-extracts by Michael Brown

Hyper-grace teachers frequently emphasize that they do not condone sinful living and that God´s true grace will produce a holy life, and I believe they sincerely mean this. One hyper-grace author even states at the beginning of his book, “We are not propagating immorality, because if we truly believe in God and love Him there will be corresponding works (because faith without works is dead).” Absolutely!

There are boatloads of testimonies these teachers can point to,
documenting how thousands of believers have found freedom and
deliverance by embracing the message of grace. In previous years,
these believers had lived under a weight of condemnation, thinking
if they just worked a little harder God might accept them, feeling
as if they never measured up. Then they encountered God´s
amazing grace and were transformed.

This is wonderful news, and I rejoice in these testimonies too. In
fact, that is the message of grace I believe in and preach as well.

Unfortunately, there are now boatloads of stories of believers who
have been terribly injured by the hyper-grace message. In fact,
since my article “Confronting the Errors of Hyper-Grace” was
posted last week, I have not been able to keep up with all the
horror stories that have been sent my way.

This one is typical, from Jessica:

“I have seen firsthand the changes that come with people who
embrace this message.

“I joined a small group 3 years ago that went from having regular
prayer meetings and living holy connected lives together to stating
`prayer is a work and denies grace´ and `sin allows grace to do
its great work.´ All of our prayer meetings and Bible studies were
traded in for game-nights and nights out at the bar to `witness´
where many from the group got plastered… all in the name of `grace.´

“My heart has been so broken for my dear friends who I walked
so closely with. As a group, they have embraced sin as not only
acceptable, but justified and desirable. I have been completely
ostracized and mocked for my stand in holiness. They don´t
even call me by my name anymore-they call me `Pharisee.´
Unfortunately, I have had to step completely away from these
loved ones and am spending my life in prayer for them.”

Another wrote this:

“I had a loved one who was an intense follower of hyper grace
start to lie and cheat in his business… He was a different person
before he started following hyper grace… He wasn´t greedy, in
fact he was selfless, humble and very much in integrity. Also I
can´t mention to him the fact that he lied and withheld info in order
to steer people to invest… Why? Because he says there is no
condemnation in Christ. So no one is allowed to mention that
aspect of his behavior to him … or else.”

A worship leader wrote to me, describing what is happening among
prominent worship leaders he knows, where “the drinking partying
thing is rampant. Totally excused because they were under grace
not legalism.”

… Hyper-grace teachers commonly claim that the words of Jesus
no longer apply to us. Instead, they argue, Jesus´ teaching was
for the Jews under the Law before the new covenant was
inaugurated, whereas Paul brought the message of grace. If this
false dichotomy doesn´t raise a red flag of warning, nothing will.
Simply stated, any teaching that minimizes (or even ignores)
the teachings of Jesus should be rejected.

I appeal to you, my brothers and sisters who are leaders in the
hyper-grace camp (or, in your view, who are preaching the message
of grace) to take these things to the Lord and make some serious
course corrections before more lives are destroyed. Many have
been helped by the truths you have taught, but many others have
been damaged by your errors, and you cannot rejoice in the good
without taking responsibility for the bad.

We don´t need any more horror stories.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-


Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on March 14th, 2013 at 8:38 am.


427 Replies

  1. What I do not understand here is, when people hear a message like this in a group setting, Why are they not convicted in their hearts that this is wrong?

    I remember many a time when setting in different churches and some minister would say something off the wall and I lacked understanding and did not really know what he was talking about, the Holy Spirit would give me a check in my spirit that something was wrong.

    You would think as in the case of Jessica and others that all of them would recognize that this is not of the Lord.

    John 16:
    12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

    The Lord will show us what is His will even when we are babes in Christ, is what I am trying to convey here.


  2. The scripture speaks for itself
    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

  3. Please Andrew before you send or allow these articles to be sent out to us can you ensure that there are some names and organisations attached to the comments made about them, because how are we to check out what is being said for ourselves.Otherwise they are just “unfounded accusations” at best.
    I have the utmost respect for this site ,its ministry and those who impart knowledge and experience to the contents of it:however it really frustrates me when the names and ministries of persons you want us to be aware and warned of are missing.”Hyper-grace teachers frequently emphasize” Who are these people? Are we to be suspicious of everybody, and how do we warn others about them if we don’t know who they are. Thank you in anticipation….

  4. Rodney Mar 14th 2013

    Yes, some names please.

  5. I suspect that the problem is not the grace message, but poor timing. Grace preached at the wrong time is destructive to spirituality. The Bible does not start with Romans 5, but with the Law and the Prophets, and there is a good reason for this. The law humbles us and makes us aware of our sin. Only the person who realises the reality and depth of his’her condemnation is ready for the grace message, and such a one will NEVER use this message as a freedom to sin. To preach grace to one who does not cry out for it is like handing a lifejacket to a Bushmen in the Kalahari and expecting him to jump for joy and hold on to it for fear life. Sorry, it won’t work. But for the man who is about to drown… well, that’s a different story.

  6. While this article speaks quite adequately against the dangers of hyper-grace, it also demonstrates another important spiritual lesson: ANY good doctrine/teaching/truth can become dangerous if it is not balanced with the rest of Scripture and the other spiritual truths found therein.

    Often in the New Testament we see the Apostle Paul addressing this very issue. For example, in 1 Cortinthians we see Paul balancing the issue of irresponsible use and focus upon the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He balances it with the supremacy of love, scrutiny by elders/spiritually mature, and practical controls (chapters 12, 13, and 14). In that same book, he balances the truths of grace and their spiritual standing in Christ with the practical truth of their carnality and spiritual immaturity and urges them to start living holy lives to line up with their standing in Christ (chapters 1 – 6ff).

    Those who would expound the truths of Scripture must be diligent to carefully and rightly divide the Word of Truth by taking any spiritual truth in the context of the ENTIRE canon of Scripture. No verse stands in isolation. It must be taken in context of the chapter, context of the book, context of the Testament, and context of the entire Bible.

    There are far too many (even numerous contributors to this site), who either are too lazy to become intimate with God’s Word and really know it; or lack the requisite skills and/or tools to SEARCH all of Scripture to find the balances to any truth; or are too prideful to listen to those called to study and teach the Word and think they don’t need anyone to teach them – even though God has established teachers in Christ’s Church to help keep them from spiritual error and deception and help them to come to maturity in Christ (a Scriptural balance to those who think the Holy Spirit will show them anything they need to know and they don’t need any man to teach them).

    There is a balance in Scripture, that while we are to take personal responsibility to be intimate with the Word, there is also the element of being an active part of a local Body of believers. The Scriptures teach that this necessary and God`s design for the growth and work of the individual. When one is in this form of personal relationship and interaction, the Body tends to have a balancing effect on the individual. While this is not readily observable in many local Bodies, it is nonetheless an integral part of a local Body.

    This is one thing that is very beneficial in a site like this. While not a “local“ body, it does give various members of the Body of Christ to interact and learn from one another. Thank you for providing such, Andrew – and for the freedom to express contrary views. I have often found this process of sifting through a topic on this site to help me come closer to the Truth and the balance of Truth.

    Regular contributors and readers of this site will realize that we are living in an age where spiritual deception abounds. One of the best defenses any believer can have in place is to make the reading, studying, memorizing, and meditating of the Word a prime priority in their lives. As a teacher of the Word I also recognize my need to sit at the feet of others God has called to be teachers. None of us knows it all or can ever come to a place where we can stop studying and becoming more and more intimate with God`s Word. The best defense against the counterfeits is to know well the genuine.

    May God help us all and grant us His grace in abundance that we might know the Truth more and more.

    God bless,

  7. This is another example of people who have not been taught how to study their Bible correctly. Hyper grace people are using it as a buffet to pick and choose what they want without following the proper rules of interpretation. Unfortunately way too many pastors don’t understand these same rules and that is why they go astray. Andrew is right in saying a social gospel is being preached and not a Holy gospel which is the call to holiness.

    In studying the Bible we must first ask the Holy Spirit for understanding then read it in it’s immediate context, then let other scripture in the entire Bible shed light on it to bring conviction, encouragement, and drawing us to a more holy walk with Jesus changing us to glorify Him. This is not legalistic or being a Pharisee. People will use any reasoning to not confess sin and turn from it. Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed Satan. See the pattern here. Thus we must pray for the hyper grace deceived folks to see the light of God.

  8. Having observed the back and forth between Andrew and Mark (In the Confronting the Error segment) I have a couple of questions. In regard to the rejection of the greatly forgiven unmerciful servant and those in Matt. 7 whom Jesus said “I never knew you.” In both cases, isn’t the rejection based upon the choice they made to reject God’s terms? The miracle workers boasted in what they had done, not Christ, so their “testimony” spoke of them. The unmerciful servant declared, by his actions, that the grace he received was not valued, hence, here’s your debt back.
    The other question I have is in regard to Mark saying that we no longer have a sin nature. What then is Paul’s mature struggle in Romans 7 when he declares “O wretched man that I am.” ??? And when James writes concerning our praying amiss, desiring to consume our requests upon our lusts (carnal desires)?
    While I am made a new creation in Christ I believe it is my position that has changed…I am now acceptable in Him, which brings me to a place of Rest, while the work of sanctification continues as all things work together for good to form me into the image of Christ. This is a work of God in Whom I will boast..quite the opposite of those in Matt. 7. And, for the mighty Grace I have received, by the Grace of God I will forgive those who offend me.
    I pray this makes sense……… Joe

  9. Ejimanze Mar 14th 2013

    Hyper Grace!?!


    huperpleonazó: to abound exceedingly
    Original Word: ὑπερπλεονάζω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: huperpleonazó
    Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-er-pleh-on-ad’-zo)
    Short Definition: I am exceedingly abundant
    Definition: I abound exceedingly, am exceedingly abundant.

    5250 hyperpleonázō (from 5228 /hypér, “beyond” and 4121 /pleonázō, “many, being great in number”) – properly, to make exceedingly plentiful (literally “very numerous, numerically abundant”), beyond counting (what can be numbered).

    5250 /hyperpleonázō (“super-abounded beyond numbering”) is only used in 1 Tim 1:14. Here Paul testifies of the Lord’s grace, causing faith and love in his life to exceedingly increase (be very great in number). As a strengthened form of 5428 /phrónēsis (“more than”), 5250 /hyperpleonázō (“makes super-plentiful”) very emphatically expresses the continuous way God will inbirth faith, through divine love, in the yielded believer to a frequency that exceeds all description and expectation!

    [5250 (hyperpleonázō) means more than “make abundant,” but rather “super, exceedingly abundant” (Souter).]

    Word Origin
    from huper and pleonazó
    to abound exceedingly
    NASB Translation
    more than abundant (1).

  10. First of all I believe we are saved by grace and covered with the righteousness of Christ when we first believe and trust Him to save us from sin. There is no way to earn this by our own works of supposed righteousness. I’m not into unconditional eternal security but I do believe once we come to Christ and are genuinely saved, we may be tempted to sin but the power to overcome sin is there with us. If we truly are saved, “born again” by God’s spirit we will be convicted if we sin. If someone uses the marvelous message of grace as justification to sin and still be saved, that person may not have really been saved to begin with. If we love God we will love His word and we will not want to sin. Hyper Grace may have started (I’m only guessing here) as a over reaction or over correction of a strict legalistic background with man made holiness which has so many rules and regulations that people get confused and don’t understand the true way of salvation. It can get confusing when we are taught grace and works, we have to ask, what works and how much to be really saved. Each church denomination or sect has its own set of what they believe holiness is. So hyper grace is probably going to extremes the other way from legalism. Still if we use grace as a license to sin, we’ve missed something, we might not be saved to begin with. Jesus did come to save us from sin so if we still want to sin, something is wrong.

  11. Victoria Bingham Mar 14th 2013

    Thank Your Andrew, for addressing a topic that is sensitive but urgent in the church. I was for many years a member of a ‘research teaching and fellowship’ church whose overarching theme – though it was not called this – was and is, ‘hyper grace’. It destroys people.

    The Christians that fall under its spell, become cold hearted and arrogant. The degree of pride resident in the hearts of the people who buy into this philosophy is astonishing and dangerous.

    In this ministry the members are taught – the believer cannot sin’ or that ‘grace fully covers’, and that ‘we have a savior who is so effective that ‘all hell can’t stop us from getting to heaven’ etc.
    Without the checks and balances that come from the reproof of the holy spirit, their consciences become hardened, and hearts cold.

    This church wholesale rejects the message of the ‘Cross of Christ’. Indeed they are ‘ashamed of it’. We used to make fun of the cross! Suggesting for example, ‘If Christ were killed by a shotgun, would we wear a rifle around our necks”?

    This church tempered NO Trial or Tribulation, NO affliction. Everyone came to church with their ‘happy faces on’, and anyone in difficulty of any kind was said to be ‘not believing’, and scorned.

    I almost stopped going to this group’s meetings in the early 2000’s when I finally had had enough of the coldness and hardness of the members. One man in particular, who struck me as being ‘the epitome of hardness’, prompted me to give up on the thing for a while, [though it had been ‘my church’ since the mid 70’s].

    25 years later, I ran into that man again. He was a physical wreck. He happened to come to my house to ‘hitch a ride to North Carolina’. I was on my way to visit my friend, the wonderful evengelist, Emily Dotson, He had heard that Emily could ‘pray for his health, but he was so unwell, with back & neck surgeries, and cancer that he was unable to drive there himself.

    This ministry missed the golden truth demonstrated by this man’s results – that it was his long term hard-heartedness, which led finally to his body’s breakdown.

    As my son grew up, I occasionally visited ministry meetings, so that he would be exposed to the characteristic, ‘intensive Bible teaching’.

    One Saturday night in 2006, my then husband attempted suicide. My 6 year old son and I were up till the wee hours with the firemen and rescue vehicles which were sent to our home. That Sunday we were to have gone to a local meeting where we’d started to go regularly. Too tired to go, we called this ‘church leader’ to ask for prayer for my son’s dad. The man’s wife informed us that he couldn’t come to the phone.,, as he was ‘getting ready for the meeting’.

    Neither did he call us later that day. In fact, to this very day the ‘minister’ has never asked how any of us fared. (though we stopped going to his ‘church in the home’ from that day) The caring heart simply isn’t developed in this church.

    Caring for and pastoring the flock are ideas entirely missing from this group’s philosophies. Because the general theme is ‘hyper grace’.. believers can do no wrong, and ‘believing’ is EVERYTHING. Anyone who needs ‘help’ or ‘pastoring’ is ‘failing to believe’, and is tacitly or overtly scorned.

    I have never seen cruelty and unkindness in a church, before or since, such as I witnessed there.

    The church? The Way International AND its spinoff ministries.
    [I have seen without fail, that even people who declare they are ‘no longer members of ‘The Way’, still maintain philosophies that differ little from the original cold hearted mentality.]

    Not long ago, i received a blast email from this group of ‘ex Way believers’. A new convert was looking for a place to ‘fellowship’ where the concept of Christ not being God would be embraced. Here it was again, she was well taught. Not looking for a church were ‘love abounded’ but where her ‘doctrine’ would find a welcome home.

    The list of anecdotal evidence of such things could take up the pages of a book. Though such an account would not bless the readers.
    Suffice to say – as Carter Conlon might put it – should you find yourself in a group whose philosophy resembles ‘Hyper Grace’, RUN! Run for your life. The costs of such error are very high. Indeed eternal.

  12. Ejimanze Mar 14th 2013

    When the light of God’s amazing super abundant grace knocked me off my high horse on the night of 21 January 1981, I, like Saul on the way to Damascus, was not even repenting or thinking of following Jesus as I laid me down to sleep that night. The Light and Love of God flooded my being as the Lord dealt with my old man in a night vision and I was gloriously saved by His amazing grace just by believing that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. I was instantly translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Light and Love of God’s dear Son. The transaction was made in an instant, and I knew it. And by His ever abounding grace, I have walked with God these past 32 years – I have scaled the utmost heights and been down the lowest valleys – and by His wondrous grace I am standing, sometimes walking and leaping and praising God, sometimes just trudging on . And as I keep pace in the light of His grace, the Egypt in me will from time to time pop to the surface, I will cry out, and in His abounding grace and love, he laddles off the scum and encourages me to keep keeping on until I hit the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    That is why I do not understand whatever is meant by ‘hyper-grace horrow stories’! God’s grace is hyper, huper – exceeding, super abounding, overflowing. It is like the Sun of Rightheousness, rising with healing in His wings. It is the former and the latter rain, falling on every blade of grass in the field. I am saved by it, and the same hyper grace leads me home. It is God’s goodness and mercy that follows me all the days of my like as I come boldly before the throne of grace and dwell in the presence of the Lord. Are we asking for less grace?

    The Truth is that Salvation is of the Lord. U nor I can’t add one iota of anything to the finished work. All the glory is to the Lamb that was slain – not to the Lamb, and I.

    The terms of the New Testament God established with us are clear. Our part is to do the believing, God’s part is to do the doing:

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
    20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
    Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    Anybody want to pick a quarrel with God for freely saving His people by His hyper-grace? And want to introduce a little Law to keep ‘the people from sinning’? And call that the balanced Truth of the Gospel? Sorry, that won’t fly in this Age of Tabernacles!

  13. Ejimanze Mar 14th 2013

    What believers need to beware of is not hyper-grace, for hypergrace leads to repentance, but counterfeit hyper-grace which leads to licentiousness. And do we because Judas was a thief, and sold the Master for 30 pieces of silver, beware of the 11 other Apostles? That’s my drift.

    Spot on – the brother who made the point that right from day one of salvation there is a Holy Ghost guidance system (Urim and Thummin) installed in the believer. If we look to that anointing, we will be delivered from the many delusions of deceitful religious man.

  14. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    It’s funny really. Folks say that the Hyper-Grace ( what ever that means) preachers are giving folks a “License to Sin”. I say, Christians have been doing a pretty good job sinning without a license……

  15. Mike Stoudenmire Mar 14th 2013

    Do you think it’s just that they refuse God’s gift? Might it be that they know another Jesus? Let us not be distracted by them, but remember our “first love”. We’ll call the others, but that is all we can do. We’ll “seek first His kingdom, and His righteousness”. There comes a time to separate ourselves from evil.

  16. William Mar 14th 2013

    This hyper grace teaching goes right along with the teaching “once saved, always saved” which is just as wrong. If you believe this teaching you also believe that you can do what you want and it is all covered by grace cause you are always saved. So much corruption and false teaching has entered the church.

  17. I think the whole problem is a misunderstanding of what grace is. It’s not like mercy.
    Grace is a verb. It’s an action on the part of God. Go to your bibles & wherever it says grace, write Gods power or divine ability.
    Everywhere you see grace, it’s the power of God at work.
    I’ll give one example:
    Where sin does abound grace does much more abound. What the writer is saying is where sin abounds, grace (Gods ability to not sin) does much more abound.
    The New Covenant is exactly the same as the Old one except for one difference. God will WRITE THE LAWS ON OUR HEARTS AND CAUSE US TO WALK IN THEM. The causing here is Gods grace. He does it in us. Why do mothers & fathers give their lives for their kids….the kids are “written on their hearts”.
    I don’t understand all the nonsense about grace. This dispensation of grace were in is not a time of “walking under grace”, we walk BY grace. In the power of Gods, that’s his grace that is effective & the means by which Paul preached. Grace, power to overcome. Christians have no excuse to sin as there is grace to overcome. Don’t confuse grace with mercy.
    Saved BY grace….by the active power intervention of God….something happens.
    Grace is a verb, an action of God in us as we respond to Him in obedience. It will not happen without obedience.
    Be Blessed – Ian

  18. Apologies I cant respond to any responses to my post as I will be off line for 4 days as from now.

  19. “… Hyper-grace teachers commonly claim that the words of Jesus no longer apply to us…”

    I have heard that doctrine. They say that Paul’s epistles are the foundation of faith, not the Gospels.

    However, Jesus Himself, at the end of His Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:24 ff), said, “he who hears these WORDS OF MINE and does them is like the wise man who built his house on the foundation…”

    How could Jesus have made it any clearer than that?

    He also warned against diluting the commandments of God with the traditions of men (Matthew 15:1-7), which is exactly what has happened here. They’ve nullified all the words of Jesus through another “tradition of men” sic. Dispensationalism.

  20. sharon Mar 14th 2013

    There is a ditch on either side of the road. And what ever way you swerve you will find some fallen brothers and sisters there.
    Keep your eyes on Jesus and follow the straight and narrow way.
    Let your wandering friends grumble and stumble. If some are looking for a way to fulfill the lust of the flesh, they will find a preacher to tell them what they want to hear.
    And yes, some names please. If they are preaching they should be named.

  21. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    I have never heard Grace teachers say the words of Jesus no longer apply to us. What they do say is, that you have to keep in context that Jesus was speaking to Jews under the law.

  22. I heard a Grace Pastor say: We minor on identity in Christ, and major in performance, therefore we have a lot of actors in the church, acting like Jesus, acting like a Christians. If we majored on our identity in Christ we would being like Christ, not acting like him.

    There are the counterfeiters in any theology! I believe the Grace message, and I don’t listen to those that get off the side of the road, however I don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, just because there are some off track, and we shouldn’t lump every Grace person into one catagory

  23. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    Robby, the doctrines for the New Covenant are found in the Epistles. Romans and Hebrews go into great detail about the differences between the New and Old Covenant. Without these Epistles, we would not know that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and gave us the New Covenant based on better promises. The Old made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) did. You only know that because of the Epistles.

  24. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    Well said Linda, well said!!!

  25. This is a big story but ill keep it short.
    It’s not who we are in Christ, its who Christ is in us.
    Who we are can puff us up. We need to die to ourselves & come alive to Him. When we know who He is, in us, were changed.
    too much us & not enough of Him

  26. Children of Israel saw His works, Moses knew His ways & we are called to know Him. To know Him is life eternal, in Him are all the riches…. come to me all ye who labor, they who know their God will do exploits etc etc & many more.
    All will be done BUY His grace ie His power/ability.
    i cannot understand how people get grace confused & make the statements they do which are completely opposite to what grace really is. Grace deals with what people are saying it allows. I just cannot understand it!!!!

  27. The very first comment above: “…What I do not understand here is, when people hear a message like this in a group setting, Why are they not convicted in their hearts that this is wrong?…”

    I’d say that often, we hear something that we we take as an unguarded statement, assuming that if we were to press the speaker one-on-one, they’d say, “Oh of course! I certainly didn’t mean THAT!” In many cases, that’s true, and we’d only have to sit under a few more sermons by the same speaker to be able to put his words into context.

    The question to ask is, are people being transformed through the teaching of that church or Bible teacher? That’s the FRUIT.

    The same One who said “Judge not”, also said, “You’ll know them by their FRUIT.” Finding FAULT and finding FRUIT isn’t the same thing. However, those who don’t have any good fruit to show will still accuse us of judging.

  28. Choosing to focus on God’s Love for Us (through Grace) and ignoring how we can love Him back (through obedience to His commands – John 14:15) is the very definition of a “One-sided relationship”

  29. Anything hyper is bad in my opinion. Too much or too fast or in an over abundance is not conducive to the Christian goal of living. As previously said we need balance in scriptural interpretation. A discipline or doctrine must be in agreement with ALL of Scripture. Grace is good and scriptural in the proper place. We have to find a way to balance everything we learn from the Word of God in our human existence. Everything in balance is the key to a peaceful life. Hyper grace is one doctrine taken to the extreme…out of balance and it tips the scale terribly. The reason it’s so appealing is because it lets the flesh off the hook totally and gives license to sinful carnal behavior without Divine restraint. Totally wrong. If that were the case why would we so desperately need the Holy Spirit? And we all do need the Holy Spirit to help us live holy and turn from our natural sin nature and it’s habits. There is no getting around this biblical truth.

  30. alphfaith Mar 14th 2013

    Wow! Now the unfinished antidotal story of people whose walk in Christ is not yet finished or broken flees grace for legalism and again makes Christ non-effect. Where is the list of horror stories about those trying to please God through the flesh? There are many more – beginning with Martin Luther and a long time before him.
    Well here is one – after serving faithfully in the very law-based, works oriented denomination Church of God Cleveland TN, God called me to pastor and I began a mission under their denomination. Shortly thereafter He ask me to do, what at the time, was no easy thing – to leave the denomination. I wrote a loving letter to state headquarters informing them of my decision along with my credentials.
    I was informed that if I left the Church, all property belonging to our mission work would be confiscated and was. Local COG pastors, friends of mine to this day were ordered to arrive with a truck and take all our stuff. You cannot imagine the difficulty I had explaining to young, recently saved men in the Church of their decision. They (COG)wanted to do this at night, in the cover of darkness. I said no! What you do, do it in the light of day. After much counsel with the young men of our Church, I convinced them to come and help these pastors and Church officials load all that we had purchased – chairs, tables, Sunday school materials, toilet paper, cleaning supplies etc, etc – all of it. Including a video camera not yet completely paid for, as well as going to the bank and cleaning out our account – in full. We served them donuts and coffee, of which they would not partake.
    We moved on and God blessed us quickly. However, I am not keeping score, just stating the truth – two of the local pastors who stood with the denominations choice and helped load up our property, soon fell from the ministry in sexual sin and were forced out. Go figure. This broke my heart and still does. Through this process I learned, at least in part, why the Lord ask me to leave. This denomination, at least at that time, prided itself on sanctification, whatever that is or means, all have their own accepted version of it, in their case it meant personal holiness or may I say, navigation between the rocks of what the Church defined as unacceptable behavior.
    Shortly before the outing of one of these pastors, a mutual friend and member of the pastor’s Church, made this statement to me. “At our Church, you can’t even park cars if you so much as smoke cigarettes.” He parked cars, was an usher as well as other duties in their Church.
    This brother died as he never recovered from a pain pill addiction he secretly hid for fear of being ostracized. Prior to his death, we counseled him to receive God’s grace over the situation and to come out from under the law which produced overwhelming guilt and shame in his life, further compelling his addiction. HIs response was, “why don’t you just grace this!” with a vulgar gesture. So sad, because this brother loved the Lord and was with me and witnessed, the day, through the power of Christ, we raised a man from the dead, leading him to Christ, only to be the last person’s on earth to speak with him this side of heaven. All glory is Christ’s, for I am an unprofitable servant, only doing what was expected of me. He told this story with great joy until the day of his passing.
    I could go on with more examples of how the law produces sin through the weakness of the flesh.
    Folks, grace is not the reason for sin – call it hyper or whatever. Grace is the answer and remedy for the sinful passions aroused by the law.
    Condemn a Christian for a great sin and blame it on grace and I promise you, the sin in your own life which you think is small, will grow into something which cannot be hidden. It will grind you to the end of your self-righteousness. This is the will of God, that we learn, nothing short of the grace of God will permit any of us into the celestial glories of our Holy God and heaven.

    Be careful my precious Brother/Sister that you trample not under foot the blood of the covenant, doing spite to the Holy Spirit of grace.

    If we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than that which was first delivered unto you… count them as though they never existed. Who was Paul warning the Galation’s about? Judaizers, legalist, those who demanded compliance to fleshly behaviors – everyone has their own set of what they think pleases God – accusing others of what they exclude in their own lives, while excusing themselves of what others accuse them of. Like a dog chasing its tail, one trying to push a rope or catch a ghost – striving for a non-existent, abstract plateau which does not exist in human flesh.
    Show me a man who is morally perfect and unsaved and you have shown me one who will not get one inch off the ground when Jesus comes. Show me a man who struggles with sinful practices who has believed on the finished work and grace of Christ and you have shown me one who will put off corruption and mortality at the voice of the archangel and the trump of God.
    The Gentile Church was never to be introduced to the law of Moses, yet legalist such as some here want to bring Believers back unto the bondage by insisting that self-righteousness is accepted in God’s sight above simple faith in the finished work of Christ.
    People really do find it easier to feel good about their relationship with God when a simple list of rules and regulations maybe complied with to prove the validity of their salvation. Yet, such thinking produces the greatest sin – pride, arrogance and a complete undoing of the power of the gospel of grace and truth.

    Col 2:20-23 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — 21 (some say)”Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. NKJV Zero, zilch, notta, none – no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Paul said again –
    Rom 7:8-9 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. NKJV
    Rom 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.NKJV
    Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:”Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” NKJV
    Rom 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. NKJV
    Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. NKJV
    Gal 5:4-6 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV
    Gal 5:7-10 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. NKJV
    Gal 2:20-21 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” NKJV
    Yes my friends, I’ll cling to the old rugged cross, which supplies the grace of God for eternall life – in spite of my sinful passions which from time to time are aroused by the law.
    Do I sin? Yes! Do I want to? No! When do I sin? When I seek righteousness via the law. Am I forgiven? A thousand times yes!
    Do I deserve it? No! Did Christ deserve to die? No! He laid down HIs life for me – a sinner. Do I get off scott free – I do, because He did not. My sin came with a price – and Christ alone paid it!
    I warn each of you in the Lord – cease your war against the grace of God, before the Lord exposes in you, the sin that lay in your flesh! That which is secret will come to light in your lives. Preaching against sin does not make it go away – grace does.
    I love you all!

  31. Barry Schmidt Mar 14th 2013

    These stories are sad indeed. The Bible clearly says that grace (true authentic grace of our Lord Jesus) ” teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live holy and upright lives while we wait for the blessed hope the glorious appearing if our Lord Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:14

    The devil’s strategy NEVER CHANGES. He pushes the fakes and the phonies into abuse of the gospel IN ORDER TO PUT FEAR INTO GODS TRUE SHEEP OF THAT WHICH THEY ARE MOST IN NEED OF- in this case God’s grace.

    If us shepherds are foolish enough to take Satan’s bait and avoid the true grace of God or play into Satan’s hand and actually speak against the gospel of grace THEN WE WILL BE THE ONES WHO WILL HAVE TO ANSWER TO JESUS ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.
    Ezekiel’s warning to us shepherds still stands:

    Is it too slight a thing for you that you should feed in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? As for My flock, they must eat what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!'” (Ezekiel 34:18, 19 NASB)

    Be careful my fellow shepherds that in your warnings against ” hyper grace” that you don’t trample the good food of biblical grace down with your own feet! And end up in the same condemnation along with those who turn the grace of God into a licence for sin.

  32. Kevin please explain what you mean by “focus on Gods love (through grace)” I don’t understand that statement.
    Quite a few posts back I put my understanding of grace. I would like to hear any differing understandings on it. There seems to be a lot of confusion because there is not a clear understanding of what it is.
    Here is my post on grace:….comments please.
    Grace is a verb. It’s an action on the part of God. Go to your bibles & wherever it says grace, write Gods power or divine ability.
    Everywhere you see grace, it’s the power of God at work.
    I’ll give one example:
    Where sin does abound grace does much more abound. What the writer is saying is where sin abounds, grace (Gods ability to not sin) does much more abound.
    The New Covenant is exactly the same as the Old one except for one difference. God will WRITE THE LAWS ON OUR HEARTS AND CAUSE US TO WALK IN THEM. The causing here is Gods grace. He does it in us. Why do mothers & fathers give their lives for their kids….the kids are “written on their hearts”.
    I don’t understand all the nonsense about grace. This dispensation of grace were in is not a time of “walking under grace”, we walk BY grace. In the power of Gods, that’s his grace that is effective & the means by which Paul preached. Grace, power to overcome. Christians have no excuse to sin as there is grace to overcome. Don’t confuse grace with mercy.
    Saved BY grace….by the active power intervention of God….something happens.
    Grace is a verb, an action of God in us as we respond to Him in obedience. It will not happen without obedience.
    Be Blessed – Ian

  33. David, I hope I didn’t sound like I undervalue the Epistles of Paul and Hebrews. There’s some wonderful revelation in them that we all need to make a part of us.

    We just need to keep in mind that they were written to churches that had already been grounded on the sayings of Jesus. The early church was birthed on His sayings, and they taught them to each other, along with the only Scriptures they had then, which was the Torah and the Prophets. That sort of foundation prevented them from taking Paul’s words out of context, which Peter warned in his epistle (II Peter 3:15, 16).

  34. Barry Schmidt Mar 14th 2013

    Amen Alphafaith. Keep standing for and defending the truth my brother. There are many enemies of the true gospel of grace. Whose hope is in themselves and who have become enemies of the cross because they want to justify their own self righteousness rather than glory in the righteousness of God that comes by faith alone. They do this so they can boast in themselves rather than in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.

    Don’t give in to the legalists for a moment my brother and God will reward you.

  35. I have many friends who have embraced this message….but I would venture to say that a slightly diluted form of this affects much of the church in our day, in the same way the prosperity doctrine or some form of it, is part of the message today in large numbers of churches. And yes, if you believe in living a holy life, and adhering to the scripture you will be called a “legalist”….I do believe it is all part of a sifting that God is doing. None of it will be effective or helpful in the coming days, only the true message of Christ will hold us….I believe that if there is time, many of these ones will turn back to the only truth that really changes lives and offers victory….if there is time….

  36. alphfaith Mar 14th 2013

    Thank you Barry – I have no other place to go, but Christ and His grace!

  37. Barry Schmidt Mar 14th 2013

    Ian- YEA AND AMEN MY BRO! Grace is Gods love in action in and through His people! To speak of “hyper grace” is a misnomer . To underplay or down play grace is to downplay trusting in Jesus. It is to downplay Jesus!

    Grace is the sanctifying power of Jesus!!

  38. Amen Alphfaith and Barry.

    Every blessing

  39. In Gal. 5: 22-23, Self-control is a “fruit” of the Spirit! If you let Jesus do the cleansing, it is as Fine Linen, however if we do the cleansing it as filthy rags. I prefer fine linen and the fruit of the Spirit! It is a true and perfect cleansing!

  40. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    It’s time we put some responsibility on the hearer of the Grace message. I have listened to several Grace teachers and they in no way, shape or form condone sin. If A person takes what they hear and twist it to fit their own agenda, then the teacher is not responsible. If folks want to continue in sin, then they will find a way to twist whatever they are hearing to justify their actions. I have to question the salvation of any believer who wants to continue in sin. I sat under law preaching for 50 years. The Grace message to me is life giving. I never felt good enough, holy enough or secure in my Salvation. All I felt was shame, condemnation and failure. If you fall in love with Jesus, you want to be like him. His Grace gives us that ability. I have no desire to sin or allow sin to have any control over me. Because of what Christ did for me, I no longer have to. No matter what I do, I can’t add one single thing to what Christ did for me!!!

  41. Barry Schmidt Mar 14th 2013

    Victoria Bingham- I am deeply sorry that you has to endure so much painful neglect at your time of greatest need from this “leader”. on behalf of all shepherds of Gods people i want to ask for your forgiveness and hope you will be able to find a shepherd who will restore your trust.

    Please don’t blame embracing biblical grace on this leaders behavior. Biblical grace ALWAYS lines up with and causes people to obey the Bible!
    It never would cause them to neglect Gods dear suffering children.

  42. Anthony Donaghey Mar 14th 2013

    Thought-Snippets… 14/3/12

    “…Put on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness…”
    Isaiah 61:3

    I have been feeling somewhat depressed for a while; a lack of joy or purpose; one day blending into another without seam or discernable colour or warmth…
    My profession seems a window into considerable sorrow and despair; the terrible ending of many things and the pain, anger, denial and suffering that goes along with all of that.
    I sat with a couple the other day for a few hours.
    Their pain was everywhere and nowhere all at once.
    For the first hour the man could do nothing but lie on a beanbag.
    The woman talked of pleasant things and we looked through some photographs as she reminisced through the safety of the many mirrored layers of memory…
    I am a bit of a talker; something I am most uncomfortable with; something that bothers me long after I have left the listener’s sight; I am also someone who is a tad too analytical; which is not a good combination; all those hours to be analytical with all those words gibber-gabber’d; torture in the wee small hours, I can tell you now for nothing…
    This couple were spiritually and mentally trying to get to grips with having to put their fifteen year old daughter in the crematorium fires the next day and for once it seems my hours of yik-yak came as a sort of blessing as I was able to distract them away from thoughts so terrible and distressing that I am sure they have been up nights since they first heard the news that tore their hearts asunder…
    In the English language we have a word for everything it seems; sometimes five or six words for the very same thing; however, when it comes to a father and mother putting a child into a coffin; as far as I know, we have not a single word to describe it; perhaps it seemed so dreadful an occurrence we decided it best for all concerned not to label it…
    Occasionally the terrible thoughts appeared to return with a vengeance all their own; the father’s eyes quietly welling up with tears that refused to trickle or fall; just hanging there; like glistening double-glazing to the windows of his tortured soul…
    What do you say?
    What words exist that can take that kind of pain away from another; what phrase is turned so well that it can dry up the limitless wells of unfallen human sorrow?
    Before I left I asked if I could speak of that which was causing all of this hell on earth for these beautiful believers of Jesus.
    I was quietly given permission.
    I told them that when there are no answers; when the tragedy is so great that one can not make sense of anything anymore; it was then that I try to remember exactly who my King is; who the Bible tells me who God really is.
    I opened up the Word and read some of 1st Corinthians 13; telling them first that God is Love and therefore it is fine theologically to replace the word Love, (or Charity in the KJV) with the word God as the love spoken of here is Agape Love; Divine Love; a Love that surpasses all human understanding.
    I gently told them:
    God is long-suffering;
    God is kind;
    God does not envy;
    God is not full of himself;
    God is not puffed up;
    God does not behave in an unseemly manner and He does not seek only after His own self interests.
    God is not easily provoked and He thinks no evil thoughts nor does he rejoice in sinfulness; but He rejoices in The Truth.
    God bears all things.
    God believes all things.
    God hopes all things.
    God endures all things.
    God protects us when we are vulnerable.
    God is a rock to stand on; a shield to hide behind; a fortress to run to; a Father to cling to; a Brother to cry to; a Spirit that comforts when nothing makes sense.
    I told them:
    “God never fails…”
    “When I don’t know the answers; I remember who God is; and hope for a godly outcome trickles into my heart…
    ”God Never Fails…”
    I hugged them as best I could.
    And then I drove the 50 kilometres home feeling utterly useless.
    Later that night I cried…
    I cried uncontrollably.
    This dark and disheartening world simply blurred and trembled before my eyes.
    Yes, I think if fair to say I have been a bit depressed of late and I can’t seem to shake it off; it still clings; a joyless weighty sorrow that follows me everywhere; even into the realms of restless slumber.
    Another nurse told me that we nurses are weighted down because we are acquainted with grief.
    And you know something?
    She’s right.
    My soul reacted to this revelation with shock.
    I am acquainted with grief; sometimes bitterest grief.
    So why do I expect myself always to be a jolly soul?
    Why do I feel a failure for having such heaviness around my heart for so much of my life?
    I recall someone once telling me that the soldiers of God who are on the frontlines of battle are meant to keep their wounds; that these wounds remind them of the suffering of others and that they are kept humble and loving as a direct result; and as nice and poetic as that all sounds I can find nothing in the Bible that suggests that this is anything more than a humanist fantasy fashioned to temporarily ease pain and suffering until blessed forgetfulness has blanketed the heart and soul to a bearable level of remembrance; personally I try not to view anything I do with thoughts quite so grandeur; I just try to do whatever I can do quietly and forget about it as quickly as possible; for as much as I might be acquainted with grief; it is my King who is the one most acquainted with the most overpoweringly bitter of all that can possibly grieve the human heart.
    It is best that I know my place.
    It is best I know the size of sorrow and my heart’s capacity to house it.
    And it is a blessing to realise the limitlessness of the heart of my King and all the sorrow that dwells therein…
    All the sorrow He turned into hope as He left the tomb as empty as sorrow itself…
    “O’ death, where is thy sting?”

  43. Anna M. Mar 14th 2013

    Barry:~Biblical grace ALWAYS lines up with and causes people to obey the Bible!


  44. Its not surprising that people get caught up with this stuff. Anyone who has had to slough-off addictions in there life will tell you that they make excuses to themselves in order to fill that overwhelming desire. It happened in Eden.

    Sin will enslave a person and make them do things that they know are killing them. We convince ourselves its worth it. The flesh is weak.

    It kind of blew my mind to read “we don´t really sin. Our bodies do!” But where is our spirit now if not mingled with the flesh? It made me think of our eternal spirit being trapped in our mortal bodies after death “where the worm dieth not.” Creepy.

  45. Anthony Donaghey Mar 14th 2013

    But what has any of that got to do with the hyper-grace article yo may ask – Read it again and think harder!

  46. Friends I think a lot of the problems were having regarding grace is the way we came to be “saved”.
    I think it stems from the “sinners prayer” & not a correct teaching of the Gospel, the work of the cross & resurrection.
    Understand the suffering, cross & Resurrection of the Lord Jesus & you won’t get caught up in legalism. Legalism voids the work of the cross & grace brings Gods power to help me..Heb: “come to the throne of Grace to find HELP in time of need”. Grace helps us. It’s not passive.
    Another problem as I see it is people don’t prayerfully study Gods Word themselves & just suck up all the preachers stuff. We shoudn’t blame pastors, were to blame.

  47. The New Testament message of justification by faith wasn’t just something pulled out of thin air…God saying…”Well let’s just scrap that and try this”…God’s next big idea because law didn’t work as means to justify men. No! Righteousness was always and still is the basis of whether men would be accepted by God. Justification is a judicial righteousness. A judge pronouncing you righteous based on law. God’s law was the only standard by which a man could be justified with God as his judge. There was no other standard as far as God the judge was concerned.

    Righteousness through law is the only means to gain eternal life. You must be justified and a justification that James 2 says will ultimately be based on what you have done. If I can make a distinction here between “keeping” the law(old testament) and “fulfilling” the law(new testament) I think it will help. That was the message of the Old Testament God, keep the law and you will live.

    Paul’s revelation and response, “By the works of the law shall no man be justified”. Men can’t be justified or righteous through keeping the law therefore keeping the law can’t be the basis of men gaining eternal life. Attempting to keep the law offers no hope for eternity and only reveals men as sinners. Therefore, men are condemned under law and in need of a Savior. The law was to lead us to Christ. “The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ” Gal 3:24

    Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and to give us His life. He did this, not through keeping the law but through fulfilling the law through faith. Rom 3:22. It is through the faith of Christ that He was able to fulfill the law and consequently justify all men who believe in Him. “Through one act of righteousness(the cross) there resulted justification of life to all men” Rom 5:18. Christ, justifying us, by fulfilling the law through faith made the way for all men who believe in Him to have life in Him. “The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith” Gal 3:24.

    Now, the NT message of grace to a believer is Life in Christ as a means to fulfill the righteousness of law. The Old Testament trial was Law as a means to Life, but now the trial is Life as a means to fulfillment of law, aka righteousness. The trial is, will I seek to fulfill righteousness through faith because God has provided all means in Christ to accomplish that goal.

    Christ has become my life. Christ now lives in me. The same faith that Christ had I now have because He lives in me. The same faith that Christ had to fulfill law is the same faith that I have through Him. This is why we must be vigilant to “contend earnestly for the faith” and not let it be perverted into some other message. His faith is to accomplish the same result in me as it did in Him.”The life I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God” Gal 2:20. “This is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 1Jn 5:4. Our faith has already overcome the world because it’s His faith.

    “That the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” Rom 8:4.

    That’s righteousness that fulfills the law just as Christ did, accomplished through faith.

    No longer is keeping the Law held forth as a means to righteousness but faith is held forth, the faith of Christ Himself, as a means to fulfilling righteousness.

    This is “righteousness out of faith” as opposed to “righteousness out of law”. This is the report or hearing of faith. “So faith comes from hearing(report), and hearing(report) by the word of(about) Christ” Rom 10:17.

    What is this report?

    “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” Rom 10:4.

    Christ is not the end of the law because if you aren’t in Christ you are still under law, and Christ is not the end of Righteousness, because His faith is given to produce righteousness BUT Christ is the end of keeping the LAW as a means to righteousness. That is the report or hearing of faith, that keeping the law is no longer a means to righteousness because Christ has fulfilled the law and given us His life and His faith and set us on a track to that same goal in our life.

    Fulfilling the law in the New Testament is always defined in the context of love, fulfilling the law. Not the letter, keeping the law. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is the fulfillment of righteousness.

  48. Now for some horror stories on the other side.

    I recently had two people contact me that were in so much “torment” it shook my soul. One was a guy that had read something I wrote and he was in so much torment that he was going to hell because of just little sins, not even the big stuff. He was just beside himself in fear!

    Then the one that really crushed me was a mamma that her son had just gone home to be with Jesus. She had pleaded God, bargained with God to save her son. Just days after burying her son, she wrote me asked, ” why did God take my son, I must not have been holy enough, he took him because I just wasn’t holy enough”! What do you say to a grieving mamma, that feels she killed her because she wasn’t holy enough!

    You might talk about horror stories with this “hyper-Grace”, but I assure you there are far more horror stories on the other side of the stick, I hear them all the time!

    Isn’t it better that if people are sinning that they come out in the open with it, instead of acting like they don’t sin? If you are acting like Jesus or acting like a Christian, it will come back to bite you, I don’t care how holy you appear!

  49. Only what the mind let’s God do, will He do. Remember what He said from the beginning? He gives you your own WILL. If you choose to accept a Church Doctrine, will you spout said Doctrine and point your fingers to all the other ‘mans accepted thoughts and doctrines’. In following our Savior’s words and statutes, He knows everything back then, now and forever, and can completely lead us as we should go. when we ‘let’ Him. Our will is always interfereing with His process, I don’t care who we are. No one, save a few, but hardly no one can truly understand who He really is and what He can do. We must rely on our ‘earthly’ minds to lead us. God is Spirit, not flesh….I don’t even grasp it all. We are so inamered with what we do know, we reach and teach that, pity us. You are so right there, Ian
    A denomination can read the Bible and decide God’s wrong. He must think along the lines of man to survive.

    John 3:16 and all the other verses told the Glory of Salvation is not right and were emotional moments. God’s not capable of leading His Born Again Sheep to eternal life..they’ll all stumble in ‘sin’ with whatever sins and be lost again. Why? Well I’m Saved and I still sin! He warned us in Heb. 6.
    Why did He wait until Heb’s to warn us that we could loose our Salvation? Why didn’t he put those scriptures at the beginning of the Gospels? Lots of beautiful people have their noses bent out of shape on this doctrine, William for one. Yes, William by Grace, He saved us, unmerited Grace, not works. One has to Trust Him, to believe that. I’m Baptist/Pentecostal, but still my ‘earthly’ mind cannot accept Conditional Salvation. Pentecostals shudder at “once saved, always saved’, their term, for heritical teachings. Can man keep coming back over and over again? Either God knows His Sheep, or man can keep changing His mind over and over again. I suppose I trust God too much.
    He knows everything, can do everything. I don’t know and I can’t do. But then He’s always been Perfect. We never will be on earth; He told us so. By grace He found a way, Before the World was created. Now He leads the Way with obedience and the love we learn every step of our saved way. And ‘sin’, like Him, we will also hate, any kind of ‘sin’. and magnify our true love in Him.

    I don’f want to pick on them, for Heaven’s sake, but the ones that are picked on with much froth I believe,are the Catholics. Their doctrine is very iffy; however, in what I deem as knowledge, we Christians are going to be mighitly surprised when we get to Heaven.

  50. Hyper grace, if you want to call it that, is the most dangerous perversion of the gospel there is. It stops at justification by faith without works and dismisses the clear Biblical instruction that justification is by works and not by faith alone. This is the error that reformed theology fell into. That a person isn’t required to live righteously because he has already been declared righteous.

    Justification by faith without works applies to the sinner who is condemned under law with no way of being justified under law. The sinner must put his faith in Jesus who came to fulfill the law and redeem him from the curse of the law. Once a sinner has been justified under law and has received the gift of eternal life then he comes into a new economy of grace where he will be justified by works and not by faith alone.

    These two perspectives answer to the two major economies of God’s dealings with men, Law and Grace. This is the key, understanding that justification or being declared righteous before God is necessary to both economies for the believer. He is coming out from one economy(Law) and entering into another(Grace). This is why the Bible can say in Rom 5:1 “We have been justified by faith” and can say in Gal 2:17 “But if while seeking to be justified in Christ…” One has already happened for the christian and one is what we are seeking for in Christ.

