“HEALED VIA YOUTUBE!” – Pass This Video On!

If you know anyone who is sick, please pass the video below on to them. We all know it is Jesus Christ that heals, not any man. But praise God, His healing power is flowing through Torben in a mighty way-

Read this testimony from one of my readers-

Tammy wrote-
“I was thrilled you posted his video, this led me to more of his
videos on Youtube and I found one called, “I will Pray for you on
TV.”  Well, he prayed and my knee pain that I had for years went
away immediately and has not come back! Hallelujah! I was
shocked! It actually took me a few minutes to sink it all in.

“(My knees have been in so much pain. It hurt to sit down, go up
and down stairs, they even hurt at night when I sleep. NOT ANY
MORE!!! The Lord INSTANTLY healed them for me tonight… I ran
up and down the stairs several times, sat down, got back up,
bent them in all kinds of ways and I have zero pain!!!)

“I have said for years, I do not need to go to the doctor, the Lord
is going to heal my knees… What an awesome ministry and
what an awesome God we serve!”

PLEASE FORWARD this Video to any sick people that you
know. I can personally vouch for Torben’s ministry.

Special blessings to all. – Andrew Strom.

Posted in TV & Videos by Andrew on July 9th, 2013 at 12:37 pm.


149 Replies

  1. fabakary Jul 9th 2013

    Thanks andrew storm for sharing this series of testimonies on what can can do in vessels like us. His wine is always available but the vessels must be able to receive it, least it be destroy. A pure holy vessels free from the traditions of human logic, the limitations cause by the theories of science , that sees beyond natural laws will be a fitted vessels to received this wine from the Lord. May we all be such vessels . It is always profitable to read about “life” be it in the body , soul or spirit.

  2. Lightning Storm Jul 9th 2013

    Whoo hoo AMEN!! Hallelujah Jesus, encourage the people, who have received YOUR healings through this video, post their testimonies…..may there be many many healings and many many testimonies to Your Glorious Goodness and Love.

  3. Hi all,

    I have been telling as many people as I can to view Torbens videos with great results.
    Even more importantly when personally speaking with them they had been pre prepared by God, it was totally arranged by the Holy Spirit.
    One example is this was just yesterday…. I was going to visit a friend of mine who has a huge email list to encourage him to send out links to Torban videos etc.
    Well unknowing the same man turns up at my home (hasn’t been to my place for over a year) while I was out and phones me on my cellphone.
    Later I visited him at his home.
    Before saying anything I asked him what he was doing about ministry.
    He said he was thinking over involvement in starting healing meetings so I showed him Torbens site etc.
    Links to the videos have now gone out to thousands of people here in New Zealand on that list which is extensive.
    When I drove away from my friends house I said to the Lord I have just been talking about healing but I need to do it today.
    At the 3rd set of traffic lights I stopped at I looked across at a man walking on the foot path.
    I was in the second lane out , when he made eye contact he immedately walked out to my van I rolled down the window and asked if he felt alright.
    To cut along story short , within minites of asking I was praying for someone in my van .
    Just thought this would be a great encourgement for everyone reading.
    Going to head out again today and visit another person who God has been speaking to about healing evangilism etc.
    I you can please do a google and youtube search and watch some more of Torbens videos they are super encourageing and get christians re focused on Jesus and the spreading of the Gospel etc.
    I can personally vouch for it as I am seeing it happen right now with the people around me.

    Keep or eyes on the Lord and not man.

    God bless.

    Grant Sutton
    Grant @scripturepromises.com

  4. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Pat Robertson beat him to the punch and has been doing this for years now. I’ve got asthma and a persistent cough I’d like to get rid of, but doesn’t seem the Holy Spirit likes my computer. On the other hand, is the Holy Spirit obsessed with my healing, or is He rather more concerned with my spiritual condition?

  5. Andrew Jul 10th 2013

    Jesus healed everyone.

    Why do we think he has changed?


  6. Thanks for the testimony Apollos5600, I agree that your spiritual condition is way more important to Jesus.

    Does anyone really think Torben can command every sickness to go? That is what he said and yet we all know that not everyone will get healed from watching the video, right? I know that Jesus can heal those he chooses to heal but not EVERY sickness is going to go. I mean would Torben tell us ” I can command every sickness to go” , because that is what he is doing by saying it . It didnt happen and it will never happen, why pretend it is ok to make a claim like that?

    I am all for faith to believe that The Lord will heal but lets keep it real please.

  7. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Andrew, did Jesus heal Paul’s thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor 12:7-9) Is Jesus less of who He claims to be because He didn’t remove it from Paul? And if Jesus didn’t remove the thorn, does it follow from this that removing any thorns is at all important in the grand scheme of things? Are we blessed because we have seen, or are we blessed who have not seen and yet still believe? (John 20:29) It is appointed unto us once to die, and then the judgment. Is it wrong that it is our destiny to get sick, old, and otherwise suffer until we die? What, do you suppose, is the true end of a Christian anyway? To receive healings or prosperity on this Earth, or is it to produce fruits not of this world, but which shall abide forever? (John 15:16) And can any Earthly blessing in this world compare to the heavenly blessing we will have after our bodies have died?

  8. Roger (NZ) Jul 10th 2013

    Andrew – You are right Jesus has not changed – I believe that Jesus heals today, I have been healed by Him, and have seen others healed through prayer, and also by laying on of hands with prayer.

    However, Jesus did not indiscriminately heal all the people all of the time, but those whom God willed to be healed were healed.

    Apollos5600 mentioned Paul continued ‘thorn in the flesh’, and John 5:1-15 tells us that multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethesda to be healed, Jesus did not call everyone forward, He picked only one person to be healed, a blind and lame man.

    We may not understand that sometimes God allows illness, infirmity, for His purposes.

  9. Andrew Jul 10th 2013

    True – and I never heard Torben claim once that “everyone” would be healed.

    But I did read that “Jesus healed all who were brought to Him”.

    So we should clearly be seeing a lot more of it.

    Also critical for EVANGELISM – like the Book of Acts.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  10. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    I believe that this subject was discussed on the SECOND Torben video that was posted by Strom.
    “Young believers heal the sick”

    The Lord REQUIRES far more from those who are INDWELT WITH ALMIGHTY GOD then He does from those who don’t even know Him yet.
    “too whom much is given, much is required”

    For the born again, healing is a fruit of sanctification/purification and submission to the Holy Spirit authority. We can receive healing in other ways as God chooses, but as our SOUL PROSPERS, so does our HEALTH.

    The born again are also told to CONFESS AND REPENT BEFORE they go and ask for healing.
    Jam 5:16 KJV – Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Jam 5:14 KJV – Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    Jam 5:15 KJV – And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    Spiritual, Emotional, Mental, and Physical Healing is for ALL….but healing comes from God in many different ways, as we can see the VARIETY of ways people were MIRACULOUSLY healed in the OT and the NT.

  11. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    If Christianity were a health spa, I’d consider your post admirable. But as it is not, I can do nothing else except condemn claims like this: “as your soul PROSPERS, so does your HEALTH.”

    The leaders of the original Reformation had no emphasis on the miraculous. If anything, it was the Catholic counter-reformists who emphasized the allegedly miraculous and the mystical in order to ensnare people back to their system. While many of the reformers, like John Knox and others, moved with power reminiscent of the Book of Acts and the prophets of old, you certainly would never hear them utter the phrase “as your soul PROSPERS, so does your HEALTH.” Nor would you hear them emphasizing the miraculous and its possible benefits for believers. Instead, they would preach the Gospel, full of correct doctrine, refuting the error of the Catholics and teaching on everything from hell, to the atonement, to the preservation of the saints. Their focus was not on HEALTH and PROSPERITY, but on the truth of God, which they taught every day.

    George Whitefield declared one day upon a box that depending on works to save your soul was like trying to climb to heaven on a rope of sand. The next day he died. Was George, this hero of the Great Awakening, an unrepentant sinner? The daughter of the worthy Dr. John Gill, I believe her name was Elizabeth, was the recipient of many wonderful and incredible visions of heaven. She even received a vision of a dark horsemen, coming upon her and delivering a deadly stroke, only to find herself in heaven among the saints. Dr. Gill called it an accurate emblem of her eventual death. She died at 12 years old. Was Elizabeth Gill an unrepentant sinner whose health did not prosper because her soul was poor?

    If “the flesh profiteth nothing, it is the Spirit that quickens,” and if we are not to “Take… thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” And if we are promised that we will be delivered “up to be afflicted, and [they] shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake,” is it logical to conclude from any of this that Christians are to be concerned with a healthy body or a rich wallet?

    Certainly, pray for healing! Pray to avoid your inevitable death for as long as possible! But to promise believers a “healthy” body, as if God might not have some other plan for you, simply has no place within the Gospel message. If anything, we ought to teach a hatred of the flesh, and the things thereof, and a desire for heaven instead.

  12. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013


    From your post, it is clear that you have no idea what sanctification/purification; renewing the mind; or being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ consists of.

    The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was for more than being delivered from hell……it was also for being delivered FROM SIN (all sin), OUR SELF, THE WORLD, AND THE DEVIL.

    3Jo 1:2 KJV – Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

    3Jo 1:2 NKJV – Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

    3Jo 1:2 NASB – Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.

    3Jo 1:2 YLT – beloved, concerning all things I desire thee to prosper, and to be in health, even as thy soul doth prosper,

  13. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Now, as to this idea that the gift of healing is “critical” for Evangelism, even this I would deny using the same examples as in the other post. Not one of the Reformists found it critical to heal anyone’s body to convince them. Instead, they set about healing the soul with the truth taught in the scriptures. In fact, I would argue that miraculous works weren’t even critical for the conversion of the Apostles.

    Jesus Christ asks Peter “whom do men say that I am?” And Peter replies, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” (Going by memory). To which Christ replies, “blessed are thou… for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.” Think about the words of this verse. Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee! Not just his own flesh or carnal reasoning, but even the person of Jesus Christ was not of Himself the deciding factor for Peter’s believing. It was the revelation that came straight from the Father that was the critical factor.

    Again, by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, we read “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” It is the Spirit, who is sent from the Father and the Son, by whom it is necessary to believe that Jesus is Lord. In John 6 Christ declares, “no man can come unto me, unless it is given unto him of my Father.” In fact, that is Christ’s explanation for why the Jews did NOT believe, because the Father had not “given unto them” to believe.

    Certainly, the gifts of the Spirit are wonderful, especially those gifts such as teaching, and temperance, and love, and many other such like gifts. Visions are spectacular; healings put the enemy to shame; prophecy proves the providence of God. But, in the end, all is ineffectual without the Spirit infused preaching of the Gospel, determined to reveal to a man that Jesus “is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

    Give me an army of Christians who know their Bible, armed by the Holy Ghost with spiritual wisdom according to the purpose of God, determined to preach the Gospel, over an army of health and wealth mongers.

  14. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Why are you considering physical death a bad thing? Especially for a person who knows they are going to Heaven? Death should be a joyous time of looking forward to being face to face with our King Jesus and being forever set free from being in the presence of evil, sin, death, and disease.

    Do you believe that a person can determine the time of their own death?
    Do you believe that the devil can determine the time of a person’s death?

    Jesus took the keys of death away from the devil and never gave them back.
    He is sovereign over the time of our deaths and He gives us the OPPORTUNITY to live a life that is wholly HIS…….INCLUDING OUR PHYSICAL BODIES.

    But we are talking about sickness, torment, bondage to sin and iniquity, and deliverance from evil .
    Jesus came to set the captives FREE and to heal the broken hearted.

    Set the captives FREE from what?

  15. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Lightning, with that logic, then sin prevails because:

    Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    What is death except the penalty for sin? Or, in the case of Paul, a deliverance from “the body of this death” to a truly healed body that is greater and far better than this one?

    Furthermore, how do you move from the Apostle saying “I DESIRE you to have health,” to “I PROMISE you will have health if you are submitting yourself properly to the Holy Ghost, and so by your works your body shall be healthy”?

    As that is my conclusion from your words: “For the born again, healing is a fruit of sanctification/purification and submission to the Holy Spirit authority.” And again, “The Lord REQUIRES far more from those who are INDWELT WITH ALMIGHTY GOD then He does from those who don’t even know Him yet.”

    This is nothing more than a reverse Catholicism. Instead of works moving you to heaven, your continued obedience and submission to the Holy Spirit shall net you a healthy body. This is a perversion of scripture refuted by the experience of millions of holy Christians who have perished by disease or other means for the past 2,000 years. And, of course, of every Christian who never fails to die, except perhaps those fortunate enough to live during the rapture! Not to mention Christ’s emphasis on spiritual matters over the flesh!

  16. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Who has said anything about fattening your wallet?

    If “all” we need is what the Reformists had….then why did Jesus Christ HEAL?
    He healed to prove His Goodness and His Faithfulness to an UNBELIEVING generation.

    Do we have an UNBELIEVING generation in today’s world?

    You might ask the question:
    “Why didn’t the Reformists FOLLOW Jesus Christ and the Apostles and heal people?”

