This video speaks of the amazing things that happen when you take new believers out healing the sick, preaching and baptizing, etc. Take a look! –

by Andrew Strom

Last week we published a video of an old friend of mine, Torben
Sondergaard, as he prayed for the sick on the streets and in the
supermarkets of America. The deaf were healed and the lame
walked – right on camera. But some people who saw the video
reacted quite badly. Maybe it was the fact that the video started
with “legs growing out” instead of the more impressive healings –
I don’t know. But it seems there is a lot of cynicism out there.

I have actually known Torben personally for 5 or 6 years. I have
stayed in his home and spent time with his family. I know his
writings and his preaching. To me, he is one of the few preachers
in Denmark who fully represents the gospel as it should be
preached. He stands for repentance, holiness and reformation
in a way that made us “click” together like old friends right away.
So it really upsets me to hear all the accusations people are
making – who don’t know the first thing about him.


Since the Todd Bentley debacle and other waves of “Charis-
mania” in recent times, it is very easy to become cynical about
healings and miracles, etc. I can understand that. But I have
always been very clear that true healings, prophecies, dreams,
visions and miracles should be absolutely EXPECTED as a
totally normal part of everyday Christian life. In fact, without them
it is very doubtful that we have true “Bible” Christianity at all. So
it deeply grieves me to see people getting so cynical that they
“nitpick” every instance of the supernatural or the gifts of the
Holy Spirit to death. It has got to the point where I can hardly
post any of these things on my website without rafts of cynical
comments that try to pick apart every aspect of them.

My friends, that is not discernment. It is the spirit of “writing off
everything.” It is unwarranted accusation and nit-picking. It is the
“other ditch” on the far side of the road. Some fall into the ditch
of “hyper-grace” and ‘hyper-charismania’. Others fall into the
opposite ditch of Legalism and “cynicism of anything supernatural”.
Both of these ditches are equally dangerous. It is just as deadly
to become the type that “accuses first” and asks questions later.
A very dangerous cynicism takes hold at that point. Just like the
Pharisees. I think a lot of people need to repent.

We cannot just be focused on what is “wrong”. At some point
we have to be about establishing what is ‘right’. We have to go
forward into the “True” thing. Not just be exposing the False.
And the time has come to start in that direction.

I believe Torben has been shown a number of things that are
truly “revolutionary” – but also very simple – about getting back
to New Testament Christianity. Literally “what to do” to get
back there. That is why he and I agree on so many things. But
Torben is actually seeing it work IN PRACTICE. It is actually
happening. New Testament Christianity – right before your eyes.
So I am going to be featuring a lot more of Torben’s stuff on here.

Let me give you an example. Torben believes in taking new
Christians out on the street very quickly to pray for the sick and
share the gospel. He believes this is a vital part of true “disciple-
ship”. Just like Jesus did with his own disciples. I have just posted
a brief video (above) where Torben discusses the amazing things that
happen when this is done. Please take a look. You will be glad you did.

God bless you all. – Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles and TV & Videos by Andrew on July 3rd, 2013 at 7:46 am.


193 Replies

  1. Lightning Storm Jul 3rd 2013

    Andrew Strom…

    This video and your words have brought me to tears…..tears of joy, excitement, and thanksgiving to Almighty God.

    Torben’s testimonies and teachings have increased my faith and given me confirmation.

    Holy Spirit encouragement is rare these days. I see and hear more “flattery” than encouragement.

    Thank you Lord. And thank you Andrew and Torben.

  2. Marilyn Crow Jul 3rd 2013

    Thank you Andrew for this next follow up of Torben. What excited my heart was the fact that he is discipling & mentoring others as the Lord said. The simplicity, the sincerity & humbleness is so refreshing to see.

    Just a glimpse of God`s great work. Marilyn.

  3. GaryB Jul 3rd 2013

    Finally some very edifying and encouraging articles.

    Its a little annoying in other articles when everyone is living in the future worrying about the thousand year reign and who does what during the tribulation.

    Today is the day of salvation, work while it is yet day.

    John 9:4
    I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.


  4. David m Jul 3rd 2013

    “a man’s steps are ordered by the Lord, and He ponders all of his goings”…this is the word I received while watching this video…”He watches over His Word to Perform It”!


    David m

  5. David Jul 3rd 2013

    I´m really excited about God doing miracles in Evangelism…But like someone else already pointed out: Shouldn´t one also combine these Healings with the Gospel of Repentance? After all thats what the miracles are meant to confirm…

  6. Sandy Jul 3rd 2013

    I loved the videos! This is the church! And it is the church of the future. Years ago The Lord said there would be no more one man doing all the ministry but the sheep ministering to the sheep, one on one! Thank you Lord Jesus! This is how His Kingdom comes in the earth!

  7. Andrew Jul 3rd 2013

    David – repentance is exactly what Torben preaches


  8. Thank you for posting those videos.

    35 years of not seeing healings and being told they don’t happen today have a very bad effect on my faith, and I need this to show me that it doesn’t have to be like that after all!

  9. Sandy Jul 3rd 2013

    Also, please read what our Jesus did. He healed people SOMETIMES He spoke to them of repentance OFTEN not. Leaving them to hunger and thirst after more. Please let the Holy Spirit discern, not flesh judgement!! We have almost lost the ability to discern. That is a result of a lack of intemacy with our Lord!!!!

  10. That’s it…. Jesus said “heal the sick, raise the dead, open the eyes of the blind”. He said it and that settles it.

    The flip side is “we did these things in your name” and Jesus replied ” depart from me you workers of lawlessness”.

  11. Karen Jul 3rd 2013

    My thoughts are this, it is absolutely a wonderful thing and most important to see this taking place in the world in which we live. Our steps are to grow brighter and brighter. Jesus said ‘greater works than these shall you do’! We are living in a dark age where sin and selfishness have been taking over the church. It should not be an amazing thing to see the hand of the Lord working through one of His servants, but because the church has waxed cold we feel these are amazing works. We are seeing a hunger and thirst for God even though people don’t even know what they’re hungry for. They want hope, need hope and the only hope is found in God! Jesus will outshine all when His servants take their proper place in the kingdom.

  12. Gillian Jul 3rd 2013

    At last – this gives me hope – I was beginning to think God had forgotten us who are ill = Yes, I always believed He heals today – He just doesn’t heal me – No I won’t let that effect me – I love Jesus and always will and will always endeavour to follow Him as His Word says – Trust and obey – I will.

  13. Sandy Jul 3rd 2013

    Sean, son your spirit is so not in tune with Jesus Hearts cry. You mean well but you are not.

  14. Great stuff! I’d take issue with just one thing — the gifts of healings are for the common good of both the Body of Christ (the context of 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, and the public at large (where the Apostle Paul also was used of God for healing, prophecy, and so on).

  15. christine Jul 3rd 2013

    Thank you!

  16. Nancy Louise Jul 3rd 2013

    I really liked the video. this man has understanding of what it is all about, going to the needy.Groups of youth go out in Redding, Ca to pray for people.

  17. goodwordtoday Jul 3rd 2013

    Thanks, Andrew – keep posting the solutions. We’ve seen enough of the problems. I agree with Rev. Susan – healing is for everywhere, not just outside the church. Jesus healed in the synagogue too. Maybe it’s just a different expectation outside that makes it more likely to see results. Fewer religious spirits to break through maybe? Only God knows.

  18. Barry Schmidt Jul 3rd 2013

    OMG! What is wrong with people? People who claim to be believe in Jesus who don’t even recognize Him when He is in one if His servants doing exactly what He always does- loving ordinary people, healing the sick, casting out demons and preaching good news???
    How will you ever recognize Jesus if you can’t recognize him in these videos?

    You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (Acts 10:38 NASB)

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 NASB)

    Come on people! You need to get saved from your unbelief and your incredulity!

  19. Amen. This is what every believer should be doing – preach the gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons. We are to give witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, that He is alive in us doing the same works and even greater works. Watch this video about the people of God revealing the glory of God and you too will do the works of Jesus:

  20. When the people of faith resort to a charletan’s trick of claiming to grow legs, when a persons swivel of the hip or stretching forth of their leg makes it seem as though Yeshua is in the ministry of stretching legs out an extra half inch.

    Such a sad time. But I guess that’s what powerless religion us all about.

    All glory to Yeshua who opens blind eyes, deaf ears, causes the lame to walk and the dead to rise.

    All others are imitations as Scripture warns.

  21. Jonathan
    Yes, there are charlatans who do as you say regarding shortened legs. But there are some who do have shortened legs and corresponding back problems.

    I know of a man whose leg was 1.5″ shorter than the other. All of his pants were tailored to reflect that. After ministry, the leg grew out. That was 25 years ago and it never went back.

    Just because there are counterfeits, is no reason to deny when God does something. Too many of us have gone too far the other way as a result of the charismania hype and false revivals. That may have been more of satans intent than the immediate deceptions he caused. Ruining the faith of the faithful is most important to him. Don’t let him do it to you

  22. Kathy Jul 3rd 2013

    Guess most like the overblown antics that most of today’s healers/preachers do. Sorry, but Torben is so “real” and sincere.. I just cried watching the video. Are people insinuating that the people prayed for were actors?

  23. agape. Jul 3rd 2013

    Praise the Lord for the doers of God’s word a d not hearers only. I have been greatly encouraged by these videos. My kids and I actually went out and did it too. We begged my unbelieving husband to let us pray for him. He had gout and after two weeks of taking his meds and diet, he was still getting worse. And guess what happened? Jesus healed him. Ha, ha, ha! To all you dear brethren who choose to criticize, please repent and instead get out there and do it. You will see it works.

  24. Merrill Jul 3rd 2013

    The single most encouraging thing is right at the end when the “healers” admit that they feel nothing, meaning they are operating strictly by faith and obedience.

  25. Trying to be hopeful Jul 3rd 2013

    Andrew and Torben, you are positively RIGHT ON! Don’t for one moment let the cynics and hopelessness-mongers drag you down. Keep standing strong in the Lord and preaching and demonstrating the Truth in these last days.

  26. The choice to believe that God heals today is choice made by each believer. How he heals is also a choice made by each believer because many think different on this also. I have experience many healing on the streets and meetings out side the church because the church is afraid these healing might take. their church out of control by the gifted one’s. My experience has shown me that a manifested miracle of God will always shake people who do not believe because it is not logical or normal and will cause brains who do not believe to go haywire for short period of time because logical dots will not connect with supernatural dots.

  27. TheDude Jul 3rd 2013

    I agree with Andrew that there is a difference between cynicism and discernment. Having said that however, God never asks us to throw our common sense out the window. Sadly, Torben chose to include the oldest parlor trick in the book, making someone’s supposedly shorter leg grow longer. This has been an old staple of magicians and phony faith healers for a very long time. I can “perform” this trick myself. Sadly, it is no miracle.

    In addition, the supposed anatomical phenomenon of a shorter leg, has been used by chiropractors as well. Read this article:

    Regarding sending out new believers to heal people, I don’t see the parallels to that in the New Testament. Jesus had His disciples with him for a year or more, probably every day, before sending them out. Further, He personally commissioned them to perform these miracles. We never see any of the apostles commissioning new believers to go out and do this. There were plenty of opportunities for this to be mentioned in the New Testament, but we never see it happening.

    Finally, Andrew you know I appreciate your zeal and commitment for what you do. I will continue to respect you for that. There have been times that you have fallen prey to allowing your zeal to post a story that was later found out to be untrue or not of the Lord. To your credit, you were honest and admitted as such.

    We need to be discerning in love, yet remain true to God’s Word. To Torben, I would say that if what you are doing is of the Lord, you don’t need to go around tooting your own horn about it. Just quietly go about the Lord’s work without regard to the attention it brings to you personally. God doesn’t need your help in getting His truth out.

  28. Torben and Ronald did say that they ‘felt nothing’ when they prayed for people who were healed. Torben himself said ‘we NEVER feel anything’, but didn’t Jesus feel something when the power of God flowed from Him into the woman who had the issue of blood?

    Luke 8:43-46

    “Now a woman, having a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her livelihood on physicians and could not be healed by any, came from behind and touched the border of His garment. And immediately her flow of blood stopped. And Jesus said, “Who touched Me?” When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” But Jesus said, “Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me.”

  29. I will post a few excerpts from the book “Your Power In The Holy Spirit” by John G Lake, who I personally believe was a man used mightily by God to advance His Kingdom in the early 1900’s.

    “God answered that heart cry in the following manner. At that instant, I observed my friend was motioning me to come and join him in prayer for the woman who was sick. In his absorption, he had not observed that anything had taken place in me. I arose to go to him but found my body was trembling so violently that I had great difficulty in walking across the room, and especially in controlling the trembling of my hands and arms. I was familiar with sick people, having ministered to them for so many years. I knew it would not be wise to thus lay my hands upon the sick woman, as I was likely to jar her.

    It occurred to me that all that was necessary was to touch the tips of my fingers on the top of the patient’s head, and then the vibrations would not jar her. This I did. At once, the currents of holy power passed through my being, and I knew that it likewise passed through the one who was sick. She did not speak but apparently was amazed at the effect in her body. My friend, who had been talking to her, had been kneeling as he talked to her in his great earnestness. He arose, saying, “Let us pray that the Lord will now heal you.”

    As he did so, he took her by the hand. At the instant their hands touched, a flash of dynamic power went through my person and through the sick woman, and as my friend held her hand, the shock of power passed through her hand into him. The rush of power into his person was so great that it caused him to fall on the floor. He looked up at me with joy and surprise and, springing to his feet, said, “Praise the Lord, John, Jesus has baptized you in the Holy Ghost!”

  30. Jda016 Jul 3rd 2013

    I believe this goes along with the last revival article by Wilkerson. I believe what Torben is doing is just the tip of the iceberg of what is to come. I see a specific calling for healing on his life for street ministry. He even said that it doesn’t really work in the church and that it is easier to believe for someone to be healed that you are never going to see again. Boy! Is that ever the truth! It is so much harder to believe for healing when you see the sickness in a person everyday.

    I praise God for the healing that God does through him and yet my heart is saddened by the lack of healing for saints suffering in the Church.

    Again I see Torben’s ministry as very specific as it relates to showing the wonders and love of God to non-believers in the street. Praise God that He has given Torben this gift!

    I also believe, and this falls in line with the Wilkerson article, that a specific outpouring is coming where the miracles of God are going to be so manifest and evident and powerful that no one will ever be able to deny them.

    I just read Luke 7 where Jesus raises the widow’s son from the dead and great fear and rejoicing fell on all the crowd. They all responded that “truly God has come to Israel.”

    I believe we are moving In a Direction where everyone is going to say “Truly God has visited us!” I believe we will see believers so full of God’s spirit walk into a Veteran’s hospital and heal every amputee and solider who has lost a limb or body part. They will walk into a children’s hospital and clear it out, even patients who had chemo for cancer will have their hair grow back. Mental facilities will be empty because everyone will be given a sound mind, just like the man with the legion of demons in him.

    This is just my personal belief and not only will we do all that God commands us, but His very Glory will go before us.

  31. Excerpt taken from “Your Power In The Holy Spirit” By John G Lake.

    “You see, people have been so in the habit of putting Jesus in a class by Himself that they have failed to recognize that He has made provision for the same living Spirit of God that dwelt in His own life, and of which He Himself was a living manifestation, to inhabit your being and mine, just as the Spirit inhabited the being of Jesus or Paul.

    There is no more marvelous manifestation in the life of Jesus than that manifestation of healing through the apostle Paul.

    Do you remember the incident of the woman who touched the hem of Jesus’ garment? Knowing how His whole being, His whole nature, radiated that wondrous, blessed life of God of which He was Himself the living manifestation, she said within herself, “If I can but touch His garment, I shall be healed.” (See Matthew 9:21; Mark 5:28.) So she succeeded after much effort in touching the hem of His garment, and as she touched the hem of His garment, there flowed into her body the quickening lifestream, and she felt in her body that she was made whole of the plague. And Jesus, being conscious that something had flowed from Him, said to Peter, “Who touched Me?”

    Peter replied, “Why, Master, You see the crowd, and do You still ask, ‘Who touched Me?’”