    Under Law, we are condemned as sinners without hope of ever attaining a righteousness that God can accept. We have been justified by faith without works because Jesus has done the work of fulfilling the Law for us. Our faith is directed toward Him Who has accomplished a righteousness in our behalf. He is the only One who can fulfill the Law for us. That’s where the “not of works” part comes in because we can’t keep God’s Law, Jesus has to do it. This how we “have been” justified. The “not of works” is restricted to this part of our justification.

    Paul argues against dead works or a legal basis of earning your salvation. James argues against dead faith or a lawless basis of living as a christian with no requirement of righteousness. Paul is addressing the threat to a sinner’s salvation from the standpoint of salvation by works. James is addressing the threat to a believers salvation thru a doctrine of lawless living and compromising with sin. They are two halves of the whole.

    Stated from both positions, the dead works of a sinner can’t save him and the dead faith of a believer can’t save him.

    Faith without works saves the sinner but faith without works won’t save the believer. It’s dead faith. It produces no fruit. This is James argument.
    Faith without works has the same meaning as faith alone. Faith alone is the term James uses to explain the misapplication of faith without works to the wrong party, to the christian instead of the sinner.

  51. Hi Ian, I might have been able to word that better. My point is, people focus on God’s Love for them, and ignore the way in which they could love God back (through obedience). God does love us, because He has grace for us (which also means undeserved favor). We all don’t deserve His Love … I know I sure don’t. But if we keep focusing on how much He loves us to the exclusion (or minimizing) the role of obedience in our relationship, it is definitely one-sided.

    I actually liked what you had to say about the New Covenant vs. the Old Covenant. So we’re probably in agreement there.

  52. Were in agreement Kevin.
    I believe grace is Gods undeserved favor. What is favor? It is God favoring you with something, something He is doing or going to do. Favor is not passive. If you select one person out of a group & tell one of them he has your favor, he will expect something from you, some kind of action to show your favor or else what is favor then? That’s why I know that grace….Gods favor, is a verb, an action on Gods part to or through me.
    That’s why I cannot understand all the hassling around grace!!! Hyper grace to me would be God doing hyperstuff in & through me, His power manifest in a hyper way.
    Grace is NOT passive as so many of the posts & this hypergrace thing suggests.

  53. Robert Mar 14th 2013

    In a few quick words here and this is jesus speaking in the New Testament at about 90 A.D.. “I hate the deeds of the Nicolatains.”
    Coming to Christ was never a license to sin. Bringing your little spotless sheepy or goat in the old testament on the Day of Atonement was never an excuse to continue in sin. If it was, it is no different than the Catholic doctrine of indulgences to pay for your sins.
    So many are taking the grace of God in vain anymore. If someone is a true Christian, they will begin to hate the sins they were once so proud of and call on God’s grace to clean them up through sanctification of the Holy Spirit. God’s grace is sufficient and will bring us into a more and more holy lifestyle if we let Him but His grace isn’t there for us TO sin. He didn’t die for this reason and to mock His payment for our sins is disgusting—totalllllly disgusting!!!!!

  54. goodwordtoday Mar 14th 2013

    Well, I’ve read a lot of the comments on this site and the Charisma site and I had never heard of “hypergrace” before today. I’ve heard of once saved always saved which in my mind amounts to kinda the same thing. People who aren’t concerned that they are not being conformed into the image of Christ more and more every day and believe that just because they prayed some “salvation prayer” that they are good to go no matter what will have another think coming on the day of judgment.

    And those who are citing the apostle Paul as a hypergrace supporter or founder should read the following which clearly states that we should lead holy lives. And that’s not the only place Paul talks about holiness and the need for it. He also says that God’s grace doesn’t act as a license to sin (see Rom 6:15). Read your whole Bible, folks. God’s grace gives us the power to resist sin but we have to exercise that power. If we don’t, sin will swallow us and we will ultimately turn our backs on God.

    I don’t know how much clearer it can get—1 Thess 4: 4-12. Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

    3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[a] us His Holy Spirit.

    9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, 12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

    Nobody in the Bible ever said that being a follower of Christ was going to be easy. In fact – just the opposite. If you want easy, go to Staples.

  55. This is a very important theme that the body of Christ should have true discernment on. Micheal Brown and others are doing a wonderful job to bring this to the light.

  56. chas351 Mar 14th 2013


    Well said brother.. i too was saved miraculously by His Grace in 1987.(there was no preacher, no sermon, nobody, not one person present) God just gave me a daytime vision of end times while looking out of my kitchen window.. it was so dramatic and life changing, i thought i had lost my mind.., BUT soon after God gave me supernatural guidance to meet people who showed me the Bible and taught me the basics, I have never belonged to any denomination except Jesus and growing in His Word and stature.

    It’s all Grace… all Grace… His Mighty GRACE.

    Jn10:27, Is54:13, Jn6:45

    what you have written i relate to personally.

    Thank You for sharing.
    Num 6:24-26

  57. miss bridgewater Mar 14th 2013

    I dont believe in words created that have no real meaning like hyper grace, i think these people enjoy sin and loved parties, to begin with. God said our weakness in sin, is his strength as he pours it out, and Paul also said all things are lawful but not beneficial. Bottom line is common sense. If your free to do something, instead of being restricted, it looses its affect. LIke eating all the chocolate ya want, eventually it will no longer be as desired, Same thing with internet porn for self grat. Been through this, and if you desire the lord more he will just take over and sin is less and less and less a factor. Time process………..

  58. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    I would love to hear your comments on 1 John 3:9.

  59. alphafaith Mar 14th 2013


    You wrote: “Nobody in the Bible ever said that being a follower of Christ was going to be easy. In fact – just the opposite. If you want easy, go to Staples.”

    Matt 11:28-30 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is EASY and My burden is LIGHT.” NKJV

    As for me, I want easy! And since Staples cannot help me spiritually, I will keep going to Christ for my spiritual needs.

    After 30 years in the faith, I find His yoke is easy and His burden light. Praise be to the name of Christ forever, who alone saves to the uttermost.

    grace, peace and love from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be yours.

  60. Serenity Mar 14th 2013

    I think we need to balance Scripture with Scripture on this issue, as Ps. Wayne wrote, to find the truth.
    A bit of commonsense helps too.

    It should be obvious that any ‘Christian’ who throws themselves into revelling and godless living is NOT on the path to eternal life with the Lord.
    The same with those who despise holy-living Christians.
    However, if they repent from the heart, they will be saved.

    My close friend believes the ‘once saved, always saved’ idea. Ie, if a person truly decided for Christ one time, they would end up in Heaven no matter how godless and fruitless their lifestyle. Horrible !

    My friend and the whole stream she is a part of, believe this way because they refuse to be filled with the Holy Spirit. They are cessationists.
    Having refused God’s command to be filled with His Spirit, they know they don’t have the power to live above the dictates of the flesh, so they backtrack and say that GOD has withdrawn His empowering grace and therefore He must accept a low standard of holiness from them. Horrible also !

    We are responsible for what we choose to believe, and for the behaviours that come from what we chose to believe.

  61. Anna M. Mar 14th 2013

    The yoke is easy (only) for the compliant in nature. Yokes in that day were generally a double yoke. Two had to work together as one. Going the same direction with the same goals. One mind and one body through a yoking. One animal had to continually defer to the lead of the other. If not, there would be great discomfort and duress on both. Not much progress, and alot of wasted time and energy. Many want to walk with Christ while doing their own will and going their own direction. His burden IS light, when we desire his will above our own. He then bears the weight of our otherwise..waywardness. Very good concept, @ alphafaith!

    Matt 11:28-30 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is EASY and My burden is LIGHT.” NKJV

  62. Lightning Storm Mar 14th 2013

    Some really good posts here! There are some people who are PERSONALLY acquainted with God’s Gift of Grace.

    Dorna had a very good point.

    And Amen to Ejimanze when he wrote:

    “The Truth is that Salvation is of the Lord. U nor I can’t add one iota of anything to the finished work. All the glory is to the Lamb that was slain – not to the Lamb, and I. ”

    And an Amen to Ian’s comments.

    ESPECIALLY these comments Ian wrote:

    “The New Covenant is exactly the same as the Old one except for one difference. God will WRITE THE LAWS ON OUR HEARTS AND CAUSE US TO WALK IN THEM. The causing here is Gods grace. He does it in us. ”


    As I, Lightening Storm, have said in other posts on Grace.

    Grace is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Grace…..HE is THE GIFT TO US. HE is THE POWER WITHIN US to BE TRANSFORMED FROM WITHIN.

    And may I add a little note to people who are “shocked” and “dismayed” by their fellow “christians” sinning up a storm after so many years of being “humble, holy, faithful” etc etc etc.

    If all people are EXPECTING from themselves and others is GOOD MORAL BEHAVIOR, then THAT IS ALL THEY WILL GET!!!

    But is that what Jesus died for? Is that what He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell inside of us for?


    What has God done that is TEMPORARY?
    What do the scriptures call the things that are TEMPORARY, FLEETING, OF NO PROFIT?

    People are believing the words of COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS these days, and then when the TRUE NATURE of that person IS EXPOSED, then people make up a NEW DOCTRINE about losing one’s salvation.

    Behavior Modification by learning and obeying the rules and regulations is NOT OF GOD. It is COUNTERFEIT.


    The DEVIL quoted perfect scripture to Jesus in the wilderness AND in the Garden.
    Judas fit in with the other Disciples for 3 1/2 years, and yet Jesus said Judas was of the devil!

  63. Anna M. Mar 14th 2013

    Grace and Rain ~ Charles Spurgeon

    Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? Job 38:25-27

    God challengeth man to compare with his Maker even in the one matter of the rain. Can he create it? Can he send a shower upon the desert, to water the lone herbs which else would perish in the burning heat? No, he would not even think of doing such a thing. That generous act cometh of the Lord alone.

    We shall work out a parallel between grace and rain.

    We say of rain and of grace, God is the sole Author of it.
    He devised and prepared the channel by which it comes to earth. He hath “divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters.” The Lord makes a way for grace to reach his people.
    He directs each drop, and gives each blade of grass its own drop of dew, to every believer his portion of grace.
    He moderates the force, so that it does not beat down or drown the tender herb. Grace comes in its own gentle way. Conviction, enlightenment, etc., are sent in due measure.
    He holds it in his power. Absolutely at his own will does God bestow either rain for the earth, or grace for the soul.

    Grace waits not man’s observation. As the rain falls where no man is, so grace courts not publicity.
    Nor his cooperation. It ”tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men” (Mic. 5:7).
    Nor his prayers. Grass calls not for rain, yet it comes. ”I am found of them that sought me not” (Isa. 65:1).
    Nor his merits. Rain falls on the waste ground.
    “Ah, grace, into unlikeliest hearts, It is thy wont to come; The glory of thy light to find; In darkest spots a home.”

    It falls where there is no trace of former showers, even upon the desolate wilderness: so does grace enter hearts which had hitherto been unblessed, where great need was the only plea which rose to heaven (Isa. 35:7).
    It falls where there seems nothing to repay the boon. Many hearts are naturally as barren as the desert (Isa. 35:6).
    It falls where the need seems insatiable, “to satisfy the desolate.” Some cases seem to demand an ocean of grace, but the Lord meets the need; and his grace falls where the joy and glory are all directed to God by grateful hearts. Twice we are told that the rain falls “where no man is.” When conversion is wrought of the Lord, no man is seen. The Lord alone is exalted.

    The rain gives joy to seeds and plants in which there is life. Budding life knows of it; the tenderest herb rejoices in it. So is it with those who begin to repent, who feebly believe, and thus are just alive.
    The rain causes development. Grace also perfects grace. Buds of hope grow into strong faith. Buds of feeling expand into love. Buds of desire rise to resolve. Buds of confession come to open avowal. Buds of usefulness swell into fruit.
    The rain causes health and vigour of life. Is it not so with grace?
    The rain creates the flower with its colour and perfume, and God is pleased. The full outgrowth of renewed nature cometh of grace, and the Lord is well pleased therewith.
    Let us acknowledge the sovereignty of God as to grace.
    Let us cry to him for grace.
    Let us expect him to send it, though we may feel sadly barren, and quite out of the way of the usual means of grace.

    ~ Charles Spurgeon

  64. quote David Markham wrote: I would love to hear your comments on 1 John 3:9. quote

    I think you have to take all the other scriptures with it. I John 3:4-9.

    Which says; whoever abides in Him will not sin. Its the abiding that makes the difference.

    I don’t think this means a Christian will never sin because the scripture says, If anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father.

    1 John 2:
    2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    Take for instance Smith Wigglesworth, a man mightly used of the Lord. At the beginning of his ministry he admitted he had a real problem with anger. One day after spending time fasting the Lord delivered him from the sin of anger.

    Not the best of examples but I do not think we can say we have no sin.

    I John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


  65. Truthseeker Mar 14th 2013

    I am not surprised about hyper grace, name and claim it, once saved always saved, playing about with signs and wonders, using entertainment to get bums of seats, ecumenicalism, prosperity teaching, restorationism, dominionism, christian spiritualism, charismania, replacement theology, and other false doctrines which dominate the modern church. After all, we are told by its leadership not to expose them, criticise those involved because this is judgemental, it may be of God, and to work alongside them and accept each and everyone as christians.
    Because of this advice we are told to treat each circumstance at their merits.
    I was once a alcoholic before coming to Christ. I remained a alcoholic as a christian. The Lord dealt with this problem by sending me to a brewery to work as one of its staff. Seeing the brewing techniques and some of the preservatives used, this was effective than what my local church could offer in dealing with my alcoholicism.
    If fact, with the hyper grace solution and its teaching of what I did in drinking the stuff, I would have died of liver failure a long time ago.
    I thank the Lord that I listened to Him and for sending me to work at the brewery, because in those days, jobs were not being advertised due to a postal strike which lasted a long time.
    If I had not this job, I could not afford to go to church because of its emphasis on money to keep the church projects going. But having some money to live on, and my alcohol problem sorted, I left because in remaining, my death would have been physical.
    Now does this make sense?

  66. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    Gary, I agree we must look at all the verses in the context. The thing that stands out to me is how boldly John declared, “he cannot sin”. I find that very interesting.

  67. David Markham Mar 14th 2013

    Truth seeker, you really lumped a lot of teachings together. Some of those were in error, some were good but the hearer to them to excess.

  68. Richard Savage Mar 14th 2013

    Well! There does appear to be some amount of disagreement here. Legalists versus Gracists. Not to mention hyper-gracists.

    How about we cut to the chase? What is the base service entrusted to disciples of Jesus? Answer:

    Reconciling man to God.

    Such divisions as we read here, such disagreements, such disputations – they endless.

    There’s a saying in the UK, the devil is in the detail.

    Now, why are we not about reconciling man to God, not man to our understanding of the Bible. Don’t understand there’s many crowns in that!

  69. miss bridgewater Mar 14th 2013

    Once saved always saved, grace, hyper grace, interesting how people talk bad about these things, but it is all these things that brought the most incredible joy to my christian life, JOY! and knowing that Jesus rightousness had been put on me! while still a sinner! Because of these things, I have truely repented and without alot of effort, so much of the world has easily fallen off! I no longer love my life because of these what are being called heracies. LOL Much easier way for sin to just leave, and these are it, so why is it so hard for others to believe in it? Maybe its the works folks who dont have the spirit of truth in them, and just are blind, deaf and dumb as dogs.

  70. Darren Sargent Mar 14th 2013

    These are great and weighty matters we are grappling with here friends.

    No one who was ever saved was saved by anything other than true, authentic grace. However, it will appear that some who thought they knew grace did not.

    Here are some words from Karl Barth that may help:

    “GOSPEL and LAW:

    Anyone who wishes to correctly approach our subject must speak first of the Gospel. This makes us think immediately of that 430-year interval after which, according to Gal 3:17, the Law followed the promise. It must follow the promise, but it must follow the promise. And while the Law follows the promise, the fulfilment follows it in turn, and this fulfilment, only this, contains the Law’s own fulfilment. The Law would not be the Law if it were not hidden and enclosed in the ark of the covenant. And the Gospel, too, is only the Gospel if the Law-that which “came in between” (Rom 5:20)-is hidden and enclosed in it as in the ark of the covenant. The Gospel is not Law, just as the Law is not Gospel; but because the Law is in the Gospel, from the Gospel, and points to the Gospel, we must first of all know about the Gospel in order to know about the Law, and not vice-versa.”

  71. Roger (NZ) Mar 14th 2013

    Through our walk in Christ Jesus – we meet those who walk under the law, in the flesh, or in the Spirit;

    Legalism (law) – a Christian does NOT sin – and is saved by works

    License (flesh) – a Christian has freedom TO sin (the cross covers ALL sin) – and is saved without works

    Liberty (spirit) – a Christian has the freedom NOT TO sin – and is saved for works

    Christ Jesus came to set us free from bondage, when we are truly abiding in Him, then we have liberty, we walk in the Holy Spirit.

    Through this Christian walk, it isn’t that we are perfect yet, it is that we are free from the power of sin, therefore, we have a choice, we have the freedom NOT TO sin, if we choose.

    Paul explains this when he said that what he would not do, he did. John explains that when, as a Christian we sin, we repent and are cleansed/forgiven. Neither suggested that it was OK to sin, quite the opposite – yet I believe that both recognised that born-again Christians do sin through their life.

    It is what we do with that ‘sin’ when we know we have sinned.

    When I look back over my Christian walk, even after baptism in the Holy Spirit, I know that I have sinned – I didn’t plan to, didn’t want to – but I did. The indwelling Holy Spirit would prompt, counsel, convict me of this sin – I would repent.

    Justification – is to be set free from the penalty of sin – occurs when we repent, believe, accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and are born again.

    Sanctification – is to be set free from the power of sin – is ongoing through our Christian walk with Lord Jesus

    Glorification – is to be free from the presence of sin – occurs when we are translated (twinkling of an eye) and receive glorified, eternal, bodies.

  72. Darren Sargent Mar 14th 2013

    Some thoughts on Law and Grace by Art Katz

    “In my conversations with my unsaved rabbi friends, we frequently reach a snag. Though we are totally dedicated in our pursuit of the same God—I by grace, and he by Law—it is difficult for me to express why I am unable to “keep the commandments” he thinks incumbent upon any who profess to believe in God.

    I try to communicate that something epochal has transpired with the Advent of the Messiah that affects all categories, and especially that of ‘law keeping.’ That somehow to go back to the prescription of these clearly biblical requirements is somehow to put one’s self into bondage to the ‘beggarly elements’ and make void, and of no account, the finished work of Jesus at the Cross.

    I am helped today by the remarks of Eugene Peterson in his devotional reading for March 2 in the book, Living the Message. In it he says, “The law and the prophets and the writings are set under the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ and made to work for our salvation.” That is, if I understand him correctly, they are subsumed in a new way as to function salvationally, perform something of a life-changing kind not possible before the Advent of Christ. Further, the mystery and power of “the incarnation works retroactively on all Scripture and reshapes it in this final vision.” This is not to mean that anything of the original meaning and use of Scripture is in any way lost, let alone denigrated. Rather, something new is added or supplied with the Advent of Messiah that was not there before! The Lord’s words, “I make all things new,” take on new dimensions of meaning that enhance, all the more, the faith and walk of the believer. Ironically, this same newness confounds those outside that faith, like our dear rabbis.

    Peterson goes on to say, “The [New Testament] does not add to what is already there, but shows how all Scripture is put to work in the church and the world.” It is not “as some have assumed, a change of strategy on God’s part after the original plan of salvation turned out not to work; it is the original plan itself, working powerfully, gloriously and triumphantly.”

    Our failure to have comprehended and appropriated this interconnectedness between the old and the new will rob us of the glory intended, and will rob the Jew of the witness intended to move him to envy. Perhaps we have been guilty, more than we know, of trivializing the New Testament faith in the reducing of its grandeur into principles, doctrines, and formulae. Like Paul, we have not been apprehended that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12). Though we stagger, choke and splutter in giving answer to those whom we seem to frustrate, the end of it, as Peterson reminds us, is glorious and triumphant!”

  73. Teshuva Mar 14th 2013

    John/grace was with Yeshua at his baptism and then John/grace the disciple that Yeshua loved, was with him throughout his ministry and even death on the cross. So John/grace/favor never left him, and was always at his side.
    I would call that hyper grace for Him to say Father forgive them they know not what they do while being crucified. That is love– the kind that holds no account of wrongs.
    When I came to knowledge of this grace, it allowed Him to be the DO-ER in and through me instead of me trying to do it myself. My focus was on him and not on my sin.
    Thank You Father for amazing grace.

  74. Anna M. Mar 14th 2013

    @Serenity ..re: once saved always saved, yet God has withdrawn His empowering grace?

    Hmm? That makes for an odd line of thinking! Does God withdraw his empowering grace, and still leaving the empowering HS in us which assures our eternal position in Him? I have never heard of this. Interesting post! Alot to consider here.

  75. Andrew Mar 14th 2013

    Once Saved Always Saved is totally exposed by the parables and warnings Christ gave to BELIEVERS in Matt 25 (whole chapter) and Matt 7. 21-23

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  76. Surely Grace is Grace is Grace.
    can we conjure more Grace or less of grace?
    Over the years i see a problem many *Spirit filled labour under (*by this i mean the Bible definition, not man’s substitute for salvation). ie we never grasp fully who we now are! That must be His desire for us i think, because if we did we would be instantly translated like Enoch. then no evangelizing. no church gathering..no debate here because none of us are around.
    The Bible says we are perfect in Him
    The Bible says we have His righteousness not our own!
    His faith not our own (we have gone from faith to Faith “….shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?….”
    we could go on and on listing the amazing things in the NT God says about us now! Present tense!
    How much if do we believe?


  77. Apologies hit the wrong key!
    How much of it do we, or maybe even dare to believe?
    We surely do Jesus a disservice if we constantly question what he declares, He has re-fashioned us into.
    Pr Michael

  78. Darren Sargent Mar 14th 2013

    “Anything that belittles or obliterates the holiness of God by a false view of the love of God, is untrue to the revelation of God given by Jesus Christ. Never allow the thought that Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ stands with us aginst God out of pity and compassion; that he became a curse for us out of sympathy with us. Jesus Christ became a curse for us by divine decree. Our portion of realising the terrific meaning of the curse is conviction of sin, the gift of shame and penitence is given us; this is the great mercy of God. JESUS CHRIST HATES THE WRONG IN MAN, AND CALVARY IS THE ESTIMATION OF HIS HATRED.”

    Oswald Chambers

  79. Jda016 Mar 15th 2013

    I believe Joseph Prince preaches hyper-grace, or something along those lines. He talks about people not needing to repent of sins after getting saved. He also talked about, say for instance, if one was addicted to pornography, all one had to do was keep saying, “I am the righteousness of Christ” while they are committing the sin (or any sin). This would eventually free the person with no effort on part of the person to stop.

    I think that’s blasphemy….what do you think?

  80. chas351 Mar 15th 2013


    i will speak to you in the ‘flesh’ as my previous comments in the “Spirit” quoting Scripture was undisputable (i can post them again if you wish)

    what sort of a Saviour, saves someone only to lose them again?
    was he not looking after them properly, was the great shepherd asleep? walking on the water “hey Peter take my hand..” oops sorry lost you

    ~the almighty saviour, not very almighty if he can’t save to the UTTERMOST

    ~can he not provide enough grace to KEEP those he saves?
    is sin greater than Grace?

    He gives each a measure of Grace, however, not enough?

    so from what i understand in your thinking, he saves a person then its up to them to continue in grace, grow in grace, grow in holiness, (sounds like a lot of WORK to me) yet always having the possibility of failing, not meeting the mark, not finishing the race and losing that salvation, never really knowing…- whats the point of knowing he loves you, then saves you, then that person goes to hell? ~not really much of a god if you ask me.

    whats the point of even trying to get ‘saved’ if the above is true, because the devil and human sin is far stronger than any of us alone, so logically we would have no chance.

    works to get saved = NO
    works to get eternal reward = YES
    works to grow in Stature to the fulness of Christ = YES
    works to walk in Holiness = YES

    NO. its ALL GRACE, ONCE SAVED BY GRACE, GRACE ALONE is our Salvation through Faith in Yeshua the Only Lord & Saviour.

    (If a person thinks that’s a license to sin then that’s between them and God, and we can only warn & pray for them if we think they are out of line – but that has nothing to do with Salvation and knowing you are Once Saved)

    peace to you

  81. I think Romans 6 says it it all,and closes with,
    Sin pays wages – death.
    God gifts eternal life (to those that trust rely and obey – believe – Him)
    Scripture also tells us to come “boldly” before the throne of Grace.
    In the dead cold church i was rescued from, every week we recited parrot fashion “God be merciful to me, a miserable sinner”
    Then i began to read the book of Acts and realised more and more, that despite all the difficulties – persecutions the early church converts suffered, Almost without exception they were certainly not “miserable sinners” grovelling before a Lord who just had revealed himself to them super-naturally, in a marvelous irrefutable, unrebuttable Way,. rather, in stark contrast, they were bold, confident, assured, and victorious in Him.
    So also, should we be today.
    Pr Michael

  82. Marc Wildman Mar 15th 2013

    Just remove the word hyper that’s all!

  83. Andrew Mar 15th 2013

    Chas – the 5 Wise and 5 Foolish virgins are the perfect answer to your question.

    Were they all “virgins” – Yes. Were they all “believers” in the Bridegroom? – Yes. Did they all have some “oil” in their lamps? – Yes. Were they all “expectant” for their Bridegroom to come? – Yes.

    Yet half of them were lost, my friend.

    5 were utterly lost.

    Goodbye to “Once Saved Always Saved”!!

    And all the Matt 25 passages say the same thing.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  84. chas351
    “so from what i understand in your thinking, he saves a person then its up to them to continue in grace, grow in grace, grow in holiness, (sounds like a lot of WORK to me) yet always having the possibility of failing, not meeting the mark, not finishing the race and losing that salvation, never really knowing…- whats the point of knowing he loves you, then saves you, then that person goes to hell? ~not really much of a god if you ask me. ”

    I trust Andrew will forgive if i answer you.
    God says ” he reconciled,
    In the body of his flesh through death to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;……..”
    Note we are to continue become “grounded” in the faith! not throw our confidence in him away .Ananias and Sapphira being a a prime example, Ananias lying to the holy Ghost. Here they made one mistake, a fatal one!
    Let me tell you , when you LOVE it, it certainly is not WORK! Also if we DO certain things we shall never fall! II Peter 1
    Pr Michael

  85. Serenity Mar 15th 2013

    Agreed Jda016, THAT teaching is horrible, and could be blasphemy.
    Titus 2 : 11 – 14 sums up law and grace for me. In a nutshell : God’s grace instructs us to deny worldly lusts and to live godly as we await the coming of Jesus.

    Those who refuse to be filled with the Holy Spirit, miss out on the conviction of sin and the empowering to overcome it, to a large degree.
    Paul wrote, Shall we who have died to sin, live any longer in it ? (as an intentional thing). OF COURSE NOT !

    My friend (as above) felt she was quite justified in shouting down the phone at a family member for a whole hour as the other lady was preparing herself and children for their day.
    Friend spent that hour rehearsing to the other lady a whole list of grievances she had against her, and shouting the recipient into silence, all of this while young schoolchildren were in the house.

    Is this the sort of ‘growth in grace’ that pleases God when the ‘shouter’ has supposedly been ‘saved by grace’ for fifty years ??

    Such folk believe in Jesus as Saviour but (in my experience of them) they have not laid hold of God in prayer to help them grow in grace (very much).
    And we ARE commanded to grow in grace.

  86. Firstly the question has to be asked as to why does Hyper-Grace exist?. The kingdom of God and being saved is about “roots and fruits”, What is the root of Hyper-Grace? Why does it exist?? Hyper-Grace is all about allowing more people to come to your church and feel good about who they, Who they really are inside? And if they have a root in a continuous sin in their lives then they will keep coming and the churches profits keep coming also that’s the root of the doctrine.

    When people are called to repentance through conviction then decisions have to be made to repent or not, and repentance is rejected then often that particular church has to be departed from, as its not comfortable anymore, as the sin may be liked more than the choice to repent and be corrected. Hyper-Grace is just another twist on the seeker-friendly model of church that used to exist.

    What are we rooted in?
    Colossians 2:6-7
    6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it[b] with thanksgiving.

    I was invited to a new home group a year ago, I did not know it had this doctrine at its core, As soon as my family and I arrived the hosting family told us of this Grace Doctrine, I’d never heard of it. When I didn’t agree or comply, I was abused as not having any knowledge and then I was shunned as not being a true believer. Sure you forgive these indescretions, but it was amusing that the Hyper-Grace Doctrine only applies when it is agreed with, when it is not agreed with watch-out!!!. This family only follows the teaching of Joseph Prince a teacher of Hyper-Grace, who is based in Singapore.

    Any true witness of a doctrine or belief that is a true reflection of the Gospel would not react this way, many of us have heard many stories of those who have given their lives for Christ, and the one commonality is that when they and the Gospel they preach are abused and beaten they’re reaction is mostly one of love not hate.

    The great thing is that any belief or doctrine that is not rooted in Christ and the Kingdom will simply fade away in time. I have come to know this. In the last 2000 years there have been many doctrines, but the only one to stand today is that of Christ. We can all follow Gamaliels advice to the Pharasies pushings against the disciples, fighting against Hyper-Grace just causes division, it will soon fade away, as it is not of God.

    Acts 5:37-39 – Gamaliel’s Advice
    After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. 38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

    We are all sinners and even when saved, we can never live the rest of our lives without sinning at all, then we would be Jesus, supporting verses below:

    If we say we are without sin we are a liar!!
    1 John 1:9-10
    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

    A brother can sin!!
    Luke 17:3
    3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you,[a] rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

    “All have sinned”
    Romans 3: 21-24
    God’s Righteousness Through Faith
    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

    As for the argument that the Gospel is not relevant once we are saved, as it was only for the Jews, the following verses. We are saved by the Gospel, and also judged on the Gospel, The Gospel of Jesus is always relevant.

    Romans 1:15-16
    15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also [ The Just Live by Faith ] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

    Romans 2:15-16
    who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

  87. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    Andrew, no disrespect, but I think you have the parable of the Ten Virgins mid-interpreted. Most Bible scholars agree that the oil represents the Holy Spirit. So only 5 actually had the Holy Spirit and 5 did not. Just an observation. When folks refer to Once saved always saved, they get hung up on the fact that you can’t lose your salvation. I believe it’s true you can’t lose your salvation in the sense of God taking it from you. But I certainly believe you can make a conscious choice to give it up, reject God and walk away. I can’t find anywhere in the Word that says we ever lose our ability to choose who we will serve.

  88. Jda016 Mar 15th 2013

    Here are a few Scriptures (at least they certainly seem so to me) that seem to fly in the face of Once Saved Always Saved:

    2 John 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”

    Revelation 3:5 “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

    1 Timothy 4:1 “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (If we only please God through faith, then I’m not sure how one stays saved if they abandon the faith).

    Hebrews 3:12 “See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God” (I’m not sure how one who turns away from God, the author is speaking to believers here, can still be saved, and if he is, why is the author warning us?)

    Hebrews 6:4-6 “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

    Hebrews 10:26-27 “26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Bear in mind he is talking to Christians).

    Luke 12:45-46 “45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers” (This Scripture is real clear. How can the Master assign the servant a place with unbelievers if he already is one. Also how could he be a servant if he didn’t serve God).

    Hebrews 3:6 “6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end” (We are apart of his house IF we hold firm to the end. That is what it seems to imply to me).

    There are more. If you are curious about seeing all the scriptures that go against OSAS, I would be happy to look them up as well.

  89. Hey guys, some of the most spiritual men of God since the reformation have debated this question & not agreed. Men with Phd’s & huge churches who really made a difference in this world in the Kingdom of God. Mighty men of God.
    The best answer I ever heard & read to this question….. The Bible teaches both. This is a paradox. the Bible is full of them. They are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14 & Heb 5:14
    Christ Jesus came to bring life, spiritual life & we discuss it carnally just a the pharisees did & elicited the Lords comments that they deserve hell because they wouldn’t “come to me that I might give you life”
    This debate has no end, a waste of time.
    The discussion is not grace vs law.
    the issue is keeping the law by your own effort or fulfilling the demands of the law by the grace ie ability that god gives us. Grace ONLY works off my obedience. Grace doesnt replace the law, it helps me to fulfil it. Therefor no excuse to sin. Exactly the opposit to the “hyper grace” teaching
    I’m saved by grace, I have to repent & believe else no grace.
    eg. Faith is works. No works….no faith.
    God is not our servant. IN EVERYTHING, GOD WORKS WITH US IN US. Thats His grace

  90. Andrew Mar 15th 2013

    Absolutely – we need to teach both.

    Repentance and holiness on the one hand.

    Faith and grace on the other.

    An absolute FULL preaching of both. And “WALKING IN THE SPIRIT” also!

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  91. Anna M. Mar 15th 2013

    @Serenity re: rehearsing…list[s] of grievances…; Those who refuse to be filled with the Holy Spirit, miss out on the conviction of sin and the empowering to overcome

    Yes, Christians desperately need to examine themselves, whether we be in the faith. 2 Cor. 13:5-8 Try every spirit’s fruit. Such fruits as you’ve mentioned above, manifest unholiness. Even spirit filled Christians, are susceptible to the wily enemy; dulling us to the Holy Spirit’s conviction of sin, and empowering. All it takes is a wee bit of pride within our heart, believing ourselves incapable of stumbling, and we can fall head-long on our faces. …thinking we still stand! Reminds me of that little quote, “God isn’t trying to hurt our pride, He’s trying to kill it!” ~? We tend to focus on the sins of others; minimizing our own.
    1 Cor 10:
    12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
    13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

    Grievances allow the offended, to believe themselves justified in collecting and recording injustices done to themselves or others. They then refuse to forgive, with a view to punishing their offender. Bitterness retains the right to punish, hate and vilify another. Many roots of bitterness flow forth from such strongholds in our minds, defiling Christ’s Body and giving ground to the enemy. We need to pray for all who fall here, and help them regain a walk in Him. We have all drank from this poison cup, and passed this cup to others. Considering them friends, yet cursing them by sharing our sin instead of repenting from it. May we all strive to be the example of Christ, which others so desperately need to see. You are so right, it is not Holy Spirit Filling to do such things. Thankyou for reminding us of the importance of examining ourselves.

    Heb 12:
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

  92. Hi David (Markham),

    I believe my previous post (link provided below) has already answered your question regarding 1 John 3:9 (using 1 John 5:18 – which is basically a parallel passage)…


    If you’d like to dialogue this through with me further I’d be happy to…

    All the best, Love in the Lord,


  93. DAVID MARKHAM – You asked to hear our comments on 1 John 3:9.

    Along with you, my brother, I struggled over this passage for years – until I studied Greek and discovered what was actually being said in 1 John 3:9 vs 1 John 1:8, 9.

    1 John 1:8, 9 make it clear that all who are born again by God’s Spirit will sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightesouness.”

    1 John 3:9, however, seems to contradict this as it is poorly translated in a number of translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV et al.): “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.”

    The Greek word translated “does” is a common Greek word [poieo] which is used extensively in the NT and has numerous meanings depending on the context.

    In the context of 1 John 3:9 it means “to practice habitually.” In classical Greek it was often used to describe what a craftsman did – i.e. it was his life’s work and focus. To apply this meaning to 1 John 3:9: “The one who is born of God cannot habitually practice sin . . .”

    The Amplified Bible better translates this concept than many others: “No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.”

    Many translations which only tranlate “poieo” as “does” in 1 John 3:9, actually correctly translate it as it is used in 1 John 1:6: “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.” (NKJV). Here “poieo” is translated, “practice.”

    As you can see there is a huge difference between the person who walks in fellowship with Christ and sins on occasion – and the one who continually practices a life of sin – no matter what their profession.

    This actually fits quite well with the current discussion as it displays once again that though one may profess a belief in and commitment to Christ, if he lives a life of habitual sin, he does not have the seed or life of Christ within him. Often this is what the “hyper-grace” heresy produces – a life characterized by sin, rather than a life reflecting the righteous, holy image of Christ.

    Incidentally, I have noticed that numerous writers have tried to play a semantics game. To help avoid this, could we define “hyper-grace” as “the belief that no matter how one lives God’s grace covers it all” – or, as Paul put it, “Let’s all sin a lot because where sin abounds grace does much more abound.” (Romans 5:20; 6:1). Paul answers that question in Romans 6:2 – “May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (NASB).

    I hope this helps grant you and others greater understanding of this important issue.

    God bless,

  94. chas351 Mar 15th 2013

    Andrew (Pr Michael)

    please.. please HELP me!!!

    I need understanding, explanation,, more than a few verses

    The 10 virgins is only a Parable and has nothing to do with Salvation..,. it is a warning to be prepared for when Jesus calls us, so that we wait prepared in anticipation and not be asleep like the world is.

    There are only a few controversial verses in the Bible that ‘imply’ salvation can be lost

    However there are multitudes that confirm Salvation is ONCE and FOR ALL.

    Please explain for each of these HOW it is possible to be –unsaved? >>> YOU CANNOT<<<

    Rm8:17a: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ

    1Peter2:9a but ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people

    Eph1:4a According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (predestination)

    John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand

    VERY VERY CLEAR “never perish” “unable to pluck from the Fathers hand”

    Below verses clearly say we have Eternal Life “NOW’

    Titus3:5, saved now
    Eph2:8-9, saved now
    1Jn5:11-13, know you have eternal life
    Jn5:24, now passed from death to life

    1 John 3:1-3
    Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    Romans 8:38-39
    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,
    neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth,
    nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

    To wear the Helmet of Salvation is exactly that:
    Know you are saved and cannot lose it.


    Titus3:5, saved now
    Eph2:8-9, saved now
    1Jn5:11-13, know you have eternal life
    Jn5:24, now passed from death to life

    The above verses are NOT controvercial

    People are scared of the Truth that sets them free – human nature doesn’t like a handout (free gift) BUT God’s ways are NOT our ways and He has chosen the foolishness of this world to confound the WISE.

    Peace to you all.

  95. Jda016 Mar 15th 2013

    Dear Chas351,

    Those are wonderful Scriptures that show how our salvation is bought and given to us through Christ. I will agree with you that many of them seem to show that we can never be outside of Christ.

    However, if you looked over all the verses I posted above about losing one’s salvation, even if you interpret them differently than I do, you can certainly see and understand why some Christians do not believe in OSAS. There are many Scriptures that go against it, you just have to be willing to look at them and decide for yourself.

    It is so easy to pick only the verses that suit our theology (I’m guilty of that), while ignoring the ones that don’t line up with it. The whole word of God needs to be taken into account and then we have to seek and pray, asking the Lord for the complete Truth.

    From my research, I do not believe in OSAS, but even if you disagree, its ok, so long as we both are living our lives completely for Jesus and walking in obedience to Him. I only believe one can lose salvation if they deliberately and willfully choose to stay in sin, with no remorse or care to ever repent.



  96. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    Davo- if i am hearing you correctly- and I think I am-what you said is accurate. That is biblical theology my friend!

  97. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    The early church age started with the division between who,insisted on getting right and staying right with God based upon their behaviour and their performance and that holiness of life was attained by strenuous self effort and self discipline VS. those who insisted that we get right AND STAY RIGHT WITH GOD by faith in Jesus alone plus nothing of our behaviour or our performance and that we maintain a holy lifestyle by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ alone plus nothing of our own self effort or diligence or self control.

    The former group in their zeal for self righteousness ended up persecuting and killing the latter group.
    What does straw have to do with wheat?

  98. jackrabbit Mar 15th 2013

    Perhaps hyper grace is not the right term for this problem. It might be passed off as grace but under scrutiny it has nothing to do with grace.

    It doesn’t seem to revolve around grace, it seems to revolve around people justifying themselves to God. Justifying their sins.

    I have asked God about this type of thing in the past and He told me that they justify themselves to Him. He spoke to me about doing it to Him once, and I had forgotton what I had done. But I repented and asked Him to forgive me and brought forth fruit worth of repentance by changing my ways and I have never justified myself to Him since.

    A grace that is not holy is not grace, it is something else passed off as grace.

  99. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    Re: Eternal security vs lack of assurance

    The only reason many folk don’t have any assurance of their eternal security in Christ is because they are basing their security on THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN PERFORMANCE AND BEHAVIOUR RATHER THAN ON JESUS CHRIST AND HIS PERFORMANCE AND BEHAVIOUR!

    God will never give anyone assurance based upon ANYTHING BUT FAITH ALONE CHRIST JESUS.
    Wesley got this right:
    On Christ the solid rock I stand
    All other ground is sinking stand!

    Therefore thus says the Lord G od, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed. (Isaiah 28:16 NASB)

    There will no assurance of eternal security given to those who insist on trusting in themselves. God only gives His assurances of eternal security to those who place all of their confidence in Jesus alone.

  100. Hi.I remember about 20 years ago I was still a babe in Christ,attending a mens bible study, were I was told buy a brother in the lord that you could not even walk away from the lord if you tried,once saved always saved. So being unskilled in the word of God I thought that sounded pretty good to me and my flesh,I thought to myself I can do what I want,I Gradually started cussing, drinking beers with the guys at work,even came home drunk,my consience being seered with a hot iron ,with no repentance at all.I didn’t care, I was told I had eternal security no mater what,I had a licience to sin basically. That is until the Lord got my attention The Holy Spirit was convicting me of sinful thinking one day, I told him to leave me alone,He then said to me do you really mean that. I thought about that for about 5 seconds I said no.I realized that I had been so close to rejecting Hiim that to this day ,even sharing this terrifies me. Even though I am saved, God still made me a free moral agent,with a will to choose either His way or satan’s way.Andrew give you some verses,here is some more,Heb 6:6,Heb 10:25-29,1 John 3:9-10 and 5:18 plus Rev chapters 2 and 3.This isn”t theology this ones for real believe me I almost went there. Lets stick to what the word of God says, not what our head says. Occupy till he comes!

  101. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    RE: Verses promising eternal security vs verses warning against falling away

    Every verse in the Bible that gives assurance of eternal security (without exception)ARE GIVEN ONLY TO THOSE WHO PLACE NO CONFIDENCE IN ANYTHING BUT JESUS CHRIST ALONE PLUS NOTHING.

    Every verse in the Bible warning against falling way (without exception)

    yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (Colossians 1:22, 23 NASB)

    You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; (Romans 11:19, 20 NASB)

  102. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013

    Grant…you just gave living proof that what you were told is true. The Holy Spirit gave you just enough ROPE to hang yourself with……but He PREVENTED you from going any further.

    Amen to Barry Schmidt’s comments.

    Amen to jackrabbits last comment about a COUNTERFEIT GRACE called SELF-JUSTIFICATION.

    A false belief system and believing lies does NOT NEGATE the TRUTH OF GOD.

    As an example…….It was not too long ago that the whole world population believed that the world was flat.
    There was a small remnant of people that did not believe that LIE.


    Those who believed the LIE needlessly suffered fear and anxiety and their lives were “small” in comparison to what they could have enjoyed with the “whole world made available” to them.

    It “feels” SAFE to believe a LIE, because a LIE is “small” enough for us to WRAP OUR MINDS AROUND and fit into our finite boxes.

    God’s Truth is NOT OF THIS WORLD. It is too BIG for us to Fully Comprehend and put in our small finite boxes…..that is why it is called FAITH.



  103. HI Chas351 Jesus said “i will never leave or forsake you … in that day you shall know…..”
    As you know we all have a free will, we are not robots, therefore we walk in the Spirit being over comers, cherishing our salvation (which salvation, as the scriptures you use show, we have been given) and stand fast ’till that great day.! It is simple, not complicated.
    Effectively we got a ‘get out of gaol free card’ so don’t throw it away (that’s not forgetting He purchased it)
    Yes, i believe we ARE justified, saved,and everything He says about US (though i do not see it all yet) but have that assurance of faith and unseen hope ratified certified sealed by the Holy Ghost (Christ) which He through Grace and Mercy gave me) i also believe that I am the only thing/being in the whole of creation that can damage the father son relationship He has given me.with Him. Can you accept that?
    Pr Michael

  104. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    The error most of those who teach against OSAS is this: they falsely assume that the reason folk fall away from Christ or “lose their salvation” IS BECAUSE OF SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR. In other words they maintain that a man is assured of his salvation AS LONG AS HE BEHAVES RIGHTLY!

    This is completely unbiblical and BOGUS! The BIBLE NEVER teaches a man loses his right standing with God or his salvation BECAUSE OF HIS WRONG BEHAVIOR.
    On the contrary – The Bible ALWAYS warns that a man is in danger of being cut of from Christ, or is in danger of judgement or is is danger of falling away BECAUSE HE DEPARTS FROM BELIEVING IN CHRIST ALONE !!!!

    The warnings against falling away in Hebrews were written to Jews who were tempted to depart from BELIEVING JESUS as the only means of their salvation BACK TO LAW KEEPING AND PERFORMANCE ORIENTATION!
    but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)
    And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (Hebrews 6:11, 12 NASB)

    The Galations who were threatened with being cut off from Christ were warned ON THE SAME BASIS!
    You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4 NASB)
    For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:3 NASB)

    You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:19-23 NASB)

    I am appalled at the complete lack of Bible knowledge among so many of my Pentecostal and Charismatic brothers! Shame on us for this ignorance due to laziness in studying our Bibles.

  105. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013


    If you SURRENDER your will in exchange for the will of the Father daily, as Jesus did and does, does that make us Robots??
    He DESERVES our FAITHFULNESS and we say we FOLLOW Him when we call ourselves “christians”.
    Our wills are part of the corrupt soulish fallen nature of mankind.

    He PURCHASED our Minds, our Wills, our Spirits, our Souls, and our Bodies with His Blood.

    God has the RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP to require us to LAY DOWN OUR WILLS at His feet, His Throne, His Altar of Sacrifice, the foot of His Cross where His Blood soaked into the ground from which we were created.

    His ownership gives Him the right to require us to not ONLY lay down our Wills, but our Minds, our Spirits, our Souls, our Bodies, our Daily Lives.

    Rom 12:1 KJV
    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your {bodies} a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

    AS YOU CAN SEE BELOW…the word “bodies” in this verse refers to the COMPLETE MAN.

    Body, Bodily:
    is “the body as a whole, the instrument of life,” whether of man living, e.g., Mat 6:22, or dead, Mat 27:52; or in resurrection, 1Cr 15:44; or beasts, Hbr 13:11; of grain, 1Cr 15:37, 38; of the heavenly hosts, 1Cr 15:40. In Rev 18:13 it is translated “slaves.” In its figurative uses the essential idea is preserved.

    {{Sometimes the word stands, by synecdoche, for “the complete man,” Mat 5:29; 6:22; Rom 12:1; Jam 3:6; Rev 18:13.}}

    Sometimes the person is identified with his or her “body,” Act 9:37; 13:36, and this is so even of the Lord Jesus, Jhn 19:40 with 42. The “body” is not the man, for he himself can exist apart from his “body,” 2Cr 12:2, 3. The “body” is an essential part of the man and therefore the redeemed are not perfected till the resurrection, Hbr 11:40; no man in his final state will be without his “body,” Jhn 5:28, 29; Rev 20:13.

    The word is also used for physical nature, as distinct from pneuma, “the spiritual nature,” e.g., 1Cr 5:3, and from psuche, “the soul,” e.g., 1Th 5:23. “Soma, ‘body,’ and pneuma, ‘spirit,’ may be separated; pneuma and psuche, ‘soul,’ can only be distinguished” (Cremer).

    It is also used metaphorically, of the mystic Body of Christ, with reference to the whole Church, e.g., Eph 1:23; Col 1:18, 22, 24; also of a local church, 1Cr 12:27.

  106. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013

    Amen Barry.

  107. Father, please give us a revelation of Your Grace…

    Open our eyes to see the truth…

    May the strongholds be broken…

    As I’ve read some of the comments a strong thought has been coming to me…

    Do some of us posting here know the love of our earthly fathers?

    Do we have bitterness in our hearts towards our earthly fathers?

