PASTORING – MOST STRESSFUL JOB?? – The Statistics

ANDREW’s NOTE: If you talk to most pastors, you will find that they went into ministry with good motives – not merely for money or a “career”, but because of a heartfelt desire to serve the Lord. Why then has it become one of the most stressful tasks on the planet for so many? Your comments would be appreciated, my friends. Below are the sad facts-


PASTOR STRESS STATISTICS
by Bill Gaultiere

Pastor stress today is enormous. The expectations that people
put on their pastors today — and that pastors put on
themselves! — are debilitating. Everywhere pastors go they are
expected to be “on” — ready to give stellar leadership, unending
compassion, an inspiring message, anointed prayer, or words of
encouragement.

Yet, like anyone else — perhaps more so because of the nature
of their work and the expectations people have for them —
may become overstressed, depressed, or caught in compulsive
and sinful behavior. Or they may find themselves feeling
spiritually dry, tired of ministry, angry at God, stuck in their
spiritual life, or burned out.

In a Schaeffer Institute study of 1,050 Reformed and Evangelical
pastors every pastor said they had a colleague or seminary friend
who had left their ministry because of burnout, church conflict,
or moral failure. All 1,050 pastors had at least one fallen
comrade!

Statistics on Pastors’ Ministry Stress:

• 75% report being “extremely stressed” or “highly stressed” (1)
• 90% work between 55 to 75 hours per week (2)
• 90% feel fatigued and worn out every week (1)
• 70% say they’re grossly underpaid (2)
• 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once
a month (1)
• 78% were forced to resign and 63% at least twice, most
commonly because of church conflict (1)
• 80% will not be in ministry ten years later and only a fraction
make it a lifelong career (1)
• 100% of 1,050 Reformed and Evangelical pastors had a
colleague who had left the ministry because of burnout,
church conflict, or moral failure (2)
• 91% have experienced some form of burnout in ministry and
18% say they are “fried to a crisp right now”

Statistics on Pastors’ Emotional Health, Family, and Morality

It’s particularly disturbing to see how much pastors are struggling
with emotional pain, family problems, loving well, and moral failures:

• 70% say they have a lower self-esteem now than when they
entered ministry (1)
• 70% constantly fight depression (2)
• 50% feel so discouraged that they would leave their ministry if
they could, but can’t find another job (2)
• 80% believe their pastoral ministry has negatively affected their
families and 33% said it was an outright hazard (1)
• 80% of ministry spouses feel left out and unappreciated in their
church (2)
• 77% feel they do not have a good marriage (2)
• 41% display anger problems in marriage (reported by the
spouse) (3)
• 38% are divorced or divorcing (1)
• 50% admit to using pornography and 37% report inappropriate
sexual behavior with someone in the church (1)

Statistics on Pastors’ Lack of Soul Care and Training

But ministry stress alone does not explain why pastors burnout
emotionally or blow out morally. Other statistics suggest that
many pastors struggle with “professionalizing” their spiritual
lives and failing to care for their own souls under God:

• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend (1)
• 50% do not meet regularly with an accountability person or
group (6)
• 72% only study the Bible when preparing for sermons or
lessons (1)
• 21% spend less than 15 minutes a day in prayer — the average
is 39 minutes per day (4)
• 16% are “very satisfied” with their prayer life, 47% are “somewhat
satisfied”, and 37% are either “somewhat dissatisfied” or “very
dissatisfied” (spending more time in quiet prayer or listening to
God versus making requests was correlated with higher
satisfaction) (4)
• 44% of pastors do not take a regular day off
• 31% do not exercise at all, while 37% exercise at least three or
four days a week as recommended
• 90% say they have not received adequate training to meet the
demands of ministry (2)
• 85% have never taken a Sabbatical.

Sources of Research Studies and Statistics on Pastors:

All these surveys are of Protestant pastors from a variety of
denominations in America: (1) David Ross and Rick Blackmon’s
“Soul Care for Servants” workshop reported the results of their
Fuller Institute of Church Growth research study in 1991 and
other surveys in 2005 and 2006. (2) Francis A Schaeffer Institute
of Church Leadership Development research studies in 1998 and
2006. (3) Leadership Magazine’s research for their article on
“Marriage Problems Pastors Face,” Fall 1992 issue. (4) Grey
Matter Research, 2005 scientific study of pastors from every
city in America. (5) Pastors at Greater Risk by H.B. London and
Neil B. Wiseman, Regal Books, 2003. (6) Focus on the Family
2009 survey of 2,000 pastors. (7) Leadership Journal poll of readers, 2013.

-Article Source-

http://www.soulshepherding.org/2009/11/pastors-under-stress/

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 9th, 2014 at 9:28 am.

132 comments

132 Replies

  1. Alec Swanepoel Oct 9th 2014

    Think the 2 main reasons for this:
    1) Did the pastors followed Jesus’s instruction to stay en Jerusalem / in the upper room, untill empowered by the Holy Spirit, before going into the ministry
    2) Did they really die to self – and live no more – but Christ through them………….

    Blessings

  2. Gerard Oct 9th 2014

    Maybe part of the problem is that pastoral roles are now seen as professions rather than a ministry.
    Many people have the ministry, so recognising and delegating may help pastors alleviate these issues.

  3. I believe it is because the church is not operating as it should be. Why should all these things be left to one person. Where is the body in section? In the small home church situation one has a psalm, a word of encouragement, practices hospitality, etc.

  4. In Acts 6 we read a very interesting statement made by the apostles of Christ Jesus. God gave them wisdom to answer the serious matter before them.
    The assembly of believers were insrtucted to select seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost, and wsidom, and then the apostles would appoint them to ‘serve tables’.
    The apsotles then added, “BUT WE WILL GIVE OURSELVES CONTINUA;LLY TO PRAYER, AND THE MINISTRY OF THE WORD.”

    If the God appointed men would follow this simple pattern, instead of becoming adminstrators, and programme managers, and counsellors, and business managers, etc, etc, the issue of burnout would not be an issue. How much of that is gratifying to the flesh?

    Jesus said be anxious for nothing. This includes pastors, ministers.
    The problem is that even godly men are sucked in to moulds of their own fleshly design, and of others which God never intended them to be involved with.

    Jesus told Peter on the night of His arrest, “Watch and pray lest you enter into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Later He asked Peter, “Could you not watch with me ONE hour?” (I’ll pray for three hours; you pray for one)

    Men who do not pray much fail much.
    I know this from experience.

    Jesus was never “burntout”. Why?? Because He only did and said what His Father wanted Him to do and say. He refused to fulfill the expectations others put on Him, even His own disciples..
    Peter in His epistle says that Jesus Christ left us an example that we should – ought to – must walk in His steps.
    Jesus rested in His Father’s presence. Why don’t we do that? We have the same Holy Spirit…don’t we??

    Let’s get back to following JESUS Christ; while we can.
    Prayer, earnest, persistent intercession – hammering at Heaven’s door is the most important work we can do. Jesus did it. All other work issues out from that Let’s do it broithers.

  5. Marcus Oct 9th 2014

    Every time I see someone making a “wrong” decision that will lead them into chaos it breaks my heart. – That is the reason why I concider to leave the job.

  6. As a psstor’s wife and pastor myself one of our frustrations is having people who don’t partake in special teaching times we make availabable by brining in guest ministry to teach on particular issues. While there are many who are on fire for God others seem to never grow even after many years.

    I have often struggled feeling under appreciated by the congregation. That has been a battle I am overcoming with the Lord’s help, as He laid His very life down for all of us.

    We do have a day off everyweek and keep that to ourselves unless there is an emergency that arises such as a death or funeral. Sometimes we simply crash that day from exhaustion or we go off and spend some quality time together.

    A great frustration is people problems – between themselves or people being offended and not coming to speak with us or not being honest with us about what is bothering them. We are not difficult to approach as most have discovered and we do listen.

    I wouldn’t make it all without being consistent in spending private time with the Lord and deeply studying the Word every day. That is my sustenance!

  7. David Oct 9th 2014

    Its simple really, how may of them are actually called. You cant just be a pastor because you want to, if God has not appointed you then you should not be there. Its interesting in one part of the bible, when the disciples are complainign about all these people who are preaching the gosple

    Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
    Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
    Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

    Than in another place we get this,

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    I see far to many ” christians”, running ahead of Jesus, going where they shouldnt be, doing what they should not and expecting Him to bless them. If He has not sent you you should not be going, if you are not hearing from Him, than you should be seeking Him before you move. Dark days are ahead, no time for foolishness.

  8. I was some days ago in Sarajevo, Bosnia and now I’m in Podgorica, Montenegro to pray and evangelize. I visited churches, most of them have 20-30 people, some even only one-two families. The Pastors had never time to speak with me some words. Why they think, their job is stressfull? They don’t spend enough time with the Lord, they don’t teach people to be independent from them. Christians don’t need coaches and psychologist, and, and and. What we need is Jesus! If I explain people what to do and they don’t do that, the next time they come I musst say: excuse me I can’t help you!!! You musst learn to pray yourself, to fight yourself! If they leave, they leave. We keep christians like Babys…but they are adults.

  9. Willem Holdt Oct 9th 2014

    I have just started a small CHUCH, called SHEKINAH GLORY 5fm (5fold ministery. I took JESUS’ MESSAGE to the really poor people. Them being to poor to travel. My “motto” is…SHOW them JESUS. What an experience every Wednesday and Sunday. DELiVERANCE,HEALING, HOPE and JOY is the result through the HOLY SPIRIT. I’m working full-time as a hardware store manager. My bigest problem is finance…… How I would love to just feed and clothe these people in my congregation….. It breaks my heart.
    I read the message and the results…to many Don’t PRAY enough..to many Don’t ReAD the WORD enough, and the result is burnout.

  10. His Truth is marching on Oct 9th 2014

    Just for starters, when we have a clergy/laity division kind of system, the pastor tries to be everything that the entire Body of Christ is supposed to be…..of course it’s too much for one person and that isn’t at all what Jesus had in mind…..that is a church built by human hands, not His. In varying degrees, we have built institutions, not a Body. Now, I ask, how much can we expect His Spirit to really dwell in a house that HE didn’t build and so it isn’t really His?

  11. ColoradoRobert Oct 9th 2014

    Interesting article that I have heard before. I do not know what it would be like, but I bet it is very difficult dealing with people that expect so much from you. My walk might crumble also. I’m sure it is a position of constant testing more-so than what I have ever known.

  12. The reasons for burnout etc. are many but I have many pastors that come to me for counsel, usually very depressed and stressed. You see they don’t keep spiritually “tuned up” but show up at my door in crisis. They bring all of the reasons you stated in your article and many with issues they have never dealt with from childhood. The one man show we have made of pastor is one reason. It is neither scriptural or healthy for the Body. Everyone should have a part as a function of their equipping for ministry. Pastors, apostles, prophets and teachers should be establishing a model for congregations that adheres to this. The next reason is they react to people’s expectations of them rather than responding to the Holy Spirit. Jesus only did what he saw the Father doing. It is not about a congregation centered church; it is about a God centered congregation.

  13. Doug W. Oct 9th 2014

    The vast majority of Pastors today are not involved with The House of Israel, but are caught up in Churchianity or The House of Jacob. (Isaiah Chp 58).
    The job of all pastors is to direct the flock to the Great Shepard of our souls, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, my God and hopefully yours. There was no psstoral burnout in The Holy Bible, except perhaps in Elijah’s day with the priests of Jezabel.
    God Bless the righteous by faith, Amen.

  14. The Pastor has been the Mediator CEO. The big guy is called the
    Senior Pastor. That means “Chief” “Shepherd”- Last I checked in the Bible, that is Jesus Job! It’s not easy taking Jesus’ Job, it will burn you out.

  15. It is really worrying that 50 % of these pastors use pornography.Is it possible that so many true spirit filled God fearing christian pastors could do something like that ? 37% inappropriate sexual behavior!!

    I would like to challenge the accuracy and the source of these statistics.I think it would be very difficult for someone ,especially a pastor to admit to being guilty of these sins!

    However we must pray for all the saints -especially that they will operate from under the power of the Holy Spirit and that the Lord will equip them with everthing that is necessary to spread the Word.

  16. Laura Oct 9th 2014

    Reading through the survey I couldn’t help but think, “Pastor, welcome to the real world!”
    My husband and I have owned and operated a small contracting company for 40 years – the stress factor never ends – we can’t quit! I work with customers, subcontractors, attorneys, Title Companies, banks, and Realtors. At the age of 61 my husband continues to work 55+ hours a week on the job in sales as well as physical application, our phone rings at all hours… and we too are underpaid!

