattered, waiting to be gathered into the barn (ark). Just as our Lord foresaw. He is so faithful to warn, praise Him.

  152. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    In the natural realm, the saga of the Israelites leaving Egypt, crossing the Red Sea, travelling through the wilderness, crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land, doing battle there, etc, are all events written chronologically, but maybe it will help to be reminded that things in the Spirit aren’t limited to time. Believers can be and are in the wilderness at the same time as we are entering in, doing battle, various baptisms (trials), etc. I am finding that in the Spirit, in my experience, it’s all a kind of concurrent thing, and we gird ourselves for a lifelong pilgrimage. If we think we have arrived then we haven’t yet arriven as we ought. All He asks of us is that we lay our lives on the altar….every battle, every victory is His, not much we can do bound and burnt to a crisp anyway, in our weakness His strength is made perfect, so where is our boasting, and that’s why we lay our victor’s crowns at His feet.

  153. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    Brother Wade- you are truly my brother! Thanks for your Christlike humble apology. That is the grace of God in your life my brother!

    I totally understand the resentment we feel against those who have hidden the message of grace from us- like Uncle Labon cheating Jacob out of his inheritance for two decades. We slaved day and night trying to earn from God the favour of God by our behaviour that He has already given us by inheritance. I still feel the sting of that when I sense people trying to tell me that it is their behaviour that makes them right with God, keeps them right with God and that it is the personal behavioural performance that earns justification, propitiation, acceptance, holiness and righteousness before God. I understand it feels like being being deceived into spending time in jail for things that Jesus redeemed us from.

    Having said that I think you already know that only a divine revelation of this grace can release the sons who are yet in bondage to performing like slaves rather than acting like sons.

    I also think you already know that even though we are free from condemnation, that even though our sins will never be held against us because of the blood- that God still wants to glorify himself BY OUR EVERYDAY LIVES. He still desires to glorify himself by saving us from our everyday sins. And that He does this by pointing out our sins and bringing the weight of legitimate guilt and pain down upon us as a means to drive us to confession and repentance. This awareness of our personal sins comes to by the the rebukes of those we live with every day, by the preaching of His servants exposing sin and by the direct convicting power of The Spirit of grace within us.

    It is always wise to listen to the rebukes of even legalistic people who think they are going to enter the kingdom by their personal performance and behaviour.

    Better is open rebuke than hidden affection!

  154. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Romans 8:29, 30, 33, 34 NASB)

    According to this passage it is justification ( by faith alone) and not sanctification ( experiential holiness) that guarantees and leads to glorification.
    But the SAME PASSAGE also says that the sons of God are NOT MERELY predestined to justification only BUT THEY ARE PREDESTINED TO CONFORMITY TO CHRIST. A person who claims to be justified but who is not being transformed in his daily life to the image of Jesus IS LYING ABOUT HIS JUSTIFICATION.

    The sons are predestined to personal holiness -( to be conformed to the image of Christ) NOT MERELY TO JUSTIFICATION BY F AITH.
    Both are essential to glorification.
    No justification by faith- no conformity to Christ- no conformity to Christ- no glorification.