    This will cause us to miss the Grace of God…

    The appreciation of the Grace in which we stand…

    Do we have unresolved issues with our earthly fathers?

    (Or mothers?)

    Take the log out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye…

    We won’t know that we are forgiven until we forgive…

    Love in the Lord,


  108. “Believe” in the true Bible sense is to trust in, rely on, and obey..
    That is clear from all scripture both OT and NT unregenerate man can not do all three
    think about it to repent is to obey , to get baptized the Bible way is to obey to receive the Holy Spirit, as the early church, is to obey and why how? because He through grace, mercy and sound doctrine (teaching) and payin The price tro purchase us, gave us the faith to trust and rely on Him. to the point that we fall on Him and are broken, then remade This is all of Him not us. ” I chose you, you did not choose Me” he said. Remember the devils “believe” and tremble!
    Pr Michael

  109. Quote: There are only a few controversial verses in the Bible that ‘imply’ salvation can be lost

    However there are multitudes that confirm Salvation is ONCE and FOR ALL. Quote

    There is a multitude of verses that imply a Christian can be lost.

    On the other hand a person sees what they want to see in the Bible. We have to take the whole counsel of God and not just the part we want to pick and chose.

    The problem is your confusing the fact if your saved and remain following the Lord then you can have the confidence that He is with you and will never forsake you.

    If you chose to follow the world and flesh and live anyway you want then your in danger of the judgement of God.

    Many will say to me in that day Lord Lord, and He will say to them depart from me you workers of iniquity.

    Matthew 7:22-24
    22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
    Build on the Rock

    24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

    This can include the hyper grace thinking, “live the way you want” and you’ll make it in.

    Even though we are not under the law the very word, “Disciples” implies one who is disciplined in their life.


  110. Resisting the Grace of God is the worst sin which anyone can ever commit and this sin – Resisting the Grace of God – will send you to hell…

    The sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the sin of Resisting the Grace of God…

    Resisting the working and drawing of the Holy Spirit in our lives as He calls us, woos us towards Himself – attributing His work to the devil – not recognising it as His work – not recognising His Voice – not surrendering to Him (to allow Him to live His Life through us) today if you hear His Voice do not harden your hearts…

    I swore in My Wrath they shall not enter My Rest…

    What was it that they needed to do to enter His Rest?

    Not to harden their hearts when they heard His Voice…

    What is the word of faith which His Voice has sent out into all the earth?

    That Jesus is our Substitute…

    That His Blood was sufficient…

    His Blood was sufficient…

    His Blood was sufficient…

    The Holy Spirit will live the Life of Jesus in us…

    The Holy Spirit will live the life of Jesus in us…

    He will…

    We must not deny Him…

    We must not have a form of godliness but deny its true power…

    The Holy Spirit and the Grace of God is our entrance into the Power of the Holy Spirit – not fear of losing our salvation – but the knowledge of where He has brought us – this breaks our rebellion – this breaks our stubbornness and we submit ourselves therefore to God…

    I tell you now someone who says, “I’m under grace so I’m going to go out and commit as much sin as I can and enjoy it as much as I can and God’s ‘all good’ with it and isn’t going to do anything about it – ‘He’s not going to change me'” doesn’t understand God’s Grace – they are twisting things to give themselves an excuse to remain in sin…

    Someone who has had a revelation of God’s Grace has something in them that just doesn’t want to sin anymore and knows full well in the areas where the Lord is still working to bring them to deliverance (practically) that what the Lord is doing is destroying “sin within them” not giving it a chance to parade itself as “good and right in the sight of God” – which it clearly is not…

    Yes, believing the truth about ourselves is very important… Proclaiming that we are – our new selves – the Righteousness of God in Christ is very important – “as a man thinks in his heart so is he”…

    The Truth is the Truth and the Truth shall set you free…

    The Truth is that we have been translated from Satan’s kingdom -fact…

    The truth is that he has no power over us…

    The truth is that everyone who is born of God overcomes the world…

    That is a fact – God said that in His Word…

    If you deny that You are calling God a liar…

    Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world…

    And those who are born of God are not born by an act of their will but by an Act of God…

    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13 NASB)

    They do not sustain themselves spiritually by an act of their will but by an Act of the Spirit of God within them…

    Jesus is perpetually praying for us in heaven…

    Why do you think this is?

    Has He nothing better to do?

    Why does He need to make continual intercession for us?

    Because He will not let the devil get any glory that he has managed to snatch one of these “born again of God” ones from Jesus’ Hand – the Father gave them – entrusted them – to Jesus – He (Jesus) is not going to lose them…

    It is an Act of Honour…

    Jesus’ Honour is at stake – He is not going to lose them…

    If you refuse to believe this and instead call God a liar and make yourself the “commander of your own destiny” and say that at any time you can walk away from your salvation and be lost and this is what you do and remain constant in that for the rest of your life then indeed you will be lost – but does that make God a liar?

    No, it just shows that you were an illegitimate child all along…

    We must make our calling and election sure…

    How do we do this?

    By surrendering to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to live His Life through us…

    The life surrendered to the Holy Spirit will Glorify Jesus…

    If the Holy Spirit is living through someone then that person’s life will Glorify Jesus…

    It will be focused on Jesus…

    It will not be focused on sin…

    It will focus on where Christ is seated at the Right Hand of God the Father…

    He disciplines us for our good that we may share in His Holiness…

    Do not resist the Grace of God…

  111. Jda016 Mar 15th 2013

    Amazing testimony Grant! I believe you are completely correct.

  112. watchful Mar 15th 2013

    As usual some seem to be attributing to the article what it isn’t saying and sort of arguing with what isn’t there. But that said, infants need milk, yes, but if that is all they are fed their whole lives, if they are never weaned and begin to be fed on meat seasoned with salt they will never grow and become strong, but remain infants and children kicking around in their dirty diapers and playing in the mud………that is the problem. Don’t we need the whole counsel of God otherwise we grow into stunted, crooked trees, tottering either in one direction or the other, instead of growing straight up and tall.

    Eze 16:4 On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths.

    Eze 16:5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.

    Eze 16:6 “ ’Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, “Live!”

    Eze 16:7 I made you grow like a plant of the field…

    The church is starving to death in these days, like that infant left out in the field to die…………………………….!! ………. What is supposed to happen just isn’t happening…there is a famine of the words of God!

  113. Anna M. Mar 15th 2013

    @ Pastor Wayne .. on 1 John 3:9

    Good and clarifying words.


    1 John 3:4, Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

    Matthew 24:12, And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

    Matthew 7:23, And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    Matthew 23:28, Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

    Romans 6:19, I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

    Hebrews 1:9, “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    2 Thessalonians 2:7, For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

  115. ever consider that maybe these people who got involved with that action were just barely hanging on to being a CHRISTIAN ? preaching at bars while getting plastered….all in the name of grace? come on let’s get real ! we ( my wife and i ) have attended several different churches and for various reasons decided to attend elsewhere….some necessary moves that could not be avoided and some by choice .for a short time we attended a ” mega church ” … it was a sad joke! after we left there i heard that the head pastor coducted a survey and was ashamed of how little the flock knew and understood christianity ( including asst. pastors) . the conduct of some of the attendees at a service was appauling….. like high school kids at a movie show ! even at smaller churches i have noticed people jump and carry on during praise and worship and then during the teaching talking, cleaning their nails , sleeping etc. ,,,,WHY DO THEY ATTEND ? then there’s COFFEE ! how come people cant sit through a two hour service without coffee ? or go to churched dressed at least as well as they do going to work? WHY IS THERE A BETTER CONDUCT CODE FOR A JOB THAN FOR GOING TO CHURCH ? WILL THERE BE COFFEE SHOPS IN HEAVEN ? if not will people really want to go there ?


    2 Thessalonians 2:7, For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the LAWLESS ONE is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,…

    Daniel 8:23-24, “In the latter part of their reign, when REBELS have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the HOLY PEOPLE.

    Daniel 8:12-13, Because of REBELLION, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the REBELLION that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”

    Daniel 11:33-35, Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the HOLY COVENANT. He will return and show favor to those who FORSAKE the holy covenant. His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have VIOLATED the covenant, but the people who KNOW their God will firmly RESIST him. Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.”

    Isaiah 59:12-15, For our transgressions are multiplied before You, And our sins testify against us; For our transgressions are with us, And as for our iniquities, we know them: In transgressing and lying against the LORD, And departing from our God, Speaking oppression and revolt, Conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For TRUTH is FALLEN in the street, And equity cannot enter. So truth FAILS, And he who DEPARTS FROM EVIL makes himself a prey.

    Daniel 8:25, He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

    Daniel 12:7, When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

  117. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    Thanks Andrew Horton.
    Also re: your question about whether it is a stronghold of unresolved father wounds that keep cause people to reject the gospel of peace with God throught the righteousness that comes by faith alone.

    The stronghold of unbelief is not from an unresolved father wound. Otherwise only those are healed could participate in the gospel and healing of emotional wounds would become a prerequisite to believing the gospel and being saved.

    The stronghold of unbelief comes from the flesh which is as old as Adams rebellion and Cains rebellion against pleasing God by faith in a blood sacrifice ALONE. Cain’s sin was wanting to please God (maintain salvation) by what HE PRODUCED- this self righteousness! Religious flesh always wants to lay claim to God and the blessings and favour of God BY WHAT IT DOES!


    The stronghold of unbelief is religious flesh. I am ashamed to say this as a life long Pentecostal but the greatest promoter and sustainer of self effort RELIGIOUS FLESH in the world for the past 100 years has been the Pentecostal and Charismatic wing of the church!!!!!

  118. It is interesting how the discussion has changed from “hyper-grace” to “once saved, always saved.” Since it has, however, I would like to share what the Lord showed me when I was a younger pastor and had to deal with the issue when it arose in the congregation I pastored.

    First, some background: I was brought up in a Pentecostal church where the topic of backsliding was frequently preached. I was “saved” at the age of 8 when I asked Christ to forgive me and be my Lord and Saviour. Due to the preaching and my immature thinking, I thought I was backslidden every time I sinned. Hence, I was at the altar at the front of the church almost every Sunday repenting of my backsliding and asking Christ to forgive me and save me once again.

    Later, in Bible college, God showed to me the truth that one is not backslidden (unsaved) when one sinned. Rather, as a born-again believer, when I sinned I was to confess my sins and failures, He was faithful to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). After all, if He set the standard for us was to forgive our brother 490 times (virtually as many times as he sins against us), then how much higher is His forgiveness toward us?

    Fast forward to a group of people in our church who were propogating the OSAS heresy. I responded as our Lord had trained me and I went to my knees in prayer with my Bible and began to search the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit led me to His Truth.

    I found that when one comes to Christ, places his faith in Christ and His finished work, and is born-again by His Spirit, that one is secure in Christ. As the end of Romans 8 states, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. Also, as Christ, Himself proclaimed, “No man can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (John 10:28, 29).

    However, the Spirit and the Word also showed me that one could be separated from Christ. This can occur when the one who placed his faith in Christ decides to turn back from that faith. One is saved by faith; one can be lost again by reneging, renouncing, or denying that faith in Christ.

    The following verses were the key ones He showed me:

    (1) In Colossians 1:18 – 22, Paul describes our salvation in Christ and the hope of the day when He “present[s] [us] holy, and blameless, and above reproach …” In verse 23, Paul then makes the culmination of our salvation conditional by stating, “if indeed you continue in the fatih, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, . . . ” That means that it is possible for one not to “continue in the fatih . . .” The “IF” makes it possible.

    (2) 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

    The Greek word used here for “reprobate” is “ἀδόκιμος adokimos” an adjective meaning, “Rejected, depraved, disqualified, unworthy, useless.” It is used 8 times in the NT. Probably the best-known of these is Romans 1:28 where it says of those who reject God, that He “gave them over to a REPROBATE mind.” This word is used to describe those who have rejected Christ.

    Obviously, Paul recognized the possibility of one either outright turning one’s back on Christ, or gradually slipping away from one’s faith in Christ when he gives the above warning and exhortation in 2 Cor.13:5.

    (3) Paul recognized that he was not above himself rejecting Christ and his faith in Him, when he used the same word (adokimos) about himself and declared, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway [or reprobate].” 1 Corinthians 9:27 (KJV)

    Once again, he preceded this conclusion after making reference to the culmination of our salvation (run the race so that you may obtain an incorruptible crown – vv. 24, 25).

    (4) 1 Timothy 4:1 – “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.”

    Very clearly we see, “some will depart from the faith.” When the NT refers to “the faith,” it is speaking of faith in Christ for salvation. Obviously in order to “depart from the faith,” one must first be “in the faith” or “have faith” in Christ.

    We see this so prevalent in these days, don’t we? I’m sure most of us know those who once proclaimed a faith in Christ but who have turned aside to another faith in a false doctrine or teaching.

    (5) The much debated passage from Hebrews 6:4 – 6ff. Here reference is made to those who “have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.” That sure sounds like a description of one who has placed his faith in Christ and was born-again by the Holy Spirit according to John 3.

    However, we see that such a one can “fall away” from that position and faith in Christ.

    It is interesting to note, that in further describing such a state that the word “adokimos” is used in verse 8 – “but if it bears thorns and briers, it is REJECTED and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” This once again refers to one who has turned his back on faith in Christ – after having had it.

    (6) Christ, Himself, spoke of one who starts out with faith in Christ but who winds up turning away from Him. In Luke 9:62, in referring to those who would follow Him, He said, ” ‘No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.’ ”

    As I said in my first post on in response to the article, we must be careful not to look at any one verse (or several) in isolation. Rather, we must look at the whole of the Word of God to be able to arrive at the Truth. All of the Word must agree with itself.

    When applied to keeping or losing one’s salvation, there are numerous passages assuring us of the security we have when placing our faith in Christ. No one or no thing can tear us away from Christ. However, as we can see in the above passages, it is possible for one who is not diligent in their faith and lets it slip away, or who deliberately turns away from his faith in Christ, to no longer be in that place of security and faith in Christ.

    Once saved, always saved (OSAS) is the one extreme; backsliding by any sin is the other extreme (or for you theologians out there – Arminianism vs. Calvinism). I believe the truth lies in the middle of these two extremes as I’ve described above.

    I trust this will help some to see more fully what Scripture says about the matter.

    God bless,

  119. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    Every sin is rooted in the STRONGHOLD OF UNBELIEF.
    Unbelief is refusing to BELIEVE GOD when he says that we are made right and kept right with Him BY FAITH ALONE IN HIS SON!

    The sin of “hyper grace” is rooted in the stronghold of unbelief. The sin of self effort righteousness IS ALSO rooted in the stronghold of unbelief!

    The devil is laughing while one group held captive by unbelief criticizes and condemns the other group held captive in the stronghold of unbelief.
    The self righteous stronghold of unbelief are as blind as bats as they criticize and condemn the self deceived hyper grace stronghold of unbelief.


  120. Barry Schmidt Mar 15th 2013

    Gods answer to be delivered from the prison house of unbelief is simple. It’s the same simple answer he gave to the Philipian jailer:
    “believe in The Lord Jesus Christ (ALONE) and you will be saved.”

    When we REPENT ( change our minds) of self righteousness unbelief and hyper grace unbelief and PLACE ALL OF OUR CONFIDENCE IN JESUS ALONE PLUS NOTHING – we will be kept safe (saved, secured, assured, protected, favoured, delivered, empowered, blessed, justified, sanctified and glorified)!!!!

    Therefore thus says the Lord G od, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed. (Isaiah 28:16 NASB)

  121. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    Pastor Wayne, excellent response. I think we share the same background. Have you ever noticed the the term “backsliding” was never applied to New Testement Christians only to those who lived under the Law. I think it is a conscious choice to renounce your faith and turn and reject God. I remember feeling the need to get saved every week. I’m so glad we don’t have to live in eternal insecurity!!!

  122. I guess I haven’t kmet any of the Hyper-Grace people. I have problem with the other end of the spectrum. The Legal-Eagles who push people down and keep them down. Whatever one yields himself to, that is what he becomes slave to. Therefore, as we yield ourselves to Christ, our lives will reflect Him. I rejoice in my Lord, not in the fact that I am saved and forgiven. That is self interest. We are supposed to deny self. I am thankful for my relationship with Him. My salvation is simply a byproduct of that relationship. Who was it that ever truly loved another and was not willing to deny self? If self is still alive, then sin abounds. Grace is my message, and I have no use for so called holiness preachers. They have done more harm to the Body of Christ than all the grace ministries.

  123. watchful Mar 15th 2013

    Without even quite realizing it I had slidden into inadvertently thinking that we alter the gospel depending on who we are speaking to, a little bit different gospel for Jews, a little bit different gospel for homosexuals, a little bit different gospel for emotionally wounded, etc, etc………….but recently the mist kind of cleared, and I realized that no, there is only one gospel and it is the same gospel for everyone, the truth spoken in love, as Jesus spoke it. Foolishness to our way of thinking, and yet to God, wisdom. BUT, do I speak as Jesus spake? (sigh), that is a whole other question……….

  124. This is an example of hyper-grace:

    a drama has just unfolded in the news concerning a man named George Sodini, age 48. He calmly walked into a Pittsburg gym and began randomly shooting women in an aerobics exercise class. He killed three women and seriously wounded nine more before taking his own life. But George Sodini was no ordinary mass murderer. He was a product of Luther’s easy believism, the epitome of someone who took seriously Luther’s advice to “sin boldly.” Before committing his heinous crime, George Sodini wrote an explanation of why he was doing it—a memorandum to be read after he died. In it he said:  

     “Soon I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.” Like many others, George Sodini belonged to a religion. But his religion was not Christianity. It was Doctrianity. He “knew” he was going straight to heaven after committing his horrible crime, for he held to the “right” doctrine.

    David Bercot Will the Theologians Please Sit Down

  125. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013

    AMEN Barry Schmidt.

  126. Andrew – great article! However, we need to start naming names. The Apostle Paul did name names such as: “it has been reported to me by the house of Chloe that there is dissention among you….” If you mean Joseph Prince as one Hyper-Grace teacher, then I would definitely agree. But if we are going to call them out, in love, then let’s call them out.

    God bless you

  127. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    I wonder who they are and how many of those commenting on this site has actually heard one? There are a lot of comments on here saying they say this or they say that. Lets be careful we are not guilty of causing discord among the brotherern…

  128. Andrew, no disrespect, but I think you have the parable of the Ten Virgins mid-interpreted. Most Bible scholars agree that the oil represents the Holy Spirit. So only 5 actually had the Holy Spirit and 5 did not. Just an observation. When folks refer to Once saved always saved, they get hung up on the fact that you can’t lose your salvation. I believe it’s true you can’t lose your salvation in the sense of God taking it from you. But I certainly believe you can make a conscious choice to give it up, reject God and walk away. I can’t find anywhere in the Word that says we ever lose our ability to choose who we will serve.
    OH david,
    YOU know the ONE THING that all the prosperity
    preachers, hyper grace which is self gratification
    or law which is self justfication
    along with ALL the pharissess in old days.
    pard…………………..THINK ON THAT.
    YOU dont have to make a conscioius choice to walk awayfrom
    GOD in the sense you tHINK……….
    IF WE LIVE after the flesh…………..THEN whether we think we FOLLOW GOD……………WE DONT.
    ITS called DECEPTION.
    DAVID markem……………I HOPE i made this VERY CLEAR>
    ITS a FIGHT …………and ONE DAILY
    to resist the FLESH, and by the PPOWER of GOD
    to follow HIM.
    ONE can LOSE his salvation. BY choosing self
    and NOT even realize they done IT.
    DAVID………….awake my son…………………
    and be on gaurd at all times.
    LEST one be led away with the ERROR of the wicked.
    yeah,,,,,,,,,,that is a new tesatment writing as well.
    PLEASE dig a wee deeper in ONLY BIBLE.
    and when you want to read something else
    refer to the above……….ONLY BIBLE.
    I am only here to HELP you david. MAYBE this will help sharpen
    you a bit. ITS not that you dont know some truth.
    BUT his will HELP.
    dig deep now.

  129. david …………..oh…………..they will be convicted with error,
    but i have seen many a man be convicted , do the right thing
    then later think THEY hear from GOD
    and go right into what THEY tHINK is right.
    TIS called deception.
    If one wants to know they are of GOD.
    then PATTERN thyself AFTER JESUS words
    and not mens.
    and Yes the HOLY spirit does convict
    BUT if after a bit………….we dont listen
    WE ARE BACK in darkness
    still thinking we in the LIGHT. I SEEN THIS OVER and OVER again. ALL those proseprity preaches
    all the self gratification grace, and self justfication ones
    IF we dont LIVE the sermon on the mount…………..we lie
    and do NOT the truth.
    And yes………………..remarrying is a BIG NO NO
    after we KNOW JESUS……….lest the wife die
    or fornication was involed by HER
    and many other things mens flesh disregaurds
    and makes excuse to why they do as they do………..
    David………………..just a lil morre IRON for ya pard.

  130. WE NEED to be warning , encouraging one another daily
    lest one be HARDENED by the deciet of sin.
    and a BIG PLUS for edification
    IS ONLY BIBLE reading. TRUTH . T R u t h
    I by GRACE read nothing else.
    I grow weary of men, bringing some doctrine they heard
    from they preacher……….and WONT let it Go.
    I say to all BEGIN ANEW…………………BEGIN anew
    pick back up JUST the bible.
    yes…………JUST the bible.
    and GO after GOD, truth with all THY heart.
    and TRUTH will SET YOU FREE.
    IT DID ME………………….
    NOT cause i earned it or desireved it……….
    simple GRACE. amen.

  131. the walk withe CHRIST is simple
    TIS man who complicates EVERYTHING.
    LET us read ONLY BIBLE.
    and begin ANEW as a lil child…………..as a simple child
    just desiring GODS WILL.
    IF Jesus said to do something DO IT
    if he said NOT TO ……….DONT
    its as easy as that. so very simple.
    mans contrary flesh will complicate EVERTHING if you let it.
    DONT………………JUST trust JESUS as a child
    BELEIVE HIS EVERY WORD…………..as a child.
    its that simple. DONT twist anything just simply
    and OBEY. that is simple.

  132. The problem with this whole discussion in the title: “Hyper-Faith”.
    Hyper means Too Much. Can anyone have Too Much Grace?
    Of course Not! So the whole argument is fruitless.

  133. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    Randall, I am sorry you have chosen to live under the Law and practice self-righteousness toward those in the Faith. you say look to the Bible and the Bible only. I agree. Then please find me a scripture where it says that the Holy Spirit convicts Christians as you say. You bring up punishments which were under the law. Be careful my friend, the law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) did. You say we can choose self and walk in the flesh and not know it. The key word in your statement is “CHOOSE”. That my friend is an act of the will. And yes, you do know it. I have found that those who preach the message of grace, also teach a strong righteousness message. Keep working on your righteousness my friend, in the end it will just be filthy rages. I have no idea why you brought up the remarrying issue. Again, keep quoting the Law. Those who live by it will also be judged by it. I would rather live under the completed work of Jesus Christ.

  134. we know we follow GODS grace
    when we OBEY his word.
    IF any grace comes and it causes ONE to
    break anything JESUS said
    IT aint of GOD……………..its of satan.
    satan is the master of flesh
    and he can decive any one……………if they follow the flesh.
    IF one wants to be made WISE unto our salvation
    by our faith in CHRIST…………..THEN begin anew
    read ONLY THE BIBLE…………….and TEST all you hear.
    all of it. IF anything we hear, causes us to have to TWIEST in any way what JESUS said……………..then we err and this is of the flesh. IF JESUS said to do……………….our heart should say
    if he said NOT T ODO. THEN we dont do.
    the law is NOT TO BE MADE VOID
    its to be upon our heart BY THE HOLY GHOST.
    OUR LOVE TO GOD…………will Not lead us to break or make void what GOD has ever said.
    AND our LOVE to man will do the same unot man.
    LOVE will fullfill all, by the HOLY GHOST upon our hearts.
    BUT its up to US to follow the SPRIIT and not the flesh.

  135. now that we ALL are beginning anew
    put all of yesteday BEHIND YOU
    put it ALL BEHIND YOU.
    TODAY is the day…………..and WE CHOOSE TO FOLLOW GOD
    from henceforth and FOREVER.
    and Read diligently the BIBLE.
    ITS TRUTH…………….i PROMISE the king james version
    is TRUTH. i cant vouch for the others.
    BUT i can vouce for THIS……..
    SO TODAY is a new day………………..REPENT of all
    in CHRIST JESUS all things are possible.
    LAMBS of the LORD……………………..begin anew
    as a child……….GOD desires NONE OF US TO PERISH
    and this the very WORD I KEEP GETTING TO TELL US ALL.
    BEGIN ANEW…………………with the FIRST LOVE
    with a pure heart for GODS HOLY WORD
    his truth, his way, his will. BEGIN ANEW

    and from henceforth READ ONLY THE BIBLE

  136. Anna M. Mar 15th 2013

    @ randall lowrey- re: JUST the bible

    There is certainly a need to get back to His Word over men’s words. There is great iniquity in the very best righteous words of well-meaning men. Men’s words are just not Living, Holy and All Powerful to renew and sustain Life in us. God desires we love his words, they are His Heart. In His Word, much of human fog, is settled out in clarity. I have found some very good lovers of God having gone before us, exceeding in righteousness. I will gladly learn from those wiser and more godly than myself. Thankyou for this good thought though! …”JUST the bible”

  137. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    What do you mean by “we follow God’s grace”? Grace is not something you follow, it is something you possess because of what Christ did in the completed work of the cross. Second, “if grace comes and it causes ONE to break anything Jesus said It aint of God” . Is there another grace we should be worried about? What a strange statement. Don’t you get it, it’s God’s Grace that gives you the ability to follow after God and do his will and obey his word. Without it, we have no shot of doing any of those things. Grace is not a dirty word!!! It’s beautiful to those who receive it and understand what it cost!!!

  138. You bring up punishments which were under the law.

    NO i bring up punishemnts which are MOVE SEVERE DAVID.
    FOR if one was put to death under moses law
    by the witness of two or three.
    HOW MUCH SORER a punisment………….
    david…………..i warn, because hardly anyone else
    will anymore.
    BUT i am NO FOOL, i do NOT weigh myself
    by the law…………to obtain salvation.
    JESUS did that for me.
    I seek to STAY IN HIM, hiS WORDS
    that at the end………..i may attain that for which i have been attained. SEE anyone can fall away……..
    the REWARD of the crown aint given………….lest one REMAIN IN CHRIST FAITHFUL till the END.
    yes i have attained salvation in CHRIST
    but my WALK IN NOT YET OVER.
    david………….PUAL KNEW what he was talking about.
    when he spoke of not yet attaining .
    YET many WALK as though this walk is ALREADY OVER
    and are FALLING AWAY massive, because they
    dont PRESS toward the MARK.
    they just live for what pleases them.
    WE must be warned. our flesh is contrary.
    paul told timothy……………..and even commanded
    him by THE LORD JESUS
    to rebuke, exhort, warn, read sound doctrine.
    DAVID………………many are falling away
    TILL THE END………………..
    and since we all live in CONTRARY FLESH
    WE all NEED reminding DAILY, warning DAILY
    ENCOURAGIN also DAILY. NOT TO WALK after the flesh.
    i mean you no ill will. But somethin aint right in your spirit.
    i am worried for you. I love you . and only want
    the truth for us all, that we REMAIN in CHRIST failthful till the end.
    BUT if while we SEEK to be JUSTIFIED in HIM
    we are found sinners, CHRIST IS NOT OUR MINSITIR
    we have made ourselves transgressors…….
    AND we ALL NEED one another to watch out for one antoher
    LET NO lamb slip…………………..i am only here to help.

  139. Randal Lowrey, I did as you say, just the Bible for 7 years straight, guess what the Holy Spirit taught me in that time? That’s right GRACE! He showed much of what I had been taught my whole Christian life was bases on self-righteousness. After that time alone with the Holy Spirit and my Bible, I was then lead to a Grace teacher, low and behold he confirmed what I had learned from the Holy Spirit, and believe I tested the spirits because it went against what I was taught.

    BUT, the Lord showed me I had to quit reading the Bible through the lens of someone else’s interpretation. I had to take off their glasses. I had so many light bulb moments! I can’t tell you, now mind you I was reading the Word of God and I would say, now wait a minute that is not what I was taught, but the Holy Spirit would prompt me to keep going. This also happened when listening to Grace teachers at first, NOW WAIT A MINUTE THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS TAUGHT, but again the Holy Spirit would push me on. So many on the other side will listen to one sentence they they shut of their ears, because that is not what they were taught, and the neglect to listen to the rest of the sermon or sermon’s that explain what was spoken, taking the comment out of context! Isn’t that how all these doctrines come about in the first place scripture taken our of context and also not taking into consideration who Jesus or the others were talking too!

    Yes Randal, that was good advice about just the Bible, however we have to take off the other guys glass and look at the Word, through a clean and pure lens!

    Oh and when I was a legal eagle as someone called it, the harder I tried to not sin the worse it got. Now that I rest in the finished work of the Cross and rely on Jesus’s works at Calvary, the sins are falling off! Our works of righteousness are as filthy rages, but His works of Righteousness are FINE LINEN! I prefer Fine Linen instead of FILTHY RAGS!

  140. david…………….i should have made that more clear
    if another says IT GRACE……….
    i know there is NO OTHER GRACE
    just like paul knew there was NO OTHER GOSPLE
    but he still said that.
    David…………….again, i mean you no ill will.
    i used the word grace, like others do who use it improperily
    i have heard many say…….GOD gives grace
    when i try and correct them. SO i said what i did earlier.
    I know there is ONLY GODS GRACE
    all else which contradicts GODS WORD
    aint GRACE ……………..its of the dark one.
    And he is sly. WE can ONLY resisit satan by our faith.
    and all must be remined daily, as i need reminder daily.
    WHERE has THAT GONE………….
    Even the defintion paul gave of bishops, deacons, even deacons wives………..
    and they must be also GRAVE………….hey david
    THIS false illusion the world is under is just that false.
    HOW often JESUS warned. all the TIME.
    ITS in us to rebel, when i say us………..i mean our flesh.
    WE NEED reminder daily. and when i am led to warn
    this REMINDS ME AS WELL. WE all have gifts.
    by grace i know mine. ITS EXHORTATION……
    to warn, remind, encourage, etc.
    and it is by GRACE………………
    hey david………………go and learn
    the great GAIN of GODLINESS with contentment.
    THIS means what it says……………..GREAT GAIN.

  141. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    I appreciate your concern. By my spirit is fine. Full of the love of God and his mercy and grace. I have entered into his rest. I don’t find any rest in how you want to live, always fearful of messing up. I don’t need to remind myself daily to not walk after the flesh because I have no desire to walk in the flesh. Jesus destroyed the sin nature in me. If I sin, I am going against my new nature in Christ and I KNOW it!!! I am walking in his love and forgiveness. That brings liberty not fear. I don’t even entertain the thought of falling away as you call it. No, I’m not close to perfect, but his grace, love and mercy keeps me close to him. Jesus came to destroy the works of satan, and more than accomplished that. In him I live and move and have my being.

  142. Yes Randal, that was good advice about just the Bible, however we have to take off the other guys glass and look at the Word, through a clean and pure lens!

    that is truth.
    this is why i know its been a blessing that i was
    NEVER raised in church and kept
    away from mens books. I was just KEPT in the BIBLE ONLY.
    YOU ARE RIGHT…………..
    THIS IS PURE TRUTH. unadulterated by mens opinions.
    SEE, by grace i had the strong desire since day one
    to ONLY SEEK GOD……….it was a FIRE for truth.
    and i have just a LOVE of reading the word.
    JUS T that A LOVE OF IT.
    And by GODS unction of HIS SPIRIT
    and by what i read in the bible
    i TEST ALL I HEAR against the rightly divided word.
    will EVER contradict any other part of what has been written.
    IT all agrees………….there is NO CONTRADICTION if we have understood rightly.
    and a HEART AFTER GOD……………will discern correctly.
    He is faithful. i was the worst………
    and i can say that. FOR i know all i did before GODS grace
    before the FATHER led me to the SON.
    By grace i kept reading……………and i soon realized
    not only was i a sinner i was one of the worst.
    SIN became EXCEEDING sinful………….i became aware
    of HOW evil the flesh is.
    and THEN I KNEW i could do NOTHING
    to save myself……….or earn anything.
    and WOULD NEED HIM EVERY DAY , every moment .
    and THEN i was FREE.
    would be TO REMAIN IN HIM.
    AND every day, i see the need to remind believers
    and stir us up to remebrance.
    and TO KEEP our bodies under subjection.
    FOR even if we preach the gosple to all, and keep not our bodies under subjection…………..then we too shall be cast away.
    GOD is faithful……………..
    AMEN. SO i end on this note
    IF jesus said to do…………….we do
    and if he said not too………….we dont.
    we compare all we hear, to what has been written.
    and the more we read………………the more
    we know. and can easily deflect the lies by the truth.

  143. jorgedelaselva Mar 15th 2013

    Andrew, I have glanced over the comments that have been posted relating to hyper-grace and repentance. I have been looking for a few specific pertinent scriptures and I have not found them. If they have been brought forth I feel that repeating them again will be helpful. In fact this word is directed to people who want to be true leaders and that especially means you.

    The Apostle John reports on the Lord’s Supper in quite a different fashion than the other three gospels. So much so that Jesus tells Peter, the man who will become one of the pillars of the church that there is something he must do or else he will have no part with God. John 13. 1-17 is where you can find the study. Peter will not humble himself to allow the Lord to wash his feet, he does not feel worthy of such grace. The Lord says an amazing statement that would seem to contradict ‘once saved, always saved’ he says, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” Peter must submit himself to the Lord’s foot washing.

    So we must begin a tradition of foot washing. NO, NO, NO. Peter suggest something to our Lord that further clarifies the matter. He says, ‘not just my feet but my hands and my head as well.’ The Lord’s reply is, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

    In this short exchange a huge spiritual lesson is being taught that Jesus says will be understood later. Everyone of the disciples except for Judas was clean, pure, saved. They did not need to repeat that bath over and over again. But as they would go about life it would be like taking a journey and washing one’s feet would become a regular and REFRESHING habit, where a disciple would regularly confess their sins. Jesus obviously considers this to be vital when He warns Peter as sternly as He did.

    Jesus gave us a daily prayer in which we are to ask for our needs. In this prayer we are also told that we are to ask for forgiveness of our sins in the same manner as we extend forgiveness to others. I think it is wise not just to superficially say this prayer, it is helpful to take this general prayer and make it specific to my walk, to name my specific sins that the Spirit may bring to my recollection.
    I have found Hebrews 12 to be helpful, it speaks of a faithful cloud of witnesses, I liken it to fans rooting me on as I run, one of those fans is my earthly father who is now desirous to see me throw off every weight and also the besetting sin that so easily entangles me. For me that besetting sin is related to anger and lust, those sins are related to my family history, I must diligently watch for specific sins in this area and be quick to confess them as I run. I am greatly comforted knowing that my earthly father who has passed away is part of that cloud rooting us on as we seek to do something great for our God.

    Consider, Leviticus 26 as Jehovah speaks of the rewards and punishments of the covenant. In verse 40-42, He speaks of a formula for REVIVAL. That formula involves one confessing their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers. Jehovah’s prophetic words became reality in Nehemiah chapters 1 and 9 as the Israelites practically confessed their besetting, entangling, sins and those of their fathers.

    It is much better for a father to do this confession of their daily sins, than to PRIDEFULLY carry them to the grave. When a father confesses his sins regularly, he opens a doorway that turns his heart to that of his children. I believe that Malachi 4 speaks of two great revivals of fathers turning their hearts to their children, one happened in the great day of the Lord when Jesus first came and perhaps another will happen in the dreadful day of the Lord before the Second Coming.

    The church leaders of Jesus times refused to acknowledge a new thing that was instituted by one who came in the power of Elijah. John the Baptizer required people to confess and repent of their sins and to be baptized, but the Sanhedrin would have none of that. Their PRIDE of what people thought of them was more important than uncovering personal sins.

    Andrew, I am not worried so much about the hyper-grace crowd as I am worried about the church leaders who will not be diligent to lead (especially the men in) their congregation into a routine of regular foot washing. And if a pastor of a church is not willing to lead as the Spirit directs in confessing his shortcomings; why would he ever expect his sheep to do so??? In my opinion this is the most major reason that the Church has no edge.

    Andrew will you and all the pastoral leaders who are reading this commit to being transparent to your flock? If I were to ask any member of your congregation what is Andrew’s besetting area of life that he is constantly on guard over, could they tell me what it is? Or is it well hidden? If they know you are diligently and honestly facing your besetting sin then they will have no problem in doing likewise.

    Want a promise of hyper mercy, try Proverbs 28.13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have MERCY. Some other related verses are. Psalms 32.1-5, 38.18, Romans 15.14, Colossians 3.16, James 5.16, Revelations 3.19
    with much love, George

  144. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013

    Oh wow

    David Markham…I think you need to find out in scripture what the sin nature is.
    PLUS look in scripture to see what the men who had no sin nature MANIFESTED outwardly to the world.

    IF you have a DOUBLE WITNESS that these things are being MANIFESTED in your walk, then I say Praise the Trinity we have an Enoch and the Perfect Image of Jesus with us and people should be flocking to see you for healing, signs, wonders, and miracles.

    I am not ridiculing you…just stating the facts of history in scripture.

  145. I appreciate your concern. By my spirit is fine. Full of the love of God and his mercy and grace. I have entered into his rest. I don’t find any rest in how you want to live, always fearful of messing up. I don’t need to remind myself daily to not walk after the flesh because I have no desire to walk in the flesh. Jesus destroyed the sin nature in me. If I sin, I am going against my new nature in Christ and I KNOW it!!! I am walking in his love and forgiveness. That brings liberty not fear. I don’t even entertain the thought of falling away as you call it. No, I’m not close to perfect, but his grace, love and mercy keeps me close to him. Jesus came to destroy the works of satan, and more than accomplished that. In him I live and move and have my being.

    David………..i hear what your saying.
    BUT then hear this.
    I am only warning others.
    PAUL knew , yet he warned………………
    Peter knew…………….but he warned.
    the need to warn and remind, PAUL told to the people.
    AND i am LED to warn.
    IF there was no need to warn or remind believers of falling away
    WHY DID paul , and peter, jude, and others, and CHRIST
    warn of this.
    ITS in the parables of the seed………….and other places
    as well as all over the new testament letters.
    My need to warn………………..is because I TRULY LOVE
    MY HEARTS desire is for NONE to perish.
    and none of us has yet attained perfection.
    BUT if we remain FAITHFUL in HIM
    we will. FOR ONE DAY
    we shall be free of this evil flesh body of death.
    and no evil thoughts etc ever again.
    evil is in all flesh.
    we have that choice………………many call him LORD
    but do they do as he said.
    WE must encourage one another of the words of CHRIST
    because there is a massive famine in churches and the land.
    the believers must be our brothers keeper.
    and if one falls his brother better lift him out quick.
    LOVE……………..LOVE of the brethren.
    its hard to witness on the internet. so many words can be misunderstood. i love you all. and i pray for us all.

  146. Lightning Storm Mar 15th 2013

    Amen George.

    Very good points about the “daily foot washing” and the Lord’s Prayer.

    Actually the Lord’s Prayer follow the Tabernacle pattern of entering into the Holy Presence of God. Just as Jesus did in the Last Supper and His 3 1/2 year ministry also followed the Tabernacle pattern of entering into His Father’s Presence.

  147. RANDALL LOWREY: Several times you have emphasized that one should only read the Bible and go by the Bible.

    Also, several times, you have written that it is your mission to exhort, warn, (and by implication) teach others.

    My question is, “Which is it? Should we listen only to the Bible? Or should we listen to you?” It can’t be both. Or are you saying that it is ONLY the Bible PLUS you – which is a contradiction? If it is ONLY one thing, then it can’t be something else. Nor can it ONLY be ONE thing plus something else.

    Which is it, brother???

    God bless,

  148. watchful Mar 15th 2013

    1Jo 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

    1Jo 2:4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

    1Jo 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:


    1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

  149. Jda016 Mar 15th 2013

    Great Scriptures Watchful! Thank you for pointing them out.

    I love the epistles of John. They have a way of making things very clear as to who is a sheep and who is a goat; a wheat and a tare; one who truly knows God and one who does not.

  150. Definition of Grace:

    That it is the bestowal of God’s love and blessing upon undeserving sinners. Whenever God dealt in love and mercy toward sinful men, it was a demonstration of His grace.

  151. David Markham Mar 15th 2013

    Lightening Storm. In Christ I am a new creation. The flesh will want to sin but it no longer had an ally with our soul. Our mind, will and emotions. The word say that we have the mind of Christ. Our sinful nature existed in our soul. We had no power over sin!! Thank you Jesus for the completed work of the cross. I now an free from the law of son and death which was my former nature!!

  152. Averyl Mar 15th 2013

    Linda & George, – AMEN!!!

    God looks on the heart.
    Not so easy for us to do!
    We look at what people do, listen to what they say, read what they write, – and get confused!

    Time to judge ourselves.

  153. watchful Mar 15th 2013

    Amen and praise Jesus, Jda016…….how can we deny the simple truth..? Now I understand why we have been so powerless and fruitless, especially compared to the early church….Jesus said, “If you would be my disciples……..”…..How did the disciples live..? They left EVERYTHING to follow Jesus. May the Lord bless our brother here who comes preaching substance, it is MEAT to me.

  154. Anna M. Mar 15th 2013

    @ George…good word!

  155. If you prayed and asked Jesus into your heart, was there ever a point where He might leave you? What if you decided to leave him? Questions Keith and Melody Green had as new believers.

    Do you have these same questions? The real question should be “can someone lose their faith”?

    These doctrines of Jesus have the true answer!

    Revelations 3:15-16 (Jesus)…wish’s (we) were cold or hot…(but)…because (many) are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, (He) will vomit (them) out of (His) mouth.

    Hebrews 10:38 (Jesus said)…the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, (His) soul (would have) no pleasure in him.

    1 Timothy 4:1 …the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith…

    1Timothy 6:10 …some (will stray) from the faith in their greediness, and (pierce) themselves through with many sorrows.

    1 Timothy 1:19 …some (have allready)…suffered shipwreck…(their faith)…

    Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God…

    Luke 22:32 (Jesus)…prayed for (us), that (our) faith should not fail…


    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to (Jesus), ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of (His) Father in heaven. Many will say to (Him) in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then (He) will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

    2 Timothy 2:19 …the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

    You who believe and are contending for the faith stand fast…

    1Peter 1:8-9 …rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith— the salvation of your souls.

  156. You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.” (Acts 7:51-53 NASB)


    What was the Law?

    It was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your mind…

    Who ever did this?

    No one…

    Except Jesus…

    The whole point of the Law was to reveal to mankind their hopeless position before the Lord…

    They just didn’t have it in them to be able to do what the Lord required…

    To be able to love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind meant that they would need to be completely selfless…

    Not thinking about themselves or their condition but only thinking about the Glory of God…

    Glorifying the Name of the Lord in all the earth…

    Why does Stephen say they were always resisting the Holy Spirit?

    Because only the Holy Spirit can do this in a person…

    Why does the Holy Spirit through Stephen say that they were uncircumcised in hearts and ears?

    Because they didn’t have a new heart in which the Holy Spirit dwelt…

    They just didn’t have it…

    And because they just didn’t have it they were resisting the Holy Spirit as He “strove” with them…

    But He doesn’t “strive” forever…

    When you come to the end of yourself and understand that “apart from Me you can do nothing” (as Jesus said) it is then that you realise that the Holy Spirit is quite capable of doing everything…

    He’s already done this in Jesus…

    He carried Jesus through the cross and caused Him to rise again from the dead…

    He inhabits us who He has given a new heart to and a new spirit to – we – those of us who are born again by the Holy Spirit – must not resist Him…

    He (the Holy Spirit) told me when I was back in Manila, “Do not strive in My Presence”, He also told me, “Do not resist My Holy Spirit” (You hem me in behind and before You have laid Your Hand upon me)…

    When He is in us and we are surrendered to Him there is nothing which He can not do through us…

    So that as John says, “As He is so are we in this world”…

    This is the reality and this is what we – the Church – the new creations in Christ Jesus – will experience in this generation…

    We will be baptised into His Likeness through the Fire which He is bringing to this earth…

    It is “all Him”…

    It is not about us…

    It is “all Him”…

    He will declare and demonstrate His Power and all who will not submit to Him will be removed…

    The safest place and the only safe place is in submission to Him and to His will for our lives…

    There is no striving there – there is just rest – as He promised…

    He has His own timetable for each of our lives – and it involves peace as we wait before Him…

    As He leads us we follow…

  157. Jda016 Mar 16th 2013

    Amen Jonathan! Those Scriptures make it very clear.

  158. Jda016 Mar 16th 2013

    Amen Andrew!

  159. Serenity Mar 16th 2013

    Thank you Jorge for your transparency. If only we would all be that humble and transparent with at least one person in the Body of Christ. Questions arise, What might someone do with that knowledge of our frailty in that area. (Delilah.)

    Paul wept, saying,” Many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping ; the enemies of the cross of the Christ : whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and their glory is in their shame, who mind the earthly things.” Phil.3 : 18 & 19.

    There it is in a nutshell, again.

    Surely that true story (above) about the man who shot others and himself shows clearly the fruit of (mindless) hyper grace message.
    God surely expects us to employ some commonsense and balance as we think about these issues.

  160. Michael Deitz Mar 16th 2013

    It might not mean anything but I’ve never seen in my 41 years as a believer “too much Grace” (hyper-grace?) cause a sin problem. I can’t say that I ever heard Jesus or Paul indicate that “too much Grace” causes a sin problem. What gets a person “saved” (born-again)? Grace through faith! Do we leave Grace after that and return to behavioral modification? Salvation by Grace……continuance by the Law? I have on the other hand seen religious requirements such as repentance taught before forgiveness cause incredible sin issues. A sure way to give a “license” to sin is to preach/teach against sin. It is how sin is empowered. Now there are countless Biblical instances from Adam to John (The Revelation of Jesus Christ) of man trying to circumnavigate God’s Grace to earn Grace by his own performance. This form of self-righteousness can range from “in your face” to subtle little “add-ons” to The Gospel. We should be much more careful of our little additions that make a mockery of the completeness accomplished thru the Finished Work of The Christ than be concerned of too much Grace. Hello!?! Do you want a “horror story”? Read Paul’s letter to the churches at Galatia. “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you (they were deserting GRACE to retreat into law, and they bore the responsibility for their defection) by the GRACE of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some (the Judaizers, a group of “so-called” brothers who supposedly were sent from the church @ Jerusalem who were adding “circumcision” to the Gospel) who are disturbing you, and want to DISTORT the gospel of Christ. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (is it wrong to plug in here any ritual or action that implies self justification aside from The Finished Work of Jesus?), Christ will be of NO BENEFIT to you. You have been SEVERED from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have FALLEN FROM GRACE. This is WAY harsh! This same “horror story” occurs also in the letter to the Hebrews in the church @ Rome. The issue, again, was about too little Grace (or leaving Grace) retreating to the Law which is simply the trying to work or earn Grace on our own merits or efforts. Why don’t we see this as a horror, horrible, sinful, hyper-law? Why would Grace be targeted then, as it is today, in the exact manor? Grace…. a license to sin, or, the reason not to sin? We can attach “hyper” to anything.
    Mike D.

  161. Serenity Mar 16th 2013

    Some folk asked for specific ‘hypergrace’ teachers.

    I don’t follow tv preachers, nor do I have a tv, but 10 years ago I saw Chas Stanley on tv at someone’s house, and 10 days ago I saw him on a tv again, and he was still on about how you could never lose your salvation, no matter what you did.
    What is the root of his continual harping on this ?

    It seems to me that we all tend slightly (or much !) to one side or the other on this issue.
    Jesus did say, “STRIVE to enter by the NARROW door: for MANY, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able when once the house-master is risen up, and has shut to the door, … ” Luke 13 : 24 – 25.
    ‘Many’ could mean ‘millions’ ; I hope it doesn’t.

