ANDREW STROM: I believe the word “Reformation” has been hijacked by modern groups such as the NAR – similar to the way the word ‘Revival’ has been misused and abused in modern times. This is very sad, because if it is one thing the church desperately needs today, it is a total and true ‘Reformation’ back to the ways of the early church. Below, my friend Torben Sondergaard has some very interesting things to say on this vital topic-

-extracts by Torben Sondergaard

The first reformation took place in the seventeenth century when
Martin Luther opposed the Catholic Church and its teaching. He
revived the very essence of the Gospel, namely justification by
faith alone. You can say that this reformation concerned theology.

The second reformation took place in the nineteenth century around
the time of the ministry of the Wesley brothers’ activities. In this
reformation personal intimacy with Christ was rediscovered.
However, once again the structure itself; the framework of the
church and the service did not change very much. It was, again,
like putting a new patch on old clothes.

If you look back throughout history, you will see that none of the
revivals of the past have seriously done anything about the church
structure. What we really need is a new and radical reformation.
The third reformation is not just about small changes here and there.
No, it is a reformation that goes so deep that it requires a complete
new start.

I know God wants something new to happen. I also know that this
reformation is necessary. Yet despite the fact that I am so
absolutely convinced about the things I am writing, I am still writing
it with great fear and trembling because I know this is not going to
be easily accepted.

Today we are all glad for the reformation Martin Luther introduced.
We forget, however, about many things. We forget that it created
a big opposition as a result of which Luther`s books were burned
and he was accused of having been sent by the devil to wage war
with God´s church. We forget that it led to violent fights in which
thousands of men, women and children were killed. We forget that
the church of that time did not want the reformation and they did
everything to fight it. You might be thinking now: Yes, but that
was the Catholic Church. Today another church denomination
will try to fight what God wants. Why do we think that it is going
to be different today?

I am not saying that we are going to see thousands killed, but
why should we think that everything will go smoothly – without
divisions and without being accused of working against God and
trying to destroy the church? The truth is we need to see this
reformation and it is not going to go smoothly! We are going to be
accused of destroying the church. We are going to be accused
of having been deceived and of being dangerous.

Why did the church turn against Martin Luther? Was it because
his words were opposed to the Word of God? No, that was not
the reason. For the church it was not a matter of what the Bible
said, but of something completely different. Martin Luther´s
teaching opposed a system based on finances, power and control.
We can say that this is also relevant today. People will oppose
it nowadays as well, not because it is unbiblical, but because it
will destroy the system they have helped to build. Finances, power
and control still matter a lot to the church today.

This is not because pastors do not want to serve God and do not
want to do the right thing. It is mostly due to the fact that they
either cannot see it or that they have much to lose, which makes
it hard for them to go in this direction. When they see others
abandoning their system, they will fight it because that is how
they lose their members – and together with them, the money that
keeps the system running.

Jesus is zealous for God´s church on earth. Do we have the same
zeal today? Jesus said there would be a price to pay if we followed
Him. Are we willing to pay that price? It will cause division and
some Christians will fight it because it seems to be something
that will destroy the church. I can honestly say on my behalf that
I have absolutely no intent of destroying God´s church. I love the
church and therefore I want to rescue it. I love God´s people and
I love God – and that is why I do what I do. The only difference is
that my view of what God´s church is, is different from that of
many other people.

-Original source-

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on July 19th, 2013 at 11:55 am.


164 Replies

  1. Chris Stuttard Jul 19th 2013

    This is spot on! Welcome to my world for the last 2 years i have been fighting with a church to actually do what the bible commands. Yet as God has confirmed what were saying they rejected and rebelled at every step. To the point now where me and a group of fellow believers have left the church called to be the active Christians God wants in our community. Our small group has grown as God has lead us to become our own church, we are seriously looking into our structure and the failings of the churches around us, and how best to bring the gospel and meet the needs of the community. We are a family and that to me was what the early church was a big family. I loved reading this article and was very encouraged.

  2. Neville Krieg Jul 19th 2013

    Andrew, I must say, my heart is certainly aligned with yours on this issue of where the church is heading. I believe reforming of how we have church as believers in Christ is necessary. I feel that it may come to something smaller and much like home gatherings, especially if we truly have a heart to reach the lost while there is time. I feel that we need to be able to share the gospel confidently and very genuinely driven from something deep within (a longing for others to find salvation coming from growing intimacy with our Lord) The “sit back and enjoy the service” days need to come to an end. I often ask, “would I die for my faith” and the answer must be a strong YES. That drives everything else.
    With love in Christ,

  3. Johan Laubser Jul 19th 2013

    At last we are getting someone who has true Biblical insight.
    Andrew, many of us has been saying it all along, we will be prosecuted by those who do not understand the Grace of Jesus Christ. This is IT! The division will be between those under the law and those who has grasped the full redemption of Jesus. As Torben said: POWER,CONTROL AND FINANCES. May God open the eyes of His children to see the deception inside the “free” church. I say again: Jesus plus anything and Jesus minus anything is another Jesus. It is another groom, and as part of the bride you will be part of a whore system, for Jesus do not share His bride with anyone. PURE and Blameless He prepared the bride on the cross. Please do not be deceived in following another counterfeit Jesus! The gospel is simple to understand. JESUS DID IT ALL! IT IS FINISHED!

    God Bless!

  4. Bruce Repka Jul 19th 2013

    Yes! When are the pastors going to stop fleecing the flock, and preaching as doctrines the precepts of men?

  5. I want to especially endorse Neville’s and Johan’s comments. My son (in his 30’s) and I have been saying this for years. We are practising simple, ‘organic church’ by God’s grace alone.
    I would just be careful here and say this (I was a denominational pastor for 38 years and have been operating outside of it for 7 years): ultimately it is not about the structure (although this should be NT, simple, organic, non-hierarchical, participative, under Jesus’ headship, etc) but about the life of the triune God through the indwelling of Christ. Structure can become an end in itself – the life of the Triune God is always relevant and fundamental. Col. 1 and 2 are fundamental here, so also Jn.15.
    Warm greetings!

  6. Reformation has to start in the heart of man. It is about a return to God as in Hosea 5:15-6:3. It is about coming out of Babylon and going up to Zion where the Lord is. It is about getting back to the true Gospel that completely transforms the wineskin so that we can be the people led of the Holy Spirit. Watch this powerful video about what Jesus did to make reformation possible through His redemptive work:

  7. We pray that the Spirit will flood through the Church. We forget that a flood slashes out new channels, and destroys all that stands in its way.

    If God’s will for the Church is just as fierce and implacable, His equally fierce love towards us is the only safe ground on which to stand.

    In Jesus, Steve

  8. I have read, and re-read the extracts above, and I completely CANNOT see what Torben is proposing. YES, we all get so much wrong in church. And, YES, the Lord undoubtedly wants better for us. But does that justify the supremely self-righteous ‘walk-away’ responses that are repeatedly evidenced on this site?
    I am one of those you love to criticise and condemn. I invest seven days a week in pastoring a small, struggling fellowship. I neither seek nor receive a penny piece for my labours. I don’t want power, I don’t seek fame, and I will happily lay aside this role just as soon as my Lord allows. The work is often hard. And I get things wrong – I’ve had to say ‘sorry’, many more times than anyone has said sorry to me. All that being said, I love my people, and I love serving them. And I grieve deeply for those who, for one reason or another, choose to walk away.
    There are doubtless some who pastor for the wrong reasons. But I am equally sure that there are many, many more who love the word and are devoted to both God and their people – who daily ‘lay down their lives’ in the service of others.
    Please, brother, sister, be more gracious in your attitude toward those who are called to minister – it is not easy. If you possibly can, value, love, and cherish those who serve you. Not all are the money-driven control-freaks that this article depicts.

  9. AMEN! I’ve been waiting for someone to see this truth so clearly.

  10. sharon Jul 19th 2013

    Good word on this one Andrew.
    However we need not worry about the Church of Jesus Christ.
    He will never allow it to be destroyed, just deployed. That has always been the plan. No longer to hide out in buildings and congregations, and bible study groups. Sent out into the highways and byways, preaching the good news of repentance.
    Living and writing our own book of acts.

  11. Clare Watts Jul 19th 2013

    Amen! Thank you for putting it so succinctly! The true church is a living organism, fulfilling the Great Commission of Jesus. Hallelujah! And Jesus said that HE would build His church – not man. As Sharon said, “Living and writing our OWN book of Acts”….. 🙂 with Jesus as the cornerstone of the temple NOT built with human hands. Jesus must increase, and we must decrease. All glory to Him.

  12. Keith, is it that you cant see what the article is saying ,or is it that if you did let yourself see it ,you too would walk-away? Not walking away from Jesus but following Jesus and leaving behind those who will not follow Him with all their heart. The Lord deserves better from us than He will ever get from a church system that hinders and obstructs His Will being done.

    How about if we all just do whatever Jesus wants each of us to do and also as a group do whatever Jesus tells us to do? That is what will destroy your church structure and cant be allowed at ‘church’ , so people walk away because they want only God’s Will . If you keep doing things wrong at church then you have gotten use to it and wont change. We must put Jesus above all other things and be careful to always do what He wants, if ‘church’ as it is practiced prevents this then having ‘church’ is not compatible with being Christ’s Church.

  13. watchful Jul 19th 2013

    Amen George Delo, preach it! And hope and trust you let all the other parts of the body exercise their senses and gifts as well, so that all can be built up together, amen.

    My comment on reformation, is just that I am looking for a reformation and move that makes Jesus famous, and not a Martin Luther or a John Calvin. Even in their day God already had a remnant who had come out and touched not the unclean thing….how do I know that? Because the bible says so, that He always keeps a remnant for Himself. And I do see such a move and it has made me amazed and worship the Author and Finisher of our faith……my heart is satisfied and will be patient to let Him work it out. Because He is not the Author only but the Finisher as well. He doesn’t need a man to finish it. We just need to see what the Father is doing and facilitate and cooperate with Him in that. He is the only one who can rescue His sheep and make them into new wineskins. Let’s not settle for what is only good or pleasing, but aim for His perfect will.

  14. @ JeffM
    You seem to know an awful lot about me and my fellowship. You know that we “keep doing things wrong.” And you insist that I should “walk away” from the ones Jesus has told me to serve????
    Brother, I love you. But be careful how you judge.

  15. flyingcloudkitty Jul 19th 2013

    Were it not for my dreams, I’d have no hope for the real church. I’ve not really had Christian fellowship in real life since leaving church 6yrs ago and it looks like I’ll have to wait for the tribulation before I find any real life Christian fellowship. There must be many out there who also cannot fit into church and have no hope of Christian fellowship any time soon.

  16. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    AMEN! Torben and A.Strom.

    I will also add…..quit looking to the “future apostasy”. It already happened in the PAST.
    That is why the entire globe experienced the DARK AGES!

    But, God is faithful and loving IN SPITE of unbelief and blasphemy, and has been DRAGGING the True Church out of the FALSE and into HIS TRUE LIGHT AND HIS AUTHORITY.

    God has been sending REFORMERS to the APOSTATE ORGANIZATIONS who call themselves “church” for centuries.

    Now we are at the END…..and the LIGHT IS SO BRIGHT, AND GETTING BRIGHTER, that the FALSE WILL FALL INTO DUST…….just as the walls of Jericho.

  17. Jeff Zak Jul 19th 2013

    I agree we need a reformation, but I would like to hear much more on people thoughts as a to what that would look like and what radical adjustments would need to take place. The article didn’t really address that, other than to say we need a radical change to the structures of the church.

    Luther did expose the many of the weaknesses of the Catholic church structure in his day & help bring in other forms. Being raised I know from personal experience that challenging that system costs you, as my family & I can attest to
    John Wesley, preceded by George Whitefield helped introduce a return to preaching outside the church walls, or ‘field preaching’ & thousands came. He witnessed many conversions, & even visions & trances & healing among the people.He started the Societies, really cell groups for the new believer’s & he promoted ‘lay preachers’ to carry on the work and preach the gospel- they were at it everywhere and at it all the time, & for his day, he introduced sweeping changes & was soon barred from the Anglican churches for it- his mother was buried in the Dissenters graveyard across from his chapel, along with John Bunyan & many others despised for their faith in Christ. He also died quite poor & was not in the ministry for the money or caught up in the machinery of that system, so he was very radical.
    I have been hearing this since I was a new believer 30 years ago, and have been in several faith groups, and worked as a pastor and evangelist, the last twenty years being bi-vocational / tent making.. I think there are many people trying to ‘break the mold’ … we are doing a Tent missionary right now that has reached into the secular, New Age community & marketplace, and we have had a negative reaction from some leaders/believers.
    The love of Jesus and His passion is the key for me. We need to get outside where the people are, and be available to others, as Jesus and the believers were.

    I think the overemphasis on the prophetic that leaves us quite self focused & teaching in the body of Christ more around the believer & their ‘needs’ that has resulted in a people that has heard enough sermons and teaching for each to earn a bachelor’s degree, but we are left in our seats/pews, isolated from our commission and purpose & are preaching & ministering to the church for the most part, certainly in North America.
    Loving people and reaching people costs … going against the flow costs … how many will respond? That is one or perhaps the primary obstacle to this vision of changing structures… the cost … launching on on something fresh from Jesus, He is the way & the Way- I think trying to change old existing structures from within is probably the least fruitful approach … you may start there, but you will probably be pushed out.I have worked with many churches from Roman Catholic, to United to Pentecostal and Charismatic …. If yu church or association etc. is not open to change,I think to start you need to Step out of the boat – it’s sinking anyway- Let’s walk with Jesus & He will show us….

  18. exactly right… my friend wrote the book RETURN you can get it at and it gives the clearest picture of what the church will look like after this last reformation I was extremely encouraged by it and will be blogging about this subject only and getting an online community going about it so we can begin to come together I have been a believer since 1972 now is the time, wherever you are is the place, AND WE ARE THE PEOPLE…… THAT WILL MANIFEST THE LAST REFORMATION

  19. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    Amen! THE LAST REFORMATION! Hallelujah!

  20. Keith , I would rather not talk about ‘me and you’ but I would like to share what I believe is real help to be Christ’s Church. The Lord wants us to know how to avoid religious deceptions from the enemy to keep us safe in Him. There is a huge deception that is part of how all churches structure their meetings, just leaving church does not mean you will not still fall into the same false way of doing things .

    What I want to share is something that The Lord showed me is the enemies plan to cause people to drift away from being Christ’s church into being something that only looks like Christ’s church on the surface. It is something quite simple but the result is to ruin the meeting together of the believers and also ruin the work of making disciples. The deception is to take two things that need to be done at different times and try to do both at the same meeting. The two things are the meeting together as believers and the activity of taking the word to the people who do not live according to the word of God.

    At a typical church meeting you are trying to do both of those things but the result is that you accomplish doing neither one. There are very good reasons why in the bible the believers met as a private meeting for ‘just’ believers, it wont work God’s way if it is open to anyone who wants to come. For instance , how do you plan on doing God’s Will as a group and then also plan on inviting and including people who won’t do what Jesus says?

    The work of taking the word of God to those who do not obey Jesus needs to be done at a separate time from doing the things that a group of believers are supposed to do when they meet. I hope that this is clear , we need to be able to meet and do what Jesus tells each of us to do , for His Glory and to please The Father.

  21. TheDude Jul 19th 2013

    I think there is too much emphasis on concepts (e.g. “revival” and “reformation”) instead of the simplicity of Christ. Man has put labels on what God has done in the past and we fall prey to hoping/expecting God will repeat what He has already done.

    Wouldn’t it be a better path to just focus on Jesus and acknowledge that God is sovereign and He will decide how His will is to be done? Men can use whatever earthly labels they want, it doesn’t change what God is going to do.

    We need to stop staring into the heavens waiting for revival or reformation and just do God’s will here on earth.

    Finally, I think Andrew is focusing too much on the man – Torben – instead of focusing on Christ. Four posts in a row about Torben? Are we worshipping the man or are we worshipping Christ?

  22. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    JeffM…That is an excellent point.

    The Dude…..Scripture talks about the Kingdom of God operating within the globe.
    That Kingdom is located within every born again person, BUT the King is also still on His Throne ORCHESTRATING the WILL OF THE FATHER through people, angels, all of creation.

    Therefore, we need to have eyes to SEE and be AWARE of what the King is doing in ALL OF HIS KINGDOM……not just our life.

    The True God is BIGGER than 1 person….He RULES A KINGDOM.

    We have to be aware of the King’s will, and movements of His will, so that we can CO-OPERATE WITH HIM and be CO-LABORERS WITH HIM in the DAILY OPERATIONS OF HIS KINGDOM THROUGH OUT THE GLOBE.

  23. Yes, the church today is so much about power, control and finances and all these have got to change, and we need to go back to the Book of Acts to see how to do church. And, regarding finances, how many of you are still collecting tithes from the Lord’s people ? If you’re doing it out of ignorance, it is time to go back to your Bible to study and stop collecting tithes. And if it’s because of greed, it’s time to repent and stop stealing and robbing the Lord’s people through tithing.