  155. Inspired Nov 10th 2013

    Watchful,
    Looking at the wheat and tares, these are truths or lies that we have believed in our walk. Tares are vain imaginations that are cast down and or thrown into the fire, or like we say, file 13, the dump, landfill to be burned.
    Wheat on the other hand are truths and are good for us. And harvested in our lives for growth.
    Animals are “feelings” and in most cases soulish.
    To think that I am a wheat or tare, or an animal, is to deny that I am created in the image and likeness of God, who created me, which is a truth, and not a feeling regardless of what I am feeling or experiencing.
    My soul, the place of feelings is what is laid on the altar, so that the emotion will come through with a clean animal and not an unclean animal.
    You write in our weakness, His strength is made perfect. What is our strength? The Joy of the Lord. His Joy is my strength. He has supplied me with joy in my weakness despite what my soul wants to dish out.
    As for Andrew, I am not seeing pride in him, as he has allowed this thread to keep running in spite of what has been brought against him. A prideful person, especially since they can control the conversation would have deleted the remark brought against him, and also would have closed the thread by now. But he has not done so. Does he want us to believe how he does? Sure, but so does everyone here. We are ever influenced by many things and therefore have to get understanding on that which we keep.
    We have Jezus, who was full of God/seeded, and we have Jezubel, who was a pure virgin. We always liken a virgin to something great, yet a virgin can not reproduce because she has not been seeded. So not being seeded she tries to reproduce fruit that seems to be good but yet it is not perfect for lack of seed, unteachable spirit/mindset. if there is life in you/a seed it should be reproducing after its kind. Jezubel is counter Jezus in claiming her life to be her own.

  156. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    AMEN….Barry

    The word you shared describing the PATH we must take to Glorification is VITALLY NEEDED in these modern days of doing “the christian thing”.

    The GLORY of God is the MANIFESTED PRESENCE/POWER/IMAGE OF GOD.

    (that describes Jesus…read the scriptures…and we are to be like Jesus)

    Our GLORIFICATION is MANIFESTING HIS IMAGE, HIS POWER, HIS PRESENCE.

  157. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    The LORD is less concerned about the outward sin that we commit than we are!

    Yes, it is to our benefit in this world to not sin to the point of jail, death, or breaking our health.

    But the LORD is MORE concerned about the ROOT of those sins.
    WHY are you cussing? WHY are you filled with animosity?
    WHY are you depressed? WHY are you filled with self-pity? WHY are you watching other’s immorality?

    Sin is very much like a weed. You can cut the weed above the ground over and over……but the weed will come up again and again……UNTIL THE ROOT IS REMOVED.

    The Spirit of God goes for the ROOT CAUSE and desires to pull it out.
    It is necessary to spend your time in the Presence of God so that the Spirit of God has your complete attention.
    It is in the Presence of God where transformation takes place.
    It is in the Presence of God where healing takes place.
    It is in the Presence of God where deliverance takes place.
    It is in the Presence of God where miracles, signs, and wonders take place.
    No Presence, no Power. No Power, no Transformation. No transformation, no Revival.

    We need to give Almighty God what He DESERVES!!

    Not what we can “fit into our daily life”……LEFTOVERS.

  158. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    CONVICTION OF SIN IS THE FIRST WORK OF THE SPIRIT OF JESUS EACH AND EVERY TIME JESUS SAVES US FROM ONE OF OUR SINS.

    IMPLICATIONS OF JESUS’ PROGRESSIVE WORK OF CONVICTION OF SIN:
    1. Conviction of sin and exposure of sin IS NOT condemnation for sin.
    – We are forgiven of our sins.
    -We are no longer condemned for our sins.
    -Our sins will never be held against us.
    – Our sins will never separate us from fellowship with God.
    God is glorified by all of this GRACE But God is also glorified when we stop sinning!
    We will never stop sinning UNTIL WE ALLOW JESUS TO SHOW US OUR SIN for what it is! Until He convinces and convicts us that our issue is SIN!

    2. It is NOT always the devil who is making us aware of our sins- It is the Spirit of Grace and Truth.

    2. Feeling the full weight of legitimate guilt over each of our sins is not unbiblical or unspiritual.

    3. Realizing the pain our sins have caused others is not unbiblical or unspiritual.

    4. We must allow Jesus to testify to us that what we are doing is evil before we can allow Him to save us from that evil.
    Jn. 7:7- “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.”
    5. It is NOT merely the law that makes us aware of sin- IT IS JESUS

    6. Preaching that exposes sin is NOT ALWAYS MERELY PREACHING THE LAW by the power of the flesh RATHER it can also be preaching salvation by the power of the Spirit.

