It all started with a 2009 blog post by Rob Buckingham, pastor of a large Pentecostal megachurch called ‘Bayside’ in Melbourne, Australia. His blog post was entitled, “Is Jesus Anti-Gay?” and made the case for ‘acceptance’ being the true Christian attitude toward Homosexuals. Now bear in mind that this is not some “liberal” church or ‘liberal’ congregation here. This fellowship is part of the “C3” (Christian City Church) denomination – one of the largest mainstream Pentecostal groups in Australia. That is why the Gay community was so delighted by it all.

In the ‘comments’ section after his article, Rob Buckingham
made his views even clearer: “As a Christian, and pastor of a
church, I sometimes find the attitudes of fellow Christians
embarrassing. We have a number of gay men and women in our
church and they are accepted just the way they are – just like
everyone else is.” So you are no longer willing to preach what
Jesus preached, Rob? “GO and SIN NO MORE.”

Rob Buckingham later went on to preach a message at Bayside
that was entitled, “Real Christianity is Accepting”. (You can find
it on Youtube). In it the pastor overturned the usual understanding
of the ‘Sodom & Gomorrah’ story and advocated “Christian
acceptance” of homosexuals. The Pentecostal congregation
literally gave him a standing ovation at the end of his sermon.

This message was heralded by the Gay press as a huge leap
forward inside the Pentecostal movement. One Gay activist called
it, ‘The Bayside Breakthrough’. The Star Online trumpeted,
“Church Advocates for Gay Acceptance… minister at Melbourne´s
Pentecostal Bayside Church received a standing ovation earlier
this month for preaching just that in a special sermon on how
the church should embrace GLBT [Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual &
Transgender] people.”

The official Bayside website also published the following statement:
“Bayside Church welcomes GLBT people to find God´s love and
grace and to worship Him freely within our community.”

Even though this whole affair became very well-known, the
leadership of the C3 (Christian City Church) movement apparently
“declined to comment” on it – even though the C3 movement is
led by Phil Pringle, a very well-known preacher in Australia. It
seems Bayside is still welcome to be part of ‘C3’ and Rob
Buckingham remains a high-profile pastor in the movement. All
of his blog posts on this subject are still proudly featured on the
church website. Which surely leads one to believe that Rob
Buckingham’s views must not be too different from the overall
church’s views on this subject. Isn’t that reasonable to assume,
since they have said nothing to the contrary? I wonder if Australian
Pentecostals are aware that this huge compromise is now taking
place under their own banner?

And so, Homosexual Acceptance is free to enter into the
Pentecostal movement by the back door, since leaders no longer
dare to actually make a stand on the issue. Please write to Phil
Pringle and the C3 movement if you would like to know why they
have been so “silent” about this – even to their own members.
Here is the email to write to- [email protected]

Isn’t it sad that “political correctness” is now overtaking even the
Pentecostal churches worldwide? Perhaps the fruit of years of
no real ‘Repentance’ being preached? And I have recently heard
of large Baptist churches in Australia also starting to head in the
same direction. Who will stand and defend the truth?

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

Yours in Christ – Andrew Strom ( [email protected] )

Posted in Articles by Andrew on February 27th, 2013 at 10:54 am.


269 Replies

  1. After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” Then the disciples *came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man…”
    (Matthew 15:10-20)

  2. stephen boyce Feb 27th 2013

    i have a good verse in dealing with that 1 cor 6 9&10. no ye not the unrightous will not inherit the kingcom of god. Be not deceived neither foornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate(homosexuals) nor abusers of themselves with man kind
    10 nor theives nor covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of god

    well the poofs now have their own bible the Queen James it is to stop homophobic interpretations of the bible.stick with the king james only avoid the queen james.

    if a homosexual is looking at my comment i would encourage you to repent from your sin and be born again and be baptised and you shall receive the holy spirit

  3. It is important for Christians to understand that Christ came to die, not for the righteous, but for sinners. That includes the home-sexual and anyone who has ever looked at a woman with lust! God is love and he loves the homosexual also. But that does not mean that if a homosexual or woman luster, does not repent, that God’s love means he will not judge the unrepentant. I am so glad there are others in the world who challenge the false gospel that does not require repentance for salvation, but just knowledge (gnostic thinking) and is willing to stand up and say. :Hey. God hates sin.” And that includes lust and homo-sexuality. To make out that God is indifferent to sin, as many today are saying, simply because he nailed its requirements to the cross, is a lie from the pit of hell. Did Christ have to suffer so much for something God is casual about. Christians need to read the world of God. Once again, thank you for not being an Ahab. Well done.

  4. First let God answer!
    Romans 1: vs. 19 – 32
    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them………….Who changed the truth of God into a lie…………… vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    The body – flesh is vile!

    Phil. 3
    (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
    19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
    20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
    The way I understand it is, all sinners may attend the church! ,gathering, we welcome whomsoever, but they can only stay if they become born again (Spirit filled) and then continue in the Spirit. (leaving the corrupt life behind, in the grave, where Jesus carried and left it when He rose again} That experience alone makes anyone part of the church and from that time their old life, whatever it my have been, is to cease- die.. “Gay” marriage is an impossibility, ask any tradesman worth his salt. We do not have to be a christian to understand that. principle!
    Pr Michael.

  5. Andrew, brother I’m sorry if you are expecting anything from Phil or anyone else in the C3 leadership, to be honest I wouldn’t hold my breath for 1 sec in expectation on writing anything – Brian’s Matt 15:10-15 will tell you the story. Big Hint -” Leave them alone”.

    Also note: Deuteronomy 13:1-3

    Although I wouldn’t give up on praying for that group, I think that would be 1 million times more effective in getting anything real done.

    Would you promote a prayer campaign for C3?

    God bless you and your house

  6. Jeff Dyas Feb 27th 2013

    Hi Andrew – I am more often than not greatly encouraged by your posts and admire your uncompromising stand for Biblical truth in the deceptive world we live in.
    Nevertheless, I’m disappointed with both the tone and some of the content of the above. In my opinion, the only hope in this world for healing and wholeness for those suffering from same sex attraction issues and other forms of sexual brokeness is the church of Jesus Christ.
    We alone, by the power of His Spirit, can provide the love, affirmation, acceptance, understanding and eventual healing that these precious individuals require.
    Is ‘Go and sin no more’ the only help they can expect to receive from us? The more we adopt this ‘holier than thou – head in the sand’ attitude, the less likely the broken world around us is to believe that we have anything worthwhile to offer those drowning in their sin. Thank God Jesus Christ came to reveal Grace and Truth and in Him, we can all find new life and hope.
    I think your review is an overly critical, simplistic, knee-jerk response that demonstrates a lack of understanding of the depth of the issues involved. Until we in the Church really grapple with these issues, get an understanding of our true depths of brokeness, put our own house in order, we have very little of consequence to say to those still in the world and we will be critical of those who at least try.
    My comments are not in any way to put you down, dear brother, but are a heart-felt plea that we, His Church, might so represent His wisdom, grace and truth to a watching world that they might want to come and in coming be healed. EVERY blessing, Jeff

  7. Camalunghi Feb 27th 2013

    I was listening to Keith Green last night singing about the Sheep and the Goats……its good to be reminded by servants of the Lord in times past….that a day is fast approaching when the Lord will separate the sheep from the goats. It is so sad to see churches with a strong evangelical tradition selling out and leading many into sin by accepting that which is unacceptable to God. And that which is acceptable to God will be unacceptable…..we may well be seeing large scale apostacy…simply because so few people in some evangelical churches are truly converted, they are unable to have the courage to contront the wickedness in their midst.



    By: John Robinson

    Recently we’ve heard a lot about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. It seems to me that there are other lifestyles discriminated against as well. Take my case for example. Through no fault of my own, I was born a liar. The reason I know this is because some of my earliest recollections are of times when I told something that was not true. And this was not something that I was taught to do. It came very naturally to me.
    At first I had a lonely childhood because I thought I was the only one. But as I grew older I realized that there were others like me. And today I feel like if all liars would stand up and be counted, we would be found in all walks of life, even among our high-ranking government officials and clergymen. And if it were known, the percentage of people who have dabbled in dishonestly at one time or another would be close to 100%.
    But in spite of this, it seems like I encounter discrimination on almost a daily basis. People often make moral judgments about me, or worse yet, try to ‘help’ me with my ‘problem.’
    I don’t know why people can’t just accept me the way I am. Even though I have a good aptitude and a willingness to work, most employers can’t seem to see past my lifestyle.
    But in spite of these obstacles, I envision the day when we can coordinate special events for dishonest people like “Liars’ Pride Day” with parades and open demonstrations of dishonesty in our major cities. After all, what could be wrong with freely accepting one another in spite of our differences?

  9. En France la loi sur le mariage fait état de la reconnaissance du mariage homosexuel,cela vient de passer.
    L’église catholique impudique et française n’a pas pu témoigner de la parole de Dieu.Nous voilà devant un désastre.Car c’est le projet d’un lobby d’une élite franc-maçonnique sataniste qui a soutenu les nouvelles lois sur l’union libre pour tous.Ce n’est pas le choix du peuple puisque cette loi a été votée par l’assemblée nationale sans la consultation des français,comme d’ailleurs pour l’adhésion à l’Europe.Par leur compromis irrationnel les pentecôtiste de Nouvelle Zélande prennent le même chemin.

  10. Hisservant rich Feb 27th 2013

    i believe it was John Wesley who said “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”

    After some 40 years of “political corectness” being taught in schools and emphasized and insisted upon in society, we are begining to see the fruit.

    i would submit that the first casualty of this type of thinking is truth. Todays organized church is more a business than it is an assembly of redeemed and born again saints. As with any good business they must maintain and expand there customer base. In order to do this they must remain attractive and relevant to the society in which they exist. Hence, it is much more about “packing em in” than teaching spiritual truth.

    Mt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
    Mt 7:14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it

    bro rich

  11. This is disgusting and very sad –

  12. It’s all about the money . . . a great sell-out by purportedly Spirit-filled Christian leaders. The love of it is the root of all evil. Amen, brother Rich.

  13. @John Robinson – brilliant comment! I would be interested to hear if you do get a response, and what it is

  14. We’ve got to develop a better response than just being outraged when a church accepts gays.

    I say this because for too long, too much of the church has put down and laughed at homosexuals.

  15. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    So I am guessing that everyone who has posted or who will post never had premarital sex or thoughts of lust at any time in their lives. If you have then you fall in the same category as the homosexual, as a fornicator.
    Nevertheless did God leave you this way or did your encounter with Him cause things to change in your lives? If so then why would we think that He who died for the sins of the world exclude homosexuality. Does the scripture say that God so loves the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes on Him will have eternal life, except homosexuals?
    Does no one here have any weaknesses? Is it not in our weakness that we are made strong in Him? And being made strong in Him is this not how a person overcomes? Did God not create the evil and the good? If so then it must be His will that these things be done so that His intention of overcoming be done and made known. The man of lawlessness has to be revealed in each one of us before Christ in us can be lifted up to His rightful place in our lives. Praise God who can cause us to boast in our infirmities that we may also boast in His righteousness! He who has begun a good work within us will He not also finish that work?

  16. “Everyone here?”

  17. Some men’s sins go before them to judgment, others follow behind. We all have hidden sins. But when we see others’ sins like homosexuality, fornication, crime, witchcraft,etc. – things we see that we know are sinful – we or at least I bristle and for Jesus’ sake want to know if the person knows what they are doing is sinful. Because I want them to not only be saved but live a full life. But most homosexuals think what they do is right and not sinful. The US fosters that by allowing homosexuals to “marry”. So unless churches preach against homosexuality, as they do other sins, they are making the homosexuals children of hell. And they are to blame before God. I doubt you’ll find many churches in the US doing this because they don’t want the anti-Christian notoriety that will ensue from the press and government. THAT IS SHAMEFUL.

  18. Teshuava…THANK YOU! you took the words right out of my heart and Jeff Dyas, you too…People of God, listen!!….As followers of Jesus Christ, we are to be great ambassadors…we are to “like Him”…remember? If the only people we are supposed to allow to walk into our churches and sit down among us are people who have their whole lives perfectly in order and all together lovely….well, our churches would be empty! If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, then you tell me Andrew, how else is a lost sinner caught in the trap of homosexuality suppose to hear? I am confident that while Jesus hates sin, he frowns on anyone of his followers that would single out anyone based on any sin and make the judgment that they were not worthy to walk into our churches. Don’t hear me wrong…we as Christians cannot “embrace” the sin of homosexuality, but you’d better believe we are to LOVE those caught in the muck and the mire of it…ya know why??? cause Jesus loved us and bid us come when we too were caught in the muck and mire of whatever sin had us entangled! This pious, judgemental, criticial spirit that some are carrying in the body of Christ…no wonder, those we are to be reaching are running from us as fast as they can….

  19. The word “inherit” in 1 Cor. 9 can also mean to receive what has been allotted. In talking about the Kingdom of God, which is within us via the Holy Spirit, I interpret that to mean that homosexuality, like any sin, prevents people from receiving the fullness of salvation and life in the Holy Spirit.

  20. Well said Andrew. Well said.

  21. Anna M. Feb 27th 2013

    As followers of Christ, we want to love as He loves. Love and truth are a two sided coin- inseparable. God’s love for us speaks the truth, convicting of sin-of righteousness- and of judgment. This conviction via the light of the Word, serves the ‘sole purpose’ of bringing man to TRUE repentance. Can we have true mercy and grace apart from God’s holy judgement? No! John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    The Holy Truth manifests in repentance/turning from Satan’s lies. We must repent of our self will/iniquity. If not, we are still loved, and still lost.

  22. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    I used to live that lifestyle. It was not the church that was the cause of my deliverance, because they did not accept my kind but yet God, who called me and subjected me to the fire of His love that purified me from that way of living. He did not offer me a church but instead His Kingdom, and gave to me the seed of His Kind.

  23. Karen Foust Feb 27th 2013

    Revelation 18:1-5. After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory.
    18:2   And He cried with a strong voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great! And she has become a dwelling place of demons and a hold of every unclean spirit and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird;
    18:3   For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the fury of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the power of her luxury.
    (2) The Call for Separation: “Come Out of Her”
    vv. 4-5
    18:4   And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues;
    18:5   For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses.

  24. Apostle Makarios Feb 27th 2013

    Romans 1:21-32. The Word of God is very clear, like it or not, but those who practice such things, ARE DOOMED.

  25. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    Is there any righteousness greater than God’s righteousness? Yet with Abraham, his Faith was accounted to him as righteousness.

  26. alphafaith Feb 27th 2013

    Andrew, I can think of no better place for someone who struggles to understand the difference between the will of God and the will of the flesh than the house of the Lord – if they preach grace. However, if the Church preaches a works-based message, that Church is the worse place for overcoming sin. For in my case, your case and their case the grace of God is the only answer for deliverance of sinful behavior.
    A previous post quotes Paul in Galations’s 5 concerning the works of the flesh – completely out of context and this comes from a failure to understand the grace of God continuing to try and bring life out of compliance to the letter (law) that was completely fulfilled at the cross.
    Few understand the whole of Galation’s. It is a treaties on what causes us to be free and what keeps us in bondage – homosexuality included. Yes it is a work of the flesh and those Christians that continue to be entangled with the bondage of sin does so for one of two reasons. a. They have not yet had a revelation of Jesus Christ and are not yet saved or they are trying to live the Christian life through the law which produces sin in the fallen nature. Producing the opposite of what the law demands in us.
    The latter is the message of Galations. Paul’s mention of the works of the flesh was not to condemn but rather reveal the cause of sin in the life of the Christian. Those who practice such things are either under the law and because of their performance based attitude have put grace on the shelf and made the delivering power of the cross and Christ non-effect in their own lives.
    “The strength of sin is the law” “Sin taking oppurtunity by the commandment produced in me all manner of evil desire” “Where there is no law there is no transgression” “Apart from the law sin is dead” “Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace” “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death” “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for all those who believe…”
    Simply those Christians who are under the law may be identified by the presence of the works of the flesh. This does not mean they are unsaved, but rather cannot while living under the law (not sin) access the many benefits and virtues of the kingdom of heaven.
    Hagar represents the law and Ishmael represents sin … therefore cast out the bondwoman with her son (sin).
    This is the greatest mystery of the New Covenant.
    Now a warning. Many men over time who have found the power of Christ using them in mighty ways have destroyed their ministries by thinking they were Elijah who was to come. Do your own research on this. Alexander Dowey and others made this fatal mistake failing to understand the place of the last Old Testament prophet John the Baptist – a preacher of the law, under the law who of his own words said; Christ must increase and I must decrease. Those who preach the law are in danger of being taken out of the way. It is a dangerous thing to minimize, allbeit in ignorance, the finished and complete work of the cross which paid for all sin once for all forever – and those who receive the gift of grace through faith are eternally saved in spite of their entanglements with whatever sin – yours included.

    What of your sin Andrew. What is it? Are you without sin? No! For any minister who understands grace does not condemn others as though they have somewhere else to go but to Christ. I speak this truth in love, my Brother – however your spirit is not right in this matter and must be called out on the same forum you used to condemn.
    Those who preach a law-based condemnation oriented message reveal they are under the law and also secretely struggling with sin. “If anyone be taken in a fault, you who are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourselves, lest you likewise be tempted.” “You who condemn another, do you not practice the same?”
    Fear is what drives witch hunts, but love covers a multitude of sin and saves the soul from death. Those who are preaching the law are in danger of being taken out of the way, for they are offender’s of the cross of Christ, trampling the blood of the covenant under foot and doing dispite to the Holy Spirit of grace. For apart from Christ, there remains no other sacrifice for sin.

    Want to finally be free of the entanglement of sin?

    Those who are entangled with some weight or sin, regardless if it is on the filthy five, nasty nine or dirty dozen list of bad sin, sin is not your problem. It is the law that produces sin in the fallen nature. “the law is weak through the flesh” It produces and manifest the very thing we by use of it are trying to irradicate. Preachers preaching against a particulare brand of sin indicates that the same exists in them, but such will only compound and make worse the very thing hated and preached against. “for what I do, I do not understand, for the good that I want to do, I do not do, but the evil I do not want to do, that I practice – so then I find a law. For the one who wills to do good, evil is always present. For to WILL is present with me, but how to PERFORM I find not.
    Paul learned that his love affair with the law had to end in grace. Mixing the two makes both powerless in the life of those who do so. Grace is the answer, not the law-based, performance-based legalistic attitude. “If there was a law that could take away sin, there would be no need for Christ”
    The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom signaling the way to God – into the holiest – is open to all who come. All. “It is finished!”
    Finally, failure to understand the awesome power of the finished work of Christ and the grace of God seems to be present in the Pentecostal Pastor’s viewpoint. There is a message that can set them free from all sin. Come out from under the law and sin will lose its power, energy and drive.
    We must not preach anything but Christ and the kingdom of God. Not against things – for Him! Concerning the Church it is simple. There are 3 basic levels of participation. Members, leadership and ministry and each are held according to the measure of victory one enjoys. Simply, we know by the evident works of the flesh that those practicing sin are under the law, do not understand the gospel and cannot be entrusted with positions that define the holy nature of the Church of Jesus Christ. Those who practice such things are welcome to come and even stay the same, but not be permitted to hold a prominant place in the Church lest the enemies of God are given an occasion to speak evil of our good.
    I call each and every one to repent of their love affair with the law, turning from the law-based performance-based mentality to that of grace through faith, the gift of God, not of works lest any should have reason to boast.
    I love you all!

    Pastor Wade Hurt

    We are called to preach good news of grace through the blood and Spirit of Christ. The law produces sin in the life of the Christian who attempts to live the Christian life by doing or not doing something.

  27. “Until we in the Church really grapple with these issues, get an understanding of our true depths of brokeness, put our own house in order, we have very little of consequence to say to those still in the world and we will be critical of those who at least try.” ~Jeff

    Yes! Yes! to add to that… we must gain an understanding of what it means to love the sinner. Loving the lost doesn’t mean we come into agreement with what we believe our Lord calls sin. Scripture is clear when it says we are in the world but we should not be of the world. Let us be wise and move cautiously but also with confidence that our Lord will continue to lead us in the way we should go, that He would use us to extend His love, extend His mercy, shower His grace on all so that none shall perish.
    Do you wish to judge homosexuality, then also judge divorce of convenience, judge the marketplace that has become the church, judge prophets of profit, judge division within Christianity, judge clicks within our bodies that exclude even those within the body, judge the tweaking of the word, the watering down of scripture, the elevating of individuals idolizing their gifts…. not able to do so? Only God can judge? Then let us put that to rest acknowledging that only He can judge and let us continue to move in love, holding fast to His teachings, living a life consecrated unto God, showing ourselves blameless; then we will have the whole heart to say come, taste and see that the Lord is indeed good! To our Lord be all the glory and all the praise and let the church say, Come Lord Jesus come!

  28. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    Apostle Makarios,
    What are the wages of sin? Death. This must mean that since we all will die eventually that the penalty of our sin has been accomplished through Christ.
    Apostle, are you going to live forever or will you also drop your flesh that is mortal? Is it not that when dropping our mortal flesh that mortality will put on immortality?

  29. marc wildman Feb 27th 2013

    It doesn’t matter what we say! What does God say about homosexuality in His Word.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
    —Romans 1:26,27

    The term “sodomy,” named after the inhabitants of Sodom whose homosexual perversions caused God to rain fire and brimstone on their city in the days of Abraham (Genesis 19:4,5,12,24), has for thousands of years been synonymous with this unique form of ungodliness. That it is basically a sin of rebellion against God is evident from the above passage in Romans.

    The “cause” for which God “gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves” was that they had decided to “worship and serve creation more than the Creator” (Romans 1:24-25 – KJV).
    There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are an abomination unto the Lord thy God.
    —Deuteronomy 23:17,18 (KJV)

    Now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat… Therefore, put away from yourselves that wicked person.
    —I Corinthians 5:11, 13 (KJV)

    God’s Word has NOT changed regarding such!


  30. steve nixon Feb 27th 2013

    The final sin before destruction is sodomy, so this is another sign that this age is soon to be destroyed. The message of the whole gospel is forgiveness to all, which is based upon REPENTANCE FROM SIN. Today’s churches are saying “what sin? we accept everyone just like they are!”

  31. L. Alex Smith Feb 27th 2013

    Aside from the abandonment of clear Scriptural teaching (as per Leviticus 18, Romans 1, I Corinth. 6:9-10 &c.), what I see is that the Fear of Man has replaced the Fear of God. Also, of course, is the prevalence of the post-modern world view, in which “truth” is seen as relative, instead of absolute. Isaiah 59:14-15 states that “truth is fallen in the street” (like a fallen soldier), and everyone who stands for truth “maketh himself a prey” (a hunted beast). As far as “accepting” homosexuals into church– does this mean, accepting their sinful behaviour? Or does this mean, accepting the person, whilst recognising that their behaviour until the tutelage of Christ in His Body, will change as they yield to the Lord? Some change (from ANY kind of sin) is God’s provision of instantaneous deliverance; other times, it is a work in progress. Although I am not happy about it, at the assembly to which I go, there are people with smoking habits– they in fact smoke their cigarettes right outside the door! I see this addiction as Idolatry; the pastor sees it as a ‘symptom’ of a deeper problem– that the Lord is working on in their lives. The symptom will fall away, when the internal problems are dealt with, he says. This church also is tied in with Teen Challenge, and has a drug addiction group…
    Meanwhile, the thought remains with me: when a church body actually POSSESSES the very Presence of God– HIs holiness convicts people of Sin! Yes, preaching is good… but the Spirit of the Lord going right into people’s hearts is what is needed. Most churches do not even approach this level…but I know that is what God is calling us all to.
    “The man of lawlessness” in II Thessalonians 2– “he sits in the temple of God, showing that he is God…” I have heard the theory that this does NOT mean, the [yet to be rebuilt] Temple in Jerusalem– that it means US– the Christian Church, who is the temple of God!!! While I don’t know if this is correct or incorrect– this report lends credence to that theory!
    Michael, “the body– the flesh is vile” ??? Have you been reading too much Augustine’s Confessions and Civitatae Dei ? That’s really Gnostic thinking! God MADE the body. Paul says “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost that dwelleth in you?” Jesus redeems our whole person “I pray that the very God of peace sancitfy you wholly, that the spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless…” (I Thess. 5:23)
    Teshuva, God didn’t create “evil” in the sense of Wickedness, sinfulness; the word there means “punishment” as in “The wise man forseeth the evil and hideth himself; the simple pass on and are punished.” There is no sin in God, He is Holy, Pure, and Righteous. He created man with the capacity to choose– and created a Punishment “if you eat thereof, ye shall surely die”. Even the first original Sinner, the angel Lucifer, in Ezekiel 28:15 “You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.” He chose Pride, it wasn’t created within him. God created him, and Adam and Eve, sinless. They all chose death rather than Life.

  32. Really sad.
    This topic hits home here. I suffered from same-self attraction as a teenager, a turbulent time in my life when my identity was under great attack. I was raised a Catholic so I just KNEW that was wrong, and was deeply ashamed of it, and HATED myself for my feelings, and was CERTAIN if I walked down that path I would end up in ETERNAL HELL. I prayed a lot and cried out to God for deliverance, and had occasional boyfriends since I was eleven (none of them lasted more than a month, until I was 18). My attraction to men, I believe as a result of my spoken and unspoken prayers, gradually grew stronger, and my attraction to girls, weaker. I NEVER had any real experience, sexual or even emotional, with a girlfriend. The Lord made sure to keep temptation away from me.
    When I was 17, I met a girl who was a lesbian. I now think she wanted something with me. But in the two years we were really close friends, she was too shy to say a thing. (She only confessed what she was when I was safely dating my current husband).
    My point is: as Proverbs says, The fear of the Lord keeps us away from evil. Sometimes, that fear is just a loving reverence. Sometimes, when the danger is stronger, God has to make His voice a scream and say, Stay out! Or you will end up in Hell!
    I know FROM EXPERIENCE it’s possible to be fully delivered from homosexuality or bisexuality. The question is, Do gays love JESUS more than they love themselves, including their gay lifestyle? I was delivered because, even though I loved myself too much, and was proud and arrogant, I loved JESUS a bit more and feared GOD a lot more and that saved me.
    You might think, THAT fear is excessive and unhealthy. Probably. But you know… If the alternative was for God to let me fall much deeper in filth, I just love and thank Him for allowing me to fear Him that much.
    And BTW, I believe this Australia tolerance is a reaction to right wing extremism. When so-called Fundamentalists engage in HATE SPEECH and say “GOD HATES FAGS”, I cry and suffer for gay people… (I understand so well how they must feel!) Do we think that’s a way to get them to convert?
    I believe if we want them to repent, the first thing is to LOVE THEM, UNCONDITIONALLY… and THEN talk about sin (in general, not in particular, as if homosexuality was their ONLY sin). I believe, again, from my experience, that the number one root cause of homosexuality is the “love of self”. Romans 1 says we love the creature more than the creature. What creature do we love the most? The one we see in the mirror! That’s our greatest idol!

  33. Hisservant rich Feb 27th 2013

    It is obvious to see from some of these posts that the leavening of “acceptance/tolerance” has permeated the church.

    The overcoming power of the Holy Spirit delivers us from the bondage to all and any kind of sin.

    bro rich

  34. I believe that we must love the sinner and hate the sin, as much as God does. In my mind, and I believe I am following Biblical Truth, homosexuality falls into the category of all sexual sins – adultery, fornication, pervsersion, etc.,(see Leviticus 19:22, Romans 1:18-25, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:8-11) and has the distinction of being the only sin (with all other sexual sins) that are against the body itself. Therefore, we must treat homosexuality the way we would treat adultery, etc. Sin of any kind corrupts the camp and MUST be dealt with, for the sake of the sinner as well as the camp. Blind acceptance of sin, in the name of tolerance and “love” does no one any good. Are we to love the person caught in such sin? YES! Do we say it’s ok to continue in such sin? NO! I don’t think we can back down on this one, no matter how much pressure is placed upon us. GOD’s Word is Truth, and THAT is what we must stand on.