  24. The Reformation did not start with Luther, nor is it encapsulated with Luther. Many before that date (hundreds of years earlier) were engaged in this act of reformation and were tortured and killed AT THE HANDS OF CATHOLICS, AND LATER PROTESTANTS because of this violent pursuit of the Kingdom of God. Michael Sattler, to me, personifies the spirit of Kingdom reformation, and it cost him and many others their very lifes – violent deaths – by those who didn’t like that these bold, yet humble, victorius and obedient saints where willing to disobey the “state” church to rather obey God. I’m so thankful for their witness.

    And to that end, having grown up Lutheran, I shudder to think of Luther’s name attached to any institution bearing the identification of Christ. He started out with a fairly good understanding of the Kingdom, but what he went on to do is shameful. I’m concerned that we would exalt a man that should not be exalted.

    Lastly, I would challenge the notion that “Justification by Faith ALONE” is biblical. James says otherwise. Paul is alluding the Jews trying to be saved through the Law of Moses and Circumcision. But nowhere does it say what Luther said.

    Let us reform our lives, first, and be a living example to the believers around us, of love, faith, and obedience toward God in Christ. But let us go BACK to the beginning – the beginner and author of our faith, Jesus – rather than Augustine, or an Augustinian Monk (Luther), or Wesley, or anyone else. Because there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved, other than Jesus.

    And we know what He has commanded. “If anyone hears My sayings and DOES THEM…”, He warned.

    In doing so, we will feel the sword of division in family, friends, and even Christian fellowship as He came to bring a sword.

  25. Daniel Jul 19th 2013

    You want a reformation? Then you begin to walk by the Spirit, and you will see eathquakes begin to shake this fleshly system. It will shock the system so terribly that it will want to destroy you. We think we can just peacefully walk away and go do something else. Every where Paul went riots broke out, and these were stirred up by the already established religious system. It was this same system that murdered Christ, and persecuted the apostles and early Christians, and now we have joined hands with it, all in the name of Jesus. We have become the very thing that Jesus rebuked severely in the temple. Can you picture Him walking into our churches and turning over altars, pews, and pulpits? Screaming about us teaching as doctrine the precepts of man? Calling us a den of robbers who spend millions on unused and superfluous buildings? We need to wake up. Torben is right, reformation is violent. Why is that? Because the flesh and Holy Spirit war against one another. We have a fleshly system that will fight to its dying breath to keep the flock in its chains, yet we instead decide to slink off and say, “We’ll start a new thing”. The people are in chains, locked up and bound by a ruthless system. Keith you’re trapped my friend, because God has not called you to that. How do I know? Because no such calling is in His word, at least not One Man Shepherding of a flock.

    What we must do is begin to command in prayer, through spoken word, by written letters and literature and media, “Restore!” We want a restoration and reformation, but are we willing to pay the price? The price is dying to our reputations before man, to be willing to fully follow the Holy Spirit and do as He commands of us. And I can tell that the Holy Spirit is not at peace with the system, He will tear it down mercilessly. For too long it has grieved the Spirit and kept the Body in prison houses. Now is the time to come out of the system, yes this is true, but we must now speak up and prophesy against the White-Washed Wall, speak against this system so that others may be rescued out of it.

    What are we entering into? A place where the Holy Spirit leads and guides His people completely. If the first reformation restored the doctrine of the salvation, the second a relationship with God and Christ, then the third is going to restore the kingdom (reign) of God, headship of Christ, and leading of the Holy Spirit. We are going all the way this time, no more going in circles for 40 years, we are going into the promised land, a land overflowing with the Presence of the Holy Spirit, nothing will stand in our way. The Spirit will be in charge, and the systems of the flesh will not be able to stand in His way, they will be torn down. This is a reformation of the Spirit, and the flesh will fight it tooth and nail. The end will be a freedom and life, an overwhelming love for Christ and His glory alone, an obedient body, and a pure and spotless bride.

  26. Gary M Jul 19th 2013

    History repeats itself because man’s heart has not changed. Luther’s reformation was against a system that placed the authority and privilege in a few. Today’s church is largely the same. The elders and deacons and pastors are the authority and wield it over the congregations. But Jesus said that the greastest would also be the least and servant of others.

  27. watchful Jul 19th 2013

    Amen Jeff and Daniel, I’m encouraged by your comments. I would go so far as to say that the reason I’m not looking for a future reformation is because I see that the Lord has already started one. And He is the only one being glorified in it, there is no one we can point to as the father of this reformation except THE Father Himself. Completely engineered by He Himself and no man, that no man may boast or be boasted of by others, He is accomplishing another huge Exodus in our day!

    It saddens me when any of His people are looking for a man to speak for them. They will just end up where they started, because this was the problem in the first place. I’ve been watching and seeing the body of Christ understanding and talking about these same things for several years now (and they were doing so before I became aware of it). With ALL of His Body voicing their witness and not just a few ‘select’ ones as in times past, because we have Christ as our Head and need no other to speak for us. The churches have fallen asleep because of not discerning His Body, surely that is something to think upon.

    Beware of the image with a mouth that speaks boastfully. I’m reminded of the Israelites when they were yearning for a flesh and blood king, and so God gave them one. So all they ended up with was an image that spoke for them instead of the Shepherd King they were supposed to have. Man being only an image of God.

    Well I guess we better be prepared to soon see the one who looks more imposing than the rest of the body, whoever that may be……….But when I think of how unimposing the Son of the Living God was that they felt free to backtalk and mistreat Him, and did to Him what they wished. And Paul likewise was so unimposing that he was thought by the church to be timid. It’s not by might, not by power, but by His Spirit says the Lord!

  28. My opinion, we are not heading for reformation of the body but rather formation, when ready to battle troop form a line, not reform and reform some more. When the big one comes a total church of Jesus will form its line ready for the greatest move of the God, as the waters cover the oceans, this is what we are waiting for

  29. Claudia Jul 19th 2013

    For many many years I have longed for reformed churces that resemble community centers, where food, clothing, help, rest, companionship, the Word of YHWH, are all available 24/7. Where anyone in need of help, or in need to serve can come and share in the “church”. No matter what day their “Sabbath” is (or even if they have none) they can come and serve, come to receive help, fellowship with others, and dine with them as a gathering in one place. If there were not these denominational wars there would be more than enough people available to staff these Centers of YHWH where ALL are welcome who can leave their egos at the outside door.

    Think of all the cathedrals, the mega places of “worship” and the money it takes to build and maintain them….and picture instead huge community centers (or smaller ones to fit the local populations), humble architecture and plain, but ample and roomy to accomodate all in need! Not just Christians. No stages highlighting the “works of man”, the “talent” of man. Instead of musicians, there would be servants attending the needy and uplifting the sad, sharing praises of YHWH with others of like mind! Many workers behind the scenes in all walks of life in order to make these Centers function as they should. THAT IS TRUE WORSHIP! That is worship and prayer in the “CLOSET”!

    The athiests in Florida not long ago set up a plaque in Florida. On their plaque were these words:

    “An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty banished, war eliminated.”

    Reading these words……I felt shame for what man has done to what YHWH meant to be a Living Church on earth. I felt shame for the works of man which the atheist’s have witnessed that turned them from YHWH. Beautiful words above, and meaningful…..but very sad….because they give all credit to man and leave nothing to YHWH.

    Think of how many athiests would have attended these Centers of YHWH at various times in their life when in need…..think of the impression that they would have gotten of YHWH because of those within and without the Centers that serve under the simple Yoke of their LORD!

    Think on that. It should make you cry.

  30. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    Excellent Claudia.

    It SHOULD make us cry, for as Jesus REVEALED the NATURE of the Father to the world, WE are to REVEAL the NATURE OF THE TRINITY, who live inside of us!

    But, instead, the majority have been focused on TRADITIONAL DOCTRINES instead of BECOMING THE IMAGE OF JESUS CHRIST.

  31. Greetings fellow lepers

    What is going to be the ‘form’ of this coming ‘revival’? I attach a word given in prayer 22 years ago. Please do read 2 Kings ch6:24-ch7:20 and try to understand the changes that the Lord is presently bringing upon us.

    Diary March 1991: “The famine in Samaria. The Western church has been in a spiritual famine. That Church leadership as represented by the king of Samaria, and the church structures as represented by the kings assistant who leaned upon his arm will be trampled to death in this revival. That the body of Christ in the West has been under Satanic seige and has been starved of the reality of Christ. That the walls of our church buildings, and the cultural ‘mindset’ of our services, have become our prisons keeping the body from sharing the gospel message in the community where our Lord has placed us. That some of the body who are really starving, will eventually leave the city in utter desperation in the vain hope of finding spiritual ‘food’ outside the walls of the city. These first ‘pioneers’ will be seen as lepers by the community of believers. However in the communities where God places them, they will find that the Lord has already prepared ‘the Way’ for them. Tent upon tent of hidden treasures and spiritual food will be re-‘discovered’ as available and graciously free. Eventually news will filter back to the traditional church structures of what the Lord is doing, but it will be too late. Suspicion, fear and unbelief will mark the attitudes of church leadership. However starving Christians from within these ‘churches’ will come thronging out of their buildings and into their communities. The church structures will attempt to regulate the intercourse between the ‘church’ body and the community, but in so doing they will be trampled to death by the ‘starving’ masses hungry for the reality of Christ. Expect this season to end the denominaitons as we know them. This season of famine will be over.

    Posted from:

  32. It is not about christianity as a religion or the reformation of what we have today as this religion, it is a matter of seeing in the paradigm of being ONE with God in The Family of God…

    Martin Luther was very much full of religion even though he was a “reformer.” He still supported infant baptism and courted the favor of the pope who is wanted to accept him; which did not happen.

    The trinity, sunday for the 7th day Sabbath, the laity/clergy division, the pray TO God and not identify with Him as One, as the Lord Jesus is ONE with HIM – see the Words of the Lord Jesus in John 17, Hebrews 2:11, Phil 2:5-6, 1John 4:17, Colossians, Ephesians, and the Promises the Jewish people await when the Moshiach comes…

    The beliefs of Judaism in the Moshiach (Messiah) Who they await and we know…is an amazing discovery for every one who Honors the Lord and His Word…

    Sadly through the work of anti -The Lord popes who were politically influential during the Roman empire and other actions to distort the original manuscripts or restrict certain letters to the canon (that was a decision taken by a very catholic influenced body)…much of the Jewish Oral law has been lost…to the Believer in Moshiach today.

    The KJV, for example, was written under guidelines from king james who insisted for example, that the bible should retain the ecclesiastical language used by the church of england (of which he was head)…

    He never claimed to be led of the Lord in his actions or decisions; neither did the canon people who put the “bible together.” I use a KJV but trust the Lord to teach me and show me His Truth and also reveal to me the works of the enemy that have tried to mess up…

  33. I agree with what Andrew Strom himself wrote back in 1996 in his book “The Coming Great Reformation”

    “Meanwhile, God’s true remnant will be being purified, tried as by fire, until every impurity is gone – prepared as a Bride fit for her King – pure and holy, “without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing” (Eph 5:27). This will be the company of saints who will bring in the great last-days harvest of souls, and who will preach the gospel of the kingdom in all the earth with great authority and power, and with signs and wonders following, before the end comes.”

  34. Lynn 1 Jul 19th 2013

    Andrew I have to agree with Torben here.

    It seems to all come back to the same thing, the Lord taking us out of the apostate church, into the dessert to change and test us to perfect in us as we grow more and more into his likeness. a ready vessel a witness in these end days.

    It I as you have said, we were never met to be in the wilderness becoming content and complacent and forsaking the gathering together of the true Remnant of Jesus Christ. It is by faith we overcome, we move forward seeking the perfect will of God, keeping our lamps trimmed workers in the harvest fields.

    Many that are so comfortable and settled in the wilderness are going to miss his appearing, The Lord has always moved among his people. I am not speaking of the rapture here but his very presence,.

    Saints, the Lord himself has risen and is calling his remnant together. He is calling her into action to go forth and declare the goodness of God he is calling forth his witnesses and he inhabits the praises of his people when two or more of his faithful are gathered together he is in their midst it is such a time as this when healing and deliverance come and an overwhelming sense of his beauty and his love and the weight of his glory comes.

    I know this to be absolutely true, I have cried out for quite some time now for agape face to face fellowship, knowing this is God’s perfect will for his remnant to assemble together, never giving up very persistant in my prayers lately with a passion in my heart crying out to God, and friends my prayers have been answered, but not without action on my part, fervent prayer and I traveled over 200 miles to a small gathering of a little remnant church of Christ’s saints out in the middle of no where in Oklahoma, myself and others seeking out Christ’s remnant, from different states came to gather with them and each other.

    It was just wonderful, such precious dedicated saints of God whom truly hunger for the Lord and sweet fellowship, I left a part of my heart there, it was hard to leave .I received prayer and healing, it was the Lord that sent me there to a little room full of his precious remnant our spirits engaged as one in Christ, seeking the Lord and worshipping together fellowshipping together taking communion together, eating meals together daily a Prophetic song from a brother, reading of the word, a word from brother Brian the pastor of this little church, about the compelling love of Christ,, prayer, a word of knowledge and Jesus came the weight of his glory fell among us, this gathering was later followed by testimonies, my heart is full of love for this tiny congregation out in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma, and the remnant who journeyed there also. My prayers go out for them all.

    You whom are reading here I know the Lord is going to have these places begin to rise up, pray for them, cry out to the Lord for them do not give up do not become to comfortable, take action, the Lord is raising up forerunners whom are to prepare the way of the Lord whom will be calling the remnant together. I believe he will bring divine fellowships, keep praying for this, please pray for the little church in Oklahoma, let us pray for and encourage one another, brother Keith, keep obeying the Lord, keep preaching his truth guard his truth, keep preaching his love his righteousness and the gospel of Jesus Christ, teach your small little remnant of people to pray and to trust the Lord.and to love one another staying on that narrow path.

    I know this is long, but I just had to witness the compelling love of God and how he desires to bring us together those whom truly love our Lord. His witnesses reaching the harvest in these end of days. This is what I call real revival, Praying for youguys here also. lynn

  35. Lynn 1 Jul 19th 2013

    Tyrone, this is what is beginning to happen what you just posted, Praise the Lord.

    Quote :from Andrew
    “Meanwhile, God’s true remnant will be being purified, tried as by fire, until every impurity is gone – prepared as a Bride fit for her King – pure and holy, “without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing” (Eph 5:27). This will be the company of saints who will bring in the great last-days harvest of souls, and who will preach the gospel of the kingdom in all the earth with great authority and power, and with signs and wonders following, before the end comes.”

    The time has come the Lord has called for action.
    Blessings, lynn

  36. Lynn 1 Jul 19th 2013

    This is what I agree with.
    Jesus is zealous for God´s church on earth. Do we have the same
    zeal today? Jesus said there would be a price to pay if we followed
    Him. Are we willing to pay that price? It will cause division and
    some Christians will fight it because it seems to be something
    that will destroy the church. I can honestly say on my behalf that
    I have absolutely no intent of destroying God´s church. I love the
    church and therefore I want to rescue it. I love God´s people and
    I love God – and that is why I do what I do. The only difference is
    that my view of what God´s church is, is different from that of
    many other people.

    I believe the remnant coming forth now understands and is ready to pay the price, and understands the coming persecution, ready vessels for the task set before us.

  37. Kristy Hansen Jul 19th 2013

    So pleased to see this comment…. it’s been a long time coming. And from reading the previous comments it’s obvious there are many who are feeling the very same thing. It is so encouraging to read the other comments and know that none of us are going through the fiery testing alone.
    One Scripture in particular the Lord has impressed upon me for such a time as this is Isaiah 58… basically the whole chapter is relevant for what we are about to go through.
    Many of God’s people have also been led to go back to their Hebrew roots [read Romans Chapters 9-11], but even the Messianic movement needs reformation as much of their systems are also based on the same corrupt Nicolaitan system that is in most churches today.
    So many of today’s Christians also do not realize that much error was incorporated into our belief systems at the Council of Nicea, and this error has continued on without question. Or if you do question it you are labelled as a heretic.
    Shalom to all the Saints who love the Truth

  38. David Marsh Jul 19th 2013

    Reformation – To reform back to the original model or structure.
    Understand and pursue the N.T. ekklesia model and you will have reformation.

    David Marsh.

  39. Andrew Jul 19th 2013

    Yes – but “the right structure” and ‘models’ are not what this thing will be built out of.

    True moves of God are always built out of PEOPLE – His “lively stones”.

    So yes – we do need anointed leaders. Just like the early church did.

    I used to think we just had to get the “structure” right – and all else would follow. After long years I finally saw that it is the PEOPLE with anointing from Jesus to BE THE BODY – that will make the difference.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  40. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    The purification of the remnant that Strom talked about in 1996 has been ongoing since the Fall.

