O.T. PROPHETS vs. N.T. PROPHETS – Any Difference?

NOTE: Quite an insight by Kevin Kleint here. And when you think about it, it really does make sense! We would be interested in your comments on the article below, my friends-

O.T. PROPHETS vs. N.T. PROPHETS – What´s the Difference?
-extracts by Kevin Kleint

When I left the Elijah List, my understanding of prophecy and
prophets was, at best, skewed. I knew that prophets and prophecy
were real, and that the bible talked about prophets as one of the
“5-fold ministries”. Still, I knew that the fruits of our modern day
“prophets” were NOT the fruits of righteousness and holiness,
but greed, lust and licentiousness.

One day, I asked in desperation, “God! Then how do I know a
True Prophet and True Prophecy??”

He replied, “Kevin … READ THE PROPHETS!!”

The End of Confusion

I know this will upset those of you who believe that there is a
difference between Old Testament prophecy and New Testament
prophecy, but the bottom line is… THERE ISN´T ANY DIFFERENCE!
You will not find anywhere in the bible where God says… “OK,
now you prophets who were before Jesus, this is how you should
prophesy. And you 5-fold ministry prophets …. you prophesy this
other way.” It´s just not there.

Exposing Sin

God, speaking through the prophet Jeremiah, tells us a key
characteristic of a True Prophet:

Lamentations 2:14 AMP
“Your prophets have predicted for you falsehood and delusion and
foolish things; and they have not exposed your iniquity and guilt
to avert your captivity [by causing you to repent]. But they have
divined and declared to you false and deceptive prophecies,
worthless and misleading.”

True Prophecy will expose sin for what it is …. an abomination in
the Eyes of God. True Prophecy will not play with sin. Sin
separates God from His Beloved Children and He hates it… yes,
He HATES sin. But it is because of God´s Love that He sends
true prophets to His people… to bring them to a place of repentance
so that the Divine relationship can be restored!
New Testament Conviction …. by All

Am I coming across too legalistic? Am I ignoring “grace”? Doesn´t
the sacrifice of Jesus cover all those “doom `n gloom” messages?
Let´s look at prophecy in the new Testament for a minute:

I Corinthians 14:23-25 NKJV
“Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all
speak with tongues, and there come in [those who are] uninformed
or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But
if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes
in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the
secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on [his]
face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.”

Wow! That almost sounds like the Old Testament! Have the modern
day “prophets” included this instruction in their “User-Friendly Prophecy”?

I challenge you to take your understanding of what a modern day
“prophet” is supposed to be and compare it to the Word of God.
God´s Prophets paid a price… they didn´t charge a fee.

-READ THE FULL ARTICLE-
http://www.honorofkings.org/old-new-testament-prophets/

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on September 4th, 2013 at 11:52 am.

247 comments

247 Replies

  1. Ann McConnell Sep 4th 2013

    That is a true word for today. Why do we think that God has changed His stand on sin? He hasn’t He still hates it and wants His people to be delivered from it, not to give in to it. May God have Mercy on us and wake us up to his Truth.

  2. stephen boyce Sep 4th 2013

    We need true prophets of Christ to expose the sin in the believer. I am doing that as I speak asking Christ to get rid of the junk so I wont be a hypocrite. of course I am not perfect only in his righteousness. we don’t need the jokers like Osteen who says sodomites will enter heaven 1 Cor 6 9&,10 deals with that very well sorry I am a KJV user because of my aspergers I find it easy to understand. I pray more preachers start talking on sin. I do when I street preach.

  3. Gayle Patton Sep 4th 2013

    Wow! What a great article! Where are all the true prophets today? Nobody’s listening. God, give them courage to speak and give us the humility to listen and repent. I’ve been enjoying a lot of what Kevin has written and I encourage you to do the same.

  4. goodwordtoday Sep 4th 2013

    Well said but left out the one thing that EVERY modern day prophet tries to find a scriptural interpretive loophole for:

    When a PROPHET SPEAKS IN THE NAME OF THE LORD and his words DO NOT come to pass.

    “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:22).

    “But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the Lord only if his prediction comes true” (Jer. 28:9).

    “When all this comes true – and it surely will – then they will know that a prophet has been among them.” (Ezek. 33:33).

    “The Lord was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord” (1 Sam 3:19).

    “I declared the former things long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.… Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I proclaimed them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, and my graven image and my molten image have commanded them’” (Isaiah 48:3, 5)

    If a prophet prophecies falsehoods, however innocently, how are we ever to be able to trust what that prophet says? The answer is we can’t. The Bible makes is crystal clear that true prophets of the Lord are speaking to the people on God’s behalf and that there is NO inaccuracy in their words.

    When prophets make predictions that they say are from the Lord and they miss it, they aren’t a true prophet. Getting it right most of the time or some of the time is not what the Bible describes as a true prophet of God.

    Modern day prophets use the loophole that the prophecy must be judged by other prophets. But the Bible doesn’t really say what happens with the prophet whose prophecy is judged to be false or just invented in their own minds. I doubt they would have been taken seriously after that.

    Unfortunately, that is not true today. I’ve heard sooooo many modern day prophets make many specific prophecies that have turned out to be ridiculously false and yet they are still REVERED in the Christian world, sought out, and some even considered apostolic leadership.

    It’s enough to make one question all modern teachings.

  5. Great article- been thinking the same things for quite a while. Seems the pathetic prophetic of today is nothing more than a greed driven industry fueled by the love of mammon & the fear of personal discomfort & true sacrifice.

  6. Allison Sep 4th 2013

    Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Thank you for posting this very important warning.

  7. Marius Burmeister Sep 4th 2013

    James 4:12 Jesus is the Lawgiver, Heb 13:8 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever, Mal 3:6 Jesus will never change, He is God. John 14: 21 if you love Me , the Father and I will be with you and love you, the Bible is writen through the Holy Spirit, the whole Biblie.

  8. Mary Joseph Sep 4th 2013

    Yes! I left a “prophetic” church for some of the same reasons over 7 years ago (Thank You Lord!!!) I am learning that the 5-Fold Ministers are FUNCTIONS, not TITLES…..True servants of the Lord that live it!

  9. Sandy Sep 4th 2013

    Yes! A true prophet has the same message, REPENT! MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD! John The Baptist in the Spirit of Elijah so the same Spirit is to be in ALL who are called to be a prophet by TheTrue LivingGOD! If the Word does not move us to humble ourselves and repent it is not TheSpirit of The Lord Most High! Deliver Your people oh LORD from, ” Having ears they hear not, having eyes they see not nor do they understand the ways of GOD”. We are living in the days our LORD spoke of in Mathew 24, Much deception.

  10. I agree that a lot of what is called prophetic in our time is fluff and also feel he is just another voice to validate our concerns and our callings in Christ. Just BE who God called us and He will back up HIS word with all manner of power and confirmations.

    Or is this really about something else…something insidious like…why the false is so much more attractive to the Lord’s people and the people don’t seem to hear God’s voice thru his true prophets because they’ve leave very little to follow or emulate…always in hiding, hyper critical, joyless and constantly afflicted in ways that would make anyone wonder whether God is with them. Its time for the real prophets to exemplify in joy, LOVE, POWER, word and deed what God requires and who the Lord is within them.

    The church and the world sometimes avoid the messenger because they leave dead bodies in the wake, sloppily carrying out the ministry while delivering truth. Let the world feel your love and they will hear your truth….but a lot if times the people with a word just give the word with coldness as if they’re hands are now washed of some guilt they’d have if they didnt deliver it….. no love, no compassion, totally have God’s heart about sin (hatred of sin) but lacking God’s heart for the people.

    I meet these types often….wounded by the church…gifted…tucked away and critical of so much because they dont know love. The false simply highlight the good feelings of love without the truth that …repentance…judgment are also elements of God’s plan.

    Doom and gloom is one sided. Angelic visits and gold dust another extreme. Grace with no repentance another extreme. Just BE light and people will see and know the difference. But again if what we present is so utterly unattractive and cold that is just as NOT God as one who falsely propheciee.

  11. There is a lot of confusion in the body of Christ about prophecy, Prophets, and the ideas promoted by the New Apostolic Reformation crowd. The Cessations have one view, Charismatics another. And the New Ages and Gnosticism in the church blur the lines even more….

    However, Wayne Grudem ‘The Gift Of Prophecy’ is a really good book about the subject. Its not completely comprehensive by any means, but its a very very good place to start as it brings a scholarly over view based in scripture. He is a Charismatic too, so he doesn’t just through everything out the window. He has a lot to say about positions, offices and the Holy Spirit. And how Prophecy was seen to have operated in the early church. Hope this helps, God bless.. 🙂

  12. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    I think it is entirely possible that God uses Modern Prophets in a different way in our times. The real difference that the writer did not consider, is the folks that are receiving the prophecy. The people of God in the Old Testament, did not have the God in them. God no longer lives in houses made with hands. He lives in us!!! This fact changes everything. The scripture tells us that the Holy Spitit, which dwells in us, will guide us into all Truth!!! So, we should consider that Today’s Prophets may take on a different role. I fully believe they are a Function, not an office!!

  13. DonaldN Sep 4th 2013

    David Markham…
    Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    Sounds like separation from God to me.

  14. Sandy Sep 4th 2013

    The prophets of today may be “different” than OT prophets BUT THE SAME SPIRIT THAT SPOKE THROUGH THEM IS THE SAME SPIRIT SPEAKING THROUGH THE PROPHET OF TODAY! That is the key

  15. Sandy Sep 4th 2013

    “Modern day or today, SAME GOD SAME SPIRIT.

  16. Bill Bennett Sep 4th 2013

    A very straight forward insightful look at the false vs the real. Truth will always point us in the right direction–dealing with sin is the prophets main calling. Touchy, feely is gross deception. May we lay hold of the burden of the hour, because our God will not be mocked. He is after purity and truth; thus we need to daily ask for discernment and a heart that says, ‘lead me in the way everlasting’.
    This article tells it like it is…

  17. Sandy Sep 4th 2013

    True Holiness then the people have True Discernment if the Spirit is of The Holy Spirit. Lack of Holiness or Clean before The Lord lacking in discernment.

  18. Thank you for posting this…..I believe God does not change so why would the prophets operate differently? And….it really bothers me that a lot of them now charge to hear a word from the Lord….I guess a TRUE word like REPENT from the Lord wouldn’t bring in much money.
    I pray that the true prophets would arise!

  19. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    DonaldN…

    Continuing to follow after God is a conscience choice. If we choose not to follow after God, we make the choice to separate ourselves from God and God must separate himself from us. God gave us a will and he will respect our choice. But, He will always continue to seek after us to bring us back. This has nothing to do with, “if I sin”.

  20. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Joy

    God does not Change. But are we going to say that we Know God and his ways completely? Are we so arrogant to think that we know everything about God and we are in a position to judge God if we think He has changed? Are we to believe that God has already revealed to us all that he is? Are we then saying that God is in no position to do something new, that may be dofferent from what we have seen before?

  21. Marius Burmeister Sep 4th 2013

    “Gods final call” by Mark Woodman and The Gift Of Prophecy which is part of a series will open eyes and ears to the true propets

  22. Thank you. So glad to hear you put forth this basic truth. To Hell with “theological scholasticism” and a cheap and easy “grace”! Let’s get back to the “old paths” the “old ways” to walk in for there is the pathway of Truth.
    Love that last line of yours!

  23. DonaldN Sep 4th 2013

    David Markham…
    You are exactly right. Just of add to it, a sin does not separate us from God. Sin does separate us. It is what we choose to pursue. If we follow after our sinful nature and desire things of the flesh, we are separating ourselves from the life of God. Committing a sin is not going to separate us. Refusing to repent and continuing to sin will bring separation.

  24. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Brother Dale,

    So what exactly is the “old ways”? Are you saying that God can’t reveal anything new to us? That we have it all figured out. Please explain what you mean by “cheap and easy Grace”. Should we not know more about God than the generations that went before us. Did God stop revealing Himself to man 100 years ago? 500 years ago? 1,000 years ago? When exactly did God stop being God to his people? When did God say that he is done revealing Himself to man?

  25. Andrew, thank you for posting this wonderful article!!
    It is coming up everywhere. I continue studying on the 2 roads. Proverbs 14:12, 16:25 – Before everyman lies a wide and pleasant road that seems right but ends in death.
    Matthew 7:13 – The narrow and wide gates.
    God continues bringing it to us so that those of us that can see can take it to those who cannot.
    Proverbs 10:17 – He who heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.
    My soul is grieving. I am in a state of Godly sorrow after once being a part of this movement. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 cor. 7:10.
    Thank you Jesus for setting me free. I am praying for others that will seek the truth as I did.

  26. The article only rightly addressed one aspect of the new testament prophet. Yes his message will still have the same intent as the OT prophet.

    But there IS a difference noted in the new testament. And it cannot be dismissed.

    the point that David Markham brought up is worth expounding upon. In the OT the mantle fell on one person who proclaimed the whole counsel of God to His people. In the NT Paul says that prophecy must be judged? Why? It was not needed to be judged in the OT and when it was, it was judged wrongly and ignored.

    It seems that in Paul’s command to judge prophecy, that a true NT prophet is one who initiates a true word from God, and then it is enlarged upon and purified (if needed) by those others called to judge. It is no longer a one man show and the NT prophet is required to submit to the mind of God among all his brethren.

    Evidently, the NT prophet was not meant to be always infallible otherwise there would be no need for the judging. I think this is deliberate on the part of God because ministry flows from His entire body, even though at times, a particular person may be a focal point through which God flows, as He sees fit.

    So, I am not in disagreement with the article in what it says about the message content, but it does leave the impression that the OT prophet and the NT prophet are the same in all respects. Such an conclusion is wrong. and certainly feeds into the pride of a prophet and can easily be the start of his rebellion.

    I appreciate Art Katz who trembled lest he spoke something that was his own instead of God. I think that is a prerequisite for all true prophets. The phonies today think nothing of adding the silliest of notions and proclaiming it as God’s.

  27. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Good word Reb!!

  28. David Markham
    I think this is a little off topic, but I want to address your comment to Brother Dale.

    As one who is totally committed to restoring old ways, I will give you my take on what that means. It does NOT mean that God is not opening up scripture and revealing a more complete truth.

    The old ways are the ways of the Jesus and the original apostles, of living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

    Todays’s version of Christianity is so mixed with traditions and unbelief and false understandings of scripture that it has all but destroyed any semblance to the Christianity embraced by the apostles.

    It is a Christianity focused only on God and His kingdom coming forth. It disentangles itself from all the mixture that has been brought into. It seeks to hear God afresh, and counts on Him revealing truths as they were meant to be understood.

    Therefore the NEW, is nothing but the OLD, but without the crap that men have added. It certainly allows for all the things you mentioned and embraces them when they are truly from God.

  29. Andrew and others, for some 20 years now, it has been spoken and confirmed that I have the gift of ‘prophet’ operating in my life…. And I must tell you that I have struggled with sin in my life…. So – I don’t believe the qualification of a sinless person only – being a prophet is accurate…. We are admonished in Scripture to ‘try the Spirit’…In other words, the Holy Spirit living within us is able to show us / confirm to us – whether or not the word delivered is true….

  30. We forget that most of today’s Christians, are like those Paul were speaking to, in his letters to the Corinthians. 1 Cor 3: 1-4 They are for the most part, carnal, not spiritual. So how can they exercise discernment of knowing the false from the true, when most want theirs ears tickled.

    Paul also wrote, that in using the gifts; we are not all prophets, but we can all prophecy. The Gift is the Holy Spirit, and He prophecies through whom He chooses. When that gift is used through that born again vessel, that doesn’t mean he (the vessel ) is a prophet. The reality is that there really aren’t that many REAL prophets that “come out of hiding.” If we’ re looking for the wrong kind, and the Word says that the Lord will give us the desires of our heart, don’t you think, that’s what we get when we really aren’t seeking the Truth.

    Like I said earlier, we ALL need to grow up “in Christ.”

  31. Sherry Ann Todd Sep 4th 2013

    I do agree with this article 100 percent,being in the prophetic ministry myself i must say that living in righteousness for any prophet is of upmost importance and seeking to receive money in exchange for giving a prophey is ridiculous and on the rise,i dont know any bible prophet that says sow a seed of $1000 and hear the word of the Lord,yet nowadays seed sowing and soap selling in pushed…by their fruits you shall know them…Grace and peace to all..

  32. Also, we must remember, there is a difference in you and I, than those of yesterday. We are born again from above. We have a treasure in these earthen vessels. The Spirit of GOD is within. Even the disciples were not born again. They had delegated authority of Jesus. The Spirit came upon them. You and I have him completely, the whole of Him. We just need to grow in our understanding.

  33. Sherry Ann Todd Sep 4th 2013

    @reb…..very deep word you have noted….blessings

  34. Maybe a distinction needs to be made regarding the gift of prophecy – which is available to many, and the gift of a functional prophet – who also uses the gift of prophecy.

    The NT speaks of those who prophesy AND of prophets

    I do not believe they are the same, though they can overlap

    This seems to be on topic since we are discussing what a prophet is, if not, this post can be deleted.

    Comments? What are the distinctives, if any?

  35. Joseph Sep 4th 2013

    Jus read this. Completely agreed. This is a topic I’ve been studying for a while now. I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me in my research and understanding and the evidence I came across for so many so-called “mighty men-of-God” ticking all the biblical criteria of being false prophets/teachers was not shocking at all. I mean I heard somewhere that around 25% of the N.T is a warning against false teachers and false prophets (will have to check this out, of course), and considering the N.T is directed at the church specifically, then these warnings God gave must be ABOUT THE CHURCH. False doctrine and seductive spirits among the people of God! ‘Deceiving the very elect’. ALWAYS refer to scripture. If it ain’t there, ask God why!.

  36. 100% Zululander Sep 4th 2013

    It appears that the OT Prophets were judged by whether their prophecy came to pass or not. This is because there was no written word to judge them by.
    NT prophets can prophesy & everyone can judge them as we have the Word of God to judge them by & if they say something personal that is not in the bible then the same judgement criteria prevail….it must come to pass. .
    To me, Kevin is correct & it’s uncomplicated, not needing books to explain thus complicating it.

  37. Dalekaren Edwards Sep 4th 2013

    This article was very helpful as are the comments. I have been disturbed by the tendency of today’s “prophets” towards grandiosity and hyperbole. It’s always “MORE” and “BIGGER.” I have stopped reading most. But at the same time I see in I Corinthians 14:3 the description of prophecy as that which edifies, encourages, and consoles. I personally have benefited from words spoken over me that are concerned with other issues than sin that needs to be exposed or repented of. May I never refuse that which rebukes and reproves–“it is oil upon my head.”
    I believe you are right on about money. The proverbs say, “Buy truth and do not sell it,” and God forbid that we should be like Balaam!
    I have several times spoken what I believed to be God’s Word–but when tested by the hearer, it was rejected and I thought their prayerful conclusion wiser than my own. I thank God for His grace and forgiveness.
    I do not believe God would have me stoned–the standard for an OT prophet–but to be washed in His blood and seek Him all the more deeply.

  38. Yes, and Amen! Concise and to the point.
    Many folks today have embraced “half-truths” and impose a limit on so-called prophets to the role of “encourager/fortune teller”. Too many folks just want their ears tickled with pleasant words. Jeremiah (and II Timothy) indicate this is error and a hallmark of false prophets and false teachers. However, we want folks to be encouraged, but we also want them to be real repenters pursuing righteousness. That is a fundamental role of a real prophet.

  39. Angela Wacker Sep 4th 2013

    In the days of old God spoke through his prophets, but now through his son Jesus Christ. The ripping of the veil that separated the common people from God allows us all to communicate directly with him. The occasions when someone has approached me with “a word from God” sometimes end in the reaction, well, that is not what God has been telling me… Not too many self proclaimed prophets are actually hearing a word of God for others. We all responsible to humble ourselves to come to the throne and hear his words for ourselves.

  40. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Sue Walsh,

    But two very different covenants. The Old Testament was written to Jews under Jewish law ( old covenant). The New Testament was written to all believers under the new covenant!! A huge difference indeed. And approx 400-500 years separate the two.

  41. DonaldN Sep 4th 2013

    1 Peter 1.14

  42. Daniel Sep 4th 2013

    This is an excellent article, too many times the term “prophet” is despised today because of failed prophecies and false prophets. I believe this is why Paul said to “not despise prophecy”. Sadly the history of the ekklesia (church) shows that eventually it was despised enough that it was driven out. It’s quite possible that if the ministry of the prophets had been allowed to continue on into the 3rd and 4th centuries that the ekklesia might not have been so ready to join hands with the world (Constantine) and compromised in the exact way the apostles warned them not to. Many people today still don’t understand the what a prophet is meant to do, they simply think he fortells the future. Let me ask all here then: how often was personal prophecy given throughout the Scriptures? It was given at times, but honestly it was sparingly done. The prophets role was to hear the voice of the Lord, to see what He wished them to see, and to speak it out to the people. The gift of prophecy is very much spontaneous, whereas the prophet could be very calculated and his words exacting. God would guide him to do something, sometimes explaining why, other times not. However, there is one overridding feature of the prophet that is mostly overlooked, his main ministry was to call the people back to the covenant they had agreed to with the Lord. Turning them from their wicked ways many times were simply turning them back to God’s way, back to original Word He has spoken. For the Jews under the Old Covenant it was back to Torah, for us today who are “in Christ” and under the New Covenant it it back to Jesus and His commandments. In both cases (Old and New) it was returning to Lord, to loving Him and obeying Him. John the apostle summarized prophecy quite well when He wrote, “The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus”. If this is the case then the prophet can be no less than the embodiment of that testimony.

    What is my point? My point is that today many are so hung up on foretelling the future, that we forget that the essence of prophecy is to testify concerning Jesus Christ. The Spirit says today to the churches, “You have left your first love, see from where you have fallen and repent, doing your first works”. Oh and what are these first works, but what we call today the honeymoon of the soul? When all was so fresh, new, and living, when Jesus was everything that mattered to us. The word was not a chore, grace was costly, and every drop of Christ’s blood was precious to us. We were filled with love, and because we loved Him Who is very Truth itself we hated everything that was evil, every lie and deception. Holiness was simply being set-apart to Him, kept unspotted from the world because we didn’t want anything between us and God, us and Christ. We came out and were separate SO THAT He would receive us (2 Cor. 6)

    The prophet today will lift up their voice about these things, they will correct, rebuke, exhort, encourage, and comfort. They will speak what they have seen and heard concerning Christ, and they will call God’s people, His bride, back to faithfulness to their Lord and King. They will call them away from spiritual adultery, away from every sin that so easily entangles, so that they all may run this race with endurance, with their eyes set on Jesus! The covenant is this: I will write My teachings on their hearts, and from the least to the greatest of them, they all will know Me”. Until the Lord’s people know Him, the prophets job is not done. We made a covenant to the know the Lord, each and every one of us, and most have not pressed on to know Him, they have forsaken the fountain of living waters and dug for themselves broken cisterns. Now the prophetic word is, “Return to Jesus, come back to your first love, be led by the Holy Spirit and stop grieving Him.”

    Does any of this sound like petty personal prophecy? It is showy? Not it is turning them from their sins and their wicked ways, back to the living God.

  43. Sandi Preston Sep 4th 2013

    Thanks so much for the article; it’s something I’ve been troubled about for several years. I’ve had many “words” spoken over me and not one has come to pass. The caveat seems to be, it will come to pass if you have faith. To me, the most frightening verses in the Bible are Matt 7:21-23. Those spoken of must be “believers” I can’t imagine an atheist doing these works. Most Christian churches teach that all you need to do is go forward, accept Jesus as your Savior, and you’re good to go. Everybody sins and you are now covered by His blood. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the parable of the sower and the soils shows us that only 1/4 of the world will be saved. This seems to confirm that the way is narrow and there aren’t many who find it. We have church programs to help with alcoholism, drug addiction, addiction to porn, marriage difficulties, etc but little is said about the root cause: SIN. We can all agree that homosexuality is wrong but see our own sins as less offensive to God. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. I’m not sure what it will take to bring this country to its knees but I think we’ll find out soon. I heard a popular pastor say that he was sure about a pre-trib rapture because his God would never let his children and grand-children suffer through such a time. How have we gotten to the point in America where we seek only the blessings of God but miss the rest? Perhaps it’s because the (profits) are prophesying that the Lord wants us prosperous, healthy, intelligent, successful, beautiful, fulfilled and; ultimately, lost.

  44. Refreshing and much needed instruction. I couldn’t believe I was reading something that was so in line with what I’ve always professed to be true. It’s so hard to believe that the church has gone so far from the true Gospel and that people, even pastors, will alienate you for believing such things.

  45. Gregg Walker Sep 4th 2013

    Andrew and brothers and sisters. There is a bigger and clearer portion of Scripture than any of those mentioned in this article. Read Deuteronomy 13. Period. God put that in the Torah for all time. Israel was to use that and we can use it today. Anyone who comes along, no matter how charismatic, how well-meaning, and how nice, if he thinks he is a prophet but teaches us to go against any of the commandments of God as written in His Law, that prophet is false. God said it, I didn’t.
    Most of you have to read the 10 commandments again. What do you do with #4? If you follow the day that the Catholic church ordained as the New Sabbath (sunday), you are ignoring God’s 4th Commandment. If any prophet comes along and wants you to keep this day instead of the original Sabbath (7th Day or saturday), he is not speaking for the God of the Bible. Read it for yourself. We need to expect more false prophets as we get closer to the end times!