    Peter said, ” … if you call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to the work of each, pass the time of your sojourning in FEAR : … ”
    (1 Peter 1 : 17.
    Life is very serious business.

    However, a soul tormented with doubts over God’s trustworthiness, needs to be comforted with the gentler verses which point out His kindness.

    Some of us, not self-disciplined by nature or upbringing, need to keep in mind the severity of the Lord to a greater degree.

    Thank you Andrew for giving us this forum to learn from each other and from the Word.

  162. I wonder how many here are leaning towards Calvinism or even hyper-Calvinism in their views on grace?

    Grace is not a license to sin, but this does not mean its impossible to sin. The Bible says, “if we sin”, not when we sin, there is the difference.

    Sure we have a new nature, the old man is buried in water baptism. But we still have a mind that needs to be continually renewed in God’s Word.

    Man is triune, we have a soul that lives in this body and we have a spirit. The soul is considered to be the seat of the emotions and desires.

    When God takes us to heaven we will receive a new body, and our soul and spirit will be included in the equation.

    Jesus said, to fear the one who can cast both the soul and the body into hellfire.


  163. Serenity Mar 16th 2013

    Yes, Michael Deitz, you have detailed one ‘horror story’ : people turning to legalism to deepen their faith.

    The other end of the stick is people turning to lawlessness to show their freedom from bondage to law.

    Either one leads to spiritual death from what I read in the Scriptures.

    The testimonies of Grant and SLY SI and Davo above, show the dangers of lawless ‘Christianity’.

    Jude said, “… certain men have crept in privily, who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, UNGODLY, TURNING the GRACE of our GOD into lasciviousness, and denying the only MASTER and our LORD, Jesus Christ “. Jude 4.

    This is the problem with the twisted, unScriptural, form of ‘grace’ being foisted upon some congregations today.
    It is leading simple souls astray – even to Hell.

  164. Michael Deitz Mar 16th 2013

    Could you give me a New Testament writing (Gospel or letter), chapter and verse, where it indicated that too much Grace lead to “lawlessness”. Testimonies are great, and I have a kazillion, but they all still fall subject to the “Word”. Man can, and has, and will continue to twist (pervert) the Goodness of God. Because there is a perversion is good evidence there is the genuine. I won’t cast out the genuine for the sake of the perversion.
    mike D.

  165. Serenity Mar 16th 2013

    Hi Mike D.

    I absolutely believe in God’s grace because it is Scriptural and real and without it I would have been rejected decades ago.

    The subject we are dealing with is a PERVERSION of grace, which has been titled ‘hypergrace’.
    It does not deserve the holy name of ‘the grace of God’.

    Jude 4 covers it well. Ungodly people, in the name of ‘grace’, are justifying all sorts of behaviours that Bible-believing Christians would have nothing to do with, in the past, or today.

    Their own wicked hearts lead them astray. God’s grace and His ways are perfect.
    Second Peter 3 : 14 – 18 covers a lot of this ground too.

    Grace to you brother Mike.

  166. Andrew F Mar 16th 2013

    For 20 years I could not find rest is Christ. Then I was delivered from my unbelief, depression, anger, and hopelessness.

    Anyone who loves his sin and doesn’t want to change gives evidence that he is lost.

    When Jesus changes you, you begin to hate sin and love righteousness.

    I know so-called Christians who live very moral lives who are consumed by materialism. They are lost.

    I know people who fail often but they weep and cry to Jesus to deliver them. They will be saved in the end.

    Hyper-Grace is a misleading term. It really means “let us sin so that grace abounds” Overflowing grace brings righteousness or it is not grace at all. It is deception.

  167. Michael Deitz Mar 16th 2013

    You are correct, and I, stand corrected. It’s those darn “false brethren” (bogus brothers) who subtly infiltrated the dispersed Jewish churches (AD 68) and spread a false doctrine that perverts God’s grace to be license to sin. The false brethren (who are these people?) have successfully disguised themselves as true believers and have managed to partake of the Lord’s Supper with the church. One of their false teachings was to distort the gospel by advocating sexual license under the banner of God’s grace. Jude, seeing Peter’s second letter, sees the fulfillment of Peter’s prediction about the coming of false teachers coming to pass before his eyes. He is burdened concerning false teaching and pens The Letter of Jude. A bit of the Church History. Things haven’t changed much, have they.
    Mike D.

    Be blessed and praise the LORD.
    the walk is simple when all affections are above.
    Paul did both. He exhorted and told them to stay only in sound
    ITs not me who desires to be LORD over any.
    ITs the Love of GOD to share and encourage and exhort and warn.
    My desire is to be servant to all,
    and i truly do have a good strong unction of the spirit
    to get us back in only the bible.
    IF we simply lived the sermon on the mount, JESUS words,
    they are LIFE, and life abundantely.
    I only desire to share what i know .
    Take note………..i have said………….GO back to only bible
    and just live by what JESUS said.
    IF all we did was read only the bible
    and learned anew just that. OUR differences
    would begin to stop. and we would
    all come to the same simple mind . Opinions or differences
    occur because some still have teachings of churches
    in them. or words of men.
    BUT if we would just examine repeatedly
    the gosples, the letters to the churches
    and with just a LOVE of the truth and for one another
    strifes would be less and less, we would all grow in unity in the FAITH which the early apostels described.
    the words which JESUS said, and the early apostels lived.
    There was no contradiction with any of the appostels
    writings to the churches, and all of them
    , the letters i mean, they all agreed with what JESUS had said
    . THIS simplicity in CHRIST is what i speak of.
    The strifes and divisions will not benefit any of us.
    BUT working together to come unto the UNITY of the FAITH
    will benefit the whole lot of us. I love you all.
    I truly do. To me the walk is VERY SIMPLE
    and i have GREAT peace.
    its easy………….THE LOVE OF GOD
    shed upon our hearts does fullfill the law.
    and the LOVE of GOD
    will never make void ANY THING nor transgress anything
    the Father has said.
    ITS so simple. IF jesus said to do…………we do
    IF GOD has called something unclean, abomination
    sin etc………..WE simply with his LOVE in our hearts
    DO as HE said…………..and DONT do what he said NOT TO DO.
    BUT some have twisted doctrines off here and there.
    and if we would BUT just begin anew
    with the FIRST LOVE upon our hearts.
    THE LOVE of the TRUTH……………
    the LOVE of our neighbor and their welfare above our own.
    Reading the scrips daily, and learning because we LOVE TRUTH
    we will begin MORE and more to come together unto the unity of the faith. and we will begin with pure love to simply be here
    for one another ,because we TRULY LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
    not to prove any points, but just with LOVE
    to help the other. THIS is peace. and PRAISE GOD.
    HIS word gives us all the wisdom to be made wise
    unto salvation through our faith in CHRIST.
    men have messed this up………….
    BUT in CHRIST , my only hope is we begin anew
    and come together to truly Love one another.
    TO truly seek GODS WILL ONLY.
    THIS is all i desire. amen.

  169. Serenity Mar 16th 2013

    Bless you Mike.

  170. Anyone who loves his sin and doesn’t want to change gives evidence that he is lost.

    When Jesus changes you, you begin to hate sin and love righteousness.

    I know so-called Christians who live very moral lives who are consumed by materialism. They are lost.

    I know people who fail often but they weep and cry to Jesus to deliver them. They will be saved in the end.

    Amen to what you shared Andrew F… 🙂

  171. Amen to Serenity and Mike D’s conversation (and the conclusion to it) also… 🙂

  172. RANDALL LOWREY: You are correct – the apostle Paul did both.

    However, the point I was attempting to make is that those who preach or teach “read the Bible ONLY,” are promoting a lop-sided view of the graces of God.

    Very often such “teaching” also includes the aspect of bashing any teaching by men (as you appear to be doing).

    You will not find anyone who stands more upon the Scriptures as God’s written revelation and their supremacy for all matter of faith and practice than what I do. However, part of those Scriptures tell me that God has provided more graces for our growth and maturity in Christ than the Scriptures only.

    Some of those graces God provides for our growth and maturing in Christ beside the Scriptures are:
    (1) The Holy Spirit. He is our supreme Teacher. He alone gives spiritual understanding (John 16:13 – 15; 1 Corinthians 2).
    (2) Christ has provided gifts to His Church. One of those gifts is that of teacher (Ephesians 4:8 – 16). Closely linked with this are those who are preachers, evangelists, prophets, pastors, and apostles and elders/overseers/bishops/shepherds. All of these callings include aspects of teaching the Word of God to believers (or unbelievers as the case may be).
    (3) The rest of the Body of Christ. Christ has designed His Church to be interconnected and to rely upon one another – very much as any part of a human body does not stand alone but relies on the other part of the body to be able to function properly. This includes not only those living at the present time but also those parts of the Body who have died, but who have left us with their witness and/or teachings.

    There are those who bash an organized Church and (with a certain amount of pride) proclaim that all they need as a Christian is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. Many of those have contributed to Andrew Strom’s forums.

    Without getting into a huge dissertation on the role of the organized Church as seen in the NT, suffice it to say that it is one of the major graces God has given to believers which is most ignored, marginalized, and rejected in this modern age. We live in a culture which magnifies and promotes individualism and such influences have perverted many believers’ perception of Christ’s Church.

    In my 50 years of walking with the Lord, pastoring, and interacting with believers from many denominations and those who refuse to be part of a local body of believers, I have observed those who have ignored, marginalized, and/or rejected the organized Church of Jesus Christ. Without fail, all those I have encountered like this are walking in spiritual error, deception, and/or false doctrines. In many of these cases, I have noticed a stunted spiritual growth – and often, a lack of spiritual fruit (as the Scriptures describe).

    Hence, I have concerns about those who speak of rejecting all spiritual teachers and claim ALL they need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Ironically, they usually fancy themselves to be teachers and want to correct those who refuse to participate in their heresies.

    As we’ve been focussing on “God’s grace” in our discussion of “hyper-grace” let’s not ignore the many “graces” God has provided for our growth and development in Christ.

    In this context, I would also disagree with your exhortation to “read the Bible only.” There is far more to God’s intention for His Word than merely reading. We are to study it (which includes sitting under teachers Christ has so gifted), memorize it, and devour it as spiritual food. We are to apply it (which happily you have promoted). We are to use it as a spiritual sieve through which everything in our lives should be run, sifting out those things which are of God from those things which are not – i.e. it is to be our Guide and/or spiritual measuring stick.

    It is interesting that you believe that “reading the Bible only” will produce unity in the Body of Christ. My Bible tells me that it is the Holy Spirit which brings unity in Christ’s Church. If any believer is in unity with the Holy Spirit, then he or she will be in unity with every other believer who is in unity with the Holy Spirit. The sad truth is that much division in the Body of Christ has been rooted in those who “read the Bible only.” Ignoring the other graces I’ve listed above contributes to error, heresies, and division.

    I do commend you for the spirit I sense in which you have written – and, as you said in one of your posts, this type of communication is not ideal for good communication. It may be that I have misunderstood what you were saying. If this is the case, then please forgive me. It could be that these interactions will be of benefit to some who read them.

    God bless, brother.
    Yours in Christ, Wayne

  173. Randall Lowery
    Good comment here and I agree.

    The problem is that most in the dead system defend it with a zealous pride. The truth of the matter is that the dead religious system we have today is only a dry husk of Christianity.

    Many have turned Christianity into a dead ritual of works and then finding they need to entertain people to keep them in the system.

    The problem we see today is that most churches practice easy believism. Where people are told to just raise your hand while everyones head is bowed and eyes are closed. That way you won’t have to feel ashamed when you decide to believe in Jesus. No one is looking as all eyes are closed.

    Most who attend these dead religious organizations end up being indoctrinated away from the Bible. So much they are told is not for today as we live in modern times.

    I cannot find where the modern church of today mirrors the New Testament Christianity. Any casual observance would show they are definitely not alike in any shape or form.

    Do we all just look the other way while the church ministers convince everyone that this is the way?

    The truth of the matter is that the division in the church is because ministers are sending mixed messages that are no way like what the Bible claims. It is interesting that a minister would point people to branch out and read what ever comes down the pike.

    For instance in most groups you would only be told to read what is written by those who belong to that group. So a person is continually indoctrinated with their brand of easy believism.

    There is so many today who are writing books that are full of error and heresay, new age thinking, etc. If I remember correctly men who were mightly used of the Lord like Smith Wigglesworth only read the Bible.

    I am not saying a man cannot read other writings but there is a need to recognize that everything out there is not pointing people towards the truth of the Bible.

    Because of this I understand your statement. To be honest a lot of ministers in the dead system are sending a mixed message to the body of Christ at large and this is the reason so many have been divided.


  174. Ron Warne Mar 16th 2013

    Another word missing from the Hyper Grace circuit; Repent! According to it’s adherants, one simply needs to “come to Jesus.” As Billy Graham once said; “yes, Jesus accepts us as we are, but he loves us too much to leave us that way!” The first Word of Christ as He began his public ministry was “repent!”
    Jesus didn’t die on the cross to save us from Hell, Jesus went to the cross to save mankind from sin.

  175. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Ron, have you even heard a Grace teacher. Sat in a meeting last week with a Grace teacher, I can’t even tell you how many times he used the word Repent!! Repentance simply means to turn from something to something else. As in turn from sin to righteousness. Turn from the Law to Grace. Turn from dead works to life in the Spirit. Turn from death to life. Remember, Christ was speaking to Jews under the Law. Contrary to what you are saying, repentance is not a dirty word in Grace circles.

  176. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    The ERROR of the so called “hyper grace” people -(I use that label to describe people who use the concept of grace as a licence to sin)- their erro is that they view grace as some kind of an iIMPERSONAL THING, or they view grace as an “IT”. This error is not unique to theses people. It is also the view of grace that the legalists have of grace. The difference is that the legalists view grace as a FORCE or an INFLUENCE or a MOTIVATION or a POWER. This too is in error.

    Almost everyone in the modern church adheres to the FALSE notion that grace is a CONTRACT or an AGREEMENT between God and His people. This too is in error.


    Grace in the Bible is the PERSONAL, santifying and loving PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF through His Spirit.


    God NEVER gives grace or extends grace APART FORM HIS OWN ACTIVE LOVING HOLY PRESENCE!

    Therefore This is why it is is never possible to have “hyper grace” !!!! Anyone who CLAIMS to be experiencing grace and who is using it as a licence to sin HAS NO PARTICPATION WHATSOEVER in biblical grace. They are LYING AND THEY ARE DECEIVED! Since grace CAN NEVER be separated from the HOLY ONE!

    This is also why IT IS VERY FOOLISH AND DANGEROUS to undermine, speak against, neglect or ignore grace. He who does this IS ALSO IN GREAT DECPETION AND DANGER!!

    To undermine, speak against, neglect or ignore grace IS TO UNDERMINE, SPEAK AGAINST, NEGLECT AND IGNORE THE PRESENCE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!

    Therefore listen to what the Holy Spirit says through this man:
    “He who,ignores this word- God , who gives you His Holy Spirit -will ignore him.”


    I once knew a man and his family that claimed to be Christians, who engaged in shoplifting. When I asked him why he and his family shop lifted, since he was suppose to be a follower of Yeshua (Jesus), he said he could shop lift because he was under God’s grace. The so-called GRACE of God that he had was teaching him to say “YES” to ungodliness and worldly passions.

    Titus 2:11-12, “For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “NO” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,…”

  178. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:14, 16, 18 NASB)

    The ESSENCE of the Trinity IS GRACE!

  179. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    Biblical Christianity and biblical discipleship is NOT what WE do for God or others.
    Biblical discipleship is what GOD DOES FOR US, in us and through us THROUGH THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

  180. Robert Mar 16th 2013

    Help! My problem with hyper-grace is not that it will lead to some sort of licentiousness which seems to be the main objection. Anyone who deliberately continues in unrepentant sin has not, in my opinion, sincerely accepted Christ’s gift of mercy and grace through His suffering, death and resurrection.

    A dear brother has come from a legalistic background and embraced the truth about God’s grace that has been outlined so elegantly with gentleness and love in all these posts—which is a good thing. But I think he is at risk of going down a rabbit trail of false teaching. He already has stopped attending our local church because he believes they are teaching combination of law and grace. In my opinion he is somehow unable to differentiate the message from the pulpit directed at the lost among us, (who need to hear that they are sinners in need of a savior) and to that of believers who are already justified. Any mention of sin in our lives, he internalizes and incorrectly concludes the pastor is directing it at him and condemning him all over again. (He gives lip service about focusing on Christ, but it seems his understanding of grace seems to lead him to focus on himself all the time)

    My questions center in part, on the notion of “being,” not “doing,” as it has been expressed in these posts. I believe receiving the gift of grace through the Christ’s work on the cross demands a response. Where there is no response, I would argue there is no transformation. I asked my friend how he responds to God’s grace and his reply is I’m not allowed to ask such a question as it focuses on doing, not being. (his answer, ironically, is a form of legalism—telling me what I am allowed or not allowed to ask)

    He also plays a word game with the word “I” as it relates to sin. Say, for instance, my friend who is a believer commits a sin. He says it wasn’t “He” who committed the sin because it is impossible for a believer to sin. It is only his flesh that sins and “he” is no longer living in the flesh, but rather he is living in the Spirit. I have a big problem with this because it reduces and limits the Christian life to our thought life only and not physical, natural, relational lives. My question is: how does obedience fit into grace beyond simply believing? Beyond our thought life?

    He also concludes that hyper-grace means we are fully, 100% sanctified already. To me sanctifications is a process in which we grow more Christ-like. He argues we are already 100% holy. Again, when we sin, it is not really us who are sinning. Everything I’ve read in these posts so far recognizes sanctification as a growth process. How do you answer my friend who believes he is fully sanctified already?

  181. pastor wayne…………be blessed.
    You did misunderstand me. internet witnessing is often
    hard. OF course its the HOLY SPIRIT.
    IT was the HOLY SPIRIT that TOO put a strong love
    of reading Gods words in my heart.
    Paul KNEW the importance of sound doctrine.
    and the scrips which make one wise unto salvation.
    You can see , that even here we have people bringing
    in what they learned from a man.
    IF what we learned from a man aligns with the HOLY scrips,
    rightly divided………..then amen.
    BUT these days…………………..it aint happening.
    and the one good way to get people
    to truly see……………….is to get them reading heavily
    in the bible. in the gosples.
    learning what JESUS said……………………..for themselves.
    Because any man………………..can twist any doctrine.
    But if ones heart is truly AFTER GOD
    then they will see TRUTH. and in the bible
    is TRUTH.
    and the HOLY SPIRIT will give us the understanding.
    TO sharpen one another………………..it must be rightly divided
    holy scrips of good doctrine, Holy spirit filled from within our beings. But the problem is…………….many dont really
    read the written word………….with love.
    they just take something for granted and move on.
    The greatest blessing was Being called out of darkness and into
    the light .
    a tremendous blessing was…………
    all the days of my life…………………..i was NEVER raised in any church.
    THUS…………………………………the doctrines of men concerning the bible
    were not engrained into my way of thought.
    THIS is a blessing.
    So be blessed. and praise the LORD.

  182. @ Robert

    Dear Robert, my simple answer to your friend – is that we are 100% Justified (Born again) But NOT 100% sanctified, as this is, or should be an on going process for the rest of our lives, just like you have already said.

    Amen Barry

  183. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. (John 1:16 NASB)

    “Of His fullness ” here means “OF HIS PRESENCE”

    Grace can never be separated from the PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ONE!

  184. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    “God is a very present help in trouble” in grace language would say this:


  185. Barry Schmidt Mar 16th 2013

    Grace isn’t God’s nanny! God doesn’t hire or use nannies!

  186. JulieAnn Mar 16th 2013

    Forgive me if my comments are repeating. It’s not my intention. I’m not able to see my comments after I post, so it appears as if they didn’t register. Please tell me what I’m doing wrong.

  187. JulieAnn Mar 16th 2013

    Titus 2:11-14

  188. Lightning Storm Mar 16th 2013

    AMEN again Barry Schmidt.

  189. Jesus was a pretty smart guy. He knew there would be those who would try to pervert the gospel into an excuse to sin and disobey and compromise His message.

    That is why He constantly told His disciples they had to obey Him. The great commission is teach them to obey Me. That’s on this side of the cross btw. We are to bring every thought into captivity to obey Him, Paul says. Jesus demands obedience by His own, that is clear. Jesus knows that if you aren’t convinced you have to obey, then telling you what you have to do won’t matter because you will always choose a way around keeping His instructions. He’s well acquainted with the Jews of His day who invented many pretexts to sidestep the Law. Listen to Paul:

    1Tim 6:3
    If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing

    Paul advocates no other doctrine except the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ, a doctrine conforming us to be like God. Paul’s doctrine of grace explains God’s provision for us and how Christ’s doctrine is to be fulfilled. Never is there one scintilla of Paul’s doctrine that excuses us in regard to what Christ has told us. This is religion, excusing our accountability, similar to what the Jews arrived at in their efforts to circumvent the law.

    The standard of Christ’s teaching assumes the provision of grace because His instructions are impossible for men. To follow Christ and His words is to accept that I must have help from Him. It’s a given, grace is presupposed, because without Him I will fail at keeping his words. In fact, His standard for His own is the standard of God Himself. He holds us to God’s standard.

    Merciful as He is merciful. Perfect as He is perfect. Be ye holy because I am holy. The pupil will be like his teacher. Walk even as He walked. Love as I have loved.

    How can anyone accuse someone of preaching legalism or preaching law when these standards are obviously so far out of reach for everyone. Legalism would be a lower standard that men could be held to by other men. Legalism is something that would be possible for men to fulfill. Christ’s standards are unattainable for men and yet Christ dogmatically says we must comply. What is impossible for men is possible with God. Jesus Christ holds us to an impossible standard that only God can fulfill and constrains us to an understanding and acceptance of grace as the only means of their fulfillment.

  190. Lightning Storm Mar 16th 2013

    Very good points, Robert. Amen.

    Without a CLEAR understanding that we are a 3 part person and a CLEAR understanding as to WHAT PART OF US IS BORN AGAIN and WHAT PART IS NOT, we will fall into a quagmire of FALSE beliefs.

    We also must understand CLEARLY, WHAT PART OF US IS THE SIN NATURE AND WHAT BECOMES OF OUR SIN NATURE according to scripture.

  191. Lightning Storm Mar 16th 2013

    Hyper-Grace is truly defined as being:



    Hyper-Grace would bring miracles, healings, purification, repentance, signs, and wonders. REVIVAL!

  192. Lightning Storm Mar 16th 2013

    He who sins, GRIEVES (brings emotional pain; mourning; weeping; grieving) to the Holy Spirit.

    He who sins, QUENCHES (COVERS HIS LIGHT WITH DARKNESS; hides the Light with a BUSHEL OF FLESH)
    the Holy Spirit.

    ANYTHING that is NOT OF FAITH (dependence upon the Trinity), IS SIN.

    He who walks by the Law of his OWN MIND, will be judged by the Law of his OWN MIND. He is NOT walking in the SPIRIT OF GRACE. Gal 5.

    He is walking by the Law of his CARNAL MIND.

  193. JulieAnn
    Both of your last two comments were fine, neither of them repeated on this board at least.

  194. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    So Lightening Storm, please enlighten us as to which part of us contains the sin nature?

  195. Robert
    Your friend sounds like he opened a door to deception.

    Sometimes all we can do for some individuals is pray and fast. If they start making excuses for their sins, and think the ministry is personally attacking them there could be a much deeper problem here.

    Sometimes there is no easy solution to helping others.

    I don’t believe that once we are born again that we have a sin nature as this is dealt with at the cross. We are new creations in Christ and must renew our minds according to scripture.


  196. David Markham
    I think you already know this but thought I would share it.

    II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


  197. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    I Agree Gary, just wanted Lightening Storm’s perspective.

  198. julie may be resting david m,
    so heres our sin nature
    TIS the evil in our own flesh.
    the evil we must resist………and die DAILY too.
    Davo………..made a beautiful speech.
    As paul said I DIE DAILY
    our carnality is in our flesh
    to TEACH us TO DENY THIS EVIL and all ungodliness.
    THUS every day we have a choice…………
    as we walk in the SPIRIT……….either follow HIS UNCTIONS to DENY all ungodliness of our evil flesh
    OR live after the FLESH and end up in a LAKE OF FIRE.
    now putting it that way………….PUTS a GOOD wholesome
    godly fear as NOT TO SIN.
    OR i rather enjoy JESUS own words
    TIS better to cut off thine hand, etc
    then to be cast alive into a LAKE of FIRE.
    And david………….this lake of FIRE HE SPOKE OF
    is for all WHO denied HIM , and occurs
    after one dies and awakes to judgement.
    THE fire of our trials , now that is for US believers
    and THANK GOD for it david.
    FOR when we are judged…………we are chastenend of GOD
    that we be NOT condmened with the rest of the world.
    Lake of FIRE……………is judgment at the END for all who denied HIM………
    FIRE of affliction, trials of our faith…………..ARE FOR BELIEVERS
    not unbelivers……..and OCCURS here and NOW.
    THOUGH we have had it RATHER easy.
    BUT david………………..CHANGE is coming.
    GREAT persecutions are coming.
    HERE to amercia. IN fact……………..get that trumpet
    and warn the lost………..and you will be CHASTEND EVEN NOW.
    maybe with just words and a few punches.
    BUT in a SHORT , SHORT , time………………..AMERICA
    and her churches…….will COME AGAINST the TRUE LAMBS
    as we have NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
    Roundups will begin. I know, i know ………this can happen here
    in OLE america. DEAD WRONG…………….its coming
    and FASTER THAN EVER. RFID, gay marriage
    and we will be aka……….POTENTAIL TERROISTS……
    JUDGMENTS are coming upon the church,
    but no fear……………..WE HAVE HOPE
    through the direst of circumstances……………LAMBS arise
    NOW david………………having CHRIST……………..is ALL HOPE
    is to KNOW HIM …………..anything less is mouth service.
    AND i mean HIS EVERY WORD ………….now go read that sermon on the mount. and read it not from what one may have
    been twisted into learning it…………….READ IT ANEW.
    is to KNOW HIM. FOR TO KNOW HIM………………….is to TRUST HIM. AMEN………………..so i sing………….PRAISE THE LORD.

  199. let the lambs who warn……………warn
    one thing i have seen……………..a grieveious error
    have i seen in the land
    THOSE who accuse and criticise lambs who warn
    yet they lift NOT a finger to warn the lost
    and sideline christianity
    a driver in the back seat…………..can always criticise
    OH……….but let him take the WHEEL .
    LET those who are led to warn men to repent
    or at the very LEAST PRAY FOR THEM.
    SOULS must be won……………and as paul said
    how can they hear………….lest a preacher be sent.
    TO SIT and judge………………..and not lift a finger
    is grievious error.
    IF we can do better…………….GO DO IT
    but leave those sent to warn be. amen.

  200. as with many……………….an error occurs
    when one becomes so entangled in scripture
    that they cannot see the WHOLE of was has been written.
    Many times and often they are corrected,
    but see but the half.
    as with doctrines of men this is.
    A doctrine RIGHTLY understood
    will never contradict in another place.
    But as it is written…………men that are unleaned
    and UNSTABLE, wrest scriptures to their own destruction.
    a DOUBLE minded man is UNSTABLE.
    so the key is ALL , ALL, affections above.
    GODLINESS with contentment is GREAT…………GREAT gain.
    that is so simple. amen.

  201. david……………..be blessed.
    And all others.
    GARY………………….on the first post
    you said i have often wondered why they are not convicted or dont see…………
    DEEP down you KNOW the answer.
    A child of GOD, whose heart is on the LORD
    will HEAR his VOICE and anothers they wont.
    with all thy heart…………………..
    You already knew that. THE falling away is MASSIVE.
    remember where paul warned timothy men
    will be lovers of PLEASURE more than GOD
    or where they will heap up teachers.
    You, me and anyone else believes from the heart
    will be given TRUTH……………..
    What many dont understand is………
    GOD gives ALL MEN the desires of their heart.
    AND this is for good or unto their own delusions.
    a heart AFTER GOD…………….is KEY
    and heart after any thing else……………………..is just that
    GOD and someting else…………..
    NOT GOD, but the something else.
    THIS really is a simple walk. TO LOVE OUR GOD
    with the WHOLE heart…………………is through ALL TIMES
    good or bad…………..come what may,
    with the strong , strong prayer of LORD thy WILL BE DONE.
    WE must all help one another.
    Deep down gary…………..you knew the answer, before you wrote
    the question. DID GOD allow us to hear that and believe those things…………NO…………..HE KEPT US FROM IT
    WHY…………………….THOSE truly IN CHRIST, will hear ONLY TRUTH…………….its all about OUR HEARTS DESIRE.
    ALL OF IT. WHAT WE CHOOSE and choose daily. amen.
    SO i pray for all………….CHOOSE GOD……………..and NOTHING else. amen.

  202. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Randall it’s sad that you have not met the God of the New Covenant. Bought and paid for by the completed work of Christ on the cross. You still view God as an angry vengeful God just waiting to bring judgement on the earth. It’s his kindness that brings us to repentance. His perfect love has cast out all fear. According to your rants, we can be saved one day, lost the next, saved the next, lost the next….. based on the choices we make daily. I fear that you don’t fully understand Grace at all. Our Salvation is not based on our ability to remember every sin we may have committed today. You want to live in eternal insecurity, I choose to live in the security of his Grace. You don’t give his Grace enough credit.

    THE HEART IS ABOVE……………..NOT here
    So many use the NEW creature outta text
    from prosperity preachers to false grace ones.
    which is NOT GRACE, but pervesion , or another gosple.
    A NEW creatrue is NOT LIKE the WORLD, NOT like his old self
    his old trusts, they get burned out and more of it in time,
    hidden faults are what i speak of……….Growing up into maturity
    is what i speak of…….
    YET even with this heart of mine above
    I see the evils in my own flesh…………
    NOT to act them OUT…………..
    BUT then more grace…………..to bring them unto the obediance of CHRIST………….every THOUGHT obediant.
    THIS is life. The evils must be crucified daily.
    an easy examplle ………………..when a bad thought arises
    STOP thinking IT
    An example of GRACE is………….when a half dressed person
    comes in view………..THE SPIRIT always says NOT TO LOOK.
    the FLESH is CONTRARY and wants to LOOK.
    BUT if we dont look…………..THEN we will NEVER act out
    the next part. adultery etc………………..
    the evil is in mens hearts,,,,,,,,,,
    and cannot be subject . BUT GRACE is HIS SPIRIT
    having US to suject this body. I HOPE i made this a lil more clear. NO man will be without excuse
    GOD reached out to me ………..before i came to HIM.
    and i was given a CHOICE………………..CHOOSE YE THIS DAY…..
    and my heart said……….YOUR FACE LORD shall i seek.
    this flesh will not rest…………….till we are given NEW GLORIFED
    bodies………..and that dont happen TILL JESUS comes back.
    SO ……………….RESIST all evil………..and FIGHT the GOOD fight of faith. amen.

  204. THE CHOICE is ours……
    like paul said……………..i keep my body UNDER subjection.
    the choice is ours…………….
    the Holy spirit will guide us, and the scrips will make us wise
    unto salvation through OUR FAITH in CHRIST
    so lambs………….take comfort in the holy scrips
    peter said that…………..SO WILL I………….amen.
    I know i wrote much today.
    BUT i love you all. WE need to be on gaurd against evils
    and from this all………
    this should show us…………just how wrong it is to JUDGE anyone.
    WHEN we ourselves could not have the POWER or would even have the DESIRE…………..were it not for GODS grace.
    BUT this grace……………..let it not be IN VAIN……..
    LABOUR lambs………………………labor …….. warn , encourage etc
    Paul once talked about not recieving this grace in vain,
    and that he laboured MORE abundatenly than did all the apostles
    , YET NOT HE…………but the GRACE OF GOD.
    THIS is why i desire us to just read what they said.
    over and over again. just LOVE truth, LOVE and embrace
    GODS word. WISDOM amen.

  205. Our brother Randall, in his exhortation to the living members of the Body of Christ, in his opposition to licentious grace, recommended the reading of Jude.

    1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ,

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

  206. Brother Randell lowrey
    Maybe deep down in my heart I could of come to some conclusion and explained it away.

    But in the article, Jessica mentioned people who she had spent time with turning from the Lord. I guess I took it that the minister started preaching on hyper-grace and everyone just left the word to follow a different path.

    This is what I was referring to if the message changed why were Christians not perceptive?

    I personally know of no ministry that comes out and preaches Hyper-grace as the article stated, encouraging game nights and bar hopping over the teaching of the Bible. It seemed like a drastic contrast.


  207. Greg J Mar 16th 2013

    A highly recommended book to read concerning these matters …
    “Spurgeon V. Hyper-Calvinism” – “The Battle for Gospel Preaching” By Iain Murray (Banner of Truth)

  208. Paul in his letter of admonishment to the Church at Corinth concerning Communion at the Lord’s Covenant Table, uses the same historic imagery as Jude in verse 5 as he warns the church. Moreover brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual food; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1st Corinthian 10 verse 1 thru 5. When looking at the previous scripture did you notice that many of those who were baptized into the covenant, suffered extreme sanctions for their unbelief. Wherefore, those who think they stand, take heed lest they fall. (1st Corinthians 10 verse 12.)

    God is Love, and that Love of God is encompassed as one with His other supreme attributes within the infinite essence of His unchangeable Holiness. Therefore, even as God is Love within His Holiness, there is no possibility of any shadow or form of darkness being cast from the Spirit of His being, so then also, in Yahweh God’s infinite holiness, He is Just and remains constant and true in His Justice against evil. Perhaps we need to understand that the absolute Holiness of God precludes a human understanding of what is erroneously called God’s unconditional love. Witness the testimony of the Spirit of Scripture where Satan and the third of the angelic beings were forcibly compelled by the glorious brightness of God’s holiness to exit from the presence of God. If that were the case, as it is, then the infinite holiness of the God of Love preempted the rebellion of the angelic beings and expelled them into their own darkness of choosing. And so it is with mankind’s rebellion against the God of the living. Jesus did not say in vain, I AM the Way, and the Truth and the Life of man. No one comes to the Father but by Me. The Truth of the Perfect Love of the Father, is in His incarnate Son; and God in the perfection of His Love is not willing that any man should perish, but come to a new beginning of Covenant Life within His Son. Those who in holy faith live by Jesus Christ in the New Contract with Life Himself, will not be as the worm of the soul of a dead man, but that soul being made alive in the resurrection of the Beloved, will behold the face of God.

    Robert Glenn

  209. Lightning Storm Mar 16th 2013

    Dear David Markham

    Identifying the sin nature has been done by several people, including myself. So do the scriptures, particularly Romans, Ephesians, Galatians.
    You have unbelief.

    More discussion and more knowledge does not change our minds and our belief system.

    You speak truth when you ask for ENLIGHTENMENT.

    Mar 9:24 NASB
    Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”

  210. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Don’t judge me as having unbelief just because I disagree with your beliefs. Just for fun, tell me one more time if the sin nature is in your flesh, soul or spirit?

  211. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Your arrogance shows your lack of understanding. It appears you fancy yourself as a modern day John the Baptist. You have an incredible distorted view of God. You won’t lead many to Christ by constantly pronouncing judgement on them. Check your heart my friend. You almost always sound angry..

  212. booter Mar 16th 2013

    All this ‘Hyper-Grace’ stuff sounds like someone’s justification to exert their own free-will (Sin-Free) = outside the boundaries of GOD’s Truths.

    They might as well be calling it: Ultra Man-Grace, or the Anti-Christian Theology, or the Politically-Correct / Ear-Tickling / Self-Serving Belief in Human-Actualization Fellowship.

    What part of: Commitment, Obedience, Faith, Inerrant Word of GOD, & Only One True GOD, do people Not Understand?

    GOD Bless Everyone! & consider the Season of The Word.

  213. booter Mar 16th 2013

    I have also found that ‘one who looks for the Truth in the details (minutiae) isn’t really looking for an answer (more = ‘rhetorical based in denial’) than an actual question seeking Truth.

    In effect this is a technique to misdirect their own core Beliefs (damage control).

    GOD Bless

  214. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Booter, do more research before you comment. I have not heard a Grace teacher encourage or condone sin.

  215. jorgedelaselva Mar 16th 2013

    Please beware all of the caution that Paul gave to the immature Corinthians in regards to debate, envying, and strifes. Judgmental criticism of one’s opinoin over another is pure and simple disrespect and pride. If you habitually are belittling others opinions you will be known as one who does not have real love when trying to reach the unsaved.

  216. Averyl Mar 16th 2013

    Want another hyper-grace horror story?

    My neighbour who considers herself a Christian & used to go to C3, believes it’s OK to be a prostitute because Jesus loves them & said they’d get to heaven before alot of good people.

    Nothing I can say convinces her otherwise!

  217. watchful Mar 16th 2013

    This is a really lively board today, and I’m drinking from a well of life and praising God, thank you Lord and I ask that you bless my brothers and sisters here. Davo, I was blessed by your post, to me you really nailed it.

    Gary B, one thing in case it is helpful, the Lord has helped me to understand that one reason for deception and lack of perception among Christians has to do with the lack of carrying crosses…that to me is maybe the worst problem with the error of “hyper-grace gospel” is that it induces people to put down their crosses thinking they are automatically covered by grace.

    David M – “You still view God as an angry vengeful God just waiting to bring judgement on the earth.” Dear brother can I just share that the world is appointed unto wrath, and has been under judgment since Adam and Eve……One day I was helped to see that all we need do is open a newspaper and see the reality of all the suffering in the world, sickness, disease, thievery, heinous crimes, wars, tortures, perversions, darkness, slavery, abuses, dire poverty, fatherlessness, stress, mental problems, death and dying through famines, natural disasters, etc, etc…..All these things should be a warning to us and help us to know the beginning of wisdom which is the fear of the Lord. The funny thing about grace is that in order to receive it, we first must realize that we need it, and really we can only realize our need of it in the face of His righteous laws and the awful reality of our JUST desserts

  218. David Markham Mar 16th 2013

    Watchful, the problem with Storms thinking is, he sees God angry and vengeful toward Christians.

  219. ROBERT: It appears that your Christian brother may have a number of issues which create the problems you see in his life.

    I may not be able to help with it all, but may be able to offer some insight which might be helpful.

    You said, “He also plays a word game with the word “I” as it relates to sin. Say, for instance, my friend who is a believer commits a sin. He says it wasn’t “He” who committed the sin because it is impossible for a believer to sin. It is only his flesh that sins and “he” is no longer living in the flesh, but rather he is living in the Spirit.”

    What you have described appears to be an ancient heresy which was part of a sect known as the Gnostics (or Gnosticism). Part of their beliefs was a dualistic separation of the flesh and the spirit – or the material world vs. the spiritual world. Their heresies and error were numerous and quite varied, but they did believe that the things done in the material world (or by “the flesh”) did not matter; it was the spiritual which was important. So, if they committed “sins” in the flesh it really did not matter – they focussed on their spiritual righteousness and it was only the spiritual things which had any eternal effect. As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes, “There is nothing new under the sun.”

    Correction to error can only come through proper teaching of the Word and its doctrines coupled with the working of the Holy Spirit. Certainly one Scripture which may help bring some correction to your friend is 1 John 1:8 which plainly states, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (NKJV). You may want to read it in context pointing out that the epistle was written to born-again believers. His claim that believers cannot sin does not hold true with Scripture.

    I suspect he may also have had some erroneous teaching from 1 John 3 which states that one born of God cannot sin. If this is the case, I urge you to read my earlier post which shows from the Greek that what it more accurately says is that one born of God cannot “habitually practice sin.”

    On the contrary, 1 John 1 makes it quite clear that believers do sin at times. You may also want to point out the numerous epistles of Paul which makes it clear he is writing to believers – but which point out sins they are involved in and the correction he brings to them in his epistles.

    Concerning your friend’s issue of “believing vs. doing,” I believe the Scriptures teach that while Christ’s finished work on the cross satisfied God’s justice on the believer’s behalf, that God has deigned or designed that the work in the believer’s life after the point of regeneration is co-operative work between God and the believer. There are numerous Scriptures which outright tell us this or strongly implies it. A few of these are:
    (1) 2 Corinthians 6:1 – “we are workers together with Him.”
    (2) Philippians 2:12 – “. . . continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling . . .”
    (3) 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul makes it clear that the believer’s works (doings) will be judged by fire.
    (4) 1 Peter 1:17 (and others) which tells us that God will judge us according to our works.
    (5) Ephesians 4:17 – 32 (and others) which not only tells believers that they are “to do” but also provides some very practical examples of what that doing is to look like. While some may argue that it is Christ who does the work in us – and we cannot accomplish anything of eternal value without His Spirit, power, and grace – the fact is that in numerous Scriptures (including this one) that WE are to do it. As I said earlier, God’s work in the life of the believer is co-operative between Him and the believer.

    I hope this helps at least a little.

    Let’s also not forget prayer. As Christ intercedes for us, we can intercede on the behalf of others. I have seen the hand of God moved in response to intercessory prayer and watched Him miraculously break even the hardest of hearts and the blindest of eyes.

    God bless,

  220. watchful Mar 17th 2013

    Just think David, the Father is JUST and His judgments are RIGHTEOUS judgments, He is not coming with an attitude problem the way we think of anger and vengeance………that should help us to see sin from HIS point of view, which is much worse than we tend to see it, given the horrible judgments this world is reaping. A father loves His children, BUT if He loves them, He disciplines them……for REAL! IF they are legitimate children…….and they learn to RESPECT Him for it… Just think from HIS point of view the great difficulties, griefs and afflictions that we suffer in this life are just light and momentary troubles! We need to learn to take His point of view in all things, because His point of view is the only right one.

  221. David Markham Mar 17th 2013

    In his view, it’s not worse than we tend to see it. God knows we are human and our fraility. God is not surprised by what man does. He knew what man would do before the foundations of the world. He is not in shock by the sin and depravity of man. Was God ever disappointed in his son Jesus? No, when he looks at us, he sees the shed blood of his son. He sees the righteousness of Himself in Christ Jesus. We need to also see ourselves as God see us. As sons, not servants or slaves. We are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. We are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. God is not disappointed in us. God loves us unconditionaly!!! So I agree we need to look at things with God’s point of view, and that includes how he sees us his children.

  222. Serenity Mar 17th 2013

    ‘By their fruit you shall know them.’

    The fruit of this loose view of God’s grace is absolutely evil. Therefore, the doctrine of ‘almost anything goes’ must be wrong.

    Jesus warned that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we would not partake in His eternal kingdom. We, through the Holy Spirit, are to put to death the deeds of the flesh – NOT run after them.

    Jesus said, in effect, that the law of Moses set the bar of righteousness acceptable to God, THIS HIGH, but I (Jesus) say that God’s true standard of righteousness is really MUCH HIGHER.

    I fear that many of us are fooling ourselves that Jesus will accept into His eternal kingdom people clothed with filthy rags of unrepented-of sin. He won’t. Everywhere in Scripture He called for people to repent, be washed from their sins, and BY HIS GRACE, thru the Holy Spirit, to ‘sin no more’.

    Your true story, Averyl, reminded me that I was a guest at the wedding of a Christian couple years ago, of whom the wife has come out as a prostitute and a madam running such an establishment. Yet she still says she’s a born again Christian.

    Would YOU welcome such a person to dine in your home as a sister, (knowing that she departed from the truth years ago; she’s not a ‘seeker’) ?
    God said not to dine with someone who calls themselves a sister and lives in fornication.
    (1 Cor. 5 : 9 – 13.)
    Are we wiser than God and more merciful than Him ?

    He said, thru Peter, ‘if the righteous is scarcely saved, where then shall the ungodly and sinner appear ?’
    (1 Peter 5 : 18.)
    The Holy Spirit has been given to enable us to put to death the deeds of the flesh, to overcome, and please the Father.
    I fear that our perceived acceptable standards of righteousness will be found wanting on that Day.

  223. Serenity Mar 17th 2013

    Apologies to you, Averyl, if it looks as if I’m talking to you in the next paragraph. I wasn’t. I was addressing anyone who may be reading.

  224. Sandra G. Mar 17th 2013

    May all be blessed.
    First I would like to say “Amen” to Randall’s posts, he speaks truth from the word of God, and only from HIS word can one find truth.
    We have a lot of Theologians out there today, they have placed themselves upon pedestals, and think they know more than God, well I have news for yall, they don’t. Anytime the Bible is taken out of context, it demenishes the meaning of scripture, we are to rightly divide the word, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, but that doesn’t mean to change the meaning by putting our understanding in the words of God. The word of our Lord says what it means, and means what it says, no more, no less, in fact we are warned to not add, nor take from HIS word. There is a doctrine out there amongst the many, it is called OSAS, once saved, always saved, ’tis false, it is possible to fall away from grace, and yes God loves us all, but just because we have been given the gift of grace doesn’t mean we have a right to sin willfully, as Paul said, “God forbid”, we have to be mindful daily, for this flesh is weak, aren’t we told to pray daily that we will be counted worthy, if we were already perfect, then why would this be a necessity. Time is drawing ever nigh, the Lord will return to this earth once again, the first time HE came was as a lamb, this time HE will come as a lion,in flaming fire, and with vengeance, to destroy evil once and for all. Until that day we have HIS grace, and mercy, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in all things for HIS glory, and we have the blessed hope of HIS promise to return for us, and Jesus never breaks HIS word. As for me, I look forward to that day with joy in my heart, and a love for the Lord that will only grow as HIS day grows nearer.

    In HIS love,

  225. Lightning Storm Mar 17th 2013

    Yes, David, God’s LOVE IS unconditional. He LOVES ALL HIS CREATION.

    But the INHERITANCE that He has for HIS sons HAS CONDITIONS.

    Pay particular attention to what will be given to the OVERCOMERS.

    Rev 2:7 NASB
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

    Rev 2:11 NASB
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

    Rev 2:17 NASB
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

    Rev 2:26 NASB
    ‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

    Rev 3:5 NASB
    ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    Rev 3:12 NASB
    ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

    Rev 3:21 NASB
    ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    Rev 21:7 NASB
    “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

    There’s more to the Kingdom of God then just getting “in the door” my friend.

    Jesus was called “the door”…….what is a door?
    A door is THE ENTRANCE to “something” on the OTHER SIDE OF THE DOOR.

    That “something” on the other side of THE DOOR is NOT ONLY HEAVEN, but the Kingdom of God which Jesus said is here on earth now. (He said it is within us)

    We are to participate with the Holy Spirit in the THINGS of the KINGDOM. These are SPIRITUAL things, not religious “church” traditions.
    You will find the Apostles PRACTICING these THINGS of the Kingdom in the Book of Acts, UNDER THE AUTHORITY AND INSTRUCTIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

  226. Serenity Mar 17th 2013

    Someone made the point above that we don’t hear ‘grace preachers’ telling (eg) church youth to go out night-clubbing, or people to go shoplifting, or to open a house of ill-repute, etc. This is true.
    However, human nature being so corruptible, an OVERemphasis on God’s acceptance of us as we are, can lead unstable souls to live out whatever is in the old nature.
    And believe me, the old nature is not dead (yet). (Can’t believe someone on here believes we no longer have a sin nature.) Paul said ‘RECKON yourselves to be dead to sin’, (although that old sin nature still resides in you).
    He also counselled, ‘LET NOT sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey the lusts thereof : …’

    And, ‘if you live after the flesh, you shall die ; but if BY THE SPIRIT you put to death the doings of the body, YOU SHALL LIVE’.
    Romans chapters 3 to 8 have a whole lot to teach us on these matters.

    I know of churched youth and single people who are/were out clubbing late on Saturday nights and into Sunday mornings. Their different churches don’t advocate this, but they can’t stop them.
    What is the answer to this ?

    As a young believer I decided one night at a boozy party that I would never attend such gatherings again, and I never did, and I’ve never regretted it.