  35. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    For there is no righteous man in the earth Who does good and never sins.
    -Ecclesiastes 7:20

    For God locks up all together in stubbornness/disobedience, that He should be merciful to all.
    -Romans 11:32

  36. steve nixon Feb 27th 2013

    There is a huge difference between having a sinner in your midst (church) and ‘fellowship’. There is a huge difference between showing kindness to homosexuals and approval of them; or any sin.

  37. Anna M. Feb 27th 2013

    @John Robinson ..Re:Discrimination

    Very good! We are all born shouldering the yoke of self serving sinfulness. This is our innate fallen human nature. Jesus compels that we cast off one yoke ‘nature’ to wear another. He commands repentance, though we were all born yoked to sin. He alone, gives us the desire and power to obey him. We cannot serve both natures. Sin in any form is a very heavy yoke. We groan and travail beneath it’s great bondage while calling it “freedom”. God convicts those who ask themselves, “Why does “freedom” feel so heavy?” God convicts the spirit of men, while their minds ‘labor’ to justify what their spirit, KNOWS to be wrong.
    We were designed to obey God. Christ knows we are heavy sin laden, while we believe serving self will/iniquity to be ‘freedom’. That is why he appeals to the burdened and weary soul….Jesus says:

    Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    For my yoke is easy [compliant to God], and my burden is light. ~Jesus Sent Of The Father
    Mt. 11:28-30

  38. Teshuva, Jeff, Laura,
    I loved your comments. I would have expanded on my last paragraph, except after including my own testimony of deliverance it would have been too long.

    I believe the answer for gays is far from simple. It doesn’t come from a manual of evangelism and discipleship. It certainly doesn’t come from repeating a few Bible verses in parrot fashion. It comes from us being Spirit-filled vessels, emptied of our own arrogance and self-righteousness, filled with love, peace, humility and meekness. Only a BROKEN vessel can pour out a perfume that brings salvation to the lost (including GAYS).

    And homosexuality is almost always mentioned within a list of other sins (suggesting perhaps the other sins are just as bad), including the sin of gossiping, the sin of anger, envy, jealousy, factions, lying… Oops, I think I’ve stepped on a few toes here… and the plank in my eye is hurting the most.

  39. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Teshuva, Jeff, Laura, Carina,
    I see that you really don’t understand what is the real issue here. The C3 church is not just accepting the gays, they are saying to them, “your lifestyle is OK with God, you are not sinning.” They will never hear a message of repentance from their lifestyle. They will never know they need to change. True, all sins are equally bad, but how would you take it if your church made the statement to couples who are not married and living together, “your lifestyle is not sin, it is OK that you are not married, God accepts you as you are, you are not sinning.”
    We cannot condone any lifestyle of sin and say it is not sin.

  40. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    Blessed is the man whose sin is not counted against them by the Lord.
    Ps.32:1-2 How blessed are those whose offense is forgiven, those whose sin is covered. How blessed those to whom the Lord imputes no guilt, in whom spirit is no deceit.

    Helpless I was in my sin and all I could do was say-BUT GOD!! BUT GOD!! Thank You for not leaving me this way.

  41. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

  42. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

  43. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Should all sins be accepted and ignored, or yet even claimed it is not sin any more?
    All sin has been dealt with by Jesus on the cross, but now we must repent and turn from our sinful lifestyle and live for God.
    The true church cannot accept any sinful lifestyle and say it is not sin. Homosexuals included.

  44. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    Donald, if you give me Christ or make me aware of Him in me, then he can do the work, otherwise it is my work and I can boast of it. If you give me and remind me of my sin, then that is where my focus will remain, and not on Christ who is able to deliver me.
    What I focus on, I become. Christ is righteous and the substance of his faith is what delivers.

    So Donald, you do not do any of those things that you posted above? There is no sin in you? If you have any of those things in you then we should not accept you.
    However if you were good enough for Him to die for then you are good enough for me to not speak a self righteous judgment.
    Father loves you and so do I.

  45. Kenny Atnip Feb 27th 2013

    What we are seeing here is the apostasy spoken of by Paul. This must come before Christ returns.

  46. Kenny Atnip Feb 27th 2013

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  47. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    Teshuva, notice here the term, “through preaching”
    It is through hearing the true word of God that we will know the will of God. If we never hear what is wrong, how will we know that we are doing wrong. If we are surrounded by others doing the same thing as we are, and all are accepted, and no one ever hears the truth of the Word, then the Holy Spirit has nothing to work with.

  48. Tilman Feb 27th 2013

    Some years ago I was just smiling over spiritual leaders gone astray in the land of religious liberal views. Meanwhile it looks as if the apostate Christianity overcomes even the bible believing community. Of course, Paul already said that the falling away has to come first before the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thess 2:3). Therefore everything is developing in line with the bible. I am only concerned about the rate that’s left after all this people having been fallen off. In the days of Noah – and Jesus said we would experience the same things as in the days of Noah – the rate of rescued people was (about) 1 man:1 billion unbelieving people, or let’s say 8:1 billion because of the family bonus. Hopefully we don’t end up with the same rate.

  49. Kenny Atnip Feb 27th 2013


    if we have Christ then we have dominion over sin in our lives and are no longer slaves to it. If we remain in our sins we do not walk upright.

    1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

  50. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Not hearing the truth of the Word of God is the reason many, perhaps most churches worldwide are in such apostasy. The issue is far beyond homosexuality. But homosexuality is the subject of this forum at this time. Shall we preach the truth or ignore it?

  51. Ivan Poulter Feb 27th 2013

    I often consider you a liberal Christian. However, in this matter, I am in full agreement with you. The last ‘church’ I was in, was kicked out, I learnt, through the activism of the gays and lesbians within the ‘church’.

    Speaking to an ex-elder, he said the issue of gays came up in an elder’s meeting. None knew how to address it. He admitted to answering, “I don’t know how we go about dealing with this issue, but I can tell you, if we do not address it, it is going to hurt us severely!”

    He saw the ‘church’ slide downhill, to where he could no longer participate. He also said to me, “The elder’s meetings are a sham!. Each meeting I go there, we each behave as though we have met one another for the first time. It is very superficial.”

    I have had lesbians within the congregation I have pastored. I spoke to each individually. I heard it said via the grape vine. “Ivan has made us welcome, but he has made it clear that my lifestyle is hurting me and others. Rather than feeling condemned, I have only felt encouragement to walk in the ways of The Almighty. Step by step, He strengthens me to walk in His purity!”

    On the one hand, I understood, as a body, we were a holy, righteous sanctuary. To have the presence of The Almighty, we were to be as He is. On the other hand, I also saw that we were a hospital, healing the hurt and the wounded. If I had my way, I would never have allowed the perverted within our midst as a sanctuary, expecting the Full Manifested Presence. I would have had meetings were the perverted could be healed and delivered. Then when ‘ready; bring them into the corporate praise, worship and manifested presence.

    Simply, an outer court, an holy place, and the holy of holies place. But, easier said than done.

    Under no circumstances did I ever CONDONE the lifestyle. In every way, I understood homosexuality to be a perversion.

    Seven years ago, I told a DENOMINATIONAL, a Pentecostal Bishop, “It will not be long and gays and lesbians will be welcome as leaders, next within the Baptist ‘churches’ and then in the Pentecostal and Charismatic ‘churches’. He disagreed with me vehemently. It’s, of course, happening.

  52. alphafaith Feb 27th 2013

    If everyone in the Church were just like me, what would that Church be. Who among us is the standard to follow. If I measure myself against men I find I do better than some and worse than others. Such pride! But if I compare myself to Christ, I realize I am always far short of the glory of God. Who are you o man who judges another? If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
    Rom 2:1-3 “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?” Do you?
    The Church is alive and well, not having spot, wrinkle or blemish. Why? Because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ and nothing else. Not works, grades, effort or performance. Simply grace.
    I am holy, but not because of my own righteousness, but because of HIs. The garments I wear are His because the garment he wore was mine. Oh the splendors of His Majesty’s grace and love.
    It is the will of God that if we trust in the law for righteousness that our sin become exeedingly sinful. Why you ask? Because when our sin becomes exeedingly sinful we are confronted with the failure of law-based living and turning to simple faith in His righteousness we are accounted as righteous. Praise be to the glory and majesty of HIs grace!

  53. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    So Donald, you do not do any of those things that you posted above? There is no sin in you? If you have any of those things in you then we should not accept you.

    The issue is not accepting the person, it is accepting the sin and saying it is not sin, you are OK with God as you are.

  54. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    What is the Holy Spirit? Is it not the awareness that God is in you? And surely if He is in me and my focus is on that then there is power for Him to work.
    Preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

  55. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Teshuva, you say to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God. What exactly is that gospel?

    1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…

    Is this scripture not part of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Should we not preach against sin?

  56. This acceptance should come as no surprise when you consider that churches have for a long time been accepting of divorce and remarriage. After this became the norm, accepting of homosexuality becomes easy. Next there will be a push to accept pedophilia, incest – there is no stopping place once folks get on the slippery slope of unrepentant sin.

    It will only take the second return of Christ to stop this madness that threatens to destroy mankind.

  57. does it have to be so complicated ?

    Jesus hated SIN but HE and we need to love the sinner. Blah, blah, blah. We know that but how do we walk in it.? As Jesus did. Did he not welcome sinners?
    The church needs to welcome those who are gay / lesbian but they need to know they will hear about what Jesus said and says about sin and why sin is not good for them and what happens or is blocked when a person sins.
    Why would I choose to not sin if what is held out for me I don’t know about ? Talk about life after death (salvation from eternal fire ) and how relative is that to my NOW and you want me to stop doing what I want for that ? Maybe if the church starts to talk about relationship with God NOW, people may want that, more than fire insurance!
    A few signs and wonders helps too( ministry prayer to heal hurting hearts ). That’s why Jesus taught the gospel with signs and wonders to follow. (I am not endorsing S&W without the WORD or false power trips. ) But the WORD expressed in love, truth and relational may help to touch the heart of those seeking love and relationship with God.
    We are all made to love and be loved. those that are in these lifestyles just have some wires crossed and are disconnected from TRUE LOVE. When they meet TRUE LOVE they can disconnect from sin! This needs to be preached -taught- shown…..AND be compassionate with them when they come to realize TRUTH. They need LOVE that they can Trust and lean on without fear that they will lose it or be judged.
    Also be gracious with time, its not a black and white thing to step out of a relationship; its a process. The sex part is wrong but the partners are probably nice people both needing TRUE LOVE. There is more to their relationships than sex. What is good needs to be esteemed and valued; what is bad needs to go.
    Unless their hearts are touched the application of the law will not work. Their hearts yearning brought them into the bondage of sin. Truth needs to applied in Love to their hearts, not just their minds to be free.

  58. Donald,
    You got me wrong. I’m not misunderstanding the issue. If you read BOTH my comments carefully, especially the first one, you’ll see I’m not justifying the church doing this abomination of calling evil good. I’m only saying, it’s the natural reaction to the self-righteousness we have displayed for decades (centuries?) against this and other kinds of sin (especially sexual sin).

    Homosexuality, fornication, adultery, are wrong. Period. I take God at His word. And it’s an abomination when the Church, instead of being watchmen on the walls and WARNING people about impending judgment, tell them it’s ok. Jeremiah speaks a lot about people who, to say it in modern terms, put a band-aid on the wound when the underlying problem is cancer or aids.

    I believe BALANCE is very necessary, when approaching this and other challenges we face in an increasingly secular, pagan and antiChristian world and worldview.

    We keep fighting with weapons of the flesh and that is plainly a waste of time. Only with the HOLY SPIRIT can we win souls for Christ (LGBT souls or heterosexual, “normal” sinners). I believe when we participate in demonstrations DEMANDING to be heard, screaming in horror against gay marriage, abortion and the legalization of drugs, all we do (that’s my humble opinion) is give a message that we’re a rule-based, prohibition-based religion. And that’s NOT the Gospel.

    Where should we stand? At the THRONE OF GRACE! In UNCEASING intercession, first for the church (because there are many unregenerate souls among us, and many WOLVES and BLIND and DEAD people misleading us!) and THEN for the unsaved world.

    Is 62
    1 For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace,
    And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
    Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
    And her salvation as a lamp that burns.
    6 I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem;
    They shall never hold their peace day or night.
    You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent,
    7 And give Him no rest till He establishes
    And till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

    What is most needed at this hour is INTERCESSORS. Only then can there be any power in our efforts. The Word will go forth, evangelists and preachers will have a renewed zeal for Christ and Him Cruficified… and Risen, and VICTORIOUS.

  59. Teshuva you keep missing the point. Donald is not talking of sinlessness, he is saying that all sin must be called sin & is to be repented of. Including all the sin in his & my life. What the problem is when churches say that a particular sin is ok (not sin), it means one doesn’t have to repent of it.
    CArina, thanks for your testimony. The fact that you didn’t engage in anything is what we all need to do. As much as the homosexual has a sex drive so do all the herterosexual have a drive. As much as the one has to curtail the drive so does the other until married. Why is a homosexuals incorrect drive need to be accommodated & a herterosexuals drive must controlled, in fact I mustn’t even think about it & pastors have no problems preaching it.

  60. Truth Seeker Feb 27th 2013

    Mat 7:15 “But beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are savage wolves.
    Mat 7:16 “By their fruits you shall know them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
    Mat 7:17 “So every good tree yields good fruit, but a rotten tree yields wicked fruit.
    Mat 7:18 “A good tree is unable to yield wicked fruit, and a rotten tree to yield good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 “So then, by their fruits you shall know them –
    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
    Mat 7:22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’
    Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

  61. miss bridgewater Feb 27th 2013

    Well, I was in the glbt community for many years, and am transexual. I wouldnt walk into a pentecostal church no matter was I was or am. Though I have repented of sins and avoid as much as the HS reveals to me, I have lived celebate for many years, but I will never turn my back on the glbt folks. I knew the time was coming after all these years they would open the doors after having them slammed in their faces for many years, why would any of them desire to go now, when I know so many have had a personal relationship with the lord in freedom of religion. The goal now is to give EVERYONE this so called laying on of hands/ hand to forehead spirit transfer. It will come down to division of those who HAVE IT, against those who dont have IT. I have seen all the so called manifestations Andrew has taught and showed/revealed to the world and I see this so called anointing as judgement as scriptures seem to show me.What good does this sprit transfer do, it may free people of alchol/drugs/sex addictions, but then they end up addicted to being drunk/high/sexual in THE SPIRIT?? The gays will bring much revenue into these so called churches, again I wouldnt advise anyone to walk in these doors with a counterfeit spirit. It is leavening the whole organized church and forming the new world religion. We are told in Gods word to seek the old paths, and I try and tell every gay person I know to seek these and NOT the new, no new revelations, no new power as all these will be taught by the false ones. I will let God do the gifting WITHOUT any laying on of hands, truth is, gifting has taken the place and become the OBJECT/idolitry of worship today with great music. This world can keep it, I wish they all would come to repentence, I have begged pleaded with the huge assemblies of god in Indiana to repent, as all the new age has taken over the entire bunch. They wont hear one word I have to say, so let judgement fall. There ARE some in the GLBT community who do love the lord of the bible and reject the new one, we dont have much of a voice, but we are here! I have written gay leaders of churches who now love the whole godess thing, universalism and they wont hear me either, Most say to me, that I must not put God in a box. Fooooey!

  62. alphafaith Feb 27th 2013

    The greatest offence to the cross of Christ is trust in the law for righteousness. The greatest danger for those in the body of Christ is to preach a law based condemnation riddled message. “If I have ceased to preach the cross, why am I still persecuted.” The religious mind cannot, has not nor will ever embrace the glorious gospel of grace.

  63. Hi Andrew and everyone else who has commented here.

    I think there are a number of misconceptions that need to be addressed before we can discuss this issue in a truly Biblical manner.

    First; the gathering together of the church is NOT primarily (nor even secondarily) for the benefit of anyone other than the members of the body of Christ. We are told to gather together for edification and to build one another up in the faith, as well as to worship the Lord together. There is only one reference in the whole of the New Testament to unbelievers being present in a gathering of the church and it is phrased by Paul as follows:-

    “If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?” (1 Cor.14:23)

    Note that Paul says IF the church be gathered and unbelievers come in, not WHEN. The New Testament writers, and Paul in particular, present us with a picture of church gatherings that is far, far different from what we know today. The idea presented is that the church gathers together to build one another up in the faith and to minister to one another so that they could each go out into the world and preach the Gospel to those around about them, both in word and deed. There is no mention anywhere from Matthew to Revelation, of an evangelistic church meeting.

    The second thing we need to realise is that the Gospel as preached by Jesus, John the Baptist and all the Apostles, is best phrased as;
    “Repent of your sins and accept the grace of God through faith in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ His Son”.
    Although it has become popular over the last few decades, not one of the sermons found in the New Testament mentions that God loved the hearers, in fact, the word ‘love’ doesn’t appear AT ALL in the whole book of Acts, which contains quite a few sermons to unbelievers.
    Of course Jesus told Nicodemus that ‘God so loved the world’, but Nicodemus was a Jew who was trying to follow God and he acknowledged that Jesus was from God, so you cannot appeal to John 3:16 and say that this should be the focus of Gospel preaching, because in the scriptures, it just isn’t so. Yes, we know that God loves people and wants them to be saved, but the message throughout the NT is that people must first acknowledge their sinfulness, then repent and be saved.

    The third misconception common today, is that; ‘there is no sins greater than another’. This sounds right, but in fact the Bible doesn’t say this. What is true, is that no matter how small a sin may be, it will keep us from Heaven if we haven’t accepted Christ by faith. The Bible does NOT teach us that all sins are equal in God’s eyes. For example;

    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mat.5:22)

    Jesus clearly teaches three different levels of severity of sin and three different levels of severity of judgement for each sin, so the idea that all sins are equal is unscriptural. There are other scriptures that show that this is so, such as 1 Cor.5:1, where Paul complains that fornication is bad enough, but that the KIND of fornication they are tolerating is not even tolerated by the heathen around about them. Clearly, he regards this form of fornication as worse than others, showing once again that there are varying degrees of sinful behaviour.

    The fourth thing that needs to be addressed is the issue of allowing sinners to go on attending church gatherings indefinitely. The Bible calls the gathering together of members of the Body; Fellowship. It also tells us that we have fellowship with one another when the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us. (Rom.5:5) As this clearly shows, we can NOT have fellowship with unbelievers, because they DON’T have the Holy Ghost.
    Paul also tells us to remove from our fellowship meetings those members of the Body who have become fornicators until such time as they repent, while at another point, he tells us that we CANNOT have unbelievers in our fellowship because of the influence their presence will have on the whole fellowship;

    “14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”
    (2 Cor.6:14-18)

    Taking those points and applying them to the discussion at hand, it is clear from the scriptures, that we should not be allowing unbelievers to be in our gatherings indefinitely and indiscriminately.
    This is not to say that we ought to be anything less than loving and gracious to them as we preach the Gospel in word and deed, but that such things should be done OUTSIDE the normal gathering of the Body for fellowship.

    The problem that is outlined in the article above, is that people who are clearly unregenerate sinners are being accepted into fellowship, without any requirement for them to change or repent of their sinful lifestyle. Worse, the Bible clearly says that such a lifestyle is a direct result of their rejection of God, in Romans 1:18-32.
    The sin of homosexuality is also the ONLY sin that the Bible says is unnatural (against nature; v.26). While it is true that all sin is against God’s standard, homosexuality is very clearly far different from even fornication such as adultery between a man and a woman, as that is not against the natural order of things, but is against God’s standards of holiness.
    So, homosexuality is by definition a step further, in that it is an unnatural type of fornication, that goes against the natural function of the body. This means that it IS very different from other sins and the Bible spells this out in no uncertain terms. A similar type of sin would be paedophilia, and of course, bestiality. Both these are also unnatural and recognised as such by even unbelievers.

    The teaching of the scriptures is very clear; that we cannot have fellowship with people who do such things, not for any reason. We are to love them and pray for them, show them compassion and preach the Gospel to them for sure, but we are forbidden to have fellowship with them by the Word of God and it’s not good enough to point to the fact that we all stumble in our every day lives, as there is a vast difference between such lapses in our holiness and the determined, persistent practice of things that God has clearly condemned as unacceptable.

    How would it be if we were to apply this misguided ‘love’ to a serial killer? Should we be as tolerant of his sinful lifestyle? Why not? After all, he is no worse a sinner than the rest of us and he needs to hear the Gospel too.

    Of course that idea is ridiculous, but no more so than the idea of allowing homosexuals to be regular participants in our gatherings.

    Also, let’s not be fooled into believing the modern catch-cry of “Judge not…”, when the passage taken in context is all about how we NEED to exercise judgement, otherwise how will be able to obey Jesus’ command to discern (or judge) between good trees and evil trees, or sheep and wolves in sheep’s clothing?

    The Bible calls us to exercise righteous judgement (John 7:24), which does not mean we have to be perfect, but that we are not being hypocritical in our judgement (Mat.7:3-5). In other words, we may not judge someone’s anger problem if we have the same problem with anger ourselves. As long as we are not leading a homosexual lifestyle in secret, we are perfectly at liberty to judge those who are openly doing so and not only that, but we are required by scripture to do so (Rom.16:17).

    Thankyou Andrew for your diligence in sounding the alarm once again, although, as in the days of the prophets, I’m afraid you will get little thanks and much criticism for doing so.


  64. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    thanks for your word. Actually, I too was brought through a time of attraction to a sinful lifestyle, not homosexual, but a lifestyle of drugs and not living for God. As a teenager, God moved my family to another state, away from my current friends, and then reached my heart and I gave my life to HIM. If I would have remained where I was, with my old friends, God only knows what my life would have become. This is one reason now that I group all sins in the same category.
    God is against them all. We need to repent from them all. We need to hear preaching that tells us this, and not accept any lifestyle of sin (such as a lifestyle of being a liar…good post!)

  65. And Donald, reading what you have posted, I agree with most, if not all of it. I think Teshuva, another Christian formerly trapped by this sin, also agrees with most of what you say. Neither of us is saying it’s ok to BE gay (for one thing, I don’t believe homosexuality is a way of BEING, in fact the opposite, it’s a problem of mistaken/confused/perverted identity) and even less, justify STAYING gay after Christ has come to a heart.

    We who were formerly tending towards this or formerly fell into this trap (or drugs, or promiscuity, or whatever strongly addictive sin) and were delivered by JESUS testify of the power of the blood in cleansing us of this and ANY other sin and demonic stronghold.

    Churches that justify this sin and accept the sinner without mentioning the word “REPENTANCE” are wrong. Churches that judge and condemn without LOVING the lost sinner (Come on guys, we all say we love the sinner and hate the sin. Do we? Do we REALLY?) are wrong too.

    We need the Holy Spirit to change US first, if we want to reach the lost. We need to help the people in our camp reach a biblical understanding of salvation, repentance, relationship. Otherwise, when the gays DO come, what will they find in our churches? The same backbiting, gossiping, envy, competition, arrogance they find elsewhere?

    If we want the world to Flee Babylon, let’s make sure to flee Babylon ourselves first!

  66. Woe unto those who calls evil good and good evil. I sincerely believe that it was dropped in my spirit many years ago that the persecution of the True Church will come through the sodomite movement. All those who are not willing to accept the lifestyle as acceptable to God will be labeled as intolerant and anti-love. I believe that open rebuke is better than secret love. If unrepentant sinners are comfortable in a “church” then The True Gospel is not being preached and The Spirit of The Living God does not reside there.

  67. Victoria Bingham Feb 27th 2013

    To Jeff Dyas, who considered Andrew’s letter to be too ‘strong’.
    Jeff, the Lord would not have told the man ‘go and sin no more’ if it were not available.
    Then, the last thing Homosexuals need is ‘acceptance’. That is the same as saying ‘you’re OK as you are’.
    Jeff, you are right, we all need help with sin. But until sin is recognized and called what it is, the first step can never be taken. As many people as there are in the church who are drawn to sinful practices, including the viewing of pornography online, are all in danger of eternal separation from God. Can you think of anything more terrible to imagine? God is love and God is light. To be forever without God is to be forever in solitude and blackness. It is here that the scriptures describe weeping and knashing of teeth.. and it is here that the people who wind up there will weep, forever, because people like you soft pedaled the fact that they were on a fast track to oblivion. Can people who are drawn into such dark activities be helped? Does not the scripture say that Jesus Christ can help to the uttermost? Any man that does not avail himself of this help is ‘without excuse’ and like Esau whose weakness and failure to ask God for help, led to the forfeiting of his birthright for mere porridge, and who’s endless tears did nothing to restore it, so will the day be for the men and women who refuse to repent and change their habits with God’s help. And by calling on churches and ministers to ‘accept them’ you are part of their problem and will be held accountable.
    ALL of the saints have had to turn from wicked ways. ALL of us began in sin and were on a fast track to perdition. Some sins are more obvious than others that’s all. Unforgiveness is an unforgivable sin, for example. Why? It is the height of hypocrisy. It is a man who, while unwilling to forgive others, expects God to forgive him.
    How about Envy? Proverbs forbids it. What about Unbelief? Numbers names this as ‘an evil report’. And the list goes on.
    But to specifically address addictions such as alcoholism or adultery or homosexuality, there may very well be demonic influence involved. Again, Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost.
    In my family there are at least 4 of us who were demon possessed. 2 of my siblings still are, after 50 years. One – is an anorexic her whole life and who looks like death itself, though by God’s grace and my prayers she lives. Another is epileptic his whole life, and in each of these I have seen their demons. I was also possessed. For 15 years. My demons included Prader Willi. That is the supernatural compulsion to chew. (you see this in people who cannot stop eating their fingers and nails, to a lesser extent) then in others it is so powerful they will literally eat ANYTHING to satisfy the compulsion. I had this. After 15 years of searching for truth and deliverance, I was led to take a Bible Course. At the end of the class, once back in my home, alone, the Lord visited me and spoke at length to me. FIRST he told me I was delivered from the 15 years of demonic oppression. I was. Then He told me ‘it would never return’. That was 36 years ago, and it never has. Then He gave me instructions for life, which I followed ever since, and today at 56 years of age, I am in extraordinary health. I have not visited a doctor in 14 years, have taken no medications my whole adult life, have no ailments whatsoever, never get sick, and the best part, have no compulsions of any kind. That chapter closed so completely as to seem like another lifetime. Now no one might have understood my behavior to be sinful. But it was. I was on a path of self destruction. People like me go to doctors to get help. I went to heaven, and was not only helped, it cost me nothing and saved my eternal life.
    What I have learned is that ANY man can be delivered from ANYthing, if he is willing. The LORD is able.
    To say we need to ‘accept’ a man’s sinful state is the same as leaving him on his path to eternal oblivion and that itself is sin.
    May people like Andrew continue to have the courage and spiritual understanding to call sin what it is, and get people to help themselves while it is still day. Night is nigh and time is short.

  68. GO Smith Feb 27th 2013

    I appreciate the opening line–so it begins. A little leaven works through the whole lump, and by accommodating those who maintain an unholy lifestyle, it causes the whole denomination to move towards apostasy.

  69. Mike Boudreaux Feb 27th 2013

    I learned long ago that just because something is accepted by the pastor does not mean it is accepted by God.

  70. Teshuva Feb 27th 2013

    I may be missing the point, but because of His righteousness, I did not miss the Christ.
    Where my sin did abound His grace did much more abound.