  46. Timithia Sep 4th 2013

    A timely word and much appreciated!

  47. James Sep 4th 2013

    So very true.. I have heard many telling others how great God says they are. How loved and perfect they are. How God wants to bless them with great prosperity, a big house, new car, or even a new mate. Doing this they feel welcomed and important, and the other persons want to hear more. This type of prophecy is of man at the least, and even of the devil. Bible prophets were not readily accepted, but rather feared in many instances, but the things they prophesied were of God.

  48. Daniel Sep 4th 2013

    Gregg Walker,

    Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

    Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest, He is the consummation of the Torah, in Him is found the fulfillment of all that was written. We follow Jesus and obey His commands, we labor only for one thing: to enter into the rest of God (seated with Christ in heavenly places). What you are saying is go back to the shadow, why do that when we have the substance?

  49. grant Sep 4th 2013

    Greetings. Eph 4:10-14 tells us that the ministry of the prophet as well as the other gifts mentioned, were given to edify the body of Christ.It says in the amplified bible that prophets are inspired preachers and expounders of Gods will.It does not mention about the seer which was a calling in the old testament samuel was both prophet and a seer, Gad,and Ido. were seers and so on. Some prophets were seers also, some were not.As in John the baptist case how many visions was he given mabey one.Yet jesus said he John was the greatest of the prophets, yea even more than a prophet.he preached repentance,and the comming of the messiah. I guess my question is this.If the prophets ministry hasn,t changed from old testament to new why then did Jesus give it as a ministry gift along with others that were not in the OT?.It says it was given to the church to edify till we all come in to the unity of the faith,As far as convicting of sin, does not the bible say that the Holy Spirits job ,He comes to convict of sin,righteousness and judgment,I always think of Elisha when he asked for a double portion of Gods spirit be upon him,We have that today in the new testament church,being born again and then being endowed with power from on high,when we get in to trouble the holy spirit is there to keep us from falling if we let him. One concern I have is this ,and I believe to be a major problem in the church.How many ministers, I mean people who stand in the ministry gifts we read about in 1 cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11. Are they put there because they have a degree ,or intelectual or vocal skills and so on,or are they there because they have the anointing to stand in that office.yes we need prophets as much as we need all the other ministry gifts,but when they don,t have the anointing to stand there and that goes for all the other ministry gifts including worship leaders,all hell can break loose. May the Lord enlighten us all.amen!

  50. I agree absolutely….after all it’s the word of God that is saying it. Have always felt this way, and really feel that I have not heard a true word from the Lord, in the prophetic utterance sense, for MANY years….just modern day flattery and fluff, for the most part. May God restore the true prophetic word to us in our time…we need it now more than we ever have I think. Thanks for posting, Andrew!

  51. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    It appears that Gregg Walker wants to live under the law. I hope I am wrong in this assumption.

  52. Sue Walsh Sep 4th 2013

    Amen Gregg! Daniel be really challenged and watch these two teachings. In this end time hour Abba Father is calling His sheep back to the origins of their faith. The doctrines of man have infiltrated the church and taken us away from the truth of the Torah. You see it hasn’t been done away, or nailed to a cross or been replaced by grace.

    The Sabbath Day

    v=5O1508ad1ZA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5O1508ad1ZA

    Sunburned.

    v=5Mfb9gcB3lM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5Mfb9gcB3lM

    Shalom

  53. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Wow Sue Walsh

    You really don’t appear to understand the New Covenant at all. Do you still perform animal sacrifice? “The Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) did.”

  54. Judith Eddy Sep 4th 2013

    Amazing article and I agree 100%. Everyone is so busy taking trips to heavenly realms and supposedly coming back with new revelations that when is there time to pray for and win the lost?
    So happy that the Holy Spirit showed me the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For years I was so tangled up in all the latest fads circulating. I thank God for His mercy in untangling the confusion through websites like this one and TLR and articles like the last two by Kevin K.
    I am so relieved and it is huge confirmation since I have been asking this very question for awhile. Yes it is really just that simple – so simple we can fall over it to get to something the Lord never intended for us to learn. The un-learning is the kicker for sure!
    While everyone is waiting for Elijah again, Jesus told us that Elijah had already come in the person of John the Baptist. see Matthew 17: 10-13
    The message is the same whether on Mt Carmel, at the Jordan, or right here where we live.
    ***Matt 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say Repent: for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand”.

    Matt 17:3, 5-8 ( parentheses with names are my add)
    ” And behold there appeared unto them (Peter, James, John) Moses and Elias talking with Him (Jesus).
    …While he (Peter) yet spake, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    And when the disciples heard it they fell on their face and were sore afraid.
    And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.”

    Again in Rev 19:10 ( parentheses with name are my add)
    “And I (John) fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
    John does this again in Rev 22: 8-9 and in this verse the messenger mentions that he is one of his fellow servants and of John’s brethren the prophets, and of them who keep the sayings of this book and that he is to worship God! period
    It is our obedience that says we love God. To say we are worshiping God without obedience is a lie…
    ***Thank you Andrew for loving the saints and God!!

  55. Gregg Walker Sep 4th 2013

    To Daniel. I appreciate your comment, but as Yeshua said, “You do err knowing neither the Word nor the Power of God.” Until you understand that Jesus’ commands are the “same” as God’s commands (commandments). They have never been done away with – not talking about animal sacrifices to “cover our sins”, but the Feasts of the LORD, the Sabbath and the other elements of God’s Law that He says are for his people to keep and do “Forever”. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Why does not only the Torah tell us to keep His commandments forever, but also Joshua reiterated this, as did Solomon (Eccles. 12:13), Ezra, Nehemiah, Malachi 4:4, Paul, John (I John 5),James, and the book of Revelation all talk about continuing to Keep God’s commandments. Yeshua said, “if you love me, keep my commandments.” He was speaking and doing all that the Father told him to say and do. He did not have his own “new” commandments. The Bible tells us exactly what “SIN” is: I John 3:4 . If you break any of the commandments that you are “able” to keep, you commit sin. Period. God doesn’t expect you to do any of the things that are required to be done at the Temple, by a priest, or by women if you are a man (and vice versa). The New Covenant that Yeshua brought is correctly translated from the Hebrew as the “Renewed Covenant”. He came to make the way for the lost sheep of Israel to be able to “return” to God’s ways and His commandments. His death on the cross provided that way. That is why the world had to hear this “Good News”. The door was open for all men to come close (or draw near) to the God of Israel, but you don’t get to accept the payment on your account and then go on to do your own way. You had to “return” to God and keep His commandments. They are the ONLY WAY God has ever given us to draw near to Him and to treat our fellow men the way he wants us to. Remember Yeshua summed up the entire Law, Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. I know you mean well, but you cannot understand the whole Bible by just focusing on the New Testament. In fact, you can’t truly understand it until you read, learn and do the commandments. In these last days, God is bringing His people (those who love Him) back to his original way. That is why Reveleation 12:17 and 14:12 talk about those who “keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus”. I am not Jewish in any way and not a 7th Day adventist or any set denomination. Just a believer in the Yehovah, the One True God; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel. Yeshua, his Son was and is the Messiah and is coming soon. Repent and turn back to God the way He wants you to (see entire Bible for how). This is not to be taken lightly. Read the Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy) without commentary and with a heart open for God to teach you. See also Psalm 119 for How God looks at his statutes, judgments, laws, etc. Time is short to wake up. See for yourself.

  56. David Markham Sep 4th 2013

    Gregg Walker,

    It saddens me greatly that you are trying to live under the Law of Moses and also accept the messege of Grace. Mixing Law with Grace is a dangerous thing. Christ was the fulfillment of the Law. Why is that so hard to understand. The Law brought us to Christ. The Law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) did. The Law was mans idea. They begged God for Laws. So God gave them a Law which they could not meet. God’s plan through Jesus was relationship, not Law. Read Galations, Paul warned them of going back under the Law. He even called them “Foolish” for doing so.

  57. Andrew Sep 4th 2013

    I notice that we have 2 errors rampant in this thread – basically having a war with each other.

    One is “HEBREW ROOTS” – the return of the ‘Judaizers’ who want us all to go back under the Torah and become legalists.

    The other is the “Hyper-Grace” crowd who want us to stop preaching on “SIN”.

    Thankyou to both, but I will stick to the actual Bible.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom.

  58. Renee Sep 4th 2013

    Gee…..seems like almost every time I wanna post a comment brother Barry Schmidt has gotten there before me and saved me the trouble, heh.

    Beautifully said, Brother. Thank you for saying it so much better than I could!! 🙂

  59. D Helms Sep 4th 2013

    David Wilkerson was a true NT Prophet and spoke against all the ‘drama’ and sometimes sorcery that masquerades as “prophetic.

    Lets not get carried away with prophets calling out sin…That almost destroyed the church in the past. It made us bigoted unloving people who were sanctimonious and self righteous.

    Lets not forget that true prophets (Baalam) used bad tactics and techniques and TURNED HIMSELF INTO A FALSE PROPHET

    I came out of CI…Christian International. Bill Hamon.
    I wias there in 1988 as we all were soooooo excited that the “prophets were coming into the church in larger numbers”. I can honestly say that I had not and still have not met a well known minister as humble as Dr Hamon. However when his techniques are compared to Scripture….they do not match.

    Modern Day prophet ‘room” where you sit for “presbytery”…..which is actually a “READING” and
    sometimes is even called so.at times.

    These people have good motives and a good heart but I noticed SEVERAL checkpoints they breezed by and this is what created a delusional prophetic movement and even diviniation at times. (most times its imaginations and something good to say).

    CheckPoints
    1. we should not treat prophets as fortune tellers
    2. JUST because you feel something…doesnt mean
    its GOD. There is a devil and there is a mass
    deception going on. READ JUDE….he warns us
    seems OPPOSITE to this teaching of last day
    revival where its encouraged to LET GO AND LET
    GOD…..well they have let go and let everything in
    house.
    2. God was not and is not raising up prophets any
    more than he always did NOTE: alot of error
    occurs when we include LAST DAYS to everything
    as if God has changed the rules for us.
    3. Prophets are not therapists or counselors.. There
    are great Christian Counselors for that.
    4. You DO NOT close your eyes and see what flows
    UP from your inner man….or inner imagination or
    in worst case….outside demon
    5. We fall for all this because of the FALSE
    TEACHING of a big last day revival. Nowhere
    in scripture is that taught. Even those aware of the
    false prophecy in the church wont give up their
    Golden Calf …..we have to face that even the
    Pentecostal movement of 1900’s had african
    religions mixed in…..if you have seen a voodoo
    ceremony on Natn’l Geographic…it looks identical
    to the old fashioned Pentecostal service where they
    would spin around to “get the spirit” and go in
    trances……
    6. We need to realize this deception and infiltration of
    the body of Christ started way back in 1900’s for
    us in the US.
    7. If you look up Khandali religion (from India) you will
    see a service that looks like modern day
    Charismatic meetings.

  60. Sue Walsh Sep 4th 2013

    Shalom David

    Let’s go back to the verses where we find fulfill. Test very carefully what is being said. Does it really say: I did not come to destroy but to destroy the Law?

    Verse 18 says the Law will not be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.

    .Matthew 5

    17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

    Fulfill in Grrek is pleroo which means to make full or fill up

    Now look at the 7 Feasts of Yah. Yeshua fulfilled the first four spring feasts at his first coming:

    *** Passover – pictures the Death of Yeshua
    *** Feast of Unleavened Bread – pictures the Burial of Yeshua
    *** Feast of First Fruits – pictures the Resurrection of Yeshua
    *** Pentecost – pictures the Descent of the Holy Spirit ( Ruach)

    We wait for him to fulfill the last three at his second coming:
    *** Feast of the Trumpets
    *** Feast of Atonement
    *** Feast of Tabernacles – he’ll tabernacle amongst us. Wow!

    Shana Tova

    Shalom

    Sue

  61. Andrew Sep 4th 2013

    Which is why we walk in the Spirit.

    It is those who are “led by the HOLY Spirit” that are not under law.

    Welcome to the New Covenant.

    -Andrew Strom

  62. Russell Judd Sep 4th 2013

    Just wanted to say I enjoy your emails and updates. Your right on the button. Good work.

    May Yah bless you for saying it how it is.
    Russ

    PS. Sue above… there are 4 Autumn feasts… everyone misses the last one because its the 8th day after Tabernacles (7 days). Its called the Last Great Day (translated) “…. on the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation”. Lev 23:36. It would make sense that its 4 and 4 wouldn’t it? My guess is its fulfilment is 1000 years away however 🙂 Good work though Sue… given you even know there are feasts.

  63. Sue Walsh Sep 4th 2013

    Hi Russell, yes I did forget that one, eh? Thanks. 🙂

    Hey Andrew hello bro…. Yeshua was a Jew, wasn’t he? He kept the law… so what is good for him is good for me…

    One thing I desire and this is what I seek to dwell in the house of Elohim all the days of my life.

    I seek not to turn left and be lawless ( which is sin) or turn right which is legalism
    ( salvation by works) I seek to go straight ahead along the very narrow path of my bridegroom Yeshua. Holding his hand in true covenant relationship…

    Shalom

    Sue

  64. DonaldN Sep 4th 2013

    Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Sue Walsh… how can you quote a scripture, leave off a vital part of it and say that Jesus did not fulfill the law.
    How can you ignore the rest of the new testament writing that clearly warns against putting ourselves back under the law.

    Concerning worshiping on the sabbath. How can you be sure that the pagan gregorian calendar’s 7th day, being Saturn Day, coincides with the actual 7th day of the Jewish calendar of approximately 8 thousand years ago? It has been change many times. What if it is 1 day off and you are actually worshiping on the 6th day?
    Actually, if you look at the original command to remember the Sabbath, you will notice the true meaning God had.
    We were to remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. The Sabbath day we are to remember is the original 7th day that God rested from His work. THEN God gave the 7th day of the week as a reminder for us to remember the 7th Day that God rested.
    We are not to worship a command, we are to obey the command and understand why God commanded it.

  65. Andrew Sep 4th 2013

    Jesus gained for us what the Bible calls a “better” covenant.

    The walk of the HOLY SPIRIT living in us, leading us in paths of righteousness and clean conscience before God.

    Not the walk of the “letter”.

    The walk of the Spirit.

    One leads to death. The other to life.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  66. This is much needed. Thank you for posting this article.
    I am concerned, however, that what has been posted here, with many of the comments, be eventually lost among the many articles. Is there a way this can be put into a booklet, or book, form, so that it does not get lost? We very much need this in a permanent form that can be referrred to again and again, with all of the common arguments answered clearly.

    I live just two miles from one church that is a hotbed of teaching contrary to this, whose name means “House of God.” Very famous world-wide, and their teaching is directly contrary to what is being taught here.

    It is very difficult for me when I am alone in a group or church, and am the only one to believe this. With physical problems such as an unhealed fractured upper neck, with TBI, and an unreliable memory, constant severe pain and CFS. I need the information here presented with me in writing. If I could, I would do it myself, slowly. My disabilities do help greatly in one respect in that I am not so prone to rely on my own abilities, and then commit the abomination of calling my words God’s word.

    I have wrestled with this prophet question for 40 years, since at least 1968, and have rarely seen it put in such a clear manner.
    I have not found any church teaching the truth in this area. It is so very sad.
    As for myself, I have found great encouragement in Art Katz, especially his book The Prophetic Call.
    When, rarely, I feel that God would have me speak prophetically, I get exceedingly concerned lest I not state God’s exact word, in His own way. To use the vernacular, I get “scared to death”. God’s word is so very holy, and must be taken as holy, separate from everything ordinary.

    A verse helpful to me is Jeremiah 23:18, comparing the true from the false prophets:
    “For who has stood in the council of YHWH, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?”.

    The best prophets often will be ones who speak very rarely, but are more familiar with the heavenly council. NOT charismatic “visits to heaven”, but something so very holy as not to be spoken of often at all.

    One problem many of us here may have, as I feel some here are at least genuine prophets in training, is that there are no churches that will validate us in ministry. John the Baptizer was not validated by the church in his day. Either was Elijah or Jeremiah. Uriah the prophet either. But some of our best, such as Art Katz, have said validation by the church is necessary so we do not have “self-ordained” prophets, which is spoken against in Hebrews 5.

    The way I read my Bible, in places such as Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 13, those who have become false prophets will not be found later in heaven. That is what the Bible says.

    Again, to repeat myself, it would help many of us here if this can be put in permanent form, using many of the comments, so that we can spread this desperately needed explanation, and have it ready when challenged by so many

    Thank you!
    Anna

  67. St John Baptist Sep 4th 2013

    1) THE BEGINNING AND THE END THE FIRST AND THE LAST THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA = FIFTY EIGHT = {0} TEN. THE COMPLETE AND INFINITE CIRCLE OF LIFE.

    1) THE SEAL – OF THE – LIVING – GOD = 21/3 = 777.
    2) THE BEGINNING AND THE END = 21/3 = 777.
    3) FIRST AND LAST = 12/21/3 = 21/3 = 777.
    0) THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA = 19 = 0.

    1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = {0}. The {0} represents completion, the symbol of eternity and infinity. Also: 777 777 777 and 0 = 7777777777 The Complete and Infinite Perfection.

    How When Where and Why this come to be and where is the proof = 48 and/or 12 and/or 21 and/or 3 = 21/3 = 777. Again, FORTY EIGHT = 0 The Complete Symbol of Eternity and Infinity.

    2) Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh {7} day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh {7} day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh {7} day and sanctified {0} it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

    For beginners: Now we all know for a fact the number seventh {7} blessed {7} and Holy {7} is sanctified {0}, that the zero {0} is not only sanctified but also the complete symbol of infinity and eternity, also for beginners we all now know that the 777 is The Seal of The Living God. Any questions feel free to ask, but, this is just to plain and simple not to understand. Reason/rationality and common sense/logic is all it takes, so start using it.

    1) Genesis = {7} 2:1 = {21 and/or 3} = 21/3 = {777}.
    2) 1-Seventh 2-Seventh 3-Seventh = 21/3 = {777}.
    3) Moreover; Seventh = 7. Day = 3 = {777}.
    0) Also: Seventh Day = 7777777 – 777 = {0}.

    Complete Infinite perfection also known as Good.
    Let’s prove it 777 777 777 0 = 7777777777.

    3) Let us, twist this around a little bit and see what comes up next:

    {1 Genesis} 2:1 Thus the {2 heavens} and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the {3 seventh} day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the {4 seventh} day from all His work which He had done. Then God {5 blessed} the {6 seventh} day and {7 sanctified it, {8 because} in it He rested from all His work which God had {9 created} and made. This is the {0 history} of the {1 heavens} and the earth when they were {2 created}.

    Okay, we got eleven characters with seven {7} digits each including {1 Genesis} the first one of them, we got one character the 7 in line which is {Sanctified} = 0. again Perfect Sanctified Infinity. 1 and 7 = seventeen = 7777777777 = Complete and Perfect Infinity.

    Remember; We had already use 1 {Genesis} and 7 {Sanctified} two of the twelve {12} characters which also = 21 and/or 3 = 21/3 = 7 7 7. The Seal of The Living God. So { } 2 3 4 5 6 { } 8 9 0 1 2 are left. Notice how perfect they are just split right on the middle, a perfect balance aka; Good.

    2) Heavens, 3) Seventh, 4) Seventh, 5) Blessed, 6) Seventh, 8) because, 9) Created, 0) History, 1) Heavens, 2) Created = {0} Sanctified = 7777777777. Again, a Complete Perfection. Also: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 = 28 = {0}. Complete and Infinite Perfection. Again, Sanctified = 0 Seventh = 7 = 7777777777. The Complete and Perfect Sanctified.

    0) If you still don’t be-lie-ve your eyes, let’s go through it once again with a mignifying glass.

    1) {Genesis 2:1 = 777}.
    2) {Thus the = 7}.
    3) {heavens = 7}.
    4) {and the earth, and = 77}.
    5) {all the host of them = 7}.
    6) {were finished. And on = 7777777777}.
    7) {the seventh day God ended = 777}.

    1) {His work which He had done and He rested on the = 777}.
    2) {seventh = 7}.
    3) {day from all His work = 7777777777}.
    4) {which He had done. = 77}.
    5) {Then God = 7}.
    6) {blessed the seventh = 7777777777}.
    7) {day and sanctified = 7}.

    1) {it. because in it He rested = 777}.
    2) {from all His work which God had = 7}.
    3) {created = 7}.
    4) {and made. = 7}.
    5) {This is the history of the heavens and the = 7}.
    6) {earth when they were = 7777777777}.
    7) {created = 7}.

    777-7-7-77-7-7777777777-777 — 777-7-7777777777-77-7-7777777777-7 — 777-7-7-7-7 7777777777-7 = 67 Sixty Seven = {0} Complete and Infinite Perfection. Also three sets of sevens = 7 7 7 and or 21/3 = 7 7 7. The Seal of The Living God. And not one single child/digit/letter was let behind.

    Father God the creator of the heavens and of the earth owns the numbers. The first 1 and the last 0 and/or the first 9 and the last 0 {1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0- and/or 9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0}. The 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Heads = 28 = 0 Ten Horns.

    This is what the word the will the wisdom and understanding of the beginning and the end, {the life and the death}, the first and the last, {the numbers = ten, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0 = ten horns}, the alpha and the omega, {God’s word – will – and wisdom = 21/3 = 777} means.

    Now; Where all this come from? either I am, who I claimed to be, St John The Baptist, {Lion of The Tribe of Judah = 21/3 = 777}, angel, servant and last messenger of The Father of Heaven {God}, sent into the world, {earth planet hell}, with the last message of good news and/or final warning to men kind the human race and people of this world, or I just figure this out all by myself, which is it? Are you people going to start listen or not just yeah!!

    {0} Revelation 13:17 {12/21/3 = 777} And that no one may buy or sell except one who has not {the seal 7} or {the name 7} of {the creator 0} , or the number of {his name 7} = The Trinity = 777 = 0.

    {0} Revelation 13:18 {777} {Here is Wisdom 3}. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the {Creator 7}, {for it is the number of God 21/3}: His number is 777.

    1) GOD’S WORD – WILL – AND WISDOM = 21/3 = 7 7 7.
    2) FATHER — SON — AND HOLY GHOST = 21/3 = 7 7 7.
    3) THE SEAL — OF THE LIVING — GOD = 21/3 = 7 7 7.
    0) What a — twisted mind — I have = 21//3 = 7 7 7.

    I Got God’s Number, and/or I Got your number God, and/or God, I got you Number = 7 7 7.

  68. watchful Sep 4th 2013

    Amen Andrew. And amen to David Markham, reb and D Helm, you’ve expressed my thoughts on this. I will also add that there has been a change of priesthood, the new covenant is of a new order altogether. (And Law is for the unrighteous, of which the followers of Jesus are not – I hope!)

  69. DonaldN Sep 4th 2013

    St John Baptist…Wow, that is a lot of 7s.
    I think I will stick to
    “2 Cor 11:3
    But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
    I am sure that the stupidest person on earth can still understand the salvation that Jesus has for us through His blood.

  70. Healing balm Sep 5th 2013

    This writing from Kevin has truth, but there is much that can be added and cautioned. Vita wrote that”some have God’s heart concerning sin, but don’t have God’s heart of love.” Others have also added their wise words that point to a huge difference between the individual in NT and OT.

    We must learn the voice of the Beloved, so other voices will not entice us. IF we can be led astray, because we don’t really know the Good Shepherd’s voice, we Will be fooled. Even true words can be of a wrong spirit. I was given words by a stranger who was praying for me in a meeting. What he spoke was true about me and he could not have known the facts, but he had an unclean spirit that made me move away rapidly. It was not Jesus!!

    Watchman Nee taught on “Brokenness” and its importance. I did not understand what he was talking about until I was broken and humbled. It is brokenness that causes us to recognize the true in others as Jesus only reveals Himself through broken vessels. It is brokenness that allows us to minister Jesus to others.

    I also have seen the dead bodies from harsh ministers who say they are only the mail-man bringing God’s words and once delivered their responsibility is done. No, no, no!! This is false.
    We either minister by laying down our lives for the brothers and sisters with the very nature and character of Jesus, Or we best go home!

  71. angelCharlie Sep 5th 2013

    dear St John Baptist

    Rev 1 to 22 has ALREADY been Completed.

    Revelation was mostly written for the people at that time, NOT for some future event/s thousands of years to come.

    Of course Jesus is coming back again.. & new Jerusalem on this earth still to come,, this is what we wait for,, in the meantime we Rule & Reign with Christ until His enemies are under His footstool and the completion of His Bride, when we will meet Him in the air.

    ~the number systems of God are hidden things and personally i wouldn’t waste my time looking there… instead, seek God and His Word.