    God calls out his remnant to come out of the world system and Walk in union with Him.
    He consecrates them, sets them apart from the world system/kingdom of darkness, and makes them a unique people.
    They are consecrated and set apart (chosen) to CARRY HIS PRESENCE INTO THE WORLD OF DARKNESS.

    Just as He gave us a VISUAL EXAMPLE/PATTERN with the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Every item of the Tabernacle was consecrated and set apart for the service to God…….and the items that symbolized God were solid gold (which means completely pure through and through) and the items that symbolize men who have been consecrated and purified were made of wood and covered with gold.

    His Shekinah Glory Presence DWELT in the Tabernacle in the Ark of the Covenant.
    The Ark, His Glory Presence, was taken into the world of darkness (Canaan) before the land could be overcome and taken possession of.

    God has not changed!
    We have the Ark of the Covenant DWELLING IN US…..His Glory Presence and Goodness DWELLS INSIDE OF EVERY born-again person.

    The scriptures are a chronological record/testimony of those who are the called out/chosen remnant of each generation.
    Each generation had the same calling on them as Adam and Eve. To overcome the world of darkness and take possession for the Kingdom of Heaven.

    The remnant of each proceeding generation has INCREASED IN NUMBER……and now that we are at the END of the end times………….

  41. Lightning Storm Jul 19th 2013

    AMEN! ….. Andrew Strom

  42. I agree here with Brother Torben, this is definitely what the Body of Christ needs in this hour.

    Thinking about this though, I can see where it will take an Apostolic anointing with men given wisdom by the leading of the Holy Spirit to bring God’s sheep together. This in turn will open a door to revival that will reach out to the lost in the world.

    Only with “God” in total control of His church through anointed ministry called to be servants.


  43. John Safford Jul 20th 2013

    For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one: Rom_3:3 Rom_3:10

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:22

    Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift. 2Co_9:15

    Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

  44. Me too Jul 20th 2013

    I believe God is awakening His people, I personally know many who are feeling the same tug of theHoly Spirit. I know there are those who really love and serve The Lord with all their hearts, and truly care for those they pastor. In all honesty though, being a Christian for over thirty years, I have to say I really only know of one or two men of God who were actual shepards. I have seen a lot of changes in the body of Christ over the years and not a lot of it is good or God. This is why so many are feeling the pull to seek for a true book of Acts fellowship.

  45. Stella Jul 20th 2013

    Jesus did not come to establish religions; but to reform that which was lost long before he was born; He came to establish back the way of life that God from the beginning had laid out for a people he had created.; but, Adam and eve by disobeying his commandment disobeyed and it brought forth death unto the whole humankind. After his fall he because of coming short of the glory of God and found themselves naked Adam himself introduced a form of religion thinking that by them offering up burnt sacrifices unto God he would find justification. But God told him. On the day you partake of the forbidden fruit you shall die.
    Sin brings forth death. Religion has been from the time Adam fell in disobedience. From that time on; humanity has developed every form of religion and with these religions every kind of idolatry which also brought forth the destruction ( flood) in the first age. After the flood not long afterwards; because Noah and his sons had lived before the flood and had witnessed every kind of religions which were already in place before the flood; and it was brought over and re-established again and the whole mess started all over again. The Bible ) word) says: that death was from Adam until Moses. When God gave them the ten commandments to follow and do them. Well the peoples ( children of Israel) and even those who today like them have not done what God has commanded for us to do also brought forth again the religions of old. Religions of man has been the whole problem. Not speaking about those who truly know the Lord outside of mans religions. Every religion has its creeds and rules to follow for those who join their religions; no different then today. This is why its called ” Mystery Babylon the mother of harlots” Come out of her my people lest you also perish .
    God in this hour will do away with every kind of religion and creeds and rules of man. When Jesus come back he will restore all things ,” called the restoration of all things ” and every Nation, peoples, and tongues, will have only one law, one ruler, only one way of life , which was the very way in which God from the beginning had established; which was from the beginning before the fall of man.
    The word of God says; That the whole creation ( humankind) is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God = ( 144,000) which will come back with Jesus when he comes and they will rule man with a rod of iron and every man will bow and confess that he ( alone) is God and no other, and all things will be restored again and then peace upon everyone shall be established..

  46. I’ve been feeling a great need to complete the reformation for many years. However, I do not agree that the first reformation was started by Martin Luther. It was started by Savonarola, who was martyred about 20 years before Martin Luther built upon what he began. For information about what I mean regarding Savonarola, I highly recommend the book – The Last Revival – by Robert Mears. One of the main things that needs to be done to complete the reformation is to understand the sin of denominationalism. Incorporating a church puts it under international law under the UN, which has a luciferian agenda. Denominationalizing a church also makes it more of a business than a body of believers. The first denomination was the Roman Catholic Church, which took the body into Babylonian captivity. While many church groups have cleansed themselves from RC heresies, they have not made a complete break from their apostate practices if they do not unincorporate and undenominationalize. So many things in Protestant churches are still wedded to Rome. This is what makes them daughters of the Babylonian whore. Those that still practice infant baptism are also daughters of the woman, who rides the beast. Thus, we have a long way to go to complete the reformation. I applaud your friend for his insights into this.

  47. I n scripture there are :
    Two churches the true and the false.
    Two women, the true and the harlot
    Two Jesus ‘This Jesus whom God raised up’ and another who we do not preach-again the imposter.
    Two ways, man verse God
    Which church are we referring to the true has always been and always will ! The false will be destroyed..

    “Having a personal relationship with God is the promise of the Bible. In God.s church you meet normal people who have had an extraordinary experience.

    The new testament of the Bible describes a church that changed the world, full of people who knew God. and in the tru still do), It talks about salvation as a foundation experience from an answering God.

    Jesus didn’t die and rise again to bring us dead religion. He came to fulfill God’s plan, and pour out the ‘Promise of the Father’ on mankind of every race and colour.

    He didn’t rely on finding strong, smart, ‘good people’. Instead He sent the Holy Spirit to change people. He called it being born again. Afterwards, nothing would ever be the same!
    Ar we willing to join such a group?
    I could say much more.

  48. Lightning Storm Jul 20th 2013

    Amen…….. Stella and Michael.

    I have found it very interesting that man makes up his own RELIGION…..even it that man has never been raised in a denomination and knows nothing about the bible or any religions.

    I have met religious men behind the literal prison bars…..they make up their own religion.

  49. When I read this article, I kept thinking that the next “reformation” needs to be a “metamorphosis”. Like the caterpillar in the cocoon that grows and changes, it eventually needs to “emerge” from the cocoon and leave it behind. The Christian “church systems” have provided a “cocoon” of sorts for believers, but we are in an age when the body of Christ needs to “emerge” from the “church / religious systems” and become all that Jesus has proclaimed it will be. I am reminded of the phrase about new wine cannot be poured into old wine skins. Our Lord desires to pour “new wine” into the body, but that cannot be done in the current state. Some individuals may change and receive the “new wine”, but the corporate body needs a drastic metamorphosis to be prepared for such and outpouring of the Spirit.

  50. Robin Kerr Jul 20th 2013

    Well said Torben, thank you Andrew,

    We need to forget about putting band aids on the problems in our
    Churches and take the axe to the root of the problem which is SIN
    in the body of Christ.
    The ministry of the OT Profits was always REPENTANCE, calling
    Gods people to repent of their sin and to obey His commandments
    and to live holy and pure and sanctified lives. The ministry of John
    the Baptist was Repentance and the first words Jesus uttered was
    “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near,” and the last words He spoke was to 5 of the 7 Churches of Asia in Rev: chs. 2-3 was

    Tragically our Evangelical Churches have so many so called
    “Christians” who have been attending for years and they go
    home from Church and live just like the world for the rest of the week. It comes back to the preaching ministry of the pulpit. How
    long is it since you heard a real powerful sermon on “SIN” like that of Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the hands of an angry God.”
    with people shaking and crying in their seats and calling out to God for mercy and forgiveness. God hates sin and He always
    punishes sin.

    And how long is it since you have heard a powerful message on
    “Repentance” The word means, a change of heart, a change of
    attitude towards God and towards sin, it means a total change of the direction of your life. Repentance means an 180 degrees turn
    around from serving sin and embracing Jesus Christ as your
    Saviour and Lord.

    That’s why the Gospel we preach has two sides to it, law and grace. The Law was given to reveal sin in mankind and no man
    can truly repent of his sin until the convicting power of the Holy
    Spirit reveals to him that he is a SINNER and that he needs to do
    something urgently about it. That’s when we have the joy of
    explaining to them the LOVE of God and Jesus Christ’s atoning
    sacrifice of bearing his sin and dying in his place.

    That is why we need to be preaching the Gospel in our Churches,
    preaching sin and repentance so that our congregations can come under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and repent
    and find forgiveness in God’s free offer of salvation in Jesus Christ.
    Some have never really been born again, some are backslidden
    and many are living in sin.

    It’s the preaching of the Gospel that will turn the Church around and bring Revival. God will not hear our cries until we clean up our
    act. Before the lost, drawn by the Holy Spirit, will come to our Churches, we must deal with sin in God’s House. Once God’s
    people truly repent of their sin and start to again live by the WORD
    of the living God, hungering after Holiness of life and a pure heart
    and righteous living and seeking to be more and more like Jesus. Until this happens we will never see Revival.

    The old man, the flesh, the carnal nature, all of the self life needs to be put to death on the blood stained cross daily. Gal: 2-20. I died in Him and He liveth in me. Hallelujah!

    That is when God will release those who He has made ready for
    The Last Reformation .

    Bless you mightily,

    Robin Kerr

  51. Agree. And tonight I just noticed the earlier post of Torben’s healing video. I am excited that God is still in the business of healing, even in these days of doubtful disputations with church people and am believing for myself and others that this is what we are to do.

    After years of being hunkered down in spiritual hiding and without a church, my family and I went on vacation. My son and husband went biking and I decided to drive to the marina for an island cruise. As I was driving towards town, I saw a young man near a crosswalk in the street and slowed to let him walk, but he was hitchhiking and thought I stopped to give him a ride. I decided this is it, I’m going to put actions and be part of the new reformation. I motioned for him to get in, and I immediately started the conversation about Jesus. And I joyfully found out he was attending a church, albeit he was feeling rejected by members who didn’t fellowship with him outside of church. He was from Haiti and needing to be with people his age. I told him I’d pray for him and he was amazed that I was concerned about him, as he felt the racist attitudes all around him.

    I am amazed at how the Lord can schedule meetings when we least expect it. I’m afraid to pick up strangers or hitchhikers and never do, but this just was a God thing. I am remembering this man who is struggling and praying for him, and promised I’d pray for a good wife for him! The Lord brought us together and I felt like his mom, giving him direction about how many churches play religion, and how the church can be grievous to God, and for him not to give up the fight.

    If we’re sick, we can’t go to “Straight Street”. I know it must be God’s will that we pray the prayer of faith and receive his healing, if we want to be His Ambassadors, or for whatever reasons. These signs follow those who serve and love Him. I’ve been wresting about what is God’s will with my odd variety of chronic pains and issues for years. But with all glory to God and thankfulness, He has cleaned my body, through surgery, of cancer, this past Spring, and I thank you Jesus, and want to encourage anyone here that He is so merciful and we are commanded through scripture to ask. If anyone tells any of you that we must suffer the thorn in the flesh, remind them, that yes, that may be so, but I know His word says in the epistles that we can hope and ask our Father for healing. We can ask the elders to anoint us with oil and pray for the sick; We can’t be brought low by those who remind us of God’s unwillingness to heal others, we are encouraged in His word to ask Him as long as we have breath. Thank you Andrew and all those who pray and exercise faith and Torben for the videos on healing. May the Lord bless you all.

  52. I remember walking out of Sunday services, feeling despondent and confused and couldn’t shake this awful feeling of aloneness and defeat. It took several years before I realized I was feeling the inadequacy of myself as a true disciple. It was like we were in a factory, going through the same motions every week, or 3 times a week. Hearing a message, packaged and repackaged again, hearing and hearing, but not doing anything when we left the pew. I realized, we, were not participants in the church that Jesus Christ is building, but that man built. Pastors were content to have us sit at their feet and clap and amen their every word, and we would get a chastisement for not “performing” more church works and volunteering time and energy towards the pastors’ goals, which had nothing to do with going out in the highways and biways. And I felt when they preached on repentence and sin, there was a subtle hint they were putting the guilt trip on us on certain sins, especially those about not tithing or supporting the pastor in every way.

    My depression after coming home on Sunday evening was a real sense of feeling abandoned. What and why was I feeling so innefective? We are so occupied with working and keeping our families and homes and responsibilities and the world demands our constant attention and this isn’t the way the brethren should be living. We either get off the roller coaster called the world, and decide to lay down everything and start over from scratch and leave our hometowns and go where the need is greatest, or we just mull in our same old juices day in and day out, without evidence of the gifts following us.

    We can’t do church anymore the way it’s been. It never was meant to be done this way. Somewhere we got complacent and allowed leaders to create this institutional pew-sitting ceremony that relieved our consciences with platitudes, yet we were accomplishing nothing for the Lord. Churches are like gated communities. Entering a lobby of a church is like walking in a movie theatre. We pay our tithe (ticket fee), are entertained by the music, and listen to the usual 20 or 30 minute-timed sermon. Then an altar call, and the minister gives a look like he wants to halt the show and go home. Not that every church behaves like this, thankfully, but still, it does not give us hands-on training, like a student nurse. A student nurse does her class training, but needs to do her resident training in a hospital to get the feel of working directly with her patients. This is what we should be doing, and I feel ashamed that I gave so little to the outside, instead performing tasks for the pastors and his little kingdom. I would be told whatever we did for our pastor’s church, was a direct service to God, and had believed it until I could believe it no more. The thing is, we in the Western Hemisphere are so occupied with materialism and entertainment, compared to other parts of the world and many today are rebelled against the gospel, and Paul instructed his disciples to go and where they were ignored, to shake the dust off their sandals and go somewhere else.

    Our churches today stay on the same plot of land for years and we stay, whether we can be effective or not. Not every church member can be a disciple, but in today’s church buildings, no one is encouraged to be a disciple. They’re willing to encourage the youth to do missionary work, but they require that youth to go through several years of bible college training, which costs an arm and a leg. The pastor wants every member to be his listener, his financial provider. No wonder we’re not seeing miracles and souls saved. Every member is encouraged all to be arms. Pastors will not encourage their members to be feet, shod with the gospel because they don’t want to lose them.

  53. Lightning Storm Jul 20th 2013

    WOW Marie!

    You have done a great job of exposing things that most people do not want to think about, let alone acknowledge out loud.

    You have hit a whole boat-load of nails on their heads!

    Keep testifying like that….the truth will set people free…free from DENIAL, free from SELF-DECEPTION, free from IDOLATRY, etc etc etc.

  54. David Marsh Jul 20th 2013

    Hi Andrew, one and all,

    Andrew said;
    “Yes – but “the right structure” and ‘models’ are not what this thing will be built out of.
    True moves of God are always built out of PEOPLE – His “lively stones”.

    Andrew, if one understands the true model of the N.T. ekklesia – then the PEOPLE will naturally become the “living stones”.

    It is impossible to have a N.T. ekklesia without following the biblical model of the N.T. ekklesia.

    The biblical model of the N.T. ekklesia is based upon Jesus first ekklesia which was comprised of Himself and the 12 disciples. Later on the anointed apostles built the Book of Acts churches (or ekklesias on Jesus 1st model).

    The ‘leaders’ (as was Jesus and later on the apostles) were (every one of them) submitted / humble / Spirit Baptised – Holy Spirit led servants of God.
    The true N.T. ekklesia could not begin in any other way.

    The key was that the ‘leaders’ were Holy Spirit led, enabling God to become the Head of the group.

    When God began to move, He guided His servants to begin building an assembly. The basic doctrines were taught but more importantly, the skills of walking with God by His Spirit were taught to every member. The immediate Baptisms in the Spirit purpose was to bring every member into an immediate Holy Spirit relationship with God.
    The book of Acts records much interaction with the Holy Spirit within the church meetings.

    The aim of the ekklesias was to disciple every member to begin an intimate / obedient relationship with Christ.
    God’s plans for every member varied – and that is why we have the 5 fold ministry. God wants a church whereby every member is obedient to Him.

    That is briefly God’s model of the N.T. ekklesia church.

    God bless you all,

    David Marsh.

    I spent many years researching the Book of acts ekklesia – anyone who wants a free pdf copy of my research work is welcome.
    [email protected]

  55. Friends, This is a good topic – thank you.

    I got an email tonight about a “revival outpouring in Wales” you can get a taste of it on this link…

    Like many on this forum, this is NOT what I am waiting for.

    While I rejoice with those who rejoice about healings and miracles, I am hoping for much, much more…

    My first hope is for REAL LOVE that transforms how we live and relate as recorded in Acts chapters 2 to 5.

