ANDREW: A lot of Christians in our circles today are very wary of the term “New Thing” because it has been so misused in recent years. But as David Wilkerson discusses below, this has always been a very biblical concept. God does want to do a ‘New Thing’. But it has to have the hallmarks of the “original” thing. It has to have God’s true character stamped all over it. And it has to agree with Scripture. This is what is lacking with so many of the ‘New Things’ bandied about today. But the real thing awaits us. I would be interested to hear your comments on this topic, my friends. Below is Wilkerson’s article-

by David Wilkerson

How often have you heard Christians say, “God is doing a new
thing in his church”? The “new thing” they refer to may be called
a revival, an outpouring, a visitation, or a move of God.

Yet very often, this “new thing” dies out very quickly. And once it
has faded, it can´t be found again. In this way, it proves not to be
a move of God at all. In fact, Christian sociologists have tracked
many of these visitations and discovered the average span of life
of such an event is about five years. Personally, I believe God is
doing a new thing in his church today. Yet this great work of the
Spirit can´t be found in just one location. It´s happening worldwide.

God will not begin a new thing in his church until he does away
with the old. This biblical principle, proven throughout centuries of
church history, is found in both Testaments and governs any true
move of God. As Jesus put it, he won´t put new wine into old
wineskins (see Mark 2:22).

The principle of doing away with the old and raising up the new
was first introduced in the Old Testament at Shiloh. During the
time of the Judges, God established a holy work in that city (see
Judges 18:31). Shiloh, where the Lord´s sanctuary stood, was
the center of all religious activity in Israel. The name Shiloh itself
means “that which is the Lord´s.” This speaks of things that
represent God and reveal his nature and character. God spoke to
his people at Shiloh; it was there that Samuel heard God´s voice
and where the Lord revealed his will to him (see 1 Samuel 1).

The Lord stopped speaking at Shiloh because the priest had
become lazy and sensual and the city had become corrupt. God
told Samuel, in essence, “Shiloh has become so defiled, it no
longer represents who I am. This house is no longer mine. I´m
finished with it.” So the Lord lifted his presence from the sanctuary
and wrote “Ichabod” above the door, which means, “The glory of
the Lord has departed.”

The Lord completely did away with the old but once again, he
raised up a new thing. After that, the temple in Jerusalem became
known as “the Lord´s house” and God spoke to his people there.

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things
are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

-Original source- http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/14315

© 2012 World Challenge – a registered trademark of David Wilkerson.

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on November 20th, 2012 at 10:21 am.


293 Replies

  1. Andrew Nov 20th 2012

    Very interested in your comments on this, my friends.


  2. Hey the new thing for today, might just be that the Church turn back to “it’s first love”. I dare say that for many of us it may be something that we have never really truly experienced at all.

    For many others it may have been something that never really got a chance to flourish before the cares of a lukewarm church and the deceitfulness of watered down gospel snuffed it out.

  3. You know Andrew I usually agree with what you post but this time I think you missed it. The “new thing” God was doing is reffering to the new covennant in Jesus lood. It is a powerful messianic prophecy and it should not be tampered with.

  4. Ken Everett Nov 20th 2012

    I’m sorry but I can find no scriptural backing for this statement.
    Rather, I see that there will be a great ‘falling away’ as people become lovers of themselves and haters of God. THIS is patently clear to see all over the world as the quality and quantity of Christianity becomes more diluted\corrupted year by year.
    I am aware that God’s Spirit is still drawing men and women in the furthest-flung reaches of the world – this is in keeping with His Word that the Gospel must reach the ends of the earth before the ‘end’ comes.
    The main problem with all the ‘new things’ is that they do not want to exist in the context of the ‘old things’ – The Word of God, the Spirit of God and ALL His gifts are not seen as integral requirements for any new revival, personal or corporate. The one Spirit gift which is least evident is DISCERNMENT – hence the fiascos like the Todd Bentley saga and the continued downward spiral of the ‘Church’ as seen by the world due to it’s focus on the god of mammon instead the God of Creation.
    Neither do people want to adhere to the principle of sincere repentance as being the most fundamental and necessary first step to reconciliation between man and His Holy God.
    If a thing is of God it will flourish – otherwise it will come to nothing (Acts 5:38-39). I’m afraid this is the true test of every ‘new thing’ – and there are far too few people who have lasted the course to ratify that any of these ‘new things’ has ever been the ‘real thing’.

  5. LIberty Nov 20th 2012

    Yes, sometimes God does change direction on us. When He does bring in a new thing, many want to hold tight to the old thing.
    “Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.”

    However, that being said, When the church of Ephesus had left their first love, they were told by Jesus to repent and go and do “the first works” in order to get back what they had lost. I think that is where the majority of the visible church is today…they need to repent, do their first works again to get back to their first Love (Rev. 2:4-5). They have replaced their first love with too many “other” lovers.

  6. Richard Nov 20th 2012

    Repent! Before God moves on to another who better represents Him. He will turn back to His people, Israel in these last days and do a “New Thing”. We can only hope the adopted branch is not cast off.

    I hve been born again for a long time and easily could be in danger of becoming an old wineskin.

    This article made me repent. I want Him to do a “new Thing in me. Can we be “Born Again” again?
    Paul said “I die daily”.

    I repent. Lord FORGIVE mE. Lord do a “New Thing” in me. Cast away my old ways so that I can be pleasing to you and a place where you desire to dwell.

  7. Brenda Nov 20th 2012

    Got a word from the Lord this morning and it was “Enter into that which springs forth.” I did not know what that meant so I went to his word and this is the scripture I found. “Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.” Isaiah 43:19 Before when Israel was in trouble or needed a new direction God always made a way for them. Just as he made a way for them he will make a way for us too. We are not to be discouraged but to enter into a new direction as he lead us.

  8. Diana Lewis Nov 20th 2012

    This is true…. So so true and it has scriptural backing…Our pastor has taught this over and over…at least 5 times this year….I cant talk much on the perspective of the church but in my personal experience, every time I have forgiven someone [i personally meet the person and reconcile] or let go of some emotional baggage, I have seen the Lord do “new things”…

  9. DonaldN Nov 20th 2012

    So the Lord lifted his presence from the sanctuary
    and wrote “Ichabod” above the door, which means, “The glory of the Lord has departed.”

    This is stated as if scripture, but it is inaccurate. Samuel took over as priest and prophet and continued to serve in Shiloh. God did not move His Presence to Jerusalem until David became king.

    The concept of a “New Thing” that David Wilkerson is referring to is actually not doing a new thing, but rather moving His Presence from one place to another because of the “old” becoming corrupt.

    The “New Things” happening in the Church today do not replace anything old due to being corrupt, but rather are gimmicks to try to attract new people who are looking for the next “sign and wonder” to follow.

  10. For me, this speaks to the old-time revival/reformation, repentance preaching yet coupled with miracles confirming the Word. Finney started at the churches, Azusa street, Wales etc etc etc… that is where the Word states judgement must begin. In my opinion these ‘churches’ will have someone come, and give them a chance/choice, the world or Jesus, no longer will they be permitted to have a foot in both camps. It will end up being a Mt Carmel event. Both sides will be represented and the people will have to choose. Old system, old wine skin indeed. However, for revival to begin it must begin with us, personal revival, repentance over loosing our first love…
    Just my $.02

  11. DonaldN Nov 20th 2012

    As Ken Everett referred to, the least used gift in the Church today is
    There is an “anything goes” attitude and it is just called a “new thing”. Without discernment this leaves the church wide open for the tares to take over and insert their schemes and doctrines into the congregation and deceive many.

  12. I believe God does new things but DonaldN said it well…..we need the gift of discernment!

  13. T. Austin Sparks has a wonderful book entitled “The Recovery of the Testimony of Jesus.” He states that when men say that God is doing a “new” thing, He is really doing an old thing and staying in keeping with the Testimony of Jesus. When the church is in a state of decline, God brings back the church along the lines of His intention with eternal purpose which always had to do with Christ.
    A book well worth reading.

  14. L. Alex Smith Nov 20th 2012

    When God does a “new thing”, it is something that has been prophesied about in the Scripture, however veiled. Jesus gave seven consecutive parables in the Gospels which can be related to the seven churches in Revel. 2-3. There is substantial evidence that the Rev. 2-3 churches represent seven consecutive overlapping periods of church “history” (prophecy from John’s time-frame). Jesus does not rebuke the Church of Philadelphia (which means Love of the Brethren), but promises them: “Because you have kept the word of my patience (or, the testimony of my patient continuing) I will keep you out of the Hour of Trial which is to fall on the whole earth, to test them which dwell upon the earth.” But to the Church of Laodicea, (which means, the Rule of the People) He gives no praise, but only rebuke–however, He doesn’t DISOWN them! He says,”Those who I LOVE, I rebuke and chasten.” These two churches, I believe, are overlapping right now even as I speak. The division between them comes when the Philadelphia saints prove their very name– are willing to die, if need be, for the brethren: “Greater love has no man than this, that a man would lay down his life for his friends.” Many people have derided the catching away as an Escapist idea– yet, Jesus promised these people that He would keep them “out of” EK in Greek” the Hour of Trial, and we read in Revel. 12:5 that the HUIOS ARSEN, the Fully-Matured Son, a Male, was (will be) caught up to God and to His throne. Then, that this term comprises a group, just as the feminine term Bride comprises a group (same ones, I’m convinced– just a different angle on it) Rev. 12:10 says that they overcame the devil, “by the Blood of the Lamb; by the word of their testimony; and they Loved Not Their Lives unto the death– yet if they are caught up, like Enoch was, who pleased God, and Elijah was, who spoke and manifested God’s power and truth– they never die, just that they are totally willing to. Just as Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, and counted by Faith in God, that God’s promise would have to be fulfilled so God must be going to raise Isaac from the dead (Heb. 11) so also a Love for the Brethren that goes deep enough to offer up one’s life… true AGAPE (self-sacrifical love)…
    The “new thing” is in Jeremiah 31:21-22. First signposts and highways (John the Baptist style), then Repentance, “turn again, O virgin of Israel” and then “the LORD has created a new thing in the earth: a Woman shall compass (surround) a Man.” I believe this concurs with the Revel. 12 prophecy, that the Woman (the visible Christian church world, that which is indeed Born Again, for she is “clothed with the Sun”) brings forth a matured man, not a baby. There is within the ranks of the Church, those who are being matured by the Lord in preparation for His short work of Harvest, then THEY, (the Philadelphia-style Christians, same as The Bride, same as the “Man Child [KJV lingo]” ) will be “accounted worthy to escape these things which shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36. If you are totally willing to Die, then you will Live. If you seek to save your life, you will lose it. God is maturing a hidden group of believers into this level of intimacy with Him (Bride metaphor) and matured Agape love for the brethren (Philadel.) and manifesting His power and strength (“man child”). THIS is the “new thing” that the Lord is doing…but it is 1) not revealed yet 2)Found in the Holy Writ, 3)causes a division between those who are seeking the Lord with a pure heart, and those who are not.

  15. L. Alex Smith Nov 20th 2012

    The seven parables I mentioned at the beginning are in Matthew 13:1-52. I was interested that the sixth parable about the pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it, roughly concurs with Rev. 2 Philadelphia, which I believe is a description of the characteristics of the Bride-style saints (the ones in our last days, since there have always been those throughout the ages). Jesus looks on His Bride as a “pearl” (hark to the Song of Solomon “Thou are fair, my love, there is no spot in thee.” (when in actuality she is deeply tanned from working in the sun out in the fields). Jesus “sold all that he had” that is gave up His very life (of course for all who will follow Him, not just the Bride saints). But the seventh parable is of the dragnet gathering in fishes, both good and bad. This, I believe, concurs with Rev. 3 Laodicea, who Jesus says of some “I will spew you out of my mouth” and of others, “Therefore, repent, and buy Gold tried in the fire (pureness of God, tried in the fire, REALLY pure, and/or the fire of the Tribulation). As many as I LOVE, I rebuke and chasten…and I will grant to sit with Me, in my Throne….” a great honour indeed. Good fish amongst the bad. The Bad are not speaking of the unsaved (they never made it into the net at all) but the “saved” that are rejected. See also, the parable of Matt. 25 five wise and foolish virgins, and Matt. 22 wedding feast, man without the grament of Righteousness was IN the feast.

  16. L. Alex Smith Nov 20th 2012

    The idea of “the Woman surrounding a Man” (Jerem. 31:22), “the Woman brings forth a Man child (huios arsen)” (Revel. 12:5) is what was enunciated in a post on Andrew’s site a couple years ago, it was called, “Vision of the Bride Leaving Christendom” by Wayne Thomas, originally he had the vision in 1993.

  17. wineskin Nov 20th 2012

    The enclosed is the message behind a dream/vision I was given in 1989. It reveals a rather harsh and radical ‘new thing’ that’s already in the works whether the inhabitants of Christianity can see it or not….

    OUT OF THE FOG ~A Message to the Christians.

    IT HAS BEEN SHOWN that the total picture of today’s worldwide “Christianity” is very bleak indeed. In it’s entirety, it can be compared to a huge gray wall of aimlessly drifting fog that now stands like a massive new veil between the earnest God seekers and their rightful, Christ-given access to Him.

    Today’s worldwide blanket of Christianity has become much too vast and dissapated to do little but to block and blind and then detour the sincere God seekers into it’s own self-serving conclusions and practices.

    Furthermore, and very importantly, this massive monument to the Christ gets it’s entire existence, substance and support from the millions upon millions of participating “Christians” who, unwittingly or otherwise, have become ensnared, programmed and consumed into the spiritually governing formulas and fortresses that make up this gigantic boxed-in thing called “Christianity”. And as an end result, the sum total of their own makings has ended up far too self-blinded, anemic and lame to add up to any real heavenly or earthly value. And therefore, because of Christianity’s severely sickened and highly infectious condition, a great and wondrous new thing has been issued forth right into the midst of it’s weakened body.

    IT HAS BEEN SHOWN that a certain number of certain “Christians” are being drawn away and separated from the further ills and influences of their Christianity–individually, one by one–onto a new and calming place of spiritual release, rest, and support. And it’s here, upon the safety and sanity of this mysterious God-given provision, that these separated individuals will become spiritually refreshed and blended, and gently ushered towards a highly empowered purpose.

    And as His divine purpose gathers and guides them onward, their renewed strength and direction will soon lead them to the very point of it all. And when their season of growth and clarity reaches His desired state of fullness, these small gatherings of separated individuals will be suddenly be released to go outside and beyond the spiritually confining bounderies of Christianity to do everything that is intended for them to do.

    AND IT HAS BEEN SHOWN that wherever these individuals then go, and whatever they then do, the resounding impact that their accumulated experiences and testimonies will make beyond the walls of Christianity will be so utterly powerful and effective that the entire body of Christianity, itself, will stand stunned and shaken by the enormous waves and repercussions that will be cast back into it’s huge sickened stance.

    And because this wondrous new thing has been issued forth from the mighty sword of Christ, Himself, the deeply troubled body of today’s “Christianity” will find itself penetrated, up heaved and flushed out ever so mightily indeed.

    ~So be it.

  18. I think the present concept of a *new thing* has God’s people constantly looking for the next *new thing* always hoping that *this REALLY is it*….I have watched it over the years. I am very reluctant to endorse anything in this day, esp. something regarded as a *new thing*, unfortunately. When we look at the book of ACTS do we really need anything better or more wonderful? If we could just return to the foundation, we would be doing marvellously well….How to do that remains illusive, sadly.

    I once heard a man preach on the Laodocean church, and that it would be a church where it was a call to the individual, the ones and twos, based on *Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice*…..at this point, His voice is almost like the voice of one crying in the wilderness…will any of us hear and listen?

  19. Richard Savage Nov 20th 2012

    I’ve got ‘new thing’ fatigue!

    It’s worse than Apple computers and software, updates, updates and yet more updates, each one making the previous one obsolete.

    I firmly believe that a) if a thing is of God it will prosper and b) if it is of God, there will be a positive witness in my spirit.

    So, for the most part, I remain fatigued!

  20. goodwordtoday Nov 20th 2012

    What exactly is the old thing that the new thing has replaced if God is doing a new thing in His church? This feels like the memo version of a much longer writing by David Wilkerson. He’s not just talking about being a new creation in Christ. I’d like to know what the new thing was that he was referring to because the only things I’ve seen really change in the modern church – 1970’s on is the music and a loosening up of some of the denominations because hippies grew up.

  21. debonnaire Nov 20th 2012

    what i know is that tomorrow will be a new day.
    i rejoyce already.

  22. Good Word! It seems like “New Thing” has become a buzz word within the church. The dangerous thing is that saying God is doing a new thing seems to qualify whatever the new thing is as acceptable and biblical without any testing or searching.

  23. Sheeja John Nov 20th 2012

    – For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sactified. – Hebrew 10:14
    – If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new. 2 Cor. 5:17

    The above two verses testify to the perfect and complete work of God. There is no need to add to it.
    Once we receive the revelation of who Yeshua Ha Mashiach is, what He has done for us and who we are in Him, we’ll be able to abide in Him and His word; and the gates of hell will not prevail against us. That’s why Yeshua said, ‘And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ – Matthew 16:18
    Then let the rain descend, the flood rise or storm come against us and beat upon us, yet we’ll stand firm.
    And the ‘New Thing’ that YAHWEH did was: washing and cleansing us by the shed blood of Yeshua, and giving us ‘the seed’, Yeshua Ha Mashiach, and His Holy Spirit, to make us His own.

    I am certainly wary of any other ‘new thing’ and the so-called churches.

  24. In 1991, at a small house group meeting, I was asked to share – at that moment, I could only think that I was to speak about my healing. The words that came out of my mouth were completely different to what was in my mind. No-one there recorded the words, the following is the context that I wrote down later:

    “The Lord is doing a ‘new thing’. For so long people have prayed and waited for revival, expecting masses to flock into the churches, but they see nothing happening. God is performing that revival, but not as people expect it. It is a ‘quiet’, but powerful move of the Holy Spirit, a move in the hearts of certain individuals, a personal revival that is bringing many to a very personal relationship with the Lord. Firstly to a place of repentance, than an awareness of a new work, in many cases a ‘coming out’ from the established church system to a place of ‘newness’, to fresh pastures, to a place where people will allow the Holy Spirit, not mankind, to lead and dictate the order of fellowship, to a place where God Himself can and will be present during worship, praise and fellowship.”

    Since then I have learned that this ‘new thing/new work’ is how Lord Jesus truly desires (and has always desired) us to be with Him. In that respect, it isn’t a ‘new thing’.

    I don’t perceive that this has changed – it is only through indivuals having a personal relationship with Lord Jesus – revelation, acceptance, belief, repentance, and regeneration – that one can be born again of the Holy Spirit.

    Where you have many individuals going through this same ‘spiritual regeneration’, in one place, then man may call this ‘revival’.

    Where only one or two individuals are spiritually regenerated (born-again) only God, and maybe a few family members/friends, are aware.

    In His love,

  25. Richard Savage Nov 20th 2012

    Roger, a big amen to that. It really is the only ‘new thing,’ which has witnessed in my spirit for many years. And there’s now so many to testify to that, some of them post on here.

    All else gives me new thing fatigue.

  26. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2012

    I agree with you Roger. It is the personal awakenings in Christ & looking to Him as Lord not to man`s system which tries to organise people.
    Christ is well able to build, uphold, comfort, care, grow us up, fit us together & help us function even as we are being changed. Awesome, amazing, mind boggling. All else is `wood, hay & straw.`

  27. “The thing that hath been,it is that which shall be;and that which is done is that which shall be done:and there is no new thing under the sun.”ecc.1:9.(see also 3:15)The new thing is an old thing which has come around again in God’s circular time.
    ICHABOD is already well in motion AGAIN in the church this time!WE are living it and are,for the most part,in the time when ICHABOD is written over the doors of MOST denominational churches.God has left them over to themselves,as he did to apostate Israel,but He will return for judgment and separation of the remnant from the tares(Matt.13) for a mighty work.”Thine own wickedness shall correct thee and thy backslidings shall reprove thee:know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter,that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God,and that my fear is not in thee..”Jer.2:19 For the most part,the fear of God today is only a commandment of men,learned by rote!!!
    Remember,the philistines took the ark and the glory departed,(ICHABOD)1Sam.4:21,but it was returned to Israel at Bethshemesh and they rejoiced to see it.(1Sam.6:13)and then in vs.19,:”And God smote the men of Bethshemesh because they looked into the ark of the Lord,even He smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men:AND THE PEOPLE LAMENTED BECAUSE THE LORD HAD SMITTEN MANY OF THE PEOPLE WITH A GREAT SLAUGHTER.”They were still in apostasy!
    However, In the midst of their apostasy,God had raised up a great man of God,Samuel the prophet,just as He has raised up Samuels today in the midst of greater apostasy in the church! Israel lamented and turned again to the Lord and away from their idols,under the instruction of Samuel and gathered at Mizpeh(watchtower)and drew water and poured it out before the Lord as a sign of their consecration..”For WE MUST NEEDS DIE,AND ARE AS WATER SPILT ON THE GROUND WHICH CANNOT BE GATHERED UP AGAIN;NEITHER DOES GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON:YET DOTH HE DEVISE MEANS THAT HIS BANISHED BE NOT EXPELLED FROM HIM.”2Sam.14:14 We are to do the same in spirit and turn from our filth and idolatry because the glory will come again and will descend like a cloud into the midst of the gatherings and it will do again as it has done before.Ananias and Sapphira will occur in the midst of the gatherings in great multiplication.See ps.91:7,8.A powerful remnant will arise from the judgment(1Pet.4:17) and walk on without the hindrances of the phonies.(tares)This is the word of the Lord.My wife and I have lived it for 27 years!!!The prophet received the word ICHABOD in 1985 without knowing what it meant!We were sent to many churches with a word of hope and encouragement in high praise and worship at communion to bring in true unity but it was all rejected and spurned in all cases.(Yeshua told us it would be at the outset but we had to go and that it was He they came against first,not we the messengers)One by one specific ICHABOD messages were delivered to each body amidst cursings,physical threats and callings of police with arrest etc.After 18 churches,with no confirmation yet that others were doing this we said no more,Lord,where else is this happening?!He immediately showed us Anton Sawyer,(prophetess from S.Africa),now deceased,sent to the US with the same message in the mid eighties.Praise God for David Wilkerson,the next confirmation with all his writings on the same topic.
    God warned Israel in Jeremiah 7,(look from verse 8) and He warned them to go to Shiloh,vs12,and see what He did for the wickedness of His people.”And now because you have done all these works,saith the Lord And I spake unto you,rising up early and speaking,BUT YE HEARD NOT;AND I CALLED YOU BUT YOU ANSWERED NOT;THEREFORE WILL I DO UNTO THIS HOUSE,WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME,WHEREIN YE TRUST,—AS I HAVE DONE AT SHILOH!”vs 13,14 ICHABOD!ICHABOD!ICHABOD!
    This is a highly significant message in this time as we are so near to what happened at Bethshemesh and it is not to be taken lightly.It is rarely talked about but I can assure you that great judgment is at hand for God’s people so heed the warnings and be on the right side of the visitation of God’s Glory so you can rise up in this last great remnant of the age to completely rout satan and his hoardes.When Israel cleaned up,under Samuel,they completely routed the philistines under Yahweh who was now with them again.Read about it.Let the true fear of the Lord return and let us die so we can bear much good fruit.Let us die forever to self.

  28. jo sappenfield Nov 20th 2012

    Well…His mercies are new every morning. And when I wake–it is to receive them all over again. So in one sense,He is repeating Himself and in other sense He isn’t. I just want to be close to Him—-on His compassionate side no matter what He does…so New thing or Old, let me know Jesus and be known by Him and hear His voice and follow closely! The confidence I have that He is the author and finisher of my faith–is that He is IN ME both to will and to DO of His good pleasure.

  29. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2012

    So true Jo. Wonderful is He.

    The `new thing,` is to do with Israel. As Christians we often read the Bible picking & choosing parts we like & discarding others as not for me. However as we know all scripture is for learning from but it is Christ who is the centre not us. The Lord showed two of His disciples that all scripture was to do with Him, His character & His purposes. (Luke 24: 27)

    The Lord is building His `called out ones,` & we have all been greatly blessed as the Holy Spirit has lead us more & more (as promised – John 16: 13) into the great truths of Christ – Saviour, Baptiser, Healer, Baptiser in the Holy Spirit, Giver of Gifts, ministries (not those of man) . These stages (especially to those of us who are older) we can see clearly throughout our life time.

    And now in the final stage as we come to the `unity of the faith,` (Eph. 4: 13) to a mature man, is to be no longer tossed `to & fro,` by every wind of doctrine. And as we all know & feel there is a hurricane of doctrines out there.