  72. Andrew~~~
    I so much appreciated the original article you posted here, and many of the comments, such as Healing Balm’s caution just above.
    However, many have used this as a free place in which to post things that may or may not be correct, but are clearly off topic. And being so off topic, those posts have served to divert attention away from the original intent and topic when you first gave us this article to ruminate over. Because the original intent was thwarted, I do not believe the spirit behind some of the posts was proper.
    Apparently there are some here who have a burning need to let everyone know what is on their heart. But to do so as considering this place to be a free-for-all, open to anything, is contrary to what I believe you, Andrew, had originally intended.
    Maybe there could be separate places where these other issues could bbe discussed. However, for those of us who very much need to hear and have discussed the primary topic here, I simply cry at how your original intent has been thwarted. I sense Jesus’ displeasure in this.
    If you can bring us back on topic, and possibly summarize the important points brought up by various of us here, that would be greatly appreciated.
    Thank you so much for this article which is so vitally needed.
    God bless you!
    Anna

  73. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    Yes – I have just banned one of the most aggressive “Off Topic” post-ers on here. You are right.

    Let us keep this discussion ON TOPIC. Please!!

    -Andrew Strom

  74. Barry Schmidt Sep 5th 2013

    I believe in preaching sin- but I believe that is only the diagnosis. It is not the cure. A sick person comes into the specialists office ( the prophet of God is a specialist too is he not?) he says, I’m not feeling well and have been sick for some time. A prophet who preaches only sin and its horrendous consequences is like the specialist who says to the sick person- “You are sick with a fatal disease. ” a
    DAH!!!!!!

    It doesn’t take a spiritual person or even a man of God to tell a sinner he is sick with sin and is dying and going to Hades if he doesn’t stop sinning!!!!

    Any self made religious fanatic can do that!!! Even a hard nosed MUSLIM can do that!!!

    But it takes a man of God, a man filled with the Spirit, a man filled with Jesus Christ – a prophet after the Spirit and power of Elijah to preach the gospel that is the power of God u to salvation to everyone who BELIEVES!!

    When will the church finally take GODS ONLY CURE AND MEDICINE FOR SIN TO SINNERS- the gospel of His Son? Any moron can tell sinners sin is killing them!
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “B ut the righteous man shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16, 17 NASB)

  75. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    Barry – the NT shows again and again Jesus and the apostles preaching on SIN. Why? Because people do not know how SICK they are!

    When they realize how truly “sick”, they come running for the cure.

    Personally I preach BOTH – the sickness and the cure. Both are a must.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  76. Haven Sep 5th 2013

    One of them serves The Lord and one of them does not. The problem seems to be discerning which one serves The Lord and which one does not.

    It gets more transparent when you discern between what is holy and what is not.

  77. Barry Schmidt Sep 5th 2013

    Thank you Andrew That’s biblical my friend!
    The diagnosis and the CURE.
    As a prophet I am jealous that Jesus Christ in us – the ONLY hope of glory -has been relegated TO SECOND OR THIRD PLACE in the church behind preaching the diagnosis- Christ and Him crucified – that is what I am ready to defend or die trying.

  78. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    I agree with you, Barry. I preach on “Christ in us – the hope of glory” all the time. -Linking it to the “clean heart” and ‘clean conscience’ experience. Essential.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  79. Lightning Storm Sep 5th 2013

    The LORD will answer the people’s inquiries of a prophet ACCORDING TO THE IDOLS OF THE PEOPLE’S OWN SOULS.

    [Eze 14:4-10 KJV] 4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

    5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

    6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn [yourselves] from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

    7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

    8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

    9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

    10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh [unto him];

  80. Raksha Sep 5th 2013

    Thank you so much for bringing this out. So sad to say we are living in such a perilous time of compromise and apostasy, truth cannot be spoken. How is it possible to sugar coat TRUTH??? Tried it but failed!!! But I say, let truth be spoken, let the true prophetic that’s not pathetic, that prophetic that moves us towards HIM be given. Let him who gets offended, let him do so. Never seen a parent disciplining a child with words or with a rod, all smiling. If an earthly parent cannot display the so called gentleness and love that those who hate truth keep talking about “in love, in gentleness”, how do they expect the LORD of HOSTS to drip with honey while he is disciplining us. A gentle tongue breaks bones.(proverbs.25:15). Noticed something all who hate that discipline that leads to his holiness and righteousness, all who want to live on the broad way taking his name and word in vain, all who don’t want to be told “live right before his eyes”, have the same complaint, “they have no love, no gentleness” about the messenger. Just thought aloud of the 2 witnesses who prophesied in sackcloth (Revelation:11:3-10). They had fire in their mouth. The word of god says in v.10 they were such a torment to the inhabitants of the earth. Yes, Truth is torment to many. The truth about who god really is, the truth about the JESUS, john the apostle saw, the truth about repentance that leads to life, the truth about the overcoming church without blemish,the truth about his word, the truth about purity,holiness,righteousness, the truth about the holy bride, the heavenly jerusalem is torment to many.

  81. Daniel Sep 5th 2013

    Andrew,

    Which post was teaching hyper-grace? I did not read any (maybe I missed it?).

  82. Jane Milam Sep 5th 2013

    FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A REAL WORD OF TRUTH THAT IS JUST PLAIN SCRIPTURAL ON NEW TESTAMENT FUNCTION OF PROPHETS! I am so thankful to see something that is completely scriptural and reveal the whole counsel of God on this subject. This is the plain TRUTH and also it is this function that is really disdained in the “churches” because we are in such a time of mass confusion and spiritual apostacy in the western “churches”. When the Lord uses anyone to expose sin today which is clearly what Jeremiah 23 shows to be the TRUE prophet function…they are called judgemental or harsh or unloving….when in truth they are the most loving of all for they RISK all to speak the truth out of love for CHRIST and HIS body. They have a burning desire for returning to truth and to CHRIST and a passion for HIM to have the preiminance ALL things. Therefore, in a day when we are MAN CENTERED in everything….and have LOST the message and the power of the SPIRIT with many false gospels, the function of the ones who are truly prophets is that of RESTORATION! It is to call BACK to
    FIRST LOVE, FIRST WORKS, and the TRUE COST and CALL of a DISCIPLE with the TRUE GOSPEL! They have a passion for the word of GOD unlike many because it is placed in them like a FIRE by the SPIRIT of GOD. Jesus said that those that receive a prophet…..will receive a prophet’s reward. Why, because the message of the true prophet is RETURN….come back to HIM…the fountain of living waters! The humble and contrite are the ones who will receive a true prophet for they are the only ones who will not rise up and resist the truth. The messages to the churches in Revelation show us the whole picture of the SPIRIT releasing the messages to REPENT and RETURN! If we have bitten into the false gospels….we will find ourselves hating that function and opposing the ones that SEE to SPEAK in the midst of the true church. We do not understand the exhortation ( which include reproof and rebuke), edification ( building up with the TRUTH not just words to make us feel good) and comfort ( when we in need of comfort as we are truly dying and carrying our cross and following HIM and the cost is great)….we have been preached to that there is “no correction” no reproof and no rebuke in the words of prophesy…or the ministration of the prophet in this day of grace. The truth is this “HE IS THE SAME, YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER.”….if you read the prophets….you will find the SPIRIT of the PROPHET revealed….PSALM 69….”the whole picture….and the words “the zeal for thine house has eaten me up” is the testimony of JESUS…same in Revelation…same when he walked the earth and exposed all the false structures and words of the Pharasees..Matt. 23… We have not understood the LOVE of CHRIST for HIS BRIDE. It is pure and HOLY and the function of the prophet is one that is given to the PURE word, PURE LOVE of the SPIRIT, and the TRUTH of HIS word. So….why do we disdain this function in this day….I believe because we do not understand that it is like the PHYSICIAN when we are sick….the one who can diagnose and prescribe….so to speak…the one who has been given the UNCTION of the SPIRIT to do both and has been trained by the SPIRIT in the SCHOOL of the HOLY SPIRIT ( not man’s schools) and has devoured the word of GOD out of hunger for truth and knowing HIM. It is a FUNCTION that is identified as so important in the assembly of the body that 1Cor 14 says LET THEM SPEAK two or three! Then…..all may prophesy! The emphasis is here because of the carrying of the “voice of the HOLY SPIRIT…CHRIST in the midst of HIS church”…..it is the one gift that is to be COVETED the word says….and not DESPISED the word exhorts….it is should be LOVED by us all as it is the function to KEEP us in PRESENT tense reality with CHRIST…where are we TRULY….for the prophet SEES….what many do not see only because the SPIRIT bestows the ability for the WEALTH of the body. Nothing to do with the vessel with this function for the ministration of the SPIRIT is given by HIM for the building up of the body until all come to the FULL stature of CHRIST! Ephes. 4:11-16 SO clear on this….it is for the PERFECTION ( maturing, completion) of the body until all are grown UP into the FULLNESS of CHRIST in reality!

    Finally, Jesus expressed his heart towards those who are much like the attitude of those leading the body today….”you always stone…or kill those who are sent to help you”….today the prophet is among the body as a part of the body….not outside….because we are all BORN of the SPIRIT and are supernaturally knit by the new birth buy the Holy SPIRIT. So, the tendency because of the transition from prophets who lived apart from to those who are in the midst of….is to disdain the function…thinking and or saying these words….”who do you think you are….do you think that you are better than us”…even….”so you think that you are a prophet”as if there is some horrible hatred for that function….when in truth it is the gifting of the SPIRIT through the parts of the body given this function to bring restoration and HEALING and COMPLETION…maturity in the IMAGE OF CHRIST. It would not be mentioned in the five fold giftings as “foundational” if it were not in operation today as foundationally GIVEN by the SPIRIT for a SOLID footing to keep us on HIS foundation of TRUTH.

    Please read the article below and see what will help to UNDERSTAND this misunderstood function and also the confusion that surrounds all the FALSE ones! Just because the false ones exist and the word tells us plainly that the do and will exist….does not give us the right to cast out the true ones given by the HOLY SPIRIT to the body for true edification. One time through the prophets in the OT and you will understand the HEART of GOD….the heart of CHRIST is all through it and the love of the SPIRIT manifested in all the prophets is powerful….from all….and read HOSEA….the one to the backslidden BRIDE! Talk about love! Talk about TRUTH….and RESTORATION! (-: want a true HEALING today…seek out the function of the prophets in the midst of the church and listen to what the see and hear from the SPIRIT who still SPEAKS to the church! It will be a great blessing and it carries with it according to JESUS…reward for those who receive a TRUE prophet in the name of a PROPHET. ( who do not dispise the NAME…prophet)…selah

  83. Averyl Sep 5th 2013

    Jane, – I don’t agree that the Bride is back-slidden.
    In fact, she is making herself ready for the Bridegroom.

    Those who speak the words God gives them to utter, will include the call to unity of His Body, as in Ephesians 4:13.

    I have a fb page on this subject, – New Plymouth Church NZ.

  84. Sue Walsh Sep 5th 2013

    Shalom to all

    Having the Father’s law written on our hearts by His Spirit is the very heart of His New Covenant promise to us. We truly need to reread that law at this time in history. We need to hear the Father’s Torah commands with the ears of the Spirit. Like our forefathers, we too need to return, we need to weep and come to a place of true repentance and restoration….

    May all who celebrate the FEAST of Yom Teruah – Feast of Rosh HaShannah – be inscribed in the Book Of Life

    Sue

  85. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    No – we do not need to come under Torah again, Sue.

    We simply need to be truly LED by the Holy Spirit.

    Then we will fulfil the law by the SPIRIT – not the “letter”.

    That is the New Covenant in a nutshell.

    Please leave the “Torah Observant” Hebrew-Roots stuff off here. Sorry to be so blunt.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  86. Sue Walsh Sep 5th 2013

    Andrew I love you brother…

  87. GaryB Sep 5th 2013

    quote….Lets not get carried away with prophets calling out sin…That almost destroyed the church in the past. It made us bigoted unloving people who were sanctimonious and self righteous. quote……….

    It sure got John the Baptist in a lot of trouble calling out Herod’s sin with Herodias. In fact he spent time in prison and then lost his life over it.

    Come to think of it, Elijah was not well like either, or Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. etc. etc..

    I think the Prophets of Old were considered unloving, bigoted people of their day and time.

    GaryB

  88. AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

    WE NEED PROPHETS TODAY AND THOSE HAVE TO BE AS SIN-EXPOSING AS OT PROPHETS!!! TRUE PROPHETS ARISE!

    Thanks for that text, Andrew.

    GOD BLESS!

  89. Dear fellow pilgrims, just a few comments on this subject of prophet/prophecy.

    Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone of the House of God, as such He is The Prophet of all prophets.
    All the prophets in the old testament (whether we ‘see’ it or not) prophesied concerning Jesus Christ – they spoke of Him and desired Him to come (just as we should).

    The greatest of all the O.T. prophets was John the Baptist. In a very real sense John’s prophetic office and prophecies may well be described as a ‘summary’ of all before him.
    If this is the case, then it would be profitable to consider his:
    message; motive; intent; view of himself? – to name but a few details.

    And even more so, we must also consider how Jesus Christ operated as The Prophet. What was His:
    message; motive; intent; view of Himself (at this point -Phil. 2:5-8)?
    It has been said, but worth repeating, the testimony of Jesus (Christ) is the spirit of prophecy. – true prophetic utterance will always aid in bringing the speaker and hearer fully back to Jesus Christ who is Son of God and Son of man. For this is the desire/work/ motive of the Holy Spirit by which all true prophets operate.

    The following are some indications of a true prophet.
    True prophets will weep for those far from God or have turned back from the Lord.
    True prophets will tremble in holy fear before the God they are accountable to, and be reluctant to speak.
    True prophets will not seek anything but the glory of God revealed in Jesus Christ.
    True prophets though heard/read will but NOT be concerned about NOT being recognized or seen.
    True prophets will speak the truth in love, (not in sentimental soft sell, but in love for, Jesus their Lord first and foremost, and, love for His people, in order that they fully return from sin (whose end is death), self and spiritual shallowness.
    True prophets will hate what God hates and love what God loves.
    True prophets will ‘wash feet’ of (serve) others on knees if need be.

    Jesus is our example in all things. He did not hold back any punches, even from His own for whom He would lay down His life for.
    Wonderful Jesus. Love Him with fervent love. Press in to Him. Let nothing come between, even dear ones; guard your heart with all diligence. Overcome and be blessed forever.

  90. watchful Sep 5th 2013

    Amen to your post, Healing balm.

    I was blessed recently to cross paths with someone in whom the love of God and uncompromising truth was melded into one….the only way I can explain it that this person IS love. As is the Father and as was Jesus when He walked this earth. It is a completely genuine love, unconscious of itself and not produced by self-effort. I had asked the Lord to show me an example of what Jesus was like, because I couldn’t grasp how to live on this earth like Him, and so He graciously answered my prayer. I’m convinced that is all that matters now, it has become the hunger of my heart, to become like that, conformed to His likeness, to be perfected in love, because everything else, all truth as well as grace seems to be contained in that love, and only then will we be able to really hit the mark. Until then we tend to swing from either being too lenient or too harsh according to our own human knowledge, preferences, loyalties, moods, agendas etc.

    Luk 16:16

    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    Hbr 7:12

    For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    This new law is the law of faith, according to Romans 3:27. The reason not one jot or tittle of the law is abolished is because it still judges the unrighteous……but not the righteous, of which we are who follow Christ Jesus. That being said, it has a bearing on the prophetic gifts…change of priesthood, change of law…so what I understand is that the gift of prophecy to the church is also in accordance with this change.

  91. To the Hebrew Roots people

    Jesus did NOT follow the law or try to keep it. That was not His focus. His focus was ONLY to live by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God, to do nothing but what He saw and heard from the Father. His focus was not on customs, laws, or festivals. He participated in them ONLY as the Father directed. In doing so, He did not sin and fulfilled ALL. We hear nothing in the NT about the law or festivals continuing observances for the church

    Rather we are admonished, as Andrew pointed out above, to not get in bondage to traditions. Gideon’s ephod became an object of whoredom because inordinate attachment was place upon it. Its purpose had been fulfilled, but people refused to let it go.

    That is Andrew’s point. If we do as Jesus did (walk in the Spirit, walk in the light) we will do as Jesus did and fulfill the law. The law can only be fulfilled by not looking to it. The law was made for those in the flesh but can only be fulfilled by those walking in the Spirit.

    There ARE two testaments. A testament is only a statement of testimony. The OT testified of the law and sin and a coming Messiah, primarily as One Who would liberate politically and rule the world.

    The NT testifies of the Messiah Who CAME and fulfilled the law, and makes us one with God and will rule and reign politically one day. He not only gave us a new way of living, but a new life to live it with. The OT is the shadow, the NT is the reality. Both are one, but two versions of the same. The NT is the revealed truth of the OT. Walk in the reality of the new and the shadow of the old will be fulfilled

    The feasts have a symbolic significance, but not in the same sense as they did before Christ. We have the reality of Christ in us NOW, so why return to the beggarly elements which pointed to Him?

    You make void the word of God by your insistence on traditions. You flirt with idolatry by your tending to things that point to God instead of confronting God, Himself. The old has passed away (it had its place before the new came) and all things are made new in Christ.

    Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

    Knowing Christ is ALL there is. Let me ask one question. If we truly lived by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God, would we sin? Would our ministry be maximized? Would our impact in the world be maximized? Of course, so what is the purpose of all the begarly elements you speak of. One cannot walk in the Spirit and the law at the same time.

    You are adultresses according to God’s word
    4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
    For in that passage Paul SPECIFICALLY brings up the issue of adultry in relationship to Christ and the law. It does not make any difference if the law is Christ’s best friend, it is still adultery,

    I fear that the Hebrew Roots people will indeed have a Rude awakening (pun intended).

    The Hebrew Roots movement is too convoluted to address completely here, and I am NOT trying to cheapen this board with trying to hash it out.

    I know this seems harsh, but for those who love the law more than or in competitiion with Him, He IS harsh, as He was with the Pharisees – the ONLY group He was harsh with. They too loved their traditions and displaced God because of them. Stop making the same mistake.

    If anyone has a response to this post, DO NOT REPLY HERE AND MESS UP THE CURRENT DISCUSSION, HR is an aberrant and Pharisaical mindset that appeals to the fleshy and does not warrant space here) BUT RATHER CLICK MY ICON AND GO TO MY WEBSITE AND RESPOND THERE. (Andrew, if you think any of this is not appropriate, feel free to delete any or all of this post, I will not be offended in the least)

  92. Renee Sep 5th 2013

    Brother Ian, beautiful post, thank you.

    HE must increase….

  93. Dr. david Sep 5th 2013

    Did Jonah have a choice? Is Yashua the Alpha and the Tav the word came alive? Which parts of him do you want to do away with? Do you want to be the Kalah Bride?

  94. Dr. David Sep 5th 2013

    Did Jonah have a choice?

  95. 100% Zululander Sep 5th 2013

    Lightning Storm that scripture you posted in Ezek is probably the scariest in the bible. I often share it with folk. Don’t ask God for His will in a choice matter when you’ve already made up you mind what you want. He will tell you what you want to knnow & you can rightly tell folk “God said so” but it won’t be His will. Don’t fool with God. Be genuine with Him in all your dealings with Him.

  96. Ejimanze Sep 5th 2013

    I would request all watch this week’s video on – josephprince.org/ on this very topic we are discussing. There’s nothing like having a 360 degrees feedback, plus revelation, on any matter, especially spiritual matters.

    Bless U!

  97. Lightning Storm Sep 5th 2013

    Yes…Zululander You are giving a good warning.

    IDOLATRY IS RAMPANT AMONG THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES “christians”. Just like it was in the OT.

    [2Ki 17:32-33, 35, 40-41 KJV] 32 So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places.

    33 They FEARED the LORD, AND SERVED THEIR OWN gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence. …

    35 With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them: …

    40 Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner.

    41 So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children’s children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.

    Of course, IDOLATROUS “christians” will state that they FEAR GOD…….but watching and listening to their lives…GOD SEES and GOD READS THEIR THOUGHTS AND DESIRES.

    There is SPOUSAL IDOLATRY; FAMILY IDOLATRY; CAREER IDOLATRY; THE AMERICAN DREAM IDOLATRY; REPUTATION IDOLATRY; ACHIEVEMENT IDOLATRY……..etc etc etc

    Many quote this verse to SUPPORT AND JUSTIFY their IDOLATRY.

    [Psa 37:4-6 NKJV] 4 Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

    The people NEGLECT to read the other verses which CLARIFY that the LORD will put HIS DESIRES; HIS WILL; HIS WAYS INTO YOUR HEART AND THEN PERFORM THEM.
    We are to EXCHANGE OUR DESIRES AND OUR WILL for HIS DESIRES AND WILL…….that is the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS.

    5 COMMIT YOUR WAY TO THE LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring [it] to pass. 6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday.

  98. Gary M Sep 5th 2013

    Yeah … I do believe that many of the so called prophetic voices today are listening to themselves. But I must point out that the 1 Cor reference at the end of the article was not followed up with a logical point, or at least the thought behind the “wow” was not clearly expressed. “All” prophesy is a lot of people.

    Overall I thought the article failed to make clear or present the issue/case for which it was apparently opposing, therefore making the examples of little meaning.

  99. Claudia Sep 5th 2013

    Old Testament prophets pointed towards the coming of the LAMB.

    Prophets of this Latter Day will point towards His Glorious Return to reconcile to Him His Jewish People.

    The latter Day is not about the Christians….but about the Jew. The Christians are to help them, our brethren, Yeshua’s brethren…when they are hungry, persecuted, in prison, etc., just as we should help falsely accused and persecuted Christian brethen…at the risk of our own life.

    The entire latter days are for bringing YHWH’s people to recognize their Messiah, their LAMB, Yeshua, Son of God. This time is not about the Christians….they are already on board, if they truly want YHWH’s Will and none of what this world offers….and have vowed to serve under His Will through Yeshua.

    It is not a sin to understand Jewish roots and history. In fact Yeshua came from those roots….and understanding those roots will assist in getting the TRUTH of their MESSIAH to them….to serve them and lead them to the TRUTH. To degrade or discourage that knowledge is to stand in the way of their salvation….and in fact, is a rejection of the totality of Jesus Christ…Yeshua.

    A Christian is not saved by following or practicing the Holy Days appointed by YHWH. But by respecting them and understanding them, they illuminate the meaning that has been given in the Bible by all the true Prophets of YHWH.

    It is looking towards the law for salvation that is wrong….as our LAMB paid His Blood for the New Covenant which all who choose Him are under. Seeking to understand the law and the customs as given by YHWH only add to our growth and understanding of that which has been given to man.

    The adopted son should do everything they can to lift up the first born and bring them into the LIGHT….which they missed when He first came. We should be prepared to help them. There is no greater way to help someone, than by first knowing that person. The Followers of Yeshau who were Gentile were not required to keep the Holy Sabbaths and Feast….but neither were they banned from attending those feast with the Jewish Followers of Yeshau….as a remembrance of YHWH’s Power and in honor of the glory that was given to Yeshua.

    The Gentile Followers were not told that they would lose their salvation if they did sit with a Jewish Believer and share in the feasts that they continued to honor. If they were…please give me those scriptures. My understanding is that we Gentile Followers were freed from that commandment. But those who do sit with them should not be looked down upon, as something lesser. And….before i am once again judged wrongly on this list….(such as being a feminist…which I am not) ….I do not keep the Holy Feasts, etc. But I respect those who do.

    The Roman Religious leaders hated the taint of Jewishness as the world was persecuting the Jews…..so they renamed certain things, and they distanced themselves from everything Jewish.

    Even now the events of the world orchestrate the coming start of the trumpet wars. Christian’s are being persecuted and killed, their churches burned today, by the very same peoples who hate the Jews, and have vowed that they will be removed.

    Pray for Yeshua’s brethren, that you will be positioned to help them recognize and come into the safety of The LAMB’s Arms. Pray for the lost within your own homes and community,……that they might be found….and perhaps you might be the sign post for them to find the Path.

    Pray that we do not get lost in the temptations that are coming…..and succumb to the evil pretender….who may very well appear to be the one we seek…….if our love is misplaced.

  100. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    Reb – you make excellent points about the “Torah Observant”/ Hebrew Roots movement.

    Well said, my friend.

    Andrew Strom

  101. We have often become confused with the prophets in the OT and
    aim of prophecy in the NT. Everything Jesus did in his ministry life on earth we are also commanded to do –exactly as He did. Every believer is told to prophesise, among other directives. YES EVERYONE!

    The purpose of the OT prophetic ministry was to receive, speak and eventually record (Bible) divine revelation.

    The prophecy in the NT on the other hand has a different purpose. The purpose is to provide practical and situational messages from God that build up and invigorate the Brethren. Paul records this in 1 Cor 14:3,4,22.

    NT prophecy does not receive or write more Scripture, nor does it replace and complete Scriptures. Paul is firm on this in 1 Cor 14:37,38.

    The OT was an era of law and judgment. The NT is an era of God’s grace and prophecy is used for encouragement.

