LEE GRADY on JOHN MACARTHUR’s “STRANGE FIRE”

TO MY FUNDAMENTALIST BROTHER JOHN MACARTHUR: GRACE TO YOU TOO
by J. Lee Grady

Fundamentalist pastor John MacArthur is a gifted preacher, author and lover of Scripture. His Grace to You radio program points countless people to the Bible, and his Master’s Seminary trains hundreds of ministry leaders. He´s a staunch Calvinist, but that doesn´t make him any less my brother in Christ. Unfortunately, MacArthur can´t say the same about me – and that´s sad. In his new book Strange Fire, he declares in no uncertain terms that anyone who embraces any form of charismatic or Pentecostal theology does not worship the true God.

My brother in Christ has written me off.

In John MacArthur´s rigid world, anybody who has sought prayer
for healing, claimed a miracle, received a prayer language, prophesied,
sensed God speaking to them, felt God´s presence in an emotional
way or fallen down on the floor after receiving prayer has already
stepped out of the bounds of orthodoxy.

MacArthur says charismatics think they worship God but that
actually we are worshipping a golden calf. “Every day millions of
charismatics offer praise to a patently false image of the Holy
Spirit,” MacArthur says early in the book. “No other movement
has done more damage to the cause of the gospel.”

He doesn´t just write off fringe elements of our movement; he
skewers the original founders of Pentecostalism and even goes
after Baptist author Henry Blackaby for teaching that God can
speak to people today.

MacArthur, who is 74, urges evangelical Christians to engage in
a “collective war” to stop the spread of the charismatic movement,
which he describes as a “deadly virus,” a “deviant mutation of the
truth” and a “Trojan horse” that has infiltrated mainstream
Christianity. MacArthur writes, “Charismatic theology has turned
the evangelical church into a cesspool of error and a breeding
ground for false teachers.”

No one familiar with MacArthur is surprised by Strange Fire, since
it is really a rehashed version of his 1993 book Charismatic Chaos.
Unfortunately, some charismatics have given MacArthur plenty of
new ammunition to support his case that we are all a bunch of
sleazy con artists and spiritual bimbos. Our movement is new and
fraught with problems, so MacArthur doesn´t have to look hard to
find examples of troublesome doctrine. But instead of offering
fatherly correction, he pulls out his sword and hacks away.

I´m no five-point Calvinist, but I will make five points here in response
to MacArthur´s book:

1. Not all charismatics and Pentecostals have embraced errors or
excesses. To MacArthur´s credit, he quotes charismatic leaders
who have addressed legitimate abuses and errors in our movement.
But then he writes us off with a broad brush. Actually, the majority
of our movement is not in error, even though we all know of doctrines
and practices that need correction. There are millions of healthy
charismatic and Pentecostal churches around the world that are
winning the lost, launching missionary endeavors and helping the
poor. And charismatics and Pentecostals are fueling the global
growth of Christianity-even with our flaws.

2. We must leave room for the present-day power of God. MacArthur
believes God´s miracle-working power stopped around 100 A.D.
He says healing, tongues, prophecy, visions and other supernatural
manifestations described in the New Testament don´t work today.
MacArthur is particularly irked that charismatics emphasize
speaking in tongues (which he calls “gibberish”); he also complains
that we have a “perverse obsession with physical health” (in other
words, if you get sick, just accept it because God doesn´t heal
anymore). But the New Testament doesn´t tell us that heaven
flipped a switch and turned off the Spirit´s power. That is
MacArthur´s opinion, not a biblical doctrine.

3. The church needs a fresh emphasis on the Holy Spirit.
MacArthur says charismatics are guilty of an unhealthy focus
on the Holy Spirit. He claims that the Spirit points only to Jesus
and that we shouldn´t seek the Spirit´s power or presence because
He likes to stay in the background. My question: If that is true,
why did Jesus teach so much about the Holy Spirit? And why is
the Spirit´s powerful work so clearly highlighted in the book of
Acts and the epistles? It´s true that the Spirit wants all the credit
to go to Jesus, but we are making a huge mistake if we ignore
the Spirit or limit His power. The church today needs God´s power
like never before.

4. There is a difference between biblical correction and judgmentalism.
Anyone who reads this column knows I speak out regularly about
whacky practices in our movement-from prosperity doctrines to
necromancy to adulterous pastors who say God told them to divorce
one wife so they could marry another. I believe we must address
sin in the camp. But there is a difference between confronting
specific sins and condemning a whole movement to hell. John
MacArthur´s book has crossed that line.

5. We should love MacArthur anyway. Strange Fire lists numerous
ways charismatics are misusing or abusing the Holy Spirit, in
MacArthur´s view. But he forgets to mention that one of the
important works of the Holy Spirit is to unify and connect the
Christian community in deep fellowship. The New Testament
urges us to “preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”
(Eph. 4:3, NASB), and we are also told that love is part of the
fruit of the Holy Spirit. But Strange Fire was not written out of a
heart of love.

Still, there is no need to retaliate against MacArthur. He is our
brother because we all believe in and worship the same Savior.
The best thing we can do in response to this extremely unkind
book is to love our brother in spite of his unfortunate bias against us.

-Original Source-

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/18919

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 25th, 2013 at 9:37 am.

170 comments

170 Replies

  1. Mike Young Oct 25th 2013

    Thank you for the measured and Spirit-led response to John MacArthur and his book, Strange Fire.

    I have read other sites that treat him disrespectfully and commentors who behave much worse than they percieved MacArthur toward them.

    “Christians” acting hateful toward one-another.

    You cannot be ONE if you do not behave like ONE.

  2. Vigilance Oct 25th 2013

    Re: “MacArthur, who is 74, urges evangelical Christians to engage in
    a “collective war” to stop the spread of the charismatic movement,”

    ~ This is sad in the fact that the challenges of this day certainly do require a vigilance to the enemies tactics and a putting-on of war gear, the whole armor of God. But the enemy is not the Church as so many Christians become deceived believing so. Let us not believe John MacArthur is the enemy either. Let us keep our eyes on our Lord and pray for Christians to see how the true enemy deceives by getting us to battle each other. We are well advised to pray for a purging of our faith to see as He sees, and faithfully run the race set before us. Blessings!

  3. Paul Crier Oct 25th 2013

    Excellent response from Lee O’Grady. It really grieves me that a man who I truly respect and admire, a gifted teacher and uncompromising Man of God, namely Paul Washer, holds men like John MacArthur in such high esteem. It saddens me too that gifted and eloquent men like Mr MacArthur have such a zealous cessationist stance. One can only imagine what a real blessing they would be to the whole Church should they embrace the Workings of the Holy Spirit today and be Baptized with the Spirit.

  4. This is nothing more than ecclesiastical pot stirring.
    Romans 3:4
    4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:“So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
    I wish I had had a nickle for every person who spoke ill against me. I just keep on keeping on – He that winneth souls is wise.
    Let it go.
    Doug

  5. Andrew Oct 25th 2013

    Paul – well said.

    Blessings,

    Andrew

  6. Vigilance Oct 25th 2013

    @Doug, Your post reminded me of a scripture.. :) Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

    @Paul, re: One can only imagine what a real blessing they would be to the whole Church should they embrace the Workings of the Holy Spirit today and be Baptized with the Spirit.

    In this day, there is such a distortion of the HS in extreme and unscriptural manifestations, that some people tend to make an equally extreme leaning away in an effort to balance the imbalance. Yes, it is ashame this is so! Good point, Brother!

  7. MacArthur says because we follow the Words of the Bible we are worshipping a “Golden Calf”??? Yet He believes that God created people with no chance of ever receiving Eternal Life? Who’s following the REAL God afterall? MacArthur doesn’t believe in the central tenant of the Gospel , John 316 For God so loved the WORLD that he have His only Son that WHOSEVER believes in Him would not perish but receive Eternal Life. How can two walk together unless they agree ! This is God 101!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  8. To imply that one set of beliefs/doctrines is error free and another not has always struck me as funny … so unbiblical. In fact the bible gives evidence of error amongst the greatest apostles. So I have error, you have error , etc. etc. is truth. Or “I see through a glass darkly”.

  9. If I have to stand alone, though I know I will not, I will on the stand of the 1. The Holy Spirit whom I have received audible directions and guidance from, and even visited me at one time while in the office, working and worshiping 2. God speaks to peole, because He has spoken audibly, and in my spirit many a times, I fail to count. 3. Healing – He just healed my husband completely. If there was no one else on earth believing in all these, I would be ready to die for these facts. God is God and cannot be limited in His ways. Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to him to understand these truths.

  10. Gordon Neil Oct 25th 2013

    John has a point! So many what is called Christmadics and Pennycostals have gone over the Edge or on the Edge of being defeated.

    The Church World-As-Usual are seen in the unseen carrying flags of RED (Religiously of Extreme Danger). Some of their own WARN others ………..many falling away. The Romans 8 Church, the Galatians 5 Church follows only One Authority of God, not a bunch of stiff necks that actually resist the Holy Spirit of God …the minds are in the Madness of the Devil ………..and they enjoy as The World Turns. Witchcraft in the name of Jesus trying for the Show. Not only that, they will be joining ranks trying to hold the line with other denominations. The Tender Traps are trying to crush the innocent in the middle ….a military tactic to steal, kill and destroy.

  11. CALVINISM – Please don’t think that MacArthur represents Calvinists. He does not. Many Charismatic believers are Calvinists, particularly in the UK.

  12. Gary Gorham Oct 25th 2013

    Having a form of godliness but denying the power there of, Because they did not love the truth God will send them a deluding influence. But when He, the Spirit of truth,comes He will guide you into all truth.You denounce the gospel of nice and then proceed to embrace it not because you embrace that all who name the name of Jesus are one but because of the idolatry of ministry.

  13. 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I KNOW IN PART; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    1Co 13:9 For we KNOW IN PART, and we prophesy in part.
    1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye HATH NOT SEEN, nor EAR HEARD neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
    Job 11:7 ¶ Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
    Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
    Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but HOW LITTLE A PORTION is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
    Ps 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us–ward: THEY CANNOT BE RECKONED up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
    Ps 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I CANNOT ATTAIN UNTO IT.

    And then we have a right to say we have understood the totality of God on any subject?????
    We are given certain things to reject and there ARE specific truths that stand in all understandings, but to think we understand even one bible doctrine TOTALY, is not scriptural.

    Is it scriptural to say that the members of Christ’s body do not have what it’s Head has? Is Christ, as Head, like a quadraplegic who cannot use His body as He did while on earth?.

    It is not about our power or authority, it is about His. That is the issue that MacArthur does not see. So which is the  “deadly virus,” a “deviant mutation of the truth” and a “Trojan horse”???

    To deny the present power and authority of Christ seems as bad as the misrepresentation of the Spirit by those in the flesh or the demonic (as IS happening in charimania). Both are WICKED

  14. Christ described the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13).

    Christ clearly states, “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” (John 16:13 NKJV)

    What does it say about John MarArthur when he rejects a large portion of the Truth presented in the New Testament?

    Furthermore, Christ comes out quite strongly concerning what John MacArthur is doing. “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him” (Luke 12:10 NASB). This is spoken in the context of the “fundamentalists” of Christ’s day attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to demonic forces.

    Where does that put John MacArthur, who attributes the works of the Holy Spirit to demonic forces?

    Although I have listened to John MarArthur on the radio quite a bit over the years and own several of his books, I fear for him because of the position he has taken in attributing the workings of the Holy Spirit to demonic forces – and vilifying true modern-day disciples of Christ.

    Additionally, in the context of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Luke 12), Christ also stated that the Holy Spirit will speak quite clearly to those who are truly disciples of Christ: “Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.” )Luke 12:11-12 NKJV).

    It appears that while John MacArthur intellectually knows much of Biblical doctrine, he has not nor will he allow himself to be taught by the Holy Spirit.

    Since believers are commanded by Christ to judge those claiming to be prophets (those who speak forth God’s Word) to be tested by looking at their fruit; and since Mr. MacArthur’s fruit includes published blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and a vilifying of those who are led by the Spirit; then I suggest we do as the Scriptures direct us to do.

    Let us “purge out the old leaven,” not having any fellowship with him, and turn him over “to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,” that he “learn not to blaspheme” (1 Corinthians 5; 1 Timothy 1:20).

  15. Vince Cedrone Oct 25th 2013

    For many years, I have not sensed an anointing on John, I sense a lot of head knowledge, but no spirit power. This is probably why I do not sense any power when he speaks. We are to still pray that God will open his eyes. For John to ignore super natural healings, and to say that God did not heal them and especially in many cases when doctors said that it was God because it was impossible for that person to live tells us that he is deceived.

  16. watchful Oct 25th 2013

    Someone said let God be true and every man a liar – amen, that’s so exactly right. We’re all so wise aren’t we………wise in our own conceits. oh won’t you come and lead us Lord Jesus?….for there is no one else worthy, no not one.

    Rom 3:3-12

    “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

    God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

    God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

    And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

    What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ”

    His wisdom is too wonderful for words! Why don’t we just sit at nobody’s feet but His!

  17. I was saved and grew up as a Christian in a charismatic church. I loved the exuberance of worship and freedom from stiffness after spending much of my life in a mainstream church. But over time I became uncomfortable with many of the ongoing practices…the variety of body gyrations and facial tics, the rock and roll music with loud beating drums, the insistence that my diabetes was due to sin, laying hands even on inanimate objects, the constant casting out of demons, a total emphasis on things supernatural, and yes, too much conversation with the HS when he is the conduit, not the objective. If you didn’t participate in such things, you weren’t very spiritual, and the more you did, the more mature in the Lord you were perceived to be. The things that were chalked up to Jesus, I did not recognize as the Jesus I knew in the Bible. Then I ran across a copy of John MacArthur’s Charismatic Chaos, and he put to words what I had been feeling in my spirit was not right. And I think he is correct, I think he is very scriptural, and I think the whole charismatic movement started off-base and continues off-base. I think he speaks the truth with love. When we pursue signs and wonders, the devil will oblige. When we pursue healings, the devil will oblige. When we pursue tongues, the devil will oblige. But when we pursue Jesus, our eyes are on Him and what we can do for him, not what He can do for us. I believe that the charismatic movement is the falling away spoken about in scripture, with our eyes way off track from the simplicity of faith in Christ.

  18. Food for Thought: We can’t afford to be luke warm anymore!
    Scriptures that came to mind whilst reading the article: Applicable?? Surely, a line needs to be drawn . . . isn’t it a very fine line between truth and deception?
    Who are we going to offend? Almighty GOD, or man?
    What J MacArthur is saying ‘publicly’ [book] is very serious . . . It makes no difference who we are when we preach/teach wrong doctrine, [false accusations] the same discipline applies, with no favouritism . . .
    How can one be called a ‘gifted’ preacher if this is not done in the love of God, and the teaching is inaccurately portrayed and/or incorrect/wrong, according to Scripture?
    How can one be an “‘uncompromising’ man of God” if he/she holds someone with wrong doctrine, in high esteem? [according to the above article]
    People who taught ‘false’ doctrine, [in the Bible] were named to warn Christians to stay away from them . . .
    We have to believe the whole Bible, not just parts of it, even that which we don’t fully understand, or necessarily like.

    Hebrews 12: 5-6, 9+, (NKJV)
    5) And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
    “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    6) For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
    9) Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

    1 Corinthians 13:1-3, (NKJV) “The Greatest Gift”
    1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

    1 Corinthians 2:3-5, (NKJV)
    3) I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4) And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5) that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    2 Timothy 3:5, (NKJV) 5) . . . having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

    2 Corinthians 11:3-5, (NKJV)
    3) But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4) For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

    Galatians 1: 6-9, (NKJV) “Only One Gospel”
    6) I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7) which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9) As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

  19. DonaldN Oct 25th 2013

    The pharisees ascribed Jesus’ power to beelzebub.
    A very dangerous accusation.

  20. DonaldN Oct 25th 2013

    Seeing MacArthur’s teaching, we can just consider him a Pharisee.

  21. Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    Jesus did not waste time refuting their doctrines.
    He said to let them alone.

  22. Thanks Andrew for the post.
    I see this (following statement) as the solution for our fractured body.
    I hope and believe that we will indeed have the real “teachers” emerge along with the other equipping gifts and that their words are “confirmed” with true verifiable, undeniable, love centered, Jesus Glorifying, signs and wonders. We will also see judgement in our house as Gods chosen leaders rise up. They will be servants of all, and loving like Jesus. This is coming!

  23. Brad… Amen
    Jer 23:4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.

  24. Gary Gorham Oct 25th 2013

    You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me. This man worships at the tree of death of which God says that this carnal mind cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit. So how is it that you who claim to be of the Spirit seek acceptance for this man with no call for repentance, your holy grail. We have not become conformed into the image of His Son nor do we know how to. First let us acknowledge our guilt and then seek His face. However He says in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me. Set a side your idols including your bronze serpent for a season and make sure of your calling. The reason that this man is so popular is that for 400 years the voice of God has not been heard because we replaces the Spirit with a book.