    “I know somebody touched Me,” He said, “for I perceive that virtue has gone out of Me.” (See Mark 5:25–34.) If you will analyze that Greek word, you will see it means the life or substance of His being, the quickening, living power of God, the very nature and being of God.”

  32. chas351 Jul 3rd 2013

    Torben is doing what God has commssioned him to do & i think thats Awesome! (John said “no one can have anything unless God gives it to him” Jn3:27)

    Isaiah Saldivar is doing the same thing today>

  33. chas351 Jul 3rd 2013


    i would be interested in your comments on Isaiah Saldivar who has miracles happening on the streets, in his home and in church.

  34. Time will tell if Torben has been sent by God to do the ministry works of Jesus as His ambassador on this earth.

    The day is coming when nobody will question who is of God and who is not, because gross darkness will cover the earth and the people, but the glory of the Lord will be SEEN upon HIS people!

    Isaiah 60:2

    “For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.”

  35. I believe in the Power of the Lord to do miracles. However I can understand the skepticism of people not about the miracles but the structure and functioning of christianity.

    There is a MIXTURE that has always been christianity. The Lord will honor the heart that seeks Him and is humble before Him, even if there are areas of the person’s life which are not in full obedience to Him.

    The roots of christianity are in roman catholicism and there are many man made doctrines that are christianity. Many people do things they think please the Lord but don’t stop and think or ask if the Lord is indeed pleased…

    I found this with water immersion in the Name of the Lord. A friend of mine said that it is unimportant how we “baptize” – our job is just to save sinners.

    Is this the way we find out first what pleases the Lord, or is it man’s view of what The Lord should be pleased with? What was the root practice in “baptism?” it was the Jewish Mikvah, which was extremely important, even more important than the synagogue or the Torah scroll, which they could sell to build the Mikvah.

    In the book of Acts we see many situations of water immersions or “baptism.” None of them literally follow Matthew 28. One one scripture the practice is built by many “churches” and the fact of doing something based one scripture is itself against the Word that requires 2 or 3 witnesses. 2Corinth 13:1. We find that the change from the book of Acts was imposed by the roman catholic system…

    The major issue is that we are dealing with the spirit realm and we can have confusion if we touch the unclean thing – the unclean thing is an idol…

    In spiritual confusion demons operate as angels of light, and they will “operate in the gifts of the spirit” but the spirit is of the enemy. They will do miracles and mighty works like the magicians in the palace of pharoah, when Moses, on the Lord’s instruction, had his staff turned into a snake…

    This is why our judgment should be, only on the fruits of the person’s life; not on the power being displayed; and one of those fruits is their love, respect and reverence for the Lord in seeking to please Him by following His Instructions, not their idea of what it is to love Him, and expect Him to be pleased.

    Ultimately each person is responsible for themselves – Romans 14:4. We should let the Lord direct people in their belief. In 2Timothy 2 we are told that the servant of the Lord instructs but it is the Lord who will give the other person instruction.

    Yes, the Todd Bentley type situation has made people skeptical in a more overt sense, however the discomfort with many issues rooted in spiritual deception in the practice and structure of christianity, already existed.

    Let us lead people to the Lord and let them be taught to reason out with the Lord and learn from Him, as He invites them to do so in the book of Isaiah. He told us that He is our ONLY Teacher – Matthew 23:8-10; and the 5 fold ministry He has gifted to His Body, is Him, so let us seek His understanding to find out who are those of Him and those who are false “5 fold ministers.”

    The Lord has put His Teachings (laws) in our hearts where we do not have to ask others but will know inherently His Will – Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33-34.

    Those who are the Sons of G-d are led by Him- Romans 8:14. See also John 1:12-13.

  36. I also believe, and this falls in line with the Wilkerson article, that a specific outpouring is coming where the miracles of God are going to be so manifest and evident and powerful that no one will ever be able to deny them.

    I just read Luke 7 where Jesus raises the widow’s son from the dead and great fear and rejoicing fell on all the crowd. They all responded that “truly God has come to Israel.”

    I believe we are moving In a Direction where everyone is going to say “Truly God has visited us!” I believe we will see believers so full of God’s spirit walk into a Veteran’s hospital and heal every amputee and solider who has lost a limb or body part. They will walk into a children’s hospital and clear it out, even patients who had chemo for cancer will have their hair grow back. Mental facilities will be empty because everyone will be given a sound mind, just like the man with the legion of demons in him.

    This is just my personal belief and not only will we do all that God commands us, but His very Glory will go before us.

    Amen Jonathan, Amen Lord – come Lord Jesus through Your Church to demonstrate Your Gospel – the Power of Your Gospel – to the world… 🙂

    namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19 NASB)

    O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him! (Psalm 34:8 NASB)

    What you have been through with your mother has strengthened your faith and established the hunger in you to see this established – this healing – this fullness of what is promised in the atonement – in the world in which you live…

    Praise You Jesus… 🙂

    Lift him up so that he experiences this practically himself and out of the overflow is overflowing – Your Power through him – to others, to everyone he comes in contact with… 🙂

    Thank You Jesus,

    Love you brother, the Lord will link you into a team with others who also have this on their heart in your location – wherever He takes you… 🙂

    Love you,


  37. Thank God for this man from Scandinavia who was prepared to ‘get out the boat’ and walk on water! Each and every one of us
    are called to go out and minister in the same, whether it is videoed or not! Jesus said “Greater things would we do after He went to be with His father”. Why have we not seen this? Why are not all of us down at our local shopping malls praying for people? Many of us do of course but not in the main. God said to the Apostles, and therefore also to us today “Wait upon the Holy Spirit for the power from on high (for the HS unction) and then go out”. The apostles did and signs/wonders followed.

    It is necessary for the natural thinking world to see the supernatural part of God operating through us, because we are all spirit filled and supernatural beings too, and God is also a spirit. Certainly going to a local village for instance and seeing the Elder of a village get healed dramatically by us, is going to get the attention of the whole village on God very quickly and allow the preaching of the word to follow without effort.

    So this is a challenge to all of us believers -wait upon Him, wait for the Holy Spirit unction and His power upon us from on high, and go out, wherever our going out is located geographically, and
    signs/wonders (using the gifts given us) will follow and subsequently souls saved for the Kingdom. Rather than analyse
    the pros and cons on this website -just get out there and listen to what the HS tells you whilst out and do it. There is no time like the present…………….

  38. Trenton D. Adams said: “Let’s see a man with no leg, and see that grow out.”

    A healing like that is documented to have taken place in the Azusa street revival in 1908

    Excerpt taken from “Azusa Street, They Told Me Their Stories
    The Youth and Children of Azusa Street Tell Their Stories” Retold by Brother Tommy

    “―I recall witnessing two of the greatest miracles where Seymour was greatly used by God. I was all ears! First, she told about the man with the wooden leg. Seymour had approached a man with a wooden leg and asked, ―What did you come here for?‘ The man replied, ―I want you to pray for my leg. It is starting to get gangrene where the wooden leg attaches. Seymour replied, ―I‘m just upset because you have the wooden leg on. It would be hard for God to grow a leg out when the wooden leg is attached. The man removed the wooden leg and stood before Seymour standing on his one good leg.

    Seymour laid hands on the man and proclaimed, ―Let Thy Name be Glorified. In the Name of Jesus, I command this leg to grow out. The gangrene is gone; you are healed.

    Seymour didn‘t preach that night. The miracle spoke for itself. Rejoicing was continuous as the crowd went wild. The man ran upon the platform and around the room. No one could get him to stop rejoicing and praising God.

    Next, Sister Lankford told of the man with no arm. Seymour spoke with a man who had lost his arm ten years earlier through a work-related accident. The arm had been totally severed at the shoulder. Brother Seymour asked the crowd, ―Would you like to see God have a wonderful time here tonight?

    Some of you may remember the man‘s leg that grew out about a year ago. Seymour then asked the one-armed man, ―Can you work with just the one arm? ―I‘m just given minimal paying jobs and I barely make enough money to even eat. Seymour shook his head and responded, ―That‘s not good. Are you married? ―Yes. ―Got kids?―Yes.―This man needs to be able to make a living. This man needs to work and he needs to be able to pay his tithe.

    Will you tithe if I pray for you and God gives you your arm back? Seymour said teasingly. ―Yes! Seymour burst out laughing. ―I‘m just having fun. He then slapped his hands on the shoulder itself and commanded the arm to grow out. Almost instantly it grew out. The healed man stood in total shock, then started moving his arm and feeling of it with his other hand, awed by the miracle.

    A few weeks later the man came back, bringing about 200 people with him, telling many at the meeting that he had gotten his old job back. Many of those he brought with him needed healing and left that evening fully restored as people in the crowd prayed and laid hands on each of them.”

  39. Mark Elam Jul 3rd 2013

    This thought is not original with me. I heard it from a preacher some years ago. He had been criticized about his methods of evangelism. His reply? ‘I think God likes what I’m doing more than what you are NOT doing.’

  40. Barry Schmidt Jul 3rd 2013

    Re: the short leg scam or no scam

    God always has and always will place things in the midst of His miracles that cause the insincere and the sceptic to be scandalized over and can be interpreted as either genuine or a scam. For example of these : Jesus healing on the Sabbath, touching lepors, letting hookers wash his feet with their hair and speaking with Samaritan women ( all of hear were scandalous in His culture and no one with any cultural sensitivity would even dream of doing such things in that culture)- YET GOD SEEMED TO LOVE TO PICK A FIGHT WITH AND SCANDALIZE THE INSINCERE AND THE SKEPTIC!

    Why did God allow Korban to include the scammers an fakes favorite trick as part of this video? Is God feeling ambivalent about those healings when He led Korban to record them?
    Jesus hasn’t changed! I think he purposely included those “leg lengthening” healings to scandalize and expose the hearts of the skeptics.

    Shame on you skeptics!
    You strain a gnat an swallow a camel!
    You missed the entire divine point and purpose of the video- to show that Jesus still uses ordinary , humble, weak nobodies to do his marvelous works. And God really isn’t interested whether you like what He is doing or not.

    Trouble with cynicism is that it always disqualifies from What God is doing.
    I too have been badly wounded and burned by previous fakes and deceptions- that’s no excuse for cynicism. Cynicism is the mask of “discernment” hiding a heart of bitterness and unbelief .

  41. Well said, Andrew!

  42. Andrew Jul 3rd 2013

    Wow, Barry!

    Interesting insights.

    Bless you!


  43. Barry Schmidt Jul 3rd 2013

    It’s high time we all get over the past fakes and Counterfiets we all have been burned by one way it another.

    “Once burned twice shy”is not a bilixal concept!!!
    We have all learned those past lessons of gullibility and stupidity in embracing that charismatic sorcery. i
    It high time we all return to the child like faith and trust we had before we got burned by all that sorcery.

    Lord heal out hearts of the cynicism. Remove the hardness and scar tissues of doubt, unbelief, ungodly fear and incredulity we recieved from those days of past deception. Grant that we can trust you again . Please give us all another chance and send us out in your name again!
    Start that IN ME MY GOD!!!!
    In Jesus name we pray !

  44. Kenny Atnip Jul 3rd 2013

    What I see here is a man willing to walk in obedience to what Jesus told us to do and yet some want to stone him to death.

    Matthew 7:
    15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

  45. Terri Jul 3rd 2013

    This reminds me of something I heard a Man of God preach about…. He told the story that immediately after he was born again, he read the scripture saying to lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. So, he went out looking for sick people to pray for. He prayed for every sick person in his extended family, sick people related to friends and acquaintances, etc. Finally, he came up with the idea of just going from room to room in the hospital to pray for people. He was a new believer who just found out about the Grace of God, the redemption of the cross, the Word of God. And so, he just did what the bible said for him to do. And he saw people being healed, getting up off of sick beds in the hospital, going home well, etc. Finally a few “good religious folk” got ahold of him, and told him he couldn’t do that. It didn’t work. They had prayed for sick people before but “sometimes God heals and sometimes He just takes them home to glory.” It stole this new zealous believer’s faith, and he stopped seeing such wondrous miracles.
    May we all have the zeal and faith of new believers who haven’t been tainted by the spirit of religion.

  46. I am so excited to watch this, to see how Torbin is excited ,not about himself but about what God is doing. He is excited to share with others what GOD is doing.
    Faith is rising in my heart that God can use any of his children to minister to the sick. Hallelujah.
    It is sadly often, as Terri has said, that it is other Christians who have been disappointed or are afraid what others may think that pour cold water on the faith of others.

  47. Go Torben …. spread the word! The Holy Spirit jumped for joy within me. Yes, Jesus is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow. I find it amazing when you ask to pray for someone, when the Holy Spirit is with you, I’ve NEVER had a knock back. Faith, maybe.

  48. margaret Jul 4th 2013

    Agreed Andrew….avoid those who 2Tim3v5,,,,have a form of godliness but deny the power….we need miracles and healings etc .and oh how we need discerning of spirits to get delivered from the power of darkness and lazy religious demons..

  49. Trenton D. Adams Jul 4th 2013

    Jesus hasn’t changed! I think he purposely included those “leg lengthening” healings to scandalize and expose the hearts of the skeptics.
    Barry, prior to the statement above, you mentioned how Jesus would do things in a certain way, which would bring out the skeptics. You’re right on that. But, do you recall a single event, where Jesus did something that the heathen did, or that the enemy did? Or, perhaps do we read in the OT and NT that we ARE NOT to mimic the heathen, or their ways? In fact, doesn’t it say that we most certainly shouldn’t do that, and then call it of God? And, do you understand why that might be a bad thing to do? Like maybe God wants a *clear* separation of His ways from the enemy’s ways? Like just maybe he wants His fire burning, and not that of others? God doesn’t like strange fire being mixed with His; it’s very distasteful.

    I’m glad you brought this up Barry, because the scriptures overwhelmingly tell us that God’s ways are set apart from those of the enemy.

    Could you ever imagine Jesus holding up a person’s legs, showing the legs to be different sizes? Or, would he just rebuke the illness, and be on to the next person?

  50. Trenton D. Adams Jul 4th 2013

    Yeah, I think the bottom line is that people really need to read their bible more, and pray as you do it. God uses His Word to instill the truth within our hearts. Though we may not be able to pull up scriptures on the fly, we’ll know something is wrong when we see it.

    I do find it interesting how everyone attacks those trying to bring people into the knowledge of the truth. I haven’t once *attacked* anyone, or been “negative”. I’ve only brought a dose of reality to the discussions, with some serious, and important, things to think about. You guys talk of not judging others, but then judge me as a “skeptic”. I find that rather humorous, considering I have seen the things of the Spirit, and believed in the moving of God’s Spirit, since I was 8-10 years old. There’s talk of not judging, unless you know the person, but then no one here knows me, yet judges me. I’m honestly smiling about this; not offended one bit, though I do feel sorry for ya’ll.

  51. Hi there,

    Good topic Andrew…

    Firstly I can vouch for Torbens integrity also, having lived in Denmark and hearing good reports from folks that know him that I respect there.

    Secondly I remember well how Derek Prince when he held healing and deliverance meetings would always begin by praying for one or two folk with legs of uneven length. He explained that the Lord always required him to begin his ministry this way…

    I have been privileged to partner with the Lord Jesus in such healings in public places with the late Neville Logan back in the 70’s.

    Sometimes the leg is genuinely shorter and physicaly lengthens, sometimes the back or pelvic area is being healed and the subsequent rotation causes the legs to even out.

    I remember an occasion at the Anglican Order of St. Luke in Christchurch when an unbelieving woman with a build up shoe (maybe 30cm or so) went forward for prayer and later limped back to her seat because the leg lengthened and the shoe was then too high for her to walk normally. A friend of mine then asked her if she wanted to become a Christian having seen the power of God at work… God is good to heal the unsaved to show who He is.

    I totally endorse ministry in the market place rather than in the church, He came to save the world, that is where He ministered, that is where we as His servants should be also.


    Carl Emerson.

  52. Marie Jul 4th 2013

    Thank the Lord Jesus! I am so thankful that there are faithful saints who yield to the simplicity of the gospel and have the nerve to go out and reach people in streets. May the Lord bless Pastor Torden and his friends in the Lord.