    7. We must not be in too much of a hurry to tell people who are in the throws of pain and guilt over their sin that they shouldn’t feel this way about their sin.

    8. Confession and renunciation of sins is essential to being delivered from sins power.
    “ give us today our daily bread and (daily)forgive us our (today’s )sins as we forgive others their (daily) sins.”

  159. Barry Schmidt Nov 10th 2013

    this always astonishes me- the church is continually crying out for Jesus to come into our assemblies- but as He moves towards us- we become accutely aware of our sins- We dont like this- so we run away and hide from Him and we chase away His servants who come with Him exposing our sins- the very sins that we need to be saved from.
    So the church plays the game of hide and seek with Jesus.
    When will we let Jesus come in and BE HIMSELF among us- exposing our sins and then saving us from them.
    Then the world will know that he is Emanuel- God AMONG US!

  160. Andrew Nov 10th 2013

    One thing I have learned over the years is the incredible misunderstanding that can arise from reading forums and emails. They are notoriously “cold” formats – thus the invention of “smiley faces” and “LOLs” to try and warm them up a bit. The number of people who think others are speaking ‘harshly’ to them on forums, etc, is astounding.

    So Wade – sorry if my “direct” manner offended you. I was not trying to be rude or hardline – though I strongly disagreed with your stance. If you think this forum is opiniated, go and visit a boxing forum sometime!! We are a mild lot!

    Forgive me any lack of decorum, my friend.

    Grace and peace to you.

    Andrew Strom

  161. marilyn Nov 10th 2013

    Brother Wade tells us that God took David Wilkerson out because he was not preaching by the Spirit, Andrew debates, after very much slandering John MacArthur, whether or not he considers Dr. MacArthur a brother. The Perfectionist Doctrine of Charles Finney is preached from this site, and Andrew apologizes to Brother Wade, who writes a prideful rant, others comment, he apologizes, he writes more, others comment, he apologizes. Yes, we must forgive, however, we are told to honor one another more than ourselves. Different opinions will always be aired, that is healthy. It’s when we think we alone can call out who belong to God and who doesn’t Yes, Averyl thank God for Jesus Christ. To those who think they can achieve Finney’s perfection on their own……you are making Jesus Christ of no avail. Thank you Barry Schmidt for your words. Thank you Watchful. I thank God for His love that I see in many of these comments.

  162. Andrew Nov 10th 2013

    Marilyn – I do not believe or preach “perfectionism”.

    Christ alone is our perfection.

    My only hope is to live “in him” and to experience His perfection – His cleanness – living in me. Not of myself. But of Him.

    Which is the gospel in a nutshell.

    Blessings!

    Andrew Strom

  163. Lightning Storm Nov 10th 2013

    I agree Andrew Strom.

    It’s kind of like the Homosexual Agenda….

    They believe the following:

    “Unless you agree with me, You don’t accept ME or Love ME”

    Amazing how “christians” think the same way.

    “Unless my ears are tickled with the words and phrases I want to hear, you are harsh and unloving.”

    Or maybe even, God forbid, a heretic!

  164. watchful Nov 10th 2013

    Amen to the love, Marilyn, I’m feeling it too, God is so good. And I would echo Andrew’s grace and peace, to everyone. :)

  165. Daniel Nov 10th 2013

    Andrew,

    One thing I don’t understand, and please help me to if you can, is why you would block me during last times discussion? You and I most certainly did not agree, but I never pointed out any of the faults I saw in you or tried to attack you personally, I simply tried to write and explain what I had found in Scripture, for this I was considered “post-modern” and labelled “rebellious”. Even now I want you to know that I am not writing this out of anger or with a desire to vindicate myself, I simply wish to understand why you can tolerate blatant reproof (which I believe is healthy and should come) but not a view of leadership you disagree with?