    In the OT a prophet could stand alone before God.
    In the NT Paul writes that we are many members of a body, with different gifts to contribute.

    OT prophets were expected to speak the perfect inspired word of God.
    In the NT prophecy is always weighed up against the WORD.

    NT prophecy is a servant ministry to the brethren. We can all do it and should regularly as the HS leads. Just as we utilise all the other gifts. Whatever gift is appropriate to a situation at that time. The picture that Paul gives is of a healthy body with each part unique, working and growing together into Christ likeness. It is about UNITY.

    We should not rely on prophetic ‘hotlines’ or websites. God’s word contains the truth we need to know. God’s word presents wisdom to apply His truth. We also have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide, comfort and teach. The Bible tells us that the canon of Scripture is closed (Rev 22:18).

    Our job then is to contend for the faith entrusted to ALL saints.

    Personally I believe if anyone sets themselves up (website online or advertised) as a self styled prophet or prophetess, my alarm bells immediately go on. We are all capable of hearing from God and knowing the ‘hour’ at hand. We can also confirm among our brethren because the HS is talking to many people at the same time about a given situation or issue. We work as a body
    not as a self promoting, self acclaimed prophet or prophetess. Doing it that way we control and draw people to our ‘false net’ and actually lead them away from HIS WORD and their own ability to hear the HS on a daily basis. Then of course the door opens to all sorts of doctrines of demons, among other evils.

    Let us always use the prophetic to encourage and bring people back to the Word, the way of truth, into His love and path for their lives, to get them to hear for themselves from the HS every day.

    Shalom AM

  102. GaryB Sep 5th 2013

    AM

    What you say is true but let’s not forget that Prophets are part of the five fold ministry and this is a calling from God.

    In the New Testament a Prophet came to Paul and took an article of clothing and told him what was about to come to pass.

    Acts 21:10-12
    10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

    11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul’s girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

    12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.

    The gift of prophecy is for all believers, but the calling to the Prophetic ministry is still a Prophet sent from God.

    GaryB

  103. marilyn Sep 5th 2013

    Excellent word reb. That is why the local church is so important. I can’t imagine this post being the only place for people to learn doctrine. That is what God designed pastors/teachers, Elders for. Men we know and we are able to watch how they live their lives among us. How they treat their family, how they interact with the world, how they conduct themselves etc.. Andrew is a moderator.

    In Acts 5:12-14 we are told that they were all with one accord on Solomon’s Porch. Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly. Think of the integrity of God’s people! It was a serious thing to commit to being a Christian. Especially after watching what happened to Annaias and Sapphira. Yet believers were increasingly added to the Lord! The Spirit of God is powerful!

    I have walked with the Lord for many years. I have seen movements come and go. I have seen what it is like to follow after the various fads in the church throughout the years. Most of my friends and I acknowledge and depend on the gifts that are in each other. The giftings in the Body of Christ are just that, a gift. How needed, how encouraging. Just as 1 Cor. 12 explains. At the end, Paul tells us to “earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet, I show you a more excellent way.” Which goes right in to 1 Cor. 13, the Love Chapter.

    I find 1 Cor. 14 very helpful in that when prophets gather two or three are to speak and the others are to judge. And if something is revealed to another who sits by, the first is to keep silent. Instruction is: all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn and be encouraged. And that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.

    That is exactly how we operate. The spirit of the prophet is one of teaching in love. And in 1 John 4:1 we are further instructed in this: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I am not a scholar, but to me this seems to point to those who are prophetically gifted are allowed to prophesy and others are to judge. We will learn and be encouraged. It is also interesting that Paul is instructing the giftings, not that the leadership of the gathering is to determine who are the prophets. So, it doesn’t seem to be an office. Jesus Christ is THE prophet and a prophet who speaks for God would need to be under the Holy Spirit’s control.

    My friend is used in our church as a recognized prophet, not that it is a title or office, but after the prophesying, the entire congregation is encouraged in who God is and what needs to change in us. It is done very directly and very lovingly. Where there is an opening made for giftings, the giftings are manifest.

    The Holy Spirit has been promised to lead us into truth. To sit under false teaching without comparing the teaching to the Word, would seem that we are those who have itching ears. If we have been deceived and revived, this should very much present in us a humble and broken spirit. A condition God is able to flow through to others. Whether bringing a word of comfort, correction or encouragement. Some will hear and turn to God, some will reject. Just as we learn from the books of the prophets in the OT. I don’t see a word from God as coming from an arrogant person, or a sarcastic person. Think of Jesus Christ. “For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” 2 Cor 10:7 Paul tells us in part, “If anyone is convinced in himself that he is Christ’s, let him again consider this in himself, that just as he is Christ’s, even so we are Christ’s.” So it seems the prophets are God’s GIFT to the church, and Jesus treated those who were false much differently. “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nr do you allow those who are entering to go in.”

    Unless you are addressing the false, and this site seems to be for believers, Christ’s belong to Christ and His voice they know and they do not follow another. 1 Co. 8:1-3 “We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. BUT IF ANYONE LOVES GOD, THIS ONE IS KNOW BY HIM.”

    Arrogance and sarcasm is not received by those who are following the LAMB of God. None of the prophets, OT or NT felt that they must make the people listen and respond. Because it was not their word, but God’s. God is also able to teach HOW to bring His word to others. “If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God.

    The Prophet Jonah in Jonah 4: “Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I knew that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.”

  104. Andrew Sep 5th 2013

    If the word “Prophet” was to have a different meaning in the NT, they would have used a different word for it.

    Same word – same basic function.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  105. To me, the definition of a prophet is simple One who speaks what God has told him/her to speak, nothing more and nothing less. So, I agree that the definition has not changed

    What I do believe has changed is the scope and the breadth of the revelation God gives to today’s prophets compared to those of old.

    Their word was the complete revelation to Israel meant for that time. There were not a bunch of them running around giving pieces of God’s message.

    Paul says that we know in part and prophesy in part. It is other parts of the body who may need to add to it in order for it to be God’s total revelation for that time.

    If God’s NT prophets were required to be 100% accurate, there would be no need for any to judge them. Paul would have said, Cast them out if you judge and find error. The body of Christ differs from Israel in that all can hear His voice, yet He chooses some to vocalize that voice in agreement with others He is speaking to.

    The OT prophet was more independent regarding those of Israel, the NT prophet is totally dependent on the body of Christ and its Head, not just on the Head, for the Head has chosen to reveal His mind to many.

    That does not mean that a true NT prophet’s words will be accepted or validated by people who are supposedly in His body. There are times when, in fear and trembling, the NT prophet must like the OT prophet stand alone for God. Art Katz was a good example of that. But Art’s secret was that he trembled lest He misrepresent or add to or take away from what God had said.

    We like to make rules and tidy definitions of everything in Christianity, including what a prophet is. Let God define and reveal who and what a prophet is and does. The are not all cut from the same cloth nor will they all be given comforting or encouraging messages. Corrective and warning messages are still very much a part of God’s prophetic mantle. I do get tired of the same anemic generalized “prophetic words” that are spoken as from the mouth of God. While biblically true in most cases, they do not come forth with life but flounder forth like cliches.

    I think that is one distinction between the function of a prophet and the gift of prophecy. Prophecy more often will encourage gently, while a prophet will be given the more difficult task of rebuke and warning. Prophecy tends to be softer and more general, and the Prophet, sharper and more specific. Such words will often be rejected by sheep who are caught up in the world, the flesh and the devil – those whose minds and ears are dulled to the Shepherd’s voice. The prophet then is sent as a megaphone to over ride the din of other voices and to set the saints on the proper path and a renewed devotion to the Shepherd of their souls.

    The prophet will wrestle with God more, cry more, pray more over his word than those with the gift of prophecy. For someone with the gift of prophecy, it is a gift to be used. For the prophet, the gift is in the core of his being, it who and what he/she is and cannot escape from it, but can be disobedient to it.

  106. Further thoughts on the prophet
    I also believe that the NT prophets message is not so much directed at sin, but at the real problem behind sin. The evangelist will speak of sin, the prophet speaks to sheep (usually) saying Return unto God, seek His face, repent from you waywardness. He is always after the heart matter, not just mere outward performance.

    Even in encouraging, not warning prophecy, the prophet will most likely speak about the heart and encourage the spirit to Spirit relationship and focus on the new man and our realities in Christ. The prophet is not too concerned with the outward acts for he knows that out of the heart flows all wickedness, so he focuses on the heart.

    The encouragement the prophet brings is at the center of the heart reality instead of the resulting sins. It is the heart that needs to be changed or all other changes are meaningless. The prophet’s words tend to be more knife like and more precise, leaving little wiggle room.

    The prophet is very jealous for the honor and Holiness of God. Truth may seem more important than people to the prophet, but the prophet knows that truth is the remedy for error and waywardness of people, and only a fierce putting forth of the truth can break some bondages.

  107. I really liked what you shared directly above reb – it really resonated with me… 🙂

  108. Raksha Sep 6th 2013

    Then Amos said “I am no prophet, nor a prophet’s son, but I am a herdsmen and dresser of sycamore trees and the Lord took me from following the flock and Lord said to me “GO, Prophesy to my people” [Amos:7:14,15]. In the midst of the many arguments and reasoning’s and streaking with new unbiblical colors of earthly wisdom, sophistication and consumer pleasing,of what and how and who a prophet should be and what the contents and tone of the prophecy should be, by those who fail to weigh the content coz it doesn’t tickle them, let those led by the Spirit of god rise up and say “thus says the Lord” and be HIS VOICE wherever He wants it to be heard.. When the LORD has spoken “Who can, but Prophesy?” [Amos:3:8]. Could they stop Amos, no the opponents couldn’t, in fact when they resisted him by saying “do not prophesy”, he didn’t doubt the one who told him to prophecy, but he continued with the TRUMPET SOUND. [Amos:7:17]. Those who heard the VOICE of the LORD in and through Amos said,” the land cannot bear his words and he is CONSPIRING” [v.10]. The same today, the underlying issue is “cannot bear the truth”..

  109. I am very grateful for the reminder given above concerning Ezekiel 14:1-9. Thank you to those who brought that word. Balaam was an excellent example of someone who God gave a word to, but who wanted to go his own way, so asked again, and God answered him (Ez 14:4) “according to the multitude of his idols”, and eventually Balaam died in his sin.
    And John 7:17-18: (using the Greek) “If anyone determines to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God, or whether I speak from myself. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He [or he] who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him [or him] is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him [or him].”
    If we have any motive of our own, and then go to God, He will give us an answer according to our own motive.
    Another example: when the people went to Jeremiah whether to go to Egypt, since they had already decided what they wanted to do, they were given an answer according to the idols in their heart, as Ezekiel would have said it. And they paid for it. (Jeremiah 42-44)
    So today, we must be exceedingly cautious when seeking from God, to not have any interference from self at all.

    Also, I want to clarify something that not all will understand.
    In NT times, there are two separate things. One, open for all Christians, is the gift of prophecy. The other, reserved for a few, is being a prophet according to Ephesians 4. The primary focus of those with the gift of prophecy is in speaking from God accurately to His people. However, the focus of those who are truly prophets,(in OT or NT sense, which should be the same), is something holy, distinct and separate. They will be seen by others as having the purpose of speaking accurately from God to His people and also (Eph 4:11-16) to equip and edify the body of Christ, and being, with Apostles, foundational to the church (Eph. 2:20). But the focus of a prophet is not on these things, although he/she does them. The focus is on his/her Beloved; on God Himself. The heart of a prophet is something very precious to God; He is exceedingly jealous for these who desire only Him, nothing and no one else. David expressed it a bit when he said he desired nothing in heaven or earth, but for YHWH Himself (Ps. 73:25). If the focus of one who is considered to be a prophet in the Eph. 4 sense is on the speaking, or on anything else, then he/she is probably not truly a prophet sent from God in the Eph 4. sense. The calling is so very precious and holy that it is very dangerous for someone to assume the role, even if approved by all the churches. God’s judgement is very severe on those who take on the role, with all the “proper” approvals, but whom God Himself has not sent. The real ones are more at home on their knees in front of their Beloved, than they are in front of people. They do not seek approval from humans at all, but only from their Beloved. Their history with God is much more than their history with humans (if any at all). It is vital for them to have a heart which is very tender toward God. Throughout history, most genuine prophets have not been acccepted or approved by the organized church of their day. And that is also true today. If someone seems to be accepted by the organized church as a prophet, let that be a caution. This is why church approval cannot be a final criterion as to who is or is not an Eph. 4 prophet. Usually, a true prophet will go through a period of severe testing, often so severe that they are thought to be being judged by God for some supposed sin. The testing/training is so severe that it will break those who are not truly called to be there. Holy. Separate. Pure in heart. Utterly so.
    But as I said, others will not understand. However, those who have been there will know this in their spirit. It is all worth any price, to be heart-to-heart with their Beloved!

  110. marilyn Sep 6th 2013

    Your words very much resonated with me too reb. Thank you.

  111. Andrew Sep 6th 2013

    Well said, Anna

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  112. Marilyn Crow Sep 6th 2013

    Thankyou Andrew for Kevin`s article opening up this great discussion of OT & NT Prophets. The discussion is thoughtful with good teaching by many – Gary B, reb, Grant, Ian, etc

    Kevin has given us some good points on Prophets ministry -expose & convict of sin & stand in God`s council. All true. Yet there is more as many have pointed out.

    There is one glowing error I see that I would like to point out. Kevin has prophesied to us, God replied …
    “Kevin …….READ THE PROPHETS!!!” (Kevin`s capitals)

    Kevin tells us this is what God said to him. And God may well have, but in that discussion with God, Kevin (like us) is the one that is fallible. But it is presented as `truth,` not as I believe, I think, can you confirm, did I hear right, etc.

    Further on Kevin tells us that God knew that we would need a `clear guide,` to discern false & true prophets. And yes the character of the true prophet, as Kevin said, is of utmost importance but it is about the message also that God has given `clear guide,` lines.

    And it is because people do not know these that they fall into the error of -`it is the Holy Spirit & me & the Bible.` But in that sentence is the fallible `me.`

    God has given us the Holy Spirit & His guidelines for interpreting His word & the `me,` & my opinions & interpretations are thus out of the equation.

    So what are the Holy Spirit guidelines for interpreting His word & how do they apply to the OT & NT Prophets & prophecy?
    What truths do these guidelines reveal to us?

    1. The Prophetic Word of God is CHRIST CENTRED.

    The OT Prophets all declared of Christ. Moses foreshowed Him in a variety of symbols, signs, sacrifices, showing His character, conduct & functions etc.

    Even in the history sections of the word (Joshua to Esther) Christ is shown in His angelic form regarding His authority & administration. Then in Job to Song of Solomon He is presented as having a knowledge of things before hand. He is known to be the Saviour, the Shepherd & the Sovereign Lord.

    Then in the specific prophetic section from Isaiah to Malachi, Christ is proclaimed with a foretelling of His names, titles, garments, vocations, Majesty, ministry, sacrificial death, resurrection & elevation to the right hand of the Father.

    These are the topics, all of Christ that God had the Prophets speak of.

    Now in the NT. we discover that the central conspicuous figure of the person of Christ is even more prominent. Christ`s sovereign administration of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit is seen in Acts. Romans – Galatians prophetically reveal the sufficiency of Christ for Salvation, sanctification & justification. Eph – 2 Thess prophetically expand on our standing in Christ, while 1 Tim. – Jude shows Christ indwelling the life of the believer.

    2. Christ`s purposes for the 3 groups.

    This is the second guideline that the Holy Spirit has given to us so we can understand His word & not put our interpretation on it.

    These groups are the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. The OT Prophets were given God`s message concerning Christ`s purposes for Israel as an earthly nation looking forward to their Messiah. If they obeyed God`s call to them then all would be well, if not then consequences followed. Messages for the Nations were in relation as to how they treated Israel &/or God.

    For the Body of Christ the Holy Spirit through the prophets reveals Christ to us as the exalted glorified Lord overseeing the maturing of the Body from the throne in glory.

    Most common prophetic errors occur when these 2 guidelines are not known. But where they are understood then we see more clearly individually & as a group what the Holy Spirit is actually saying & not mixed with the `me.`

    Marilyn.

  113. I believe that Kevin is right! 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that “All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness …” What Scripture is Paul talking about to Timothy? He is talking about what we know as the Old Testament. When Paul wrote these epistles there was no New Testament canon in existence – only the the Hebrew Scriptures – the OT – and the authoritative writings of the Apostles, and later the gospels. Today, of course, what we know as the New Testament is included in “all Scripture”. The notion that somehow the New Testament has superseded the Old Testament is one of the blights on today’s Church.

    And as far as Old Testament prophecy is concerned Peter writes: “We also have the prophetic word made more sure, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:19-21)

    The rebirth and restoration of the nation of Israel back in her ancient Promised Land is proof of this. So is the fact that she is besieged on all sides.

  114. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.” (Revelation 2:29)

    We need to listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the Church, not just what the Spirit hath said. We need the freshness of prophetic revelation, that life-giving rhema that comes through the prophet’s gift. Without that refreshing we die a boring religious death and are not spiritually relatable to our generation. We all need the prophetic voice to come into the earth that we might have a “living Word” imparted into our lives. Without the life provided by the prophetic voice, the Church would be like the dry bones in Ezekiel’s vision.

    God wants to raise a prophetic people who are able to hear His voice clearly. Not just lone prophets, but a prophetic people. It is important the world hears the Word of the Lord with power and refreshing that comes from the prophetic anointing. We need a prophetic people who have been delivered from the “fear of men” and who are not “men pleasers.”

    Currently the majority of ‘visible’ churches in my nation have pretty much excluded the Holy Spirit voice and the gifts, let alone the callings of those with a prophetic voice. Leaders and hierarchy are just not interested and will isolate anyone who ventures that way. There are a few churches who realise the dire importance of the prophetic input and gifts for the building up of the Body and they are reaping that blessing accordingly. However for the most, the devil has ensured the powerlessness of the church at large by this exclusion. It is a church without power. A church controlled by the spirit of man. However the groundswell and hunger of people now resident outside this type of church is growing and para-prophetic ministry meetings are attracting increasing crowds and are teaching people how to operate in the prophetic as in other gifts, which should be as natural as eating.

    If Jesus operated in this capacity, and He declared we should do everything he did, and much greater, then so should we. One divinely inspired prophetic word can change a life around. We have all seen it I am sure in ‘free’ meetings.

  115. GaryB Sep 6th 2013

    The problem I see in a lot of churches especially charismatics is they get into constant personal prophecy.

    Most personal prophecy is always positive, maybe some scriptures included that ministers to a persons flesh. They always tell people how they will prosper and be used mightily of God.

    Sin is never mentioned, and everyone is led to believe that everyone in the group is doing great with all these good positive messages from God.

    In the Old Testament sin was constantly dealt with and people were being called back to the Lord. Today meetings can be backslidden with little zeal and everyone is being told how great they are.

    This has been going on in a lot of charismatic groups for years.

    I believe there are true prophets out there but some churches are putting to much stress on personal prophecy.

    GaryB

  116. Marilyn Crow Sep 6th 2013

    The OT Prophets & NT Prophets is there a difference?

    `Kevin (& all) …….”the mystery…..which in other ages was not made known…..as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His …..prophets; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs,….” (Eph. 3: 3 – 6)

    Different time, different group, different purpose, different message.

    Marilyn.

  117. Interesting article, I take the view that a prophet is a prophet irrespective of time or age. His message is always to reveal the one true God of which he is a witness (Isaih 43:10) This is important as todays prophet preaches a tri-une God as opposed to the bible prophet who clearly shows us God is one in person and being ( v11,13,15 and 44:6).

  118. Good and wise words by many regarding the prophetic
    God has been and is speaking through many here and a truer perspective of prophet, prophecy, and the church is coming forth.

    thank you all for you faithfulness and obedience in speaking God’s words and for enduring the trials that bring forth such sensitivities.

    It only confirms to me that we are on the brink of an accelerated revealing of the TRUE church and Christianity as it was meant to be. We are truly being being prepared to dislodge the deceit of the false churches, the false ministers, the false words, the lying traditions that the True God may shine forth.

    It is only be God’s appointment that anyone is a prophet or apostle or pastor or teacher or evangelist. Without Him, we are all nothing but fig pickers and fig pickers we will remain. God loves fig pickers who are not ashamed to pick figs and to admit to only being mere fig pickers.

  119. Barry Schmidt Sep 6th 2013

    And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, (Ephesians 4:11-15 NASB)

    The purpose and the main focus of the New Covenant prophet in the church is clearly laid out in this critical passage on the church.
    1. The PRIMARY purpose of a prophet is to equip the church to come to a complete, accurate, mature and universal knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ.

    2. The PRIMARY message of the prophet is THE BIBLE “the faith”.

    The prophetic movement became apostate when it relegated the message and content of Scriptures to the sidelines and replaced these with subjective messages that glorified the prophet and self effort religion rather than that glorifying The Lord Jesus Christ and HIS GOSPEL!

  120. Barry Schmidt Sep 6th 2013

    The Old Testament prophets are EXACTLY the same in THIS PRINARY WAY: The Ol testament prophets spoke the message of the INSPIRED SCRIPTURES- and the New TESTAMENT PROPHETS speak the SAME message of the inspired SCRIPTURES!!!!

    So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:19-21 NASB)

    There you have it- Peter clearly declares both the old and the new prophets MESSAGE was “the prophetic word MADE MORE SURE”!

  121. Barry Schmidt Sep 6th 2013

    Gods true prophets have ONE Lord – Jesus Christ- one BOOK – the Bible and one MESSAGE- Jesus Christ and Him crucified!

  122. 100% Zululander Sep 6th 2013

    I’m not cler wht folk make a distinction between the prophets in Eph & the folk who prophesy. Long teachings on how they differ. Why?
    Where in the bible does it say they differ. The person in the office of a prophet does it as his/ her primary function & others do it on occasions.

  123. marilyn Sep 6th 2013

    Good and biblically sound words to us Marilyn Crow, thank you. Thank you again, reb, for using God’s gift to us in you to bring all these words from Christ’s people into an order. God has been revealing that to me lately also, that He is able to present us to Himself without spot or wrinkle. Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” God uses His Body to speak. All of us. We must lay down our lives, submit to Him just to hear what He is saying through others, because if they don’t line up with our opinions we don’t want to hear, and as 2 Cor 4:7 tells us: “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not us” “And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
    that your faith should not be in men but in the power of God.” 1 Cor 2:5.

    That’s why your words resonate, reb. The flow of the Holy Spirit is in love and unity and teaching, that we might all come to a completeness in Christ. I greatly appreciated your last paragraph, “It is only God’s appointment that anyone is anything. Without Him we are all nothing but fig pickers.” I am not ashamed to be a fig picker.

    Even as we are given instruction regarding the order of prophets in 1 Cor. 14: “For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.” I have been encouraged by much of what I have read from these comments by godly people seeking to learn more of Him, and sharing what God has been teaching them. Some want to insist instead on focusing on a title. Even Nineveh received Jonah, and turned from their evil way. A Hebrew Prophet! But some want to be recognized in the church as a prophet. However, Proverbs 18:16 tells us, “A man’s gift makes room for him, and brings him before great men.” God has given the gift to the church. Both a prophet and the prophetic gifting are heard. What difference does it make? If God is using earthen vessels to speak, why is it so important to nit pick about a prophet always a prophet? That takes our eyes off of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Not faith in a man. Not faith in Isaiah, not faith in Jeremiah, not faith in Agabus. But faith in God who is able. God is not the God of confusion.

    If God is using you prophetically,or you are a prophet we will know you. The Bible tells us in Matthew 10:40-42 (vs 41) if we receive a prophet in the name of a prophet we will receive a prophet’s reward. Vs. 40 Jesus says “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.” It’s all about Jesus and coming to a closer relationship. What a reward, that God would speak to His people through people!

    And, as you said reb, “enduring the trails that bring forth such sensitivities.” I am thanking God too.

  124. Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
    (Deuteronomy 34:10 NASB)

    But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send My messenger ahead of You, Who will prepare Your way before You.’ Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    (Matthew 11:9-11 NASB)

    Up until when that scripture in Deuteronomy was written there had never arisen a Prophet in Israel like Moses who the Lord knew face to Face…

    Jesus then tells us that John the Baptist was a Prophet and that no human being had arisen anywhere who was greater than him but that the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he…

    Who is the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven?

    ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
    (Deuteronomy 18:18 NASB)

    Jesus Himself is that Prophet and Jesus Himself is the least in the kingdom of heaven…

    He taught His disciples that the greatest among them would be their servant…

    He demonstrated this through His life – the greatest among them was the least in the kingdom of heaven – the one who had placed themselves lower than any other – in the place of humility and servanthood – that was Jesus – and that is us if we follow Him…

    When we get close to God – face to Face – then we know Him and then we become like Him – then we hear His Voice and then we tell others what we have heard in His Presence…

    This is what Jesus did and this is what we will do – and greater things than what John the Baptist did will we do – and even greater things than Jesus did will we do because He has gone to the Father and because He said so – He has given us His Holy Spirit…

    The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy…

    He must be exalted in all things – as He placed Himself in the lowest Place – and became the Least in the kingdom of heaven – washing our feet and taking our place on the cross…

    He – Jesus – is the greatest Prophet – the most humble Man – to ever live – He was the closest to God – always beholding Him in His Presence and He heard perfectly from God because of His Intimacy with God, His Father, while He was on earth – He is God and He is Man but He is also the perfect Prophet…

  125. Barry Schmidt
    you said
    The Ol testament prophets spoke the message of the INSPIRED SCRIPTURES- and the New TESTAMENT PROPHETS speak the SAME message of the inspired SCRIPTURES!!!!