  25. Deborah Oct 25th 2013

    First of all Jesus is our only Teacher. Biblically is says that God taught Jesus (He only did what He saw His Father do) and Jesus teaches us (He is the Word). No seminary preacher can teach anyone as they are taught by man. Jesus claims Himself to be the Teacher and is called Teacher by different people in Scripture. He is the only one who can teach us.

    It doesn’t matter that Mr. MacArthur is a Calvinist or that your are charismatic or Pentecostal or whatever – religion is religion (some truth mixed with lies of man-made doctrine that are not biblical) not total truth (the BIble).

    God does speak to us today and does so in many different ways whether one believes it or not. One sure way He speaks to us is throught His Word (as He is the Word – John 1:1).

    All religions are a “deadly virus” which Jesus tells all to come out of (in Rev. 18:4). One is to only be in the truth of His Word.

    There is no such thing as a healthy church unless you belong to the true church of Jesus Christ, free of all religion (leaven of the Pharisees), and standing only on the truth of His Word. Are not the gates of Hades prevailing against the institutional churches today? Indeed they are and in great numbers. And does God not say that the gates of Hades would not prevail againt His church? Something doesn’t add up. Are they then the real church of Jesus Christ?

    Let me put it this way – If one was beginning a new relationship, would you want your families and friends to go with the two of you wherever you go? I wouldn’t think so. You would want time alone to get to know each other. That’s the same with Jesus. He wants an intimate relationship with each and everyone of us and we don’t need people around us or a building to do that . When we are born again, we are supposed to become His temple, His church and we are to go into our prayer closets (a quiet place) to become intimate with Him in relationship (talking with Him which some call prayer) and get to know each other as well as thru His Word. All this church business began at Babel where man tried to build his way to heaven and look how that turned out. Then there’s Solomon who thought he was to build a house for God. But God didn’task him to. David misunderstood and thought God meant Solomon was to build it but he missed the fact that God said after David was dead and gone adn that it was an everlasting temple (well Solomon lost the Kingdom, so it wasn’t everlasting). He was speaking prophetically about Jesus , the everlasting Temple (as stated in Rev. God and the Lamb are the temple) and is building those who are born again as His church – those born again of His Spirit.

    God would never tell anyone to break their marriage covenant, a covenant that is made before Him and witnesses (God does not break covenant). Has man not broken his marriage covenant with God? We as man left the truth (God/Jesus) for the lies (of Satan, called religion – the 1st belief system when Eve believed the serpent over God back in the Garden. God’s truth never changes (He is the same yesterday, today and forever). He means what He says and says what He means. It’s man that changes what God says and means.

    Sin is sin and yes, we as believers in Jesus Christ for our salvation need to confront it whenever it arises its ugly head. Paul did exactly that. He even took issue with the apostles at times.

    Do you really believe that we all believe in and worship the same God? That is one of the biggest lies of Satan yet!!!! Allah is certainly not the same god as the One true God. Allah is a pagan god who takes life as opposed to giving it and never should be given equal footing with the One true God of this land (who they are trying to get rid of today).

  26. Thank you for the information. It is helpful to know. It saddens me to learn of such error from a brother in Christ. I have always heard something that vexed me whenever i have listened to his radio sermons. We are to love him and pray for him, however; and as Chraismatic/pentacostals we are to present the Spirit of Christ to him. It also brings to mind something I have seen even in the generals of old. Sometimes, with age, can come senility and distortion of thought processes. For whatever reason, they often can “miss it”. There must be accountability and we can’t put anyone on a pedestal so high that we fail to discern and fear to address serious deviation from truth to error. (We witnessed this with the fiasco of Todd Bently) I thank God for Lee Grady’s discerning and caring for the Body of Christ enough to inform, expose and confront error in love.

  27. This is such sad stuff. There are things I like about John MacArthur, although I do not follow him and only hear him very occasionally on the radio. And it’s very sad that he does not believe in healing because without being either a charismatic or a pentecostal, I have received healing from many afflictions, both instantaneously and over time (they were all incurable), I’ve seen miracles, and I’ve seen God move mountains. I’m glad I don’t have to prove that to anyone. It just is what it is. We live in crazy days and the Devil is doing a nasty work in the church.

  28. A significant issue in christianity with its roots in roman catholicism and the infallibility of the pope, is that there is a spirit that excuses leadership that has gifts but not character. The history of catholicism has popes who were freemasons etc. yet the people were taught that they had the office of the pope (leader in christianity) and it was divine and should not be questioned. We see the same thing where people will condemn those who test the spirit of a “leader” (as we were commanded by the Lord to do in Matthew 7 and 1John 4), as coming against the Lord’s anointed. The unwavering obedience to disobedient leaders is not in the Heart of the Lord, as we see in the prophets where He tells His people that they will fall will the errant leaders, if they follow them.

    In Judaism, they teach that the person who follows such leaders harm themselves spiritually, even if those leaders are gifted. The same thought is seen in the book of Jude where Jude describes how the assembly got corrupted by dishonest preachers creeping in without being detected.

    The Heart of the Lord manifested in the Tanakh (the Torah, writings and prophets) regarding leaders who are corrupt and lead people away from Him was that they should be killed.

    So all “preachers” or “teachers” charismatic or like McArthur should never be permitted to be in any position of leadership. The enemy has taken control of many congregations by tolerance of the unclean and un-Holy; the reason for the deception and lack of Kingdom living by many of those who claim to be in the Family of the Lord.

    People like Billy Graham and McArthur who discourage people to seek the Lord and His Word and the Gifts of the Lord (even if not directly), would have been killed under the Law (Judaism). We have to see through the eyes of the Lord and not the religion of christianity. If the Lord is the Head and we claim to be on Him and in His Body, we should view false teachers (however gifted or talented) as an abomination just as the Lord does.

    The spiritual principle is that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. When the unclean touches even a small part of the clean the whole is unclean. A strategy of the enemy has been to use this principle to keep people in bondage to him and his “leaders.” Under the Law (an indicator of the Lord’s Heart on issues, seen by us now in the Spirit) there was strict separation of the unclean from the clean. It is an important lesson to us. There should not be the slightest tolerance for the unclean and un-Holy.

    Think about it, how many assemblies that believe in speaking in Other Tongues as the Lord speaking through people to establish His Will on the earth (Romans 8), would reject or not welcome a Billy Graham if he showed up in their congregation?

  29. I have to agree more with Gwenn, charasmania has caused a distorted pursuit of God, focusing too much on gifts, manifestations, miracles, and the flesh, along with much more emphasis bring toward the Spirit than on Jesus.

    I think MacArthur went a little far with some of his comments, but at same time makes really good points.

    With the mountain of bad doctrine, bad practices and focusing too much on the physical , the charasmania movement has done far more damage than good, just my opinion and based on what I have experienced first hand

  30. A CORRECTED VERSION:

    A significant issue in christianity with its roots in roman catholicism and the infallibility of the pope, is that there is a spirit that excuses leadership that has gifts but not character. The history of catholicism has popes who were freemasons etc. yet the people were taught that they had the office of the pope (leader in christianity) and it was divine and should not be questioned. We see the same thing where people will condemn those who test the spirit of a “leader” (as we were commanded by the Lord to do in Matthew 7 and 1John 4), as coming against the Lord’s anointed. The unwavering obedience to disobedient leaders is not in the Heart of the Lord, as we see in the prophets where He tells His people that they will fall with the errant leaders, if they follow them.

    In Judaism, they teach that the person who follows such leaders harm themselves spiritually, even if those leaders are gifted. The same thought is seen in the book of Jude where Jude describes how the assembly got corrupted by dishonest preachers creeping in without being detected.

    The Heart of the Lord manifested in the Tanakh (the Torah, writings and prophets) regarding leaders who are corrupt and lead people away from Him was that they should be killed.

    So all corrupt “preachers” or “teachers” charismatic or like McArthur should never be permitted to be in any position of leadership. The enemy has taken control of many congregations by tolerance of the unclean and un-Holy; the reason for the deception and lack of Kingdom living by many of those who claim to be in the Family of the Lord.

    People like Billy Graham and McArthur who discourage people to seek the Lord and His Word and the Gifts of the Lord (even if not directly), would have been killed under the Law (Judaism). We have to see through the eyes of the Lord and not the religion of christianity. If the Lord is the Head and we claim to be on Him and in His Body, we should view false teachers (however gifted or talented) as an abomination just as the Lord does.

    The spiritual principle is that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. When the unclean touches even a small part of the clean the whole is unclean. A strategy of the enemy has been to use this principle to keep people in bondage to him and his “leaders.” Under the Law (an indicator of the Lord’s Heart on issues, seen by us now in the Spirit) there was strict separation of the unclean from the clean. It is an important lesson to us. There should not be the slightest tolerance for the unclean and un-Holy.

    Think about it, how many assemblies that believe in speaking in Other Tongues as the Lord speaking through people to establish His Will on the earth (Romans 8), would reject or not welcome a Billy Graham if he showed up in their congregation?

  31. Thank you Andrew for this article. and the brotherly way in which you handled it. The Lord will honor you
    I have Jon Mac Arthurs’ study bible/ commentary and while it is ” learned in content” it seems to be lifeless. Now I think I know why this is so.. How sad that much learning has made him” sad”
    One day we will see the One who is the way the truth and the life.
    Forward in faith friends
    <

  32. I do not agree with the article that states McArthur is our brother in the Lord. He is at this time not of the Body of the Lord as he does not manifest the Fruits of the Lord. The Lord is the Vine and those in Him are the branches and they will bear the Fruits of the Vine. See Matthew 7, John 15. If we apply these standards can we honestly say that the spirit of many big name preachers is of the Lord.

    Every human being is made in the Image of God – Genesis 1:26-27, so you could have people who are gifted outside the “church.” Those who are of the Lord’s Body will manifest His Life in the use and operation of those Gifts or ministries. Before I knew the Lord, I had ACCURATE words of knowledge and prophesy from un-Holy people who boldly claimed pagan spirits or demons as their source of information.

    Let us walk and focus on the Truth, and not christianese.

  33. First of all, I would like to say that much of what McArthur writes is obviously correct. I do believe that most of the Charismatic sect is a Trojan horse, gifted to and and greedily accepted by the Pentecostals The Charismatics do have an obsession with health and wealth and miracles and time and time again it overshadows Jesus.I also agree that the majority worship a golden calf, erected by modern men in the shadow of Jannes and Jambres.

    Yet MaCarthur exposes himself in his own zeal as the opposite end of the Trojan horse. These are the men who have spied out our liberty and have come down to bring us into bondage, those whom the Lord delivered from the Law. True men and woman of God would cry ” God forbid,” in response to the charge that we have created a license to sin as we walk in the liberty and the freedom of the Spirit.

    The charge against those who believe in the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit is that they are obsessed with gifts and in the defending of them. It is not the defending of ” gifts,’ it is the defending of the Scriptures that teach us about the gifts. Are men’s opinions and intellect to over-rule the written word of God? How many pages and chapters must be thrown out so that the false, and may I add, deadly and devilish doctrine that the gifts have ceased can be justified?( who else but the devil himself could gain by this)

    God lays down in His word the gifts that we need to operate a healthy Body, and men come along and say that we do not need the gifts to operate a healthy Body. Who should one believe, the Word of God or men? Not a single Scripture even suggests that there would come a time on this earth where the gifts would cease. One would have to wrestle a text from 1 Cor 13 out of context to come up with the pretext that now exists within certain sects of Christianity. The pride of man says that we can do it ourselves, we do not need to follow the instructions of Scripture. The humble man will acknowledge that without God and His leading, unless the Lord builds the house, then we can do nothing and we labor in vain…………bro Frank

  34. There are ONLY TWO spirits in creation. The Holy Spirit and the un-Holy Spirit. Both are of God – see Isaiah 45:7 but they are both NOT of Father. The dimension of God that is LIGHT and LIFE is of the Father.

    All things (both Holy and un-Holy) exist by God through Moshiach (Jesus) – Colossians 1:15-17.

    The un-Holy is present in ALL religion, because religion seeks not the Spirit of Father and do not Know Him as the Son Knows Him. The Holy is ONLY in Family and Relationship with Father. See 2Corinthians 5, John 17, 1John 4:17, Phil 2:5-6.

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God – Romans 8:14, and He alone is their Teacher and Father – Matthew 23:8-10. So even if we hear a gifted man or woman speak, we should listen to Father and test their spirit, to find out if they are of Him. See 1John 4. If we find they are not of Him we are to resist them and then the devil will flee from us. James 4.

    If people do not resist the devil, through ignorance or otherwise (especially the “christian doctrine of love” which is not of the Truth), the devil will stay with them. And, he comes to kill, steal and destroy.

    Christianese will teach you when the devil is persecuting you for your ignorance that you are suffering for your faith. The Lord says, “My People suffer for lack of knowledge.” see Hosea 4:6.

  35. There is a fine line sometimes between discernment and being the accuser of the brethren. I remember Carter Conlon once said, “Have discernment but with the heart of God. Because of Mac Arthur’s latest ranting against Pentecostal (I’m more old line Pentecostal than Charismatic) and the Charismatics, I’ve had people come on my Facebook page and attack me only because I’m Pentecostal. They didn’t know me anything else about me but that I’m Pentecostal. They accused me of demonic things and slandered me so bad, not because of anything I said or done but because of who I am. This is discrimination and judgmental. I felt the wicked spirit in one person. He was very vicious. I fear that this many unleash persecution against the Pentecostal and Charismatics. I know all Calvinists are not alike but if they lose their love for the brethren, they have a history of being very dangerous. At times they were part of burning witches, hanging people and many such things when someone disagreed in doctrine. Even John Calvin himself caused the death of a few in Geneva Switzerland. I don’t want to accuse anyone but one can read church history and find these things out. So he does not accept us as brethren. Sad. There is no place in the bible that says the gifts cease until that which is perfect has come and look around us, there is nothing perfect yet. Believers have not been perfected, Christ has not yet come. That which is perfect has not yet come. They believe that to be the complete bible but that cannot be. It takes the gift of knowledge and wisdom to understand the bible.

  36. Clare Watts Oct 25th 2013

    I have read one of MacArthur’s books – well, part of it, because when I got to the bit where he tells you that if somebody tells you that God still heals people they are lying, I couldn’t read any more. It saddens me deeply that he has never stopped to ask himself WHY he has such an almost fanatical hatred of those who believe in the power and baptism of the Spirit. I am sure that if he did, he would straight away think of those very visible and well-known preachers who have given it a bad report. He is like the clock pendulum that has swung from one extreme to the other, and now Satan is filling him with vitriol that I truly believe that will be harmful to him in the long run. Jesus made it clear that we will be held responsible for any harm we do to others of the body of Christ…..
    Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.” (Luke 17:1-2)
    IF HIS CLAIMS were to be backed and verified by Scripture it would be a different thing, but he doesn’t, which makes his claims not only not scriptural, but his OWN PERSONAL opinion. The problem lies in the the high regard that he is held, and people hang on his words and his teachings as being from the heart of God…..
    He is a Calvinist. The Calvinists have been there and done that before. They have burned and killed those who did not agree with them, and I sense the same scenario again. They have a very dark history of killing those Spirit filled Christians who walked a different path than theirs, thinking they were “doing God a favor”. I got kicked out of a church many years ago that had a Calvinist background, simply because I questioned their teaching about the love of God not lining up with what the Bible said. I walked in a wilderness of despair for 21 long years before I found the truth of God’s love. Jesus said, “If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” (Luke 11:11-13) John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Luke 3:16)…..and to those who believe, the words of John punctuated by the promise of Jesus, He has fulfilled His promise to ALL who have sought to be filled with Him! All glory and praise to our God! Thank You, Father, thank You, Jesus and thank You, Holy Spirit!

  37. I’m sure most all believers would agree that the Church in America is in a MESS. We must ask the question who Lead it into this mess? The Truth is if any organization be it Christian or secular is having problems the reason is always the same, “Leadership”. Pastor Mac Arthur’s been a Christian Leader for several years and is responsible (to some degree) of the Christian Church getting into this mess. Considering his age He is most likely feeling his influence and power slipping away and is trying to hold onto it. What he is doing is in reality sin.

  38. Bruce Baker Oct 25th 2013

    I was born again in Benny Hinn’s church 25+ years ago. 20+ years ago, I heard John McArthur on the radio speaking against the Holy Spirit for 2 weeks. After this I wrote him off and never listened to him again.

    I had a friend who died a few years ago who was raised Baptist, and was a Baptist preacher for about 20 years. He told me that one Tuesday he preached against speaking in tongues. On Friday that week, he was baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. He said after the Holy Spirit came inside of him, then he understand what the baptism in the Holy Spirit was all about. John McArthur is doing much damage to the body of Christ with his teaching. May God have mercy on his soul.

    Ask youself this question: Does God want you speaking in tongues or does satan want you speaking in tongues? Does God want you doing miracles or does satan want you doing miracles? The answers are obvious.