  71. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Thanks again, and I also believe that this sort of forum post can be somewhat dangerous in that it can get into a sinner-bashing issue. The original idea is that the C3 church has accepted the sin of homosexuality and is ignoring the need to repent.
    I believe we should widen the scope of this sin issue to include all sins that the church, worldwide, has accepted and is ignoring.
    It is definitely a sign of the apostasy of the end times.
    Another issue is this.
    If a church (local body) makes this choice to accept sin and not call it sin, should we do what the Word says,

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

  72. miss bridgewater Feb 27th 2013

    I know the GLBT community is guilty of physical fornication, but the church is guilty of spiritual fornication. We are all called to be over comers and this is what I strive for, and beg others to do reguardless of anyones orientation. All the years I was in the gay community, I NEVER was without fear or reverence for the lord as I was saved as a child and always asked for his mercy patience and forgiveness the entire time I was out of fellowship, the day did come when I just felt a pulling from the universe and felt extreme sense of urgency to act in my spirit. I did fall on my knees, cried, begged and said ok lord do whatever you want with me and I am submitting to what he wills not mine, and he is leading me to share the gospel and lead them back to the Jesus of the bible and the old paths. I mean Jesus said there was no male and female in christ through Paul, Jesus had much to say concerning the eunichs, which many anti gay folks get ticked off about, but I stand firm on his words, some are created by themselves for the kingdom of heaven, let those who have understanding , understand. Obviously many just dont get it. I do not condon sin in anyone, but I trust and believe if anyone truely seeks him, will find him and hear what the HS has to say and I dont mean the pentecostal spirit that is being promoted that possesses people. I do believe it was originally the birth of the movement that allowed the enemy come into the church with “their” teaching of you must have the 2nd work, and that some supernatual manifestation of some kind had to take place, phooey to that as well. After much study, it would appear from day one, pentecostals let some spirit enter in that gave them a lust for anything supernatural, then Bam, in the 90’s THEY ALL went running AFTER what God said not to do, The leaders and their wives got infected, then brought the plage back home . Shame on them. Now its out of control. The holy spirit does revival not men and not by the big shows. I drew nearer to the lord and he came knocking at my door , almost literally without the supernatural stuff, I have seen enough of the supernatural to last a life time, and its sickening, however I am not afraid to call on him and let HIM do as he wills.

  73. The institutional church is leavened. Sin is tolerated in the church because their gospel has made sin acceptable practice for christians. Sin doesn’t threaten your eternity. Sin doesn’t separate from God. Sin no longer has real consequence before God. Sin no longer leads to death and hell. A false gospel is the culprit. The gospel is freedom from sin, not freedom to sin.

    Leaven happens when we tolerate known sin by believers in church and don’t call for repentance or excommunication. It encourages other believers to compromise with sin while thinking they will still be saved. The whole will be leavened. You will literally end up with a church that has no saved people in it because sin has spread to all..

    I wrote in Andrew’s- Can’t Find a Church post that homosexuality will not be kept out of the main stream churches or even the pulpits. I say again, you will be leavened into compromising with sin or you will “come out”.

  74. The false clerical system places men/women in a lofty position over His heritage. Humilty is the first casualty. Pride takes up the vacuum. Then lust for bucks. The widows and poor be damned. They better pay. Now what is that one verse…’the LOVE of money is the root of…….something!! Lo and behold…maybe the ‘church’ is wrong and God is right after all! What say you?

  75. Here are the facts. Real non-counterfeit leadership recognizes that born again believers continue to struggle with some of their old issues as they continue to renew their minds. Formers drunks, former prostitutes, former thieves, former homosexuals, former everything. The key word is “former”. In the church, the fact is, if sin is left unchecked it spreads through out the congregation. The doors of the Church are wide open to the “former sinner” there not open to the unrepentant sinner. If you insist on being “unrepentant”, and want to twist the scriptures to say what it obviously does not, and insist that you be “excepted” as you are, you are a counterfeit. Hirelings will let the counterfeit in because it helps their Babylonian bottom line. The hireling must be removed, they send millions to Hell and those who are awake must resist and shout it from the roof tops and confront the hireling in no uncertain terms.

  76. alphafaith Feb 27th 2013

    The leaven of the pharisees was legalism or law-based compliance for righteousness which denies the grace of God. The leaven that works through the lump is not a sin in particular, but rather the sin – the sin that leads to all other sin. It is pride and always comes before the fall.

    The strength and power of sin is the law. 1Cor 15:56. When we preach against sin we are sowing leaven into the body which will produce the very sin we are attempting to irradicate.

    Homosexuals you may take heart, be encouraged and delivered through the simple gospel of grace. You are not under the law, but grace. Forget the law as a means of righteousness! Yours, your pastors, your grandfather’s or Moses’ for it is only through the forbidden that you are held in captivity. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe.

    You are not more saved by having less sin. You are saved by grace through faith period.

    Put off the veil of the law and freedom will come. Rom 7:8 Sin taking opportunity by the commandment PRODUCED IN ME ALL MANNER OF EVIL DESIRE. Not my words.

    Rom 7:5-6 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which WERE AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
    Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
    Rom 7:10-12 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
    Rom 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

    The power, strength and energy of sin comes from only one source – a law. The law is good, perfect and holy, just weak through the flesh. Attempting to right the ship by compliance to the law causes us to fall from the power of grace.

    End the love affair with the law as a means of righteousness and the storms of sin will amazingly disappear.

    Praise to His Majesty the King, the Lord Jesus Christ!

    [email protected]

  77. This should come as no surprise. Many Pentecostal leaders abandoned sound biblical teaching decades ago. These leaders have maintained a counterfeit spirits presence for so long that they can not recognize the true Holy Spirit at all, much less know when he departs. Very much like Samson not knowing the Spirit had departed.

    It has started indeed. May God have mercy on these errant leaders and bring judgement and repentance to his Church.

  78. Mrs Hale Feb 27th 2013

    There is a very fine line here. This is what I always tell my LGBT friends when the subject comes up.

    Yes, I am a Christian, and I love you exactly how you are. No, I don’t agree with your decision, I do believe it is a decision and not some quirk of genetics, and I do believe that it is a sin. HOWEVER, your sin is not any different than any other multitude of sins, some that even I myself have committed. Which in turn really gives me no right to judge you based on your choice to sin. The only thing that I will say is that you don’t HAVE to choose this. You CAN repent and be forgiven, just as I have. But, it is your choice. If you chose to continue in your sin, I will still love you. Just know that I don’t agree with your lifestyle and I won’t support Pride or any other movements like that. Not because I don’t love you, but because I do.

    Normally when I explain it to my friends like that they understand completely. I also have a chance to share with them a lot more than I would if I completely wrote them off.

    I understand the necessity of preaching the Truth, and calling for repentance with out “fluff”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! This is just how I’ve found to share the Truth in a language of “love” that everyone can understand.

  79. Scripture is clear! You can NOT serve 2 masters. You can NOT serve God and money. Once the so-called “church” accepted prosperity and success above or instead of holiness and faithfulness, it was only a matter of time.

    Since the “love of money” is the ROOT of all evil, it only stands to reason that all kinds of bad fruit would come forth.

    Homosexuality is actually the only sin that is a judgment that comes due to people refusing to “love the Truth”. Because they refuse to love the truth they are given over to un-natural affections; men with men, and women with women.

    Notice how the Catholics handle the Bible, yet replace Scripture with anti-Christ lies about Mary and Purgatory having salvation power. Not only are Catholics plagued by a huge pedophile problem, they reportedly have 18-50% homosexual priesthood, depending on which poll of priests you believe. Meanwhile, society has a 3% homosexual rate. It’s dangerous to reject TRUTH.

    The judgment of the church has begun. Unprecedented persecution is on the way. The fall of Damascus is a harbinger of that.

    Looks like the flashy, fleshy, money-loving pastors have been dupped big time. More of this world, anyone?

  80. gloria goold Feb 27th 2013

    I just now finished listening to a prophecy of the terrible sexual happenings that would be in the church in the next years. And then opened my inbox to find this letter. So not surprised. Many years ago a cousin saw written in the sky above the Pentecostal denomination in our town the word “Ichabod”.What does the term “Ichabod” mean in the Bible? . that God’s glory departed Israel? So it means Gods Glory has departed Pentecostalism….. A prophecy coming to pass….

  81. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

  82. Kristine Feb 27th 2013

    Embracing homosexuals is not “political correctness”, it is showing them God’s love. disappointed by your edginess with this issue Andrew.

  83. The demonic ruler Belial(Beliyaal) seeks to seduce and bring sexual immorality into the Church so that God’s judgement would rise upon it.

    If my research is correct the next phase is God’s judgement upon His house, and then the world. The ‘great falling away from sound doctrine’ (apostasy) is here. These are the last days and we shouldn’t be shocked, but rise with righteous anger and indignation declaring, ‘enough is enough’. There must be a line drawn.

    Be warned it is not just church they want to attend, but to change it for their benefit, so they will not feel convicted but comfortable with sin. This can’t be sorted out with intellect this is a spiritual war(We wrestle not against flesh and blood..) Who is the biggest enemy of Satan on earth? The body of Christ. Who is under the sway of the evil one? the whole
    world. The leaven of Herod has infiltrated the Church(political correctness).

    2Cor6:15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial?..KJV
    If repentance is not preached in the Church and the body is apathetic to the sins in it, what can we expect but tolerance of it.
    When sexual immorality is ignored in the body it defiles the whole lump, and speedily if it starts with the headship.

    Homosexuality goes even greater into perversion because it is out of God’s natural order, it is undeniable sexual immorality, but twisted even further. What’s next in line maybe paedophiles or maybe bestiality, or incest,..come on where is the line?
    This is the spirit of Belial that uses Jezebel to seduce many…This is an attack to destroy the Church, to make it powerless.
    Think about it, if the sexually immoral want a church why don’t they start their own, no, they don’t want that, they want to corrupt the ones that are established. Israel rose up against the sons of Belial, with great disgust in the old testament because they went to far, they crossed the line of moral standards, even non-Jews rose up in disgust
    Prayer warfare is the answer. If these want to be in the Church let them repent and be subject to deliverance, if not please protect the sheep, especially the young in the Lord.

    We love people that are gay but not the filthy demons in them that want to pervert the house of God. Protect the young ones that the enemy tries to pervert with this foul spirit coming into the assembly of the saints. Do you want your children to consider a gay lifestyle or entertain one? I don’t. If we accept it as an ok life style then woe to our own children because we have surely departed from God’s grace and mercy and twisted His Word to justify our own ways.

  84. Love Wins Feb 27th 2013

    The visible church is in a pinch. It’s difficult to call out sexual sin when pornography is so widely used and the pews are literally filled with adulterers (second marriages while spouse still living).

  85. Luke 24:47, …REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Titus 1:9, …encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    Isaiah 58:1, Declare to my people their rebellion and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.

    1 John 1:9, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

  86. Mesha,
    I personally share your conviction that the “tolerance” movement will lead to more intolerance and end up in persecution including the death penalty to “fundamentalists” like us Christians. And the homosexuality acceptance movement is one of the many heads of that dragon. That’s why, more than ever, we need to intercede, for the lost world, but especially for each other, for the Church, for each of our brothers and sister to remain steadfast in the midst of increasing pressure.
    Read Isaiah 62, especially verse 1 and verses 6 and 7.
    And Victoria B, I think your comment is a good example of the balance I was talking about. Thanks for sharing your testimony.
    Dear brothers and sisters, I urge all of you, myself first and foremost, to take heed of the words of James 4:
    7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

    Don’t bypass verse 9. It’s so important!!!!

    I received the same wisdom from Ecclesiastes 7
    1 A good name is better than precious ointment,
    And the day of death than the day of one’s birth;
    2 Better to go to the house of mourning
    Than to go to the house of feasting,
    For that is the end of all men;
    And the living will take it to heart.
    3 Sorrow is better than laughter,
    For by a sad countenance the heart is made better.
    4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
    But the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
    5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise
    Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
    6 For like the crackling of thorns under a pot,
    So is the laughter of the fool.
    This also is vanity.

  87. Alphafaith

    The leaven of the pharisees was hypocrisy. Luke 12:1. The hypocrisy was their outward form of righteousness without the inward reality of the heart. This was Jesus condemnation of them in Matt 23. You clean the outside but don’t clean the inside. This is legalism. A form without inward reality. Not true righteousness.

    The church of today says something completely opposite. “I may not be clean outside but you don’t know my heart”. I still believe, I still love Jesus even though I sin. Wrong!! Jesus says “You know them by your fruits”. “He who commits sin is the slave of sin” “If you love Me you obey Me” “You have to practice righteousness to be righteous, he who practices sin is of the devil”.1Jn 3:7,8. This is lawlessness as a gospel.

    There is such a thing as legalism and there is such a thing as lawlessness. Legalism is the threat of a Jewish gospel and lawlessness is the threat of a Gentile gospel. Legalism is hypocrisy because the standard can’t be reached. Lawlessness is throwing off all restraint. There is no form or standard. Lawlessness is the saved in sin gospel that has prevailed in christendom today. You can be saved in your sins. There is no standard to which you are accountable in the church or by which you will be judged by God.

    We preach repentance from sin to be saved.

    “Repent and believe the gospel” Jesus said to do both, repent and believe. Repentance and faith are linked. “not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God”

    “That repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. Luke 24:47.

    Guess what! If you are not going to repent of your sins, then you are not going to be forgiven of your sins according to Jesus. And if you are not forgiven of your sins, then how can you be saved? You can’t be saved without being forgiven and you can’t be forgiven without repenting of your sins.

    What is repentance? Jesus tells the woman taken in adultery, “Go and sin no more” Jn 8:11. Jesus tells the man who was lame for 38 years, “Stop sinning, lest a worse thing come upon you” Jn 5:14. Stop it or something worse will happen. What is worse than 38 years of being lame? I take it Jesus means hell. Stop sinning or you are going to hell. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness and sin not” 1Cor 15:34.

    This is what repentance means. STOP!!! You must stop sinning. That is repentance per Jesus and Paul. You must stop sinning to be forgiven. You must stop sinning to be saved. If you don’t stop sinning you won’t be forgiven. That applies to everyone by the way, saved and unsaved alike. This is christianity 101 as I see it.

    Law is not the method of righteousness but law sets the standard for righteousness and shows us our need of grace. “That the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit” Rom 8:4.

  88. Sandra G. Feb 27th 2013

    Greetings to all, and peace be with you.
    Wow! what a topic, not sure I can say anything that hasn’t already been said, but I’ll try. Number 1, we all fall short of the glory of God. Number 2, As Paul said, “I die daily”. Number 3, Sin cannot dwell in the house of God, no matter what, sin is sin, there is only one unforgivable sin. YES God loves everybody, otherwise Jesus’ death would have been in vain, however God will not abide with sin, this is why we have a choice, HE gave us this with HIS life, repentance is required when one is in sin. It is typical today for those of us who oppose the Gay movement to be called haters, this is not true, at least on my part. I don’t hate anyone, and I don’t judge anyone, however, I do pray for them, that they would repent, and “go, and sin
    no more”, but as we are flesh, and flesh is weak, this becomes a daily struggle. How many time must I forgive my brother, 7 times, Jesus was asked, HIS reply no, 70 x 7. We all sin, none are perfect, God knows this, but we must ask for forgiveness, and He is faithful to forgive. Once we have come to know the truth, does this give us the right to continue in sin, (God forbid), we are to fight against the sin nature in which we are all born into. Whether one wants to admit it or not, homosexuality is a sin, and is the main reason for the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, remember what they wanted to do to the angles that came to warn Lott, it sure wasn’t to play baseball. There are many scriptures that point to this, but I think the book of Jude is the best one to read on this subject. I will close with this, don’t hate, pray, don’t judge, lest ye be judged, love one another as HE loved us, and if a brother or sister is in the fire pull them out, warn them, lest the coals be on your head in the day of judgement, if they continue after having knowledge of truth, then they condemn themselves. Just remember, we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ Jesus, King of Kings, and Lord of Lord’s, All Praise, and Glory to HIM forever.

    In HIS love & grace

  89. Donald,
    You’re right on with this comment:
    “I believe we should widen the scope of this sin issue to include all sins that the church, worldwide, has accepted and is ignoring. It is definitely a sign of the apostasy of the end times.”
    That’s precisely what I meant. Singling out homosexuality as if it was THE sin and we were Holy, Holy, Holy, is the height of hypocrisy. How many homophobics (yep, I believe the Biblical judgment of sin can turn into an unBiblical phobia) engage in pornography, cheat on their wives or husbands or at least watch a lot of Hellywood movies where those behaviors and the constant blasphemy of using Jesus as a curse word are glorified? Let’s get real!

    Calling a spade a spade is great and very necessary. Bible-thumping, self-righteous name calling is against the Spirit of Jesus who received sinners and THROUGH HIS AMAZING LOVE AND MERCY brought them to repentance. Sometimes He didn’t even need to tell them to stop sinning! His very lifestyle spoke volumes of true holiness! He was meek and humble, not holier than thou.
    The only people He was harsh and rude against were the religious guys who thought they had God all figured out and were the owners of truth! Let’s guard our hearts against either extreme. Legalism is just as deadly as licentiousness. Romans 6 is a great chapter, and the whole book is an indictment of our way of doing church.

    And regarding your Revelation verse and question, I’m waiting for clear instructions on it. I attend a church that has been greatly pruned, from 400 members to a mere 50 or less. A lot of bad doctrine came, I ended up leaving because of it. After our pastor was restored and stopped teaching nonsense and things got more Biblical, we returned. BUT I have to say I no longer consider myself a church MEMBER. I have only one pastor/shepherd. That’s Jesus. I’m there more to give of what the Lord tells me to share with them (there are lots of precious brothers and sisters who are open to instruction and leading from the Lord) than to receive any actual anointing.
    Church, for me, is two or three gathered in His name. Church is coming to this website and sharing what each of us knows. (And in a sense, each of us is correct, and in a sense, each of us is wrong! And we need each other for proper alignment to what the Holy Spirit is teaching us.) Church is sharing eternal truths on Facebook or Twitter and getting some good responses. Church is reading a devotional and discovering, to our amazement, that the passages a brother received and the interpretation he got are EXACTLY the same as what we received, totally independently from him, but not from the Holy Spirit.
    And Church is being ALONE in our inner chamber, praying in the Spirit (which does NOT necessarily mean tongues). Praying in the manner He wants, with the thoughts He wants to express through our limited minds and hearts. Because when its ME & the Holy Spirit, that already makes 2… So the presence of Christ is among us.
    I cannot answer your question, Should I stay or should I go? There are reasons pointing in each direction. Surely, when the leaven has advanced too much, and the pastors and leaders don’t accept any correction, and you leave and can’t find a Bible-based church anywhere near and can’t move farther from your home, it’s time to start your own home study group with one or two spiritual people you know. (If you know anybody! If not, may be it’s better to stay at home until the Lord tells you where to go!) That’s my humble opinion.

    By Helena Lehman

    All sin, no matter how great or small, is rebellion against our Father God, and it is disgusting to Him. But sexual sin seems the easiest to excuse in our society today, from sex out of wedlock, to living together without marriage, to engaging in extramarital affairs, to having multiple sex partners. In fact, there are very few Christians that look one iota different than their unsaved counterparts in the world today sexually or otherwise.

    Even those of us who claim to have died to the world to follow Christ can and do sin everyday – myself included! In fact, many of us are so accustomed to sinning that we often miss the little white lies, tiny indiscretions and lustful or covetous thoughts that we all frequently engage in. But the committed believer knows what the Bible says, and it says that – without repentance before God and the congregation as we confess our sins to one another IN SHAME – there is no forgiveness, and without our forgiveness of others sins, God will not forgive us!

    Therefore, it follows that only the HUMBLE sinner that knows that he or she needs to go to the foot of the Cross everyday and asks God the Father for forgiveness, who sees the sins of others and forgives them, but calls them to the same repentance, who asks the Spirit of God to help them to change, and who does gradually change for the better will be welcome into Heaven on Rapture day! Remember that all believers are called to reflect Christ’s character, and He was perfectly sinless!

    Though it may be an inconvenient truth, God hates a PROUD sinner, and unfortunately there are many proud sinners in the Homosexual community that are demanding acceptance of their sins without seeking repentance, or wanting to change. By the same token, many congregations seem to have completely accepted and turned a blind eye to all the young people in their midst who live together and have sex outside of marriage – as if there was nothing wrong with it!

    In truth, sexual fornication in all its forms, including homosexuality – should be loudly and repeatedly condemned in every congregation that claims to follow Christ! Calls to repentance should be heard from every good Church pulpit every Sabbath, and if this isn’t the case, the Bible also makes it clear that these unrepentant congregation and their worthless pastors are in jeopardy of being excluded from the Kingdom of God!

  91. Just an observation. In the Gospels we are told that Jesus healed and ministered all who came to him. I wonder how many were homosexual, lesbians, or even pedophiles? I am sure He knew of their sins He never denied anyone, but that does not mean He accepted or approved of their lifestyle or action.

    What God has said is sin, is still sin today! Just because they are receiving “approval” from a ministry or church to continue to live in that lifestyle does not override God. God does not have level of salvation for one, and a different level/degree of salvation for another. SIN is SIN.

  92. L. Alex Smith Feb 27th 2013

    “Blessed are ye that Mourn, for ye shall be comforted”. Matt. 5:4
    –Jesus. Not mourning for personal loss, but mourning for your sins and for the sins of others.
    “…Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double-minded (wavering between the World and God): be afflicted and MOURN and WEEP (command imperative); let your laughter be turned to Mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and HE shall lift you up.” James 4:8b-10 [James the half-brother of Jesus].
    “It is reported commonly, that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much named among the Gentiles– that one should have his father’s wife (his step-mother). And ye are puffed up, and have not rather MOURNED, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body but present in spirit, haved judged already as though I were present, him that hath so done this deed: IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, when you are gathered together, and my spirit with the Power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the Day Of The Lord Jesus. ” –Paul.
    Strong words! Powerful message!
    But borne out of a heart of mourning for sin. Not condemnation, but grief. Where are the Jeremiahs that cry out, “My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart…” (4:19) “O that my head were waters and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night…”(9:1) God is calling us to judge the church, IN HIS JUDGEMENT– but first we must possess that heart! In Revelation 6 the Four Horsemen of the Apolcalypse are called forth by the Four Living Creatures– who represent four different ministries of Christians operating in the Heavenlies (Eph. 2:6).
    This has to be predicated by having the heart of the Lord. He is loving, He if Holy, He is Just, and His Judgements are true and righteous altogether– yea, more to be desired are they than gold, yea, much fine gold. (Psalm 19). To understand His judgements, one must first enter into His Presence of His Holiness…receive Grace by which to stand…yield to YHWH’s white-hot Flame to burn out any dross (slag metal or alloy), to THEN turn and manifest His “goodness and severity”. We can only give out what we have received. It must be done, but who will seek the Lord to that extent?

  93. GLBT people should be just as welcome as adulterers, drug addicts, pedophiles, alcoholics, sex workers, assorted criminals, tax collectors, etc, The standard is walking as Jesus walked. The church needs to come along side and teach “The Way” to live. We cannot do that if we flatly refuse to love unconditionally. Do I condone sin? God forbid! Do I love the sinner and invite them in? By all means!
    I met a woman who has a “church” inside a brothel populated by sex slaves in Asia. One of the inmates is the pastor. The church at large has to see that God is working where His people lack vision and unconditional love.
    Could we view this controversial circumstance as a wake up call for who we truly need to be to the world? We the Church should figure this out and soon!

  94. I think it is being taken that because this Pastor has allowed gays to come into his Church we are taking it that he is approving of a gay life-style. Is he? If he is – that is what he should be judged on being absolutely wrong. Or soft on any sin. If he is not we should pray the Holy Spirit would convict him and he will turn from his own sin of being soft on sin.

    But is he allowing them to come in and hear the Word of God and being prayed for and brought to Jesus and like any other sin, being delivered and set free.

    Let’s pray that it is the latter. That He has God’s heart and is revealing sin to be repented of and people are truly coming to Jesus, delivered, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit. Amen

  95. Another point that I did not put in my last post, Jesus DID NOT establish a Church. Jesus laid the foundation for it and it was birthed after He return to heaven. What I feel is being either overlooked or willfully ignored is a scriptural foundation for the New Testament Churches – THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST.

    Today I have found very few “ministers” who can tell me the specific elements of His doctrine or where it is written out in Scripture. Some, when challenged with it say it is not for today, denying even what He taught His disciples. Their arrogance makes me sick to my stomach. Personally I would not want to be standing with them at the judgement seat of Christ.

  96. Angel Beast Feb 27th 2013

    There is a difference between accepting homosexuals and homosexuality. One is a must and the other is a must not. It is similar to saying one must accept the adulterer but not the adultery.

  97. Robert Marino Feb 27th 2013

    One stated, To make out that God is indifferent to sin, as many today are saying, simply because he nailed its requirements to the cross, is a lie from the pit of hell. Did Christ have to suffer so much for something God is casual about. Christians need to read the word of God.

    How true.

    Where are these ministers getting their theology? My Savior Jesus sweat GREAT DROPS of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. Do you men get that? Great Drops of blood. He even asked the Father to take the cup from Him – three times I tell you –BUT NOT MY WILL YOUR WILL he said. Christ did not really want to go through with this people. You try taking the sin of the whole world upon you? I can’t fathom it in the slightest bit. And we have belittled sin to the point that we call it MISTAKES, and we can put faith in Christ and then hold onto our sin with our dear lives.

    I say welcome every sinner into the church and preach an unadulterated message of how much God hates sin including fornication, lying, idolatry, etc. but will forgive in a second for the “whosoever will” call upon His name when they come to Him with a repentant heart.

    The Creator of the Universe is more than able to clean a sinner up (including a homosexual) if they turn from their sin in their hearts just like He will clean up a fornicator, thief, and idolator. God sanctifies the sinner not the sanctified. But we have to come to Him on His terms and not our own. Jesus said “REPENT AND BELIEVE.” Does anyone see the word AND in there or is it just me and a few others? I’m not trying to add to salvation but if we can remain in our sins after conversion that just doesn’t make common sense to me. Correct me if I am wrong in my theology but I don’t think God gave us His word and only a select few that had 20 years of Bible training can interpret it.

    anyone can email me if they like at [email protected].

    God Bless,

  98. I used to go to church while living in sin with my boyfriend. I asked a pastor about it, my conscience being constantly pricked. He told me the truth, in a loving way, with such compassion on his face. He said- basically- I know it’s hard…but you can do it. I wasn’t born again at that time…and after that wonderful experience- again God sent someone to warn…don’t go back to your old lifestyle. I knew that was God and that I could not serve him, or even call myself a Christian, unless I was willing to lay down everything for Jesus…including sex outside marriage. It was not easy- but God gave me strength- honestly- I literally could not have done that on my own – I was shaking when I told the bf – we can’t do this anymore…

    Fast forward about 10 years….I have learned the wonderful ministry of deliverance and received much freedom. If only hurting people knew…homosexuality, perversion, lust….these are demon spirits….they can be imparted through molestation or generationally. It is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE but Jesus Christ -ALONE- has won this battle at the cross. HE LOVES YOU and wants to set you free….the Word of God says this very very clearly. He also wants to heal the heart wounds….rejection, set people free from gender confusion, and completely restore what the enemy has stolen from you.

    The holiness God demands, is impossible for every human being on the earth…that is why Jesus Christ had to die on the cross. And the true Gospel message is not only your will to obey- but His power to set you free.

    It is a LIE that you will never change.
    Even if you were born with this in you, God can heal and restore you in the perfect manner of godly manhood and godly womanhood.

    There is no confusion in Jesus Christ.

    If you seek God with all your heart, He will set you free!! A church that affirms something less than God’s perfect design and plan is selling you a sweet tasting lie.