    It alarms me that what is called “revival” fails to transform hearts in a way that leads brothers and sisters to really care for each other, sharing together every day in a fluid way that doesn’t need meetings to keep the “momentum” going. Folks really loving each other, to the end that there was not a needy one among them. (Acts 4:34)

    This is my hope.

    I just cant relate to ‘meeting Christianity’ without love any more.

    Love is the acid test…

    Jesus change our hearts.

    This is my deep desire, for then HE will be seen…


    Carl Emerson.

  56. John Safford Jul 20th 2013

    Accepting Jesus as your personal savior, while honored by God as a sincere seeking of His grace, is a very clever lie of Satan. It is in the same vein as “Hath God not said?”. Think of it this way – by your faith and spiritual wealth you can hire Jesus as your personal butler. When Jesus said (about the rich young ruler) how difficult it is for the rich to get into the Kingdom of Heaven he was not referring to the ruler’s money but to the ruler’s richness in human righteousness, which was great from his youth. The rich young ruler was soliciting Jesus to see if he could hire him as his adviser (butler). (Sort of like the Batman superhero hiring his faithful and all wise butler to assist him in all his righteous struggles with evil.) But Jesus loved him none-the-less and gave him the way to true righteousness by submitting himself to the righteousness of God. Which, of course, he didn’t , which is why it is to humanly righteous people that Jesus says “repent” and change your mind to recognize your righteousness as unrighteousness and receive the true righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.

  57. Barry Schmidt Jul 20th 2013

    It is dificult to give meaningful comments when the nature and practice of the “reformation”!Torbon speaks of is not even mentioned. He mentions change , that change will be resisted but is very vague on exactly what changes he proposes.

    He says of Luther’s reformation, “one might say this reformation was theological.”

    What reformation IS NOT THEOLOGICAL ???

    No one can consistently live in a way that is inconsistent with his theology ( the way he believes about God. I’m fact EVERYONE acts the way they do BECAUSE OF THEIR THEOLOGY. Not their creed ( what they SAY they belove about God) but what they ACTUALLY believe about God in their hearts.

    Everyone’s lifestyle is the result of their habits; their habits the result of their actions, their actions the result of their words and thoughts- their thoughts and words the result of their BELIEFS ( how they perceive God and reality to be).

    Where I suspect Torbon is wrong and will fail is that he believes you can reform the church BY REFORMING HER HABITS. This is the same grace error that every reformer after Luther made and which doomed the church to perpetuate her ways.

    WE CHABGE BY BELIEVING- and that by changing our perspective on God ( our theology)!

    Only God can change out perspective on God because until the church sees God the way he really is she will not change and the only way the church will see God is IF HE REVEALS HIMSELF AS HE IS!

    This is why PRAYER IS OUR ONLY WEAPON – we need to call upon Him who is hiding Himself to this generation. When we see God – WE WILL SEE REFORMATION!!!!

    Every other solution is just straw- a clipping of the fruit- only to see more bad fruit spring for the only root which is biblical theology.

  58. Barry Schmidt Jul 20th 2013

    In Jesus we see God accurately.
    “he is the exact representation of His being and the radiance of His glory”

    It is by the preaching of Jesus PLUS NOTHING that the church is reformed.

    Why don’t we get this????
    Preaching reformation, or holiness, or change WILL NEVER BRING REFORMATION!!!

    Jesus is the ONLY GREAT REFORMER!
    Jesus is the only transformer.

    Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24 NIV)

    For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2 NIV)

  59. Thank you so much, Andrew, for posting this article. Although Torben is very vague about what he means by reformation in the article, his website is spectacular and extremely encouraging and inspiring. Thank you so much for introducing us. I will be a fast friend of Torben’s. I wholeheartedly agree with the two of you about how the church needs reformation.

  60. Biblical Reformation: REPENTANCE
    “Go near and hear all that the LORD our God will say, and speak to us all that the LORD our God will speak to you, and we will hear and do it.’ “And the LORD heard your words, when you spoke to me. And the LORD said to me, ‘I have heard the words of this people, which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their descendants forever!
    Deuteronomy 5:27-29
    May YHWH be Elohim and every man a liar. Shalom

  61. Lightning Storm Jul 20th 2013

    Barry Schmidt….You said it….but then you changed it in the next sentence.
    “In Jesus we see God accurately.
    “he is the exact representation of His being and the radiance of His glory”

    It is by the preaching of Jesus PLUS NOTHING that the church is reformed.” UNQUOTE

    Barry…..Jesus came as a man, like you, YET HE WAS/IS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION of His (the Father) being and the RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY.

    So if that is how people got to KNOW THE ONE TRUE GOD in that time, then why isn’t it the same today?


    It is not about “talking about Jesus”, it is about BEING THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OFJESUS, THE MAN…..being conformed to His Image.

    People of the world are sick and tired of hearing all the “blah blah blah” ABOUT God…..they want to SEE God….they NEED to SEE God.
    That is why they call christians hypocrites….they hear them blah blah blah, but they don’t SEE ANY DIFFERENCE between a christians life and their life!
    Anyone can quit doing sinful things…..just go to rehab or counseling.

    If following Jesus is ONLY about escaping hellfire and brimstone, most people will take their chances so they can have a good life NOW.

  62. Lightning Storm, you said “Are we not called to be the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY?’

    Are you talking about having Jesus in you and the world being able to see Christ in us? The verse you used is a proof that Jesus is God and is not something you can apply to us as His followers. You left out half of verse that shows it does not apply to us….

    Hebrews 1:3

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    3 This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of God’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.[a]

    “upholding all that exists by his powerful word” completes the thought of who Jesus is and we can never be that. But if you meant that people should be able to see The Lord because Christ is in us and He is with us, then I agree. The world needs to see that we love The Father and that we will do anything He tells us to do.

  63. fabakary Jul 20th 2013

    Sometimes the ways of God can be hard to be defined. One time He may appear flexible another time he may appear to be narrow. Another time he may appear to be only for the “north” another time He appears to be only for the “east” and sometimes it can look like He was with all of them at the same time. While we are busy trying to define His ways He is busy working undistracted by our petty traditions and prejudices. If any man anywhere will open His heart He goes in and work, His principle is as simple as that. But we men have invented many things. We want to keep him in our boxes but He keep ignoring us not even explaining us what He is doing with those in the other boxes. If we think he is not working in some of the other “boxes” many times He just remain silent about it , doing His work knowing He lost nothing. He is working He knows how and when to deal with the boxes but He is working.

  64. Lightning Storm said: “People of the world are sick and tired of hearing all the “blah blah blah” ABOUT God…..they want to SEE God….they NEED to SEE God. That is why they call christians hypocrites….they hear them blah blah blah, but they don’t SEE ANY DIFFERENCE between a christians life and their life! Anyone can quit doing sinful things…..just go to rehab or counseling. If following Jesus is ONLY about escaping hellfire and brimstone, most people will take their chances so they can have a good life NOW.”

    I agree, and I will add that there are 2.1 billion professing Christians in this world, if all of them were truly born of God and following Jesus Christ as obedient disciples, I believe this world would be a much better place!

    JeffM, the scriptures tell us clearly that Christ in us is the hope of glory, not just in Heaven but right now!

    Lightning Storm said: “It is not about “talking about Jesus”, it is about BEING THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OFJESUS, THE MAN…..being conformed to His Image.”

    Look at what Paul said:

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18

    “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

    Jesus as the Son of Man gave the first disciples the same glory that He had on earth!

    John 17:20-22

    “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:”

    Also remember Stephen the martyr? While he spoke to the people in the council his face was like the face of an angel! Is that not the glory and conformation of the inner-man (soul&spirit) into the image of Christ?

    Acts 6:15

    “And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel.”

  65. Lightning Storm, The unbelievers in the first century could SEE and FEEL the difference between themselves and the disciples of Jesus!

    Acts 5:12-13

    “And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.”

    The scriptures tell us ‘NONE of the rest DARED JOIN THEM!’ Why is that? Because of the glory of Jesus, the Spirit, Grace, and presence of God IN them!

  66. Claudia Jul 20th 2013

    JeffM says: ““upholding all that exists by his powerful word” completes the thought of who Jesus is (as illustrated in the below verse JeffM gave us) AND WE CAN NEVER BE THAT.”

    Hebrews 1:3–(CJB) This Son is the radiance of the Sh’khinah, the very expression of God’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG’dulah BaM’romim.[a]

    Yet….scripture states just the opposite….some straight from Jesus’s own mouth!

    There is no doubt that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Son of YHWH. Verse 1=”Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the Arm of YHWH revealed?”

    YHWH’s Arm is Jesus Christ, Yeshua. The Arm is part of the ONE WHOLE.

    Jesus said, concerning us “…THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE.”

    John 17: (Jesus, praying to the Father) (1)(2) Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. GLORIFY Your Son, that Your Son also may GLORIFY You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him.” (3)And this is ETERNAL LIFE, that they may KNOW YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ who You have sent. (4)-(7) I have GLORIFIED You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, GLORIFY Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. I have manifested your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. (8) For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. (9) I pray for them, I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. (10)And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am GLORIFIED in them. (11) Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE.

    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known, But we know that when He appears, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is.

    John 14: 6-24 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him. Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; (HE IS ONE WITH THE FATHER) so how can you say ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; (JESUS IS NOT AT THIS TIME SITTING ON THE THRONE WITH YHWH.) but the Father who dwells in Me DOES THE WORKS. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, THE WORKS THAT I DO HE WILL DO ALSO; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name that I will do, that the Father may be GLORIFIED in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He (the Helper/Holy Spirit)may abide with you forever, even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, who the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He (Spirit of Truth) dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. A little while longer and the world will see me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At THAT DAY you will know that I AM IN MY FATHER, AND YOU IN ME, AND I IN YOU. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.”


    Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be REVEALED.

    1 COR. 15:51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We (Believers) will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and SHALL GO IN AND OUT, and find pasture. (What lies beyond this DOOR? ONENESS with YHWH’S Will! It is the only way to KNOW Him! And, when we are transfigured, like Christ we can go in and out….just as Christ can do now…timeless.)


    Revelation 21: 5-7=And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    Revelations 21: 22-23=And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the Light thereof.

    Revelations 22: 1==And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of THE THRONE of God and of the Lamb.

    Only ONE throne which they both sit on. Sounds like two entities combined within One to me. My guess is that we, when restored to Oneness, are the waters proceeding out of the throne. John 7:38 =(Christ (the Fountain of Living Waters) spoke) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Revelation 3:21=To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me IN MY THRONE, even as I also overcame, and AM SET DOWN with my Father IN HIS THRONE. ONE THRONE.

    Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Revelation 1: 7-8=Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY.

    And, at His coming, the Mystery will be revealed!

  67. Claudia Jul 20th 2013

    The OVERCOMERS are those who have overcome their own will to be replaced by YHWH’s Will. YHWH’s Authority. We can be ONE as Jesus said, if we can set aside our will and walk through the DOORWAY provided by the LAMB Jesus Christ and be all and all in Christ.

    Satan could not do that….satan wanted the authority, his way, and because of that, he turned away….closed himself off from the transforming LIGHT which is Jesus Christ, and he will ultimately face the 2nd death everlasting.

  68. Quote: That is why they call christians hypocrites….they hear them blah blah blah, but they don’t SEE ANY DIFFERENCE between a christians life and their life! quote………….

    Lighting Storm

    There is several ways to look at this. In NT times they saw the difference in Christians lives. What did they do? They crucified many, burned many at the stake, tortured some, throwed many to the lions.

    The world hates Christians no matter what and will try to find fault and make excuses so they can continue in their sin and try to justify it. The best way to do this is to find all the flaws with Christians lives then fill justified.

    If someone is faithful as best they know how the world will still persecute them.

    Just some thoughts on this matter.


  69. David Marsh Jul 21st 2013

    ” It is dificult to give meaningful comments when the nature and practice of the “reformation”!Torbon speaks of is not even mentioned. He mentions change , that change will be resisted but is very vague on exactly what changes he proposes.
    He says of Luther’s reformation, “one might say this reformation was theological.”
    What reformation IS NOT THEOLOGICAL ??? ”

    My dear Barry, this last great Reformation is entirely Theological. It is true that Torben has not spoken very much of the Scripture concerning the rebuilding or reform(ing) – ation of the 1st Century Book of Acts church.
    But what Torben is promoting is the seeking and finding and following the leadings of the Holy Spirit which is very much a foundational principle of the inner workings of the 1st Century Book of Acts church.

    My research is built upon the Scripture and until the N.T. model is pointed out – by the Scripture – very few people are able to see it.
    I have had many many responses of people getting back to me exclaiming how wonderful it was when God helped them pull the old “historical church” blinkers off – to be able to finally see how our church was always meant to function.

    We have never, ever seen the N.T. church until now – and we still make the mistake of trying to fit the bible’s version of church with the ‘modern’ church version that we have only ever known. It will never work – because the biblical church and the ‘modern’ unbiblical church are as chalk and cheese.

    You ( and anyone else who wants a free copy) are most welcome to read through a free pdf file of my 10 years research (published in 2008).
    The Scriptural Book of Acts church is absolutely breath taking and beautiful and powerful.

    [email protected]

    God bless you

    David Marsh.

  70. Andrew Jul 21st 2013

    This article is just Torben’s “Intro” to the topic. Much more detail to come. And he is someone who is seeing God really move in new ways. So I respect his insights.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  71. Barry Schmidt Jul 21st 2013

    David Marsh – if i am hearing you correctly you are saying that Hearing the inner voice of the Spirit and following that voice is reformation towards the book of Acts- I agree with this statement 100%

    But that is only one aspect of true reformation.

    But what i am saying is this, “This “inner voice of the Spirit” IS JESUS CHRIST !!!!!

    lLightning Storm – preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified is not merely blah blah blah.
    When i spoke of Preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the ONLY path to true reformation what I am talking about is not merely some credal statement adhered to by billions of professing nominal Christians.

    What I mean is what the New Testament writers meant by that statement: NOTHING LESS THAN being absolutely abandoned to Jesus Christ alone PLUS NOTHING as our only source of life, truth and means of securing and maintaining GODS FAVOR, placing no confidence in ourselves whatsoever in anything relating to life and godliness AND meticulously obeying Jesus Christ’s in dwelling Spirit through both His written word -the Bible and His inner personal revelatory voice- both which will always be in complete agreement in every way.

    Thus the revelation of Jesus Christ and Him crucified IN THE CHURCH is TRUE REFORMATION!


    Any so called reformation that does not have Jesus as the source, the substance, the goal and the end IS DESTINED TO FAIL!

    Every revival in history has died FOR THIS REASON – it has moved from Jesus to SOMETHING ELSE OR SOMEONE ELSE!


    God will bless no other reformation.
    God will sanction no other reformation.
    God has ONE AGENDA for the church and the world: to sum up all things in His Son!!!

    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him (Ephesians 1:9, 10 NASB)

    to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21 NASB)

  72. Andrew – Can you please answer Keith’s questions to you above? It’s quite disturbing how you simply ignore what you don’t agree with or don’t want to face.

    Keith seems to have a valid point. Although it is somewhat counter to what is being spoken, it is spoken respectfully and with what seems to be a sincere heart. That should not matter.

    If he has misunderstood the heart of the message, can you not answer him simply in a spirit of love and kindness? That’s what Jesus would do.

    I have seen you ignore question after question on here, and I’m sure many others have as well.

    Answer the sincere questions brought to you please, because many see who never say a word.

    Believe me, your lack of response speaks volumes.

    As a leader, you should see this and care about the little ones who are watching.

  73. What we need is brokenness. The anointing will follow. Reformation will follow. All that is needed will follow.

    “If My people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray …”

    This is all we need to know. Nothing has to be fancy or a formula.

    Simple brokenness and crying out to God because we’re all just filthy rags without Him.

  74. Barry Schmidt Jul 21st 2013

    For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB)

    The problem isn’t that we want too much from God in all our wanting .
    The problem is that we don’t want THE ONLY THING HE WANTS TO KNOW AND SEE AMONG US: Jesus Christ and him crucified.

  75. Andrew Jul 21st 2013

    Sally – I did not see Keith asking me any questions.

    And when I re-read his post I still do not see him asking me any questions.

    BTW – This is not a “Q & A” area. It is for ‘Comments’ mostly from others – not me. That is, after all, what it is for.

    sadly, I cannot spend my days on here trying to reply to every comment.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  76. Barry Schmidt Jul 21st 2013

    I too liked Keith’s comments above. Most pastors are just men who love Jesus and have devoted their lives to feeding and taking care of Jesus sheep and oftentimes the devils weeds too!
    I was sitting in a congregation when Lenard Ravenhill was preaching. He reached down and pointed his boney finger at what I was sure was me and said, ” I hope you are next in line after the apostle Paul on judgement day.” ( Needless to say I shrunk down in horror and vowed to God I would do anything He asked but please don’t let me be next in line to Paul on judgement day!)