  39. Pastor Wayne says it well as do most of the comments. So sorry that this man is grieving the Holy Spirit. God is the same yesterday, today and forever – Yes, the Spirit is Truth. We are to walk in the Truth. He obviously does not believe the writings of Paul either. This man needs to learn what Truth is. Only by the Holy Spirit are we able to know the Truth so I wonder if this man even knows what Truth really is.

  40. Kim Smith Oct 25th 2013

    I am really saddened about this, Satan is so crafty instead of fighting him and the kingdom of darkness it is sad to see a man who has so much Godly influence using his time to promote division and strife in the body of Christ. I guess he has not read the New Testament where these things were normally (as they should be) when the New Testament church was in formation. I will keep this brother in prayer!

  41. Nathan Oct 25th 2013

    Strange Fire hasnt been released yet – not until Novemeber 12. How can you comment on what is in it? In his conference he does not say that all involved with the charismatic movement are unsaved. He says that many are saved but mislead in this area. I, on the other had, not really of the charismatic persuasion, have been told by charismatics that I am unsaved since I have not spoken in tongues.

  42. Carina Oct 25th 2013

    Having been a part of the Pentecostal movement for 10 years, and having seen so many of the excesses and blatantly heretic doctrines held in high esteem by so many pastors (unlike Grady, I don’t think unhealthy Charismatic churches are the minority), I have to admit Mac Arthur has a point. No, I disagree with his conclusions, and I would need to study the history of the origins of the Pentecostal movement to have an opinion as to whether the movement indeed was on the wrong track to begin with, or if it derailed later. But on the whole I agree that wide segments of the Charismatic movement are akin to the perverse and adulterous generation demanding a sign from Jesus.
    And I also believe that wide segments of the non-Charismatic movement are like the Greeks, trying to rationalize everything and fit everything into their concepts, with their human, natural, unregenerate mind.
    Where’s the Holy Spirit in all of this? Neither in Charismania (and when I use that term, I don’t mean the movement as a whole but its perversion) nor in the Ivory Tower of Intellectual Theologians.
    It’s very sad that the blasphemies found in the Charismatic camp provide ammo for Cessassionists to throw the baby with the bath water. Sad, but understandable. Sad that many Charismatics will resort to personal attacks to defend their own brand of Religion. Because that’s what this is all about. Organized Religion of one brand competing against Organized Religion of another brand.
    To both sides I would say, Seek Christ’s preeminence in all things (not empty theology, not doctrine, not spiritual experience per se, but the Person of Christ). Seek to have Him increase in you and your own self decrease. Read the Bible, the Written Word, as a way to encounter the Living Word. Seek to have His Kingdom come, His Will be done, first in your own life. Seek have the true Holy Spirit identify and then to remove all dirt from your eyes before you go pointing at other believers’.
    True Faith, true Life is Christ, not ANY denomination. If we truly seek Christ, His TRANSFORMING power will be evident in our lives, and that power will attract others to Him.

  43. Randy Ailie Oct 25th 2013

    Pastor Wayne, well said earlier. Lee, thank you for speaking out elegantly on this subject. I book of proper and undistorted scripture by overwhelming abundance speaks directly against what John M. stands against. I have been speaking out directly against his “blasphemous” teaching for close to 35 years now. As Wayne properly saw calling the direct works of the Holy Spirit that of a demonic spirit. Although we do see such activity directly in the more errant radical fringes of the charismatic movement that are sadly prevalent.

    I was told that this direct attack against the spirit of Jesus many years ago, was the preface of Satans attack against the last great outpouring the Lord has been promising pretty much my entire lifetime in the ministry. If Satan cannot stop this from happening, he will attack it viciously. And find willing men who are deceived to serve him in this. Men in love with “the spirit of religion”. Which is also deeply demonic. Hidden behind this is a deep arrogance, hate, all as the fruit of one of the worst, Pride. The very leaders of Jesus day also spoke directly against him in exactly the same manner. Well meaning religious leaders who hadn’t a real clue. The motives behind this are numerous and deeply cancerous.

    Be encouraged everyone. This is just a sign that the day of what the Lord calls “the last great harvest of the gentiles” is even a day closer! One in which he himself has promised an outpouring of such power that the world has never seen before. And consider this no more than a bump in that road. This isn’t about us! But to understand that a great and final harvest is coming. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit has never been about us. But about drawing us closer to Jesus. Putting gas in our tanks to have the power to obey, and serve him. Be very very thankful he has opened the eyes of your heart to receive this. And ask yourself. What are you doing instead of complaining about the people who persecute you? Jesus told us it would happen! Instead, how are you using his incredible intimate gifts to serve him! As an example to not only his church, but to those around you. Filled with his power, humility, and his love. To walk in his image. His holiness.

  44. Sue Walsh Oct 25th 2013

    Balance, that is what it is about. We are seeing the Holy One of Israel gradually reel in the charasmaniacs on the one hand and the Torah terrorists on the other. He divorced both because they embraced and still do embrace pagan practice. We are truly blessed that His son Yeshua died so that the divorced and increasingly repentant bride can remarry. It is happening because he is coming soon. We will soon join him in the bridal chamber. HallelYah!

  45. The Holy Spirit calls people to holiness. That is not seen in the so-called moves of the Spirit in my part of the world. We have a bunch of wicked ungodly people “speaking in tongues”, witnessing so-called miracles, dancing around indulging in all kinds of experientialism but outside of their so-called Holy Spirit experiences the fruit of their life is bad. I can see from scripture that John MacArthur’s assessment that *the Holy Spirit is no longer active and working in our lives* is incorrect. I also know experientially that he is incorrect though my experiences have no credence to me if they are not backed up by scripture (which they are). as MANY are deceived. But who can deny that the majority of what is out there, so it would seem in my neck of the woods at least, is a freak show circus act. These people don’t know God. They don’t fear God. They don’t strive to walk in holiness. So what spirit is that then? It’s not God. I started sharing the gospel with people almost immediately after I got saved (close to 7 years ago), so I’ve talked to tons of people – at the store, gas station, public events, walking down the streets, waiting at bus stops etc. So I’m very familiar with the beliefs of the people out there. I’m not just assuming. They tell me these things. So many wicked ungodly unrepentant people think they’re are saved because they speak in a tongue that they were told was the Holy Spirit. (on a side note there’s other’s that think they’re fine cuz they said a prayer – just as wicked of a deception)

  46. I hope I didn’t overstate anything. I want to speak in truth, not exaggerated unsubstantiated responses. It seems scary to me what’s going on in our area (Washington, U.S.).

  47. To be like Jesus is a song we sing and Jesus’ life on this earth was Spirit led, with signs and wonders following. He gave to the church the Promise of the Father ..which is the baptism in the Holy Spirit which would give us power to be witnesses unto Him….so we could do the works that Jesus did, which involved miracles and purity. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit. There is much work to be done because time is growing short. Jesus is coming soon.

  48. John Macarthur believes and teaches the ‘pre-trib rapture’ which is not biblical … this man and his cronnies put me back about 10 years in gaining the truth of God’s word ….He too believes that the Jews are God’s chosen and He still has a special plan for them.
    http://www.obadiahoutreach.org

  49. watchful Oct 25th 2013

    There is some truth in both camps………but also there are clearly very major problems in both camps…………so how can followers of Christ be joined with either of these, or any of the other myriad Christian camps, if we want to become pure and without mixture? This is why He has called out and separated His Bride, to cleanse her of all her defilements (mixture) and make her ready.

  50. Deirdre helms Oct 25th 2013

    We have to at least CONSIDER his point of view. I was devastated when I learned that even in Kathryn Kuhlman’s ministry there was not ONE medical record to prove anyone has been healed….This was a ministry that many had confidence in…The extreme immorality among those who “have the power” is nauseating……and it seems to draw those with a ‘alterior motive’…We need to be honest and EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THAT ALL THE POWER IS FOR TODAY.;….what we are seeing and have seen is NOT THAT POWER but an imposter…a counterfeit soo good because it has demonic power in it….Prophetic rooms fill up immediately to get a ‘reading’…..cause there are so many sheep lost because of the sickening perversion, immorality and greed of the PEOPLE OF POWER….I agree with him on the point that what we are seeing today DOES NOT exemplify anything…..

  51. Carl Emerson Oct 25th 2013

    Friends,

    Lee commented…

    “He doesn´t just write off fringe elements of our movement; he skewers the original founders of Pentecostalism and even goes after Baptist author Henry Blackaby for teaching that God can speak to people today….”

    If this is correct, then Mr Mac Arthur’s position is self defeating – by his own claim, God is not speaking to him…

    It is best then not to give the man too much attention, and unwittingly empower his cause…..

    It is human nature to construct a theology that explains the lack of power in one’s ministry, denominations have done this over the centuries.

    Can I ask – does Chuck Missler hold a similar position on the gifts?

    Lastly would a group of us commit to prayer and fasting for John? if Jesus were to enter into the world he has constructed there would be much rejoicing in heaven and on earth…

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  52. This is a very good article.

    I have a book written by John McArthur in which he attacks a number of Charismatic churches. In this book he tells out right lies about several charismatic churches that I am familiar with.

    Someone in a comment above, said; he is nothing but a Pharisee.

    Jesus made it even stronger:

    Luke 11:23
    He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

    GaryB

  53. PastorMark Oct 26th 2013

    I’ve been studying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Bible.

    I believe it is for today, Joel 2 says it is for the endtimes, Peter in Acts 2 confirmed that this is a promise for the last days. These are what the prophets of the Old Testament called the latter days, meaning the end of the last days.

    It seems to me that this should be prevalent and necessary part of the these last days.

    I’ve been praying and asking for this Baptism. How long does this usually take to happen?

  54. Along every road there are two ditches. The Church in America is in a mess, this is true. There are multitudes in both ditches, one side being cecationists and the other being Pentecostal/Charismatic. The truth is in the middle of the road.
    Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

  55. Randall Oct 26th 2013

    I did write a letter to Pastor John MacArthur and the church, sharing 4 true incidents where a supernatural speaking in tongues led to people being saved, since they heard the Gospel in their own native tongue, but the speaker did NOT know that language.

    We need to pray that John will seek truth, not his own understandings.

    I am saddened that Christianity is divided again, and presents a broken image to the world.

  56. dagazz Oct 26th 2013

    It’s interesting. I tried to buy a few of his books years ago. . .every time I took them off the shelf, God clearly told me; “NO!”
    I forgot about the first incident, then three years later picked up one of his books and heard the same inner check from God.

    This is an exert from one of my books that I thought was appropriate for this topic. It’s an angel talking to a person who is experiencing the reality of God’s heavenly kingdom. I’ve found the advice to be sound.

    “Many will scoff at the things you have seen and learned,” Elpis explained. “You must be wise in whom you share this with. Some have devoted themselves to the study of scripture, but haven’t yet experienced the knowledge and power of God in this way.
    “Beware of those who talk about the greatness of God, but discount the possibility of his doing great things. The Spirit and the Word are powerful, and many will know the truth, but others will choose not to believe. Continue to speak the truth in love, confident that God is with you.”

  57. A very interesting article: Surviving the Storms Ahead, Part 1; from the Academy of Light – A Vision for the End Times, website, as follows:

    http://www.theacademy.org.au/training/neville/Suviving%20the%20Storms.pdf

    Let’s not just hone in on Pentecostalism; Roman Catholicism is a highly dangerous, man-made, antichrist denominational system . . . made mention of in the aforementioned article here, sub-title, “Persecution from the False World Church”.

  58. Carl Emerson Oct 26th 2013

    Pastor Mark,

    It is good you are seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and it happens in His time.
    In my life it happened quite sovereignly in a church that did not believe in the gifts and was accompanied by a very deep repentance.
    If He had not told me a day later I would not have known what it was, although I knew I was permanently changed and had received a gift of discernment.
    I had some fluency in tongues before i was baptised in the Spirit so personally I am more likely to look at repentance rather than gifts as a confirming sign that one has received this important empowering for service.
    As it was with Jesus it is an anointing that comes upon you are remains for the rest of your life.
    John 1:33 records that the ‘resting on and remaining’ is the sign that John was looking for to recognise Him and to witness that he was seeing the very first Baptism in the Spirit. Other individuals received an anointing that did not remain.
    Blessings and Peace as you seek Him and the power to serve in His purpose.

    Carl Emerson.

  59. Tenney Singer Oct 26th 2013

    It’s a good thing the Holy Spirit didn’t listen to Mr. MacArthur’s cessational doctrine when I needed healing from cancer. God healed me totally, and it wasn’t in the first century AD! I’m not that old! :)

  60. Thank you Bro. Andrew for addressing this. I heard of this conference betore and Lee Grady explains how McArthur’s book seems to deny the working of the Holy Spirit.

    I am saddened by each point that was mentioned. If this McArther feels that people are pre-occupied with good health, at 74 years old, this man should be thankful to the Lord that he, at 74 can travel and be able to stand at a podium for hours preaching. There are many people who suffer daily with chronic pain, illness, and don’t have the ‘groupies’ and hanger-ons like he does, shuttling him from place to place, staying in grand hotels. The man should be ashamed at the unmerciful attitude he displays towards the sick. Does he think only in the context of the wealthy USA? Does he realize that there are christians around the globe that live in squalor and embrace the gospels and epistles and rejoice that Jesus, the Son of God, would be concerned about their pain and suffering, enough that He would heal them all and that He’d send His Spirit to us, His temples made of flesh to carry on His work? I find that these american speakers and those who make their ‘ministry’ into a marketable career are the ones who are the transgressors here.

  61. Dear brother Grady,

    Ordinarily I would not attempt to response to a thoughtful article such as the one that has been posted above. However, as an ex-Charismatic (of the Latter Rain/ Restoration movement) I feel compelled to respectfully address at least a few of the issues that you have raised in your justified response to the “Strange Fire” event. Much of what you say is perfectly reasonable in my view. However, there are a few things that may require further discussion.

    First of all, you are correct in denouncing MacArthur as a staunch and unrepentant Calvinist. That he is! As a non-Calvinist myself, I am also offended by his constant regurgitation of that abominable heresy. He has not only labeled Charismatics as “unorthodox” but he also attacks fellow cessationists who do not tow the Calvinistic party line. One could say that if Charismatism is as bad as he says it is, then he ought to apply the same rule to his five-point Calvinism, the stench of which is repugnant in the nostrils of Almighty God who wants ALL men to come to repentance, and to be saved.

    Having said that, MacArthur does raise some serious and valid issues that the Pente-Charismatic Movement has failed to deal with in a timely fashion. No one (not even MacArthur for that matter) disputes the reality or validity of genuine Biblically-attested manifestations of the Holy Spirit. In that respect, I believe that your over-simplified characterization of his cessationism is uncalled for. Much if not most of what takes place under the grand tent of the Pente-Charismatic Movement is fake or imitation at best. While I would not rush to attribute it all to the work of the devil as MacArthur evidently does, that doesn’t mean that there may not be another source for the purported “manifestations” wrongly attributed to the Holy Spirit, namely the flesh. That is precisely why Paul would have us follow the “better way” of Christian love, in his parenthetical statement toward the end of 1Corinthians 12. I am sorry brother Grady, but the Pente-Charismatic Movement IS guilty of neglecting this better way in favor of the showy and flashy “gifts” of the Spirit, and yes it is every bit the breading grown for most of the false teaching goes on the church today.

    As an ex-Charismatic, my personal position is that God certainly has all the power and the means at His disposal to do whatever He wants, with whomever He wants, at any time He wants, and wherever He wants. However, He is always perfectly consistent with His own revealed word and will never ever go against it. It is by this same word that both you and I will be judged on the great day of the Lord. So, if the supposed manifestation of the genuine gifts of the Spirit are in operation today, one would expect them to be practiced in exactly the same way that they were practiced in the first century. Sadly, that is not the case in most instances.

    Having said that, Christians are not left without the proper tools to solicit God’s divine intervention as He pleases according to His sovereign will. James says clearly that the effective prayer of the just avails much. I believe it! I have seen work time and time again in my own missionary experience! Does that mean that I have an apostolic gift of some sort? NO! In fact it means quite the opposite. In spite of the fact that there is no apostolic gift in action, God is still on His throne and prayer changes things.

  62. There’s a verse in the epistles where we are admonished to do all things in moderation. Self-control and sober-acting is a trait of the Spirit. I understand how some in the charismatic movement need to learn about self-control, always recognizing they represent Christ on earth.

    Just because some are out of order doesn’t mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I find it incredible that a cessationist wouldn’t be a tiny bit curious to know what it might be like to be filled with God’s Holy loving Spirit. They believe that the apostles and disciples went to the upper room to wait for the Promise. How could a believer shun that possible experience and empowerment? Are they not at all curious of what it must have been like to speak in an unknown language? Do they believe that demon possession isn’t around anymore too?