    No, the OT prophets spoke new revelation about God and His ways that was in agreement with all former revelation, The NT prophet does not speak new revelation (that is where the NAR and other phonies miss it) but can provide new illumination of the scriptures (which will not violate the scriptures), as well as bringing forth the truth of revealed truth to bear on specific situations in the church and its members.

    you said
    2. The PRIMARY message of the prophet is THE BIBLE “the faith”.
    I disagree, again.

    The bible, unfortunately, has been made an idol and has supplanted God – especially in the non charismatic world. Preachers don’t say, Ask the Holy Spirit or God, they say, counsult the bible.
    Yes, the bible will provide the test of all that is true, Yes it is the inerrant words of God, and Yes, certainly, God will speak again those same scriptures to you. But, He is not limited by the words He has written. He is an ever speaking, ever revealing God, giving direction in each particular situation, an ever present help in time of need. (I know that you are not saying He is not)

    But, it was never meant to replace God Himself and His relationship to Him. Honor the scriptues? Yes, or be in great peril.

    The primary purpose of the prophet is RESTORATION – the turning of men’s hearts toward their Maker through the atonement of Jesus Christ. No prophet is content to produce a nation of bible readers.

    The primary message, if not the ONLY one of the prophet, is turn your hearts to God, When he prophesies against sin, his aim is not to merely stop the sinning, but that others may truly know Him, hear Him, obey Him, Love Him. Their constant exhortation is : Love the Lord you God with all you are and live by every word that is proceeding from His mouth.

    Just join a non charismatic church and just suck up all the life that is there when people place the bible where you seem to want it place. . The neo charismatics have erred and replaced the Holy Spirit with vain imaginations and private scriptural interpretations and developing their own traditions. The non-charismatics have replaced God with the bible – even calling it the word of God, when , according to the scriptures, there is only one Word of God, Jesus Christ. It has become a rule based, historical system of traditions and just as much condemned by God as the neo-charismatics.

    It is necessary to give the bible its proper place, but God’s place is far above everything that He has ever spoken or ever will speak..Let us know the God of the scriptures and seek His face, and let us read His scriptures as part of that means. Scripture itself tells us that He reveals Himself in other ways than scripture alone – the earth declares His handiworks, and men are without excuse

    I do appreciate your spirit but think you need to pray through to deeper levels regarding what you stated. On the surface, you say what most people would agree with. But is it the heart of accuracy.?

    I, too, may be missing the core essential, but, like you, am stating the current state of my understanding for inspection by the body here.

    If I have misunderstood what you have said, help me to understand where my misunderstanding took place

  126. Re: judgement of the “Torah Observant”/ Hebrew Roots movement. How do you see G-d? Is He the “I am G-d, I change not” [Malachi 3:6]? Is He the ‘the same yesterday, today and forever” [Hebrews 13:8]?

    If your answer is ‘yes’, stop disparaging & judging the Torah Observant/Hebrew Roots crowd. Your ‘jesus’ is not better than their ‘jesus’.

    If your answer is ‘no’, you are engaging in idolatry. You are engaging in ‘neither glorifying Him as G-d, nor giving thanks to Him, but are worshipping and serving created things [i.e. your OWN theological ideas] rather than the Creator”[Romans 1:21,25]? How did A.W. Tozer word it? “Idolatry is the entertaining of ideas about G-d that are unworthy of Him.”

  127. watchful Sep 6th 2013

    Very much liked your post Andrew J….very honouring to the Lord Jesus, as well as instructive in my view.

  128. watchful Sep 6th 2013

    Just in general I want to remind that NT prophets are ministers of a NEW covenant, so along with others here I have to think that surely that must mean there are some differences from the old. Similarities yes, but as ministers of a better covenant there are differences as well.

  129. Claudia Sep 6th 2013

    What kind of prophets are the Two Witnesses going to be, who will be proclaiming the Truth to Israel in Jerusalem during the time of deception?

    I would say those two will be prophets with a capital “P”…..such as Moses.

  130. GREETINGS BRO ANDREW . . . You are greatly appreciated. We have a church in California and I would like to contact Barry Schmidt as a possible guest speaker.
    If your could give him my E-mail or perhaps he has a web site, I would greatly appreciate it. Of course, having you as our guest would be our first choice but
    Geographically that seems a stretch.

    Thank you,
    Mother K
    [email protected]

  131. ValleyAnt Sep 6th 2013

    Kleint concluded: “God’s Prophets paid a price… they didn’t charge a fee.” That may not be the main plumbline for measuring or discerning what’s true or false prophecy, but it’s a very good one. Excuse me if I divert from the main topic as I cover this part. All mistakes and errors can be blamed on my auto-correct 😉

    God continually decried false prophets as the prophetic is namely about God’s own words and as such the prophetic, as so well observed in the prophet Daniel more than the rest of the prophets, is founded on INTEGRITY or truth and purity (uprightness). Integrity, or the integrity of God and His Word/words.

    Someone recently told me, yesterday or two days ago, that both OT and NT prophets have the same duties and explained that where it says in the NT that prophecy is for encouragement and comfort, it’s speaking to ‘those who have a prophecy’, flowing in the gift of prophecy, not to prophets (another look actually makes it clearer). Furthermore, it’s also about situation: Jesus sometimes chided the apostles’ lack of faith (or lack of wisdom); but then the Bible says, in James 1:5, that whoever lacks wisdom will not ‘suffer’ chiding from God. Did God change from sometimes chiding to no longer chiding? No, there just is a time for everything. According to this truth, we see that the NT prophet Agabus prophesied about a famine (“which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar”) in Acts 11:27-30, a prophecy we would be hard-pressed to call ‘edifying’. Agabus again prophesied a warning (which we can’t call comforting or encouraging) to Paul which later came to pass.

    Two weeks ago, a minister who calls himself a prophet showed what I call ‘prophetic pride’. When the Lord showed me that his heart was set on self-pleasing and I told him, he made a veiled threat to harm me in the spirit (he’s bragged several times of ‘traveling around and doing God’s work and warfare in the spirit plane’) since I’d ‘spoken against ‘God’s anointed’ as he said. I told him to try by all means and so find that the God who made him so special wouldn’t let him attack me (playful mocking). I don’t know if he tried his charismatic witchcraft against me, but he apparently never got through. He cut off all contact with me and disappeared.

    I report the above story to get to the passage that came to me as I read this article: “From the least of them even to the greatest of them, everyone is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely. They have also healed the hurt of My people slightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:13-14 and 8:10-11). Many so-called prophets are greedy, out for self-promotion; because of this, they can effect very little for others but pretend to be doing so; yet though they claim complete resolution to issues and such among the people (i.e. peace), clearly “there is no peace”. These false prophets charge fees and lay heavy burdens on others every single time, but they are unwilling to pay the price that godly integrity demands and to enter in to bear others’ burdens. “Peace, peace,” they claim, but among them there is no peace; among them there is no integrity.

  132. Thanks watchful, Praise the Lord… 🙂

  133. JohnB Sep 6th 2013

    The main thing is the truth. Just real; straight; honest.
    Be real.
    I think God accepts honesty.
    (Problem might be a lot of us pretend to believe – we do try very hard but all that evolutionary theory has had to have some effect. However, evolution as a basis for the origin of anything is not logical.)

  134. GaryB Sep 6th 2013

    Reb

    Very Blessed by your posts here.

    GaryB

  135. Marilyn Crow Sep 6th 2013

    Gary B

    Just a quick answer from last blog where you asked me a Q. about B.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjW5Oj6WNco

    Marilyn.

  136. Marilyn Crow Sep 6th 2013

    reb

    I have also been greatly encouraged in my spirit as I have read the posts & see that the Body of Christ is maturing in it`s understanding of our Lord, His character & His purposes.
    And great insight regarding how that comes about, `for enduring the trials that bring forth such sensitivities.`

    Thank you marilyn for your kind words & truth, `The flow of the Holy Spirit is in love & unity & teaching that we might come to a completeness in Christ.`

    What a joy to our ears as we hear each other speak of Christ & His great truths & realise afresh that Christ is truly Head of the Body, actively overseeing & co-ordinating the maturing of the Body of Christ.

    Marilyn.

  137. For a great many years, I have believed that true prophecy should reveal sin in the believer. How else can God save us from our sins if He doesn’t expose them to us? But I was told that my stance is condemning that all prophecy should be for “edification.” I asked the Lord once, “What could be more edifying in a prophecy than having ones sin exposed? What is the point Lord of telling us our nice points if we are fornicating or lying or whatever?!” I never heard Him say a word in response, however, I look back now and see that it was He who gave ME the question! What is the point of scratching someones back on their way to hell? Is that edifying? I am just insecure enough to have shut up about it and ev en believe that maybe I was too legalistic. But in my heart I knew. The pastors & others who “prophesy” have a wrong idea about what is edifying.
    Thank God for this article that says everything I have believed for years, but had my mouth shut up about.
    I heard a tongue in a meeting once, given in true authority (not the faked authority some adopt) and the interpretation was, “You have crept up to the altar and taken back that which you had laid there for Me.” My heart said, “That is truth!” (Not of me at that time.) Immediately the pastor rebuked the interpreter and told him it was a false prophecy because it did not edify.
    Oh bite me! Are we so pathetic we cannot stand Gods’ correction?! “Prophesy unto us smooth things, prophesy unto us deceits! This is what you are like O House of Jacob!” God says somewhere.

  138. marilyn Sep 6th 2013

    reb, I appreciate what you have said thus far. Yet, a red flag went up about the Bible being an idol. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. However, I believe it was Tim Keller, of the Emergent Movement that began to teach that. The Holy Scriptures are able to make wise to save. Being in the Bible daily is what makes us one. It is life changing. In them contain the promises of God to those who belong to Him, we are told to “be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” Rom 12:2. Paul’s word to Timothy in 2 Tim. 3:14-15: “But as for you, continue in the things which you have l earned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
    and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ.” How would you be able to do that without receiving the Bible as the only truth about God? People are subjective. That is why we are told to not quench the Spirit, or despise prophecies, but to test all things; holding fast to what is good. 1 Thess. 5. How would we test all things without holding them to the truth?

    My Bible is not an idol to me or anyone I fellowship with. It is a source of life because the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit as we read and apply. Who would sit down and read without first praying for God to open the Scriptures to their understanding (Luke 24:44-45)? Perhaps what Jesus was speaking of in John 6:51-59 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” Psm 119:105 “Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path.” Who of those who belong to God would not depend on the Holy Spirit?

    As a mature Christian I know what you are saying about the Word being Jesus. Just as the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being in God’s word (and yes, I believe it is God’s word) daily brings me close to the Father. Jesus tells us in John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, who I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.” (Yowza!) To be praying for the Scriptures to open our understanding to see Jesus as He really is, and then to have the Helper testify. How could you not worship God above all?!

    When I had to leave the charismatic church I was attending for a while, I went to a non charismatic and grew leaps and bounds in the Lord as I sat under the teaching of those who knew their Bible. Jesus Christ was seen in every chapter! I thank God for placing me under that teaching. Being raised in a charismatic church I did not know how to use the Bible. As Scripture was used out of context to support the “Experiencing”. It was not used as a tool to bring us to a closer walk with God. Talk about dead! Man’s imitation of what he thinks is God is total death. But even as the Corinthian church, it was a needed learning process. And God does seem to send us out to cross pollinate and then bring back we have learned.

    The more I read the more I am able to trust Jesus at another level. And I do not believe God would “condemn” His own word to us because of how we use it. Unless I am misunderstanding what “it” meant. I cannot imagine this intricate part of the believer’s life “replacing” God. I really cannot even get my mind around those words. Like someone just put a spoke in the wheel.

    I am somewhat surprised by your comments regarding non charismatics. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The non charismatics that I joined for a season were filled with the Holy Spirit. Romans 14 tells us: “Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.” The entire chapter really spoke to me.

    Maybe I am being hyper sensitive. Believing in God’s word to change us into Christlikeness is not false teaching. Jesus used the phrase “It is written” some forty six times. Heb. 4:12 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

  139. Carl Emerson Sep 7th 2013

    In the same way as the Pharisees idolized the Scriptures but were so disconnected from the Word that they didn’t recognize Him when He came…

    There are also NT Pharisees among us who idolize the Bible and lack living revelation, being disconnected from His Word…. Jesus

    We are warned… the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

    This is not to detract from the wonderful gift the Bible is and that it is the last word given to test all revelation.

    It is a matter of keeping out hearts from idolatry which can include traditional teaching and lean only on the Word, as revealed in the word and in all of life as He inspires.

    Blessings

    Carl Emerson.

  140. Lightning Storm Sep 7th 2013

    Thank you Carl, that is a perfect instruction.
    I was waiting on the Lord and behold….the Lord spoke through you.

  141. Carl Emerson Sep 7th 2013

    Yes although I am part Jewish, I fear, also that many of my Jewish brothers who idolize the Torah are blinded to the extent that if He appeared again as a man. they would condemn Him again as heretic.

    Praise God that there are many in Israel today who believe in Jesus the living Word – secretly.

    Blessings

    Carl Emerson

  142. Carl Emerson Sep 7th 2013

    Notice how Saul in Acts 9:5 when confronted by Jesus said “Who are you Lord” Saul… a man who knew the written word intensely.

    May we know Him when He appears…

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  143. ValleyAnt Sep 7th 2013

    For lack of time, I’ve only just now skimmed these comments and will like to read all the comments and to respond when I do have time. Many good and EDIFYING words from prophets, the prophetic, and God’s Word. I read just a bit, and I’m ‘full’ 🙂 Good to get your perspective Andrew J., and always good to read your short and concise, Carl. God bless all.

  144. Amen to all of what you shared Carl, thanks for your encouragement ValleyAnt… 🙂

  145. 100% Zululander Sep 7th 2013

    This “Word” vs “Christ” discussion!!
    As most have said, the one is the other.
    As I read I fill my mind & as I read with a hearts intention to learn of Christ so that I can do & be as He shows me so I am changed, IF I then go & do as he has revealed Himself. If I don’t do, then I am as the Pharisees.
    One cannot have the one without the other. Equally important.
    Reb I didn’t enjoy your comments on non charismatics. I have found the opposite to be true. (I am a charismatic)…often reluctantly so.
    Charismatics are, in this part of the world (SA) generally untrained, no theological teaching & rely on the Spirit to teach them. You just want to listen to the nonsense from the pulpit. Give me a good theologian any day.
    If one thinks the preacher lacks the spirit, then you must be full of the Spirit yourself & you’ll be blessed.
    Nothing is more harmful than junk from the pulpit.

  146. Andrew Sep 7th 2013

    Wouldn’t it be nice to have the Word and the Spirit (both)!!

    Why should we ever have to choose?

    -Andrew Strom

  147. watchful Sep 7th 2013

    Isn’t it that under the old covenant emphasis was on outward behaviour, but under the new covenant ceasing from outward sin is more of a ‘given’ and a starting point, and our concentration now is on cleaning not just the outside of the cup but the inside also, which others have mentioned. Feel free to correct but as I understand it what the old covenant and law did was to prove and show us that the inside needed cleaning. And the coming of the Son of God has made the Way for us to do that, His sacrifice and resurrection – and the gifts of the Spirit including prophets are part of helping the Body of Christ to be conformed to His likeness, in a way picking up where the OT left off. So in a way the pilgrimage has become more stringent under the new covenant, but paradoxically less burdensome and more gracious because of being yoked together with Him. Conscience becomes more sensitive, things that we never even used to think of as sin and which never used to bother us start to become deeply troubling as the Spirit of God seeks to cleanse and heal ever more deeply, and whenever we lose sight of God’s grace through the cross of Christ we start to sink like Peter walking on the sea.

    I don’t know what God is doing with the wayward churches now, whether He is still sending prophets and others to speak the truth and drop a plumbline, or whether the time for that is past and His Spirit has pretty much departed. But I do know that He is concerned with the Body of Christ in the wilderness and with rebuilding the fallen tabernacle through them and restoring the simplicity of Christ. NT prophets are part of a Body, I’m not sure exactly what they were in the OT………..to me they seem like forerunners or types of that Body outside the camp, because OT prophets as they were written always seemed to be outside the camp of the wayward establishment, as was Jesus.

    Pulpits??? Now where did that idea come from I wonder? Didn’t Jesus sit down to teach? AMONG the people – and allowed for back and forth discussion too? wickedshepherds.com/ThePulpit.html

  148. DonaldN Sep 7th 2013

    Watchful…
    very good reading on your link about “pulpits”.
    I advise all to read it.

    I also notice that in Church, when a person from the congregation has a word, a testimony or whatever, the person in authority will step aside from the pulpit to give the mic to the person to say what they have to say, they will not allow them to step up to the pulpit, because that would be giving them authority that they share very little with only those who have proven themselves already (ie those with higher income than most)

  149. 100% Zululander Sep 7th 2013

    Andrew have the people who emphasize the one over the other made a choice? or for a million reasons fallen into it unknowingly, just needing sound teaching & example?

    Apologies for this off topic but I don’t know who to ask.
    Where can I get info on Bethel church & sozo counselling?

  150. marilyn Sep 7th 2013

    Andrew, it IS wonderful to have the Word and the Spirit both. The choosing is when we begin to put more of an emphasis on humans. Good question 100% Zululander. Yes, I have been taught by those able to teach and studied my self. I have read the classics, the scholars. If we can’t use the Bible as our only authority, it all breaks down. Suppose you people are right, we can become legalists, but that is human error again, not the Bible. “But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.” John 2:24-25

    The prophets in my fellowship know and love the word. So, we don’t have to choose between them and the Bible. The Bible is their authority just as it is our. The Lord has saved me and has brought me up out of the pit. His word is wonderful and powerful. A prophet working under the anointing of God will cause one to turn to God. However, the prophet then goes his way. I still have the Bible. Thank God.

    This site is way above my simple thinking. I am not being edified in the Lord, but rather this seems to be stirring in me to dispute rather than build my faith. 1 Timothy chapter 1. So, thank you for allowing me to put my 2 cents in. Thank you for your words that have helped me have a better understanding of what is out there. Jesus prayed for us in John 17 that we might all be one Just as the Father and Son are one, and we are one in them and in each other. I will pray that with Jesus, as only He can bring that about.

  151. Marie Sep 7th 2013

    “They didn’t charge a fee” – Yes. and Amen.

    How many self-claimed prophets charge fees to spread their prophecy. That’s one clue that the christian is not a prophet, because a true prophet would tremble with the responsibility of sharing God’s word and would be convicted enough that they’d never sell it, or wait until it’s printed and marketed in book form.

  152. Marie Sep 7th 2013

    I believe that a true prophet is someone that has had to show the fruit of the Spirit, has overcome a lot of trials, and shows a life of true commitment to the Lord. This to me, would mean that those he speaks to would have the Lord’s confirmation that this man or woman speaks for Him. Today so many self-appointed teachers and church leaders and pastors depend on people’s money to preach to the masses, without showing us their fruit. Only those around the prophetic voiced will know their true fruit. When disciples saw John the Baptist living very frugally and sacrificially and ungreedily, I am sure they felt the anointing on him. Today, we listen to those who live like Kings. The prophetic ministries who demand donations and demand allegiance and think they can operate this way, expecting those thousands of miles away to accept their word as God’s word, are expecting us to trust them. Any christian man or woman who tells a listener to believe him and trust him and doesn’t encourage them to search scripture for themselves is steering them away.

    Even if I read of Kevin Kleint’s opinion on whether OT prophets are different than NT prophets, it’s hard to know if he means what he says because I don’t know him, nor can see what kind of christian example he sets. We have to be so careful today about what we hear. The extracts from the writings of this Mr. Kleint: does it come from a published book? Who personally knows of him and has he been a man of real faith, shown by example?

    We know the prophets of Old didn’t have a world-wide audience. They spoke to a small group and no doubt that group could see the fruit of their lives. Then, the messengers that heard the word from the prophets relayed the message to their communities, and so on. But each man who spread a Word from the Lord had to suffer consequences if he didn’t live with good fruit. Of course we know that God could speak through a donkey, but through Christ, we have the Holy Spirit.

    Today, many self-claimed prophets that we see on TV, hear on radio, read on blogs and internet, don’t present their true selves to us, the reader, listener, watcher. We take their word without knowing if they are true Ambassadors of Christ. This is the problem we, the church, have today. There are too many charlatans, because they CAN get away with it, and there are too many of us who fall for the charlatans, as we are too trustworthy. Even here I write, and none of you know me, or if I am truly walking in Christ. We have to trust the Word of God only, and I believe in this last day, we are going to realize, for those of us who are looking for that hope, we won’t need to rely on prophets and will all know what lies ahead and be prepared as the Body. I don’t think one prophet can say or add anything to what is going on today that we are not aware of. We know it’s getting bad and all we can do is wait and pray and serve.

  153. 100% zululander:
    And my apologies to Andrew because this, or most of it, is somewhat off topic. Nevertheless, because of the abuses of the prophetic, it becomes of importance to us. Andrew, feel free to erase this if needed. i do not want to abuse the purpose of this posting.
    about bethel church and sozo ministries, ask me. i live 2 miles south of that church. scrambled a bit, aH00vAh YaH at Y**** d o t ca. i dislike machines that scan for email addresses. no capitals, no spaces, no numbers.
    maybe i can help you a bit to understand them.
    first, they deliberately confuse gift of prophecy and eph 4 prophet. second, they disregard all OT instructions concerning prophets, such as Jeremiah 23, saying that was only for OT, not NT. third, they equate the words faith and risk. they say “without risk it is impossible to please Him”, totally abusing that verse. fourth, they encourage people to say to others whatever is in their mind, and call it prophecy from God. fifth, they have a class, they call it “Firestarters”, which they use as if it were a discipleship class, and everyone is expected to go through it, and I found in my humble opinion, that the primary purpose of that class is to train people to be false prophets as fast as they can. people come literally from all over the world (e.g., Uzbekistan, Zaire, Ukraine, etc.) to be trained to be false prophets.
    OK— i have probably said too much already, but i hope this helps to start to answer your question.
    Anna

  154. Averyl Sep 7th 2013

    Marie & Marilyn, – Amen!

    Anna, – I’ve been in an NAR meeting years ago where they encouraged everyone there to learn to prophesy by saying to the person sitting next to them what was in their mind!

  155. Averyl Sep 7th 2013

    has an excellent article on this subject, it comes after the study on apostles.

  156. Averyl Sep 7th 2013
  157. Claudia Sep 8th 2013

    So very true, Watchful. Jesus, Yeshua, did seem to be more on the outside of the establishment, as also did the prophets seem. They were of YHWH, not man….or man’s traditions. Neither walked the pathways of traditional man, and neither thought like traditional man concerned with their own comfort zones and group “think”. They were totally consumed with YHWH’s Will and the coming Kingdom.

  158. Averyl Sep 8th 2013

    It seems that the OT prophets spoke God’s word to His people Israel, – predictions, warnings, reproofs.

    So it follows that NT prophets should also speak God’s word to His people, the Church, along the same lines.

    But as this is impossible because they are never all together in the same place of each locality at the same time, where does that leave the prophets of today?

  159. Hi Averyl -great discussions all round

    Within every congregational assembly or in the marketplace outside of a church congregation God has His people with the prophetic anointing. In the OT the prophets probably did not move location so much and most people knew where they could be geographically located. Although some of them were told to go here or go there and be the oracle of God. That actually is still the case today. Now days the internet acts as a vehicle for prophetic people to ‘utter’ for God. To serve God in whatever ministry calling we have, such as the prophetic, there are no walls, no borders, no structures or no restrictions needed -God’s word is also not bound in any way or can be contained. In churches, in work places, on planes, trains or buses, in any nation of the world, in every town or village, on the internet, in cafes -people can operate under the anointing to which they are called such as the prophetic anointing – to prophesise means simply ” to utter”.

    We have the Word of God -that is well established and our Master blueprint. The prophetic todays speaks to specific people/groups/nations in their personal situations. It did in the OT too but they did not have the Holy Spirit or the written word in its entirety. We are blessed today because we have the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and the gifts and callings of the prophetic, apostolic and so on. One would think we could not possibly go wrong then -but sadly large sections of the western or structured church are heading for apostasy. Hard to imagine how this could happen with all that guidance from all those ‘spiritual’ sources. Original sin is still an issue for mankind however.

  160. Averyl:
    the article you referred us to and called “an excellent article” says that prophets (and apostles) have ceased.
    Since it comes from that position, it would say for example that none here are prophets at all. But it seems obvious that most of us here are of the conviction that there are genuine prophets today.