  17. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Lightning, it seems on the matter of death you’ve taken my position! But if you say “as the soul PROSPERS, so does your health,” then it does not follow that if our soul continuously prospers, that we shall ever experience the ill-health that comes inevitably with aging. If anything, we should get into better shape with each passing day! Why, by a 120 years old, if what you say is true, I expect to be running the 10K!

    If you only continued with the logic you used to make those conclusions on death, then you would have learned that sickness and other turmoil is part of the Christian experience sovereignly permitted and even planned by God. What He heals is His prerogative, and what He will not heal is His prerogative, for the Lord will “have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.” Instead, we should tighten our belts and put on our man-boots and trudge our way to the muddy ground and reach the finish line. Not coveting “health” or “prosperity” as the center of our universe, but rather stripes, and deaths, and nakedness in the name of Christ.

    2Co 11:23-27 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. (24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. (25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; (26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; (27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

  18. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Lightning, Healing to prove Himself the Son of God, to the condemnation of the unbelievers, and to the joy of the sheep, is far different than healing as a fruit of the Spirit that proves you are obeying the “Holy Spirit authority.” The moment you start telling people that God “requires them” to submit or repent enough so that their bodies are healed, you enter into a new kind of works-righteousness which would rob the Christianity from every believer the world over who catches a cold or suffers from terrible diseases.

    Instead of putting them into despair when their tumors are not healed, by the sovereign decision of God, we ought to point them to far better things.

    I would also like to add that nothing which perishes is worth anything. A regrown amputated arm is of no value to me, since that same arm will be eaten by worms in the grave. A body free from cancer is no great prize, since tomorrow it shall be burned up by the fires of this world. And not even William Seymour from Azuza had a prosperous healthy body, as he died of a heart attack a few years after that revival!

  19. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Yes, Apollos56….suffering in the WILL OF GOD is good according to the scriptures. I embrace the suffering that is the WILL OF GOD.

    But suffering because of our sin, idols of the heart, and iniquity is warned against.

    1Pe 3:17 NASB – For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.

    1Pe 4:1 NASB – Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

    1Pe 4:19 NASB – Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

    The “prospering of our soul” IS SPIRITUAL prospering, which manifests itself in restored health to the mind, the emotions, and the body.

    And suffering because of the attacks from the evil one is sheer nonsense….when you have Almighty God living within you.

    1Pe 2:11 NASB – Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

  20. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Lightning, In 1 Pe 3:17, the context is in guarding our tongues from saying evil things, lest we be punished for “doing evil” by men, as opposed to doing what is good. There is no talk here of an illness or suffering that comes from sin, distinct from an illness or suffering that comes from God. It’s not even on the radar screen.

    The rest of those scriptures, similarly, have no impact on what you are trying to prove at all.

    That is not to say that God does not punish, as those who made havoc of the Lord’s Table were sickly and died, and those who lied to the Holy Ghost also died. Yet the Christian gets sick and dies, whether he likes it or not. And this sickness and death is not different from the aforementioned punishments, but is also the result of a fallen world filled with sin and a dead body still filled with sin that wars against the spirit:

    Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    That is why it is necessary that all die, because all have sinned and fallen short from the glory of God. While the saints are not regarded as ever sinning any longer (in the spirit) (1 Jn 3;6), yet we are liars if we say we have no sin within us (1 Jn 1:8). And it is because of that indwelling sin that it is necessary to face illness, and eventually death, all according to the glory and purpose of God to deliver us into a new and everlasting body free from sin and death.

    That is why, instead of healing him, Paul was allowed to suffer with the “thorn in the flesh” as mentioned previously. And that is why we all suffer, so that the purpose of God given to us before the world began may be fulfilled. And though many of our illnesses are healed throughout our lifetimes, yet a “prosperous” healthy body will never be given to us until after we die.

  21. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    There is much more in OT and NT scripture that teaches us how to receive RESTORATION and REDEMPTION of all that has been stolen and destroyed by evil in our lives….. and it’s available NOW….not just after we go to the grave.

    This is a LOVE relationship….Faith, obedience, and absolute surrender to the Holy Spirit have rewards NOW.

    Has God changed His Mind? Or does God only promise health to the Jews?

    Exd 15:26 KJV – And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

  22. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013

    Lightning, Exodus 15:26 is not a promise to be free from illness. Taken at the letter, at best it is to avoid the specific curses placed upon the Egyptians. But even if it was, there isn’t a man in this world who has not sinned against God, or who does not have a body of flesh possessing sin. It is said “if you give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes.” Since all hath sinned, and all continue to sin (in the flesh), then we are certainly not worthy of being able to avoid all illness and tumult in our lives, especially that most unhealthy condition known as death which awaits us all.

  23. Roger (NZ) Jul 10th 2013

    A link to a short book, written by Torben, some years ago, that some may find of interest.


  24. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013


    I am not talking about avoiding physical death…although some have!

    I am talking about miracles of healing as a manifestation of Almighty God Who is Alive, Powerful, and Full of Mercy and Goodness to those who do not know Him.

    I am talking about a born again person SHOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE THAT PROVEN TO THEM by God, because that same God is living inside of them. They should KNOW Him.

    The born again person should be EXPERIENCING the Goodness of God in their spirit, their soul, and their body.
    And also their other relationships.

    And if not, then they should be on their faces inquiring of God as to WHY NOT?

    Don’t just scratch it off as the “will of God” or “the curse”.

    Which by the way, when we are born again our citizenship is transferred from the “kingdom of this world/darkness” which is under the curse, to the Kingdom of God, which is NOT CURSED.

    Our spirit receives NEW LIFE….it once was dead (UNRESPONSIVE) to the things of God and now alive…..RESURRECTED!
    Our souls are dead (UNRESPONSIVE) to the things of God and being nailed to the cross daily as we surrender to the work of the Holy Spirit in His RESURRECTING the nature of Jesus in the renewing of our minds, wills, and emotions.

    Renewing Restoring Redeeming

  25. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    I will end this discussion with this verse:

    Rom 13:8 KJV – Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Rom 13:9 KJV – For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Rom 13:10 KJV – Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

    The Love talked about in these scriptures is the DIVINE LOVE of the Holy Spirit in Gal 5:22-25.

  26. Jesus healed all those who came and “believed” , and then Jesus would tell them its your faith that has made you whole.

    In His own hometown he could not do many mighty works because of their unbelief.

    There is no where in the Bible that says Paul’s thorn is a sickness this is just an assumption made by people.

    If Jesus said, to go and heal the sick and cleanse the lepers, then why do men in the last days speak against it.

    Men who attack divine healing are not attacking us but are speaking against the word of God.

    17 And these signs will follow those who believe:

    ……………………………they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    It cannot get any clearer then that. God is not a man that He should lie.


  27. Apollos5600 Jul 10th 2013


    2Co 12:7-9 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    We can see the “thorn in the flesh” as either an infirmity in the body, or otherwise an infirmity in the soul, perhaps some grievous temptation, that old man of the flesh warring against the law of God as discussed in Romans 7. In either case, the conclusion is still the same, as I see no reason why we ought to separate deliverance (a spiritual healing) from physical healing, as both were accomplished by Christ. In fact, sometimes they were done both at the same time in cases where the devil inflicts an infirmity in the flesh that Christ must free the individual from (Luke 13). Does the promise to heal all illnesses and disorders only speak of physical problems, but cannot render any hope for spiritual thorns?

    Barnes, in his commentary of this passage, notes that “among the Hebrews it was customary to attribute severe and painful diseases to Satan; compare Job_2:6-7; compare note on Luk_13:16. In the time of the Saviour malignant spirits are known to have taken possession of the body in numerous cases, and to have produced painful bodily diseases, and Paul here says that Satan was permitted to bring this calamity on him.”

    If such a conclusion is made, then many diseases which, perhaps, have some Demonic origin, cannot be touched by your prayer! (I speak only from the leading of your own logic.)

    And then to Timothy:

    1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

    Shouldn’t Paul’s advice simply be “pray your infirmities away” rather than giving him advice to drink a little wine to better his health?

    Now as to healing in general. I never denied it. I merely denied the claim that “as your soul PROSPERS, so does your HEALTH.” As well as the suggestion that spiritual gifts such as healing must be earned through obedience and submission, a backwards sort of works-righteousness that promises a prolonged stay on Earth rather than eternal life in heaven.

    There is something incredibly nefarious in the whole line of argument, since it will likely lead many good Christians who will NOT be healed of their cancer or other ailments to believe that they are not in good standing with God. Or for faithful Christians to have their salvation questioned because they suddenly fall ill and die, as many of us will always do. Especially when they ask us to “wonder why’ it was not healed. Why was Paul not healed after praying thrice, that man of God? Rather, whenever I am confronted with a prayer that is not answered the way I would like it, it is better to learn to say “Thy will be done, O God, in Earth as it is in heaven.”

    This is not a denial of the power of prayer. It is a denial that a man can change the decree of God.

  28. Apollo

    I am glad you mentioned this. No one today has received the abundance of revelations that Paul received, but everyone likes to claim his thorn.

    Please read this:

    Luke 5:4-6

    4 When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, “Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.”

    5 But Simon answered and said to Him, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net.” 6 And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking.

    If you notice Peter said; “nevertheless at Your word”, I will let down the net.

    We practice divine healing because of the Words of Jesus.

    While traditional religion explains away; “why it does not work”, we choose to believe what God has said.

    If Jesus said go heal the sick, then who are we as men to question the Living God. He did not say go preach Paul’s thorn and hope I can heal them.

    The Bible says, Is there any sick among you let him call for the elders of the church.

    In todays church scenario the elders will come and tell him about Paul’s thorn, Ephraditus sickness and Timothy’s stomach problems.

    Why? Because they do not know the power of God and their authority in Christ.

    In this verse: they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    If you do not believe the words of Jesus and you put Pauls’ thorn as the final authority then you are in a state of doubt and unbelief.

    Apollos, Do you not think Jesus is telling us the truth here? He is the one who said, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    Peter said, nevertheless at thy word we will let down the net.


  29. Andrew Jul 10th 2013

    “No one today has received the abundance of revelations that Paul received, but everyone likes to claim his thorn.”

    LOL !!!

  30. fabakary Jul 10th 2013

    When I look unto what Christ has for me I see an infinite spiritual riches. When I look unto How far men have walk in Christ in most cases I see a limited Christ, who does not mean much of what He says. I am to be blame not Christ.

  31. Hi everyone,

    We all need to take our doctrines, theories and experiences and compare them with the Truth.
    By truth I mean this….
    Why because Jesus reveals the will of God.

    2 Peter 3:9 says ….
    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    So God establishes His will that no one should perish
    Does that mean everyone will be saved…. of course not.
    Why ? because we have sinned and have to use the “free will” he has given us to repent in order to conform to His will and be saved.
    Has Gods will failed or changed some how when a person refuses to repent ,of course not.

    We need to know the will of God revealed in Christ .

    Andrew Murray says ” It simply is impossible to pray with faith when we are not sure that we are asking according to the will of God.
    As long as one prays thus, inserting the proviso, ‘If it be Thy will,’ one is praying with submission but this is not the prayer of faith.”

    1 John 5: 14-15 reads…
    Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
    And if we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

    John 15:7-8 Jesus says…
    “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
    “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples”.

    Matthew 21:22
    “And all things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will recieve.”

    James 5: 13-16 reads..
    Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.
    Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
    And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
    Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed . The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

    How can you pray in faith if you believe its not Gods will to heal.
    Could it be that the deep desire or hope in people to pray for healing or recieve healing is in fact built into us from God.

    Please read Mark 9: 14-29.
    The father of the boy who had a mute spirit ask for Jesus comoassion and help.
    Jesus said to him”If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
    Immediately the father cries out and says with tears, ” Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
    He had both belief and unbelief as many people do.
    We all need the Lords help to fight against unbelief (doubt) we live in a unbelieveing world.
    Yet even in the most unbelieveing circumstances Jesus healed the sick.
    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
    I personally am more interested in what the Lord has said.
    See Jesus’s last recorded words in Mark 16 :14 -18 before He was recieved into Heaven.

    Lord help us

    Your brother in Christ
    Grant Sutton

    [email protected]

  32. fabakary Jul 10th 2013

    Beautiful counsel there , Grant Sutton. This blesses me greatly.

  33. just to correct a spelling error in my post I meant to write… compassion not comoassion ….. that sounds like a cross between the words …
    Commotion meaning A state of confused and noisy disturbance.
    And Compassion meaning the understanding or empathy for the suffering of others.

    Perhaps both of the above words need to considered in light of some of the posts

  34. God bless you fabakary,

    He is faithful hold on to the promises that God has placed in your heart. For surely as the Son has risen so shall all of those in Him rise both in this world and the next.
    For the power that works in Him works in all those that are His to do that which pleases Him .

    Much Love in Christ


  35. I see the name it and claim it lies are still at work in peoples minds. It is like saying “I have enough faith to believe that I don’t have the faith to believe enough” , it is nonsense. Our faith is in what Jesus will do, not in our own ability to believe .

  36. fabakary Jul 10th 2013

    Amen Grant Sutton it is not wrong to believe what He says. What He says if Life and will give life to those that believe as he says.

  37. fabakary Jul 10th 2013

    Jeffm wrote “Our faith is in what Jesus will do, not in our own ability to believe .”
    He that doubteth can received nothing from God says the scripture.