    Why would the Lord just empower the upper room gathering for show? Just to convince a few pilgrimers who were in Jerusalem for the weekend? If empowering and ministering in the gifts were necessary for the apostles, why would they not be necessary for ministers today? Are we so “arrived” that men like John McArthur feel we don’t need God’s spiritual gifts? The former rain and the latter rain. I can’t believe that christian men would want the latter rain to fall and we not be ready, prepared, equipped with the gifts special gifts of discernment, faith, miracles, healing, prophecy, etc. If sober-minded men would treat these gifts with utmost respect, then we would see works following. I agree with comments here that these men are feeling the lack of empowerment and may be compensating by attacking pentecostalism and charismatics.

  63. David Marsh Oct 26th 2013

    Pastor Mark,
    I agree with you about Jeol 2, that the subject of that chapter is the day of the Lord – the last of the last days and the plight of the last days Christians is set out clearly. After a sifting notice how the lord appeals to us to declare a fast – and then later the Spirit is poured out upon His own.

    Try googling;
    FASTING : ATOMIC POWER WITH GOD
    by Franklin Hall
    You will find this article fascinating. an article that is a little rough around the edges but nonetheless eye opening.

    You also might want to go back to the home page of this web site and click on BOOKS in the left column and read through GREAT HEALING REVIVALISTS and there you will see the importance of fasting (with prayer) in these evangelists lives.

    God bless you

    David Marsh

  64. They say if we really want to know a person’s motive, to follow the money. If there’s lots of money to be made in what they do or say or print, then we have to be discerning. I’m not talking about supporting a ministry that needs money and resources to keep running, but the type of ministries that put men on a pedestal who make a career out of ministry. If a teacher has a word from God for the church, should he be marketing it? If this man feels charismatic movement could produce a deviant mutation of the truth, or is a deadly virus, shouldn’t he be immediately posting his word or sending it out in a way that gets the maximum audience? Not every christian can afford to buy his book. Shouldn’t he correct, exhort, rebuke and admonish the church without charging people to enter into a gate to hear a word? Did any prophet ever charge a fee? This is intolerable. If the church is in dire error, why would this man present himself as a special guest speaker at an event (Strange Fire Conference) that only brings in a couple of hundred brethren to listen? Do they have some special status we don’t know about? I think the mutation is the concept of church today and how an important message is revealed to the church by the world’s methods. It should never be sold (IN A BOOK). If the man doesn’t believe in prophecy, then is his message just an opinion? He must think highly of himself if he believes men will attend his meetings and buy his CD’s and books just for an OPINION. He obviously does not believe in prophecy for today, so it is only reasonable that he is OK with just giving an opinion. Would that we all gave our opinions – there would be no order, just chaos. The reason the Lord gifts a prophet is precisely to warn the CHURCH.

    So what is it for Mr. Mcarthur? How does he and others like him want to be regarded in the Body of Christ? If he doesn’t believe in prophecy, then all he can do is minister by exhorting and teaching the Word (Scripture). However, from what we read, he’s seemingly wanting to be taken seriously as a prophet, yet doesn’t want to believe in prophecy.
    what a contradiction.

    I believe men like this feel they have an obligation to correct the church, but they refuse to give others their due when others prophesy. They call another man’s prophecy a deadly virus, but they can stand and speak and demand an audience’s attention and give their message. It’s contradictory hypocrisy.

  65. I don’t know how many times I have given John Mc Arthur’s teaching a chance to convince me of truth but almost each time, he’d shoot off tangent in his comprehension of the bible perspective.

    We do not deny that there is a great need to rid of apostasy in church but not at the cost of those who seek Christ truly.

  66. Spiritual balance and reason is needed in judgement of the Pentecostal Charismatic movement of which I am a part of, and make no apologies for.
    We can rightly assume that all folk who live in Sydney Australia are indeed Australian citizens but is folly to assume that all Australians are Sydney-siders. It is just as false to condemn the whole Church movement because some groups do not measure up to scripture. I am sad that so many folk who post here Andrew, have a sorry tale to tell about their experience in Pentecost – However if this this were not so, the Bible could be rightly attacked for we are warned in scripture and have example, in both OT and NT of this very condition existing, especially in the last days
    However Rom 8 33 – 39 declares “… whom he did predestine, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ that died, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
    Amen!

    The thief only counterfeits the genuine. I have never seen a $25 Australian.counterfeit or genuine note, nor will i ever, unless first, one is printed and issued legally, genuinely. God has issued the genuine Church with all His attributes
    Jesus said His sheep would hear His voice – not listen to the stranger, and that he would search out those that were lost. It is up to us to seek out and find, He said if we did we would.
    Pr Michael

  67. Pauline Richmond Oct 26th 2013

    Hi Andrew a long time since I posted a comment.Thank you for all the articles you post. I aways read them even though I do not comment this latest one left me feeling so sad. I have been Baptised in The Holy Spirit for over forty years now. The church I received it in had no excessive signs and wonders, did believe in healing and often people were healed. We were a minority, the tongues people. But God blessed it over a few years increasing the numbers quite quickly. Later the platform became, no tongues, no salvation. I am now in a Baptist church where the Holy Spirit is not given much thought to at all. People are afraid of tongues I believe because of the terrible manifestations supposedly from the Holy Spirit and they do not want to know. The Acts of the Holy Spirit in New Testament Christianity are ongoing aren’t they? I love the worship and freedom to lift up ones hand to the Lord, unfortunately contemporary church has turned into a rock concert with christian words to the music. Not all of course but we are surely not supposed to be emulating the music ,stage shows of the world. Yes young people, you need to drop some of this stuff, excessive girations jumping up and down. Where is the holiness. I love them all and understand it seems to be a way to get them into the church, but the bible says there is a way that seemeth right to a man , but what is the end, death. Let those of us who can pray that we all stand firm on the foundation of our faith , Repentance, Baptism in water and in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Much confusion here. People say they have received the gift but do not speak in tongues? I asked for it this is what happened to me. No devil gave it to me but our God. John MacArthur certainly seems to have changed his tune and this is sad as I also listened on radio. Over the years I have seen movements come and go but one thing remains for me, my personal experience and no one can take that away. Its a time for hanging on as we know many will try and take this wonderful experience down. So old people, young people, have balance oldies, dancing up and down look worse, oops I know it can be fun but I think we must ask more and more for discernment and lots of wisdom and above all love. Tough love sometimes.Are we bringing up a child in the way he should go? Pastors and elders look out for your sheep do not be afraid to rock the boat and speak out against any excess which tries to creep in. Make sure people know the way of salvation, preach it brothers and sister and may God protect, lead and guide you all BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT… Shalom

  68. He is offering a crazy logic in his total dismissal of all charismatics/pentecostals-i.e because there are so many dodgy ones, therefore its all bad! Huh?? if we applied that same logic to the calvinists, they would be in trouble! May I give you a few examples? Whitfield kept slaves right to the end of his life, and even justified the status quo. Unlike Wesley, he was in no hurry to rid the world of the institution of slavery. South Africa, aided by the Dutch Calvinists endured one of the most racist systems, long after the rest of the world had abandoned apartheid. Luther hated the Jews and was responsible for a very violent repression of workers which purportedly killed hundreds of ordinary people. Now with that record, and using John Macarthurs reasoning, I could very easily dismiss the entire reformed movement, but i wont.

  69. Pauline Richmond, raised many good points,!one of which is that a vast majority of charasmatic/Pentecostals build a foundation on ” experience”

    Sorry, folks I have a hard time with this, based on my. ” experience” with charasmaniacs that can speak in tongues ( you know the kind that they have no idea what they are saying, and I have Never seen an interpreter, or speaking one at a time,(per Biblical teaching).
    “Experience” is a shaky way to build a belief system. Jesus never spoke “tongues” in public. If he did, it would have been recorded. In Acts 2 the tongues were simply other human languages, that’s it! Why do Pentecostals continuously try to say that the tongues they speak, which no one has a clue what they are actually saying, is the same “glossa ” spoken in Acts??

    Also, I beloved there are only 3?times in Acts after ch 2 when someone spoke in tongues, and it is most likely in a ch 2 context, a sign for Jews that Gentiles will now receive the Spirit.

    And then there is Corinthians, which was written to a church that was in error in manny things, so, Paul wrote to correct them in many errors.

    Can’t we all just be followers of Jesus Christ, not denominational labels, and stop over emphasizing an experience as our anchor of our faith, and also realize, that Biblically not every believer will speak in this tongue that, forgive me, sounds like jibberish , that no one can understand.

    I grew up in the town of Northampton, Mass. Where Jonathan Edwards preached his famous, live transforming sermon. I believe the Spirit anointed that town, because thousands of lives were transformed, in fact, the whole town was turned upside down in repentance, and yet, not one mention of the charasmatic definition of speaking in tongues as evidence of being baptized in the HS.
    Were these transformed believers really transformed then????

    My own conversion was pretty radical, and I am literally a new person in Christ, have never spoken in tongues, does that mean I am not a true believer????
    Is my transformation ( that friends and family were amazed at) just an illusion then, since I have never ” experienced” the. ” evidence of the baptism of the spirit”????

  70. Pastor Mark

    Please read Acts 10:1-44

    Notice Cornelius was fasting and when Peter was called to preach, the Holy Spirit fell on them and they spoke with tongues.

    Please read Acts 19:1-7

    They also received the Baptism when Paul prayed for them and they spoke with tongues.

    The situation is while every ones experience is different in the scriptures they always spoke with tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Keep pressing into the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart as He wants you to have this experience. Remember that many will come with doubts and confusion trying to explain this experience of receiving the Baptism of the Spirit away because of their lack of faith.

    While fasting is good you do not have to be fasting to receive, you only have to “believe”. God promised that He would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and those seeking Him will receive what He promised.

    Mark 16: Those who believe will speak in new tongues.

    Stay in the scriptural promises from God and don’t try to rationalize it in your mind, yield to His Spirit while you are in prayer before Him and it will come to you as He promised.

    GaryB

  71. quote…My own conversion was pretty radical, and I am literally a new person in Christ, have never spoken in tongues, does that mean I am not a true believer????
    quote…….

    It means you do not believe what Jesus said in Mark 16:, its not a matter of being born again. That is a separate experience. The situation here is all of us have had a radical conversion and were saved out of darkness. But it is possible to start out our walk with the Lord and receive wrong teaching right off the bat explaining away and finding proof texts to prove what scriptures are not for today.

    We have to believe what the Son of God says over any thing that seems contrary to His words.

    In Mark 16 in does not get any plainer then, “those who believe will speak with new tongues”. That is the Son of God speaking in this text.

    You have to “believe”, if you have doubts you will explain it away by your experience.

    GaryB

  72. Vigilance Oct 26th 2013

    Wm & Gwenn and Others, concerning certain Spirit manifestations prevalent today. I don’t believe John McArthur is deliberately speaking against, or blaspheming the “Holy” Spirit. There is a very fine line between that True NT-HS who’s ministry purpose then and now, is to glorify the Son, who glorifys the Father (done only through proper authority structure order, as in God’s marriage simile) … A good question might be, does the HS ever glorify the spirit or recipient of the spirit? -Never- Not according to
    (John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: ”’ for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me ”’ for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.) There is a spirit today which claims to be the HS, yet draws attention to men and even to the spirit itself. I cannot call this spirit (The HOLY Spirit) at all. This spirit misrepresents the HS of Scripture in divine purpose. I often think of Proverbs 25:27-28 It is not good to eat much honey, Nor is it glory to search out one’s own glory. Like a city that is broken into and without walls, Is a man who has no control over his spirit. [seeking one’s glory opens us up to a spirit entering when the guard is down, a defeating spirit – we are defeated by a wrong spirit..a spirit seeking self glory, kinda like the one which was cast from heaven long ago, name being Lucifier the I WILL spirit..very active in his old business yet today via well meaning men, often Christian]. We have all had our involvement with this evil usurper, better to know and test the spirits we allow within.

  73. Gordon Neil Oct 26th 2013

    Liz48 is on the Ball. That means she is rolling, rolling, rolling. Hear God All Mighty coming ……talk about ‘cleaning house’ ..white glove inspection. Praise God!

    Luke 10:19-20
    I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

  74. Gordon Neil Oct 26th 2013

    “I found a (Barna Group) survey that basically said the top three most influential factors in our culture were movies, television and the Internet. The Churches-As-Usual wasn’t even in the top ten.” – Alex Kendrick.

  75. Vigilance Oct 26th 2013

    @Gordon Neil..re: “I found a (Barna Group) survey that basically said the top three most influential factors in our culture were movies, television and the Internet…
    OH MY! – laughable, yet not at all funny!
    Matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

  76. TriumphinChrist Oct 26th 2013

    Matthew 7:

    The Wide And Narrow Way

    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    True and False Prophets

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
    16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
    17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
    19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    True and False Disciples

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
    23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    The Wise and Foolish Builders

    24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
    25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
    26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

    28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
    29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. – JESUS

  77. “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” – 1Cor. 14:32

    This is probably a warning for those who prophesied to be self-control, and was done by each one according to his faith. We forget we are still earthen vessels; it’s the Lord who is so gracious to allow Himself to be poured into us, as filthy rags as we are. He is holy and yet He still wishes to turn us into His temple.

    It destroys the Body when men promote their word, which goes against the work of the Holy Spirit in His children. Some work in faith, others in works by the manifestations of Him, but all with the same Spirit.

    These men are not unifiers, but dividers. If many believe McArthur, we will see a return to hardline controlling church leaders who lead with an iron fist. I can’t believe that they usurp the work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Alpha and Omega, the Eternal Father, the King of Kings and Lord of all. I agree here with many, it would be good to pray for this man that he sees the light. I suppose he might be like Saul of Tarsus and needs the Lord to speak to him, like all of us need.

  78. The Lord uplifts; satan drags down. The Lord gives joy unspeakable and satan gives misery. The Lord blesses a seeker with His holy presence and Satan oppresses with a spirit of depression and fear.

    The Lord is pure and good. Satan promotes doubt and carnality and pride.

    It’s up to us, individuals how we accept God’s baptism. It’s not to be promoted, but to be equipped to do the great commision. And along the way, we get weary, and especially in these last days, we are hit on every side, by griefs, illness, watching the wicked prosper, being persecuted, mocked, having families leave us because we believe. Why wouldn’t a true believer want everything that the Lord Jesus is willing to shower us with? If it says in scripture that it is His will that he empower us with the manifestation of His holy presence, where we can pray with utterances and groanings in the Spirit that men can’t understand, WHO among us, would dare put a stop to that? Who would take a gift away from a child that the Lord presented him/her with?

    I believe that those who speak against the manifested presence of the Lord aren’t really concerned with the out-of-control seekers who make drunken and animal noises in a meeting; I believe they secretly have a fear that if God would pour out His Spirit upon ordinary believers in the ways of the early church, that they would lose control of their lucrative power and ministries. Even, so, come Lord Jesus.

  79. Barry Schmidt Oct 26th 2013

    Cessationism ( the belief) that the miraculous and supernatural dimension if the Christian life ceased after the age of the early church is a false doctrine .
    “Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever ” Heb 13:8
    “He gave some to be apostles some to be prophets some to be evangelists and some to be pastor and teachers to equip the saints for the works if service UNTIL we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God..” Eph 4:11-13

    However I’m not sure why Grady mentions Macarther being a 5 point Calvinist AS IF THAT IS A SIN TO BE REPENTED OF.
    Just because most Charismatics are steeped in the man centred Arminian doctrines doesn’t make it a sin or error to believe in a sovereign God who is in total control of the destiny of all men.

    Grady’s arrogant assumptions are just more fodder for the cessationists attacks on the credibility of us Charismatics

  80. Preacher Oct 26th 2013

    Hi Andrew.
    So sad that brother John is believing & writing this. Of course he is entitled to his opinion, but at a time when the Holy Spirit is needed so much by the Church, creating division is damaging.
    Like yourself I am the first to speak out against excesses that are claimed to be the work of the Holy Spirit, & I have sometimes faced rejection & criticism for making a stand.

    It’s known that if forged currency is circulating & the authorities don’t stop it, the whole economy is in danger. It’s interesting that Bank employees learn to recognise forgeries firstly by their feel. They handle so many genuine notes that they can readily DISCERN the false ones. We should learn from them that to recognise the false, we must first intimately know the genuine article.

    The Holy Spirit is not an optional extra. But essential in bringing the lost to salvation. He knows the secrets of every heart, that are hidden from us He convicts of sin & affirms the promises of God to those that repent. He seals us & guides us until we enter the promised Kingdom of Our Lord.

    I believe that it is possible to benefit from all the above, but to not receive the actual Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the signs that accompany it. They are given to signify the truth of the gospel that is being preached to the lost.

    Although in many Churches I regret that the gospel is no longer preached, nor the Wrath of God against Sin, or His Righteous Judgement against those that reject His love & Mercy freely offered by the sacrifice on Calvary.

    To many the truth will sound harsh, but if we fail to warn them, we are akin to the lighthouse keeper who stops lighting the light because his neighbours complained it was keeping them awake.

    We need the Holy Spirit when we preach, to confirm the Word we speak. He is not a magic trick, or a feel-good factor He is the third person of the Godhead & He comes to work in awesome power.