    Well I hope all you pastor floggers are next in line behind one of those faithful shepherds on judgement day!! And I hope God rebukes you to your face for every careless criticism you have made of His not so perfect pastors on that day!!!

    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Matthew 12:36 KJV)

  77. Andrew Jul 21st 2013

    I think it is the “system” that has been mostly criticized here, Barry.

    Not individuals.

    But people do tend to take it “personally”

    I ask that you please keep your own comments calm and respectful. I found the last one a little over-the-top.


    Andrew Strom.

  78. Marilyn Crow Jul 21st 2013

    `There once was a group of travellers who were walking through a deep, dark forest. They seemed to have lost their way. Finally they rested in a clearing around a camp fire, discussing which way to go.

    Some said, `We need to go back to the start,` while others said `No, just sit here & wait for the guide.` Another said,` I had a dream & it`s this way,` pointing in various directions. Then some one else cried `I see a sign in the sky & it`s pointing ….up.`

    They continued to discuss & point out the merits of their direction till finally a little voice piped up, `Excuse me, excuse me.` The adults looked down & their eyes followed the child`s hand as he pointed, `I saw the guide go through that hole.` Many laughed for the hole was in a hedge low to the ground with great spikes sticking out.

    `Nooooo, the guides coming back, so we`ll just sit here. besides our large backpacks wont get through that hole!` So many sat down & camped around the fire.

    However a few left their packs (of self importance, grandiose self ministry & giftings, their own interpretations & other people`s opinions). They carried only their torch of truth that lit the way , & bending down in the dirt they crawled through the prickly tunnel in the hedges.

    Blood was spilt, courage tested, but they learnt to pray & consider each other, till finally they came out into the bright sunlight.

    They called back to those behind at the campfire, but many had left & gone their separate ways & only a few were left seated on their large backpacks, chanting, `I`m sorry, I`m sorry…..` till finally the dying embers of the fire went out.

    Up ahead, through the prickly tunnel in the hedge, one who is `Watchful,` cried out, `Look…our guide…He`ll show us the way.` `Amen,` said Barry.

    (Let`s go on…..looking unto Jesus the author & finisher…….
    Heb. 12: 1 & 2)


  79. David Marsh Jul 21st 2013

    ” David Marsh – if i am hearing you correctly you are saying that Hearing the inner voice of the Spirit and following that voice is reformation towards the book of Acts- I agree with this statement 100%
    But that is only one aspect of true reformation.”

    Barry, yes it is only one aspect of reformation. Every reformation has brought the church a few steps back toward the original model. each time, there were a few men who pursued the Lord and His Holy Spirit to bring forth a fresh move of God.
    Each move petered out as the key leaders dropped off from the oppositions onslaught but the church by and large remained unchanged.

    However, the N.T. model is designed to permanently raise up a ‘Smith Wigglesworth’ within every member.
    The N.T. model sees every member practicing ‘walking
    in the Spirit’ at every meeting. It is extremely powerful.
    Unlike any church of today.
    The reformation is indeed about preparing every member to receive the Baptism in the Spirit and then walking in the power of that Spirit ( according to God’s leading and plans) ministering in power whether it be in Evangelism, as an apostle, prophesying, teaching, ministering healing, working miracles or whatever the Lord leads that servant to do.

    The N.T. model just doesn’t just give opportunity but it requires that the member becomes more Christ like in every way. Because when a servant hears and begins to follow God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit Himself teaches and disciples the member in every aspect of his character. When the member is ready, then the Lord will accept him to walk with Him.
    It is all about having a real relationship with Christ.

    The reformation looks exactly like the N.T. Book of Acts church. Only this coming reformation will be more powerful.

    God bless you
    David Marsh.

  80. Daniel Jul 21st 2013

    I agree with Andrew on this one Sally. He cannot answer every single question, otherwise he would be here day and night. In answer to Keith, I believe your confusion and hurt arise from (and I do not mean this in anyway as disrespectful to you) a blindness that all those in leadership have. Many of you have never been a sheep, or at least not for long. Immediately your “ability” is pointed out and you’re shipped off to “pastor school”. The problem is not you personally Keith, the problem is your position itself. (Now that’s not to say that no pastor is at fault, many are on an ego trip) Your position is honestly unscriptural, and you will find yourself worn out and weary (spiritually speaking) because you are not in God’s will (His will is food and drink to our souls). There is no such thing as a head pastor that has full authority over a flock, only overseers (plural) who look out for the sheep. The problem with your position is: 1) it hinders and stops the full-functioning of the entire body of Christ assemblied. 2) It leaves little to no room for the Holy Spirit to lead and take charge of your meetings. 3) It creates an unhealthy depenency on a man or woman, this leads to a innert and pew-warming group of believers. 4) It burns you out and puts a weight on your shoulders that the entire body was meant to carry.

    These are but a few of the things wrong with the one man head pastoral leadership model. Above all it is not Scriptural, therefore it is a tradition of man that makes void the Word of God, and as such it must be thrown out as wrong to practice. It is not those who do the most for God that enter into the kingdom, but those who do the will of the heavenly Father (I’m not speaking of a works salvation, only quoting Scripture). On judgement day we will not be judged on how much we did, but on whether our work was the Father’s work.

  81. Ken Everett Jul 21st 2013

    You want to ‘rescue the church’?

    Who’s church are we referring to?

    According to Matthew 16:18 Jesus Christ is building His Church, and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it.

    Do you think even for an instant that Jesus Christ has ‘lost control’ of His Church or that He is unable to ‘rescue’ it Himself?

    I’m sorry Andrew – I have followed your column for some years now and I am concerned that you have a misplaced idea of your personal role in the Church of Jesus Christ. I urge you to revert back to the place where you are understand exactly what you are able to in the physical realm, and to leave the Spiritual realm to Him Who has promised to bring to fruition His plans for His Bride….

    We should be busy: praying in faith for His Kingdom to come; being available and obedient in earnestly sharing the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God; as a friend of mine often says; we need to be Jesus ‘with skin on’ to the dying world.

    Nowhere in God’s Word are we instructed or encouraged to become ‘terrorists’ for the Kingdom of God. You are not able to change the status quo that exists in the ‘church system’ of today, and no amount of teaching or preaching will change the hearts of those who control and benefit from it.

    The change is already taking place. The true church is already ‘coming apart’ from those who choose to serve the god of mammon instead of the God of Creation. I see and meet ‘living stones’ in every body of God’s people and these people also see what you see, but continue to work and encourage while it is still day.

  82. Andrew Jul 21st 2013

    So God’s prophets and reformers who have a heart to see the church become “without spot or wrinkle” have no place then?

    Its all just wasted breath?

    That is not the church history that I know.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  83. Ken Everett Jul 21st 2013

    It is not the history of the Church that should concern us, but it’s FUTURE!

    Every prophecy we could ever need to see us through to the soon coming of Jesus Christ has already been given to us.

    I suspect that modern-day prophets, ‘reformers’ and ‘revivalists’ are more concerned with own ministries than in getting done with what we already have.

    God assures us in Acts 5:39 that if a move is from Him, nothing can stop it. We shall have to see if this movement to ‘rescue the church’ amounts to anything of substance,

    Bless you too!


  84. Barry Schmidt Jul 21st 2013

    Andrew – I apologize my brother. I read my comment again after reading your post and have to agree with you that my comment was a little over the top.

    I have to admit I am a little sensitive and probably bias and do get defensive when it comes to defending the Lords shepherds and am not immune to using the word to cut and slash at times.

    I will try to be more thoughtful next time.
    Thanks for the challenge.

  85. watchful Jul 21st 2013

    Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

    Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.

    Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

    Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

    Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

  86. Barry Schmidt Jul 21st 2013

    This reminds me of the Eph 4:1-13 passage that starts with the injunction for all to get along in the church “keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” – then it mentions the 5 fold leadership gifts.

    I think this admonition to get along is directed towards THOSE VERY LEADERS.
    Because these 5 differing ascension leader gifts have such deferring g perspectives they often tend to get overly critical of each other and the way each other sees Jesus and how His church should perform.
    The (true) Jesus apostle always wants to initiate and establish things.
    The ( true ) Jesus prophet wants things to be pure and healthy.
    the ( true) Jesus evangelist wants everyone on the streets.
    the (true) Jesus pastor wants the sheep to huddle together and be safe.
    And the ( true ) Jesus teacher wants everyone to get their belief structure biblical and true to reality.

    The fact is these people are still very much a work in progress and their zeal isn’t always Jesus produced.
    That’s why they start biting and criticizing one another to death!

    Lets all take the first 4 verses of Eph 4 seriously.
    ” make EVERY EFFORT to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace” – not through compromise or through forcing everyone to see Jesus OUR WAY.
    Bless you all!
    Barry the elder

  87. I here say more. by the Grace of God
    With great respect and love to you all
    The great reformation began on a certain night in Bethlehem 2 millennia ago and mankind still just does not get it!
    For the record the Great Founder of that reformation said “As it was in Noah’s day so it will be in mine ” (Jesus, Luke 17 26 – 30) – and remember what was it Noah found in the eyes of the Lord?
    How many were lifted by the flood, on the Ark, to the ‘new world’ and how many perished? by the same waters!
    Is not the same world today reserved to judgement and fire? Are we not filled with the Holy Ghost and fire has that fire not judged/purged us into righteousness with Him – if we continue to the end? as it was with the water is it the same fire that will cause the unbelief to perish?

    We are all participants in the great reformation – if we are willing and obedient.
    All our long dissertations, arguments, words ideas may be in all sincerity, yet indeed cheap! and may cost us dearly – we shall account for every word idly spoken (Math 12 36.)
    In contrast, God’s Word is inestimable in value – yet cost Him dearly, but is entirely free to us! ,
    Is there not a famine of it in the land?
    Te continuance of reformation is in our hands/hearts, if we opt out. God will raise up others – He always has!
    Maybe what we see as separate reformations, are only troughs, rises, in the same time-line/event..let’s get exited in the doing of it today.
    Pr Michael

  88. Claudia Jul 21st 2013

    Sally, Never fear…..what is coming and Planned will break everyone. Those who are Believers will rely only on YHWH….not upon themselves as they will be helpless via their own means…their “egos” will be shattered. Than all “works” will come directly from YHWH’s power and glory through them….if the “breaking” does not send them to unbelief. And, it will not if they were true Believers….wiling to give their lives for YHWH from the beginning of their Belief and commitment to His Son, our LAMB, and returning King of Kings, Alpha and Omega.

    Opportunities will abound for every household to be a “Church” to their community…to feed, cloth, protect, and reveal the Way of YHWH…His Doorway….Jesus Christ. Is that not what a Shepherd truly does?

    I often wonder how many on this list have experience in farming and animals. How many have had sheep herds and goat herds and have first hand experience in the behavior of same. There was a very important reason that Adam was placed in Eden with animals to tend. God never uses words in an idle manner….but choses words with many layers of understanding for our benefit and growth.

  89. Lightning Storm Jul 21st 2013

    AMEN……David Marsh and Daniel

    Father……In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Baptize all creation with Your Truth, wisdom, insight, understanding, and revelation, that we may know Your Heart, Your Mind, Your Plans, and Purposes.


  90. Reading comments and a few are being cautious and worried about the “vagueness” in Torben’s teaching.

    This is just my thought. Maybe “vagueness” is good. It proves that an apostle doesn’t have a man-made agenda in place. It means he’s going to allow the Holy Spirit to guide and lead the ministry. I know we, as past and present pew-sitters, are still stuck in our mind-set of traditions. It’s going to be hard to break free from the old mind-set. But it will be harder to follow an apostle’s leading if we have to get off of our comfortable couches.

    Maybe we shun a new revival/reformation because it will require sacrifice on our parts. It would be so much easier to just attend a service and drop an envelope in the offering and feel justified to go home and let the one ‘man’ and his staff do the Mary and Martha jobs.

    I think Torben is asking the church to be Mary’s now, in these last days. Of course, not all are apostle. Ephesians 4: 11 speaks of the gifts that He gave to men. “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ, til we all come to the unity of the faith,and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things
    into Him who is the Head – Christ – from whom the whole Body joined and knit together by, what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does it’s share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

    I gather from this that we were all supposed to be effective, not just pew sitters. After capitalism and the industrial revolution and the amassing of great fortunes, it influenced men’s mind and steered them away from an Acts church. When wealth was like so bountiful, it lured christians towards the plentiful fruit of materialism and seared their dedication to serve in an Acts capacity. So we see where we are today.

    I believe we should all have attended church to be “equipped for the work of ministry” and not just for “the edifying of the Body of Christ”. We sit in pews being edified continuously but are not being equipped for the work of ministry. Satan has entrapped us, entrapped pastors and leaders and ministries into thinking the status quo is effective and it isn’t. Satan used materialism and capitalism and wealth to tempt many in the church into thinking we can serve God AND mammom, and live luxuriously like the world.

    Each saint should be equipped and encouraged to follow their gift. Even sick and bedridden saints can use their gift, and elder christians should be taken seriously and respected as having been pruned and refined. We all want the young energetic ambitious pastor, (which is good), but ignore those seasoned christians who are shut-ins. These have the Lord’s gifts as well and we only look at the shiny beautiful people.

    What Torben and others like him are doing is re-gearing the early church into action. If we pick and critique it, it might mean we are not inclined to put much action into our talk.

  91. I agree with you my brother from Faith But here in Brazil I have faced strong resistance when speaking for example of Tithing. my vision is completely different than the denominations teach as absolute truth to control through fear of the Old Testament curses and spirits that the Bible does not mention.
    I want to see God’s people live like in the time of the early church in love, charity to the needy. without exploiting the poor.

    what u teach about tithing? what you believe about this?

  92. Brother Torban needs to get his facts straight. The Wesley brothers, John & Charles, did not live in the 19th century. The Wesleys lived during some of the most tumultuous times in European history:

    The French Revolution, the American War of Independence, The Industrial Revolution, the Great Lisbon Earthquake, The voyages of Captain Cook, the founding of the Illuminati, The start of the Napoleonic Wars.

    They were also contemporaries with J.S.Bach, George Frederick Handel, Joseph Haydn, W.A. Mozart, Antonio Stradivari, Antonio Vivaldi and the great English Hymn Writer Isaac Watts, Spanish painter Goya, William Hogarth, Joshua Reynolds, Jane Austin, Robert Burns, Daniel Defoe, Goethe, Alexander Pope, Walter Scott, Jonathan Swift, Voltaire, Swedenborg, Edmund Burke, Immanuel Kant.

    Their century saw many revolutionary discoveries and inventions: vaccines, oxygen, carbon dioxide, the Tuning Fork, the Atmospheric Steam Engine, the Piano, the Diving Bell, the Fire Extinguisher, the Mercury Thermometer, the Flying Shuttle and the Electrical Capacitor.

    The 18th Century was the Age of Enlightenment which saw challenges to the Status Quo in religion, Science, Politics. Its discoveries overturned many traditional concepts and introduced new perspectives on nature and man’s place within it. This all added to a sense of confusion, a desire for change and democracy.

    The Wesleys arrived at a pivotal period in English history. The Methodist Movement brought God within the experience of the common man as opposed to the formality of the State Sponsored Church. The Wesleys were not only Religious Reformers, but they believed in the necessity of ordinary people to be able to read and write. In order to know God people needed to know His Word, and this could be more effectively achieved if people could read it for themselves.

    The Wesleys were Arminian in their thinking. Calvinism was too fatalistic and Calvinist Ministers of religion were often hateful towards others. The Wesleys cared for the needs of others. In 1755 they were some of the first to organise a relief fund for the victims of the Great Lisbon Earthquake which devastated Portugal’s capital. Alongside the relief they preached the Gospel being some of the first foreign Missionaries to make inroads into that Staunchly Catholic Country. The Methodist Church was the first non-Catholic Church to be established in Portugal.

    The system they used was methodical, a methodical daily schedule, a methodical approach to preaching and a methodical way of life, which is why they were nicknamed “Methodists” by a group of mocking fellows. Rather than take offense John Wesley simply accepted the name as a good description of his approach and adopted the name.

    Today, more than ever, we must return to the Bible as our Plumbline. Everything must be tested by the Plumbline of God’s Word. We must reject the false notion of Wimber’s “Paradigm Shift” into Mystical/Gnosticism. It matters not what we think, it matters more what God thinks!

    Spirit AND truth is what God requires! A thing is true because God says it is–NOT because I “think it is”!

    What God tells us is what should guide us–not what our “hearts tell us”!

    Truth is a standard NOT a one-size fits all pair of gloves made to keep our lives warm and cosy in the world!

  93. Andrew Jul 21st 2013

    Yes – you are right. For Torben, English is his second language – and he said “19th” century instead of 18th and ’17th’ instead of 16th.