    I am so full of matter about how the church today is so cynical.

    I know that I was once lost, repented, baptized and filled with His Spirit and, like Torden and his friend on the video said, we not only hear the Word, but we see the evidence of the Word. When we see the goodness of the Lord in our lives, when he heals us and fills us with his presence, it not only convinces and blesses us, but convinces unbelievers.

    It’s sad that christians would mock other christians and claim they cannot discern the false from the truth when it comes to their personal walk with the Lord. There’s a schism in the church; those who believe Acts was for that time only, and those who believe that the empowerment that happened in Acts is for the church’s lifetime until He returns. Other christians have told me I can’t discern what is true and what is wrong, and that what I received that wonderful day of salvation is not of God.

    Yet, what I did, I did in the Holy NAME of JESUS, under the authority of the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the remitter of my sins, and the only NAME wherein we can be saved. If I and others who believed and prayed and were filled, which christian would rebuke this? If it happened on the Day of Pentecost, who said that it would never happen again? Peter spoke in Acts 2:38 – “Then Peter said to them: “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit . For the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call”.

    For those who accuse us of being guilty for following and receiving the Holy Scripture’s promise in Acts, then we guilty as charged.

  53. Lightning Storm Jul 4th 2013

    Whoohoo Preach it brother Barry!

    Many people, including me, have been warning people on this blog “NOT to throw the baby out with the bath water”.

    You said it very well, Barry.

    Sometimes God TESTS people’s faith in HIM, the LIVING Word of God.

  54. Lightning Storm Jul 4th 2013

    Trenton D. Adams

    I think you had better check those scriptures again.

    It is THE ENEMY that COUNTERFEITS the things of God!

    The ENEMY comes as an angel of Light…..and copies the same MIRACLES that Jesus did.

    Read what Jesus Christ had to say (RIGHT FROM HIS OWN LIPS) about it here:

    Mar 9:38 KJV – And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils IN THY NAME, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.


    Mar 9:40 KJV – For he that is not against us is on our part.

    Luk 9:49 KJV – And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils IN THY NAME; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

    Luk 9:50 KJV – And Jesus said unto him, FORBID HIM NOT: for he that is not against us IS FOR US.

  55. Marie Jul 4th 2013

    Squashers of joy, and those who make light when someone says they’ve been healed by God’s power, would rather remind the church about the warning that many will heal in His Name and do works in His Name and expect entrance into heaven, and Jesus will say, “Depart, I never knew you”. Perfect love casts out fear. If those like Torden are burdened to go and minister to the streets to glorify the risen Lord, who would prevent it? If legs are lengthened, I say, Halleluia and thank you Jesus. If a person is suffering, I would rejoice that their suffering is over. If I refused to rejoice, I would have no ask myself some serious questions about who I serve.

    These are those who are like back-seat drivers; they love to stereotype and put all ‘healing gifters’ into the same box. They complain about the driver, while they sit and do nothing. If there is one charlatan, then they rebuke all who perform wonders and healings in the Name of Jesus. They do nothing themselves. They would not exercise faith and do works of the Spirit to glorify God, but rather prevent unbelievers from entering in.

    Ezekiel 34: 20 “Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. Because you have pushed with side and shoulder , butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep”.

    I believe many who use the ‘discernment’ rationale, are being dishonest with themselves. I believe they would prefer to keep the status quo going, so that they do not feel compelled to go out in the highways and biways themselves.

  56. chas351 Jul 4th 2013

    Celeb Status?

    Acts 14:10-15
    Paul said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk. When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.”And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

    John 6:15
    Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

    The Key is always Humility and most importantly Giving God all the Glory.

  57. Lightning Storm Jul 4th 2013

    Wow….Amen Marie! Well said…you have hit a few nails on the head in your last post.

  58. Trenton D. Adams Jul 4th 2013

    Marie, i agree, there are people like what you describe. And there also those who embrace every wind of doctrine, and all signs and wonders, regardless of their source.

  59. GaryB Jul 4th 2013

    Trenton D. Adams wrote:
    Could you ever imagine Jesus holding up a person’s legs, showing the legs to be different sizes? Or, would he just rebuke the illness, and be on to the next person?

    I do remember Him saying something about the Pharisees who was calling Him evil for healing and casting out devils.

    If you do not understand something it is better to be quiet because it is possible your fighting against God.

    Acts 5:38-39
    38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

    Here’s what the Pharisees and Scribes thought of Jesus ministry:

    Matthew 12:24
    But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

    Trenton its better to show a little wisdom and not say anything but spend some time in prayer and seek the mind of the Lord, then to say something you will regret later when God reveals all things.


  60. Barry Schmidt Jul 4th 2013

    Trenton- thanks for your question regarding whether Jesus ever copied one the the worlds methods or tricks – they are good questions.

    My answer is simple – Jesus never copied ANYONE. The bogus so called “leg lengthening” trick pulled off by the magicians is THE COPYCAT -never the other way around. God in Christ is always the Origninal Prototype in healing. The fakes and charlatans “lengthen legs” to try to copy the original healings of God. Leg lengthening WAS AND IS GODS IDEA NOT THE WORLDS IDEA!
    If God lengthens a man’s legs it is because He WANTS TO DO IT and because He loves the sons of men- that they would walk free of pain.

    Remember Moses staff and miracles brother?
    Who originated each miracle an who copied?
    Was it not God who originated each miracle and the devil”s servants Jannes and Jambres who were the copycats ?

    You are mistaken in assuming when Jesus lengthens a man’s leg that He copying the world my friend.

  61. JeffM Jul 4th 2013

    I believe the purpose of Torben’s video is to show how to make disciples, take them out on the street to pray and witness. Anyone who does not agree with this is just trying to drag you backwards. If someone can’t just agree that that is what we do as we follow Jesus then they must be going their own way. This is a VERY important part of following Jesus , He tells everyone to do this .

  62. Barry Schmidt Jul 4th 2013

    How to discern miracles:

    Always listen to the teaching and doctrine of the one doing the miracles first and second if you are able check out the fruit (lifestyle) of the one doing miracles. These two are Gods fool proof acid tests .

    If a man comes performing miracles in Jesus name but preaches idols- money, ambition, love of the world and anything in the world – money, sensuality, power or selfish ambition- THAT MAN IS A WOLF!

    If he performs miracles and preaches a false gospel of self effort religion, harsh treatment of the body , self imposed religiosity and legalism INSTEAD OF THE FAITH IN THE CROSS PLUS NOTHING THAT MAN IS A WOLF!

    If a man comes performing miracles and his LIFESTYLE is one of self seeking, self indulgence, immorality, greed, materialism, selfish ambition– THAT MAN IS A WOLF!

    If on the other hand a man (like Torbin) comes doing miracles in Jesus name preached the message of the cross of Christ , calls for repentance and faith alone in Christ Jesus and whose godly lifestyle can be verified by those in the community who have know him personally THAT MAN IS SENT BY GOD!
    Fear THAT MAN!

  63. watchful Jul 4th 2013

    Chas351 – God has not changed, He still does miracles as signs following the gospel, and praise Him for it! But that needs to be tempered the way Jesus tempered it, otherwise there is the danger of being made into a king, and then all simplicity is lost.

  64. Thank you for letting the power of God be shown . it was very common in the early church and i just studed Jude , one chapter . he was encouraging the early church to return to the FIRE OF GOD thay had when the church was BORN IN ACTS 2 after the preaching of Gods word lifting up Jesus and the Father sent the Gift as promised. I found Jesus as MY SAVIOR in DEC. 1959 and remember then how God moved and we seen miracles that the young today question . Even the promise od Jesus coming is questioned . How sad it will be ONE DAY AFTER HIS COMING but for many it will be TOO LATE.

  65. TheDude Jul 4th 2013

    What I find very disappointing is that when some of us want to engage in an honest discussion about this story, we are met with name calling and ridicule. (e.g. cynics, skeptics, squashers of joy, etc.). Do you believe that this glorifies God when you treat your brothers and sisters in such a way? In the political world (which I don’t participate in) this is what the liberal left does to conservatives by calling them names (e.g. intolerant, hate mongers, bigots, homophobes, etc.) rather than having an honest and respectful discussion on the issues.

    I prevail upon all here not to fall into the ways of the world and engage in these ad hominem attacks. Even in our disagreements we need to be glorifying God in all that we do.

    Let’s be respectful to one another as co-inheritors of the Kingdom and not act in our flesh. Romans 8:8 teaches us that those in the flesh cannot please God. I would ask any of you to go back and read your posts and if you feel convicted that you were acting in your flesh, to repent and seek God’s forgiveness for doing so. Ultimately, God has to show this to you, not me.

    My only goal here is to honor and glorify our Lord Jesus, not to attack anyone. If my words didn’t reflect an honest spirit of wanting to do that, then I have failed and would ask your forgiveness.

  66. watchful Jul 4th 2013

    Yesterday I posted some advice to these dear brothers to run away from the spotlight, from cameras, and from those who would try to make them kings, but it looks like I may have forgotten to hit the send button……that was the wisdom the Lord gave to me in a flash yesterday and sought to share it. It is not a matter of pooh-poohing miracles, not at all for I have seen the Spirit of God at work, as have so many many believers, but it would never have even dawned on me to get a video camera and if that thought ever came to me I would have to say “get thee behind me Satan for thou hast not in mind the things of God but the things of man”. The things of God are too precious to be treated as common.

    Jesus tempered the enthusiasm of the disciples by saying not to rejoice in the demons submitting to us but to only rejoice that our names be written in the Lamb’s book of life. See what Chas351 wrote about how Jesus responded to those who wanted to make him into “something”, He wisely fled temptation. It is good to testify, in simplicity, and as the Lord leads when it is seemly and glorifying to Him, but it is not for us to try and make it into “something”. If we do that then we would start to veer off the road towards the ditch. This is the understanding that GOD gave me, it is not of myself because I didn’t have a clue.

  67. Roger (NZ) Jul 4th 2013

    In the early ’80’s, I suffered from a ruptured/prolapsed/slipped disc in my lower back. An x-ray showed severe damage, and I was off work for 3 weeks on my back, then a return to work still suffering from pain in lower back and leg (sciatica). Many months later, I was made aware that an O/S visitor with healing ministry was in the area – I prayed about this and was convicted that God would heal me that evening.

    The ‘healer’ used the leg pulling method – I felt fire through my legs and into my lower back. I believed that I had been healed by God.

    I continued to suffer pain for almost another year, before going to a chiropractor, where I was first x-rayed, then we discussed my history. He told me that all discs were as good as new, with absolutely no sign of any damage. He suggested some excercises for a posture problem. I’ve had no pain since that time.

    Now was I healed, by the Healer, Lord Jesus – (to whom I give all credit, thanks and the glory) – because of the ‘leg pulling’ method, or despite it..?

    The danger I see in these two threads is that we may focus on a man used by the Healer, rather than the Healer Himself, who is Lord Jesus, and I note that “Watchful” has also raised this same concern.

    May we look beyond the ‘instrument and method’ that Almighty God will choose to use at His discretion – and give Him the glory and recognition for His involvement in our individual lives..?

  68. Goodbye Christianity. You are so hungry for the real thing that any little trick will do. Listen, I can only tell you about someone that really has raised the dead and dying by the power of Yeshua. Yeshua needs no tricksters who appear to stretch out a leg to be a half inch longer.

    It’s easier to do real miracles, but The harder ministry is the message of REPENTANCE and Remission of sins.

    Yeshua is not returning for Christians… He is only returning for His sheep who hear His voice and follow Him.

    2000 years agp the worldly people called Yeshua’s followers “Christians”. But Yeshua calls His followers sheep. Where do you get your identity?

    Okay, you may lamb baste me again good Christians.

  69. Andrew Jul 4th 2013

    Jonathan – Yet another person who watched the first 30 seconds of the video and ignored the rest.

    Yet is happy to come on here calling Torben a “trickster”.

    That is the way the Pharisees operated with Jesus.

    Spend longer, check things out better – before calling people names.

    Thanks so much.

    Andrew Strom

  70. Barry Schmidt Jul 4th 2013

    Johnathan Isreal- I am not ashamed to take the Lords name “Christian” you can say it was a handle the worldly people mockingly gave to the early followers of Jesus Christ if you want ( I doubt you are right about that enormous leap of assumption as the text does not say what you so dogmatically assume. How do you know it was not the Lords followers who called each other Christian since the text doesn’t say???)
    Nonethe less Chritian literally transliterated is “Christ one” or “one of Christ”
    You can be ashamed of that name if you want but I will gladly bear the reproach of that wonderful name any day!

  71. Jonathan you said
    Yeshua is not returning for Christians… He is only returning for His sheep who hear His voice and follow Him.

    2000 years agp the worldly people called Yeshua’s followers “Christians”. But Yeshua calls His followers sheep. Where do you get your identity?

    Jonathan, as a born again believer/a Christian, I eagerly await the soon return of the Lord Jesus Christ WHO IS returning for me/us/ Christians, to take us to the mansions that He has prepared for us (John 14:2)

    Paul said
    2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, “but unto all them also that love his appearing”

    “but unto all them also that love his appearing”

    Jonathan, you ask “Where do you get your identity?” Jonathan, as a born again believer in our risen Savour the Lord Jesus Christ I am identified with Christ and in Union with Him and I/we Christians are currently seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph)

    Jonathan, I may be wrong but I suspect you are coming “partly” from the hebrew roots type of people who, for the most part, want us to go back to the Law, keeping feast days etc.

    Paul had an awful time with those type of people as we can see in Gal and Rom and also the author of Hebrews.



  72. Jesus is coming soooooon, His return is imminent.



  73. Averyl Jul 4th 2013

    Some great posts!

    Thank you so much Andrew for sharing these videos with us.

    May our Lord give us boldness to step out of our comfort zones in obedience to His Word!

  74. Amen Barry, I concur.



  75. Correction
    and also “WITH” the author of Hebrews.

  76. jda016 Jul 4th 2013

    Off topic a little:

    I have a friend who is going to Redding California to Bethel church under Bill Johnson to experience “signs, wonders, and healing.” I know many false things are going on there.

    Does anyone have any information regarding the heresies of this area so that I may warn my friend?

    Thank you!

  77. GaryB quoted the right scripture in Acts 5:38-39

    “And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

    If this work of Torben is not of God then it will come to nothing, but if it is of God then God Himself will confirm His word and His minister.

    Mark 16:19-20

    “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.”

  78. Roger (NZ) Jul 5th 2013

    jda016 – Jonathon, at one time B.Johnson of Bethel, denied the deity of Christ Jesus our Lord – thereby teaching a false ‘christ’, a different Jesus. 🙁

    A google search will bring up links on this subject.. here is one link:

  79. Hi Roger,

    The Lord Jesus Christ… He is “true God” and “true man.”

    Love you,


  80. TheDude Jul 5th 2013

    God’s word teaches in 1 John 3 & 4 that the Holy Spirit resides in us. It also tells us to test the spirits that claim to act in the Lord’s name. Its not just a matter of someone professing correct doctrine with their lips, but an indwelling of the Holy Spirit such that, when it acts through us, people are brought to repentance, recognizing Jesus as Lord.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with testing “the spirit”, e.g. acting through Torben, to see if it is from God. Those that would criticize any such testing should take a step back and realize there is nothing unbiblical about testing such spirits as long as it is done with the right intent. In fact, they should welcome any such testing. Why fear testing if what you say is true. Do you think that mere men can in any way challenge God Himself and disprove what God is doing? Absolutely not!

    Since all we have available to us is what is on the video, let’s use that and test the spirit we see in the video.

    Torben does talk to people about Jesus and would appear to be genuine in his belief. He believes that the Holy Spirit, acting through him, can heal people. As an aside, God doesn’t need to use any of us to heal anyone. There is no such office of “healer” mentioned in the NT. That’s not to say that God won’t act through people. Note the reference in the NT to the elders laying on of hands on the sick. In this case, I don’t know if Toben is an elder or not as that fact is not made clear.