    So thank you Andrew for this opportunity for us all to share, learn, revise, etc. This cannot happen while we are sitting in a pew looking at the head in front of us. We are being awakened by the Holy Spirit to exercise discernment, question, ask, `speak the truth in love,` …. & every joint is & will supply … causing the growth of the Body….in love.

  30. Roger what you are saying is true…I have always felt that before the Lord returns He will have brought us full circle back to the ways of the early church…a living breathing organism, filled with fire and authority…..church done God’s way…..and little by little that God ordained hunger and seeking is building something way below the radar…..But it is not a new thing….it is the renewal of what has been.

  31. I have great respect for David Wilkerson, but I’m not sure I agree. If you look at the story of Shiloh, God never changed at all. Man became corrupted and lazy, so God went somewhere else and found a place where He would be revered … where people would come into agreement with His Purposes. God doesn’t change His Ways and Methods, no matter what the dispensationalists say.

    We have been failed to consider an alternate definition of the word “New”. We think in terms of “God once used apples, now He uses oranges” … like the “New Thing” bears absolutely NO resemblance to the “Old Thing”. Let me ask you something … each month, is a “New Moon” a “different” moon? Of course not … it’s the same moon, just a different rotation.

    “New Wine” …. is still “Wine” …. it’s the same substance, it just hasn’t been sitting in old crusty wineskins.

    God bless

  32. New Jerusalem Nov 20th 2012

    I too do not know what the “new thing” is being spoken of in the article.

    People tend to look BACKWARD to the past and believe that the past was superior to the present and the present is superior to the future.

    Why is that?

    The time of the cross WAS NOT THE PINNACLE of the Kingdom of God!!

    The time of the cross WAS THE DOORWAY….THE ENTRANCE…..THE BEGINNING!!! The Pinnacle of the Kingdom of God is when Jesus Christ hands His Kingdom over to the Father and the Kingdom of Heaven dwells on earth!

    EVERYTHING that God has revealed and brought His children THROUGH has been NEW to us!
    This is why God calls it REVELATION (to REVEAL)

    From Adam in the Garden to the Last Day of God when the NEW earth is revealed and the Kingdom of Heaven is upon the earth…….EVERYTHING FROM GOD HAS BEEN NEW ALL ALONG THROUGHOUT HISTORY!


    The cloud of witnesses in Heaven are AMAZED at the Mysteries that have been revealed to the people on earth EVERY SINGLE GENERATION SINCE ADAM.

    “God will not begin a new thing in his church until he does away
    with the old. This biblical principle, proven throughout centuries of
    church history, is found in both Testaments and governs any true
    move of God. As Jesus put it, he won´t put new wine into old
    wineskins (see Mark 2:22).”


    What is the OLD that He does away with?

    OUR OLD ways of thinking about Him. Our OLD traditions. Our OLD religious ways. Our OLD flesh. Our OLD perceptions, rules, regulations, reputations, concepts, etc etc


  33. Andrew Nov 20th 2012

    I can certainly agree that any “New Thing” is really a restoration of the “original” thing. It has to be. But it will seem ‘new’.

    I also am of the opinion that people come “out” so that they can enter “in”.

    If this does not happen, I believe the thing God ultimately wanted has not yet occurred. The wilderness is no place to “live” permanently. And it is completely unscriptural to do so. Thus we await a “Gathering together” unto Him.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  34. A journalist and a christian Nov 20th 2012

    My writings as a journalist and a christian has been for 40 odd years.
    Prior to accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour, I was involved in revolutionary politcs in my student days. I travelled to Eastern European countries and was a leader of the Anti Vietnam War Movement, even debated with established politicians of the late 1960s. Before and during my student days, I studied parapsychology, the subject matter of psychic phenomena, one time Prince Charles took an interest in.
    I took on christians regarding their faith and at teachers training college went out deliberatley to destroy the college’s christian union.
    It was at college that the Lord broke me because of this. Due to creating bedlam on the campus where apparitions began appearing which were demonic, many of its students were affected including lecturers who resided on campus as well. This was real as the Black Arts was part of my background having studied and practised the subject matter.
    That night when havoc took place on campus, a missionary who was an expert in witchcraft in Africa (having to confront and deal tribal witchdoctors there), was asked to take action over my situation as the evil manifestations surrounding me was out of control. This was even affecting students who were christians and other students on campus.
    With permission, I was taken well away by car from the college campus. The missionary was driving and I was wedge in the middle of the back seat with two christians sitting beside me. We pulled into a layby not far from the city of Liverpool.
    Without warning, the missionary turned round and said to me in loving and a gentle voice that the Lord Jesus Christ loved me and gave His life for me by dying on a cross for my sins and for the sins of the world. The Lord God Almighty was giving me a choice of becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus. or that night, I would literally face death ending my life once and for all here on earth.
    This not only scared the wits out of me but the students who were with me in the car.
    I was considered a tough person in those days having been born and lived as an Eastender. My uncles were dockers and some relatives were involved with the boxing fraternity being themselves boxers and trainers.
    As a grown up, I never wept much. But in the early hours of the morning, the word of knowledge given to me stared me right into my face and I broke down and wept. I asked the Lord for His forgiveness and asked the students in the car for their foregiveness too because of the desire and the want of destroying the christain union. I repented of my sins that morning gave my heart and life to Him who saved from a pending physical death.
    A week later, I left college to start afresh and my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. Since that day I became a spirit filled born again christian, I have never looked back.
    It took some time to be accepted in the Christian Church because of my known previous background.
    The only two things which I have asked the Lord for regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom and discernment.
    When it comes down to the phrase used by many false teachers and prophets operating within the christian church that “God is doing something new,” be aware of another gospel being preached which is accompanied by ungodly signs and wonders such as what has been seen with the Toronto Blessing, the Pensacola phenomenon, and the antics of the Word of Faith Movement and charismatic leaders. When they proclaim and God is doing something new, is it mutton dressed up to be as lamb. When they keep emphasising on the Great Revival coming (led by them), what they really mean is them talking about the Great Deception which they are part of – just look at infamous so called christian tv channels which dominate the airwaves and have the same false preachers and prophets on board – wolves in sheep clothing!
    These folk cannot cope with me or reply to the many quiries made on their doctrines and practices. For what they do and are involved with, it is another spirit and another gospel. These occult practices as seen with the TB experience, and which emerged as “something new” for people to taste and enjoy today, is another ploy to deceive, even the elect. Such practices remind me what I did and used when I was involved within the occult realm. For they cannot pull wool over my eyes, and hopefully they are not deceiving you.
    Praise the Lord that I am a new creature in Christ Jesus, having being renewed and regenerated. Care to share with others with your testimonies of being renewed. For by the power of God Almighty and His Holy Spirit, in becoming a christian, made me into something new.

  35. New Jerusalem Nov 20th 2012


    I agree with you. The “original” that is NEW to us, is the restored IMAGE OF GOD in us…..”being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ” is RESTORING what was lost in the fall of Adam, the expressed Image of God.

  36. New Jerusalem Nov 20th 2012

    How does Father restore the Image of God within us?

    Father uses WHATEVER instrument will work in that individual and in that generation.

    He knows BEST what will produce His Image within us.

    We will see some similarities in groups of people, but there is always going to be some type of work that Father is doing in someone that APPEARS ODD TO OUR NATURAL MAN!


    Otherwise, our NATURAL MAN will call the things of the Holy Spirit “of the devil” or ” of the flesh”.
    Just like the Pharisees did in the NT. They BLASPHEMED the Holy Spirit by calling the manifestations of the Holy Spirit from the Devil.

  37. Marilyn Crow Nov 20th 2012

    I appreciated your testimony of what God has done in your life, -A Journalist & a Christian.


    Could your please explain what you meant by `wilderness.` Thank you.

  38. Thanks for this topic i believe the correct answer is vital!
    Pentecost was the “new thing” every Christian should begin with as their personal experience, as in Acts. 2
    And then: – If anyone is in Christ, (anointed with the Holy Ghost and fire) he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new. 2 Cor. 5:17
    That person has received all things that are required to live a Godly life ” For in him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:” also
    “And of His fullness have all we (the brethren, the born again) received, and grace for grace……..(spiritually speaking, the Spirit filled person has everything?) Ever noticed the young baby discover for the first time in it’s young life, its hands and fingers, enthralled at the discovery, gazing at them and moving them every which way? If the that one could only speak he/she might say in wonder “Hey mom I woke this morning and look I’ve just gotten these new hands!”
    Mom says “you have had them since you grew in my womb, you just did not recognize them ’till today!’
    Are we not like that with the Lord?
    As others have said above the “new thing” is for unregenerate man .to be born again. The only “new things”- except for Acts 2 revival recurring,and in that sense it is only new for the person saved, – Is Jesus return – a new world – and us with a new, incorruptible body, we shall be like “Isos” Him! Not until then will this growing worldly disaster be sorted?
    I believe anything else “new” is dangerous!
    Pr Michael

  39. booter Nov 20th 2012

    Being observant of ‘the Sign of the Times’ and World Events indicative of ‘the Season we’re in’ I’ve always understood that ‘a New Thing’ today. Would possibly be re-visiting the Counsel and Admonitions – in The Book of Revelation…

    While I believe that Pastor Wilkerson is learned & wise in Scripture (no offense is implied here) and I believe that the health (Spiritual & Mental) of each and every one of GOD’s True Followers is rightly tantamount for their respective Christian Walk.

    I would cast my vote to: spreading The Gospel, advancing The Kingdom, and Glorifying GOD. The time for improvement of the Human Psyche has to be prioritized secondary to GOD’s plan for this world and HIS Church.

  40. David Marsh Nov 20th 2012

    Dear one and all,
    I believe David Wilkinson is absolutely correct.
    God is doing a new thing. It began in the early 1990’s and it was called the ‘House Church movement’ – which was prophesied by Wigglesworth 1947 prophecy. That people would leave the ‘historical’ churches and begin planting new ones.
    This process of calling out is God’s new thing to de clagg His flock of religion.
    The next step is to sift from among these, those who are willing to become a part of the last days revival. And Andrew has provided many a wonderful prophecy on this web site showing that this outpouring is soon coming.
    I have to share with you – that I believe my Lord has shown me that this has to do with the calling and preparation of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.
    We are, afterall in the very last of the Last days.

    Have a look at what the Lord has shown me. I believe you will all find it very interesting.

    God Will Soon Speak
    Through the 144,000. by Larry Wilson.

    Warning! Revelation is About to be Fulfilled.
    By Larry W. Wilson. ( 7 Chapters )


    These topics in particular are v.v. interesting:

    The Seven Trumpets
    The Two Witnesses
    The Four Beasts.

    God bless you all

    David Marsh.

  41. Andrew Nov 20th 2012

    To me any “New thing” or ‘New move’ has got to involve the full restoration of the early church. THAT Christianity is the only kind that will do – especially in such dark times.

    We need the “original” back!

    Bless you!


  42. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    If one believes in going back to the past, then go ALL THE WAY back to the ORIGINAL……THE GARDEN BEFORE THE FALL.

    Because that is where Jesus Christ is leading us!

  43. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Actually, the Book of Acts church was a New Testament version of exactly that ‘Eden’ experience.

    Bless you!


  44. Amen. we partake of the Tree of Life.
    Pr Michael

  45. Jesus is not leading us back to “the garden before the fall”. The future through Him is far better.

    The garden always had the potential for sin to arise – a potential that was realised.
    The new creation (new heaven and new earth) will not have that potential.

    Our need is not to look back to how the church was, using them as a pattern to follow – our need is for genuine relationship with God. Genuinely Spirit led lives.

    Seeing the early church as an ideal template will leave us vulnerable to the same mistakes they made – mistakes which ultimately led to the church situation we have today.

  46. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Nonsense, sir.

    That is the only biblical pattern of “normal” Christianity that we have.

    It is the Christianity of Jesus and the apostles.

    Return to it or miss out.

    Bless you!


  47. Andrew,
    DO we return to the early church of 1 Corinthains? Galations? Of Jude?
    Or just to the “early, early church” of a single chapter of Acts? A church that even the “early church” did not emulate?

    No sir, it is not nonsense to suggest we need genuine relationships with God. That we need to be genuninely Spirit led.

    Only THEN will we have any chance of genuine church life – a life of relationship which may lead to some of the things we read about the believers in those early chapters of Acts.

    Trying to return to their practices will achieve nothing. It can’t be done. Their example came through their relationship with the Lord it did not come through following any pattern given to them.

    We can’t put the cart before the horse.

  48. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    I am not talking about following them “mechanically”.

    And it was far more than “one chapter”. Read the book of Acts again. Chapter after chapter after chapter of REAL Christianity.

    I am talking about the anointing, the fulness, the gospel, the power and the pattern of the apostles.

    Ignore it at your peril.

    Bless you!


  49. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    I’m sorry I’m not familiar with the scriptures that point that out. Please share them, if you may.

    Adam and Eve were completely Glorified in the Garden.
    No sin nature….Glorified spirits, Glorified souls, Glorified bodies.

    I only know of Enoch, Melchizedek, and Jesus Christ AFTER His resurrection….receiving Glorified bodies.

  50. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Isn’t that “Manifest Sons of God” teaching, New Jerusalem?

    Is that your position?


  51. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2012

    I agree with you Tim.

    Andrew wouldn`t you agree that the early `called out ones` had divisions, (`I am of….` 1 Cor. 3: 4 1 Cor. 11: 19) & people `lording it over..`(1 Peter 5: 3 2 Cor. 11: 20 3 John 9 & 10) etc

    The Lord tells us that He is building His `called out ones` & as we look to Him He leads on to the Mature man, the completed Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 13)

    We donot have an earthly inheritance. But amazingly seated with Christ in the third heaven with a new body like unto His, a glorified body & partaker of the divine nature.
    Not like Adam`s that could sin. He was made out of the dust of the earth & is earthly. We are made out of Christ`s divine nature & of the heavenly, made for that environment.

    How then should we live now is what I keep encouraging myself in the Lord with.

  52. Tim I agg=ree the future through Him is far better!. The garden is surely a “type” the tree of life was cut off from man. “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”…. “For our God is a consuming fire.”
    We have Moses and the burning bush that did not consume. Elijah and the prohets of Baal.. The Holy Ghost and tongues “like fire” A baptism of fire” will be the last judgement on earth ! Peter 3: 7,6
    It is through the Holy ghost and f ire as John said that we now have legal access to the Tree of Life and the NT garden, a place of continual rest, peace, and victory in
    Jesus, for we are overcomers in His name, joint heirs with Him. How marvelous simple and mind boggling that often the most profound things God has said to us are so simple! Man often misses them because of their very simplicity!
    With respect Tim, I contend that what God laid down to the early church through Jesus ministry and Holy Spirit .is the only template ’til Jesus return!
    The “way back” to the tree of life is though the Holy Ghost and fire. Jeus in John 14 identifies himself as the the Holy Ghost. : “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”
    Pr Michael

  53. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    Tim, as long as we have the ability to choose, there will be potential for sin.

    For even Adam and Eve who had no sin nature before the Fall……They CHOSE to sin.
    Even Jesus Christ, who had no sin nature, had the POTENTIAL TO CHOOSE SIN.
    Even the Angels, who knew no sin and had no sin natures, had the POTENTIAL to CHOOSE SIN.

    You are correct there will never be sin in Heaven on Earth for eternity.

    But why is that true?

    It is because the seed of the LAST ADAM (Jesus Christ) is an OVERCOMING SEED. The Seed that we are implanted with when we are born again, is SUPERIOR seed than the First Adam’s seed because Jesus Christ OVERCAME SIN when He was tempted during His 33 years .
    The OVERCOMING SEED of Jesus Christ in us has already CHOSEN TO overcome sin, the devil, and the world. Has already ACCOMPLISHED overcoming sin, the devil, and the world.

    So the reason there is no sin in Heaven now or when Heaven is on earth……Is because the price has already been paid and the FINAL CHOICE NOT TO SIN HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE BY US WHEN WE RECEIVE JESUS CHRIST.

    That is why it is possible to not actively sin now….because of the Overcoming Seed of Jesus Christ within us.

  54. Pr Michael, you say:“..Jeus in John 14 identifies himself as the the Holy Ghost. : “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you…”

    I struggle to find this confirmed in Scripture, when: John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Father, Son and Holy Spirit abiding in a ‘born-again’ one, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I understand – and, I understand that at the same time, Lord Jesus (Son) sits at the right hand of God in Heaven – this is the omnipresence of Almighty God, who is triune, and spirit.

    This ‘trinity’ (I believe) is confirmed with Jesus own words in John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


    Returning to the ‘new thing’ in Lord Jesus which is the original ‘thing’ of God through Lord Jesus, that we are born-again, and walk in the Holy Spirit.

    ..and noting that others have cautioned against ‘new thing’ which may in fact be a false thing – and I agree with those cautions, and remind all of Jesus words of warnings ( through Himself and through others) concerning false prophets, false christs, false teachers, deception delusion and apostasy etc.,

    I am aware that satan has ‘counterfeited’ much of the things of God – today we have ‘new age’ teachings rife through Christendom, and yet these ‘new age’ teachings are in fact ‘old age’ certainly from Babylon, shortly after the flood, and I would say that it started (deception of man) with the serpents words in Genesis – “..Yea, hath God said,..”

    I say this, God, knowing the end from the beginning, is always many steps ahead of any’thing’ of satan.

    In His love,

  55. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Friends – If you can give me actual Scripture for ignoring and casting away the early church of the apostles, that would help your case.

    It was the church built on the actual APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS after all.

    Please give me the Scriptures showing we should ignore and cast away the church found in the Book of Acts.



  56. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    This comment was for Andrew ….referring to the NT church being a version of the Garden of Eden.

    “I’m sorry I’m not familiar with the scriptures that point that out. Please share them, if you may.”


    There are many “Manifest Sons of God” teachings.
    I myself have not studied any of them. I have read what people say ABOUT them….but I am not interested in what is POPULAR……OR run after by ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE.

    I do not run with the crowds.

    I am referring to what scripture states about RECEIVING OUR GLORIFIED BODIES.

    Is that not scriptural?

    If it is scriptural, no one had a Glorified Body in the NT church except Jesus after His resurrection.
    Therefore, the NT church cannot be a version of THE GARDEN OF EDEN.

    HEAVEN is the version of THE GARDEN OF EDEN.
    Father is restoring His Image in us to return us to His Garden……His FACE TO FACE PRESENCE.

    Because even the Apostles state that they are JUST THE BEGINNING.


    Eph 2:19 KJV – Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Eph 2:20 KJV – And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
    Eph 2:21 KJV – In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    Eph 2:22 KJV – In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

  57. Andrew Nov 21st 2012


    Acts 2:42-47 (NKJV)-
    42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

    46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.”

    There it is. If that is not the ‘Eden’ of the New Testament, I don’t know what is.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  58. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    Thank you Andrew.

  59. Andrew – you ask“…Please give me the Scriptures showing we should ignore and cast away the church found in the Book of Acts…”

    Andrew – For me, the example and teachings of Lord Jesus, and the early apostles, written in scripture – are ALL that I have to go on.

    Every ‘new thing’, every revelation from the Holy Spirit, always points me back to Lord Jesus, and the writings, teachings, example of His disciples, and Apostles.

    Yes, the Holy Spirit is my every day guide, counsellor, comforter, teacher of truth, and much more – however He never points me anywhere except to Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

    In His love,

  60. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012


    That is the way we need to feel about the NT church.

    They are a FOUNDATION. A foundation IS vitally important to the STRUCTURE.

    And Jesus Christ is the CORNERSTONE of that Foundation.


  61. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    We do not even resemble their “foundation” yet.

    So I fail to see how we can build higher without it.

    Bless you!


  62. Barnabas Nov 21st 2012

    The ‘new’ thing is the rejection of any McGospels. Any ‘ fast food’ gospels that fail to make disciples. Living simply and lightly as a unique temple of the Holy Spirit. Each of us reflecting a diversity, but in the unity of the Spirit. Earning the discipline of the farmer, the athlete and the soldier. Sitting together, walking/running together, battling together. Each context reflecting a new creation in Christ Jesus. Genuine sincere fruits that are not franchised.
    A liberty rooted in grace,mercy and love. Each day a new grasp of the depth, width and breadth of His love and a new revelation of the gift of salvation. Growing in new knowledge of Him.

  63. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    Are those who resemble the foundation to stand still until ALL resemble the foundation?

    After all, there were other believers during the time of Acts that did not join in and CONFORM to the Power of the Holy Spirit believers in Acts 2.

    We only have a few names, but think about the numbers alone. In Acts 1 we are told only 120 people were in the upper room.
    Where were the rest of the believers that had been saved prior to this time?

    Did the Apostles mourn over those who did not join them?

    OR did they Trust God and His Plan and continue to MOVE FORWARD…..building upon what Jesus had taught them and revealed to them personally?

  64. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    We do not have a ‘body’ that resembles their “foundation” yet.

    So I fail to see how we can build higher without it.

    Bless you!


  65. Roger, read the whole of John 14 and 16 and the letters of James, Peter and John, it seems obvious to me that when Jesus said i will never leave you or forsake you, he meant what he said, we become one Spirit with Him and the Father .
    God is Spirit, there is one Spirit, one church, etc. when we receive the Holy Spirit we receive His “fulness” LIke the new born natural baby is complete in it’s fleshly body and grows in knowledge and strength, so we, now complete in the Spirit, when we are born again,. have the ability to grow in the knowledge of Him – in love, faith, strengt etc. all the fruits of the Spirit We are made God’s dwelling place on earth, the Temple of the Holy Ghost. – Emanuel “I am closer than hands and feet – even in your heart and in your mouth” Rom 10: 6,7,8
    Pr Michael

  66. Roger – God is not a ‘trinity’, that word is not found in scripture. And He is not ‘One God in three persons’, that statement is not found in scripture either. God is not a person, God is Spirit as written in John 4:24 and God is One, manifested or revealed in three ways, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    I do agree with you about the personal revival in many individuals who have been called out of the world and have been ‘born again’ or more accurately translated, ‘born from above’.

  67. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    More heresy, Tyrone?

    Keep your trinity debates off here, please.

    Thanks so much

    Andrew Strom

  68. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2012


    `But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

    This body of Christ the `called out ones,` are an organism not an organisation that we can measure. The Lord Jesus Christ is building His `called out ones,` not us.

    The foundation as you said is the Lord & the Apostles & Prophets.
    Their revelation of Jesus Christ. This is that

    `God has made Him both Lord & Christ whom you crucified.`

    And the Holy Spirit has been sent to guide us into further truth of Christ, (John 16: 13)

    You are right I believe in that the early church did have the fullness of revelation of our Lord, (Ephesians & Colossians) but as we can see over the centuries this came under attack as Paul said it would. (Acts 20: 29 & 30)

    And there are many grouos of believers who share, encourage & reach out to others. It s not in an organisational structure.

    Where the Lord is leading us is in relation to our attitudes, which we`d all agree on plus into all the truth of Christ, His Character & His Purposes, which the early `called out ones` had.

  69. Pr Michael – thankyou for responding – are we saying the same thing, with different words..?


    Tyrone – hello again 🙂

    I understand that God is Spirit – and I believe that there is one God, who is manifested in Father Son and the Holy Spirit at the same time.

    I may have misunderstood you..? but if you are saying that God manifests Himself as Father or Son or Holy Spirit, but not all three at the same time, then I disagree..

    In His love,

  70. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Marilyn – If we do not have a ‘body’ then we do not have the New Testament.

    When you read Acts, this is very obvious.


  71. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2012


    I did say groups but they are not organized by man. The early church was in small groups also. Even Paul who worked for a living went to individuals & encouraged them to teach others & help them to teach others. I see that it was & is through real relationships in everyday life that we mentor others & be mentored. That to me is an organism growing of itself in love as Eph. 4 tells us. As humans, & I see this in myself to, we want to organize people, whereas its theLord by the Holy Spirit who organizes, builds strengthens. etc which I`m sure you`d agree.

  72. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    So the “5-fold” ministry does nothing, then? It is all just “God”?


  73. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Marilyn – doesn’t that totally contradict the passage in Ephesians 4:11-13 ??

    11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;”

    Seems pretty clear.

    Bless you!


  74. Hi Andrew i am a little confused. Are you sayng that nowhere today can we find any group of saints who are “body” of Christ?
    By foundation i take it you mean a group like the deciples, of one mind, voice, preaching teaching soundly, with no fear, reservations and with signs following?
    Pr Michael

  75. Revelation describes New Jerusalem in all her glory, this verse presents the allegory that Lord Jesus 12 Apostles, are the foundations of that city: Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Peter describes Christians as lively, or living, stones, that build the house: 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    Peter also explains the corner stone is Lord Jesus:
    1Pe 2:6-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

    Elsewhere, Paul speaks of our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    Now I realise that above is the spiritual aspect of foundations, walls and corner stone, and that we still live in physical bodies, albeit indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    Is this spiritual picture, given by God in Scripture, what He is doing, building, in the physical/natural, as well as spiritual…?