    Dr Martin LLoyd Jones, of Westminster chapel wrote a book entitled “Joy Unspeakable” which goes into the whole subject in great detail & use of scripture. The work may be out of print now, but it should be easy to obtain a copy if anyone wishes to investigate further.

    Blessings to all.

  81. Randy Allie said: “I was told that this direct attack against the spirit of Jesus many years ago, was the preface of Satans attack against the last great outpouring the Lord has been promising pretty much my entire lifetime in the ministry. If Satan cannot stop this from happening, he will attack it viciously. And find willing men who are deceived to serve him in this.”

    The exact thing that happened during the earthly ministry of the Son of Man, Jesus Christ. It will most certainly happen again because just as it was then you have religious leaders who THINK they know God and who THINK they have eternal life because they quote or memorize the scriptures but have not OBEYED the commands of the God they proclaim to love!

    And like the Pharisees and Jews of the first century who were not a part of the upper room and failed to receive the baptism of water and Spirit that is required to enter into the kingdom and New Covenant of God, the same thing is happening today, when professing ministers such as Macarthur say there is no baptism of the Holy Spirit, gifts of the Spirit, apostles and prophets, tongues are gibberish, etc…..

    Many words and prophecies that were written down in the New Testament scriptures are coming to pass and MANY DON”T SEE IT!

    PastorMark said: I’ve been praying and asking for this Baptism. How long does this usually take to happen?

    Mark I’m encouraged to hear of you praying for the Lord to baptizee you in the Holy Spirit. Can I ask have you been baptized in water?
    God requires that a soul be baptized in water and the Spirit in order to enter into His kingdom and New Covenant.

    While it is a popular belief and taught for decades that you are “saved” when you “accept” Jesus into your heart or just believe that He rose from the dead etc….. The Romans 10:9 scriptures that have been taken out of context like so many. This teaching is error and you will not find Jesus or the apostles telling anybody to ‘accept’, ‘pray’, ‘invite’, ‘ask’, ‘repeat after me’ etc… and then you are saved.

    ALL the first century converts to Christ were BAPTIZED in Water and Baptized with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in other tongues, which is NOT a separate act apart from conversion, it is a part OF conversion. This fundamental truth is exactly why there is over 38,000 denominations and ministries that all claim to have the truth! Certainly the time is ripe for a true reformation and restoration of the faith that was once delivered to the first century saints by TRUE apostles of Jesus Christ!

    I can help you Mark, if you really want help to receive the Holy Spirit into your heart. Here is a message I wrote some years ago that asks the question, “The Holy Spirit, (Is He IN You?)”

    http://gospelofthekingdomofgod.blogspot.com/2010/10/true-conversion-baptism-in-spirit.html

    Many blessings

  82. I meant to write: “This fundamental truth (not being taught today) is exactly why there is over 38,000 denominations and ministries that all claim to have the truth!”

  83. Barry Schmidt Oct 26th 2013

    Vigilance – I like what you said about the Spirit not drawing attention to Himself but always glorifying Jesus.

    Also agree how there is “another spirit ” which actually is a member of another Jesus and another gospel ( see II Cor 10)

    If you actually read John MacCarther’s critiques ( as most Charismatics have net even bothered to) you will discover many legitimate concerns. This is one if them- a Pneumatically centred gospel ( spirit centered gospel) as a opposed to a biblically balanced CHRIST CENTERED GOSPEL.

    This is one if the key signs of another spirit – a spirit that draws attention away from sola Christa Gloria to glorifying itself and the man who is manifesting it.

  84. Barry Schmidt Oct 26th 2013

    This lack of Christ centred thinking and speaking and writing and living is the most pervasive and pandemic issue facing the charismatic and Pentecostal stream of the church today.
    As a case in point very few of the articles and comments made even by this website even mention the name of Jesus Christ . It is ISSUE CENTERED but it is NOT CHRIST CENTERED .Out of the heart the mouth speaks and out if the heart the mouth FAILS TO SPEAK!!!

    ” show me the money ”
    If you don’t believe my evaluation read the articles and the comments for yourself . Count the words – then count the number of mentions of Jesus Christ – the absence of Christocentricity screams louder than anything here !

  85. Barry Schmidt Oct 26th 2013

    Where is Jesus Christ and him crucified in the so called “Spirit filled” community?

  86. Inspired Oct 26th 2013

    Thanks Barry for posting 2nd Cor. 10.
    As it is not wise to measure ourselves by ourselves, or compare ourselves among others. For as we judge so shall we be judged, and the measure with which we measure will be measured out to us. Christ is the measure of man. Eph.4:13

    Strange fire and strange apparel is offering up self righteousness to God. The pharisees are an example.
    I thank you God that I am not like that sinner, extortioners, unjust, adulterer, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get. And the tax collector would not look up to heaven/lift up his I’s toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, God have mercy on me a sinner.

  87. Gordon Neil Oct 27th 2013

    Consider this: Turn this man over to Satan …that he may repent. Ask God about this! Yes, we judge, we are in progress ..learning the mind of Christ ……so as to someday rule over angels with Him.

  88. Inspired Oct 27th 2013

    Gordon Neil,
    Just curious, but is this how you repented? You were turned over to satan?
    I thought the scriptures said that it was the goodness of God that leads to repentance? Romans 2:4
    Agree we are in progress and learning the mind of Christ who has an excellent mind.

  89. Pastor Mark you are right it is definitely for today Andrew has it and many who post here have it Jesus told the first apostles not to leave Jerusalem ’till they had received it Peter in the first sermon at Pentecost explaining it, said it was for all, even those who were far off (in distance and time) for all who would call on the Lord.
    You may find many encouraging testimonies from different cultures and countries here :-
    http://www.ourgodanswers.com/j
    Here is my youngest son James story he understate his condition he was delirious covered with spots from head to toe, and had temp of 105 he asked me if he was going to die, i just said we will have some prayer together it was, as some often say “too easy”
    http://www.ourgodanswers.com/james.html
    Love to you Pr Michael

  90. Perhaps praying for MacArthur is a simple sensible happy holy solution. It would probably change his mind if God spoke to him and he felt the presence of The Holy Spirit. It might even do him a lot of good.

  91. MacArthur is a Calvinist. This makes no sense to me to even care about what the non-elect are doing. If a person is elect by God, then that person cannot resist the draw of God to become a true Christian. If a person is not elect, then they will never come to God and cannot come to Him, because God is not drawing that person.
    So, if this is true, then how can anyone say that those false teachers, and false believers are doing damage to Christianity? It is God who draws people (if Calvin is correct), not proper teaching, and improper teaching will not deter an elected person from coming to the truth.

  92. watchful Oct 27th 2013

    {{ Many words and prophecies that were written down in the New Testament scriptures are coming to pass and MANY DON”T SEE IT! }}

    Amen Tyrone……..what has been will be again….at the time of Jesus the pure religion of the Jews had become a Babylonian hybrid, broken up into different sects. That’s exactly what we have today….I wonder which sect Jesus and the apostles belonged to….? If anyone answers, “None of them” they are right, and we should do likewise. Scripture says the early believers had “fled to take hold of Christ”……. its past time for us to flee it all as well, the Romans are coming..

  93. watchful Oct 27th 2013

    Gordon Neil is right – God did not permit the ancient Israelites to harbour sin in the camp, anyone who lived in sin was stoned. Remember it was/is GOD’s holy assembly. That was written for our ensample and still speaks to us today. Stoning was a metaphor for sinful flesh dying, if anyone lives an unrepentant sinful life while claiming to be a believer, we are not to associate or fellowship with them or welcome them in our gatherings until such time as they do repent…they are in effect handed over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, for their ultimate good……….as David said, if a righteous man strike me it is a kindness, if a righteous man rebuke me it is oil on my head.

    1 Cr 5:3-5

    For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

    So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
    hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1Cr 5:9-13

    I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
    not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[fn] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

    Someone that I know was just recently telling me about a woman in her church that had openly cheated on her husband, subsequently left him and their children, and was sleeping with one man after another, and my friend was chuckling about it, as though there was some high-minded virtue in taking it lightly………I was offended and very dismayed for God’s sake because such unbridled behaviour seriously defiled the entire camp, HIS holy assembly and made a mockery of Him. I asked her with a very grave face why they didn’t put that woman out of the church and I don’t remember how my friend answered. But it’s not the first time I have heard of such goings-on in the churches that I consider to be part of the false prophetic movement.

  94. Gordon Neil Oct 27th 2013

    Jesus chooses who He wills! The Christians-as-Usual cannot save anyone; prayer or no prayer. Ask David! Judgment will call for each of us to be responsible of what we do, what we do not do, what we say, what we do not say. Take a look at those that will be cut to pieces and throw in with the unbelievers, those beaten with many strips, and those beat with few strips.

    @Inspired …….Yes, I had a ball bat salvation, Baptized under a tree in Hunt, Texas. My uncle, president of the board of the Southern Baptist Convention, and never got the board out of his own eye; never. My dad, a great dad in Christ, planted churches denominational and non-denominational, chaplain of the county, missionary – will travel. Dad did turn me over to God, no more praying for ……..cause I was not in God will even though I was saved many times by God, God honoring my dad’s prayers ……..and many times I continue to say, “I was saved before I was born.” God is love!

    God personally confronted me in my broken condition. As the world turns, I was a hero, had owned my own business in my youth, management staff ..government contractors of compartmented classified contracts …Green Beret, Ranger in VN. I became more and more insane ……doing my own Joe Good Guy act. In my personal pain and suffering, I had a moment of clarity (God Given) …and I had no where to go but reached out for the Light, the Love of God.

    Jesus did not come for the self-righteous, the self-centered Christians, etc. He came for the sinners and poor having no grace of the world, seated in the pews trying to steal their salvation by works and keeping the pews warm. Go With God!

  95. Gordon Neil Oct 27th 2013

    Like in the Days of Noah. There is preaching going on here and Noah preached for 120 years BEFORE God closed the doors. So, keep preaching as we build on Christ Jesus. I really like the inspired preaching of God. I also know He preaches to me personally by the unsaved, the down and outers. Praise God!

    PS: My English Professor, I can still hear her correction; EDIT. Sometimes I think my name is ‘No, No’ and sometimes I think my name is ‘Edit.’ What day it is …One Day At A Time. Know You Enemy is a part of God Advanced Training. Advanced Training comes after Basic …the milk for Children getting the Board Out Of Their Own Eye. Keep singing!

  96. Claudia Oct 27th 2013

    Watchful posted; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ” His wisdom is too wonderful for words! Why don’t we just sit at nobody’s feet but His!

    Excellant, Watchful!

    When is man going to stop looking towards man for his answers and his guidance? Is not the Holy Spirit given by Yeshua enough??? The Bible clearly speaks that we are to put our trust in no man! All of us are faulty. We will only come through these times by totally trusting the Holy Spirit that we allow to indwell in us through a sincere heart belief in Yeshua. HE will teach us what we are lacking….but we won’t even totally understand what we are lacking until we stop seeking our source in mankind…..and clear the fog of man’s opinions away so that the Holy Spirit can be audible within us.

    What doubts do we have that we must constantly seek the approval of other men? We will never be released from nagging imperfections until we are transformed. No others opinions will be the salve that makes you feel whole and on the right track….because it is still coming from an imperfect mankind.

    Give me the GOOD perfect wine, poured within me, the cup, made by YHWH…..and pour the bad upon the ground that comes in a container made by man. The GOOD perfect wine will work within me to bring me from where I was, to where I am now, and to where I am to be according to YHWH’s understanding…..not mine.

    The Holy Spirit cannot be captured in words.

    He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God!

    Does the LORD require you to understand? NO! He has shown us what he requires.

    Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgement; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.

    There will be no agreement amongst mankind, until all come to the TRUTH through YHWH’s transformation of us…..not through the transformation of finding the correct understanding of man.

    Allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in justice, mercy, and humbleness. Understanding will come when our King of Kings returns.

    I see a vast flowing clear river, and those who hear Yeshua’s Word and Believe throw themselves into those waters. Than some start having doubts (perhaps because of their own expectations of the journey they would take) and they seek the man constructed rafts and boats floating on top of those waters, using their efforts to swim towards those man constructed vessels….the more they depend upon the vessels and the captains of those vessels….the more they lose their YHWH created abilities to be one with the waters, trusting the waters completely to take them on the journey that YHWH planned for them.

  97. Claudia Oct 27th 2013

    A big AMEN to your words, Gorden Neil!

  98. Inspired Oct 27th 2013

    Gordon,
    Forgive me, but I am trying to understand your writing above. You say you had a ball bat salvation, and then your dad prayed for you and then turned you over to God. This was my point, being turned over to God, not to satan. And from what I am understanding when you were turned over to God things changed. Then you wrote about the self righteous, and yes their works will be burned, because His righteousness orders our blessing and our purging.

    From my own past, I could have had a business that would gross well over a 6 figure number, however church folk were equating this with evil, and so I declined it. I now wished I had not done so, because in empowering us to be rich per se, it is so that we can be a blessing to others. I still give, but would have been able to give more had I not listened to those who wish to be poor and think that money is an evil thing. So in my estimation God was going to prosper me to live a godly lifestyle in that I would have had much to give upon His bidding me to do. Had I known His principles that are attached to foundational truths back then, I would have been influenced to choose that direction.

    Amen to your post Claudia.

  99. First, I want to thank Bro. Grady for speaking up. I did not fully realize what “Strange Fire” was until he did. I’m deeply appreciative, Bro. Grady. Well said.

    Second, I just like to share what the Lord showed me when I asked him about this. After asking, I had intended to continue my study of Matthew, but found my eye drawn to the Scriptures in Act 5 regarding the Sadducees and the apostles when my Bible fell open to them. Verses 17-29 clearly tell us to keep teaching what God has shown us and not be deterred by anyone — even those well acclaimed by man. I believe the key is in the last verse: “We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

    I knew immediately that God was urging me to continue as He was leading. Brothers and sisters, God has not been silent; but rather, clearly speaking to me and others in this age. Therefore, let us pray for Bro. MacArthur, but continue on as called. For we do not follow man, who is fallible, but God who is supremely able.

    Blessings.

  100. Thank you for the well written article. I agree with you, for the most part~~!
    I do however have a hard time with “falling under the power” or “slain in the spirit”! I have had this happen several times in my past olden days, of my christian life. I now question it. I now know, I probably, fell on my own, under influence of the one laying hands on me…I do not see it much in the Bible. I see men fell back one time that I know of, Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground”. These, were unsaved men!!
    As far as Godly people, Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke. Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
    Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spoke unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spoke unto me.
    Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
    Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
    I mostly see men falling forward, because of the Holiness of God,,,then God telling them to stand up!! Hmm, interesting. I am still in a state of confusion about this subject after 42 years of being a born again, spirit filled Christian. If anyone can enlighten me WITH SCRIPTURE,,,about this, please do. I personally think this has been a deception in the body of Christ, what does it really do to your life when you get up off the floor?? And I so wonder if they took the catchers away, how many would fall then??? LOL, I would venture to say, not many. I’m not meaning to be a septic, but I guess I am one now, I want to simply to go by, what saith the Lord!!!! Love in Christ, s

  101. I wish you would open up a live chat room, for christian fellowship. I for one need some good Bible Believing Christian fellowship. Anyone have any good chat rooms they can suggest?? Thanks

  102. Gordon Neil Oct 27th 2013

    Correction to a previous post:” ….Not seated in the pews trying to steal their salvation by works and keeping the pews warm.”

    Ball Bat Salvation ….Dad had a talk with God in the Spirit, “Saying, Father I do not want to pray for Gordon any longer. I have prayed and prayed …..and he just keeps on keeping on. I turn Gordon over to you. Please don’t kill him.”
    Some after that God confronted me with the Truth, either His Way or …..The End!”

    We are at War! My worse enemy was myself!

  103. Inspired Oct 27th 2013

    Gordon,
    Can agree that the worst enemy is our self,
    for it is this very self that we are deny.
    Thank you for explaining.

  104. I have appreciated many comments here on this article. I just want to make one comment about ‘speaking in tongues’.

    Please, please, please – be open to the possibility that there may two different expressions of this experience in scripture. One expression is a public manifestation of this gift in the corporate community. This gift in explained clearly in context in 1 Cor 12-14 This particular gift needs to be interpreted properly to edify a corporate congregation (1Co 14:13). Not everyone has this gift (1Co 12:30 – so stop making others feel guilty if they haven’t got this particular public ‘ministry’).

    However this is not the same ‘charismata’ as Paul’s or Judes reference to ‘praying in the Spirit’ (Eph 6:18, Rom 8:26-27, 1Th 5:17, Jud 1:20 etc…). This is a private prayer language that is something that all believers can exercise. Paul calls this – “groaning with such feeling that it cannot be expressed in words…(Rom 8:26-27)”. Every evangelical if they are Spirit filled can have this spiritual experience. It is a ‘trevailing’ in prayer that has been part of our evangelical experience for hundreds of years. It is particularly observable during seasons of awakening and revival. I believe this type of trevailing prayer is something that God wants all believers (Evangelical Conservatives, Charismatics and Pentecostals) to enter into and engage in. It is where we cry out to God with our spirit weeping for the lost souls of others around us.