    You can not do this in your own strength…this is a powerful enemy- but Jesus has given His life…to set you free. That is the truth!!

    The true Gospel sets people free to live without compulsion/ties/bondage to sin.

    I have had a lot of perverse spirits cast out of me….I can see and feel the difference. IT IS DRAMATIC- and God will do the same for you. Deliverance (casting out of spiritual enemies) is the children’s bread.

    Gay friend, watch Derek Prince or Milt Green videos…Win Worley…You are going to need to deal with “rejection” and need to be filled up with God’s love. It is an intense battle but people have been set free. Testimonies do exist. The enemy will tell you ” these people are hypocrites” but don’t listen.

    BUT for any church, pastor, religion to say, “we are born like this” “we must remain like this til our dying day” does not believe or know the power of God and the Word of God.

  99. kim gilbert Feb 27th 2013

    If he is right…God owes Ananias & Sophira a big apology.

  100. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    The entire issue is about “accepting” vs. “calling sin SIN”.

    And yes – there ARE sins according to the Bible that are worse than others.

    Not to say that we don’t reach out in a caring way to such people.

    But SIN must still be called SIN.

    Bless you,

    Andrew Strom.

  101. chas351 Feb 27th 2013

    love people hate sin seek Holiness to see the Lord Yeshua and be Saved.

  102. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    “When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place…”

  103. Richard Savage Feb 27th 2013

    In the almost year I’ve been posting on this forum one aspect of Christianity has stood so tall above all others:

    The lack cohesion among Christians which seems to be derived from a deficit of even a basic agreement in the interpretation of the Bible, entering into the mind of God. Disagreement as to how we should live and respond to our fellow man in all his many and various conditions.

    Now, given we were given the right of private interpretation at the Reformation, I’m continually amazed how little agreement there is between even the few who regularly post on JBTV/RS. This clearly has a marked effect.

    The opposition is solid, massive, without cleave, unremitting and coming full on in strength and we … we don’t actually know how to respond. We don’t know what to say. We don’t have the common ground upon which to make a stand. Are we still looking to our leaders for an answer? Hope not! So why no concerted reply to the advance of evil in our ranks?

    I cannot believe so many are lead of the Holy Spirit in so many different directions. This is confusion, and our God is not a God of confusion. We hurl proof texts at one another to make our point. Our point? Surely it’s the mind of God we should be gently laying before each other in humility, knowing this is the mind of God, not finite man.

    This matter before us today is difficult, far reaching and the ramifications of a bad word, or a wrong attitude, could mean someone in hell for an eternity. It’s that serious, folks.

    So, if we’re lead of the Holy Spirit, where is the common reply to the issue at hand?

    If I were gay, and met individually each poster on here tonight – there are 100 of us – I would get 100 different answers. Did Jesus give 100 options when questioned.

    Then why do we?

  104. Kenny Atnip Feb 27th 2013

    wheat and tares….

  105. WOW. A lot of valuable things have been said here.
    I resonate with what L. Alex Smith has expressed. You know, I may have mentioned some of the same passages in my posts. These are passages I’m quoting all the time because these are truths the Lord has been engraving in my heart.
    A couple of days ago, He told me, in no unclear terms, that if I want to be as useful as He wants me to be, I have to quit running from pain and embrace it. He told me He wants me to be a powerful intercessor, and for that I need to accept the cup He wants me to drink.
    He gave me a lot of examples (to clarify, no audible voice, just a very clear impression on my mind and heart, some passages which came to mind with a force that overpowered and overwhelmed me) of what He wanted to do in me. The lives of Jeremiah and Ezekiel came to mind.
    He told me to WEEP for the incurable wound of His people. He told me He was not sending me primarily to preach for the lost in the world, but to the unregenerate or confused WITHIN THE CHURCH. He told me my main role going forward is INTERCESSION, and all the other functions I can have will get their source from that.
    I am nothing, Alex! Grace is everything, and our God is an awesome God.

    Have I quoted Isaiah 62? God wants more people willing to do this:
    1 For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace,
    And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
    Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
    And her salvation as a lamp that burns.
    6 I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem;
    They shall never hold their peace day or night.
    You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent,
    7 And give Him no rest till He establishes
    And till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

    Is there any other Jeremiah willing to take the challenge to weep for the sins of our supposedly holy nation? (I don’t mean the US, I mean the church nation!)

  106. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    In my view, this is as serious as it gets in the church.

    It is because they are being “accepted” and given place in the midst of the church – that is why it is so serious.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  107. If my understanding of Scripture is correct….the chiurch meeting is primarially a believers meeting…though a unbeliever may come to the meeting, be convicted of his sin and be converted…the gathering of the saints is for believers. Evangelism should be done where unbelievers are (Opps…here in America you can find many unbelievers in church) but for True believers…I believe the meetings are for them. One cannot remain unregenerated and be a true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ…Has the church lost sight of sanctification?

  108. Where does all the “understanding” of homosexuals come from? Yes they are sinners, just like drunkards and idolaters and adulterers etc… BUT…homosexuality is not a “problem”…its not a psychological “weakness”…its not a “personal issue”…it is S-I-N!
    There were some Outdoor-Evangelists I saw some photos from, and on them they had signs, which said:

    “It´s not homosexuality, its SIN!”

    We´ve drifted way too much into humanism…poor church…

  109. Mickeal Feb 27th 2013

    The “Just As I Am” movement has caused love to become greater than Holiness… and this is simply untrue. I have heard sermons saying, “come to Jesus just as you are”. Songs on the radio saying God loves me “Just the way I am”. But, this is only “half theology”.

    God loves us so much that “while we were yet sinners Christ Jesus died for us”, YES God loves us that much, but…”What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:1-2).

    God loved us enough to die for us atoning our sins, BUT, He is so HOLY that if we do not turn from them He will send us to Hell because of them. We can say that “God is love” and quote the scripture (1 John. 4:8), and that is true…. But, the thing that defines God more than anything else is His HOLINESS.

    The angels and elders and 4 living creatures don’t constantly sing and worship around God’s throne saying “love, love, love”. No, they cry “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY”.

    We have made a theology of comfort, and not of the reality of our God

  110. I see nothing wrong with accepting and teaching them if they are saved and have repented and no longer engaging in that life style. I would not let them teach until they learn and began to grow in purity.

  111. We have ignored clear scriptures on divorce and remarriage for years, so what would we expect.? That being said, there is till a right and wrong way to deal with this current issue…..

    There is a vast difference between loving the person who practices homosexuality and accepting them as loved by God and embracing them as brothers and/or sisters in Christ. It is like any other sin however. When people want to come into our assemblies, and they are effeminate looking or acting or cross dressing or whatever, then we need to love them as they are. Even if they attend for a long time, that should not change. IF however they begin to call themselves *Christians*, then a different set of values kicks in. Even at that, we need to give people a bit of time as God deals with them over their sin and issues. I have friends who were dramatically saved in the Jesus movement who continued to live together for some months after their salvation. God dealt with them and they obeyed Him. It should be no different for the homosexual. In 1 Cor. 5, it says, if anyone calls himself a brother and does certain things, we are not to keep company with or even eat with that one….it gives a list of issues one being sexual immorality. Calling yourself a brother, and simply attending a group as a seeker are two different things.

  112. Jesus made it quite clear who does not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. Those with lust in their hearts are considered adulterers, so I’m sure that means nobody is righteous enough. We need to love our neighbors and be humble knowing that if it were not for God’s grace we would not be going to heaven either. Repentence is not something that happens over night. How do we know the cause? it could be the person was abused or something. We look at the outward appearance and God sees the heart. God knows the roots we know not of. He came to set people free. “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB). “

  113. I’m curious. For those that feel it is OK to have openly homosexual couples in a church,. Do you also think it is OK for them to be openly affectionate in front of the impressionable young people in that church as happens frequently now in many “churches”?

  114. Bless you all…

    Can we consider the letters in Revelation to the Churches.

    Jesus commends Ephesus for not enduring evil men in the church. (2:2)

    Jesus judged Pergamum for having in the church those who committed acts of immorality. (2:14)

    Jesus judged Thyatira for tolerating Jezabel who promoted immorality. (2:20)

    Friends there is a vast difference between being in fellowship with those who continue in sin (unacceptable to Jesus) and being a friend to sinners (acceptable to Jesus)

    The problem that we have is that the “church” in Melbourne does not operate biblically in many respects and if the Spirit of Jesus was to speak to them as it did to the Churches in Revelation we would hear a frightening judgement.

    Just to say that I have enjoyed years of evangelising among ‘street people’ and befriended many unbelievers including homosexuals.

    Jesus is a friend of sinners and so should we be…

    But only those who Jesus has transformed through repentance can enter into biblical church fellowship.

    The problem we have is that biblical church fellowship is very rare in these modern times.

    The fear of Him was with them in the beginning and the unsaved dared not enter. (Acts 5:13)

    Yet many presume to speak with His voice claiming to speak for Him, claiming that He now tolerates immorality in the church.

    As He never contradicts Himself I can only conclude they are in serious error.

    Friends, keep loving the sinner, but fellowship with the saved – fellowship with the moral.


    Carl Emerson.

  115. David Marsh Feb 27th 2013

    Basically, it was a traditional wedding scene. The radiantly beautiful Bride had just stepped out of the Cathedral and was standing on the top step, just outside. My friend was told that the Bride was LEAVING `CHRISTENDOM’ (AND ALL THAT GOES WITH IT) FOREVER, leaving the `church’ system behind. The Groom (who was Jesus) took her arm, so that He could lead her down and proudly display His beautiful Bride to all the world.

    Still inside the Cathedral were all the relatives (these were the various `streams’ and denominations of the church as we know it). Suddenly, while the Bride was still on the top step, an invisible hand gave her a beautiful lily (which had been plucked out by the roots). This was her bridal `bouquet’ (her new anointing, perhaps?) and for some reason it seemed to be given to her rather late. She threw this bouquet backwards, and some of her relatives in the church, who had been watching her with great jealousy and awe, made a grab for the bouquet. Two of them seemed to snatch it up. The Groom then led the Bride down the steps and through the huge crowd of cheering people down below, who had been unable to get into the Cathedral.

    Andrew, this vision that you shared with us – from your book ‘The Coming Great Reformation’ – resonates with many other prophecies that God is separating the true faithful from the goats. It grieves me to see my brothers and sisters do these things. They need to be warned. They need to be warned.

    God bless
    David Marsh.

  116. 1 John 1:8 NKJV
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    Read 1 John 1 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
    1 John 2:1 NKJV
    My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
    Read 1 John 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
    1 John 3:6 NKJV
    Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
    Read 1 John 3 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
    1 John 3:9 NKJV
    Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
    Read 1 John 3 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
    1 John 5:16 NKJV
    If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

  117. Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
    Pride and arrogance and the evil way
    And the perverse mouth I hate.

    Proverbs 8:32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
    For blessed are those who keep my ways.
    33 Hear instruction and be wise,
    And do not disdain it.
    34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
    Watching daily at my gates,
    Waiting at the posts of my doors.

  118. I heartily agree !!! I was a divorced woman (the unforgiveable sin i am sure!) and was socially marginalised My husband the adulterer with many prositutes and domestic violence abuser was welcomed – I was ostracised. He was a man I was labeled the rebellious wife. He was the unbeliever I was the believer. I have remained celebate for 20 + years he has gone from woman to woman.

    Since when does it occurr that when you give your life to Christ at Salvation do you get rid of ALL of your sin. Most teachers today don’t even teach Baptism correctly so most people struggle in their Christian walk but want to ostracise the very people that they “minister to ”
    I don’t have a problem with keeping anyone out of a teaching position and leadership who is in any kind of sexual sin- note ANY KIND ! we are to flee sexual immorality so why are adulterers and marriage hoppers (serial monogamy)
    The day the full gospel is taught and practiced and not the salvation only which the Pentecostals are guilty of will be when we are known by the love we have for one another. yes teach people sin no more and when they want to observe that have then worshipping right next to the former adulterers etc you and I and others but discipline in the church is for everyone to be aware of in the church and not in a rejecting manner by people with a critical spirit.
    I used to work with gay men as a HIV Aids counsellor so heard of much heartbreak that “loving christians ” had wounded. These are wounded people (either genetic predisposition or have been nurtured) these are the very people the gospel is FOR ! Lets grow up !

  119. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    How interesting that some here would say that Paul did not love this person.
    What about all the others in the congregation? Do we reject them claiming to love the blatant sinner?

  120. Baldrick Feb 27th 2013

    I think the problem is more around societal thinking today that homosexuality is a completely normal lifestyle, and as such I shouldn’t have to change or be changed.

    Our problem, as born-again Christians, is that we know that scriptually peaking this is patently untrue. So, when this sort of acceptance preaching comes into our holy sanctuary – our place of refuge & worship – we retaliate. It’s almost an “how dare they!!”

    The second part to this problem is our “give then an inch, they’ll take a mile” thinking, once the gay community are involved in church life, along with “what if they don’t repent”.

    I think our motivation should be to let them in, love and accept them, but on scriptually-bound conditions. They should understand that they, like the rest of us, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If they can’t accept this, like anyone else who chooses not to repent of their sin, then let God deal with them.

  121. Kenny Atnip Feb 27th 2013

    Repentance is the first step.

  122. Matt. 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

    ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
    And seeing you will see and not perceive;

    Many cannot “see or hear” what the Bible is saying is the real issue.

    They think they see and they think they hear, so they are following the new accept all gospel.

    2 Timothy 4:2-4

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

  123. Darren Sargent Feb 27th 2013

    How can it be that a person enters a church and is not convicted of his sin because of the holiness of the worship and that they see God is among the people? The fact that this homosexual wedge can enter a church and remain quite happily without squirming under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is testament enough of our compromised do-gooding bleeding-heart humanitarian love-not-holiness well-meaning gospel.

    If we are not in fear and trembling as we worship, how can we expect anyone else to? If there is no conviction of the Spirit then there is no Spirit that affirms that gathering.

  124. Sandra G. Feb 27th 2013

    I agree with Andrew on this, this is as serious as it gets. As I stated earlier, I am not a hater, I don’t say to not love homosexuals, that would be an unchristian act, sure we love them, but that doesn’t mean we must accept their choice, it is our duty to tell them that what they are doing is wrong, and an abomination in God’s eyes. Someone said that Jesus went around healing all sorts of sickness, yes He did, but did He refuse to heal them, probably not, scripture doesn’t reveal this, as far as I know, but did He maybe tell them to repent, and sin no more, probably. Do I say that we need to be like the Westboro Baptist Church, (God forbid), this group does not show the love of God. There is a cleshe’ that goes like this “God created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve”, and that is not meant to offend anyone. This is wrong, I wont condemn, not my job, neither is it my job to judge, but there is a book written that says it is an abomination to God, and it’s called the “Holy Word” the “Bible”. Homosexuality is a sin, there is no other name to give it, I will never accept this act, but will I accept a homosexual person with the arms of love, you bet, if they repent, will I deny them food, or drink, if they are in need, of course not, but will I let them know that they will be condemned by God on judgement day, if they continue in their ways, you betcha. Time is short, the coming of our Lord draws nigh, them time for powder puff gospel is slowly coming to an end, we need to be bold, and not be ashamed of the Word of God, nor do we need to fear what man can do.

    In HIS love & grace,
    Sandra G.

  125. It’s always interesting how pastors claim authority for the absolute meaning behind the scriptures. Pastor Rob clearly calls “righteous Lot” disgusting, and limits God’s condemnation to the single act against Lot and his angelic guests.

    But then again, condemnation is also wrong. “We plant and God gives the increase”. All we can do is put the “word” out there and leave it to God to touch the heart. So total avoidance is also wrong.

    Why not just treat it as it appears to be … a demonic spirit that can be cast out. I really think that the majority of GLBT folks would rather be straight … we (the church) just don’t have the love and compassion to produce the healing power.

  126. Richard Savage Feb 27th 2013

    Still so many disparate opinions, and so many minds of God.

    Surely, there is one mind of God.

    Who among us is truly lead of the Holy Spirit? Or perhaps, who says what they think?

  127. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Richard Savage…
    Good question, but do you have the answer?

  128. I would welcome a “gay” into our assembly meeting, How else would they have a chance to see how the Lord works amongst His elect.
    Should they accept our invitation we would not single that person out with “special scriptures” to preach at them.
    He or she would be offered the same as any other newcomer to our meetings,. repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost – as on the day of Pentecost.(there is no other Gospel.that can save them)
    At the meeting they would have the opportunity to hear testimony from several folk who had been delivered from sin, sickness et al. re
    They would hear happy songs of praise. a talk from scripture, they would also hear tongues/interpretation/prophecy as laid out in Corinthians, they would see folk being prayed for and themselves have the opportunity to participate..

    The Church meeting is not just to edify the elect, it is a place where outsiders can come, see, experience and hopefully receive the “Power of God for salvation” in action.

    “I’m no longer thirsting for the things of the world they have taken wings” should then be their triumphant acclaim!
    Homosexuals are no less deserving of this that any other creature of God. Thus we deal with His requirement of us, it is the answer of God to all sin.
    Pr Michael

  129. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    Amen, Michael. But that is very different to what the “acceptance” crowd is doing.

    Bless you!


  130. DonaldN Feb 27th 2013

    Pr Michael…
    That is very loving, but I must ask what you would do if another gay person came into your group, met the first gay and began a relationship, denying that they were doing wrong, still expecting to be accepted and unwilling to change?

  131. Marilyn Crow Feb 27th 2013

    I appreciate the many testimonies of what God has done in their lives.
    The different answers in the comments is that we read the article from different perspectives. However I hear the bottom line of `love the sinner & hate the sin.`

    My contribution is that the Religious organisations are now so connected to the world`s system that they are showing their true master.
    `Do you not know that friendship (partnership) with the world system is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world`s system makes himself an enemy of God.`
    James 4: 4

    And as others have said, Let`s address our own heart towards others. Marilyn.

  132. Yes Andrew, we are correct to strongly rebuke that crowd.
    Pr Michael

  133. Marilyn Crow Feb 27th 2013

    To run a Religious organisation today the governing body/person has to have a business number. (partnership) And the world system requires them to adhere to the world`s value code.

    Where people are getting muddled is the recognition of this & still believing these religious organisations are the `called out ones.`

  134. Sandra G. Feb 27th 2013

    Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
    Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    (What was once delivered is still good for us, there is nothing new under the sun)
    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this comdemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    (What does this mean?)
    I will therefore put you in rememberance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    (What! God destroyed?)
    And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    (God didn’t spare the angels)
    Even Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    (What does strange flesh mean?, What is their end?)
    Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    (filthy, defiling the flesh)
    Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    (So, no railing, but do we rebuke?)
    But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beast, in those things they corrupt themselves.
    (brute beast, self condemnation)
    Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
    (When God says WOE, HE means WOE)
    These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
    (plucked up by the roots)
    Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
    (how long)
    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with then thousands of his saints.
    (We have been warned, the Lord is coming, and what will HE do?)
    To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
    These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lust; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
    (Is this about convenience?)
    But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
    How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
    (What time? the last time)
    These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the spirit.
    But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.
    Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
    (so, do we have compassion, yep!, do we put the fear of God in them? yep, do we hate the garment spotted by the flesh? yep)
    Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    (Who is the only one that can do this?)
    To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    May all be blessed,
    In HIS love & grace
    Sandra G.

  135. Carolyn V Feb 28th 2013

    Last night I happened to watch the biblical story of King David. After reading this message regarding Pentecostals Accept Gays, all I can think of now is how King Saul disobeyed God and His commandments and his ultimate demise by his own sword! God will have the final say on this and other churches who condone and accept what is an abomination to the Lord. Leviticus 18 and God’s wrath on unrighteousness – Rom.1:24-32.

  136. DonaldN
    there are aspects to this.
    First. i would be disappointed if any one in our group having received the Holy Spirit and delivered from past sins would even think of having a relationship with such a person. Sadly Christians can, and do go of the rails not all will recover. The NT makes this clear, and some have posted on this above.
    Second, the continued presence of an unsaved, unrepentant, continually sinning person in our group becomes increasingly difficult for them, they either follow Jesus or leave. This has been my experience over 48 years as a pastor.
    Thirdly, occasionally we may have to invite someone to not return until their thinking changes, we encourage them to do so and keep them in our thoughts and prayers,in some cases we can maintain contact till a change occurs . Sometimes, thank God, this works for them.

    Pr Michael

  137. Christian journalist Feb 28th 2013

    I agree with what Ian Poulter has shared regarding the way which churches are going in dealing with homosexuality resulting later in the acceptance of homosexuals and lesbians in leadership.
    Who dare says that such ways will not be judged by Almighty God as we live under His grace? For immorality is immorality how much people dress this up to be something else because political correctness says so!
    The church is in turmoil and disarray due its spiritual decadence and this is going to get worse whatever people like to cover up and explain it away.
    Without salvation coming by REPENTANCE, nothing can be hidden from Father God and there are no short cuts to the Kingdom of God either.
    I would dare to say that as well as living in the Days of Noah, we are living the Days of Sodom and Gomorrah. There were people who mocked and laughed at Noah and his family. The same was with Lot and his family too.
    With what brother Andrew has said in his article, is this not another sign of the times and gives a warning where churches are going.
    The so called christian Greenbelt Festival for 2013 has a main speaker called Peter Tatchell who is a well know homosexual and promotes the lifestyle.
    See this link
    Young christians will be going and will be influenced by him and the event.
    Even well known bishops of the Church of England are giving their support for the same sex marriages to be conducted in church.
    See this link
    Christian and churches are being duped all over the place.
    Notice the absence of REPENTANCE!
    What is being sown they will so reap. The consequences in mocking Almighty God and His Word is horrendous!

  138. Graham P Feb 28th 2013

    Having looked at the two links provided by christian journalist it appears that the church is going downhill fast what ever it is dressed up to be and should be.
    Young people are being targeted by fads to be part of and to follow. Surely believers can see the wood from the trees and give warning. For very few ministers or whatever they call themselves are doing so.
    We have seen false signs and wonders in our midst. False teachers and prophets rampage with the church system. Wolves masqerading as sheep are devouring those who come into contact with them.
    And now homosexuality is on the agenda and waiting to be rubber stamped in acceptance.
    When the Word of God warns about ungodly practices, don’t be deceived by those who are saying that God is doing something new, He is modernising the church for the 21st century, and He does not mind what we do as christians where anything now goes in His sight.
    Do we take heed, be warned and act upon His instructions, or play ignorance and make excuses that what will be will be.
    If so, how foolish!

  139. antipas4yahshua Feb 28th 2013

    Paul judged and recommended the man who married his fathers wife be removed from the congregation.
    So much for “accepting”.
    There is no social study that shows homosexual lifestyle is sound for relationships or upbringing of children (in fact, quite the opposite).
    There is no empirical study to show a “homosexual gene”
    Both of these cannot be denied.

    Any union outside of hetrosexual marriage of man/women has no science and no scripture to support a favorable outcome.
    This cannot be denied.

    Allow me suggest, – show the social studies, medical studies, and scientific studies – they all support scripture union of man/woman family.

    This is nothing more than a attempt to maintain a “tax free” status, avoid coming persecution, save the “denomination”.
    Imo, it corrupt and beyond repair – stand back and avoid the bomb blast when cause and effect take place (G_Ds natural order of reaping/sowing take place).


  140. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    One thing that distresses me is that AUSTRALIA seems to be leading in this among Pentecostal groups.

    Very sad.

    Bless you!


  141. Matthew 3:1-6

    “In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’” Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

    This is what happens when God sends an anointed messenger full of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the kingdom of God and prepare the way for Jesus! Sinners repent and confess their sins!

    John 16:7-11

    “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.”

    It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment, if sinners are not being convicted of their sin in the presence of one who claims to be sent by God there is a problem! Either the Spirit is quenched or the hearts of the sinners are so hard that they are able to resist the Spirit.

  142. Because someone goes to church, does not make them a christian. The real church, the bride fo Christ is hidden within the church system. The days are coming when the Lord will remove her from the harlot church and call her to Himself. I believe the outgoing pope was removed to make way for the new order and soon even the catholic church will agree to what the world dictates. What many do not know is the condoned abuse was allowed as the foundations of the worlds system and even the so called church has its foundations in the masonic rituals and initiations who at their high levels practice sodomy and all manner of uncleanness as part of their bondage to Satan. When we have high level, world government leaders meeting once a year at the Bilderberg Conference to give worship to Satan in the form of witchcraft and all manner of abominations take place, the unclean spirits clap their hands in glee. After all, Satan too reproduces after his own kind just as God commanded Adam and Eve. The protection of our young and the restoration of a persons soul are the only prayers we can pray. There is no point us becoming burdened by these things. The Lord has prohesied in His word, these things will take place. Do not waste your prayer on what God has foreseen will happen, they are meant to be.These things must take place before the great and terrible Day of the Lord. HE WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY.

  143. Jda016 Feb 28th 2013

    As someone who has struggled with Same Sex Attraction my whole life, I have to say it comes down to choice. Understand me though when I say that it was never my choice to feel the way I do. I have no control over those FEELINGS and neither does anyone who is gay.

    However, I believe the whole point of carrying the cross is making the right choice despite what you feel. This is the living sacrifice we make unto God. I choose Him because I love Him and I deny my flesh because I want him more than my own will.

    This comes to all things. We either love God more or we love self more. It is that simple.

    Understand though that there needs to be a greater compassion in people for those who struggle with this. A compassion to listen and a compassion to pray for them. A compassion that doesnt allow them to stay as they are, but offers up intercession to see them set free.

  144. Andrew must be desperare for someting to write about
    Millions are going to a Christless eternity
    Islam is marching ominously and boldly in the Western World
    The Church is losing 70% of it’s young people before they enter uni
    Yet Andrew is arcing up with quantum-leap presumptions that is dividing the very source that is the solution. I know Pastor Rob Buckingham very well and he does not advocate a non-Biblical approach – but a Christ-like approach to Gays. “Let him that is without sin cast the first stone”!

  145. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    Why did he clearly state then, sir, that he “accepts gays just as they are”? And why did the Homosexual activists so rejoice when they heard everything he has to say?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  146. Hi Andrew. I was sent your blog today so thought I would make a public comment. Don’t we, as Christians, accept ALL people as they are? Doesn’t Jesus do this? Isn’t accepting ALL people and giving ALL people the chance to hear and respond to the Gospel what God wants? Don’t we give grace to all people while the Holy Spirit does His work in them – whatever that work may be and however long it takes? And, let me ask you some questions: Why didn’t you do the Biblical thing and approach me via email before going public with your criticisms? Why wouldn’t you do this instead of suggesting that people write to Phil Pringle? Why do you think it’s okay to spread gossip, and slander a brother in Christ? These two sins are in the same sin list as the one you probably use to condemn homosexuals (See Romans 1:29-30). Just a thought.