    Starting with the Lord Jesus and the Apostles, continuing through the last 2,000 (approx years) with a completion, a finality, after the new Earth and Heavens are created, and when New Jerusalem descends..?

    Please understand I am not discounting scripture pointing to the ministries (1 Cor.12 and Eph.4) of which the Holy Spirit determines who will receive which gifts, administrations, and operations.. surely these are distributed among those who are ‘born-again’, through the years, until Lord Jesus return.

    After all, we who are alive today, and ‘born-again’ spiritually, do not make up the total Body of Christ Jesus – His Body, Ekklesia, includes all those who are His disciples from the time He walked the Earth, including the present, and the future – until He returns.

    So from that aspect, the body of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Ekklesia, is a living organism, isn’t it..? It is growing and maturing – with each member, through the years, being an integral part (living stone) of His Body, which will one day be the complete ‘building’.

    In Him,

  76. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    I say again what I said before – If we do not have a true ‘body’ then we do not have the New Testament.

    When you read Acts, this is very obvious.

    Bless you!


  77. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    – ‘The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former, says the Lord of hosts.’ – Haggai 2:9
    – The first man was of the earth, made of earth; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. – 1 Cor. 15:47
    Those born of God and having been baptised with the Holy Spirit and having the seed ‘Christ’ are far superior than the first Adam in the Garden of Eden before fall.
    Yeshua said, “I will build My Church”. Let Yeshua build His Church, and let us do what we are called to do, ‘to be His witnessess’.

  78. Personally I am at a place where I know that the Lord is close to linking me into a local demonstration of the Church in Acts 2:42-47…

    I’ve been a part of an interdenominational prayer meeting / prayer group for a few months now – which has been as close to a demonstration of the Church in Acts 1:12-14 which I’ve come across…

    But I know that I will be a part of one of these – Church in Acts 2:42-47 – gatherings in the not too distant future…

    Yes, I’m having fellowship with individuals who might be in different places geographically from me but I know that I will experience this “local” demonstration…

    It has to happen…

    This “working together” locally as created by the Holy Spirit where He links us together to complete His purpose is the most powerful demonstration of Christian unity (between brothers and sisters) which there is…

    No matter how united we are in “cyper space” there is a much more powerful demonstration of this unity in “real life” in a local demonstration which the Lord creates…

    I visited a gathering over the weekend and although it was “heading in the right direction” I didn’t feel to become a part of it…

    I really like and feel a unity with the leader (in the sense of his core understanding) of that gathering but didn’t sense to become a part of it…

    The supernatural provision aspect was what I saw lacking in this gathering…

    What God does has His supernatural provision – there is no “drumming it up” (or controlling it) in the flesh…

    When the Holy Spirit is in control there is no human control…

    Yes, in that place the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor & Teacher function under the control of the Holy Spirit for the blessing and releasing of the Saints for the work of service…

    And all happens in unity under the Directorship of the Holy Spirit…

    Flowing together in Him…

    A coming together unto Him (or a gathering together as Andrew mentioned above)…

    In unity…

    This is what I’m waiting for…

    And it is coming…

    Love in the Lord,


  79. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2012


    Yes I totally agree about you on Ephesians 4.( I was brought up in the Apostolic denomination with parents & grandparents who came out from Scotland to bring that revelation in the early part of last century. So we`re preaching to the converted here.)

    I am amused at myself for not mentioning more on those ministries. Obviously I fully agree with you on this & it is wonderful to see that revelation more fully received than it was a century ago.

    I think our difference is how we see the Body as you said.
    For example I could tell you all the people in relation to us & some of their relationships they are ministering to. I could also tell you, as they could also what ministries & giftings each has. We recognise, receive & appreciate amongst us teachers, prophets etc.
    I do recognise the Ministry of Apostleship as my Grandfather & Uncle have both been recognised Apostles & Presidents of the Apostolic denomination here in Australia.

    I appreciate their teachings, & revelation of Christ & His eternal Purposes.

    The difference now is that My husband & I work in relation to other senior Christians, more in a relationship network situation.
    But we could definitely show or gather Christians for various reasons.

  80. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    For those struggling with trinity, please ponder over the following verses….

    – For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has GRANTED the Son to have life in Himself. – John 5:22

    – For the Father judges no one, but has COMMITTED all judgment to the Son , that ALL SHOULD HONOR THE SON, just as they honor the Father. HE WHO DOES NOT HONOR THE SON DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER WHO SENT HIM. – John 5:22-23

    – I CAN OF MYSELF DO NOTHING. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek not My own will, but the will of the Father who sent Me. – John 5:30

    – However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into all truth; for HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, but whatever He hears He will speak; and HE WILL TELL YOU THINGS TO COME. – John16:13

    – Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. – Matthew 12:32

  81. Barry Schmidt Nov 21st 2012

    Hi Friends!
    Here is a new thing God is doing:
    lam. 3:23 “It is because of the Lords great love that we are not consumed. His compassions never fail. They are NEW EVERY MORNING”
    By providence I found myself in a Jewish Bagel bakery called “Sully’s Kosher Bakery” it felt like I was in a time warp in that place. They served the same recipes and wore the same clothes since ancient times.
    As I pondered this I heard what I thought was the audible voice of aged speak from behind me this word:
    “The prophets of this generation are saying,’It must must out with the old and in with the new.’ But I am saying to this generation, “You must return to the ancient. You must return to the ancient cross. You must return to the ancient Book. You must return to the ancient gospel of grace.”

  82. Barry Schmidt Nov 21st 2012

    Sorry for type error above: “audible voice of aged behind me” should have read “audible voice of God behind me”

  83. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    Yeshua said:” I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” – Matthew 16:18
    But that does not seem to be the case with the seven churches addressed in Revelation 2 & 3. Then what does the seven churches of Revelation 2 & 3 seem to represent?
    The Church that Christ is building consists of / includes all these ‘Seven Churches’, yet is distict from them all. Any comment?

  84. No more man declared “revivals!” That is doing the same o same o and expecting different results. The churches of our land need a “REVOLUTION.” We need to pray for The Kingdom to come in us, and then for boldness to go out and about and preach The Kingdom. That is what Jesus said to preach……The gospel of The Kingdom. There is a great need to quit sucking on our milk bottle and to start eating solid food. There is a great need for the meat of The Word. Once people “get saved,” they need to be discipled. They need to study, and do what they learn. There are MANY lost souls in church. They need to be born again and filled with The Spirit, and then go out and find those who are lost and help them. Tell them the good news. NOT shout at moving cars or those stopped at traffic lights. This is irritating to many, and is not productive. The harvest is ready and the darkness is closing in. RELIGION needs to DIE, so Jesus can live in His own. It is time for pastors to get rid of the “thrones” up on the platform and be free to say whatever God wants them to say, whether it is popular or not. Many may leave, but many who are for real will come and fill the house. I know. I am watching this happen now in my house of worship. It is a beauty and wonder to behold. God is always faithful. We need to be.

  85. Marilyn Crow Nov 21st 2012

    Sheeja John, I hope this helps.

    The 7 Churches, `called out` groups are 7 stages throughout church history
    1. Ephesus – Division
    2. Symrna – Persecution
    3. Pergamos – False Doctrines
    4. Thyatira – Idolatry & Witchcraft
    5. Sardis – denominations
    6. Philadelphia – Brotherly Love
    7. Laodicea – Man`s rule

    Christ presented some aspect of Himself that the group needed to overcome error. Some people did obey God`s Spirit others didn`t.
    But Christ was still over each group, revealing Himself to them.
    Those people made disciples & passed on their testimony & understanding of Christ, His character & purpose down through the centuries. Many as we know were martyred for their faith in the Lord. And today we still see all those errors as it is a battle we are in, a battle to believe the truth of Christ & His purposes.

    The Philadelphia group of `called out ones,` we would desire to be a part of, are not partial or sectarian but desire the Body of Christ to come to maturity in Him.

    They were – are, given the `key of David.` The key of David unlocked Israel`s national treasures, but Christ unlocks His treasures, the true riches of wisdom & knowledge of Himself. An `open door,` means access to the true wisdom & knowledge of Christ. (Col. 2:3)

    `Christ….in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom & knowledge.`

    How blessed we are if we humbly seek, that Christ would reveal
    what we need at this hour to overcome all the false doctrines, plus as we come to understand His Character & Purposes more we as the Body grow to maturity, completetion in Him.

  86. Is God doing a new thing? Of course, he is always doing new things. The whole of church history is a repetition of what happened at Shiloh. The people forsaking God until he is just a talisman when they are in trouble (like taking the ark into battle) and God departing from them but they are so blind that they do not realize that he has left. Then God goes somewhere else and starts something new.

    Do I think that God is starting something new just now? Yes. Why? I know it in my spirit. All this fall I’ve known that a change is just around the corner and I need to be ready.

    Just around the corner, however, is a very relative term with God. All I know is that when he calls, I need to start moving because I have just enough time to get ready and he knows how long it will take – whether moments or months or years.

    The biggest mistake is to focus on “What is this new thing going to look like?” We get all distracted and head in the wrong direction. The new, as Andrew said at the beginning, is really the old but so ancient and so long forgotten that we cannot understand it. It needs to be revealed to us anew.

    My own experience has been that he opens my eyes to see how short I am falling in my walk with him and calls me to seek him. As I start walking in the greater light, he acts.

  87. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    Great insight, Karen!

    Bless you,


  88. Barnabas Nov 21st 2012

    Restoration of the ancient paths and walls in light of the tabernacling with Christ. A true relationship with Father (authority), Son(Truth) and Spirit.
    Is 58:12
    And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places:

    thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations;

    and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach,

    The restorer of paths to dwell in.

    Scholars of the Torah that Jesus delivered.

  89. Concerned christian Nov 21st 2012

    Andrew mentioned this – “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;”
    I have just watched a number of programmes on christian tv stations and seen Bishop this, Apostle that, and people who call themselves Prophets. In looking at their churches and organisations they represent, they only emulate themselves by building movements and empires – not that God is their rock of salvation and He is building His Church. They are building man made religion based on not bibilcal teaching and structures but building their own foundations and structures on doctrines which have no bearing with scripture but are selected similar to that of sects and cults who claim to be christian.
    Should not those in leadership in the Body of Christ warn about the consequences of building mega structures, which so many so called churches are doing, and their infrastructures have been built by men and not by God Almighty.
    This is becoming apparent on christian tv causing not only confusion in the christian church but altering doctrine to suit themselves resulting in division of those calling themselves christians. Even the Mormons and JWs call themselves christians amongst the confusion which Satan enjoys being a former angel of light.
    What do you say and others who are making comments on this web site?

  90. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    I agree, sadly.
    The leadership today seems to bear little relation to the true servants of Christ in Bible days. Many seem to be servants of Mammon.

    We need a clean-out – and for God’s true servants to arise!

    Bless you,


  91. Brother Paul Nov 21st 2012

    Would it be considered a ‘New Thing’ if the body of Christ was to confess its sins, repent of those sins then and go back to its first love?

  92. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    Roger stated: After all, we who are alive today, and ‘born-again’ spiritually, do not make up the total Body of Christ Jesus – His Body, Ekklesia, includes all those who are His disciples from the time He walked the Earth, including the present, and the future – until He returns.
    So from that aspect, the body of our Lord Jesus Christ, His Ekklesia, is a living organism, isn’t it..? It is growing and maturing – with each member, through the years, being an integral part (living stone) of His Body, which will one day be the complete ‘building’.

    What you stated is true. And to use Andrew Strom’s words, We are ‘called out’ from among them, that we ‘get in’ into His ark.
    Marilyn Crow, Thanks. You’re right. But, these seven churches not only represent the 7 stages of Church down through the history; they also represent the seven types of churches that existed at any given point of time, beginning with the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, untill now.
    But my point is that Yeshua is picking and choosing the ‘Living Stones’ of His Church from among these churches. The Church that Yeshua is building is different from all these seven churches. And it is that ‘Church’ against which the gates of hell does not prevail.

  93. Teshuva Nov 21st 2012

    Sheeja John,
    Love your question as it was one that I was pondering in my heart a few days ago, at least the gates of hell will not prevail part.
    The gates of hell will NOT prevail against the Glory.
    The churches in Rev. to me are what I consider stages of growth, and I can not help but believe we have been in them all at some point or the other, even if we have never changed churches.
    For me the New testament church would be this Glory.
    I have received some words over the last couple of years that have convinced me of this.
    One thing He said to me is that people kill His people and think they are doing Him a favor. Then I was told to kill not in Word or deed not even to eat. Then He told me that it will show on their faces and their countenance would change not. As I pondered this in my heart, I got a picture of Stephen whose face shown with light or glory as he was full of the Holy Spirit. I thought on Moses face that shined with His glory, but was a fading glory. I thought on the brilliance of Yeshua as when His clothes became white etc. I thought on the fact that even when He was walking with his disciples after His resurrection “They Did Not Recognize Him”. So I cannot help but believe that the New Thing the Lord is going to do is the one where the Knowledge of the Glory of God will fill the earth/us.
    This to me is the New Testament church. One where someone will see the evidence of the manifest presence of God, and will be drawn to Know God.

  94. watchful Nov 21st 2012

    Wasn’t the New Testament church just the down payment guaranteeing WHAT IS TO COME..? Like the early rain..?

    Without a vision the people perish, vision and faith go hand in hand, like Jesus who only DID (ie, exercised his faith) what He SAW the Father doing. I wonder if the Israelites failed to enter the Promised Land at first because of unbelief because of not having a vision of what was about to come, of what the Father was doing, hence they perished in the wilderness. Like Lot’s wife they kept longing for what had already been when they should have been looking forward (upward) to what was to come, and so she and they turned into a denomination..? One factor anyway, pretty sure there are others.

  95. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    Teshua wrote, ‘So I cannot help but believe that the New Thing the Lord is going to do is the one where the Knowledge of the Glory of God will fill the earth/us.’

    The KNOWLEDGE of the the glory of God will fill the earth when Yeshua reigns with His saints a thousand years. But for now, till the seven bowl judgments, we find it being written that the people blasphemed God and did not repent of their deeds.

    Ponder over the verse,
    “He had blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and understand with their heart, lest they should turn, so that I should heal them.” – John 12:40

    And as to the seven churches of Revelation 2 & 3, it represents the type of people present on earth (those who heard the gospel and believed, and among them, some who continued in the Word and some who fell) at any given point of time from the Day of Pentecost uptill now.

  96. Teshuva Nov 21st 2012

    He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts ….
    But in Rev. He says get some eye salve– What better eye salve than the anointing that breaks the yoke of bondage. Even writing this I think on the man that was blind and when Yeshua spit in the earth and applied the mud to his eyes, he seen men as trees– trees?? Trees of righteousness maybe??
    Then there is scripture that God could make the Stones/hardened ones be raised up to children of Abraham.
    The Glory blinds.
    I just cannot help but believe that to look at His word on the surface, we look at the material aspect, the outer court, and as we go deeper into it, we are doing works for the inner court, and then perhaps we move into the Holy of Holies, in Yeshua to where nothing matters but the love of God, as He is we also are, with eyes that are flaming with the love of God, and just rest in Him.

  97. Sheeja John Nov 21st 2012

    I will declare what I need to declare. What you receive or want to receive, is yours to decide.

  98. Teshuva Nov 21st 2012

    My hope rests in His substance, and if I have perceived wrong of that which He has given me, then may He correct me, until then I can only declare His greatness.

  99. Barry Schmidt Nov 21st 2012

    Re: the seven churches of Revelation being more than the historical 7 churches of Asia minor. The allegorical and hyper spiritualized interpretation of the text is always subjective at best and at worst it is a distortion.
    The Scriptures cannot be alegorized unless the writer specifically states yet are an allegory . The Scriptures MUST always be interpreted in their original historical, geographical and cultural context. God always meant what He said. If He didn’t mean what He said He wouuld have said what He meant!

    Don’t truncate the simple language of the Bible by alegorizing where the author never intended us to.

    The seven churches of Asia Minor ARE THE JUST THAT ! The seven churches of Asia Minor.
    This allegorization of the seven churches started with the latter rain heretical teachings of William Branham.

  100. Barry Schmidt Nov 21st 2012

    This allegorizing started by Will Branham has been popularized by White Dove Ministries and Paul Kieth Davis who is an avowed Branhamite.
    They espouse the Scriptures plain and simple meanings are INSUFFICIENT and that “deeper hidden meanings are intended by the text are not stated but hidden an revealed only to the initiated few” This is an exact quote of Paul Kieth Davis.

    Friends this is blatant occultism : look up the word occult in the dictionary :
    “Occult: that which is kept hidden and obscure and is only revealed to the initiated”

    Friends God isn’t a promoter of occult use if the Bible in its interpretations.
    Stick with what the Bible PLAINLY SAYS and you will never miss Gods will or ways.

  101. Teshuva Nov 21st 2012

    Thank you Barry Schmidt for your words of encouragement.
    I stated above that I heard these words-it will show on their faces and their countenance will change not. If the face is not a reflection of what is in the heart good or bad, right or wrong, then I have misunderstood what was spoken to me.

    2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    I do not know William Branham nor of his teachings.
    I just read the word of God out loud, with hopes that Gods own words prophesy over me, because faith comes by the hearing, and hearing by the word of God for He watches over His words to perform them and they do not return to Him void.
    Though above, I am guilty of allegorizing the seven churches of Asia Minor, and though they were in Asia minor. Is not the word of God alive and for us today?

  102. I think many deceived Christians confuse “new thing” with a New Age thing, and thats the problem. God will certainly be doing a new thing globally in the end times though, as the 2 lampstands are raised up in power to testify (I belive these are 2 parts of the body of Christ not individuals, ie the African and Chinese Christians/churches, due to the outpouring of anointing that will come upon them in a few years time. In the western world tho? Well lets face it that doesnt look good, after almost 2000yrs of the gospel where have we taken it??? The remnant here will experience a new thing tho as the kingdom of God becomes more real and churchianity less important.

  103. L. Alex Smith Nov 21st 2012

    Barry Scmidt: Whether or not Willaim Branham was “heretical” is beside the point. And that is just an Argumentum Ad Hominem remark, anyway. The entire book of Revelation was said to be “prophecy” by John, in both Rev. 1:3, and Rev. 22: 7, 18, 19. Plus John said in Rev. 1:1 “God will show to His servants things that must shortly come to pass” (shortly being interpreted by eternal standards, such as Psalm 90:4) and in 1:10 when he said, “I was in the spirit on the Day of the Lord”– the future 7-year period of God’s Wrath, persecution of the church, and cataclysmic plagues on the world. As far the idea that Rev. 2-3 churches fitting into distinct times, Ephesus, means “Delights” which is what the 1st century church was, but they lost their first love, and consequently Jesus removed their Menorah, the Light and Revelation….history concurs, Paul says in Acts 20:29 2After my departing, grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not spraing the flock”. The second century Smyrna, meaning the Myrrh of embalming, was full of doctrinal floundering, but Jesus typified that church era not by its error, but its persecution that it endured “be faithful unot Me ten days” there were ten consecutive Roman Emperors who persecuted the church until Constantine in 313 A.D. The rebuke came to Pergamos “much married” when emperor Constantiine had CODIFIED into Roman Law those errors, and made Christianity the State Religion. Thyatira “the daughter of Tyre” was rebuked for allowing Jezebel the false prophetess (woman typifying a religious system, this one would be the midnight hour of the Papacy) from the time of the first actual pope (519 A.D. Gregory?) to the beginning of the Reformation in 1517. Sardis “escaped few” had a name that they were alive, yet dead…. the reformation did save some, but great wars and killing fought here over it. Then Philadelphia “love of the brethren” I believe the time key would be Azusa St. revival 1901 and Laodicea will be separated from the concurrent Phil. style saints by their hearts before God– Laodicea continues through the tribulation, Philadelphia ends at “I will keep you “ek”–out of– the Hour of Trial. Of course the seven churches also refer to the state of Christians at all times, but the main thrust of John’s words is prophecy– for us most of it now is history. Hindsight is easier than foresight. And yes, in prophecy there is much Imagery that is to be interpreted by Scripure and the typology found throughout Scripture. One must make the distinction between what is literal and what is figurative. If something is figuratiive, then OF WHAT is it figurative? There are serious lessons to be learnt in the Holy Writ. It’s not a car mechanic’s manual.

  104. watchful Nov 21st 2012

    Barnabas, thanks for that about the ancient paths, one of my favourite passages actually and the way of the cross is embedded in it, as I see it. I have been appreciating your contributions here, the sound of your voice, along with others. All I can say is Oh Lord please help us to get there!

    Barry, Jesus spoke to them in parables and without a parable He did not speak – this truth that He taught me not long ago has helped to open my eyes to much of the treasure hidden in darkness that I would have missed otherwise. (still a long way to go, not meaning to imply that I have it all yet by a long shot!)

    Amen, Teshuva, very well said. I understand what you are saying about it being reflected on our faces. And I am going to start reading His word out loud now too, I had forgotten that we need to HEAR it and that it was actually meant to be read out loud and heard, long before printing presses!

  105. KalebSpirit Nov 21st 2012

    “New thing” sounds like more hype, hype, hype. Any one else tired of hype? Of course God will do a new thing and blow our carnal minds, but the phrase has become associated with hype.

    The reality of it is he has no one to use but us to do his work but his body. The problem is that many seek their own interests and not those of Christ Jesus. We need to truly see him as the pearl of great price. Time to forsake all, press into him learn his voice, sit as his feet and learn his ways, and allow him to work in our character. Even as Jesus said to his disciples prior to the book of Acts, wait here in Jerusalem until we you are endowed from power from on high. In the book of Acts the Holy Spirit was in charge.

    Jesus had the Spirit without measure. That is available to every believer today as God is no respecter of person. Jesus has gone to the Father and promises that even greater works than he has done shall we be able to do because he sends us the Holy Spirit. I say we quit waiting for God to send us someone else to do the job and become the people God can do the job through.

  106. KalebSpirit Nov 21st 2012

    Please forgive the sloppy typo and sentence above. It should be “endued” – and he has no one to use but us as his body.

  107. Teshuva, you’ve opened into “the deep called the deep”. I’m so joyful for that. and blessed. When I said I could know a Christian within a few minutes after entering a room, it is true. It’s not me, it’s the Holy Spirit who guides me. The light radiating (love of Christ) from the person….(paraphased) That’s one way we will know our like kinds. Maybe it’s discerning of spirits, I don’t know. But we can also see the devil’s guidence, as well.

    Yes I believe Christ is forever New, every single day. I love D.W., and always will. He was just sharing. All of these posts are very instructive and informative. Watchful, each of us is only a part, you are so right: I was so blessed by that post, in Wolf 2. Thank you.. Amen

  108. booter Nov 21st 2012

    Since the subject of Leadership within The Church has been breached now ‘as it applies to the stated positions for Believers’. Throughout History these leaders were for the most part ‘self-proclaimed’, then once in their position of authority & leadership, they would invariably call each other out ‘in support & affirmation’ thereby lending credence & legitimacy to their claims.

    Unfortunately, The Church never took an accounting of these individuals, or checked them out by The Light of Scripture. Now the current crop of false prophets is reaping the benefits of years of irresponsibility and riding the wave with their own brand of ‘New Things’.

  109. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    watchful says the following:

    “Wasn’t the New Testament church just the down payment guaranteeing WHAT IS TO COME..? ”

    New Jerusalem comment:

    YES! AMEN!! The NT church was just the BEGINNING!
    We received the “earnest” of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, but the True Church was to MOVE FORWARD AND RECEIVE THE FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT…….called “THE GLORY OF GOD”

    The 40 days that Jesus Christ walked this earth AFTER HIS RESURRECTION was a TYPE of what the followers of Jesus Christ were to be.

    That was evident in the Apostles beginning at Pentecost and it was most certainly VISIBLY EVIDENT in John and Peter.

    John was so filled with the Glory of God that he experienced a time of “in his body” or maybe “out of his body” for the Revelation that was given him.

    Peter, the one who denied Christ, was filled with the Glory of God to the extent that his SHADOW cast onto someone would heal the sick.


    Act 8:39 KJV – And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
    Act 8:40 KJV – But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

    WHAT HAPPENED to the Glory of God in the church?

    PERSECUTION happened to the early church and the Glory of God was SUPPRESSED by the SIN OF FEAR.

    Every generation after the Apostles there has been a FEW who have been filled with the Glory of God.