    Grace and peace in Christ,
    Daniel

  166. Andrew Nov 10th 2013

    Because this debate has been going on here for months and years, and I regard it as supremely harmful to the Body of Christ – particularly the many “OOC” people on here who think a “body-less” Christianity is fine. (ie. That leaders and “body” are optional extras that really are not that necessary). There are many literal ‘lone rangers’ that hang around here. I am fine with a “wilderness experience” but not a “permanent wilderness”.

    Very very damaging, and sadly all too common.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  167. It’s really encouraging to see that we’re on the same page about the Lord being our perfection… :-)

    This is a really good starting point… :-)

    We can build from here… :-)

    so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:28 NASB)

    The Good News is that all of our sins have been – as Barry has been sharing – forgiven and we won’t have a tribe of angels reading them all out when we get to heaven – shame is not an emotion which God uses to engender our obedience – love is…

    If Jesus paid for them on the cross then they are forgiven – “their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more”…

    If God says He will remember them no more then He’s not going to authorize His angelic host to spend time writing them all down and keeping records of them…

    The angelic host is recording all the good – inspired by and completed by the Holy Spirit within us through our new spirit, our new heart and our righteous soul – that we as Saints do – that is true – but not the sin which sin which dwells in us is committing…

    This is forgiven…

    The freedom is in knowing that we are forgiven – as Barry has been sharing – and in the experience of this freedom and the lack of the “gun at the head” scenario – that we lose the rebellion of feeling like we have to disobey – that rebellion “riled up” by the Law – and actually want to obey – obedience is the key – that is what God – who is the Lord, i.e. the Boss, is looking for – even in – as Barry says – His sons…

    Jesus was obedient and we need to be also to display His Glory to the world…

    That is why – our salvation is secure but we need to display His Glory to the world…

    If we say we are Christ’s then we need to look like Christ to all who come in contact with us – not saying that we “snap our fingers” and become “instantly” like Christ – we don’t – but as they observe our lives they find us becoming – winsomely – more and more and more like Christ…

    This is the testimony which the Lord is looking for – this Glorifies the Lord and this is our submission to His Holy Spirit to create this change in us for His Glory – this has nothing to do with us as all things pertaining to life and godliness have already been given to us – including this world and the life to come…

    So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. (1 Corinthians 3:21-23 NASB)

    Our Great Reward is Jesus Christ Himself… :-)

    Any other reward we get like the new name which He is going to personally give each and every one of us as believers in His Name – or the stars differing from stars in splendour – the unique part of the Manifold Wisdom of God which we are all going to display shining like stars in the expanse of the universe – is completely up to Him and we know that He will give each and every one of us whatever He wants to give – but we are given to Him and He is given to us – and we will know Him fully even as we are fully known by Him…

    “My beloved is mine, and I am his; He pastures his flock among the lilies. (Song of Solomon 2:16 NASB)

  168. Daniel Nov 11th 2013

    Andrew (if you could please bear with me for a post, after this I will drop it),

    I am not against people gathering together with their identity being clearly in Christ. Whatever a “lone ranger” is, I am not such, I have a profound sense of my connection to the body and I desire fellowship greatly. I just have realized that the corperation identity of local churches is the issue, and in fact divide the body of Christ. Also my problem with leadership is not with certain members leading (clearly some lead in the NT), but with the nature of those who lead. The Corinthians were dividing over favorite leaders into sects, Paul checked this in two ways. One, by reminding them that through the Spirit they were one body, yet in the beauty of diversity of Spirit-gifting. He made it clear that each member was needed in the assembled gathering, and that all were to participate. Two, he explained the nature of leaders, that he and Apollos were really servants that belonged to the body, not possessors of Christ’s church (which is implied by “I’m of Paul” and “I’m of Apollos”). His meaning, and my overall meaning, is that the body should not be divided by people glorying in human leaders, but instead should be made one in the Lord Jesus through the Holy Spirit. As Paul concluded, “Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God”. That has been my point from the beginning, to understand those who lead as truly servants of Christ, and to keep us from glorying in them and to instead glory in Christ.