  147. miss bridgewater Feb 28th 2013

    by Andrew Strom What a title, like its gays in church is what is the worst thing that ever happened, now it begins? Well, I would be more inclined to say its spiritual fornication thats the major issue. The antichrist church began in Rome period, its occult. Who formed the Pentecostal movement? Rome did, via Jesuits, the occult. Who brought in ALL OCCULT and the demons who teach people the secrets of Satin, Pagan ROME, what seven churches came out of rome? The whore of Babylon, the harlot and her seven daughters. Who are these daughters? Churches. Who brought the occult and its demons into america to begin with, Penecostals think they were something new, No. All have been hoodwinked and who could fool the people over people, demons and those who play with them. So many brag about the great preachers of revival, this famous one, that famous one, nobody even considers them famous until their dead, why do so many look to the ones they call famous? There is only one, Jesus Christ of Nazareth alone, he wrote the only theology, so dont lean on the teaching and traditions of what you call a famous man and idolize them. Todays state of the church is just because of that. There has always been something sinister with the whole anti gay movement, its Satan himself behind it, to keep your eyes elsewhere and distracted while he did his real work IN SECRET and brought the occult in the church while most are pointing at others, and focused on their own self rightousness. The church itself it guilty of allowing itself to be turned secretly via the occult INTO THE WHORE OF BABYLON, mystery religion. It is a spirit, that flies from church to church to church and seduces and people call it down , bring the fire! Bring down the glory! Get into his presence! as if Gods real spirit needs to travel, yet they go by train, by plane, to conferences, to receive this new so called blessing, anointing. There is nothing worse then this sin that affects the flesh. Who are the ones who always have outer body experiences that take them to hell or heaven come back to write about it, and make a lot of money, Pentecostals, mystery religion. Who are the seekers of miracles signs and wonders? the same ones. Pentecostals are actually Roman Catholic church and it is the goddess spirit moving, flying from place to place performing great signs and wonders. The real holy spirit does not need to travel, he is indwelling by those who live by the law of the NT. The lawless one would be anyone who rejects this, rejects Jesus finished it. It’s hard for many to believe we would even look at the pope, the Vatican for anything, but they will, especially if he’s a pentecostal pope and do the spirit transfer, talk in tongues, the whole lot. He will be speaking in demonic tongues (unknown) as unknown tongues were proven to be a curse from god not a blessing, nobody needs to look any further then the fall of the FIRST BABYLON, he cursed them and confused the language. Pentecostals hate to believe that, reject truth also. Demons were brought in by them and spread it through the church here in the USA. Who has the most scandals, they do, who are shown to be hypocrites by God himself, as he said he would reveal, they are. Who has promoted the most hate toward gay people? They are.Who has led gays to commit suicide, you guest it, evangelical pentecostals. Who calls for assasinating foreign leaders? Pat Robertson. Who is promoting with NO discernment everything occult, CBN and the like. Well, Though Shalt not have any other God before me, yet almost all of these are talking to fallen angels, familiar spirits, thus said the lord, the lord is telling me this one is sick, that one is sick and make a ton of money off it. The great apostacy isnt gays in church, its EVERYONE taking on this spirit and being marked. Every sort of extra bible book, books of people have replaced the bible, the great falling away is falling away is allowing this other spirit to over take them and it is leading them away from truth, the plain old written word and the power behind it, for the power of the supernatural, exactly what the false prophet, beast, and devil himself will be doing, moving in the supernatural. There was a true day of Pentecost, the fig tree Jesus said KNOW discerning the times, and then the “other day of Pentecost” going on today, end times. I believe what is going on today is purely a trap. God will bring a world wide revival, but it wont be through any anointing given by men. The next one will be the refining of whats coming, trials and tribulation will certainly change the whole church of gentiles. Who brought the la la land story of the rapture and left behind series, who all yell peace and safety, we don’t have nothing to worry about, judgement wont come upon us! Pentecostals did. Dont trust anyone with dreams, visions, talking anything outside the word of God, the bible. OUR times is about up, its time for the Jews to be restored, they will be gifted. With the glbt community being so small, who in their right minds really believe they will take over the world when you have a pope getting ready to sit in the holy place, It’s scheduled for June, and get ready for the revival so many are waiting on, and I will avoid completely. I hope others will follow. Come out of her my people and dont take part of her plagues is MYSTERY BABYLON, religion itself.

  148. Bill Harper Feb 28th 2013

    Recently a preacher from Sinapore came to this little town in S.E. Arizona where I lived and started holding all-night prayer meetings on Friday nights. He didn’t have large turn-outs for these prayer meetings, but told those participating that the next revival was going to start here in Willcox AZ. He claimed that he mentored the pastors of the largest churches in Singapore. He left a couple of weeks ago to go home and to the Phillipine Islands but said he would be back here. I sent him an email mentioning that I was praying for the conversion of our Muslim president and he claimed so many Christians had bought a lie; because he heard Obama say on TV that he was a Christian by choice. I sent an email back to him telling him a true Christian does not promote sodomy and abortion like Obama does, and that I considered him the president as trying to cast a stumbling block before this nation as Balaam taught Balac to do to Israel. Needless to say that I never received a response from Huay (he uses the name
    Randy in this country) Huay. If he has mentored the pastors of the largest churches in Singapore, as he claims he has, and he (Huay Sing) can condone sodomy (it really isn’t gay and it shoud remind us of Sodom and what happened to it) and condones a president of the USA who condones both sodomy and abortion, it makes me wonder what kind of “churches” they have in Singapore.

  149. Richard the Lionheart – if the church is to have ANY impact in the world – it must be pure. Sexual purity is a big first step. If the church welcomes in what is widely regarded as sexual sin – why would God bless it??? And if God doesn’t bless the church, what chance does it have to do anything?

  150. jackrabbit Feb 28th 2013

    Love the sinner hate the sin. I don’t go to church because everyone is into the occult.

    The only gay victory I have ever heard of that costs them 10 percent of their pay checks.

  151. Several individuals have referenced Romans 1:18-32. I find this a very interesting passage.

    If you examine it, it is a description of God’s Judgment. When people’s hearts start moving away from God, first He gives them over to sexual impurity…
    anyone remember the SEXUAL REVOLUTION?

    Then if they don’t repent and acknowledge Him, then He gives them over to… HOMOSEXUALITY

    Then if they don’t repent, He gives them over to a DEBASED MIND and all froms of sin and uncleanness.

    It seems to me we are in the second stage right now. And I can notice an up-tick in the number of people who have debased minds. People who just don’t seem to have a grip on objective reality, who live in a fantansy world.

    Unless there is a radical change in the hearts of people, we will soon be seeing the complete implosion of our society and culture. Indeed, it has started already…

  152. miss bridgewater Feb 28th 2013

    The older bibles had the word pederasty in them, which was taken out of all the new bibles. The word means child molesters. They put the word homosexual in its place, I just wonder who really was behind that one. There is no bigger crime I see today then child molestation going on, and since the word pederasty has been taken out, where else do you see in the bible that mentions child molestation? I know of the one that says, cause a child to sin. but now where else? I cannot find this sin anywhere since it was taken out of the bible and replaced with homo. I have not met a gay person who loves Jesus and grace who has done this, only works based, religions. Catholics, Muslims, Mormons and the like, even reg. christian churches. I am not promoting any gay gospel either, this is why I rely on the oldest versions of the bible vs new. NOBODY wants the old, just the new, the old are being thrown out daily, hum, another falling away. I see Fear taking place, over the issue. Remember it was Hitler who killed Jews and gays off. The same will happen again. They will be blamed for some catastrophe and anyone who they deem evil. There will be gays and Christians killed , by other gays and Christians who have the mark. Again, watch out for the hand/forehead spirit transfer.

  153. miss bridgewater Feb 28th 2013

    All roads are leading back to rome, via spirit transfer, and guess where rome is looking? into outter space for the next redeemer to return.

  154. Miss Bridgewater,
    Very interesting indeed. I’ve attended Pentecostal churches since 2003 (almost 10 years now) and, two years into it, began to find something very wrong in my church first (a lot of motivational, seeker-sensitive, shallow teaching of how God loves us and wants to bless us), and then in the movement in general. I left my church at the beginning of 2006, went to another church whose pastor preached a lot of Bible. I didn’t trust him and was wary for years, and in the end, my suspicions proved right. I ended up unchurched for a while, and came back when my pastor began to get restored after he disaffiliated himself from his parent ministry (a so-called apostle from Guatemala).
    I agree with a lot of what you say about Pentecostalism. The apostles and prophets movement especially could be blamed for many of the lies that have spread worldwide, as they are some kind of elite and are looked up to by many.
    I am not sure I would go as far as pronouncing Ichabod over all Pentecostal churches. There is a remnant who struggle against mainstream Pentecostalism and try to fight from within to convince fellow pastors that some things need to be reexamined and discerned. My pastor is one of those who denounced a lot of these modern developments, and has many enemies because of it. HE has been labelled divisive and legalistic.
    Apostasy is EVERYWHERE. In the Baptist churches I had the opportunity to visit, there was sound doctrine but people were rather cold and not really open to receiving visitors, and they looked at you differently (with suspicion) if you said you previously attended a Pentecostal church. Being a church that knows about the Word but doesn’t live in Christ, doesn’t work out that salvation in acts of true love, isn’t that a kind of apostasy too?

  155. Valeda VanDerSande Feb 28th 2013

    I am appalled that you have put ALL Pentecostals into one bucket. This one church iis not representative of all Pentecostal churches. I object! There are many Pentecostal churches in this world who do not embrace homosexuality as a norm. The bible says it is a sin. When this particular pastor stopped preaching the Bible, he in essence asked the devil to take over his church and the Spiritual context of the peoples. He should have been run out of the pulpet and out of town.

  156. I’ve read a number of the comments. I feel I can agree with most of the content here however I do have reservations in a few cases.
    The man who claims to be a habitual liar………well, I think you were actually mocking the seriousness of the original issue and that being the sin of homosexuality. I will agree with you that your sin just as my sin of pride, stubbornness, and whatever other sin I/we might list here but all forgivable. Praise God. Where your mockery comes in is why you find it incredulous that you cannot have a “LIARS PRIDE DAY” to display to the world how proud you are of your lies….your sin. I guess you could and would probably have a good group show to participate. But Jesus said…”Go and sin no more.” That is to imply, your sin is forgiven only if repented there of. Did I miss something? Where is your repentant heart?
    My biggest complaint with the homosexual issue is that these sinners and I call them that because that is what God calls it and they have rejected God’s word/biblical truth concerning sin. Forgiveness only comes thru genuine repentance. The homosexuals and activists do not offer God any repentance. Instead they mock God, HIS truth, HIS gift of Grace; and they insist on throwing this in the face of our entire society, they indoctrinate our children in school, they make public spectacles of themselves often to the point of obscenity for the sole purpose to offend, embarrass, and ridicule the rest of us for not embracing and validating their sin. These people want/need validation from the very entity they insult and mock. It simply is not going to happen outside of genuine repentance.
    Yes, many churches of proposed christians are folding and compromising their own personal judgement and biblical principles. This is why we are in the shape we are in today. Not because we have a group of insecure homosexuals running around begging/demanding to be accepted but because we as American christians have compromised God’s truth. Many christians have allowed them selves to be mixed with the unclean. They have fallen just as King Solomon did. He tried to placate his many wives;he tried to serve two masters. God says NO. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. HE has not changed and HE is not going to change. There is judgement falling upon this nation because of the sin and idolatry. As long as Americans and christians around the globe continue to fall away from God’s teachings and HIS truths, judgement will increase. It is prophesied. Yes, indeed, that door is very narrow and very, very few will find it. Only those who love HIM enough to keep HIS commandments will find that door. Jesus is looking for HIS perfect pure Bride…the Bride that loves HIM enough to put HIM first, repent and walk as HE walked……………sinless!!!!

  157. Pauline Richmond Feb 28th 2013

    Judging by the comments most Christians who believe and try to live by biblical principles know that Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Regardless of whether they think they just born this way it is still an abomination. We cant stop it, the bible tells us that. I try to love all people and all without Christ are in sin according to His Word. But the Church must not pollute the Gospel,water it down to suit the occasion. My prayer for some time has been to ask God for MERCY ON HIS CHURCH, repentance to come for bringing so much dishonour to His name. No wonder people turn away when we try and tell them about Jesus. Non practicising gay people should be given opportunity to repent and join the church community when and if they put aside that lifestyle. I have ready stories of people who have done just that and choose to obey God rather than the lust of the flesh and pleasure for a season. Whether this be adultery or any other thing against Gods wishes it can be done. So I say to the Gay Communty I love you as people, I am sad for your struggle but Jesus is still the answer and the way to eternal life not hell, which unfortunately all who disobey God ultimately will go. My prayers are with you. I fear for the Pastors who are allowing all evil practice in our churches..

  158. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    It seems pretty clear to me that Rob Buckingham made these compromising statements because he was trying to appeal to the youth – since “studies and surveys” show that we are losing them if we make a stand on the homosexual issue.

    Well, Rob – the time has come when you will have to decide which you serve – the modern “gay-brainwashed” youth – or the truth of the Bible.

    I’m sure the young of today love to hear from preachers that are so “accepting” of sin that God condemns. But God Himself might not be too pleased when you compromise His word for the “youth’s sake”.

    Time to decide.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  159. Dear friends,

    I see no biblical mandate for bringing the unsaved into the church.

    Preachers and evangelists went out into public spaces to share His word.

    The church was for those who were cleansed by His blood, freed from sin’s power and walking in His will.

    Those being drawn to Him were baptised – then added into fellowship (Acts 2:41)

    No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 Jn 3:6)

    Man has made the “Church” into something else.

    Preachers and evangelists generally no longer go out into the public spaces to share His word.

    The poor are no longer having the gospel preached to them.. This is in fact a sign of the Kingdom that is almost totally absent today… (Luke 7:22)

    Now, anyone is welcome to “church” whether saved or not.

    The modern “church” is orientated to drawing the world into it’s doors.

    This is why we are having this discussion.

    If we did Church in a biblical way, the matter would not arise.

    Salvation and baptism would be the door to the Church.

    Believers would be esteemed by the unsaved, who would keep their distance (Acts 5:13)

    The saved should be going out into the world with His love and His word to all who will listen.

    Bless you all…

    Carl Emerson.

  160. miss bridgewater Feb 28th 2013

    And the church is guilty of witchcraft, the occult, new age from the birth of the pentecostal movement, God began exposing the error right from the start over a hundred years ago in this country, The first thing he revealed to us was the holy shakers, then he showed us the holy rollers, then the holy dancers, They had something in them wrong to begin with, as they kept falling slain and now you have them drunk, high, in the presence better then sex spirit, everything glued in the spirit, God has been waiting patiently for all of these to repent, and see none of it, now receive judgement, only a few will come out. Same thing for the churches who promote sexual sin, he waits for repentance, if they don’t, then receive judgement. God said he’d kill the children of those who are promoting the occult….many kids are falling slain today…..
    To the church who promotes sexual sin…..a sick bed. the letters to the churches were the warnings for each of us.

  161. Wow, lots of opinions here.
    The law is “spiritual” so perhaps all “sins” must be telling us something about what is going on in the spirit that we should find it manifesting in the flesh!
    Could it simply be that the real “sin”, such as homosexuals, are a type of being fruitless? I know of no male/male or female/female that is able to bear fruit so maybe the real homosexuals; are fruitless ministers and the flesh manifestation is trying to tell us something? Same goes for child molesting, divorce, lying, cheating, or any other sin of the flesh! Perhaps all these sins are manifestations of what we are not being in the truth of our ministry or lives.. Again “the law is spiritual” so maybe all these “sins” should be looked at from the spiritual realm and not from the flesh, which profits NOTHING.

  162. Teshuva Feb 28th 2013

    Love your comment.
    The law is spiritual. Also every seed will reproduce after its own kind to include Gods/being created in His image and likeness. If one ministers from the flesh/carnal mind, then the seed is of the serpent, and the fruit is pride and self righteousness, etc. Same with abortions, in that many ministers either abort the children instead of allowing God to do His work in them. Many marriages, do not work because people are not first married to Christ the True Husband. We are to source in God who makes us complete and not source in any other thing, person etc.

  163. Yep, the churches are failing. Ministers who are supposed to be shepherds are misguiding their sheep…..they are leading them away from the corral where they can be loved, nurtured, taught, protected, etc. Mankind has proven he cannot be trusted away from the shepherd/sheepfold. Once outside, people begin to believe what the world is teaching… homosexuality is genetic. Well, I am here to say, God never created anything that would cause a person to be condemned to hell. And they are led to believe sex outside marriage is ok……that women having children without a father figure, drugs, alcohol…none of this works as it is sin and is outside GOD’s will from man. Time to read what Apostle John had to say to the seven churches in Rev….especially, Laodecia. I think that is American christianity today. We cannot write our own rules. We had best decide who we are going to serve. God Yehovah is a jealous god.

  164. Hello again,

    Carl, I agree absolutely with your comment above. There is NO scriptural basis for thinking that gatherings of members of the body of Christ ought to be inclusive of unsaved people. Contrary to what Michael said in his post, the Bible teaches very clearly that the gathering together of believers is for their edification. There are no instructions AT ALL in the New Testament about gathering together for the purpose of sharing the Gospel. The only mention of unbelievers being present in a gathering of the church, is the one I quoted above, in 1st Cor.14 and Paul begins that sentence with ‘IF’, not ‘WHEN’, which means that as far as Paul was concerned, this would be an unusual event, rather than the norm.

    If you look at my earlier post, you will see that this was my first of several common misconceptions about the church that has been accepted so widely these days, that many people just stare blankly when it is pointed out to them.

    As I stated, the Bible is quite clear that the members of the Body of Christ, aka the Church, having been built up and deified by their fellowship in the Spirit, are to take the Gospel out into the world, wherever they have contact with it, in the workplace, with neighbours, etc. There is no Biblical basis for altering any part of a gathering of the Church for the benefit of unbelievers.

    Another problem here is that we can all find a verse or three to justify almost anything, if we try hard enough, but the weight of scriptural teaching on how we ought to fellowship, tells us that unbelievers are likely to feel left-out at best and probably offended at worst, because they are not part of the family and no amount of love and compassion is going to amend that. This is actually right and proper according to scripture, because the Gospel is said be an offence to those who are lost.
    This is NOT unloving, selfish, or anything else, it just is the way it is. The Bible says this and we ignore such teaching at our peril. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to warn us not to fellowship with unbelievers in 2 Cor.6:14 and echoed this in Eph.5:11. Fellowship is what is SUPPOSED to be occurring when the members of the Church gather together, so this would exclude long term attendance of unbelievers.

  165. Alan,

    Amen to the above, and your previous post.

    It is rare to be able to raise these points on any forum, folks are so focussed on doing Christianity the way they have been taught rather than looking to scripture first to see what He prescribed…


    Carl Emerson.

  166. Sherry Feb 28th 2013

    I struggle with the difficulty of accepting the sinner and not condoning the sin. We have a lesbian couple who attend our church occasionally. I have a female pastor and one of the gals happens to be her granddaughter. She loves them, but makes it clear that she does not condone their lifestyle. I also have some gay friends that I pray for. They were involved in another church for years and were active in helping with church dinners, etc. It would seem that they were accepted and their lifestyle was never confronted. As we do that, they interpret it as acceptance of their sin. I would not want to face God on judgment day if I were that pastor. The word says that the goodness of God leadeth man to repentance. I have been praying that the goodness of God brings them to their knees. We need to love them, but also have a responsibility to confront them with the TRUTH as the Holy Spirit leads at the right time. Their rock is not our Rock (Deuteronomy 32:31; vs 16-33) They have been blinded by lying demonic spirits. As others have stated, if the power of God is working as it should in our churches, they would be falling on their knees in repentance. Our watered-down, unscriptural churches are ripe for the one world church and the false prophet. I see persecution ahead for those churches who do not fall in line with embracing homosexuality.

  167. Averyl Feb 28th 2013

    Absolutely amazing!
    Good that we’re all sorting out our differences!
    The parable of the two men who went up to the Temple to pray, – which one of them do you identify with?
    I know which one I am, and many of you wouldn’t have me in your church!
    How would you decide who to let in the door & who to turn away???
    Is scripture inconsistent here? Get rid of that wicked person vs. let the wheat & tares grow up together?

    I’m with you, Richard Savage, (hahaha, even Abraham was a liar!)

    Let’s sort ourselves out! CONFESS our sin & stop being so proud & SELF-RIGHTEOUS!
    Hate sin , not the sinners who are bound & blind until the power of God opens our eyes & sets us free.
    Are we God’s workmanship, He the Potter, me the clay?
    Or is it all up to our own will-power?

    All I know is that there are times when I’ve given up on myself & believed I must be a tare, but God in His great mercy & patience has immediately confirmed His love & acceptance of me in the beloved.

    Perhaps we should stop judging people by outward appearance but look on the heart via the fruit of the Spirit & the words people say.
    In our flesh dwells no good thing BUT the fruit will be manifest IF Christ dwells in our heart.

    Can we be holy without loving people?
    Our good works do not make us holy, only the BLOOD OF THE LAMB does that.
    Love alone does not make us holy either.

  168. What I don’t understand is why some people get all bent out of shape and start railing when a article like this comes forth. The Bible is quite clear on what God thinks about this situation.

    The church is a place for saints who learn of God and then go forth ministering to the sinners.

    About 15 years ago or longer we had a young gay man living in our home. He was in his late teens or early twenties, and had a horrible upbringing. He was involved in the occult and was molested as a young child.

    We was able to share the gospel with him quite often and he did show some interest. We took him to church with us on a number of occasions.

    This young man was always treated with respect as a person and was welcome to live in our home for as long as he needed to get back on his feet.

    After a period of time he decided to move out of his own free will but was welcome to stay with my wife and I longer till he became more settled. At the time he had no job.

    Now a number of years later he has been arrested for child molesting and has full blown aids.

    We always tried to keep a Christlike attitude towards this young man, but we have strong convictions on what the Bible says that it is an abomination to the Lord. Sin is sin in other words.

    I hope one day he turns from his wickedness and remembers what we shared and comes to the Lord.

    I do not appreciate church goers railing on Christians who are just quoting the Bible. Just because you quote the Word of God does not mean you do not have love towards people who are trapped in sin.

    Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to “go and sin no more”.

    Many here show by their comments attacking the article that they do not understand what the Word of God is clearly teaching. A little sin leavens the whole lump, in other words to allow people to practice sin in the church affects all the members to some degree.

    God forbid we would take up for practicing sin in the house of God.


  169. I want to address Rob Buckingham’s complaint to Andrew above.

    Rob, I have a few issues with what you wrote and I welcome any reply you may wish to make.

    You asked the following question (among others):-

    “Why didn’t you do the Biblical thing and approach me via email before going public with your criticisms?”

    Ummm, I take it that what you mean by ‘doing the Biblical thing’, is why didn’t Andrew follow the procedure laid out in Matthew 18:-

    “15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” (Mat.18:15-17)

    This is so often the cry of Preachers when someone points out their false teaching, but this scripture is not addressing false teaching, but a specific, secret sin by one person against another. The procedure is that as only two people are aware of this sin, then the aggrieved person should take all possible steps to keep it that way, but then, if he is met with an unrepentant response, to take along another witness or two, then take it to the congregation, and so forth.

    The issue of what you yourself preach and teach your flock, is very different, as it becomes a matter of public record the moment the words leave your mouth. The Bible has scores of examples of the Apostles warning the readers of their epistles about false teachers and there is no mention anywhere of a single one of them hashing it out with these false teachers before publishing a warning. There is one incidence of one of the Apostles (Peter no less!) being confronted and accused to his face in public by Paul, who was a latecomer compared to Peter and could easily have been brushed off by him if Peter hadn’t been prepared to humbly listen to what Paul was saying.

    Nowhere did Jesus sit down with the Pharisees and Sadducees to discuss theological differences in a quiet chat over bagels and wine. Nor is there any record anywhere in the whole Bible of a man of God quietly approaching the false teachers of his day to do the same. In every case, the ones who were preaching heresy were fist aware of the man of God when he began to publicly proclaim the truth and denounce the untruth, often in very derogatory terms and tones, I might add!

    If you are going to preach unscriptural things, then God will raise up someone to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints, as Jude instructs all Christians to do.
    If what you are preaching is truly from God, then you will still be attacked as the Bible says, but by unbelievers for preaching the truth, in which case you can count yourself blessed, as Peter says, because you are suffering for the truth of the Gospel.

    In contrast to this however, we see that your message has received great approval from the GLBT community, which brings this scriptural warning into sharp relief:-

    “Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”(Luke 6:26)

    These words of Jesus are a few verses after this converse expression of the same paradigm:-

    “22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. 23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.” (Luke 6:22-23)

    Either way, why do you complain of your treatment? If you are being ‘persecuted’ for being faithful to the truth of the Gospel, then Jesus says you are blessed and you should rejoice, but conversely, if you are being lauded by the evildoers, then you should beware, because you are in a perilous position.

    Andrew has taken words that you have uttered in a public forum and has commented on them in another public forum. Both of you have made your words matters of public record and therefore the strictures of Matthew 18 don’t apply. As a minister of the Gospel, you should know your Bible well enough to understand this, but I have noted this devious misuse of scripture before and while I hope that your own misuse of this passage is borne of ignorance rather than deliberate deviousness, it is still misuse of God’s Word and not something to be taken lightly.

    Secondly, you ask:-

    “Don’t we, as Christians, accept ALL people as they are? Doesn’t Jesus do this? Isn’t accepting ALL people and giving ALL people the chance to hear and respond to the Gospel what God wants”

    Several points to be made here. As far as I can see in the Gospels, Jesus didn’t ACCEPT all people as they were. It is common for people today to refer to a supposedly scriptural affirmation of the idea that Jesus was a friend to sinners, which is based on a faulty reading of the following:-

    “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.” (Matt.11:19)
    “The Son of man is come eating and drinking ; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” (Luke 7:34)

    It is often overlooked that Jesus did not say this about Himself, but He was quoting what His detractors said about Him, so while it is true to say that Jesus came to save the lost (meaning all mankind), there is no basis in scripture for saying that Jesus was a FRIEND of sinners, except the words of His unregenerate enemies. Did Jesus love sinners? Of course! That’s why He came to die for us! The Bible tells us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us, but that in no way implies acceptance of us as sinners. Rather, it shows that we desperately needed rescuing from our sins.
    The scriptures speak of sin in disgusting terms in many places, in both Old and New Testaments and the whole Bible makes it crystal clear that sin is absolutely UN-acceptable to God, so to speak of us having to be accepting of sin is frankly ludicrous. In many places, God’s number one complaint against His people, whether Israel in the OT, or the Church in The NT, is that they don’t take sin seriously enough and He is offended by their attitude.

    We know that as sinners, the only way to be acceptable to God is by faith in His Son’s sacrifice at Calvary, but we are also warned not to treat this sacrifice lightly (Heb.10:29)

    The second part of your question about giving people the chance to hear the Gospel is right and true, however, since when does the Bible teach us to do these things during the time set aside for fellowship? In fact, where in all the New Testament, is the procedure for conducting an evangelistic gathering? Nowhere! The Church is instructed to gather together for edification and the building up of the members of the Body so that they can then go out and preach the Gospel to the lost, wherever they find them. There is not a single scripture that tells us to go out and bring people in to our family gatherings for the purpose of hearing the Gospel. This has bred a lazy generation of churchgoers, who leave all the Gospel preaching to the Pastor, and who mostly don’t realise that the way they conduct themselves in front of their unsaved friends and colleagues at work, speaks far louder than any amount of preaching on a Sunday. In fact, in my experience, the number one reason people aren’t interested in going along to a church, is because they don’t like what they see in the conduct of professing Christians.

    Lastly, you said this:-

    “Why do you think it’s okay to spread gossip, and slander a brother in Christ? These two sins are in the same sin list as the one you probably use to condemn homosexuals (See Romans 1:29-30). Just a thought.”

    Here is the text you referred Andrew to:_

    “29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, ” (Rom.1:29-30)

    Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t see the words slander, or gossip here. You might be able to stretch the words ‘whisperers’ and ‘backbiters’ to fit ‘slander’ and ‘gossip’, however this list is not a list of general types of sins that are unrelated, but is part of a list of attributes that are ALL in evidence in the kind of people Paul is speaking of here, who happen to be those whom God has ‘given over to a reprobate mind (v.28). All of these attributes will be seen in this kind of person and this evidence is readily observable today amongst homosexuals.

    Given this fact, to accuse Andrew (or anyone else) of any one or two of these parts of this particular list, is to accuse them of all the other attributes as well.