    Rev 21:8 KJV – But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    2Cr 3:18 KJV – But we ALL, with open face beholding as in a glass the Glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

  110. My oh MY, New Jerusalem, it can’t be said better than that! Thank you, and Amen.

  111. Teshuva Nov 21st 2012

    That is beautiful New Jerusalem!! Glory to God!!! praisaluyah!!

    Joan W.
    I am with you on that!!! It can not be said better than that!!

  112. Andrew Nov 21st 2012

    And I say-

    Establish the Apostolic foundations first, like the apostles did in the Jerusalem church – and then such GLORY becomes a possibility.

    Without this foundation, it simply is a pipe dream.

    This is very clear from the NT.

    Bless you!


  113. Barnabas Nov 21st 2012

    Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear,
    And Grace my fears relieved.

    Not one for the top-up gospel.
    Performance related religion.

    First, let’s be a royal priesthood in our own temples.
    Second, assist each other in establishing holy boundaries.
    Thirdly, Maintain the unity of the Holy Spirit.
    Made to measure to His standards, clothed in His righteousness.

  114. DonaldN Nov 21st 2012

    Andrew, I agree. The foundation must be laid first before the rest can be built upon it.

    Hebrews 6:1-3
    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    3 And this we will do, if God permits.

    God will not permit the building without a solid and accurate foundation in place first.

  115. I would like to say that unless we are willing to work together with our brothers and sisters in whatever proximity the Lord purposes – no matter how close that may be – that we will never experience the blessing of unity which He promises…

    Those who have been given revelation of the Lord’s Grace, of His Sovereignty, of His Purposes – those who have been given a revelation of His Truth – those who have known the Truth and been set free by the Truth – these are the ones who should lead and release others…

    An Apostle is one who has been sent by God to complete a specific purpose…

    As such they know exactly what that purpose is and are very passionate and focused to achieve it…

    A Prophet is one who has been told truths by the Lord which they are to tell to others…

    Whether these truths are speaking of the corruption in the lives of their hearers – their knowledge goes beyond the natural…

    Or whether these truths are speaking of what the Lord will achieve in the future or whether these truths are speaking of what the Lord intends to do if action is not taken by the hearers…

    The Prophet will speak things which are not possible to be known except by revelation…

    Yes, false prophets or soothsayers or diviners can also know things about people through evil spirits but the Prophet knows what they know because God has told them…

    Without the Apostle and the Prophet the other callings of Evangelist, Pastor & Teacher cannot properly function…

    Unfortunately we do not presently see strong Apostles and Prophets in the Body of Christ…

    Thus we are not functioning in the unction of the Holy Spirit which we should be…

    We see a lot of false apostles and false prophets presently in the Body of Christ…

    Once this missing area – the Apostle and Prophet standing in the authority which they’ve been given by the Lord – is established this will free the flow of the oil down Aaron’s beard – God always flows through authority structures – authority structures which He has created…

    Once we see this, blessing will be released on the Body…

    And the remaining callings…

    We are fragmented, we are fragmented and this is because these giftings or these callings – the Apostolic and Prophetic are not recognised or functioning amongst us…

    Only the Lord can show each one of us where we fit…

    Only the Lord can show each one of us how each every other member of the Body fit in relation to ourselves and how we are to “line up” in His Body…

    “Lining up” is voluntary…

    No one can force anyone to “line up” (hupotasso) – we each have to decide this for ourselves…

    Once we do and it’s under Godly Authority – not the authority of men – then we will be blessed…

    This is an individual decision…

    Some are so hurt that they are not capable of making this decision…

    The Lord will heal them…

    Some are so hurt that they don’t want to lead (even though they know that they are called to be leaders)…

    Wherever we find ourselves in this “lining up” process (leading and being led) it is all good if it is in God’s will…

    I know that the Lord has been healing me in my understanding of (and submission to) this area – understanding that it is not forced has been a real breakthrough for me – we do what we do because we have a peace from the Lord to do it – He is always our covering – no one else ever can be (even when we are “lined up” under various authorities our covering must always only be the Lord)…

    The proof of the pudding is in the freedom…

    The Truth shall set you free…

    Freely you have received, freely give…

    If you’re ministering freedom and people are being set free to love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind through what you’re ministering then this is an attestation to the validity of your calling…

    The enemy can’t counterfeit genuine heart change…

    Love in the Lord,


  116. DonaldN Nov 21st 2012

    In fact, to build without a foundation in place first is devastating to one’s spiritual life.

    Hebrews 6:4-6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Confirm this with the parable of Jesus teaching on building on the Rock and building on sand and we get a good idea of the importance of a good foundation.

  117. Brother Paul Nov 21st 2012

    When reading through the comments section of what Andrew posts, I constantly come to the point where I am left wondering if this is truly a Christian site or not.
    Some of the comments which are made here are nothing more than someone pushing THEIR thoughts and ideas forward as being the ONLY thoughts and ideas available – with no room for discussion or debate. I’ve been to churches that operate in the same manner – it’s either our way or the highway!
    How about some (more of the) healthy debate and being tolerant by allowing others to have their say – it would go a long way.

  118. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    1Cr 3:6 KJV – I have planted, Apollos watered; but GOD GAVE THE INCREASE.
    1Cr 3:7 KJV – So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
    1Cr 3:8 KJV – Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive HIS OWN reward according to HIS OWN labour.
    1Cr 3:9 KJV – For we are labourers TOGETHER WITH GOD: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
    1Cr 3:10 KJV – According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and ANOTHER buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    1Cr 3:11 KJV – For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    1Cr 3:12 KJV – Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1Cr 3:13 KJV – Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    1Cr 3:14 KJV – If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Cr 3:15 KJV – If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    1Cr 3:16 KJV – Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1Cr 3:17 KJV – If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

    THE TRUE CHURCH IS NOT A FOOTBALL TEAM who joins together and FIGUREs OUT their plays as a TEAM!

    The Apostles were LONERS…..traveling according to the instructions of the Holy Spirit to groups of believers who were SCATTERED around the whole Middle East!

    It is OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS AN INDIVIDUAL to be COMPLETELY under the Authority and Control of the Holy Spirit.

    It is the Holy Spirit’s RESPONSIBILITY to move us like a chess piece according to the the plan of God and His Kingdom.
    Sometimes LINKING US with whatever believer or believers are included in that particular part of HIS PLAN. Sometimes NOT. For example, John the Apostle was acting as a PART OF THE BODY when he was ALONE with God receiving and then writing the Revelation that was given to him.

    A Plan is composed of PARTS AND PIECES….which come together into larger parts and pieces BEFORE THE WHOLE IS COMPLETED.

    It sounds like some have been taught that they must SEE THE WHOLE BEFORE THE WHOLE HAS POWER AND GLORY in the world.

  119. New Jerusalem Nov 21st 2012

    I should have written:


    Sorry about that.

  120. KalebSpirit Nov 22nd 2012

    One thing is for sure, we can’t all put our heads together and come up with an apostle. Only the Holy Spirit can anoint and prepare an apostle. I bet he could make whatever we were created to do out of any of us if we let him. Great warriors are not made overnight.

    New Jerusalem,

    I think we may have gone to the same church and might have a mutual friend. If you feel comfortable, email me at [email protected]

  121. Pilgrim Nov 22nd 2012

    I am uncomfortable with some of the references, repeated, and unnatural sounding,about God’s Glory and Manifest Presence. They sound like another teaching. A movement which I believe is off- track. It sounds good, but in practice it is more of what is making inroads into the church today and leading people astray. My apologies to anyone whom I may have misunderstood, but please, people,be careful people of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
    I agree with what Andrew is saying. The New Testament, in Acts, give us insight into how we should live. The organised church has Ichabod written all over it.Why do we continue to compromise with organisations which are rotten to the core? Out of tradition, or do we really think God cannot do better? We gloss over the grave error , the false practices , and excuse the sins of leadership as if God does not really mind. We have to BELIEVE in God’s word and all He tells us. How can we go on ignoring the fact that we are so seriously compromising the truth. We look to men for our example and we follow them – not God! Are we scared that God will fail us if we dare to believe and live by His Word? We must separate our -selves from all that is not true. Repentance? You say you have done that. Yet you continue to compromise.!
    I cannot use the word ‘church’ in relation to God’s people because of its continuing sin association and compromise since the formation of the Catholic Church and every off-shoot which we know as denominations, movements, streams or whateve, which prolong the compromise with truth. ‘Church’ is a bad translation of the word ‘ecclesia ‘which is translated as church evrytime it is used We are told God loves the ‘church’. No He does not. He loves us and especially ‘the called ‘ who are His body. Why do we not copy the saints of Acts in whom we see God at work instead of the man-made system which followed? Because of fear that we will be criticised or set apart as odd-balls? I say , follow the Holy Spirit and Him alone. Jesus said “I only do what I see the Father doing.” Is that not good enough for us , that we must invent ways and traditions of our own? Mark 7:8 “You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast to the traditionof Men.”
    I have been out of the organised church now for some years, at the specific leading of the Holy Spirit. I was concerned at first about how I would get on. ‘How would ….. ?’ I finally began to understand that I needed to take God at His word.”…. you have no need that anyone should teach you , as His anointing teaches you about everything,” (I John Ch 2 :27). I t has been an experience of ‘drinking water from my own well’. I pray and read His word daily and draw from what I know. I have had to ‘unlearn’ much of what I picked up from a lifetime in the church and to put into practice what I do know is true. I find that when I am uncertain, I can trust God to lead me safely and teach me new things and give me fresh revelation form His word. It is a cleansing time and I believe, a time of preparation for what is to come.I have greater strength and a deeper sense of peace.
    Yes , God is doing a new thing , but you would not believe it if it were told to you. Men say so many things out of different motivations.We have learned to be cautious and we must test all things. Trust God and He will bring to pass in your life all that He has promised and so much more than you could ever ask or even imagine. Don’t try to get ahead of Him. Watch and pray sincerely and you will not miss the ‘new thing’

  122. Grace Lynden WA Nov 22nd 2012

    Hi Martin -(long time no hear from you) I agree with you on the mentioned “new thing” but I still want to make these comments regarding discernment –

    we have to be so very
    careful in this age of deception, that we keep our eyes focused on Jesus
    and our ear tuned to the Holy Spirit who will point us to Jesus, and lead
    us in to ALL TRUTH!!!!
    When God does something, HE doesn’t just change HIS mind in mid-stream and
    throw everything out and start NEW – that’s man’s way of doing things – God
    builds on to and adds to what HE’s already done and in that way it may be
    “new” to some people who don’t know what God has already done……but Song
    of Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun….and that includes
    what God has done and is doing. When God lifts his hand and throws
    everything old away, that means his “glory has departed” – now some of
    these “new things” that are around today and we are supposed to accept as
    the “new and improved thing God is doing” probably God’s glory has already
    departed – or it was never in it in the first place – please, just be careful.

    We had youth revivals when I was a youth that are just like the youth
    revivals of today, no different – it’s the youth who are responding
    differently – some good and some bad.
    We just need to be more discerning when it comes to spiritual things and
    we won’t be deceived or follow man instead of God and end up in a BIG mess.

  123. Andrew Strom said: “More heresy, Tyrone? Keep your trinity debates off here, please. Thanks so much Andrew Strom”

    Me: Is believing the truth written in 1st John 5:7 and 1st Timothy 3:16 heretical?

    “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

    “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.”

    Also, I have never debated anyone about the ‘trinity’ doctrine on either of your sites. And I don’t recall ever making a previous comment about it because of the forum rules on the JTBTV site.

    May God bless you and your family in these last days.


  124. Sheeja John Nov 22nd 2012

    According to the New Covenant, those born of God are God’s children (John 1:12-13). And we who abide in Yeshua Ha Mashiach are the ‘living stones’ of the temple (1 Peter 2:4-5), Yeshua being the chief corner stone. And individually, we are the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16).
    As per the instruction of Yeshua Ha Mashiach, our Lord and Saviour, we all are brethren and none of us is above the other (Matthew 23:8).
    Moreover, God reveals how He operates through the New Covenant.
    In Jeremiah 31:33-34 we read, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; I will be their God and they shall be My people. NO MORE SHALL EVERY MAN TEACH his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ FOR THEY ALL SHALL KNOW ME FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM, says the Lord… ”

    In 1 John 2:20 and 27 we read, ‘But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.,
    ‘But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, you do not need anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.’
    To sum up the above verses: ‘Those who are born of God are taught by God.'(Reference John 6:45)

    It is Yeshua who decides which ‘living stone’ should be placed where. Since all who are born of God are taught of God, they will receive a witness in their spirit, whether, what is being said is of God or not. Yeshua said, ‘If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God, or whether I speak on My own authority.” (John 7:17)
    So, Yeshua who is building His Church will seperate the sheep from the goats. All that is happening here is a ‘Litmus test’.

  125. Andrew Nov 22nd 2012

    Thanks, Tyrone.

    “Trinity” debates lead to endless arguments and strife, my friend, as I’m sure you know.

    Keen to keep that tension off here if poss.

    Bless you!


  126. DonaldN Nov 22nd 2012

    Brother Paul…
    How can a person who feels led by God to have a ministry be tolerant of any and all opinions and be open to any doctrines expressed? If I have a ministry and I know God has called me, I must protect it and the doctrines I believe in. Andrew is open to others expressing their opinions, but if he feels they are wrong how can he allow them to go unchecked? If you believe a truth and someone else expresses another opinion, would you allow their opinion to continue without correction?

  127. DonaldN Nov 22nd 2012

    Having said that, I must say to
    that I believe you have allowed this discussion to wander far off of it’s original purpose of David Wilkerson’s thoughts on the term “New Thing”.

  128. Barry Schmidt Nov 22nd 2012

    “There is nothing new under the sun. What is to come has already been.” Eccles?

    The new thing God will do may be new to us, new to our generation, new even to the church . But the new thing is still going to be the result of the NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD and is going to come by His glorious grace alone. It is not going to be worked for, not going to be earned, not going to deserved and not going to be given because of anything men have done.

    Whenever God does an authentically new thing it’s really an ancient thing that comes from the ancient cross alone, is in agreement with the ancient Book alone and brings all the glory to the Ancient of Days alone.

    God is going to do a new thing. It’s going to be new only to this generation because we have departed from the ancient thing for so long we will think its a new thing. The prophets of this generation have said nothing of this new thing because they have all been putting their finger to the wind to see which way everyone else is prophesying and have stolen from one another words that God has not spoken.

    The new thing will be in accordance with the ancient gospel of grace.

    Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”‘” (Zechariah 4:6, 7 NASB)

  129. Amen to you above comment Barry Schmidt, for there is nothing we will see in the future that has not already being written in the past.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ has spoken clearly of all that is to come,

    As it is written , so it shall be .

  130. Brother Paul Nov 22nd 2012

    DonaldN.. your response to my earlier comment epitomizes the very comment I made.
    If one feels one has a ministry calling and one believes ‘a truth’ and another believes ‘a truth’ (both ‘truths’ equally able to be backed up by each person’s interpretation of scripture) – then surely we have exactly what we have today – a multitude of denominations each with their own multitude of factions etc.
    Of course corrections must be made when and where corrections should be made, however is that not one of the major problems – that there are a multitude of people and religions who believe that their interpretation is the one and only right interpretation?
    As I mentioned earlier.. I’ve been to churches just like that.. it’s either your way or the highway.. take it or leave it.
    Not, in my opinion, a very healthy environment. But you may differ.

  131. Concerned christian Nov 22nd 2012

    I assume that believers making their comments on Andrew’s web site are in agreement that the Body of Christ (true believers) can be distinquished between what is called the christian church and its membership whatever denomination, sect, or cult they belong to. For unity of God’s people which people are talking about will not come to fruition in the christian church. How can this be when false teachers and prophets have become part of the christian church and the acceptance of the Roman Catholic the biggest cult in the world? Does not make sense and not acceptable in sight of God Almighty. Many christians and christian leaders play ignorance to this by avoiding to discuss the issues and have allowed what the christian church has become – immoral, greedy, changing the Word of God to suit doctrine and practices, and woshipping and following christian celebrities which is nothing but idolatry and an abomination to the Lord God Almighty. Nothing is sacred anymore!
    Just look what has happened recently to the Church of England regarding women Bishops where evangelical christians within the CoE have been blamed for voting against women Bishops and there is a campaign and a petition for the General Synod to step down, to create a “new” Synod, and thus later reversing the decision. It will be similar in allowing same sex marriages in line with 21st century thought, a “new” thing to be allowed in the Anglican Church. The CoE is part of the christian church!
    Now lets look at the so called christian tv channels which are dominated by the Word of Faith Movement and charismatic leaders who are considered part of the christian church too. Is not another gospel being preached by false signs and wonders coming from another spirit from the occult realm, and all being done in the name of Jesus and declared to be of the Holy Spirit. The mind boggles over what is said over the airwaves with very little being said from those who are supposed to be shepherds of the Body of Christ. No wonder confusion reigns and there is a falling away from God Almighty!
    Continuing what is being broadcasted to be as “christian” and said to be of the “Holy Spirit” and proclaimed to be from “God” himself, why is all of this not contended and exposed?
    If these so called christian tv channels are actually deceiving its viewers and the christian church, then millions are listening to another gospel being preached, coming not from the Spirit of God, but from an alien spirit which has nothing to do with God Almighty, or the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    So what does Andrew and believers say when those involved causing a delusion on the airwaves, which has become big time, that rather then their interpretation of this “world wide revival” coming on planet earth, the reality is the Great Deception which believers have already mentioned on this web site.
    All of these things are dressed up to be something “new” and said to be of God.
    Either I am confused and walking away from biblical teaching, and part of another deception leading away from God Almighty?
    Please explain.

  132. Andrew Nov 22nd 2012

    Brother Paul – This website is not here to say “all views are valid” and “we accept any viewpoint”.

    This site was established to take a “position” and to preach a Truth that hopefully is truly biblical and sound and Spirit-led.

    I let a lot of opinions run here. -Including ones that I disagree with. Look at every thread on this site. You will see this is true.

    But when there are views strongly expressed that go against the very basis and emphasis that we are supposed to stand for, then I reserve the right to step in and state my case from Scripture quite plainly and directly.

    Sorry if that offends you.


    Andrew Strom.

  133. fabakary Nov 22nd 2012

    God is spirit; the words he speaks are spirit. As a spirit, He can attend to all the trillions of his creatures at once even with one word yet that one word is very enough to answer everyman unique desire. Is it not a wonder, with only 66 books of the bible, trillions of trillions of answers, is given to his creatures meeting them at the point of their needs? Though the truth of every word from God is one, yet the power of one word from the Lord can attend to millions of diverse situations. Is that not beautiful? Every word from God serve to bring man, into the perfect will of God? So every word from the scriptures including the book of revelation has something for me, to act as a light in bringing me into the perfect will of God today. God can use any medium including the past events or the future events for something for me today. Wait, maybe He will do something new again? Some are hearing a promised of new thing from some of the words. Don’t underestimate it. At the end of the day, the words will lead them at the perfect will of God, if they keep holding on Christ. He seems to be using the same words to address different circumstances, yet at the end of the day all the different circumstances will end in His perfect will, to those who continue in faith and patience. He may be doing some marvelous thing, even now, dealing with us differently, yet for the same end.

  134. Sheeja John Nov 22nd 2012

    Concerned Christian asked: why is all of this not contended and exposed?

    Everything is there for a purpose. Even the wicked act as a tool in the hand of God. Let us look at the following Scriptures:
    – And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow….The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9
    – Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord commanded the man saying, of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die. – Genesis 2:15-17

    Why did God permit the ‘tree of the knowledge of good and evil’ in the garden if He did not want Adam to eat from it?
    The answer to the above question can be obtained from another Scripture.

    – And you shall remember that the Lord your God led youall the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and TO TEST YOU, TO KNOW WHAT WAS IN YOUR HEART, WHETHER YOU WOULD KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS OR NOT. – Deuteronomy 8:2

  135. Sheeja John Nov 22nd 2012

    Few questions to ponder on….

    Apostle John was given a measuring rod and was asked to measure the temple of God, the altar and THOSE WHO WORSHIP THERE. (Rev. 11:1)
    1. What was John measuring in those that were worshipping there?
    2. Was John asked to lay the foundation of the temple of God or was he required to measure the temple of God?
    3. What are we suppose to do? To lay the foundation or to build on the foundation laid by Yeshua and the apostles?

  136. watchful Nov 22nd 2012

    1Cr 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

    1Cr 2:7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

    1Cr 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


    1Cr 2:10 but God has REVEALED IT TO US BY HIS SPIRIT. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

    How often do we take the scriptures, gild them in a manner of speaking and enclose them in a frame to hang on our wall and just look at them admiringly, not fully realizing that they speak of REALITY. We are coming to the end of this age, which was just as REAL as the new one will be. It’s time we grew up and realized that the Father will not just snap his fingers and perform some kind of magic to usher in the (real) new age, no, we have seen His ways and He changeth not, He will do it through His elect, those who have eyes to see, ears to hear, and faith to enter it. Know ye not that we shall be like the angels? There are those who taste of the powers of the age to come, the scripture says so and has given examples. Oh taste and see that the Lord is good! He is no respecter of persons so why should it seem strange to some. What does it mean, the FULLNESS of the gentiles? It is not adding on to the gospel, it is the FULLNESS of it, of what Jesus Christ has wrought through the cross and His resurrection, the full manifestation of it.

  137. From another concerned christian Nov 22nd 2012

    I have been told for several years by ministers that I must not touch thy anointed as they are bringing something new to the church. I have been to meetings where on stage well known christian leaders are being proclaimed to be the anointed ones and due to what they were teaching, people were encourage to participate in certain practices, and this was the new thing they were talking about much of which was unbiblical and ungodly. One example here was at a one meeting addressed to everyone present, christians and non christains were told to jump into the river to receive God’s blessing. What was not explained was that the river described had strong currents and was polluted. Praise the Lord I did not jump in.
    No one here in making their comments has really explained what these christian leaders, who attend these gatherings. sometimes as invited guests, and those engrossed in unbibl;ical teachings and practices, what their interpretation is that God doing “something new” and what in fact this is all about and which lies and is hidden underneath.
    Something new can mean anything today such as the occult being used as of the Holy Spirit which a few brethren have already explained on this web site.
    If folk think that the “anointed ones” are not allowed to be questioned and what they do, practice, and are involved with, then may I suggest that the church is polluted with strong currents taking people into all sorts of direction, and with christianity loosing its idendity because it has become sink or swim with the flow.
    Am I missing something or are people that afraid to speak out anymore due to avoiding not to converse about the subject matter which Andrew has raised? For I too have been watching God TV and I am astonished on how non biblical teachings by certain tv evangelists rule over the tv channel without being challenged and millions of viewers (and christians) are being conned in the process.
    God is doing something new is another phrase being used and is sowing seeds of confusion throughout the western church.
    So be it if allowed to take root without questions asked!!!!!!!

  138. As others have posted, I concur that God does a ‘new thing’ every time a soul is converted to Christ and enters the New Covenant of God!

    2nd Corinthians 5:16-17

    “Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

  139. Barry Schmidt Nov 22nd 2012

    Dear Concerned Christian:
    If you read back on virtually every article and post Brother Andrew has posted you will realize he and many others have spoken copiously warning against those who have proclaimed andpromoted a “new thing” in the name of Christ but which was really a poison, counterfeit and polluted thing. This post may not have comments about that because most of us on this post have already agreed with what you are saying and we have felt we have said everything there is to say about this issue.
    I encourage you to read Andrews other articles and books on this site. You will find them helpful and profitable.

  140. Tilman Nov 22nd 2012

    Whatever the new thing is, it can endure only if there is deep harmony within the Body of Christ. In this respect Derek Prince made an illusion to the greek “symphonai”. It shouldn’t be only an agreement to what somebody else is teaching. It has to be an accordance among believers – therefore it can’t be a demominational thing.

    If our concern is to glorify Jesus, whether it is by evangelization, helping the poor, or by founding a new movement, God can create this “thing” amidst us. God’s word is clear:
    “…them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.” (1st Sam 2:30)

  141. Sheeja John Nov 22nd 2012

    Dear all,
    The Word of God is for God’s children and not for outsiders. God reveals His covenant to those that love Him. The Psalmist says, ‘The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and He will show them His covenant. (Psalms 25:14) Yeshua said, ‘For I have given them Your words which you have given Me, and they have received them..’ (John 17: 8) Unless God remove the veil from our eyes, the Word of God, His promises and prophesies remain hidden to us. That’s why King David prayed: ‘Open my eyes that I may see wondrous things from your law.’ (Psalms 119:18) And apostle Paul wrote, ‘that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED; THAT YOU MAY KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,..’ (Ephesians 1:17-18). Further we read in Luke 24:45, ‘And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. ‘
    Even Yeshua’s disciples wondered why Yeshua spoke in parables. Scripture states, ‘And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” (Matthew 13:10-11)
    Yeshua reiterated saying, “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matthew 13:13)

    So, if you are not able to see what others see, please don’t jump to conclusion. Ask God to reveal the truth to you, whatever it may be. And if you in the Lord and you do not get the witness of the Holy Spirit in your spirit, just discard it.