    In addition to our business, we were elders at our local church. We attended services on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings. We supported weekly men’s and women’s Bible studies and other special meetings and events. We did yard work, painted and cleaned. I volunteered at our local MOPS program and worked in the church office once a week paying bills.

    The sad part about it was our Pastor and his wife did not attend many special events or work days as they ‘needed family time’. He was all for sponsoring programs and events to ‘bring in the community’, but did not feel obligated to attend these functions! Rather the responsibility for ministry and hospitality fell mostly on the elders/deacons/members. After a time our Pastor was rarely available to the congregation at any time, he no longer had regular office hours, rather he conveniently ‘worked from home’.

    As an active, tithing church member we spent uncountable hours in ministry over and above our regular 55+ hour job. Is it too much to expect our Pastor and his wife to do the same?

    Pastor… grow up!

  17. Jonathan Stuart Oct 9th 2014

    How many are called but seminary did more harm than good? I was am called and the Lord allowed me to go to prison instead of seminary so He could teach me..yeah at the time awful but now I am thankful I never went because the Lord has been teaching. me all these years..also the death of self and baptisim in the Holy Ghost 100 percent needed..also the pastorate is a professional role now with wages student loans mortgages retirment..this is all ridiculous….church needs Holy Ghost revelations from Jesus tongues interpretive prohpecy..the five fold plus governments and helps how many true pastors would be happy to help feed the flock and let true apostles and prophets fulfill their roles? Some offices are made to take the heat better than others when a body is out of line..remember according to book of acts there are several apostles several prophets several evangelist several pastors and more than one teacher not to mention mature believers like stephen and Philip..the burden is the Lord’s but if we are not dead to the world full of the Holy Ghost with HIM leading we are a disfunctional family..breaks my heart honestly..I have been praying for years for a real church to be apart of..my family. has been people online like yourselfs Andrew.Darrin Smith and saints who are gone like Leonard Ravenhill..Smith Wigglesworth Charles Finney and so on. . I cry often to the Lord for his church and was part of the problem for a long time..now He comforts me and gives me hope..He said I will be part of a real church..I don’t know when or how..I don’t give up on the modern church I pray for them all..they are just doing it wrong.

  18. Darren Sargent Oct 9th 2014

    Will,

    I am afraid these stats have been around for years now. Any problems with their variacity would have surfaced by now. The fact that there is silence means we all know they are dreadfully true and may be just the tip of the iceberg.

    Pornography is not the worst issue here, neither is it inappropriate sexual behaviour . . . the Church is not where she should be and therefore the Glory due to His Name is diminished.

  19. God knows how long this will all go on. The truth that if you searched the scriptures you will not find what we today call a pastor. This one man show must come to an end. We have been called to live as a family ministering to one another and jointly reaching to a lost world. Most men and women titled pastor have been trapped or tricked into tacking on a load of responsibilities The Lord never called them to. And all of these buildings that are sucking dry the finances of the body is just outright un-scriptural. We have thousands of buildings that cost millions of dollars that get used 5 to 10 hours a week. While the world watches us immersed in building projects.

  20. Jonathan Stuart Oct 9th 2014

    It’s simple God’s standard is Holiness..this is achieved through the Holy Ghost..anything less isn’t church..when we fall. below this then comes all the programs and entertainment..like Leonard Ravenhill said..if I was a protestant Pope I would make every church stop services for a week of fasting and prayer..how many Pastors have the guts right now to stop the machine and say look this isn’t going on one more week until the Lord comes and moves us on so we are going. to fast and pray and break up our fallow ground until Jesus is Lord here again…how many got the guts to say the Lord came and took our candlestick we are Ichabod? We talk revival but in reality it’s not revival..it’s Christanity if it ain’t the book of Acts it ain’t church..if we meet the Lord’s requirements. he will do all according to His Word..He changes not and the standard is holiness unto the Lord.

  21. It’s very simple: it’s stressful because it is a) NOT God’s plan, but b) it is presented as if it IS God’s plan. Pastor is not a position or a job; it’s a gift. Yet tradition and pragmatism have conspired to create this CEO-like position called “pastor.” It’s unbiblical, so it SHOULD be stressful.

  22. Yes, these stats are startling, but really, as stated by at least 2 others above, the way we do “church” now is not what Jesus intended. The office of pastor is insanely pressured because of traditions of men that make the Word of none effect. The stats, to me, just simply scream, “the system is broken!”

    We are to edify one another, exhort one another, not sit there staring at the back of someone’s head while a handful of “qualified” ones feed us. This isn’t biblical in the least. Yes, the pastor’s office is one of undue pressure and stress but only because we have allowed it. Many in congregations want it this way so they can pass the buck and expect the “qualified” ones to do it all.

    There are no easy answers; this is the system we have now, but it just isn’t what it should be as illustrated in those stats. And the worst of it is that the whole clergy/laity system is an open invitation to abusive pastors that take complete control with no accountability. The whole system initially lends itself to idolatry, often encouraging people to seek the honor of men rather than the honor of God. And when these tendencies go to seed, it gets really ugly. You either end up with a nasty pit of codependency or a congregation of people all vying for control.

    Can you tell this is one of my bigger soap boxes?? After spending 12 years in an abusive church, my research has turned up lots of information that just simply shows how our concept of “church” is so very unbiblical. The system is broken and no man or woman should be under this kind of pressure in the first place. So many have the absolutely best of intentions and just go under in the process simply because the system drags them under. Mike is right- pastors are taking on Jesus’ job!

  23. Fanie Oct 9th 2014

    God wants OBEDIENCE, not sacrifice. God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him and the fruit of His Spirit is as stated in Gal 5:22 i.e. love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; If pastors do not experience it, the matter is simple – they live in disobedience somewhere – inwardly and / or in church matters.
    A person truly and fully obedient to God and to His Word, will bear these fruits – irrespective of circumstances.
    A spiritual and obedient man will never become a pastor as we know them these days because he will:
    1. will never “rule” over others Luke 22:26.
    2. will never let himself be called – “pastor, reverend, dominee, Father, teacher, rabbi, professor,” etc. Matt 23:7-11
    3. will never preach alone but will encourage all to preach / prophesy 1Cor 14. Pastors who preach alone or mainly and who do not encourage all to desire a word of prophesy as Paul did, are disobedient to God’s commands. 1Cor14:37
    4. will never take a post or position as pastor on grounds of his learning or training or degree or appointment for he knows, believes, accepts God hides his wisdom for the learned but reveals it to the babes, simple, honest, sincere, obedient. Spiritual wisdom NEVER comes from physical or mental abilities. Matt 11:25, 1Cor 1 & 2.
    5. knows that before God the LEAST is more important than him, the seemingly weaker are more necessary 1Co 12:22, GOD gives more honour to the one in need 1Cor 12:24. So he will never take a position to rule and speak alone in the body of Christ.
    6. knows that all who live godly shall be persecuted and through all the ages, it was through the church leaders, scribes and Pharisees. So he will never take such a position to speak alone, teach alone, rule alone for he himself knows and have experienced persecution through the leaders.
    7. knows what is highly esteemed by men is an abomination to God. Luke 16:15. To get a degree and be in charge of a large congregation is highly esteemed by men – and an abomination to God. The truly spiritual man will never follow that route and so become a pastor.
    8. believes the Scriptures that he can only become an overseer if he fulfils the Biblical prescripts as in 1Tim. 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-9, he can only teach salvation from all sin and holiness if he believes and has found it himself.
    These statistics and the pastors’ own lives and experiences prove that they indeed live in disobedience to God. However, their experiences are no different from any sinner on earth but pastors will be judged more severely.
    The solution for them and every sinner is also the same. It is only through the TRUTH of the cross and blood of Jesus that we are forgiven, cleansed, delivered and truly freed from all sin, justified, sanctified, made perfect, overcome Satan, etc.
    1Jn 3:6 “Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.” If we still sin, we do not yet know the TRUTH for the TRUTH would have set us free. If we are not free from all sin, we need to seek Jesus diligently and He alone gives it through the truth of His cross.

    .

  24. All this pastoral burnout and depression is indicative of the failure of the church system which was built wrong from the start. It was a system riddled with pagan rituals, man made ideology, and selective theology all tied in a so called Christian bundle. Jesus The Christ had little to do with the system set up by man’s hand. Christ’s church, His family of faith are His disciples who follow His examples. Where are those people today? Where are those churches? Church as we know it is a mirror of worldly wonder with a Jesus spin on it just like every other thing we call Christian that has bowed to the enemy’s temptations. How in the world can you call yourself a pastor and not be much given in prayer? It has been a progressive shift of Bible spouting with worldly glamour, business and social activities. Growing the numbers and getting bigger and more luxurious buildings take priority. Showplace cathedrals, expensive suits, and television exposure become goals more than leading souls toward salvation or helping saved souls suit up for spiritual battles. The system is broken…always has been. Was built on a faulty foundation when Constantine started it with his warped anti-Semitic doctrines. We are just now seeing the broken system coming to a head…perhaps the end as some say. I don’t know. The end of the church age would mean the end of this broken system but not the end of God’s plan or Christ’s Kingdom. The people of faith are the true church with or without this systemic failure we call church and Jesus The Christ is the divine Pastor of His followers and He don’t burn out.

  25. Darren,I understand and agree with you.Also with Simantov ,Joyce,Jonathan and others who seem to be on the same page with this issue.So what can we do about it?I suggest we go on our knees and pray the “Truth” for our brothers and sisters so they can be set free..Amen

  26. Penny Oct 9th 2014

    The early church met in homes, they did not have big buildings and large congregations. WE are the church so meeting with other believers, wherever that might be, is the church coming together.

    Rom 14 talks about the weaker brother who is concerned about not eating certain foods and how the stronger should care; but goes on to talk about the one believing one day a week is more important than the rest of the days.

    The trouble with the one day a week is that we have made it into a religious almost compulsory activity that Jesus never intended. It has become a man made religion with very few actually having a vibrant, passionate living relationship with Jesus. The other 6 days are equally important.

    In a group setting far more discussion can take place over the Word being taught and others with greater knowledge, experience in certain areas can help the leader out without him/her having to take responsibility for everyone and everything.

    Remember the early church met for fellowship, breaking of bread, prayers and the teaching. These are to take place often.

    The season of the Church is coming to an end as we move excitedly into the Kingdom end times. God is shaking His church and those who have a passion for Him will be His light, full of joy, compassion and love during the troubled times ahead. What a privilege to be chosen by Him to be alive and to be His for such a time as this!!

  27. Is this the prophecy that is being fore filled that was prophesy over three years, go to my FACE BOOK TIME LINE, JACK L. HERRINGTON, PROPHETIC OUTREACH MINISTRY AND READ THE PROPHECY

  28. I have a friend with a ministry specifically to “burned-out pastors.” He tells me that once a man comes up against and faces the truth about what it is that he’s been trying to do in the power of the flesh (and there is no way that one can take a “job” as “a pastor” without it being in the power of the flesh) and repents, he can find freedom and go on to serve God with joy and gladness, fulfilling all of his righteous desires to minister to people but drawing his “paycheck” from some other source.

  29. My experience has been that any Christian minister, whether apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher, shall come under pressure, not from the physical environment, itself, but from the enemy in the spiritual environment. Thus, one must look to the spiritual, rather than just the physical, to combat stress or other pressures. As I heard from Jesus, just this morning, “Relax and Rely.”

  30. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

  31. I don’t see anything in scripture that says one man is to lead a church. I believe the word pastor is only mentioned twice in the New Testament. But, we won’t have it God’s way. Didn’t the church meet in homes, some taught, some sang a psalm, some gave a testimony. Far cry for today’s spectator Christianity, where people sit and keep quiet while one man/person does all the talking.

    Sorry, but until people start doing things God’s way, and I don’t care what our traditions are, pastors are going to be burned out. They are out of line with Scripture and ought to figure out how God wants a church led.

    I’m very frustrated especially with the American church because it just outright ignores much of what the Word says and does it the way it has always done it or wants to do it and then complains when it doesn’t work. Get back to the Bible!!

  32. Could it be that so much of what we call the modern day “church” is really a product of good-intentioned “flesh”!

    The Word of God states that, “Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it;” (Ps 127:1)

    Also, Christians as a whole want to be spoon fed by their pastors instead of individually seeking the Lord to worship Him in “spirit and in truth”… or, in other words, worshipping God through rightly dividing the Word of Truth (scriptures) and prayer. It’s much easier to be “entertained” by Christian TV ministers, mega-churches and self-proclaimed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers!