    Therefore I cannot trust whatever else that article says, and to call it “an excelllent article” i think is misleading.

    I believe, however, that just as in OT times, there are many more false prophets than true ones.
    Anna

  161. 100% Zululander Sep 8th 2013

    Thanks Anna. I was also hoping for a site explaining more about them. All I know is what I see coming into my ch.
    When the grace thing came to my ch I was the only guy to stand against it, now sozo came & again only me resisting, now firestarters & it’s only me again. I am totally sidelined in my ch. Only with the pastor, as no one in the ch knows my strong resistance. I have to honor his leadership & can’t make division. So when folk ask why I don’t preach any more I skirt the subject.
    I resist as I understand the principles of how God sets one free & sozo method doesn’t do that, no matter what results it appears to brings. It now seems to me Bethel is really going off track with all this strange stuff !!???
    I do very little internet stuff but judging by what is coming to our ch from them since one of our leaders went there it’s not good. Strange prophetic stuff as well. Awkward as they all want to talk about it in times of fellowship & I just run away…go home. Pray for our pastor, he is the key here. Open his eyes & the rest comes right. But he won’t talk to me, & I will not fight of force the issue, I think God must do it in his time. Right now, I will love him & pray. VERY FRUSTRATING though. He is a nice guy & it has spoiled our relationship somewhat, but I cannot compromise what I believe is the truth:(

  162. Marilyn Crow Sep 8th 2013

    I thought this might be an encouragement to us all. It is long but worth the read. It is a prophecy by Prophet W.A.C.Rowe, Hereford (England). in the 1940`s. He was my families minister when he & his family came out to Australia in the `50`s.

    GOD`S LOVINGKINDNESS

    Truly, My Loving-kindness has sheltered you. If you will look back over the way that you have come, you will find that My Loving-kindness has preserved you. Where would even your life be were it not for My Loving-kindness? If you would hold life alone, apart from the Loving-kindness of the Lord, you would be in a precarious position. No wonder, then, My servant cried out that My Loving-kindness was better than life, because it was the preservation of his life.

    I would have you to know that all that which is truly good & eternally good, is proceeding from Mine Own Heart. With My Loving-kindness have I dealt with you in the past, even in the truest manner, for your eternal good. You count Loving-kindness often as that which is a blessing even to your own feelings. But My Loving-kindness has a multitude of `gifts` & a multitude of channels flowing to you, sheltering you & preserving you.

    That which is very often called `a curse` is My Loving-kindness in disguise! For often I have sent adversity to you; I have led you the way of difficulty; I have taken you through the desert & I have led you through the wilderness. I have caused you to leave what you call `the land of Plenty.` It was My Loving-kindness. To what intent?

    I would have you to learn this, because My Loving-kindness brings it , allowing the circumstances weighing round about you, even to work within you a brokenness. If you will analyse the moments in your experience in which you have been able to say that you are following hard after Me, it is not in the height of your prosperity, & the joys that are present unto you, but you have found that My Loving-kindness has led you through the wilderness & the desert, & everything seems to conspire against you. And if you are unable to meet the demands, & you become broken, melted, lowly, hungering & thirsting after the Lord, because the cisterns had failed & the waters fled, & were broken, then it is that you have had the fullest measure of the greatest blessing, that you can follow & pant after the Lord. It is My Loving-kindness.

    If you are looking at life in itself, it will become corrupt. If you are only centred in your own natural life, you are becoming corrupt. If you are only looking at the spiritual life, & looking to yourself, & you have not seen that all comes from the Lord, you will fade; you will find that what you gloried in, had utterly failed you, & fled from you. It is not sufficient if you look alone at life. My word is that you should look at the LORD HIMSELF from whom comes life.

    My Loving-kindness is sheltering & leading you through the way of adversity. To what end?
    That you may be broken by the Hands that were pierced in love for you, that you may be broken. As you pass through, beseeching the shelter of My Loving-kindness, the Pierced Hand over-shadowing you, the Hand that was wounded for you shall preserve you, through My Loving-kindness.

    For you should look not at those things that are adverse, but at the Fountain of your Life & Love, even the Lord your God, & then the Water of Life will never fail you. You can be where you will, & you will not be dried up, & you will not depend upon the outward circumstances. The avenue of your being will be open unto the Lord. Precious are the tears of brokenness in My sight. Not because I delight to see you suffer in any way, but because ye are then looking unto the true Source of blessing, to a stream that cannot be corrupted because your vision is not on the stream, but on the Source of the stream. My Loving-kindness.

    No father, no parent that has ever lived has attended to their child as I attend you. Their knowledge is limited; but Mine is Infinite. They do not always know rightly how to temper justice with love, but I never fail; & if you must pass through the way of adversity, I only allow you to pass sufficiently through that way to do the work that I see necessary, & I am tempering it with My love.

    I am Sovereign over the enemy, & even if I allow him to work something in you, when the exact time has come & the purpose attained, I stay the action which otherwise would crush the crucible. I will shield you from everything which is unnecessary. Trust My Loving-kindness until you will be able to say that My Loving-kindness is better than life. Because the Life you now have will always be pure, & you will be in that condition that you will be to My Glory & to My Praise & to My Honour because I am sheltering you with My Loving-kindness; My Love which fails not, My knowledge which comprehends & understands all things.

    You are Mine, & I the Lord, your Loving-kindness, am Thine, says the Lord God of Hosts.

  163. Carl Emerson Sep 8th 2013

    Averyl,

    You may wish to note that in Acts 21:10 reference is made to the prophet Agabus who delivered the Word of the Holy Spirit to Paul concerning events that were to come.

    Similarly Acts 11.27 records a group of prophets traveling together to Antioch. Again Agabus is prominent in the matter of accurately predicting a famine would come.

    These Words, specific from God to His servants were critical to the ministry of the church.

    Frankly I feel that those who advocate that such Words from God ceased, do so because hearing from God in this way is outside of their spiritual experience. In addition to this they have sadly developed a theology to justify their lack of hearing Him by claiming that the scripture replaces the role of the Prophet.

    In reality there is still need for His servants to receive specific insight into matters that will arise that may effect their ministry. He still does this by direct Words from the Holy Spirit, either direct to the believer or through an appointed prophet. Testimonies abound that confirm that He is still doing this today, not from the lunatic fringe but from solid mainstream servants faithful to His Word and purpose.

    Consider this key statement in Rev 19:10
    “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    No wonder that this central function of His church is under attack… by denial or deception

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  164. watchful Sep 8th 2013

    Amen Claudia…there is a little section in Hebrews 13 that talks about this:

    Heb. 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

    Which brings to mind that the OT prophets showed us another role of the Body of Christ in an unbelieving world, that of intercession, not only in prayer but also in life…..filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ.

  165. watchful Sep 8th 2013

    I take that to be a true word Marilyn Crow…….the church has for the most part lost this revelation of the cross. And it is the crux of a lot of it’s problems from what I can tell. There are sometimes those who point fingers at suffering saints and say that God is judging, there must be sin in your life, much like the friends of Job, but the scripture says that God chastises those He loves as sons, He is cleaning the inside of our cups. It comes through the cross, not to break the bruised reed or snuff out a smoldering wick. This is His grace and lovingkindness as that word says……and like His peace, it is not as the world (and apostate church) gives! What He has shown me is that there is also the purpose of intercession in suffering, all suffering is not on our own account, and sometimes only God knows which is what so that no one can judge. We entrust ourselves into His care and submit under His mighty hand. If we can get free then we do so, but if not we endure patiently.

  166. watchful Sep 8th 2013

    Zululander, I’m sure you are listening carefully for God’s will for you at this point. Especially if that church brings in “soaking” don’t be surprised if He wants you to flee to the mountains. I know it is heartbreaking to see people you know and love falling to deception, and I pray the Lord to comfort you in all this.

  167. DonaldN Sep 8th 2013

    Zululander…
    I understand your situation. A church I was a part of in the past brought in the Toronto Blessing and I was the only one standing against it. Another church I attended is now getting involved with Bethel. I have spoken to leaders but to no avail. I have chosen to not attend a church that is preaching false doctrine.(actually, I was sort of asked to leave and I agreed). I, for myself, would rather wander through the wilderness than sit quietly in a congregation that is being taught nonsense. If you choose to stay, I will pray for you to be a true light to those around you.

    As for causing division, this is where I disagree with you. If you are the only one standing for the truth, in this case division would be a good thing, if it means dividing some people away from the false teaching and showing them the truth. Sanctification is not division.

  168. DonaldN Sep 8th 2013

    In other words, to sit by quietly and allow others to be deceived is not a good thing. I believe there is a place for causing division. Jesus did it. We should not back off from speaking the truth.

  169. DonaldN Sep 8th 2013

    In fact, I think this is exactly what this discussion is all about. This is the work of a prophet, to speak God’s word to those who are opposed in their doctrine.

  170. DonaldN Sep 8th 2013

    2 Tim 2:25-26
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

  171. Lightning Storm Sep 8th 2013

    AMEN ……..Carl

    Another very good word of instruction.

    I have learned the same thing about people.

    People JUDGE ALL THINGS by their OWN EXPERIENCES. If they haven’t PERSONALLY experienced what scripture states, then they don’t believe it.

    Another one of the reasons for the LORD sending the Holy Spirit to dwell with POWER and the FULLNESS OF GOD’S GLORY into the FOLLOWERS of Jesus Christ.

    It is repeated over and over in scripture that it takes MORE THAN BELIEVING in Jesus Christ to carry the Kingdom of God and the Presence of God/HIS GLORY into the darkness that dwells in people and in this world.

    Even the demons BELIEVE……so what makes some who call themselves “christians” any different?

  172. Lightning Storm Sep 8th 2013

    As Andrew Strom has mentioned above.

    You MUST HAVE BOTH……the written word and the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Jesus Himself said “YOU MUST WAIT TO BE ENDUED WITH POWER!!!”

    Those that Jesus were talking to had everything!….They had the written word; they had been DWELLING with the LIVING WORD for 3 1/2 years; they had SEEN GOD, HEARD GOD, EXPERIENCED GOD EVERY DAY AND SAW AND EXPERIENCED MIRACLES ON A DAILY BASIS….but yet Jesus said THEY WERE LACKING!!

    How much more are WE LACKING by clinging to only our own personal experiences? our own personal knowledge? our own personal belief system? our own PERSONAL theology and doctrines?

  173. ValleyAnt Sep 8th 2013

    Averyl, I’m in a service now, so I’ll quickly address that link you posted. The problem with those who contend with the teaching of the Bible is that the Bible contends with them. The man who ‘reasons’ at ‘let us reason’ is not willing to reason if he doesn’t agree with you. I’ve spoken with him before, and after his six thousand words, you finally find that he doesn’t believe that apostles are for today. Those who can’t see the CLEAR teachings in the Bible are often blinded by pride (not always but often, the more probable that it is pride when the blind one is a teacher or minister of the Word since God speaks more clearly and readily to His ministers).

    The teacher at ‘let us reason’ has a lot of truth; but everyone would be wise to stop where their Grace stops. To read things clearly written in the Bible and then think your brain can out-reason God’s wisdom shows immense and laughable pride or/and pride. I’ve posed questions to ignorant people who teach that apostles and prophets have been done away with that they couldn’t answer (because the Bible says that the FOOLISHNESS of God is wiser than the wisdom of man and His weakness greater than man’s strength). One of these questions is whether there ever is a time we don’t need a body part and can go on and cut it off; does Jesus cut off parts of His Body and say, “I no longer need it”. We are to contend for the faith once for all delivered from God to the Saints, not the faith the that Christians deliver as acceptable to God or which the ministers attempt to deliver to the Saints.

    “Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I WILL SEND them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute'” (Lk. 11:49).

    Untaught men who haven’t waited on God for wisdom shouldn’t preach as if they understand the things of God. When minsters wait for God’s counsel, then He gives them more than knowledge but also wisdom so they can turn people from error and Death to truth and Life with it: “The Lord God has given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him who is weary. He awakens me morning by morning, He awakens my ears to LISTEN as ONE [still] BEING TAUGHT” (Isa. 50:4).

  174. 100% Zululander Sep 8th 2013

    Thanks for the words everyone who did.
    The choice is to run & leave everyone to the stuff being preached or wait & pray for God to make an opportunity in His time. he certainly hasn’t & won’t abandon them. Do I go & be light in the light or wait to be light in the dark?
    I pastored for years in this church moved away some yrs now moved back in town. All new members. I’m involved in a pastors fraternal & was the facilitator of it for some years. They know me well & all know my situation but won’t give advice as God has shown none of us for me to move. I have exceptionally good relations with them all. Also a few subtle invitations to join their ch’es
    I would like to know more of the facts as to why I feel so resistant against these teachings coming from bethel ch, if there is a GOOD site to check out, not just another church basher site full of sarcasm, but an objective dignified appraisal because NO church is all bad.
    Thanks everyone, be blessed

  175. GaryB Sep 8th 2013

    Marilyn Crow,
    Thanks for the video on rebuilding Babylon, very interesting in light of Biblical prophecy.

    Not to get off thread here but I also wonder about rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. There is a lot going on there that you don’t get in the world news. Our area where I live is well known for its limestone, they have been shipping large quantities to Israel for years now.

    Not trying to change the subject just a quick reply to your post.

    GaryB

  176. Claudia Sep 8th 2013

    I think we only have to look to Joseph who was sold into slavery by his own jealous brothers. Joseph never looked away from YHWH’s face….and YHWH used this incident to greatly bring about blessings in the future. YHWH is in control….and those who accept that with all humbleness will be used for His purpose and for His coming Kingdom.

    Many would not have looked upon the beginnings of what happened to Joseph as God’s Loving Kindness. The favorite son being ripped away from his earthly father and his home. But it was totally about YHWH’s loving kindness.

    We do not have YHWH’s Vision, so we must TRUST Him, totally. Even the fall of a great nation who has perverted the meaning of freedom into an icon of self endulgence could actually be part of YHWH’s loving kindness, as it may protect many who He desires to save.

  177. Claudia Sep 8th 2013

    A prophet spoke:

    Jeremiah 9: 22-26 Speak, Thus saith the LORD, Even the carcases of men shall fall as dung upon the open field, and as the handful after the harvestman, and none shall gather them. Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness (this would include America, Europe, all nations): for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

  178. 100% Zululander:
    You asked for something positive about Bethel.
    I may be in as good position as most, having attended there for over a year, until my health will not allow me to attend (even if I wanted to).
    I believe Bethel started as a reaction to so many, who deny the power of God as being for today. They reacted against the ditch they saw others in, but fell into the opposite ditch.
    Bill Johnson wrote a book (among his many books) about what Jesus said: “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in hesaven.” Bill was correct to a point, but then went too far.

    At Bethel, they emphasize healing being for today. Common in sermons are anecdotees of amazing healings from around the world. However, among people who come there to get healed, most go away totally devastated, unhealed. Of the few who do get hesaled, I have wondered if some of that may be from demonic power. Indeed, among other churches in this area, some are very convinced that there are very powerful Kundalini evil spirits at Bethel. Conceiveably, those could be responsible for some of the genuine (but evil) healings that do take place.
    It seems to me that they will take what appears to be healing, no matter what the source of that is.
    Some of the alleged healing I know to be psychological (I am very familiar with that from my medical training).

    People come to Bethel from around the world, an average service having people from 25-40 countries. They come, often desperate for help. Some are very sincere, dear people, who then are misled and (I believe) usually demonized. Speakers come from various places, such as Pastor Yun, from China (of the book “Heavenly Man”).

    The music used at Bethel is loud with drums and such. Dancers are there at most services (they are not displaying lasciviously, to their credit). They also have painters painting pictures while the music is going on. I have a speccial privilege from God of having seizures when exposed to that kind of music. Indeed, the very first time I attended there, I left in an ambulance. So since then, I stay in the foyer or outside of the building while the music is going on. To me, their music is usually not genuine worship. One time, I told one of the leaders that a particular piece of music was demonic. Of course that was not received well.

    You wanted to know the positive about Bethel. They very strongly hold all the gifts as being valid today. But they have no discernment at all as far as I can see.
    They were not happy with me when I refused to “prophesy” out of my own heart. And if I tell them that is forbidden in p;laces such as Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 13, they simply say the OT does not apply today. And there you have the topic of this, the difference, if any, between OT and NT prophets and prophecy.

    As for spiritual warfare, they verbally compare demons to flies that you simply flick off with your fingers. That is not consistent with Scriptures, but they do not seem to care.

    So Bethel started with a reaction to the heresy of the power of God not being for today. They did well to do that. But then they over-reacted, and are now deep in to opposite ditch.
    I have seriously wondered who the ultimatee goal/purpose are of Bethel’s leadership.

    Sozo is another subject, for another discussion.
    I hope I have not dragged this on too long….it may be that another discussion has already taken place here concerning Bethel. I simply have more personal knowledge than most, and can walk/bicycle over there any week to get the latest.
    However, I generally no longer go to any church, although I would like to.
    Zululander, I hope this helps you some.
    God bless you!
    Anna

  179. Marilyn Crow Sep 8th 2013

    Gary B

    re: Rebuilding the temple at Jerusalem.

    Jesus, who was a Prophet prophesied,

    `Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place…..` (Matt. 24: 15)

    `This was the temple with its inner sanctum, `The Holy Place;` according to the signs predicted by Jesus (Matt. 24: 15) & Paul (2 Thess. 2: 4) Many commentators have relegated this to the obscure future, because they consider the temple has to be constructed on Mount Moriah, the site of Herod`s temple. The insurmountable object of course, is that the Dome of the Rock, the second most holy place of Islam, already occupies that position.

    This is an entirely false premise, however, that has created confusion. The Temple built by Solomon, the Temple frequented by Jesus & HIs disciples were both built on Mount Moriah. Ezekiel predicts that another will be constructed on the same place after Jesus returns in Glory. Every reference to all three Temples on this site was a translation of the Greek word `Hieron.`

    Any `Temple,` erected elsewhere was invariably from the Greek word `Naos.` This word is frequently rendered `Meeting Place,`
    `Dwelling` or `Synagogue.` It is the later word `Naos,` that is used by Paul (2 Thess. 2: 4) in reference to the Temple used by contemporary Israel. It has absolutely no connection exegetically with the site on Mt. Moriah. To the contrary, in line with Greek usage, it must be constructed elsewhere.

    The embassy of Israel advises that on August 1982, in the presence of the Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, Members of Cabinet & many other notables, the Jerusalem great Synagogue was dedicated. It is situated in King George Street, & is constructed from the same local stone as was Solomon`s Temple.

    The central feature is a high tower containing five magnificent stained-glass windows, topped by two tablets of stone, bearing the Ten Commandments. The Temple referred to by Paul is built!

    In the interior, marble has been used extensively, especially for the Ark situated beneath the stained -glass windows. This I believe is the Holy Place which will be desecrated by the `Abomination of desolation` referred to by Jesus. (Matt. 24: 15)`

    (Reference is Apostle A. Gardiner`s book – `Fires before the dawn,` & Alistair Gardiner is my uncle.)

    This is another good example of Prophets (Jesus & Paul) & their prophecies coming to pass in our time.

    Marilyn.

  180. Andrew Sep 8th 2013

    Anna – would love to hear more of your experiences and thoughts on Bethel and Sozo. A sad but very important topic.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  181. GaryB Sep 9th 2013

    Marilyn Crow,

    You gave me a good chuckle here by trying to throw the word prophet in the conversation. 🙂 I know a Christian site where people can discuss any subject in the Bible as long as its not pushing heresay or error. I have never met any of the people there but post some. If you are interested in discussing this I can send you a link to the site. My email is; [email protected]

    If not that’s fine, but I just wanted to honor Andrew Stroms wishes to stay on topic.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  182. Andrew Sep 9th 2013

    I don’t mind if things go a LITTLE off topic, Gary.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  183. A bit more history about Bethel:

    Formerly it was an Assembly of God denomination church, and Bill Johnson’s father was the preacher. Bill himself was the preacher in a small town west of here called Weaverville, in the Trinity Mountains. When Bill’s father died or resigned, and died later, Bill was asked to be the preacher at Bethel. Bill’s conviction or opinion was that church leadership should be under the Ephesians 4 Five-fold pattern, with Apostles and Prophets at the helm, as Ephesians 2:20, “the foundation of the apostles and prophets….”. He was convinced that churches should not be under denominational leadership. So Bethel left the AOG denomination, and the church split, with most of the older Christians going to a new AOG church from the split. Since then, Bill has been regarded as an apostle, with his second in command, Kris Vallotton being regarded as the chief prophet. Kris formerly was a transmission repairman at a gas station in Weaverville, presumably attending Bill’s church there. Kris had been plagued all his life with seeing into the supernatural, seeing evil spirits. One more thing about Bill, he now goes all around the world repeatedly, and is regarded as an apostle by many in many countries. About a year and a half ago, Kris preached a sermon including many predictive prophecies, which he gave with a flippant, snickering attitude. He said that if those things did not happen within a year, he would apologize. Those things did not happen, and I have not heard anything about any apology, although he could have when I was not present. Therefore, my personal opinion is that he is a false prophet. I hope I am wrong, and that there is a huge amount of repentance going on.

    Bill’s wife, nicknamed Beni, heads up the prayer ministries of Bethel, and has become known for her cry, allegedly to sleeping angels, “Wakey, Wakey!”, and her collecttion of shofars and bells, which she uses.

    Bethel’s main campus (of 3) is on top of a high hill on the northeast side of Redding, California (a city of about 90,000), within very close view of Interstate 5, and from which you can see the volcano Mt. Shasta, about 50 miles to the north, and a second volcano about 50 miles to the east, Lassen Peak. Bethel has a separate small building solely for the purpose of prayer, open 24/7. It is the only church I have ever been to which has that. They do have quiet music playing in there, for the purpose of “soaking”, and I have difficulty praying there because of my personal sound/music sensitivity.

    Bill’s secretary is Judy Franklin. She speaks of having been to heaven, and indeed has written a book about it, called “Experiencing the Heavenly Realm.” I am aware that most here will want to discount that, but, and I do not like to talk about this lest it look like I am speaking about myself… but, I also have been to heaven, and, as St. Paul, have seen Jesus face to face (my own experience has nothing to do with any one else, or any church’s teaching, but indeed, it changed my whole life!). I only mention that because Judy’s book resonates with my spirit as true, that she has actually been there.

    Bethel has a school, Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM). Students come from around the world to go there. It is a two year school, with an optional third year. My guess is that there are about 1500 students attending. Young people get thoroughly indoctrinated into Bethel’s doctrines, good and bad, sand are very quickly spreading it around the world. My own humble opinion here: Bethel is training them to be false prophets as quickly as possible. I have found the students very unwilling to discuss doctrinal issues, reminding me of the difficulty one has in discussing doctrine with a “Jehovah’s Witness”.

    About 1 1/2 years ago the city ran into financial difficulties, and so Bethel church leased with option to buy, the city’s largest public auditorium. Other unrelated organizations can still use it, paying rent to Bethel. I may be mistaken here, but this is my understanding of it.

    And Bethel has SOZO ministries; indeed, SOZO was founded at Bethel. But another time for that.

    Hopefully this is enough introduction for you, Andrew, although it is quite off-topic. I hope not too far off, because if so, feel free to wipe this out, and ban me if you want.

    May God richly bless you!
    Anna

  184. ValleyAnt Sep 9th 2013

    I wish I could state my amens to so many comments here, but I’ve had so little time but to disagree with a few comments it seems. Excuse me if I post several times in response to some comments.

    Zululander, I want to respond a little to your and Anna’s comments on Bethel Church in Redding, CA and SOZO ministry in a ‘from the roots up’ manner– a manner of quicker explanation. Anna wrote something that aligns with what I’m saying. She wrote that most of those who go to Bethel for healing leave unhealed and discouraged. Anna also said that she left in an ambulance due to loud music, but they never lowered the music volume after that and she had to stay in the foyer or outside the church building during the music part of the service. We could ‘address the branches’ (i.e. look at all the things that make Bethel right or wrong and miss the obvious), but I’d like to respond to a few other comments, so I’m going to ‘target the roots’ (the primary meaning of ‘fruits’ in “you will know them by their fruits”):

    The Bible maintains its integrity by showing that when God ministers, He does so for His sake and for ours. I.e. the motive of His ministry is Love. If you use that plumbline to measure all ministers, ministries, churches, and Christians, you will be cutting to the chase and discerning the way Jesus told us to– from the roots (the heart) up. Furthermore, using that plumbline, you’ll see that churches that can’t even turn down music for others’ sake aren’t ministering from Love which is the foremost thing, “for God is Love.” Amen. If we seek to discern by using Love as the measuring line and the scales, as the plumbline and the foundation, then things will be clearer. Use the same plumbline with SOZO ministry; always ask, “Is the ministry for the sake of the Lord and the people?” All of Jesus’ ministry was for God and for us; it’s not reaching to say that no ministry can be true or righteous if it doesn’t follow His basic example of ‘God first; others second’.

  185. ValleyAnt Sep 9th 2013

    Looks like the time to respond to older comments is over.

    Anna, I don’t think you have to worry about being banned; Andrew told you to share what you did.