  142. Amen, Sheeja John, Amen.

  143. Barnabas Nov 22nd 2012

    I applaud Andrew for providing this forum and also for his guidance as a thread develops. Disagreement IMO should be in an agreeable way.
    Maintaining the unity of the Holy Spirit we share. Contention handled with gentleness. Each step we take with Father,Son and Holy Spirit is is a new thing dwelling in the grace and mercy of each moment. Even every breathe I tale. A sinful person sustained and clothed by the Holy. Speed and volume of information often communicates the context clearly.

  144. ValleyAnt Nov 22nd 2012

    Hey, Val. You said, “If we could just return to the foundation, we would be doing marvellously well….How to do that remains illusive, sadly.” When I read that, I was reminded of this passage: “In returning and rest is your salvation; in quietness and trust is your strength. But you would not” (Isa. 30:15). There’s a lot of talk about some ‘new thing’, but as several have commented here, it’s really returning to the old thing in our ‘new times’.

  145. Brother John Nov 22nd 2012

    To from another concerned christian…

    The test of those who claim to be christians but are not following Christ is when they are tested themselves and if they are in sound biblical doctrine. Another test is what the Lord said in His parable of the Sower and another parable involved with the 10 virgins.
    Those who claim to be shepherds are being tested whether they care for the flock or are paid hirelings.
    I would say that the christian church is being super sifted to find out who are sheep and who are goats.
    The litmus test undergoing in these End Times is revealing what is of the Holy Spirit and what is not to include another gospel being preached and which is counterfeit.
    That is why those who say that they are followers of Christ will and have they laid down their lives for Him who died for them at Calvery.
    The Last Days is proof of the pudding if christians are prepared to face persecution and die for Him instead of putting self first in these circumstances.
    There is enough evidence of people who play with religion and that includes the many christian leaders who are abandoning The Way for something else and are betraying the church for their own self gratification.
    Whether or not the church will be renewed or revived awaits to be seen. If people do repent in their thousands, which alas is not happening in the 21st century, then Almighty God by His Holy Spirit, will answer the prayers of those who love Him and prepared to put Him first. For without REPENTANCE, so far lacking in the churches and of our nations, there cannot and will not be revival which so many christian organisations and movements are relying on.
    So don’t worry about the tele evangelists who are whipping up hysteria on these man made, greedy, and compromising tv stations. Don’t worry about the millions of viewers who are being duped by these false teachers and prophets masquerading as sheep but are ravenous wolves. Let Almighty God deal with them because you cannot. But continue to warn and alert the true Body of Christ. For after all, it is the Bridegroom who will wed His Bride, and it is the Lord Jesus Christ who will return to the same place where He went from.
    If people have no desire for Christ Jesus and His teachings, it is them who will be left behind when the Body of Christ is taken to be with Him.
    That is why I firmly believe in the scriptures regarding the Rapture. The question is are you ready when He says Come Home?

  146. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012


    Good Good words of truth. Amen.

  147. ValleyAnt Nov 22nd 2012

    I thought this posted, but apparently it didn’t.

    Journalist Christian, thanks for sharing that part of your story.

    Barry Schmidt, in reference to what you said about William Branham, it’s important that we don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. The Bible does say there are mysteries and hidden things beyond the written words. The written words are of primary importance; the revelation of the Holy Spirit is of secondary importance. David said, “The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him”; Solomon said, “It is the glory of the Lord to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out”; Jesus told His disciples, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God have been given to you to know”; Paul said, “Men ought to consider us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God” and “the dispensation of the Grace of God was given to me, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery.”

    I’m reading ‘God’s Generals’ (Roberts Liardon) and am sobered by the mistakes that some revivalists made in the past. I think it’s important that while we discern what is false (not from God), we also discern what is true (from God) so that we don’t make needless mistakes and become like the church at Ephesus who excelled in discerning the false but didn’t hold fast to the True.

  148. Andrew Nov 22nd 2012

    BTW – A very happy Thanksgiving to all our US readers.

    One of my favourite holiday celebrations in all the world.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  149. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012

    ValleyAnt said:

    “The written words are of primary importance; the revelation of the Holy Spirit is of secondary importance.”

    New Jerusalem comment:

    That statement alone is not found in scripture.

    Where did Father state that our FIRST and UTMOST PRIORITY is the written word?

    The FIRST COMMANDMENT has not changed from OT to NT.

    Mat 22:36 KJV – Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

    Mat 22:37 KJV – Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    Mat 22:38 KJV – This is the first and great commandment.

    Mat 22:39 KJV – And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mat 22:40 KJV – On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    The Holy Spirit is God. He should have FIRST PRIORITY AT ALL TIMES, right along with the Father and Jesus Christ.

    The 3 PERSONS are CO-EQUAL in power, nature, and eternity.

    The Holy Spirit is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient because He IS God.

    The written word is a SHADOW of the LIVING WORD, JESUS CHRIST.

    Jesus Christ became flesh to give us the written word in 3-D LIVING COLOR, because the written word is dead without the Holy Spirit INFUSING HIS ETERNAL LIFE INTO IT.

    Jesus Christ is the sum total of ALL THE WRITTEN WORD in 3-D Living Flesh.


    Not conforming our flesh to our MINISCULE understanding of the written word. Rom12:1-2

    Rev 19:13 KJV – And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

  150. Barnabas Nov 22nd 2012
  151. Barnabas Nov 22nd 2012

    The simplicity of the Torah, New Jerusalem, the framework of two commands that communicate the essence of the embodiment of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. With further commentary from the 10 commandments and the beatitudes. A clear foundation of teaching and learning that is often lacking. Often if we love others as we do ourselves we are doing a disservice as we fail to love ourselves as the Lord does. The newness of light in our experience should hopefully shared in love bring light to others.

  152. New Jerusalem you said above,

    because the written word is dead without the Holy Spirit INFUSING HIS ETERNAL LIFE INTO IT.

    Jesus said,

    It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. (John 6:63 NASB)

    Paul said of Moses,

    This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you. (Acts 7:38 NASB)

    The written word is living…

    The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they can’t see it…

    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God…

    The word (the written word) is alive – many have been converted by the written word – reading with understanding and revelation by the Holy Spirit – once the Lord shines in their heart so they can receive the power of the written word they are converted – the Law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul – once the heart has been given to the receiver to be able to receive…

    Yes, Jesus is the Word of God and he wrote the written word and because He wrote it it is alive (He breathed His life into it) because He is alive forevermore…

    Love in the Lord,


  153. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012

    Thank you Andrew Horton. Your words confirmed what I wrote.

  154. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012

    Barnabas……Beautiful song! Thank you for sharing with us.

    May Father baptize you in His Grace, Love, and Glory.

  155. I don’t believe so New Jerusalem…

    I believe that the scriptures I shared and the words which I wrote showed that the words which you wrote – “because the written word is dead without the Holy Spirit INFUSING HIS ETERNAL LIFE INTO IT” – were contrary to scripture…

    Love in the Lord,


  156. ValleyAnt Nov 22nd 2012

    @Another Concerned Christian. I think there are so many false voices (TV, radio, etc.) that drown out the voices that speak up. Several months ago, I went to the church of a pastor who suddenly told me, during our first meeting, that he has an apostolic call and is already an apostle (but is not). I found that quite strange. This pastor’s unfaithful and lusting eyes continually wandered outside his own little flock as he dreamed of fame, prestige, and recognition in ‘higher places’. Though from a humble, small town, this pastor thinks he can’t be ‘touched as he is ‘mightily anointed’ and plans to be anointed by Rick Joyner into the apostolic office soon. With this self-serving mindset so prevalent among ministers, it’s best to simply seek God for faithful ministers and let God deal with unfaithful ministers. We can speak up and pray, but as they enjoy their ‘touch not the anointed’ status, God will ‘touch’ them Himself in time, for good or bad.

    Sheeja John, you said about the revelation of the Holy Spirit that if a person doesn’t understand a thing, he should ask the Lord for revelation rather than jumping to conclusions. Amen. We all know in parts and have different gifts and lives and so should practice waiting (openness to being wrong or not having the full picture) when we don’t fully know a thing (1Cor. 4:5) as well as this passage: “If anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God…”

  157. ValleyAnt Nov 22nd 2012

    New Jerusalem, let’s not get carried along by emotion. This is the internet, therefore, much communication is ‘lost in transaction’. I trust I won’t have to clarify what I said.

  158. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012

    Andrew….except for your statement of denial…..everything that you wrote reads the same as what I wrote. Seriously.

    ValleyAnt….the only “emotion” I have is I am serious about what I wrote.

  159. New Jerusalem you said,

    …the written word is dead without the Holy Spirit INFUSING HIS ETERNAL LIFE INTO IT

    Scripture says (and I agreed with scripture) that the written word is alive in and of itself…

    Love in the Lord,


  160. New Jerusalem Nov 22nd 2012

    2Cr 3:6 NASB – who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, NOT OF THE LETTER but of the Spirit; for THE LETTER KILLS, but the Spirit gives life.

    The definition of the word “letter”

    primarily denotes “that which is traced or drawn, a picture;” then, “that which is written,”

    (a) “a character, letter of the alphabet,” 2Cr 3:7; “written,” lit., “(in) letters;” Gal 6:11; here the reference is not to the length of the Epistle (Paul never uses gramma, either in the singular or the plural of his Epistles; of these he uses epistole, No. 2), but to the size of the characters written by his own hand (probably from this verse to the end, as the use of the past tense, “I have written,” is, according to Greek idiom, the equivalent of our “I am writing”). Moreover, the word for “letters” is here in the dative case, grammasin, “with (how large) letters;”

    (b) “a writing, a written document, a bond” (AV, “bill”) Luk 16:6, 7;

    (c) “a letter, by way of correspondence,” Act 28:21;

    (d) the Scriptures of the OT, 2Ti 3:15;

    (e) “learning,” Jhn 7:15, “letters;” Act 26:24, “(much) learning” (lit., “many letters”); in the papyri an illiterate person is often spoken of as one who does not know “letters,” “which never means anything else than inability to write” (Moulton and Milligan);

    (f) “the letter,” the written commandments of the Word of God, in contrast to the inward operation of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant, Rom 2:27, 29; 7:6; 2Cr 3:6;

    (g) “the books of Moses,” Jhn 5:47.

    The definition of the word “scripture”

    “a letter of the alphabet,” etc. is used of the Holy Scriptures in 2Ti 3:15. For the various uses of this word see LETTER.

  161. Richard Savage Nov 22nd 2012

    NJ, what about the point of the thread? Where’s that in your posts? Perhaps this is the new thing, arguing pointlessly.

  162. David Marsh Nov 22nd 2012

    My dear Karen,
    You said;
    “The new, as Andrew said at the beginning, is really the old but so ancient and so long forgotten that we cannot understand it. It needs to be revealed to us anew.”

    And Andrew said
    “And I say-
    Establish the Apostolic foundations first, like the apostles did in the Jerusalem church – and then such GLORY becomes a possibility.
    Without this foundation, it simply is a pipe dream.
    This is very clear from the NT.”

    Both of these statements are absolutely correct.

    Karen ( and anyone else ) if you would like a free pdf copy of my 10 years research on the N.T. church inner workings – I will be glad to send it to you.

    Just email me at [email protected]
    and I will be glad to send you a copy.

    Yours in Christ

    David Marsh.

  163. Andrew Nov 22nd 2012

    Thanks, Richard – yes.

    Let us get back on Topic.

    Bless you!


  164. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Andrew Strom, there was an article you posted about four or five articles back. It drew people together in such a unity that the fragrance of unity began to permeate the discussion. Though one or two new people tried to cause problems, at least 90% of everyone who posted was in agreement. It was a beautiful thing. I just went back to JBTV to see if the article is there. I didn’t find it but did note that your article titled ‘Love People Please!’ has twenty-eight comments while articles that give any little room for debate get up to twelve times more comments. The Bible says, “How good and how pleasant it is when brethren dwell together in unity… For there, the Lord commanded the blessing– Life forever.” While there’s a time for debate and all that, can we expect God to command the blessing in any Christian circle where unity is not a main part of the vision.

  165. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    David Marsh, that sounds like something I’d like to add to my reading.

  166. David Marsh Nov 23rd 2012

    Dear ValleyAnt,
    You are most welcome to email me and I will send you the work.
    I have had it scrutinized by every faithful ,Word centered – man of God that I know ( Pastor Wayne included ) and none have objected to anything that is in the book.

    The work began in 1994 with a great desire to understand EXACTLY how the likes of Smith Wigglesworth was able to walk with our Lord Jesus so intimately. I wanted to unearth Smith’s secrets so that I could know my Lord in this same way.
    The Lord was very gracious and gave me many many scriptural insights to support my findings. But in 2003 the Lord had me add another chapter to the end of this book and that is the biblical understanding of the New Testament church. Its aims, structure and function.

    You ( and anyone else here on this site ) are most welcome to email me and I will send you a copy of the work.

    God bless you

    David Marsh. [email protected]

  167. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Thanks, David. I’m currently reading Roberts Liardon’s ‘God’s Generals’ and am on about the end of the third chapter (what dismal stories so far). Wigglesworth is featured in the book, but I haven’t made it to him yet. Sure, I’ll take a look at your book. The “aims, structure, and function” of the NT church are things that I’m certainly interested in.

  168. Sheeja John Nov 23rd 2012

    It was YAHWEH, who called me, sanctified me, anointed me to do what I am doing.
    The apostles, prophets, pastors and teachers cannot digest this little ‘nobody’. Yet I continue, because He who called me is faithful, and will give me the grace to accomplish the purpose for which He has called me, prepared me and sent me..

    If what I communicate do not witness to your spirit, just discard it. If you find errors in what was shared, bring in the correction.

    I do not believe in the pointless discussion on the ‘New Thing’. Studying the Scriptures, sharing the Scriptures and being led by His Spirit is all that I seek.

  169. Brother Paul Nov 23rd 2012

    Re Concerned Christian, Another Concerned Christian and Seeja John (among others including Andrew Strom).. thank you for your honesty and for speaking what you believe to be true.
    Many blessings…

  170. Traveler Nov 23rd 2012

    Hi Andrew

    Please consider this request;

    All professing Christians want to see revival and the power of God move as it did in the book of Acts. But the fact is that this is not going to be happening unless God actually shows up and the gifts of the spirit start to manifest as it did in the first days of the church when the gospel was still fresh and uncontaminated.

    Obviously there is something blocking and preventing this from occurring, as God never changes, logical deductions then dictates that the fault is with us. God will confirm his word if applied correctly, with the signs and wonders following which in turn attracts the interest of the heathen which again leads into full revival.

    To this end please could you start a thread dedicated to identifying who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is and who God is. There will be no revival if the majority of the body is so tied up in its traditional doctrines that they are preaching another Christ who is not the one found in the gospels. Obviously this means looking at the Trinity doctrine and dealing with the can of worms it opens up. The sad part is that blocking discussion on this topic is the very thing that is blocking revival and hindering the Spirit.

    If the modern body cannot get past its evolved doctrines and later tradition then there is not going to be any return back to the original gospel understood by the original Apostles that operated during the time the book of Acts was taking place.


  171. fabakary Nov 23rd 2012

    Traveller wrote:
    ” Obviously this means looking at the Trinity doctrine and dealing with the can of worms it opens up. The sad part is that blocking discussion on this topic is the very thing that is blocking revival and hindering the Spirit.”
    are you serious ? did the Lord Jesus Christ told the disciples wait for the “understanding of a trinity” or wait for power from on high” Do you think they were busy trying to know the differences between Jesus, the holy spirit and the father or they were praying? Do you think an understanding of “a trinity” mean “knowing God’? Show me where Jesus or God ever spoke that “know first the difference between the father, son and Holy Spirit, before you will be saved”? What I saw in the scripture is Philip preach Jesus and a whole community had revival? Believe on Jesus Christ, Christ meaning the anointing of Jesus and be saved? Revival comes in when people believe on the anointing of JESUS (the Christ) for that anointing saves and teaches us and Jesus is that anointing, and that anointing will exalt Jesus far above all principalities , powers and dominion ? Jesus said eternal life in us will make us”Know God” and that eternal life is received by believing in him? So if you want people to know God , it is not by mental debate about the personality of God, is first Faith in God ,or in Jesus and eternal life of God will flow in us , and help us know God from glory to glory?

  172. Andrew Nov 23rd 2012

    I agree with Fabakery.

    The trinity doctrine has little bearing on this.

    2000 years of Revival history have certainly taught us that much.

    Bless you!


  173. jackrabbit Nov 23rd 2012

    nail the offering plate to the wall and see how long the new thing lasts. with no gold rush, there is no new thing.

  174. fabakary Nov 23rd 2012

    Traveller wrote:
    It is now in this time that people lack understanding as you have just demonstrated so graphically”
    So their previous “understanding” of who God is and who Jesus is never brought in revival until God brought it? Did that understanding brought in the outpouring or it was because of the dead, resurrection and ascension of Jesus? Did Jesus tell them “the holy ghost will come to you because you understand the difference between me and God or because of His ascension? Is a mere Faith in Jesus enough for one to be saved? Can one understand and know God without having eternal Life? Did the disciples get eternal life when Jesus resurrected or before he resurrected? What did paul mean when talking about Jesus Christ “that I might know him and the power of his resurrection? Doesn’t that proves no one can know who Jesus is except by revelation and not mental debate ? doesn’t that only prove that there are measures or levels or knowing Jesus ?

  175. 2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
    2Co 11:5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.
    2Co 11:6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
    2Co 11:7 Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge?
    2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you.
    2Co 11:9 And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.
    2Co 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia.
    2Co 11:11 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
    2Co 11:12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
    2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

  176. From the above verses it is clear that Paul had to contend with the preaching of a false Christ.

    We have all the same issues today which create a major block on our side of actually coming under the new covenant , which is where the true authority of the true risen Lord Jesus Christ , is made known to us. i.e. “revival “

  177. which is why Jesus gave us this warning;

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
    Mat 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

  178. so regarding the article it is true that the deceptions and traditions of man made religion always have to be crucified and replaced with He who is the truth,” the rock ” for the restoration of what was ” birthed ” with the sending of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost

  179. Sheeja John Nov 23rd 2012

    The trinity….
    Read the following verses carefully and try answering the questions that follows.

    Apostle Paul wrote, ‘that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, the Father of glory, MAY GIVE TO YOU THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION in the knowledge of Him, THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED; THAT YOU MAY KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,..’ (Ephesians 1:17-18).
    1. Who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ?
    2.Who gives the Spirit of wisdom and revelation?
    3. Why is the Spirit of wisdom and revelation given?

    Dear all, you not only need to know the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, their distinctiveness and oneness, you also need to know the name of our God, and the name of our Lord.
    The name of our God is YEHOVAH/ YAH (Psalms 68:4) and of our Lord is ‘Yeshua’ and not ‘Jesus’

    In Exodus 6:2-3 we read, ‘And God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am YEHOVAH. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by MY NAME ‘YEHOVAH’ I was not known to them.”
    In Psalms we read, O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt HIS NAME together. (Psalm 34:3) How will you magnify God’s name, if you don’t know His name?
    And in Isaiah 12:4 we read, “Praise the Lord, CALL UPON HIS NAME; declare His deeds among the peoples, make mention that HIS NAME is exalted.
    How will you call upon His name, if you don’t know His name?
    ‘The NAME of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe. (Proverbs 18:10)
    I will set him on high, because he has known MY NAME. (Psalms 91:14)

    And in Exodus 23:13, God warns saying, “make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.”

  180. Barnabas Nov 23rd 2012

    Could it be the new thing is the acceptance of the triangulation of witness from Father, Son And Holy Spirit revealing the shortfall of
    (a) Authority and truth with the wrong spirit
    (b) truth and zeal without authority
    (c) authority and zeal without the truth.
    Maturity coming from recognising the wisdom imparted in the OT, the gospels record of the Living Word and the letters documenting life in the Holy Spirit. Focus on one without the balance of the other leads to failing to maintain the unity given from the birthing relationship.

    For the record I believe it is the obligation and responsibility of each post writer to maintain the unity, not primarily Andrew.

  181. fabakary Nov 23rd 2012

    sheeja john wrote:

    “Apostle Paul wrote, ‘that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, the Father of glory, MAY GIVE TO YOU THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION in the knowledge of Him, THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED; THAT YOU MAY KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,..’ (Ephesians 1:17-18).
    1. Who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ?
    2.Who gives the Spirit of wisdom and revelation?
    3. Why is the Spirit of wisdom and revelation given?”
    (..to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col.2v2) now from the scripture quoted in Galatians it is stated the mystery of God and of the father and of Christ. Now who is God, who is the Father and who is Christ? if you take them literally as stated in Colossians then there is a difference between God , the father and Christ ? This kind of argument does not profit anything. I know of many people safe here in my country by having faith on Jesus without knowing this kind of a trinity teaching. You see revival does not come through this mental understand of some personality of God, it comes by knowing God or Christ in the spiritual sense through intimacy, in fellowship.

  182. fabakary Nov 23rd 2012

    sorry the scripture are from Colosian 2v2 not Galatians

  183. AGazette Nov 23rd 2012

    ValleyAnt Wrote: I just went back to JBTV to see if the article is there. I didn’t find it but did note that your article titled ‘Love People Please!’ has twenty-eight comments while articles that give any little room for debate get up to twelve times more comments.

    The reason there was only 28 comments is because the web page was shut down and you could only post by sending it through email for scrutiny.

    I personally so not like signing up to religious web pages because they then constantly flood you with emails wanting to sell books or saying they “need money” ads.

    That might not be the case here but 98% of the religious web sites practice this.


  184. Teshuva Nov 23rd 2012

    Sheeja John,
    Earlier in this thread, you wrote, “what will hell not prevail against” concerning the passage On this rock, I will build My church, and the gates of hell will not prevail.
    I stated to you that I had pondered that question myself a couple of days before you asked it, and my answer was the hell will not prevail against the Glory of God.
    However I did find a passage of scripture that tells what will not prevail.
    Proverbs 19:21 states that, One can devise many plans in ones own mind, but Adonai’s plan will PREVAIL.
    This leaves me to understand that on this Rock/Adonai’s plan, I will build My church and the gates of hell will not Prevail.
    I guess this answer is more concrete.

  185. Teshuva Nov 23rd 2012

    As for knowing Gods name,
    He told me to call Him Father and so Father is what I call Him. I did not call my natural dad Jayson, but called him dad. To me this suggests relationship, and addresses a right order and respect, and love.

  186. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    I guess this will make me popular!

    Is. 43:19 See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?

    One could read that as the Lord God expecting us to miss His new thing and saying, do you not perceive it, with a smile on His face.

    Roger says it best earlier in this thread:

    “The Lord is doing a ‘new thing’. For so long people have prayed and waited for revival, expecting masses to flock into the churches, but they see nothing happening. God is performing that revival, but not as people expect it. It is a ‘quiet’, but powerful move of the Holy Spirit, a move in the hearts of certain individuals, a personal revival that is bringing many to a very personal relationship with the Lord. Firstly to a place of repentance, than an awareness of a new work, in many cases a ‘coming out’ from the established church system to a place of ‘newness’, to fresh pastures, to a place where people will allow the Holy Spirit, not mankind, to lead and dictate the order of fellowship, to a place where God Himself can and will be present during worship, praise and fellowship.”

    If the Godly man Elijah could miss the fact God had kept unto Himself a faithful remnant of 7000 people, how much more likely is it we’ve done the same?

  187. AGazette Nov 23rd 2012

    As for the article on a new thing. It appears from reading the article that God is saying through Wilkerson that the church is “Ichabod”. Pentecostals love to take scriptures in the OT and make them apply today. Just like we find with the book called the harbinger.

    If there is any new thing it was done at the cross where Jesus said, “it is finished”.

    Since then men have left their first love and desire the good things of this life, which crowd out the things of God.

    A true revival will only come through the Lord God if He wills it, some minister hanging a sign in front of the church saying a revival will be next week for three days is not of the Lord.

    Lord Bless!

  188. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    AGazette, how true!

    “I personally so not like signing up to religious web pages because they then constantly flood you with emails wanting to sell books or saying they “need money” ads.”

    The moment an outfit needs to beg for money they’re already working in the flesh. Our Father is not poor; He has already provided for His work before commissioning it. And, He’s a most generous employer too!

  189. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Sheeja John, well said. By the way, I said ‘amen’ to what you wrote. I’m not here to bring correction (but perhaps clarification). As for the purpose to which He called you and the Grace He has given you for it, I’m interested in hearing about it. I think it would be edifying to share those kinds of things.