    So, when millions of everyday Christians are “expecting” to be entertained by “God” (i.e. through their local pastor/teacher), of course the “burdens” are going to overwhelm the minister.

    The best thing a “minister” could do is to tell his “flock” to go home, open their Bibles, seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance through studying and rightly dividing the Word of Truth for themselves … and then, depend on God’s wonderful mercy and grace in order to obey what they’ve learned!

    If every Christian did that, then when they assembled together for “church”, they would have genuine fellowship “one with another” in the Lord … around His table instead of man’s.

    In this way, the entire assembly would be “fully equipped” to “bear one another’s burdens” instead of laying them all on the Pastor.

  33. Marie Oct 9th 2014

    So true. And yes, true also that pastors do start with the very best of intentions.

    I think it’s the world’s weight which is so heavy right now, as we see the day approaching. And too, maybe ‘church’ the way it’s become, has broken us all.

    Church is becoming a cult, institution, business, enterprise. Not in all churches, but in many, many pastors are pressed to follow the crowd and are being influenced by the peddlers who want big congregations, success, prestige and vain glory. Pastors are too busy to nurture their own children, wives. Workaholism has swept over many pastors, as they compete with the churches down the road. Pastors aren’t seeking the lost, their mission field is the church down the street, or christians who don’t embrace the newest fad doctrine. It’s like Coca-Cola and Pepsi companies, compete against one another, trying to outdo and improve their product.

    Jesus doesn’t need men to be His public relations crew. He is all and can’t be bought. If a pastor has a revelation, he should share and allow every one of his sheep the freedom to pursue this on their own, instead of turning a ‘revelation’ into a denomination. It eventually turns into a cult.

    I don’t know how church should really be, but the Lord is shaking us, showing us that it isn’t working the way it’s been. It’s time for the saints to leave the pews and stop serving the pastors and go out into the highways and byways. Pastors do not have to be stressed or burned out. The reason they are is because they want to follow the crowd, take on presbyter obligations or too many obligations, travel to cheerlead missionaries overseas, become a CEO instead of the shepherd of a small flock.

    When a pastor doesn’t know everyone’s name in his church, then it’s time for him to slow down. Pastors delegate all the harder work on their assistant pastors, and feel they have paid their dues, so they reward themselves by traveling to conferences, and seeking promotion. The saints clean their washrooms, vacuum, take care of the nurseries, clean the spit up and change the diapers, cook the meals for fellowship, plan fundraisers, mow the lawns, volunteer, and do the heavy-lifting while pastor acts like president of a corporation, where his name is on the door of his office. Our Lord Jesus is kind of pushed back in the shuffle. The world sees this and laughs.

    The right kind of stress would be the first church kind. Today’s stress is worldly leadership stress. First church in Acts stress was persecution, yet they were still thankful and pressing forward.

    If pastors didn’t try to gain members and pastor big churches and relied on a small flock, like a small flock relied on them, as a Body, that might have more power in their neighborhood. Everyone is vying for that big mission field where the grass is greener, when the mission field is right behind our back yard.

  34. “Showplace cathedrals, expensive suits, and television exposure become goals more than leading souls toward salvation or helping saved souls suit up for spiritual battles. The system is broken…always has been. Was built on a faulty foundation…” Thank you, Marlene!!!

    “There is no way that one can take a “job” as “a pastor” without it being in the power of the flesh.” Thank you Ben!!

    “I don’t see anything in scripture that says one man is to lead a church.” Thank you, Judy!!

    “If every Christian did that, then when they assembled together for “church”, they would have genuine fellowship “one with another” in the Lord … around His table instead of man’s.” Thank you, Tim!!

    Well said, all.

  35. Bob Macias Oct 9th 2014

    First off, the role of the pastor in the modern church can’t be supported by scripture. The leadership of the Body was meant ot be shared in unity and accountability to others. The CEO, Top Down, structure eliminates the ability of the Body to fulfil the “one anothers” throught the Scripture.

    We expect the pastor to be the “be all, do all” in regards to the ministry. This cripples the body to spectator membership and non-responsibility to the well being of those we sit next to in the pew.

    We see in the book of Acts that the Apostles and Elders (plural) were responsibility for sound doctrine and discipline. Not one person carrying the weight of the congregation alone.

    The other issue is that we expect our Pastors not to have personal short commings. As though they are immune to the stresses, temptations and limitations of their enviroment. They haven’t been given the permission to share, to be transparent, depend on others for encouragement and accountability. We have isolated them from us and others who could impart the Christ that is in all of us to them.

    Christ is the Head of the Body, not the pastor.

  36. James Oct 9th 2014

    I know of pastors in my area who have left the ministry. Some due to health problems and church conflict. Some due to being placed and accepting a position they were not ready for. Some with only a denominational teaching, leaving out many situations one will face when dealing with people. Some thought it would be an easy short hour job, surprise, surprise. Some thought it would be a popular position.

  37. Marie Oct 9th 2014

    I recall a pastor who had a music ministry. He and his wife sang beautifully and played piano. One could sense they truly loved the Lord by the way they sang and worshipped and we could feel the presence of the Lord. This young pastor also had a youth ministry. When other churches were having special meetings, he and his wife were always invited to start the service with music. And then the host pastor would preach. By the time the host pastor would preach, the Holy Spirit was felt and all were humbled and drawn to the sermon.

    So, this young couple had a true ministry; yet he decided to quit this ministry and pursue being a pastor himself, which led him years later to pastor a church, where he started teaching the Purpose Driven-Life agenda. Upon visiting this church years later, I observed the music ministry team were excellent professional musicians and singers, leading us into worship; there was a sense I got (and maybe it was just me), but that the worship lacked an anointing, that so many of us have felt before. This young pastor would preach and there was little conviction power in his preaching, as there was more legalism and his show of disappointment in his church that they didn’t do their part. It may be he truly felt called to preach. I pray that this church with this pastor receive a great revival, and I know he is an honest seeker, but, it shows that we sometimes push our talent away, where God intended us to be, and pursue another ministry, simply because it’s a carnal challenge.

    And to note, this young pastor travels and seems burnt out, and delegates much to his staff. We wonder why they burn out, but maybe if they would stay focused on what God first gave them, and stop picking at ministrations like a buffet, they would be so much more effective.

    Has this sort of thing happened to others?

  38. Here’s a test: The church is comprised of all of those blood-bought born-again children of God who are trusting in Jesus and are going heaven when they die, right? So when one is born again, he is then, at that moment in time, a member of the church, right? Now, most institutional “churches” have a process whereby one may “join” their local “church.” As it is not possible for one man to fully know the heart of another, is it possible for somebody to “join” a local “church” and yet not be a part of THE church? Yes, it is. So what does that make the local institution calling itself “church”? It is not THE church, nor can it be presumed to be a subset or local manifestation of THE church. It is something else, something man-made. That doesn’t necessarily make it bad. Keep reading …

    One can be a gifted speaker or writer or counselor or leader and can lead God’s people to follow God and obey His Word, AND one can be paid to do so. And why not? Plenty of people do. Joel Osteen gives encouraging speeches. John Maxwell gave up the regular “church pulpit” to inspire people to aspire to leadership. And they are handsomely paid. And they may well be part of THE church. (God knows their hearts.)

    The problem arises when Christian people are given commands, as if from the mouth of God, that we are to be “in church” on Sunday, that God’s Word teaches us that we are to put our “tithes” and “offerings” into the “offering plate,” that we are to sit and listen to a “sermon” “preached” by “a pastor” who has authority given to him by God himself, and that we are, thus, to obey. Etc., etc., etc. But none of this is by biblical command; all of it – ALL of it – is by tradition that was developed – AFTER the writing of the New Testament – BY MEN.

    So … BE a gifted speaker or writer or counselor or leader and lead God’s people to follow God and obey His Word AND be paid to do so! Great! Make millions! Just don’t pretend that you do so with the AUTHORITY of God behind you as “a pastor” after the commands and patterns of the New Testament. Because if you do, you’re lying … and your anxiety and stress are well earned.

    But if you’re an elder (you’ve first got gray hair and grandchildren [Ben’s interpretation, no chapter and verse citable]), one who is truly led by the spirit of God, who leads from the back or the middle of the pack like a true shepherd, who didn’t seek out a job, who isn’t acting as a CEO of a corporate institution, who doesn’t presume to read into God’s Word the traditions of men, where are you? … because I want to meet you.

  39. Michael Kemp Oct 9th 2014

    Jesus was never hurried, worried or flurried even though he was concerned with the world’s salvation. He constantly referred back to His Father. This is surely the remedy for stress in all situations. Moreover, pastors, indeed all in Christian ministry, need to be people of the Book, not just using scripture for ministry but to nourish their own spirit and soul. Finally, Jesus had an acute sense of timing; this comes out time and again in John’s gospel especially -He knew in His spirit when to be active and when to rest, when to act and when to refrain from acting. This all indicates that the cure for stress is to keep in step with the Spirit. Just a few thoughts which I hope may be helpful.

  40. Jamie Oct 9th 2014

    The reason Pastors are stressed is because they follow a wrong paradigm. Why aren’t all elders and church body functioning instead of spectating. It’s ridiculous, like a one wheeled car.

  41. I agree with Lyn. The church is not meant to be a one-man operation. If it followed the New Testament pattern of each person being allowed to function in their God-given authority, the pastor would not be stressed.
    That brings up another problem: many churches do not know who is called into the five-fold ministry or the other ministries mentioned in Scripture, because they are not all Spirit-filled. Only some people speak in tongues in each of the so-called Pentecostal and Charismatic churches nowdays, which means there is a drift from NT principles and practice.

  42. I think burnout is so strong because of technology… cell phones and computers, TV and entertainment have taken us all from Jesus as first love. Many years ago pastors made house calls when there was truly a need. Now they are inundated with seemingly important ..calls, texts, Facebook messages, etc and are pressured to respond to everyone’s requests. Being pulled in so many directions by so many people would wear any of us out- how much more one whose life calling is to serve people. (ministry) With so much of the church in compromise, spiritually slothful, carnal and caught up with the pleasures of the world, it brings an increased workload to shepherds nowdays. Mature, obedient fruitful Christians do not demand or need so much of Pastor’s time and attention and do not drain him so much. The church needs revival. The church needs fruitfulness. The church needs to return to her first love.

  43. Perhaps if they were to fight the demons attacking them and the church they would not have the stress caused to them by the demons trying to destroy them, thier family, their work and the church they pastore

  44. I would further state, that unless a person has had a true repentance, is water baptized by immersion into the Name of the Lord, and filled with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues they are not IN the church.
    THIS is the pattern we see throughout all the Book of Acts.
    The term “church” has become almost a “strawman” term, which refers to anyone who says they believe in Jesus and who attends a service each week.

    The four Gospels all end on the death and resurrection of Christ. Until then, they were all under the Law even though Jesus lived and walked amongst them.
    Hebrews 9:17 tells it plainly.
    The CHURCH did not begin until AFTER His resurrection and then on the Day of Pentecost.
    After that day we see that every place people were converted in Acts, they were water baptized and spoke in tongues. Chapters 8, 10:44-48, 19:6 and 22:16.

    WHY bother about how the “church” should operate?
    Howabout we get all the people who attend church services IN the Church first?!
    Howabout we do like the Apostles did..if they found folks un-baptized, they straightaway baptized them (believers that is of course,) and if they found people who had not received the Holy Ghost evidenced by tongues, they would even make a trip all the way from Jerusalem to Samaria to lay hands on them, even though the people were ALL believers, had ALL been water baptized and were ALL meeting together. HOW DID THEY KNOW that these people had NOT received the Holy Ghost?
    They never spoke in tongues.
    (Simon saw something powerul occur when hands were laid on them in this case, and one can rightly deduce from the rest of Scripture that they all spoke in tongues.)
    A huge company of Gentiles heard the Gospel, believed and spoke in tongues, all were water baptized straightaway at Peters command.
    Paul met believers in Ephesus and asked them, “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?”
    He re-baptized them in water (as they had not been baptized for remission of sins only baptized unto repentance) then laid hands on them and they all spoke in tongues.

    The thing is there is the GIFT of tongues (I Cor 12) in Scripture which most reading this will know about, given to edify the CHURCH (when accompanied by interpretation;) this is separate and distinct from the tongues which every Believer should receive which God gives to edify the INDIVIDUAL.(I Cor 14:4)
    If tongues were only for SOME and not ALL then why would Paul say, “I want you ALL to speak with tongues?” (I Cor 14:5) (Yes, he goes on to mention that it is better to prophesy in church..but that is because this chapter is devoted to church meetings, how to have church.)
    If tongues were only One of the Gifts, then why oh why, do we not read in Acts where people all received the Holy Ghost, “Some spoke in tongues, others interpreted.” You will never see interpretation mentioned in these cases. And why do we not read “They were all filled with the Holy Ghost and some spoke in tongues, others gave a word of knowledge, others gave a word of wisdom, others did a miracle, ahealing and os on..” Why?
    Because tongues is ALWAYS the evidence of the Holy Ghost.