  38. Hi all,

    Thought you might like this true story.
    Back in the 1986 when I was new in the Lord I spoke with a older woman about Jesus healing people.
    She said in sort of a put God to a foolish tvest type of way ” can God heal me then” (she had arthritis in the elbow.)
    In my heart I asked the Lord if He would, he replied ” I will if she says “I believe He can”.
    I asked her ” Do you believe He can?”.
    She replied in what I think was a sarcastic tone ” yes I believe He can”.
    I layed hands on her elbow and she was instantly healed.
    How did I know,because she ripped her arm away with a quite shocked and angry look on her face.
    I asked her how her arm was and she said with gritted teeth its “healed”.
    I will never forget it and I suppose she hasn’t either.

    God bless.


  39. fabakary Jul 10th 2013

    Thanks for that wonderful testimony grant sutton “only believe or have faint in God” are common words by our Lord. Our God is good.

  40. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    LOL Grant……the testimony about the woman’s elbow shows us how God will not fit into any of man’s boxes.

    ha ha ha I am still laughing…..what a shock to her belief system that must have been!

  41. Hi Jeffm,

    Well you have absolutely no idea of my position at all.
    I have no time for the name it claim it forfull your lust and greed for power and money etc teachings.
    Andrew can bear witness to my commitment to see people be healed, set free and grow in God.
    My faith is in Jesus Christ ,who I know personally because He saved and completely changed me in 1985 at home and then I went to church.
    Boy was I shocked to find that church wasn’t like in the bible , I didn’t know anything different, I was seeing the Lord do things in my life like the early church .
    I innocently thought it was the same for everyone but soon found it wasn’t.
    The same happened for my younger brother, he came to the Lord a short time after God gave him a dream of the second comming.
    And guess what he started moveing in gifts of the Holy Spirit as well because he didn’t know any different.
    God did it, He still does it , I can do nothing apart from repent for my slackness and surrender to God.
    Let me tell you something, I have seen a lot to believe in, and it makes me feel very small, you know why because God says ” blessed are those who have believed and not seen rather than those who have seen and believed”.
    We have millions of brothers and sisters in the faith who love God dearly and really struggle in this world.
    Should we sit around moaning and feeling sorry for ourselves ridiculeing others trying to serve the Lord perhaps through lack of knowledge in God, unforgiveness or even share exhaustion from having to fight this world.
    My faith is not in my faith its in HIM.
    Thats the problem, when people start to look at man as if they can do anything , its Jesus or be dissapointed for sure.



  42. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Apollos5600 says the following:

    “This is not a denial of the power of prayer. It is a denial that a man can change the decree of God.”
    FIRST, you must KNOW what God HAS decreed.

    One cannot be presumptuous and declare “It is not God’s will” BY DEFAULT.

    ANOTHER reason why Jesus Christ expected us to HEAR His inner audible Voice!

  43. Averyl Jul 10th 2013

    Let’s not forget Job and the attitudes of his friends as to why he was suffering.

    And Daniel, – who knew God was able to save him from death but wasn’t too sure about whether or not he would!

  44. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    There ARE many christians who are NOT in fellowship (good standing) with God!

    For several reasons:

    1) No one has taught them that Holiness is a requirement.
    2)No one has taught them what sin is.
    3) They CHOOSE not to pay the price/cost is too high.
    4) They CHOOSE not to believe the TRUTH even when it comes straight from God’s own mouth. A “Thus sayeth the Lord…….” written in the scriptures.
    5 IDOLATRY IS RAMPANT IN christians.

    You have a better chance of receiving a healing from God BEFORE you are born again, than AFTER!

    To whom much is given, much is required.
    Much? Jesus Christ gave the born again ALL…NOT JUST MUCH, BUT ALL.

  45. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Job received his healing and restoration AFTER he repented.

    And God does NOT promise the same number of years of life……..There is a specific time for physical death for each individual.

    Just because the world says our “life spans” should be 82, 95, 100 years…..does NOT change God’s time of death for an individual.

    We cannot determine; the doctors cannot determine; the government cannot determine; the devil cannot determine our length of days on this side of the grave. Only God determines how many days, months, or years a person will live.
    Jesus Christ took possession of the keys of hell and death. That means Jesus has the Power and Authority over them.

  46. Averyl Jul 10th 2013

    My point was that Job’s friends had opinions as to why he was afflicted, similar to those we hear today.

    What did Job repent of?
    I think most of us need to repent in similar fashion!

  47. Lightning Storm Jul 10th 2013

    Are we REALLY Light and Salt;

    following in Jesus footsteps;

    reflecting Jesus’ Nature (Image)

    making an impact on the kingdom of darkness;

    if people can’t see anything different between our life and our unsaved neighbors’ lives with the exception of the words that come out of our mouths?

    Before I was born again I looked at the lives of the Mormons and said
    “The Mormons look more like christians than the christians, and they don’t even have the REAL Jesus living inside!”
    So all a christian could say to me was not to look at the OUTSIDE, but look at what the bible says!

    Uh huh….do you think I jumped on the bandwagon and signed up for that kind of christianity?
    If my life wasn’t going to have a DRASTIC IMPROVEMENT from what it was already, then I wasn’t signing up for a God who doesn’t have the POWER to change it.

    Jesus brought CHANGE to the people……some were changed on the inside first; some were changed on the outside first…..Who cares how He does it….we are told to PARTICIPATE WITH HIM IN HIS WILL.

    If we aren’t experiencing the abundant Life of Jesus (which has nothing to do with worldly possessions), then AGAIN, as a born again person…..we need to fast and pray on our faces and ask God WHY.
    And keep asking until we receive revelation.

  48. Averyl Jul 10th 2013


  49. Hi,

    God has not given us a spirit fear, but of love and a sound mind.
    The only correct fear is reverance of God for all that He is, all that He has done and all that He will do.
    For while we were still sinnning He sent His Son to die in our place to pay the ultimate price for our sin.
    If His perfect love casts out fear where then does fear of man, fear of failure etc come from.
    We all know Jesus commands us to go into all the world.
    Why do we fear it?….. maybe because sometimes…
    We doubt that God is with us,
    We doubt He loves us
    We doubt we have been made righteous
    We doubt we have been made worthy
    It goes on and on.
    They are lies from the enemy.
    As long as people believe that sitting in a pew on Sunday and paying 10% for the privilage will save the world , then countless millions will end up in the lake of fire.
    Why ? because who can hear (the Gospel) unless we preach it to them.
    God didn’t say ” go ye once a week to a hidden place hopeing the world will turn up to listen to one of you speaking about an interesting topic from a christian perspective that they may or may not apply in their life and hopefully come back.
    We don’t go to the church ,we are the church, that sometimes comes together in a building to talk about God, pray for each other, sing and be built up in fellowship etc with one another to help us forfill our calling and mission in the world.
    I like a sign I saw one day screwed up above the door of a church on the way out……

    God bless all.

    Grant Sutton

    PS when working with Andrew Strom I always liked one if his sayings when we were preaching in a Church.
    ” When we leave today. The Church has left the building”

  50. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5 NASB)

    and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1 Peter 2:24 NASB)

    When Jesus was on the cross He became sin for everyone who has lived, is living or will ever live… 🙂

    He has purchased both forgiveness of sins and physical healing from sickness and disease for everyone on the planet… 🙂

    This is what Jesus accomplished in the Atonement… 🙂

    Thus Jesus has authority to forgive sins and also authority to heal all sickness and disease – He has already paid for this with His Blood (forgiveness of sins) and Body (healing of all sickness and disease)… 🙂

    We access what Jesus has provided both in terms of forgiveness of sins and also in terms of healing from sickness and disease by faith… 🙂

    When it comes time – “all the days ordained for me were written in Your Book before one of them came to be” – for us to die, we will die… 🙂

    When the Lord releases faith to us to believe for our healing from sickness and disease then we will access what He has already purchased – this provision – on the cross… 🙂

    The amazing thing is though that other people’s faith can also access this for us in the area of healing from sickness and disease… 🙂

    What a priviledge for us to show the world the love of God to them in offering the physical healing from sickness and disease purchased for them by Jesus to them by faith – our faith being the means that they experience God’s physical healing, Amen?

    Won’t this really convince them of the reality of God’s love for them and encourage them to make use of the more important provision of the forgiveness of sins which Jesus also provided on the cross?

    I believe this is God’s plan in healing and I believe that this is what Jesus demonstrated when He was on earth even before the cross – as He was the Lamb who was slain since the foundation of the world…

    Love you,


  51. Averyl Jul 11th 2013

    Here’s a couple of great sites I found this morning concerning the Church:




  52. Averyl Jul 11th 2013
  53. Its the same for the demonic – for all – and I mean all – Jesus has disarmed the powers and principalities making a public spectacle of them – triumphing over them on the cross…

    This means that He has authority over all demons and the accusations which the demons used to use were all based on the Law – the lists of commandments which were contrary to us…

    Jesus has now taken these out of the way – the accusations of the Law against us – so the demons have nothing to bind us with anymore…

    This is true for all – but only those who believe this experience it…

    All died with Jesus on the cross…

    All were set free…

    If they receive it by faith – with no works involved – it becomes their own – they practically experience the reality of it in their own lives – to the level that they receive it by faith – given to them by God…

    If someone never accepts the forgiveness of sins purchased for them on the cross by faith then they are not saved and will spend eternity in the lake of fire and brimstone…

    If someone never accepts the healing from sickness and disease and the freedom from demonic entities which Christ purchased for them on the cross by faith then that person will not experience that practically in their lives here and now on earth…

    The examples of Job and Paul are both “special cases”… 🙂

    Smith Wigglesworth also went through this… 🙂

    He was “healing others” but going back after a meeting and passing gallstones… 🙁

    The “general rule” in healing is as I’ve explained above – God can do whatever He likes with the “special cases” and gives grace to trust Him in these cases…

    There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus… 🙂

  54. Romans 12:3
    For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    Every man has faith according to this scripture, it then becomes a matter of growing in faith and learning to walk in faith.

    2 Corinthians 5:7
    For we walk by faith, not by sight

    Faith is just taking God at His Word and Believing it.

    There are no special cases with God.

    He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.


  55. watchful Jul 11th 2013

    Gary B, that’s just what I was about to say, that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He still heals today, amen, and praise Him for it. From what I gather Jesus heals but the Father still retains the right of sovereignty in a person’s life. I agree that Job and Paul are not special cases, it was written for our instruction because that is how the Lord will deal with anyone. Job is an OT example of someone being born again, and Paul’s flesh was just the same and prone to the same weaknesses as anybody.

    As I understand it when someone has the gift of healing, or any other gifts, this is the Lord displaying that aspect of His manifold wisdom and authority to the powers and principalities so anybody will have more consistent results in whatever the area(s) of their gifting(s), to the glory of God.

  56. Jda016 Jul 11th 2013

    Amen Watchful,

    I see God’s sovereignty and His amazing mercy working in people’s lives. I know that God wants us to walk in far greater levels of faith than we have yet known. I know that if we walked in more faith without unbelief, we would see so many more healed.

    I can’t help but think though that God does allow some infirmities and sicknesses to stay because of the character that it works in people’s lives. This character brings glory to God even as I see Examples like Joni Erickson Tada and Madame Guyon who are and were a testament to God’s strength, not because they were healed, but because they love and loved God and inspired so many.

    Testimonies of healing are wonderfully encouraging and yet someways they make me sad, because it appears that God wants to heal everyone else but my own family. Doubt, unbelief, and sin, we have all prayed about and confessed and prayed for years to find an end to suffering and yet it tarries.

    I think of how long so many people suffered with their afflictions and ailments before they got healed. All we ever hear is the moment that they got set free, and praise God for that! But we don’t often hear how many years they suffered before that healing came.

    Some believe God doesn’t allow any sickness and that it is all from sin and the devil and that He wants everyone healed, others believed that anything you get is just God’s will. I think I believe it is somewhere in the middle ( That’s not even including God’s time table for things).

    I think of Hebrews 11 specifically verse 32 and on that talks about all those that were gloriously and miraculously healed and delivered and then it talks about all those who were afflicted, tortured, martyred, and did not receive the promise. I can only conclude that God works and allows both things.

  57. We live here on earth amidst fallen creation .

    What we can gain here on earth is reconciliation back to God through the blood of Lord Jesus Christ that gives us entry to the eternity of the Kingdom of God, and assurance that we wont suffer the second death.

    The fruit of the spirit of one who has been truly reconciled through Christ , is that the cares and concerns of this world , or their own personal sufferings are no longer a concern to them , for the Spirit of their Lord that lives within them has them rejoicing in their sufferings as He did before them, as they have their eyes on the prize that they have taken hold of through Christ Jesus.

    Our Lord in His wisdom, sees the true motives of our hearts , and if he sees contradiction within us in any area that effects our attitudes , then He will do what ever it takes to bring us to a place where we are free from contradiction , for the only thing we take with us from this world into the Kingdom of God , when our weak and decaying bodies of flesh and blood have passed away , is our refined spirit and soul that is the finished work of the Holy Spirit.

    Now does the clay have the right to question the Potter ?

    Why do we humans always blame our perceived limitations in this world on God ?