  227. fabakary Mar 17th 2013

    In fact the truth is Christ is the best and most excellent thing a man can have. He is the answer to to the pain , misery, of man. With him a suffering man, a man in pain can rejoice; He is the husband of the widow; the father of the fatherless; the bank account of the penniless;the solution to the rejected sinner; the comforter of the lonely and hopeless. The sum of it is the issue is not about warning, because it is for the best of our good now and for all eternity. The sinner that do not yet taste Christ may need warning. The believer that is walking in the valley of dead, may still need warning, because he is walking in a naked faith without any spiritual visitations, revelations etc.But not the one who at the present is in communion on the “mountain” with the living Christ. for example Heaven is in us , but no man that has visited heaven out of the body ever wanted to come back. They do not need to be warn , because they have get all they can ever need.The same is true with the one who is at present is in fellowship in a tangible way with the living Christ, he just cant think of a life without Christ. So what may serve as a manna for you now , may not be the same manner another man needs, but that does not also means he may never never need, he may need it in someday in the future. The sinner without Christ, do not know the pain of being without fellowship with Christ, he did not know about the valley of darkness because to him , all darkness is light but the believer that knows what fellowship with Christ mean will tell you, it is a great valley of darkness to walk without a tangible fellowship with Christ. The most dark day of the a saint life is when Christ seemed far away, as of a man on a long journey, not the day when he is seen to be indeed near , within . So the one that is in union, is satisfy with Christ

  228. Lightning Storm Mar 17th 2013

    Wow! Amen fabakary. What a wonderful insight.

  229. Serenity
    It looks like you added something to Paul”s quote that is not found in scripture.

    Quote: Paul said ‘RECKON yourselves to be dead to sin’, (although that old sin nature still resides in you).
    He also counselled, ‘LET NOT sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey the lusts thereof : …’ Quote

    Here is what Paul really said:
    Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    Paul tells us in Galatians;

    Galatians 2:20-21
    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    That is a man made doctrine that we retain the old sin nature. Can anyone give a chapter and verse that says we still our lugging around the old nature?

    We are new creatures in Christ. Made totally new at the cross by the blood of Jesus.

    Jesus made this clear when He said:
    Mark 2:21
    No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

    Ephesians 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    This teaching saying we have a sin nature after we have been born again cannot be found in scripture. Before salvation we had the sin nature but it has been abolished at the cross.

    You should know in your heart that you have been totally renewed and have no desire for sin. Is this not what some have stressed through coming to God’s Grace.

    I would love to see the scriptures in the mouth of two or three witnesses that testify that we still have a sin nature after salvation.

    This is a church doctrine promoted by men.


  230. watchful Mar 17th 2013

    Careful David M that you do not run up against His indignation………we should be careful of taking lightly what it cost Jesus and the Father DEARLY to save us from. If it were so small a matter it wouldn’t have cost so much!………and even then it still remains that WE are to count the cost, and fill up that which is behind of His sufferings! Comparing the sin and depravity of the fallen nature of man to the holiness and purity of God is as far as the east is from the west, brother, it just can’t get any worse than that.

    Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in HOLY FEAR built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

    David…………..it is NOW as it was in the days of Noah.

    I know where you are coming from, I was taught the same exact things, word for word just as you are saying it……but then in the mercy of God He caused me to lay down the things I had been taught and to read the bible for myself with virgin ears…..and I found out that what I had been hearing was the carnal reasonings of man, the gospel diluted with pop psychology….the broad way that leads to destruction. I found out that compared to what Jesus and the apostles taught, we have been taught cotton fluff and wishful thinking…it has no foundation.

  231. Hyper Grace produces liberty they tell us, but Peter tells us its the other way around, as those who practice hyper grace are brought into a greater bondage then before.

    2 Peter 2:18-20

    18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.

    19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

    20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


  232. watchful Mar 17th 2013

    Amen, Gary B.

  233. alphfaith Mar 17th 2013

    Relax people and take a deep breath. No one argues as hard as the person trying to convince himself of what he believes. Can you defend God? Does the government of the nations rest on your shoulders? Does the holiness of the Church come from your feeble efforts or His magnanimous work on the cross? It really is righteousness by faith that God is seeking from us. Not righteousness that can be weighed or measured or quantified based on fleshly observation, compliance or effort. Because of this many feel threatened concerning what they believe, whether it is good enough or not? And so do the Muslims and some of them fight and war and kill whoever and whatever does not fit into their religious box or who does not agree? Religion places demands while grace produces choice. Now the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. Whenever we feel pushed, forced, demanded, are given ultimatums and threatened – God is not behind it. The Spirit leads, He does not drive. He takes only those things springing forth out of Christ’s passion and delivers them to the Body of Christ. For all the promises of God are in Christ YES and in Him Amen… . The Church has many difficulties when it tries to employ the arm and eye of the flesh to manage its progress – God is patient. Are you? Few are. In much the same way as in Noah’s days on the ark. it was the safest place on earth for man, but also the smelliest. Wake up people God has everything under control and has made massive provisions for getting all those who have trusted in His Son – the Lord Christ – through to glory.
    Every praise be to His matchless Name and grace both now and forever!

  234. Barry Schmidt Mar 17th 2013

    The promises to those who overcome are there indeed. But no one overcomes by his own self effort, his own dedication or his own faithfulness. We overcome by trusting in Jesus Christ alone. He who overcame on Calvary overcomes overcomes again in us and through us .

    The person who doesn’t fully embrace grace as THE ONLY means by which we are made right with God, kept right with God and are enabled to please God and walk in His commands and statutes DOESN’T GRASP THIS BECAUSE HE IS STILL IN THE FLESH IN HIS THINKING AND REASONING.

    Paul said, ” I have to speak to you in HUMAN TERMS because you are weak in your ability to understand.” Rom 7
    Paul said to the Corintian church who were still trying to live the Christian life in their own understanding and strength rather than in the revelation and strength of Christ,
    “I had to speak to you as babes in Christ.”

    John said, ” The Law came TRHOUGH Moses (living by self effort BEHAVIOR and performance) BUT GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.” Jn 1

    The ability to grasp divine TRUTH only comes AFTER ONE HAS EMBRACED DIVINE GRACE. Grace ALWAYS come BEFORE TRUTH in Christ Jesus.

    The reason THOSE OF US ON THIS SITE who have received the revelation of divine grace and have fully embraced it CANNOT GET THROUGH TO to those who have not IS BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL OPERATING UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES. There is very little spiritual insight to those who are still UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.

    My grace friends you can explain and defend and argue the GRACE you have come to know and trust UNTIL YOU ARE BLUE IN THE FACE . A legalist will NEVER SUBMIT TO GODS GRACE. That cannot grasp what you are saying because they are STILL IN THE FLESH. If they are saved- and I suspect many of them merely know religious flesh and are not yet saved- but if they are saved and are still trying to secure the FAVOR and blessing of God by self effort THEY ARE YET BABES IN CHRIST AND WEAK IN THEIR NATURAL SELVES and cannot grasp or accept what us “grace” people are trying to say.

    Wasn’t this the way it was in the New Testament- The Jews arguing and being pig headed refusing to accept Jesus message of grace? Wasn’t it this way with Stephen arguing grace to those who eventually stoned him and accused him of speaking against Gods law? Wasn’t it this way with Paul and the legalists all through his ministry.

    The same warning applies to those on this site who are being stubborn and obstinate AGAINST THE MESSAGE OF GODS GRACE:

    Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying, ‘G o to this people and say, “Y ou will keep on hearing, but will not understand; A nd you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; F or the heart of this people has become dull, A nd with their ears they scarcely hear, A nd they have closed their eyes; O therwise they might see with their eyes, A nd hear with their ears, A nd understand with their heart and return, A nd I would heal them.”‘ (Acts 28:24-27 NASB)

    I am finished on this article trying to convince blind religious flesh to trust entirely in the grace of God alone!!!!

  235. alphfaith Mar 17th 2013


    I have found it takes a major brick wall in life to bring legalist out of their self-willed, self-centered and self-righteous ways. It is how we come to the end of ourselves. Stay encouraged.

    grace and peace my Brother!

  236. Barry, Amen to all of what you said.

  237. Alphfaith, Amen

  238. 1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

  239. March 17
    NO LONGER UNDER OBLIGATION – Today’s Neil Anderson Devotional (Freedom In Christ Ministries)
    Romans 6:6
    Our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin
    Why did the old self need to die? The old self was independent and disobedient to God, so it had to die in order that “our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin” (Romans 6:6). Death is the ending of a relationship, but not of existence. Sin hasn’t died; it is still strong and appealing. But when your old self died with Christ on the cross, your relationship with sin ended forever. You are no longer “in the flesh” but “in Christ” (Romans 8:9). Your old self (the sinner) and your old nature (characterized by the sin which was inevitable since you were separated from God) are gone forever because you are no longer separated from God.
    Does this mean that you are now sinless? By no means. The death of your old self formally ended your relationship with sin, but it did not end sin’s existence. Sin and Satan are still around, and they are strong and appealing. But by virtue of the crucifixion of the old self, sin’s power over you is broken (Romans 6:7, 12, 14). You are no longer under any obligation to serve sin, to obey sin, or to respond to sin.
    You commit sin when you willfully allow yourself to act independently of God as the old self did as a matter of course. When you function in this manner you are violating your new nature and your new identity. Such actions must be confessed and forsaken.
    Even though the old self, which you were in Adam, is dead, you still have to contend with the flesh. The way you learned to live your life before Christ is still programmed into your mind. Knowing that your old self was crucified with Christ makes it possible for you to choose not to sin. You no longer have to walk after the flesh; you may now walk after the Spirit. You are free.
    Prayer: Father, help me overcome the fleshly ways I followed before coming to You. I choose today to be tuned in to Your Spirit.

  240. Allen, good Devotional

    The way you learned to live your life before Christ, is still programmed into your mind.

    This scripture came to mind –

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  241. alphfaith Mar 17th 2013


    Such joy and such peace in the message you shared. I have a position in Christ and it is without spot, wrinkle or blemish. But also I have a condition in this mortal body that will never be able to apprehend that which it has been apprehended for, which is sentenced to die and it will! In the mean time through obedience to faith God gets to use it for His glory. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
    It is my prayer that each of us do something so very bad as Christians that there is no way we will ever again be remotely be able to glory in self-righteousness, but in true humility fall on nothing less than HIS righteousness. It is safe there.
    As a minister I can do nothing more than meet people where they are and encourage not discourage them. It is the Spirit shedding abroad the love of Christ and I like it!

    Barry, Ken1, David Markam and Allen you are a very very sweet smelling aroma being defused to those on this sight and everywhere you go and God is pleased.
    I bless you all in the name of the Most High Father and His glorious Son Jesus Christ.

  242. Barry Schmidt Mar 17th 2013

    one more kick at the can:
    10. The Purpose of Understanding Grace:
    The purpose of God giving us an understanding of His grace is so that we might praise and glorify Him.

    9. Perpetual Righteousness By Grace
    Those who place their confidence in Jesus’ death are kept perpetually right with God as a gift by His grace apart from their behavior or their performance.

    8. Living for God by Grace
    God’s grace causes His people to live the lifestyle he desires for them so that they never have to rely upon their own will power, motivation or self effort to do His will and please Him everyday.

    7. Jesus Himself Is Our All sufficient Divine Grace
    God has created us in such a way that we can be completely satiated and filled in the midst of our human need simply through the knowledge that Jesus Himself is our life and is Himself our all sufficient divine grace.

    6. Grace Comes to the Humble of Heart.
    God gives unlimited grace to those who have the restful sense of entire nothingness in themselves along with the joyful sense that God in Christ is their all.

    5. The Spirit of Grace is given to those who ask daily.
    The Holy Spirit is the Trinity’s Agent of delivering God’s grace and He is given to us to accomplish God’s will in us in answer to daily prayer.

    4. Grace To Serve Others- SUPERNATURALLY!
    God’s grace enables His people to serve others with supernatural endowments in His way, in His timing and for His glory and purposes alone.

    3. Obedience is by grace alone.
    Biblical obedience is God’s activity of grace in us which results in God’s actions through

    2. Grace Extends the Kingdom of God.
    God’s supernatural endowments of grace are for the manifestation and extension of His kingdom within the personal lives of His people.

    1. The Purpose of Grace:
    The purpose of God giving us an understanding of His grace is so that we might praise and glorify Him.

  243. The slave had no will, just debt, while the bondservant has no debt, just will.

    Article excerpt: What is a Bondservant?

    Exodus 21:5-6

    James starts off in James 1:1 saying:
    “James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…”

    The Term Bondservant here comes from the word dulos. And is defined as:
    a slave, bondman, man of servile condition
    a slave
    metaph., one who gives himself up to another’s will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men
    devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests
    a servant, attendant
    The best definition here is “devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests.” On its basic level a bondservant is simply following your master to complete disregard of your own will, emotions, desires.
    To put it into contrast of being a Bondservant of Christ, it means a complete and utter devotion to God, His word, and His will. It is disregarding your own desires and will in all things to lay your life at the Cross and follow Christ. It is not being perfect, yet it is a dedication to following God in all things.

    (The debt is paid in full, while a love and devotion to the debtor has replaced it.) He now serves and obeys in love rather than in indebtedness.

  244. Alphfaith, bless you to.

    Maybe you would like to listen to the audio below, they were recorded by my friend Elizabeth Haworth (UK) but first written by Miles Stanford –

    I suggest # 3 Acceptance (approx 13 mins)


  245. Amen again Barry

  246. Barry wrote: 9. Perpetual Righteousness By Grace
    Those who place their confidence in Jesus’ death are kept perpetually right with God as a gift by His grace apart from their behavior or their performance.

    I don’t understand what you mean by this statement.

    Are you saying behavior does not matter?

    Secondly: 8. Living for God by Grace
    God’s grace causes His people to live the lifestyle he desires for them so that they never have to rely upon their own will power, motivation or self effort to do His will and please Him everyday. quote

    Are you saying here we do not have to do anything at all each day? What about God’s permissive will versus His perfect will mentioned in scriptures?

    I don’t quite understand your statements. It sounds like your saying Grace means once your saved then your always saved.


  247. miss bridgewater Mar 17th 2013

    Yes, once saved always saved is the good news. His rightousness counts for ours, and when you actualaly get it right and have understanding that everytime you mess up, our weakness is his strength, you sin less and less and less, in fact enjoy giving sin up. Pentecostals have a hard time with this, as they still somehow have works built into their theology, a salvation with holes in it. They added to the scriptures with the 2nd work which is nothing more then the refinement that comes with your walk with him, NOT some spirit take over that manifests the flesh some sort of way via tongues, shaking, rocking and rolling,and all the rest of the show their spirit seems to change from time to time. You have ALL you need at the first.

  248. miss bridgewater Mar 17th 2013

    Proof again, they left the door wide open for the enemy to enter, and inviting the devil right on into them.
    Is The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit Required For Salvation?

    Q. In regards to Is Satan A Christian? a question from a little boy, it would do well for all to know that just believing in Jesus alone is not enough to be resurrected to life. We must have the spirit of God indwelling us. We must be baptized into His Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit revealing truth to us all we have is a historical Jesus.

    A. Believing there was a Jesus is what gives you the historical Jesus. Believing in Jesus is what saves you. It means you believe you’re a sinner in need of a Savior, and that Jesus died to save you and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). John 3:16 says everyone who believes in the Son will not perish but have eternal life. John 6:28-29 tells us belief in the Son is the only work God requires of us. John 6:40 says everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life and will be resurrected. Ephesians 1:13-14 says having believed, the seal of the Holy Spirit was given us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. 2 Cor.1:21-22 confirms this, adding that God has put His Spirit into the hearts of all believers. None of these passages state that being baptized into the Holy Spirit is also needed.

    Some parts of the church practice a second baptism, called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They say this second baptism is required to receive spiritual gifts, specifically a prayer language, which they call speaking in tongues. A few even say that manifestation of this prayer language is the only approved confirmation that the baptism of the Holy Spirit has taken place, and without it a person’s very salvation may be uncertain.

    But in his definitive teaching on Spiritual gifts (1 cor. 12-14), Paul never mentioned the need for a second baptism to receive them. He said the Holy Spirit gives these gifts to each believer as He determines for the good of the body

  249. miss bridgewater Mar 17th 2013

    BARRY, oh barry you have it SPOT ON. thanks for sharing the GOOD NEWS!

  250. Miss Bridgewater

    What about those who depart from the faith giving heed to doctrines of demons. They were in the faith and then departed.
    I Tim 4:1

    If there is any eternal security it is to the elect of God and if this is what Barry is refering to I agree.

    The difference in scripture is that some are mere christians while there is the “elect of God” who persevere to the end.


  251. Barry Schmidt Mar 17th 2013

    Gary B- the only reason you do not understand or know what I am saying is because you DO NOT TRUST JESUS TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU.

    Repent my brother ( change your mind from trusting yourself to trusting gods grace) and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL and you too will enjoy the fullness of this grace.

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (John 3:10-12 NASB)

  252. Roger (NZ) Mar 17th 2013

    Jesus was, and is, a Jew – as were His disciples, much of His teaching was given to those who were Jews, so they understood when He taught, referring to those customs and culture. Today, we in the western world have (basically) a greek mindset, which is different to the Jewish mindset, and the barbarian mindset.

    To clarify these mindsets:
    Barbarian – make war and conquer those who are weak, oppress them, and win by intimidation and fear. (Satan uses this method, to steal, kill and destroy.)

    Greek – get more education, knowledge is power, study theology and doctrine, so you can reason with human intellect. (This is the world of today, and much of religious church.)

    Hebrew – we may not understand God, but we will love, worship and obey Him, learn to walk in His favour, trust God. (This is the mind that has been transformed by God.

    Although Constantine combined all three of the above mindsets, God is restoring the Hebrew mindset in those who are born-again, who are the disciples of Lord Jesus.

    – We are not to walk in fear, but in faith.
    – We are not to walk in pride (self), but trust in Him.

    So, we are to walk in the Holy Spirit, be led by the Spirit, and this same Spirit will gradually change/restore/recreate our mindset from Barbarian and Greek, to Hebrew – this is the mind of Christ Jesus, this is the mind of God.

  253. Roger (NZ) Mar 17th 2013

    Ken1, you said, and I Agree:

    Allen, good Devotional

    The way you learned to live your life before Christ, is still programmed into your mind.

    This scripture came to mind –
    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  254. Thanks Barry, Your a chip off the old block. LOL

  255. alphfaith Mar 17th 2013

    Before we begin to talk about departing from the faith as though you have some great revelation concerning it, we need to know what The Faith is. Allow me to enlighten you. The “faith” is to have heard the gospel coming from a preacher who has been sent proclaiming Christ to be the only means of salvation from both the penalty and power of sin.
    As I have read through the posts here, those who are preaching law-based, performance-based living as being acceptable to God are the one’s making Christ of non-effect and who have fallen from grace or shall we say departing from the “faith” that was once delivered unto the Saints”.
    1. Faith is God speaking – “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” “How did you receive the Spirit, was it by the hearing of faith or by the works of the law”?
    2. Faith is obedience – “the same gospel which was preached to us was also preached to them (children of Israel), but not being mixed with faith (obedience) in those who heard, profited them nothing.
    3. Lastly, faith is substance and evidence of what is hoped for currently unseen.
    When God through the Holy Spirit speaks a word of initiative (unction) to us and we obey it explicitly as He says, a transfered manifestation from heaven occurs. Its the same formula as in salvation. We hear the (right now) word that God is speaking and obey the invitation to come and confess and receive. Then the Holy Spirit comes in and seals us eternally with the gift of life. We are reborn in the Spirit.
    Departing from THE FAITH is departing from dependence on Christ and turning a deaf ear to the urgings of the Spirit. This happens when pride enters in and obedience to the Spirit takes a back seat.
    Every Spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh is not of God.
    This is exactly what those who attempt to say the Spirit of God has or will do to those who are not living right. Satan has no greater weapon of torment against the children of God than to both accuse them of sin and failure and imply that God has abandoned them – or might.
    Some shall depart from the faith – not the Spirit will depart from some. You might be in greater league with seducing spirits than those whom you judge unworthy because of fleshly choices my friend.
    I know of what I speak. The Holy Spirit is here explicitly to speak fresh words to us in every situation. When we rebel and do not hear, He sends a physical agent (Christian) who can spell it out for them plainly. If this does not work, he allows the pressures of sin and corruption to erode away at their self confidence until they at last surrender all.
    All things (sin, sickness, poverty and death) work together for the good of those who love God and who are the called according to His purpose.

  256. Andrew Mar 17th 2013

    And then there are those who FULLY preach Repentance and Holiness.

    Along with FULLY preaching Grace and Faith.

    AND the walk of the Holy Spirit.

    Which is what has been advocated in this thread from the start.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  257. Roger (NZ) 🙂

  258. Again Amen, Alphfaith

  259. alphfaith Mar 17th 2013

    When Jesus was baptized of John, was He doing it as an example to us? Nay! Baptism always represents repentance. Repentance means to do an about face or a 180 degree turn from where you are currently. And so He went down into Jordan as the Son of God and came up the Son of man. The first thing Satan tempted Him to do was to act as God. “If you be the Son of God, command these stones to be made bread.” Jesus answered and said, “It is written, MAN shall not live by bread only, but by every word that procedes from the mouth of God.”
    When we were/are baptized, we go down a son of man and come up a son of God and the thing Satan temps us to do is act as the sons of men instead of as the sons of God.
    This happens when we attempt to live through the old crucified nature as though there is something there worthy of offering to God. Trying to bring something out of the flesh is direct rebellion and contempt to the finished work of Christ. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Samuel said; (Is that oxen I hear? Did not the Lord say destroy all of it. Obedience is better than sacrifice. Rebellion as the sin of witchcraft.)
    There is nothing worth salvaging in the flesh. Nothing. Of course for a couple hundred dollars Tony Robinson can tell you how to self-help, self-improve your flesh, which is equal to performance based teaching and living. Giving your best to God is absolute rebellion to Him. There is no best in the flesh. It was sentenced to death period.

    Gal 2:20-21 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” NKJV

  260. Lightning Storm Mar 17th 2013

    Preach it…Allen, Barry, and Miss Bridgewater!

    It is the PRESENCE OF GOD that will set you free from darkness, carnality, self, the bondage of sin.

    It is the PRESENCE OF GOD that brings HIS Life into us and to COMPLETION.

    It is the PRESENCE OF GOD that ENABLES us to OVERCOME sin, the devil, and the world JUST LIKE JESUS.

    It is the PRESENCE OF GOD that makes us SUPERIOR to the FIRST ADAM and conformed to the LAST ADAM.

    If you’re not walking by the Holy Spirit as Galatians and Romans teaches, then you’re NOT in the PRESENCE OF GOD.

  261. Repentance, Holiness, Preaching, Grace, Faith, all spoken in love exhorting us to good works and unity in Christ. In this He is glorified.

  262. Lightning Storm Mar 17th 2013

    GaryB asks these questions:
    “Are you saying here we do not have to do anything at all each day? What about God’s permissive will versus His perfect will mentioned in scriptures?”

    Permissive Will is not in the bible.

    Permissive Will is “you choose to go your own way”

    Choosing to go your own way is NOT THE WILL OF GOD AT ALL.
    Choosing your own way is REBELLION. The Israelites were enslaved and/or killed by enemies EVERY TIME they chose to go their own way.

    Did God change in the NT? NO

    Do we do nothing? you ask.

    There are several things the scriptures tell us to “do”:

    BELIEVE GOD. (different than “believing IN God”)
    TRUST (put your faith in) God’s WHOLE NATURE. (not just parts of His Nature)
    SUBMIT ALL of you and your life to God’s Will.

    Absolute Surrender is the definition of HUMBLE YOURSELF BEFORE THE LORD.


    Basically, surrendering YOUR LIFE.

    Am I a robot? Am I a puppet? NO, I can REBEL against the WILL OF GOD anytime.


  263. Lightning Storm Mar 17th 2013

    Why should I go my own way at any time during my life?

    THAT IS what people are doing BEFORE they are born again! Going their own way….

    When we are born again we ACCEPT that Jesus becomes our Lord AND King.

    Lord in the NT means MASTER. (refer to the parables about the Master and His servants)

    King means HE RULES! Period.

    People are RULED no matter which Kingdom they belong to.
    Satan rules over you when you are a citizen of the Kingdom of Darkness/World.

    I prefer being RULED by a Loving, Good, and Powerful MASTER …..rather than a Master who keeps me enslaved to the sins that destroy either me or others.

  264. Lightning storm
    1 Timothy 4

    4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    To depart from the faith you in the latter times you have to be in the faith or else how can you depart


  265. Lightning Storm
    One more thing I was just trying to understand what was written as I did not quite understand what some were saying in their comments.

    I’m not super intelligent like some here. So sometimes I have to ask dumb and simple questions to get the full meaning of what is being said.

    Sometimes when you ask simple questions you get fruit thrown at you, but I think they are doing it in love.

    Hebrews 12:1
    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with “patience” the race that is set before us,


  266. watchful Mar 17th 2013

    Well, I guess I am waking up……I did receive Grace and now I am a debtor to it, to offer my members as slaves to righteousness.

    Isaiah 65:1 “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’

    Forgive me Lord for taking your salvation for granted.

  267. watchful Mar 17th 2013

    “Sometimes when you ask simple questions you get fruit thrown at you, but I think they are doing it in love.”


  268. Roger (NZ) Mar 17th 2013

    GaryB – the good news is when the fruit isn’t ‘stone’ fruit.. 🙂

    The other good news is that God placed the ‘bread of life’ (Lord Jesus) on the lowest shelf so that all may reach up and receive..

    In His love,

  269. Thanks Roger(NZ) and watchful,

    Our church ended up in legalism in the end before it fail apart. I have been sorting through a lot of things trying to get the mind of the Lord for my life.

    There are many good comments here that have been a great help and encouragement.

    I think we can all learn from each other if we listen to the Lord in it all when it lines up with God’s word.

    As for the bread being on the lowest shelf, I am glad for that.

    I appreciate the many here who manifest Christ through what they share.


  270. Barry Schmidt Mar 17th 2013

    Gary B-I sincerely apologize if I offended you or if I embarrassed you in any way.

    If I seemed to pick on you personally my comments were more directed toward those who think like you in general. People who seem willing and able to call others to account for their comments and seem to want others to change their minds and align with their thinking. People who say that they are not that smart yet seem smart enough to argue and question even the most basic and simple biblical truths presented to them. People who are offended when they are asked to repent and when someone calls them on their unwillingness to believe Gods clearly revealed simple gospel truth regarding grace? People who don’t have an understanding problem but who have a problem BELIEVING WHAT THEY KNOW GOD IS CLEARLY SAYING TO THEM ABOUT HIS GRACE and yet are unwilling to humble themselves and receive His grace being freely offered to them.

    So I apologize for singling you our for all that in my response to your sincere questions.

    In answer to your questions I simply encourage you to take each one of those ten reasons for rejecting self effort with trusting Gods grace – I encourage you to read each one of those ten reasons before The Lord and prayerfully ask this question:
    “Am I trusting Jesus grace to produce this in me or am I still trusting myself to produce this in my life.”

    The goal God has for your sanctification is that you choose to trust God to do in and through your life each one of those ten things. My desire is for you to be delivered from the yoke of self effort religion and to come into the joy and peace and rest of trusting Christ Jesus to produce all these things in you – effortlessly and spontaneously.
    Bless you and thanks for your forgiveness !

  271. Barry Schmidt Mar 17th 2013

    I also sincerely apologize to anyone else on this site who i have offended especially those who are sincerely grappling with the role of Gods glorious grace in their own lives . I am a work in progress and grace still needs to find its way into my fleshly impatience. Please forgive me for any lack of graciousness in my efforts to spread the message of grace.

  272. jorgedelaselva Mar 17th 2013

    The Lord told Adam in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam did not die physically. He did however die spiritually the moment he sinned, the sin nature infected man. Death is God’s answer to sin. It took almost one thousand years before that body of Adam died and received its death penalty.

    If my spirit has been made alive again though a 180% change that has been entirely directed by God’s reach and my acceptance (it has to be directed by God, my dead spirit will never reach out to Him)(this is why evangelism is critical, God has given us the ministry of reaching unbelievers) then I become born again.

    The soul of a man (the mind, will, and emotions)(also the conscience where I connect with God) is where the battle is being fought, the race is being run. If I am born again, the soul is where I can choose to die daily / work out my salvation, That is where the wonderful paradox is played out everyday of choosing to die to self in order that my soul may experience the true life that is flowing like a river out of my already renewed spirit(heart).

    If I do not diligently run my soul can take the ‘charis’ (grace) of freedom that I have been given and my mind, will, or emotions can reason away sins that I commit as not significant. My conscience which is designed to bring sin to my attention can become weak or dull.

    A major overcoming situation may occur in the weak believers life, perhaps the loss of a child, ( I’ve been there, wow, this is where the Hebrew mindset of God is necessary) And the one who has the promise that nothing can snatch them out of their Father’s hand, may do the one thing that will violate that promise. They may themselves willingly divorce themselves from their Husband. Is that losing salvation, I don’t know, there is a Hosea in the Bible. (I certainly would not criticize anyone one on either side of that issue, I would only criticize those who pridefully, adamantly, insist that what brother scholars don’t agree on is determined by their private interpretation.)

    So does too much ‘charis’ bring about a soul’s descent into the hog pit? The lost son would not been in the hog pit if he would not have had his Father’s gracious inheritance. But he could have been experiencing smaller amounts of daily charis as his older brother did and he still could have been full of jealousy and works consciousness as his brother was.

    Both of the sons had an enduring relationship with the Father. Whether one had a small amount of grace or large amount of grace is immaterial to whether or not they had abundant life. Abundant life in the soul is accomplished by keeping a healthy and clear conscience that is diligent to lay aside every weight and besetting sin. Yes you can call that an extra work if you want to. I call it a necessity in order to let the abundant life in my spirit man flow through my soul where I have been told to WORK!!!!! out my salvation.

  273. jorgedelaselva Mar 17th 2013

    Pr. 28.13 Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,

    but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

  274. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    Barry – may you be blessed in your continued walk with, Christ Jesus our risen Lord.
    “…those who are sincerely grappling with the role of Gods glorious grace in their own lives . I am a work in progress and grace still needs to find its way into my fleshly impatience…”

    We are all in this place, vessels in the process of being cleansed by Almighty God 🙂

  275. I’ve been blessed by your comments Barry, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  276. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    Roger (NZ) I do so appreciate your words pertaining to the Hebrew mindset – I had to copy and paste – I do so desire that mind.
    Thanks, George

  277. watchful Mar 18th 2013

    Gary and Roger, I was just going to say………as long as nobody starts throwing watermelons! (or maybe they aren’t technically a fruit for all I know) Okay, I guess recess is over now…. 🙂

    Amen to learning from each other, to the lowest shelf, and to dependance on the Holy Spirit….

    Barry I dont see people saying it has to do with self-effort, although myself I think it could be said that it does have to do with our willingness..? Misunderstandings arise easily having to do with the limitations and nature of internet communication, as someone has mentioned….and I had noticed there seems to be a lot of dispute with what hasn’t been said, it seems to happen a lot, unless I am even misunderstanding that! Grace and peace to you and to everyone here.

  278. I’d like to share again a very liberating truth and the “flipside” of which gives balance and perspective on the issue of “new self” versus “sin within me”…

    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    (1 John 3:9 KJV)

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
    (1 John 5:18 NASB)

    and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
    (Ephesians 4:24 NASB)

    The word translated “practices” in the NASB translation of 1 John 3:9 (http://interlinearbible.org/1_john/3-9.htm) is poiei – 4160 in Strongs (http://biblesuite.com/greek/4160.htm)…

    It means to make or do

    The literal meaning of that verse is, “No one who is born of God does or makes sin…

    It does not mean, “No one who is born of God “practices” (like habitually does it all the time) sin but might commit the occasional sin” but actually means that no one who is born of God sins at all, i.e. the person (the new creation) who has been born of God cannot sin…

    It is a parallel passage to 1 John 5:18…

    This is very encouraging… 🙂

    Ephesians 4:24 gives the explanation of why…

    The new self was created in holiness and righteousness of the truth…

    The Holy Spirit comes and lives in the new self – thus the new self must be holy and righteous…

    Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
    (Ezekiel 36:26 NASB)

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    (John 3:3 NASB)

    And it also must also be “untaintable”…

    Which is exactly what 1 John 3:9 & 1 John 5:18 are saying…

    1 John 1:9 is speaking of the deeds of “sin within me” (which we confess and get forgiven for) …

    So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    (Romans 7:17 NASB)

    When the Holy Spirit convicts us of these sins, as He convicts us, we repent and are practically cleansed by His Blood – the Blood of Jesus – for these sins in a similar way to Jesus saying that He needed to wash Peter’s feet although Peter was already completely clean (the Blood has cleansed us and is cleansing us)…

    Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
    (John 13:10 NASB)

    As the Holy Spirit reveals “sin within me” I repent from this practically and it “drops off”…

    This on going process of confession/repentance/turning away from sin/renunciation has nothing to do with my assurance of salvation (from a “legal” perspective)…

    This has to do with my response to the revelation of truth to my innermost being (a love and submission response based upon my acceptance through the Blood with the Lord)…

    As I see what sin is in any particular area – as that revelation dawns – I hate it (experience Godly sorrow) and repent from it…

    This is the true meaning and understanding of “new self” versus “sin within me” (Paul was willing to call himself “the chief of sinners” – when he said this he was referring to “sin within him” not his “new self”)…

    The Gnostics twisted this truth to try and say that it didn’t matter what they did in the body (that God didn’t notice it or care) – this is a lie…

    The enemy comes in to try and twist the truth (He trys to rob it of its power)…

    He hates the truth…

    Thus when we see a contest going on over an understanding – a revelation – of the truth – we need to know that there is truth there that the enemy is trying to “nullify” or twist or pour dirt over…

    The Lord hates sin with a passion and will absolutely show us our sin (sin within me) while at the same time being able to accept me as I am in my new self (under His Blood) so that the two processes are not mutually exclusive but “both and” at the same time… 🙂

    Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
    (Revelation 3:19 NASB)

    This scripture is spoken to those of us who believe (have a new self) but still have the remains of “sin within me” in our lives – this is what the Lord has committed Himself to remove from the lives of each who know Him…

    For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
    (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NASB)

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
    (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,


  279. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    I have just recently found that the Love chapter is an excellent tool for me in being honest with myself. 2 Corinthians 13 tells me to examine myself and 1 Corinthians 13 has 14 attributes to measure up to.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Search me, God, and know my heart;
    test me and know my anxious thoughts.
    See if there is any offensive way in me,
    and lead me in the way everlasting.

  280. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    Search ME, God, and know MY heart; (not my neighbors heart)
    test ME and know MY anxious thoughts.(the Spirit will deal w/you)
    See if there is any offensive way in ME, (not my wife, that’s me)
    and lead ME in the way everlasting.

  281. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    Amen George.. 🙂

    Smetimes I need a chainsaw to sort out the log in MY eye..

  282. I have been mightily blessed by all these posts, Glory. And forming the right words for clarity is an extra plus. You see, I always felt I could ‘help’ God along. “I’ll take care of this God, You need not take any time on this situaltion, I can handle it.” Flesh. But I didn’t. I’d flub, make it worse. Not until I got the message, oh that was a long-long time of learning. did it ALL change. I wanted to keep a ‘little’ of self to control. Wrong. God can’t do a thing without your approval. Now I am seeing the things He wants me to see about His Grace, Love, Trust, Faith, etc., as its all coming together in His Word. I gave Me away as ‘defective’ Of no utter use. It was not ‘what I could do for Him. It became what He could do for me. Amazing. Thank each of you. What a blessing you are.

  283. Andrew J H – As I see what sin is in any particular area – as that revelation dawns – I hate it (experience Godly sorrow) and repent from it…
    Concise and simple instruction. We would all do well to emulate.

    jorgedelaselva – I have just recently found that the Love chapter is an excellent tool for me in being honest with myself. 2 Corinthians 13 tells me to examine myself and 1 Corinthians 13 has 14 attributes to measure up to.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Search me, God, and know my heart;
    test me and know my anxious thoughts.
    See if there is any offensive way in me,
    and lead me in the way everlasting.

    Search ME, God, and know MY heart; (not my neighbors heart)
    test ME and know MY anxious thoughts.(the Spirit will deal w/you)
    See if there is any offensive way in ME, (not my wife, that’s me)
    and lead ME in the way everlasting.

    Jesus said, “What is that to thee? follow thou me.” (John 21:22)
    Thankyou for this Spirit checklist. The bar is always love.

    Roger (NZ) chainsaw

    😀 we will all need to borrow it from you!
    God, thankyou for The Saints!

  284. Serenity Mar 18th 2013

    “Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin…”
    (Part of Romans 6:11.)

    ‘Reckon’ meaning ‘to consider as ; regard as being’ – according to my dictionary.
    Which, logically, must mean that we, on Earth, are not yet completely dead to sin, (or we would not be called to ‘consider ourselves’ as being 100% dead to sin).

    The holy angels, having passed the test of their probation, are not subject to earthly temptations and probably not to any other.
    WE are still ‘on probation’. Even though we are ‘in Christ’, by God’s grace, there is still a narrow way to walk on to Glory.

    Thank you for your comments, GaryB. I agree with lots you had to say. Through your words it has become clear to me that ‘reckoning’ is a big part of why so many professing believers are deviating from ‘sanctification, without which NO-ONE shall see the Lord’. (Heb.12:14.)

    Too many are reckoning that as believers they are totally acceptable to God and unable to commit sin. They reckon that their sin nature is dead. They reckon wrongly.

    It’s the old positional vs experiential. Positionally, I am seated with Christ in heavenly places and accepted in the Beloved. Experientially, there is still a lot of overcoming to be done.

    Of course, I would not add to to God’s Word. Jesus Himself quoted part of a verse on different occasions.
    I put single quotation marks to differentiate God’s Words from mine.

    Hebrews 12 : 4 tells us ‘ you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin : …’
    The whole passage is about enduring the hard stuff that we may become ‘partakers of His holiness’. (v.10.)
    Jesus agonized with great drops of sweat pouring from His flesh as He contemplated carrying the weight of our sin.
    ‘Shall Jesus bear the Cross alone and all the church go free ?
    No ! There’s a cross for everyone, including you and me.’
    God bless you all who are in Christ.

  285. chas351 Mar 18th 2013

    “NORMAL is SIN”

    >watch this before replying>


  286. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    For me it seems to work best to reckon the sin nature as dead in my spirit man. Undoubtedly there is still a war/race going on in my soul and I do slip on occasion, ok, more often. Let me illustrate why this is helpful, it revolves around GUILT and SHAME.

    Let’s say I was a whoremonger before Christ. After salvation I am not a whoremonger in my spirit man I reckon it dead. (which by the way is an accounting term that means you can bank on it!!)

    Now, if I slip in the area of lust, I am GUILTY of sin, however I have received grace in my spirit man and I will not receive the SHAME of the enemy or myself that says I am a whoremonger again. The verb tense is now crucial!!!

    Mix in John13 and this is how it goes. I was a whoremonger, but I took a bath and now I am pure. I admit that I lusted, I sinned, I got my feet dirty as I was traveling, please forgive me, Lord.

    I admit guilt, without receiving condemnation (shame). Thank God for His Blood, that is my kind of hyper-grace. Blessings

  287. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    3049 logízomai (the root of the English terms “logic, logical”) – properly, compute, “take into account”; reckon (come to a “bottom-line”), i.e. reason to a logical conclusion (decision).

  288. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    EXCELLENT explanation, Serenity!

    Very good, Very good word of truth.

  289. Serenity Mar 18th 2013


    Right-on brother. I’ve watched the whole thing. AMEN !!!

    Yes, Normal is Sin. Now where do you envision us going from here ? (He has already given me some clues.)

  290. ANDREW J. HORTON: You said, in reference to 1 John 3:9:
    “The literal meaning of that verse is, “No one who is born of God does or makes sin…

    “It does not mean, “No one who is born of God “practices” (like habitually does it all the time) sin but might commit the occasional sin” but actually means that no one who is born of God sins at all, i.e. the person (the new creation) who has been born of God cannot sin…”

    You then go on to quote from a Greek lexicon (Strong’s) intended to be a basic aid to those uneducated in Koine/NT Greek/Hebrew.

    You have made an error common to all those who think a simple referencing to such a basic aid gives them the right to transform themselves into Greek scholars and translators.

    In doing so, you have perpetrated a false and inaccurate interpretation of this passage. Without appealing to the Greek, your erroneous conclusion “that no one born of God sins at all,” is in conflict with other Scripture – even that from the same book – 1 John. In chapter 1, verses 8 – 10, which state, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” If one born of God does not sin, why does John also warn against saying that such ones have no sin? Why would such ones need to confess their sin? Chapter 3 was written to the same group of believers as chapter 1, so why do you create a dichotomy and contradiction between these passages????

    Additionally, your lack of study and knowledge of Greek is evident from your erroneous translation and conclusion. You may have helped yourself in this respect if you had read ALL the posts to this article. I realize there are many posts here and not everyone may have had the time, interest, or diligence to do so (although, I have to wonder why, if you’ve had the time to make so many posts here, you haven’t taken time to read the other posts). So, I will repost part of an earlier post I put here dealing with the Greek.in this passage:

    “DAVID MARKHAM – You asked to hear our comments on 1 John 3:9.

    “Along with you, my brother, I struggled over this passage for years – until I studied Greek and discovered what was actually being said in 1 John 3:9 vs 1 John 1:8, 9.

    “1 John 1:8, 9 make it clear that all who are born again by God’s Spirit will sin. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightesouness.”

    “1 John 3:9, however, seems to contradict this as it is poorly translated in a number of translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV et al.): “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.”

    “The Greek word translated “does” is a common Greek word [poieo] which is used extensively in the NT and has numerous meanings depending on the context.

    “In the context of 1 John 3:9 it means “to practice habitually.” In classical Greek it was often used to describe what a craftsman did – i.e. it was his life’s work and focus. To apply this meaning to 1 John 3:9: “The one who is born of God cannot habitually practice sin . . .”

    “The Amplified Bible better translates this concept than many others: “No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.”

    “Many translations which only tranlate “poieo” as “does” in 1 John 3:9, actually correctly translate it as it is used in 1 John 1:6: “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.” (NKJV). Here “poieo” is translated, “practice.”

    As you can see there is a huge difference between the person who walks in fellowship with Christ and sins on occasion – and the one who continually practices a life of sin – no matter what their profession.”

    In case you didn’t notice the nuance of the Greek word “poieo.” I will expound upon it further for your benefit. While it can be translated “to make or do,” it CANNOT be so translated without the sense of a workman or tradesperson does or makes; i.e. it means what he does as a way of life, habit, passion, or practice.

    Had you had the capacity, tools, or knowledge to do so, you should also have noted that the same word, “poieo” is used by the same writer (John and the Holy Spirit) in 1 John 1:6 where it is translated “practice,” as you have said it is not to be translated.

    I trust you did not make this error intentionally and deliberately. I do trust, however, that this will serve as a reproof and rebuke that you and others who think they can abuse, misuse, and mishandle God’s Word by their rudimentary knowledge of a Greek lexicon, will not be tempted to do so.

    For those of you who have the educational and financial ability, there are not only courses in the Biblical languages, but there are English publications by well-studied, evangelical experts, who have written down their knowledge, insight, and understanding of those languages and how they should be used in God’s Word to translate it. I urge you to do so.

    If you can’t or won’t take the time, finances, and effort to do this, I urge you to please, please, please, refrain from displaying your ignorance and – sadly in some cases, perpetrating false doctrines and erroneous interpretations.

    If I have appeared to be hard in this post, it is not my intention to be an offense to anyone. It is what it is, however, – a reproof and rebuke done in love – not only for those who are guilty of such errors, but also for those who are easily led astray by such error.

    May God richly bless you all,
    In Christ, Wayne

  291. Watchful, Roger(NZ), Barry, Serenity, and all,

    Great comments and I agree with what you shared. I think the internet is a poor substitute for fellowship but its what some of us have to deal with for now. Its easy to misunderstand what someone is trying to convey at least for me it is sometimes.

    I liked what one brother shared early on that we need to just stay with the simplicity in Christ as little children. As someone else stated little children don’t even think about it at all they just trust what their father told them.

    As we have all seen the internet fruit throwing contest gets us no where, Watchful I hope watermelons aren’t fruit. 🙂

    I am not saying doctrine is not important because in these last days we have every wind of doctrine going through the body of Christ. Ministering in the Spirit is a learning process.

    I appreciate what everyone has shared, and I apologize if I misunderstood some comments as well.

    Lord Bless everyone here and may we all be counted worthy to escape all the things coming on the earth.


  292. watchful Mar 18th 2013

    Amen Gary, and amen Serenity to your post..

  293. watchful Mar 18th 2013

    oh Andrew J, I hope you like watermelon, whhooooeeee!…and share a slice with me. 😉

    Most of us are conceived of the Holy Spirit but we are not fully born of Him yet, and so we keep running the race so as to win the prize! To be re-born, ie, resurrected, we first must “die”, and that’s where our crosses come in handy. Maybe that will help clarify….if so, praise and glory to the Lord alone! Also the difference between “having” sin, ie, sin living in us, as opposed to practising it, I find that helpful as well, if someone already mentioned that I apologize, my memory is not always the greatest.

  294. Christian journalist Mar 18th 2013

    As we remain on the subject of Grace, I wish to share this word with yourselves written by a brother in Christ called Pastor Keith Brown whom I know.
    May this be of encouragement to everyone, and a warning about “hyper grace.”

    – A Thought for Today –

    “GRACE be unto you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” Philippians 1:2

    Out of thirteen epistles written by Paul the Apostle, included in our Bible, eleven of them start and end with GRACE, in Paul’s opening and closing salutations. Paul knew the absolute importance of God’s GRACE in the lives of true believers. In Christendom today, the importance of God’s GRACE is largely ignored, but it is treasured and precious in the lives of TRUE BELIEVERS.

    We cannot receive ANYTHING from God, except by His GRACE! We do not deserve, or have any RIGHT to receive anything from Him, yet He is a God of GRACE. All Mankind, whether saved or lost, receive what is known as the COMMON GRACE OF GOD. Not common, as in CHEAP, but common to all people, because it is universal.

    “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven; for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” Matt. 5:45

    The simple things like sunshine and rain, and even the air that we breathe, are gifts of God’s GRACE to all mankind.

    But God’s GRACE goes much, much further than the normal things we take so much for granted. For if we have a desire to know Him, and have a love of the TRUTH, we can be gloriously saved by the GRACE of God.

    “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

    PLEASE take careful note of that well known verse. You can ONLY be saved by GRACE. Any WORKS that we may do, whatever they are or however good they may seem to us, CAN NEVER SAVE US.

    Augustus Toplady expressed it so wonderfully in the well know hymn that he wrote, Rock Of Ages.

    Not the labour of my hands
    Can fulfil Thy law’s demands;
    Could my zeal no respite know?
    Could my tears forever flow?
    All for sin could not atone;
    Thou must save, and Thou alone.

    Nothing in my hand I bring,
    Simply to Thy cross I cling;
    Naked, come to Thee for dress,
    Helpless, look to Thee for GRACE,
    Foul, I to the fountain fly,
    Wash me Saviour, or I die.

    I hope you get the picture here. You cannot earn it, you don’t deserve it, you are not entitled to it, you have no divine right to it. You can only be SAVED by the GRACE OF GOD.

    If you are genuinely saved, a REAL CHRISTIAN, not a pretender, remember, anything that we receive from God, as Christians, is also BY HIS GRACE.

    We have no right to demand, we cannot ‘positively speak things into being’. When we pray, we need to make our requests known unto God.

    “Be careful for nothing; but in everything BY PRAYER and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God” Philippians 4:6

    I’m sure that many in Christendom today think God has given us ‘magic words’ to repeat, chant or otherwise use to ‘twist’ God’s arm into giving them what they want. I tell you a truth, such practises border on the occult and have no place in a REAL CHRISTIAN’S life.

    When we pray to God, we can make our requests, and appeal to Him, but it’s only BY HIS GRACE that we will receive from His hand.

    I can almost hear some saying now “ What about my RIGHTS as a believer?” Sorry, but especially as a REAL BELIEVER, you have no rights! You are no longer your own, you are His and have been bought with a price! (1 Cor. 6:20) The REAL CHRISTIAN is totally in God’s almighty hand, the very BEST PLACE TO BE!