    WHY do we hide our heads in the sand from these truths?
    Is it for fear of excluding those who have not yet moved from the brasen altar yet (repentance) into the Holy of Holies (the baptism in the Spirit)?
    And just how ARE these precious believers going to move into the Holiest of Holies, past the laver of water (water baptism) and beyond, if we do not TEACH them?
    Don’t wait for the pastors to do it. They each have a mandate to cleave to their own church denominations stance on these matters, or they are out of a job (God bless them, not knocking them, just saying.)
    Am I saying that if a person doesn
    t speak in tongues that they are not saved?
    Not at all, but they will (and are having) have a very tough time trying to even perceive the Kingdom of God, much less be able to live the Biblical Christian life of holiness and power.

    Set fire to the strawman and establish just WHAT the church is first.

    Go back to the Book of Acts and search and see.

    I am tired almost to death of hearing the term “the church.” when I know full well it encompasses (in the minds of most) a bunch of mis-guided, mis-taught Believers who have never been filled with the Holy Ghost and often, never been baptized in water either.
    These were of paramount importance in the eyes of the Apostles if you care to read Acts. They should also be of paramount importance to us today.
    Until these needs are met, you cannot build the House.
    The foundational truths I have just mentioned are of the primary importance.
    Don’t wait for the pastors to teach them.
    Read in Scripture for yourselves and get these truths well and truly inculcated into your mind and heart, then do it yourself, then teach others the same.
    A man was in a shop I walked into the other day. We got talking. He is a Believer. I asked, “Do you speak in tongues?” He said, “Aah, isn’t that one of the gifts?”
    I showed him in the Bible where it is also for every Believer. I asked would he be willing to ask Jesus for this gift. he said, Yes.
    I prayed with him in the shop and he began speaking in tongues.
    Do this for all Believers, brothers and sisters/
    They need the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
    We all do.
    Most of you will disregard this article and go along with the flow of calling every Believer part of “the church.”
    But to those with an ear to hear, I write these words, desirous that maybe some of you might help your struggling brothers and sisters come into all the fulness that God desires for them.
    I told a firend (a leader in a church) yesterday that their special meeting coming up tomorrow where the non-Spirit filled pastor will present a new plan for church growth, will come to nothing unless he gets back to the Bible and Spirit filled himself and then teaches the truth so that all in that church, may be partakers.
    They want the numbers to grow, but many of them are spiritually unregenerate themselves!
    I told her it is rebellion to go ahead and establish your own plan without fulfilling Gods plan as in the Bible.
    There was a hesitant nod of agreement.
    I have a deep burden for believers not yet Spirit-filled and I long that “all the vessels in the house be filled.”

  45. An amendment: “A huge company of Gentiles heard the Gospel, believed and spoke in tongues, all were water baptized straightaway at Peters command.”
    I did not give the quote. it is Acts 10:44-48

  46. Julie Brantley Oct 9th 2014

    Pastor is but one of the five-fold ministry gifts …
    And when God calls us He equips us –
    Pastor = Undershepherd. I would not go traveling with any driver who had not first checked road conditions, etc. A good shepherd checks the weather, the forecast, the food supply and maintains his fences in good safe order.
    We have got to get the mind of the Lord – and encourage brethren to walk in the path God has laid out for them – nothing more and nothing less. They should no know finances, church cleaning, etc., but someone with the gift of administration should be carrying that load.
    Any Christian PERIOD should be starting out their day tuning in their radio/receiver to the Lord’s voice and fueling up.
    ‘Pastor’ is NOT a job – its a High Calling from a Holy God –

  47. Martin Oct 9th 2014

    These statistics are sad but not surprising. The ministry I have been involved in has a special programme for ‘burnt-out’ pastors of whom there are too many but surprisingly the culture does not allow them to admit it lest they lose their respect and position. Some comments above, and I haven’t read them all, can appear somewhat trite. Even when the Lord calls people into ministry it doesn’t stop them getting into difficulties down the road. Vicar schools, seminaries, Bible Colleges etc do not necessarily train people to be pastors. Sometimes pastors can fall under the unrealistic ‘expectations’ of those they are serving. Three pieces of advice: none of us is indispensable and even Jesus slept at night; put down boundaries particularly around time off and family and make sure the ‘church’ knows them; learn to say “NO” – nicely!

  48. Jonathan Stuart Oct 9th 2014

    I just watched that Torben sondergaard video..thats what I think we all need to be doing soon! I wept when I watched that video the Holy Ghost confirming in my spirit..it has been hard all these years I have lived in various on fire and back slidden states..not blaming because it is my fault but it was a struggle not being able to find a “true” church to attend or be discipled at..looking back I now know why because there are few..I was angry for a long time and backslidden but I never stopped hoping and wondering what would happen to “true” christ followers..I have been swept up and away with the end of the world and fear of man for a long time..but not to long ago I had enough! I knew better and I said thats it I am seeking the Lord and repenting and obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ no matter what..and God has been faithful and merciful to me he has cleansed me and come to me and helped me..now I have no feear of man and am at peace..now I pray daily and love the Lord fiercely again..I still am making restitution and making apoologies and ammends to those I have hurt and robbed over the years..but i am hopeful and faith filled waiting on the Lord and believeing for a great reformation awakening and revival! I am no longer angry at my brethren I grieve and pray for the Lords church..Its amazing what love and change Jesus will bring to your heart when He gives you His point of view..children who have gone astray children who have lost the way..I love them because He loves them and i pray for you all..
    if anyone would ever like to talk email me [email protected] (no really) I am no body and nothing but I love Jesus I have been through it all and if I can pray with for or encourage you i will..thank you all for being my brothers and sisters in the Lord all Glory to Him for saving us amen.

  49. Jonathan Stuart Oct 9th 2014

    I agree Linda..dont forget prayer tongues and singing in tongues..Tongues 1 sign of baptisim with Holy Ghost..tongues 2 tongues in the assembly to be interperted..tongues 3 prayer tongues not to be interperted..tongues 4 singing in tongues similar to prayer tongues for adoration and worship.

  50. Ken Pratt Oct 9th 2014

    The fourth comment above by Ian, nailed it dead on.

    Ken

  51. Jim Ray Oct 9th 2014

    I have been bi-vocational for 35 years. I have ‘pastored’ in all levels with various Church leadership structures and styles (single pastorate, team ministry, eldership, etc.). I reiterate what some others have alluded to. Every believer is a minister and should be equipped by the 5-fold to minister in their sphere of influence. We want people to come on Sunday for the church’s programs instead of equipping the Church for their Monday mission. Every believer’s vocation is to follow Jesus and the avocation (even on a church’s payroll) is how God may be providing to accomplish the first calling. Paul told the leadership of the various congregations in Ephesus to be an example by providing for the needs of others instead of expecting to be provided for by others. Finally, two thoughts. You can’t serve God and money at the same time. We preach and teach with or without monetary reimbursement. Second, every believer is a priest and/or king in the Kingdom of God and needs to be equipped to function at that level.

  52. Andrew T. Oct 9th 2014

    To me the answer is simple and the reason i have given up on church membership after 50 years.
    The stress comes when pastors begin to view themselves as a substitute for god instead of pointing others to God.
    Pointing is not stressful at all.
    Last church I belonged to the Pastor was preaching that since he was Pastor, HE was the shepherd and we were the sheep and we should obeh HIM. If you don’t know why this is wrong you have missed it also. Christ died so that we could have a relationship with God with Christ as our leader through the holy Spirit. Modern church of all denominations whether protestant or catholic worship the teaching of Paul. The Catholics just added the roman emperors and many layers of “saints” on top of the Pharisee teaching of Paul. Everything Paul taught about church was opposite (anti) Christ. My Saviour is Yahoshua. Paul never quoted Chrise even once and has been worshipped in 2/3 of the New Testament. Time for those that can still see to go back to Christ.

  53. I have been ordained a non paid pastor last year so I am at the begining of my ministry but our senior leadership has put one main focus for all ministry in our church, and that is hearing from God about your calling. I prayed for my calling for 12 years before God spoke to me and confirmed I was to be a pastor. Sadly the Body has a process nowadays of people giving it a go or churches putting an add in the paper. This is totally wrong, pastors are ordained by God there should be no “dream a dream, or “I’m thinking about going to a seminary” All that does is put people in leadership that God never pre-ordained for them to be in. Then it is not surprising when they stand down, retire, leave the ministry and get stressed to the point of breaking.

    ” went into ministry with good motives” “heartfelt desire to serve the Lord.”

    These are common sentiments in the body but they are potentially dangerous. Our “desires and motives” are no substitute to hearing from God and being ordained. David didn’t become King because he had good intentions for the people israel, he became king because Samuel, God’s prophet, anointed him! We must encourage men and woman to seek God for their calling, and not make a decision until he has spoken directly. I waited 12 years, but now I feel rock solid in my identity in the body.

    lastly “70% do not have someone they consider a close friend (1)” maybe their answer should be Jesus? who was John the baptist’s close friend can’t remember him having one, he was on his own in the wilderness. Who is closer than a brother? when all else leave you who is the one who will never leave you?

  54. Klem Kididdlehoffer Oct 9th 2014

    If they think it’s bad being a pastor, 1)try ANOTHER role in the body (and see what that’s like) or 2) get a secular job where it’s all just wonderful.

    Paul had a secular job, wrote 2/3 of the NT and got [email protected] from EVERYBODY…. things is tough all over,,, and about to get a lot worse…if you can’t handle this endtime peacetime respite, you are going to go down miserably in the days to come. Join the ministry hordes who think it’s their “calling” to find fault with everyone else’s ministry and methods and theology- of course, they have no results of their own to prove they are right, they just know what’s wrong with everyone else……… repent, repent, repent, repent, and again they say, repent,,,,, ok,,, and then what? got anything else? any “life” after the cross, or just an endless sit there in the mud self flagellating like in the dark ages…. ? this site confuses me…. do you people have any GOOD and life generating results? or are you just sorry all the time for what u did, what u didnt do, and what you are going to fail to do? like hanging on for dear life to the cross as a mast on a sinking ship,,,but do you produce anything besides give speeches about how bad it all is in the flesh? we KNOW that,,,, got anything else???

  55. Andrew T. Oct 9th 2014

    Christ died to set us free, not make us slaves to a different earthly master. That is what pastors believe they are. Those that are not for Christ are against him. Pastors teach paul the pharisee and use the heirarchy of the pharisee or pastors would only exist as servants to Christ. Pastors serve committees, councils, and boards instead of christ. If they get past that they serve Paul. Not even all start out meaning well. Those from the “word faith” movement spent their entire careers deceiving theselves and others. You shall know them by their works….one whom the Son sets free is free indeed. By turning to Christ alone I have become free indeed!! There is a church but it isn’t modeled after the heirarchy of the pharisees. The Church is made of those that have found Christ and denied human leaders.

  56. Grant B. Oct 9th 2014

    The root problem is that Christianity and all its local churches operate from within a framework of old covenant era practices. Only when new covenant life is engaged does ministry accomplish what Jesus intended it to. A key failure in the local church structure is the old covenant hierarchical model it employs. A new covenant church has just one head – Jesus. New covenant believers are kingdom focussed not church focussed because we were never instructed to plant or build churches. Jesus said He would build His church. Our responsibility is to preach the gospel of the kingdom. Once we transition from an old covenant era model to a new covenant era model and actually do only those things we were instructed to do, everyone of the problems those pastors experienced will be gone.

  57. Andrew Oct 9th 2014

    ANDREW STROM REPLIES:

    I agree that the “one man” model is unbiblical.

    But I do not agree with “no real leaders”.

    The NT church had very strong leaders with real authority under Christ. They were called apostles and elders, etc.

    I have seen again and again the huge difference that true anointed leaders make. David Wilkerson was a good example. Do you want to throw him out too?