    I think what may be sadder than the errors in many churches is the fact that we’ve been raised on a steady diet of error and half truths and need any help at all to know what is false even when the false is sometimes readily harmful. At someone’s insistence, I read the back of one of Bill Johnson’s books. I got as far as where he wrote that anyone can walk (consistently) in miracles. The Bible can be twisted to say this, but I knew it wasn’t true. I asked the Lord to show me where the Bible denies Bill’s claim. He took me to 1Cor. 12:28-29 which can’t say it any better.

    Bill Johnson is among a great company of men who call themselves apostles and prophets and are not. I’ve met several of them. One didn’t want to pastor his small church but longed to be in the limelight with men like Rick Joyner; the assistant of another drove me from their church at gunpoint just a month ago (so cheer up all you who’ve been ‘led to leave’ churches; lol); and the latest is part of a supposed apostolic network and (in I was to speak honestly) ‘does the work of the Lord deceitfully’. These supposed apostles have none of the ‘root signs’ (primary telling signs) that are SPECIFIC to genuine apostles.

    I attended a Vineyard church for two years straight. My friend was a newborn babe in Christ, but he still complained that he wasn’t being spiritually fed at that church. Bethel and many other churches are in the same line of ‘Starbucks Churches’– i.e. churches tailored mostly for a social class of people who are too comforted to know what trial and hardship are and as a result are naturally bereft of God’s Word AND power (operating in gifts of the Spirit is not what I call power). Because of the compromise that ‘trends’ to attend such churches, sins often go from common to abominable. I was a roommate to a guy whose church was connected and an offspring of Redding’s Bethel, and I attended with him for a while. No need to recount the errors, compromise, and abominations; but it may be safe to say that the rotten fruit of my roommate (a corroded heart to the extent that his own pets hated his presence) was a good teller of the fruits that come from Bethel and churches in the same level of compromise.

  186. 100% Zululander Sep 9th 2013

    Thanks Anna. I do want to know whats wrong, I just don’t appreciate how some folk criticize, in a very sarcastic way as if they enjoy pulling them down, but truth is truth & one mustn’t avoid it. I’m aware of my plank & them being another mans servant, but trouble is, IT’S ALL COMING HERE!!! & each time I see it somehow my heart just sinks in me.
    Valleyant your reaction to the loudness of music may be a little harsh. Kids love it & it’s us “oldies” who struggle a bit 🙂
    You’re correct about the roots thing Valleyant, have you seen the roots of firestarters!!! Real scary stuff.
    I am big into counseling with Ellel ministries for many years where there is more time, hour for hour, spent on biblical teaching than in counsel. ALL counselling is done after group teaching. NO one on one in the week.
    We believe abiding in the word reveals the truth & that truth makes you free. (If anyone abides in my word he will know the truth) Its a lamp to your feet, a light to your path, a hammer that breaks the rock, it’s the Spirits sword to discern & separate, heals & brings hope & reveals ones heart & much much more.
    I am concerned that sozo doesn’t use the word of God. That is allI know of Sozo & for that reason alone I stay away from it. If there is no Word involved, then who is involved?? OR am I wrong? Maybe at Bethel they do use the Word??
    This is where fruit becomes a problem Valleyant. You’re right about fruit but we have to look for LONG TERM fruit, as immediately there is relief from counselees suffering, but unless you know the person ongoing one doesn’t know the end result as the devil may get “payback” later in another area of ones life.
    If ther is a web site I would be grateful. Anna you’re most helpful & if there is more I would appreciate it.
    My email is [email protected]. In case Andrew bombs it being off subject.
    Any one else got helpful info on some of Bethels nonsense I would like it please.. Firestartes, sozo, prophetic
    Be Blessed –

  187. Marilyn Crow Sep 9th 2013

    Got caught out didn`t I Gary B. Chuckle, chuckle. But thank you Andrew for being patient with us.

    Can I ask what is Sozo?

    Marilyn.

  188. Andrew Sep 9th 2013

    Things have to be pretty “off” to be deleted, my friends.

    And you have to be saying some pretty extreme things to get banned. It is fairly rare.

    So don’t sweat it.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  189. GaryB Sep 9th 2013

    Interesting conversation about Bethel church, I am not familiar with this ministry. Last time I was in California I did run into a lot of professing Christians, more then in our area.

    I also was wondering, What is Sozo?

    GaryB

  190. DonaldN Sep 9th 2013

    Marilyn Crow…
    I will give you a short explanation of Sozo.
    This is my understanding of it, from my sister-in-law who lives about 30 miles from Redding, CA.
    Sozo is a style of counselling that has it’s roots deep into the secular/psychological area.
    They dig deep into your past, mostly your subconscious, to discover past and mostly hidden hurts from your younger days that cause you to make poor decisions in the present, and that cause problems in your mind now. At times it involves a sort of role playing that encourages you to relive that part of your life. Also, as a help, they at times encourage you to imagine a different outcome to hopefully cause you to be healed/delivered (Thus the term Sozo) from that hurt.
    When my Sis-in-law told me, I did some praying and meditating and came up with a short study for her about what the Bible has to say about it.
    It is definitely new age stuff that doesn’t belong in Christianity.

  191. Colin Sep 9th 2013

    I have been away for a week, and haven’t had time to read through all the comments, so I may be repeating what someone has already said.
    Many years ago I believe the Lord gave me an insight into what constitutes a true prophet, and it’s really simple, but don’t make it superficial.
    A true prophet is one who has spent much time in God’s presence, has heard God speak, and passes on to God’s people what he has heard.
    The important issue is that of having spent time with God, seeking His face through His Word, by His Holy Spirit and through prayer. It’s not a matter of having some ‘experience’ or seeking any sort of personal benefit, but rather of seeking to know God more intimately – to know His heart and His ways – and to walk in His ways as He leads us by His indwelling Spirit.
    The more we know Him – the more we will see the shortcomings in the lives of His people – not for the purpose of criticizing, but of praying for, and lovingly warning God’s people to walk in His ways. This is essentially what the OT prophets did.
    Hosea 4:6: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…
    The essence of eternal life is to “…know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Jhn 17:3
    Blessings,
    Colin

  192. DonaldN Sep 9th 2013

    With all the talk about false prophets and such, I just re-read the scripture..
    Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
    Any comments on the “if possible” part of this verse?
    I have heard that it means that the elect are not going to be deceived because it is not possible, but it that is true then why are so many being deceived?
    Any comments on this verse?

  193. Marilyn Crow Sep 9th 2013

    DonaldN

    Thank you for the info on Sozo. And yes anything that does not go through the cross is of man. (New Age etc)

    The Elect.

    With regard to your question on Mark 13: 22 I noticed it was just after the Prophet Daniel`s `abomination of desolation.` My second last post was on that topic. Now the whole context of those scriptures is set within the tribulation.

    `For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, & never shall.` (Mark 13: 19)

    Now we know from God`s word that the Body of Christ is an elect group but does not suffer God`s wrath upon rebellious mankind.

    `For God has not destined us (the Body of Christ) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.` (1 Thess. 5: 9) &
    `I also will keep you from the hour of testing, the hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.` (Rev. 3: 10)

    So who is this `elect,` we read of in Mark?

    `And unless the Lord shortened those days no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect whom He chose, he shortened the days.` (Mark 13: 22)

    This is explained in Romans. It is the nation of Israel who are also God`s chosen, God`s elect.

    `And so all Israel shall be saved…..as touching the election, they are beloved for the father`s sakes.` (Rom. 11: 26 – 28)

    In the tribulation they will be looking for their Messiah & thus false Prophets & false Messiah`s will arise to try & deceive them.

    God has 2 major purposes the Body of Christ & Israel to bring to fulfilment, each in their time. We the Body of Christ being matured are the first, & later Israel. But they will have to go through a horrendous time of persecution & if God did not intervene then they as an earthly nation would be `wiped of the face of the earth,` & God`s promises to them…….

    But praise the Lord He is faithful who promised, to them & to us.

    Hope that helps. Marilyn.

  194. Barry Schmidt Sep 9th 2013

    I wonder if somehow in our Internet connected world we are forgetting something critical in the early church context in the Bibles commentary on prophets and the prophetic. That critical element is PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.
    They knew each other so it was easy to discern the ” fruit” ( lifestyle and character) of each professing prophet which is why Jesus could say to them you will KNOW THEM by their fruit.
    When they didn’t know a prophet who might be travelling through they were to evaluate their message based upon ” the faith that was once for all handed down to Gods holy apostles through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
    “the faith” with the objective word “the” in front of it ALWAYS spoke of the the inspired objective BODY OF TEACHING DOCTRINE that was handed down from the apostles . This body of knowledge and accepted doctrines existed before the cannon of Scripture was agreed upon but later became the cannon of Scripture we have today.

    The problem in our day of NONRELATIONAL Internet and media is that this PERSONAL RELATIONAL foundational SIDE IS OFTEN missing so we have no opportunity to evaluate fruit personally.
    But we still have ” the faith which was once for all handed down” which is why the Ephesians model prophets have as their PRIMARY MESSAGE AND TOOL ” the faith” in equipping the church in true prophetic tradition.
    Please don’t read into this that I am somehow don’t believe in inspirational extra biblical prophesy as supernaturally led by the Spirit ( as I am misread above) but THE PRIMARY MESSAGE AND TOOL OF THE PROPHET MUST BE ” the faith that was once for all handed down ”

    The main problem is that the Bible has been relegated to either the same level as inspirational prophesy or to an even lower place of authority. The result is we have very few who are even taught how to accurately handle the Word of truth. They use it to prooftext what their itching ears want to hear instead of letting the Whole counsel of God IN CONTEXT be the final authority. A text without a context is always a pretext!

    The only hope for the church in this hour is twomfold
    1.to encourage every saint to read read read and read their Bibles- the whole Bible and they will by that have their sense trained to discern good from evil
    2. To encourage a return to personal relationships as the primary means of spiritual formation – and to use Internet and media as a mere token means of spiritual development.

  195. Barry Schmidt Sep 9th 2013

    Now here is both a biblical and an extra biblical prophesy concerning the future from an old prophet for your evaluation and discernment :
    1. The biblical prophesy which is relevant right now:

    But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:13-17 NASB)

    2. An extra biblical prophesy concerning the future:
    A time is coming when Internet and media Christianity will be too dangerous
    For true believers for the authorities will use it to track down and persecute those who use the Internet and media for spiritual formation. Personal relationships with local churches will once gain become the primary means of spiritual formation.

  196. Claudia Sep 9th 2013

    Anna, I was born and raised in the mountains near Mt. Shasta. My brother died in Weaverville, and my parents moved to Redding from Dunsmuir in their retirement. Reading your post was like being there again. Since leaving that area I have read that Mt. Shasta is known as one of the mystical center points of the world. It attracts those looking for the false one….tho they may not know their goal. I left that area in my 20’s. The most beautiful land, compared to anywhere….but I would not go back into the area. YHWH led us to the Ozarks instead. When the time comes both volcanoes will erupt….hopefully not until the Wrath starts….and the elect have been transformed. Had YHWH not already placed His collar on my neck I would have been caught by the mystics and brought into their fold when I returned home from Sac State. Fortunately I connected with Him as my only love when very little on the deer trails and He alone guides my walk. When, as always, I am confronted by teachings not from Him, I instantly feel the gentle tug on my collar. When I confronted the mystics in my 20’s, He actually spoke…”No, this is not Me.” There is alot of power to be taped into there….but it is not from YHWH….but from those who were in the time of Noah and Enoch….and the one they follow who seeks to destroy those who Yeshua loves.

  197. Hi Barry,

    Everything on the internet is being screened and archived.
    Its far to late to hide now, as christians we have already been identified by our computer internet data use eg searches, buying habits etc of christian books, info etc.
    Satan will seek to create fear to stop any evangelistic efforts.
    The internet represents one of the greatest vehicles for the gospel at this time and must be used for Gods message just as any other media.
    Persecution of varying degrees is pretty much guaranteed in the endtimes biblically so should be of no surprise… look at what happening to christians in Syria etc.
    Churches will not be the main means of meeting….. they will cease to exist as we know it, unless they preach a false gospel that agrees with societies view of morales and sin…. meeting from house to house will become the norm for many christians in the future.
    Remember that we are the church …the body of Christ…. and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    THE SPIRIT OF THIS AGE PROMOTES FEAR OF MAN
    THE SPIRIT OF GOD PROMOTES BOLDNESS IN HIM

    Regards,

    Grant

    PS
    False prophets are man pleasers.
    TRUE PROPHETS ARE GOD PLEASERS

  198. Claudia, thank you!
    Yes, you are correct, and I had forgotten to mention the deep occultic stuff associated with that mountain. Some people, such as Katie Souza, make a big deal out of that mountain.

    Something else I forgot to mention about Bethel: I have seen more tattoos there than any other place I have ever been. I remember one of the ushers was simply covered with tattoos. At least one had tattoos that were clearly occultic. One guy preached with a big tattoo of a cross on his deltoid muscle, with sleeves up so it was very visible. I believe I have seen a tattoo on Beni’s arm (wife of Bill Johnson).
    The OT strictly forbids tattoos, however, Bethel teaches that the OT does not apply today. But somehow my spirit has been bothered by it all.

    Someone mentioned about the coming persecution from internet use. Yes, it is almost here. It will be hard for those of us who do not have local christian fellowship.
    Blessings!
    Anna

  199. Some of us have been wondering about the large number of professed christians who become deceived.
    my simple answer is that i think that most in america who call themselves christians are not that at all. It is easy for the devil to deceive his own.
    i think it is only a minority who are truly Christians. maybe 10-20% of those who claim to be, really are, in america. in countries with much open persecution, it is different.

    so we should not be surprised at the deception.
    but each of us must maintain a very close relationship with our Redeemer. Very very close!
    Anna

  200. DonaldN Sep 9th 2013

    In my own understanding, when the Word says “if possible” it means that it can be possible if we allow it by not checking with the Word and the Holy Spirit, but rather accept things taught by man. This is what is refered to as following the Spirit or the flesh. There are many carnaly minded Christians.

  201. 100% Zululander Sep 9th 2013

    Guys, look for a local church, get involved in it, love without condition & give of yourself, don’t be its policeman or judge, don’t expect perfection, let it refine you & test you & bless you, be humble, be light & a source of the goodness of the Lord Jesus in it to all the people. Real submission is a wonderful thing.
    It will be where you will run to when all else fails & all the terrible things happen that you’re all prophesying about.

  202. I liked the sentiment (spirit) of your first paragraph directly above 100% Z… 🙂

    I’ve been experiencing that in our local congregation… It is a blessing and a refinement to your soul (which is already righteous)… 🙂

    Love protects us from deception… 🙂

    We don’t agree with everything (in our local congregations) but we are protected by His Love for one another which covers a multitude of sins (as we’re all at different stages in our journey with Him)… 🙂

    Love you,

    Andrew

  203. DonaldN Sep 9th 2013

    100%Z AJH
    I must disagree with you. I thought about this for a while and the scripture came to me…

    Prov 21:19 [It is] better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

    if our relationsjip with God is compared to a man and woman relationship, then this makes sense to me that it would apply here.

  204. Claudia Sep 9th 2013

    The only thing that will keep us safe and on Yeshua’s Path during these times to come will be our eyes directly on Yeshua and obediance to all that He taught, marked indelibly on our mind and hands concerning meekness….. righteousness, …….and “LOVE”, which is all about the first 4 Commandments on how to love Him and the last 6 on how we are to love our fellow man. Knowing we are covered by His shed blood….His blood on our mind and hands, and on the doors that we go in and out of at all times.

    No man of any imagined or appointed authority should be between us and Yeshua. To place any man there is to risk deception in the times coming. And we should surround ourselves with those of like mind and heart……and that means “community”. A true leader appointed by YHWH would never place himself between you and Yeshua, Our Lamb, The Son of Our Father.

    If you, yourself, do not know Him via studying (digesting with the help of the Holy Spirit) all that has been brought down to us in the Holy scriptures, and via having a submissive, real and loving relationship with Him, you will be vulnerable to that human who desires you to look towards them, to meet your needs and to reach YHWH. That human who would rather walk in front of you, instead of by your side.

    That is also why our only “need” should be for Him.

  205. GaryB Sep 9th 2013

    quote….Love protects us from deception…quote….

    I don’t know if love protects us from deception. Its by knowing Him and His Word. 🙂

    One more thing here, “Sozo” sounds like the inner healing teaching that took place in the 80’S. Same deception with a new revised title.

    GaryB

  206. DonaldN Sep 9th 2013

    The devil doesn’t need to come up with anything new. he just waits for a new generation of suckers to come along, throws them the same old bait and let them come up with a new name for it.
    it makes you wonder what they used to call it back in the dark ages.

  207. Hi GaryB,

    The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
    (1 John 2:10 NASB)

    Love protects us from deception… 🙂

    Fear isolates us…

    Love you,

    Andrew

  208. 100% Zululander Sep 10th 2013

    Look at ALL God ever did from Gen:1 to Rev. All was done because of & out of love.
    Every situation requires a different love response. Thats why to tell someone to leave a church from 10 000 miles away knowing nothing of the situation or person aint smart & many other things we advise on.
    The bible is clear on principle, but application of that principle is very personal needing wisdom & Gods direction.
    eg. if my son is naughty, do I hug, explain & immediately forgive? or do I explain, spank, hug & forgive. It all depends on the circumstance.& what has gone before etc
    Thats why i’m very wary of ch criticizm. I like sound fact for hearts that aren’t bitter or judgemental. This is one reason I like Andrews articles. Out of all of them I didn’t enjoy the last one on exposing others sin….just my personal opinion, please don’t shoot me.
    Be blessed

    DonaldN wow, thats a little far off I think

  209. Hi Anna,

    Re the tattoos, they certainly are on the increase.
    Mark Driscoll of Mars Hills Church is promoteing christians getting “christian” tattoos.
    Hes preaching it from the pulpit saying when Jesus returns he has a tattoo on the thigh, having said that he also preaches amongst other things…sodomy and oral sex is ok in christian marriage (all featured on the Church website).
    Just disgusting…. he boosts one of the fastest growing churches in America, top selling author, rated in top ten Churchs in the US.

    The historical records and research of the origin of tattoos clearly and without dispute establishes them in the occult and pagan worship (and that is from secular historians)
    Modern examples include pirates, motor cycle gangs,triads,yakuza,prostitutes.
    The bible clearly states “do away with the appearance of evil” something these preachers seem to ignore in favour of grafiti on the temple of the Holy Spirit…which is our mortal body.
    Rev William Sudduth has written a book from a christian perspective titled “What’s Behind The Ink?” Which gives good details of the tattoos history etc.

    I believe that this is all a softening process of Satan for the later times eventual acceptance of the Mark of the Beast.
    It will hard to argue not recieveing the mark from a Christian stance when surrounded by so called christians covered in tatts (or ink as they like to say).

    I work close with law inforcement and they think its great most criminals have tatts it makes it so much easier identifying when issueing arrest warrants, at the end of WW2 the tattoo marks on the arms of the german SS made it easy for the allies to identify them for capture for war crimes.

    Yet again all these practises are being advocated by the hyper grace mob who at the heart of it believe in sin nature anymore.
    Its called lawlessness in the bible….. pathing the way for the comeing lawless one ….. antichrist or as more correctly discribed a type of christ that is not the biblical Jesus Christ.

    God Bless,

    Grant

  210. Correction……was meant to say they dont believe in the sin nature anymore.

  211. 100% Zululander Sep 10th 2013

    It’s so much easier to accept advice & critisizm from someone inside a church than someone outside. the tone is just so different.
    AndrewJH..:) you’re appreciated

  212. Hi Zululander,

    I think you will find most of us go to a church and also have no problem exposeing false doctrine when it rears its head.
    Respectiing a person has the right to a opinion is not submission or agreement with false teaching but merely acknowledgeing we all have a free will to chose right from wrong and the fruits of it.
    For some continued attendance of a church under a false teacher/teaching is the worst thing you could do…. remaining with unrepentant sinning brothers is unwise unless you are directed by the Lord very clearly…. and then you will have the strength and authority to deal with it.
    The apostle Paul was surprised at how people woukd put up with those who fleeced and misled the flock……. he commented on how they seemed to gladly put up with it.

    Regrds,

    Grant,

    [email protected]

  213. Grant,
    Thanks for sharing about the tattoos. Tattoos are becoming a big thing everywhere. The more they have the less clothing they wear to show them off. Many who profess to be Christians are rushing out to get them as well in our area. They don’t want to be different from the world.

    Good point about the mark of the beast.

    GaryB

  214. Thanks GaryB,

    You can quote me that they are ……
    “AND OUTWARD SIGN OF A INNER PROBLEM”

    God Bless brother,

    Grant

  215. Marilyn Crow Sep 10th 2013

    Back to the Prophet & prophecy.

    Prophecy is for – (as different ones has said)

    Edification – instructing & improving, enlightening the mind in knowledge (of Christ) to build up the character.

    Exhortation – to stimulate, encourage, caution & advise.

    & Comfort – to console as a Comforter at the side of the distressed, discouraged & grieved in the conflict of life; to cheer the despondent, soothe the sorrowful through trials & disappointments under trying circumstances.

    The office of a Prophet also includes these possibilities but rises higher in the `Body,` ministry & operation. It expounds the deep mysteries & possess the power to unravel the deep things of Christ concerning His person & life & purposes. He makes known the Will of God, giving the most inexhaustible wealth out of His store in the things of God.

    The twin offices – Apostle & Prophet.

    The wisdom imparted to the Apostleship, & the light through the Prophetic Office, are combined in their operation. They are twin offices, so to speak, like the Urim & the Thummim (meaning light & judgment). They are inseparable. The gifts of prophecy also is subject to the office of Pastor or Elder. (1 Cor. 12: 10)

    The mystery of the Body of Christ was revealed to both His holy Apostles & Prophets (Eph. 4: 11) by the Spirit (Eph. 3: 5); like two wheels of the chariot, they turn together. Wisdom & judgment co-operate with the revelation through the `Voice` ministry.

    The Purpose of twin offices of Apostle & Prophet.

    a) As evidence that God dwells in the Body of Christ by His Spirit.
    (Eph.2: 22)
    b)To protect the Body of Christ from craftiness & deceit of men.
    c) For the perfection & edification of the Body of Christ.
    d) For Unity of Spirit, faith, knowledge & love. (Eph. 4: 12 – 16)

    Christ is busy building His Body. Let us trust that He is.

    Marilyn.

  216. Marilyn Crow Sep 10th 2013

    Appreciated all the previous comments but thought I`d get those notes in while it was quiet.

    (`has` should have been `have.`) Time for `nigh, nigh`, as Joan would have said. God bless all.

    Marilyn

  217. watchful Sep 10th 2013

    I think we need to understand what time it is….and what the Father is doing in light of it. We are guided by His word as the Holy Spirit reveals it. 2 Thessalonians 2…the hour is very late and many are falling to strong delusion. There comes a time when He would not have His own unequally yoked to what has become a pagan temple no matter how much the name of Christ may be invoked there. It’s not a matter of perfect or not, God allows for growth, but it’s a matter of whether it is still God’s Spirit or another spirit has come in. True gospel or false gospel. If we don’t come out of the false church we are sharing in her sins and will share in her plagues. Revelation 18. How can two walk together except they be agreed. Amos 3. In spite of discerning some of the error from inside the church, I didn’t realize how much of it I had imbibed myself until getting alone with God in the wilderness and allowing Him to cleanse, purify and straighten out some vital things and give me a fuller understanding of the current situation. He delivered me from a false gospel that I didn’t even know I had embraced and restored me to the truth, because if the plumbline is off by even a little bit in our life, then the whole house is crooked. I don’t know how much longer He will keep calling to come out of her, it’s a call that seems to be fading in the distance nowadays, His Spirit does not strive forever. Choose ye this day whom you will serve.

  218. DonaldN Sep 10th 2013

    Watchful pretty much explained my point in using the scripture I did. I do not advise all or any to leave a church, especially because of differences of opinions on doctrine, unless that doctrine is against the Spirit of God and comes from another spirit.
    One reason for leaving (for myself) is not just because I don’t like the preaching, but rather for those around me that are exposed to that preaching. If I were to stay, they would take that as if I were condoning and agreeing with what is being preached. If I speak against it and remain in it, there is confusion (unless you are told by God to remain).
    The primary advise is simple. Let God lead you in whatever you decide. I give no advice either way other than that.

  219. Lightning Storm Sep 10th 2013

    Sow TO IDOLS IN YOUR SOUL, and you will REAP DELUSION, CONFUSION, AND DECEPTION.

    People believe LIES because they have IDOLS.

    [Zec 10:2 NKJV] 2 For the IDOLS SPEAK DELUSION; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore [the people] wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because [there is] no shepherd. (SHEPARD IS SINGULAR….in other words..the people are NOT WORSHIPING THE TRUE GOD….but other gods/idols)

    [Isa 45:16 NKJV] 16 They shall be ashamed And also disgraced, all of them; They shall GO IN CONFUSION together, [Who are] makers of idols.