    Based on just the video alone, we cannot verify whether these healings are genuine or not. I’m not saying they are or aren’t, I’m just saying the video evidence isn’t enough since all the “healings” are subjective in that there is no obvious malady present, only a reported internal problem by the person supposedly healed. This is very subjective and there is absolutely no way for anyone watching the video to say with certainty if these healings are genuine or not, based on just watching the video.

    We have to toss out the whole leg lengthening healing as I don’t think God would use such a questionable “healing” in order to show His might to the world. Look at all the healings in the NT. They were all very obvious. People being raised from the dead, people who were truly lame from birth given the power to walk, people who were 100% blind being able to see, etc. etc. No one ever questioned the authenticity of these healings. I have never see one video (much less the one with Torben) providing evidence of objective healings. If there is one, then I would ask the readers of this site to please post it for our enlightenment.

    I believe that our God is a might God who is 100% sovereign over everything, including life and death. In order to test the spirits, I am compelled to ask why in the “hearings” in this video, doesn’t God use ones like He did in the NTthat are without question? For instance, if God can stretch a leg out 1/2″ or so, why not find an amputee and in the name of Jesus command the limb to grow back? Show me an authentic video of that happening with the person healed repenting and declaring Jesus as Lord; then I’ll agree that the Spirit has met the test and passed.

    Finally, and most importantly, I never saw anyone who was “healed”, truly repent and declare Jesus as Lord. After all, isn’t this the most important test of the spirit? If it is truly the work of the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn’t those healed recognize this and repent and declare Jesus as Lord?

    Too many people are busy looking for signs and wonders and taking their eyes of off Jesus. This is what has happened throughout history and is nothing new. If we don’t learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

    I conclude by re-stating that it is 100% biblical to test the spirits and those who want to engage in name calling are not willing to honestly test what they are seeing.

  81. Roger (NZ) Jul 5th 2013

    Andrew JH – thankyou for that good news update 🙂

  82. No worries man, Love you, Andrew… 🙂

  83. jda016 Jul 5th 2013

    Thank you Roger! Johnson does say something quite alarming in his book, “When Heaven Invades Earth.” He says, “He (Jesus) performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God….not as God” (page 29).

    Thank you to Andrew Strom also, I found your article regarding Bill Johnson that I can send to my friend.

  84. Teshuva Jul 5th 2013

    Seems that every time the Lord does something through someone, that is when the enemy wants to come in and steal kill and destroy, that which He has done. When man comes in and says look what we have done and is proud of that which has been done, then pride has entered in. Yet these men have said that God did these things and gave glory to Him. Here is your test- Bitter and sweet water do not flow forth from the same fountain. If God is doing it, then it is sweet if man is doing it then there is bitterness. Anytime in scripture that God done something then immediately the enemy came to destroy it.

  85. Trenton D. Adams Jul 5th 2013

    watchful, your message about running from the spot light is a good one. However, I don’t perceive any self motivation from Torben. I perceive a very tiny bit of pride, but only the amount I would expect from any believer. I really don’t think he’s a charlatan, I just think we SERIOUSLY need to consider not doing things that look like trickery.

  86. Hi Jonathan,

    I have heard the context of that statement explained by Bill Johnson in one of his sermons…

    He clearly stated in that sermon that Jesus is God and then he said that Jesus didn’t perform His miracles as God but as Man…

    He explained that he was making the point – and he was very clear on this in his sermon – that we – as born again believers can do – empowered by the Holy Spirit – the same miracles which Jesus completed while He was on earth – as Jesus wasn’t using His Divinity to perform those miracles – but was performed them as a surrendered Man to the will of God, i.e. that scripture which states that the Power of God was present for Jesus to heal – that was how far Jesus humbled Himself – He was totally God while on earth but humbled Himself to only act under the Power of the Holy Spirit – giving us an example that we should follow in His steps…

    He (Bill Johnston) explained that very clearly in his sermon…

    I “checked him out” earlier on in the year for myself… 🙂

    Love you,


  87. Correction: He (Bill Johnson)… 🙂

  88. Another correction: but was performing… 🙂

  89. jda016 Jul 5th 2013

    Thank you for the clarification Andrew! But I still have many concerns, some of which were raised from Andrew Strom’s own article.

    As I came out from under Rick Joyner’s Morning Star Ministries – school for the prophetic, I see very many similarities from the teachings in that school to the teachings in Johnson’s school.

  90. Hi Jonathan,

    I am limiting my comments to the specific issue – raised above – of whether Bill Johnson believes in the Divinity of Christ – which he does – which makes him our brother in the Lord… 🙂

    I am not “going there” with respect to your previous question about your friend… 🙂

    Love you,


  91. watchful Jul 5th 2013

    No indeed Trenton, I don’t think he’s a charlatan either, the thought never even entered my mind. The apostles weren’t charlatans when Jesus cautioned them to rejoice only that their names were in the book of life, and Jesus was surely not a charlatan when they tried to put him on a pedestal and make him a king. What I am understanding is that the right hand needs to forget what the left hand is doing, otherwise it’s a slippery slide away from simplicity down into spiritual harlotry, and turning the simple, holy things and gifts of God into a circus.

  92. jda016 Jul 5th 2013

    Well, after reading about their prophetic training ministry (which is almost identical to Rick Joyner’s) and reading the SOZO handbook (which is new age mixed with Christianity for Johnson’s healing rooms) and many testimonies, I have more than enough to warn my friend.

    If Bill truly is of God, he has a lot of very strange and new age things he is allowing to take place in his church. I am very wary of Him, indeed.

    Praise God for men like Torben who have not been “raised up” in these schools for the prophetic. Torben is the real deal because he seeks Christ and Christ alone. In too many of these “healing/prophetic schools” I am seeing far to much mixture. It is always Christ plus something else (usually new age).

  93. Trenton D. Adams Jul 5th 2013

    watchful, good way of saying it.

    I agree jda, we ought to be leary of people like Bill Johnson. Just because someone says “Lord, Lord”, does not mean he is a child of God. Jesus said many will come “in His name, saying that He is Christ”. Most interpret that to be saying that they will say that they themselves are Christ, but I do not believe that is what it is saying. Ample scriptures indicate that they will appear as ministers of the gospel, not ministers of the enemy. It would be far too obvious if someone were to claim to be Jesus, to dismiss them. No believer who reads their bible would believe that person. But, if they claim to be a Christians, and a leader, then people will follow them. They believe in the Divinity, they must be our brother/sister, right?

  94. Hi Trenton,

    Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

    Bill Johnson believes this… 🙂

    Love you,


  95. Correction: Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5 NASB)

  96. I just watched the original video after reading and watching the second video.

    My initial reaction of the first video is that it is a hoax. The whole leg lengthening thing at the start would have caused me to delete it and chalk it up to a fraud… In all honesty, my reaction from the first video is ‘I don’t believe it’. 17 minutes of a guy basically saying ‘be healed in Jesus’ name’ and they are better. It look WAY too much like the Todd Bentley’s and the other hucksters of the world. This video does a VERY poor job showing that these people are doing. Frankly, if I would have seen this first, I would seriously reconsider my opinion of Andrew Strom.

    However, I watched the second video first. Our church is starting to get into witnessing on the street and giving out gospel tracts and such. After watching the second video, I can see the value of praying with people after talking to them about Jesus. I think it is entirely possible that Holy Spirit may answer the prayers and heal the person involved as a means of authenticating the message of the Gospel. Indeed, this is something we need to seriously consider and pray about doing.

    My suggestion would be to lose the first video. There are believers like me who are VERY cynical about some guy on the internet who claims to be able to heal people like this gentleman is doing. Especially when it starts out with ‘leg lengthening’ which seems to have been one of the frauds / hucksters favorite tricks. Very bad thing to lead off with.

    What I took away from this whole deal was the value of praying with people on the street about their problems after witnessing to them.
    What I will do differently than what I saw in the first video is to not make a big deal about what happened if God heals them. I think a quiet and humble response like this would be most appropriate: Sir (or Ma’am), what happened has nothing to do with me. Rather, it is the Holy Spirit authenticating the message I gave to you about Jesus Christ. Jesus is real and He wants to be your Lord and Savior. Are you willing to turn from your sins and put your faith / hope / trust in Jesus Christ?

    Final thought to underline what I wrote earlier. The first video is very bad. What the gentleman from Denmark is doing can to very easily be confused with the frauds and charlatans who claim to have healing ministries

  97. Trenton D. Adams Jul 5th 2013

    A friend of mine wanted to know about Bill Johnson, because he has a friend who is caught up in the Bill Johnson ministry stuff. So, this is what I told him.

    Bill Johnson, and all these false prophets, teachers, evangelists,
    etc, support Bob Jones. Bob Jones would have women undress in front of him, in order to receive prophetic words from him. He said that they needed to be “naked” before the Lord, or the Lord would not give him prophetic words for them. This went on for quite some time, before he was exposed. And, they continued supporting him. Bob Jones is the guy who told Todd Bentley about Emma the angel.

    Unfortunately, my blog has been down for a bit, and I haven’t had a chance to get it back up. I would have liked to post what God showed me about Emma the angel being a demon. Bob Jones, Bill Johnson, and all these false prophets, teachers, evangelists, etc, are all in cahoots with each other. They are all in a web of deception.

  98. TheDude Jul 5th 2013

    Jim makes a very good point. If I were to just watch the first video, I would definitely right Torben off as one more phony. The only reason I haven’t is that Andrew vouches for him and I know Andrew’s heart. Although not perfect, Andrew is not afraid to call out those who are preaching a false gospel, and that is something I respect him for and have supported him for.

    Unfortunately, all we have to “test” the spirits with is the video. I believe that Andrew’s used an unfortunate choice of words in the second post calling those who sincerely wish to fulfill the biblical duty to test the spirits as a “Sad Reaction”. There may have been those that didn’t respond in love and in a true biblical manner to honestly test the spirits, but to generalize anyone who didn’t believe the video as true biblical healing as a “cynic” was wrong to do. Upon reflection, I’m sure Andrew regrets lumping everyone together.

  99. Andrew Jul 5th 2013

    No – I don’t regret calling it a “sad reaction”.

    And yes – the first video was full of evidence that we are dealing with a genuine and anointed man of God.

    Multitudes of people have written to me expressing this.

    Cynicism is cynicism – and it is unacceptable.

    But I guess repentance is too much to hope for.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  100. David Marsh Jul 5th 2013

    Thedude said,
    ” Unfortunately, all we have to “test” the spirits with is the video. ”

    Thedude, did you not ask God to confirm the validity of the video when testing it ? That HE speaks the truth in our hearts/spirit by the Spirit of truth?

    God bless you
    David Marsh.

  101. Andrew Jul 5th 2013

    Not only that – but it has Torben’s website all over it – which is loaded with written and video material to check out.

    There is no excuse for making such premature judgments and posting them in post after post in public.


    Andrew Strom.

  102. Stephen St. Louis Jul 5th 2013

    Like Barry said, examine the fruit to see whether it is good or bad. A bad tree CAN NOT bear good fruit nor can a good tree bear bad fruit. By its fruit you will know whether the tree is good or bad. So far, all I see out of this man is good fruit. As to his methods of making YouTube videos and posting them, why shouldn’t he. We live in a day and age of global information. Teaching of every sort exists and is readily available online. Why shouldn’t the Truth be out there as well? As Jeff Moore so elegantly wrote, “Why should the Devil have all the good music?” Besides which, you don’t hear this kind of thing preached. Its not encouraged by most North American Churches in fact they often teach the opposite so how else is he supposed to show people that, yes, it can and does work like this.

    The leg lengthening thing I’ve seen happen in real life and, no, it wasn’t a trick because I knew everyone involved and they were almost as shocked as I was. Its far more common then people realize. It might seem like a small thing but faith is built in little steps. God will move you along as fast as your faith will allow.

    It would have been more convincing to have seen the lady healed from stroke damage before and after but you can’t have camera men running around everywhere all the time. Besides which, if the Pharisee’s can witness healing and deliverance and accuse Jesus of having a demon, you just won’t convince everyone even if they are standing right next to it when a miracle happens. I heard of a series of miraculous healings on someone involved in a bad car accident and God seemed to be one step ahead of the doctors. Every time they went in to repair damage it was already healed. The doctor in charge was an atheist and so outraged by it all that he destroyed the medical files and even the record of the man being admitted. Family that arrived later on had a hard time locating him because the hospital administration had no record of him being there. There is just no convincing some people. Revelation shows that, in the end, people will curse God because of the plagues yet still refuse to repent.

    Last point, going back to the Pharisees, it seems to me that Jesus said that sins against the Son of Man would be forgiven but that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be. Now that says to me that maybe those people throwing “charlatan” accusations had best be careful how they choose to voice their skepticism because if this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and I believe it is, then you are in a lot of trouble. Just saying /shrug.

  103. watchful Jul 5th 2013

    These are genuine brothers in Christ, myself I have no doubt of that, I love them just from the videos, and I believe they have genuine spiritual gifts. But as Teshuva said the enemy will come to try and destroy the works of God, it is not a matter of “if”, it is only a matter of “when”, so it is a kindness when the enemy is seen coming in the distance that someone warns of it. It is not a judgment nor an accusation, we have seen so little of the body of Christ functioning in the many various giftings that we don’t know the difference any more.

    All the false ministers being mentioned started out in simplicity with the spiritual gifts that they had been given. But it seems they had not spiritual fathers to teach them to temper themselves, and no watchmen to watch their backs, just accolades after accolades and pats on the back and a pedestal to stand upon, and so now we see the sad results. What flesh can resist that over time! That’s why the only way is to flee temptation, flee the limelight. ALL flesh is susceptible, ALL flesh. It’s not a matter of some are “more humble” or “nicer” or more genuine etc, because ALL our flesh has the same susceptibilities and needs to forget what the left hand is doing. The gifts and callings are without repentance, so even after departing from simplicity people still function in those gifts and callings, except that now because of flesh, mixture and deception begins to be subtly added in and the descent begins.

    God’s idea of glory is not the same as man’s idea of glory. He has no need to imitate the world nor should we, because that would be having in mind the things of man, not the things of God. What I understand is that the Lord desires to manifest His manifold wisdom to the powers and principalities, not to man so much. He doesn’t pander to the fallen flesh of man that craves excitement and goosepimples….He does works according to His own will and purposes, to show His love and kindness and authority, to open receptive hearts, etc, but not by way of cow-towing or showing off. Jesus so many times told those He had healed to tell no-one.

    So I hope we will pray for these brothers that they will be able to stand and remain in simplicity when the enemy comes, that the fear of the Lord would be the beginning of wisdom in every area and situation. Remembering that the enemy is subtle, counterfeiting the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. But all praise and glory be to Christ Jesus our Lord who has conquered the lion who prowls around seeking who he may devour! Christ is the strong tower who when we run into we are kept safe!

  104. Barry Schmidt Jul 5th 2013

    For me the thing that sets Torbin apart from the previous spiritual streams of the supernatural ( of which Bill Johnson is possibly the biggest a distributor of – and that statement isn’t evaluating Johnson’s authenticity as a child of God- but just an objective fact) – Nonetheless- the differene e between Torbin and this previous stream IS THAT TORBIN MOVES IN APIRITUAL POWER AND GIFTS WITHOUT DESCENDING INTO WIERDSVILLE!!!!

    Jesus is 100% God but He also was and is and always will be a very easy and normal MAN and to live with. He is NOT MR. Wierdsville! To accredit the winsome and wonderful man Christ Jesus with convulsions, animal noises, crears, hundreds of people acting completely out of control, jerking , wild shaking, out of control mocking laughter- to attribute these to Jesus is blasphemy and just plain stupid!

    This is nothing but human sorcery at its worst . Why can’t people see this? Because they have slowly over time been taught and have become habituated to WIERDSVILLE !!!!

    How can anyone with a sound mind say that In Jesus and the apostles day their miracles were accompanied by this nascent WIERDSVILLE?

    Never! Finally we are in Torbin people who move in power in Jesus name who are “fully clothed and in their right minds”!’