    Brotherly love…..Pastor Keith

  295. CMAman Mar 18th 2013

    ….Grace versus Works

    The opposite of grace is legalism (keeping the law or doing human good works). (Romans 11:6) Legalism is performing human good works in an attempt to gain the favor or approval of God, either for salvation or spirituality. Producing human good brings glory to man. Producing divine good brings glory to God. Human works added to faith in salvation cancels grace. (Galatians 2:16) Human works added to the Christian life cancels grace. (Galatians 5:1)

    Examples of Legalism

    1) Trying to work your way to heaven.

    2) Trying to impress God with your manner of life, money, church attendance or reformation of the devil’s world, etc.

    3) Saying that you must do good works in order to keep from losing your salvation.

    4) Telling other believers how they must act, dress, talk, etc. in order to appear spiritual. In other words, forcing certain taboos on others.

    Galatians 5:1 says to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Liberty means that Christ has set us free from law-keeping and legalism (the yoke of bondage). He accomplished this by introducing a new covenant between God and man called Grace.

    Application of Grace

    1) Learn and apply the Word of God to our daily thoughts and experiences. II Timothy 2:15; Romans 12:1-2; II Peter 3:18

    2) Love one another as Christ has loved us. I John 4:7

    3) Share your faith with others. Matthew 28:19-20

    4) Be tolerant of others. Philippians 2:1-4

    5) Pray for others. James 5:16

    6) Stop living in the past. Philippians 3:13-14

    7) Stop feeling guilty for past failures or sins. Psalms 103:12, Hebrews 12:1-2

    8) Stop worrying about everything. Philippians 4:6

    9) Let others see the light of Christ in your life. Ephesians 5:1-17

    10) Begin to think divine viewpoint. Philippians 2:5-13

    11) Take your problems to the Throne of Grace and leave them there. Hebrews 4:16; I Peter 5:7

  296. Our dear brother Wayne has twice attempted to present clarification to 1st John’s declaration of the sin that exist in our self centered humanity, verses a false understanding of the complete eradication of sin within the humanity of the believer as 1st John’s 3:4 seemingly contradicts that first part of John’s letter.

    Several years ago, an individual posted his perfectionist doctrine on John the Baptist TV and accused all in disagreement with him as occultist. I have dusted off an answer that I posted to his misunderstanding, and with Wayne I hope it brings further clarity, with the irradiation of the obvious confusion. Sin brings confusion, but our God is not a God of confusion.

    The Apostle John, in his first epistle, wrote gracious instruction to the followers of Jesus Christ.

    > 1-8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1-9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1-10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 2-1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And (but) if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;  2-2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    The Lord understands fully the weakness of the flesh of man for HE was the Son of Man, and in His absolute victory over sin and death, He enables us by faith to overcome little by little as we yield our old selfish idolatrous nature to the Blood of His Covenant that speaks of His great love for us and the rest of mankind. As most of us can attest, perfect obedience slumbers in our minds of flesh, for we experience many failures along the way of new Life in Christ Jesus. The poisonous sting of sin condemns us, but the grace of God always provides the way for renewal of the spirit of our minds, if we yield to Him. In Christ Jesus, we all begin as babes, soiling our diapers, but with nurture we progress into a new awareness of God within our adolescence, even with our rash foibles, and then as we continue in God’s grace there can be a maturing into the full measure of the love of Christ within His One Body of believers.

    God is very gracious to provide in His New Covenant with man, the Communion Blood of Jesus Christ to bring about the cleansing and strengthening of all of the members of His Body. John, in his love for our Savior and for his followers, witnesses for us in his letter of the grace that is in the Blood of Jesus Christ that enables all of the baptized believers to either return or renew our dependence upon the God of the Living Word and to be in Communion with the Father through the propitiating New Covenant Blood of His Son Jesus. “And the Lord took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to His disciples, saying: All of you drink of it; for this is My Blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sin.” The King James version of 1st John 3 verse 9 as it is “transliterated” from the Greek, cuts off the gracious words of John that preceded it in chapters 1 and 2. If we cut off the beginning two chapters, then God’s Covenant grace in the Blood of Jesus Christ is cut off, and Plagiarism or the proud accomplishment of self will would be an insufficient means for justification and sanctification before holy, holy, holy God. 

    It is a spiritual, as well as a practical fact that we are all to be responsible for our sins and the disruption that our self centered judgment causes, not only to us, but especially in our relationship to God first, and secondly to our brothers and sister in the Body of Christ, as well as to those without. We do not continue to “practice” the will of sin that is entangled in the mind self idolatrous flesh, but we “practice” the works of the Spirit through God’s Agape type of Love.

    Below is a little study on the Greek word (poiei) and how it is interpreted in John’s epistle in English in both the KJV and NAS versions of the bible. The NAS is consistent in how it is used in John’s first epistle, while the KJV is variant in its translation giving confusion to the reader.
    The Greek word under discussion in the text of 1st John is poiei poy-eh’-o – Strong’s 4160. In the NAS the Greek word (poiei) is transliterated 563 times into 95 new testament English words and thoughts. Among the 95 new testament words is [practice]

    The following are some of the 563 usages of the Greek word (poiei) in the NAS and other current scripture versions that are understood to be correct in the English vernacular. perform, 4; performed, 8; performing, 7; performs, 1; practice, 5; practices, 11; practicing, 1; present, 1; proceeding, 1; produce, 3; produced, 1; produces,

    The seventeenth century King James Version is much narrower as it translates the word (poiei) 222 times into 14 new testament English words and thoughts, and does not specifically translate the Greek word (poiei) at all into [practice]. KJV (222) – bear, 4; bring forth, 14; cause, 9; commit, 9; deal, 2; do, 3; fulfil, 3; keep, 4; make, 113; misc, 43; not tr, 3; perform, 2; show, 5; work, 8;

    The following passages, from the 1st Epistle of John, are for comparisons between KJV and NAS with the original Greek scriptures positioned between the two English interpretations.

    KJV 2-29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that (doeth G4160 poiei) righteousness is born of him.
    ean eidhte oti dikaiov estin, ginwskete oti kai pav o (poiwn G4160) thn dikaiosunhn ec autou gegennhtai.
    NAS 2-29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who (practices G4160 poiei) righteousness is born of Him.

    KJV 3-4 Whosoever (committeth G4160) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    Pav o poiwn thn amartian kai thn anomian poiei, kai h amartia estin h anomia.
    NAS 3-4Everyone who (practices G4160) sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

    KJV 3-7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that (doeth G4160) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    Greek Teknia, mhdeiv planatw umav; o (poiwn G4160) thn dikaiosunhn dikaiov estin, (5748) kaqwv ekeinov dikaiov estin;
    NAS 3-7(R)Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who (practices G4160) righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

    KJV 3-9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (poiei) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot * sin , because he is born of God.
    Greek Pav o gegennhmenov ek tou qeou amartian ou (G3756) poiei, (G4160) oti sperma autou en autw menei; kai ou dunatai amartanein, oti ek tou qeou gegennhtai.
    NAS 3-9 No * one who is born of God practices (G4160) sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.

    clickhear for the English translation of poiei

    Finally, please notice how Vines Dictionary treats the Greek word poieo
    A2. Commit, Commission [Verb]
    poieo “to do, cause, etc.,” sometimes signifies “to commit, of any act, as of murder,” Mark_15:7; sin, John_8:34; 2_Cor_11:7; James_5:15. See DO.
    Note: In 1_John_3:4,8,9, the AV [KJV] wrongly has “commit” (an impossible meaning in 1_John_3:8); the RV rightly has “doeth,” i.e., of a continuous habit, equivalent to prasso, “to practice.” The committal of an act is not in view in that passage.

  297. Serenity: I wish to bring to your attention, ‘How God can put us on probation? He has already stated the world cannot understand the Word, It is not for them. Although a secular person can read the Word and be Conflicted by The Word. That can be easily missunderstood, unless it is ‘enately’ understood.

    While reading your post, Immediately I thought of the One little Lost Lamb. Why would Our Shephard leave the other ninety nine and go looking for that One. And when He found Him, He brought him home…and all Heaven rejoiced? Your “probablies” just don’t add to The Simple Word of God. It makes it confusing. He can test us as much as He likes. We are not to test Him. Fleeceing was in the Old Testament. So, I think the term “logically thinking” is not in that Chapter either. Logical thinking can play havoc to Scripture. After I read the chapter, it was so smooth and cool and meaningful. After I read your take, I was absolutely confused. That means I was reading the Bible right, or it didn’t mean what it said. God never says anything thats not 100% true. Not to complicate His way. My path is easy, my burden is light, (not iffy). I learned a lesson very early in my walk with the Lord. If I didn’t understand what the reason for certain verses, I learned to leave it alone until The Holy Spirit directed my thoughts, not me, my logic. When we love God as He tells us to; when we Trust Him and obey as He tells us to, we will start on the rode of maturity. We are on our way when we can love others as ourselves, we are making huge in roads. When we HATE sin, as God does, sin will no more have reign over Us. He loves and guides us all the way. Don’t ever doubt He’s so ahead of us, that all we can do is make ourselves look more laughable by rephrasing His thoughts.. Who could ever outthink God Almighty? No one, but no one can clarify His Word for Him. He won’t allow it. The Holy Spirit is within us to teach us Truth. All else is straw and rubbish/stubble.

  298. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    Andrew J.H. – I love you as the brother in Christ Jesus our risen Lord, that you are. 🙂

    Having shared with you over a couple of years, I think I understand what you are saying – this is the ongoing process of sanctification, isn’t it..?

    The Holy Spirit working from the inside to cleanse ‘me’ (the vessel), of ‘self’.

    In His love,

  299. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    The Hebrew understanding is the English word SIN covers many different DEEDS committed.

    Sin is an action committed in THOUGHT, WORD, or DEED.

    INIQUITY/INIQUITIES refers to the ATTITUDES AND MOTIVES that are ROOTED in our SOUL/SIN NATURE. This is why we are told in scripture to “PUT ON” the mind of Christ……….obviously this “putting on” is an active verb present tense. IT WAS NOT A DONE DEAL when we came to the cross of Jesus.

    The SOUL is made up of 3 parts:
    1) the mind(thoughts, dreams, desires, knowledge, reasoning, imaginations, speculations;belief system)
    2)the will (DECISIONS, willfullness/stubbornness, resistance, rebellion)
    3)And the emotions. UnGodly emotions.

    Rom 12:2 KJV
    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Phl 2:5 KJV
    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Col 3:12 KJV
    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    2Ti 1:7 KJV
    For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    Hbr 8:10 KJV
    For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    1Pe 1:13 KJV
    Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    Rom 8:7 KJV
    Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    1Cr 3:1 KJV
    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

    1Cr 3:3 KJV
    For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    Romans 7 talks about the SIN NATURE THAT DWELLS IN EVERY person. “…..sin dwells in me”
    Paul tells us HOW that SIN NATURE is ERADICATED from us in Romans 7 and 8.

    Obviously Paul did not think it was as simple as “Ye must be BORN AGAIN”……BECAUSE Paul never gives that as a solution to the problem.
    INSTEAD…..Paul takes the whole 8th chapter to teach the ALREADY born again the solution……WALK BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and the Holy Spirit will TRANSFORM your soul to the IMAGE OF JESUS CHRIST, WHILE your are Walking by His Spirit!

    It is just that SUPERNATURALLY SIMPLE.

    This is why we need to check out the Greek and Hebrew and let the Holy Spirit INTERPRET.

    Don’t let people INTIMIDATE you from checking out the ORIGINAL languages that our LORD USED.

    I use to be INTIMIDATED by people who use to say :

    “You don’t need to know Greek and Hebrew to know the Lord” (which is true, by the way…but why STAY IGNORANT AND FOOLISH?)

    “You’re too HEAVENLY MINDED to be any EARTHLY GOOD”

    “Knowledge doesn’t prove anything”
    (which is true, also. When you separate knowledge and the Spirit of Truth and when you worship knowledge)

    There are many warnings against be foolish.

    Wisdom is a Person. The Spirit of Wisdom is the Holy Spirit. Wisdom is the COMBINATION of knowledge AND EXPERIENCE.

    The Trinity is meant to be EXPERIENCED by mankind…..not just acquired facts like reading a biography, or a history book, or an INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

  300. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    Wayne and Robert Glenn,
    I would ask that you both re-read Andrew J.H.’s post again please..?

    I understand that you may both have a greater understanding of Greek than many here, yet with that knowledge you may have missed the Spirit in Andrew’s sharing.

    Putting aside the Greek for the moment, and although you have used knowledge to put others down, I believe that you have both used different words to say the same thing as A.J.H…?

    Lord Jesus called lowly, uneducated men to follow Him, as His disciples.

    He doesn’t need our knowledge, (our ‘Greek’ mindset), He desires those who may not understand God, but who will love, worship and obey Him, learn to walk in His favour, to trust God, to walk in His Spirit. This ‘Hebrew’ mindset, is the ‘mind’ that has been transformed by God.

    I share this in His love with you both – I pray that you will hear and receive in this same love..?


  301. chas351 Mar 18th 2013

    Pastor Keith, Lightning Storm


    “NORMAL is SIN”


  302. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    1Co 1 “..For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

  303. Roger(NZ)

    I know exactly what you are saying here. I took some courses one time by a leading Greek Bible Scholar on the book of James.

    This man was Greek, spoke it, read it and he knew the older Biblical Greek as well. I was very excited to take his course. When we got to certain scriptures though I was a little let down.

    It was this portion of the book:

    James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

    Because this did not line up with his background he made it fit his view using the Greek language.

    He said: What this verse meant was that if any young men in the congregation became sick that the pastor was required to give him a massage.

    I am not kidding, I still have the books. He shared a lot more that I will not get into but I was totally shocked.

    To this day I am leery when men try to use the Greek and the Hebrew to “prove anything they want”.

    I’m not saying it is not a good tool to do word studies but many times I find people use it to fit their doctrines.


  304. Several years ago, there was a sister with the handle of “Avoice”, who started a thread called simply “Communion”. In the exchange, a Mr Souden wrote the following:

    We too believed that something was wrong, and we sought the Lord as individuals. God led me to John 6:26-66, where I believe He showed me that His words at that last passover meal shows that He is our ‘meat and drink’. (I haven’t included all the verses) [Mr Souden then listed the scripture verses of John 6:35-58]

    Well, I and the others are still seeking the Lord Jesus for a full answer on this, and the words that came to me about a month ago are: “Bread of Life and Cup of Suffering”

    ..and then just this last week, He gave me more: “Religion partakes of the symbol only of the body and the blood (communion); relationship partakes of the Person of the body and the blood.”
    am still seeking Jesus on this, but at the moment I am looking at this ‘eating of His flesh, and drinking of His blood’ from verse 56 as a continuation of Jesus dwelling in me, with Him increasing as I decrease. In the same way as He is my sabbath, I rest in Him 7 days a week, and giving 100% not just tithing 10% – as discussed on other threads…

    Some of the others, mentioned above, see these ’emblems’ as symbolic. We are all still seeking the Lord for His truth.

    ..as you said Avoice, this should get a conversation going – and I will be interested to read others prayerful comments.
    In Jesus our Lord,
    his name

    On that which Mr Souden received, I would agree, but when I tried to give further help on what the Lord by His Spirit had given me, the clarifying message was ignored. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it would appear to me that unless God gave the message directly to that one individual then the grace of the message from another is not grace at all.

    I have see the sharp two-edged sword,
    Robert Glenn

  305. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    chas351…..I’m not sure what your point is by referring this video to me.

    But that video is what I have been talking about…..I totally agree.

  306. jorgedelaselva Mar 18th 2013

    Paul went from being ‘the least of the apostles’ in 1 Corinthians (AD 55) to ‘the least of all saints’ in Ephesians (AD 60) to finally becoming the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy (AD 64).

    Was that a successful walk? Why?

  307. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    Ohhhhhh…..I like where you’re going with that Jorgedelaselva! Very good very good.

  308. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    Robert Glenn – yes indeed, this is the same Roger, 🙂 and yes – I did visit your site at that time, as you asked of us all.

  309. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    jorgedelaselva – thankyou 🙂

    May we all have that same walk where ‘self’ is shed – where Christ Jesus our Lord is given the increase..

  310. Robert Mar 18th 2013

    Hey you guys and gals —

    THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN out there, does not have 40 bibles to go and look things up and disect and go to a lexicon and contemplate all day long. Matter of fact, that totally leaves out the HOLY SPIRIT.

    It is HE that teaches us and yep, we can read commentaries and books and bibles of all sorts, but that doesn’t make us brighter, smarter, or more gifted and talented.

    Matter of fact , in many cases, it puffs man up. And that is what I am hearing and reading from several of you folks that think they know it all because they have either gone to school, theology school, 40 different churches, or pastored in them. Boy, talk about folks that have pride issues — it is amazing !!!!!!!!!!

    You might all think you are being humble, but I had a couple of folks that just came to this website that are in a home bible church and they were totally amazed at the hard hearted conversation of “who is best or better to explain ” they were shocked , these are babes in the church that are having day to day conflicts just trying to make it as a Christian and you people are so pompus thinking you all have all the answers. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

    One person , asked “are these really Christians talking or is this a set up? “”” They act like they are superior to others ” And they are downing other folks by their superior attitudes”—-

    Now, if someone comes to this site and sees this, and then asks me these questions, I truly have to agree w/ them, because I see so much bloated boasting and not real human one on one behavior as in trying to help the fellow Christian coming along side another and trying to help them. What I see , is them trying to out do the other and prove everyone else as a dummy.!!!

    So, to all you that are doing this, SHAME ON YOU.

    There is more out there of the hurting , wounded , and messed up Christian that has and wants the TRUTH OF THE LORD — not opinions or what they gleen from all their worshipped learning. Most Christians , by the way, don’t have that nor has God called them to have it, so knock off the high and mighty attitudes of those that think they know it all. PLEASE> It is an embarrassment to younger Christians.!!!

  311. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    Why are they going to you or blogs for the answers to their questions?

    Were they not taught/directed how to enter into His Presence to hear His voice and walk with Him instead of man ?

    Going to a Hebrew or Greek dictionary is no different than going to a SPANISH dictionary when you are visiting a Spanish speaking country.

    Let the Holy Spirit do the INTERPRETING, let the dictionary do the TRANSLATING.

  312. Lightning Storm Mar 18th 2013

    I am just thinking on this subject of being IGNORANT AND FOOLISH versus BEING TAUGHT by the Holy Spirit through whatever MEANS the Holy Spirit CHOOSES to use.

    I have had people who were stuck in their walk with the Lord because enlightenment had not yet come from the Spirit. And then the Holy Spirit used the STRANGEST TOOLS to turn the “light bulb” on and EXPLAIN the truth in a way that these people could understand. These TOOLS did not fit into any “box” that religious people would accept…..yet the Holy Spirit’s TOOL brought BREAKTHROUGH.

    Who are we to JUDGE and declare “not of the Holy Spirit”?

    Perhaps having “little boxes” in which God must act or it is “not of God”……….perhaps having these boxes is of Pride and Arrogance?

    And we all know the verse: God RESISTS the Proud and gives GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

    What is the DEFINITION of the word HUMBLE in Hebrew and Greek?
    Oh yeah…that’s right……let’s pretend we already know what that is in Jesus Christ’s mind.
    The people that Jesus was talking to ALREADY KNEW THE LANGUAGE……and IT WASN’T ENGLISH.

  313. Serenity Mar 18th 2013

    Well sister Joan W., you certainly can wield the rod even though I understand you are a lady of mature years. 🙂

    Like everyone else on here, I’m a work in progress.
    I enjoy reading what others have written and weighing it up with Scripture. Only Scripture (and an accurate translation at that) is perfect in truth.
    [On that note I commend Ivan Panin’s N.T. and the ASV 1901.]

    However, Andrew S. has given each of us the invitation to share what we are seeing concerning an issue.
    We all read the same Bible and yet we manage to come up with conflicting conclusions.
    My great concern is that it is possible to ‘wrest’ the Scriptures to our own destruction. (2 Pet. 3 :16.)

    This whole life is a test, in which we are being observed and evaluated by our Heavenly Father.
    ‘… Jehovah, His throne is in heaven ; His eyes behold, His eyelids try, the children of men. Jehovah tries the righteous ; …’ (Psalm 11 : 4 & 5, in part.)

    Will we submit to Him and follow Him to the end ?
    How deep is our commitment and self-sacrificing obedience ? Eternity is at stake.
    I have seen people saved on or about their deathbed.
    Others have intentionally renounced Christ.
    Some have been deceived onto another path.
    Many are following their own belly to destruction, Paul wrote.

    Probation = a testing or trial, as of a person’s character, fitness for a position, etc, (says my dictionary).
    It can also mean, the period of testing or trial.
    This only ends somewhere about the hour of death.

    I reckon not myself yet to have apprehended, but I follow on toward the mark unto the prize of the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    Bless you sister Joan, watchful, lightningstorm, GaryB, Andrew J. Horton, Pastor Wayne, Andrew Strom, and all the innumerable other unseen brothers and sisters on here.

  314. Yes Roger, It is the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit which I am describing in my preceding post, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  315. Ephesians 1:5-7

    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

  316. Roger (NZ) Mar 18th 2013

    GaryB – re your previous, I understand your ‘shock’ 🙁

  317. Jda016 Mar 19th 2013

    I don’t think anyone here denies that we are saved by grace alone.

    The problem comes when people think that God’s grace is freedom to sin.

    God’s grace is His love for us, however our love for Him is obeying His word.

    “If you love me, Obey my commandments” (John 14:15).

    I knew someone who misused the idea of grace and was having an affair with another man’s wife. He felt it was perfectly alright and had no remorse because God loves him and His grace covers it.

    “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.”

    I felt God once showed me that the reason it is Amazing Grace is because of the word “wretch.” This man of whom I spoke never saw his wretchedness and therefore never really knew what God’s grace was.

    We do not abstain from sin because we are looking to earn our salvation, we abstain because we love God and are so grateful for the salvation He has already freely given.

  318. ROGER (NZ): I have read and re-read Andrew J Horton’s post several times – and did so prior to making my post, as I try to understand one’s communication prior to responding to it.

    I believe there are several points worthy of note in both his post and your response to myself and Robert Glen.

    I agree with you that it is important to attempt to understand a person’s spirit and/or where they are coming from – and/or why they are saying what they are saying. A forum, such as this one, sometimes makes it difficult to execute communication well.

    The better the communicators know one another, the better the communication usually is as they better understand the person and background of each other. It seems obvious from your posts that you’ve had a number of interchanges with Andrew Horton and better understand his communication.

    Outside of that, however, one can only deal with a communication as it is given out. Perhaps, some who post here should spend more time honing their communications before they post them rather than just rattling off the first things which come to their minds (and I’m not saying that either of you are guilty of that, but that it is obvious the communications of some have this characteristic).

    As I understand part of your post to us, you are saying that Andrew H. was saying the same thing as we were. I cannot speak for Robert Glen, but I will speak for myself as I understand what was said. While it appeared that Andrew J. H. may have been saying some of what I was saying – it is also apparent that he was contradicting himself, as well as the Scriptures.

    While we can focus on a person’s spirit or intention, there is a good reason why there exists the English proverb, “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Likewise, I’m sure you have encountered (as I have) individuals who were very sincere in their beliefs about God, spirituality, Jesus Christ, and salvations. They may be very sincere with the best of intentions but are nonetheless sincerely wrong in their beliefs. So, although the right spirit may be there, what is said (or communicated) may be very wrong. I believe this to be the case with Andrew J H’s post.

    He very clearly stated, in reference to 1 John 3:9, “It does not mean, ‘No one who is born of God ‘practices’ (like habitually does it all the time) sin but might commit the occasional sin’ but actually means that no one who is born of God sins at all, i.e. the person (the new creation) who has been born of God cannot sin…”

    He then appealed to the Greek to confirm his inaccurate and errant doctrine. The fact is that an accurate reading of the Greek says just the opposite of his erroneous reading and interpretation.

    You said, “Putting aside the Greek for the moment, and although you have used knowledge to put others down, I believe that you have both used different words to say the same thing as A.J.H…?”

    I’m somewhat puzzled by your dual standard (hypocracy) of telling us to put aside the Greek when it was AJH who brought it up. You accuse us while excusing him?????? Very puzzling indeed.

    Also, I did not bring correct understanding of the Greek “to put others down.” Rather, it was as I stated – to bring reproof and correction to erroneous teaching. I was not putting HIM down – but rather I was challenging his doctrine compared to Scripture and its correct interpretation. Why is it that those professing Christ in these days have no problem spouting off all kinds of nonsense which can lead others astray, but then brissle when correction is brought in the love of Christ with the hope that those corrected will learn and grow in the image of Christ?

    It does Christ no honour when those professing His name spout off erroneous doctrine and base it on a superficial knowledge of the Scriptures demonstrating their ignorance of such. There are unsaved in the world who are better educated in such things, who reject the claim of Christians because of the ignorant claims which some Christians make.

    It is one thing to have the claims of Christ rejected because “the preaching of the cross is foolishness” to them. It is quite another when Christians manufacture stumblingblocks due to their ignorance and/or stupidly, and/or gullibility, and/or lack of wisdom.

    Also, you said, “He [Christ] doesn’t need our knowledge, . . .” You’re right! How can He who is all-knowing NEED our knowledge? We need His. The thing you fail to realize in your argument is that one way a person can better come to His understanding is to fully understand what the the Holy Spirit’s original inspiration meant to the people for whom it was written. This includes gaining knowledge of cultures, customs, and the original languages, as well as a general indepth knowledge of the Scriptures to help gain understanding in context.

    I can fully understand that many believers cannot (for one reason or another) be able to gain indepth knowledge in such things. I believe that is one reason why Christ has appointed teachers as a vital and important role in bringing believers to maturity in Christ and helping them to gain excellence in the ministry He has called them to.

    Those who reject such teaching often are insistent on remaining in their ignorance (and it is not uncommon for them to be proud of it). And yes, I did read GaryB’s post on his experience with a so-called Greek scholar. This only proves that ANYONE can twist the Scriptures for their own ends. In contrast, however, there does exist teaching, from mature evangelical brothers and sisters, which is sound and lines up with the truth (not only the truth of the Scriptures, but also the truth of the original languages, cultures, customs, etc.). If you compare GaryB’s teacher with the ones of which I speak, GaryB’s is obviously aberrant.

    You argue that. “Lord Jesus called lowly, uneducated men to follow Him, as His disciples.” I would suggest that your argument is a twisting of fact in an attempt to support your thinking. The truth is that Christ’s disciples were not uneducated. Each Jewish boy was trained in the Hebrew Scriptures, which also ” . . .consisted of reading, writing, and perhaps the elements of arithmetic. Schooling began at the age of six or seven. Before this age Jewish fathers were accustomed to teach their sons the Shema (Dt 6:4), certain proverbs, and certain verses from the Psalms. In school the children sat on the ground, and repeated the words of the lesson after the master until they knew it. Great attention was paid to pronunciation and learning by heart. The principal study was the Law, of which Leviticus was taken first, as containing the information about legal observances most necessary for a boy approaching manhood to know. The boys were very anxious to read well, because the best readers were allowed to read the lessons from the Law in the synagogue services. (A Commentary on the Holy Bible: The One Volume Bible Commentary – J.R. Dummelow – Copyright, 1908, 1909). The reason the disciples were referred to as “unlearned and ignorant men” by the snobbish Jewish leaders (Acts 4:13) likely was because they had not had the training of the rabbinical schools that these leaders had. It might be today’s equivalent of one with a PhD referring to a high school or college graduate as “ignorant and unlearned,” merely because they didn’t have the same level of education.

    Your argument also ignores the fact that the Apostle Paul had the educational equivalent of today’s PhD, who appeared to have Greek as well as Hebrew education, and who was used of God to write the bulk of the New Testament. By the way, Paul was also called to be a disciple of Christ, though not “uneducated” (as per your description).

    Also, you argue “Greek mindset” vs. the “Hebrew mindset.” While it is true there was a different paradigm or philosophical basis between Greek and Hebrew thinking/philosophy, such information does not apply to your argument. It is ludicrous to presume such a contrast exists merely because the bulk of the NT was written in Greek. It is also erroneous to assume that the “Hebrew mindset” is God’s mindset. The Pharisees who opposed and crucified Christ had a “Hebrew mindset,” yet they were opposed to God. Paul, having Greek education and writing his epistles in Greek was not espousing Greek philosophy, thinking, or mindset – but rather God’s. So, just because Greek was the original language used to write the NT, it does not mean that it presents a “Greek mindset.” Likewise, the proper understanding of the NT Greek does not mean one thinks from a “Greek mindset.”

    The better one can know and understand God and His communications to us, the better one can (to use your words), “love, worship and obey Him, learn to walk in His favour, to trust God, to walk in His Spirit.” After all, eternal life is to KNOW the Father and the Son (John 17:3). The Greek word for “know” means “to know intimately.”

    To use an analogy, the better I “know” my wife, the better I can love and serve her. Likewise, the better I know God, the better I can love, worship, follow, and serve Him. The better I know and understand His communication, the better I can do these things. The study of the original languages, customs, cultures, etc. have greatly aided in the pursuit of knowing Him. Just to preculde those arguing that one needs the Holy Spirit to understand these things – I also have not only been born and baptized in the Holy Spirit, but also seek to continually be filled, walk in, and learn from the Holy Spirit. My studies have augmented His teaching and understanding. I urge you to read all of my original post on 1 John 3:9 and note the directing of the Holy Spirit to teach me truth by understanding the Greek.

    I trust this communication is sufficiently adequate for the readers to understand. If not, I will attempt to communicate more clearly, should you request it.

    May our Lord continue to grant us a full outpouring of His Grace to increase in the knowledge of Him, His ways, and His Word.

    God bless,

  319. chas351 Mar 19th 2013

    Lightning Storm

    nothing personal.. i enjoyed reading some of your posts and thought the video might be useful.. i came across this young man recently and was mightily encouraged.. people on FIRE for the Lord, NOT scared to preach the TRUTH are pretty rare nowadays.

    Hi “ALL”

    >be encouraged> this is real disipleship / commitment>


    and also this man is way out there!!



  320. Roger (NZ) Mar 19th 2013

    LightningStorm – we understand that the Holy Spirit will use whichever method that He chooses – to reach individuals as they are drawn to, or are seeking, Almighty God – whether that be circumstance, ‘co-incidence’, scripture, a direct revelation, another person, a word in any language – or any other method.

    Robert made a comment earlier, implying that to use ones ‘knowledge’ to prove oneself, is wrong.

    It can be hard to share in this environment, we cannot always understand what the other is saying, or what they are thinking as they post a comment, and we certainly don’t know their life history.

    We do not all have the gift of languages, and we will all have different levels of education.

    Yes, we are to correct error, – however, we can ask questions, and we can share in love – those of us who are born-again should demonstrate some of the fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit – toward all who post or read in forums, or blogs, like this.

    In His love,

  321. Roger (NZ) Mar 19th 2013

    Wayne – thankyou for your reply. I had not ‘refreshed’ the screen, and therefore had not read it (your reply) before my above post to L.S. – although it may seem as though I had 🙂

  322. Serenity. You are a dear wonderful person of much knowledge. You remind me of me when I was a much younger person. Let’s see, I have so many different Bibles I can’t name them any more. I had all the necessary Bible attachments (Concordence, Vine’s Dictionary, commentaries, I was just loaded down in religiousity (theology) materials,and the ‘popular’ figures of the day, leading the classes on the hot subjects of the day. Even today, I have a Bible right next to where I sit. Next to my bed, the living room where I sit, in the computer room (about 4)in case I want to look up and answer what I’ve been asking myself about. I was a Pentecostal gang busters and ready for any occasion, any question. After I studied all the main subjects I wanted to totally understand, I withdrew my fearful assault on God’s Word. When we didn’t keep our eyes on subjects, things, opinions, any and all church topics, I was empty. Totally and tragically empty.

    I may have thought I had “more” of Christ Jesus. I didn’t converse with Him like I should have been doing. The Bible speciffically tells me He is all that I need. His Spirit will do all my Truth work. Even while I raised my five children He said I needed His personal help. His second hand study lessons were not his first hand personal directions, I would have grown so much faster had I realized He was much more important than the second hand knowledge. .I had a ‘know it all a Bible mentality then. After all those years I was “showing myself approved. He has always been my beginning and my end; He is my Alpha and my Omega. Don’t tarry too long on His Words about Life. Fulfill your life with Him and His Spirit will gently guide you forward. And, no one knows the answer to that but God Himself. He created you and loves you dearly….don’t hold Him off as long as I did. And, I love you too, Serenity. You have to ask yourself: “Do you want to know everything about Him” Or do you want to know Him personally. Big difference. Knowledge dies with death. Knowing Him personally carries you into eternity.

  323. Regarding the article , and many other forms of distorting the simple truth of our risen Lord Jesus Christ, are not all these things we are seeing, simply a fulfillment of the warnings and prophecies concerning these times , that are recorded in the bible ?

    Regarding the debate that comes in discussing comments that are made on articles like this , it can be easy to fall into the trap of wanting our own understanding validated by others , when Lord Jesus Christ is the final judge of truth and error in all of us.

    For it is only from Him that we receive the certainty of His truth within , the peace that comes from His spirit within, that surpasses our own understanding, settling us on the true foundation that is unaffected by the storms of this age and all the different winds of doctrine that He has forewarned us about.

    In His Love


  324. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013

    wow, Pastor Wayne, Perhaps you should look back at your last post and look at how many times you use terms that seem to exalt your intelligence over others. Frankly, it makes me cringe. No way, I would take time to read your entire post. It is demeaning

    I know many youngsters who would never darken the door of a church because all knowing religious spirits rule the roost.

  325. Serenity Mar 19th 2013


    You have summed it up in one short, sweet piece.

    Thank you.

  326. jackrabbit Mar 19th 2013

    It is because they are just using God.

  327. Roger (NZ) Mar 19th 2013

    Wayne – you may have missed, or misunderstood, my earlier comment, which included a very brief description of ‘greek’ and ‘hebrew’ mindsets..?

    Greek – get more education, knowledge is power, study theology and doctrine, so you can reason with human intellect. (This is the world of today, and much of religious church.)

    Hebrew – we may not understand God, but we will love, worship and obey Him, learn to walk in His favour, trust God. (This is the mind that has been transformed by God.

    I could have explained that better 🙂

    The differing ‘mindsets’ shouldn’t be confused with different ‘languages’, and has nothing to do with which language the scriptures were written in.

    It is to do with whether we gain education and knowledge for the purpose of intellectual reasoning – or, whether we trust that God will teach us through His Spirit.

    – We are not to walk in fear, but in faith.
    – We are not to walk in pride (self), but trust in Him.

    Paul in Phillipians 2 describes the mind of Christ Jesus, and in Romans 12 instructs that we should be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

    John 14 explains that the Holy Spirit, (Spirit of Truth) will be both teacher and comforter.

    So, we are to walk in the Holy Spirit, be led by the Spirit, and this same Spirit will gradually restore our mindset to ‘Hebrew’ – this is the mind of Christ Jesus, this is the mind of God, and His desire – that we trust in Him, that we love, worship and obey Him.

    Yes there are God raised teachers, who have studied languages, culture, and customs, and who have the gifting to be able to ‘teach’ both young and old, in years and in spiritual maturity. They demonstrate the spiritual fruit of Galatians 5, and are much needed, – and recognised by, members of the body of Christ Jesus our Lord..

    In His love,

    Thank you for your feedback, but is it obvious you are correct – you didn’t take the time to read the whole post.

    It also appears you fulfill my description of those who don’t bother to attempt to understand what one writes, but instead fires off a knee-jerk response. May I suggest you learn the lesson of Proverbs 18:13 before you respond to another’s post.

    Just because one uses words that are longer than two syllables it doesn’t necessarily mean he is exalting his intellect. Perhaps he is being careful and accurate with his communication to help prevent misunderstanding – at least by those attempting to understand.

    It is also interesting that my reply was not written to you or about what you said, but you deemed it necessary to meddle and stick your nose into someone else’s business.(may I also suggest you read Proverbs 26:17; 3:30).

    May I also ask why you feel it necessary to judge my motives and heart by either calling me or equating me with an “all knowing religious [spirit] rul[ing] the roost?” I don’t ask this for my benefit or in my defense. I really don’t care what you say about me or accuse me of. I am secure in my Lord and Master, Who is also the only Judge I need to concern myself with. I say it for your benefit and suggest you read what the NT says about judging the heart and/or motives of a fellow believer. You are treading on dangerous spiritual ground when you do such.

    My prayers are for you, though you seem to have proven that you bristle at rebuke or correction (meant for another) from a fellow believer in Christ and are likely to bristle at this one as well.

    You may also want to ask yourself why you felt demeaned by the correction meant for another?

    May you be blessed by our Lord.

  329. Greetings Roger!

    Yes, I did read your earlier post regarding the Hebrew mindset vs. the Greek mindset.

    Two things I would say about it. First, as I said, I don’t believe it really had a bearing upon the argument you were attempting to make simply because the Greek is the language used by the NT writers and I believe it should be interpreted with the meaning it was written with.

    Secondly, I believe that such a distinction is an artificially manufactured contrast. As one who has studied Biblical Hebrew from a Jewish professor from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, I think I have somewhat of an idea of what the Hebrew mindset is. However, it is the mindset of Christ which we, as believers, should be focussing upon. As I pointed out with my examples, the “Hebrew mindset” did not always align itself with God – nor did the “Greek mindset” always oppose God – and I suppose there must be some reason why God chose to have the NT originally written in the Greek language.

    Thank you for writing, however, and attempting to clarify.

    I also thank you for your focus upon the Holy Spirit. If I may, may I suggest another factor which bears upon our discussion. It is our gracious God who created our marvellous minds and intellect. I believe one of the reasons is that we may know Him more fully (although in one sense we can never know or understand Him completely – however, we are told that there is coming a day when “we shall know as we are known.”). While the Holy Spirit definitely can give understanding where one had none, I also believe that God’s Spirit will also work with our intellect and cause us to come to understanding.

    I don’t believe that true Christianity is meant to be mystical and subjective. Rather, once one’s spiritual eyes are opened by the Holy Spirit, the things of God are logical and reasonable – much as Christ opened the understanding of the two disciples as they walked the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13ff). In other words, I believe God more often chooses to operate in harmony with the intellect He gave us.

    While it is true that sin has left its warped impression upon our minds and intellect, it is equally true that the NT refers to the renewing of our minds after Christ. WOW!! I can have a new mind in Christ!! It is developed as the fruit of the Holy Spirit are – something we work at by and under His grace as we put off the thinking of the old man and put on the mind of Christ.

    It is interesting to me that this renewing is not a reference to a renewed spirit or renewed heart (although the biblical difference between heart and mind doesn’t really exist – just different terms for the same thing). This renewing is framed in the context of our minds or intellect or way of thinking being renewed in Christ.

    Histsorically, evangelicals have rejected higher education and the benefits of such. However, when submitted to Christ, one’s intellect can be used by the Spirit to help bring one to a greater understanding of God and those things belonging to God. Higher education, when used correctly and under the Spirit’s guidance, can help to open these understandings to fellow brothers and sisters. Also, it can be used to help point out erroneous doctrine and practices. Numerous times, Paul made reference to him speaking to various churches to line up with the teaching(s) he had given them. Paul also used intellectual arguments, in some cases, to argue for correct doctrine and practice,

    I say all this to say that I believe we should be careful about denegrading the blessed gift of intellect which God has given us. Used sinfully and wrongly, it can be a curse – as it is with any of God’s good gifts (one can misuse sexuality, God-given authority, one’s financial blessings, etc., etc.). However, when submitted to the Holy Spirit, the intellect can bring further understanding and blessings to the believer and his brothers and sisters.

    Be blessed in Christ, my brother, and may He continue to use you to be a blessing to others.

    Your brother in Christ,

  330. Roger (NZ) Mar 19th 2013

    Wayne, in all sincerity, thankyou so much:

    – for explaining clearly your understanding of my comments, and..

    – for cheering me up this evening with your ‘rebuke and correction’ of my “..attempt to clarify..” 🙂

    Now, you may not fully appreciate this – however – it is possible that jorgedelaselva, whom you corrected as well as myself, more clearly understood what I was saying concerning ‘mindsets’ as opposed to ‘languages’..?

    There is a difference..

    In the love and joy which is Christ Jesus our risen Lord,

  331. watchful Mar 19th 2013

    oh how we like to build fortresses with the mind, fortresses to keep out the things that make us afraid and keep us feeling in control and on top, and affirming of self and proud of self….but in so doing keeps out………..Love. Dear heavenly Father, help each one of us to let in……Love. Because that is what our hearts are really crying out for, it’s all we really need, in the end it’s all that really matters.

    My take on this is that western thinking, our natural carnal mind, tends to be compartmentalized, it’s useful and organized for aspects of earthly life, yes, but in the end is unspiritual. Whereas when the Lord reveals a thing by His Spirit don’t we find it comes like lightening and lights up the whole vista from east to west, and He gives us a glimpse of the picture as a whole, rather than in a series of bricks that our fortresses are made of. Do our minds need more information as such or is it more that they need to be renewed……?

    !CR 8:1………….. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

    1Cr 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

    1Cr 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

    Alright then, I will take a hint from our more scholarly ones here and will look up the definition of “renewed”……

  332. watchful Mar 19th 2013

    Psa 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good [things; so that] THY YOUTH IS RENEWED LIKE THE EAGLE’S

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but BE YE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

    2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the INWARD MAN IS RENEWED day by day.

    Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is RENEWED IN KNOWLEDGE after the image of him that created him

    ä-nä-kī’-nō-sēs (Key)

    Part of Speech
    feminine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From ἀνακαινόω (G341)
    TDNT Reference
    View Entry
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better

    Strong’s G341 – anakainoō
    ä-nä-kī-no’-ō (Key)

    Part of Speech
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From ἀνά (G303) and a derivative of καινός (G2537)
    TDNT Reference
    View Entry
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) to cause to grow up, new, to make new
    a) new strength and vigour is given to one

  333. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013

    Pastor Wayne, (and everybody else ) I don’t know you, but I do know that you are attempting to do great things for your God, in the fact that you call yourself to be a Pastor. My desire is to see you be very fruitful. I am attempting to get you to take a look at the way you communicate to others. Perhaps you will simply take my reply and allow the Lord to do with it as He pleases. I would not take 3 hours out of my life to think about and write this message to prove myself right. I am hopeful that my words will benefit you. My time is precious and when a 1750 word post is put up, I usually skim it to see if it worth my time.

    I appreciated the fact that you challenged me to completely read the referred to post. I appreciate the way you presented the education of the common Jewish young man, and contrasted it with PHDers. Your comments on the different mindsets were excellent. Every unregenerate mind, barbarian, Greek, or Hebrew, is antiChrist. I actually missed those good comments because of the caustic nature of your words about AJH in particular, turned me off to any further reading.

    Now your words to me have been that I have meddled in your private post “”someone else’s business””. If that is true, then we have a big problem, because then you have just convicted yourself as one who is talking to ROGER (NZ) about AJH. aka Gossiping. I trust you are not a gossip so it is only right that if you make a public post you are subject to public reply.

    I made comments about young people who are turned off by today’s church. I purposely spoke those words in a general sense, rather than specifically directing them at you. If you have problems with those words then I suggest you take it up with the Holy Spirit. The fact remains that many youngsters never darken the door of a church because all knowing religious spirits rule the roost just as the PHD Sanhedrin ruled Judaism at the time of Christ. (Knowledge does puff up, you know, and the best way I know for one to deal with any pride is regularly confess your sins to one another.)

    I reread AJH’s post and I do not necessarily agree that he can make an adamant statement (nor can you) as to whether or not practice would be the best definition of (poiei). Of the 21 English Bibles on biblios.com, 9 refer to practice, habit, or lifestyle.

    The Holy Spirit is so masterful, his ways are way past finding out. He knew this seemingly conflicting verse would cause some debate, especially when translated into another language. The question about this great debate is this. Will I still love a brother who sees something different than I? Will I respect his opinion? Can a Catholic and a Protestant love one another? (I am not referring to the absolute debates that divide Christianity from non-Christians )

    Some individuals look at I John and see the seemingly contradictive nature of some of the sin related passages and feel that they have to make those contradictions mesh. I prefer to look at it as a very mystic book , written by a man who was very mystic, (probably left brained) who was inspired by a very mystic God.

    I can tell you this in defense of the 12 Bibles that do not use ‘practice’ type interpretations of 1 John 3.9. Those who believe on Jesus, out of their bellies shall flow living waters, five wise virgins had a source of oil within themselves, my old man is crucified, I reckon that I am dead unto sin. THIS IS MY SPIRIT MAN NOW!! My soul is a different matter.

    Pastor Wayne, I confess to you that some day, I would like to be a pastor of men; and if that day does occur, one thing I would challenge each of my men to do is to regular look at the sins that so easily beset them, I am convinced that we need leaders that do likewise. That has been the main thrust of all the posts that I have put on this thread.

    I challenge you to reread your previous post, as I am going to repost it with [[double brackets]] around areas that seem most caustic to me. I challenge you to consider what are your besetting sins? Look at my previous posts and join Paul’s journey as he goes from being the least of all the Apostles, to the least of all the saints, to the chief of sinners. That will bring a sweet aroma of Christ that WILL draw youngsters.
    With much Love, George

  334. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013


    ROGER (NZ): I have read and re-read Andrew J Horton’s post several times – and did so prior to making my post, as I try to understand one’s communication prior to responding to it.

    I believe there are several points worthy of note in both his post and your response to myself and Robert Glen.

    I agree with you that it is important to attempt to understand a person’s spirit and/or where they are coming from – and/or why they are saying what they are saying. A forum, such as this one, sometimes makes it difficult to execute communication well.

    The better the communicators know one another, the better the communication usually is as they better understand the person and background of each other. It seems obvious from your posts that you’ve had a number of interchanges with Andrew Horton and better understand his communication.

    Outside of that, however, one can only deal with a communication as it is given out. Perhaps, some who post here should {{spend more time honing their communications}} before they post them rather than just {{rattling off the first things which come to their minds}} (and I’m not saying that either of you are guilty of that, but that it is obvious the {{communications of some have this characteristic}}).

    As I understand part of your post to us, you are saying that Andrew H. was saying the same thing as we were. I cannot speak for Robert Glen, but I will speak for myself as I understand what was said. While it appeared that {{Andrew J. H.}} may have been saying some of what I was saying – it is also apparent that {{he was contradicting himself, as well as the Scriptures.}}

    While we can focus on a person’s spirit or intention, there is a good reason why there exists the English proverb, “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Likewise, I’m sure you have encountered (as I have) individuals who were very sincere in their beliefs about God, spirituality, Jesus Christ, and salvations. They may be very sincere with the best of intentions but are [[nonetheless sincerely wrong in their beliefs]]. So, although the right spirit may be there, what is said (or communicated) may be very wrong. I believe this to be the case with Andrew J H’s post.

    He very clearly stated, in reference to 1 John 3:9, “It does not mean, ‘No one who is born of God ‘practices’ (like habitually does it all the time) sin but might commit the occasional sin’ but actually means that no one who is born of God sins at all, i.e. the person (the new creation) who has been born of God cannot sin…”

    He then appealed to the Greek to confirm his inaccurate and errant doctrine. The fact is that an accurate reading of the Greek says just the opposite of his [[erroneous reading and interpretation.]]

    You said, “Putting aside the Greek for the moment, and although you have used knowledge to put others down, I believe that you have both used different words to say the same thing as A.J.H…?”

    [[I’m somewhat puzzled by your dual standard (hypocracy)]] of telling us to put aside the Greek when it was AJH who brought it up. You accuse us while excusing him?????? Very puzzling indeed.

    Also, I did not bring correct understanding of the Greek “to put others down.” Rather, it was as I stated – to bring reproof and correction to erroneous teaching. I was not putting HIM down – but rather I was challenging his doctrine compared to Scripture and its correct interpretation. Why is it that those professing Christ in these days have no problem spouting off all kinds of nonsense which can lead others astray, but then brissle when correction is brought in the love of Christ with the hope that those corrected will learn and grow in the image of Christ?