    Please, please, please dear brothers and sisters be open to this type of ‘tongue’. Don’t be resistant to these experiences in prayer. Be humble before your heavenly Father and let Him affirm what you already possess in your own prayer closet. Let the Lord teach you (Mat 11:29). Recognize this same ‘groaning’ before his throne and deepen in your ministry of interceeding for others.

    Blessings Anaru

  105. Sandra Oct 27th 2013

    I have not read all above post so if I am repeating something already said, sorry. But I must comment on this subject. For years I have believed Hohn MacArthur is a wolf in sheeps clothing. My understanding of the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan and that is what MacAithor does! I have never been able to stomach listening to him!

  106. Sandra Oct 27th 2013

    Sorry for all the type-o’s.

  107. Andrew Oct 27th 2013

    Anaru – well said about “tongues”.

    I wish more people would seek God for this.

    Blessings!

    Andrew Strom

  108. Donald N
    So, so true! Why does a hardline Calvinist like Macarthur even care?
    Calvinism is the problem, not the cure!

  109. suez… as for falling under the power and slain in the spirit, I agree with you fully. I also was involved in that for many years. I was an usher in a few churches and therefore a catcher, also a personal catcher for a particular ministry. Then God spoke a word to me and said, “break away from the tradition of man.”
    After that I began to question everything. I noticed many of these spiritual manifestations are not in the Bible.
    I have chosen to not follow blindly but expect sound Biblical evidence.

    The object of faith is no longer Christ, but our self-esteem;
    The goal of faith is no longer holiness, but our happiness;
    The source of faith is no longer the scriptures, but our experiences!

  110. you must understand John is in a religion that thinks even the most devout pentecostal persons are a cult. Yet he has some good teachings on God`s word. May our lord Jesus open his eyes and bless the whole body of Christ.

  111. marilyn Oct 28th 2013

    “There can be no heaven oriented unity in the climate of doctrinal diversity.” That’s what the Reformation was all about. Too many men trying to do God without Him and coming up man saying they were speaking for God. If you truly want to be on fire for Him and very well used by Him, study His word and apply it to your life. This will make you like minded both with Him and those who He begat.

    The church in Corinth was mixing pagan behavior with the spiritual gifts. That’s why the apostle Paul was needed to straighten them out. Things haven’t changed much. Paul was know as an apostle, who are the apostle called by God to straighten the charismatics of today out? The ones that man has raised up?

    Lee Grady writes: “Our movement is new and fraught with problems, so MacArthur doesn’t have to look hard to find examples of troublesome doctrine. But instead of offering fatherly correction…..” Huh?! Yes, fraught with error and troublesome doctrine! That is why Dr. MacArthur has been trying to correct! But, read a lot of these two cents worth comments contained in these comments posted.

    Dr. MacArthur is a biblical scholar! He is most gifted by God. The church is blessed to have such a devoted man of God. It is scary to read such pompous slander and insults thrown at this man. Do you have no fear of God?! Please find the remedy for your itching ears that you are able to endure sound doctrine.

    This site continues to stir the ecclesiastical pot (thank you Doug). Ask yourselves, “Do these articles edify the Body of Christ? Do they bring us together in unity? Is God glorified in the hate represented in both articles and comments? Top priority with Jesus is unity in love (John 17). Not tolerance, but our eyes fixed on Him, ONLY wanting to please Him. 1 Cor 12:31. There is no “LIKE” in the Bible, only Love or hate. If you don’t love you hate.

    Thank you for your sweet comments Lisa. How refreshing. Thank you Nathan for your comments. Thank you to those of you that were fair and humble, not wanting to slander a good man. and trying to reason with those who were trying to murder Dr. MacArthur with their words.

    Lee Grady, you pointed out that Dr. MacArthur was 74. Why? In God’s kingdom we are to honor those who are older and wiser. Also, you were not truthful in much of what you conveyed to us about what Dr. MacArthur was trying to correct in the Church. That is, that much of the charismatic “movement” is something started here in America and it just keeps holding us back from God. It is definitely man centered, just like this article. Dr. MacArthur knows that God still heals, he just doesn’t go along with damage caused by those who arrogantly walk into the room demanding sickness leave, and when they leave the room, the person remains the same. How is God glorified? Similar to Torben Sondergaard on this site and his, “Put your hands on the TV and be healed.” Lots of proven smoke and mirrors in the charismatic “movement.” You see, these things are simply what man claims will happen through man, however, Dr. MacArthur reminds us what the word of God (Bible) says.

    One word that is overused on this site is “sad” or it saddens me.” Sad. If you want to read a really good, honest, balanced critique of Dr. MacArthur’s book that will not be released until Nov.:
    http://www.challies.com/articles/John-MacArthur-and-strange-fire
    It is a fool that judges a matter before he hears both sides.

    Those of you that have written that God speaks to you, ask Him if it’s ok to write what you are writing before you submit it. Afterall, we are to be the visible representation of the invisible God.

  112. Andrew Oct 28th 2013

    Sad.

  113. David's Star Oct 28th 2013

    Just the word charismatic leaves me cold. Hitler was very charismatic, but the word Penticost, that’s a very different thing. It seems to me the word charismatic came into being in the late 1950s or early 1960. Why that word ever came in, I don’t know, maybe it was another deception of satan to confuse and to devide.

  114. David Ravenhill has a good word on the matter:

    http://davidravenhill.wordpress.com/

  115. watchful Oct 28th 2013

    {{ While I will freely admit that the Charismatic movement could stand a little weeding in its own garden,}}

    Unfortunately, this is a huge understatement in David Ravenhill’s article. It is treating the wound of the people as though it were not serious. To start with God hates mixture, and it only takes a little leaven to ruin (defile) the whole lump. Jesus is not coming back for a defiled Bride. But the truth is even far worse than that – the whole charismatic/prophetic movement has become a vehicle for the impartation of new age spirits (ancient eastern demons, eg, Hindu, Buddhist).

  116. Gaynor Oct 28th 2013

    Mike Young – sorry I disagree – and I certainly disagree with Lee Grady when he says “it doesn’t make him any less a brother in Christ”. I beg to differ. I have met Calvinists in person, and frankly I’ve met better-hearted atheists. They are the coldest people I have ever known. Evil would be a better way. Calvin. There is only one truth – how about being a real born again Christian. Why do we need to fit into a denomination? I don’t belong to any ‘church'; I’m quite happy knowing God and being a member of the body of Christ. Yes I’ve also seen some way-outlandish stuff at charismatic churches, but not everyone is extreme in their beliefs. I am not pointing the finger at MacArthur or anyone, however, God tells us to come out from among them – he doesn’t just mean the world. See 2 Cor 6, and especially verse 3 – our ministries are to be blameless! Find me a church these days that is blameless and I will be a very very very happy lady indeed. Why mix with people who call themselves Christian, but are clearly not. That is why I’m a bit more picky about who I call my brother or sister in Christ.

  117. Gaynor Oct 28th 2013

    While I’m here and if anyone comes back to this page: I’m moving from Milton Keynes, England to near Glasgow, north of the border. Does anyone know of a good church that teaches truth, repentance, whilst having some fun (ie, people with personalities and not the wishy-washy), and where the word is actually preached, so I don’t need to stare at the ceiling watching paint dry, nor have to put up with strange-fire behaviour on the other extreme? Thanks v much in advance

  118. Go-Don Neil Oct 28th 2013

    Got my preaching shoes on this morning ……….

    Those that belong to Jesus Christ are not, they are no longer citizens of this world in spirit. Walking in the Spirit, a daily walk, not a Church-As-Usual walk and they are as a member of the Romans 8 Church; take a look at Galatians. The Temple of God is a living temple while Jesus, His Spirit resides in us. We are goers; not sitters. And we are builders of the Temple in us by God’s Word direction might be a bridging way to explain the Work.

    The Remnant Church actually doesn’t fit in this world of lying and dying …. paganism found in Christianity-As-Usual. Loneliness? Oh, yes there are days of Elijah ….’I’m the only one.”

    The Remnant is like the leftovers, the Few, the seeds of the good soil that kept their lamps burning no matter what by the Spirit. “Come out from among them!” ‘Be set apart’ …”Cut off what delays, discourages us in our affairs. Cut anchors of the other gods; gods that come in many different forms, opinions, ideas and worship. Along the Narrow Way there is freedom and the Liberty from being Oppressed; …. actually takes sometime for the flesh, the mind of the body to obey. However, once the flesh is under Self-Control by the Spirit’s led, our suffering is more and more from our spiritual wantings to be with the Lord.

    I have found, it is a trudging of sorts by all kinds of distractions of the world. The ‘I gotta’, ‘I wanta’ and ‘I think’. The dreams, the visions of Satan, today world ruler ……the attacks during the night and attacks from the by-ways of the ‘my ways of others’, the praying all the time, the guarding of your heart that belongs to Jesus, the tender traps of Satan in the Churches-As-Usual. YES, ‘As in the Days of Noah’ are upon us AND what a day. Jesus is coming soon! We remain standing by the Power of His Spirit ……..the Spirit of All Mighty God that protects His Bride. We continue to preach, “Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth, the only Eternal Salvation – Life.

    I have never known so many liars in the Churches as in this day! Many are conned and don’t know they give, they follow a Deceiving Ministry. Many actors, many actresses, many directors of fame that Self-seeking Pride brings. We must be Baptized by Jesus to learn to defeat, defeat the enemy as seasoned warriors,…the Warriors that are The Bride of Christ that will not give herself to another, nor share. The Warrior Bride I’m talking about says, “Get your own, go buy, your own oil. I will not be pulled down by your ‘poor me’.”

    In Christ you do have Power and a Helper …….we are not alone in the fight, in the sorrows of the day that surround us. If you think everything is just great, your are either in God’s rest, young with the Joy of the Lord knowing the difference OR you are conned into luke-warmness by Satan. There is a War going on! And Satan does hate the Love of God.

  119. ValleyAnt Oct 28th 2013

    Grady writes of MacArthur’s approach to the Pentecostal-Charismatic stream, “Instead of offering fatherly correction, he pulls out his sword and hacks away.” I’ve met a few men whom God [sought to] set apart to be spiritual fathers, to be exceptionally patient, kind, and amiable (promoters of unity, inclusive of all people) above the average Christian; John MacArthur is one of them. Talent (giftedness) and accomplishment never produce humility. But God does if He’s given a chance. Because of the Grace given him, MacArthur’s talents and accomplishments are many; but his patience seems to have suffered as a result.

    Grady says, “The New Testament urges us to ‘preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace’ (Eph. 4:3, NASB).” In that same Spirit and peace, people should, without self-righteousness, pray for ministers like MacArthur to walk in the call they received from God so that, if nothing else, they’ll be functioning as God designed them to function. If unintelligent dogs can easily obey their inferior human masters (because they were created to function that way), then we know that intelligence isn’t a necessity for those who are called as servants (with, as in dogs, the very DNA to serve) to obey God who is perfect.

  120. Kim Harrell Oct 28th 2013

    Hi Andrew, Thanks SO much for posting this – it was so timely, especially in my situation. I attend a church where John Macarthur is viewed almost like God Himself. It’s a long story, but I had been in a charismatic church where I saw things that were unblbical, but when I tried to correct them, I was told I had “a religious spirit,” (among other things), so I left. I went to a bible church, and that’s where I met my husband. I had much disillusionment about the movement at that time, although time and time again, the Lord has affirmed to me that the gifts are, in fact, for today.

    The church we have been currently attending is pastored by a man who was on staff with John Macarthur’s ministry, and he was the speaker who spoke on cessationism at the Strange Fire conference. At our Bible study, a couple who attended the conference shared some of the “highlights” of the conference. Among other things, here is what was said: “Charismatics say not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and they want to think they’re one of us, but they’re not. They’re not Christians.”

    At that point, I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. But I was just silent, as I was so angry and didn’t want to explode and get into the flesh with them. But I honestly don’t know how I can go back there to church.

    The problem is that the Bible says that you have to obey your husband. While he said that we could try other churches, since he wants me to be in a church where we’re both comfortable, I know that he’d really rather just stay there. Although he disagreed with these comments, it didn’t make him utterly sick to his stomach, as it did me. My husband has been a harsh critic of charismatics and it has caused great grief and pain in my marriage. And this whole issue has made things even worse. That church is SO dead that I dread going there, and don’t feel that there’s any way I can go back.

    Could whoever is reading this please keep me and my marriage in prayer? This has been tearing us apart, and I’ve had trouble sleeping at night.

    Thanks so much,
    Kim

  121. Kim…
    I will be praying for you and your husband to know God’s will for yourselves.
    Concerning your situation, this is my advice…
    Be submissive to your husband and attend the church of his choice. He is the head of your family. He has to answer to God where he leads. You have to answer to God how you follow. (His leading included following his head, who is Jesus Christ.)
    Continue in your personal relationship with Christ, in your private time. Continue to pray. Your situation is not (yet) worse than the advice given in the scripture…
    1 Peter 3:1-2
    1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
    2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.
    God bless you. Continue in your faith.

  122. Concerning the Pentecostal/Charismatic issue. I do consider myself a Pentecostal, because I believe the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples at Pentecost and also to all who will believe, because the Holy Spirit has never left.
    I do not consider myself a Charismatic. The main reason for this is that the term Charismatic more relates to the movement which began about half a century ago. This movement got out of control and has been causing problems in Christianity for decades.
    I don’t agree with MacArthur’s condemnation of all who believe in the gifts in operation today.
    I do agree that there are many who misrepresent the gifts and misuse them today.
    As I said before, there are two ditches on this road of truth. The blind leading the blind will fall into the ditch, regardless of which direction they veer off to. The truth is in the center of the way.

  123. Claudia Oct 28th 2013

    Kim, I feel your sadness…..as does Yeshua. He knows you understand and that you love Him. DonaldN’s advice is correct.

    Those in the church that your husband feels comfortable in, are trying in their own sincere way to worship YHWH….and that will count for something when the fog is cleared over all humanity.

    You being there next to your husband, and taking the pain that the rejection by them of your belief causes….is really not your pain. If you are right in your belief, the pain is Yeshua’s…..not yours. Yeshua will honor your burden….and you will become a silent blessing in that church. He can use you if you submit. Trust Him, not your own inclinations and motivations. Rest in Yeshua’s Arms and He will find many unplanned ways to use you in that church.

  124. Gary Gorham Oct 28th 2013

    several years ago God spoke to me and said in the days that are coming men will go with what they know. They don’t know Me. I recall something Bob Mumford said once; a man convinced against his will is unconvinced still. What is the point about arguing the benefits of wheat with the chaff? The solution for our problem is not by power nor by might but by My Spirit says the Lord of host. If you will pray in the Spirit (that is in tongues so their is not any doubt) then you can call upon God and He will show you great and mighty things you do not know. We are not talking about one of the gifts this is the essence of the Spirit of truth who will lead you into all truth. He always leads to Jesus who is the truth. How are you going to be transformed if you do not rest? How are you going to rest if you do not pray in the Spirit. With stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people herein is your rest here is your repose, but you would not. How do you enter the kingdom without being born of the Spirit, how are you partaker of the new covenant if God has not put His Spirit in you, how are you a son if you are not lead by His Spirit? God said I will wash them with clean water and give them a new spirit and then I will put My Spirit in them and I will be their God and they will be My people.

  125. 1 Thess 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
    If you are desiring to know more of God, then He will be there for you.

    A quick testimony.
    I was raised in a religious believing family of the Mennonite denomination.
    I “officially” gave my life to Jesus in a small Baptist church.
    I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in what turned out to be the most prosperity driven, money loving church of the 1980s.
    Since then, I have been in churches promoting many “odd” doctrines.
    All this time I was desiring to know more of God, and He was there for me in all the nonsense. Eventually, He began to sort out for me what was true and what was nonsense. He is still working on that, and probably will be till I see Him face to face.
    Keep pursuing God, the father, through His Son Jesus, following the leading of the Holy Spirit. The end of this journey is Glorious.

  126. Andrew Oct 28th 2013

    The fact that there are thousands of Spirit-filled Calvinists who consider themselves part of the same “movement” with MacArthur is staggering. They need to make a choice.

    “How can two walk together unless they be agreed?”

    Blessings to all.

    Andrew Strom

  127. Reading the comments here, I have to confess to being filled with disgust. Just curious – how many of you actually listen to MacArthur teach??? Personally, I LOVE hearing preachers teach chapter by chapter, verse by verse. I have gone all the way through the Bible with Pastor Chuck Smith, have listened extensively to J. Vernon McGee, and now listen to John MacArthur. In fact, I generally have an hour a day, so I usually listen to a full Bible study every day. Have covered about a third of the New Testament in the past three years.