  105. Barry Schmidt Jul 5th 2013

    The descent into normalizing WIERDSVILLE:

    Step 1. Attributing some of the esoteric and bizzare paychotic behavior manifestations of the historic revivals ( which was highly suspect in the eyes of most revival leaders of previous generations) AS NORMAL.

    Step 2. Seeking these bizzare and esoteric psychotic manifestations AS SPIRITUAL AND SIGNS OF THE HOLY SPIRITS PRESENCE AND APPROVAL.

    Step 3. Subtley shifting the focus away from the divine purpose of revival from repentance and faith in Jesus alone towards centralizing and making WIRRDSVILLE the main objective of revival.

    step 4. Bringing the traveling road show called “WIERDSVILLE” into the mainstream of modern church life.

    Step 5. Sidelining the teaching of sound doctrine, the preaching of the message of faith in Jesus and sacrificial living and replacing these in mainstream Christianity with the seeking of spiritual experiences , sensuality, self indulgence and the worship and focus on angels and extra biblical revelatory encounters.

    step 6- the complete “new aging” of the church and a new spirituality – the new gospel of self effort , self fulfillment and self empowerment .
    A new Jesus – one who never calls for self denial, who is more hyper spiritual than he is authentically human. A new Spirit-one that is more interested in making men thrilled and exhilaerated than in making men holy and heavenly minded and a new hope – a hope in this world and in this age- where believers will rule and reign in this present dark age rather than the “blessed hope” the glorious appearing of The Lord Jesus Christ from heaven and the hope in the life to come which declares , ” if for this life only we have hope we of all men are to be most pitied .”

    Friends this is the descent into WIERDSVILLE!!!

  106. watchful Jul 5th 2013

    “This is nothing but human sorcery at its worst . Why can’t people see this? Because they have slowly over time been taught and have become habituated to WIERDSVILLE ”

    I think you are right Barry. In helping to delineate the true from the false, one thing the Lord made me aware of recently is that the false relies on witchcraft (though they don’t know it) whereas the true relies on the Holy Spirit. Another thing that delineates the two from one another is the issue of simplicity, this is very important, and I have been asking the Lord to define simplicity as HE means it, because I don’t know how to capture it in words, but I think it does at least partly have to do with the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, as well as being CAREFUL not to make an idol of the things of God, the miracles, etc. This was a huge pitfall I saw with the Toronto Blessing when I was there.

  107. Teshuva Jul 5th 2013

    I do not see anything wrong with what they are doing. It would seem to me that they possess the redemption of God and now God can display His righteousness through them. The “KIND”ness of God with that authenticity of seed in the fruit and not fruit alone.
    AUTHenticity= AUTHor, AUTHority — It is all about Him and not of us at all. he works through us and not we ourselves. For we can do nothing of ourselves, only God.
    Yeshua said, of myself I can do nothing but only what I see and hear of the Father.

  108. Barry Schmidt Jul 5th 2013

    Somebody asked about Bill Johnson – He is the current Mayor of WIERDSVILLE – or at least Deputy Mayor!

  109. TheDude Jul 5th 2013

    Andrew, I am very disappointed that I come here with what I think is grace and humility attempting to speak from God’s word, and yet the response is more name calling and calling me to repentance. The tone of these responses is very disturbing. As proof of the spiritual authenticity of Torben’s healings, you rely upon “multitudes of people” supporting your position. Are “multitudes of people” following anything proof of it spiritual authenticity? Of course not. Andrew, you of all people understand this in your battle against all the multitudes of people who follow people like Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Joel Osteen, and the list goes on and on.

    Don’t put yourself in the same category of those who want to justify the legitimacy of something by the numbers of people who follow it. That is never proof of anything in God’s eyes.

    Can we not stick to God’s word as the ultimate authority? All I am doing is fulfilling a biblical duty to test the spirits by asking legitimate questions; yet no one seems to want to acknowledge that and recognize it is our duty to test the spirits.

    Let us not forget Mathew 7:22-23, which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring. Just because someone says they are doing something in the name of Jesus does not make it so. I would point also to Mathew 24:24 where Jesus says that even the elect will be deceived by false prophets performing signs and wonders.

    Its obvious from these verses that those performing these counterfeit miracles do so under the honest belief that they are doing them in the name of Jesus, but God is clear that they are not. The nature of deception is that those being deceived aren’t aware they are being deceived. They actually believe what they are doing is through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    As I’ve stated before, true miracles and miraculous healings are not subject to debate as they are objective and cannot be challenged. I stand by my statements that all the supposed healings in these videos cannot be objectively proven by the video evidence alone.

    Rather than deal with this in a respectable and honest manner, all that happens is people resort to name calling, ridicule, and saying that just because multitudes of people believe it, therefore it must be true. Those who want to be deceived will be deceived. 2 Thess. 2:11. Just as God turns unrepentant sinners over to their sins, He will send strong delusion to those who want to be deceived.

    As for me, I will stand on God’s word and challenge anyone who would do otherwise to bring forth objective evidence that these healings are from God. Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. As the Bible says, we are to not only test the spirits, but we are to examine ourselves (2 Cor. 13:5). Tell me from God’s word why it is wrong to test the spirits? No one has answered that question.

    My only goal is that all would come to a point of repentance and that our Lord Jesus Christ would be glorified. If that means I have to stand alone in the face of criticism from those who would call themselves followers of Jesus Christ, then so be it.

  110. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Dove’s dung represents a past movement of the Holy Spirit, a great revival from the past, but now long dead, that has been denomination-alized in the attempt to keep it alive beyond its time.

    Past revivals, like dove’s dung, are excellent fertilizer as we study its revelations, but we are to SEEK FRESH REVELATION in each generation.

    In fact, OUR MANNA OUGHT TO BE FRESH EVERY MORNING as we progress in our relationship and understanding of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.

    Old manna becomes wormy (Exodus 16:20).

  111. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    It is always interesting to me how the people who want to use the scriptures to support their OPINIONS, KNOW SO LITTLE ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES.

  112. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    AMEN, Teshuva.

  113. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Perhaps, those who are calling “BURN THE WITCHES” ought to actually STUDY the scriptures about how the BIBLE DEFINES sorcery and witchcraft……..because whatever CURSE one speaks against the works of the Holy Spirit is actually turned back on the one who speaks the CURSE, AS A JUDGMENT OF GOD.

    Read and KNOW the scriptures people, for the sake of the Kingdom of God and for the sake of your own selves and your families.

    God will NOT BE MOCKED.

  114. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Dear Barry ….here is a quote from your post.

    Jesus is 100% God but He also was and is and always will be a very easy and normal MAN and to live with. He is NOT MR. Wierdsville!


    Now let’s take a look at what the scriptures REALLY say about WEIRD things taking place in Jesus’ Life….not to mention the disciples’ lives.

    Jesus 1st miracle was getting a whole wedding party DRUNK….by turning water into the very best of wines.

    Then we have WALKING ON WATER….PETER DID TOO for a short time.

    Jesus teleported a whole BOAT FULL of Himself and the disciples across the sea.
    Philip TELEPORTED.
    The Transfiguration was either TELEPORTING or GHOSTS APPEARING…..which the bible condemns calling up spirits of the dead.


    The MOLECULES in Jesus’ body dis-assembled and went through a wall and then re-assembled.

    Jesus did a lot of disappearing acts….TELEPORTATION.

    Jesus MULTIPLIED BREAD AND FISH in a “sleight of hand”

    Do you think because you read the bible that if you saw a man calling Himself Jesus, this very day, YOU WOULD BELIEVE IT WAS HIM?
    And if this same man TELEPORTED right in front of the crowd of people, or multiplied MANNA for the crowd of people…….THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE?

    How about an ordinary man/woman telling people that they saw and went into HEAVEN and saw all these different many headed beasts and angels and chariots of fire?

    Do you think you would BELIEVE?


  115. JeffM Jul 5th 2013

    TheDude, telling us you are being humble and gracious REAKS of self-righteousness . By whose authority do you come hear and tell us that those people were not healed by Jesus? All those people say they got healed and you call them liars, prove they are lying! You have no clue what biblical testing is, Do you obey Jesus and do all that He tells you to do? Christ’s Kingdom is under the control of Jesus and all who are in it obey Him. Torben says he is doing what God told him to do, you prove to us that he is not ! No one has to prove to you that people got healed , Don’t you know that? Christ’s church is not some debate club and we must then try to win the debate.

  116. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Stephen St. Louis…..your post was SO on target. Amen

  117. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Wow…JeffM Those are some great truths!

  118. Roger (NZ) Jul 5th 2013

    “”…….Jesus warned His disciples against having this sectarian spirit. In Luke 9:49, 50, John said, “Master we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he that is not against you is for you.” John wanted the disciples to monopolize the truth among themselves and exclude all those who did not belong to his group. This sectarianism which Jesus condemned, is the spirit which dominated the Roman Church and was inherited by the Protestants.

    Jesus insisted that men have faith in Him, love Him and have koinonia with Him: “He who is not with me is against me; and he that does not gather with me scatters . . . I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me.” In such statements as these, Jesus made it clear that He is the sole and perfect means of salvation, and except through Him there is no salvation (compare Acts 4:12).

    But this attitude of Jesus cannot be called a sectarian attitude. He was making the essential distinction between those who were God’s and those who were not, not a sectarian distinction among those who were God’s. Sectarians are those who would make fellowship with Christ their exclusive privilege. They are not satisfied with belonging to Jesus, they would make Jesus belong to them.

    Jesus condemned the Pharisees not because they did not belong to His group, but because of their hypocrisy, untruthfulness and lack of love. He wanted all men to come to Him and have koinonia with Him, but He did not intend that those did come Him should have any exclusive group around Him. He chose twelve disciples to preach the Kingdom of God, not to create a sect.

    He never flattered people in power, such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, enticing them to join His group and help Him If He had compromised with the Pharisees, He could probably have obtained worldly influence easily. The fact that He never did such things was not simply that He wanted to make his followers honest and sincere, but also because He was communicating Life, and building a kingdom not of this world or according to its principles.

    Jesus had no thought of creating an organization or formal group around Himself, nor did he teach disciples to form any such organized group. Everything was dependent on the Spirit’s uniting men to God through their faith. How different Jesus was from those sectarians who, like the Scribes and Pharisees, search sea and land to make a member of their group, only to make him twice as much the child of Hell as themselves (Matt. 23:25).

    All that Christ wanted was faith in Himself. He had no interest in any institutional organization with worldly offices and laws. Neither did He give any dogmas or creeds which may be used to distinguish believers from non-believers. When He praised the faith of people, it was not because of their orthodox theology, or the fact that they belonged to some organization, but on account of their simple faith in His person……””

  119. Lightning Storm Jul 5th 2013

    Roger…..Absolutely Beautiful.
    I love HIM even more

  120. watchful Jul 5th 2013

    Amen Roger, good word……simplicity. And hopefully nobody will misunderstand and think you are accusing these young men of wrongdoing. On the contrary, I’m sure you hope and pray as I do that they will be aware of and resist the wiles of the adversary and remain in the humble simplicity of Christ, amen!

  121. Roger (NZ) Jul 5th 2013

    Amen watchful – that is exactly my hope and prayer.. 🙂

  122. Jda016 Jul 5th 2013

    Amen Barry, the things I have encountered and seen are incredibly weird.

    The practices of Rick Joyner’s school and Bill Johnson’s are very similar. “Fire tunnels” are to bring hilarious laughter and uncontrollable shacking. A “glory cloud” rose up at Johnson’s church (there is even a youtube video of it) which many say was God’s glory falling and others showed it to be just glitter ( I think of God’s glory falling in past revivals and before Israel and how it brought their faces to the floor).

    I went to a conference of Rick Joyner’s where women with extremely long hair writhed on the floor like serpents (these women were allowed on stage). A man was in the corner with his shirt off screaming inaudibly at a mirror and writhing about as if he was on fire. The “worship leader” sang (chanted actually) the words “come, come, come” over and over again. We sang no actuall worship song that I ever heard of. We walked out because we felt so oppressed.

    That’s not me even mentioning all the weird things that happened while I was at his school for 2 months before I left. But many of the same practices are done at Johnson’s school as well as Joyner’s school.

    Johnson’s bethel healing rooms use “techniques” such as “father ladders,” “fruit loop,” and “four doors.” The Manuel is full of rules and regulations. It has scripture and some Biblical things, but it also has a lot of mixture which includes new age positive thinking and pyschosomatic techniques. It also costs $35 if you want to even be trained in it.

    Let’s compare this to what Torben is doing. No Manuel’s, no charging new Christians money so they can also heal the sick, no techniques, just a very simple prayer in Jesus name and IT WORKS! God is not complicated when it comes to His name and the power that is In it. Torben is doing what is commanded in New testimant Christianity. The basis for the healing rooms training, techniques, and charge of admission is not found in the Bible.

    One more thing. I just read 1 Kings 18. This is Elijah against the the 450 prophets of baal. The prophets of baal danced, shouted and cut themselves for hours in order to try and get fire down from Heaven to consume the sacrifice. They did every “technique” they knew and nothing worked. Elijah prayed ONE SENTENCE and fire instantly fell from God.

    Is anyone else seeing a pattern?

  123. Jda016 Jul 5th 2013

    I am also sad to report that I knew a man whose wife was dying of cancer. He sold all he had, quit his job and moved to Redding California, in what he thought was faith, to get his wife healed. Bill Johnson’s ministry could not save her and she died. He came back to Houston a broken and disillusioned man.

    How desperate we are for what is real.

  124. Teshuva Jul 5th 2013

    Jda 016,
    Bill Johnson can not save anyone, only God can.
    When my dad died, I lost it and wept, my emotions were running wild and I was broken. I was only allowed to cry for a few minutes and God took the reins and pulled back my emotions and said, I have him. I said, You got him? Then what am I crying for? He fixed my brokenness. I was also to understand that the reason people have these emotions for so long, is because they do not understand death, and how LIFE comes from it. They are still carrying the sting of it, instead of saying, O death where is thy sting?

  125. Teshuva Jul 5th 2013

    Lightening Storm,
    Amen!!!! Don’t forget Old testament where the axe head raised up out of the water, and poisoned waters were made drinkable. Oh and Moses staff turned into a snake.

  126. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    I do not consider any of the miracles Jesus did in any way wierd. But where are these authentic Jesus miracles in WIERDSVILLE ?

    I don’t see anyone in Wierdsville multiplying wine, walking on water, etc etc ( and whatever other miracles Lightning mentioned ) . None of these biblical miracles are present in WIERDSVILLE – only out of control laughter, strange behaviors, hyper spirituality and complete powerless human sorcery .

    Where’s the beef in WIERDSVILLE ?
    There isn’t any!

    I believethat the authentic move of the Spirit of Jesus to come ( actually has already begun) will be outside the church meeting or conference halls, will be very unreligious, will be very “normally and authentically human” in every way ( except that it will be marked by outstanding and miraculous answers to prayer) , will be accomplished by very ordinary, imperfect , unpretentious and normal people who actually dispise and disdain the relogiosity, hyper spirituality, wierd or ostentatious behaviors of the nascent promoters of WIERDSVILLE . This genuine move pf God will be marked by a sincer and genuine acceptance of sinners where they are and with all their irreligious lifestyle. This move of God will be marked by love, unselfconscious holiness, fullness of joy and deep loyalty to Jesus and to each other .

    This move of God will not be among a hyper spiritual exclusive fringe group of religiois zealots but will be among the grassroots culturally mainstream families – among regular moms and dads, children, marketplace workers, friends and nieghbours . Everything about those involved will be ordinary and normal EXCEPT GOD ALMIGHTY WILL BE POWERFULLY PRESENT in supernatural demonstrations of miracle working power, deep heartfelt repentance and devotion to Jesus.

    Are you ready for a mass exodus from WIERDSVILLE ?

  127. Roger (NZ) Jul 6th 2013

    Barry – do you (or anyone else.?.) believe this authentic move of the Holy Spirit is only recent..?

    Or – has it being ongoing amongst everyday people since He was sent to indwell those whom God draws to Himself..?

    Personally, I believe the latter..

  128. watchful Jul 6th 2013

    The term witchcraft is only being applied to that which is not of God, not to that which is of God. Because that which is of God is not weird but is HOLY.