    Nicely spotted.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  94. Andrew you are very right in saying it is not specifically the structure that is the problem, although it is a very real problem….you can live outside the structure and still miss the boat. It always comes down to personal responsibility….we are called to KNOW Jesus, to have a real relationship with Him, and out of that, the real reformation will flow as we OBEY Him. Our current *grace* understanding has left obedience purely optional, which in reality it is not. Only as we seek Him and take responsibility for our lives and walks, and stop pointing the finger at pastors, church structures etc. will we ever get out of the mess we are in. Our discontent with the system can be a smokescreen for a lack of intimacy with Jesus that produces fruit…the doing of the great commission. We have been outside the system for many years and I certainly prefer it to being in the system….it still lacks a great deal unless we begin to truly live like the book of Acts!

  95. DonaldN Jul 21st 2013

    The first reformation began something new, but it did not end the old. It came against the established church, which at that time was the Roman Catholic Church. It began a new way of thinking (at least of the times) in that man could relate to God on a personal level, through faith. The Catholic church did not cease when the “protestants” found their place and were not going away.
    The next reformation will not be different. It will establish a truth and a way of thinking that to many will be new (but actually will reinstate the old truths).
    What we have to accept is that this new reformation will not end the established church and it’s way of thinking any more than Martin Luther ended the catholic church.
    We must simply start new. Throw out all we have been taught by the old school religion and begin to follow Christ according to the Word. And what will be the most difficult for many of us is throwing out what we hold dear, but is nothing more than tradition of man.
    We cannot waste our time trying to prove ourselves right to those who oppose us.
    There was a man running a race. Someone in the stands stood up and yelled at him that he is doing it wrong. The runner went into the stands and argued with the man about the right way of running this race.
    Whether the runner wins the argument or not, he will lose the race.
    Heb 12:1-2
    Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
    2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

  96. David Marsh Jul 21st 2013

    Barry, sorry if I seem to be picking on you but you are making some great comments here on this post:

    Indeed, true reformation IS the revelation of the person of Jesus Christ in the church.

    And if we look seriously at every revival that has taken place in the 20th Century, it came by a few men and women who sought God’s Face on earth the Holy Spirit. When they obtained His favour by their sacrifice HE came to earth and HE worked in the souls of the unsaved churched and the unsaved secular population.
    The key to the revival was God’s HOLY SPIRIT giving REVELATION to men’s souls the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    That is the key to revival. Only God – by His Holy Spirit – can do that work of revival.

    That is why our role in any revival is to do what it takes to call God down from the heavens to begin His work that only He can do.
    And to that end, the N.T. ekklesia model does just that.
    The leaders lead the members in how to become broken and how to sacrifice and how to hear and submit to our Lord Jesus Christ. Through these things our Lord comes down to do His work in the unsaved.

    Many hear are only hearing from me about miracles. Let me be more specific please. that God’s true miracle is what He does in our hearts and minds and character. His real work is there. The miracle of what God does in a person is the greatest miracle of all.
    And when a disciple is taught to follow God’s Spirit properly and he submits to Him, God begins to Father that child in every aspect of his character. That is the first work done by God within a servant. If the servant yields to God’s Fathering, then and only then will God begin to use that servant, sometimes by working miracles.

    The outward miracles are sign posts for the unbeliever, pointing the unbeliever to God.

    God bless you all.

    David Marsh.

  97. DonaldN Jul 21st 2013

    Which of these are you?

    God is sending you to Wal-Mart.

    A group of people are sitting in church. Maybe 20 or 30. God speaks a message to them.
    “I am sending you to Wal-Mart.”

    As soon as the words “I am sending…” are heard 2 or 3 people jump out of their seats and head for the door. One gets out the door before even hearing the rest of the sentence. The others barely hear “to Wal-Mart” as the door slams behind them. They run and jump in their car and head down the road at 80 mph. They are swerving in and out of traffic, driving up on the curb, cutting people off, and running traffic lights. They get to the corner at Wal-Mart and there are 4 cars waiting at the stop sign. They swerve up on the curb to go around them and run over the backpack of the homeless man standing there with a sign “Please Help and God bless you!” They race through the parking lot and come to a screeching halt on the sidewalk right in front of the doors at the Wal-Mart entrance. They then jump out of their car and yell at the people to get out of their way because they are “on a mission from God!” They rush into the store and nervously walk up and down the isles waiting and watching for the next word concerning their assignment from God. As security drags them out of the store where the police are waiting they are quoting all the verses from the Bible concerning being persecuted for doing God’s work.

    Meanwhile, still back at the church, a bunch of folks are still sitting in their seats.
    Some have said in their hearts “that was not God telling us that, He would not tell us to go to Wal-Mart.”
    Others are saying “I don’t shop at Wal-Mart. I only shop at the mall or at Nordstrom’s.” (God didn’t say He is sending you on a shopping trip!)
    Two committees have formed to discuss just exactly who shall go, when and how, how to get there, what to wear, is this a team effort or should an individual go, how much will it cost, is the money coming from the general fund or should they ask for a special offering to cover the expenses, should they take the church bus, what forms do they need to fill out, who is qualified to go, what are the qualifications, etc, etc, etc, etc.
    Another few rush out the door, run home and start sorting all their belongings, putting some in the front yard with a “MOVING SALE” sign. They tell their neighbors and friends God has sent them to Wal-Mart.
    Many are still sitting in their seats wondering, “Was that really God speaking to us?”
    Many have gone out and are sitting in their cars waiting for God to tell them which way to go.

    A few go out, get in their cars and start driving. Some head out of the parking lot one way, some another. They are listening for the still small voice to give them further directions.
    Some head toward the west. God tells them to turn left at the next corner. (Wal-Mart is to the east.) They are sure God told them to go south so they keep going south and do not waiver from their course. They end up on a dead end road in a residential neighborhood.
    Others head in the general direction of Wal-Mart. Along the way they see an espresso stand and stop to get their usual double shot Almond Roca Mocha. Then they see the Parable Christian Bookstore and stop in to see what kind of new bible study aids they have in.
    Others head for Wal-Mart but on the way there they run out of gas and have to walk to a gas station.

    Two of them get in their car and head out. They head toward the east, all the time they are intensely listening to the inner witness/still small voice to give them further direction. The spirit directs them to turn left and go to the freeway (there is road construction on the usual route that would cause a major delay.) They follow the directions and get on the freeway going east. They get to the exit that goes to Wal-Mart. They take the exit (not needing to hear from God on this issue) and head toward Wal-Mart. They turn the corner and ahead of them at the stop sign they see the homeless man going around the area picking up all of his belongings that were scattered by the previous “missionaries”. As they approach the stop sign they hear the spirit tell them to stop and give this man $10 and invite him to church. They obey and also agree to pick the man up from the mission and give him a ride to church the next morning. The man agrees and in the process gives his life to Jesus, turns his life around and becomes a powerful witness to the love of God.
    These two never do make it into Wal-Mart, but they did what God sent them to do and a life was changed.

  98. DonaldN Jul 21st 2013

    Lots of talk about the need for reformation. Who is actually doing what? Action is needed, not just discussions about what is needed. Who is going to lead us into action?

  99. Averyl Jul 21st 2013

    Keith, – May God continue to enable you to serve Him shepherding the flock He has entrusted to you!
    Those harsh comments by others is unjustified in my book.

  100. Averyl Jul 21st 2013

    Anaru, – I hear what you’re saying in your post, the Church can be too inward focused, although there’s an important place for that, – but we also need to be reaching out into the community as God leads, what Torban is trying to do. Why must we nitpick one another so much?

    Looked up your website, great!

  101. Revelation 2
    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    2 “To the angel of the Messianic Community in Ephesus, write: ‘Here is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven gold menorahs: 2 “I know what you have been doing, how hard you have worked, how you have persevered, and how you can’t stand wicked people; so you tested those who call themselves emissaries but aren’t — and you found them to be liars. 3 You are persevering, and you have suffered for my sake without growing weary. 4 But I have this against you: you have lost the love you had at first.
    ………….5 Therefore, remember where you were before you fell, turn from this sin, and do what you used to do before. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your menorah from its place — if you don’t turn from your sin!……………
    6 But you have this in your favor: you hate what the Nicolaitans do — I hate it too. 7 Those who have ears, let them hear what the Spirit is saying to the Messianic communities. To him winning the victory I will give the right to eat from the Tree of Life which is in God’s Gan-‘Eden.”’

  102. A return to the Acts 2 to 5 life style is essential to impact the world in this late hour. This was His formula for church growth.

    Our Christianity must become family home and community centered – Modern Church institutional structures we are all familiar with, are not cutting it and no amount of spiritual hype is about to change that.

    The world needs to see LOVE to see Him. Satan can’t love but he can turn on the ‘supernatural’… That is why a witness of LOVE is critical. God alone does this…

    It is easy to sit in a pew, and it is costly to be Jesus to your immediate neighbors. He did not say it would be easy. The cross wasn’t easy either…

  103. Averyl Jul 22nd 2013


    But I bet a lot of us have no more than a nodding acquaintance with our neighbours! Not good enough!

    It sure is costly to “be Jesus to your immediate neighbours”.

  104. DonaldN said…

    “Lots of talk about the need for reformation. Who is actually doing what? Action is needed, not just discussions about what is needed. Who is going to lead us into action?”

    Good point, I tried to start a “pray for your neighbors’ move on the JBTV forum before it was closed down. About a half a dozen faithful souls committed to do this.

    Action is better than words, always…

    I prefer a plural leadership, who wants to join with me and do this?

    Take ownership of the immediate neighborhood territory you have been given, pray for each one systematically and be open for God to move.

    Expect opportunity to open up for acts of love, friendship and evangelism.

    The move can start right here…

  105. Tina Cruz Jul 22nd 2013

    Yes God is doing this. Only He can. It is a work of His Spirit according to His divine will and love for His church.
    The church His bride is being separated from the current church system. His people are hearing His voice and following Him. It is He who we love and are searching for.
    After years of internal questions and conflict and searching and working to keep my heart pure, not in judgment etc. The Lord one day out of the blue removed me from church. I thought it was just for a service I simply said, “I cannot do this anymore” (I was listening to the gospel being preached and saw people texting, yawning, and realized that we have lost the power of the gospel b/c we have not preached the whole gospel of repentence…anyway) and I got up and went to my car. I prayed and God flooded me with confirmation from His Word and Spirit and gave me His deep pleasure and peace. This peace continued as each week I made the decision to not return. Then one Mother’s day I decided to go and He rebuked me sternly for being willing to return out of obligation and fear of what other’s thought. He then asked me, “how do you know that the conflict that you have had with the church is not Me? You are discerning My conflict, not your own!” WOW!
    Anyway, all I know is that I don’t know what it is too look like but I know that it is Jesus who wants to be the Pastor and Shepherd and we are to wait before Him each and every time we come together. It is out of our intimacy with Him, knowing Him…out of His life in us that we are to serve and love one another. We are to choose to live as Christ lived. The church today is not on that path.
    God is tearing down the old and rebuilding the foundation of many generations. He is our King! He will restore. He is shaking and removing all in us that is not of Him. His kingdom is within each of us and we will live with Him as our head and He will rule and reign through us in love.
    Only He knows what this is too look like and only by His power and Will will it be accomplished.
    Wait on Him, seek Him. Love Him.

  106. Tina Cruz Jul 22nd 2013

    For the dear Pastor who felt hurt by this I am sorry. No one is calling into question those who are serving the sheep with a pure heart. It is not about you failing. You just continue to love God and His people and become like Christ. It is the whole system of the way we do things, see things, and understand things that has to be reformed. God uses those who are ministering His Word and loving. It is time that we hunger for God’s truth and power to be restored. It is time that we are able to read the Word of God and understand it plainly as it is applicable to our daily life and we are being set free, people are learning to walk and live in love and in the example of Christ.

  107. It was many years ago that the Lord very graciously began to enlighten me as to what the next great restoration in His Church was going to be. I was amazed at His patience with me, as I knew that I was not consistently seeking Him as He made it clear that I was to do. But God graciously kept drawing me back to the same focus, proving very clearly what that primary focus in my life was to be.
    That focus was to be seeking Him with all my heart, for the purpose of truly knowing Him – knowing His heart and His ways – so that as I am led by His Spirit I can live in a way that is pleasing to Him.
    The more I read His Word, the more obvious it became, and the more obvious was the need in the Body of Christ to know God in this increasingly personal way.
    There are many key Scriptures that confirm the desire of God’s heart, throughout the OT and the New. One of the clearest is in the words of Jesus in John 17 v3: “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” This is eternal life – in other words this is the essence of eternal life. This is what it is all about.
    Another wonderful verse is in 2 Peter 1 v2-3: “May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us to His own glory and excellence…..” Hallelujah, God’s great power has granted to us everything we need. But the means of acquiring it is what is often overlooked. It is through – by means of – that personal intimate knowledge of God. It seems like such a mystery until you put into practice seeking to know God through His Word and prayer, consistently humbling ourselves before Him – submitting all our own thoughts, and the teachings that we have heard over many years, and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us one step at a time. He is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us into all Truth (John 16 v13)

    My drive is to strongly encourage every Christian to give much more time to seeking to know God. He longs to reveal Himself to the genuine seeking heart. Start with OT. God reveals more of Himself there than in the NT. After all – that was all the NT Church had. The knowledge of God that you will gain from the OT will tweak your understanding of many Scriptures, and you will read the NT from a new perspective – that of truly knowing God.

    God Bless, Colin W

  108. Marilyn Crow Jul 22nd 2013

    `O to know You in the depths of Your love,
    To rise in the Spirit to heaven above,
    And there to behold You forevermore,
    Jesus, my Lord.

    O to see You Lord just as You are,
    To love You, Lord Jesus, with all of my heart,
    To behold Your beauty forevermore,
    Jesus my Lord.`
    by Chris Lambe.

  109. Marilyn Crow Jul 22nd 2013

    That is so true Colin, to know our Lord more & more.

    Just a summary of Christ the Centre of His Word.


    Christ Foreshadowed – Gen – Deut. (Mosaic)
    Christ Foreseen – Joshua – Esther. (History)
    Christ Foreknown – Job – Song of Sol. (Philosophical)
    Christ Foretold – Isaiah – Mal. (Prophets)


    Christ`s Earthly Ministry – Matt. – John.
    Christ in His Body – Acts – Jude.
    Christ`s Heavenly Glorification – Revelation.

    Christ is the basic substance of all that the shadows forecast (Heb. 10: 1)
    Christ is the historic centre of all recorded history. (Acts 10: 43)
    Christ is the prophetic seal of authenticity to all prediction. (Rev. 19: 10)
    Christ is the dynamic power of all authority. (Prov. 8: 15)
    Christ is the intrinsic wealth of all spiritual values. (Col.2: 3)
    Christ is the specific governor of all nations. (Ps. 22: 28)
    Christ is the realistic expression of Deity. (Col. 1: 15)

    These are but a few of the many ruling lines of revealed truth concerning Messiah, yet if these 7 features only were removed from scripture, the Bible would be bereft of both plan & purpose. Yes, it would leave us without incentive or objective. The structure of the Bible would have no defined commencement, no definite centre, & no determined consummation.

    Christ, the Living Word, is indispensable to the entire record.


  110. Well written, Marilyn

  111. watchful Jul 22nd 2013

    Amen, Tina Cruz, Colin and Marilyn………it is all about Him, waiting upon and being in submission to Christ our LORD, our King. When we become smaller in our own eyes He becomes bigger… I just can’t help thinking that He who upholds the universe in His hands is surely able to take care of everything smaller under the sun, when we lay the burden at His feet day by day and carry it ourselves no more!

  112. Tina Cruz; what an amazing revelation you received and thank you for sharing. I’ve been disobeying the Lord every time I try to remotivate myself to go to a service, or try a ‘new’ church. I get down on myself when I end up not going, and put shame and guilt on myself. I was probably being urged by the Lord to just cut the chord, and never had the ability to discern what He’s been trying to tell me.

    What you wrote just made me wonder if I’ve been kicking against God’s will for me, and this is why I’m in spiritual conflict. I always felt I couldn’t represent Jesus if I didn’t attend a church. I’m being slowly shown through this and other sites that it’s a deprogrammation process, and I’m a slow learner.

    This puts me in full responsibility mode to seek God and His Word by myself. I can’t put any blame or make excuses on pastors, ministers, churches, doctrines, anymore. It’s a one-way walk, not looking left or right. I am just now realizing, after reading your testimony, that maybe the Lord has been telling me the same thing, (that my need to return to church is out of a legalistic sense and obligation) , and to separate myself from it completely, and I haven’t been listening. Thank you again! (Although I still believe we can come together with other brethren to share and worship and have communion in remembrance of Him) – however that will happen, I pray we get new revelation how to be church the way He wants.)