    Why do we measure the Kingdom of God against what we see in flesh and blood ?

    Can we not trust that He knows what is best for our lives ?

    To become as a child , is to accept the things we don’t understand , and to trust that our lives are in His hands .

    Many of the issues that we humans struggle with at times , come back to not having truly surrendered the plots and plans of our inquiring minds unto Lord Jesus Christ .

    This creates a stalemate between us and our Lord , in that the more we demand to know the more He steps back until we gain an attitude adjustment , and come to Him in simple humility and faith , free from the ways of this world in terms of how we think , and the attitudes that come with this .

    Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
    Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
    Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

  58. Watchful

    I was thinking about this earlier and I cannot recall that anyone who came to Jesus suddenly became a special case that Jesus did not heal.

    The only placed mentioned in the gospels is when Jesus was in His own hometown and He could do no mighty work there because of their unbelief.

    As soon as people heard that Jesus was in the area, they brought all of the sick and demon possessed to Him to be healed.

    I find it interesting that the Centurion’s sent someone to Jesus and said he was not worthy that the Lord should come to his house but to just speak a word and his servant would be healed.

    Jesus commented that He had not found great faith not even in Israel. The servant was healed on the centurions faith.

    Luke 7:2-10 verse 9: 9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”


  59. Lightning Storm Jul 11th 2013

    Thy Will be done IN EARTH,


    Why pray something that isn’t believed?

  60. Lightning Storm ,

    It comes down to how we see ;

    Thy Kingdom come !

    This is a point of difference between many believers.

    On one hand we have the Kingdom is in hand through the work of the Holy Spirit in us .

    Then we have the coming return of our Lord which puts an end to the opposing ruling authorities here on earth .

    So the full measure of Thy will be done wont be completed until the return of our Lord who will force His authority over all of this earth , there by establishing the full measure of His will be done .

    In the mean time we have the ability through Him and the Holy Spirit to walk in His will amongst a fallen creation ,,

    ,,however He will take us down first to the foot of the cross, to a place of total surrender unto Him , before we can walk in the full measure of His Spirit ,,,,,,, and how we love to resist this fighting Him every step of the way with our limited human intellect , that we have elevated into a God like status.

  61. Lightning Storm Jul 11th 2013

    Amen GaryB……you hit the target.

    ALL that God has for us, the abundant Life, is ONLY RECEIVED BY FAITH (which is Trust, Believe, Dependence, Confidence)

    Preachers have done a dis-service in the past by telling people they didn’t get healed because of a lack of FAITH.

    In REALITY, the people had plenty of FAITH that God is ABLE to heal them.

    But the abundant Life comes with ABIDING IN Jesus by Faith 24/7……ABIDING IN Jesus is synonymous with Walking by Faith/Walking by the Holy Spirit. Gal 5.

    There are so many people who THINK they are Walking by the Spirit, yet when I ask them to explain what that means and how do you do it………they have no answer or the answer is unscriptural mumbo jumbo.

    The abundant Life is a SUPERNATURAL CONSEQUENCE of ABIDING in HIM….the Vine.

    Most christians are needy and praying for their needs when the scripture states, that if you seek after HIM AND HIS KINGDOM and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS…..THEN your needs will be met by Him.

    Mat 6:33 NKJV – “But seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things shall be added to you.

    Father is not going to meet our needs when we have IDOLS IN OUR HEARTS OR UNBELIEF IN OUR HEARTS.
    Father is not going to meet our needs if He is an afterthought, a god that bails people out, when we didn’t CONSULT WITH HIM ABOUT HIS WILL IN EVERY DECISION OF LIFE.
    People have UNBELIEF that their ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD wants to RULE OVER THEM in every decision of their life.
    And yet that is what we “signed up” for when we wanted Jesus Christ to be OUR KING.
    And that is exactly what the definition of a BOND SERVANT is.

    There is the LAW of reaping what we sow…..that LAW was set up by the Father and it is still just as real as the LAW OF GRAVITY and the 1st LAW of THERMODYNAMICS.

    Like BEGETS Like.
    Flesh BEGETS Flesh
    Spirit BEGETS Spirit.

    Then when our needs aren’t met, we make up a NEW THEOLOGY to explain it away.
    Instead of believing that God is Who He said He is and God can do what He said He can do……..and since I am FINITE AND HAVE CORRUPTION IN MY SOUL……I MUST BE THE PROBLEM.

  62. Lightning Storm Jul 11th 2013

    The Kingdom of God exists WITHIN THE BORN AGAIN ONLY.

    It is the EKKLESIA.

    The Kingdom of HEAVEN will be taking over the globe and eliminating the kingdom of darkness and renewing the earth. Rev 21.

  63. Lightning Storm Jul 11th 2013

    We can only release the abundant Life within us, the BENEFIT of God’s RULE, to the DEGREE that HIS RULE is OVER US.

    If God rules over every area of your life, your life will benefit.

    Rom 12:1 NKJV – I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your REASONABLE service.

    Rom 12:2 NKJV – And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    We are told to be transformed and to renew our minds….to what? TO HAVE THE MIND OF JESUS CHRIST.
    What does that mean exactly?

    What is in our minds/brains???
    Our brains are the CENTERS where EVERY KIND OF THOUGHT originates and where OUR WILLS (decision making); AND OUR EMOTIONS originate.

    So to have the mind of Christ, we must know what He thinks, we must know what His decisions are, and we must know how He feels about all the mundane things we call “daily life” as we know it. THIS IS ACTIVE INTIMACY WITH OUR GOD.

  64. Faith is a gift from God… If God gives you faith to believe for your healing then you will be healed (as the healing has already been purchased on the cross)… 🙂

    Paul pleaded with Jesus to take away his “thorn in the flesh” his “messenger of Satan to buffet me” and Jesus said, “No” (God had His reasons and that’s good enough for me)… 🙂

    Was Paul given by the Lord faith to believe for his healing in this instance?

    No, I don’t believe he was – he was given the Lord’s assurance that His Grace was sufficient… 🙂

    Was this Paul’s fault that he wasn’t given this faith?

    No, I don’t believe it was…

    It was a “special case” and he trusted God in it while being used by the Lord to heal others… 🙂

  65. Paul was not a special case , he was simply another imperfect vessel that was used in service to Christ , carrying a thorn to keep him from becoming to proud and falling into self righteous deception .

  66. Any one being used as a servant for our Lord , walks a constant line between the will of Christ and the temptations of the old foe through the things of this world and the flesh that remains, that causes us to want do a times the things we know we ought not.

    Our Lord knows us better than we do .
    If He allows certain things in our life, to keep a balance , to prevent us from falling into deception through the unteachable blind spots that remain in our self righteous endeavors ,,,

    then who are we to question Him or to label things as special cases .

    Does Christ within us , question Himself , making exceptions ?

    I don’t think so !

  67. There is an old Leonard Cohen song with a priceless line ;

    ” forget your perfect offering ,,,

    celebrate the cracks,,cos its the cracks that let the light in “

  68. Hebrews 11:39-40

    The Message (MSG)

    39-40 Not one of these people, even though their lives of faith were exemplary, got their hands on what was promised. God had a better plan for us: that their faith and our faith would come together to make one completed whole, their lives of faith not complete apart from ours.

  69. Kevin wrote:
    Paul was not a special case , he was simply another imperfect vessel that was used in service to Christ , carrying a thorn to keep him from becoming to proud and falling into self righteous deception .quote……………………………..

    Amen Kevin.
    I don’t understand why people will overlook hundreds of passages where the Lord is speaking on healing and faith. God is not a man that He should lie.

    The traditional churches use this mindset to minister doubt by putting their faith in Paul’s thorn. If you look around most do not believe in healing even though they say they do, but they always claim they must have Paul’s thorn.

    I have been going back through the Gospels and paying close attention to what Jesus is telling His disciples. There has been so much doubt and confusion that has been ministered to people over the years that many would rather make excuses then to seek the Lord.

    That is why the Lord told us, seeing they see but cannot see and hearing they hear but cannot hear. That passage is being fulfilled in these end times.


  70. Hi,

    As the Lord clearly states…..
    The Holy Spirit reminds us of what Jesus has said and leads us in the Truth.
    I just wish people would fill up on Gods word and renew their mind through the washing of the Word.
    How can the Holy Spirit bring into rememberance what Jesus has said if there are very little of Gods word in our heart to draw from.
    God says he has written His laws on the hearts of men and no doubt the Holy Spirit uses them to convict the world of sin.
    How is it many constantly look to other peoples opinion of the bible rather than reading it for themselves.
    Its like convincing yourself you have read and know the contents of any book because you read the foreword on the cover or a bookreview on it rather than the actual book.
    I remember looking at just a bit of the Bible as a non christian and not really making much of it.
    Without me knowing it , it had sowed seeds and I became a bornagain believer about 18months later because I told a person who was heavily into witchcraft ,it was against God and they needed Jesus (when I wasn’t a christian).
    Out of that encounter with darkness I faced a choice.
    In no time I knew what a wretched sinner I was rather than the worldy good person lie I had hid behind all my life to avoid giving my life to Jesus.
    THE GOSPEL DEMANDS SURRENDER from your ways to HIS WAYS, your life to HIS LIFE, your plans for HIS PLAN.
    The WORD declares the people perish thru lack of knowledge.
    We need His understanding by renewing ourselves in the word etc.
    It not enough to merely acknowledge the Lord in what we do, He has to be present in what we do because we are led by Him.
    Ask and He will do this , as we surrender to Him.

    God bless,

    Grant Sutton,

    [email protected]

  71. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    Paul’s thorn has been debated for decades that I know of.

    Most theologians cannot agree as to whether this thorn is a physical disease or not.

    It is quite clear in this verse that it is a DEMONIC ATTACK TO KEEP PAUL FROM PRIDE.

    2Cr 12:7 NKJV – And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

    1) to lift or raise up over some thing

    2) to lift one’s self up, be exalted, be haughty

    3) to carry one’s self haughtily to, behave insolently towards one

  72. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    There are some people who actually don’t really want to be healed. It has become their identity.

    They have a “victim mentality” that sometimes leads to wearing your suffering, wounds of the heart, abuse, or trials as a BADGE OF HONOR.

    This is quite common in the world today…and christians are not immune to it.

    There’s also the “I’M A SURVIVOR” identity which is rooted in PRIDE and setting yourself up as your own god.

    Self-Pity and False Humility are also rooted in PRIDE.

    PRIDE HAS MANY MASKS. Jer 17:9 NKJV – “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

    Jer 17:5 NKJV – Thus says the LORD: “CURSED CURSED CURSED CURSED [is] the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.

    Jer 17:6 NKJV – For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, [In] a salt land [which is] not inhabited.

    Jer 17:7 NKJV – “Blessed [is] the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD.

    Jer 17:8 NKJV – For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit.

  73. watchful Jul 12th 2013

    Amen, amen Kevin, I know you are speaking truth because it makes my heart sing. You are speaking by the Holy Spirit.

    The Lord healed me of an infirmity once, by myself lying on the couch. Yet another infirmity I still have with me. If the Lord my God wants to perfect His strength in my weakness then I rejoice in my infirmity and would rather boast in it and testify that His grace is sufficient. Surely there is the aspect that we are to humble ourselves under His mighty hand…………..

  74. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    Because the Lord REQUIRES the born again to pay a HIGH price for the abundant Life…….perhaps THAT is why there is resistance to the unregenerate receiving healing WITHOUT COST.

    That’s a boatload of sin and iniquity right there.

  75. watchful Jul 12th 2013

    Roger, thank you for that link to Torben’s book….I haven’t finished reading it all yet, but from what I have read so far it sounds like he has gotten a hold of the true gospel and the Lord confirmed it with his gift. I pray the Lord to keep him and his companions always, and that he would finish the race that is set before Him….in simplicity!

  76. Lightning Storm, it would seem then that The Lord values a humble attitude before Him much greater than deliverance from a lifetime of horrible demonic attacks.

    We are saved by Grace , that means God does not have to save anyone and He is still good and just. He does not , nor will He ever owe us anything, like healing or deliverance or even forgiveness. What He does for us is undeserved , no amount of faith that you have means that God now has to do what you believe for. People can get to the place were they think they are deserving of something from God and lose their humility before Him. They try to use bible verses to force God’s hand or plead their faith in Him as a kind of reason that now The Lord owes it to them ,because they did their part and now God has to do His part.

    If you got everything you wanted from The Lord Jesus you would be so full of pride it would kill your soul. It would be better to obey the Lord in a humble way and receive what The Father chooses to give you than to try to figure out how to get more from God. It would be better to tell people they deserve to suffer Hell before you pray for Jesus to heal them. The Lord is testing all our hearts
    to see if we truly love Him. A life of faith in Jesus as Lord will include much suffering, Jesus warned us that it would.

  77. watchful Jul 12th 2013

    Bless you JeffM.

  78. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    Sacrificing your entire life to the Lord’s will IS suffering.

    Until it turns to Joy and the abundant Life.

  79. I am the Tammy who gave the testimony of God healing the pain in my knees through Torben. I have read all of the comments above and some make me very joyous in the Lord and some make me sad knowing that Pharisees are alive and well today.