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  58. Allan Oct 9th 2014

    I have written this comment,prior to reading in this article.
    I have ministered in 4 nations & have found the following in each country, to varying degrees.
    I suffered burn out while pastoring in New Zealand & while some of the problem could be laid at the stress of the job, a small proportion came from Church Hierachy.
    Secondly. Some of the blame for burn out is the fact that pastors.need to understand, that they need to TRAIN UP people within their congregations to be able to minister, counsel, teach, preach etc. It has never been God’s intent that the pastor do everything. We have to train the people of the Lord into where their roll – gifting fits at the coal face of the kingdoms work . This is a very short explanation of what I am encouraging. When people are taught where they fit in the kingdoms work, it will help prevent boredom & church hoping!! Some people can’t be trained – don’t want to be trained – refuse training. SORRY – that’s a part of what us shepherds need to recognise & accept. Jesus is our pattern. He chose the deciples – he taught them – He showed them how to minister & then He sent them. We don’t have to re-invent Christianity!!! Jesus set the pattern – simply follow it. With love.

  59. The problems involved with “pastor” burnout deeply saddens my heart. In large measure this is due to a none Biblical ministry structure, creating a man made and accepted overload of those involved. Believing and working towards a correct structure and ministry functions solves this to a large degree. God or His Word have not changed. We are in error when we deviate from scriptural directives, accepting wrongful man made structures.
    Apostle Paul accused all churches of being out of order, when they did not have a multiple eldership. He mandated the young apostle Titus to “set in order what is lacking in all churches” (Titus 1:5). Paul also told the elders of Ephesus what the responsibility of all elders was, both to “oversee and feed the flock”, a shared eldership ministry. These elders who Paul asked to meet with him potentially included the five Christ appointed callings (Acts 20:17, 28). We should learn how to discern these Christ appointed callings correctly.
    This probably would have included some elders who are “any man” elders as well (not o the five callings. (1 Tim. 3:1).
    In any case Paul did not and we should not ordain elders (bishops, overseers), who do not meet and strive for the maturities outlined, especially being hospitable and apt to teach.
    Observing this is a good start. Greater insight will include the entire body ministry, besides, deacons, helps, governments (1 Cor. 12:28). We have a presumptuous church when we ignore, holy instructions, “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one (EVERY ONE) of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying” (1 Cor. 14:26).
    We ignore holy directions and demean the believer body when we deny, “But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ; 16 from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part,(EACH PART) producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love (Eph. 4:15).
    This will not change until we humbly apply two truths. First, Christ is Lord of the church and we will do whatever He said per His Word, one being (including 1 Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:8, 11)
    Second, this will also not change until we humbly, in truth and reality apply, “Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves” (Phil. 2:3, 1 Pet. 5:5). With love to all.

  60. My view on this is the problem lies not in the ‘pastor’ but in the fact that pastor, elder and shepherd all have similar Greek root words, making them synonymous, or even identical, which leads me to the conclusion that leadership in the church should not be by a ‘Pastor’ but by several elders, or shepherds or pastors. Plurality is the rule, not a single leader. That poor fellow has so much to carry its no wonder he and in some cases she, is stressed out. I have an essay on this at http://christianessays.freeservers.com

  61. Andrew Oct 10th 2014

    Very good points, Richard.

    Above all, however, leadership needs to be CALLED and ANOINTED.

    This makes the most enormous difference also.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  62. The problem is that the ‘pastor and teacher’ are left standing along. Where are the other three doma gifts, Apostle, Prophet, and Evangelist given by Jesus to the Body of Christ for the “perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry”, it seems that they have been ignored, forgotten, sent off to another country, or simply rejected. Today’s Christianity is QUANITY over QUALITY. That is not how Jesus ministered. Jesus ‘fathered and taught’ the twelve, He also taught the seventy, but He only met the needs of the multitudes.

    In today’s world do denominations, Churches, Fellowships, etc., corporately represent the Body of Christ to the world or are they seen more as representing a dissected and section cadaver on a medical examiners table. Something that once representative had life but today are lifeless in and of themselves. For those who may be interested I address this subject in a book available on Amazon.com titled: Denominations: Are They Divisive or Divine Design

  63. Averyl Maxwell Oct 10th 2014

    True leaders create more leaders. They don’t take it all on themselves.

  64. Andrew Oct 10th 2014

    Well said, Averyl.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  65. Davida Oct 10th 2014

    Andrew we do have a leader, His name is Jesus, we also have a teacher, the Holy spirit and a father unlike any God Himself. we need no man but religion, church without us it would not exist. Its because men have no faith in God that they follow men its that simple, Church is not from God, the new one, go ask its important. I will neve5r be a pastor, dont want to be, will never be able to boast of “my works”. only His.

  66. Vanity of vanities. It is all vanity.

    God explained to me once that when Solomon wrote the book of proverbs he was a man that served God, and he was full of optimism and hope for the future. He was a happy man and reading between the lines you can see it.

    Solomon wrote Ecclesiastics after he got into magic. The occult. Sorcery. He went from an optimistic man to a burnt out miserable wreck. Getting into the occult was the ruin of him and it shows in his attitudes in Ecclesiastics.

    The church and the pastors have a reputation for being into the occult. It is a bit like their heroin. It is addictive, it is their treasure and it is also their ruin.

    They build Christian covens instead of houses of prayer and wallow in self pity like Solomon.

    My point is that the scripture says Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived, and the occult was the ruin of him. It is not surprising it is the ruin of the pastors too.

    On the bright side, no one can bring sorcery through the gates of The Holy City with them when The Lord establishes His kingdom on earth.

  67. Some very interesting comments.
    In my years of observation, the problem is sometimes pastors are remote, will not mix with other pastors, Live in isolation from other fellowships in the area, unless the believe precisely what they believe.

    If only ” evangelical” pastors would train others in their churches and fellowships, encourage the younger ones to preach, Also it would help the congregation if preaching was related to everyday living and real problems which people encounter.
    It is is said of Jesus that the common ( everyday) people heard Him gladly, What a brilliant tribute to a Pastor. Congregations should be able to share with their pastor. Pastoring can be a lonely position but it need not be so. Join in with the congregation and get to know them Even have some fun with them ! I agree with Averyl “True leaders create more leaders. They don’t take it all on themselves.”
    Moody gave these 10 points:
    Commitment
    Willingness to take risks
    Vision
    Sense of Holy Spirit
    High view of Scripture
    Christ-centered life
    Confidence in young people
    Teachability
    Humility
    Love for Souls

    Preach simply, sincerely and be led by The Holy Spirit, and then your preaching will meet ts needs of your people as God see the need ( which may be different from how the pastor sees the need.
    And please PRAY for your pastor, leaders, and their wives ( one each I hope :-)
    Pastor & people ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER

  68. Harvey Rosieur Oct 10th 2014

    ‘Unless the Lord builds the house they labour in vain who build it.’
    Guess what? We ignore God’s word and instead follow man-made traditions! Burn out? That is because God is not for it! The above postings list all the things wrong with it. Why don’t we stop it? The pastors do what they assume they have to do, or they take it upon themselves.
    We had the pattern of New Testament church in scripture, but along came the Roman Catholic Church and decided on a new form of religion in the 4th century .A compromise with pagan religion which has been in vogue ever since, with its buildings, elevated clergy, Sunday worship and its various religious form. We have followed that ever since.Its wrong, so why don’t we stop it and get things right? Is it pride? We have too much invested in it ?All that has been built up? Position? Money? Things which can and are being shaken! Praise God. He is setting us free from all that is holding us back.
    The great commission to all of us, is to make disciples of all nations. Not to plant churches. We do not need the great church structures to be doing what we should be doing , They are holding us back!.

  69. Andrew Oct 10th 2014

    I say again:

    I agree that the “one man” model is unbiblical.

    But I do not agree with “no real leaders”.

    The NT church had very strong leaders with real authority under Christ. They were called apostles and elders, etc.

    I have seen again and again the huge difference that true anointed leaders make. David Wilkerson was a good example. Do you want to throw him out too?

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  70. Davida Oct 10th 2014

    Andrew, cant you see, they have thrown God out of their schools, out of their homes, out of their courts, out of their governments out of their lives and finally out of their churches. We are not meant to teach men to preach, that is Gods job, its not our job to teach men how to evangelise it is Gods job, its not our job to send men into the field , its Gods job, we are not meant build temples to heaven, idols to men for men, you can only serve one master, men or God we must choose wisely. Remember the words spoken when the disciples had the Holy Ghost fall upon them,

    Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    Thats just it they where, but man has taken the new wine put it into an old wineskin(religion) and created Babylon, where their is nothing but confusion with so many voices.

  71. To Jonathan Stuart,
    Yes, all those are important, but to get Christians to at least believe in speaking in tongues as being the evidence of the Holy Ghost, for ALL believers, is like trying to push a donkey up a hill.
    I did not mean it as a full treatise on the subject.

    I maintain that if people were in the New Testament Book of Acts Church, (baptized in water and Spirit-filled) we would not have so many problems in “the church.”
    Many pastors are not even in the church.
    Possibly as many as 70% of Christians aren’t either.
    They are people who desire to please the Lord and have some degree of commitment, perhaps even been water baptized, but never been taken further.
    Never led into the Holiest of Holies.
    Never been taught that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.
    Then they are “beaten up” in sermons and articles all over the place for being “luke-warm,” which just makes them hurt and confused..when all along it is the so-called leaders of such places, who do not teach the basic foundations of water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.
    We don’t have many in the church today-not like back in the Book of Acts.
    You can have thousands of people gathered for a Christian rally, all clapping their hands and singing Gods praises and maybe only a small percentage of them in the church.
    The real church I mean. The Book of Acts Church.
    One dare not talk of this,(though I do,) because others say it is condemning them, or they assume one is suggesting they are going to hell. Not at all-in either case.
    One is just grieved knowing that there are so many people who desire to please the Lord and who are not taught right.
    But Christians are so used to believing that everyone who goes to church is IN the church, that my article on how to enter the church, will roll off them unheeded.

    But back to the main thrust of the article.
    I really could hardly care less if pastors suffer burn out.
    They have enough spiritual mentors among themselves to counsel them and pray them through if they will humble themselves to ask for and receive it.
    I am weary of the one-man band that church has become.
    I opted out of church long ago – I still go to a meeting most weekends, but I am no longer totally committed to a particular assembly, paying tithes and offerings, praying diligently for the pastor and others in the church, offering my gifts and services to the assembly, sitting in silence in my pew each weekend while one person does all the talking.
    I have taken to the streets sharing with others whom I meet, praying for their healings in the street, praying with people to come to the Lord etc.
    I get far more spiritual refreshment from doing what the Lord told me to do (many years ago!) than sitting on a pew soaking up messages that have been recycled a dozen times each one.

  72. PS An amendment:
    Not to say that the messages are not good-in many cases they are.
    But I meant for myself personally, I have likely heard most of them a dozen times over.

  73. Andrew Oct 10th 2014

    DavidA – you mean Peter and John were not “leaders” in the church?

    You mean the “5 fold” ministries are not God’s idea?

    This concept of “no leaders” is just as false and unbiblical as anything else. Please read the NT again and see just how important anointed leaders are.

    No leaders – no NT church

    Blessings

    Andrew Strom

  74. Robert Stockwell Oct 10th 2014

    The title you have given this piece shows the key to the problem. Pastoring is not a job – it is a calling. Paul writing to the Church at Ephesus tells us that Jesus gave gifts of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for equipping the saints. The function of these “offices” is that we should all come to maturity. The result should be that the proper working of each individual part causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

    Church history contains a dismal record of human ideas of how the Church should be organised. There are also bright instances when the local Church has allowed the Holy Spirit to move in such a way that Jesus is able to do what He promised: “I will build My church”. I worshipped in such a local Church 40 years ago. Sadly, a godly man came into influence and put his hand on what the Lord had accomplished. His fear was that the assembly (which had four related congregations) would become a denomination. As a result of his actions two congregations closed and the other two joined denominations.

    Within that local Church the members were learning to know the leading of the Holy Spirit for themselves. They followed His leading in their personal lives and in their contributions to the meetings of the assembly. In fifteen years the leadership only had to openly correct a member’s contribution on three occasions. As one of those leaders I can testify that it was a joy to lead and (although all the leaders were in normal secular jobs) we did not experience stress or burn-out over those 15 years. Today there are members from that assembly (now around the world) who give testimony to the lasting benefit that they received from the teaching and experience of those days.

  75. Davida Oct 10th 2014

    They where not leaders in any church, they where simply people doing what Jesus had bidded them do. But man has chosen to build his own church in his image just like they took God and changed Him into our own image. Dont you understand why it says, “come out of her my people”. One Jesus one way, one Spirit one God.

    Did He not say, “I am the way” so why are we doing it mans way?