  113. Donald N – wow, that is a good teaching. Thank you.

    It’s true that we can’t box God in. He can still redeem souls whichever way He wants…………it can be done in churches, through church methods, or it can be done by those who have spiritual gifts, who discern what God tells them, or can be done by just witnessing while shopping. Every person has a chance to witness and give glory to God, whichever way is provided. Maybe it’s too late to re-format church and try to get everyone involved in a new re-formatting. Maybe we are in the last days, where all of us, whether we are churched or not, can be effective. And I believe God is calling those like Torben to be the first apostolic church and re-format, but, if some never heard about this, they may still bring the unsaved to the Lord through the traditional methods. There’s no time to yea or nay any method, people’s souls are at risk and if we can bring them to the Lord, I’m willing to go any route that is according to the Lord’s wishes.

    Love the screeching car scenario and how true it is!

  114. Lightning Storm Jul 22nd 2013

    AMEN AMEN AMEN….Colin.

    THIS is life……This IS life…..This is LIFE

    That we KNOW HIM.

    Man’s carnal knowledge is desiring to put the cart before the horse and expecting to please His Creator and Savior.

    The carnal church repeating the traditions of previous generations that accomplished very little in the world… we can see today on the front page of Yahoo.

    Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different OUTCOME…..supposedly the definition of insanity.


  115. DonaldN,

    That was a hilarious comment, but so true.

    It reminded me of Ahimaaz son of Zadok in the OT. He came to David and said, there was a big tumult but I did not know what was going on. 🙂


  116. What Bro Torben and yourself have written are absolute truth and truth always make many uneasy. The church to most is based on the clergy and laity structure where leaders act as priest and the people behave passively in a much controlled environment instead of being the royal priesthood spoken by Paul in 1 Peter 2:9. How many gifted individuals are wasted away because they are trapped in a structure that made them passive.
    Yes, I agree a true reformation will come to liberate many into functioning as the royal priesthood as intended and not stuck in a hierarchy of leadership created by man.

  117. David Marsh Jul 22nd 2013

    You make a good point Reggie.
    The agreed structure within a group affects the functioning ability of every member.

    The ekklesia is like joining a group whereby the ‘leading hand’ teaches you the ropes. The ‘leading hand’ is your equal but he knows the ropes and he has learned how to use his internal ear to hear the bosses every command and directive.
    When we hear God’s commands and directives he turns on the power to the power plant, because He knows His workers will produce the goods that He wants.

    The ‘leading hand’ works tirelessly teaching the newby the ropes. The newby gradually learns to use use his internal ear properly and begins to hear the bosses directives for himself. At NO time does the boss want the ‘leading hand’ to begin running the company for himself.
    When every worker can hear and follow the bosses commands for themselves, the Boss gives full power to the power plant. The workers work and a great deal is achieved in the workers very own lives and within the community around them.

    Down the road there is another plant. The ‘leading hand’ has decided that he is going to be the boss. He struts around looking important and the workers are do things according to his agenda. The Boss can plainly see what is going on and NO power is supplied to that plant or group of workers. It is a dull, boring and non productive place called the ‘historical’ plant.

    God wants a N.T. ekklesia. You can receive the full Baptism of the Holy Spirit but if you do not know how to properly hear God’s voice, to discern the difference of that of the devils, then you will at best have an Asuza street experience with a confused mix of the Holy Spirit and demons operating at the same time within the group.
    If you dont have the understanding of how to walk in the Spirit that Smith Wigglesworth took years and years to learn then you will just have a nice experience and be not much use to God.

    The research has been done, the Scriptural answers to all of those lost understandings of the functioning N.T. ekklesia are now available for free.

    God bless you all

    David Marsh.
    [email protected]

  118. David Marsh Jul 22nd 2013

    My research is a first of its kind in well over 1,700 years.
    There is / are:

    17 Scriptural examples of how Jesus heard the Father.

    An exact Scriptural explanation of Faith. ” I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain ” ( Jesus explains 4 times the power of having this Biblical faith ).

    An exact Scriptural explanation of how to:
    LOCATE God’s Spirit voice
    ACCESS God’s Spirit voice
    RECOGNISE God’s Spirit voice
    DISCERN God’s Spirit voice

    The step by step sequence of how Jesus performed His miracles and what was required by the servant and recipient in each case.

    10 Scriptural Faith Principles that God operates by with His servants who ‘walk in the Spirit’ with Him.
    ( Smith Wigglesworth knew all of these )

    The Aims, Structure and Functioning of the New Testament Book of Acts church.

    Plus there is much much more – and it is free in pdf form.

    God bless you all.
    David Marsh.

    Simply email me and I will will be glad to share this 10 year research work with you.

  119. Marilyn Crow Jul 23rd 2013

    Thankyou Keith. And I appreciate your extensive work David.

    I also think Andrew S. & Torben would be pleased with the focus on our Lord which builds & edifies us.

    Now Colin said, `the next great restoration…the focus – to be seeking Him – for the purpose of truly knowing Him – knowing His heart & His ways.`

    Then Watchful said,` it is all about Him….I can`t help thinking that He who upholds the Universe in His hands is surely able to take care of everything smaller under the sun…`

    And Marie mentioned a `deprogrammation process.`

    So not only do we need to think about structure & responsibilities we also need to examine our focus especially when reading God`s Word. For many years people have been directed to look at God`s word as `all about us.` And yes we learn about examples of good/bad behaviour but as the Lord has shown Colin the focus needs to be on our Lord.

    For example Watchful`s great thought of `He who upholds the Universe.` (And we have been looking at this in our network of relationships.) This is brought out in the book of Job yet our immediate thought of Job would be about us & going through suffering.

    Now that is a lesson there but we are not used to looking from God`s perspective & having our hearts enlarged, knowing Him more. It has been more about me & my troubles & difficulties.

    So let`s practice looking at God`s Word as about Him. In Job 38 : 31 – 33 God is talking to Job about His great administrative authority & power not only over the great land & sea creatures but also the planetary system.

    Now the Pleiades (known as the 7 stars) are a magnificent constellation of millions of stars but only 7 are visible to the naked eye. This group are more than 3,000 billion miles away, yet Christ has decreed that they control our planetary system, drawing it on a vast orbit that takes a 1,000 years to complete one circuit.

    What an amazing picture & this is used to help us understand that the magnitude of Christ`s authority is beyond our human reckoning.
    `And in His right hand He held 7 stars.` (Rev. 1: 16)

    This reveals that Christ, not only has the administrative authority over all creation, but that He is supervising the Body of Christ over the centuries & throughout the world.

    `upholding all things by the word of His power.` (Heb. 1: 3)

    It will take a `reprogramming,` but bit by bit as we seek to look at God`s word more about Him & less of us, we will grow stronger in spirit, more trusting of His awesome person & more enlightened on His great purposes.


  120. Barry Schmidt Jul 23rd 2013

    This question has been burning in my heart all afternoon. I sense God is speaking to me in the question.
    “Is Christ divided.”

    When Jesus is yielded to so that His life is released in and through us He is not a divided up man. The whole Man Christ Jesus lives His whole life in and through us.

    Cessationists want to to try to divide Jesus from His power and miracles. They want His character and love but not His power and miracles.

    Charismatics want to try to divide Jesus gifts and power from His holiness and righteousness. They want His power and gifts to flow through them but dont want His holiness, His separation from the world and His righteousness to flow through them.

    Holiness people want to try to divide Jesus from His grace joy and peace. they want Jesus zeal against sin to flow through them but they don’t want His grace, joy, happiness and peace to flow through them. They are not happy unless they are not happy.

    Is Christ divided?
    What if Jesus has decided that none of these people will have any of Him any more UNTIL THEY WANT ALL OF HIM.

    What is God is waiting for someone to surrender to the whole Jesus so that the whole Jesus can flow through His body in this hour?

    Listen to this word my friends:

    Any spiritual power and gifting that does not have Jesus love, holiness, righteousness, joy and peace IS NOT THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE BUT IS A COUNTERFEIT JESUS OF THE WORLD!

    Any zeal for repentance, holiness and righteousness that does not also flow by Jesus grace, joy and peace IS NOT JESUS ZEAL BUT A FLESHLY COUNTERFEIT.

    Reformation will occur when whole Jesus is flowing through the whole body.

  121. That’s a good word Barry, the whole of Christ flowing through the whole of His Body in unity will bring about the salvation that He seeks in the world which He loves… 🙂

  122. Barry , what you say about Christ not being divided is true !

    The fruit of the spirit goes with the gifts of the spirit , for they come from the same spirit who gives both .

    This is why we are told to look to the fruit for the evidence of the true followers who know Him personally .

  123. Andrew JH ,

    The unity you seek at this stage in your walk is not the true unity of Christ .

    Trying to unify people under a common vision , and la belling those who don’t accept that vision , as cancer to the Body of Christ , or as rebellious etc is born from the insecurities of self .

    The truth of Christ will always divide people . We can not buy into the worldly unity that appeals to our flesh that desires acceptance and agreement from man.

    The following words of Jesus give a clear picture of how things play out for His true servants .

    It is only the flesh that cries out about being misunderstood , not accepted , or opposed .

    Mat 10:17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
    Mat 10:18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles.
    Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
    Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
    Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
    Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
    Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
    Mat 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
    Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
    Mat 10:26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
    Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
    Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
    Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
    Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
    Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
    Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    Mat 10:36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
    Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

  124. True reformation takes place when people decide not to compromise , which as Barry says above means embracing all of Christ , not picking up only on what we want to promote our “own ministries ” etc , then expecting everyone to follow along.

    When people have all of Christ , the fruit and the gifts present , they are naturally unified under Christ the head , within His body.

    The divisions Barry speaks of above , are always the agendas that come to lead people into different camps , and so the pattern has played out all through out history.

    That is why true reformation or revival is often short lived , as it doesn’t take long for compromise to creep in , dividing Christ up all over again.

  125. Marilyn Crow Jul 23rd 2013

    In Ephesians 4 the Apostle Paul tells us that we, the Body of Christ are in unity by the Holy Spirit. Also in Corinthians 12: 13 we`re told we are baptised into one Body, & God has set the members in the Body as He desires. We are already in unity in Christ`s Body by the Holy Spirit.

    However what we see & often think of as disunity is actually our mis-understanding of scripture & of truth. And that is the growing & maturing aspect of the Body.

    After each revival / move of God, the truth that the Holy Spirit is bringing to the Body then becomes well known across the Body where before it was hidden.

    Thus it will be as the Lord`s Holy Spirit guides us into all Truth of Christ, His character & His Purposes. Till finally we all attain to the unity of the faith, & of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature MAN.

    Thus we as the Body of Christ are in unity in the Body by the Spirit but are being guided into all truth by the same Spirit to the mature understanding of Christ – the Unity of the Faith.

    One unity is of position in Christ, the other unity is of understanding of Him. And that is the battle ground of truth we are all in.


  126. watchful Jul 23rd 2013

    Amen Marilyn. And I would add there is nothing like a little ol’ rugged cross to carry to help in that “reprogramming”……the word of God needs that cross because we need the experiential aspect of the gospel to know God. To experience His keeping and delivering power, to experience the truth and power of His word in the storms of life. And the more of our flesh is crucified, rent in twain on that cross the more revelation of Him we receive, because flesh is the veil that covers our faces whenever the scripture is read. The smaller I become the more I depend on God and the more powerful and capable He is able to show Himself in real life, that is what I’m finding. And the more I die to circumstances, the less it is about me and the more it is becoming about Him, my life just becoming the backdrop to display His glory because I am more and more getting behind Him instead of running ahead of Him.

    I think if I were to give a little caution, it would just be not to depend on revivals to restore truth and maturity………..because the truth needs the cross, it comes through the cross. When truth is picked up and wielded by uncrucified flesh it becomes another thing altogether. Look what happened to “five-fold ministry”…… the passive congregations have five kings talking at them instead of just the one Pastor, and nobody being built up – with competition vying for positions of Apostles and Prophets and Teachers etc….and even, I have seen, someone coveting the position of protestant “Pope”, I guess that would be the Chief Apostle. How deceitfully wicked, ambitious and self-serving is the flesh and we don’t know it!

    But the cross is the vehicle that transports us through the veil of the kingdom of flesh into the kingdom of the Spirit where truth is a living thing. It almost seems that the only ones who really benefit from a revival (time of refreshing) are those who are carrying a cross, because only they need the refreshing for their weary difficult journey. For the rest it seems like the end result of revival is that they become bound up or further mired in their deception, their flesh is fed and entertained instead of their spirit, from what I seem to have observed anyway. It looks like separation, and bundling of tares……though I believe that mercy and repentance is possible as long as a person draws breath.

    In a nutshell, I don’t seek revival for the church so much as I seek a cross. Because it is a cross that is lacking first and foremost. Without a cross to carry what does anyone need refreshing from….? And for me as well, I will continue to cling to my old rugged cross until all is accomplished…….EVERYTHING that is of Christ, whether revelation, transforming of the mind, resurrection life, humility and other fruits of the spirit, etc, etc, can only come through that cross. I will be so bold as to say we should not even preach revival, we should only preach the cross, and then revival will come.

  127. Lightning Storm Jul 23rd 2013


    There is no FELLOWSHIP/UNITY between the flesh of men and the REGENERATED spirit of men.

    Paul talks of this battle often….not only WITHIN OURSELVES, but Jesus and Paul talks about OUTSIDE OF OURSELVES.

    Just because the Godhead dwells within every born again person…….DOES NOT MAKE THEM SPIRIT FILLED OR SPIRIT LED.

    It is a matter of AUTHORITY AND RULERSHIP.

    There is an enemy of God that dwells WITHIN EVERY PERSON……born again or not.

    So when you have 2 born again people in the same conversation, you can have MANY DIFFERENT OUTCOMES.

    If one person is being RULED/CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit and the other is not, there will be NO UNITY.

    If NEITHER are being RULED/CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit, THERE CAN BE UNITY, as there is in the world….if you find LIKE-MINDED individuals.

    If BOTH are being RULED/CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit, THERE IS ABSOLUTE UNITY. A ONENESS that Jesus speaks about in John 17….His prayer to the Father.

  128. Lightning Storm Jul 23rd 2013

    We preach the cross to those who don’t know Jesus Christ.

    We don’t preach the cross to those who say they know Him.

    Jesus and the cross were the DOOR/ENTRANCE to the Kingdom of God ON THIS PLANET.

    The cross is just the BEGINNING of our journey….not the place where we PUT DOWN ROOTS AND CAMP OUT FOR THE REST OF OUR NATURAL LIVES.

    We are to FOLLOW Jesus….Jesus did not stop walking at the cross.


  129. Lightning Storm Jul 23rd 2013

    Just as there comes a time to COME OUT of Egypt/Babylon.

    Just as there comes a time to COME OUT of the Wilderness.

    Just as there comes a time to COME OUT of the Caves of Darkness and Self-Preservation.

    There comes a time for US TO LIVE THE RESURRECTED LIFE OF JESUS, THIS SIDE of the grave.

  130. When Jesus is exalted He will draw the whole world to Himself… 🙂

    When we focus on Jesus and not on ourselves or on our brothers and sisters in the Lord then we are changed into His Image… 🙂

    Only Jesus can change a heart, all we can do is share as He leads us with no expectation for anyone who hears us to listen or understand – leaving the results to Him… 🙂

    This is our freedom – “to be Him” in the world without having expectations on those who we “are Him to” to understand or receive what we say and when those who don’t understand or receive what we say throw these things back in our faces its OK because our security is in Him not in their opinions of us… 🙂

    This is our freedom to walk before Him having unconditional love to all we come across – then their response is no longer our business – it’s His… 🙂

    Love you all,


  131. AJH,

    🙂 🙂

  132. Andrew JH ,

    If you can now truly walk in a way that reflects the words you have written in your above post , then you have overcome a stumbling block that was before you.

    When you bring forth words under “declares the Lord ” they will always be tested by others in the body .

    When you say above ” when those who don’t understand or receive what we say throw these things back in our faces ” you still come across as believing that you are always right , and that those who don’t agree with you are either lacking understanding or not willing to receive.

    So perhaps , underneath it all you still believe that you are right in all that you say , and that you don’t want what you bring forth tested by the Body.

    If this is the case , then this is the next stumbling block to overcome on the journey with Christ.

    In His love


  133. Averyl Jul 23rd 2013

    Unconditional love, – amen!
    Accepted in the Beloved! Not cancer on the His Body!

  134. Watchful,

    What you shared above about the cross is the key for us all to walk more into the truth and presence of Christ in our lives .

    It can be a trap to get into trying to organize revival , or the Body, to try and bring about revival .

    Amen to ” I will be so bold as to say we should not even preach revival, we should only preach the cross, and then revival will come.”

    ,,for this is the way it all started

    bless you


  135. watchful Jul 23rd 2013

    It is the disciple’s cross I speak of Lightning Storm………the church-at-large seems to have lost this revelation. Filling up what is behind of the sufferings of Christ…… to crucify our flesh, following Christ through the veil, and also there is an intercessory purpose to it for others. I agree with walking in resurrection life, but that it is going from glory to glory, because we can be walking in resurrection life in some areas, while other areas may still need to be dealt with at the cross.