    It does Christ no honour when [[those professing His name spout off erroneous doctrine ]]and base it on a [[superficial knowledge]] of the Scriptures [[demonstrating their ignorance of such]]. There are [[unsaved in the world who are better educated in such things]], who reject the claim of Christians because of the ignorant claims which some Christians make.

    It is one thing to have the claims of Christ rejected because “the preaching of the cross is foolishness” to them. It is quite another when Christians manufacture stumblingblocks due to their [[ignorance and/or stupidly, and/or gullibility, and/or lack of wisdom.]]

    Also, you said, “He [Christ] doesn’t need our knowledge, . . .” You’re right! How can He who is all-knowing NEED our knowledge? We need His. [[The thing you fail to realize in your argument]] is that one way a person can better come to His understanding is to fully understand what the the Holy Spirit’s original inspiration meant to the people for whom it was written. This includes gaining knowledge of cultures, customs, and the original languages, as well as a general indepth knowledge of the Scriptures to help gain understanding in context.

    I can fully understand that many believers cannot (for one reason or another) be able to gain indepth knowledge in such things. I believe that is one reason why Christ has appointed teachers as a vital and important role in bringing believers to maturity in Christ and helping them to gain excellence in the ministry He has called them to.

    Those who reject such teaching often are insistent on [[remaining in their ignorance]] (and it is not uncommon for them to be proud of it). And yes, I did read GaryB’s post on his experience with a so-called Greek scholar. This only proves that ANYONE can twist the Scriptures for their own ends. In contrast, however, there does exist teaching, from mature evangelical brothers and sisters, which is sound and lines up with the truth (not only the truth of the Scriptures, but also the truth of the original languages, cultures, customs, etc.). If you compare GaryB’s teacher with the ones of which I speak, GaryB’s is obviously aberrant.

    You argue that. “Lord Jesus called lowly, uneducated men to follow Him, as His disciples.” I would suggest that your argument is a twisting of fact in an attempt to support your thinking. The truth is that Christ’s disciples were not uneducated. Each Jewish boy was trained in the Hebrew Scriptures, which also ” . . .consisted of reading, writing, and perhaps the elements of arithmetic. Schooling began at the age of six or seven. Before this age Jewish fathers were accustomed to teach their sons the Shema (Dt 6:4), certain proverbs, and certain verses from the Psalms. In school the children sat on the ground, and repeated the words of the lesson after the master until they knew it. Great attention was paid to pronunciation and learning by heart. The principal study was the Law, of which Leviticus was taken first, as containing the information about legal observances most necessary for a boy approaching manhood to know. The boys were very anxious to read well, because the best readers were allowed to read the lessons from the Law in the synagogue services. (A Commentary on the Holy Bible: The One Volume Bible Commentary – J.R. Dummelow – Copyright, 1908, 1909). The reason the disciples were referred to as “unlearned and ignorant men” by the snobbish Jewish leaders (Acts 4:13) likely was because they had not had the training of the rabbinical schools that these leaders had. It might be today’s equivalent of one with a PhD referring to a high school or college graduate as “ignorant and unlearned,” merely because they didn’t have the same level of education.

    Your argument also ignores the fact that the Apostle Paul had the educational equivalent of today’s PhD, who appeared to have Greek as well as Hebrew education, and who was used of God to write the bulk of the New Testament. By the way, Paul was also called to be a disciple of Christ, though not “uneducated” (as per your description).

    Also, you argue “Greek mindset” vs. the “Hebrew mindset.” While it is true there was a different paradigm or philosophical basis between Greek and Hebrew thinking/philosophy, such information does not apply to your argument. It is ludicrous to presume such a contrast exists merely because the bulk of the NT was written in Greek. It is also erroneous to assume that the “Hebrew mindset” is God’s mindset. The Pharisees who opposed and crucified Christ had a “Hebrew mindset,” yet they were opposed to God. Paul, having Greek education and writing his epistles in Greek was not espousing Greek philosophy, thinking, or mindset – but rather God’s. So, just because Greek was the original language used to write the NT, it does not mean that it presents a “Greek mindset.” Likewise, the proper understanding of the NT Greek does not mean one thinks from a “Greek mindset.”

    The better one can know and understand God and His communications to us, the better one can (to use your words), “love, worship and obey Him, learn to walk in His favour, to trust God, to walk in His Spirit.” After all, eternal life is to KNOW the Father and the Son (John 17:3). The Greek word for “know” means “to know intimately.”

    To use an analogy, the better I “know” my wife, the better I can love and serve her. Likewise, the better I know God, the better I can love, worship, follow, and serve Him. The better I know and understand His communication, the better I can do these things. The study of the original languages, customs, cultures, etc. have greatly aided in the pursuit of knowing Him. Just to preculde those arguing that one needs the Holy Spirit to understand these things – I also have not only been born and baptized in the Holy Spirit, but also seek to continually be filled, walk in, and learn from the Holy Spirit. My studies have augmented His teaching and understanding. I urge you to read all of my original post on 1 John 3:9 and note the directing of the Holy Spirit to teach me truth by understanding the Greek.

    I trust this communication is sufficiently adequate for[ [the readers]] to understand. If not, I will attempt to communicate more clearly, should you request it.

    May our Lord continue to grant us a full outpouring of His Grace to increase in the knowledge of Him, His ways, and His Word.

    God bless,

  335. Wayne you have been very clear on the issues you have addressed. Thanks & well done. Folk need to read them over a few times & hear what you have said. It will help them. One can be a little quick to respond without giving enough thought to what has been said
    The Bible is a VERY smartly written book. It’s stories, when told can bring the illiterate to Christ & growth in Him. It challenges the thinking & spiritual understanding of the most astute, educated & intelligent of men. It will confuse the arrogant & selfish. It is spiritually understood 1Cor 2 and spiritually discerned by reason of use Heb 5. Thats why there is so much “religious” arguing. It comes down to a spiritual issue. The Lord Jesus came to give us life & we’ve nailed it down to a theory of salvation, that’s why we argue Calvinism & Armenianism & 1000 other things. Salvation is a life, not a theory, one lives ones salvation & God will keep it. Speak against education & you reveal your ignorance.
    the wisdom & understanding in the Psalms esp Ps 119 & Proverbs is Gods wisdom, not our carnal “common sense”. It ties in with the 2 scriptures I mentioned. It’s spiritual, revealed to one by the Lord as you live His life. Want to know Gods grace? then choose to live like God says & you will EXPERIENCE grace, God’s power/favor in you, or one can just argue the theory & not experience the very thing we argue about.
    Andrew S. made a post a few weeks ago called Others may, you cannot. Read it again & believe it. It’s excellent. It takes Gods grace to live like that. The rest is just talk.
    Be Blessed

  336. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013

    Ian, so when 21 groups of scholars translate the ancient Greek into English and they are divided 12-9 as to whether to use a verb tense referring to practice or being; what do you do? You certainly don’t use disrespectful words that debase one’s theology on petty issues. And to adamantly take one side or the other over 1 John 3.9 is childish. This is a great example of the debates that the Paul urged the Corinthians to abandon.

    I have the Holy Spirit replacement for my old man who has died. It does not sin ever. My work is to bring that reality into my soul. Therefore, I have no problem if one part of I John seems to contradict another, it seems to adequately describe my personal experience.

    Speak against education (no wisdom) & you reveal your ignorance. Jesus’ spoke against the PHDers of the Sanhedrin and it got Him killed.

  337. Lightning Storm Mar 19th 2013

    Why did Jesus have to wait until He was 30 to begin His earthly ministry?

    Where was Paul for 14 years after his born again experience?

    Did Jesus claim to be a carpenter, or a son of a carpenter?

    Why was Jesus called a Rabbi? Did Jesus deny that He was a Rabbi?

    What was necessary for Jewish boys to LEGALLY become a Rabbi in those days?

    Remember that Jesus FULFILLED ALL THE LAW so that the Legalists could find NO FAULT IN HIM.

  338. The truth shall set you free…

    The Truth shall set you free…

    Have we been set free by ‘the truth’ which we are believing?

    Are we experiencing “righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”?

    If the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed…

    It is for freedom that Christ set us free, stand firm therefore and do not let yourselves be burdened again with a yoke of slavery…

    God has made a way for us to live in freedom…

    Not in condemnation…

    What is freedom?

    Freedom is the Presence of the Holy Spirit living within us…

    Literally living through us…

    We can do nothing…

    Even our new self (which is perfect) cannot do anything…

    Apart from Me you can do nothing…

    As Jesus said…

    People have a form of godliness but deny its true power…

    The True Power of Godliness is the Holy Spirit…

    He is the only One able to live the Christian life through us…

    He is the One who practically transforms us – our entire beings into His Image…

    The Image of Jesus Christ…

    That is His Job…

    That is why He was sent to us…

    He is God – and where He is in control there is Liberty…

    Liberty meaning that we are not under the control of sin…

    In every area where the Holy Spirit is in control of us we are not under the control of sin…

    Do we want this?

    Do we want to experience this liberty from being controlled by sin?

    Yield yourself to the Holy Spirit…

    We must yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit…

    The body of this death which Paul describes is a decaying corpse strapped to the back of a criminal on death row in Roman times – it symbolized that that criminal was about to die…

    We have sin within us as a decaying corpse strapped to our backs symbolising that we – the decaying corpse – are about to die, but our new man is renewed – grows stronger and stronger – day by day – as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to our new man in our innermost being…

    The Lord does this…

    I have experienced this…

    This is the way I live…

    I experience the Holy Spirit living through me…

    Yes, there is still sin within me, I see that too, but it is yielded to Him and as it sits on the Altar He burns it away…

    He has a timetable for our lives…

    And He is Faithful…

    He has defined us as Saints…

    Those who have been born of God…

    He has provided for us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him and He gives us the revelation that we need to understand His truth and as He does we are practically set free…

    Do we want to be practically set free?

    Surrender to the Holy Spirit…

    Now on the last day, the great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet [given], because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:37-39 NASB)

    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17 NASB)

    For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. (John 3:34 NASB)

    May the Blood cover us all…

    Love in the Lord,


  339. Watchful

    Enjoyed your comment, it was one of the few that did not consist of a 500 page documentary. 8)


  340. JORGEDELASELVA: Thank you, dear brother for your reply and for the spirit I sense in which you wrote it. Thank you for challenging me to read my post again with your implied commentary. I’m not sure I would have taken the time to count the number of words (LOL), but I thank you for the care you took to read and attempt to understand what I have written.

    Also, I thank you for the kind comments you made on the parts which ministered to you.

    I, too, skim longer posts from those whom I recognize often rattle on and on without saying much of anything or who put out reams of nonsense (I don’t say this as a “put-down.” Even in the natural, we allow our babies to babble without saying much of anything. It can even be entertaining. So, I recognize there are those who feel they have something to contribute, but which results in very little contribution – if any at all. These, I usually only skim – especially if they are long).

    I have done as you have suggested and re-read your repost of my post with the areas you have considered “caustic.” As I’ve re-read them several times, my conclusion is that most of them were mere statements of fact. I do realize that certain facts can make people uncomfortable – even angry and vengeful. As followers of Christ, I’m sure you have experienced those who become hostile when the Gospel is presented. I would suggest, however, if you feel animosity because certain facts are presented, you should perhaps ask yourself, before the Lord, why such feelings arise within you.

    I think you are still misunderstanding some of what I said, so I will try to clarify. For example, you seem to think that I (and possibly Roger) was (were) gossiping about AJH. If you look closely at those points I think you’ll see that we were discussing what AJH said in his post, rather than discussing him and/or his character.

    Part of the reason for this site, I assume, is to allow legitimate discussion about the topic(s) posted. I, for one, have been grateful for such and have had the Lord speak to me many times through what others have written here. It is also a forum where the comments can be discussed and commented upon. There have been times where attacks upon one’s person and name-calling have taken place. It’s been my observation, however, when such occurs that our dear brother, Andrew Strom, has been quick to delete those posts.

    Also, when it comes to the issue of “ποιέω” or “poieō” (transliterated – poiei is the 3rd person, indicative, present, active form of poieo) in 1 John 3:9, who is correct should not be determined by majority vote of the English translations you have available to you. Other factors should be brought into play, such as how the word was used amongst Greek-speaking people at the time the book was written. One of the strongest evidences is that John uses the SAME word in 1 John 1:6 and usually the translations which translate 1 John 3:9 as “do, does,” etc. translate 1 John 1:6 as “practice,” etc. Also, those, who are objective experts in the Greek language, recognize that the word carries with it the idea of “something which is done habitually or as a way of life.”

    It does make a great difference how the word is interpreted and understood. You’re likely not aware of it, but one of the major reasons I responded to AJH’s idea was because it was the presentation and understanding of those who promote the heretical doctrine of “sinless perfection” in this life. They use this verse to pridefully attest to their sinless perfection as proof that they are truly born of God. On the flip-side, they heap guilt upon every born-again believer who commits a sin – for if you sin at all this proves you are not really born of God (or so these heretics say).

    While I’m quite sure that AJH did not intend to make it appear that he sided with this heresy, the interpretation he presented was the same interpretation they use to support their heresy. As one who, when younger, struggled with 1 John 3:9, having had some influence by this heretical doctrine, and now being set free from the influence of such heresy, I wanted to nip it’s presentation here in the bud before it caused further presentation of this heresy (as has occured on Andrew S’s sites in the past).

    Once again, thank you for your kind response and challenge. May our Lord richly bless you, brother, as you labour for Him – and may He abundantly pour out upon you the riches of His grace as you continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your brother in Christ,

  341. IAN: Thank you for your kind comments and for your contributions to this site.

    Thank you for bringing some balance to the subject of “knowledge.” Much is said in Scripture about the importance and blessing of knowledge which is submitted to God and directed by His Spirit. As such, it should not be denigrated or belittled. The Spirit and the truth of true and accurate knowledge always work together.

    God bless.

  342. .JORGEDELASELVA: I just re-read your post to Ian and noticed something which didn’t register the first time I read it.

    You said, “And to adamantly take one side or the other over 1 John 3.9 is childish. This is a great example of the debates that the Paul urged the Corinthians to abandon.”

    I believe you are mistaken in your assessment. A correct interpretation re: any Scripture is not “childish,” nor akin to the debates of the Corinthians.

    It is more being obedient to God’s directive to believers “to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 3). In the Greek, the word for “contend earnestly” also carries with it the idea of “struggle” or “fight.” The context is to faithfully stand for, and present the truth, in the face of heresy and the twisting of the Gospel and God’s grace.

    God bless,

  343. watchful Mar 19th 2013

    Lightning Storm, there was no sarcasm with my post in case it came across that way.

    It is sad though isn’t it that to some, knowledge is power….over their fellow man. They use it to beat their fellow servants with, instead of letting it renew their mind and conform them to the image and likeness of our risen Lord, and that dismays me……..this is the spirit of Jezebel in her high tower looking down, which reigns in the churches…power, control, spiritual elitism, intimidation. I’m so grateful to be out of it. But we all still need to be on our guard, we all have the same carnal nature with the same potential and tendencies to pride and every nasty thing.

  344. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013

    Mr LStorm oops, sorry maybe it is Mrs LStorm,
    Many times I have worked 12 hour days and more and wondered if Jesus in His humanity experienced first hand the responsibility of raising a family. Of course the Bible doesn’t tell us that He did, but I can dream a little.

    Mark 6 tells us that Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters. I would assume that Mary and Joseph had a very dynamic marriage and that perhaps the normal 2 year stair step routine for children was their lot. Perhaps when Jesus was 16 years old the youngest of the 7 children was age 2. It would make sense that the Heavenly Father at this time may have removed Joseph in order that Jesus could experience fathering without actually physically fathering children. By the time Jesus was thirty the youngest of the bunch would have been 16 and well on their way to self sufficiency. At the cross we see Jesus pass off the one family relationship that He was still responsible for when He tells John to behold his new mother.

    If I had to write a book about Jesus’ silent years, this would make more sense to me than going on trips to India and other faraway places. The term carpenter and son of a carpenter would surely apply. That would also surely fit the term of having every temptation that I do.

  345. jorgedelaselva Mar 19th 2013

    Pastor W., FYI, It takes less than one minute to count the words in your post when one copy and pastes into ones word processor. Don’t know if you are Catholic or Protestant or something else, but I would like to know how you fellowship with any of those folk when you would probably would have issues with them that are much larger than I John 3.9. I am sure you would desire to see people who are Christians come to firmer ground in their theology.

    I am glad that perfect theology is not a prerequisite for salvation or for keeping ones salvation, oops GET BACK IN HERE you can of worms. Or predestination or election. Debate, debate.

    Wayne, Would a non believer or a Christian who is run more by the feeling side of their soul look at those caustic words and say they are done out of love? If your soul is controlled by your mind it will probably say yes, I am setting them straight and I am loving them. I am enlightening their minds. I am making them better.

    I well understand the soul that is controlled by the mind, that is my tendency. I have been greatly blessed by a wife whose soul is mainly controlled by her emotions and it has tempered me greatly.

    I think that it is good for one to come to a balance in ones soul between mind, will, and emotion all having significant effect. And that is my prayer for you.


  346. Gordon Mar 19th 2013

    Grace ….is a Keep It Simple term. An invitation to the Gentiles is Grace, a Grace Period an extention of time for God so loved the world. It like The Bank of God extents the time to pay ..obey, yeild, trust, faith, come while you can type time before the Door of Grace closes.

  347. booter Mar 19th 2013

    To: David Markham

    I have ‘done research’ into the ‘false prophets/hyper-grace teachers’ who preach an ‘ear-tickling/politically-correct’ gospel. They have re defined sin (according to what the Holy Bible teaches). So any encouragement or condoning is a given with their messages, if you haven’t heard any hyper-grace teachers spouting falsehoods then you have limited yourself to suit your own Theology.

    You also state that you’ve heard these teachers call their people to ‘repentance’ however they are calling everyone else to ‘repentance’ for their particular sins & actions. So are they ‘repenting’ themselves and holding themselves accountable for their re-interpretation of GOD’s Real Gospel? If not, then they’ve installed themselves as an ‘unquestionable authority’ and mouthpiece for GOD.

    True Repentance is greatly valued ‘under the right conditions of the heart and for the right reasons’ however accountability to the Truth starts at the top (the shepherd) and filters down (to the flock). There are more than enough accounts here to show otherwise. It’s clear that they are twisting the Gospel to accommodate the comfort zone of the people under their teachings.

    The reason for this particular blog is based upon the personal accounts of those who have noted in their Spirits-with the prompting of their conscience that there is something very wrong with the messages coming from certain pulpits. Are you ‘testing the Spirits’ against the Truth and Illumination of GOD’s Word, or are you blindly following a man/a self-proclaimed teacher of GOD’s Truth. JESUS tended HIS sheep, men tend to their sheeple.

    BTW: GOD is ‘Not Angry & Vengeful’ towards Christians in general, however HE does have a problem with HIS children who blatantly disregard HIS Holy Word and follow off on their own tangents/in their own wisdom & pride. GOD’s path and the Christian Walk of Faith is ‘narrow & not the easiest at times’ but it is HIS Way, in opposition to the ‘broad-spectrum & self-serving comfort’ of the way of the world.

    GOD Bless…

  348. chas351 Mar 19th 2013



    We are told to ask for forgiveness EVERDAY for our SIN
    To restore “our” fellowship with God.
    SIN breaks fellowship.
    Sin does NOT alter our Spiritual Position in Christ.
    You are NOT going to lose Salvation if you sin after you are saved.
    BUT there is a barrier that gets erected between you and God.
    We need to overcome by the Blood of Jesus,
    Daily walk in the light.
    “Each Day” repent.
    Plead the Blood of Jesus.
    Repentance and Forgiveness restores Relationship.
    Pray for forgiveness of your debt (sin) ‘everyday’

    Luke 11
    2And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
    ‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
    Your kingdom come.

    3‘Give us “each day” our daily bread 4‘and forgive us our sins, (each day)

    For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
    And lead us not into temptation.’”

    Mathew 18
    21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
    22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

    1John 1:7
    But “IF” we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
    and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

    Rev 12:11
    And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
    and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Mathew 18
    32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Eph 2:6
    And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.



  349. chas351 Mar 19th 2013

    Why I hate religion, but Love Jesus


  350. Richard Savage Mar 19th 2013

    It’s not been possible to contribute to recent discussions – enduring and deep family problems involving children have occupied my time, almost exclusively, for months. However, tonight …

    Roger (NZ) and jorgedelaselva, I am with you in your different approaches.

    Roger (NZ), I quite agree about the three different mindsets; it certainly has been my experience, and, having spent so much time in the company of Jewish people including rabbis, Holocaust survivors, theologians, Messianic Jews and, well, just Jewish people, there is certainly a different mindset. Roger, your short definition, I don’t understand this God, but I will love Him, worship and obey Him anyway, is very apt and shows an uncommon insight. I praise God for the few who understand.

    Until the Gentile church restores the Jewishness of the Gospel (not Hebrew Roots or any other) and fully accepts they are grafted in and not the root, then theirs is no Gospel at all, but an interpretation shifted and modified by a mind set quite unlike that of a Jewish person. Times of the Gentiles is closing down, now might be a good time to get it right.

    As far as language is concerned, isn’t this an expression of culture, an outward and visible sign of ethnic origins and spiritual persuasion, depth and breadth of understanding brought forth into everyday life? To that extent, Greek is far more expansive, descriptive and soulishly expressive than Hebrew. Yet Biblical Hebrew carries a depth of meaning, a word portrays a volume and the Gentile mind has yet to grasp this fact. The language our God chose to reveal Himself to fallen man is Hebrew. The Western Gentile mind requires neat, concise definitions of the Infinite to be lodged in the mind of the finite. I believe our God has ordained such is not to be had, so they are invented; so such definitions are usually contrived to satisfy a soulish longing. Mantras, verses, scriptures to throw at one another. Denominations anyone?

    jorgedelaselva, yes and yes. Pedantry, excessive scholarship and pastor’s controlling spirits are a large problem in the churches. As well as a learned rather than spiritually received understanding of the Bible. And you are right when you say so many young people would not darken the door of a church … such pedantry is not love in Christ, but follow me, I’m have the way, have the truth, my truth I was taught at Bible School or theological college. Christ Jesus is, as the Living Word, the ultimate scholar of the written word. Yet He spoke directly to those who should know, and in parables to those who could not possibly know so much.

    This thread is about Grace. Surely, speaking in terms we may easily understand about an infinite reality, is indeed unmerited favour? For who among us merits this?

    Hyper Grace? What does your spirit within you say? The answer is there, or in a sleepless night.

    Pastor Wayne, way back in June/July last year, we had a contretemps on this forum about church membership/church attendance. I laid out my beliefs and understandings, as one twnety years out of church, and my experiences for you. I said I was audibly spoken to by Jesus of Nazareth with the words, Come out from among them, for what fellowship has light with darkness? I asked you, what would you do? Follow your Saviour Jesus, or a heretical, pastor?

    Considering the Times of the Gentiles is short indeed, care to answer?

  351. Hi Wayne (& Robert),

    The new self (new heart, new spirit, righteous soul) doesn’t sin…

    Sin within me does (which affects any part of me which is not practically yielded to the Lordship of the Holy Spirit)…

    God defines me as a new creation, the Holy Spirit lives in my new creation (the Holy Spirit has been given to me forever)…

    The old has gone, the new has come…

    God has justified me…

    I am the Righteousness of God in Christ (in my new creation)…

    I had nothing to do with this (that which is of the Spirit is spirit)…

    On the flipside “sin within me” is still present, this is practically crucified as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to my innermost being…

    I repent practically sin by sin as He leads me and His Blood cleanses me as His word says in 1 John 1:9…

    But, in a “holis bolis” sort of way, I am already forgiven – as His word says in Colossians – from all my sin – as when I gave my life to Him I repented from sin – I remember this quite clearly as a five year old – and knew that He would “take me up on this” – I still remember this clearly now – in the days to come – which He certainly has…

    I am not pretending that I (sin within me) doesn’t commit sin but I am claiming the victory of the cross and of the new creation that that is not me (my new self) because I see in myself a person who does not want to sin but loves God and loves doing what He says – I see the battle which is described in scripture within me – which assures me that the scripture is true when it says what it says…

    1 John 5:18 and 1 John 3:9 are saying what I am saying them to be saying…

    They are saying that no one (the new creation part of anyone) who has been born of God sins…

    That’s why the evil one cannot touch him – because the Holy Spirit remains with him (the new creation) and the evil one cannot touch him (the new creation)…

    That is a precious truth…

    What does the enemy do with a precious truth?

    He trys to twist it…

    One way is to twist that scripture to mean that no one who is a true Christian will ever commit sin – this is ridiculous and denounced by John in 1 John 1…

    The other way is to twist that scripture to mean that because we can’t sin (in our new creation) that God doesn’t care about any sin which we commit in our body – which is equally as ridiculous…

    Obviously God does care as we see from what Jesus said in Revelation 2 & 3…

    I know when the Holy Spirit gave me revelation on 1 John 5:18 it really encouraged me in my faith…

    It put everything in balance and set me at rest…

    I honestly believe your interpretation of these verses is mistaken…

    I believe that before the Lord…

    Love in the Lord,


  352. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    I believe I understand what you are saying Andrew J., and I agree.

    Our Spirit is sealed and saved in Christ and will go to be with the Lord whenever we pass on.

    Our flesh remains, though we are saved, and continues to sin (even when we try our best not to). Thus, this is why God calls us to crucify the flesh and its desires daily.

    Our flesh is, and always will be, sinful. That is why it will return to dust and Christ will one day give us new bodies after we die.

  353. I’ve given some further thought on our mutual conundrum of what do we do with 1st John 3:9. Our brother Andrew Strom has created this web site and has called it “Revival School.com.” Well then, even though this school is on the world wide internet, it should be considered a class room dedicated to the correct education of all of the guest that grace the site. It is quite apparent that all who come to this internet classroom are given permission within the bounds of common courtesy, to participate in the learning process and express their interpreted thoughts that are seen to be right in their own eyes. But thank goodness even though we may be in error with our own opinions and judgment, nevertheless our gracious Lord ponders the hearts of those who look to Him for saving grace, so as to make a Way of escape from sin’s entanglements with our self centered conceit that is innate to our minds of flesh. If the Spirit of the Lord is with us, then He is our teacher, bringing out the good treasures from the heart of a good man so that we may freely partake of that which God’s Spirit has given to that one person’s expression of the heart. In the Body of Christ Jesus, one man’s giftedness, even a Word of Wisdom from the Holy Spirit of God, becomes part and parcel with the souls who receive it through the inspiration of God’s gift of faith. Have we not all received freely from God? Then why is there such strife? But, whether it is me our you, correction is grievous to those who become stagnant in their own minds with their own peculiar judgment of right and wrong as one defends their position of right or wrong. I repent again, as I will without doubt, need to do it again.

    There are 100 billion neurons with 100 trillion interconnecting dendrites and axons within the brain of the average adult. That brain of the natural man is the core of the individual or his awareness of self. Self, or self awareness never disappears in this earthly life, even with faith in Christ, but what matters in the new creature that is birthed in Christ Jesus, is what a person does with self. Does self remain a servant or slave to our natural selfishness inclinations or does self change and become the servant and Ambassador of Christ Jesus, bearing witness of His Perfect Love for His Father and of His fellow man. The mind of Christ Jesus is not the mind that is centered on self, even though Jesus Christ in His awareness of His oneness with God, He humbled Him-Self to the death of the cross. Father, into Thy Hands I commit My Spirit. So then this True Mind of Christ Jesus is one in obedience to His Father that enables the members of the household of God to be in the Spirit of the victorious Son so as to now cry Abba Father in rejoicing and serviceable thanksgiving.

    Now if I have your attention, then indulge me a little further with my thoughts as they are stretched out in labor today. Which of the 100 billion neurons and trillions of connection that make up our self are instantaneously cut off in salvation, so as to make us oblivious to the awareness of self? God’s Salvation grace in Christ Jesus came by the gift of faith, but the gift of faith did not change all of the grey matter of self. Now then, the Lord did not say in vain to all of His followers:

    If any man will come after me, let him deny himSelf, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for My sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himSelf, or be cast away? Luke 9:23-25

    But I wonder! How many of us of the household of God, are faithful to this calling of daily self denial to the idolatrous sin that can so easily be come us?

    Obviously, we cannot see the spiritual entity of sin, but because of the magnification by the spiritual Decalogue, the moral commandments thereby reveals the law of controlling sin and death within self. Now we know the controlling manifestations or symptoms of the sin that is ultimately destroying us. Paul further states the litany of sinful behavior like this: 

    “Now the works (that is the symptoms of the singularity of idolatrous sin in the flesh) are these; adultery, fornication, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, disputes, sedition, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, and orgies”. All of these individual symptoms ( or works) are manifesting the controlling dictates of the rebellious infection of self serving sin, and all of the manifestations are condemned by the Law of God. Paul continues with: “and things like these, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5 verse 19 thru 23. NASB. The Lord knows them that are His. And, let every one that names the Name of Christ depart from iniquity [wickedness].2nd Timothy 2:19

    Hopefully, this endeavor along with these verses in Galatians brings about the proper fear of God’s holy wrath against sin and are a suitable answer to our impasse with 1st John 3:9. Also Romans 1:28-32 gives virtually the same litany of the works of sin that the believer having come to the knowledge of the Truth would not practice or knowingly perpetrate.However: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:1st John 2:1

    Now, Jesus tells the story of the younger of two sons that we allude to be the prodigal of the two within their father’s household. The younger son asks his father for his inheritance, and in receiving, he took his portion of the estate and squandered it on his own self centered desires. His own self centered sin would eventually find him out, as he wallowed about in the mire of the pig pen, fighting with the pigs over the chewed up corn cobs. When he comes to his senses, he says to himSelf: How many hired servants of my father’s [house] have bread enough and then some, and I perish with hunger. In repentance of the heart, the missing son returns himSelf to his father, and the father seeing him from a distance, runs and embraces his son with compassion. The son confesses his sin and unworthiness, but the father commands his servants to cloth his son in the best of garments, and then the fatted calf was to be sacrificed, with the whole of his household to partake of the feast and to be glad because of a son who was dead, but now in his return is seen as alive, and was lost, but now was found. Luke 15:11-32
    Our merciful God and Father, in His love for mankind, awaits the return of the lost and dead in idolatrous sin, for the sacrifice of His perfect Love that is in His Son is accomplished, and remains open for the return of the prodigals and for all who would be of the household of God. That sacrifice is in God’s New Covenant, established in the sacrificial shed Blood of Jesus Christ alone; and the requirement for return, is repentance, with the provisions of rest being made manifest by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, when He says: This is My Blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins. When received in Holy Communion, that New Covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ, should be received for the renewal of the Lord’s covenant Life in love within the inner heart and spirit of the person of faith, thereby clearing their conscience, and repairing the breached relationship with God. It is written by John: If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, then we have fellowship (communion) one with another, and the Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 6 thru 10.)
    We can do nothing apart from Christ Jesus our Righteousness, and I would venture to say that we can do nothing apart from the members of His Body of faithful believers. For not only are we members of His Body, but we are each members one of another within His Body. Paul writes to us “For as often as you eat This Bread, and drink [from] This Cup, you do show the Lord’s death till He comes [again]. 1st Corinthian 11:26 God has been most gracious to call us redeemed sinners to His Covenant Table of Remembrance where through His Spirit, He gives us the right to dine with Him and to be refreshed in His Spirit of Life. But perhaps in the remembrance of His death till the Lord come again, we might be mindful when we eat of the Bread of Life that we, in our self righteous sins, were the cause of His death. For Jesus, Who did not commit sin was made by God to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. see 2nd Corinthians 5:21.
    Robert Glenn

  354. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Heavenly Father – I thank you for your Son, Christ Jesus, and I thank you for every member of His Body that is represented here.

    I thank you for the giftings and abilities that you give to each member, distributed by the Holy Spirit as He determines the need.

    From every walk of life, from every level of education, from every different set of circumstances – we come together to share our testimonies and experiences of your involvement in our individual lives.

    May your name be glorified, may your name be praised, may your truth be revealed in your way, in your timing, and in your perfect will.

    May all here know your peace, presence, mercy, grace and truth – and may we all share in your love, these things I pray in the name of Christ Jesus, our risen Lord, Saviour and King.

  355. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    Amen, Roger…..I pray grace and peace and the love and blessing of God to you all……..if it were possible I would want to pass bread and wine and share it here with everyone right now……Bless your people Father….lead us into all truth, I pray. We owe you so much Lord, thank you………….

    For your information, currently I am regularly attending a church/denomination with which I have a number of theological’doctrinal differences. However, the congregation loves the Lord and follow Him as best they can. The Lord has brought put my wife and I there for His purposes, which I won’t get into at this time. We enjoy good fellowship with these dear brothers and sisters.

    The theological/doctrinal differences are not of the sort which had the potential spiritual damage which your inaccurate interpretation of 1 John 3:9 has. I’ve already explained the heretical group which use your interpretation as a keystone for their beliefs, so I won’t go into them again.

    As far as emotions go, I am probably more emotional than my wife. However, true love is much, much, much more than mere emotion. While that outlook is that of sinful man, it is not the perspective of God’s love. God’s love is a decision of the mind to love someone regardless of how they respond.

    I believe that love has been at the root of my efforts to keep my brothers and sisters from the heresy of “sinless perfection” (as described earlier). Because they reject it or accuse me of caustic words, or do whatever else they want makes no matter to me. I have been faithful to the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and the love of God.

    I’m sure the Pharisees thought that Christ’s woes and name-calling of them (vipers and white-washed tombs) were caustic accusations. I wonder what Peter thought of His Master calling him, “Satan” and telling him his thoughts were of men and not of God. By the standards you set in your last post, would you also make the same accusations of Christ?

    As far as proper theology and one’s relationship with Christ goes, I have known those who were turned from Christ to a Pharisaic religion due to the wrong interpretation you gave to 1 John 3:9. So, yes, proper (or improper) theology or doctrine can definitely affect one’s relationship with Christ. Even the Apostle Paul recognized that some false teachers of his time had turned believers away from the truth with their false teachings.

    God bless,

  357. ANDREW J. HORTON: One can also believe the moon is made of blue cheese. That doesn’t make his belief correct. Likewise one can be very sincere in his belief – and be sincerely wrong.

    The Word of God is the ONLY objective standard one can go by. It’s accurate interpretaion assures one that such a standard is sure and trustworthy.

    I’m truly happy for you that the Holy Spirit gave you assurance from 1 John 5:8 – and I am not questioning what He revealed to you about that verse. Your interpretation of 1 John 3:9, however, holds no water from any objective source.

    I will not try any further to teach a mind/spirit which does not want to receive solid teaching.

    God bless,

  358. RICHARD SAVAGE: I don’t recall your question – although I do remember that Andrew Strom closed off the discussion before I had opportunity to say all I wanted to say on that subject.

    I will take time to give you an answer and trust that you have asked the question in honour and honesty.

    If the church you were a part of was “darkness” then it was right for you to come out of it.

    However, you violate the intention, teaching, and examples of Scripture to continue to not be part of a local fellowship of believers. Christ instituted, designed, and rules over His Church. His design is that it be made up of local “churches” or bodies of believers which gather together on a regular basis for His purposes. Those who believe that one can belong to Christ, as the Head, but deliberately cut themselves off from the Body which is also His deceive themselves and severely limit what Christ can do in and through them.

    At this time I’m not prepared to go into details on this, but I have given you an answer as you have requested.

    God bless,

  359. Spot on Wayne. Folks object to education and then involve themselves in debate that requires education. I said before that the Gospel is for the simplest uneducated & for the “spiritual Einestines” 🙂 of this world, but they aught not debate, but respect one anothers positions & recognize their own position. Obviously knowledge must/should go with & result in spiritual maturity, fruit, discernment etc etc, from which the “uneducated” are not excluded. Being “uneducated” does have a disadvantage in the body of Christ, thats why were to “Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth
    If you want to grow in God doctrine is crucial as a starting point, like a map for directions.
    After 45 years in 4 different churches & in leadership assisting pastoring a for few years, I am the greatest critic of the church but it is my great love for all its imperfections. I pray daily for pastors. It drives me insane sometimes & blesses me hugely others. (Like my family :))
    The Church is Gods plan A. Love it like He does. Pray for it & Bless it daily, because cursing it (speaking bad) & the pastors will do you harm & will not help with the problems you all mention.
    I do not say one must not point out wrongs, this must happen, the critical issue is YOUR MOTIVE, & is your saying it of any help to the listener or church or pastor.
    Has anyone out there got a great story about a pastor or church?
    Be Blessed everyone

  360. Amen Jonathan,

    What you are calling “the flesh” I believe is what I’m calling “sin within me”… 🙂

    I don’t know whether “sin within me” will return to dust when I die (maybe you’ve been given insight on that that I haven’t) but I do know that it won’t enter heaven…

    For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” (Colossians 3:3-4 NIV)

    I believe that any remains of the deeds of “sin within me” will be burnt up in the fire before we (those who have been born of God) enter heaven…

    According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB)

    Praise You Jesus… 🙂

  361. I made a mistake. It should read:
    If you want to be of greater use as a workman, education is crucial.
    NOT, “if you want to grow” as I said. We can all grow in God, educated or not.
    As can be seen, Waynes education is helpful to us if we want to listen.

  362. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    IAN – Yes, I have a great story about a Church and the Pastor – it is the church that I am a part of, I praise and thank our Heavenly Father, Almighty God, that I’m a member.

    It has many members, each one born-again by the Holy Spirit, and each member has gifts and callings distributed by the Holy Spirit, as He wills, and as He see’s the need.

    We have one head Pastor, and one head Teacher, although other members are appointed as teachers and elders – as the head Pastor calls and prepares them for their duties. There are other roles for members too, as described in scripture. The members recognise those who are called into these roles, there is a spiritual witness to their appointment, we all fully trust the head Pastor to make no mistakes – He hasn’t yet 🙂

    We meet in small groups, sometimes only two, sometimes many more – yet never have we all met in one place at the same time – not physically, – although I believe all members of the Church I am a member of, are united through the Holy Spirit.

    We have been promised by the head Pastor that we will, one day, all meet together – I look forward to that day. I can’t describe what that meeting will be like, I have a basic idea, but the joy and gratitude, that each member will feel on that occasion is beyond my ability to describe.

    We have no main building as such, not yet – too many members 🙂 but I know that many members do meet together, on a daily basis – some in houses, some on the street, others talk by phone, others by email – there are a number who contribute to this blog, most don’t – there are just too many Church members to all contribute here..

    I won’t leave this Church, and I encourage others to join – once others have been introduced to the head Pastor, and heard His teachings – most don’t want to leave either.

    I have heard people say that you won’t find a perfect Church this side of Heaven – well, all I can say is that this is as close as it gets – the members aren’t perfect, but we trust the head Pastor and the head Teacher, to keep on discipling the members – they know how best to reach and teach each member.

    The head Pastor is perfect, as is the head Teacher, – and both know our Heavenly Father personally.

    I could say a lot more, but I’ll stop here as others may want to add their story..?

    In Christ Jesus,

  363. Acts 4:13
    Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

    Being with Jesus is more important then being educated. Our society puts to much stress on education, and the church world has this same mindset.

    Learning to move in the Spirit and walk with Jesus you do not get from books.


  364. fabakary Mar 20th 2013

    Ian let me also add about one pastor, I know in a measure. And I think all here or most that visits this site knows him in a measure including you. This man is a Chief Pastors of many pastors under him. He is also the head of many members. All this members He places them under different circumstance, to teach them his ways. But the members themselves grow in his knowledge to know themselves and other members. Because in knowing themselves and recognizing other members, is a great power w which even the chief enemy cannot stand. But the members are living in a world of spiritual fogs, limited knowledge, unclearness and this sometimes makes it hard for them to recognize one another. Because of such limited issue the Chief Master has given each member a great weapon, which will keep his members from the error of condemning other of his members. And this weapon is Love. They are to use this weapon every time , they come across with anyone, whether they recognize such as a member or not , this weapon call Love will keep them free from the sin of prejudice which comes as a results of limited lack of knowledge of the true knowledge of the state of things. It is a common temptation of many of his members, to condemn other members that call the name of the chief pastor in power, just because they do not follow them or part of their company. It is all because they believe such are not part of the body. But it is no where spoken by the chief pastor or the head that His members are known by where they go or not but by who they are in him regardless of whether they go or not to this or that place. To his members some go to building, some do not, some stay at home, other do this or that etc but one of the greatest temptation is to judge who and who is not part of his body by this things. It is becoming a cross now a days not to be tempted to not join others who judge things by outward appearance because in most cases, it makes one feel spiritual, and high above the other group.

  365. Marilyn Crow Mar 20th 2013

    Amen & so true Roger & Fabakary.
    Am just reading on the sidelines with this one but will get back into the frey on other blogs.

    All the best in the Lord to everyone, Marilyn C.

  366. fabakary Mar 20th 2013

    God blessing be with you to Marilyn Crow, and glad to hear from you Again. Stay blessed

  367. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    By their fruits you will know them…….amen Roger, and amen fabakery to Love…….being lambs and not rams.

    The church I’m a part of has many members with manifold giftings, and only one Head who is Christ, we are all sitting down together while Christ does the teaching/preaching/prophesying, etc, first through one, then through another in simplicity, and through babes He has especially ordained praise………….because it’s the Father’s desire to display His manifold wisdom through the church…not one-fold, not five-fold, but mani-fold.

    1Cr 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done SO THAT THE CHURCH MAY BE BUILT UP.

    So maybe, just maybe, this has to do with why the church hasn’t been built up….why both pew-sitter and the king they demand to rule over them don’t mature and both FALL…..into a ditch. Now somebody tell me we aren’t seeing an awful lot of FALLING these days……because it’s not happening for no reason..

  368. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    (There is a computer virus going around, and now my computer is sending out e-mails automatically to people on my contact list….if anyone reading this receives a link via e-mail sent apparently by me please don’t open it……it seems to be sending just a link with no other writing or explanation. (Name is Therese and email is isrenderall.) My apologies to anybody who has received this thing…..I’m looking into getting rid of the virus.)

  369. Dear Wayne,

    Our zealous brother in the Lord, Andrew, actually mentioned 1st John 5 verse 18. Perhaps you inadvetainly left off the number “1” when you wrote:

    I’m truly happy for you that the Holy Spirit gave you assurance from 1 John 5:8

    I have thought previously about bring up some of my written thoughts dealing with that scripture verse, and seeing that 1 John 5:8 has come to our attention, perhaps you as well as others would look in to the implied depths of the presented argument.

    The Fountain of Living Water.
    Apart from the controversy, in what is called the Johannine Comma, the following verse in 1st John 5 would stand as correct for our edification. For there are Three Witnesses, the Spirit and the Water and the Blood , and They are One. (1st John 5 verse 7 thru 8.) In spite of the given manuscript problems, this would be a more correct rendering of the scripture, without the inserted word “agree” or “agreement”. The Greek translation for the word “agree” is symphōneō Strong’s G4856. This Greek word, symphōneō, being translated in English to “agree”, is recorded seven times in six separate verses in the Greek concordance for the KJV bible, but is not found in the Greek transcript of 1st John 5 verses 7 thru 8. The Greek script reads as “οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν”, which has the translated meaning of “the three are in the one”. The isolated Greek Word in this portion of the script is actually “eisi – εισιν” which means “are” one, and is the same exact connotation as “the Three are in the One”.

    God’s Holy Spirit is not divided or separated from the Water and the Blood that flowed from Jesus Christ, for they are One Essence of the One Holy Life of the Son of Man poured out for the salvation of sinful mankind. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, Father, into Thy Hands I commend My spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost. (Luke 23 verse 46.) As an obedient Son, having accomplished the will of His Father God Almighty, the crucified Jesus Christ released His Spirit, as the representative Son of Man, into the keeping of the Spiritual Will of His Father. Now in the finished Deed, the Spirit of the Son of Man, Jesus Christ is in absolute covenant and of One essence with the One Holy Spirit of God Almighty. So then, the spiritual significant of the Three Witnesses of the Spirit, the Water and the Blood, as being One Essence (homooúsios), goes beyond mere conversational agreement, but speaks singularly of the spiritual constancy of the Word of God given for the Salvation for the lost of mankind. The One Holy Spirit of the Father and the resurrected Son, is the Spiritual Fountain of Living Water being poured out upon earthen vessels that are seeking its Life giving Source in God.

    Being One with the Water and the Blood of Jesus Christ, it is the One Holy Spirit of the Father and the Son, Who is both the Baptizer and the Fountain of Serum Water being poured out upon repentant believers for the cleansing new Life that flows from the Fountain of Life in Christ Jesus, the Son of Man, and the Son of God. And in Communion with His people, the One Spirit of the Lord is the mediating High Priest of His New Covenant Blood that sanctifies the repentant sinners within His Body of believers.  So then, the witness of the Spirit of the Fountain of Living Water began in our initial Baptism into the cleansing Serum Water of the Life of Jesus Christ, and continues with the witness of the Spirit of the Water and the Blood in Holy Communion. Perhaps when the called out ones begin to humble themselves under the Witness of the Word of God and honor His New Blood Covenant among themselves, then the Holy Spirit of God will pour out upon the parched earthen vessels His refreshing Waters from the Well Spring that never runs dry.

    Robert Glenn

  370. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    GaryB, I meant to “amen” your post as well…a gem.

  371. Robert Mar 20th 2013


    I do have to compliment the way you wrote about your Pastor and Teacher.

    AHHHH! We must have the same one, or so it seems.

    Mine , I can only humble myself to as I learn so much each and every day, as HIS principles and penetrate my heart to allow me to grow AS HE WANTS not the way others presume I should grow.

    My teacher , wow, what can I say about HIM. I mean I can look back just several years ago, when I was being led astray to join all these groups and “their” teachers and pastors , and He would whisper “come away unto ME” and I will not lead you astray.

    In time, I learned to trust HIM and yearn and call out to HIM as He led me away Unto HIM.

    I did gleen from the groups, churches, even fellowship that I had associated myself w/ because I “thought” that was the way I HAD TO GO. I mean, I was told that over and over again that I HAD to be in a church building and fellowshipping w/ folks that truly had not the desires that I had which was to PLEASE THIS WONDERFUL PASTOR and TEACHER.

    I could only walk away from this building and the people in it that so wanted everything else but HE. I mean, they portrayed a great pretense and even called themselves followers of the Pastor, allowing the teacher to teach them , when it was “conveinent ” for them. But when the Teacher whispered ever so softly to them, that this was not the correct teaching or coarse to take, so many of them , matter of fact, none of them wanted to really know the truth. It was as if they were all blinded and only wanted what they wanted when they wanted it. Oh, they would talk a good talk, but when it came walking the truth , they could not.

    Finally one day, our Pastor told us to walk away, allow HIS TEACHER to teach and to show us the things of HIM and that HE would place those in front of us, when it was HIS TIMING. It was all part of HIS GAME PLAN to allow us to loose all of that preconceived notions and teachings that others taught. Oh don’t get me wrong, there were some that we kept, but only the ones that this one Pastor and HIS TEACHER wanted us to keep. We truly laid everything , including our “thinking” our learning, our exposure to all other churches and including the worldwide school knowledge that we had.

    Now that was a task. One that I thought, but “YOU allowed us ” to learn all this and now I am to let go of it?

    In the end, it was not that HE wanted ALL to be removed from my memory, ONLY THAT WHICH was not totally of HIM. He dusted off some things but completely threw out other things and my minds bookshelves became empty — not in a “bad” way , believe me, but in a way that only this one Pastor and Teacher could do what they truly needed me to do. OBEY HIM and THE TEACHER.

    I hope others will be able to meet this teacher and Pastor.

    Because once you do, you can go to other groups, or churches, that HE places you in, for HIS REASONS, and it just might be for a season (of a week or 1 -2 yrs) but during that time you will know what an awesome Pastor and Teacher they were, because NOTHING else will do, when others try to “imitate” HIS TRUTH and twist or sidestep HIS TEACHINGS.