  76. I think that the main cause for burnout and stress among many pastors is their failure to follow the pattern of Apostle Paul and focus on equipping the saints for ministry instead of trying to do the whole thing themselves. While scriptures point out that it is important to meet their material needs, I do not see why like Paul they cannot engage in economic activities on the sideline instead of solely relying on their churches for sustenance. By releasing the ministry to the saints, they can play the role of facilitators and thus free themselves to engage in other activities. After all, all believers are called members of a holy priest hood. All are meant to be priests. They should also remember that the church belongs to Christ, and success is not determined by how many are getting saved or how materially endowed the church is. They are servants, and their work is to plant the seeds of the Word of God. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to nurture and grow these seeds. If they are faithful to their calling then I do not see why they should be under any stress at all. Their main problem is they try to own the church and try to determine how it should go while leaving the Lord of the Church – Christ, and the administrator of the Church – the Holy Spirit out of the picture. My advice to the pastors is – if Christ has called you, then let Him lead you through His Holy Spirit as to how He wants His ministry to run. The problem is that most pastors have either forgotten this fact, or have called themselves into ministry.

  77. These statistics should not be surprising. Pastors are trying to do what God wants to do directly, by his Spirit without any human mediator. They are all false prophets. It makes sense that God would make life difficult for them. They are trying to do his job. See this link:
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/passage.aspx?q=jeremiah+31:31-34;1+thessalonians+4:9;1+john+2:27;john+14:26;1+corinthians+2:12

  78. Davida Oct 10th 2014

    Paul God does not make it difficult for them, without God there is no life, they choose to do it there way without Him and so it it as it is.

  79. Andrew Oct 10th 2014

    Hmmm

    The system is indeed broken

    But that does not mean “5 fold” leaders should be outlawed

    Actually we need MORE anointed leaders – not less!

    (Like the early church)

    -Andrew Strom

  80. Andrew,

    Leaders, yes. But leaders who are leaders because they lead us into God’s truth and in His ways, NOT “leaders” who “lead” by command, who say they are “leaders” with “authority” that we must obey because they have a position or title or claim some sort of authority that has fallen upon them from God or anyone else. (ANYONE can speak with God’s authority who cites God’s law; NOBODY has “because I said so” authority on earth … except parents in their own home with their own children.)

    And citing the example of men who had true leadership ability and may have exercised it properly in one area does not authenticate that form of leadership for anyone else who may claim a similar title or position in that or any other area.

  81. I would really appreciate it if someone could give me the scripture reference where it says there is to be a “church”. My understanding is that those “chosen” by Jesus “you have not chosen me, I have chosen you” (John 15:16) are to be the living visible representation of Jesus himself here today in this dark and satanically controlled world.

    MAN coined the word ‘church’ and it has come to represent a physical location, not a gathering of believers following the leading of the Holy Spirit in their everyday fulfillment of the ministry to which they have been called. Jesus said he was going to build “mature or grow” his body as a Father oversees the growth and maturing of his children, not a brick and mortar edifice.

  82. Lori T Oct 10th 2014

    “Why they think, their job is stressful? They don’t spend enough time with the Lord, they don’t teach people to be independent from them.”

    I agree with Catherine. They don’t teach people to be independent from them. They are supposed to be equipping the saints for the work of the ministry (preaching the gospel, healing the sick, casting out devils, etc) and equipping them to be making disciples themselves. If all the body of Christ were shown how to do that, the stress on pastors would be gone. Many hands make the work light.

  83. Ben said: “Leaders, yes. But leaders who are leaders because they lead us into God’s truth and in His ways, NOT “leaders” who “lead” by command, who say they are “leaders” with “authority” that we must obey because they have a position or title or claim some sort of authority that has fallen upon them from God or anyone else. (ANYONE can speak with God’s authority who cites God’s law; NOBODY has “because I said so” authority on earth … except parents in their own home with their own children.)

    And citing the example of men who had true leadership ability and may have exercised it properly in one area does not authenticate that form of leadership for anyone else who may claim a similar title or position in that or any other area.”

    Great insight and definition of leadership.

    It seems like the majority see that what is called “church” today is not what God has in mind or planned for His body. I am encouraged!
    It must start with ourselves as individuals, living in Jesus only, then when the season is right Jesus will lead us to another individual or many and it may only be for a season as well. Stop trying to turn the “seasons” into something it is not by developing a formula. Grasping and living in the moment sharing the love of Jesus!! Embrace the day and do not worry about tomorrow.

  84. DonaldN Oct 10th 2014

    To say “No Leaders, I only follow Jesus!” is comparable to saying in the business world, “I only follow the owner of the company!”
    Comparably, in the Church, God has anointed some to lead. We are to follow those, and by doing so we are following God.

  85. DonaldN Oct 10th 2014

    I believe the difference here can be summed up in the terms…
    overseeer
    over-ruler

    God wants overseers to watch over his sheep.

    Pastors, for the most part, have become over-rulers, lording over the people.

  86. Zululander Oct 10th 2014

    Be assured folk. Leadership in anything is essential, down to leading your own life well or ending in a mess.
    NOTHING works properly without leadership, from a father in a family to the president of a country.
    I DARE anyone to drive through the Central African Republic now. You won’t come out the other side. There is no leadership. Govt has broken down & everyone does as he likes…..CARNAGE.
    I would rather have Genghis Khan, Hitler or Saddam hussein as my president than no leadership at all. Look what one man Mandela did for SA. Now look at what Mugabe did in Zimbanwe how good it went in early days & how it changed when he was losing power. He turned Zim into a basket case. One leader can do. But NO leader is chaos & carnage & that applies to EVERYTHING…..even church.
    Get over this leadership thing folks, you’re blowing against the wind.

  87. Richard McCollam Oct 10th 2014

    With all due respect to those who are laboring in the Harvest of souls. The so called “church” of today is built almost entirely on a flesh concept. The concept is that the Church is comprised of members, governed by a pastor who is governed by God. Pastor worship is the result of this flesh concept and financial support and prosperity becomes the driving force behind the pastors efforts to add to “his” flock.

    I agree with Tim above that the best thing a minister can do is to instruct the people to seek God and study their Bible. Be open to Truth and love Truth when they find it. A Pastors goal should be to Minister in such a way as Paul stated in,Gal 4:19… until Christ be formed in you.Pastors who create in their people a dependency upon themselves have missed their calling.

    The Church is a many member ed body not answering the description of any one group or individual. You cannot contain the Church in a building or denomination or fellowship of ministries. Those who think they can should return to the beginning and start all over. No man is the head of this Church or group of men for that matter. Christ himself is Head and interfering with His headship in peoples life leads to the mess we have today. The New World church is emerging under a hierarchy of man in all it’s spender and self exalted glory. Be ware of False Prophets and Ministries who are gravitating to this end. Their Spirit mother is calling them home.

  88. Mickey Oct 10th 2014

    You know the Catholics been around for 2000 yrs. and have not splintered into thousands of denominations
    Maybe they have something in their structure of organization us non-Catholics missing
    All of Protestant churches are built on men. The Church is built on the Christ and the twelve Apostles like unto the New Jerusalem. Now for us
    They have stumbling blocks of idolatry and over-tradition
    Maybe it is time to start praying for this. The Holy Spirit flows in unity. Maybe it’s time stop complaining grumbling about the conditions of the church as a whole and get of our butt and do being the good fruit of Christ.

  89. Mickey,

    You should read about the history of the catholic church and if you can than say it is built on Christ.?? Go read about the crusades and what was done. There is bickering and infighting amongst all the churches, everyone says “my way”, is the right way, did not Jesus declare He was the way. Even now in Jerusalem teh catholics christians and greek orthodox are fighting over who owns what, all the christian churches declare they serve the same God but each preaches a different Jesus, Remember Exodus
    ” God said to Pharoh,”Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me”, but pharoh wont let His people go and so they serve the “church” and not God.. Or Christ saying, ”

    Mat_15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    Who do you want to be led by . the Holy Spirit like Moses in the wildereness or men like pharoh whos army followed him to destruction persuing Gods people.

    In all His Love

  90. this link is more church than I ever found with brick and mortar buildings http://www.pinterest.com/omega40/ Also tithing issue has turned many churches into clubs with watered down ear itching entertainment. This church is sick and FB church is a huge answer until the tithe issue is corrected. see link here https://www.facebook.com/groups/180373015021/

  91. Jesus said if HE is lifted up HE will draw all men unto HIM.
    Pastors are shepherds. The Eastern shepherd LED the sheep in many western countries the shepherd DIVES the sheep.
    Wonder if that is the problem ?

    Maybe??

  92. oops spelling error to my previous e.mail should read DRIVES the sheep

  93. Andrew Oct 11th 2014

    Poor old pastors.

    Not much sympathy here.

    Even for those who are truly called and anointed as teachers and leaders.

    Oh well.

  94. This issues of over-stressed pastors is a symptom of a deeper problem with the current western Christians. It can be grouped in with the other symptoms such as the high rate of divorce, the high percentage of Christian men addicted to pornography, the high number of Christian who are depressed and on anti-depression medication, pastors committing adultery, the errors of the mega church movement, the errors of the prophetic movement, and many other symptoms that expose the deeper issue. The root cause of these symptoms is carnality, i.e. the flesh. Most modern Christians including pastors and church leaders are not able to truly walk in the Spirit, but are walking in the flesh. This must be true or these symptoms would not be there. You know a tree by its fruit, and the fruit of this tree is carnal.
    We need to heed Gal. 5:15 – “I say then: Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.” and then in 19: “The works of the flesh are evident, which are: “adultery, fornication, uncleanness,….hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions,….envy…” This sounds a lot like what is happening in these churches, doesn’t it? v22: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” These things should be present if Christians were walking in the Spirit and there is no excuse. Either you are walking in the Spirit and showing this fruit or not.
    The issue with stressed pastors is a problem with both the pastors and the Christian church members. Pastors don’t know how to truly depend on the Spirit, so they depend on their carnal minds, putting enormous pressure on themselves rather than trusting the Spirit’s guidance and trusting God to do the work. Rather they try to fix things themselves in their flesh. As for the church members, they look to a man rather than to God. They look to the pastor rather than spending time in the Word and seeking God themselves. Also, the church system places the main focus on the organization rather than on people’s relationship with God. Of course this is not verbally spoken, but it is what is communicated by action, and actions speak louder than words. If you honestly observe you will find that the church organization takes a higher priority than a church member’s relationship with the Lord. This is all a clear indication that Christians are functioning in their fleshly minds, focused on the things of this earth, therefore, walking in the flesh.

    My opinion is that the deeper problem is that many Christians have shallow conversion experiences and never really understand what it means to die with Christ to this world, to consider themselves dead to this world and all that it offers, and to set their mind and affections on Heaven, with Christ, living for the hope that we have in Jesus. You can’t have Spiritual life unless the flesh is dead. I don’t think that the modern Christian Church, including most pastors and leaders (of course there are exceptions), really understand the deep, radical conversion that causes us to be born again of the Spirit, nor can they then walk and function in the Spirit.

    But God has a remnant, and He is able to awaken the dead dry bones of those who are Spiritually dead as in Ezekiel 37. I pray that He does so soon. Unfortunately, many will not listen to this now, for their ear and eyes are dull.

  95. Being a pastor in organized religion is a “career” decision, or so it seems. 55-70 hours per week … would seem like a business professional’s hours (i.e., a career). And really …. I don’t know what state or county we’re talking about, but in my 3-county area, if “actual work” equals 20 hours per week I’d be surprised, unless you add in their side businesses. As for pay … what percentage of workers think they make enough? And they (non-pastors) don’t get a house with all bills paid, a salary, a car, a car allowance, 401K retirement plan, health and life insurance, special income tax breaks, etc.

    I love what brother/apostle Paul taught … he worked so that none could say that he preached the gospel for the money. And he said “be like me”!

    And to help prove my point; why is it that a church has to go out and solicit for a pastor to replace one that has been there 20-30 years? Do you really mean that the retiring pastor trained no one up? That says it all.

    It was never intended to be one or two or three at the top … NO … it’s ALL! All born again believers are the priests and kings, and offering go to all those in need. I already have a recurring income that meets my basic needs, so as a pastor, I am not due a extra income. I don’t have the right to drive a $50k car and live in a $250k house if I have members struggling to survive. That’s not the gospel and not what I see in the bible.

  96. Andrew, are you looking for sympathy for “poor old pastors,” even those who have passed on but who had good ministries while they were here … or are you looking for the truth as according to the Bible? Seems that there are a growing number here who have gotten tired of just going along with the institution out of tradition … or fear … or some externally-imposed sense of a need for obedience. That, to my way of thinking, is healthy … and long overdue.