    If you are interested in reading further, I would like to share with you some of my experiences I have had with the Lord during my lifetime. I got saved when I was a child and I really do not remember me ever having a time when I did not wholeheartedly love the Lord. I have backslid many times and other times I had such an anointing that miracles seemed to take place almost on a daily basis. Prayers answered immediately, fevers instantly gone, backuped toilets instantly cleared and yes, even dead bugs brought back to life (I was THAT zealous)

    Most people who know me, call me a bit crazy, my children however know that Momma loves God and that God answers her prayers. They also know that sometimes God takes a lot longer than Momma thought and although she may get discouraged at times, her faith in God makes her strong and somehow, someway God always comes through.

    The day the Lord took away my knee pain I was feeling especially down. I have had a severe trial for many years now and it appears that the more I believe, the more I trust, the more I confess things appear to get worse. Yet somehow, miraculously, God always takes care of things for me behind the scenes. A little thing here, a little thing there, all of them could be considered coincidences. But I know that my Daddy is watching out for me.

    Anyway, that day the Lord took away my pain I prayed in the morning asking him to send me some encouragement that day. When I saw the original link, I was so impressed and that lead me to more of Torben videos. As always, my heart was full of belief and knowing that God could easily do this thing no problem, But I have to be honest with you all and let you know that I really was not expecting anything.

    When Torben said “Check it” Check” I checked my knee and was so shocked the pain was gone! I sat there stunned for few minutes thinking..okay… is this real? And I decided that I was not just going to sit there thinking, I was going to get up and walk and test it! Oh My Gosh! I ran up and down the stairs, bent my knees in all kinds of ways. I sat on the floor Indian style for the first time in years and the pain was completely gone! AND it is still gone today! I know it has only been a week but trust me in this, this knee pain hardly left me, and now every morning I can sit Indian style in my chair and drink my coffee before I go to work. To me, it is a minor miracle because I believe God can do so much more, but he gave me the encouragement I needed that day to just keep going. To let me know that he was still there and is working behind the scenes, to fulfill the promise and the destiny he has for my life.

    Over the past two nights I have read the comments and have seen many comments abut Paul’s thorn. The word of God in unclear on what that thorn was and many believe it was a sickness of sorts. But what if, what *IF* Paul’s thorn was a sin he could not get rid of?
    What if Paul had a sin that he begged God to remove and the Lord replied “My power is made perfect in weakness”? That would change a whole lot of things now wouldn’t it?

    Many can say that would have been impossible for Paul to sin being he was so zealous for the Lord, with his training and background, we all know Paul followed the Law with zeal, even going to the extent of killing those who followed “the way”. But we have to remember that when Jesus came he took the written law, exposed it and showed men their true hearts.

    No longer was not killing just a commandment but Jesus brought it to a deeper level saying if you hate anyone you have committed murder. That is a big Ouch for many people.

    Just like the rich young ruler who did everything by the book, Jesus exposed him by his heart. Could it be that Paul had some hidden sin he desperately wanted to get rid of? And if that were the case, it pretty much follows the pattern of so many great men in the Bible, who loved the Lord, failed in the flesh but God used their flesh for his purpose anyway.

    Do not ever condemn or doubt anyone who is being used by the Lord. So Turben is going to Walmart? Big Deal! At least he is willing to go. If Jesus came here today do you think he would start in the church or in the streets and bars? My guess is that he would be in the streets and the bars.

    Many Blessings,

  80. Getting back to the video of Torben ,

    Judging / discerning the Spirit working through him , rather than the method or way in which he works , he shows the anointing of Lord Jesus Christ in the current footage of him and in the footage from ten years back.

    The great thing about Torben is he appears to be uncomplicated , with no hidden agenda , nor does he appear to be self promoting.

    The whole way of working through TV etc is not a path that I’m lead to walk , however all we can do is to judge / discern the fruit of the spirit , not the methods or appearance.


    Regarding non believers being healed more easily than believers , this is what I have seen all throughout my walk with Christ.

    Healing is often used to bring non believers to know Christ.

    When we do truly know Him , should we have any fear of physical death ?

    Should we be concerned for any lack in this life ?

    Should we be concerned about what state our temporal physical bodies are in ?

    Cos if we are concerned about any of the above , then there, we will find the very obstacles to receiving the thing we seek , yet have not received ,,

    ,,,for to seek first the Kingdom of God is to be free from all the bondages of limited thinking that bind us in the ways and desires of this world.

    When we truly have a revelation of Lord Jesus Christ , and know Him personally , then and only then will we truly be able to rejoice in our sufferings , without any underlying grumbling or self serving victim card playing agendas.

    and when we get to that point, we are in this world but not of it , and as we live in a way that seeks first the Kingdom of God , all else will be added , however be aware that the desires of our heart that are added , will be the will of Christ that has been put in our heart !

    At that stage we will be one with Him in spirit and truth.

    In the mean time we are all a work in progress , and if we ” celebrate the cracks that let the light in ” then He will by His light and love transform us and lead us into a deeper understanding of His plans and purposes for our life .

  81. I was very blessed by your testimony in your post above Tammy… 🙂

  82. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    I notice that no one has mentioned the 40 Day Fast that Torben did just prior to this explosion of healings and new births.

    If you look at Matthew chapter 4, Jesus fasted for 40 days; then overcame Satan and AFTER that there was an explosion of deliverances and healings.

    The 40 Day Fast usually brings absolute surrender and crucifies the flesh to a degree that otherwise might take years.

    Mat 17:21 KJV – Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

    Mar 9:29 KJV – And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

  83. fabakary Jul 12th 2013

    Good points “lightening Storm ” even food as important as it is can be a form of “Idolatry” , like gluttony. If we cannot leave just some hours from food from time to time , just to be devoted to our Lord eating the heavenly food in some seasons, that may mean we are being control by food and it has become an Idol. The Lord want to free us from all forms of Idolatry .Yes the Lord himself said “this kind going not except by prayer and fasting” because party being refresh through devotion is to destroy unbelief and doubts and Having Faith no mountain can stand His presence.

  84. Tammy, what possible reason could you have for accusing Paul of having secret sin his whole life? Putting ‘maybe’ in front of it does make it ok to say that about someone. You slander Paul and also slander The Lord’s good name by implying that Jesus does not take away our sin and the power of sin to make us keep sinning when we repent.

    Hebrews 10:26-29

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

    27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

    28 Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

    29 How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?

  85. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    Yes, JeffM, the Apostles had sin natures.

    As long as you have a sin nature, you will have many opportunities to commit sin in thought, word, and deed.

    The only ONE Who did not have a sin nature is JESUS CHRIST, yet He had many opportunities to commit sin also.

    If you read the verses that I posted earlier….PAUL HIMSELF states what the thorn is for…..to keep him from becoming haughty.
    So it is quite evident to Paul that Father felt it necessary to keep him from acting out on “something” that he still has a “weakness” for.

    Before his new birth, Paul was filled with Religious Pride, Self-Righteousness, Arrogance, UNBELIEF, Murder…..etc etc.

    It is quite clear in this verse that it is a DEMONIC ATTACK TO KEEP PAUL FROM PRIDE.

    2Cr 12:7 NKJV – And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

    1) to lift or raise up over some thing

    2) to lift one’s self up, be exalted, be haughty

    3) to carry one’s self haughtily to, behave insolently towards one

  86. Lightning Storm Jul 12th 2013

    I run into many christians who do not know what part of them was given NEW BIRTH.

    Our spirit, which is the essence of who we are as a person, is given NEW BIRTH. NOT THE SIN NATURE.

    Our spirit is who we are, it is my PERSON, therefore I have become a NEW CREATION.

    The SIN NATURE within my soul, which is my nature/character, will NEVER BE BORN AGAIN.


    This is why absolute surrender and crucifying the flesh (sin nature) is IMPERATIVE.

    The 1st thing that the Holy Spirit desires to cleanse and heal within us are the WOUNDS OF THE HEART. Otherwise known as BUTTONS…..in the world. “they really know how to push my BUTTONS”

    2nd thing that the Holy Spirit desires to crucify within us are the IDOLS OF THE HEART.

    3rd thing to crucify is our BESETTING SINS.

    And during this process, the SELF is dying a slow death.

  87. One of the ladies from our local congregation prayed for one of her friends who had severe emphysema from years of smoking and she prayed that she would be completely healed whether she stopped smoking or not – taking away the fear of having to perform from the lady she was praying for…

    Anyway, the lady who was prayed for testified at our local congregation last Sunday that she has been completely healed of her desire to smoke – that she hasn’t been depressed or heavy and that she’s had energy and she looked radiant… 🙂

    Praise the Lord… 🙂

  88. 1 John 3:9-10

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father. 10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God’s children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God.

    Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.

    John 5:18-21

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    18 We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning; on the contrary, the Son born of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him.

    19 We know that we are from God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the Evil One.

    20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment, so that we may know who is genuine; moreover, we are united with the One who is genuine, united with his Son Yeshua the Messiah. He is the genuine God and eternal life.

    21 Children, guard yourselves against false gods!

  89. Hi JeffM,

    Have you got anything which you’d like me to pray for you about?

    Love you,


  90. I don’t believe Christians still have a sin nature. That is a church doctrine of men.

    We have been crucified with Christ and buried with Him in Baptism. The old sin nature is dead in Christ.

    Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

    Romans 6:3-5

    3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,


  91. It’s the unconditional acceptance of God to us in the Beloved which sets us free from our addictions – nothing else will… 🙂

  92. Yes Gary, we have our new creation which is us and “sin within me” which is not us… 🙂

  93. Andrew J Horton, well that is a simple question, but I sure don’t have a simple answer. Do you believe that prayer changes things?, so more prayer would mean more changes then. I don’t believe that prayer changes things , God changes things. We don’t need ‘more’ God to see more changes, so if you want to pray to help bring change in my life , it don’t work that way. Prayer is how we can know Jesus in a real way and can know God’s heart. If you want to know what is in God’s heart toward me then please do pray for me, and pray for His will to be done. I see prayer as a way to love others ,not a way to change anything ,God does that.

    But if anyone calls Him ‘Lord ‘ but won’t do all He commands then they just committed another sin by praying. So I have to say if you don’t obey Him it shows contempt toward Him to call Him ‘Lord’, like when people follow the common protestant method of group prayer. The Lord Jesus wants to hear ‘I will do what you tell me to do Lord’ ,before you have anything else to say, it means ‘I love you Lord ‘.

  94. Is there anything in your life JeffM which the Lord has shown you that He wants to change that I can agree with you in prayer for? Love you, Andrew

  95. AJH,
    Sounds like your a little confused there. God is not the author of confusion. 🙂


  96. I’m not confused Gary… 🙂

  97. AJH,
    Could you show me at least two passages where sin nature is mentioned in our lives?

    Let every word be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

    Just curious brother wondering if you know where they are. 🙂


  98. Where have I said we still have a sin nature in our lives Gary? 🙂

  99. AJH

    “sin within me” which is not us… quote…………..

    From that statement I thought you was saying we have a sin nature in us.

    We can be tempted to sin but we have the power of the Holy Spirit in us to Overcome.


  100. Hi Gary,

    As born again believers we do not have two natures… 🙂

    We are not spiritual schizophrenics… 🙂

    The old has gone, the new has come… 🙂

    I have one nature, I am a new creation in Christ… 🙂

    The old was crucified with Christ on the cross and died that day… 🙂

    I inherited the reality of that death the moment I believed (Romans 6)…

    We do however still have “sin within me” or “the body of this death” (Romans 7) but because this is no longer us – as Paul specifically says – we are now no longer under condemnation (Romans 8)… 🙂

    This – “sin within me” or “the body of this death” is what is decaying and becoming less and less practically as the Holy Spirit within our new heart and our new spirit and our righteous soul becomes practically more and more through us – this is the process sometimes called sanctification… 🙂

    Perhaps you’d like to listen to the following chat I just gave on YouTube which further explains this… 🙂


    Love you,


  101. Hi All,

    With regard to Pauls thorn in the flesh.
    I won’t go into this in length here but you can do a search about it and find out details should you wish.
    Many of those who have a remarkable healing ministry now and in the past hold the view based on Greek gramma of the New Testament that the thorn corrected translated meaning and as found elsewhere in the bible is actually a buffeting by a Satanic messenger. This messenger working thru others to cause problems and strife for Paul whereever he went.
    In others words this thorn was a personality rather than a sickness comming against him.
    Paul talks about the abundance of persecutions he went through and the fruit of this for him was that he learnt to be content and have faith etc.
    Another Greek scholar points to Pauls letters to the Churchs and in a latter letter shows from the Greek gramma that this torn in the flesh must have been taken away because in the Greek it refers to it in the past tense if you follow correct gramma rule.
    God talks about every dot and tittle etc concerning His word.
    This can refer to the finest grammacial point and translation of His Word that you find in the original langauges.
    Unfortunately these languages are far to precise for our english language and some of the meaning or the dots and the tittles of the gramma gets lost in translation.
    The word that we translate as love in english has way more meanings in Greek and those are obvious ones.. check it out if you have trouble believeing me.
    Some even suppose Pauls torn was he had an eyesight problem because according to them he wrote large letters.
    However the arguement can be made fron the Greek gramma that the large letters refer to the amount he wrote not the size of the text.
    Anyway if we constantly look to find scripture to match our experience and self doctrine rather than scripture form our doctrine and become our experience we will be led astray.
    Make sure we hear right in the first place, and then when you have heard right go and do it, to avoid deception.