    Frankly, this is a despicable (albeit veiled) insult to Andrew, from one who claims to be a brother in Christ yet!.
    I’m sorry, but your attempt at softening that by adding ‘Just a thought’ at the end, is as transparent as clear water and makes the insult even worse, as it also insults the intelligence of anyone who sees through the hypocrisy of the words.
    It is not ‘just a thought’, at all, but a very carefully crafted barb, intended to wound while appearing innocuous and I’m appalled that you would stoop to such subterfuge.
    If you want to insult the man, at least have the courage to do so openly!

    Sadly, your comments have confirmed for me what Andrew’s article intimated and done so with far greater force than the already alarming news in the article. I say sadly, because I take no joy at all in observing such a fall from the Faith once delivered to the saints in anyone, still less a Pastor.

  170. SteveG Feb 28th 2013

    A wonderful American Speaker Sy Rodgers has an incredible testimony of deliverance from this life style; Part of his testimony is that he was shown the “right” type of brotherly love and acceptance in a church he went to. The undiscriminatory nature of those brothers brought him to repentance and Christ.

    Ill never judge someone who is walking that way, there under sin, just as we are at times, But I will do everything in the Lords power and Holy Spirits leading to bring them to repentance.

    Before anyone judges the below scripture shows that Fornication is no different than Envy, Pride, slander (or gossiping about someone),

    Mark 7 v20 That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. v21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

  171. Andrew, I’ve never told about this here, but about 5-6 years ago I did that “how to have personal revival” thing that you had on your website. All I remember was that you pray for God to show you any and all unconfessed sins in your life and write them down and then confess them. Well, I did that and I shortly had a visitation from God that I never, ever expected.

    The fear of God came into my life like I had never known or even thought of. It was devastating. It was horrible. I was broken and weeping and trembling and AFRAID!!!! The initial experience lasted about three days solid. I thought at one time I might die. Really. My wife came home from work one day and found me in a heap on the floor and she said she thought I might be dead. I mean dread fear of sin and the world like I had never known. I feared anything to do with sin. To think of sin terrified me. Then after the initial experience it was sort of like after shocks that would come over me. I remember laying in bed at night trembling before God. I avoided TV or internet because of what I might encounter there. For days and days afterward I clung to my Bible, but I couldn’t read any prophetic or judgment type passages because it might put me into another tailspin of fear and trembling. This affected me for at least 6 months. I thought at one time I might not ever get over it but gradually the experiences of fear disappeared.

    It changed me. It changed the gospel as I understood it. The fear of God is what is missing in our christianity. That is where we find the motivation to stop sinning. That is why so many can’t seem to find freedom. God is too easy. The seriousness of the threat of sin has got to become foremost in our thinking. God is dread serious about His gospel and it’s power over sin in the life of His children. It got me over the hurdle that so many seem to be stuck at. Freedom from sin is the only acceptable standard for every christian. Living right is the only acceptable goal for every disciple of Jesus. Doing what He says is the only ambition we should have in life. It’s all I hardly think about anymore. Everything else is just incidental.

  172. SteveG Feb 28th 2013

    One more if you goto Sly’s Web site, and look up where he has spoken it states

    Christian City Church/ C3 Oxford Falls/Sydney, Pastors Phil & Christine Pringle and C3 Churches in Amsterdam, New York City, Atlanta, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Melbourne & Auckland; in conferences, church events and Bible Colleges.

  173. Richard Savage Feb 28th 2013

    Carl Emerson, thank you. Man after my own heart. We need to be so much more careful in what we describe as Church. Too often a Mother’s Union meeting is more aptly titled and recognised than the Body meeting together.

  174. Christian journalist Feb 28th 2013

    I was baptised in a local Baptist church after I became a born again christian. Because I later believed in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which are for the Body of Christ and her functions ( being the Bride), I was advised to seek a Pentecostal church.
    However, after moving home to another city, my wife and I, after settling in her old evangelical Baptist church which she attended as a young christian, because of our beliefs, we were advised to seek a pentecostal church in our area. This we did and became members of the Assemblies of God church.
    This lasted a few years until its leadership with support of most of the congregation decided to leave AOG and join the charismatic movement with those promoting restorationism. We did not agree to this so members made it akward for us to remain and being to say things “if you don’t like what the church is doing, then go somewhere else.” They did their best to get rid of us, so we left.
    There are no churches where we live that will come along side as christians for we have to go them, and if they do not like what we share, that is the Word of God, we are shunned and ignored which has been since.
    “Churches Together” is ecumenical and has allowed Roman Catholicism to come on board as the RC Church is considered part of the broad christian church, now being modernised by man for the 21st century.
    And now the christian church is prepared to allow homosexual and lesbians into leadership as well as accepting that this sinful practice is normal.
    The Word of God is being altered and abused making christianity a laughing stock for all to see. The church has lost its identity in following Christ and has been replaced by unbiblical teachings coming form within.
    My wife and I no longer do church as the christian church overall does not do as Christ says and misuses scripture to be of something else and meaning.
    Underground Evangelism was exposed in the 1970s for not doing what is said in its literature in taking millions of bibles into communist Russia.
    Morris Cerullo was exposed in the 1980s as a healer and false prophet. The miracles he claimed that happened at one of his rallies at Erals Court, London, turned out to be falseas some of the people who supposed to have been healed under his anointing, died later from the illnesses.
    Rev Don Stewart turned out to be a con artist using his position to fleece the flock who followed him and went off with the money and involved with tax evasion.
    The Toronto Blessing was an occult manifestion.
    The Word of Faith Movement is for building empires and mega churches deceiving many with the false prosperity doctrine to obtain money.
    And now the church is prepared to allow homosexualty as a normal way of life.
    The church is divided and there is no future of any unity coming its way.
    That is why my wife and I belong and remain in the Body of Christ. For there is nothing else that will feed us, pray with us, share with us, and help us through these times of crisis – the End Times!
    Praise the Lord!

  175. Richard Savage Feb 28th 2013

    The Body is exclusive, not inclusive. Each part of the Body is bought at a price; called out and called into an individual and exclusive relationship with Him. In Christ we live, move and have our being. Heirs to a kingdom, heirs of the promises. In this fallen world but not of it.

    We are priests before a Holy God, we enter that most Holy Place by prayer, trusting His righteousness imputed to us and not our own; washed in the Blood of the Lamb of God. Acceptable to the Most High. Heard on high.

    Our councils are exclusive to the Body, not shared with unbelievers. They bring the wisdom of this world, we feed on the wisdom of God. We worship in Spirit and in Truth. The unbeliever cannot offer acceptable worship. We fellowship with the Father and the Son, the unsaved fellowship with the world. They cannot enter the Holy of Holies, they are not yet acceptable to the Most High.

    In the Body the Word and the Spirit have come together.

    Christianity is not inclusive of all. In Christ is the most precious place to be. We may not give entrance to unclean spirits for the Holy Spirit then departs, grieved.

    Churches may admit who they like, our admission into fellowship with the Most High God is salvation by faith not works, His righteousness not our own.

    Weigh Buckingham’s statement, and many posted on this thread, by this eternal standard, not a standard we birth to please sinful selves.

  176. Hi Andrew, lots of comments here, and I only read the first few. Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this too, and maybe this is what Daniel and Jesus where talking about, “When you see the abomination that causes desolation, standing in the Holy place”etc.
    What worries me, is that should Jesus not return for a few more generations, and now that the “Gay lobby” has got everyone traumatised by being called a “Homo-phobic” if you don’t accept them.
    They have even been allowed to be married in some countries, another thing held Holy by God. What about our children or our grandchildren, when they are presented with homosexuality as an acceptable alternative to heterosexuality.
    This will be in their face when they are young children, and the temptation will be strong for them to experiment.
    I think that most here know that homosexuality is a spirit, and a very powerful one that defends his ground with a lot of accusation to anyone that might object.
    I think we should be careful not to get drawn into his argument, as he is an expert in this.
    And we should not judge those that have been captured by this, nor should we be offended by them, as this is exactly where the accusations have ground and gaining more, day by day.
    As it says in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, and Gal. 5:19-21,they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but then, neither will a lot of others on those lists.
    We were all a slave to sin, but now set free, and they can also be set free, if they choose to repent and obey the Gospel.
    The spirit over them, only has accusations, we have the Truth, and the Spirit and the Word always agree.
    I was in the same boat about finding a good church that haven’t left the good foundation, Jesus, but then I found Empower Church at Castle Hill.
    They don’t believe in the “Cheap grace” message and nearly every song they sing is about Jesus.
    Something lacking in a lot of “Christian music” these days.
    They celebrate communion every week, and believe in all the gifts.
    They also support anything that you want to do, to reach others for Christ.
    And they are very friendly too.
    I think that Andrew quoted the Senior Pastor there in one of his recent emails, David MacDonald.
    He’s a top bloke and really down to earth, he just retired from the leadership of the COC churches all over Australia, and even remembers every-body’s name that he meets. His son is the pastor there, and he always has time for you too.
    So there are some left, and I’m glad that I found this place.

  177. watchful Feb 28th 2013

    It seems there are different separate issues being discussed here…..? One issue has to with our attitude to the lost, a valid subject in itself, but a different issue altogether is what this article is highlighting – the fulfillment of prophecy, the falling away spoken of in scripture, and it helps me wake up to the lateness of the hour, and I believe these things are NECESSSARY TO DISCERN in order to be separated in spirit from what is not the true church of Jesus Christ. Very timely for me personally in wake of randall lowry’s warnings. Yes, it begins, sadly, amen Andrew….and as it happens I just yesterday heard from someone who foresees the governments of the world seeking out the church for advice……… so maybe next step is to watch for a truce or coming together of church and state, the harlot riding the beast, maybe that will mark the time when persecution of true believers will begin in earnest in the western world. I believe we can learn a lot from looking at the state of affairs in Israel at the time of Jesus’ first appearing……….what has been will be again.

  178. halleluia Feb 28th 2013

    thanks for the information on this issue..I sent an email and here is the reply I received from them…

    Dear ********

    Thank you for your email and expression of your concerns regarding this issue.

    We wanted you to know our position on this matter so there is no confusion regarding our beliefs.

    Below is a short statement that we trust will help clarify our stance.

    C3 Churches hold to the historic Judeo-Christian view of sexual union being between a man and a woman in marriage. We do not recognise the practice of homosexuality as biblically valid for a follower of Christ, nor do we promote it. We do however promote and expect God’s great love and grace to be shown to all, regardless of their orientation.

    Also we wanted you to know that Ps Buckingham has removed his blog at our request as it does not reflect our beliefs.

    Kind Regards,

    C3 Church Global

  179. angelos Feb 28th 2013

    My dear Bro. Andrew, Again you stand firm in the midst of controversy and compromise. Recently, while in prayer, the Lord revealed to me that the “Church” was lacking a voice. I pray that yours and others who stand for Truth will not be silenced! I have read many of the comments concerning this issue. I can only add, one heart felt thought. If the Church would practice, “2 chronicles 7:14 more, we might not be having this discussion. The Lord bless you and keep you. I believe the last days are upon us.

  180. Andrew, I haven’t had time to review the comments to this article. However, I suspect I have something which has not been touched upon.

    In June of 1984, I was given a paper by a friend of mine. It was a position paper by a committee of the United Church of Canada which promoted the ordination of homosexuals within their midst.

    Two months later, I was a delegate to the General Conference of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, held in St. John, New Brunswick. The topic of the ordination of women had been raised at numerous, previous Conferences and had been rejected every time as being contrary to the teachings of Scripture. This time, however, the resolution was passed.

    Sadly, a several issues concerning this were deeply impressed upon me by the Holy Spirit. The first, was that both the resolution and the pro arguments were not based on the exegesis of Scripture, but rather upon egalitarian bases. The second was that the IDENTICAL arguments used in the paper on the ordination of homosexuals were used to support the ordination of women.

    Following this, I privately proclaimed to those close to me, that in the future, unless they repented, we would see the Pentecostals not only accepting homosexuals in their midst, but “ordaining” them to the ministry.

    Sadly, sadly, sadly, this prediciton is beginning to come true.

    IMHO, much of Pentecostalism in the western world has left the foundations of their movement and have sought for – and embraced – an acceptance by the world. Because of this, they have changed the true gospel to false gospels of easy believism, health, wealth, and prosperity, and getting “zapped by the Holy Spirit” (which, as you well know, often results in kundalini practices and demonic activity). They promote false christs proclaimed by false preachers, teachers, prophets, and evangelists, as Christ prophesied would happen in Matthew 24.

    We may be shocked, but should not be surprised at the current move by so-called Pentecostals to embrace homosexuals as a part of their “churches.”

    Sorrowfully, this indicates that they have abandoned the very Word of God as their foundation, for God condemns homosexuality as an abomination in the Old Testament and, in the New Testament, proclaims that they CANNOT and WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

    May God bring those to repentance who have ears to hear and may He raise up His Church, which has counted the cost, died to self, and which will proclaim His truth – even in the face of ridicule, persecution, and martyrdom. “The servant is not greater than his Master” (John 15:18-25).

    God bless you, brother,

  181. Andrew…. what is your problem the web site refers to “The official Bayside website also published the following statement:
    “Bayside Church welcomes GLBT people to find God´s love and
    grace and to worship Him freely within our community.”.

    Would you refuse any gays etc admission to your church if you were a pastor..

    They need salvation as much as anyoneelse.

    Oh by the way,

    Have not seen any reaction to Todd Bently’s apology and request for forgiveness broadcast a few times on G-d TV.
    Will you accepting his apology Andrew


  182. This is a very confusing world, if you are not grounded in His Word. God is very clear about sins, however. He hates sin. It doesn’t start or end with homosexuality. People cannot seem to agree. They either want to ‘love’ sinners to death to show they do not hate; or they stear clear of them like the plague. This is one of the most important positions to ‘achieve’ in the Christian life. Love them but challange their style of life. You didn’t choose their course of action. They did. You are to show them how God looks at sin. If you are serious about your life, how can you be comforable knowing ‘a sinner’ is hated for that sin by almighty God? We need to let them sit quietly and listen, not to get in a church to run it. Unless that submission is from God Himself; that position is not possible. Their reasoning is from satan himself. We, on the other hand, rely on God’s patience and love. Satan usually fights to win. Our will, will decide the battle.

  183. It is worse here in America. One group of “Pentecostal Bishops” has openly endorsed Homosexual Bishops!

  184. This is such a difficult subject for us humans to handle in a godly way.

    I was sitting in the bath recently when a couple of so-called Christian homosexuals came on the radio to justify something or other – I forget what. My Christian self-righteousness rose in my gorge as I listened to what they were saying when suddenly the Lord spoke to my heart and melted it. He said, “You know nothing about these people, why they are the way they are, what has caused them to be like this.”

    I was totally convicted of my judgemental attitude and I realised my job was to pray for them, not to condemn them. There may well be generations of abuse or some other curse operating and in an individuals life holding them in bondage, and all we can do is pray.

    On the other hand to openly endorse homosexuality and/or to encourage it would be utterly wrong. It is not easy to find the way of wisdom here. But preaching it is right is certainly not it!

  185. Thanks Joan I wholeheartedly agree,
    Let’s Welcome them to hear the gospel
    We sing with enthusiasm ( or used to do so) The vilest offender who truly believes , that moment from JESUS a Pardon receives..
    IF we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin. The BLOOD OF JESUS cleanse from all sin
    The problem I find confusing is that there seems to be groups that don’t want G L B T in their churches so they can hear of God’s love and redemption, and how He can completely change their lives.
    ( Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not love…………..???


    Anyone reaction comments on Todd Bentley ?
    This web page was very ready to condemn him,( not without reason),

  186. L. Alex Smith Feb 28th 2013

    Miss Bridgewater: your rant against Pentecostals is out of line. The RCC did not bring in Pentecostalism through the Jesuits… it started (in small steps) through Revival/healing ministers in the 1800’s being filled with the Holy Spirit of God, and speaking in tongues. However, it was but a few drops of rain from Heaven until an Outpouring (see Joel 2:23 ff) in 1901. There it was that a small Bible school, perhaps 12 to 20 students, in Topeka, Kansas was given an assignment by the teacher, William Seymour or Charles Parham (I can not remember which). He said that he was going on a trip for two weeks, could everyone please look up in the Book of Acts and the NT all the places where people were filled with the Holy Spirit, and give a full report when he returned. Upon his return, to the man each student had come up with the same answer: that the one consistent sign or indication of the infilling of the Spirit, was speaking in tongues. Then, a young woman named Agnes Ozman asked if they would pray for her, laying on their hands just like the Apostles did, for her to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This was just as the new century was dawning, literally around midnight Dec. 31, to Jan. 1 1901. The very presence and glory of God came upone her, she was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Scriptures say– for about THREE DAYS !!! Following this, soon God began doing the same in a revival meeting of “holiness” teachers, in a livery stable on Azusa Street, Los Angeles, this time it went on for several years. Class prejudice was erased as fancy ladies in frocks knelt in the sawdust next to factory maids… the very presence of God in His holiness radiated from the place… once a couple thugs decided to go there and beat up the people and smash things up– as they proceeded down the street toward the place, the conviction of the Spirit of God fell upon them while they were still a thousand feet away, about a quarter mile!! They kept on coming, however, crawling on their hands and knees, with tears streaming down their faces, blubbing like babies, crying out in repentance for God’s mercy!
    How far the Pentecostal movement has fallen from its beginnings, is sad…but there are still churches who revere God’s Word, and preach the Gospel, ALL the Gospel, which includes Mark 16:17-20….”He who believes and is baptised shall be saved. He who believes not, shall be damned. And these signs follow those that believe: in My Name, they shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents and not be harmed [provision for accident] and drink deadly poisons [same]; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.” Just because some people abuse or falsify the Gift of God, does not NEGATE the original!

  187. Faan Oosthuizen Feb 28th 2013

    “Without holiness no one will see the Lord.” What applies to homosexuality, applies to ALL sins. All sinners are lost. If we allow ANY sinner in our churches, we cannot discriminate against gays by refusing them. If we refuse gays, we need to refuse all sinners.
    So, what now?
    All sinners, including gays, are wellcome in our church but they should confess their sins, and repent and call on Jesus, the Saviour, to forgive, deliver, cleanse, save to the uttermost, justify and to sanctify them – so that ALL their sins may stop and that they may live holy lives. Then they will see God. The church should help and encourage all these until they are helped – and have come to all the fullness of Christ.
    Anyone continuing in any sin, is still lost and need to continue seeking Jesus until He has saved them from all his sins.
    If a sinner however stops repenting and confessing and stops seeking deliverance but excuses or covers his sins, he is condemned. He is handled according to Matt. 18.
    No one still sinning may be a leader. How can he help others if he has not found help and the answer for himself?
    God requires true righteousness and holiness and this is the only consistently justifiable position the church can take.People who do not teach this, are proud, know nothing, are obsessed with disputes, …… 1Tim. 6:3-5.
    If ANY sin is allowed, all sins must be allowed to be consitent. Any church which allows any sin, is not the church of God, but of devils.
    The blood of Jesus CLEANSES FROM ALL SINS and can make us holy, spotless, without fault, blameless, whiter than snow, overcome Satan, etc. HOW?
    Zech 10:12 -13:3 says how: If we look up to Him whom we pierce and crush with every sin, and if we confess it and mourn bitterly for HIM – THEN He forgives, delivers, cleanses, justifies and sanctifies us perfectly through the blood we confess we have spilled with each sin. Whithout this (confession of the shedding of Jesus’ blood) there is no forgiveness or deliverance from sin. Hebr. 9:22.
    If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

  188. Vicki Lynn Feb 28th 2013

    Is Sodomite the correct name for Homosexual?

    We all have to be taught to turn from all/any sin we commit including homosexuality.

    But is homosexuality being taught as a sin, in the churches
    ( or )
    Are they only game to preach on things like Lying etc etc. ??

    I guess it is ” FEAR OF MAN ” the reason preachers do not preach about homosexuality as being a sin.

  189. Faan Oosthuizen Feb 28th 2013

    Important addition:
    If a sinner however stops repenting and confessing and stops seeking deliverance but excuses or covers his sins, he is condemned – as the Holy Spirit clearly illustrated in Acts 5 with Ananias and Sapphira. He is handled according to Matt. 18.

  190. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    Actually with regard to Todd Bentley, our major concern was always the alien “anointing” he was transferring to masses of people. Has he repented of this?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  191. Tell them they are welcome to come, but then don’t compromise the Word of God.

    Preach repentance from sin, and the ones who don’t want to change will leave.

    This is the problem with most of the churches – repentance from sin is not preached, so the church grows – full of people who want to stay in their sins.

    However, this will not happen – no matter what the sin. The homosexuals will be welcomed without preaching repentance (just like no sins are preached against now).

  192. Totally agree, Davo!

    I also went through a time of fear and trembling before God, although it was quite different from yours and covered a span of years.

    We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Only those who have been to this place of proper fear know what this means.

    It is a holy reverence that keeps ones mouth shut and waiting on the Lord before moving or making any decisions, no matter how small.

    Only when we have experienced God firsthand in this manner can we truly understand how to deeply love the lost and speak the truth to them properly.

    (thanks Joan W!)

    I thank God for the strong hunger He brought on me to know Him and to walk holy. I also thank Him for His mercy for bringing me through 10 years of spiritual abuse, which drove Me closer and closer to Him.

    So few have anything more than a surface knowledge of Jesus.

  193. Also agree with Carl and Alan above concerning the gathering being for unbelievers.

    Carl said – “I see no biblical mandate for bringing the unsaved into the church.

    Preachers and evangelists went out into public spaces to share His word.

    The church was for those who were cleansed by His blood, freed from sin’s power and walking in His will.”

    The church gathering is for the “church” – those who belong to Christ. We are under no obligation to accept them in. Our purpose for gathering is to build one another up and pray for one another and then go out into the world and be a light that shines in the darkness.

  194. Averyl Feb 28th 2013

    Maybe our problem is that we look for the church with carnal eyes, we try to box in the Church.
    We want to be able to point to the exclusive true Church by saying its here, or there.
    It would be nice & tidy if we could judge between the saved & unsaved, sinners & saints, us & them, that crowd,(out crowd) & this crowd,(in crowd).

    We can use scripture to say anything we want it to.
    Try 1 John 1:6 – 10: –
    “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
    But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    If we confess our sins, He is just and faithful to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness..If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us”.

    Do you see the contradictions in this passage?

    No-one has addressed the parable of the wheat and the tares.

  195. It’s Time to JUDGE!

    John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

    1Corinthians 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

    Zechariah 8:16 …Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace…

    1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 …withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly…

  196. Averyl,

    Wheat and tares cannot be visually separated.

    Clearly there are some with whom we have fellowship who have hidden sin keeping them from entering the Kingdom, and God alone knows.

    That is altogether different from the issue we face here.

    In this case we have folk knowingly wanting to continue in a moral practice that His word condemns.

    Jesus himself rebuked the churches that tolerated such people and practices in Rev 2.

    That does not mean that all in fellowship must be perfect, but that they have agreed with His word and repented of all known sin.

    You will notice in Rev 2:21 that Jezebel was given time to repent but refused.

    I think we forget that Jesus is the ultimate judge and He condemns immorality and gives it no place whatsoever in the church.

    We are not being judgemental in the flesh simply because we agree with His word.

    Jesus is a just judge and he wants us to exercise the same just judgement.

    Immorality is very common in the modern “churches” because leaders have repeatedly failed to do this.


    Carl Emerson.

  197. I worked with a colleague who was a partner in a homosexual relationship. He was kind and gentle and would not say boo to a goose. He seemed to be liked by most women who accepted him to what he was. He was a drinking partner with many.
    His partner was well respected at church and got involved with church activity.
    What was found out and people noticed that he spent much time at the vicarage. It belived he was having an affair with the vicar who was a divorcee.
    The vicar believed on all sorts of things which were in conflict with God’s word in the bible.
    Dave and his partner are no longer with us as they died later after being diagnosed as HIV positive.
    The vicar left his church as he was attracted to the students at
    the city university to become their chaplain. He likes the male company!
    No one can play God or use the church for their own purposes. They do so at their own peril.

  198. Amen. Well spoken, Carl.

  199. Hi Averyl, in the parable of the wheat and the tares the field is speaking of the whole world, which is divided into two distinct groups of people; Believers and unbelievers, or saved and unsaved, if you like. When the scriptures speak of the Church, they are referencing the Body of Christ, or all those who are saved. There is no Biblical basis for calling a group of people that is made up of both saved and unsaved people, the Church, as the Bible uses this term exclusively for those who are saved. Those who are unsaved are called ‘the world’.
    When Jesus explained the parable of the Wheat and the Tares to the disciples, He defined the terms in the following manner:-

    “37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the WORLD; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the WORLD; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this WORLD.”

    I have capitalised the word ‘world’, to highlight the fact that Jesus was NOT speaking of unbelievers in the Church, but unbelievers in the World.

    This parable is often misused to excuse the presence of unbelievers in church gatherings (what we mistakenly call ‘church’ these days, as in; ”I’m going to church.”). It is far better for sake of clarity, to refer to church gatherings, or a meeting of the Body, which is what is really happening; the Church is gathering together for fellowship.

    As I and others have stated, the gathering together of the saints for fellowship is NOT designed for unbelievers according to scripture, but is exclusively for those who are members of the Body of Christ. The Bible calls this fellowship and it uses that term to speak of a relationship between believers who are present, as well as between those believers and the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father:-

    Acts 2:42, 1 Cor.1:9, Eph.3:9, Ph.2:1, Ph.3:10, 1 John 1:3, 6, & 7

    In the following places we are told NOT to have fellowship with unbelievers:-

    1 Cor.10:20, 2 Cor.6:14, Eph.5:11,

    This doesn’t mean that we are to have no contact at all with unbelievers, as Paul says in 1 Cor.5:10, that to do so would require us leaving this world altogether. Besides, we are His witnesses in the world, as we live according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If we are truly doing this, we can’t help but be witnesses, because our conduct will be markedly different from those around us. Our language, our general behaviour towards others (especially towards the Boss!), and in many different ways, they will notice a difference between themselves and us and they will often ask if we are Christians or sometimes they’ll ask if we’re ‘religious’, by which they effectively mean the same thing.

    The question asked by many here is; “Don’t these people need to hear the Gospel too?”

    The answer is; YES! Of course they do!

    So when you get the opportunity, preach the Gospel to them, in word and deed. That’s why you need to be built up in a gathering of the Body, so that you can be effective witnesses of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
    But the idea of bringing in unsaved people to a gathering together of saved people (the Church), is really unfair to both the unsaved people and to those brothers and sisters in Christ who are there.
    In conversations with non-Christians, I have often been told that they felt ‘out of place’ and that they didn’t belong, which is what the Seeker-Sensitive movement has tried to address by making Church gatherings less uncomfortable for these people. This is foolish, as they will not hear the Gospel for fear of offending them, which is the only valid reason for bringing them in the first place. The Gospel will ALWAYS be offensive to the lost before it can be Good News, as it has to teach them first that they are sinners in need of a Saviour, then teach them who He is.
    The reason unbelievers feel out of place, is because they ARE out of place!
    As much as an Englishman would be out of place at a Chinese wedding where no-one spoke English!
    This is because the things that the believers will be talking about, singing about, and listening to are in fact foreign to them, as they are (or should be) spiritual things, which the Bible says can only be understood by those who are spiritual. Unbelievers can’t understand them for this reason.

    The passage you quoted doesn’t have any contradictions that I can see, but if you mean that this passage validates the inclusion of unbelievers, then you have misunderstood what John was writing. John is speaking to believers here and his words are not referring to unbelievers at all.