    Just think, the ark of the covenant was not permitted to be handled with hands of flesh, it had to be carried with poles, and not even just any poles, because it was HOLY. Think of what was inside the ark………………the tablets of stone written by the finger of God………miraculously. Aaron’s rod that budded…………miraculously. The manna that came down from heaven……………….miraculously. To handle God’s holy miraculous things with hands of flesh brought forth death not life. Should we not be of the same mind? And treat His holy things as HOLY? Not as playthings, not as things we use and do with as WE (flesh) please. If we start treating them as playthings and as idols, then we are as those trying to carry and play with fire with bare hands, and I have been a witness of this.

    The staff of Moses that he had in his hand turned into a snake as a sign to the Egyptians, we do not read of this miracle occurring later outside of Egypt……… think about what it was speaking to them. Egypt was a type of what we are called to come out of, the harlot church, by God’s grace let us not turn and become as those Egyptian priests.

  129. watchful Jul 6th 2013

    Jda016, you are absolutely right on in your discernment above…… is witchcraft. They have mishandled the power and things of God, and trying to be as God, and now it has become as a snake in their hands, to turn and bite them, bringing death.

  130. Teshuva Jul 6th 2013

    For us to think we can do anything apart from God, means we have cut ourselves off from Him. He does not require us to do anything for Him, but on the contrary, works through us to do His will, and pleasure. Christ is the greatest servant, and only He through us serves us and others. He said no weapon FORMED against us will prosper and yet I can only think of one weapon that has been formed from the beginning, and that is the carnal mind, leaving me to understand that no carnal mind formed against us will prosper. God said for us to acknowledge him in all our ways and he will direct our paths. How many of us acknowledge Him in all our ways? Acknowledge means to yada/know Him intimately. There is even scripture that says some were casting out demons, and the disciples wanted it stopped yet Yeshua says that they who were for them were not against them and to leave them alone. Sure there will be people who say Lord did we not cast out demons, heal the sick etc. and he says to them depart from Me, you worker of iniquity. In other words, you did not know the cause and effect of things, and thought you were doing it in your own power, not pointing people to Him.
    When I read where Moses went up and God wrote the words on the tablets, and came back down the mountain, I find that those stones were written on sapphire. That is a hard material and so leaves me to see that God broke His own commands, not Moses. How could a man break 4 to 6 inches of hard sapphire? Yet when he went back up the mountain, God said to Moses, you write the law, you want it, and so while Moses was writing the law, God was telling him about His Son and grace. So when Moses comes back down the mountain the second time his face shone and he would hide it because the glory would fade. Gods whole plan was to tabernacle with man, and yet the Hebrews wanted Moses to hear from God and they would do whatever God told Moses to tell them to do. Did they do this? No, because man can not do these things, lest God be in us. If God be for us who can be against us, yet the alternate to this is get behind me satan/carnal mind, you do not savor the things of God.

  131. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    Roger – yes this has been going on perpetually but there are seasons in history where this ordinary supernatural normal hits the mainstream of the populace and other seasons where it wins and is obscured to small pockets.
    In early church for a season it was said of the Lord’s work which became so prevalent , ” This gospel is spreading to more and more people so that everyone in Asia Minor has heard about it” and “from that time forward the name of Jesus became greatly feared amoung all the poeple” and “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world and then the end will come.”

    Teshuva- you are absolutely right on saying this is Gods work and not mans and that man can only produce mans work but God can only do Gods works.
    This is what is fundamentally and pervasively wrong with the religious zealots of today- they are trying to usurp and replace what ONLY Jesus can do IN THEM AND THROUGH THEM. Playing and mimicking what only Jesus can do – like cheap Elvis impersonators!

    True Christianity is not what we do do God but what God does through Jesus alone IN US , FOR US AND THROUGH US.

    This supernatural revival among the normal ordinary folk that I prophesied about is waiting for us to cease from our religious striving, place all our hope and confidence in Jesus alone plus nothing of ourselves, surrender and yield to the Holy Spirit who will come like a pent up flood when we do.

    The prophet Isaiah said, “arise and let your light shine..”
    Jesus said, “Let your light shine…”
    This means we ALREADY HAVE THIS REVIVAL LIGHT OF JESUS IN US SHINING! it means we don’t have to produce it or make it shine from self effort or striving .
    It means what it says “LET it shine- get the h out of the way and let Jesus wonderful love and works flow out of us blazing like the sun in all His glory!

    Any takers out there?

    Watchful- THIS work of God in us is holiness. Only God is holy and only God can and will do His holy works in and through us. Everything God does is HOLY- EVERYTHING GOD DOES FOR US , IN IS AND THROUGH IS IS HOLY-His love is holy, His works are holy , His miracles are holy, His motives are holy – EVERYTHING INITIATED AND COMPLETED BY MAN IS UNHOLY AND PROFANE!

    So called religious devotion and zeal initiated by man IS UNHOLY AND PROFANE regardless out good intentions!

    Let Gods holiness arise in His people !

  132. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    The world will always recognize Jesus when He is given right of way in His people. To date in this generation the world spurns the people of God like people spurn the cheap Elvis impersonators .
    But let Gods people yield to Jesus and let their Jesus light shine out of them and the world will begin to hate Gods people, will begin to respect Gods people, will begone to fear Gods people and multitudes will begin to LISTEN TO GODS PEOPLE – for the lost sheep will begin hear the voice of the Shepherd IN HIS PEOPLE AND WILL FOLLOW HIM.

    To date they only hear and see at best a cheap immigration of Jesus works and voice in His people.

  133. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered !
    Let the cheap Jesus impersonations cease!
    Let Gods holy fire and righteousness blaze like a torch

    Father glorify Thy Holy Son in Thy people in this generation !

  134. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    I had a marvelous confirmation of this word I speak. Recently I was working at a ladies house and noticed she was enormously overweight and who had breathing assist aperatuses all over her house .
    I just said, “Lord I surrender to Thy will in this household.”

    Within a few minutes I felt a deep concern and compassion rise up inside of me and found my self spontaneously and effortlessly inquiring of the ladies health condition. She told me she had a 275 pound tumor growing inside her stomach which was cutting off her lungs and internal organs from functioning. she told me she normally weighed less than 150 pounds but with the growing tumor she weighed over 400 pounds . ( Am I EVER glad I didn’t judge her for eating too much!!!!)
    I asked her if me and my apprentice could pray for her. I didn’t want it to be about me so I asked my young lady helper to lay hands on her and pray . All of us instantly felt heat like a fire go through us all. I left it that and said, “Lord Thy will be done”
    I saw a lady several weeks later who looked like this lady but because this lady was a normal size I thought it might be her sister . Again something inside me drive me to ask if she was related to someone who had a 275 pound tumor.
    To my utter astonishment she replied,
    ” Barry – I am that lady!!!”
    She told me after my helper prayed for her she began to sit in the toilet for the next two weeks and urinate that tumor out of her body. Jesus has slowly turned that mass to water and graciously and slowly filled that dear woman’s bladder with that water!!!

    I did nothing of myself ! I simply yielded to what Jesus wanted to do in that household!
    Try it you will like it!!!

  135. watchful Jul 6th 2013

    Teshuva, where Jesus said to leave them alone and forbid them not, I agree. (Although witchcraft might be in a different category than what He was addressing there.) But I don’t think he forbids us either to learn and talk about what scripture teaches us, concerning not profaning the holy things (specifically miracles) and where it can lead, especially where miracles are taking place. I think it very badly needs to be looked at. I know I have never heard it talked about that I can remember and so the Lord is teaching me. (Bearing I mind I can only talk about it in accordance with my gift, others like scribes might be able to go into in greater depth and detail etc, but for me I have to keep it simple, and that is ok I think because different gifts have different benefits.)

  136. Barry Schmidt Jul 6th 2013

    Sorry for hogging the comments here but I can’t shut this in or I will explode I to flames !! Lol
    As I thought about this story of unchurched people coming to US – I remembered how many times in gospels it says, “they came to Jesus to….” Or “they brought to Jesus a man who….” We don’t have to make it happen- God will “bring people to Jesus” IN US if only we will yield to Jesus and let Him use us!!!

    Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. (Isaiah 60:1-4 KJV)
    This prophesy shall be fulfilled in Gods people !

  137. Lightning Storm Jul 6th 2013

    The “gifts” that are talked about in the NT are not like a pack of pencils that are doled out 1 to each person.

    The Holy Spirit IS THE GIFT……who MANIFESTS healing, prophecy, words of wisdom, etc etc etc. WHENEVER HE WANTS TO AND THROUGH ANYONE HE WANTS TO. He can also STOP anytime He wants to.

    Just the same with the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT……..The “fruit” are the NATURE/CHARACTER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (God’s Nature). The NATURE/FRUIT of God cannot be “worked on” or achieved by the determination of a person.

    It is a flow of the Living Waters of the Spirit Himself when our SELF/FLESH BOWS DOWN AND SURRENDERS.

    When a person HONORS and SURRENDERS to the Holy Spirit AS GOD, then the Holy Spirit MANIFESTS HIMSELF……HIS GOODNESS, LOVE, PEACE, JOY etc.

    The Holy Spirit does NOT base this on how HOLY a person is.



  138. Barry Schmidt said: “I remembered how many times in gospels it says, “they came to Jesus to….” Or “they brought to Jesus a man who….” We don’t have to make it happen- God will “bring people to Jesus” IN US if only we will yield to Jesus and let Him use us!!!

    And I will add that God will SEND His apostles, and prophets, etc….. to the people, just as He did with John the Baptist and every other man and woman of God that He has used over the centuries.

    Luke 3:1-6

    “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

    “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight. Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever!

  139. TheDude Jul 6th 2013

    JeffM, I never called anyone a liar, nor did I say these people weren’t healed. All I was doing was pointing out that the video evidence alone doesn’t prove what it purports to prove. It very well could be true, but the video itself leaves many questions unanswered. Just because someone says its true doesn’t make it true. Just because Torben “says” he is doing this in the name of Jesus, doesn’t mean he is actually doing it in the name of Jesus. He may think he is, but it may be otherwise. This is what deception is all about. The Bible is replete with verses about this (some of which I pointed out in m previous post).

    I am not here to debate as that is useless. My point is that I think it disappointing when someone wants to genuinely and biblically, test the spirits, and they are met with personal attacks rather than answering the genuine questions that are being raised. If you don’t believe that my testing of the spirits is being done in a biblical manner, then maybe you could suggest what you believe would be a proper biblical way to test the spirits.

    You don’t know me, nor do I know you. Accordingly, I cannot judge your motives or your walk with the Lord, nor can you judge mine. You’ve asked if I obey everything that Jesus tells me to do. The answer to that question is I most certainly try when I feel the Lord speaking to me. If it would make any difference to you I could give you several examples, but suffice it to say that obeying God is the best way we can show we love Him.

    The only authority I have is through our Lord Jesus and I rely on His word as given to us in scriptures.

    My main point in all this to merely to ask the hard questions. In all the videos, I don’t see evidence in those being “healed” of being brought to repentance and an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord. After all, isn’t the point of all this to bring people to Jesus and not focus on the “healing”?

  140. fabakary Jul 6th 2013

    Barry Schmidt , a friend that post on this site ask me about your email because she though I might have your email. I promised her I did not get your email but will ask about it on the forum as I will also love it, as she said she is finding it difficult to post , not sure of the cause. My email is [email protected] in case you dont want yours to be public you can send me directly if that is ok with you. Stay bless

  141. Lightning Storm Jul 6th 2013

    wow…. I must be old.

    Who says that someone’s new birth experience has to be like a drive up fast food place?

    You know where I think people get this idea….from watching TV evangelists.
    Billy Graham and Billy Sunday started it all ……they would preach for an hour, sing, and do the invitation.

    VOILA….hundreds of people come forward in 1 hour!

    What the TV audience doesn’t know is how LONG God has been PREPARING THESE PEOPLE WHO GO FORWARD.

    Did every person that Jesus heal get born again? I think the scripture says “THEY BELIEVED”

    Does that mean they REPENTED AND GOT BORN AGAIN?

  142. JeffM Jul 6th 2013

    TheDude, the reason I asked you if you do obey the Lord and do everything Jesus tells you to do was not for examples , but as a type of test to see if you are able to say yes. People can either answer “yes I do what The Lord tells me to do” , or then whatever they say , whatever it may sound like , they are really saying “no I do not do everything The Lord tells me to do”. So when people tell me I try to obey the Lord , God showed me that really means “no I do not obey Him always “.

    So this relates to the videos because not always doing what The Lord says is the same as not always listening to what He says. The only way to know what is ‘of God’ is for God to show you in some way, and all the people that do not live a life of obedience are unable to hear from God about some things . If a person believes “I do not have to always obey The Lord Jesus ” , in their heart they also believe ” I do have to listen to Jesus “. So the real test is that you will react to something the way Jesus wants you to react, and you are unable to do that if you don’t always listen and obey. The Lord commands us to obey Him and God never said we don’t have to obey at any point in the word of God. We don’t have to obey the law because the Father himself now tells us what is right and what is wrong.

    I think the real point of the videos is to teach people to go out in public and pray for the sick and tell them about Jesus. That is how Jesus does what He wants to do thru us.

  143. Lightning Storm Jul 6th 2013

    The Holy Spirit does the preparing of the soil of people’s hearts.

    The Holy Spirit will prepare that soil ACCORDING to what works with that particular person.

    Don’t get into a RUT and EXPECT the Holy Spirit to work in the same way He did the last time you noticed Him working.

    The Hebrews made that same mistake and they got burned badly.

    They watched how the Lord sent them into the Land and took victory over and over.
    Each time they went into battle, THEY INQUIRED OF THE LORD and the Lord told them to put the Ark of the Lord in front of them…..and VOILA…..they won the battle.


    One day, after they had put GOD IN A BOX, they did not INQUIRE OF THE LORD and just took the Ark of the Lord and put it in front of them and went into battle.


    THEN they INQUIRED OF THE LORD to see why their men were slaughtered.


  144. Lightning Storm Jul 6th 2013

    Excellent truth JeffM.

  145. David m Jul 6th 2013

    Praise the Lord! Awesome testimony, Barry Schmidt.

  146. In answer to recent postings –

    The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is just the beginning to the spiritual and supernatural journey -we go on ‘to work out our salvation with fear and trembling’. We continue on and learn until the day we exit to Eternity. We are never too young or too old to learn more about Jesus and the Father. NO-ONE HAS GOT IT ALL YET. We strive like Paul towards the prize of the High Calling in Christ Jesus. We don’t rely on one event or one experience as the whole crux of our spiritual salvation. God is new every morning and so is His Holy Spirit leading. That is what makes it an exciting journey. We need to cry out every day to God and say “Lord I want more” and He loves to hear us say this. Because he wants to give us ‘the more’. HE fills those who hunger and thirst after His righteousness. He loves those hungry believers. He tells us to wait, to wait in “our Jerusalem” for the power from on high, for the spirit’s unction and then to go out. This is not a one time event this is continuous………………….

    Amen – meanwhile press on saints…………………….

  147. David Marsh Jul 6th 2013

    ” I did nothing of myself ! I simply yielded to what Jesus wanted to do in that household!
    Try it you will like it!!! ”

    Barry, my dear friend in Jesus, you have shown us exactly what our Lord wants us all to begin doing in these last days.
    It is the primary activity of the ekklesias, it is our goal as servants of our Lord Jesus Christ, it is how the world will be reached with the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

    God bless you and keep on winning,

    David Marsh.

  148. TheDude Jul 7th 2013

    JeffM, I believe you misintrepeted my comment about obeying God. Yes, I do, but when I say I try to, that means in my mind that I realize that there will be times I will fail. I don’t want to put myself on par with Jesus and assume my obedience to the Father is perfect; it isn’t. That is why God allows us to repent, even as believers. Repentance doesn’t end at salvation.

    None of us are perfect. God is doing a work in all believers. To make it clear, I am not “trying” to obey God in all things knowing that I am walking in disobedience. My entire life is spent in a life of obedience to our Lord. I have no agenda other to please Him.