    Love and peace in Christ
    Daniel

  169. Averyl Nov 11th 2013

    Daniel, – Amen!
    I’m sure most of us on here love the Body of Christ and consider ourselves members of “it”.
    The members may not appear to be co-ordinated if viewed with fleshly eyes, but God knows how we are linked & working in concert with Him as we yield to His leading via the Holy Spirit.
    Please don’t call any of us rebels, you may be unintentionally blaspheming & grieving the Holy Spirit & a case of “the pot calling the kettle black”!

  170. Daniel – I believe you have worded that well.

    This is my understanding too, of servant leadership in the body of Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

    In His love,
    Roger

  171. Andrew Nov 11th 2013

    Yes – clearly I would agree with all that, Daniel – and have practiced it in many settings.

    But the practical way that it works out amongst some that I know (ie. Not at all – in other words – No “body” to speak of and no leaders or elders to speak of – for years and years) – this is the big thing that I fight against.

    Often I have seen that what people mean by a “servant leader” is that they want no-one at all given any kind of authority to guide the flock. In practice that’s what it boils down to.

    That’s why I call it “post modernism” in the extreme.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  172. watchful Nov 11th 2013

    For anyone with a sense of humour, and ears to hear, here is a very cute commercial that reminds me of the concept we have to get out of our system concerning “church” before we will be able to get hold of GOD’s will. Enjoy..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z2OtXgMY3A

    :)

  173. Andrew Nov 11th 2013

    I see……………………

    We have to get rid of the “3 Tenors”

    LOL

  174. Another song by Robin Mark – refers to prosperity in God’s Will, and that He is in control

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuhijtYVVHw&list=RDCuhijtYVVHw

  175. watchful Nov 12th 2013

    hahaha, Andrew 😉 ……no, not entirely, but we can see the need for quite a different paradigm than what we have been used to, or else how will the poor little sheeple ever get a chance to “sing”? That’s the very thing the church is supposed to be doing, building up and equipping the flock to glorify God with their lives and gifts.

    The only way that I can see is to lay that old traditional paradigm completely on the altar to be purified. By the time the Lord gives it back, it will be an animal of a different colour, lol. Any time I have laid something down and asked the Lord to sift it, He has been faithful. Even my thoughts concerning the Jews He is purifying them, and renewing my mind. The difference between flesh and spirit is like a fine line. Bless you Andrew.

  176. Marilyn Crow Nov 12th 2013

    Hi Roger,

    How rich we are in Jesus. Thank you oh so much for that wonderful song by Robin Mark. It so touched my heart & I`m sending it to all my friends.

    Blessings, Marilyn C.

  177. Lightning Storm Nov 12th 2013

    Dear Roger……thank you for that Robin Mark song.

    What a comforting song about how HUGE God is; how FAITHFUL God is; and how we can give up our illusions of control and enter into His Rest.

    I will be sharing it with others, also.

  178. watchful Nov 12th 2013

    Such precious truth in that Roger….what a blessing to hear it first thing upon rising this morning….He is refining and purifying a people for Himself, the way is not easy, but oh the fruit that comes forth is more precious than gold and I feel like that song is right from your heart dear brother. Praying for one another in the midst of trials….what a friend we have in Jesus..

  179. marilyn Nov 12th 2013

    Thanks Roger. Was blessed by your sharing the Robin Mark song ALL IS WELL. I will be sharing it also.

  180. Praise God – to Him be the glory – He showed us that song recently, during a severe time of testing – so yes Watchful, from the heart. :-)

    Thankyou all who appreciated the sharing, the singing, the praises and the worship to our Lord and King, Messiah Jesus.