    [Isa 57:13 NKJV] 13 When you cry out, Let your COLLECTION OF IDOLS DELIVER YOU. But the wind will carry them all away, A breath will take [them]. But he who puts his trust in Me shall possess the land, And shall inherit My holy mountain.”

    ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO POINT OUT ALL THE IDOLS THAT YOU ARE DEPENDING UPON, which is the same as WORSHIPING.

    [Deu 7:25-26 NKJV] 25 “You shall burn the carved images of their gods with fire; you shall not covet the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] for yourselves, lest you be snared by it; for it [is] an abomination to the LORD your God.

    26 “Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it [is] an accursed thing.

  220. Lightning Storm Sep 10th 2013

    The WHOLE Western world is where it is SPIRITUALLY because of those who claim to be ONLY FOLLOWING AND WORSHIPING THE ONE TRUE GOD…….are practicing IDOLATRY right along with the rest of the kingdom of darkness/worldly.

    The worldly have every RIGHT to call “christians” hypocrites and reject what they have to say about Jesus Christ of Nazareth……………….because the “christians” are worshiping the same IDOLS as they are.
    And the “christians” are DEVASTATED in the SAME MEASURE as they are, when those IDOLS ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM……OR ……LET THEM DOWN.

  221. ValleyAnt Sep 11th 2013

    Zululander, there’s a lot to be said regarding knowing people by their fruits and such. Jesus very often spoke in veiled language; we often miss this as His words are so clear. In this passage, for example, He gives us the complete blueprint to know people by their fruits (almost every word spells it out completely, but the unveiling of veiled things must come by revelation):

    Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s CLOTHING, but INWARDLY they are ravenous wolves. You will know (RECOGNIZE) THEM by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. THEREFORE, by their fruits you will know (RECOGNIZE) THEM.”

    I’ve capped several very key words (don’t, however, miss the fact that the entire passage is overflowing with keys/meaning and keywords), but again, the unveiling must come by revelation. As for Love which we practice (i.e. the practical side (of love and other intangible things)), it’s seen in consideration of each others. We can’t say, “Well, they’re old. What? They’re young”, because the Bible already says, “We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification. For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, ‘The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me'” (Rom. 15:1-3). This passage talks about Love or, in practice/practical language, consideration (feeling and bearing with: “[YOUR] reproaches… have fallen on [ME]”). I hope this makes sense.

  222. ValleyAnt Sep 11th 2013

    Colin, on true prophets, amen. Let me add an important part to prophets being those who receive from God and then speak; true prophets add to their receiving from God waiting UNTIL He sends or releases them to go or/and speak:

    Jeremiah 23:21-22 NKJV

    “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had [waited] in My counsel, and had caused My people to hear My words, then they would have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their doings.”

    What really makes a minister true? Is it signs (fulfilled words, miracles, etc.). The Bible does say that signs will ratify those who are true… but it never says signs won’t follow the false; rather, it warns that there’ll be many false whom ‘signs of authenticity’ (if we believe that it is primarily signs/successes that authenticate true ministers) follow. What makes a minister true isn’t his signs or success; it is his loyalty of heart to God. No one can simply be true in a vacuum; you must be true TO something. God knows: “The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.” While He works through even the apostate and shows signs through those who’ll hear, “I never knew you”, He only shows Himself strong through those who are true/loyal (to Him). Discerning who is who may be the hard part.

    While God tends to speak to apostles in the moment (“Do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak”– Mt. 10:19), He often speaks to prophets ahead of time, therefore, while apostles may hear in the moment and speak on and on till a Eutychus falls out a window, prophets don’t just hear and speak but also wait until they’re sent/released to speak. Prophets who do so are those prophets who are not just true (correct in what they say, successful in what they do) but are true (to God). Hope that is helpful.

  223. When we speak God’s word, we prophesy, but that doesn’t make us prophets, does it? Even a donkey can prophecy.

    We can even speak God’s word without realising it!
    So what differentiates one who prophecies from a prophet?

    Is the gift of the prophet to the Church different from the gift of prophecy?

  224. Averyl Sep 11th 2013

    Whoops, can’t even spell my own name!

  225. ValleyAnt Sep 11th 2013

    DonaldN, that passage is saying the elect won’t be deceived.

    Barry, well said.

    Claudia, there certainly are areas of greater concentration of spiritual power and presence, and those ancient beings are hovering wherever they are welcome.

    DonaldN, AJH, Zululander, re: going to church, each person should be led by the Lord. GaryB and AJH, only perfect Love protects us from deception (because as weird as it may seem, the Bible pairs Love and discernment… the more perfect one’s love, the more perfect his discernment, never the other way nor any other way). While our love is not perfect, we’ll already be deceived if we think love protects us from deception. Love protects us ACCORDING to our level of Love, because our discernment is based on our love, and our ability to discern correctly is energized or powered (like a battery) by our Love: “Love mixed with faith be yours from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 6:23)… “and this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may apPROVE the things that are excellent” (Phil. 1:9-10). Amen.

    Grant, keep in mind that many satanists are assigned to infiltrate churches; many of them are pastors and in leadership. This is to say that not all promoted church error is from Christians.

    Marilyn, amen. Thanks for that teaching about the fraternal twins, apostles and prophets. Wisdom and Light; “The [revelation] of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (Ps. 119:130).

    Watchful, yes. The call has been sounding to come out from unequal yokes and from among compromising Christians and to be planted among God’s People: “Why do you seek the Living [God] among the dead” (Lk. 24:5). (In v. 6, the angel continued, “He is not here” which is ‘where Jesus is’ (not there) in many churches today.)

    With that, goodnight all.

  226. ValleyAnt Sep 11th 2013

    Averyl, I hope you can consult the Bible for the answer I give you. You’re right that anyone can prophesy. Even false prophets like Balaam can tell the truth, speak God’s Word, receive correct words of knowledge from the Holy Spirit, prophesy correctly about a Messiah they don’t even know about, etc. So, what makes a person a prophet? God’s prerogative; when He says it (distinguishes between a prophet and one who prophesies, then there’s a difference:

    I Corinthians 12:28-30 NKJV

    And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

    Averyl, all may do miracles someday, but not all are apostles; all may heal someday, but not all are evangelistd; all may desire to prophesy and indeed prophesy, but though prophets will prophesy, not all who prophesy are prophets. When God makes a distinction, we should too.

  227. Hi Valleyant,

    Personally I believe that most of the people manifesting problems have moved in the works of the flesh ( see Gal5 :19-21) for so long that they obviously need deliverance from the demonic.
    The Increase in the use of drugs in post modern society from the 1960s onwards opened the door to what we are seeing manifested both in the world and church.
    Many of the false teachers nearly always confess a history of drug use and some involvement in the new age etc prior to them saying they became a christian (they needed deliverance).

    Drug use is biblically “sorcery/ witchcraft” the greek word being Pharmakea defined as ……
    1.the use or the administering of drugs.
    2 .poisoning.
    3 .sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
    4. metaph. The deceptions and seductions of idolatry.

    So those who have used recreational drugs to get into a altered state as the world likes to call it (we are not talking about takeing medicine for a person when they are sick) have partaken in sorcery.

    Drug use in the west is an epidemic, just think of how many people have tried them and the now obvious rise in the occult, spiritism etc going on in the world and amongst those who so called profess to be christian yet the words of their mouth and actions portray a different story altogether.
    But as the Lord would say to them repent and “THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE” .
    So keep preaching the Truth and take authority in the name of Jesus to set the captives free.
    Thank the Lord that our weapons are not carnal but mighty before God to the throwing down of strongholds (2Cor10:4).
    Keep up the good fight.

    Your Brother in Christ,

    Grant
    [email protected]

  228. Marilyn Crow Sep 11th 2013

    Thankyou ValleyAnt for your encouragement. I was thinking I may have gone over people`s head, as per usual. I liked your `Wisdom and Light; ` explanation –

    The [revelation] of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (Ps. 119:130)

    Averyl, I can see it would be difficult to understand the difference between those who prophecy & those who are Prophets. I was brought up in the `50`s with Prophets & those who prophecy. It was quite obvious the difference.

    To explain the difference in everyday language you would at first notice back in the `50`s that the shorthand ladies (my mother & others) would be busy scribbling the prophecies so they could be printed up for others to read later etc.

    The Prophets spoke for ages, sometimes half an hour or so. While the prophecies from others were shorter. But obviously that is not the criteria. But just a first impression.

    Then next thing you would notice as you heard or read the prophecies is that those of the Prophet were of a deeper revelation & concerned the purposes of God in Christ whereas the general prophecies were of an encouraging & exhorting nature.

    The Apostle would always speak of what the Prophet or prophecy was so that the mind of Christ would come forth from his gifting also.

    Then there is the counsel of the elders, (Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists & other Elders). There would come from the Prophet specific direction & revelation in regards to Christ`s direction for that time to the oversight.

    We have yet to see these two giftings function in the setting we are in at the moment but we can be sure Christ is raising them up for such a time as this.

    Marilyn.

  229. Grant wrote:
    So those who have used recreational drugs to get into a altered state as the world likes to call it (we are not talking about takeing medicine for a person when they are sick) have partaken in sorcery. quote……….

    Grant
    How to you make the difference here? Drugs obtained illegally or drugs prescribed?

    Many prescription drugs are mind altering, take for example “Xanax”, one among many prescription drugs. Many drugs abused on the streets are prescription drugs as well. I am constantly hearing of people on medically prescribed drugs who become addicted.

    I have tried to get to the root of this word in revelations for years. That is the Greek word “Pharmakeus” which we get our modern day word “Pharmacy”.

    The word Pharmacy implies “all” drugs, not just ones on the street. What your saying is use of street drugs means you need deliverance but use of medically prescribed drugs is okay to take.

    How do you arrive at this distinction? I would think if a Doctor prescribed drugs and it altered someones mind it would be an open door to the demonic. There are a huge amount of people in America who take xanax and valium ect. ect..

    Any rate I have ask a lot of people about this scripture and no one seems to know. Pharmacy is where one would get legal drugs not illegal street drugs.

    Just curious here about the distinction, where one is considered sorcery and the other is acceptable.

    GaryB

  230. Hi Gary,

    Its the purpose they are used for determines it like almost thing eg..
    Morphine for the badly wounded in the battlefield for pain relief (right use) . Morphine for a ordinary person not in pain createing addiction (wrong use).
    My statement was qualified so that someone without common sense could not missunderstand what I was trying to say and stopped takeing there medicines like insulin for example, which is not the sort of drug being spoken about in the Bible sense.. why? qualify it because common sense is getting rare nowadays.
    Its like when a person is healed by God of something … tell them to go to the doctor to be checked …why? because if you are healed then they will confirm it and they are not placed in danger, Jesus did it … he told the lepers to go to to priests so the could be cleared to go back into society.
    Medicine isn’t evil, nore the medical profession , but theres a great deal modern medicine recognises as non physical problems that they are trying to find answers for that really only God can cure.

    It comes as no surprise your conformation of the wide spread use of mind altering drugs in America.
    Most if us outside the USA are grieved by your delimma, most think theres something really wrong with the health system for things to be going on like that.

    As for so called legal highs, well prostitution is legal in my country New Zealand…..its not morally right though because the bible condemns it.
    Your conscience knows the difference.

    As for christians who couldn’t give you answers, whats surpriseing about that nowadays …they dont know the bible.
    I wasn’t quoteing Revelations… check every reference in the whole bible on the subject in context and you’ll find your answers easily.
    Remember anything can become an idol or made an idol.
    We all should ask ourselves what do we worship and what are we dependent on?….. the answer should be Jesus Christ.

    In Christ,

    Grant,

    [email protected]

  231. Hi all,

    Are some so called prophets createing prophecy addicts?.
    Only saying that because I find it disturbing that some so called prophets start claiming that they will have a prophecy for everyone who comes to them or their meetings.
    Sounds almost like fortune telling.
    God only determines who He speaks to and through,when and where, how and why.

    Regards,

    Grant

  232. Grant,

    I know of ministers who would include this verse in revelations on Pharmakous to mean all drugs.

    Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and “sorcerers”, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Sorcerers is translated from the Greek word “Pharmakous”.

    I think this is the only place in the NT it is mentioned.

    In Galations 5:20 it is translated witchcraft from the word Pharmakeia which sorcery is used in English while sorcerers is Pharmakous.

    In the old Testament sorcery only refers to the occult and magic, etc..

    Just trying to sort all of this out. I am a firm believer that Jesus is still healing today, but If someone has to take remedies that is between them and the Lord. I have seen people healed by the Lord who no longer needed remedies.

    I read this statement in a book this morning and thought it was good:

    “Do you know how you can tell when something is an idol in your life?”

    “By how big a fight you put up when it’s taken from
    you.”
    Many of the things we fight over are likely idols in our lives. We get angry when something we adore is
    taken from us or when we fear that it might be taken from us.

    Any rate thanks for sharing here.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  233. watchful Sep 11th 2013

    Lightning Storm, all I can say in response is thank God for the cross, thank God, thank God! for without it we would all be destroyed and we might as well just give up now! Looking back at the Old Testament, thank God that we can now look at it through the cross that comes between us and condemnation and He does not treat us as our sins deserve. What I have found in the churches is that there is an epidemic of having fallen away from grace and that this is behind their not being able to receive a love of the truth. For without the cross, who can afford to the love the truth, the truth condemns us all, without exception.

    Psa 103:8-14

    The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

    He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

    He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

    For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

    As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

    Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

    For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

    The irony is that the cross is for those who know they need it. Grace only avails when we know we need it, every minute of every hour of every day. It is for those who fear the Lord….and to fear the Lord is to hate sin. (Prov. 8:13). Our own first of all. As for those who would use grace as a license to sin, you find that such do not fear the Lord and for that reason grace doesn’t avail for them. Another irony is that those who use grace as a license to sin actually are the same ones who have fallen away from it.
    They talk about grace all the time but they know nothing of it in reality. I just felt this was important to say lest any here fall away out of sheer discouragement.

  234. Grant,

    One more thing before I leave for work.

    Smith Wigglesworth was one of the ministers I am thinking of. He said he saw there will come a time when men would but more faith in remedies then in the Lord.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  235. Reb mentioned Art Katz and the powerful prophetic anointing he functioned under. My question to all is does anyone here know of anyone today that has this quality of prophetic anointing? I can not think of any.

    Does it not seem that when true prophets of the recent past have died they have not been replaced in kind? Does it not seem that false prophets took their place? What does this say about the future of the Church and what God is doing?

  236. Lightning Storm Sep 11th 2013

    Watchful….unfortunately people don’t RECOGNIZE that we DO GET WHAT WE DESERVE.

    The sin nature of man PROJECTS its own CONCEPTS of what a person DESERVES unto Almighty God, then the person thinks they ESCAPED because that CONCEPT didn’t occur.

    A born again christian’s spirit is transformed and made pure, holy, and sinless by the blood of Jesus Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit…….it therefore gets what that transformation deserves…..Heavenly Fellowship with Almighty God.

    An UNTRANSFORMED soul will also get what it deserves, both in this life and the afterlife.

  237. Lightning Storm Sep 11th 2013

    PS……a born again christian can have an UNTRANSFORMED SOUL.

    Throw your IDOLS and gods into the Fire of God.

  238. DonaldN Sep 11th 2013

    I will give you an example of a false prophet.
    The Lord has said of certain knowledge ” this informatio is not available to you”
    a man comes into your midst saying “I have studied the word and I know this information”
    do you readily follow this man because you desire to know what God has said you shall not know.

  239. Lightning Storm Sep 11th 2013

    So which is it?

    First it has been said that TRUE PROPHETS would not seek the limelight.

    Then it has been said, “Why don’t we HEAR ABOUT PROPHETS TODAY THAT HAVE THE SAME POWERFUL ANOINTING AS PAST PROPHETS?”

    Could it be that today’s POWERFUL PROPHETS are right under your noses…..in your town; in your area; in your church?
    And these PROPHETS of GOD have been REJECTED just as Jesus was rejected in His own home area?

    Why was Jesus rejected? He was too COMMON; He did not FULFILL THEIR EVERY WISH; He did not FULFILL THEIR DREAMS AS TO WHAT THE MESSIAH WOULD LOOK LIKE OR ACT LIKE.
    His teachings did not line up with the teachings heard at the synagogues.
    He taught strange and “new” things they had never heard before.
    He did not live a life of what you would EXPECT from a MAN OF GOD.

    I’m sure there are more reasons that can be added to this list……and this list is still TRUE TODAY…..nothing new under the sun.

  240. watchful Sep 11th 2013

    Beg to differ Lightening Storm, I must agree with the scripts…..as blood-bought born again believers we don’t get what we deserve, we get what we need. That’s a whole different attitude. We are chastised as sons not as enemies, and who isn’t chastised isn’t a son. Those who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness are being filled, and it doesn’t come easy. Jesus who was sinless learned obedience by the things which He suffered, God forbid that anyone would consider that He got what He deserved. And we are called to fill up that which is behind of His sufferings, that is not getting what we deserve, in fact that is often getting what others deserve (though that too has to come to us through the cross). Did Paul get what he deserved? He suffered terribly. No dear sibling, I’m sorry to take exception but something needs to be reconsidered if we are looking at the Law and OT judgments without also taking into account the cross and God’s redemptive purposes in the lives of those who belong to Him.

  241. watchful Sep 11th 2013

    Our posts crossed, L.S., I wasn’t responding to your last one above.

  242. Lightning Storm Sep 11th 2013

    watchful………sentiment does not carry any weight.
    Who says SUFFERING is ONLY PUNISHMENT? or ONLY EVIL?
    It is the carnal flesh that equates ALL SUFFERING with EVIL or PUNISHMENT.

    Either God is SOVEREIGN or He’s NOT.

    God’s SOVEREIGN WILL cannot be thwarted….therefore, it was God’s SOVEREIGN WILL that Paul suffered, as well as anyone else who suffers on this planet.

    What does the word “deserve” mean?

    de·serve (Merriam Webster Dictionary)
    verb \di-ˈzərv\
    de·served de·serv·ing

    Definition of DESERVE
    transitive verb
    : TO BE WORTHY OF : merit
    intransitive verb
    : to be worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward or requital

    Origin of DESERVE
    Middle English, from Anglo-French deservir, from Latin deservire to devote oneself to, from de- + servire
    TO SERVE

    Synonyms
    earn, merit, rate

    Related Words
    entitle, qualify

    Vine’s agrees with Merriam Webster Dictionary also.

    Suffering can be BOTH REWARDING OR PUNISHING.
    Either way …..we are GIVEN WHAT WE DESERVE according to the Justice and Righteous Judgments of God….not mankind’s ideas.

  243. ValleyAnt Sep 12th 2013

    Grant, yes, there are people using drugs and all that, but I’m speaking especially and specifically of worshipers of satan who pose in churches, Christian TV, and other Christian organizations and groups as ministers but who are occultists. And yes, there are ‘prophecy addicts’ out there who receive from every so-called prophet; but soon, the distinguishing mark between the false and true prophet won’t be this and that but holiness or the sense of the Lord and His Dignity (Lordship) about the prophet or minister.

    Marilyn, you’re welcome. The Bible, from the OT to the NT, speaks often about apostolic and prophetic ministries and their pairing together, often referring to wisdom (revelation)– apostolic ministry– and light (understanding)– prophetic ministry: “Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore, get wisdom; and in all your getting, get understanding” (Pro. 4:7). They go together. Your explanation to Averyl on prophets vs. prophetic words is good.

    GaryB, there are many seemingly wide statements like the one about idolatry you read this morning in that book; however, maybe the author shouldn’t be so quick to define idolatry that way as I’m sure that we’d fight to keep our phones, cars, homes, children, spouses, clothes, shelter (I purposely distinguish shelters from homes), and water… but the fact that we fight to keep them doesn’t make those things idols. If this partial definition was true of idolatry, then we’re all in trouble. It’s important to distinguish what an idol is rather than to appear knowledgeable.

    Marty, that’s an excellent question about false prophets taking the place of the true. Can you please expound on or explain further your question? I’d like to understand exactly what you’re asking.

    DonaldN, can you explain about a prophet claiming to know what God says can’t be known? That sounds a little confusing. Aren’t we to know ministers by their fruits.

    Lightning Storm, you said that it’s God’s will for all to suffer who suffer. I think it’s wise if we all stick with the topics at hand rather than running off alone into the woods. The issue of suffering is much too vast a topic for anyone but God to summarize so easily. Did Job and Jesus get what they deserved in suffering? “Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore, get wisdom” (Pro. 4:7). It’s better, my friend, to wait before running into the fray to tackle gargantuan and colossal issues such as that of human suffering. David didn’t run blindly into the valley to tackle Goliath; he took faith, experience in warfare, and a few good stones (i.e. ‘the assurance of salvation’). If you don’t have weapons that you’ve successfully used to defeat giants (worldwide issues) in the past, you shouldn’t attempt to fight a giant (the worldwide issue of human suffering) with no weapons at all.

  244. Lightning Storm Sep 12th 2013

    Everyone can believe as they wish, ValleyAnt.
    God gives us the freedom to reject whatever we wish to reject……

    Soon, the Truth will be clear and pure to each person, without the “cloudiness” of the fallen human nature.

    And then, we will give an answer for every word, thought, and deed after we were born again, and why we failed to believe every word that comes from His mouth; and why we failed to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ when we had the FULNESS OF GOD….the Power of God living within us.

  245. ValleyAnt wrote: however, maybe the author shouldn’t be so quick to define idolatry that way as I’m sure that we’d fight to keep our phones, cars, homes, children, spouses, clothes, shelter (I purposely distinguish shelters from homes), and water…

    If this partial definition was true of idolatry, then we’re all in trouble. Quote…………….

    ValleyAnt
    I’ll let you hear it from Jesus the Son of God.

    Luke 14:33
    So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

    Lord Bless,
    GaryB

  246. When Jesus told some people that He healed “go and show thyself to the priests”, He was not telling them to go get a physical exam to make sure your healed.

    The reason Jesus said, Go show thyself to the priests is because in the Old Testament they were told by God that when they were healed of certain diseases they were to go to the priests and to offer certain sacrifices as a command from the Lord.

    Leviticus 14:

    2 “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. 3 And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper, 4 then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop.

    quote……Its like when a person is healed by God of something … tell them to go to the doctor to be checked …why? because if you are healed then they will confirm it and they are not placed in danger, quote………………….

    Danger of what?

    I don’t see this in the Bible when Jesus sent out His disciples he did not say heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons and then send them to man to verify that I can and really did heal someone. Anywhere you read in the gospels Jesus was constantly rebuking people for their unbelief in His ability to heal.

    While medical science has made some wonderful advancements in the last century they will always be limited in their ability to cure disease.

    Why?

    Because disease is part of the curse of the law and man will never be able to remove the curse from mankind. Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law, and only God has the ability to totally heal men on this earth.

    Medical science is man’s creation to try and solve this world’s ailments. Sometimes I think we send out a mixed message to the world. Jesus is the healer we tell them but you need to go to a man to make sure that God can heal you.

    The facts are most of the time men choose medical science rather then trust the Lord. Why are so many not healed maybe its because we are looking to man rather then the Lord.

    It is better to trust in the Lord then to put your confidence in men.

    I know this does not set well with most in Christianity, but what will men do when you have to take the mark of the beast to go to medical science to get your medicine?

    All I am saying is God is not a man that He should lie, one of His redemptive names in the Old Testament is: I am The Lord thy Healer. In the New Testament Jesus bore away our disease and sickness at the cross.

    If your going to pray for somebody I don’t think there is any “danger” unless maybe you think God won’t heal them.

    When God does raise up prophets in the earth they will be staying with the revealed Word of God and they will not side in with man’s unbelief, nor will they make it fit modern day theology.

    Lord Bless,
    Gary

  247. Marilyn Crow Sep 12th 2013

    Marty, you asked……

    `My question to all is does anyone here know of anyone today that has this quality of prophetic anointing? I can not think of any.

    Does it not seem that when true prophets of the recent past have died they have not been replaced in kind? Does it not seem that false prophets took their place? What does this say about the future of the Church and what God is doing?`

    It can seem that way Marty because the false gets the air space, where as the true prophets – some mature ones are doing God`s will where they are & some developing ones are being formed in the desert for God`s next stage.

    Now I do personally know true prophets here in Australia & in New Zealand. I went to Bible College in New Zealand in the `80`s & worked along side a young man who has eventually been recognised as a Prophet. He came over to Australia & visited our fellowship in the `90`s & was a humble man with God`s word in his heart & mouth.

    In our relational network now (outside the denominational structure) there is a Prophet who was recognised by the organisation & who is now learning of God to operate in this different arena. We also relate into people in organisations & do not try to cause division but see all believers who listen to the Lord as under His Lordship.

    Christ is still the Head of the Body of Christ & as we have not yet come to the unity of Faith (what is true of Christ`s character & His purposes) then these 5 fold ministries of Christ will still operate.

    `He gave some ….Prophets…..until we all attain to the unity of the faith ….to the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 – 13)

    It is our part to trust & believe that our Lord Jesus Christ will accomplish this task. Be encourage He is in control though you do not see….but the `waves`.

    Marilyn.