    Consistantly those that have held that sickness is of the enemy and that it is the will of God to heal the sick see people healed.
    And consistantly those who hold doubts about it see less a degree of healing.
    This should encourage us to press into God to know Him more because theres more we need to learn from Him.
    We are all on a journey.

    God bless you all, with love your brother in Christ.

    Grant Sutton

    [email protected]

  102. AJH,

    Watched your video, I liked your accent but I could not understand some words you were saying. When talking about the ministers was you saying they learned the risks? or they learned to rest? There was several other words you used I could not understand what you were saying.

    I agree with what you saying here for the most part, telling it in person is better then writing it.

    Lord Bless,

  103. they learned to rest… 🙂

  104. Andrew J Horton, I cant agree with anyone unless The Father has shown me that they are His. I obey The Lord , all those who do not obey Him can’t fool me about being in Christ with any doctrine that replaces ‘ I obey The Lord’. What Jesus started did not become Christianity the religion ,the protestant and catholic churches are all not the same thing as Christ’s church, I am done with the false and will not stop following Jesus for the sake of people like you who are full of mixture. The Father in me refuses to agree with you on the things of God. The God I serve calls you to repent and listen to Jesus, doing all that He commands.

  105. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Anything contrary to the nature of God, or to the character and conformity of his will, is sin.

    Paul states “whatever is not of faith (trust in God ) is sin.”

    It’s not just our actions that make us sinners, otherwise, I could have been born through two human born-again parents (who according to your theory, have no sin natures) and my actions would be sinless. Therefore, no need for Jesus Christ, because I would be just like Jesus Christ…sinless all my life.

    One can be a sinner without showing any actions outwardly.

    Sin is being selfish, one can have a wrong attitude and desires contrary to God and not act upon it.
    Jesus said to have these thoughts in our heart is still sin even if not done outwardly.
    He stated in the sermon of the mount that one did not just break the law from their outward actions but it started on the inside.
    What made one a transgressor of the law is the INTENT of our heart.
    Even if one did not commit the physical act of murder, if they harbored hatred toward someone in their heart this is where sin begins.
    They have already broken the law and are guilty.

    This is why all of mankind are sinners we all fall short of God’s perfect standard inside and out, in our nature and in our deeds.

  106. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Thank you Grant Sutton for that research information.

  107. watchful Jul 13th 2013

    Beloved brothers and sisters in the Lord, it has become clear to me from the scripture that what Paul had been given was an infirmity. And further to that he goes on to say that he would boast and glory in his infirmities because God’s strength is made perfect in weakness…….this is a truth for all of us, not just special cases. Overcoming doesn’t mean a pain free life, rather it means the love, joy, peace and presence of the Lord in the midst of our sufferings which are achieving for us a glory that far outweighs the suffering!

    2 Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

    2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

    But it’s like what was said to those who were slaves, if you can obtain your freedom (in this case, healing) then do so, but if not don’t let it trouble you.

    And another amen to you JeffM. As your sister in the Lord I’m very blessed to see men of God rising up around here, Roger, Kevin, Jeff, Randall and any others I might have missed! Praise the Lord, I have hope for the humble remnant church in the wilderness! Bless them mightily Father and fill them with even more of your Spirit and the power of your might! I feel like singing that song, Glory, glory hallelujah, your truth is marching on!

  108. The scripture says Paul was given a thorn (affliction, pain) IN the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet him.

    Paul had an evil spirit IN his flesh that caused him pain and he pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away from him, but the Lord gave him grace to bear it.

    And yes a spirit filled believer of Jesus can have an evil spirit in the flesh or body while the Holy Spirit dwells inside the spiritual heart of man. I’m speaking by personal experience, the Lord delivered me from many evil spirits and darkness after I was filled with the Spirit.

  109. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Strong’s Number: g769 Greek: astheneia


    lit., “want of strength” (a, negative, sthenos, “strength”), “weakness,” indicating inability to produce results, is most frequently translated “infirmity,” or “infirmities;”
    in Rom 8:26, the RV has “infirmity” (AV, “infirmities”);
    in 2Cr 12:5, 9, 10, “weaknesses” and in 2Cr 11:30, “weakness” (AV, “infirmities”);

    To bear trials and troubles Rom 8:26
    2 Cor 11:30; 2 Cor 12:5, 9 the mental states in which this weakness manifests itself.

    Rom 8:26 KJV – Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities (WEAKNESSES): for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

  110. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Right out of Paul’s mouth…it is an attack of Satan…”to buffet me”

    Mar 14:65 KJV – And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to BUFFET him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

    2Cr 12:7 KJV – And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to BUFFET me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

    Strong’s Number: g2852 Greek: kolaphizo

    signifies “to strike with clenched hands, to buffet with the fist” (kolaphos, “a fist”), Mat 26:67; Mar 14:65; 1Cr 4:11; 2Cr 12:7; 1Pe 2:20.

    Mat 26:67 KJV – Then did they spit in his face, and BUFFETED[2852] him; and others smote [him] with the palms of their hands ,

    1Cr 4:11 KJV – Even unto this present hour we both hunger , and thirst , and are naked , and are BUFFETED[2852] , and have no certain dwellingplace

    1Pe 2:20 KJV – For what glory [is it], if, when ye be BUFFETED[2852] for your faults , ye shall take it patiently ? but if, when ye do well , and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently , this [is] acceptable with God.

  111. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Who can be a MESSENGER OF SATAN?

    1) A demon/fallen angel
    2) A human being

  112. Hi JeffM,

    Just let me know if you ever do want me to agree with you in prayer for anything the Lord is dealing with in your heart…. 🙂

    Love you,


  113. What Satan really hates is us standing in the obedience of Jesus Christ – His Perfect Obedience to the Father – and sheltering under His Blood alone… 🙂

    Not having any righteousness of our own and not pretending that we do have any… 🙂

    Anyone who chooses to do this will be persecuted by Satan… 🙂

    But you know what?

    I’m not afraid of Satan…

    Because – and only because – I am sheltering under the Blood of Jesus Christ – and because I know that the evil one – as scripture tells me – cannot touch me… 🙂

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18 NASB)

    My new creation – which cannot sin – is perfectly obedient all the time to God… 🙂

    And the enemy hates this – that I know this and that he can’t get me “under condemnation” anymore…

    And this makes me love God so much that I use my freedom to surrender to God and to do what pleases Him – not because I have to but because I want to… 🙂

  114. Hi LightingStorm,

    You made some great points.
    If you get a chance try and find some of the Greek scholars look at wording it very interesting.
    I have found nearly everytime there is a subtle problem with doctrine in matters its where the translaters havent fully captured the Greek gramma into english .
    I think people need to take head of the Holy Spirit when He prompts us to look deeper into something in the word , usually its when theres more meanig in the original texts language etc.

    God bless,

    Grant Sutton

  115. Grant Sutton,

    Very good description of Paul’s thorn.

    I think when Paul was establishing churches he constantly had people coming behind him and tried to get the people to practice the “law”.

    Anyway what you shared is based on scripture and explains plainly what exactly the thorn is in Paul’s life.


  116. watchful Jul 13th 2013

    There is no doubt that Paul was referring to an infirmity or infirmities in those scriptures……….now we can look at the Greek and maybe debate as to what an infirmity is, however, I don’t think we can deny that the messenger of Satan had to do with some infirmity. Physical pain, other physiological problems can indeed buffet one, especially when there are demons involved, oh yes. But even in the midst of that buffeting one can experience the presence, power and voice of God, because Jesus has overcome and in Him we also overcome.

    2Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

    2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly THEREFORE will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    2Cr 12:10 THEREFORE I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

    This is not at all to deny healing, praying for the sick, or receiving healing, but just to say that the Lord is sovereign. Jesus only did what He saw the Father doing. And one thing the Father was doing was confirming the Word, ie, His Son, through healing, confirming the word of the prophets. But not even Jesus “healed thyself” and climbed down from His cross.

    Even if you were to take those verses by themselves and not relate them directly to Paul’s thorn in the flesh, just as general statements of truth by themselves tells us how God is sometimes glorified in infirmities. However it’s simple and clear that the “therefores” connect it to the messenger of Satan that Paul besought the Lord to remove.

    Definition of infirmities from blueletterbible:

    1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
    a) of the body
    1) its native weakness and frailty
    2) feebleness of health or sickness
    b) of the soul
    1) want of strength and capacity requisite
    a) to understand a thing
    b) to do things great and glorious
    c) to restrain corrupt desires
    d) to bear trials and troubles

    AV — infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1

    Just my thoughts, but I wonder about the severity of the health problems that Jesus healed. In those days without the medical care or social assistance programs we have today, in the harsh conditions and scrabble to survive even a relatively minor ailment as we consider it today could have a severe impact on one’s life. People were in desperate straits. Even a simple tooth cavity could lead to impaction, infection, sepsis and death. No antibiotics or dentists back then! A broken bone could leave one crippled for life without the benefit of x-rays and medical knowledge as to how to set it and splint it properly etc . And a person with a simple broken bone could starve to death meanwhile along with their family because of not being able to work his field or go out fishing or whatever occupation they had to earn their daily bread. Not too many office jobs back then. Not even Advil or Tylenol to ease the pain. I mean a miracle was literally their only hope!

  117. Paul’s thorn,
    You need to read it in the whole context it is in;

    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

    Paul is tell us here that a messenger of satan was sent to buffet him. This is why he said “concerning this”, he pleaded with the Lord to remove this thorn. He goes on to say that he learns in his weaknesses and infirmities. He is not saying this is an infirmary, this is reading into the text.

    Paul is clearly saying, a thorn in the flesh is given me, which is a messenger of satan. He explains himself in the same sentence.


  118. Smith Wigglesworth once said, that it would be harder one day for people to trust the Lord with all the remedies that they are coming out with.

    If God can create a human being out of a pile of dirt He is well able to heal a human body of any disease. God is God.

  119. Awe..Thank you Andrew 🙂

    I apologize that my words caused you to misunderstand what I was trying to say. I do not accuse Paul of any sin whatsoever, he was a man whole lived fully by the Spirit. Yet he was kind enough to share with us how he struggled with his sinful nature in spite of his strong desire to serve the Lord and you can clearly read this in Romans 7.

    The point I was trying to make is this…..

    I believe with all my heart that it is God desire for his people to live in good health. I base this on the words spoken in Deuteronomy and the actions of Jesus. The Word of God is perfectly clear on the compassion and mercy Jesus had on those who were ill and it clearly states he healed all who came to him. Yet man has taught for years, in spite of Jesus’s actions, that it is not God’s will to heal everybody based on Paul’s thorn.

    All I was trying to say is, God’s word does not say Paul’s thorn was a illness. Man has only assumed it.

    Grant, thank you for your study. I think you hit the nail right on the head 😉

  120. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013



    A student must look DEEPER into the Strong’s and Vines Dictionary to SEE WHICH DEFINITION IS BEING USED IN THE PARTICULAR VERSE YOU ARE STUDYING.

    The thorn in Paul IS NOT AN ILLNESS OR DISEASE.

    The CONTEXT of the word BUFFET in all the NT verses this word is used is never referring to illness or disease.

    According to the Greek language.

    We who use the English language cannot make up our own CULTURAL CHANGES TO THE GREEK LANGUAGE. That would be changing the written word of God from what He intended it to be.

  121. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013


    Going to blueletterbible is exactly where I got the definition in my previous posts.

    You did not look further by clicking on the “View Entry” under the word “Vines”.
    Nor did you look further and read the Thayer’s Lexicon under the words that you printed out here in your post.

    The scripture verses are listed individually.
    If you want context, then use the precise definition in context with the verse being studied.

    In my previous posts, I printed out the PRECISE DEFINITION for that PARTICULAR verse.

    You printed out the GENERAL DEFINITION, in which a person can PICK WHATEVER ONE WORKS FOR THEIR THEOLOGY.

  122. I just want to say to Lighting Storm, Andrew, Grant and Gary that you are men full of wisdom and your words and your teachings are blessing me in a mighty way! Thank you 🙂

  123. Claudia Jul 13th 2013

    What was the thorn from satan that was in Paul? Was it “ego/pride”?

    That for sure is a messenger from satan, whispering to the recipient praises that belong to God alone…….and we can all get stuck by it from time to time when we take credit for things that are orchestrated by YHWH.

  124. I understand what you’re saying Watchful, you could say that the thorn in the flesh did cause weakness and physical pain in Paul’s body, he pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away, so it must have been something painful, but it was the messenger of Satan that was causing the pain.

    Another thing to look at is how God uses evil spirits for His purposes.

  125. watchful Jul 13th 2013

    Amen Tyrone…….it was He who created the destroyer to work havoc……

    It seems there is agreement at least that Paul had an infirmity of some kind, so far so good. Regarding the word “infirmities”, I have also been looking to see where the same Greek word is used to try and get a better sense of it’s intended meaning and how Jesus dealt with it:

    Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:

    Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare [our] sicknesses.