    By the way, is your Pastor ‘s name Jesus Christ, The only Son of God, Savior and REDEEMER? AND is your Teacher, – The Person of the HOLY SPIRIT, the ONE that this great Pastor said would come and teach all to us?

    I hope so, because that is who mine is , and if HE IS, I know that no one will ever be able to replace these two. Others might try, or others might think they know it all, or know some by books, or what ever method , BUT the truth is , until you bow down and sit at the feet of this particular Pastor,—— You will never know , because having a relationship w/ HIM and HIS TEACHER is the most wonderful thing —— THIS SIDE OF HEAVEN.!!!

    Many blessings to all,
    and I hope you will meet this awesome Pastor and HIS TEACHER , too.

  372. ROBERT GLENN: Yes, dear brother, I did make an error when typing the verse referred to by our brother, Andrew J. Horton. I should have typed 1 John 5:18. Thank you for helping to correct this mistake.

    As far as your other query regarding 1 John 5:8, I really can’t afford the time and effort at the present time to do as you have asked. Also, it would take the current discussions down a path different than what was really intended by this site.

    Suffice it to say, that I don’t believe the manuscript evidence supports the last half of verse 7 and the first half of verse 8 as being part of the original autograph.

    Even so, the truth they present can certainly be found and supported by other Scriptures which we know were part of the original autographs.

    We know the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are three personalities within one God and they do agree with each other. We have record about the living water which Christ gives, and the cleansing and washing of water (baptism – see Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:20,21; water of the Word -see Ephesians 5:26; infilling and work of the Holy Spirit – see John 7:37-39). We certainly have much written about both the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Son, and their various roles, works, and harmony with each other.

    So, even if those passages in question were put into the KJV by its translaters, but the manuscript evidence shows it had been inserted after the original autograph was written by someone else, and we take it out of the canon of Scripture, it really is not destroying or taking away from what Scripture says in other places.

    I’m sure this isn’t the answer you were expecting, but it is the best I can do at this time. If you require a more indepth study on this, may I suggest that we could enter into discussion either via my website: http://www.graceandtruthministries.ca or by contacting me personally by email at: [email protected].

    God bless, brother.

  373. Thank you Robert. No, this earth is not heaven, Just read all the headlines. But as I take your advice, I know just a tage of what Heaven will be like. It’s just a ‘taste’ and is it good. Thank you Lord for being my Pastor, and your Holy Spirit for being my Teacher. Words can always deceive you; but Truth will always retrieve you; thank you Holy Spirit.

    Robert, you know what? How people will put man’s microscope to dissect His perfect Words of Truth to search His words for flaws, There are none. They do not question the ‘elite’ who are trying to persuede doctrines that please man. His doctrine is perfect. Man just keeps trying to explain it and improve it. That can never be done. He had it all thought out before He created man. In faith I trust and love Him. Without obedience you are toast.

  374. He that doeth sin, is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. In this thing the Son of God appeared, that he undo the works of the devil.

    9 Each man that is born of God, doeth not sin; for the seed of God dwelleth in him, and he may not do sin [and he may not sin], for he is born of God.

    10 In this thing the sons of God be known, and the sons of the fiend. Each man that is not just, is not of God, and he that loveth not his brother [and he that loveth not his brother, is not of God].

    Okay……………………lesson of the day
    As was already known in my spirit
    this text was meant to say THEY CANT SIN, THEY MAY NOT SIN
    they SOULDNT SIN………..
    Tis wycliff version. In my spirit i have known this is what it meant.
    NOTE……………..MAY NOT, means they should NOT
    and so does cant.
    LIKE I CANT reach the counter top.
    SAINTS…………………..we MUST NOT SIN.
    Too many taking way too much out of text to apply
    it to a different grace.

  375. He that doith synne, is of the deuel; for the deuel synneth fro the bigynnyng. In this thing the sone of God apperide, that he vndo the werkis of the deuel.
    9 Ech man that is borun of God, doith not synne; for the seed of God dwellith in hym, and he may not do synne, for he is borun of God.
    10 In this thing the sones of God ben knowun, and the sones of the feend. Ech man that is not iust, is not of God, and he that loueth not his brothir.
    11 For this is the tellyng, that ye herden at the bigynnyng, that ye loue ech othere;
    IS THIS a bit more clear.
    HE MAY NOT SIN………………as in SIN NOT…………………

  376. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Robert Glenn:
    By the way, is your Pastor ‘s name Jesus Christ, The only Son of God, Savior and REDEEMER? AND is your Teacher, – The Person of the HOLY SPIRIT, the ONE that this great Pastor said would come and teach all to us?

    I hope so, because that is who mine is , and if HE IS, I know that no one will ever be able to replace these two.

    Yes Robert – my Pastor is indeed Christ Jesus our risen Lord and King, and my Teacher is indeed the Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit, that Lord Jesus promised would be with us for ever (John 14,15,16)

    In His unfailing love,

  377. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Being with Jesus is more important then being educated. Our society puts to much stress on education, and the church world has this same mindset.

    Learning to move in the Spirit and walk with Jesus you do not get from books.

    May I Amen this too Gary..?

    Knowing about Jesus is one thing – knowing Him, in a personal relationship, is His desire for us all – and the reason that He created us.

    May we ALL know Him, trust in Him, and abide in Him.. 🙂

  378. There was No J in middle english.
    THUS IUST is pronounced JUST
    HE that doith(does it)sin , is of the deuel(devil, the u was pronounced with a v
    Middle english is not hard to understand.
    and the spelling was not universal.
    IF we walk after the flesh , if we continue in sin
    then we lie and do not the truth.
    Saints…………….we must awaken to righteouness
    and live by GRACE. which teaches us to DENY all ungodliness,
    all uncleanliness.
    USE NOT our liberty as a occasion to serve the flesh.
    DONT SIN. How often the early apostels
    warned BELIEVERS to SIN NOT.
    Just follow Christ…………………..
    and live by HIS WORDS, not mens
    and not new interprations which allow ANY to remain in any sin.
    WE are at war against our own flesh daily.
    Some may not warn against the seriousness of error and sin.
    Grace does NOT allow us to sin………………IT KEEPS US FROM
    but rather to bring all thoughts captive to the OBEDIANCE of CHRIST. and CHRIST WAS OBEDIANT.
    IF we follow the SPIRITS unctions
    THEN we are wise…………………if NOT we are in grievious error.
    and GOD will judge all servants.
    We are held to be Obediant unto the SPIRIT
    NOT the flesh. SO when a evil thought comes into your mind
    KILL it , lest you act it out.
    I will warn…………………….as i am LED to warn.
    WE have a BATTLE DAILY………………..
    a battle daily. YET we have all POWER in CHRIST
    to bring all thoughts captive to obedaince.
    BUT when many bring watered down doctrine
    or etc………………IT NEVER sets one free of sin.
    instead they dont SEE the TRUE DANGER of sinning.
    THEY see a walk which dont really end badly for those
    who sin, so long as they call themselves of CHRIST.
    DONT be defeated by warm doctrines which have no real
    sense of urgency to KEEP that body under subjection.

  379. ROGER, i was BLESSED by just hearing you say
    JESUS is our PASTOR………………
    OH yes……………….THE GREAT SHEPARD of the sheep.
    the anchor of our soul, the keeper of our feet.
    and not the carnal reasonings of men who twist scrips
    unto their own destruction.
    FOR they are of the world, they are of the pride of life
    the ambitons of the world.
    They hunger to LOOK good, and get degrees
    to make them LOOK wise. they cling to vainity of titles
    of doctor……………..etc, they desire the eyes of men.
    and thus have fallen from GRACE. which is meant to ONLY GLORIFY GOD, not MEN. Dangerous and decptive thse men are, and come with a understanding of twisted scrips
    which the flesh of men can embrace, for the flesh desires what is of the world, yes these men too appear sensual, caring and loving,but all the while deny TRUE LOVE
    which is JESUS WORDS, and HIS SERMONS.
    the early church did NOT do that. THEY STAYED IN JESUS DOCTRINE…………….but this age……………does not.
    BUT the wisdom of this world is FOOLISHNESS
    THUS let us all BECOME FOOLS to this worlds wisdom.
    and be made WISE in CHRIST.

  380. YES, many CALL themselves OF CHRIST
    but when one denies what HE has said
    HIS WORDS and bring their pastors words
    which contradict JESUS words……….
    THEN they have denied CHRIST.
    FOR whomsover shall DENY HIS WORDS
    WILL BE DENIED at the END.
    HE WARNS about that.
    HE who hears my words and DOES THEM.
    NOT changes them to suit their own lifestyle
    or own justification of how they think or live.
    FOR if while I SEEK to be JUSTIFIED in CHRIST
    I too am found a sinner, is CHRIST Therefore the ministir of sin…………GOD FORBID, for if I, build again the things which i destroyed………………well, I MAKE MYSELF a trangressor
    and that END IS DEATH .
    PREACH OUT against sin, and USE our liberty NOT as a occasion to SERVE the flesh
    but rather as an occasion TO LIVE and WALK as DID CHRIST.
    Preach HIS WHOLESOM WORDS…………….
    we are in the LAST DAYS……………….THIS I KNOW. amen

  381. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    Wow Roger! Haha! I laughed for joy when I read how you described Christ’s complete Church! What a beautiful way to describe it! I will copy and paste that to my notes for sure!

    One day we will have that place where all followers of Jesus can meet in Heaven!

    God bless you!


  382. Vicki Lynn Mar 20th 2013

    Why is it that all Doctor’s in Theology that I know or know of, are in deception, accepting so many of the latest charismatic fads.

    So knowing the Bible well doesn’t appear to help.

    When one thinks they are above deception, they become arrogant in their own beliefs/confidence of the Word.

    Conviction is the most powerful remedy for deception.

    Listening to the still small voice of God’s Spirit with in us.

  383. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    Amen to love Fabakary!

    Dear Andrew J,

    I know what you mean. I just meant that when the flesh returns to dust, that not even the temptation of sin will have any hold over us. Like you said, “sin will not enter Heaven.”

  384. Robert Mar 20th 2013


    I was the one that you quoted. I AM NOT Robert Glen.

    You might know me from ……… but I go on here as Robert.

    blessings my brother, In Christ,

  385. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    I always interpreted 1 John 5:18 as dealing with the SIN nature. Christ came to do away with “SIN.” But we still continue to sin. I make a difference with capital SIN and lower case sin.

    Jesus dealt with the SIN nature and we are saved and thus we do not SIN any more because that is what Jesus got rid of (to those who believe and follow Him). That SIN was the obstacle blocking us from entering into God’s presence. It was the veil that was torn in two.

    However we still sin continually in the flesh as we are tempted to follow after our own selfish desires. There are far too many scriptures that show that Christians sin to prove otherwise.

    This verse initially confused me, but I believe I understand it now.

    Does that make sense?

  386. I was blessed by your comment about the Church Roger, We are blessed, Praise You Jesus, Thank You Father, Thank You Holy Spirit, Thank You Lord, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  387. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Robert – my sincere apologies for my confusion of names.. and thankyou for correcting me 🙂

    There are similarities in our walks – the leading us into places, the bringing us out, the revelation of error, and the stripping away of that error, the refining and purifying of the vessel.

    May you too be blessed my brother..

  388. I won’t go into what the Bible describes as church except to say it’s Gods plan A for His Kingdom here at this time. Coming together in fellowship etc etc. A body, fitted together. The Bride is another issue.

    Don’t exalt ignorance (I don’t use the word unkindly).The Bible is a big book & God requires us to study it, not to remain ignorant. Agabus was a good teacher but still needed more teaching.
    Because some study it more, don’t put them down. What level is study enough?
    Study helps you to become more like Christ & able to help others….teach, a biblical calling, or makes you arrogant like the pharisees. Because some are arrogant takes nothing from learned teachers who love God & are humble any more than unlearned, jealous folk who critisize the learned.
    There is no doubt in my mind God would have us all learned so we know his Word rather than all be ignorant.
    For every learned arrogant person you shiow me I’ll show you ten unlearned, luke warm, go nowhere, do nothing so called christians in & out of Church life, complaining about everything & don’t understand God & His ways because they are too lazy to study & read Gods Word & claim to “walk in the Spirit” & be “led by God who alone is their teacher.
    If anyone is so learned out of the church then please get into one & share your teaching & carry the responsibility & credibility & faithfulness that that teaching requires.
    It’s now nearly midnight here in SA, good night & be Blessed

  389. Roger(NZ)

    I was pressed for time this morning and I quickly read the comments as I walked away from the computer The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, the Apostles were uneducated. I came back and wrote the post.

    Because of being rushed to get to work, I was thinking about your comment and I did not have time to tell you my Pastor is named Jesus Christ as well.

    Was very blessed while reading your comment when it dawned on me what you were speaking of, I was not expecting it. 🙂

    Praise God for His awesome Grace.


  390. Well, brother Ian, it seems you’ve opened another can of worms. Had I known what you were going to ask, I would have warned you that the “out-of-churchers” would take your request as an invitation to come out of the woodwork with their unbalanced presentation of Christ’s Church.

    They are quite happy to claim a part of the universal church, yet reject the necessary participation in a local church which both Christ and His Apostles taught and espoused. Interestingly, much of the basis for their views of the universal Church of Christ are taken from Scripture written to and within the context of the local assembly of believers. Yet, they choose to reject the Biblical commands to be an active part of a local body/assembly of believers meeting together on a regular basis.

    Though they knew what you had asked for, I’m not surprised they gave the responses they did as they likely would be hard-pressed to give an example of what you had asked for.

    So, I will give you several.

    Though he is now almost 83 years old and hasn’t pastored for years, I look to the person I consider to be my mentor and life-long pastor. He pastored the church I was a part of during my teen years, married my wife and I, and dedicated most of my children.

    He had a great influence upon my life and ministry, primarily because he showed in his life and ministry, a love for God and a love for people. Because I spent extra time at the church building, would often show up at odd hours, and had opportunity to spend much time in his home (even sleeping there overnight at times), I got to see much of his life which many in the congregation did not get to see.

    Both he and his wife demonstrated the love of Christ as they reached out and ministered to people – even those who were not part of their congregation. Many was the time I saw tears in his eyes as he wept over those both in and outside of the flock he pastored. His gracious manner (and mannerisms), humility, honesty, transparency, and down-to-earth preaching, teaching, and pastoring created an indelible stamp of his life upon mine. I could truly say of him, that one could follow him as he followed Christ.

    Another pastor I coming to greatly appreciate is the one under whose ministry I have now been sitting under for the last 1-1/2 years.

    Though we differ on significantly on some theological and doctrinal issues and have different church backgrounds, he is my brother in Christ. He also demonstrates a transparency of character, and is publicly not ashamed to share his doubts, shortcomings, and struggles. Nor is he too proud to have others pray with him and for him in those areas.

    Though there is a certain formalism in the church he pastors, he walks faithfully in the truth God has brought him into as he pastors and ministers – and he is not “formal”. He believes that the church should not be so compartmentalized and insists on older children remaining in the main service. He also does his best to incorporate these children and teens into the service as he can. The benefits of this can be seen within the manychildren and youth which are a part of this church as they use their giftings in Christ to be an active part of His Church and the local body of believers.

    He is faithful in preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. He does this even in the face of opposition. In one funeral service he presided over he had one family who got up and left because they were offended by the true preaching of the Gospel.

    While his education can seem to get him tripped up sometimes in his preaching, it has served both him and the gospel well and he does his best to use his education to augment the gifts and ministries God’s given him. While I have bristled at it at times, in patience I have found a blessing even in his manner of preaching.

    I have been part of prayer meetings which this man and his elders regularly hold and have gotten glimpses of his heart, vision, and spirit. They desire the fulness of all Christ has for them – and for the rest of the local body of believers as well.

    The church he pastors is one I never would have chosen to be part of. But God had different designs. The denomination holds doctrines to which I disagree. Their basic doctrine, however, is consistent with historical, evangelical doctrine based on the what the Word of God teaches – and they do their best to live what they believe. The bulk of the congregation truly loves God and each other. There is a transparency and honesty to them and their lives. They regularly pray for one another, support one another, love one another, forgive one another, and forebear with one another – even in the face of disagreements and differences of opinion.

    Are they perfect? NO!

    Do they mirror Christ and a NT Church? As best they know how to do in truth and sincerity.

    Do they lack in some areas? Yes.

    But I would not want to be part of a church that was perfect. When I look at the examples of the Christ’s Church we have in the NT we find it to be made up of local assemblies of believers who were not perfect. There were arguments, disagreements, fightings, envying, vying for power, misuse of God’s gifts and graces, etc., etc.

    Part of the purposes of the local assembly of believers in the NT was for them to learn to love one another as Christ loves us; to grow and mature as they confronted and worked through the problems and clashes; to bring discipline to individuals when church discipline was needed; to seek God’s direction and wisdom corporately for these and other matters; and to have God minister to them and through them via the gifts of the Spirit as they gathered together.

    One of the focuses of my current pastor is the focus of the NT upon the “one anothers” we find in there. I greatly appreciate this focus. It mirrors God’s design for us interacting personally with other believers within the context of a local assembly of believers.

    These things do not negate what others have said about what the NT presents concerning the universal Church of Jesus Christ. It does, however, present a more balanced picture of Christ’s Church and also answers the request you put forth, brother Ian.

    God bless you, my brother.

  391. Brother Ian,

    I thought you might be interested to know I just posted the above post without having read your last post, as you posted it while I was writing mine.

    I thank the Holy Spirit for having you confirm what I was composing as you wrote and posted yours.

    God bless your rest, brother, and refresh you to serve Him with all that is within you tomorrow.

  392. Robert Mar 20th 2013

    Ian, where are you writing from.?

  393. Robert Mar 20th 2013

    “If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord’s will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to assure him that he is not saved. Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so I tell them a lie, pervert the Gospel , insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.”

    – Charles Haddon Spurgeon

  394. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Ian and Wayne,

    I truly do not know anyone, who is a born-again disciple of Lord Jesus, who shuns learning of scripture, or does not desire to know Lord Jesus – (not just about Him, but of Him) – in a personal relationship.

    I have been both in denominational churches, and then ‘called out’ of them by Lord Jesus – and I mean – by Him, not just by my choice..

    Since being out, not only has the Holy Spirit been able to strip away anything not of Himself, and leave room for more of the foundational truths of Almighty God – but, He has also brought other, spiritually mature people (teachers) across my path to share the insights that they have received either from God, through the Holy Spirit, or, through other elders who have also been called out by Lord Jesus. Elder in years as well as spiritual maturity. Some of these are now at home with Lord Jesus – others we still have contact with..

    The ‘calling out’ is not out from fellowship with other Christians – it is a ‘calling into’ the Body of Christ – which is true fellowship with other ‘body members’, wherever they may be placed around the world, and wherever they are placed by God, in groups and gatherings of those who are His children. It is a true uniting in, and through, the Holy Spirit – the fulfilling of Lord Jesus prayer in John 17.

    Ian, you ask: If anyone is so learned out of the church then please get into one & share your teaching & carry the responsibility & credibility & faithfulness that that teaching requires.

    We are in one – the only ‘church’ that God recognises. His Ekklesia (Body of Christ). The members are spread across the world, fellowship together, share with one another – the Holy Spirit brings teachings, prophecies, helpers, healings, elders, any and all gifts and callings as He see’s the need, and to accomplish His will.

    Members of the Body of Christ Jesus don’t shun teachers and other ministries who are raised up by God, appointed by Him, walk in the Spirit, led by the Spirit. However, that same Holy Spirit, – who indwells every born-again child of God – will also give discernment to His children as to who is appointed by God, or ‘self’ appointed.

    Yes – this body of Christ is universal, spread across the world, the members of which are active at a local level, in neighbourhoods, both rurally and in towns and cities, and some will be involved in denominational ‘churches’, but not tied to them. Those chains have been broken by Christ Jesus.

    In His love, and abiding in Him,

  395. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    Randall, that just does makes sense and clears up the confusion to me…..it really does take unction, and it is simple and doesn’t contradict what is written elsewhere, bless you.

  396. watchful Mar 20th 2013

    Amen Roger!

  397. Lightning Storm Mar 20th 2013

    The Apostles were uneducated?

    Every Jewish boy must be educated in the Torah before they turn 12.

    Luke had further education as a DOCTOR.

    Oh…I can’t go into the background of all the Apostles in this post…..but please…..check out which SPIRIT is speaking to you! Read up on the biographies of the Apostles taken from historical writers at the time of the Apostles and Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit would know that the Jewish boys were educated and Jesus went even further in His education to become a Rabbi. Did HE NEED education? NO. But Jesus had to FULFILL THE LAW OF GOD and not be found with ANY FAULT by the JEWS or the ROMANS who ruled Jerusalem.

    Do you assume that because they were FISHERMEN, then they must be uneducated? That is judgmental and prejudicial.

  398. Lightning Storm Mar 20th 2013

    I am still appalled.

    Do you realize that you will MEET FACE TO FACE these people that are recorded in the bible?

    Perhaps they are even able to LISTEN to you speak right now….just like the RICH MAN and Lazarus.


  399. Marilyn Crow Mar 20th 2013

    Pastor Wayne

    Why do you assume that those who do not attend a certain type & format of a public meeting are not relational locally?

    Also it would have been good to read of our Lord to the length you wrote of a person.

    Looking unto Jesus, the author & finisher……..

  400. Lighting storm,

    Read this passage,

    Acts 4:13
    Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were “uneducated and untrained men”, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.


    Dear sister in Christ,

    It is appears it is you making an assumption – that such meetings are to be public and of a certain format.

    If you read carefully what I wrote, I’m reasonbly sure you’ll not find me stating that the regular assembling together by the local body was to be public or of a particular format.

    What I did say is what the NT says: it is to be regular; it is to be meeting together with each other; it is to be organized with recognized leadership called of the Holy Spirit; it is for specific purposes; it is for the growth and ministry of each believer. (some I have not mentioned in an earlier post, but they are what the NT teaches).

    As far as speaking at length about Christ, first, I was doing as asked – speaking about pastors and churches we had good words about.

    Secondly, I was speaking about Christ – and some of how He expresses Himself through His people and His Church. Such examples of Him are wonderful and precious.

    The fact that you make such a dichotomy of Christ and His Body tells me that you are in need of further instruction of both. Maybe you should find a local assembly of believers where this can be accomplished.

    God bless,

  402. GARYB:

    Disregarding the correct teaching of Lightning Storm, you also obviously missed my post where this was explained. Just because the pharisaical and temple leaders made the claim that these men were “uneducated and unlearned” men, does not mean that they were.

    I previously gave evidence that they most likely were fairly well educated – especially Luke and Paul (though not likely part of the group the temple leaders were speaking of).

    Perhaps, you’ll not be so quick to repeatedly quote a passage of Scripture out of context (which includes the context of the whole Bible and the culture in which the incident took place). It only makes you appear ignorant and unlearned to some.

    God bless,

  403. I set in a church for 15+ years under a minister that spent much time in prayer, fasting, and study of the word. In the meetings he always had the power and anointing that was very evident. He has since went to be with the Lord.

    I am so thankful he was not on the internet 24/7 belittling everybody. That’s the difference between a Man of God with the power versus someone who shows movies at church, does not charge an admission but wants a free will offering.

    Its generally not a small hand basket they pass around but a big laundry basket.

    And people wonder why so many do not want to go to these churches.


  404. ROGER: To answer your question to Ian concerning his location – I believe he is from South Africa.

    I have no disagreement that the Church of Jesus Christ is universal (and outside the bounds of time).

    However, if that is where one stops in His relationship to Christ and His Body, then it is unbalanced.

    The fullness of the teaching concerning Christ’s Church in the NT is that it is also found to be in local bodies/assemblies of believers.

    There are two great commandments in which all others find their roots: (1) To love God with all you are and have; and (2) to love your neighbour as yourself. Both of these are relationship issues and both are to be found to be an active, growing part of His Church.

    How one can actively read and study the NT and not see the commands, directives, examples, and design of Christ’s Church to be found in a local body of believers can only have its basis in one of three places I can see – either deception (including self-deception). blinded spiritual eyes, or a lack of sound teaching (often the result of them shunning a local assembly of believers).

    Does God call individual believers to leave the local church which they may have been a part of?

    Yes, He does (sometimes).

    God took me out of, not only the church I was a part of, but also out of the only denomination I had been a part of for almost 50 years. Since then He has put me into and taken me out of a number of local churches. I am now an active part of the one I described in my earlier post.

    In spite of the local assemblies which ostracized me (even to the point of several of them throwing me out and/or literally locking me out of their building), I held to the truth of the NT to be an active part of a local body/assembly of believers. Due to this, He has taken me into numerous churches of different persuasions. He had me there for His purposes and has taught me much from being in each one of them.

    If there exists any reason(s) why one should leave a church, it probably has applied to me. I know the hurt, hard hearts, unregenerated, corrupt, and godless church leadership, embracing of doctrines of demons, false teachings and practices, hatred, envy, abuse of power, etc., etc., etc. I have been on the receiving end of these things in numerous churches.

    No matter how horrendously some denominations and local churches have behaved; despite the predominance and proliferation of ungodly churches and those who have abused and twisted Christ’s design and intentions for His Church, none of these things have any justification for the believer not to be part of a local body of believers.

    Those who claim they have been told by the Holy Spirit (or a supposed appearance of Christ Himself) that they are not to be a part of a local body of Christ have a great problem to contend with.

    That problem is not with me; that problem is with God’s Word Itself. As I’ve said, the NT clearly teaches by doctrine, direct command, and example that believers are to be actives parts of a local body of believers which regularly meets together.

    It is both the teaching of the Word of God and my experience that the Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the Word of God. So, as I said, those who claim that their situation is different have a real conundrum they need to resolve: do they follow the Word of God or do they follow what they believe to be the Spirit of God?

    Obviously, there are many “out-of-churchers” who use websites such as this one in a futile effort to replace the local assembly of believers. They not only reject the NT’s teaching on their responsibility to be an active part of a local body of believers, they also apparently reject the truth (Romans 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:14) and sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3) as has been observed even on this forum.

    No doubt they can keep this current forum going unendingly, wrangling, and twisting Scripture to suit the lifestyles they’ve chosen.

    God bless,

  405. Wayne
    I don’t read your posts because some I have looked at I find your always being critical of everyone. I do not think you are getting all of this from the Lord because Jesus does not treat His people this way.

    I personally believe a minister should be on his knees seeking the face of the Lord. God has called no one to straighten every single person out. That is my personal opinion.

    Go back and look at your comments, in almost everyone of them your attacking someone. I have been guilty of this sometimes myself, but I am seeing as some have shared there is a better way to reach out and minister to people.

    Were not your enemies here, their on the outside of your church and one day I hope you’ll understand God is bigger then what you think.


  406. Richard Savage Mar 20th 2013

    Pastor Wayne, I stand to publicly respect your views, your judgements and your chosen way of life. I believe you to be a Godly man, not deceived, led of the Holy Spirit. I’m very pleased to acknowledge you a brother in Christ. May the LORD bless you and keep you.

    I walk in the light given me, not that given you.

    Returning to the subject of this thread, well, almost; I would point out that spiritual aberrations, doctrinal deviations and out right heresy emanate from the organised church, not the Church. If it were not so, forums such as RS would have little to discuss.

    Marilyn, please walk the path Christ has given you, not man. In Christ you are justified, with man you will always be justifying yourself to them.

  407. Richard Savage Mar 20th 2013

    Pastor Wayne, in view of your comment on the educated/uneducated debate, which pieces of the Bible are we two ignore, and which may we re-interpret in the light of knowledge, scholarship?

    What has greater value, knowledge of Christ or knowledge of the Bible? Is there a difference?

  408. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    Well Said Roger! Amen!

    My family and I have been “called out” as well and God has used the wilderness as a refining fire to change and purify us. The most intimate fellowship I have had in the body of Christ has been with my family and through e-mails with people I have never met.

    I have tried, oh so many times, to be apart of a local fellowship, but what I find is rampant sin and a desire to seek after the flesh. Most assemblies I have went to have made me walk away feeling dirty, or worse yet, luke-warm about God.

    I know there are local churches out that are true to the calling of Jesus Christ, I just have not yet found one.

    Whether one is an “out-of-church” Christian or apart of a local assembly of true believers, we both seek to be conformed to Christ and we both have fellowship with other born-again believers.

    Whether one has fellowship in the wilderness or within a church- bought building, they are both following Christ’s commands. I don’t understand why those within a “local church” feel that those who are not in a “local church” are rebels.

    Just because I don’t send a check to a local assembly, doesn’t mean I don’t give to the poor and needy and other ministries.

    Just because I don’t fellowship within four walls of a church building, doesn’t mean I don’t have fellowship with other Christians.

    Just because I am not taught by an ordained minister, doesn’t mean I am not taught by my family, other Christians, and famous authors through out the ages.

    I simply don’t understand what charges, Biblically, can be levied against those who are not apart of a local congregation.

  409. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    A belated thankyou to those who appreciated the brief description of the Ekklesia of our Lord Jesus the Messiah of God, shared earlier. 🙂

  410. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    As I wrote, many other writings were posted.

    I just simply don’t understand how there is a distinction between Christians who meet in a home, on the phone, e-mail, or in coffee shop, versus Christians who meet in a building on the corner with a billboard sign.

    Why is one local assembly Godly while the other is not?

    Are they not all assemblies of Christians?

  411. Jda016 Mar 20th 2013

    “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them” (Matthew 18:20).

    Is that not a local church or assembly?

  412. Roger (NZ) Mar 20th 2013

    Jonathon, yes there a number being posted, and very quickly 🙂

    To All: I’m not sure which comment to respond to here..? So I’ll try and cover a number with reference to a scripture that Wayne shared to do with loving our neighbour.

    When I shared earlier about the universal ‘church’ of Lord Jesus, I also shared that the members operate at a local level – in our case with immediate neighbours, some of whom are members of various denominational churches, and believe they are called of God to be there, others who are agnostic or non-believers.

    I won’t ague with any of their beliefs, and will not tell them different – we have shared with them our own ‘calling out’ – and they accept that to the degree that we can have true fellowship together, meals, prayer, sharing how God involves Himself in our individual lives.

    All we may do is to point them to Jesus as Saviour, and as Lord – they have a choice to ask further questions or stand back and watch Him in action through us.

    I don’t share these personal details to boast – other than to give glory to Lord Jesus for the work He has done in us, still doing in us, and how He has used us from time to time as He involves us in His work with other people.

    Wayne – an observation if I may..?
    Like Richard I respect your beliefs and views. However – I have one concern for you when you speak of OOC’s – you refer to them as ‘they’, as though those who are called by God into an area that you have not experienced, are somehow out of order with God..?

    I have never seen any member, or group, of Christ Jesus body of believers, His ekklesia, as ‘us and them’. I do see us all as different, uniquely created by God, with differing giftings, callings, administrations and abilities.

    As you know Paul describes these, very aptly, as ‘body parts’ eyes, ears, fingers, hands – all different, because we all have individual purposes in God’s plan – yet (Paul again) we all need each other, none is above the other, none is below. His first letter to Corinth, chapter 12 explains better than I can.

    As GaryB said – we aren’t enemies here 🙂

  413. Jda016 Mar 21st 2013

    Amen Roger. That is how I see it as well!

  414. watchful Mar 21st 2013

    ….the terms uneducated/unlearned etc I have always taken to be referring to higher education just as it does today….hence most of the apostles were not learned in terms of higher education…? The basic religious training of children leading up to Bar Mitvah I don’t think can be considered higher education..?

    Also Lightning Storm please consider this passage, unless there is some other explanation that I’m not aware of:

    Jhn 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

    Jhn 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

    Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    To me it does seem that the Lord wants us to get a message with such verses. Not to be against education, but that what matters is the heart, and that it depends on God’s glory, not man’s ability.

  415. Serenity Mar 21st 2013

    Let me declare my respect for Pastor Wayne and for the balance of knowledge, wisdom, and love of the brethren that he shows. No-one on Earth is yet perfect.
    The apostle Paul ruffled feathers wherever he went, but he was not in error.

    It is the spirit of error, false grace, that we are talking about today. I am not discerning this as definitely being in any of the recent comments on this thread.

    ‘If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth ; …’
    ‘Every one born of God doeth no sin, because His seed abideth in him : and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.’ (1 John 1 : 6, & 1 John 3 : 9.)

    Being an English speaker only, I rely heavily on Panin’s NENT, Numeric English New Testament.
    Panin – brilliant mathematician, converted to Christ, amazing reverence for the Lord and every word He wrote, found out that God had made His Word such that every word could be corroborated mathematically.

    This is a resource that could benefit us all.
    We cannot trust in a ‘Bible’ (version) that has been reinterpreted according to some man’s whims.

    ‘This is He that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
    And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
    Because the witnessing are three : the Spirit, and the water, and the blood : and the three agree in one.’
    (1 John 5 : 6 – 8. NENT).

  416. So much of what is being said sounds o so spiritual. Folk, this is the difference between learned in the scriptures & not. One will struggle to find someone really learned in the scriptures, who is not bitter and with issues, going along with you all.
    There were 7 churches in Asia alone. Enough of that.
    Today starts a 4 day holiday in SA. Its 4:00am & I am off to Lesotho on a 4×4 weekend in the sticks with my wife & some mates & their wives. One is a pastor 🙂
    So. be Blessed you all, back in 4 days with a lot of dust & dirt

  417. Serenity Mar 21st 2013

    What a laugh, sister Joan W., ‘Pentecostal gang-busters’ !

    I’d never heard of them before. Something I’d really like to be a part of, if the Lord leads. 🙂
    However, I thought that as parts of the Body every one of us should be employed daily in tearing down the enemy’s plans and in building up the Body.
    (Mostly by prayer and teaching, as led by the Spirit.)

    It was really interesting to read your kind-hearted evaluation of where I’m at and what I do.
    As someone said above, emails give only a partial and not very accurate view of a person.

    Eg, I am not immersed in theological materials at all.
    Just my ASV 1901 and NENT. Occasionally I look at the Young’s Bible Dictionary to check out the meaning of a word. No tv preachers, no big names; almost never go to conferences, or watch teaching videos.
    Once a week I go with family to a ‘barn’ and to a home group, where the teaching is very ‘lite’.

    I cannot help but observe life through the lens of the Word and the Spirit, as far as I know them.
    Not in order to ‘know everything about God’, but to understand His Word and His ways and His Spirit enough to fulfil His call on me, and to bring all the souls I’m called to, into His kingdom.

    Your prayers for me in this regard would be much appreciated. Thank you sister Joan.

  418. Lightning Storm Mar 21st 2013

    Well, Gary B……we are in a predicament aren’t we?

    Who is being hypocritical here? Do people here have “christian” books on their shelves? Yet do not RESPECT a dictionary or a concordance.

    If so…..then there are double standards being played here.

    There are those on this site that REFER TO and POST books written by men that are giving THEIR OPINIONS about what scripture means AND what God is saying in a particular scripture.

    A dictionary or concordance is NOT a man’s opinion anymore than any other LANGUAGE dictionary.
    I do not know ANCIENT Hebrew nor Greek nor Aramaic, so I use a dictionary.

    Does anyone even use an English Dictionary anymore?
    Even in speaking the English language, people make up their own DEFINITIONS for words instead of the standard definition in a dictionary.

    I am not using COMMENTARIES, which ARE a man’s opinion.

    Acts 4:13 does not contradict what I have said about the Apostles and Jesus NOT being uneducated.

    But in order for you to know that, I would have to USE A DICTIONARY.

    There is a reason that Father calls evil, DARKNESS, and why He says that men PREFER DARKNESS.

  419. GARYB:
    My brother, I have a question for you – why do you (and others it applies to) do the very thing you accuse others of doing? I believe Christ had a word to describe such actions.

    I don’t believe that you have correctly read what I have written. If you read carefully, I believe you will find that what you claim as “criticizing” and “attacking others,” is not so. I think you will find that the things I have come against are those teachings and opinions which do not line up with correctly interpreted Scripture – not people’s persons, characters, or hearts. I haven’t even come against their callings, giftings, or position in Christ, have I?

    Would it please you more, if I were more like Christ and started calling people hypocrites, vipers, or Satan, as Christ did on occassion? Would that make me more Christ-like in your eyes?

    Whatever your answer, I thank Christ, it is not you I have to please. I have one Master, who is my Judge, and I stand before Him with a clear conscience over what I have written here.

    Also, “IF” I am called by God to operate in a way which is beyond your realm of experience what is that to you? I am not saying I am called to what you accuse me of, but if I was, what is that to you?

    Perhaps you may want to consider applying to yourself the advice you’ve given to spend much time in prayer and less time on the internet (judging others perhaps?).

    ROGER (NZ): To answer your query, I refer to “they” as a way to distinguish whom I am referring to. It is the English third person plural pronoun which one uses to describe such. If you read carefully, there is at least one “they” where, by implication, I include myself in the paragraph, which follows. I do not consider anyone here to be my enemy – nor me theirs (there I go again – using a third person plural pronoun LOL).

    I do, however, grow weary of my brothers and sisters who insist that there are only two options: to be seperate from a local church; or to belong to an organization which is a counterfeit church. There is a third option, which I have attempted to point others to. Some, however, seem intent on insisting on only one of two options.

    I must commend you for your actions and works you do with your neighbours and others you interact with – although, I know you did not do such to boast or be commended for. I recognize that you used it as an illustration to help make the point you were making. (It’s too bad that others cannot discern such things in what others write).

    All of Christ’s disciples should strive to come into relationships – not only with various believers – but also with the unregenerated Christ brings us into contact with. There is a reason Christ called us to be light and salt.

    However, I do have one (or perhaps two – maybe three) questions for you:

    (1) It appears to me that you consider the activities you are engaged in to constitute a local assembly of believers? Why then does your definition differ from what is taught and demonstrated in the NT as to what constitutes the local Body/assembly of believers (usually referred to in the NT as “the church, the churches”)?

    (2) If the NT defines, describes, and demonstrates the church as not only universal, but also within the context of an organized, local, physical assembly of believers which regularly meet together to interact (as a Body) and for specific purposes, then why does your definition of the local body of believers differ from that found in God’s Word?

    Also, you promote the various parts of the ministry of the various parts of the Body of Christ. It is obvious, even from a cursory reading of the books of the NT where such references are made, that they are made within the context of the local church(es) to whom they were written. Those local churches were organized and regularly met together physically and interacted together with each other (how can the analogy of a Body contain the idea that the constituant parts operate in separation from each other?). It was likely in such a gathering that such letters were read to the local congregation of believers as a whole. Why do you not apply these passages as they were originally written (i.e. the parts of the body are not separated from the context of the local, organized, physical, gathering together of believers on a regular basis nor do they operate in physical separation from each other in that context)?

    May God grant you understanding from His Word as you ponder these questions – and their answers, my brother.

    You said, “I simply don’t understand what charges, Biblically, can be levied against those who are not apart of a local congregation.”

    My question to you is, “Do you want to understand?” Or, are you simply making such a statement to justify your position?

    God bless you, brothers and sisters, fellow-posters (and I sincerely mean this).


  420. WATCHFUL………………..may NONE ever slip away
    from the SIMPLICITY which is in CHRIST
    YES……………….when there is NO contradiction ………..then you KNOW its truth.
    I PRAISE GOD…………………….for putting me ONLY in the bible…..
    FOR what man has complicated and made rough
    GOD has made plain and the way SMOOTH.
    ROGER……………….a HUNDRED TIMES amen.
    LET those who are learned go and help others
    and teach them of THE TRUE CHRIST and not who men
    say HE IS………….but WHOM the BIBLE says HE IS
    and the HOLY SPIRIT as our guide.
    THERE is no contradiction to WHAT paul and the apostels
    said, to WHAT JESUS said.
    SO long as contradictions are seen…………THEN tis simply
    a lack of UNDERSTANDING.
    THIS is wonderful GOOD to know. AMEN.
    SO i sing…………….PRAISE THE LORD
    and to the LORD be all GLORY.
    what is one of the least things we hear……………
    It aint men squabbling over doctrine.
    it aint someone trying to show they know all…………
    SO i say LIFT UP those EYES above
    and cast all earthly things aside……………..and
    WATCH………………..let not your heart say MY lord
    delays HIS COMING…………….
    LET NOT your mouth say…………..OH IT COULD BE HUNDREDS of years……………
    NO early apostle ever talked like that…………all spoke of HIS COMING as being NIGH
    so why NOT THIS AGE……………………
    well……………how many TOOK serious LOTTS warning…………
    HOW many GOT on NOAHS boat……………..
    THESE are THOSE DAYS……………….
    and JESUS said…………………..the son of man comes in the days
    off lott and noah. THIS is a MAJOR SIGN NOT TO BE IGNORED.
    but some would rather be anywhere BUT ABOVE wiht all HOPES
    above. amen. and this is UTTER tragedy on the soul.
    be blessed one and all. amen.

  421. The Lord called me out of a local congregation and then towards the end of last year He called me back in… 🙂

  422. Marilyn Crow Mar 21st 2013

    Thank you Richard Savage for the encouragement & yes not to try & justify myself. Here I will try & clarify.

    Pastor Wayne

    I agree totally with your description of the local meeting together, a good summary. I think for what many of us here are experiencing is the beginning of local fellowships & not the full manifestation of a local group.

    For a good example we read of the Apostle Paul meeting with some women by the river with Lydia being the one who received the good news first. Then her household & gradually some others.
    Local groups did not start fully formed but developed over time.

    We see this has happened with all the `denominations,` over the years, a few people in an area, then a small group, till these connected across areas.

    Finally I do not see a division between Jesus the Head, & His Body, as you thought I must. I also have & have had wonderful Godly examples of leadership in my life & see the Lord`s workmanship in them. It does seem to me however, that we can speak too much of man when to be really encouraged speaking of our Lord Himself, His character, is what we really need.

    May we all continue to be changed into His likeness.

    `But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.` (2 Cor. 3: 18)

  423. Marilyn Crow Mar 21st 2013

    A further thought of the `forming` of new groups. The past moves are all recognisable & have a main emphasis of Truth – eg. Methodists – Holiness, method, Baptists – baptism, Pentecostals -Pentecost, Holy Spirit experience, Apostolic – 5 fold ministry, particularily Apostles & Prophets. (My family denomination) etc.

    Many of the groups forming will also have a main emphasis. It will be the final truth to stand on to bring us to the unity of Faith,
    Maybe that could be a good topic to discuss one day.

  424. Jda016 Mar 21st 2013

    Dear Pastor Wayne,

    I do wish to understand, hence that is why I ask questions. I have always considered gathering together with fellow believers as “church” even if it was not part of any particular denomination.

    I have tried to gather together with local assemblies or the institutional church, but often I am confronted with such error that I don’t feel that I can stay.

    For example, one church small group that I was apart of spoke with extreme sexual perversion. I confronted the leader in secret with Scripture and he didn’t think anything was really wrong with how they talked. I didn’t feel I could stay with them, because I felt dirty every time I was around them.

    Another church I went to taught that your money was only suppose to be tithed to that particular church and if you did not give them money, you were going to hell. I felt that was in error and felt that if I stayed then I would be in agreement with them, which I could not do.

    And those two situations were mild compared to some other errors I have encountered.

    I sincerely ask you, what is a person to do in these situations? Should one keep knocking on every church door until you find one? Or should I have just stayed where I was?

    Please understand, there are not “out-of-church” Christians because they spurn fellowship and wish to be rebellious, it is because they simply can’t find a place with believers who desire Holiness and to know Christ.

  425. Andrew Mar 21st 2013

    You wrote-

    “Please understand, there are not “out-of-church” Christians because they spurn fellowship and wish to be rebellious, it is because they simply can’t find a place with believers who desire Holiness and to know Christ.”

    Since there seems to be a clear “anti-Body” and “anti-Leader” attitude in some, I do not know if this is true for all, my friend.

    Sad but true.

    Bless you!


  426. Jda016 Mar 21st 2013

    You are right. I suppose that is not the attitude of all, but it certainly has been true for me!

    Bless you too Andrew!

  427. Roger (NZ) Mar 21st 2013

    Wayne – thankyou for the questions, I will answer as best I can. 🙂

    Firstly, my previous sharing was not my definition of a local assembly of believers – it was a part sharing of my experiences in our local neighbourhood, and most of those are non-believers.

    My definition would be a gathering of born-again, Spirit filled, believers in, and followers of: Jesus as Saviour and Lord, where any meeting is gathered and led by the Holy Spirit. I have experienced such a meeting, though on few occasions. The first one that I was invited to, was so different from any previous meeting, that I could only watch.

    I was ‘saved’ in a house meeting environment, in the UK, and only after arriving in NZ, did we attend a pentecostal church. The people were lovely, the pastors laid down the rules, saying how and when we should give money. The teaching was questionable – by that I mean that certain teachings we could not agree with, and during the week after, with prayer and scripture reference, we realised that Biblical truth was being twisted. We prayed that Lord Jesus would show us whether to stay or leave, the pastor next sermon explained that we should leave.

    We (my wife and I) were counselled by other church members that we were full of pride, or in rebellion – that the pastor knew best.

    Over a period of some 13 years we experienced a succession of ‘in and out’ – hoping that somewhere we would find a ‘home’. In one fellowship, we stayed some 6 years and I was being groomed as a ‘speaker’, and about to be appointed a deacon – God raised us up, and moved our household to another large town. We found a fellowship there, and I was involved with the youth – I was asked to set up a teaching program, but the material I was to use included New Age mysticism – when I explained I could not do this and why, we were gently moved to one side by the church leaders.

    It was from this last fellowship, that God called us out. Now Ian in his last comment spoke of bitterness and issues as a reason many come out. The emotion I still have is sadness that pastors would accept, and teach, error. I still have contact with some people from those years – middle 70’s through late 80’s – and even those ones still accept error.

    We have been ‘out’ of the denominational system since 88, and in that time Lord Jesus has stripped away the error, and given revelation of His truth. During this time, He has brought elders (as I shared before) across our path, to love, teach, and disciple us.

    On other occasions, Lord Jesus has introduced us to some who have never been inside a church – do not know what an alter call is, have no concept of a structured religious environment – yet as we shared, we had an immediate unity of the Holy Spirit – true fellowship, with Lord Jesus present. With each divine appointment, we watched, learnt and saw God working in peoples lives, how He knew best for those individuals.

    Previously you suggested that God does have believers leave a church – sometimes, and I seem to remember you had been in one church for 50 years..? I cannot comprehend that – it is not where God has had us walk with Him. The longest we have stayed in one fellowship (church) was about 6 years – but then we have only ever lived in one location, at most, 8 years.

    Over the years, we have prayed, asked God why..? Why are we not in a stable fellowship as others share..?, why the continual moving..? I am not to analyse this or attempt to justify – it is the call we have, His purpose for us.

    I cannot explain why – not just some as you believe, but many are called out of religious structures, and into a personal relationship, and discipling, with Lord Jesus.

    What I do not see today is the same ‘churches’ on the NT – but then christianity was ‘new’ then, there were very few churches set up, and a number of those it seems quickly lost the initial purity of doctrine, accepting error and pleasures of ‘self’ into their midst. Lord Jesus could not commend all 7 in the His letters (revelation) through John.

    I know that many ask why can we not return to the church of Acts – some of Andrew’s blogs have asked that question.

    I can’t answer that, I’m not God 🙂 all I can say is that world conditions are different now – we are at the end of this age, the Acts churches were at the beginning.

    Some will be upset if I use the term “you can’t put God in a box” meaning that no-one of us may limit God to our simple understanding. Nor are we to try and analyse, using our intellect to try and explain why some things He does are so.

    Sorry yes, this mindset again 🙂 we are to trust Him, walk in faith, abide in Him, share His gospel – the truth of who Lord Jesus is and why He came, and that He is returning.

    I don’t suppose this brief testimony has answered your questions Wayne..? I did pray and ask Lord Jesus to have me say what He desired – and, I had no idea this would be so long, or that I would share as I have.

    I don’t have bitterness or issues with anyone, those are dealt with as the Holy Spirit brings them up to rememberance – and I can repent, and move on – I trust in His Will..!! The fact that He continues to answer prayer, continues to prompt us to go, do, say, as He convicts, is proof enough for me that He can use this vessel that He continues to refine.

    In His love,