    So having listened very extensively to John MacArthur, it is my conclusion that the majority of you are passing judgment on a matter without knowing what he is actually saying. (Contrary to God’s law)
    OK, you disagree with his teaching on healing? MacArthur teaches God answers prayer – but you do NOT see people with a gift of healing walking into a hospital clearing out the floors by healing everyone – do you??? The gift of healing the Jesus had and that the apostles had at times could do that. Has Benny Hinn ever put a new arm on an amputee? Jesus did. Give me a break. The gift of healing demonstrated in the New Testament does not exist today. But God still answers prayers (including for healing) just like He has all the way through the Bible.

    As for speaking in tongues. I think you charismatics / Pentecostals need to get a grip. Study the Bible chapter by chapter – how often do tongues come up??? The only place after a few (maybe three) mentions in Acts was in Corinth. And that church was an absolute mess. They had a church member who was having sex with his father’s wife! Are you going to use Corinthians as model on how to do things right???

    Just reading these comments, frankly, it reinforces my opinion that I really want nothing to do with charismatic / Pentecostal churches. I will stick to people / churches who preach the Word chapter by chapter, verse by verse. That way I will cover the everything in the Bible in the same balance and the same proportion that God put it in there.
    Can’t you see the danger you are creating. By focusing on a narrow range of topics (spiritual gifts / Holy Spirit), you are warping your theology and making everything revolve around your pet topics. The danger is that even if you are ‘right’ – you are still wrong because you are focusing on things out of balance.

    My advice to the Charismatic / Pentecostal movement would be this. Drop your emphasis on speaking in tongues and other ‘flashy’ gifts of the spirit. Just teach the Word of God chapter by chapter, verse by verse. I think in time you will find that speaking in tongues and other ‘flashy’ displays will greatly diminish. And as it diminishes, other things which are mentioned in the Bible more frequently will increase. Actually, this would be a very good thing…

  128. Kim Harrell Oct 29th 2013

    Jim,

    Actually I HAVE listened to John Macarthur many times and listened to at least part of his conference. I found it totally appalling. And this is not because he’s calling out excesses in the charismatic movement, or even because he’s a cessationist. It’s because he’s damning to hell millions of people just because they interpret Scripture differently than he does. I am in a cessationist church and don’t condemn anyone for interpreting Scripture differently. But to me, to say that ALL charismatics worship a different God and Holy Spirit than he does is to say that they are not believers and are damned to hell. This is where I have a serious issue. I think it’s not only heretical, but borders on being cultic, since he apparently thinks he’s the only one who’s correct.

    I also wanted to say thanks to Donald for your kind remark and prayers.

  129. Kim Harrell Oct 29th 2013

    P.S. Thanks to Claudia too for you kind input and comments!

  130. Andrew Oct 29th 2013

    Cessationism is heresy – pure and simple. The early church fathers from the 1st and 2nd centuries clearly record the healings and gifts continuing.

    Why there are Spirit-filled Calvinists who follow people like MacArthur is beyond me.

    Sad.

    Andrew Strom

  131. Jo Sappenfield Oct 29th 2013

    Paul said in 1st Corinthians 14:8 that he spoke in tongues–and he also said that not all will, and he also said shall one member of the body say to another member–I have no need of you. If MacArthur did in fact say those things, he is in direct violation of the Apostle Paul’s admonition to the church–written down for all to read. I’ve never hear MacArthur say these things–but if He did and if He is a believer, he will repent. I’m glad that I’m given the chance to repent when I make ignorant statements and I believe God is no respecter of persons. I pray that the Holy Spirit will bring someone into this preacher’s life who will be able to, if not by words, by action cause him to re-evaluate his position and state it publicly. Other men of God have done so–and this undershepherd can to.

  132. Kim Harrell Oct 29th 2013

    Andrew, Yep, I agree! I think cessationism is a doctrine of demons. However, you and I wouldn’t condemn a cessationist to hell, as the Strange Fire conference has done.

  133. Amen. Lee Grady!

  134. Andrew Oct 29th 2013

    Sadly, I believe MacArthur has hardened his long harsh position on this topic.

    He is now more dogmatic than ever before.

    Yes – he needs to REPENT.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  135. ~seems JOHN MACARTHUR has NOT met God yet…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_kG5P01zmc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUeapS6tXIdBI-Hf82-MrlCA

    he might be saved,, a baby on milk

  136. Those who wish the infilling of the Holy Spirit would just go away don’t seem to want to engage in a relationship with those who have received spiritual gifts. They forget that these recipients are receiving because they repented, gave their lives to Jesus Christ, and in needing to praise Him more, were suddenly filled with His Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

    I know many people, myself included, who have received this infilling; could I have continued in my walk with the Lord without it? I believe so; but there are times when I know I would not have been able to stand the tribulation that came in my life afterward unless I had had that in-filling. And many friends in church that I knew came to the Lord with nothing but full repentence and a willingness to give their lives totally to Him.

    When I hear a cessationist disregard the latter rain and the Promise of the Father to the disciples in Acts and Joel’s promise that it was for them, their children and children’s children) I question whether they’ve ever been down and out in their lives? Have they ever been hopeless, lifeless and devoid of joy? Stuck in sin and dependencies and addictions? Or just thirsting for more of Jesus? If being thirsty for not just God’s truth and Word, but wanting to know Him more intimately, is it a sin? I wonder if a cessasionist has ever wanted to be weak so He could be strong? Or lower themselves so He could be lifted up? Maybe they prefer to keep Him held back because they won’t be “the head” and won’t be in control. One of the hardest things in human nature is letting go of people. Shepherds can’t let go of their sheep because it means a loss of control. If the anointing of God falls on their sheep, that sheep might have a far better understanding of the Word for the days we live in better than that shepherd does. And what shepherd would yield? They would complain that that sheep is influencing the other sheep and steering the whole herd into a deep relationship with the Lord. They won’t have it, because they didnt’ authorize it.

    I hope and pray they stop fighting against the Lord’s Spirit. Forget the unruly ones; there are more genuine worshippers who worship in Spirit and Truth more than there are not. What are these cessasionists afraid of? God????

  137. John MacArthur is a cessationist? Really? Wisdom is a spiritual gift – MacArthur believes the Holy Spirit gives wisdom. Helps is a spiritual gift. There are some gifts which are permanent. But there are other gifts which are temporary. Tongues was temporary. Healing as practiced by Jesus and the early church is not active now days.

    If you go to his studies in I Corinthians, (which I just finished up), you will notice that spiritual gifts are divided into two catagories – permanent gifts and temporary sign gifts. MacArthur is not saying that all spiritual gifts are done away with, rather, some gifts which were temporary are done.

    The problem with so many making comments here and in the charismatic movement is that you are SO invested in tongues and other ‘flashy’ gifts that if someone denies tongues – you accuse them of denying ALL spiritual gifts.

    I will repeat my strong encouragement to study the Bible chapter by chapter, verse by verse. When you cover everything in the same balance and same proportion that God put things in there – what you think is so important will be something which is seldomly mentioned…

    Seriously folks, healing is a good test. Who are the people that walk into hospitals and heal everyone regardless of their condition??? Who is putting amputated limbs back? Who is healing people who were blind from birth? Answer is no one is. Does God heal people – of course. But not in an assembly line manner like it was in the gospels / Acts. And anyone who tells you they can do it is lying…

  138. Jim has a good point. But with the wrong knowledge.
    Knowledge is also what is lacking in the opperation of the gifts today.
    Faith is the issue. Faith means to believe. If your knowledge is wrong your faith willl not manifest into reality.
    People with great faith in mis led teaching will not see their miracles. This does not mean miracles have ended. It does not mean healing is not for today.
    Correct knowledge leads to successful faith.

  139. Andrew Oct 29th 2013

    Jim – healings are happening through laying on hands all the time. Plenty here see them. Just like the Bible.

    There is not the slightest proof in Scripture that tongues or any other gift was stopped.

    To believe so is heresy.

    Blessings to you,

    Andrew Strom

  140. Concerning John MacArthur, His Stance Against Pentecostal and Charismatic Believers
    And His Un-Scriptural Fight Against The Work And Ministry Of God’s Holy Spirit.

    MacArthur is a scholar and his knowledge is of books and of men and my saying that is not meant to discourage academic achievement in the Word of God. Yet it is painfully clear to see that he most definitely lacks the presence of the Holy Spirit in his life and ministry. I can’t believe that he has ever sought God earnestly over this matter. He is so convinced of himself that he will not go in earnest before the Lord to seek His word on what is and what is not on the matter of the Holy Spirit and His work in this day. Just what will he do with what is written in Joel, Romans 2, Acts 5 concerning the Holy Sprit’s working in both tongues and miracles???

    I would say this to John MacArthur even as Gamaliel the respected Pharisee advised the High Priest and the Counsel concerning the Apostles and their preaching Jesus after they had been imprisoned and warned not to speak anymore of Jesus.

    “Did not we straightly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught:
    But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest per chance ye be found even to fight against God. And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.”

    If John MacArthur is a man of God he will heed this warning that was so wisely give 2000 years ago or face the consequence of his Fight Against God.

  141. Inspired Oct 29th 2013

    I agree with Andrew,
    Those gifts are very much alive today as they were 2000 years ago.
    It is the traditions of men that have caused them to be of none effect through time. I believe in those miracles and more importantly I believe in the blessing that procures those miracles.
    Tongues edify the believer, and if I am not mistaken that word edify means to build up as in building a house, which is a refuge.

  142. Paul FC Oct 29th 2013

    I agree with Andrew. John MacArthur needs to repent! He is doing a great disservice to the body of Christ. Sorry.

    Jim said “Drop your emphasis on speaking in tongues and other ‘flashy’ gifts of the spirit. Just teach the Word of God chapter by chapter, verse by verse”

    Do the gifts of the Spirit and the study of the word need to be mutually exclusive? If we diminish the gifts and the workings of the Holy Spirit you will be left with the ‘Dead letter’ of the word, which is just what satan would want. There are many very gifted teachers of the word who are also baptized in the Holy Spirit.

  143. Barry Schmidt Oct 29th 2013

    Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. (John 6:35 NASB)
    “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15 NASB)

    Right there is the biggest difference between the sheep and wolves – the sheep are totally satisfied with Jesus plus nothing – the wolves are always looking for something more –
    Jesus plus nothing equals everything.
    Jesus plus anything equals a ravenous wolf in sheeps clothing.

    Don’t be deceived from the simplicity of faith in Jesus plus nothing. It’s the Serpents cunning friends.

  144. Barry Schmidt Oct 29th 2013
  145. Barry Schmidt Oct 29th 2013

    The irony is that cessationism is NOT RATIONAL
    It’s irrational and grounded in emotionalism- fear of the supernatural

  146. Inspired Oct 29th 2013

    I agree with you Barry.
    Having Yeshua we have all things we need, for he is seated at the right hand of God, and we in Him and should lack no good thing. My understanding was that the laying on of hands was a confirmation, the laying on of hands just confirms that which a person already has in Christ who said My peace/shalom/wholeness I give you, and then the healing would manifest. The Holy Spirit came to show us what Christ has and what He has we also have. He bore the stripes for our healing and so we should not lack this good thing.
    I also agree Barry that emotionalism is at the helm of many things. I “feel” like thus and so, and yet the reality is that I have all things in Christ. One thing was stated in scripture, that all things are possible to him who believes. The mind is a powerful thing and so if I feed it feelings it is likely to manifest those feelings, and if I feed it scripture, then the truth of the scripture becomes my reality and therefore manifests those things instead of what my feelings say.

  147. The Preterism Killer (Mt. 24:14)
    by Jonathan Welton

    I have had multiple people tell me that they haven’t taken the time to read Raptureless, but they “know what they think of preterism.”

    Typically, the opinion is that some of Matthew 24 did happen in 70AD (which I agree with), BUT SOME of Matthew 24 didn’t happen in 70AD…… (I don’t agree with this).

    One-Third of Raptureless is dedicated to going through Matthew 24 verse-by-verse and demonstrating that each and every verse has already been fulfilled.

    The verse that holds so many people back is Matthew 24:14. “And this Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

    Most Evangelical programs have used this verse as a major catalyst to drive fundraisers for missions work. Personally, based on this verse, I used to think that once we showed the Jesus Film to the last tribe of pygmies, then finally the rapture would come.

    I have come to understand that Jesus is not talking about the End of the world in Matthew 24:14, He is speaking of the End of the Old Covenant world. So Jesus declares that the “whole world” will be preached to, but the word for “world” is “Oikoumene” in the Greek, which means a localized area, not “Kosmos” which would have meant the whole planet.

    Oikoumene is the same Greek word used in Luke 2:1: “Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.”

    The apostle Paul used this same word later to confirm four times that the gospel had reached the whole civilized world as Jesus predicted (see Rom. 1:8; 10:18; Col 1:5–6,23).

    So yes, Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled.

    Now before your fundraising program begins to fall apart, let me say, this is actually WAY BETTER NEWS!

    The old idea of preaching to the whole world so that the rapture can finally come has created a program that is a mile wide and one inch deep. Yet if we can understand that our mission is actually to bring heaven into the earth, we can realize that we have a lot more work ahead of us than to simply preaching salvation. We are called to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom! We must be focused on “Disciplining the Nations”!!!

    If you have held back on believing that Matthew 24 is fulfilled because of verse 14, please give it another chance. It’s important that we get these things right because it shapes the foundation of our worldview

    Blessings!

  148. Andrew Oct 29th 2013

    Preterism is “off topic”, my friend.

    And though End-Time events did occur in 70 AD, the total fulfilment did not occur – certainly in the Gentile world.

    So it must be ahead.

    But please do not discuss this now.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  149. Claudia Oct 29th 2013

    “How can two walk together unless they be agreed?” That answer is very easy….by a generous dose of genuiine love, and an even bigger dose of humbleness. That is why Yeshua stressed so much our need to love others, be humble, and mercifull.

    Who truly has YHWH’s perfection of understanding to such a degree that they can label another Believer in Yeshua as being a “heretic”? Whether it comes from the McAuthor camp or another? The divisions within the Simplicity of Yeshua’s Yoke are caused by man’s understanding and limitations buttered with a generous spread of ego, pride, and superiority.

    Inspired and Barry Schmidt both speak wise words.

    No one’s understandings, if they are not backed up via the teachings in Scriptures which are as simple to understand as the Ten Commandments should never be used to divide or condemn other Believers. There is not one Believer who can claim perfect understanding at this point in time. To cast condeming labels upon others as so many Believer are prone to do will interfere with our practicing mercy and humbleness…not to mention love. It is fine to state that we disagree with this or that understanding (personally), but it trespasses when we claim to have superior understanding (unless it can without doubt be backed by scripture and there is no room for any other interpretation of that scripture).

    Paul had a great gift for languages. All at Pentecost were speaking tongues that were understood by the various nationalities that were present. Yes…there is a “crying out” “soul” language of prayer that needs no words and totally connects with YHWH…..much as coyotes and foxes can cry out and are totally connected with the others in their pack. We humans cannot understand their desires, anquish, or yearnings cried out….but they do. Just as YHWH understands our most deepest passionate prayers. And….yes…sometimes when praying in that deep total manner…it seems as if one is uttering unknown words. As to whether these times are emotional expressions…or angelic languages….it is enough for me that YHWH understands our sincere, humble, prayers….because it is all about Him and me…..and nothing about ego or the stamp of approval.

    One of the characteristics of HUMBLE is never quite being certain that we are the only ones that truly understand anything.

  150. Andrew Oct 29th 2013

    Yes Claudia – but “Humble” does not mean that we do not stand up for super-important Truths of our faith.

    Take away the Holy Spirit from Christianity, and what do you have? Basically – NOTHING.

    This subject is THAT important.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  151. Shane Idleman preached a message to his congregation after he attended the Strange Fire conference himself, it’s definitely worth a watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovoQ1Xh4NY

  152. Paul Crier Oct 30th 2013

    The reality is that without the power presence, gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the believers life today, then all we are left with is the dead letter of the law and a powerless Christianity and this is what cessationism brings. Simples!

    I really cannot understand the need for debate on this among mature believers.

  153. Jim and all, there is a great documentary film about the Azusa Street revival that happened in L.A. California back in 1906-08, just over a hundred years ago, where there is eyewitness testimony of limbs growing out of amputees, and mass healing’s. I don’t see that type of healing and miracles being done today but that definitely doesn’t mean any of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

    And what’s not surprising is the religious leaders of the day and the public criticized the move and said the same thing about this outpouring of the Spirit that many say today about believers being baptized with the Holy Spirit etc…., there is nothing new under the sun! Satan will always persecute and try to undermine a true move of God and do all he can to stop it, but nothing can stop a true work and move of God through His Spirit!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqROdLQQvz8

  154. I agree Paul!

  155. Inspired Oct 30th 2013

    They have not ceased, but fervency in prayer has.
    The scriptures say that the effectual, fervent/hot/burning/fever, prayer/supplication with assurance of an effect availeth much/ makes much happen.

    Praying in tongues in private allows God to build up His house within ( My Fathers house is a house of prayer).
    Then He can send them, with a word from God that will not return void and shall go out and accomplish that which He sent.