    When John mentions sin and the confession of sins, he is saying that WHEN we who have been saved stumble and sin, as long as we are honest and acknowledge our sins and ask forgiveness, then our sins will be forgiven (because of our relationship with Jesus). An unsaved person will not readily admit to be anything other than ‘a good person’, while a believer, who knows that there is ‘none good but God’, will (or should) admit that they are in fact not good, but sinful and in need of grace and forgiveness.
    John’s Epistle is a way of testing ourselves to see if we are saved and this is one of the proofs of salvation, that we will acknowledge the truth of the Holy Spirit’s conviction, confess, and ask forgiveness. The unbeliever will not do this.

    What he is NOT doing, is making a case for allowing unrepentant sinners to have fellowship with repentant believers.

    Also, I must disagree with your inference that we can’t know hether or not someone is saved. Although many people hold this erroneous view, the Bible disagrees. From the words of Jesus in Matthew 7 about fruits, to the statement of Paul where he mentions false brethren in 2 Cor.11:26 & Gal.2:4, there are many references to people being able to able to discern saved from unsaved, sinners from saints, etc, as you put it.

    If you don’t see what Paul’s references have to do with this, then the question you have to ask is; How did Paul know that these were ‘false brethren’? Given that Paul often stated that he was no more than a sinful man like any of us, if he could discern false brethren, then so can we.
    The only corollary to that is that we make such judgements in humility, remembering our own positions. (Gal.6:1)

    As for trying to ‘box in’ the Church, the only viable definition of the Church, is the one given us in scripture and as I’ve pointed out, the Bible doesn’t speak of a church that contains both saved and unsaved people. The Bible speaks of the Church as being EXCLUSIVELY saved people.

    There are instances where the Bible speaks of backsliding members of the Church, or lukewarm members of the Church, or even deceived members of the Church, but these are all people who have been saved, without question. The references to such people are all warnings to them to change, or they will be excluded by the Lord Himself.

    None of this changes the answer to the question of whether or not a Church group should allow CLBT people to regularly fellowship with them. As far as Paul is concerned, the idea is an oxymoron:-

    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    (2 Cor.6:14-18)

  200. Amen. Well said, Alan.

  201. Sally Mar 1st 2013

    Agreed – Well spoken, Alan. Thank you for sharing.

  202. John, I think most of us Christians have witnessed exactly what you mentioned. That’s our human reaction to things we can’t understand and solve. Here we’ve diligently focused on God’s statutes and determined to be like Him. Wrong! We keep trying and finally God ‘knows how serious we are and gives us that special boost we need, a kiss of maturity.

    Doug, When we shy away from sinners, we are admitting that they might influence us. We are weak, we are vulnerable, we do not want to be tempted. God knows that is hard on a young Christian. It takes a full lifetime for one to grow strong and safe in His love, in trusting Him totally. We are as filthly rags. When we know He is leading and guiding from on high, we can cope and overcome. Ps 1 is our best instructions about growing like we should. The Bible tells us how we should grow. I did for years and was still confused. When I applied it to everything I did, and shed my insecurities, everything changed. I totally fell in Love with His whole creation, and to accept myself as me.

  203. One needs to identify sin and seek deliverance from it. Whether it is masturbation, homosexuality or adultery. A lifestyle that has become socially acceptable does not change its nature in the Word of God. Today it is Gay, later it maybe polygamy. Accepting a sinner without accepting the sin, is how we need to behave as good Christians who can help everyone, including ourselves, to repent and reconcile to God, or else, very soon I will not be able to identify some of the sins as unacceptable to God. Sins have become hazy these days, we are conditioning ourselves to tolerate it and slowly accept it as the sign of the times. But our greatest sin is in trying to attribute it to God’s telerance and acceptance.

  204. Averyl Mar 1st 2013

    Alan, – Thank you for going into so much detail to explain the answers to my questions.

    Obviously there is no place for me, my family, or friends of different persuasions, in the Church. We are all sinners, – some repentant, some bound, some blind.
    If I was without sin, I wouldn’t know anyone else sinfree to fellowship with.

    We have clearly deceived ourselves, believing that Christ is in us.
    I thought we were supposed to love the sinner & hate the sin.

    Perhaps I shouldn’t even be polluting this forum.
    I’m having a time of serious doubt, – not about our Lord Jesus Christ, but about my walk with Him.

  205. I apologize that I haven’t had the time to read each posting here, but have skimmed through most. The problem I see is that we seem to be missing a major sin within the church that God has said He hates, yet it seems to be totally ignored in all the churches I’ve attended or heard of. That is of divorce and remarriage. Marriage is to be the type of Christ and His Bride, the church. Yet, within the church, completely unaddressed, is divorce and remarriage. When people have come for counsel to the church, they have been given certain “excuses” for making the divorce is okay. When the divorced come with another mate, I’ve seen, and always seen, this greeted with joy that the person has ‘found another to love’. Yet God has said, and has not amended, that he who marries a divorced woman makes her an adulterer.
    I would appreciate hearing what others have experienced with this, and of course would appreciate hearing what Andrew has to say. It seems that it was a very early opening of a door to sin within the church. A very early “winking at serious sin.” Before the Lord came in the flesh, Malachi prophesied that the divored men who had married others leave their current adulterous unions and return to the wife of their youth. I know of some that God has told this very thing, and they left the adulterous marriage. When they did, by the way, the church there said “No, two wrongs don’t make a right. Stay in this marriage as though it is the first.”
    Do we need to wait for the Lord to say to repent and return to the wife of your youth? I’m not being sarcastic, but honestly wondering about this.

  206. Sally Mar 1st 2013

    Averyl – If you are serious (and not being sarcastic), then take a look at Andrew’s guidelines for having a personal revival here –

    This is the process that Davo talks about in the comments above that brought about the fear of God on his life.

  207. Sally Mar 1st 2013

    Cara – You are right – Divorce and remarriage is truly a serious issue.

    I was involved with a ministry for 10 years that even taught that it was important to come out of a marriage when it was a second marriage situation (with the first spouse still alive).

    It can be quite a complicated issue. Yet, many of the marriages, I believe, are wrong in God’s eyes due to the clarity of the New Testament scriptures.

  208. Hi Alan,

    In the parable of the wheat and tares, the Greek ‘Kosmos’ for world can mean the human race… This would then include the Church but certainly not be an exclusive reference to it.

    In this matter it would seem to be the case that Ananias and Sapphira were tares in the Church.

    Maybe this was a foretaste of the judgement to come…

    Hebrews 12 would seem to summarise quite well what should be the prevailing attitude in the Church.

    This being one of awe, gratitude, patience, purity, reverence, obedience, joy, graciousness, love… in no particular order.

    This is far from the social club atmosphere we are mostly familiar with these days.

    As the modern ‘church’ has moved away from it’s roots a certain devotional component has been lost along with the fear of Him.

    Bless you,

    Carl Emerson.

  209. Paul, james, jude, peter………….the APOSTELS
    KNEW more than many.
    And the bottom line is PAUL said IF ONE calls themself
    a BROTHER………………and is still a fornicator, covetous, etc.
    DONT EVEN EAT with them……………….
    Dont count them an enemy, BUT admonish them
    TEACH < CORRECT ,etc………
    PULL THEM OUT……………………….YOU HAVE saved a SOUL from death. SAVE SOME by compassion , OTHERS by fear.
    A lil leaven CAUSES the WHOLE LUMP to rise.
    STAND on what the APOSTLES SAID, not mens reasonings.
    THE LEAVEN is rising mass to the full IN ALL SINS……………
    BECAUSE none will warn to truly REPENT.
    and remember…………for those who close their eye to sin and not warn one to repent…………………as paul once said
    YOU will NOT Receive eternal life at the end.
    or at LEAST WARN.
    I feed and am kind to many gays……………….BUT they KNOW
    i know its sin. i will NEVER once say its NOT………..
    and IF ONE IS called a brother in CHRIST………………..and wont repent………………..then I DO as paul and them said to do
    NOT mens reasonings…………
    the falling away………………………was from WHAT the apostles
    taught the church, sound doctrine. and its massive.
    Andrew……………….i need warn you
    From sites past…………………….we have had men come in
    and pretened to be CHRIST like, ONLY to try and sway through OPINIONS . NO man following CHRIST would omit
    what HE said, NOr what paul and others in the bible told the church.
    Be on gaurd andrew……………….and always speak truth as you
    have been doing today.
    STAND firm all others…………………….for many claim to be of Christ, and even come with a good story……………..
    but their agenda is to sway YOU from truth. Be wise .
    MANY have entered sights to try and win people to this new age cause to make many feel condemned for standing on GODS holy TRUTH, his every word. TO make us look as haters.
    Sandra is RIGHT ON. SHE and i both know, and we love all.
    BUT we will warn all or any who is in ANY SIN………..
    GET OUT NOW……………..or the end is death. amen.
    warn and keep warning, and give them food and be kind.
    BUT WARN and keep warning. NEVER STOP. amen.

  210. Cara, you are absolutely correct. Remarriage (after the divorce from a covenant spouse) is every bit as wrong as homosexuality. And our churches are full of it. I don’t believe that God will help us conquer the homosexuality issue in the church until we have repented and turned away from the adulterous marriages.

    I respect Andrew very much, but I have brought this concern to him on a number of occasions and he has not yet responded. I pray that if it is for fear of losing 99% of his supporters, that God will give him the courage to do so!

  211. Sally Mar 1st 2013

    I don’t believe all sins are equal – (gasp!) and it is not scriptural.

    Homosexuality is an abomination, as are other sins. Please don’t compare sex between two men as equal to gossip …

    … it just isn’t.

    God is clear that some sins are worse.

    Some sins are direct perversions from what He has created.

  212. Kae………………..
    It is adultery to remarry unless the spouse dies
    or fornication was involved.
    How often i have been told i am in error and that God gives grace to do so. He gives grace……………….BUT NOT to sin willfullly.
    I have remained single now for years.
    I was once married and divorced.
    Then later i came to Christ and learned what HE said .
    And i have known that i cannot again remarry
    lest my former wife dies. And how i have been told
    i am in error. You are right on.
    and many more sins do they teach as truth.
    When the heart is After GOD and His every WORD
    then one is kept back from error.
    Once one has come to CHRIST , to sin willfully there is NO more
    sacrifice for sins.
    I dont condemn those who have been married more than once
    IF this was DONE before coming to CHRIST. BUT after COMING
    this is KNOWN sin……………
    there is a difference between the lady who had been married five times………………….SHE had DONE THAT BEFORE KNOWING CHRIST……………thus when she recieved HIM ……………..all was forgiven. BUT to remarry after knwoing CHRIST…………..
    is willfull sin. And to teach otherwise is grievious error.
    Many men, and woman have erred in this Before coming to CHRIST ………..and thus WHEN or IF they truly come to CHRIST
    they shall be forgiven. BUT after knowing HIM………………….
    they are in adultery. how often i have heard from some
    that i am in error and can remarry………………..
    BUT to do that would be death. FOR i KNOW better
    by the words of CHRIST.
    And all things are POSSIBLE in CHRIST
    for i have been single over ten years. THIS can EASILY BE
    done IF OUR HEART is upon HIM and not on us.
    ANY sin can be overcome in CHRIST
    if our heart is ON HIM and not on us.
    but today many make excuse to sin or remain in sin
    by BELIEVING and teaching we cant OVER COME .
    this is a lie…………..and will ONLY keep those in BONDAGE.
    and all can be OVERCOME by OUR FAITH IN HIM.
    Listen not to reasonings of men……………..
    HEAR only CHRIST, learn of HIM
    read HIS WORDS and KNOW they are TRUTH.
    not mens. amen.

  213. Averyl, I apologise for not making myself clearer and causing you some pain. That was not my intention, I assure you.
    First off, it seems you think that unsaved people are sinners and saved people are saints, therefore saved people don’t sin. This is what John was trying to explain in his first letter. Although we have been saved and are considered righteous by God, that is because of our faith in what Jesus did, not because we don’t sin.
    John is speaking to saved people and he clearly says that WHEN we sin, if we confess those sins God is faithful and just to forgive us them. He also says that if we say that we don’t sin, then we are deceiving ourselves and ‘the truth is not in us’ (v.8). This should be an encouragement to you in your time of doubt, because John’s whole purpose in writing was to show us when we doubt, that one of the proofs that we are truly saved, is that we will readily acknowledge sin within ourselves. The fact that you do so, proves that you are saved, as only one with the ‘the truth in them’ would do this.

    The problem is that we have gotten used to terms that are not helpful, like saint versus sinner, when Paul clearly calls himself the chief of sinners, yet at other times his words show that he includes himself among the saints. The issue is not whether we sin or not, the issue is whether or not we are saved. That means regenerated by the Holy Spirit to the point where we can recognise our own sins and ask God’s forgiveness for them. The BIble says we are new creatures in Christ Jesus (and this is how God looks at us, as perfected by the blood of Christ), but we are still in the body of this death, as Paul puts it, which means that we will still wrestle with sin, ’til the day we die.

    Unsaved people, absolutely can be recognised by saved people using this passage in 1 John among others, to see what reaction they produce when faced with a question of whether or not they sin. John tells us that those without the truth will say no and this is proof that the truth is not in them, whereas those who admit to sin in their life, are advised to ask for forgiveness, which will be faithfully extended to them who do have the truth in them. To have the truth within you is to have Jesus within you, as He IS the TRUTH and also it shows that you are being led by the Spirit of TRUTH, which is one of the names of the Holy Spirit.

    Please be encouraged, that as long as you can recognise your own sinfulness, then you do so only because the Holy Spirit is within you making you aware of it. Therefore you can be confident that you are truly a born again child of God.

    The issue in the article above is not saying that only sinless people can be in fellowship, because then all humanity would be excluded. The point is that true fellowship can only be experienced between God and members of His family, the Church. These members of God’s family on earth still sin, but they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and there is no condemnation, as when God looks at them, He sees the righteousness of Jesus His Son, not our filthy rags.

    It is very different when it comes to those who have not been born again by the Holy Spirit. As they have not had faith in the grace of God and accepted the work of His Son on the cross as a substitute for their sins, they are still separate from the Church. God doesn’t look at them and see the righteousness of the Son, He sees their rebellious sinfulness.

    This is the barrier that exists between saved people and unsaved people, not that one lot have no sin, but that they have accepted God’s gracious provision for being washed clean, while the others have not done so and are still standing in the muck, outside of the presence of God, as God and sin cannot mix.

    This is not a matter of what we think, but a matter of what actually IS the fact of our situations before God. We who are believers can come into the presence of God, but those are unbelievers, cannot. No amount of debate, discussion, or anything else will change that fact, as God has stated that this is the case and His Word is final. He doesn’t change, ever.

    So, we should rejoice in the fact that we have access to the Father through the Son and grieve for those who don’t have the same access. We should do all we can to bring them to the realisation that this is their situation before God, but if we don’t take this idea of separation seriously enough to keep them from our times of fellowship, then how seriously are they going to take our words that they are unable to have fellowship with God and still remain unrepentantly in their sins?

    Please don’t feel condemned because you are aware of sin in your life, as we are all in the same boat. Read through 1st John and follow his advice about confession, etc. Be aware though, that you are not in the same boat as practicing Homosexuals, or unrepentant adulterers, etc, because they obviously feel no shame in their sins, else they would be repenting, whereas you do, obviously, which makes you very different from them. That doesn’t make you better, just different. That difference is a vitally important one though; You are a child of God and they are not.

    I hope this helps.

  214. Sally, Randall, and Kae, thank you so much for your wisdom and courage. To call this deadly sin “covered by grace” rather than sin is not an easy thing to do. It seems to be something that one could be stoned for by the ‘church’. (For recognizing and calling divorce and remarriage sin.) I wonder if those who feel called back to the spouse of their youth may be the start of a movement toward a return to repentance and holiness within the true church?

  215. Homosexuality is part of the brokenness of creation.
    Not God’s original plan but not something you can change,
    How to deal with this matter than.
    Absolutely not with judgment and rejection.
    Jesus grace overshadows also this brokenness.
    We can be radical against these type of relations, but of we decide for this position we decide to be against ourselves.
    We also have parts of our life that our not in live with Gods original plan where grace overshadows judgment.
    Look to who Jesus went in his days en with which attitude. Often radical against what was called to be the right way.
    That’s why I am convinced that there is a place in Jesus heart for the hetero- home- bisexual and transgender,
    Sin can not be the right word for something you have no choice in, sexual orientation is something you are even if it is part of the brokenness of creation/
    Roman 1-2 tells us straight forward that things are not right but at the same time that we can not judge because so many things in our lives are not right too.
    God’s judgement is so different than we think.
    The Shack tells us in the chapter: Here come da Judge that God’s judgement is so radical different:
    ‘Not about destruction but about setting things right.”
    This helps us to come to the conclusion Mack came to in the book: ‘I don’t feel stuck anymore.’
    .In Jesus are things right what is not yet right on earth.
    In him that gap is bridged between how things are and should be.
    In Jesus our brokenness is healed and are we complete.
    This does not say that all our situations are changed or that we are perfect.
    That would not be realistic or true.
    It changes just like Paul in the bible who changed so radical that he a very orthodox Jews could embrace and respect the hated Roman in himself.
    If we read the bible as a law book or life guideline we end up with a killing yoke of religion forced on people.
    We see that the Old Testaments use rules but more often we see God going beyond by these offers festivals and other thing to reach disobedient and lost people with his love.
    In the New Testament Jesus fulfilled the law festivals and offering.
    In and though him a new way started where he bridged the gap between God’s ideal he set out in the sermon on the mount and the reality of life he went to after the sermon.
    Coming down to our human level.
    A wave of grace that was more or less frozen started to move over creation in the Jesus earth life this wave increased and became fluid so to say.
    After Jesus death and resurrection this wave moved forward from the Jews to other tribe’s tongues and nations. No longer bound to rules set in the Old Testament but increasingly in tune with many cultures. With increasing understanding for the human situation and the power of grace.
    The effect of this wave of grace does not end with written words in the bible but does move’s through time and we as humans can grasp an understanding that is greater than in the time of the early church. It is a process of grace.
    In the bible we see in the apostolic letters already that the answer in questions and issues do change by a growing greater understanding of grace. This will not be different in our times.
    Looking at the subject can we says that in Jesus people are complete and renewed also in their sexual orientation.
    They are whole and welcomed home. Even their feelings do not change

  216. watchful Mar 1st 2013

    Amen randall, the Lord bless you..I see what you are saying about the falling away being from sound doctrine..

    There is a huge difference between embracing a not-yet repentant and blood-washed sinner, and embracing him as part of Christ’s body……this must not be, because nothing unclean may enter the Holy Place. Wash him first and then he may enter in.

    Am I wrong in thinking of Daniel’s prophecy, the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong, that this is that or leading up to that……..and Jesus words to flee when we see that happening……… Why does it cause desolation..?……because there can be no hope of salvation for that sinner or any other in such circumstances, where there is no washing of the water of the truth……?

  217. To add to my original comment in this comment thread, I’d like to say that my point isn’t that unrepentant sinners shouldn’t be allowed to attend a congregational meeting or enter a Church. My point is that they shouldn’t be accepted as members of the community unless they eventually show repentance of their known sins, admit when they discover new sins they didn’t know that they were committing, and express a desire to change for the better with God’s help when they do confess their sins. All sinners, including the leaders of any congregation, need to show their regret when they confess their sins openly, and they should show humbleness and a desire to change.

    Repentance and a desire to change are true signs salvation. Unfortunately, many people reading any call to repentance often miss the point, which is that the church is no place for UNREPENTANT sinners to hang out. People come to Christ to find forgiveness for their sins. If they don’t want forgiveness, they don’t belong in the Church. Yes, Evangelism takes place in the Church, but if it falls on deaf ears, the people who won’t repent don’t belong in the Body of Christ. The Apostle Paul tells us to flee from unrepentant sinners, not to hang out with and “accept” them.

    The Church is a place for repentant sinners to grow stronger in their walk with Christ, and for sinners to find out they need to repent. If they don’t want to repent, they don’t belong. It’s that simple. The New Testament Scriptures repeatedly say that anyone who sins without seeking repentance will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is not my opinion. It’s in Scripture. In fact, there’s an entire chapter from the New Testament letters of the Apostle Paul that explains what I am saying here, and what we need to be mindful of. Here it is, as translated in the New King James Version of the Bible:


    ~*~ 1 Corinthians 6 (NKJV) ~*~

    Do Not Sue the Brethren: “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

    Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

    Glorify God in Body and Spirit: “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

    Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.”


    The scripture that I quoted above basically says that we need to judge one another’s conduct and make sure we are living a life that is pleasing to God. Paul said that it is our job to judge one another! But we must always remember to do so with a spirit of love and forgiveness to temper our judgments. In this way, we can help our brethren to grow in their walk with Christ, and to blossom in their ability to show the power of the Holy Spirit within them. This will be reflected in them as they become more like Christ in word, action and deed. And that means sinning less, and repenting more!

    To add to this, I’d like to share a link to an article I wrote recently about the role of Judgment in the Church. I hope that it will convict and bless you in your walk with Christ. Here it is:

    IMPORTANT POEM BLOG ARTICLE: GOD CALLS HIS SAINTS TO JUDGE ONE ANOTHER – Excerpt: The Scriptures teach that the Word of God is useful for instruction, reproof, and correction: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” – (2 Timothy 3:16, NKJV). Taking this Scripture into consideration, we cannot instruct, reprove or correct others unless we know how to make righteous judgments…

    Pillar of Enoch Ministry Blog:

    I pray that this article will bless you and help you to grow in spiritual understanding as we await the Rapture. In the meantime, remember that Yahshua is coming SOON! Maranatha!

  218. Marc, with all due respect, homosexuality is clearly defined in the very passage you quoted, as a sin that is very different from others, in that it is expressly said to be AGAINST the natural order of things and is also said to be a direct result of a steady, determined rejection of God.
    Verse 24 tells us that God Himself has been the initiating factor in their situation because of this attitude of theirs toward Him.

    This is very far from being like the sort of sins that beset believers and therfore needs to be approached differently. Paul complained of things that he found himself doing that he recognised as sinful, but certain sinful practices would not have been among those that he was referring to. It is one thing for a believer such as Paul or ourselves to sin by omission, or lose our temper for example, and quite another thing for a believer to commit murder, or adultery, or a homosexual act. The same goes for such things as pederasty and bestiality. These are not the kinds of sins that a believer would stumble into, like telling an untruth, or being caught with pride in their heart at some time, or being unloving towards someone, etc, all of which are sins, but nowhere near the level of those serious sins mentioned above.

    It is of course our duty as christians to be loving and compassionate towards all unsaved people, but it is not part of love and compassion to ignore sins such as murder because we ourselves aren’t perfect. I am involved with two ministries to people qho’ve been sexually abused in church settings and this idea that becauae we ourselves aren’t perfect, we should be more accepting of people who commit such acts is abhorrent, but it is the most commonly stated reason why churches don’t report such behaviour to the authorities. I have had people say that it’s just a sin like any other and we all stumble, so we should show love nd compassion to the perpetrator in the hope that he will be saved and that we shouldn’t have him locked up, as this would be unloving!

    I hope you can see how wrong such thinking is. Yes, we should pray for such a person. Yes we should pray that God will give us the grace to show him compassion. But not at the expense of alerting the authorities and having him locked up! This kind of thinking is so widespread in churches, it is astonishing, yet many thousands of victims report that they have been told that they have forgive their abuser, even in person in some instances, while the same church bidy refuses to have this person face crminal charges on the grounds that ‘we’re required to love the sinner’!!!
    How much love and compassion is being shown the victim in such a scenario? The number of damaged children, teens, and even adults who have been wounded by the inaction of churches when they have reported this vile assault on themselves, is heartbreaking. Many of them understandably want nothing more to do with Christians of any kind, which is a terrible thing.

    I know of many cases where pederasts have been allowed to remain in fellowship on the grounds that they need the positive input, while their victims have been told that as Christians they have to forgive and forget.

    This is NOT a Biblically acceptable way of dealing with such a situation.

    So, there are some sins that are vastly more serious than others in God’s eyes and as well as this one, homosexuality is another.

    The Bible clearly tells us that there are varying degrees of sin and some of them, such as homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, murder, are mso far beyond the normal everyday sins that we all wrestle with, that to lump them all together is ludicrous.

    We wouldn’t allow a petson who advocated sex with children to spend time with our families would we? But if we are going to be even-handed, we should if we are perpared to allow homosexuals to do so on the grounds that excluding them is unloving. Why should the pederasts be prevented from the same consideration as the homosexuals?

    What about people who advocate bestiality? Or people who have a desire to kill? They need the Gospel too, so why not include them in our chirch gatherings? What about witches and satanists? We might as well go the whole hog and include all these in out church gatherings. The Pope already joins with satanists, wiccans, and pagans as part of Rome’s ecumenism on these very same grounds, so maybe we should just rejoin the Catholic church ad they are obviously more accepting than most churches.

    Pardon my sarcasm, but I think it’s needed to make the point.
    How far are we prepared to go in our acceptance of sinners?

    Love them by all means, but allowing them to fellowship with us is just not Biblically valid.

  219. Sorry about the typos, I was on my iPhone.

  220. It’s obvious that the early church had no issues where the civil authorities had to be brought in to arrest certain members of the church for criminal activities or that the church could be accused of covering up criminal activities by it’s members. Something is vastly different in the way they operated than the way we do today. Discipline was exercised within the church. People were expelled for unrepentant sin. It seems accountability of members went way beyond what almost any of us have seen in our churches. The church in the New Testament didn’t need the world to police it’s own people and had no fear of being complicit in covering up illegal activities.

    This may seem strange to some, but biblically, I would have just as much reluctance to call the police on a member of the church as I would to allow someone any access to the church, as a potential criminal. I thought the church was about mercy. You know, merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful. Justice is the province of governmental authority, to which the church is to submit but that isn’t our role. Mercy is our role, exclusively, just like Jesus taught and practiced. Where do we see Jesus or any actor or writer in the New Testament enforcing justice on anyone? Nowhere.

    The gospel of lawlessness or saved in sin gospel has corrupted the church and has made way for criminalities within the church which bring in the necessity of civil authority to address them because the church doesn’t enforce righteousness as the necessity of it’s members.

  221. We judge those within the church and that may amount to expulsion, but it doesn’t go beyond that. Those who are outside God judges, remove the wicked man from among yourselves. I Cor 5:13. Excommunication puts someone outside. God’s other system, justice, of governmental authority then kicks in.

  222. watchful………………… blessed.
    and others as well.
    A few have spoken of worse sins and sins
    and this is truth. But any sin is sin and should be crucified
    daily . Romans chapter one does a good job of explaining
    the natural affection between a man and a woman
    and the vile or unatural affection.
    THEY did NOT WANT GOD thus they were given over.
    OF course i still believe they can come out of this.
    BUT we need be made scripture wise so this can HELP US
    to really go out and help others.
    I just wanted to also make a point.
    IN romans chapter one paul explains about natural affection
    the natural use between a man and woman.
    and then unnatural or vile affections.
    WHY do i bring this UP…………
    IF we read also in the king james
    and LOOK at what paul tells timothy in chapter
    three about THE LAST DAYS…………………
    DO take NOTE it says…………………they will be without NATURAL AFFECTION……………… why is this GROWING so fast
    this was ALWAYS COMING…………….and its WORLD WIDE now.
    AND do take note……………….HE begins it
    with PERILOUS TIMES shall come
    WE who wont conform to these new churche moves
    and movements of the WORLD
    and some PUT TO DEATH.
    ITS coming and it is needful to warn
    so that when it begins, NONE are taken by suprise.
    THINK. When all this is legalized as it has in other countries
    HOW LONG before even the BIBLE is counted as HATEFUL.
    and those who cling to fundamental biblical truth
    as haters………….who wont conform to this worlds peace, unity
    and love. THE end result will be………………
    time to rid the earth of them. THIS is coming
    and NONE had better conform to this world nor churches
    sensual love and false peace and unity.
    REMEMBER the son of perdtion destroys many THROUGH PEACE, and this world is all fast becoming focused
    on PEACE , from the leaders of govts
    to rick warren churches……………all is fast creating a one religion
    which near the end…………..WILL betray all who wont conform to this……………the END is much closer than many realize
    all signs are appearing and WORLD wide they are appearing.
    IN hitlers days is was germany
    BUT in these days………………this movment is WORLD WIDE
    so the next man of the HOUR will be the LAST man of the HOUR and will destroy WORLD WIDE.
    THIS time WE will be the WORLDS scapegoats

  223. Lightning Storm Mar 1st 2013

    Homosexuality is rooted in SELF-WORSHIP.