    Luk 5:13 And he put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.

    Luk 5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

    Luk 5:15 But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.

    Lightning Storm, in your own words then, what are you saying an infirmity is? Not every bodily infirmity is sickness or disease. The point still stands does it not, that Jesus doesn’t necessarily heal every single time even when there is faith for the healing, since Paul was not healed. But that there is sometimes a higher purpose of His in our infirmities of any kind, which means we can sometimes glory in it and be overcomers in the midst of it! (as Paul did). Lightning Storm, with all due respect, if there ever comes a contradiction between Strong, Vine, Thayer (as worthy as I’m sure they are, or were ) and the Holy Spirit, I will have to believe the Holy Spirit since it is He upon whom I rely. The truth I received from Paul’s statements came simple and clear to me and on that I stand………and rest my case. 😉 Love and blessings to you and all…

  126. Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. (Job 2:7 NASB)


    Because God knew that Job could handle it…

    Why could Job handle it?

    Because he had been born again (he had a new heart, a righteous soul and a new spirit)…

    It really shook him up but he looked forward to Jesus’ coming and knew that in his body – even though his body was presently wracked with painful boils (sickness) – that he would see God…

    That is the triumph of faith – even though his body was wracked in pain (and sickness) he knew that in his body he would see God – Jesus – when He stood on the earth when He came back to reign and Job came back with Him…

    Was Job inflicted with sickness because of his sin?


    God knew that He could use Satan’s accusation both to bring glory to His Name and to further or deepen Job’s devotion to Him – rid Job of something “hiding” deep within him…

    We are not given the impression from scripture that Job’s sickness remained after the necessary lesson was learnt…

    I would argue that Job’s lesson and Paul’s lesson was identical…

    Self righteousness or pride – both were extremely close to God – as was Lucifer before the fall…

    Only extreme situations or circumstances can bring these things out – the Lord will allow whatever is necessary to accomplish this – but it is not His will that we are sick…

    When we have sickness we know that Jesus has paid for it all and owns it – he had authority on earth to forgive sins and heal sickness before the cross – and we know that it is His desire for our body to be preserved complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ…

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB)

    Even more strongly than His desire – He will also bring it to pass… 🙂

    But, timing is an issue…

    The daughter of Abraham who was bent over with sickness caused by a spirit was bound by Satan for eighteen years before Jesus released her…

    Did she have faith for her healing?

    Yes she did – as she was a daughter of Abraham…

    But she had to wait eighteen years until the time when she received her release…

    God has timing in all things…

    Which is why we are to be led by the Spirit in all things…

    The power was present for Jesus to heal some days and others not – as He had surrendered Himself to the Holy Spirit and wasn’t using the power of His Divinity to heal…

    Even those with the Gift of Miracles only have the power present to heal when the Holy Spirit wills it – it is not “on tap”… 🙂

    We too must be surrendered to God in all things – but it is His will to bless us and this blessing includes physical healing – what God has purchased for us in Second Adam must be better than what first Adam experienced…

    I personally am “going after” full healing for my body – the Lord has told me that He will heal me completely – I’m still waiting for my eyes to be healed, some eczema to be healed and my blocked nose to be healed – I’ve seen a lot of healing so far and He has preserved me – I believe that this is my birth right – but if He chooses to give me a Job or Paul experience then I’m OK with that – as the restoration of my soul – practically – through the renewing of my mind and the death of “sin within me” is more important than physical healing to me… 🙂

    But I believe that as my soul prospers – as He does this deep work in me – so will my body as John says in one of his epistles… 🙂

    The purpose of suffering is to bring surrender… 🙂

  127. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    Paul didn’t need HEALING….in his own words, Paul asked for DELIVERANCE.

    “DEPART FROM ME” Paul said.

  128. watchful Jul 13th 2013

    I’m done flogging this Lightning….I would draw your attention to one of the scrips I posted, but never mind, you can have the last word, because I don’t think you would be convinced to change your stance in any case. Let’s just shake hands so to speak, agree to disagree, and I hope there are no hard feelings. We are in agreement that the Lord God is well able to heal, so for that I am grateful. God bless….

  129. Lightning Storm Jul 13th 2013

    No problem, watchful.

    We can believe as we wish.

  130. watchful Jul 13th 2013

    If I believed what I wish about this Lightning Storm, I would believe your view of the matter.

  131. Hi Lightning Strom,

    Gosh when people refuse to take the original meaning of a word what can you do, as and example.
    Two hundred years ago if we said in English….
    “That man is very gay” it meant he was happy…
    Or “That man is wicked ” it meant he was bad.
    Today the meanings have changed re context etc do we apply the modern fashionable meaning to something written in 18th century language especially after it has been pointed out to us that the meaning has changed as per a dictionary
    If you keep calling a cat a dog long enough will it become a dog.
    No, its still a cat just everyone thinks its a dog because they call it one. Boy are they barking up the wrong tree.
    God has never told us to stop using our mind but rather to renew it through the washing of the Word.
    Sometimes Gods word may not agree with peoples tastes lor desires like pure water versus lemonade.
    Pure water is useful for many things and a must.
    Lemonade tastes great but I wouldn’t wash my hair or clothes in it.

    God bless,

    Grant Sutton

  132. Hi ,

    The point I was trying to make in my last post is that people try to make Gods word conform.
    You can’t, it is what it is, it conforms you otherwise you are makeing God in your own image.
    The world around is constantly advocateing for no absolutes.
    God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    Please lay aside ore concieved ideas and traditions and look at the whole of Gods counsell in the Word.
    As Paul said ” I did not shun to give the whole counsell of God in any matter”.
    We need all Gods counsell.

    God Bless,

    Grant Sutton

    [email protected]

  133. Lightning Storm Jul 14th 2013

    I’m hearing you Grant. Amen.

  134. watchful Jul 14th 2013

    I’m tired, but I’ll give it one last try………..first of all we need to realize that in the time of Jesus people did not have medical knowledge or names of illnesses/ailments that we have today. If someone was incapacitated, weak, loss of appetite, fever, feeling poorly, wasting away, dying, etc, the reasons/causes were often not known, whether it was sickness or disease or anything else. All they could observe were the outward effects of whatever the problem was, and often those outward effects would of course be weakness, disability, limitations. Today if someone exhibits symptoms of any kind they go to a doctor and get diagnosed, cancer, lupus, pneumonia, arthritis or whatever. A generic word like infirmity would not be needed. Any bodily problems today is called by it’s specific medical name.

    Now look at John 11 concerning Lazarus…….the words translated sick and sickness are the same greek word for infirmity (Strong’s #770 and 769). In Lazarus’ case he died from it.

    Jhn 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

    Jhn 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

    Jhn 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

    Jhn 11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

    Please check the definition on blueletterbible of the words for sick and sickness in these verses……maybe this will help, maybe not. Either way I really must leave it there (I hope).

  135. Lightning Storm Jul 14th 2013

    Dear Watchful, I’m afraid you are repeating the same error.
    I have copied ALL of Vines, but cannot copy Thayers for some reason.

    Please note the scriptures listed in each APPLICATION of the word definition being used in the context of that verse.

    Where you see the verses in John 11 that you are referring to….You will NOT find the Paul verses (2Cor 12)

    I have separated the definitions with a dotted line below.

    ALL the verses listed ABOVE THE DOTTED LINE use the word “infirmity” to mean SICKNESS AND DISEASE.

    ALL the verses listed BELOW THE DOTTED LINE use the word “infirmity” to mean WEAKNESS….either of mental, spiritual, or physical. It includes a verse written by Paul in 2 Cor 13:4, in which Paul states that Jesus Christ was crucified through WEAKNESS.

    You cannot mix and match. The verses listed go with that particular usage of the word.

    Noun Strong’s Number: g769 Greek: astheneia

    Disease, Diseased (Be):
    lit., “lacking strength” (a, negative, sthenos, “strength”), “weakness, infirmity,” is translated “diseases” in Mat 8:17, RV, for AV, “sicknesses,” and in Act 28:9. Its usual rendering is “infirmity” or “infirmities;” “sickness,” in Jhn 11:4. Cp. B, No. 1.

    Noun Strong’s Number: g769 Greek: astheneia

    Sick, Sickly, Sickness:
    “weakness, sickness” (akin to A, No. 1 and B, No. 1), is translated “sickness” in Jhn 11:4.


    Strong’s Number: g769 Greek: astheneia

    lit., “want of strength” (a, negative, sthenos, “strength”), “weakness,” indicating inability to produce results, is most frequently translated “infirmity,” or “infirmities;” in Rom 8:26, the RV has “infirmity” (AV, “infirmities”); in 2Cr 12:5, 9, 10, “weaknesses” and in 2Cr 11:30, “weakness” (AV, “infirmities”); in Luk 13:11 the phrase “a spirit of infirmity” attributes her CURVATURE directly to SATANIC AGENCY. The connected phraseology is indicative of trained medical knowledge on the part of the writer.

    Noun Strong’s Number: g769 Greek: astheneia

    Weak, Weakened, Weaker, Weakness:
    for which see INFIRMITY, is rendered “weakness,” of the body, 1Cr 2:3; 15:43; 2Cr 11:30, RV; 2Cr 12:5 (plural, RV), 2Cr 12:9, 10, RV; Hbr 11:34; in 2Cr 13:4, “He was crucified through weakness” is said in respect of the physical sufferings to which Christ voluntarily submitted in giving Himself up to the death of the Cross.

  136. Hi Watchful,

    Actually there were doctors in ancient times.
    The Apostle Luke was one which even adds more credibility to the healing accounts.
    The woman with the issue of blood went to physicians.
    Julias Caesar was born by C Section …thats how they get the name.
    Anatomy was well known.
    They used plants for medicines etc.
    Given modern medicines big breakthroughs were probably in the early 1900s…xrays, antibiotics, antiseptics etc we must have been pretty poor on diagnostics up until then.
    Whilst things may have been primitive people were not as ignorant as modern men think.
    As to the precision of ancient language, Up until the 1980s Doctors had to learn Latin because medicine is so full of the language as used in medical terms (Greek also) because those old societies studied man etc.
    Doctors used to write prescriptions in latin etc for the chemists.
    As Lighting Storm has shown the meanings of the words in scripture in context with correct translation from the Greek, wgat more can be said apart from conjecture.
    They may not conform to a persons experience but that could be said by many people of many scriptures.
    Whilst it is very hard at times to understand Scripture is not subjected to validation or invalidation by feelings or experience, the Word stands alone as immutable, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth, and of the hearer it demands belief.

    God Bless.

    Grant Sutton

  137. Lighting Storm, and all,

    I don’t know if you have e-sword its a free download on the Bible with the original Greek and Hebrew. If you want thayers and some of the other study books it costs twenty dollars for all of them on one disk.

    Its free at e-sword.net


  138. Hi GaryB,

    Theres Mysword as well which is the smartphone/tablet version.
    I use it all the time and its free of course.
    If you get someone saved in the street you can show them the way to have a Bible on their phone.
    No doubt you could even send the programme to another phone also that has wifi.
    Awesome way to gave the Word to people.

    God Bless,

    Grant Sutton,

    [email protected]

  139. watchful Jul 14th 2013

    Er…? So you’re saying that Paul’s thorn in the flesh and infirmity was SUBMISSION………??????? The messenger of Satan brought SUBMISSION……..????? I don’t think it needs to be this confusing, thank you for the discussion, but I will stick to what the Holy Spirit showed me because it is nice and clear and simple. All the scriptures I have seen so far agree with it. Even poor Timothy needing to drink a little wine for his stomach and often SUBMISSION….?? 🙂 And I will mention after all in Luke about the leprosy that “departed”……..so which was that, a healing or deliverance, a sickness or infirmity? Does it really matter? The point still stands. Many bodily problems are caused by demons whether sickness or infirmity. However, I can easily understand the need to distinguish between an acute illness that rendered one incapacitated and potentially was fatal, from a problem that was more chronic in nature and did not lay one up in bed or cause death. I guess its just easier for me to understand infirmity in any language because I have one, neither sickness nor disease, but still physiological.

    Grant, I’m glad at least that you seem to have understood my point, however they sure didn’t have medical knowledge even approaching what doctors know today, and the common people most certainly didn’t even have that much knowledge, nor could the vast majority of them afford doctors. They couldn’t even read. Golly, in the 18th century 1800 years later they were still using terms like “the vapours”, lol. If I had more time I would dig up some more quaint medical terminology, but I have company coming and must get on with things here. Blessings to one and all…

  140. watchful Jul 14th 2013

    Be encouraged, church in the wilderness……….Isaiah 51 and 52 are for you.

  141. Tammy , I understood what you said, it is based on the false teaching ‘sinful nature’ . Did you know that it was the same Constantine who started the false roman catholic religion who introduced the doctrine of a ‘sinful nature ‘ that was passed on to the protestant religion. Today it is easy to see that the protestant religion is the offspring of the catholic religion and is not , nor was it ever , Christ’s true Church. All the Christians who will not reject the protestant religion and all its man made false beliefs and practices demonstrate that their true loyalty is to this ‘world’ and not to Jesus.