    This why I said that you don’t know me and you know absolutely nothing of my life. If I were putting my life out in the public eye with videos on the Internet, then I would expect true believers to test what I was doing. Torben opens himself up to such testing be posting these videos.

    I am fortunate to have a dedicated group of believers in my life wherein we hold each other accountable and encourage each other in a daily walk in the spirit.

    If and when I ever go “public” with my deeds, then you can test me to see if it is of the Lord. I have no problem with that.

  149. vanessa Jul 7th 2013

    I guess I was one of those people Andrew is referring too.

    There is nothing wrong with being cautious and asking questions. Those clips only showed a small part of what was taking place (good or bad) and there is no way of telling just by that (unless God revealed it) whether it was of God or not.

    Nothing wrong with asking questions. Jesus often did. I’m actually surprised the way Andrew responded.

  150. Andrew Jul 7th 2013

    Actually – it was the Pharisees that were always questioning Jesus – trying to nitpick all the “wrong” things He was doing. They did not rejoice at the healings at all.

    That is why we need to take care when posting our judgmental thoughts without first checking things out properly.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  151. Marilyn Crow Jul 7th 2013

    Andrew S. quite rightly said in `Sad reaction to Walmart healings,` that `At some point we have to be about establishing what is right. We have to go forward into the `true,` thing.`

    And to go forward into the `true,` is to `know Christ more,` as the Apostle Paul & Roger, here, have encouraged us to do.

    The Gospel of Luke is about Christ the Mediator, the One who is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. To show this …

    He touched the man full of leprosy. (Luke 5: 13)
    He touched the bier of the dead young man. (Luke 7: 14)
    He touched the ear of the servant of the high priest. (Luke 22: 51)
    His touch cleansed the leper, raised the dead, & restored the ear Peter had severed.

    He has regard for all.
    He knows the grief of a wounded spirit.
    He comprehends the sorrow of a bereaved soul.
    He carries the burden of a broken heart.
    He senses the tragedy of a disabled body, whether through lameness, deafness, blindness or dumbness.
    He feels the solitude of the leper`s loneliness &
    He regards the distressing circumstances of the poor widows.

    Luke, the beloved physician shows the Lord`s pity, His grace, His considerate care & tender touch, His sincere sympathy & loving look, His mercy & compassion all blended into perfect harmony in one person – our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ.

    And Christ is still healing, comforting, bearing our sorrows & griefs, through Torben, Barry, you & me & thousands upon thousands throughout the world.

    Be encouraged…..Marilyn

  152. Barry Schmidt Jul 7th 2013

    Lightning – amen! Jesus is the gifted One in us- why should we be defined by a certain gift or let our works be defined by certain gifts when we can do whatever Jesus can do and wants to do in us. I hate those “gift inventories ” for this reason. I used to think I was proud when I filled those out because I moved in every gift regularly – Then I realized its NOT MY GIFTINGS BUT JESUS IN ME!

  153. Barry Schmidt Jul 7th 2013

    Tyrone Palmer- amen bro! God plants us as good seed WHERE HE WANTS US IN HIS FIELD- then we simply let Jesus shine out from us and people in the fields around us come running. When a man asked Kohn Wesley what his secret was he said to the man, “I suggest that you let God light you on fire and people will come and watch you burn!”

  154. Barry Schmidt Jul 7th 2013

    My email: hope this is safe- what the heck safe sucks!!’
    [email protected]

  155. Barry Schmidt Jul 7th 2013

    You know friends I totally get and appreciate both sides of the questioning miracles argument. Asking questions is always wise and yet skeptism and cynicism is folly also.
    When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. And He asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute; and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it. ” (Mark 9:14, 16-18 NASB)

    I think for me the times when I am like the disciples who were arguing – I personally have been most apt to get into debate about this issue is when I am not in the game as much as I would like to be .

    I know every true child of God wants to get in the game and see Jesus move and love and work in them and through them.

    Isn’t it true that we all usually cease arguing and just start being in awe and amazement and gratitude and joy when Jesus walks in us and does His wonderful works in us?

    Lets all just accept each other on ONE BASIS ALONE- JESUS DEATH AND SPIRIT IN US- and lets all together just surrender and yield to His Holy Spirit in us – and lets just each one do and speak whatever JESUS MOVES US TO DO AND SAY.

    The rest is JUST STRAW!

  156. Barry Schmidt Jul 7th 2013

    Marilyn- beautiful words Sister–
    “I desire mercy not sacrifice”

  157. GaryB Jul 7th 2013

    I just found out this is free today on Wigglesworth:

    Thought someone might be interested. 🙂


  158. Marilyn Crow Jul 7th 2013

    Thank you Barry, & Gary I read about Wigglesworth from your link, & appreciated it also.


  159. watchful Jul 8th 2013

    What I have seen is that all kinds of problems arise when we tear out an entire chapter of the bible (and more!) concerning the different parts of the body, in particular 1 Cor. 12……..mainly that people try to put their brothers and sisters into a box, a box made in their own image. It imposes burdens on folk that they were never meant to carry, as well as false guilt that they aren’t doing what so-and-so is doing. Everyone needs to be free to be what they were uniquely called and gifted to be. So while we don’t put God in a box, I don’t think we should ignore everything that we are told about the various gifts and parts either. Each one is even given different measures of faith, another thing that is often forgotten about. And even the weaker among us serve a purpose in testing the character of the stronger…..oh my, yes, how we treat our weaker members tells a tale, that’s for sure. We should not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

    Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

    Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

  160. chas351 Jul 8th 2013

    The Art of Revelation by Jonathan Welton (Intro, Chapter 1 & 2)
    by Jonathan Welton

    The Art of Revelation

    Jonathan Welton

  161. Lightning Storm Jul 8th 2013

    chas351….Thank you for your Jonathan Welton post. I would like to read the entire book. Will try the link you posted.

  162. Marilyn Crow Jul 8th 2013


    So true about trying to put each other into boxes or us having to do such & such etc. I`ve felt people try & do that to me. As you said we are all parts of His Body & it is to Him we look & praise for what He is doing in us & in our brothers & sisters.

    Going beyond the person to see what the Lord is doing in & through them. And here I`m thinking of those around that I know & learn from in daily life. I can be a `big picture,` person & I so appreciate those who labour in daily life with family, difficulties, work etc & try to help where I can & pray, for we are all on this journey together.

    And what I learn from these ones is how the Holy Spirit through them has a real heart & compassion for those they come in contact with & that is making me address the `now,` as well as an eye on `direction.`

    Thank you for your `now,` perspective in the Lord, sister.


  163. Marilyn Crow Jul 8th 2013

    Chas351 (& everyone.)

    You said, `the backdrop of the whole Bible is needed to understand the point & purpose of revelation.` So true.

    The Lord Himself showed His disciples,
    `And beginning with Moses & with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the scriptures.`
    (Luke 24: 27)

    And isn`t this what Andrew Strom is encouraging us to do,
    `to go forward into the `true` thing.`


    The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person. There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry which He exercised when on earth.

    His Kinship (relational) was expressed epressed Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke & His Judgeship in John. Christ is displayed as being relatively, legally, morally & judicially qualified to uphold & maintain the will, the Word, the wisdom, & the work of God. These four obligations He discharges righteously, honorably, faithfully & perfectly.

    To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are 330 references to the figures, shadows, types, patterns, persons & buildings of the Old Testament.

    The unveiling is the culmination of all truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose & that is to reveal Christ to us in all His glory.

    Vision 1. Christ the Head of the Body.

    This shows the administrative authority of the empowered Son of Man. `in His right hand He held 7 stars.`

    Vision 2. Christ the Heir.

    This shows the executive activity of the enthroned Son of Man.
    `in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`

    Vision 3. Christ the Mediator.

    This shows the reconciliative advocacy of the exalted Son of Man.
    `in His hand is a sacred censer.`

    Vision 4. Christ the Judge.

    This shows the regenerative ability of the entitled Son of Man in His Creatorship & Judgeship. `in His hand is a sharp sickle.`

    What inexpressible pleasure God the Father enjoyed when unveiling His Son`s true character & credentials, for the purpose of showing His bond servants the regal nature of His well Beloved.


  164. watchful Jul 8th 2013

    Amen, Marilyn……..this is just something I have been becoming more aware of in recent times. It is very glorifying to God to see His manifold wisdom displayed in manifold ways through His many people. To me when I was less aware of how He is working through my brothers and sisters was when I put Him in a box more, thinking that He used everyone pretty much the same. And this growing awareness of the many gifts and parts of the body has opened a window on seeing Christ in others, it is truly humbling.

    Thanks for sharing that on Revelation Chas351, that is something I need to take a look at…already saved to my computer!

  165. Andrew, you and your followers are in huge trouble. You work so hard to promote the flesh that you think you can discredit or attack anyone who says “any trickster can appear to lengthen a leg a half inch”.

    Andrew, why do you attack the truth in the age of deception?

    Will this help you sell more product?

    Repent before it’s too late.

    Yes, Andrew, any trickster can appear to do miracles. So, you may now attack the truth once again.

  166. Marilyn Crow Jul 8th 2013

    Watchful, (& others)

    I may have been a bit unclear in my position regarding what Chas 351 has said. I totally disagree with his position. It is Christ that God would have us focus on & not trying to prove that it is all history. Just confuses people.

    Christ is the Centre of His Word.


  167. Lightning Storm Jul 8th 2013


    Are FEARMONGERS walking by the Holy Spirit?

    Walking by the Holy Spirit is being FILLED with DIVINE Love, DIVINE Peace, DIVINE Faith, DIVINE Joy, DIVINE Meekness, DIVINE Longsuffering, DIVINE Temperance, DIVINE Gentleness, DIVINE Goodness.

    I’m pretty sure there isn’t any FEAR in the DIVINE Holy Spirit.

  168. Lightning Storm Jul 8th 2013

    FEAR NOT is listed in the King James version…144 times.

    the Hebrew word: yare’ is used 305 times in the OT….most OFTEN in the NEGATIVE.

    1) to fear, revere, be afraid
    a) (Qal)
    1) to fear, be afraid
    2) to stand in awe of, be awed
    3) to fear, reverence, honour, respect
    b) (Niphal)
    1) to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared
    2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe
    3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe
    c) (Piel) to make afraid, terrify
    2) (TWOT) to shoot, pour

    The Greek word: phobeō is used in the NT 110 times.

    1) to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
    a) to put to flight, to flee
    b) to fear, be afraid
    1) to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm
    a) of those startled by strange sights or occurrences
    b) of those struck with amazement
    2) to fear, be afraid of one
    3) to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
    c) to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

    Then we have the words ANXIOUS; WORRY; CONCERNED used 21 times in the NT. ALL of which are used in the NEGATIVE.


    1) to be anxious
    a) to be troubled with cares
    2) to care for, look out for (a thing)
    a) to seek to promote one’s interests
    b) caring or providing for

  169. Averyl Jul 8th 2013

    “Fearmongers” is a negative description of people who warn others. We warn our children not to do things with their safety in mind but we don’t call in fearmongering!

  170. Roger (NZ) Jul 8th 2013

    Amen Marilyn and Watchful:

    Indeed we are – one body, a living organsim, having one head (Lord Jesus), with the body having many diverse members, each with differing giftings and callings, as determined by the one Holy Spirit.

    Yet there is unity in this diversity, as long as we see Christ Jesus our Lord as the reason for our unity. He did not create us as clones, but as unique individuals, according to (and for) His pleasure.

  171. watchful Jul 8th 2013

    Love you all in the Lord……Lightning Storm, you sure do keep me on my toes. All I can say is that if Paul twice said he feared for the church of Corinth, then it shouId be ok for us to feel similar concern as well when it is warranted. And the reality is that it is warranted a lot so we can’t afford to let down our guard. In one of those statements what Paul feared was that they were departing from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    The pitfall that the Lord was gracious to show me is a danger that needs to be avoided, it’s not fear mongering or inappropriate to shine a light on the enemy’s snares, it is love and concern, not to mention a duty. What Averyl said is very sensible.

  172. Marilyn Crow Jul 9th 2013


    I love that statement you said, `the simplicity that is in Christ.`
    That was my concern when I read that long, complicated, history focussed misguiding information posted by Chas351.

    Where was the simplicity of Christ there?
    Where was the encouragement to `know Him more?`

    I hope that as you read that misinformation that you will realise that it is not pointing us to our precious Lord, but just a confusing
    amount of `gobly gook.`

    Looking unto Jesus….. Marilyn.

  173. Marilyn Crow Jul 9th 2013


    Another thought in regard to your important statement `the simplicity of Christ,` is that it leads us to focussing on the `true,` as Andrew Strom has encouraged us to do.

    Why there are so many conflicting statements here on the blog & not always the truth is that people have not been taught how God desires His Word to be interpreted. It is not open season for all our opinions as we each have those, & plenty of them. But God has` His keys,`for studying His Word.

    Your important statement, `the simplicity of Christ,` leads us to the very first Key.


    `And beginning with Moses & with all the prophets, He (Jesus) explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the scriptures.` (Luke 24: 27)

    This wonderful key aligns our focus when reading His Word. It also helps with our conversation to each other to be encouraging & uplifting, & helps us to discern error when people would give us
    so-called information.

    The Holy Spirit & His Word agree. If we just go by what we think the Holy Spirit is saying we can over ride Him in our carnal thinking, or if we just rely on our thoughts of the Word we also get into trouble. It needs to be the Holy Spirit enlightening our eyes with His keys for interpreting His Word.

    There are other keys but it is good to get used to using one for awhile first.


  174. Bill Johnson, and all these false prophets, teachers, evangelists…

    Hi again Trenton,

    Earlier this year I felt the Lord placed it on my heart to investigate Bill Johnson… 🙂

    I started with what Bethel expressed as what they believe – I don’t see anything wrong with the statement of what they believe which I posted previously on this thread…

    I then listened to a number of Bill Johnson’s sermons (videos) on YouTube – they were all recent – I tried to listen to as recent as I could…

    He honoured the Lord Jesus – He honoured knowing the Lord Jesus – He honoured the Lord Jesus’ words – I am not saying that I agreed 100% with every single thing I heard him share but he definitely believes that Jesus is God and is Man – always was God and always will be God…

    I am judging him by his own confession and his own confession of surrender to the Lord Jesus – and he has committed himself to the Lord Jesus and is living to honour him – I could tell this through the spirit of what he was sharing in his sermons…

    In the sermons I watched on YouTube which were at Bethel, Redding there was prayer for the sick where people gathered around those who were sick and prayed for them – I didn’t see anything “weird” or “suspect” or “new age” or “whatever” in any of these YouTube videos – this was happening in their services – praying for the sick and people were expressing that they were healed… 🙂

    Bill Johnson is “going after” healing… He is taking seriously Jesus’ words, “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons” and is wanting his life and the life of his local congregation to demonstrate this…

    I never heard him call himself a prophet or a healer or anything else for that matter…

    He came across to me as a very humble man who knew the Lord personally, had surrendered himself to Him and wanted to serve and please Him…

    I was blessed by many of the things which I heard him share and know that he is my brother is Christ…

    Does that make him perfect? No…

    Does that mean that he’s never made a mistake in his life? No…

    But I would say this…

    If Bill Johnston belongs to the Lord – as I know that he does (I have been praying for him – interceding for him – I know that God has a plan for him in the USA) – and you say that he doesn’t and worse you say that he is a false prophet, a false teacher and a false evangelist (if that’s what you’re saying) – when his heart is actually set on the Lord and to the best of his current knowledge he is serving the Lord – if you say that – when in reality he has been born of God, knows that Jesus is God and is his Lord – then I believe this following scripture applies to you (and to anyone else who agrees with you)…

    But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. (Galatians 5:15 NASB)

    If you slander God’s children then God doesn’t like it… 🙁

    I would rather stay silent about someone than slander them…

    If you really believe what you are saying about Bill Johnson to be true then why don’t you say, “The Holy Spirit told me that Bill Johnson doesn’t belong to God, is not a child of God and is purposefully leading the people of God astray as a messenger of Satan”?