    Gazette, thanks for your patience and for clarifying.

    With all this talk of new things, I’m suddenly developing an itch to go shopping for a whole bunch of new things! What better day to shop than today, Black Friday. (For those who don’t know, Black Friday is the day after Thanksgiving Day in the States and the busiest shopping day here because of major sales towards Christmas.) I’m throwing out all my old things, except my favorite green shirt of course, and getting all new things. Thank God I have no money on hand or I would’ve considered it… Hey, it was humorous to me!

  190. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    And me ValleyAnt, I’m broke too!

  191. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    I knew you would appreciate my humor, Richard. Lol. Maybe we can go window shopping and just look, stare, and gaze. Try it. It does wonders for inward discontent! From now on, I’m saving half my money towards Black Friday next year. I might miss out on cheap new things this year, but I’m not missing out next year!

  192. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    Lovely ValleyAnt, will look forward to it.

    I do try to save a little, but, almost every time there’s some savings, I need to spend it. This time our old car is dying fast and living out in the wilds (well, wilds of Eastern England that is) we absolutely need transport.

    Guess I really am looking for a ‘new thing,’ but this will definitely be second hand!

  193. watchful Nov 23rd 2012

    Richard: How about this one: “Forget the former things, do not even recall it to mind”! lol! (the verse just preceding the passage you posted) It was these passages that were given to me to help me understand why He had led me out of the churches and what was the new thing He was doing in my life. But it needs to be obeyed by placing our sacred cows on the altar – so that we will only keep that which doesn’t burn up and stands the test of the fire.

    But of course these things must be understood in spirit, it must come by revelation of the Holy Spirit, because the minute flesh and carnal mind gets a hold of it we mess it up and produce a counterfeit. Once we receive a thing in spirit, then we find we FOLLOW it, the plan of God as someone wrote, rather than carrying out our own plans (what WE THINK He wants with our natural mind), which are just dead works and come to nothing, and I’ve done my share of that. But when we see that He is ALREADY moving and carrying out His plans/will, our job is just to get on board His train and take a seat (submission). Seems like He really only does something when “I” am at rest. In other words our vessel needs to be EMPTY before He can fill it, at least this is how I understand it.

  194. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Hey, Richard, you’re doing better than I am. And secondhand new things is all we’re going to be getting in our times. The early Church got to the new things in quality first. But we’re just going to have a lot more in quantity than they had. For sure.

  195. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    ValleyAnt, I think we’re getting it, but just not looking in the right place. And you’re right about our times – better the little the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked (Ps 37:16) Living my life in the West, that’s not so easy! Spent time in Czech just after the Wall came down. People had money but little spend it on. They were then looking for a new thing, a new direction and casting about all over the place. Here it’s the opposite, but the same!

    Watchful, yes me too when I was called out twenty years ago. Coming from the almost Roman Catholic end of the Church of England, through Methodism and Pentecostalism, there was, and probably still is, much to be set down on the altar. Much has indeed needed to be forgotten. It’s been some journey, as I look back, but one I wouldn’t have missed for anything.

    It’s only very recently I’ve come to realise this is a new thing and it’s world wide. For so many years my wife and I were given to understand we were the pariahs, the odd ones out. Not so, it seems now.

    And Watchful, you’re quite right about the vessel being empty and standing still. But less easy in the consumer mad, money orientated West when brotherhood with like-experienced Christians is difficult to find.

  196. AGazette Nov 23rd 2012


    In America everyone signs up for dozens of credit cards to make it a happy Black Friday. Forget thanksgiving the stores were opening their doors then as well.

    We like plastic Chinese things here, only in America will you see this in a bad economy.

  197. Peter H Nov 23rd 2012

    AGazette mentioned this “I personally so not like signing up to religious web pages because they then constantly flood you with emails wanting to sell books or saying they “need money” ads.”

    Christian web sites and christian tv channels claim to be transparent when it comes to discussing biblical teaching. This has not been the case with those I fellowship with.
    In fact when a topic has been raised on programmes broadcasted by the well known christian tv stations, they only allow accolades and dismiss everything else. They tend to read out e-mails sent in in praising programmes and the presenters. Messages are looked at first before read out. It is similar with what is allowed on their web sites where comments sent first appear then deleted. They are just as bad as the secular world in monitoring communications and which is allowed and which is not.
    We have tried to express and share the scriptures with Revelation TV who suppose to be a “church without walls.” It claims to be transparent with its building the foundation monthly programme but alas this is not so. And why? Its finances, income and expenditure do not add up. Creative accounting is applied instead.
    The viewers are supposed to be Revelation TV but this has not been so. The channel is run by a management system controlled by a few people – an elite – just what happens in the church system.
    The result has been not following the straight and narrow but serving the Broad church which can mean anything, for example, having on board key figures of the Word of Faith Movement and one cultish church called the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
    There has been a number of respected church leaders and ministries who have questioned the position of Revelation TV and the direction it is going. These have been Justin Peters, Jacob Prasch, Bob Mitchell, Brain Gemmell, and a christian journalist called John Shipton. Justin, Jacob and John have been publically ridiculed and their valid comments dismissed. Revelation TV block their comments on their web site and nothing is allowed from them to be read out, etc, on their programmes. This is censorship done in the name of Jesus.
    This is the same type of practice which other so called christian tv stations do to many christians. For they only allow certain christian leaders on their programmes who are in line and preach similar messages as they do.
    Scripture is being altered to suit doctrine. The name of Jesus is usded flippantly. Revival meetings on air are man made to suit tv ratings. And of course, another gospel is preached to gullible christians and to unsuspected viewers. This is there termology called revival, their version called a “new thing,” but the reality is that people are being deceived in the process, and are being hoodwinked.
    The Body of Christ will not hear about revival on tv. It will not be televised on the tv, where some stations, for example, have set up studios in Jerusalem to record the return of Jesus.
    Revival will be known through word and mouth and from written evidence – not hearsay with details recorded on decision cards and left as that which WoF preachers do such as Reinhard Bonnke and his right hand man called Daniel Kolenda.
    Revival cannot be manufactured at large gatherings and conferences which christians pay for tickets to hear christian celebrities.
    Revival begins with a contrite heart, the personal act of repentance and not by repeating a sinners prayer, bowing before the Lord God Almighty, accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, turning your life around from where you once were, and walking with Him who dies for your sins by shedding His precious blood which has cleansed from all sin.
    Revival begins in your heart, the way you live, act and react. Being obedient to Him and allowing yourself to be used by Him.
    Revival is a change of heart and lifestyle in a way which is godly and scriptural.
    If you allow the Lord Jesus to dwell in you by His Holy Spirit, people will see a difference to what you were and you were once. For revival is ongoing and with love in your heart will reach out to others who do not known Him, and to have fellowship with Him and the Body of Christ.
    I would like to add more but I will leave this to other believers to do so.
    Blessings in the Lord Jesus who is coming soon!

  198. AGazette Nov 23rd 2012

    Peter H
    Good post, I agree! what we see today has not been God ordained. If a new thing does happen it will be as you shared with repentance and a turning to God with the whole heart.

    I realize we were making light of Black Friday which is Thursday now as well but it is appalling that Big chain stores are merchandising the Birth of Christ to bring in big money at the end of the year.

    The church joins in wholeheartedly as they think this is what Christianity is about.

    If a new thing does happen and a revival takes place it will totally be outside the church system.

  199. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    AGazette: ‘If a new thing does happen and a revival takes place it will totally be outside the church system.’ Yes, and yes again.

    We have a very clear example in history. Corrupted Rome, incidentally it seems not unlike the modern churches in so many practices, was not revived. Some would ask, how could it be revived. Instead, people Europe wide were revived and offered the chance to come out of her, given the Bible in the vernacular, and what we have come to call the Reformation was taking place. Rome ameliorated it practices in the wake of Reformation events, but essentially it is still the Medieval Rome under the hood.

    If we say, as I do along with Roger, such an event has been underway a long time already in our life times, then indeed God is doing that new thing, and like the Romans of yore, it’s not being seen. If however, we’re looking for a new thing yet to come, what better than a complete sidelining of what is and the creation of something utterly new?

    Voila! Whether it’s been happening unseen, or is about to happen, we have a template in history.

  200. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    Hey, Valley, seeing as how we’re both broke, if I lob a few Big Macs over the pond, will you throw a Chevvy back, please?

    Just trying to lighten things a bit – always being broke these days is very wearisome.

  201. Sheeja John Nov 23rd 2012

    Does the name of God matters?

    ‘Truly, those times of ignorance God overlooked, but now command all men everywhere to repent.’ – Acts 17:30

    How will you point a Gentile to one true God? What name will you use?

    – For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, MY NAME shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to MY NAME, and a pure offering; for MY NAME shall be great among the nations,” says the Lord of hosts. – Malachi 1:11

    – And this is eternal life, THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and JESUS CHRIST whom You have sent.
    (What is eternal life? Whom has Yeshua glorified on earth?)

    – I have MANIFESTED YOUR NAME, to the men whom You have given Me out of the world… – John 17:6 (Who has manifested manifested whose name?)

    – Holy Father, keep through YOUR NAME those you have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in YOUR NAME… – John 17:11-12 (What Name)

    – Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE untill the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began. – Acts 4:19-21

    – Nor is their salvation in any other, for there is no other NAME under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. – Acts 4:12
    – That at THE NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth, and of those under the earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:10-11) (At whose name should every knee bow?)

    My name is Sheeja, and if you change it into Greek and call me something else, will I respond???
    My calling is to point the Body of Christ to the TRUTH. For His Word is Truth. (John 17:17) That’s why I communicate through Scriptures
    Thanks Richard Savage for that excellent piece. It has indeed made you popular.

  202. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Watchful, I’m praying for some revelation at this time. Maybe you could offer up some prayer for me regarding that.

    Richard, what right places are you speaking about looking in. The Lord, some months ago, told me that what I seek is near me but that I need revelation to find it. I’m praying for this revelation now. I don’t want to be looking in the wrong place.

    Gazette, you’re right about the early Black Friday. Long ago, there used to be twelve days of Christmas. Christmas began about a week before December 25th. Then Christmas began to start at the beginning of December; then after Thanksgiving; then after Halloween. Give it a few years, and it’ll be starting after Independence Day. It still ends for some people in mid summer and lasts all year for others (Christmas trees and lights hanging out outside their homes). As far as America and materialism and total misappropriation of priorities, this nation is ripe for harvest.

    As for revival, the churches are generally too compromised to allow or hold revival. I don’t know exactly how God feels about the complete spiritual poverty and bankruptcy of this nation, but few seem to be benefiting from it. When things get this dark, reformation (both for redemption and for destruction) becomes inevitable.

  203. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Richard, I really dislike McDonald’s (I prefer Wendy’s), so just lob the money instead of buying the unhappy meal. If I had a Chevy, I wouldn’t mind flying it over as I don’t prefer Chevys either. Lol. Yeah, any ongoing problem becomes wearisome. I’m there.

    Sheeja, I agree about the Name. I just prayed about that yesterday. What may well be my favorite passage in the whole OT is this one: “Yes, in the way of Your judgments we have waited for You. The desire of our soul is for Your Name and for the remembrance of You” (Isa. 26:8). Amen. Since everyone is a Christian today but no one (non-Christians) knows about God by experience, I’d say we need ‘the remembrance of Him’ today.

  204. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    Valley, ‘The early Church got to the new things in quality first. But we’re just going to have a lot more in quantity than they had. For sure.’

    By right place, I mean many are looking to existing churches to be revived, waiting in prayerful expectation. I don’t doubt the early revived Reformers were expecting Rome to get a lightning bolt from on high, but it didn’t happen. Luther almost certainly expected a reformed Rome. What we got was outside the church of Rome, and, despite man’s best efforts otherwise, continues that way, given that the Church of England is, by it’s own description, a Reformed Roman Church.

    Everybody was looking in the wrong place!

    Valley, i can’t tell you where to look, that is a matter of personal revelation. I can say, if you eagerly desire what the Lord desires for you, it is already close by you, and waiting for you.

    An email address for me is towards the end of the previous thread, in a Richard Savage post. Please write me, Valley, much is now happening with the out of church people that can’t yet be published. Don’t want to re-post email address as I’m still unloading buckets of trash from last week.

    ‘When things get this dark, reformation (both for redemption and for destruction) becomes inevitable.’ That’s where we are in my understanding, Valley. Brilliantly put!

  205. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Thanks, Richard. I’ve looked almost everywhere for it. I even glanced in my armpits once or twice. I wasn’t too discouraged to not find it there. In early ’03, after I’d searched high and low for a certain hidden thing, the Lord then directed me to fast so He could revival it, and He did that. Now, after searching for another certain thing, the Lord has recently told me to pray for it. I believe as He uncovered the first time, He will unveil this time also as it’s apparently about timing.

    I’ll grab your email and shoot you one. I’d like to hear what’s happening in the out-of-church. I know too well what’s happening in the institutional churches.

  206. watchful Nov 23rd 2012

    lol! you guys are a hoot! it’s nice to have some humour around here once in a while! Richard, since you live in the wilds, did ya ever think about getting a horse instead of a Chevy ? But in all seriousness, dear Father, I pray for even more of your rest and peace and joy over my brothers, and that you will supply them with what they need and even surprise them with some extra so they can celebrate your goodness to them, thank you Lord for your faithfulness and kindness. (and please for heaven’s sake, give Valley Ant some clean shirts to wear besides the green one, as nice as I’m sure it is) 😉

    Sheeja, i don’t doubt your calling and that there surely is much to learn in studying about His name(s) since they have to do with many aspects of His character, it also has to do with reputation – but please stop and think a minute – what did Jesus call Him?………..I guess that should be ok for us too then because it is written that our spirits will cry out “Abba, Father” as well. Even in one of your quotes above Jesus addresses God as Holy Father. And think of the Lord’s prayer as Jesus taught it, ” our Father”. Possibly I’m missing something, but I’m not really getting your line of pursuit on this..?

    The outward form and appearance of a thing is not so important as the heart of it, this is what I believe. So that knowing His name(s) has to do with knowing (intimately, by experience) different aspects of HIM. I know that He is many things to me, Father, saviour, elder brother, friend, Husband, provider, healer, teacher, comforter, counsellor, protector, etc….and scripture calls Him all these things and more.

  207. Graham Peacock Nov 23rd 2012

    I agree with what Roger, Valley Ant, and Peter H have said.
    If christians and ministers who were frank and honest with themselves for revival to happen in the western and established churches, they would not be able to cope with it all as the leadership will lose power and control of the church system and their members. It would be like the Church of Rome of the past turning against the Reformation due to the same circumstances.
    For revival to happen affecting both christian and non christian, it will be out-of-church because in church the Holy Spirit will be controlled, abused, and the name of Jesus would be used as tool for misuse and the counterfeit allowed to run riot without discernment – in other words, mutton dressed up to be as lamb!
    I have seen this before all done in the name of Jesus and where the signs of revival? Nothing substanciated , as the manifestations soon disappeared after the meetings disbanded and people went home.
    This still happens today as seen on God TV with the Bay of the Holy Spirit revival meetings with a spirit being conjured up for the television audiences and viewers.

  208. Richard Savage Nov 23rd 2012

    Watchful, Valley, God bless you for your light heartedness. It’s wonderful, well off topic, but wonderful none the less. Thank you.

    A hoss, Watchful, belongs on a plate, with horse radish sauce! Often eaten horse meat in Czech and Poland. They tend to be the object of an upper middle class cult here in England, the hunt and Ascot, one knows. Highly colourful, and even spectacular to watch.

    Chevy? well, that would be a new thing for me. Likely to end up with a Czech Skoda, which is VW in a different body. Whatever it is, it will be a blessing, straight from the hands of Father. Our distances here are not as great as in the States, shops six miles away, but no one gives lifts in this rather up market corner of England, apart from me.

    When the blessing arrives I’ll let you know!

  209. When a ‘business’ gets very, very big…it’s called a comglomerite. That’s what our many, many churches could be called today….Every doctrine good and/or bad has driven them forward. Because people are not perfect, churches, nor home groups will be perfect. In our walk with Him, we stumple, we obey, we grow. Staying close to the Lord is Vital.

    After Christ was crucified and resurrected, none of His followerers referred to His earthly name of just ‘Jesus’ again…It was Deity, “Jesus Christ”, “The Christ,” ” Our Lord (of Hosts”, “Lord of Glory”, etc, etc). After the resurrection non of the Apostiles called Him just Jesus, when referring to their Lord and Master.

    From my, dear Penticostal pastor long ago, I learned an important asset: If it’s mentioned once in the Bible, take note. If it’s mentioned twice 2. take heed. If it’s mentioned three 3 times, Do it.

  210. Teshuva Nov 23rd 2012

    If I am baptized in the name of Yeshua, then I am baptized into His character, which is lowly and meek, therefore when I go to the Father to make a petition, then I ask in the lowly and meek character and spirit of Messiah. This He made me to understand of Him giving grace to the humble and resists the proud. Most of the time, I do not even apply the words, in the name of Yeshua after praying, because I should be in that Name/character and therefore I call God Father.
    From my scripture reading, it always seemed that Yeshua pointed to the Father.
    Even as I write this, I understand that the Father is in the Holy of Holies and only the spirit can enter the Holy of Holies, not the flesh, and why we are to worship in spirit and truth.

  211. New Jerusalem Nov 23rd 2012

    EXACTLY! Teshuva

    That is exactly what ALL of the names of God refer to.

    Every name that God revealed to His people in the OT and the NT REVEALED A FACET OF HIS NATURE/CHARACTER to the miniscule minds of human beings.

    When we speak or pray “in the name of ” we are stating that my words or my prayers are “IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CHARACTER OF JESUS CHRIST”.

    That is why we are told by Jesus to pray the Lord’s Prayer and that is why Paul tells us to PRAY ALWAYS IN THE SPIRIT. (which does not mean “tongues” by the way)



  212. New Jerusalem Nov 23rd 2012

    Each time that the Israelites were JUDGED for their idolatry, they were CAST OUT from the Presence of God…which was found in the Tabernacle and the Temple built by man in those times.


    The JUDGMENT OF GOD was according to HIS OWN LAWS that were given to the Israelites.
    In other words, they were not ignorant. They had been WARNED…..BUT they did NOT BELIEVE GOD WOULD DO SUCH A THING TO HIS CHOSEN ONES.

    According to God’s Law the Judgment would be for a SPECIFIED LENGTH OF TIME.





  213. Today – may we look elsewhere, other than the ‘western world’ for evidence of a Holy Spirit directed and controlled Ekklesia, Body of Christ Jesus…?

    Would the ‘revival’ in China, last century, and the more recent testimonies from ex-muslims throughout Islam countries, together with testimonies from India and African nations, speak of ‘something’ that God is doing…?

    Scripture warns us of persecution (amongst other things) in the end times, just before Lord Jesus physical return to Earth, and we have seen (and are still seeing) what happens when Christians, born-again ones, are persecuted for their belief in, and testimony of, the gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord.

    God takes His people ‘underground’ – where the Holy Spirit is truly – teacher, comforter, counsellor, and directs all to Christ Jesus as Lord and Messiah.

    It isn’t a return to the church of Acts as such – yet when persecution has threatened through the ages – God directs and controls His disciples, those who are born-again in Lord Jesus.

    So, the same as back then, yet, different – due to the conditions that exist at any one time in the world.

    Scripture warns of a future tribulation such as has never been – through the Bible, God warns ahead of time, people choose to take note or reject. European Jews through the early 1900’s were warned of coming persecution, both in the O.T., and by modern Jewish prophets who spoke out. Some heard and fled, most stayed and were slaughtered in what we call the holocaust – and He intervened and stopped the invasion and complete destruction of all Jewish people in the M.E.

    Today, we recognise that God is doing some’thing’, many are leaving religion and religious structures – for what..?

    To be prepared..? many believe so.

    The next question is: “Prepared for what ..?” – I wonder whether those who heed the warnings given are now ready (or being prepared for) the final persecution.

    The signs are there, we have been warned ahead of time. We should look to the future, yet remember the past, and the lessons learned (or at least taught).

    So, is this ‘something’ (new thing), this truly Holy Spirit directed Ekklesia, God’s preparation for the final tribulation and massive persecution..?

    All glory to the One living God, in whom, those who are His may trust completely, knowing that what He has planned will be perfected and accomplished in His time.

    In His love,

  214. ValleyAnt Nov 23rd 2012

    Thanks, Watchful, I miss the jokes and humor thread we used to have in the forum. And yes, Lord: peace, rest and joy and everything else. Watchful, I rarely ever wear the particular green shirt since it’s about seven years old and I want to preserve it. I happen to be wearing another green shirt today, however. Green happens to be my favorite color.

    Graham, you’re right. I went to a church which said a lot about not controlling the Holy Spirit but letting Him lead everything. The same church had everything set up so that the Holy Spirit was so lassoed, corralled, and bound up that they got to dictate when He would move. He isn’t an idiot they can use, but He is kind and of course still ‘comes to church’. Revival means the Lord and the Spirit are free to lead things, and churches can’t have this because there can be no ‘church’ when the Lord takes the lead.

  215. 7 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

    21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

    I want don’t want a new thing, I want to do what Jesus did, lets pray for healing, pray for deliverence, not from afar, get right in there and pray like Jesus did. many christians here and out in the church and a lot more non christians don’t need a new thing, they need Jesus, they need healing, they need to hear there is a better way then by themselves, Jesus’s way, instead we sit and speak how we think God will do a new thing. There is nothing wrong with Gods way

  216. Marilyn Crow Nov 23rd 2012

    I appreciate your comments Joan W, that the early disciples had the revelation of Jesus as deity, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is, I believe the foundation of the early Apostle`s doctrine. As Andrew said `& they continued devoting themselves to the Apostle`s teaching.` This is key to our discussion.

    And we would all agree, I think that unless we have the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, deity, then we can`t build (by the Holy Spirit) individually or corporately as a Body

    We are all growing individually by the Holy Spirit & are at different stages of understanding Christ, His character & His purposes.

    However as the Body of Christ we are being matured to stand for the truths even though individuals haven`t as yet understood.

    We have the Apostle` s teaching in the Word, but those teachings (ie. the different aspects of the whole teaching) were eroded but then are being gradually restored to the Body. A study of the different movements through out history show that restoration of Truth by the Holy Spirit. (Older denominational names generally indicated the truth revealed to them.)

    Thus if we look at the early Apostle`s teaching, or parts thereof, & compare that with what has been restored to the Body by the Holy Spirit, we will see the truth/s yet to be revealed & the blockages, Traveller was talking about.

  217. No formula or agenda can replace the Spirit of God. Getting to know what will and is happening in the End Times can easly be read in the Word of God. There is no other god but He who created the world but He himself who is the Lord God Almighty. Satan may be an angelic being but the Lord Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son.
    It is the Holy Ghost which convicts and makes God’s presence known.
    When people mock God Almighty – beware! When religion claims that all leads to God Almighty – stay clear! When cults declare that the Lord Jesus is the archangel Michael or Satan is the brother of Jesus Christ – they have no dealings with God: they preach another gospel! When national governments tell you that they do not need to repent – they will face judgement. When the western church turns its back on Him and His commandments – it will end up in turmoil, divided, and in disarray; beware what follows. When His people fail to listen to Him who is giving warning in the Last Days – they will pay the consequences.
    The Lord knows who are His. The Bridegroom will soon wed His Bride. Have you accepted to be there for the biggest wedding that will be ever be seen? – for invitations have been sent out. Are you ready to answer the call of coming Home to be with the Lord? – when He personally makes that call. Are you washed in the Blood of the Lamb – or just playing a game called religion?
    The Lord God Almighty knows whose names are writeen in the Lambs Book of Life – is your name written on one of its pages?
    The countdown has begun and the mid night hour approaches. Soon that trumpet call will be sounded. Will you respond?
    So if you so dearly wish for a Holy Ghost revival, are you prepared for the cost it entails? For it requires REPENTANCE, your response and committment, to take the gospel into the world, to lay down your life for the Lord Jesus Christ, and be ready for the world to persecute you because you follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
    For anything else is religion, self centred, and counterfeit. For the Body of Christ means what it is – no other church establishment, church system, and church organisations can replace it.
    Hallelujah and Praise be to Almighty God, our Heavenly Father who is our Creator!

  218. Jas – you have summed up what is upon my heart and conviction. Thank you Andrew for being allowed to participate on this web site.
    Revival will come at a price and I am sorry to have to say the western church is not prepared for it nor does the church open its doors for the Lord Jesus to come in. At the moment He is knocking on its doors and asking to come in but they do not know or recognise Him with a request of Him showing His passport for admittance. It is no wonder He remains on the doorstep and will visit those who respond to His gentle voice.
    This is nothing “new” or thrown in as of something “new.” The Lord Jesus has been waiting for some time in knocking on peoples’ hearts, especially the christian church whose hearts have grown cold and whose doors are being locked for whatever reasons.