    So because the sinful nature teaching is false then we can see if Paul sins , or anyone sins , it is because their entire being chooses what is sin. It only can become your ‘nature’ to sin if you refuse to repent because you love what is sin. Anyone with ongoing sin in their life loves sin and hates God, false doctrines are a way to avoid the truth of it. The false ‘ sinful nature’ teachings are only believed in by people who still love and practice sin, they need to find out from The Lord what it means to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord.

  142. then we can see if Paul sins , or anyone sins , it is because their entire being chooses what is sin.

    they need to find out from The Lord what it means to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord.

    By your own definition above I’d like to ask you some questions JeffM…

    Q1: Do you believe that you have personally found “out from The Lord what it means to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord”?

    Q2: Assuming your answer to Q1 to be “Yes”, since that time have you ever sinned?

    If you have – ever sinned – since that time then by your own definition your entire being in that instance choose to do that invalidating and making null and void your previous death to sin through the Body of Christ…

    This would, in your definition, prove that your previous repentance and believing was a self righteous sham…

    For we died and our life is now hidden with Christ in God scripture tells us…

    But if you have sinned (with your entire being as you say) since your supposed conversion – using your own logic, under your own definition – then you are a still a sinner (that is all you are – nothing else – you don’t have a new heart or a new spirit or a righteous soul), you are still lost in your sins and you are on your way to the lake of fire and brimstone…

    Which is it for you JeffM…

    Q3: Are you a sinner?

    Q4: Or a saint?

    Q5: Are you under the Blood?

    Q6: Or not?

    Q7: Did you die and is your life now hidden with Christ in God?

    Q8: Or not?

    Q9: Are you a new creation?

    Q10: Or not?

    These are the two choices you have…

    Q11: Which is your choice?

  143. Hi Tammy,

    Our cat caught a tiny little baby bird yesterday morning…

    My oldest son had to get up and go to the toilet and he found it and rescued it from our cat…

    The baby bird was so scared and we sent the cat outside and then prayed – once my other two little children woke up – that the Lord would give one of us faith that the baby bird could fly and get away…

    It appeared to be injured…

    My son Jonathan then said, “I have faith” and sure enough soon after that the bird tried to fly around the room and we released it into a tall tree…

    I hope the bird is OK – our cat hasn’t brought it back into the house – so that’s a good sign… 🙂

    The enemy is like that cat…

    He is the accuser of the brethren…

    Jesus Christ is like my son…

    He is our Advocate with the Father…

    We – those of us who are sheltering under Jesus’ Blood with no righteousness of our own but trusting in His “It is Finished” work – can sometimes be like that terrified baby bird…

    But as we grow to become eagles in the Lord (so to speak) we are no longer terrified of cats – as we can fly above the attacks of the cats…

    We fly in Grace…

    We fall in Law…

    When we go back under the Law we are no longer able to fly and we are the prey of the cats…

    You are the righteousness of God in Christ…

    Fly sister… 🙂

    No matter what anyone says, fly… 🙂

    Love you,


  144. Medical Science?

    Psalm 118:8
    It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

    Medical science has made a lot of advances over the centuries. They understand about germs, different bacteria, the basic structure of the human body. Technology has come a long ways in the last 100 years but this was prophesied in Daniel that knowledge would be increased.

    Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    We have seen an explosion of knowledge in technology and in the field of medical science. This has become the new tower of Babel for mankind.

    The question is can medical science come to the place that it will cure all the diseases of the world?

    I don’t think so. Disease was part of the curse of the law placed upon mankind. In Deuteronomy 28: it tells us that disease is under the curse of the law.

    Even with all of man’s advances in this area we will never see where men will be able to remove the curse of the law from mankind. Most of the major diseases have no cure. Many of the major medicines on the market contain deadly side effects worse then the disease that they are trying to cure.

    I read where one doctor said; there is so many new strains of bacteria coming on the scene they cannot keep up with them.

    But Jesus is our hope in this life, He has redeemed us from the curse at the cross.

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    While many put their hope and trust in their technology our hope is in the Lord Jesus Christ, maker of heaven and earth.

    Sure there have been a lot of advances in medical science but its barely scratching the surface in the area of curing men’s diseases.


  145. Andrew J Horton,
    A1. Yes, Jesus has forgiven my sins because I choose to reject all sinning , I repent of it, and by faith know that He died for my sins. Jesus is known to me as Lord because I will do whatever He tells me to do, He is God and all creation submits to Him.

    A2. Yes, I am able to choose to do evil (sin) and I have. Your assumptions of what that means seem to make salvation a kind of legal contract based on what is written in the word. What you conclude would be true if it was, but Jesus himself is Salvation. Salvation is not something He does for us , Jesus is Salvation. If I sin, The Lord will deal with me on the basis of a relationship. He will show me that I sinned and that I have to stop it (repent of it), or He can not be with me because the one who sins does not want Jesus with them while they are sinning. He will teach me to obey if I sin, but if I refuse then no amount of doctrine can replace Christ in me , and it is the one who sins who does not want The Lord with them while they sin.

    A3. No , a sinner is a sinner because of the things that they do, I will not do those things and risk separating The Father from my heart.

    A4. Yes , I have learned to repent and stop doing what God tells me is sin, and do what The Father wants me to do.

    A5. Yes Jesus shed His Blood as He sacrificed His Life for my sins, if I die with Him then I will also live with Him. Christ in me and me in Him. If He remains in me then I am clean ,but the one who keeps sinning does not want Jesus with them while they sin. They want it to be a legal contract with God that they can still believe in even though they pushed Jesus out of their heart, It is not like that at all.

    A6. Because Jesus is Salvation and it is not based on our interpretation of scripture, we can not tell God that we are saved because we believe . God has to tell us that we are right with Him.

    A7. This is not some mystical reality that only God sees, my life is what I do and think . What I do and think have to be pleasing to God or I have lifted myself up as being more important than God and then I will stop knowing Him as Lord (above all things). Yes my life is His now , I am done with turning back and then trying to use theology to convince God that I believe in Jesus when what I did and thought proves that I don’t.

    A8. Salvation is something that you have (or not) in the present. No one ever ‘got’ saved in the word of God, and then because of that past event, they are now saved . We are all ‘being ‘ saved as we walk with Jesus , if we choose to go our own way we walk away from Salvation(Jesus is Salvation).

    A9. If we can choose to forsake our old self to follow Jesus then we are able to choose to go back to being the old me. God does not force us to be holy (set apart form this world for His purposes), He makes the way for us but we must obey Him to walk it.

    A10.I found Jesus and was delivered from Satan and forgiven of all sin. But after time the troubles of this world caused me to be lifted up in pride, so that no longer was Jesus explaining to me the way of The Lord , I started explaining it to Him. To explain to Him why it was ok that I did not obey, I had lots of theology to use to do that. I had deceived myself and after a long time I turned back and chose the way of Love, to repent and always have The Lord my God with me, never doing what will push Him away and He will warn me if that starts to happen.

    A11. The sinners will die because of the things that they do, God will punish them. If I do the same things they do, it is because I choose to be one of them, and God will punish me, after Jesus gets doing saying “I do not know you”. If I will not do all He tells me to do I reject knowing that Jesus is Lord. So He will let me have it my way , so to speak, because I would not do it His Way.

    Luke 14:33-35

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    33 “So every one of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has cannot be my talmid. 34 Salt is excellent. But if even the salt becomes tasteless, what can be used to season it? 35 It is fit for neither soil nor manure — people throw it out. Those who have ears that can hear, let them hear!”

  146. You know all the debate over scripture at times can often be a distraction from the actual reality of how we are really doing in terms of walking as overcomer’s in the times we live in.

    No amount of naming and claiming will ever replace the truth of Lord Jesus Christ, that once established by His Spirit within us , truly does set us free .

    As long as our minds desire to have knowledge validated , we will walk in a limited way , as we are still then bound by pride and self righteousness .

    The actual reality of what really does go down in our lives , and how we walk is a direct reflection of our personal relationship with Lord Jesus Christ , and to what extent we have truly opened up all that we are unto Him .

    All of us where created by Him , with unique differences , that when bought under His rule , provide the diversity of His Body.
    We therefore learn in different ways , which is why our Lord uses the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us , in a way that no other human could.

    Until any of us have reached a place in terms of the fruit and the gifts that Paul for example demonstrated , then our words are not backed up by the way we walk and live, they are simply still only theory and potential , even if they are biblical truth.

    The starting place for progressing forward , is the reality of where we stand today.

    Self righteous deception can often hide behind biblical knowledge , thereby robbing us of the opportunity to be real with our Lord , denying ourselves daily , taking up our cross, and following after Him.

  147. A sister shared this on another site:

    There was a young man who continually condemned himself for a particular sin that he had committed years ago.

    At his church, there was an elderly woman who claimed to have dreams, visions, and to even hear from God audibly.

    The young man was leary, and approached the woman. “If you hear from God, ask Him what the sin was that I committed long ago.”

    At the next church meeting, the young man asked the woman if she had heard from God and what was the sin.

    She replied, “Yes, I asked Him. He said that He did not remember.”


  148. Hi Kevin and everyone,

    Well spoken Kevin,

    I personally have seen a great many healings so am fortunate by the grace of God not to be talking from just theory but from having seen Jesus (not me) heal people.
    As a testimony here one more extreme case ,a young man diagnosed as inoperable in accoma with a massive head injury, on life support intensive care.
    We weren’t even allowed to lay hands on him because doctors ordered complete isolation of him from any stemulis of sound or touch.
    In the hospital carpark we were told by the Lord to take off our watches and jewellery and leave all our money behind (which was interesting).
    A nurse got us into the room nextdoor to him to be able to pray.
    He walked out days later.
    The doctors answer for his recovery ….. “obviously our prognosis and diagnosis was wrong, all the machines readings etc must have been wrong because this is impossible”.

    Thats why I find it frustrateing talking with people sometimes about the truth from scripture, even when it is demostrated in front of them they will still doubt.
    This blog is a classic example of it.
    Andrew posts videos of people being healed of various complaints and writers go on and on about how people don’t recieve healing or suggest it fake etc.
    You have to ask the question If people believe its Gods will for them or another to be sick why then do they ask God for healing.
    Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
    The devil is named as the father of lies.
    Thats why the Truth is so important to deal with the lies and doubts sown by the enemy.
    The truth will set you free, Jesus is a living person ,the Son of God.
    The Word made flesh who has dwelt amongst us and does still in His people.
    This is not a question of pride but rather unbelief (I wonder sometimes if theres pride in the unbelief if anything).
    Those who have tasted of true heavenly things arent quick to talk
    lightly of it and for the most part maybe not at all, because you know its the Lords works and no man has glory in it.
    As I have said before we are all on a journey .
    Some are a little bit further along the road than others in certain things in the Lord.
    I just wish that there would be some value placed by people on what is said by people who have the testimony of God by the fruit of the Holy Spirit in their lives and accompanied with demonstrated Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
    As the scripture says there are those through reason of use have their senses excercised to decern both good and evil.
    It stands to reason therefore that there are those through lack of use do not.
    We must search the scriptures to see what they are saying as the basis of determineing all that is truth,but do an honest search.
    Paul said he did not come just with words but power.
    For this is the power of God Christ and Him crucified.
    Think about what He, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God totally defeated on the cross.
    It is finished!

    God bless you to know Him more fully as you surrender to Him.

    Love in Christ, your brother in Him.

    Grant Sutton

    [email protected]

  149. Hi Andrew,
    My eyes are filled with tears with the message you have shared with me. I do not know if you realize how much your words have touched my heart. It is a deep personal message that I need to hear at this time of my life.You, my friend are a messenger from God.

    I love your story! How wonderful for your children that you and your wife teach them to pray and believe for all things. What you teach them now, will be remembered years down the road. My children are all teenagers now and I am blessed that they often preach back to me those things I have said to them over the years. Keep up the good work, it will reap many rewards in the future. 🙂

    Which brings me to a similar story that happened to us. Many years ago when my children were small, the neighborhood cats cornered a baby squirrel in our garage. My boys rescued the baby squirrel, brought him inside and we took care of him. This little squirrel would follow my children around and sit on their shoulders. Although most people would find this disgusting, this baby squirrel would jump on the table while we were eating dinner and eat the vegetables right off our plates. We found it hilarious! We would take the squirrel outside and train him to climb trees, ect. We tried to let him go but the squirrel always followed us back inside.

    One day, the boys were running around the house and the squirrel was chasing them. Much to their horror, one of the boys accidentally stepped on the squirrel. They brought his limp twitching body to me, blaming the son who stepped on him. I said come on kids, lets pray for the little guy. We brought the squirrel into the family room, set him on the floor and joined a circle around him. Holding hands we prayed for the Lord to bring this squirrel back to life. Suddenly, the squirrel jumped up, ran around the house and was perfectly fine! We were filled with joy and the kids learned a mighty lesson. A few weeks later the squirrel decided that he wanted to live with the other squirrels instead of being our pet. We were kind of sad, but oh the joy and the lessons that little squirrel brought to us.

    I find it wonderful how God uses the everyday things to bring joy to our hearts. Thank you so much for sharing your story and thank you even more for bringing me a much needed word.

    Many Blessings,