    In His love,
    Roger

  181. I think you are right to speak Andrew – but what I’ve seen – and I think DonaldN mentioned above – is that we can’t see these things until the Lord gives us eyes to see…

    I know I used to listen to you talking about it and thought that you were calling us all – those who the Lord had called out – to go back into the “corrupt” system until one day the Lord really spoke to me and “I saw the light”…

    I’d been waiting for this pure “New Testament” Church to be birthed out of Revival but then I saw that the “New Testament” Church was there in front of me – in my city – in embryonic form in the Local Congregation which the Lord then subsequently told me to “support”/”become a part of”…

    He wanted me to “pray into” this Church what He had shown me and this is what I have been doing…

    I guess this is where spiritual discernment is required – as I’ve shared before – and I know you know this, i.e. which is a “live” Candlestick and which is a “snuffed out” one or even which is a “false” one which the Lord didn’t plant in the first place…

    Hurt and pain and rejection can cloud our ability to see these things…

    Persevere brother, the Lord got through to me through what you shared sometime last year on this – I finally heard your heart, i.e. what you were actually saying…

    The Body – visibly working together in a locality – is important as are leaders to look after this Body – visibly working together in a locality – and neither can function without the power of the Holy Spirit “making it all happen”… :-)

    Everything has it’s place – as I know you know… :-)

    Servanthood is at the heart of true leadership…

    Be encouraged…

    Love you,

    Andrew

  182. Lightning Storm Nov 13th 2013

    Each believer has their own individual destiny/journey as they follow Jesus Christ.

    The individual journeys share a lot of commonalities. (or they should anyway)

    But……..as each of Jesus’ and each of the Apostles’ separate journeys were DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER….so will each of His followers’ journeys be different from one another.

    If I am called to minister in the churches, what right do I have to tell everyone else they are to minister in the churches?
    If I am called to minister in the jails, what right do I have to tell everyone else they should be ministering in the jails?
    If I am called to minister in the streets, what right do I have to tell everyone else they should be ministering in the streets?

    Are followers of Jesus suppose to minister in ALL these places? Yes

    But who says that ALL FOLLOWERS are called to minister in ALL THESE PLACES?

    How many apostles were called to travel to the places Paul ministered to?
    How many apostles were called to minister to the people of Jerusalem?

    I mean really, has the Creator God become an assembly line producing only 1 body part?
    The part that ministers in the churches?

    There are so many revivals going on right now that are not in the churches…..they are in “strange places”….just like the NT.

    Wilkerson himself was used in a revival INSIDE THE GANG CULTURE…on the streets.

    We can go on and on about how many revivals began in “strange places”…..open fields; city streets; prisons; even, oh my gosh, BARS; brothels; opium dens….etc etc

    Now what if these followers ALL thought that they belonged in the churches to minister to those in the churches??? the gospel would have never reached the rest of the world.
    The Power of the Spirit of God is not meant to stay inside 4 walls and hid under the bushel.

    The Spirit of God is the Power that implements the commands of Jesus Christ to His Body and to all creation.
    Whatever Jesus commands the individual is what that individual had better be obeying.
    And the other parts of the body should be so busy obeying Jesus’ commands to them, that they don’t have time to criticize, judge, and WATCH what the other body parts are doing.

    Our eyes should be on our own PATH, what we have been commanded to do, on Jesus Christ.
    Our Trust/Faith needs to be BIG ENOUGH to believe that He has FULL CONTROL over His Kingdom and His Kingdom Followers.

    And if His Followers are not following, He is FULLY CAPABLE ENOUGH TO CAUSE THEM TO FOLLOW HIM WHERE HE WANTS THEM TO GO.

    He is a BIG GOD who does not need people.

    He just loves people so much that He INVITES US TO PARTICIPATE WITH HIM IN HIS KINGDOM.

  183. ValleyAnt Nov 13th 2013

    Andrew Strom, did you ever consider putting a chat room or chat rooms on this site? It would be a place for people from different time zones to fellowship, and there would probably always be someone in the room. Did you ever consider this?

  184. Andrew Nov 13th 2013

    We had it years ago

    It was chaos on wheels