  219. New Jerusalem Nov 24th 2012

    God does not wait/tarry for anyone. Look it up in scripture.

    God has a TIMELINE in the age of TIME. It was designed before Time began; before Creation.

    If people are not following Him, they are not in the narrow way of His TIMELINE.

    His Plan waits for NO ONE. You either get on board or get left at the station.

  220. Sheeja John Nov 24th 2012

    There is a shaking and a sifting taking place. Make sure your election and calling.
    I am not teaching, I am pointing to the TRUTH. Make sure that you have the truth. For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.
    The temple of God, the altar and and those who worship there will be measured.

    Yeshua said,
    – “And I (Yeshua) will pray the Father (Yehovah), and He (Yehovah) will give you another Helper (Holy Spirit), that He (Holy Spirit) may abide with you forever. – John 14:16
    – But the HELPER, the Holy Spirit, whom the FATHER will send in MY NAME, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. – John 14:26

  221. ValleyAnt Nov 24th 2012

    God’s dealings apparently have much to do with timing. I’m sure there are times when revival could’ve broken out but the Lord forbade it (as the Spirit prevented Paul several times from promoting the work in certain areas) as the timing wasn’t right. In any case, we are all waiting for this thing that’s old but that will be new to our time: “Lord, I have heard of Your fame, and I stand in awe of Your deeds. RENEW them in OUR day, and in OUR time make them known” (Hab. 3). Amen. And Lord, amen.

  222. Marilyn Crow Nov 24th 2012

    Jas – It is not a formulea or an agenda to look at the work of the Holy Spirit over the years, if that is what you are referring to in my comments.

    When I was young in the `50`s & `60`s there was a move of God through all denominations & the Body of Christ generally, to receive the Holy Spirit. That was a move of God`s Holy Spirit restoring a truth (which is outworked in experience), that was not previously understood or received.

    Then in the `80`s & `90`s the prophetic ministry was accepted across the Body (with many that are false). That was a work of the Holy Spirit.

    Then lately the 5 fold ministries, especially the Apostle & Prophet, is being accepted across the Body. (Though many think this ministry is a CEO of an organisation) This is the work of the Holy Spirit. Many have written in this discussion of false teachers, prophets, Apostles. This shows the work of the Holy Spirit in response to this revelation. We are using discernment to tell the difference between the true Apostles & Prophets etc & the false ones. This is a wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

    You, Jas wrote alot of good comments on this part which I appreciate.

    And now the Holy Spirit in the 21st century is carrying on His work of restoring truths which effect our lives, attitudes & ability to discern.

    The great truths the Holy Spirit has restored to the Body of Christ which many gave their life to stand for over the centuries are –

    Christ the Saviour, Baptiser, Giver of Gifts,
    Ministry Gifts of Christ, (5 fold ministry)

    And finally the truth that is yet to be worked through in the Lord is the knowledge of Christ`s Time & Eternal Purposes. That is why we are all sharing on direction. Where the Body of Christ is going, what is happening. Are we connected to the nations, Israel? All direction.

  223. Graham Peacock Nov 24th 2012

    The “in thing” to bring christians into the 21st century has become a worrying matter for all, especially when legislation is fast forward and fast tracked to appease modern thought and practices.
    See this link as an example http://www.christian.org.uk/news/government-in-panic-over-plans-to-rush-gay-marriage-law/?e231112
    See also this link when christians are expelled because they dare to be different
    There is an hidden agenda to bring in a one world system without people knowing and that includes the shenanigans taking place which I think Jas was commenting about, and as an example is what is taking place behind the scenes of the ruling body of the General Synod of the Anglican Church where it recently rejected women Bishops and now the British Primeminister wants the decision overruled and reversed as with many clergymen of the CoE saying likewise. And to do this have called those on the General Synod to step down and elections to take place so that the serving members can be replaced.
    This is being done to bring the Anglican Church into the 21st century, whereby the Word of God is considered obsolete as well as the Bible to include biblical beliefs and practices.
    Notice how the government is behind and supporting change together with religion who want christianity to be updated for the 21st century.
    So please be warned, take heed, and be aware. For surley the Body of Christ will face the onslaught of persecution in the End Times. And what is disturbing, is how the modern western church will take the lead to bring christianity into the 21st century replacing Truth with error and disgarding biblical teaching and practices for religion.

  224. watchful Nov 24th 2012

    Valley and Richard, sorry I’m coming back late to the conversation, but just to say there is something in making light of our light and momentary afflictions which are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all! There is something in filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ, something also in carrying intercession in our lives for the sake of others, as well as our own being disciplined as sons and the crucifying of our flesh – all in God’s loving hands according to His manifold wisdom. And it’s good to know we are not alone. Bless you.

    2Cr 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

    2Cr 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

    2Cr 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

  225. Sheeja John Nov 24th 2012

    It is good to keep one’s eyes and ears open, and to discern the signs of time; but do not fix your gaze there, then you will get distracted and will be overcome with fear. Rather, fix you gaze on the Lord, the God of our salvation. And you must not be terrified, for all these things must come to pass.
    – Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. – Luke 21:28
    – You build yourselves up in the most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.’ – Jude: 20-21
    – For whatever is born of God over comes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. – 1 John 5:4-5
    Remember the warning..
    – For many are called but few are chosen. – Matthew 22:14

    – Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ. – 2 Thess. 3:5

  226. watchful Nov 24th 2012

    Amen, so true, New Jerusalem, while we are not given the day and the hour, we are called to know the time and the season. The Pharisees did not recognize the time of their visitation, so they missed the train.
    The same thing happening at the end of this age, since it was written for our ensample. oh Lord grant us ears to hear and eyes to see, because who has will be given more.

  227. watchful Nov 24th 2012

    Amen, Sheeja, fixing our eyes on what is unseen. Love what is says about the patience of Christ! Reminds me of where in Revelation it talks about keeping the word of His patience…the bible has a lot to say about patience.

  228. AGazette Nov 24th 2012

    Sheeja John wrote: There is a shaking and a sifting taking place. Make sure your election and calling.
    I am not teaching, I am pointing to the TRUTH. Make sure that you have the truth. For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.
    The temple of God, the altar and and those who worship there will be measured.

    This is very good here.

    I also thought of in the OT they offered up strange fire on the altar.

    Many churches today are offering God strange fire. This is another reason why we should examine ourselves to make our election and calling sure.

    Its also the hour that we should pray that “God will account us worthy to escape all these things coming upon the earth”.

  229. Here is something to consider.

    When the beast of Revelation 13 is revealed, the scriptures tell us that the whole world will worship him, (meditate on that and realize the magnitude of this truth) ALL except those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    The day is coming when there will be a complete separation between the children of God and the children of the devil.

    Revelation 13:7-8

    “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Matthew 13:37-40

    “He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.”

    There really is nothing ‘new’ under the sun, what God is doing and what He’s going to do has already been foretold in scripture, we just need to keep in step with the Spirit and allow Him to guide us into all truth and understanding of the inspired scriptures and the will of God.

  230. May I give you a living example of what happened to me very recently. I’ve prayed, beseathed God with a lifelong problem, my youngest daughter and her disobediant attitude most of her life. She had moved in with my husband of fifty + years, and her two teenage daughters. We were having a discussion ( calm) about ‘her’ slothful habits (the floor was her closet) and ‘me, myself, and I’ attitudes’. Out of five children, her rebellion (which I always recognized) was not what was sinking her.

    I approached her with a non threatening comment (Martha) of her sloppyness and of not co-operating with the rest of her family, She’s 45. She tried to change the subject directed at her brother. I asked her to answer my question, not change the subject. She hopped up, gathered her ‘subjects’ and left.

    After all these years, it took that ‘confrontation’ to show what The Lord was trying to show me. I was so hurt by her reaction, I grieved for her. She was ‘blaming’ me (anyone) for all her troubles. But then, God let me know that’s how non-believers, and logger heads (me) affect Him. He has given His all for us, and we don’t receive and build on it. Now I know how to pray for her. He loves us so.

  231. New Jerusalem Nov 24th 2012

    Amen JoanW……God is Good and His Love Never Fails.

    Much of our “not receiving” is rooted in UNBELIEF.

    We use that “tree of knowledge of good and evil” mind of ours to JUDGE what is GOOD.

    When we decide what is GOOD and what is NOT GOOD for us and others, we miss the mark.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD when Abraham set off to KILL HIS SON on the altar to the True God? This is what the PAGANS did in their religious rituals!

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for Moses to return to Egypt, who wanted him killed.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for Mary to be an unwed mother.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for Isaiah to run around naked and barefoot for 3 years.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for 1-2 million men, women, children, and animals to go into a desert where there is no water.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for Stephen to be stoned to death in front of Saul.

    For who would have judged it to be GOOD for Jesus Christ, King of Israel, to die and leave.

    God did not give us a mind to “figure things out” with, for as you can see, we are always wrong when we use our minds. We must have the MIND OF CHRIST within to unfold the truth to us in Light, Love, and Perfection.

    God gave us a mind to communicate with Him. To hear and understand what He tells us….His ways, His deepest desires, His Love for us, His plans for us, His Laws, His thoughts toward us.

    Its called an intimate relationship…..One with Him. John 17.

  232. Marilyn Crow Nov 24th 2012

    Joan W.
    I felt & prayed for you & your daughter, Joan. How difficult & very painful.Thank you for sharing.

  233. Thank you New Jerusalem and Marilyn. Well said dear and faithful brother, and so appreciated. It was put up to the Lord and He answered so soft and careingly. I didn’t know whether to grateful to Him, or His aswer after so long. Him, of course. His timing is always perfect…somehow (through mind clutter, I wasn’t hearing Him. She can’t take correction. No one can ‘correct’ her personally without her running awayfrom it. Oh, yes, Marilyn, Thank you for your needed prayer. Bless you, dearest Sister in Christ. He is eternally New, Fresh and Perfect.

  234. New Jerusalem Nov 24th 2012

    Father, we bring Joan’s daughter before Your throne to ask that You baptize her in Your Light, Let there be Light completely saturating her spirit and her soul and her body.
    We ask that You baptize her in Your Truth, Your Way, and Your Holy Spirit for the sake of Your Kingdom and for the sake of Your Son Jesus.

    Father we thank You for all the wonderful transformation you have done in Joan by the Power of Your Holy Spirit and the Power of Your Love. We ask that You complete Your work in Joan’s soul and fill her with Your GLORY!!!


    We (Father and I) love you, Joan W.

  235. ValleyAnt Nov 25th 2012

    Watchful, amen. And it’s not easy for me to say that to any light or momentary afflictions.

  236. Oh, New Jersualem, Thank your for that beautiful heart felt breathing prayer . By faith and love, I recieve those binding words. And I agree, It shall be done. Bless you.

  237. Sheeja John Nov 25th 2012

    This is a strong word from the Lord to the Body of Christ…..

    – ‘Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name saying, ‘I am He’, and ‘The time has drawn near.’ DO NOT GO AFTER THEM.’
    The true servants of God will never point anybody to themselves but to ‘Yeshua Ha Mashiach’. and THEY WILL NEVER ASK YOU TO FOLLOW THEM, BUT YESHUA HA MASHIACH. Even the the Holy Spirit will not point to Himself but Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

    Do not look for apostles, prophets, pastors and teachers, but look to Yeshua. Yeshua baptizes His children with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth. Even Elijah’s mission, who is sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord as prophesied in Malachi 4:5-6, is only to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. (To reveal the fathers (i.e. Yeshua and apostles) heart and their teaching to the children and point the children to the ‘truth’ as taught by the fathers)

  238. Living in the UK, the political and religious systems are going from bad to worse.
    Christian celebrities and celebrities from film, pop, and the fashion industries have joined the chorus of demanding that the Equality Act be applied in bringing female bishops into the Anglican Church and are already their demands have been recorded in articles in the press, on tv, and radio. The aim is bring the church into the 21st century and to modernise the Bible to accomodate the female gender.
    See this http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/cartoon/2012/nov/23/women-bishops-ways-out-of-mess-cartoon
    Even the former Archbishop of Canterbury has joined the onslaught and for the General Synod to reverse its decision
    See this
    The next step will the the acceptance of homosexuality in the western church followed by more change and alterations to suit wordly pursuits and practices.
    May I suggest that the overall picture of the modern western christian church does no longer fulfill the purpose of preaching sound biblical doctrine and does not reflect the Truth regarding the Word of God. Repentance is a forgotten word and it is altering the church to suit the whims of the 21st century.
    As believers in the Body of Christ, do we remain in a church which is corrupt, greedy, and bears no resemblance to that of the New Testament Church as described in the Bible.
    I would therefore suggest that we “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” 2 Corinthians 6:17.
    Otherwise christianity will further fall into disrepute, turmoil, being tossed from pillar to post, having lost its way regarding TRUTH and what is error, and of course those from within will eventually turn on believers who walk with the Lord Jesus who do not follow any other person and doctrines of demons.
    Are these the Last Days or a figment of our imaginations?
    Kindly comment as I am new to this site.

  239. AGazette Nov 25th 2012

    It’s sad to see the worldly crowd telling Christians what they should and should not do.

    What is even sadder is that those who call themselves Christians are willingly bowing the knee to the demands of the world.

    I think we are seeing the Great falling away of many who say they follow the Bible.

    I cannot imagine a minister telling people to join in with these groups just so you can tell someone your going somewhere to church, when in reality those who set in these groups are going nowhere but drying up on the vine.

    Yes, these are the last days.

    Lord Bless

  240. Richard Savage Nov 25th 2012

    Ian: “….do we remain in a church which is corrupt, greedy, and bears no resemblance to that of the New Testament Church as described in the Bible.”

    Ian, no one may tell you to come out of a church! I certainly would not, although I left the mainstream churches twenty years ago. This is a matter between you and the Lord Jesus. He may wish you to remain as a witness to Him in a corrupt church. He may have other plans for you. I don’t know …

    Seek the Lord on this matter, while He may be found. Seek Him in earnest, anguished prayer. In forty five years as a Christian I’ve never known Him fail, even if we do sometimes ask the wrong things.

    Whatever happens, please write us here.

    Last Days? Can they be anything else, if, that is, we take our Bible seriously; if we’re not gulled into thinking this is just a blip in time, and all will be well shortly.

    It never is well shortly, change always comes; it certainly won’t be well this time because too many other factors are coming into play as well described in the Bible. This is without doubt, the birth pangs.

  241. zeal4thyhouse Nov 25th 2012

    you are correct.
    This is what God’s Word says;

    2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
    Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

    Be blessed

  242. zeal4thyhouse Nov 25th 2012

    These people professed to be Christians, born of the Spirit..

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie…

    They say they are Christians, but are not.

    Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    Come out from among them!

  243. Richard Savage Nov 25th 2012

    Zeal: ‘Come out from among them!’

    We may not put ourselves in the Lord’s place and tell people do such things. It is not for us! That is for the Son of God. He has his purposes for each one of us, and He will communicate those purposes to us.

    Let’s be careful of the things of God, and we are some of the things of God.

  244. watchful Nov 25th 2012

    Praying for your situations, Valley Ant, Richard and Joan, and I add my amen to N.J.’s prayer…

  245. ValleyAnt Nov 25th 2012

    Watchful, thanks for your prayers. And AJH, you too.

  246. zeal4thyhouse Nov 25th 2012

    if the Lord says it in His Word, surely it is not necessary for Him to say it again.

    We don’t have to hear it again. It has been commanded.

    God Bless

  247. zeal4thyhouse Nov 25th 2012

    Come out from among them!

  248. Richard Savage Nov 25th 2012

    Zeal, let us not assume that every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God for is for every man all of the time. He, and He alone, chooses what will be brought to our attention, in this way He speaks to each of us according to or need or situation.

    Wisdom, God given, in handling the Word of God, is of paramount importance. Cavalier attitudes towards the Word are so evident in modern churches and may account for why Ian feels he wants out.

    But even so, it is between him and the Lord God, not you and I.

  249. Ian,
    I saw a TV news clip ( in NZ) the other day, which showing weeping and wailing amongst female clergy in the C.of E. – seemingly, their desire to be female bishops had been rejected, or are we mssing a part of the picture here..?


    Zeal4thyhouse and Richard, my brothers in Christ Jesus 🙂
    I believe you are both right in what you say, yet that agreement has been lost in the www, as often happens.


    This is my understanding and experience: Indeed scripture does call us to ‘come out from among them’, those whom profess to be of God by mouth, yet their actions and fruit demonstrate the reverse.

    We know that when we are spiritually regenerated, born-again from above, we enter into the Body of Christ Jesus, His Ekklesia, or ‘called out ones’.

    I see this as a spiritual ‘calling out’ absolutely, yet there may be occasions, even a length of time, when Lord Jesus desires us to physically remain among those who are not yet His ones. In those situations, He will confirm through the Holy Spirit where we should be – this for His purposes and plans, as He chooses to use His disciples for His work.

    When the denominational churches compromise the teachings of Lord Jesus, with the teachings of the world, they become apostate – we, who are His, no longer ‘belong’ there spiritually, even if He calls us to be there physically – for a time.

    Those apostate ones, have returned to the ‘world’, and we also know that we who abide in Lord Jesus – are ‘physically’ in the world but not ‘spiritually’ a part of it. Those who have fallen away, need Lord Jesus as Saviour as much as any, were they ever truly ‘born-again’..?

    In His love,

  250. Richard Savage Nov 25th 2012

    In speaking of a new thing, for that is what it is to those freshly coming out from among them, let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    Let’s not forget the great men and women of God who have gone before us; the Wesley’s, Spurgeons, Whitefields, Wigglesworths and so many more Godly people before them.

    A personal relationship with Christ Jesus doesn’t begin with us; we are but a continuation of so much that went before. We are the inheritors their experience of Christ, their knowledge of Him. We would do well to learn from them and, if generations after us are to come, pass on this knowledge of God.

    Does not the Lord of Glory Himself say in Matthew 13:52, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

    The mantle of the self revelation of God to man sits on our shoulders today. It is our duty before a Holy God, to pass it on to others.

    Now, in our day, that sentiment could be thought of as a new thing.


  251. AGazette Nov 25th 2012

    I think if you reread Ian’s comment he is not asking if he should come out from among them but he is stressing for others to come out from among them.

    Correct me If I am misreading this.

    I agree with Richard in part, we can not tell others what God’s will is for that individual. We can only share what the Bible says on a matter.

    Remember the wheat and the tares, God says leave them along and let them grow together then at the end of the age the harvesters will bind the tares up to be burned.

    Granted what Zeal shared was right also because we are called to preach the word holding back nothing.

    From this everyone must make their own decision on the matter or it becomes a situation where a person is following what we say rather then having it in their heart from the Lord.

    We cannot make ten laws that people will follow, making them think this is what pleases God.

    In other words, were to preach the word and let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    Lord Bless!

  252. Richard,
    I believe you are right, if I have not misunderstood..?

    Even though I believed in the existence of God, when I was first told that Christ Jesus was indeed Lord and the only way to God – that was a ‘new thing’.

    Today – I am still growing in Him- when I receive a truth concerning God, yes, that too is a ‘new thing’.

    You speak of people through the ages, and I would add some who are still alive – who have all contributed to my understanding, as led by the Holy Spirit.

    Iron sharpening iron, as we shared our experiences and understandings concerning Lord Jesus.

    As one friend describes it – “the collective wisdom of Christ Jesus”. This, revealed through the Holy Spirit, either directly, or through the writings in scripture and others books.

    As we receive, so we are to give, to share, with others – concerning this personal relationship, and experiential testimony, that we each have with Christ Jesus as Lord of our life.

    This, to me, is the true fellowship with other members within the Body, the Ekklesia, of Lord Jesus.

    I believe that as we each ‘live’ Christ Jesus as Lord – that too is a testimony to those who do not yet know Him, so we are sharing Him with both other believers, and non-believers.

    Abiding in Him, and extremely thankful to be there..

  253. Jesus said,

    “Upon this Rock I will build my Church”…

    The Rock was Peter’s confession of who He was…

    “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”…

    Flesh and blood did not reveal this to Peter but Jesus’ Father in heaven…

    When the Father in heaven reveals to us who Jesus is then we have fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ and we also have fellowship with the Holy Spirit and with each and every other child of God (our brothers and sisters) who Jesus has saved with His Own Blood…

    Whose Son is the Christ?

    “For David himself says in the book of Psalms, ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’ “Therefore David calls Him ‘Lord,’ and how is He his son?” (Luke 20:41-44 NASB)

    Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; (Hebrews 10:5 NASB)

    Once we see that Jesus is God – the Son of the Living God – in a human body then we see that He is Lord and the Christ – the Anointed One – and we bow to His Lordship…

    Once we (after the Father reveals this to us) see that this is who He is we give ourselves to Him in submission and faith – we repent and believe in His Gospel…

    If this confession, or Thomas’, “My Lord and My God” has not happened for us in the Presence of Jesus then we are not saved…

    There can be nothing built unless Christ Jesus is the Foundation…

    The Apostles and Prophets are said to be the foundation but under them is Christ Jesus Himself…

    No one can lay any other foundation,

    For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11 NASB)

    Without a revelation of who Christ Jesus is, namely our Lord and our God, there can be nothing new under the sun…

    If those are involved in the Church who have not had this revelation of who Jesus is from the Father then we (who have) are never going to be united with them…

    The unity we have is based (or built) on this – this revelation (this knowledge, this deep knowledge in our spirits – we just “know that we know that we know”)…

    If this is not here we have nothing to build on…

    We should be building with those who have this revelation – we cannot build with those who do not…

    Can two walk together, except they be agreed? (Amos 3:3 KJV)

    Love in the Lord,


  254. Sheeja John Nov 26th 2012

    AGazette stated, ‘we’re to preach the word and let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.’

    Absolutely true. We declare what God wants us to declare. We do as God directs us to do. How each responds to it, is their personal choice. Reading Ian’s comments makes it clear that he is aware that the church is apostate, and it is obvious that he knows what to do. He needs courage and strength to take the decision and stand by it. And as he seek God, God will guide him and strengthen him.

  255. ValleyAnt Nov 26th 2012

    “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” Amen.

  256. Sheeja John Nov 26th 2012

    Andrew J Horton stated, ‘The Apostles and Prophets are said to be the foundation but under them is Christ Jesus Himself…’
    ‘We should be building with those who have this revelation – we cannot build with those who do not…’

    You’re right! ‘But how many times do you want to lay the foundation? Moreover, there is a time for everything under the sun. Do you discern the signs of the time? The times are different.

    And you are not building anything, but witnessing. Yeshua said, “I will build my Church”. Period. And you cannot make anybody a ‘Christian’. Peter said, ‘For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as THE LORD OUR GOD WILL CALL. (Acts 2:39) It is YAHWEH who calls and it Him who saves. And the LORD ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:47) We are just witnesses.

    To go a little further, it is not the babes who become part of the temple of God, but the ones who are mature, the tested and tried ones. The living stones of the temple of God are hewn outside as was the stones of the temple built by Solomon. (1 King 6:7). And, it is under the leadership and guidance of the Holy Spirit that the Body of Christ is sent forth to harvest.
    Our reward will depend on what we did with what was given to us. (The Parable of Talents)

  257. Sheeja John said: “..To go a little further, it is not the babes who become part of the temple of God, but the ones who are mature, the tested and tried ones…

    I may have misunderstood you here Sheeja..? are you saying that ‘babes in Christ’ are not members of His body..?

    Surely all those who are spiritually regenerated, born-again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are equal members of Christ Jesus Body, His ekklesia – ‘living stones’ in the Temple that He is buiding.

    Yes we all have different gifts, administrations and operations, divided to every member, as the Holy Spirit will – but all are ‘living stones’, all members of His body.

    1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
    1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
    1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
    1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

  258. Sheeja John Nov 26th 2012

    Do you remember the warning, ‘For many are called but few are chosen.’ And the statement, ‘And every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;’ The gift of the Holy Spirit was given to us to grow and bear fruit; to grow in the image and knowledge of Yeshua Ha Mashiach. And we are given a time frame to bear that fruit (Luke 13:6-9) We are called to be good stewards of what was/is entrusted to our care, and if we fail, we are cut off, unless we repent and bear fruits in keeping with repentance.
    Yeshua said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church he builds. What does it convey? He chooses the tested, tried and approved ones to become part of the living stone of God’s temple.

  259. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    Amen, Sheeja, to your last 2 comments.

    It is quite obvious in scripture that all who are saved are NOT EQUAL in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    1Jo 2:13 NASB – I am writing to you, FATHERS, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, YOUNG MEN, because you have overcome[3528] the evil one. I have written to you, CHILDREN, because you know the Father.