    Someone mentioned focusing on Christ, and I would have to say that this by itself is not enough, because only the cross can put self to death. We are not set free by simply “believing” that self was put to death at calvary, we are set free as we walk calvary’s road ourselves in real life (in whatever form it is given to us), carrying our crosses which crucifies our carnal fallen nature. This is the Way, it is the narrow way. We are like Abraham’s clay pot passing through the pieces of rent flesh, through the veil of flesh. I find it is a very practical thing, and it can take a long time before we start to see some fruit. Myself I don’t think we will ever be free of needing the cross in some aspect until either Christ returns or our bodies die. (Some of the apostles died on literal crosses.) And this is why we set our hearts on pilgrimage in this life………

  136. watchful Jul 23rd 2013

    “,,for this is the way it all started ”

    Amen Kevin! 🙂

  137. Marilyn Crow Jul 23rd 2013

    Good words, Watchful & a wonderful heartfelt exhortation in both your posts. I agree we are not to look or depend on revivals to restore truth as we agree it is the Holy Spirit who is doing that all the time.

    It was so good to read your comments as they bring a good balance to our conversation. I remember an old song, `The way of the cross leads home…`The crucifying daily so the resurrected life of Christ comes forth. `O mighty Christ, come forth in me…`

    And the part you wrote about reading the word through a crucified life is the only way I agree, that true understanding & revelation flows to our spirits.

    I see that revivals / true moves of God`s Spirit are but our recognition of what He has been doing in people`s lives &
    the restoration of a Body truth, & then because of greater numbers it has become evident to many others.

    Now there is revelation we need for our daily lives & then there is the Body Truths, (revelation) that the Holy Spirit is guiding the whole Body into. This revealing is what I was referring to & we know as you said, that only ministries with the crucified life will receive that to then give to the Body.

    So glad you brought out the `crucified life,` for it is not much understood these days, with teachings of `who I am, my this that… my dreams…` Wonder what Stephen would have thought having been to such a meeting then getting stoned the next day? or Paul preaching that & getting beaten near to death?

    No they knew the `crucified life,` & preached it.


  138. Marilyn Crow Jul 24th 2013

    In my first post back further the story about the travellers, I was trying to bring out that thought, Watchful, now I remember. It may have been a bit obtuse though.

    My thought was that the only way forward was `through the low, prickly hedge, leaving behind their backpacks of self-importance …etc` Then to go through `blood was spilt & they learned to pray & consider each other…`

    Good discussion. Marilyn.

  139. David Marsh Jul 24th 2013

    Torben wrote:
    ” If you look back throughout history, you will see that none of the revivals of the past have seriously done anything about the church structure. What we really need is a new and radical reformation.
    The third reformation is not just about small changes here and there. No, it is a reformation that goes so deep that it requires a complete new start.
    I know God wants something new to happen. I also know that this reformation is necessary.”

    Torben has basically pronounced – what God had Smith Wigglesworth say in his 1947 prophecy. That the last days revival will only begin when the Word and the Spirit come together.

    God does not want to pour out His Powerful Holy Spirit onto an unprepared church. He does not want another Asuza Street mixed and confused revival.

    God wants an army of Smith Wigglesworths ready for battle. And to this end He wants the church to Reform itself back to His original church model demonstrated in the Book of Acts.

    When we the ‘church’ members become the Book of Acts church, THEN He will pour out His last days early and latter rains. Because only then, will we know what to do with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit – just like Wigglesworth knew what to do with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    The Word and the Spirit must come together.

    God bless you,

    David Marsh.

  140. I have never said that I am practically perfect Kevin… 🙂

  141. watchful Jul 24th 2013

    Marilyn, I thought the prickly hedge was a very good analogy of the narrow way, the eye of the needle………the cross. Not obtuse at all, and a thought I absolutely agree with. I thought the spilt blood part might have had to do with recent arguments, but wasn’t sure, so thank you for clarifying that….I’m the obtuse one sometimes! 😉

  142. Andrew JH,

    Nor have I said or implied that you say you are practically perfect .

    What I’m referring to is coming from a place where you believe that everything you bring forth from the Lord is right and applicable to all others in the Body , then labeling those who don’t agree with you as a cancer to the Body of Christ , or rebellious , or in some way opposing you or hindering you in fulfilling what you believe the Lord has set before you.

    This is why I posed the following questions to you of the back of some of what you have been blogging and posting recently.

    Morning Andrew
    Some questions for you to ponder.
    Do you believe that any form of opposition has any bearing on the fulfillment of Gods plans ?

    If your answer is no , then why be concerned about what others do or don’t do ?

    If your answer is yes , then why do you say that those who belong to Christ , can not be touched by the opposition ?

  143. In general terms we all need to hold ourselves accountable to how we actually walk when compared what we might ask of others .

    As Watchful said above ;

    ” Someone mentioned focusing on Christ, and I would have to say that this by itself is not enough, because only the cross can put self to death. We are not set free by simply “believing” that self was put to death at calvary, we are set free as we walk calvary’s road ourselves in real life (in whatever form it is given to us), carrying our crosses which crucifies our carnal fallen nature. This is the Way, it is the narrow way. We are like Abraham’s clay pot passing through the pieces of rent flesh, through the veil of flesh. I find it is a very practical thing, and it can take a long time before we start to see some fruit. Myself I don’t think we will ever be free of needing the cross in some aspect until either Christ returns or our bodies die. (Some of the apostles died on literal crosses.) And this is why we set our hearts on pilgrimage in this life………”

    ,,,,this is the truth for no amount of naming and claiming will ever take the place of practically walking in humility , taking up our cross daily , and following after Him.

  144. I think we all can fall into the trap of receiving things from our Lord and immediately setting out to apply it to everyone else but ourselves, when often the reason we where given something was firstly for our own growth in Him .

    As a Body we are all created differently and unique by our Lord.

    The most important thing is to find our own way in Him before we try and lead or teach others.

  145. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    David Marsh- you wrote: “God does not want to pour out His Powerful Holy Spirit onto an unprepared church. He does not want another Asuza Street mixed and confused revival.”

    I have heard this idea many times before so I have decided to challenge it when you mention it my brother.- Not in any way intending to challenge you personally my dear brother as I highly respect your pots in general but rather to challenge the idea in general against my understanding of what the scriptures teacg regarding the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

    So my questions are these:
    1. Where in Scripture does it teach that a people must first “be prepared” before recieving the gift of the Holy Spirit or the fullness of the Spirit or the gifts or power of the Holy Spirit for that matter?
    2. If indeed the Scriptures do somehow teach that one must ‘be prepared” to recieve the fullness of the Spirit (unbeknown to my 50 plus years of careful Bible investgation) then how pretell does one get “prepared”? I assume with some kind of character development, or sanctification increase, or increase in devotion or committment etc etc etc ad infinitum??????

    3.How is THAT BIBLICAL??????

    The truth is that the Bible is very clear, simple and plain that this notion is completely bogus, is a tradition of men and has virtually no foundation in biblical reality or doctrine whatsoever!
    The plain biblical truth is that ANY outpouring of the Holy Spirit- from start to finish is completely by grace alone, has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in the recipient and is accomplished, bought and paid for entirely by the death of Jesus and His grace alone PLUS NOTHING!

    what saith the scriptures?:
    1. Any outpouring of the Spirit is the result of “The Promise” and is always recieved and enjoyed entirely by faith ALONE plus nothing of “being prepared”.
    Gal 3:1-5-
    Gal. 3:13-14-

    2. Any preparation to recieve the outpouring of the Spirit that “might” be required would be entirely of self effort since it is only the outpouring of the Spirit that makes men holy, devout, comitted, prayerful, repentant (or whatever other bogus prequalification conditions the traditions of men have placed on the church).
    This teaching is like saying you need to have a bath before the Spirit can cleanse you and you need to santify yourself before the Spirit can sanctify you-

    All of this doctrine is self effort religion and after the traditions of men.

    3. No man is ever prepared to recieve the Spirit except for this one condition: Belive the gospel of Jesus Christ
    read gal. 3;1-5 again and tell me there is any prepeartion except faith PLUS NOTHING!!!

  146. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    Jesus declared, “There teachings are but the traditions of men.”

    For almost two generations the very popular yet completely bogus notion is that one must go through a series of ‘hoops” or “preparations” and the list is endless and depends entirely on who is behind the teaching.
    The following is list of these bogus prequailifications and hoops to recieving the outpouring of the Spirit (though it is not exhaustive)
    1. fasting – the more you fast the more of the Spirit you will earn.
    2. prayer and more prayer and yes ‘just a little bit more prayer’
    3. hungering and thirsting- the hungrrier and thirstier you can make yourself the more of the Spirit you will earn.
    4. reforming yourself and cleaning up your life- the more you reform yourself and the cleaner you make your life the more power you will recieve from the Spirit
    5. Consecration- the more time and effort you put into consecration yourself and sanctifying yourself the more willing God will be too give you the fullness and power of His Spirit
    5. Waiting – waiting more and “just a little bit more waiting’

    Friends if ANY of these could CAUSE ANYONE to earn or deserve or qualify IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER for the Promise of the Spirit THEN christ died for nothing!!!!

    The Holy Spirit is given to the Jews IN ONE WAY ONLY and to the Gentiles in ONE WAY ONLY
    – faith in Jesus deatgh PLUS NOTHING!!!

    This may be a real shock to some of you but anyone who tld you they recieved the Spirit by ANY OTHER MEANS has a coubnterfiet spirit and does not have the Spirit of our Lord jesus Christ.

    I know this should stir the pot some!
    I know i am sticking my stick into the hornets nest here but let the hornets come!!!

  147. Lightning Storm Jul 24th 2013

    I remember this teaching….Is it still being taught?

    the old “Everything from God is FREE, it costs you nothing”.

    Some of the people I use to know from the 70’s and 80’s who believe that……..are still STUCK where they were….no progression, just going in circles.


    You can go the “easy” way by DENYING SELF and ABSOLUTE SURRENDER…..or you can go the “hard” way……living your life the way you interpret the scripture and the Holy Spirit tears your idols out of your hands; and applies enough pressure from circumstances, situations, and people that will bring you to your knees crying like a baby.

    Either way….its your choice.

    I prefer denying self and absolute surrender.

  148. Marilyn Crow Jul 24th 2013

    Amen Barry.

  149. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    Lightning: re the cross in our past to be left behind or to be camped at. picked up and gloried in every day of our daily life and even on into eternity????

    “if anyone would come after Me he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me” Jesus (presnt tense cross or past?)

    ” But God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which I have beem crucified to the world and the world is crucified to me” Paul (present tense glorying or past?)
    I have discovered that every day I need to be reminded of the cross of Christ- that my flesh was crucified there- if I ever leave the cross even for a day my flesh rises up and bites me in the butt.

    Daily enjoyment of the ressurected life of Jesus in my life is impossible without daily enjoyment of the cross of Jesus in my life.

  150. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    Lightning you said, “and the Holy Spirit tears your idols out of your hands; and applies enough pressure from circumstances, situations, and people that will bring you to your knees crying like a baby.’
    How do you get the Holy Spirit into your life- in order for him “to tear the idols out of your hands.”?????

    The Holy Spirit is NOT FREE. he was purchased at a price! Not with perishable things- nor of religious self effort or zeal, nor as you say ‘with self denial” The price of the Holy Spirit was the “precious blood of Christ- as a lamb without defect”

    If self denial can secure the promise of the Spirit then CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING!!!

  151. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    Self denial is a fruit of the Spirit NOT THE MEANS OF SECURING THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT.

  152. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    The promise of the Spirit being given by faith ALONE PLUS NOTHING is not an idea of the 1970’s my friend. It is a 6000 year old idea my friend.

    Read Galations 3- It was an idea that Abraham fully embraced!

  153. David Marsh Jul 24th 2013

    My dear Barry,
    Are we talking about the deposit of the Holy Spirit within a believer who accepts our Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour:

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

    or are we talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:

    Acts 2:2-4 2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,
    as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    David Marsh.

  154. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    This one issue is what will divide the counterfiet religious spirit from the authentic Spirit of Jesus in the last days: How is the promise of the Spirit secured? By faith alone in Jesus plus nothing or by some other means?

  155. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    David- please tell me you are not saying we recieve the deposit of the Spirit by faith alone plus nothing but the fullness and on going fruit and power of the Spirit by some other means other that faith in Jesus alone plus nothing?

    ” let me ask you one thing? Did you recieve the Spirit by the works of the law or by faith?…. After beginning by faith are you now trying to secure your goal by human effort…. Does God give you His Spirit AND work miracles among you because you keep the law or by believeing what you heard?” gal 3:1-5

    My Bible says we recieve the deposit BY FAIRTH ALONE PLUS NOTHING and we continue to recive the miracles and power 9and every other work of the Spirit) by faith alone plus nothing!!!!

  156. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    It matters not whether you speak in any of the following denominational terms or lingo: of the baptism of the Spirit, of the infilling of the Spirit. of the empowering of the Spirit, of the blessing of the Spirit or of the gifts of the Spirit- NONE OF THESE IS RECIEVED BY ANY OTHER MEANS BUT FAITH ALONE PLUS NOTHING.

  157. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    ” in the last and greatest day of the feast Jesus stood and cried, saying, ‘If any man thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (but this he spoke of the Spirit, which they THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL RECIEVE;” John 7;37-38
    I see ONE CONDITION for both recieving the Spirit and for having “rivers flow from within”- HE THAT BELIEVETH IN ME!

  158. Barry Schmidt Jul 24th 2013

    Unless of course Jesus didnt really mean what He said???
    maybe He really meant to say, “he that deny’s himself- rivers shall flow from within him.”????

  159. David Marsh Jul 24th 2013

    Barry: ” these bogus prequailifications and hoops to recieving the outpouring of the Spirit..”

    My dear Barry

    James 4:8
    Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

    I also pray that you are not spitting on these Scriptural ways ( that you have listed above) of drawing near to God, because it surely sounds like it.

    David Marsh.

  160. Lightning Storm Jul 24th 2013


    the 5 “pre-requisites and hoops” that you listed are NOT about keeping the Law, which is what the scriptures you quoted is referring to.

    ” let me ask you one thing? Did you recieve the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW or by faith?…. After beginning by faith are you now trying to secure your goal by human effort…. Does God give you His Spirit AND work miracles among you because you KEEP THE LAW or by believing what you heard?” gal 3:1-5

  161. Lightning Storm Jul 24th 2013

    Rom 12:1 KJV – I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

    Rom 12:2 KJV – And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    All 5 hoops that you listed, are SACRIFICES that were practiced by the Apostles and taught in their epistles.
    Since the body is the instrument of the soul (2 Cor 5:10) and its members are the instruments of righteousness OR of INIQUITY. Rom 6:13 & 19

  162. David Marsh Jul 24th 2013

    My dear Barry,
    Can we build together an understanding of what you are desiring, which is how does one come into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
    Certainly, God has and does choose individuals unbeknown to them from the beginning to walk in the Power of His Spirit. The 12 apostles were chosen by Christ and directed into this walk with Him.

    Maria Woodworth – Etter is also another example of how God calls His chosen vessel into a powerful Pentecostal ministry. But during the 20th Century there are many examples like John Alexander Dowie,Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake who emptied themselves of the flesh by the methods listed above, and obtained God’s Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    God’s Generals by Roberts Liardon gives a good account of 12 such men and women who were used by God in varying degrees of success and why some were and were not successful in walking with God.

    There is a definite preparation of emptying oneself of the flesh that makes it increasingly more likely that God will respond to our request for the Baptism in the Spirit.

    The principal is simple : Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

    And yes, consecrating ourselves to God ( setting ourselves apart (from the world) to God) is the way to receiving more of God’s presence. And yes, Fasting, Holiness, Prayer, Waiting upon Him in all obedience – following His directives are ALL the ways that we pursue Him.
    Believing upon Him and having Faith in Him are expressed in every one of these things.

    Shall we become unholy? Shall we ignore God? Shall we become a glutton and expect God to draw near because we say we have faith alone? Certainly not.

    We set ourselves apart to Him, and Him only.

    God bless you

    David Marsh.

  163. fabakary Jul 24th 2013

    Someone is saying focusing on Christ is not enough ? This is not Christianity.
    No man can serve two masters. You either focus on Christ or self. When peter focus on Christ he walked on the sea when he try to focus on Christ plus focusing on the wave he began to sink. He couldn’t serve two masters. He either focuses on Christ or the wave, trying to focus on both was impossible for Him. No man can serve two masters. Focus on Christ and you will walk in the water of the negative circumstances of life , try to focus on Christ plus something else and You will sink. It is a fixed spiritual law. No man can serve two masters.

  164. Andrew Jul 24th 2013

    It is foolish strife, misunderstandings and arguments like this that make me want to shut the Comments right down.

    Thanks to all.

    -Andrew Strom