    Many things do not happen because of lack of prayer and fasting. Yet the fasting is not necessarily one of food, but one carnality or of biting and devouring one another. (can bitter water and fresh water come forth from the same fountain?)

  156. this is hardout commitment:

    fellowshipofthemartyrs.com

  157. Inspired Oct 30th 2013

    While we are in fellowship, or a ship/ark of fellows, let us no drift too far from the original meaning of the word martyr, which means witness. It was only later that it was applied to abuse and death. There are pseudomartyrs which means false witnesses.
    So I have to ask myself is it wise for me to summon them to come and get me, when in reality they know who we are anyway, or is it wise for me to not open my mouth and preserve life until I reach my expiration date regardless of the method by which it comes, even death as a witness?

  158. Hi
    It seems that in the body of Christ there are two extremes
    concerning 1 cor the 12th chapter.One side won.t touch it with a 10 ft pole because it brings division to their denomination of believers so they don.t even teach on it.or they teach against it.so it.s either to avoid division or loose attendance.The other side reads it teaches it but then abuses it to the point of taking it beyond the word of God into spiritualism where they get in to trouble and in some cases opening a door to familiar spirits.Is one side worse than the other,not so, both are in error.Paul when addressing the church at Corinth as we read exhorted them,humbled them,and corrected them.Not once did he tell them to stop moving in the gifts, or because they were abusing the gift of tongues to stop using that gift.No, he told them how they were to be used,decently,and in order.Oh church if ever there was a time that these gifts need to be in proper usage it is now, as the end of this age comes to an end and the evil days become darker.Let the church arise(not the building)but the body and use these holy anointed gifts that Christ has given us as the Spirit wills,to bring us in to the unity of the faith and maturity,so we are not deceived in these last days.God is not the author of confusion. satan is, and he uses man to carry out his plan on the earth.

  159. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    Chas – sadly FellowshipOfTheMartyrs run by Doug Perry is a proven Cult group.

    If you search the Net about them, you will see.

    I know the situation personally, and sadly they seem definitely Cultish in many many ways.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  160. ValleyAnt Oct 30th 2013

    Paul Crier said, “One can only imagine what a real blessing they would be to the whole Church should they embrace the Workings of the Holy Spirit today and be Baptized with the Spirit.” I agree.

    Too many comments already; I’d like to go more to the heart of this article: Lee Grady says, “The New Testament urges us to ‘preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace’ (Eph. 4:3, NASB), and we are also told that love is part of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. But Strange Fire was not written out of a heart of love. Still, there is no need to retaliate against MacArthur. He is our brother because we all believe in and worship the same Savior. The best thing we can do in response to this extremely unkind book is to love our brother in spite of his unfortunate bias against us.”

    I hope Lee’s conscious motives are good (though conscious motives and subconscious motives can differ and be contrary to each other); but whatever his motives, the above paragraph of his is full of some major but usually overlooked inconsistencies. I won’t go through them one by one, but here are just a few main or major points:

    1. There is no spirit of UNITY in the article. Grady quotes that we should work towards unity and peace, but he uses the terms ‘us, we, our’ and makes great distinction between the camps of Charismatics and whatever MacArthur is part of. (I hope that those who read will be able to see this; though it’s actually glaring, it’s usually hidden till one knows to look or looks and keeps looking.)

    2. The passage Grady quotes says that we should “preserve the unity of the Spirit.” Unfortunately, most Christians haven’t been taught that ‘the things of God are from God’ (operate only as God operates them through a person) and can’t be operated by power or might but only by the Spirit. That means that while we can ‘preserve unity’ and peace as much as lies in us, we cannot “preserve the unity of the Spirit” except He is the One preserving it through us toward others. In the same way, we can love ice cream, music, family, friends, our spouses and children… but ‘the Love of God’ working through us to others is not our own; it is entirely different (most know by now about the different Greek words for love (too bad we only have one word in English) and that the Love that is God’s to us and through us is agapao and agape). Our love does not lay down life for our neighbors; His does. Our unity is EXclusive and defiled with bias, self, and bad decisions; His unity INclusive but also displays wisdom and discernment. I hope this makes sense.

    3. Grady says that we are to love but that ‘Strange Fire’ was not written in love. Too much to be said on that, so I’ll summarize in this passage: “Many a man claims to have unfailing Love, but a faithful man, who can find” (Pro. 20:6, NIV). Unfailing Love is defined in the Bible as the Love that comes only from God… but many Christians are quick to say and think, “I have [unfailing] Love.” Grady basically agrees that real love can be observed with the natural senses: if you smile and try to agree on the Scriptures with others, then you have love; but if you disagree with the Scriptures and write harsh words, then you don’t have love. (Anyone who reads the paragraph of his I quoted with more meditation will begin to see these inconsistencies.)

    4. Grady ends by again writing out his ‘us vs. them’ (because if one knows to listen, the mouth does speak from the overflow of the heart) and calling MacArthur “our brother”. Which one is it? Are we still playing nice Christian? “That Christian destroyed my life, but I still love him since we are brethren.” Really. The Bible says that two cannot walk together (are not brethren) UNLESS they are agreed (in spirit (the meaning of which needs to be taught), not doctrines). If Grady and MacArthur are not in agreement, how can one be the other’s brother. Even Paul and Barnabas split for a while when they disagreed; they didn’t sugarcoat anything.

    There are many things I want to say with the above; the main one is from this passage: “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted” (Gal. 6:1). There was a time in college when my sister was always on the computer online chatting. I used to hassle her about it since I was a better person and preferred to socialize with people face to face. About two weeks after I began to get after her all the time, I was suddenly so immersed in the online chatting thing that I went two days once without sleeping (and ended up sleep walking on campus as a result!). I ‘overtook’ my sister in ‘an imperfection'; because I was not gentle (wise), I ended up falling because of my own self-righteousness. Grady should be careful how he is thinking (in his heart) and therefore talking about ‘us, our, we’ as different from ‘they, them, their’, because truth is from God but division isn’t; and, if coupled with the self-righteousness that basically always accompanies all ‘us vs. them’ thinking, that ‘us vs. them’ can lead to a fall. No one who is ‘against others’ ever wins; but people who are ‘for a thing, a person, a cause’ do win. It is not ‘us vs. them’ (which comes when we do unity in our own might), as John and James thought when they sought to call fire down on Samaritans and wanted to stop a man from casting out demons who didn’t follow Jesus with them; it is rather ‘God and then’. We are so used to this ‘us vs. them’ that we miss it and don’t see the division, exclusion, and party spirit in it (even when the person it may operate in is not aware). Many people who appear to be good guys will end up sitting on hot coals for all eternity, and I’m afraid that many Christians will be surprised by it.

  161. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    Hmmmm.

    I do think Grady may have been trying hard to be “over-gracious” in his remarks.

    But there is nothing wrong with strongly opposing those who scare people away from the fullness of Christ’s Spirit.

    It is worse than heresy. And I do not know if we should continue treating MacArthur as a true “brother” or not.

    This is very serious sin he is committing

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  162. ValleyAnt Oct 30th 2013

    I want to add a few more things (as if a praise report):

    I believe that for a very long time (actually, I know it right now as I’m writing), the Holy Spirit has been calling Christians ‘deeper’– not just deeper in the Word (which is good) or the Spirit (which is also good) but deeper in ‘the things of God’ (which includes both of the above and then breaks out of our comfortable boxes and expands continually like the ever-expanding universe). When the famine hit in Joseph’s time, the Bible records that Israel said to his sons, “Why do you stand around looking at each other… Go down [to Egypt] and buy us some food that we may live and not die” (Gen. 42:1-2). For many years, we Christians have stood around looking at each other: “Well, where is the revival?” “Why is God not moving?” Israel would say to us, “Go… buy us some food that we may live and not die.” From what I see, and the effects of extreme malnutrition on so many, it’s apparent that there has been little food and that few have ‘gone down to Egypt to get food’ so people can live (to the full) and not languish on rations (die).

    I say the above to say that we’ve picked at the same things for a long time: the sins of others; why we’re better than others; the world is coming to an end; etc. But these things have not brought much fullness of Life. We have to return to the beginning (at least focus our eyes there) where God provides answers to so many questions and solutions to so many problems. As I was talking with two men who talked about ‘intellectual things’ (like the planets and quantum physics and such). At least one was an atheist; the other didn’t seem to be doing much better. As we talked, I began to tell them how God made all things to work perfectly (i.e. in an orderly way) to the extent that outside of that order, things no longer work well or at all. Thinking I was a novice and probably stupid since I’m both young and Christian, they pressed me to see if I could produce something they could respect. I asked them, “What makes an apple tree an apple tree?” I helped since it would take a clever person to answer from just that info.: “Is it the leaves? Is it the apples on the tree?” They didn’t answer, because they couldn’t and because they thought that it was a trick question. But the simplest things are the most hidden; I told them, “An apple tree isn’t an apple tree because of its apples (fruit) or leaves or the way it looks (for those who can tell trees by their shape and bark, etc.). An apple tree is an apple tree because of the seed it grows from; so, if an apple seed is planted and a tree grows and has no apples, it is still an apple tree… because the seed is an apple seed.” They didn’t know what to think, because most people don’t begin things where they are wise to begin… at the beginning (it’s too simple and wise for us and our intelligence).

    While we stand looking at each other, staring into the skies for some rapture, and wondering why things are they way they are, God is calling us to return to the beginning: “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; THEN you will find rest for your souls” (Jer. 6:16, NKJV). The NIV is beautifully more contemporary and clear: “Stand where the roads cross, and look around. Ask where the old paths are. Ask for the good path, and walk on it. THEN your hearts will find rest in Me.” Stand where the roads cross; go back to where you got off the right path, where the roads cross(ed); stand there and ask, ask, ask, look, look, look till you see the beginning, the start, the foundation. Start back at the beginning and follow that right road, “THEN you will find rest.” Apples come only from apple seeds; rest (fulfillment, completion, satisfaction) comes only from the right beginning. What we are doing these days– talking about who is wrong and who is right– isn’t losing salvation by any means; but it’s far from where God wants us to be. “The unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3) is a beginning place, not an option; “we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren” (1Jn. 3:16) is a beginning place, not nuclear physics; “let us love one another, because Love comes from God” (1Jn. 4:7) is a beginning place, not quantum theory. God’s commands aren’t burdensome, but we’re burdened by everything else and stand around wondering, “Where is His power which He promised…” While God has specifically prophesied times of revivals and such, there are things we can do which also bring ‘His power’ (at least among us, because revival isn’t very wise if there are none to steward it) according to His own spiritual laws; the main and basic ingredient for this (as we see in the early Church especially) is unity: “… when brethren dwell together in unity… there He commanded the blessing” (Ps. 133). Amen. While we look at each other, let’s also look toward the beginning; all those great things we are awaiting today are without a doubt back there. God bless all.

  163. ValleyAnt Oct 30th 2013

    Andrew, I agree with you that it is a grievous sin. I don’t know much about MacArthur, but I don’t think the article is lying in what it said about him. It is common to, if you receive a unique or ‘special’ calling to become proud and abuse it and people. (Often times, the more proud a leader becomes, the more he may abuse the people. This means that if MacArthur is doing this, he will, more often than not, be in a higher level of transgression than ministers who are even sleeping around on their wives but not abusing the Sheep. It often takes a real problem in the heart to begin abusing Sheep in an uncaring way and usually points to the achieving of power as the rich or/and powerful can be more abusive than those who have less: “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”) However, I believe that it’s too easy for sin or error or pride or wrong motive to be present in us ourselves when we point out the misdeeds of others. Gal. 6:1 doesn’t tell us to avoid and not speak up about those ‘taken in a sin’ nor does it tell us to rebuke them harshly; what it does tell us is (and this is VERY important) allow those among us who are MATURE (“spiritual”) to restore the person (or address the issue) “in a spirit of gentleness”. A spirit of gentleness is not human goodness or goodwill. Jesus only ever said two good things )in the same instance) about Himself as recorded in the Bible: “I am GENTLE and humble in heart” (Mt. 11:29). That gentleness IS humility, and that humility isn’t human either (once again); it is not good intention or human sorrow. It is from God and carries discernment or wisdom (knowing what to do in a/the situation) with it. Mature Christians, when dealing with sin, do one thing very well: they LISTEN to what God is saying about the issue and then speak. (Isaiah said that Jesus would do this 24/7; we know He was spiritual, and He is the Example of what a mature/maturing Christian looks like.) “You who are spiritual” listen (and are quick to listen and so slow to speech and anger); those who don’t wait to hear God and share what He is saying are not being mature (and are eager to speak and also get angry quick when what they offer isn’t received, because it came from them and not from God), therefore, naturally, what they say will be tainted with flesh.

    When David, not having the Spirit within but SENSITIVE to Him, cut off the edge of Saul’s robe simply to boast to Saul that he could’ve killed him, the Holy Spirit convicted him. With so many leaders in sin, God is more eagerly looking for those who can do more ‘covering’ than ‘exposing’ (and I mean these not in actions but in motivations and spirit). Paul said to the Corinthians, “When you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you” (1Cor. 11:18-19). There will be leaders and Christians in division and strife and sin, so that the righteousness of those who look on and see will be qualified. The Lord taught me much about MacArthur’s original callings by having me listen to one of his messages and further taught me about the office of the prophet by having me read just a few pages of one of his books. No doubt he was called to great things, as Paul Crier intimated above; but things seem to have gone awry. While we acknowledge these things, mostly for the sake of those who seek to go on with God but are confused about these things, we are definitely supposed to continue to focus on things that are more important. Are there more important things? Yes. When you drive, you don’t focus on anything but where you’re going; however, you must be aware of other things for your and others’ sakes. In the same way, we are aware but definitely focus on where we’re going (and not on those who seem to be going in the opposite direction). No one on the road does that in the natural; we shouldn’t do it in the spiritual. So, though we are to be discerning and to know and to warn and exhort and encourage and rebuke, I believe the main thing is waiting until God releases enough info. to progress just as Jesus always did: “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God” (1Cor. 4:5).

  164. That’s a good word ValleyAnt, there’s a lot of wisdom in what you just shared, Love you, Andrew… :-)

  165. watchful Oct 30th 2013

    Maybe such as MacArthur are unwise virgins……..they have a lamp but no oil with which to illuminate the word. Their path is not lighted. But at the other extreme the light they have is darkness, it is a false light. I think that all anyone can do is to hold up the light that they have and keep on going.

  166. Andrew said..It is worse than heresy. And I do not know if we should continue treating MacArthur as a true “brother” or not….

    I believe because of being accused of being judgmental many have quit using discernment. This is a ploy of the enemy to cause us to ignore the fact that there still are many wolves in sheep’s clothing, false teachers and false prophets, who’s purpose is to lead away from the truth of Jesus Christ.

    Just because someone claims the name of Jesus, does not mean their underlying purpose is of God. How else could all these false teachers be followed if they were not putting on a good show. Satan himself comes as an angel of light.

    2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

  167. The apostle Paul spoke out boldly against anyone who would teach anything contrary to what he himself taught, which he received by revelation from God. Anything contrary should be considered accursed.

    2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Gal 1:6-8
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    I have known some men who seemed very sincere in their teaching, but they themselves did not realize that they were deceived, and were teaching deception also.

    Discernment is very important these days, and also very scarce.

  168. Deirdre Helms Oct 30th 2013

    LETS GET REAL PEOPLE……fringe element? what fringe element of the Charismatic movement. The mainstream magazine of the Charismatic movement is CHARISMA and they are the leading propaganda of ERROR and witchcraft (mainly divination) in the church.

    I UNDERSTAND this gentlemens view as we preach a supernatural God and yet cannot discern a Christian from a Satanist……….REMEMBER Charisma having on its FRONT COVER the converted Satanist (supposedly)…..Remember how the Church on the Rock in Rockwall TX sponsored him..(the form Satanist) and arranged a QUICKIE marriage for him and his live in girlfriend…..to make things LOOK MORE genuine……..wow…that was an eye opener, because the guy’s former wife found him that way…he was YEARS in debt on guess what CHILD SUPPORT PYMETS (scripture says to not support your family makes you worse worse than an infidel)……so you see………..what would be the FRINGE element……

    I PROPOSE there is no fringe element……..David Wilkerson’s prophecy from the 70s has come true………he said instead of worship services we would have Seances in churches…..everyohne freaked out ….then……..but I personally sat in a church (Daystar Atlanta) where we were supposedly guided into the 3rd heaven (I did NOT participate) and were supposed to say HELLO to anyone we saw……….NECROMANCY in the church………we are forbidden to talk to the dead or imposters of the dead………..

    CHARISMA CHARISMA Magazine……..you ARE ARE the fringe element………

  169. Deirdre Helms… All too true, but you are referring to those who are in the “other ditch”. There are extremes on both sides.

    Discernment and commitment to following the Spirit in truth will lead us down the center of the road.

  170. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    Also worth bearing in mind is that CHARISMA has improved much in recent years – actually questioning a lot of these things instead of promoting them.

    Too little too late?

    Maybe – but we hope not.

    -Andrew Strom