    1Jo 2:14 NASB – I have written to you, FATHERS, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, YOUNG MEN, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have OVERCOME[3528] THE EVIL ONE.

    1Jo 4:4 NASB – You are from God, LITTLE CHILDREN, and have OVERCOME[3528] them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

    Rev 2:7 NASB – ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who OVERCOMES[3528], I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

    Rev 2:11 NASB – ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who
    OVERCOMES[3528] will not be hurt by the second death.’

    Rev 2:17 NASB – ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who OVERCOMES[3528], to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

    Rev 3:5 NASB – ‘He who OVERCOMES[3528] will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    Rev 3:12 NASB – ‘He who OVERCOMES[3528], I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

    Rev 3:21 NASB – ‘He who OVERCOMES[3528], I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame[3528] and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    Rev 21:7 NASB – “He who OVERCOMES[3528] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

  260. When the government of Britain is at the helm of allowing homosexuality and same sex marriages for the sake of bringing the nation into the 21st century, then something is wrong with morality and the government claims that the UK is a christian nation.
    See this link
    When those in leadership say that the nation does not need to repent before God Almighty and that includes those in leadership in the church, then they mock the Lord God Almighty. Judgement soon follows and this can be seen with the storms hitting the UK with a vengance. See this
    When the European Union dismisses that it does not need God to control its destiny, those in authority are putting up two fingers at our Creator. That too results in judgement. Just look at the turmoil and what is happening to the EU and its membership countries.
    Is this not similar in the USA when politicians and church leadership declare from the front “God bless America” where they do the opposite in the sight of Almighty God allowing greed, corruptness, self centredness, and immorality to rule the nation. Just look at recently the result of Hurricane Sandy which brethren believe is the part of the Judgement of God because repentance has become a byword.
    And yet there is more to come as nations and the church believe the notion that God no longers brings judgement with an excuse that we live under grace whether it comes from mankind or God.
    I beg to differ!
    God is not doing something “new” – it is because we have not done it in the first place.
    The Bible is our example of how we should live. It is a manuel for living. Without Him, our Creator, the world would have destroyed itself long ago. But the Lord Jesus Christ is our Redeemer and our Salvation. Praise the Lord – my Redeemer liveth!

  261. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    Grace is a GIFT of God to the FAITHFUL…..NOT THE UNFAITHFUL. It does not matter whether you are born again or not, IT MATTERS IF YOU ARE FAITHFUL.



    Jhn 5:14 NASB – Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.”

    Jhn 5:14 NASB – Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.”

    Hbr 10:26 NASB – For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    Rom 5:20 NASB – The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

    Rom 6:14 NASB – For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    Rom 6:18 NASB – and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

    Rom 6:22 NASB – But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

    The word INIQUITY refers to the sin nature in mankind…the flesh; the soul;

    The word SIN refers to the thoughts, desires, actions of a man/woman.

    ANYTHING that is short of the GLORY OF GOD is sin.

  262. Sheejah, which takes us back to my previous question – are those who do not bear fruit in keeping with repentance, truly ‘born-again’, indwelt by the Holy Spirit..?

    NJ, with your reference to verses on overcoming, you seem to give the impression that ‘overcomers’ are at a different level to ordinary ‘born-again’ ones..?

    May I please refer to you the context in this passage, and verse 4 and 5:

    1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    I read, and discern, nothing here to suggest that overcomers are a special breed of Holy Spirit indwelt Christian. However, I do read that those who accept, and believe, that Jesus is the Son of God have overcome the world – now that ‘act’ of overcoming will require repentance, as well as the revelation, acceptance and belief that Christ Jesus is Lord of all, and the only Messiah of Almighty God.


    To both of you, I hope that I have misunderstood what you are saying here, or implying…? which seems to be that there are levels of unequal Christian, starting with a ‘babe’, working through ‘mature’ to ‘overcomers’…?

    Yet in each stage, surely the key words are “..in Christ Jesus” – whether a “babe in Christ Jesus”, or an “overcomer in Christ Jesus”.

    We are nothing unless we are “In Him” – and this is where my focus will be – not at which level different ones are, but whether all who profess to be Christians are truly ‘born-again, Holy Spirit indwelt, and abiding IN Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

    I read Pauls corrective teaching in 1 Cor.12, where he explains the Body of Christ Jesus our Lord, that all those who are ‘In Him’ are members, (vv.14-27) and that He is the Head – and I do not see any form of ‘elitism’ here, quite the opposite.

    In His love,

  263. NJ, you have stated that: “..Grace is a GIFT of God to the FAITHFUL…..NOT THE UNFAITHFUL. It does not matter whether you are born again or not, IT MATTERS IF YOU ARE FAITHFUL….”

    Another misunderstanding…?

    I believe it does matter whether you are ‘born-again’, spiritually regenerated, by the Holy Spirit..

  264. Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

  265. I care not to enter into these insights of interpreting scripture. One thing I would like to point out is the ‘elitism’ part. The world has many ‘elite’. The scripture uses the word “elect” for His special ones. His “Elect” are importent, very much so.

  266. Amen Roger to your comments permalinked below… 🙂


    There is no elitism in the Lord – we are all members of one another…

    It is this understanding which makes unity possible…

    Elitism is the enemy of unity…

    Love in the Lord,


  267. Amen Roger to your last four comments… 🙂

    There is no elitism in the Lord – we are all members of one another…

    It is this understanding which makes unity possible…

    Elitism is the enemy of unity…

    Love in the Lord,


  268. Joan – you are right, scripture does indeed use the word elect.

    However, when we read all of scripture, concerning ‘elect’, do we see that these are a special group…?

    In scriptural context, I find that ‘His elect’ refers to living members of the Body of Christ (those who are alive at at one time through history).

    For clarification, may I ask how others see these ones..?

  269. I can’t follow of half you say, Roger. I think I’ve lost you in your very astute reasoning of the Word. I’ll try to keep up. Bless you.

  270. How we perceive who is ” chosen ” or “elect ” has no sway over what is written in the Lambs book of life, nor does anything we say on our own behalf or on behalf of another have any sway over what is revealed when the book of life is opened.

    We will never find any lasting security or peace through our own mind , nor will we be free of doubt.

    For the peace that surpasses understanding comes from His spirit within us, and it is only Him who makes the final judgment in all these matters .

    To be free of condemnation and to walk in the peace that comes from Him is to overcome the fears and worries of this world.

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

  271. My apologies Joan 🙂 and thankyou for sharing that..

    I don’t read in scripture that the ‘elect’ in Christ Jesus, are a special group of ‘born-again’ members of His Body.

    I read in 1 Cor.12:14-27, Pauls teaching that those who are born-again, are all members of the Body of Christ Jesus.

    Yes, we each have differing gifts and callings, as He has differing tasks for each one of us – yet no one member should see him/her self as above any other member of Christs Body.

    Lord Jesus Himself will raise up apostles, prophets, teachers, and so on – He does this for His sake, for His glory, that He might accomplish His plans.

    Should anyone boast that he/she is above other Christians – because he/she is more mature (for instance), then he/she denies the teaching of Lord Jesus.

    1Co 12:14-27 For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    I believe that Christians who are truly ‘born-again’ by the Holy Spirit, and who submit to the Lordship of Christ Jesus – are members of His Body and abide in Him, – they are ‘In Christ Jesus’ – whether we be babes’ or ‘mature’ in our personal relationship with Him.

    As Andrew J.H. has said – there is no ‘elitism’ in Christ Jesus.

    In His love,

  272. I am in agreement with my brothers Roger and Kevin… 🙂

  273. Kevin – thankyou for that truth 🙂

  274. I can relate to that. Thank you, Roger. I do know my gift. It is ‘discerning of spirits. You can’t teach the Lord’s gifts. I saw on Sid Roth’s program a man that said he’d been to a school for ‘discerning of spirits’. I almost dropped my teeth (and I do have them).

    Now maybe discernment is teachable, I don’t know. They are not the same…not once is it mentioned in the Bible (in relation to discerning of spirits. DoS is an awesome gift, and I’m so grateful He gave me what I needed to navigate through this disceptive world..

  275. To Joan W

    Discernment is a gift of God. Do not allow yourself to be drawn into attending a church class to obtain this. The last church I went to wanted me to attend lessons on how to become and eventually becoming a prophet for this particular church. The lessons were not free but one had to pay a fee to attend. Unscriptural, and who wants to pay a prophet to become a prophet!!!!!!!!!!!!

  276. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    Really? You do not see the different levels of MATURITY and different positions of AUTHORITY when the scriptures talk about the Kingdom of Heaven?

    You are saying that a “father” in the Kingdom of Heaven is going to have the same POSITION as a “babe” in the Kingdom of Heaven?

    Then what would be the point of DIFFERENT REWARDS for EACH INDIVIDUAL?

    My comment about being born again means this:

    JUST because your are born again does NOT give you CARTE BLANCHE to EVERYTHING IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. The bible says this in so many places.

    Luk 14:7 KJV – And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the CHIEF rooms; saying unto them,

    Luk 14:8 KJV – When thou art bidden of any [man] to a wedding, sit not down in the HIGHEST room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

    Luk 14:9 KJV – And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the LOWEST room.

    Luk 14:10 KJV – But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the LOWEST room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up HIGHER: THEN SHALT THOU HAVE WORSHIP IN THE PRESENCE OF THEM THAT SIT AT MEAT WITH THEE.

    Luk 14:11 KJV – For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    1Cr 3:12 KJV – Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    1Cr 3:13 KJV – Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
    1Cr 3:14 KJV – If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1Cr 3:15 KJV – If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    1Cr 3:16 KJV – Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1Cr 3:17 KJV – If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

    Mat 20:20 KJV – Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping [him], and desiring a certain thing of him.

    Mat 20:21 KJV – And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

    Mat 20:22 KJV – But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

    Mat 20:23 KJV – And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

    Mat 25:1 KJV – Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    Mat 25:2 KJV – And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

    Mat 25:10 KJV – And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

    Mat 25:11 KJV – Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

    Mat 25:12 KJV – But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    Mat 25:33 KJV – And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

  277. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    Many are CALLED few are CHOSEN and the ELECT


    Scripture states that the CHOSEN and the ELECT are referring to those who are FAITHFUL and God has CHOSEN or ELECTED them to be the BEARERS OF SALVATION to the world.

    Such as: Abraham….to be a BLESSING TO ALL THE NATIONS

    Such as: Mary …..to BEAR THE BABY JESUS.

    Such as: Jesus…..the BEARER OF SALVATION

    Such as: John the Baptist; the whole blood line of Abraham; the Apostles; and ALL WHO ARE FAITHFUL.

    Those who believe in being THE ELITE, teach that SOME people are superior to others because God chose them to RECEIVE SALVATION and didn’t choose others.

    This is a lie from hell. The FAITHFUL were CHOSEN TO BE THE BEARERS OF SALVATION.


  278. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    To BEAR something means “to carry” in the scriptures.

    When we are told to “bear” one another’s burdens, we carry that burden to God in our prayers.

    When the FAITHFUL are chosen, they carry SALVATION to the world.

    God does the choosing….ALWAYS.

    God chooses who receives His Gifts of the Spirit and God chooses who Bears Salvation to the world.

    Salvation was GIVEN TO ALL THE WORLD…ALL of creation.

    Jhn 3:17 KJV – For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED

    sōzō “might be saved”

    1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

    a) one (from injury or peril)

    1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

    1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

    b) to save in the technical biblical sense

    1) negatively

    a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

    b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

  279. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012

    Excellent advice Ian……paying for the Gifts of God sounds like Catholicism and some of the people in the NT who “copied” Jesus and the Disciples and did miracles and exorcisms for money.

  280. Richard Savage Nov 26th 2012

    NJ … a word, if I may.

    In my forty five years as a born again Christian, a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, I’ve several times heard teaching such as you espouse above, teaching about supremacy, elitism and ones especially chosen, doctrines cobbled together from the Bible; and I’ve witnessed the rapid retractions and contradictions when the speaker is quietly challenged by a Godly man speaking in the Holy Spirit.

    It has been an enormous privilege to literally sit at the feet of some Godly men, to live under their ministry. Such men do not speak of elitism, nor live it. Their closeness to Christ is seen in their humility, not pedantry; submission not supremacy.

    The most effective pastor I’ve ever know was the least in his flock; he believed in the NT examples of primus inter pares, first among equals, and he lived it out before us, daily. Not for him the arrogances of ministry, a contradiction if ever there was one. No, a quiet life of humility before a Holy God and service to any and all who called upon him. He lived and breathed his Saviour, Jesus. He walked in the Holy Spirit.

    There, for me, is the example of Christian life; he who would be first shall be last … no supremacy, or contradictions, there.

    I’ll go with Him, ruach ha kodesh, the very breath of God. It’s highly recommended.

  281. New Jerusalem Nov 26th 2012


    Thank you for your comment.

    I don’t see a difference between what I am saying and those who believe in the 5 fold ministry.

    Are ALL chosen to be an Apostle, a Prophet, etc?

    NO. Only SOME. We are not to be ALL Prophets, or ALL Apostles.

    Do you think God organizes His Kingdom on the earth
    DIFFERENTLY than His Kingdom in Heaven?

    I do not see that being told in scripture.

    Luk 12:41 KJV – Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

    Luk 12:42 KJV – And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?

    Luk 12:43 KJV – Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    Luk 12:44 KJV – Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

    Luk 12:45 KJV – But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

    Luk 12:46 KJV – The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    Luk 12:47 KJV – And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

    Luk 12:48 KJV – But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    It is true that by the witness of the Holy Spirit you can be quite secure in your salvation and destination in the hereafter, BUT there will be a LOT of SURPRISES as to what positions people will have in the Kingdom of Heaven!

    ALL are not equal in Heaven. Would you think that you or I would be equal in Heaven to the 12 Apostles? To Moses? To Abraham? To Joseph? to Paul? to John?
    Have you EQUAL FAITH to them and been TRIED IN THE FIRE EQUALLY TO THEM?

  282. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
    Romans 12:3 NASB

  283. New Jerusalem Nov 27th 2012

    IS GOD DOING A NEW THING? New to this generation….nothing different to/from/ for God.

    “Ugandan president repents of personal, national sins”
    by Michael CarlEmail | Archive

    Michael Carl is a veteran journalist with overseas military experience and experience as a political consultant. He also has two Master’s Degrees, is a bi-vocational pastor and lives with his family in the Northeast United States.

    Should a president lead citizens in a national prayer of repentance?

    Uganda’s Christian president believes so.
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    The Ugandan newssite New Vision reports President Yoweri Museveni celebrated Uganda’s 50th anniversary of independence from Britain at the National Jubilee Prayers event by publicly repenting of his personal sin and the sins of the nation.

    “I stand here today to close the evil past, and especially in the last 50 years of our national leadership history and at the threshold of a new dispensation in the life of this nation. I stand here on my own behalf and on behalf of my predecessors to repent. We ask for your forgiveness,” Museveni prayed.

    “We confess these sins, which have greatly hampered our national cohesion and delayed our political, social and economic transformation. We confess sins of idolatry and witchcraft which are rampant in our land. We confess sins of shedding innocent blood, sins of political hypocrisy, dishonesty, intrigue and betrayal,” Museveni said.

    “Forgive us of sins of pride, tribalism and sectarianism; sins of laziness, indifference and irresponsibility; sins of corruption and bribery that have eroded our national resources; sins of sexual immorality, drunkenness and debauchery; sins of unforgiveness, bitterness, hatred and revenge; sins of injustice, oppression and exploitation; sins of rebellion, insubordination, strife and conflict,” Museveni prayed.

    Next, the president dedicated Uganda to God.

    “We want to dedicate this nation to you so that you will be our God and guide. We want Uganda to be known as a nation that fears God and as a nation whose foundations are firmly rooted in righteousness and justice to fulfill what the Bible says in Psalm 33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. A people you have chosen as your own,” Museveni prayed.

    Uganda won its independence from Britain Oct. 8, 1962. Resistance leader Milton Obote was the country’s first prime minister.

    Massachusetts pastor and activist Rev. Scott Lively believes Museveni is a model for other national leaders.

    “The Museveni prayer is a model for all Christian leaders in the world. The leaders of the West have declined in proportion to their degree of rejection of God,” Lively said.

    Lively also believes Uganda will rise as a major African power as America continues to decline. He uses Britain as an example.

    “Britain was at its height as a world power when it honored God as the Ugandan president has just done. America’s greatness has similarly diminished as we have shifted from a Christian to a secular-humanist country. But watch now for Uganda to be blessed by God for their desire to be His,” Lively said.

    Lively added that Museveni is definitely drawing a contrast between Uganda and the West.

    “This incident is also important as a contrast to the picture being painted of Uganda by the godless left of a backwards, violent and savage culture intent on murdering homosexuals,” Lively said.

    “On the contrary, Museveni is calmly and confidently setting the course of his nation by the guidance of the Bible, in a way that also shows great courage and resolve,” Lively said.

    Homosexual activist groups have criticized the government of Uganda and Museveni for passing laws criminalizing homosexual behavior. A current bill before the Ugandan Parliament increases the jail sentences for homosexual acts and includes criminal penalties for those who encourage or promote homosexuality.

    The bill had included the death penalty for those who commit multiple acts of homosexual behavior, but the provision has been removed, BBC News reports.

    The government of Uganda could not be reached for comment on this story.

    Lively said he didn’t agree with the death penalty provision but supports the nation’s strong stance against homosexual behavior.

    While Museveni is being held as a model for Christian leaders, Dave Daubenmire, PT Salt Ministries’ president and founder and social commentator, said the problem for Western nations goes deeper than the political leaders.

    The problem in the United States, he said, is the pastors.

    “Sadly, I think our lack of repentance is the fault of the pulpit. Individual Christians are so awash in sin that they think politicians are merely better at sin than they are,” Daubenmire said.

    “There is no fear of the Lord and we are getting essentially a two-kingdom message. We hear that the devil is the god of this world and that Jesus will even the score later,” Daubenmire said. “The problem is that most Christians are convinced that Satan is free from God’s sovereign control in this world and therefore are not interested in applying the kingdom principles for which Christ died.”

    Daubenmire quoted Matthew 28:18, in which Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

    Christians, Daubenmire said, are exhorted later in the same chapter to go and make DISCIPLES of all nations.

    “We are to teach them and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” he said. “All power in heaven and in earth belongs to Jesus. Unfortunately, most Christians don’t have the foggiest idea that He rules and reigns here and now, and that the kingdom principles that He taught us bring victory over evil wherever they are applied.”


    “Since we do not hate sin anymore, we don’t demand repentance,” Daubenmire said.

    He quoted British 17th century statesman Edmund Burke, who said, “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

    Daubenmire said that in America, “good men have yielded power to evil men.”

    “Evil rules when evil men make the rules,” he said.

  284. New Jerusalem Nov 27th 2012


    What does thinking highly of yourself….which is ARROGANCE AND PRIDE…. have to do with the way that God has ORGANIZED His Kingdom of Heaven?

    I am talking about HEAVEN…..THE HEREAFTER.

  285. “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? ‘Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ “So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
    As Jesus was about to go up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside by themselves, and on the way He said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
    Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him. And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left.” But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
    Matthew 20:1-28 NASB

  286. New Jerusalem Nov 27th 2012

    It sounds like we are in agreement again AJ.

    How is it possible that you argue with what I state in my comments and quote the scriptures that affirm it?

  287. Andrew Nov 27th 2012

    Elitism is an attitude that is the opposite of true servants of Christ.

    That is not to say there are not “vessels of honour” or elders or apostles in the Body of Christ. There are. But they do not exude any kind of “elite” attitude.

    Bless you all.


  288. Andrew S., and Andrew J.H. – agreed..!!

    To be Christlike, is to be a servant – that is the example that Lord Jesus left us with during His walk on Earth.

  289. Thank you Ian, I don’t go to church anymore. After many years, I stopped going. Now, years later, I can’t see and I can’t ear. I watch special Christian pastors and wear ear tv amplifiers, Works just fine. There is a neat on-line ‘Let Us Reason Ministries’ ‘by’,Mike Oppenheimer. He reminds me of N.J. ,a little. One is always encouraged by strong men/women of God.

  290. watchful Nov 27th 2012

    Simple facts of life, perfectly biblical. Elitism is in one’s own heart.

    1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

  291. Sheeja John Nov 27th 2012

    I was almost finished with my reply to Roger and it got wiped off. So had to rewrite the entire response again.
    Nobody spoke of elites among the ‘born again’. That was your creation. What I spoke, is about attaining maturity. And there are levels of maturity. In the ‘Parable of Soils’, Yeshua said: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. – Matthew 13:23
    Now the quality of the seed and the quantity that was given to each kind of soil in the ‘Parable of Soil’ was the same, yet they differed in how they responded. Remember, each received the same, but some bore fruit and some didn’t; and those who bore fruit, differed in their output: some bore hundredfold, some just sixty and others only thirty.
    Yeshua said, ‘For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.’ – Matthew 13:12 Now what is this that ‘the one having, is given more’? It is understanding. We read Yeshua saying, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” – Matthew 11:25 Who are these ‘babes’? They are the newly born ‘born again’ ones. And they are given revelation. And what are they required to do with the revelation that they received? They are required to make profit. And how are they required to make profit? Apostle Peter states in 2 Peter 1: 5-8, ‘add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ So we are required to labour with what is given us and profit. And if we fail to profit, we are called ‘unprofitable servants’. And what does God do with the unprofitable servant? It is written, ‘And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ – Matthew 25:30 Apostle Peter states of those, who do not profit, saying, ‘But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (1 Peter 1:9) And therefore the ‘born again’ are warned and encouraged saying, ‘Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, YE SHALL NEVER FALL.’ (1 Peter 1:10) And in Hebrews it is beautifully explained, ‘For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.’ – Hebrews 6:7-8

    Concerning rewards….will they differ?
    – ‘And every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. – 1 Cor. 3:8
    – For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that EVERYONE MAY RECEIVE the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HATH DONE, whether it be good or bad. – 2 Cor.5:10
    – And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. – Luke 12:47-48
    Now you might ask, ‘What about the ‘Parable of Labourers’ (Matthew 20:1-16)? Are they not all given one denarius for a day? Absolutely, those who were called 25 years earlier and those who were called just 1 year earlier, both attained the same level of maturity, and therefore were given a denarius, a days wage.

    Roger asked: ‘Sheejah, which takes us back to my previous question – are those who do not bear fruit in keeping with repentance, truly ‘born-again’, indwelt by the Holy Spirit..?

    To put it in another word, ‘Could salvation be los’t?
    – For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. – 2 Peter 2:20-21
    – For it is impossible FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. – Hebrew 6:4-6

  292. Marilyn Crow Nov 27th 2012

    HiJoan, I`ve been reading & keeping up with the discussion. It`s had some interesting turns. And thanks to all for everyone`s input which makes for interesting reading.

    Joan, my husband & I also don`t go to formal meetings but just meet with friends when we can. I`m going to look up that site you said. I appreciate `Discernment Ministries,` & `Kjos Ministries,` which are great for encouragement & discernment.

    All the best – Marilyn

  293. Sheeja John Nov 27th 2012

    Roger said, ‘We are nothing unless we are “In Him” – and this is where my focus will be – not at which level different ones are, but whether all who profess to be Christians are truly ‘born-again, Holy Spirit indwelt, and abiding IN Christ Jesus our risen Lord.’

    Roger, Those born of God will never boast of anything as they know that the very breath that they breathe is a gift of God. The following were and are my confessions:
    – Seeing many mighty men falling into disgrace, I cried to God saying, “I do not want position, name nor fame. I want Your Presence. I will serve those who serve you”. And from then He was in the process of educating me. He broke me, and taught me that when I am weak, then I am strong. He taught me to be a servant and do things for Him joyfully. He taught me what it meant for Christ Jesus to leave the heavenly glory and become a human, being obedient to the point of death on the cross at the hands of His very own creation. (Stated on Nov. 23, 2011 in JBTV site )
    – As per the instruction of Yeshua Ha Mashiach, our Lord and Saviour, we all are brethren and none of us is above the other (Matthew 23:8). (Stated on Nov. 22, 2012 in this very post)

    Roger said: ‘I may have misunderstood you here Sheeja..? are you saying that ‘babes in Christ’ are not members of His body..?

    To which my reply is: Yeshua said, ‘And every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away’. (John15:2) So will they continue to remain in the Body of Christ as members of His Body? I seriously doubt!!
    Richard Savage to NJ: I’ve witnessed the rapid retractions and contradictions when the speaker is quietly challenged by a Godly man speaking in the Holy Spirit.

    Richard Savage, NJ, is growing in the Lord. Please encourage such, who have a zeal to learn, grow and mature.
    Michelle, desiring to see you back.