    I have NEVER seen “burnout” in a man who was where God truly put him – the “truly called and anointed as teachers and leaders” – but I’ve seen a lot of it – perhaps more even than you – amongst the many who have taken it upon themselves to occupy a man-made position in the name of religion. Are you suggesting that these impostors are deserving of our sympathy?

    Nay, Sir: may they all burn out … before they burn.

  97. We need to come back to the book of Acts. The whole system is wrong and actually keeps Christians as babies never being able to stand on there own two feet. Pastors are not turning people into disciples as they pretend they are, and say they are (because Bible School trained them that way). Even though most Pastors complain, if you actually offer help, they don’t want it, despite the fact there are competent people around. They may have arrived with initial good intent, but the system has led them astray. They have come to enjoy there self importance, and the fact that they are “needed” by the ever needy congregation. The importance that the title of the job position brings is the downfall. If people watched the series from Torben Sonderguaard, took off their religious glasses they would see how “church” is boxed and does not allow the Holy Spirit to have his way. Too many Pastors are control fanatics, and cannot give over to the Lord, and nor do they know how to, as they have been brought up in the institution themselves. I agree whole Heartedly with Torben, and his story is our story. We have actually come to the realisation ourselves, that “church” does not work, and have sought God for his will in our lives, which he has mightily blessed. We have had more influence in helping people to Repent, Baptised and receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. By recently discovering Torben Sonderguaard’s approach, it is confirmation to us, because God has led us the same way. The Lord has provided in-roads in the most unlikely way for us to preach. No pastor would take us under their wing for 30 years despite our eagerness to serve the Lord in this way. When going to a new church, we discovered that all the “positions are full” and there was no place to join. However the church is quite quick to put you on the list for every Alpha Course of Men’s or Women’s ministry. We got to the point, of How many times do we have to do that course? Which is seen as rebellion. Church will keep you busy and demand everything out of you until you drop. Then they still pick you up and dust you off with all the scriptures related to weariness, and lack of faith.
    The new reformation has hit, and God already has his contingency plan, for the last outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Our training ground has been the rejection of the churches, the desert. No wonder people do not come to church, don’t Pastors see the display they are putting on? To any sincere Pastor, watch ALL of Torbens Pioneer School series, and your burden should be lifted. If not, you are still doing things in your own strength. We cannot change the churches, only God can. But you can have a fulfilling life in the ministry of Jesus. Just ask him what it is that he would have you do, and he will show you. You have not, because you ask not.

    My husband feels led to preach and teach, and I love to worship. But everywhere we went, no one wanted us. We saw a lot of fleshly-controlling and manipulative behaviour to push us out of the way. It was quite clear that they wanted our attendance, or what we call “bums on seats, and tithes in baskets”.
    God will tell you through the Holy Spirit what he wants accomplished, and how to get it done. Also, do not take to heart what a prophet puts over you. We have discovered that it usually is a mechanism designed to push you away from what God wants you to do, and slot you into a position where the Pastor wants you. Because I am a mother, every church sees me as Sunday School fodder. My husband is seen as Men’s ministry. Everywhere we go, that is how we are seen. It is not however what God has been directing us to do. Be obedient to God. Recognise the church manipulation and stand firm. Because of us standing firm and not giving in, but keeping God constantly in our lives he has opened doors in the most unlikely way.
    After 30 years of religious rejection, we have been asked to host a Bikers event this Saturday the 11th October. I am worshipping and my husband is preaching repentance, salvation, baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of tongues. Doing everything that the “so called prophets said that we wouldn’t.”
    They are putting on a meal, and have put Harley Davidson’s bikes on display in the hall. Bikers are coming into town to support the event. Mind you, we are not Bikers, but will preach God’s salvation message to anything that moves. Everything from the book of Acts, everything that Torben is doing. What confirmation it is that we are on the same track, as we discovered his site two weeks ago, when some friends of ours went to a conference that he was doing in Melbourne.
    Really you have to separate God from religion. The time has come, we are in End Times…………and God is raising up obedient God fearing people to carry out his end time purpose. If you are disillusioned, but love Christ with all your heart………..please check out the series that Torben has done. I watched series 1 and 2 last night, and my Spirit is in total agreement. God may have some almighty purpose for you, and take you further and deeper with him than you could have possibly imagined. Hold God to his promises……….you will not be disappointed.
    This is our testimony with our experience of the institution of “Church”. And how God has led us out and shown us to carry on as in the book of Acts. The way it was before church became a business.
    Sincerely Yours
    Steve and Kerri Grant.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdzZv-XMXPU&index=48&list=UUJXcYb9zYJ8_QA3Bcg5Fe2g lesson 1 for stressed out Pastors

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlKS3XkkvVk lesson 2 for stressed out Pastors

    Using these above links, you will find the rest of the series at his Homepage.

  98. Andrew Oct 11th 2014

    I love Torben and promote his stuff.

    But beyond evangelism and salvations, we need to see actual “Body Life” with elders and all that goes into real ‘NT church’.

    Is this happening?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  99. Davida Oct 11th 2014

    Andrew , I always wondered why you shut down your forums. If one expects to be a christian and not cop flack, than one had problems, if one expects everyone to agree with you, than you have even more issues. we only have to agree with God and that what is right and true. If one is truly a man of God than He wouldnt need to point it out its by ones fruit we judge not by what one wears or calls them self. If one needs too wear things to show the world they are a christian that its all external and nothing on the inside. We are either part of Gods Kingdom or part of this world, its either by the spirit we are led or we are carnal and led by the flesh, I only care abt what God desires not what man thinks abt me. It either His will or not at all..

    Regards

  100. Andrew Oct 11th 2014

    Many Christian forums shut down when they realized Christians were using them to be horrible to each other – or spread heresy.

    We did the same.

    Sad.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  101. Davida Oct 11th 2014

    Yes Andrew strange as it is, when the time for the persecution of those who belong to Jesus comes, most of the persecuting will be done by the religious just as Jesus and teh disciple where. There is nothing new under the sun. And as I said to the Mikey, you should read about the Crusades and what the church and christains did to the Jews and one another, how religion was used to further the wealth and power of teh church., strange that the pope should say that people should not use religion to justify war, tha treally is teh pot calling the kettle black. how quickly the past is forgotten.

  102. Davida Oct 11th 2014

    As for Heresy amazing amounts of that spread in the church??

  103. Pastors are Human ( believe it or not.)
    Just an observation that if they shred more in their day to day life with their flock it would help.
    If a Pastor is really in the right place , appointed and anointed by God will he suffer from ” burn out”? I may be incorrect, but I think “One man” churches are not really biblical?
    It would be interesting to hear from Pastors who have suffered from ” burn out and if they ever looked back to research what the cause was.. Some previous mentioned that Easter shepherds ( Pastors) led their shepp from the front the sheep followed. Here in UK and in some other countries shepherds drive from behind. May be that correspondent has a comment which would be worth looking into.
    Have a blessed week end all ye Pastors and People. ” Let go and let God”

  104. His Truth is marching on Oct 11th 2014

    Praise the Lord, for the many truthful, insightful comments here, and again I say, PRAISE THE LORD!!!……….I pray He will give ears to hear.

    I’m afraid that whole article only serves to prove the huge disconnect between the man-made religious system and God’s will. Why on earth are these pastors trying to live up to and obey the “expectations that people put on them”, instead of only obeying the Living God and Word whose servants they are supposed to be? Problem solved. And may He bless you one and all.

  105. A sign of someone ministering in their own power and authority is burnout. They are NOT yoked with Jesus.

    Jesus said, come to ME, you who are heavy burdened and I will give you rest. Their own burnout testifies against fleshly motivated pastors who rely on the flesh and not the Spirit of the Lord.

    Also, the Bible speaks of a 5 fold ministry in which pastors are to be servant leaders. Sadly, Americanized Christianity is primarily about a pastor ‘king’ to be idolized. It is steeped in Babylonian tradition, which is why they make excuses as to why they disobey the 4th Commandment, yet fight for their stand to worship on the Sun-god day ;Sunday” rather than on the day PLEASING to the Lord, They celebrate the Babylonian holidays of Easter, which is based on the Babylonian goddess of fertility and her ‘egg laying’ rabbit. And the Sun god’s birthday of Deceber 25 is embraced as well, while they idol worship a new born child. Jesus ain’t no baby. He’s a King and He is the Lion of Judah who will soon return to reign with a rod of iron.

    Biblically Illiterate Americanized Christianity results in 90% of their children departing the faith after attending college. Barna research says it is due to Biblical illiteracy. The pastors are NOT feeding the sheep as the Bible warns.

    Come out of Babylon my people. Learn of Jesus. Come to Jesus. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. It is time to yoke with Jesus and follow His prescribed course… found in Bible Scripture.

  106. Thank you for inviting comment. Please scan the web site of the author of the article, Bill Gaultiere and his wife Kristi. He is new age and looks to his teachers Dallas Willard, Renovare, etc. Mixture at best. And we wonder at the burnout of those who have stepped into the role of pastor?! God tells us that He will call those He has chosen to be pastors and teachers of His people. The Christian universities turning out these people are undermining the word of God. They are using, instead of the classics firm in their faith of God, new teaching that is of man. Well they should be stressed, natural outcome would be for them to see they were not called and to get out.

    I could understand seeing this man’s article in one of the new age mags, or Charisma, I just didn’t expect to see it on this post. The same has happened to the churches, these false teachers are not sneaking through a window left opened, as they try all the doors and windows, but they are welcomed in through the front door!

    Bill and Kristi tell us on their web site that for $160/hr they will practice psychotherapy on us. They will help Jesus find out what is hidden deep within those of us who are not being helped by God. Psychotherapy is all about Me, Myself and I. The kingdom of God is all about God. And our trust in Him.

    Their website asks: HOW CAN WE CONNECT YOU WITH JESUS? I am grieved as I read these that have garnered even our attention in their words. Jesus asks in Luke 18:7-8 “And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you, that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on earth?”

  107. Richard McCollam Oct 11th 2014

    Mickey,

    The Catholic Church has been around for roughly 1700 years. They were established as a Man controlled entity around 300AD. In fact, most of what is being discussed on this thread in reference to what man calls the “church” can anchor back to the RCC. But then this is a different study.

    There is an authority that God gives to his Disciples over Sickness Disease, and the Demonic Spirit realm. But God reserves to himself the governance of His people. When he speaks through an anointed vessel, it is not for the glorification of that vessel. A man or a hierarchy of men (including women), set up for the purpose of controlling people, by giving them an object or objects of adoration including a man idol is not instituted by God. Here in lies part of the problem. In varying degrees, the evangelical church world has adopted this flesh form of governance which has resulted in an absence of God in the midst of the congregation. The flesh driven man then tries to compensate by programs and services, all kinds of activities that feed the social needs of the people. This in turn attracts those looking for Social Activity etc. Those who are looking for a growing relationship with the Lord are left wanting. It’s like the Children of Israel when God governed them by speaking through anointed vessels, but they wanted a King like other peoples. The Kingdom of other peoples was not God’s best for his people but because of their insistence He gave them a King…

  108. His Truth is marching on Oct 11th 2014

    I bless the Lord that He is showing His people all the same truths…. and here I believe is another example of the false church system:

    Exodus 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

    Exodus 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

    This speaks to me that because Jesus tarries, the people give their treasure unto a priest who then makes a false god for them to worship.

  109. Yes here we see Aaron pleasing the people instead of doing what He knows to be Gods will,
    Thou shalt not have any god before me.

  110. Im glad to that people are recognising the days we are in, better to be found in Christ than in church.

  111. The system is broken and no one person should be expected to do all the things asked of the modern pastor. “When you come together….” it says numerous people will bring something to the table. The responsibility for the church meeting then falls on the body, and we are responsible if the time together is indeed productive or not. It is a little akin to trying to make a movie with only one actor. Bad movie….we need the body, and real relationship. Church leaders should be Christ followers and pay attention to the Master, not what people think…but again, the system is completely dysfunctional and very much like the Roman Catholic model…..mother of harlots….needs to be done completely differently…..

  112. PS Andrew….I love Torben and what he is bringing to the body, but it is only part of the picture….we have always “made disciples” by giving our lives to people, sharing our home and food and time and the Word etc….time consuming but it has been effective….relationship works and keeps people safer and on track. I want to do more of Torben’s kind of stuff, but also recognize the value of what we ourselves do…each of us has a great deal to offer the rest…..also, I can see why you would not want to do a forum….but appreciate that you do it, when you feel you can handle what will come out! :-)

  113. Andrew, I see only one place in all of the New Testament where a “church meeting” is described, and that’s in I Corinthians 14. (Which, by the way, REQUIRES there to be an interpreter for other tongues – clearly an existing foreign languages that was just unknown to the speaker prior to his speaking it – if it is to be for the edification of anyone else.) And the really interesting thing is this: there is ZERO evidence in the New Testament that Corinth even had an elder. Not one. Not plural elders. Not a single one. See, the emphasis in the New Testament is NEVER on the “leadership.” And “body life” is just life … shared with other believers. Day to day. House to house.