    I’m being serious…

    If you really believe it and are willing to stake your life on it why don’t you say that?

    And if you do say that and you are wrong then you will be blaspheming the Holy Spirit…

    So thinking about that, would that make any difference to you in what you say or do not say?

    This goes for others also, not just Trenton, who have commented on Bill Johnson in this thread above…

    When you make comments about people – who are actually your brothers and sisters in the Lord – and say publically that they are not and condemn and run them down – you are actually condemning and running down Jesus – because He stands with them – He is one spirit with them just as He is one spirit with you if you belong to Him…

    When you do this you fight against yourself…

    And God doesn’t like it…

    So if you can’t say, “The Holy Spirit told me…” regarding Bill Johnson in a “negative” way then I suggest that you don’t say anything “negative” about him at all but take your concerns to the Lord in prayer and support him in prayer…

    I don’t sense from any of the comments made by anyone above about Bill Johnson that any of you (commenters) have done this…

    But this is what scripture tells you to do…

    If you think you are spiritual then you are meant to be able to restore someone who you think is caught in a fault with a spirit of meekness – that’s the proof of your spirituality – I don’t see that in the comments made about Bill Johnson above…

    We need to be careful – we are – those who believe in the Lord – one family…

    If you don’t believe that Bill Johnson is in God’s family what should your response to him be?

    Pray for his salvation…

    But it is patently obvious to me from listening to him preach and reading his statement of faith on his local congregations’ website that he does know and believe and love the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ – he knows He is God and he knows He is Lord – I am not saying that he is perfect, I am not saying that everything he does or endorses is right or perfect but if we see such a one who loves our Lord Jesus Christ endorsing or doing something which we don’t believe to be right or true what is our response to be?

    Bag them impersonally on a website?

    I know that I’m “sticking my neck out” with this post but I cannot remain silent on this issue… 🙂

    Love you,


  175. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    Watchful…..I found where Paul makes that statement about FEARING for the church in Corinth.

    Since the whole of the scriptures CONDEMNS BEING FEARFUL, ANXIOUS AND WORRIED, then I would have to say that Paul was of weak faith when it came to the letter he was writing.

    After all, Paul was not sinless like Jesus.
    And after all, Paul himself said that ANYTHING THAT IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

    Rom 14:23 KJV – And he that DOUBTETH is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

    Being FEARFUL, WORRIED, ANXIOUS, CONCERNED is the opposite of putting your FAITH (trust and confidence) in God.

  176. watchful Jul 9th 2013

    Marilyn, thank you, I appreciate your concern……I haven’t finished reading it yet….usually when I read a thing I just glean what I need to glean, and don’t necessarily take in the whole thing. I agree that Christ is the focus, and that He is the key actually (Key of David) and also that the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher, amen.

    I honestly don’t consider my understanding of this to be fully formed yet (ie, interpreting/understanding scripture) so I’m reluctant to even try to discuss it in writing until I have a better grasp of things. I don’t even have the right words for the understanding that I do have, or think I have. The only thing I think I will venture to say categorically is that the scriptures are the living word of God, alive and active!

  177. watchful Jul 9th 2013

    Well Lightning Storm, all I will say is that Paul’s concern for the church turned out well in that it prompted him to warn and share many good truths with them, which we still benefit from today….blessings to you and good night, I’m off to bed now.

  178. JeffM Jul 9th 2013

    Andrew J Horton, you said “I didn’t see anything “weird” or “suspect” or “new age” or “whatever” in any of these YouTube videos ”

    You must be part of the deception then because this stuff is of the occult, demonic manifestations , false signs meant to deceive. This is not the shekinah glory of God in this video, saying you believe in Jesus and not knowing a demonic false sign is a result of making “self” your god.

    this is new age worship of another false Jesus,

  179. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    Perhaps the organized church has been to PRE-OCCUPIED with fighting with their flesh a battle that has already been won by Jesus Christ on the cross.

    Too PRE-OCCUPIED with the works of the devil.

    Too PRE-OCCUPIED with a devil that has been falsely portrayed as having EQUAL POWER AND AUTHORITY as the TRINITY…..which includes the Holy Spirit that is dwelling within EVERY BORN AGAIN person. Even the BABES HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    USURPING the role of the Holy Spirit is very dangerous for one’s health and welfare…….check the scriptures.

    True Faith…not Emotional Faith….but TRUE FAITH believes in the TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

    Jesus shows us TRUE FAITH.
    Jesus also REVEALS TRUE FAITH in His Prayer to His Father for ALL of us.

    Look at the FAITH shown in His Prayer of John 17.

    Jhn 17:11 NASB – “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, KEEP THEM IN YOUR NAME, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
    Jhn 17:12 NASB – “While I was with them, I WAS KEEPING THEM in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
    Jhn 17:13 NASB – “But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
    Jhn 17:14 NASB – “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Jhn 17:15 NASB – “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but (I ask You) TO KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE.
    Jhn 17:16 NASB – “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Jhn 17:17 NASB – (YOU) “SANCTIFY THEM IN THE TRUTH; Your word is truth.
    Jhn 17:18 NASB – “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
    Jhn 17:19 NASB – “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
    Jhn 17:20 NASB – “I do not ask on behalf of these ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO who believe in Me through their word;

    WHO does the SAVING? God
    WHO does the KEEPING? God
    WHO does the SANCTIFYING? God

  180. Averyl Jul 9th 2013

    Andrew J, – at least you don’t call Bill Johnson a “cancer on the Body of Christ”!

    Does anyone know what’s happened to Randall Lowrey? Miss his blogs.

  181. Roger (NZ) Jul 9th 2013

    Averyl – Randall’s PC is down, but he is OK – no doubt he will be back soon.

  182. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    I am having such a hard time accepting that the word WEIRD only applies to the demonic.

    What does WEIRD mean?

    Definition of WEIRD
    : of, relating to, or caused by witchcraft OR THE SUPERNATURAL : magical
    : of strange or extraordinary character : ODD, FANTASTIC

    common, ordinary, plain, usual

    Related Words
    aberrant, abnormal, addlepated, flaky; extraordinary, fantastic (also fantastical), freak, freakish, freaky, phantasmagoric (or phantasmagorical), phenomenal; atypical, rare, singular, uncommon, uncustomary, unique, unusual, unwonted; conspicuous, notable, noticeable, outstanding, prominent, salient, striking; atrocious, outrageous, shocking; crotchety, idiosyncratic, nonconformist, nonmainstream, out-there, unconventional, unorthodox; baffling, bewildering, confounding, mystifying, perplexing, puzzling

    Near Antonyms
    average, commonplace, everyday, garden, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, standard, typical, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday; conformist, conservative, conventional; expected, familiar, knee-jerk, predictable; common, customary, frequent, habitual, regular

    Synonym Discussion of WEIRD
    weird, eerie, uncanny mean mysteriously strange or fantastic. weird may imply an unearthly or supernatural strangeness or it may stress queerness or oddness . eerie suggests an uneasy or fearful consciousness that mysterious and malign powers are at work . uncanny implies disquieting strangeness or mysteriousness .


    The One True God of the bible is NOT NORMAL NOR NATURAL.

    He comes to SHOCK AND AWE!

    I say “Thank God that He is NOT a comfortable little idol that fulfills mankind’s desires, dreams, and PERFORMS according to mankind’s EXPECTATIONS”.

    That LIST of what is acceptable behavior for God is what got the Jews CUT OFF of the Vine.

    The Jews did not APPROVE of the UNACCEPTABLE AND UNEXPECTED BEHAVIOR of Jesus Christ…..therefore did not RECOGNIZE nor BELIEVE WHO HE WAS and did not want Him to be their King.
    He was not “acting” like the King of the Jews.

  183. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    Have we thrown out of the bible all the SUPERNATURAL POWER OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD?

    Were the Hebrews experiencing New Age phenomena in the wilderness? Or are these myths?

    The Cloud of Glory Presence led them by day.
    The Fiery Presence led them by night.
    Quail falling from the sky
    Peculiar particles called Manna falling from the sky
    A GLOWING FACE that appears WEIRD enough to scare others
    A bush that burns but is never consumed
    A wooden staff that turns into a snake.
    A hand that miraculously turns leperous; and just as miraculously is healed.

    Exd 4:3 KJV – And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

    Exd 4:6 KJV – And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.

    Exd 4:7 KJV – And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his [other] flesh.

    What was the PURPOSE of these MANIFESTATIONS?

    To PROVE to the people that GOD EXISTS and He is Who He says He is!

    The Hebrews had been praying for over 400 years and received no freedom from their judgment of slavery……they were filled with UNBELIEF.

    Moses was filled with UNBELIEF….Moses did not BELIEVE that God would do what He said He was going to do. He thought God was going to leave him hanging out on a limb after Moses said all the things God told him to say.

    I hear people say “we GLORIFY You, Lord”, “Glory to the Lord”, “give GLORY to the Lord”, ” if it GLORIFIES the Lord” etc etc.

    Each person has their own homemade version/definition of what that means.
    But our minds must CONFORM to the mind of Jesus Christ…..not continually making up our own way of thinking.


    Exd 16:10 KJV – And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the GLORY of the LORD APPEARED in the cloud.


    Therefore, when the scripture talks about bringing GLORY to the Lord; GLORIFYING the Lord etc etc
    it is talking about each of us, or as a group, being so surrendered to HIS Presence that His Nature is tangibly MANIFESTED to the people around us. In whatever FORM God deems necessary for the people to BELIEVE that He exists and that He is GOOD/can be TRUSTED.

    It could be the “GLORY Face” like Moses manifested.
    It could be miracles, signs, and wonders.

    Miracles, signs, and wonders could be anything that has already been mentioned in the scriptures….both OT and NT…..or even beyond those things….because the miracles and wonders that Jesus did the 40 days AFTER His ascension HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN FOR US TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. There is NO RECORD of what Jesus did SPECIFICALLY in those 40 days.

    If you’re not experiencing His tangible Presence in your private prayer time, you’re missing the LIFE that Jesus Christ DIED TO GIVE TO EACH OF US for the salvation of the rest of the world.

  184. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    If you’re not experiencing His tangible Presence in your private prayer time, you’re missing the LIFE that Jesus Christ DIED TO GIVE TO EACH OF US for the salvation of the rest of the world.

    The scripture states the following:

    Rom 3:23 KJV – For all have sinned, and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD;

    In other words….you have failed to manifest the tangible Presence of God and His Nature.

  185. Andrew Jul 9th 2013

    Andrew J – I have been very specific and clear about the problems I have with Bill Johnson. For years he has been an ardent supporter of the “Toronto” manifestations movement. He was (and is) one of Todd Bentley’s biggest supporters. Bethel practices “fire tunnels” to get ‘drunk’ in the spirit. Etc, etc.

    It is not his “teachings” that I have flagged so much. It is the “anointing” that he wants to transfer onto people. That is a very big issue, in my view.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  186. Marilyn Crow Jul 9th 2013

    Averyl, I also missed Randall & his posts. Thank you Roger for letting us know he`s OK. Tell him he is missed & know that God is with him.

    Lightning Storm.

    I appreciate what you are saying about being in God`s presence. I also believe that `experiencing,` comes through being changed into His likeness, which is the most amazing work of God in our lives.


  187. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    Marilyn Crow

    That’s what I said…..manifesting His tangible Presence AND HIS NATURE.

    Said it at least 3 times.

  188. Marilyn Crow Jul 9th 2013

    I hear you Lightning Storm. Bless you. Marilyn.

  189. watchful Jul 9th 2013

    When the Lord God does a work it is holy………….and we should be in awe enough to not handle it with our hands of flesh and make an idol of it, much less glory in it. If we do that then His work brings death to us. This was Toronto’s biggest probblem as far as I’m concerned, I was there and saw it. It is in our HEART how we treat the things of God but that is what repentance is for, and growth.

    The presence of the Holy Spirit makes demons manifest……..but if the demons don’t come out but rather are allowed to have a field day, then it is the presence of another spirit and not the HOLY Spirit. And when man USES these things, that is witchcraft. Most of the deceptions are mixtures, so that is something to keep in mind, but unless they turn around, as time goes on there is less and less of God and more and more of the enemy. Because His glory/presence is departing (Holy Spirit is grieved). We know from scripture what God thinks of hybrids/mixtures, so we are not to touch the unclean thing but come out of there.

    We don’t just sit back and say well God will take care of everybody so I don’t have to be concerned or do at thing. This was not the example of the early church. Paul was always on guard for the church and admonishing and warning constantly with the help of the Holy Spirit, and with good reason. Jesus was concerned enough about Lazarus to weep at his death, and then He did something about it. We don’t consider Him to have been of weak faith. And we are not of weak faith when we weep and plead with the Father on somebody’s behalf or stick our neck out to warn. Sometimes it is our fear for another’s situation which prompts intercession, the sharing of warnings, admonishments or what-have-you. Which hopefully will be heeded so as to allow the Holy Spirit to make any necessary adjustments in our thinking.

  190. JeffM Jul 9th 2013

    Revelation 2:4-5

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    4 But I have this [one charge to make] against you: that you have left (abandoned) the love that you had at first [you have deserted Me, your first love].

    5 Remember then from what heights you have fallen. Repent (change the inner man to meet God’s will) and do the works you did previously [when first you knew the Lord], or else I will visit you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you change your mind and repent.

  191. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    The devil visited Jesus, just as the devil visits us in one form or another.

    Any unforgiveness or unhealed wounds of the heart that the scriptures command that we be SANCTIFIED from; HEALED from; PURIFIED from…………..GIVE THE DEVIL LEGAL ACCESS TO TORMENT AND ATTACK US.
    Many confessing christians are surrounded by familiar spirits because of unrepentant sins; Many are INFLUENCED by principalities and powers because of a lack of Walking by the Holy Spirit.
    These are NOT demon possessed, but they are SURROUNDED and being INFLUENCED AND/OR ATTACKED because of their unrepentant sins, disobedience, and lack of knowledge about HOLINESS AND TOTAL SUBMISSION TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    The MANIFESTATIONS of demons are NORMAL when people are praying for DELIVERANCE AND CASTING THEM OUT.

    Doing the REAL thing is NOT a prim and proper church service……it is messy…..take a look at the demonic deliverances in the NT.

    In the NT, Jesus is dealing with 1 demoniac at a time….in one instance (the herd of pigs incident) there were 2 demoniacs.

    So what does it look like when you have a whole congregation full of demons, principalities, powers, rulers of wickedness, familiar spirits, witchcraft practicioners……….and then the Glory of God comes to set people free all at once? Deliverance and healing all at once on a whole congregation of people?

    Pretty messy……but pretty amazing that God loves people that much

    There were plenty of historical (1700’s and 1800’s and early 1900’s)revival preachers that wrote about being unprepared for what it looks like for a whole congregation to be delivered……it scared them, it made them doubt that it was of God because it was so bizarre

    But they sought God in prayer and fasting and rose up believing.

    I suggest that this same method (seek God, fast, pray for Truth) used by these preachers be used TODAY to come to the TRUTH FROM GOD HIMSELF AND TO HELP OUR UNBELIEF.

  192. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    ALL sin is ROOTED IN UNBELIEF. Unbelief about what?

    There is something ABOUT GOD HIMSELF that we don’t believe.
    EVERY sin and iniquity can be traced back to NOT BELIEVING 1 or any number of these 5 statements below.

    1)God is Who HE SAID HE IS.
    2)God can do what HE SAID HE CAN DO
    3) I am who God said I am
    4) I can do ALL things IN (while I am abiding in HIS Presence) Christ Jesus

    (Jesus Christ is called “The Word of God” Rev 19:13 NASB – He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.)

  193. watchful Jul 9th 2013

    Lightning Storm, that was the point I was making – the same people go to meeting after meeting manifesting the same things……they are not being delivered of their “manifestations” nor even seeking to be….they are just “playing” with it all and encouraging it. It had all turned into an idolatrous commotion a long time ago and the presence of God left the house – they don’t know they are playing with fire – new age spirits which are actually the same devils of Hinduism, Buddhism etc. (kings of the east?) But the Lord is both merciful and mighty and He is able to deliver His own if they are willing and repent of idolatry etc.