    It is SELF-LOVE indulged to its FULLEST degree.

    It is NOT a “sexual lust” problem, it is a SELF-LOVE that has been indulged in to the point of becoming YOUR OWN GOD AND WORSHIPPING YOUR SELF by finding another person or persons that REFLECT YOUR IMAGE.

    A homosexual has become his/her own GOD and recruits worshippers in his/her OWN IMAGE.

  224. Richard Savage Mar 1st 2013

    Lightning Storm, some understanding of the matter at last! Thank you.

  225. Lightning Storm Mar 1st 2013

    What the world calls NARCISSISM …… its fullest point, as in the world of Noah and the world of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Psychology and Self-Esteem preachers; Humanism; and the culture of “do not deny a person their goals, dreams, desires” ….ESPECIALLY your FAMILY’S .

    Self Idolatry; Family Idolatry; and Spousal Idolatry are the sins that are practiced and taught in the churches. Have been for hundreds of years…read about it in the OT and the NT.

    Why do you think Abraham was told to sacrifice his son?
    Because God commands us to WORSHIP NO OTHER GODS. Abraham could not inherit the promises the God made to him unless the One True God was the only one Abraham worshiped.

  226. Averyl Mar 1st 2013

    Sally, – I was not being sarcastic.

    Alan, – thank you again for your clear words of encouragement & reminders, I truly needed that! God bless you, brother!

  227. Amen to the last six comments! I would add though, that while it is true that we have no record of members of the Church being turned over to civil authorities, it is precisely because such people as pederasts, etc, would not have been included in fellowship with groups of believers in the way they are today.
    Church discipline would see them excluded.

    Elders were people of discernment, who could and did spot ‘false brethren’, as is evidenced by Paul’s references to such people, as well as Peter’s denunciation of Ananias & Saphira, John’s charge against Diotrephes, etc. Today we are told that we cannot know whether someone is truly saved or not, only God knows, but the record of scripture says otherwise. If the Apostles could recognise false brethren and warned us to watch out for similar people, then it stands to reason that we can also discern such things.

    A friend of mine has written a book about the scourge of pedophilia in churches and devotes a large part of it to this very subject of using discernment and Church discipline. He points out that the only way these dreadful criminals can operate in churches the way they do, is because churches no longer adhere to Biblical principles or listen to the leading to the leading of the Holy Spirit in these matters, but rely on man-made notions of how church groups should operate.

    The idea that any of the geoups of New Testament believers would allow homosexuals, pederasts, bestialists, etc, into their fellowship is unthinkable given Paul’s reaction to the Corinthians tolerating the immorality he mentions in 1Cor.5.

    On that note, at least that was sex according to the natural design; between a man and a woman. It was still a very serious matter for all that, but abnormal sexuality (in the natural sense) it was not. Seeing as Paul was so adamantly opposed to the acceptance of this by the Church at Corinth, what would his reaction have been if this had been a couple of homosexuals?
    Far stronger, I’m sure!

    All sins are abhorrent to God and need to be rented of, but not all sins are called abominations.
    It’s time Christians began to get back to the Biblical ways of looking at things. As long as people refuse to accept that there are varying degrees of severity of sins, there will be confusion and unscriptural accommodations made for people who should be excuded from fellowship.

    No-one would call for excommunication of a repentant person who confessed to telling an untruth (I hope), but they shouldn’t have any problem excommunicating an unrepentant habitual liar who has been caught out many times. Logically, it follows that someone who is openly homosexual, in defiance of God’s Word, should be excuded as a matter of course, as should a serial killer, serial adulterer, etc.

    I have no problem at all contacting Police about a pederast I become aware of (or a murderer for that matter), even if that person happens to be part of a congregation. A pederast who killed at least one of his victims here in Australia some years ago, was a church Elder of good standing and although a few people ‘had reservations’ about him, they let it go, with tragic results.
    Me, I’d have reported him. If there was nothing in it, fine, but I’d rather err on the side of caution than have a 6 y.o. girl’s blood on my hands.
    On two other occasions I have actually encountered pedophiles (in the same church!) and although I wasn’t fully aware of their deeds, I did have a check in my spirit not allow either of these men time alone with my kids. I was younger then and didn’t take it any further, but now I would.

    Not because I hate them, but because I love children too much to just let it slide.

  228. Lightning Storm Mar 1st 2013

    Call down judgment….if you have the nerve…..Just as Ananias and Saphira were judged for lying to the Holy Spirit….

    Ask Father to bring HIS JUSTICE and Judgments to the people who are committing sin while they proclaim HIS NAME.

    But….those who point the finger had better have PERSONAL INSTRUCTIONS from the Father…..because if you are LOVING yourself more than God; if you have OTHER gods; if you have IDOLS OF THE HEART…….then you will be judged with the SAME JUDGMENT.

    Call down FIRE upon their spirits and souls…..and upon yours at the same time….to burn out all DROSS; ALL DARKNESS; ALL WICKEDNESS; ALL INIQUITY…….

    THAT is much kinder and loving. (If you know what the Fire of God is, you will agree)

  229. Jack Guerin Mar 2nd 2013

    This article Pentecostal Accepting Gays doesn’t answer the following questions. Are they being baptised or given church responsibilities while continuing in their sinful practice? Does the pastor preach true repentance? I believe you need to check out further details before rushing into print about what “accepting” means. Jesus accepted everybody and so should we. But my questions need to be answered before we condemn this pastor/church

  230. Laurie J Mar 2nd 2013

    Lightning Storm, homosexuality representing self-worship is exactly what the Lord has shown me. Before we point our finger at those who are homosexuals in the natural, we had better look at God`s own people and the spititual homosexuality(worship of self) that runs rampant among us. Every time we make our own plans apart from the Spirit`s leading or do our own works in the flesh, we are exalting self. We are putting the creature before the Creator. Laurie J.

  231. Sally Mar 2nd 2013

    EVERY sin is “self love.”

  232. Sally Mar 2nd 2013

    or “self worship”

  233. Sally Mar 2nd 2013

    My point is:

    This is no new revelation.

    Homosexuality being a sin of self worship is not new.

    All sins are such.

    Either we want to be seen, or we want to have something for ourselves, we want to be the best, or we want to have it our own way.

    It’s all self worship.

  234. Andrew Mar 2nd 2013

    Jack – this article was well researched. Here is the heart of the matter – a direct quote from Rob Buckingham-
    “As a Christian, and pastor of a
    church, I sometimes find the attitudes of fellow Christians
    embarrassing. We have a number of gay men and women in our
    church and they are accepted just the way they are – just like
    everyone else is.”

    You will not hear this pastor calling Homosexuality “sin” and telling his congregation to repent of it.

    He is actually bringing the “Love Orientation” guy in to speak at his church. (See the other thread).

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  235. Some have deep truth. sally etc, others as well.
    As david once said O lord cleanse me of hidden faults
    and keep me back from presumtous sin.
    And the elders of the early church Sure did know what was false
    and Did not allow it into the church.
    a lil leaven will leaven the whole lump.
    Let us always behold both the goodness and severity of GOD
    to keep us and others in check at all times.
    Look at one for the other. and stand firm in sound doctrine.
    And win souls amen.

  236. Lightning Storm Mar 2nd 2013


    Every sin is actually UNBELIEF. It is because of our UNBELIEF that we worship other gods and idols.

    You can trace EVERY sin in the scriptures back to YOUR UNBELIEF about 1 or all 5 of these next 5 statements.
    OR you are believing a LIE about 1 or all 5 statements.

    1-God is Who HE SAYS HE IS (not man’s opinion)

    2-God can do what HE SAYS HE CAN DO (not what man says)

    3-I am who GOD SAYS I AM (not what I say or man says)

    4-I can do ALL things IN Christ Jesus. (this takes more than just a few sentences to explain what “IN CHRIST JESUS” means)


    Rev 21:8 But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING (, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and IDOLATORS, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

  237. The first time I ever heard of homosexuals being accepted in church was when I was in Bible college, which I don’t recommend based on my experience, but that’s another issue. This was about 1979. This was a traditional type, missionary minded, pentecostal school of about 250 students.

    There were two former students who had joined the staff of Earl Paulk’s church in Atlanta who had returned to visit the Bible school and were telling of how Paulk’s church was allowing homosexuals into the congregation as a means of reaching them. Their message did not go over well at the school at that time and many students took issue with them over that kind of practice.

    I always remember those two and their claim to be on the cutting edge of what God was doing in His church when I think of Earl Paulk and all the sexual perversion that was running rampant among the leadership in that church.

  238. Richard Savage Mar 2nd 2013

    Davo, I too was at Bible School in Eire for a while, around that time. Stayed 6 months. It was a dreadful shock to me what was allowed, even taught. Quite different from the Biblical image of our Heavenly Father and his beloved Son.

    No, neither do I recommend Bible School to anyone.

  239. Sally Mar 2nd 2013

    Lightening Storm – I understand your point, and it is well stated. I agree with you that all sins are unbelief.

    I also still believe that all sins are self worship as well, or based on selfishness.

    We could also say that all sins are based on fear, which is much the same as unbelief.

    I don’t think you and I are in disagreement. Perhaps we’re simply seeing the same thing from two different perspectives.

    Some food for thought, wouldn’t you say?


  240. Lightning Storm Mar 3rd 2013

    Excellent words Laurie J.

  241. Because we have a new self which is created in all holiness and righteousness of the truth and because we have in this new self the Mind of Christ and because we rejoice in this new self in the Law of God in our inward beings and because our new self delights to do God’s will and has His Law (His Moral Character) within our hearts – whenever the Holy Spirit puts it on our hearts to “speak out” against all manner of wickedness – then all the Authority of Heaven is behind us…

    Submit yourselves therefore to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you…

    Homosexuality is a perversion…

    God created us male and female…

    The Head of Christ is God…

    Man is the head of the woman…

    Christ (although being God) submitted to God the Father…

    We men are to submit ourselves to Christ and our wives are to submit themselves to us…

    This is God’s Divine Order…

    Christ is equal with the Father but submits…

    The wife is equal with the husband but submits…

    When this is in place we can resist the devil and he will flee from us…

    Children are to submit themselves to their parents…

    The woman who is unmarried is to submit herself to her father…

    We are all to submit ourselves to the higher authorities – under God…

    When we are not submitted to God we are under the domain of satan and he can do with us whatever God permits him to…

    Do we – as Children of the Living God – really want to have satan doing with us whatever he wants to as permitted by the Lord?

    I don’t believe so…

    God is Faithful…

    This has nothing to do with us or our strength – this has everything to do with the strength of God to protect His Own and to honour that faith that would offer ourselves up to Him for His protection by submitting ourselves to His Appointed System of Authority…

    This is where we will find God’s Grace…

    Help us Lord to submit to You in every aspect of our lives and to know Your Protection as we do this and see You transforming us into people who reflect Your Glory to the world…

    Love in the Lord,


  242. watchful Mar 3rd 2013

    “Every time we make our own plans apart from the Spirit`s leading or do our own works in the flesh, we are exalting self. We are putting the creature before the Creator”

    Yes, this is so very true, but unfortunately that seems to be just what this Australian church and others like it are doing.

  243. watchful Mar 3rd 2013

    Think you are on to something there Andrew J, that a deterioration of order is involved………. because of having lost connection to the Head. (Col 2:19) That’s where proper order begins, so it stands to reason that’s also the point at which deterioration can begin from what I can glean, if that makes sense.

  244. Lightning Storm Mar 3rd 2013

    The word SUBMIT is used VERY loosely to mean OBEY.

    But, if you look at ALL the instances in the NT, it is only used a few times for OBEDIENCE.

    The Young’s LITERAL Translation uses the Greek word HYPOTASSO only twice in the NT and always referring to OBEDIENCE TO GOD.

    In nearly ALL of the verses quoted by Andrew Horton, the Young’s LITERAL Translation uses the Greek word IDIOS.

    The word SUBMIT in the majority of verses that Andrew J Horton used is referring to SUBJECTING one’s self to another person’s treatment of you.

    It is referring to NOT PROTESTING; NOT RESISTING but LONGSUFFERING instead of reviling and arguing and trying to persuade.
    LONGSUFFERING is one of the 9 fruit of the Holy Spirit which is often MIS-TRANSLATED as “patience”.

    We are to SUBJECT ourselves, HUMBLE ourselves around ALL PEOPLE as we are putting our TRUST AND OBEDIENCE IN THE LORD.

    Obeying people is a certain DEATH TO ONE’S WALK WITH GOD. Forget about being an OVERCOMER.

  245. Lightning Storm Mar 3rd 2013

    Subjecting ourselves to another person’s TREATMENT is NOT a popular teaching in this day and age.

    We are raised to believe that we DESERVE to be treated well, especially by our family and our friends in church.

    We are raised to EXPECT good treatment and if we are not being treated good then we have the RIGHT TO PROTEST, RESIST, ARGUE, DEMAND, OR LEAVE.

    THIS is what the scriptures quoted by Andrew Horton are telling us NOT TO DO.


    Way different than what we are taught in church about SUBMISSION.

  246. Socorro Mar 3rd 2013

    What else can yo spect from Babylon the Great, Mother of All Prostitutes?..the only real thing that true chistians can do is obey God..Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    THIS is the ROOT of the problem.
    IF i am even a slave to an evil man i am to submit to his rule
    that the name of GOD be not blasphemed.
    LADIES and MENS……………….
    THIS is HUGE TRUTH. self will not have any rule over it.
    THUS womans lib, shovanitic men who want self rule over.
    i say both because some men use this as POWER rather than service to the wife. and some women just wont submit to no man.
    EITHER way the end is death.
    the only way a good woman of GOD can win an evil husband
    is to submit………………..yet through her words
    her godly fear , can win the husband to CHRIST.
    and men………………..woe be to thee
    who exalts himself above the status of CHRIST
    for CHRIST came to serve………………..
    ANDREW J is right. and any who have a spirit of rebellion
    of any who is in position of authority that GOD gave…………
    not man, BUT GOD made , is in massive danger of hellfire.
    ALL of us must submit to GOD, and from there all else
    will spring forth.
    I suggest we take seriously the writings of paul and them
    who actually were the FIRST FRUITS……………….
    the falling away occurs when people brings strifes of words
    to change meaning so as to not HAVE TO obey etc………
    the KING james is ACCURATE. no need for extra words
    to change meaning to suit lifestyles.
    ANDREW is right.

  248. lightning made a good speech.
    WE are raised as though we are special and thus
    should have no wrong treatment…………
    this in the end…………..will lead to cursing those who oppose us
    rather than PRAYING FOR THEM .
    much evil these days…………………..much evil

  249. That’s the way I’m seeing it watchful, the “proof of the pudding” with respect to our submission to God is our willingness to submit to those who He’s “lined us up under” (hupotasso) in the natural, this is the proof of our love and trust towards Him… 🙂

  250. watchful Mar 3rd 2013

    ….in a word…….meekness……..and that can only come as more of Christ in us is revealed.

    After I was abused, many years later the Lord showed me pride and rebellion, in………….me! What???? A sense of “entitlement” that I was entitled to not be abused! So contrary to man’s way of thinking…….and so ” I “, yes “me”, had made a bad situation so much worse – tangled webs and crooked paths, put my foot in a snare. Our Father is so wise……and me thinking myself so smart, have been…….a fool. Well I guess I had to become a fool so that He could start to make me wise, at least I have that hope. He proves Himself right every time. 😉

  251. Praise the Lord… 🙂

  252. I would encourage each of you to go onto iTunes and listen to some of the other sermons I have preached over the tears. You’ll find out that I am orthodox in my understanding and teaching of God’s Word. I also get along side people who are neglecting their salvation – or living in unconfessed sin – and point them in the right direction. I’ve found, however, that people can heed advice more effectively when they know you love them and have their best interests at heart.

    Love one another. Love your neighbour as yourself. Do to others as you would have them do to you. These are the commands that Jesus gave us. Truth must always be spoken in love otherwise it becomes harsh and unpalatable, just like this blog and some of the comments above. The Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is a wonderful filter for blogs and blog comments. I.e. they should be kind, loving, gentle etc. Against these things there is no Law. God bless you all. Rob

  253. PS. That should read “Over the years” 🙂

  254. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    The point that I have been making (obviously not clearly enough) was the same point as Jesus was making in the following verses:

    Jhn 8:1 KJV
    Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    Jhn 8:2 KJV
    And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    Jhn 8:3 KJV
    And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    Jhn 8:4 KJV
    They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery (OR HOMOSEXUALITY), in the very act.

    Jhn 8:5 KJV
    Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    Jhn 8:6 KJV
    This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not].

    Jhn 8:7 KJV
    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    Jhn 8:8 KJV
    And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    Jhn 8:9 KJV
    And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    Jhn 8:10 KJV
    When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    Jhn 8:11 KJV
    She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: GO AND SIN NO MORE.

  255. Jordan Shepherd Mar 4th 2013

    Teshuva, thanks, and others, for wisdom and grace spoken here. Acceptance and love should never profane that which is Holy. I believe Carina hit the nail on the head: You must love Jesus more, even His word, than to remain in one’s sin. The world and it’s desires pass away, but He who does the will of the Lord lives forever (1 John 2:17). Do you love Jesus more than your lust for the self indulgent flesh and lust for material things? We all need deliverance from something: unforgiveness; pride; hypocrisy;rebellion; having a form of Godliness but denying the power of God.

    I recently heard someone say that 75 per cent of the world’s population will not make it into the Kingdom and 80 per of the so called Church is heading towards hell. Did we preach to ourselves as often as we preached to others? Oh how we needed wisdom yet we did not cry out for her, even though she cried out in the street. We live in an age where Christian parents cannot answer their children’s questions about God, nor are they able to bring them sound doctrine. Many Christians are immature in their faith and cannot give a reason for the “hope” they have. Can Christ be seen in us? When did you last hear your unsaved boss say: “At least you practice what you preach.” Have you ever heard anyone say: “You are one of the few people I know who live the Christian life.”

    I like the quote someone said above from Wesley: What you tolerate in one generation, you embrace in the next.” I also like what the Psalmist said (NIV): “If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction.” (Psalm 119:82). I love that. I love that because sometimes I need gentle correction or rebuke. Are we perishing in our affliction? Are we so struggling with the world, the flesh and the devil that we cannot overcome? To him who overcomes, he will give a crown of life. Do you love Him so much as to will to do His will? Let us all get rid of all malice and filthiness of the flesh and so help others to be free. Let us meditate on what is pure and noble, just and right, admirable … and the peace of God will be there. Always esteem others more highly than oneself. Humility will protect you from pride. A gay colleague pointed out to me that my overtaking other motorists in my motorbike on the left lane was illegal. He was a law student and qualified solicitor. I immediately and remorsefully confessed to him and all my colleagues with my head held low: “I am a lawbreaker.”

  256. L. Alex Smith Mar 4th 2013

    Lightining Storm: In the John 8 passage, when Jesus wrote on the ground and did not answer them the first time– (speculatively) it’s possible that He wrote out the Ten Commandments. The self-righteous Pharisees just stood there with their arms folded: “Yeah? I keep all those.” But the SECOND time he wrote– it’s possible, he wrote out the 7th: “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery…in thine heart, he who looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart” and they all began to shuffle away ashamedly. Not aloud, but each saying within themselves, “Uhhh, well, I’ve done that…who hasn’t? Uh oh.”
    Regarding what is needed from us about homosexuals: Not only the verses quoted (if they are unaware of them) WITH ANOINTING, With Conviction, and With LOVE… a pleading love that says, “I don’t want to see you perish in hell. I really care about you, please turn away from this and turn toward God! God has real love for you– not this false kind that is so destructive!”
    THEN, what is needed from us, is not just TELLING them, but actually MANIFESTING the Love of God to them! I don’t mean, a sweet little Precious Moments card type of love, I mean actually beaming Father’s heart through ourselves into them, His Spirit coming through our spirit, of a radiant fiery Love that feeds and fills the inner core of the person, and simultaneously (if they can actually receive it and Face God) burns and melts any resistance (this of course takes their Repentance on their part).
    I’ve read that almost ALL homosexuals have had problems with their fathers, or the lack of fathers. II Corinthians 7:1 follows from the end of Chapt. 6, where GOD promises that He will be a Father to us– “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh AND SPIRIT (including the homosexual demons) perfecting holiness in the Fear of God.” If they are willing to be cleansed, let us be the ones to manifest the Father, and the heart of the Father to them– that was lacking in their early life!
    The ancient prophet Malachi wrote that in the last days, God would pour out His spirit and power of Elijah. This was partially fulfilled in John the Baptist, the Fore-Runner… but there is an End Time application. He concludes the prophecy with the words, “to turn the hearts of the children unto the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers unto the children, lest I (God) come and smite the earth with a curse.” END OF OLD TESTAMENT, last words from YHWH for 400 years !!! Pay Heed !!!
    Now in our time, there has been a plethora like never before, of fatherless households, with the advent of the so-called “sexual revolution” resulting in single mothers (fornication, mostly). This in turn has given birth to a vast rise in the homosexual sins. They are not born that way, they are recruited; but often by trying to fulfill that Love from a Father that was lacking!
    NOW, God wants to address not only the SIN– but the lack of Fathering…if WE will allow Him to work in us the Father’s heart, to verily MANIFEST the presence of God, both in His Holiness, and as the Father (not just a theological term, but in REALITY).
    Can we Mourn for sin?
    Can we preach the Word with Conviction, Anointing AND LOVE?
    Can we manifest the Spirit of God coming through us, to the ones that we are trying to reach?
    Can we become so close to God, that we radiate His very presence, His Fatherhood, that will fill people’s lives internally with the Real Love that was lacking?
    Can we give them what they really need, and perhaps don’t even realise that they want?
    Let us be the ones that are that close to God, that the words of Jesus will be made reality in our lives as we are ONE with Jesus– “He who has seen me, has seen the Father.” (I don’t mean that we become God/s, I mean that we Manifest Him because He dwells in us, and should be coming through us).

  257. That was beautiful L. Alex, I was blessed by your response, May it be so of me Lord, May it be so of all of us in Your Church, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  258. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    So sticks and stones hurt worse than REJECTION AND WORDS?

    Oh that’s right, you are not rejecting homosexuals…you’re just not allowing them to come into your church building.

    Ok…then start inviting them into your homes at the dinner table, since the church building is too HOLY for sinners to enter!

    And the comment about the Apostles not talking about Jesus’ Love for sinners is astounding! The epistles not talking about Love!

    What in the world are the GREATEST COMMANDMENTS?

    Absolutely astounding!

    And it has been said before, many times, God deals with the people who claim to be His Followers DIFFERENTLY then He deals with those who do not KNOW Him or claim to KNOW Him.

    The Judgments of God are HARSHER on those who are claiming to be His Followers and yet do not FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS.

    I totally agree with the Father on that one.

  259. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    AMEN!! L.Alex Smith…….that is exactly what Jesus and the Apostles teach.

    Setting our own house in order is talking about YOUR OWN TEMPLE…….You are the TEMPLE….You are carrying the ARK OF THE COVENANT ; THE PRESENCE OF GOD WITHIN YOU.

    God doesn’t live in a building. God isn’t waiting for a bunch of people to gather together before He shows up!

  260. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    The TEMPLE is to be PURE AND HOLY AND SANCTIFIED……that is YOU, NOT some building.

  261. Richard Savage Mar 4th 2013

    Should not Buckingham’s defence be in what he has already written and not in what he intended us to understand from a prior preaching session? Preaching? Doubtful.

    The pity to me is he was once a friend of Derek Prince, often sat at table etc., and now this man stands in defiance of Princes’ teaching on this matter.

    Yet another famous name in the trash can, I guess.

  262. watchful Mar 4th 2013

    It’s really sad that the whole point of these threads seems to have been obscured and lost to some. The falling away…… age spirit that has infiltrated both the church and the world…….antichrist…….so yes, let’s make sure our house is in order and that spirit has not entered the Holy Place of our lives. Well, I’m grateful for what the Lord has taught me and helped me to discern, I only had bits and pieces before, and He was just beginning to show me, but now it is much more complete and clear.

    Miss bridgewater has been speaking about the transferring of spirits going on in many churches through the laying on of hands (and I would add “soaking”), and randall has been warning extensively about this new age end-time delusion. I myself had become aware of transferring of spirits occurring in the health care professions, and patients don’t even know when someone is doing it to them….as some have been saying, the new age spirit seems to be everywhere now in both the secular and Christian religious world, media and education, many government leaders are practising new agers, just about everyone is doing yoga, going to spas, having massages by Reiki practioners, etc, and I even see it reflected in home decorating………most importantly it has dramatically changed how people think in this generation. Well, for who has eyes to see and ears to hear, thank you Lord for taking the lid off this.

  263. Lightning Storm Mar 5th 2013

    The Ages have come and gone. There is always an old age and there is always an entering into a NEW AGE.

    There’s been the Stone Age; Bronze Age; Iron Age;the Age of Empires; Dark Ages; the Age of Exploration; the Renaissance; the Middles Ages; Industrial Age; Space Age.

    God has a timeline and we had better be hearing His Voice and lining up with His Will daily or we will be “left behind” in the dust of His stampeding Kingdom.

  264. watchful Mar 6th 2013

    …yes Lightning Storm, and I hear His voice warning that both the church and the world are falling to the demonic counterfeit of HIS new age. It’s important that we discern it…

  265. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    Religion and the world ARE the counterfeit. They are the Kingdom of Darkness in which all people reside in.

    There is no “new” counterfeit; There is no “new:” falling.

    It was a done deal in the Garden. The FALL happened in the Garden when Satan offered a counterfeit kingdom with a counterfeit Savior and a counterfeit religion.

    The world did not ARISE OUT of the kingdom of darkness at any time since then….so how can YOU FALL FROM THE HIGH PLACE OR HOW CAN YOU FALL FROM THE LIGHT, WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT IN THE DARKNESS?

    Those who are born again still have darkness within their souls. Only as the Holy Spirit purifies our souls does the LIGHT OF GOD slowly increase within us from glory to glory.

    So if people do not come to ABSOLUTE SURRENDER to the Fire of God, then their souls remain in darkness and they have no understanding of the things of God and they do NOT hear the inner AUDIBLE voice of God within them.


  266. watchful Mar 6th 2013

    sorry Enquirer, our posts crossed and I went away from the computer…….. many people get blocked from time to time or their comments taken down for one reason or another, so I’m pretty sure that you aren’t being discriminated against because of sexual orientation, if that’s what you mean, and if that applies. I can’t really comment further than that because I didn’t see your comments that had been disallowed….you don’t seem to be barred/blocked though, since you are here..?

  267. watchful Mar 6th 2013

    Lightning Storm – That’s just it though, it’s the CHURCH that is falling away…how can you not see that His glory is departing?…And that the house is therefore being left DESOLATE? I don’t remember saying that this is a new counterfeit…..I guess you wouldn’t agree then that this is more of a renewed manifestation, and it is going global…. I’ve been blown away by the accuracy of what I’ve been reading in the scriptures lately speaking of these things….might post some in the morning if the Lord is willing…..If the Lamb of God heard the Father’s voice and saw what the Father was doing then I guess His little lambs can too.