    Now, do we need leadership? You betcha. Never more. Just look at the growth of Islam … which is NOT a religion, but is a movement, created by the Catholic “church,” solely to kill Christians. Are we gonna fight? We have to. But are we going to waste our energy arguing about “speaking in tongues” and following “elders,” or are we going to join the Lord’s side and fight the real foe?

    As I said: there are no real “burned out” leaders in God’s army. There are the real leaders, who are in the fight, and then there are the pretenders, occupying man-made positions, sitting on the equivalent of Oprah’s couch complaining that someone hurt their feelings. They’re on the other side.

  114. Ingrid Oct 12th 2014

    …… and I thought I had problems!!
    I know the answer is to spend time with Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in everything I do, and yet I still don’t spend enough quality time with the Lord. This post has inspired me to make more time.

  115. I question lots of things and wonder sometimes if we in the west are not able to put ourselves in other’s shoes. Laiety can’t understand clergy and clergy sometimes can’t really understand laiety. I believe it’s the creeping narcissism and we westerners being caught up in the world’s system, of which the the modern churches never warned us about.

    Each saint has completely different struggles, strengths from one another. We all fall into the young, strong, or the middle-aged and chronically ill or the elderly and sick. Some very older christians are very healthy while many others are stricken with cancer, diabetes, disabilities, etc. There are lonely christians, and then there are christians with big supportive families , financially-secure ones, poor ones, middle of the road ones, depression-suffering ones, positive and energetic focused ones, victorious ones and still-struggling ones and westerners are not very tolerant towards in dealing with this.

    I’ve seen rich pastors who hang around their other rich pastor friends, I’ve seen poorer pastors who live just within their means, who would give the shirt off their backs to a stranger, seen the Martha’s criticize the Mary’s and vice versa. I’ve heard rich christians tell poor christians to stop forcing government to pay for their food stamps, heard rich christians mock the poor and call them lazy. I’ve seen needy christians become embittered, seen the richer saints go off on trips cruises, conferences all over the continent, when they knew they had their lambs struggling, not in finances particularly, but in loneliness, hopelessness, afflictions. And the worst of it lately, is watching preachers demand that their congregations vote in elections, and murmur and complain about their fear of losing rights. The church has become a those ‘without’ versus those ‘with’.

    I’ve never seen unity. I hoped to see it in a church, but it’s not possible unless all saints live in the same manner as the first church and have all things in common. Offenses of course will always come and probably happened in the early church as well even as they shared all things, but we have absolutely no clue as to how the early church was and how tempered they must have been. We, actually today, can hardly get along with our neighbors.

    Problems rise when people have unrealistic expectations from people and selfishness demands that. No answers to this dilemna, except that the man-made church has created this monster and how can we get out of this practice? Who is going to start a Book of Acts church? Who is going to sell all and have all things in common? We can’t, because we’ve become so soft and accustomed to being our own masters and independent and we are proud and arrogant about our education, achievements and worked too hard to give it all up. Oh, miserable men that we are!

    I know the mercy of the Lord endureth forever and He is unhappy with this Laodicean church, but still loves Her. We’ll have to find common ground in the way church is set up – it’s too late to change, the days are short. I believe that people can still be saved in the Laodicean church age, even in man-made structures. God’s Spirit is being poured out everywhere, when an individual thirsts for him, despite men. I’m so thankful that our Lord still works to save and doesn’t condemn us, even in our folly.

  116. Davida Oct 12th 2014

    For one thing, church isnt even a real word, misinterpreted, but so waht it has created the monster it has. Men die for the lack of knowledge, I used to believe all I was told till my eyes where opened and could see most of what I was taught isnt even in the bible, and as far as the “Word” goes I only know of one Jesus. But than we why are men building churches, did not Jesus say He would build His, now i believe the word actually is a government, certainly not a brick and mortar building cemented in one place. It was never meant to be this way, but for every thing that God does, the devil has his counterfeit, yet people love it that way. Yet time is too short to be bitter, best to find Jesus before its too late, Hes not hiding anywhere.

    Regards

  117. ValleyAnt Oct 12th 2014

    “Let the priests, who minister to the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar; let them say, ‘Spare… oh Lord'” (Joel 2:17).

    Too many good comments here to address each one, so I’ll just add what’s on my heart. The Bible says that when vision lacks, confusion, rebellion, and disorder ensue. (Pro. 29:18). In 1Sam. 3:1-4, we see a time in Israel when immorality and sin were rampant because of the lack of vision among Israel’s spiritual leaders. So it is today. When it’s all said and done, after we’ve fingered the problems and offered solutions, what does the Bible show as God’s solution?

    Over and over, the Bible shows that godly men (and women) of vision continually were God’s answer to right any type of wrong and bring peace and resolution to any conflict. These people often had their own sins or issues, but they were moved by God’s own vision (purpose) for people. Those who “minister to the Lord” are Christians who are burdened and convicted by the circumstances; such people can have boldness to enter God’s Throne Room and say to Him, “Spare, oh Lord. Send us godly men who are full of Your vision and purpose.” This has always been the answer to the problem(s), and it remains the same answer today.

  118. Davida Oct 12th 2014

    Jesus sums it up in one sentence,
    Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    Is Jesus not enough for men??

  119. There is no “clergy” and there is no “laity.” Those are Roman Catholic (Satanic) terms. (Rome is also the source of the false “religions” of Islam and Mormonism, both designed specifically to kill real Christians.) But the “evangelical” community is no better. One does not get a few degrees closer to the truth of the Word while still retaining ANY elements of falsehood and speak the truth.

    The truth is that ALL of the traditions of men, if taught and followed as sourced from the patterns and commands the New Testament, violate the clear commands of our Lord: “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matthew 15:7-9)

    So why should “stress” on men who blatantly commit this sin be of concern to real believers? It is to be EXPECTED, even welcomed! It is proof, perhaps, of the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon them for their sin.

  120. “… patterns and commands OF the New Testament …”

  121. Andrew Oct 12th 2014

    Yes – there is no clergy and there is no “laity”.

    But there are ‘leaders’ and there is a ‘5-fold’ ministry.

    Throw those away and you can no longer have the New Testament church.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  122. Oh.

    So Jesus said, “upon these leaders and the 5-fold ministry I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

  123. Andrew Oct 13th 2014

    IN REPLY-

    Ephesians 4:11-13 (KJV)-

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
    ——————————————

    There is your answer, sir.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  124. Andrew, that was AFTER Jesus started His church; it was not the basis of His church. These gifts affect the church, but they do not define the church. Again, go back to Corinth and find any of those there … apart from Paul the apostle writing to them, of course. It cannot be said that, apart from some gifted with these offices, we would no longer have the church unless the “church” in discussion is something created AFTER Jesus created HIS church.

    But let’s agree on this: the church is ONLY what is clearly described in the New Testament and nothing of what was added to it by the traditions of men thereafter. That throws out Sunday as the “Christian Sabbath,” the “office” of “pastor,” any division between “clergy” and “laity,” church buildings, sermons, “local church membership,” “confessions of faith,” “tithing” to “the church” – ANYTHING else sourced in and practiced by tradition and not from the patterns and commands of the New Testament.

  125. Andrew Oct 13th 2014

    I agree, but the tone of your replies smacks of “detesting all leadership”.

    Which makes true “Body Life” impossible.

    “Detesting all leadership” also goes by another name-

    Rebellion.

    Isn’t that correct?

    Andrew Strom

  126. David Marsh Oct 13th 2014

    I have watched and been a part of a few traditional, unbiblical, religeous groups of Christians that are still call themselves churches.
    They are painful to watch and I just cant bring myself to join in with them anymore.

    To explain my grief, it is like watching a cyclist (who doesnt actually ride very well – proclaim the wonderful joys of riding a bicycle with an instruction manual in his hand)
    The class comes together and they wheel their bicycles in and lean them against the wall. The Pastor begins lifting every member on to his own back and carries them around the room – explaining how wonderful it is to cycle. The meeting finishes and the members wheel their bicycles back home and put them in the shed for safe storage.

    Jesus trained His disciples to operate in the Holy Spirit, how to hear Him, obey Him and how He would operate through them in the gifts of the Spirit.

    Pastors only teach their congregations about Jesus and about the Holy Spirit – taking over the Holy Spirit’s responsibility of guiding and teaching the members. No wonder they get burnt out so quickly.

    Nevertheless, God is now working to rebuild the Book of Acts church. The genuine working model that was run by, and powered by the Holy Spirit ( of Jesus ).

    God bless you guys

    David Marsh.

    And there is the glaringly painful

  127. David Marsh Oct 13th 2014

    We do not see any of the actions of God’s Book of Acts church – in today’s rigid program services ( servicing building programs and wages).

    We do not see the members being taught to listen to and following our Lord by His Spirit at all.

    But in Acts we see;

    THE HOLY GHOST SAID, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work I have called them to do.”

    “While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said . . .”

    In Acts 11:12 Peter said, “The Spirit instructed me to go . . .”

    While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.” (vv. 19-20)

    The 5 fold ministry only came about AFTER good and faithful Christians learned how to hear from and operate in – the Holy Ghost.

    God bless you all

    David.

  128. Great Awakenings in America always have a leader that God has chosen Himself. And it lines up with scripture. All of the Great
    Awakenings in scripture had leaders that God had chosen.

    God establishing His Kingdom on earth during the next great awakening is the solution to most of the problems described in the article. Life in a spiritual paradise with the walls of salvation keeping the occult at bay.

    The catch is that the pastors will need to be genuinely trying to purify themselves to enter into The Holy City through the gates. You can’t bring sorcery voyeurism or pornography into God’s Kingdom on earth with you and God will not give a man or woman a ministry if they will not listen to Him.

    The good news is that life outside God’s Kingdom on earth will be pretty much the same as it is now. Three of four generations of pastors outside The Holy City burning out and stressing out and there will not be many of them left.

    Anyone that enters into The Holy City can drink from the river of living water for free. But outside The Holy City there is no living water and there never will be. So there is no future for the wicked.

    No one that enters into The Holy City during the Great Awakening will be stressed out and burnt out for very long.

  129. Davida Oct 13th 2014

    Again Andrew, pastors are supposed to lead people to Christ not keep them from Him.

    How is it written.

    Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    Can you offer them anything the Christ cannot.
    Can you save anyone,
    Can you give us anything Christ cannot.
    Can you teach any the mysteries of heaven that is only something God can do.

    There is nothing you have we cannot get from Christ. The flock do not belong to the pastors of the church unless they give them selves over to him, they belong to Christ.

    Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    This is why so many are leaving the “church”, they are begging to hear His voice, ” Come out of her my people”…

  130. There’s a big difference, Andrew, between “detesting all leadership” and detesting all leadership that CLAIMS that it leads with the mandate of God when it clearly does not. Leadership is critical, but essential to that is leadership that tells the truth.

    You are a leader. I am a leader. The difference between us is that I do not go around telling people that I am “a pastor” “called by God” as evidenced by my “ordination certificate.” (Maybe I’m assuming, Andrew, and if so, forgive me, but do you have “Reverend” before your name anywhere?)

    Here’s the truth: There is NOT a Biblical office called “pastor” in which the “pastor” is called by God to “lead” a “local church” in a CEO-like fashion. There is ONLY the example of the New Testament, which clearly does not include over 90% of what is practiced today in the name of “church.” This is a stench in the nostrils of God and is, in my estimation, a greater reason for His judgment upon us than abortion, homosexuality, and the advances of Satanic Islam combined … in fact, it is the sole reason for those evils to exist … because men of God – REAL leaders – have no power in the flesh (which is all the power that one can have when one takes a fleshly title) to stand up against evil.

    So … burnout? Discouragement? Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of imposters. They deserve far worse.

    Those, Sir, are leadership words.

    TELL THE TRUTH.

    In the words of Ben Franklin, Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God.

  131. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi (“Reverend,” “Pastor”) by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father (Call no man “Reverend” – That is GOD’s name!) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors (Don’t be called “pastor” though you may have the GIFT of teaching), for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    (Matthew 23:1-12 ESV)

  132. Andrew Oct 13th 2014

    I was not defending the current “system”

    I was defending the concept of ‘leadership’ and 5-fold ministry

    And you are right. Sadly you know nothing about me at all

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom