DO CHRISTIANS LOVE GUNS?? – Andrew Strom

I am writing this because I continue to believe that US Christians are being “driven” toward something very ugly. There is a lot of nasty rhetoric flying around that is the very opposite of Christ-like. Some in America are trying to get the Christians all riled up about not being allowed to own “assault rifles” and the like. But what is so “Christian” about owning guns anyway?

Personally, I neither love nor hate guns. I used to go hunting and
I owned a .22 and a 6.5 Mauser (which kicked like a mule). But
they are long gone. I also have US friends with Glocks and M-16s
and things – fun to do some target shooting with – but I wouldn’t
want to own one. Guns to me are neither to be loved nor hated.
And certainly they are nothing to do with “Christian rights” or
anything of the kind.

Which is why it alarms me to see high-profile believers seemingly
making it a “Christian” issue that everyone should be allowed to
own semi-automatic weapons. Reminds me of the facetious
remark, “Who would Jesus kill?”

We have spoken before about the dangers of mixing Christianity
with “nationalism” – of wrapping the Bible in the flag – and calling
it ‘orthodox’ Christianity. This stuff is not just dangerous – it is
deadly. There have been countless wars and countless millions
killed down the centuries by this very thing. Mixing “patriotism”
with Christianity and using that to motivate people – to get them
riled up and mad enough to go “fight” somebody or riot in the
streets, or whatever. Hitler used just this kind of patriotism to get
himself elected. And I see this very same anger rising amongst
some Christian conservatives in America. You are being “driven”
toward something – and it is very ugly.

Every Christian should know that our home is in heaven – not in
any particular “nation”. Our alliegance is towards GOD’S kingdom,
not any kingdom on this earth. So let me very clearly spell it out-

-Saluting the flag is not a “Christian” activity.
-Singing the national anthem REAL LOUD is not a Christian activity.
-Being armed to the teeth is not a “Christian” activity.
-War-mongering is not a “Christian” activity.
-”Supporting the troops” is not a particularly ‘Christian’ activity.
-Angrily fighting for your taxes is not a “Christian” activity.
-Shouting and getting ‘nasty’ over Politics is not a Christian activity.
-Constantly bad-mouthing the president is not a Christian activity -
whether you agree with him or not.

-In fact a lot of this involves behavior that is totally “anti” Christian.
-And despite being a great political document, the US Constitution
is not a “Christian” document, and therefore fighting and screaming
and name-calling over that document is not a “Christian” activity
either. True Christians do not stand or fall by the US Constitution.
They stand or fall by the actual word of God. And that is the only
piece of writing that they should ever get so stirred up about.

Friends – we have a great mixing of Nationalism and Religion
going on. And it is getting uglier and uglier.

Now, let me ask you some honest questions here. Have you been
guilty of fighting or agitating over these things in the “flesh”? I say,
“REPENT”. And are you guilty of slandering or bad-mouthing the
president of your country in a way that is totally un-Christlike?
Again I say, “REPENT!” There is no excuse for a follower of Jesus
behaving that way.

We are not supposed to be in a “war” over all this stuff. We are
supposed to be focused on ETERNAL things – the only things
worth fighting about. So let us forget these earthly “distractions”
and concentrate on the things that really matter.

As I have said before, it is time to change the channel and turn
OFF the voices of the “agitators” before they get you all riled up
about the next ‘issue’. And it is time to go out and fight for the
gospel and the souls of men – the things that can REALLY make
a difference in the nation. Politics can never bring about the ‘heart’
change that is so desperately needed. Revival is what America
truly needs! So let us fight for that – and leave the ungodly to fight
for their “guns” and their “rights”. We are of a different kingdom.
My friends, let us not forget it.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this article below-

Blessings! – Andrew Strom ( [email protected] )

Posted in Articles by Andrew on January 17th, 2013 at 12:52 pm.

347 comments

347 Replies

  1. Michael Jan 17th 2013

    Excellent!!!!

  2. goodwordtoday Jan 17th 2013

    My questions are these, Andrew — Should America have stayed out of WWII because it is not Christian to go to war even if it will save nations and the entire people of God from genocide? Is there ever a time to use politics to get something good done – like fight against abortion rights which are considered a political issue to many? When revival doesn’t come, do we let the country go to hell in a handbag? Do YOU see revival happening? We’ve been praying for revival for years and years and years and the country just keeps getting worse. Are political means of fighting against tyranny our Ishmael?

    And I do have a request. Could you please pick on another nation for a while. Let us lick our wounds for a little bit. Why don’t you hammer Australians, the British, New Zealanders or some Europeans for a change.

  3. Andrew Jan 17th 2013

    LOL – yes America gets a lot of attention

    And that is because she is the world leader – and everything she does flows down to everyone else

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  4. The question of “bad mouthing” or “sladering” (a malicious false accusation) the President. The President professes to be a Christian. The Bible says while we are not to judge those outside the church, we are to judge those inside and not even eat with such a person. ( 1 Cor, 5) He celebrates baby killing, homosexual marriage, not working, et al. Didn’t Paul rebuke Peter for being a hypocrite. Didn’t Paul warn loudly about certain men and called others WOLVES in sheep clothes. Didn’t Jesus flip tables in Church? Call men Vipers? Tombs? We gotta read the whole book.

  5. Eric Swensson Jan 17th 2013

    I would not dream of commenting on the politics or culture of New Zealand. How is it you know so much about what is “gripping Christians in America”?

  6. Michael Jan 17th 2013

    America also sets the morals of most nations aka Hollywood. As for WW2 Jesus said ‘IF’ His kingdom were of this world His followers would pick up swords. But His true followers are not we are of a heavenly kingdom. Not earthly, fleshly rather spiritually what we cannot see. Our warfare is in the spirit not in mans efforts as Barrabas tried and failed I might add.

  7. Andrew Jan 17th 2013

    I see the daggers are out already.

    Oh well!

    Bless you all,

    Andrew

  8. Michael Jan 17th 2013

    I would say his analyis is pretty accruate. America is desending rapidly into hedonism and debauchery. Our self-indulgence is alive and well even in Christianity.

  9. I think lethargic Christians are the reason why things have gotten this bad. Christ in you should be changing and impacting our communities and nations. But people like you will reason away the principles of a free society and subject it to bondage again. I am glad you won’t be standing by me in the fight for the principles of the Kingdom of God. I am pretty sure David would not want you on one of his campaigns as well. Stick to NZ politics please.

  10. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, Brother!!!

    The dollar-note should have “In God we DON´T trust” written on it…It would fit most of American Chistianity better…sadly.

  11. Danny Richardson Jan 17th 2013

    Boy are you right??? NOT !!! I wish David would have offered Goliath something to eat and fellowship instead of taking him out with a slingshot and then removing his head with a sword. Israel was wrong when it went into Canaan and destroyed man, woman, and child like they were commanded to do. Didnt they know Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever. Feeding your enemy has its limits. Andrew, I cant believe how ignorant you are toward scripture concerning love, war, peace, etc. And One other thing–When Jesus comes again he is obviously very ticked at the world because he comes as a violent, vigilant force to punish the wicked–not with an assault rifle but with a sword, nevertheless a WEAPON. Andrew, you are of British descent and you cant get over the fact that we Americans kicked your butt in two wars and rescued you from two more. YOu are just another one of those self righteous biggots who seriously mishandles scripture to bolster your weak premises.

  12. My husband and I do not and will not own a gun, nor would not want to kill anyone.. HOWEVER, WHO WOULD NOT DEFEND THEIR LITTLE CHILDREN?? We are grandparents, and if necessary, we would lay down our lives for these little ones and fight in the Name of the Lord of Hosts to the death for them!!

    What kind of Christian would not fight for their own, or others? And the horror that was done in most of the countries AFTER the guns were taken away….horror upon horror…to infants and to adults, women raped, horrific torture, and we sit back in our armchairs and pontificate!

    We never did a thing while babies have been slaughtered in the womb to defend them. Is God pleased? I THINK NOT! Oh, we depended our our wicked leaders in Congress to do the intervention while the babies were slaughtered….70+million since Roe v Wade and 4000 a day added. NO ONE HAD THE GUTS TO STAND AND STOP THESE MURDER MACHINES!! Oh, but we sat in our armchairs pontificating while they suffered and died. How disgusting! So RELIGIOUS AND PIOUS!! Lets keep it all clean and neat and not get involved! Lets look like good little Saints.

    Was it not Zebulin and Napthali who went out and risked their lives on the heights of the field to war against Sisera whole the rest of the tribes of Israel (cowards) sat by the seashore and sang happy religious songs and thought good thoughts?? Was God happy? NO!! Sounds like a lot of Christians today and I wonder if at judgment God will say “well done?”

    We are in a war and He is the Captain of the Hosts and we battle in the Spirit and then we go forth to defend, protect and aid….not ourselves but others whose lives are precious!!

    May God forgive our ignorance in thinking we should not defend others to the death IF NEED BE!! May we “love NOT OUR LIVES EVEN UNTO THE DEATH…in fighting for the innocent.

    AMERICANS! KEEP YOUR GUNS AND BE AT THE READY!! PRAYING AT ALL TIMES IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.

  13. Ejimanze Jan 17th 2013

    Wow! I can hear John the Baptist on his TV! Only this one is not clothed in a garment of camel’s hair and munching locusts and wild honey.

    Imagine, here I am in Abuja, Nigeria, striving and contending for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, pressing on against principalities and powers to win Christ and to come up unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, and my brother and sister Christians in the US are fighting to keep their fingers on the trigger of an assault rifle! To blow up whoever stands in their way in the world, I guess. Haba!

    You have made the point, Bro Andrew: let him who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches.

  14. Yesterday God asked me to take a Bible and desecrate it as His people in America have desecrated the gospel: http://weeping-jeremiahs.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-american-patriots-gospel.html

  15. Praise The LORD Andrew
    You are correct! Jeremiah was alive after Jerusalem was destroyed. The Judgement of GOD is upon all the Nations of the Earth. Let none of His Children stand in the way of His Judgement, but let us pray as Habakkuk Prayed…Hab 3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

    Read Jeremiah 25:15-38
    People Need to Repent for the Murder in their hearts!
    Shalom
    No Turning Back!

  16. madeline cornett Jan 17th 2013

    your words will make one sit up and take notice
    most of us in the united state do not own or want to own a gun
    BUT TODAY
    WE ARE SOME WHAT RAW
    as we see some of our freedoms being taken away
    ESPECIALLY IN THE AREA OF CHRISTIANY
    perhaps this has made us
    SOMEWHAT
    (gun shy)
    no guns here-but i do now have a alarm system]why because some one broke the door of my home and took things that belonged to me
    madeline cornett

  17. Solomon Said: Opionions have no ending and they take up precious time. His father owned a sling shot, Hitler deceived a whole nation and not over night. We know who stopped it, My deceased dad fought in the Battle of the Bulge. Million dollar mouths and opionions, will not stop the aggression, They depend on the United States of America, We are still Number ONE, I don’t speak German and Thanks To The Warriors on David’s Team!!!!!!!!

  18. Oh Danny and Joice. How sad to read your comments. You have strayed from true Christianity. Andrew is perfectly right about War, Violence etc. Danny, if want to live like Israel in times of the law, then go and get circumcised, keep all the 613 mosaic laws. Good luck! We live under the new covenant, the Sermon on the Mount is our NEW LAW, it is the law of the spirit. If you don´t stick to that, you don´t have the spirit. Period. The only truly importat question in all this is: Did Jesus really mean what he said (except in passages which can clearly be identified as symbolic)? If no, throw your bibles out the window. If yes, then answer these questions:

    How can I LOVE MY ENEMIES, if I shoot them with a gun? (And, by the way, why didn´t Jesus kill his enemies or the apostles or ANYONE in the NT???)
    How can I TURN THE OTHER CHEEK when I even after one blow pull out my gun to kill the evildoer instead?

    38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    [...]
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

  19. Ejimanze Jan 17th 2013

    The Islamist Boko Haram sect in Nigeria makes no bones of their jihad against Christians and have been blowing up churches and Christians where-ever they can hit them. What would American Christians advise their brethren in Nigeria to do? Go blow the brains of them ‘bastards’ out!?

    The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. Carnal Christians fight to lose with carnal weapons. Spiritual Christians fight and win with spiritual weapons. We need mighty men (and women) of valor in America, and every nation, who know how to wield the sword of the Spirit, and not just sling an assault rifle.

    This is more so as the Night is far spent, and the Day of the Lord is at hand, and the Spirit of the Lord is in the Land calling for valiant men and women who can stand in the gap, and by the force of spiritual arms cause the Will of the Father to be done and the Kingdom of God to be established in the Earth in this new dawn.

    The Most High demands that His children grow up, and quit ye like men!

  20. ps: please don´t waste so much time watching Alex Jones…Read your bibles and act accordingly. Violence is antiChristian.

  21. Wow, it didn’t take long for some of us Christians in America to get self defensive did it? We’ve had this marriage of God and country here for a very long time and we seem very unwilling to see that God has His own country- a heavenly one. Christians here have a hard time seeing what the true gospel is because we’ve latched on to this political earthly version and believed it for so long. It’s very sad. Someone needed to say it, and you did. Thank you Andrew.

  22. Andrew, As an American Christian I agree with you. There is no reason for an ordinary citizen, least of all a Christian to own an assault rifle. We have bowed at the alter of nationalism and are living by the mosaic law rather than the law of the Spirit if God as outlined in the Sermon on the Mount, That is our “Law” for today. Are we going to trust God or not.

  23. Dear Andrew,

    I just read your email and came directly to reply without reading the other responses above… Please forgive me if I start out with a poke :-)

    I’m not sure why I am wasting my time to replying to you, because it seems your liberal mindset is fixed. Gun Control is not a Spiritual issue, so why do you make it one?. I am a proud gun owner, former Army officer, and I know and love Jesus. To slam a Christian and tell them to repent because of their correct and right views on Gun Control and the awful entity we have as President is divisive and wrong. The truth is always attacked by a multiplicity of lies. If Jesus told His disciples to arm themselves to defend themselves—well I take that to heart.

    Jesus said, before he was going to leave this earthly realm in Luke 22:36: “But know if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; AND if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” The sword was the best weapon the apostles could use to defend themselves (we don’t uses swords today because we have guns)—the world is perhaps a lot worse now than it was then, though we do enjoy a “freedom from fear” in most free countries…

    Ask yourself, why did Jesus tell them this?

    There is a ton of rhetoric raging across the internet—a rational examination of both sides leads me to see ignorance of those who are anti-gun. I think it is condescending, even prideful to say—I don’t love or hate guns—really… So we should be indiscriminate about everything? Hmmm…

    Sometimes the Spirit of Christ ministering through bothers and sisters in Christ really have to jar a person to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior; in like fashion, perhaps people have to be jarred in their views what “infringement” of our 2nd Amendment rights means.

    I understand your underlying point that Jesus is our life and ALL else pales. Perhaps this fledgling paper will clarify by point: http://bhartmann.org/papers/reconciliation.html

    Resting in Him as He works through us. 2Chr 7:14

  24. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    The real point here is the difference between Christianity and Politics. Can we not be both Christian and Patriots? God commanded to not murder, but also commanded to kill in certain situations. As a patriot, I should defend my rights as an American. As a Christian I should “Practice Righteousness”. Why do you all think we have to choose one or the other. The Constitution for the United States, 2nd Amendment is not to keep guns for hunting, but to keep control against a tyrannical controlling government (that desires to eliminate all Christian rights). So… as a Christian, should I fight to keep my Christian rights by political means? Yes. The only way to control a tyrannical government is to be willing to take a gun in hand and use it if it becomes necessary.

  25. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    To take a gun in hand and use it if it becomes necessary is, after all, the way this nation began in the first place. If we are to be pacifists then this nation would never have been.

  26. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Unfortunately, this whole thread is going to become a political argument rather than Christian. Andrew, I actually wish you had never brought up the subject. Gun control is not a Christian issue.

  27. There is so much backward and wrong about what you are saying here, Andrew. Again, to you anti-American sympathizers, where do you see that as being Christlike? Why Andrew, is it sin to obey the laws in this land and speak truth to power? You claim that it is sin to criticize the president and sin to support the troops who are ordered by the president? It is sin to tell the truth about the agenda of this communist in the white house, but it is a sin to love our country? Anti-Americanism is NOT Christian! I have heard it slip from the mouths of many of these anti-American preachers, like Paul Washer and the guy at the Judah’s lion site, make the claim that we would be better off as a communist country. It’s one thing to warn Christians that their love for country may deceive them into idolatry, trusting the constitution, rather than Christ, but these guys have gone over the cliff with what does have truth to it! FYI Barack Obama was NOT elected KING of the United States, this government is NOT a dictatorship, but a representative republic. I as a Christian may speak the truth about the sheriff in this town as freely as I speak of the President in the White House! It is NOT a sin to love your country, our loyalty’s should be to Christ and his Kingdom. Anti-Americanism is NOT of the spirit of Christ any more than American Idolatry is!

  28. Andrew, you hit the nail on the head on this one as usual, and I agree with your views 100%. I dare say the reactions so far received from many American Christians show the politicizing of American christianity is clearly a deeper and wider problem than your write-up suggests, and the gun issue wouldn’t have been such a big problem for our American brethren if it wasn’t for the political angle to it.

    I am Nigerian, so why should I be worried about what American Christians do or believe? It’s because when America sneezes, the rest of the world catches cold, and political Christians are the ones whom the anti-Christ will use to gain full control over the world when he comes. Indeed, no Christian in the world can feign insulation from American Christendom when the world media broadcasts all these happenings to the rest of the world real-time. Before you know it, half-witted Nigerian pastors will begin to rend the airwaves with how every Nigerian Christian should go arm themselves with AK-47s against Boko Haram jihadists, and hell will get unleashed on the West African sub-region!

    May God bring true Word and prayer revival to the world and steer us away from political christianity.

  29. DonaldN,
    Very well said, that this nation would have never been—because of the lack of pacifism, I believe the gospel has been spread from this country the most!

  30. I am an American, but recognize no human authority. One can not alter Gods will by casting a vote, or going to war; regardless of our intent. All of this is pointless noise. Gods will SHALL be done, and our human efforts to change things or to “fix” things is futile. Our only hope is to seek out God…..nothing else matters.

  31. Jean Clink Jan 17th 2013

    The point is that when a Hitler or Stalin takes over, first thing, they disarm the people.

    Many people in the US are distrustful of a President who makes so many ‘executive orders’, by-passing the Constitution and whose followers call abortion protestors ‘terrorists’.

    An individual looking for a ‘turkey shoot’ goes to a place that sports a sign saying, “Guns not allowed on this premises.”

    Personally, I lean toward the Anabaptists, but I am not a pacifist. If I see a person mowing down a classroom of six-year-olds, I would put a gun to his head if at all possible.

  32. Marlene Jan 17th 2013

    It’s apparent Andrew has riled a lot of people with his statements. I guess that is no surprise. I would like to address several issues I see brewing. First one is his criticizing the United States.Yes, it smarts when an outsider criticizes but that does negate any truth in what they say. As we all know sometimes an outsider has a clearer vantage point then from within. I am an American who loves my country but I am not blind to it’s flaws. Every country has problems. America is no different. This country of mine is considered a world leader so all eyes are constantly on it. Consequently opinions will come from every directions. Do you think Andrew is the only one criticizing us? He’s just the only one with enough nerve to lovingly speak his mind. That said, we as Christ followers should not get nasty in our responses. If we do then we should check ourselves. As the old adage goes…the truth hurts. I do agree that America is not declining by herself. European nations are sinking just as well and just as fast if not faster. It seems to me that Andrew has a better pulse on the US than many of its own Christian citizens. Yes, there is an ugly air of political strategies being manipulated to stand for Christ. I saw vicious reactions before and after the election by so called people of God. It’s sad and it is not Christly like the man said. Politics has it’s place of course and owning guns is not a sin in my book. People need to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have no issue with gun ownership. I think it’s ridiculous to think making a few stupid laws will stop criminals and the mentally insane. It’s the hearts of men that need to be changed and laws won’t do that. Jesus can though but the world doesn’t want Jesus. Yes, we need laws but this gun issue should not be a priority for true believers. Buy your guns and don’t worry about it. Buy them legally if you can but if you can’t…oh well…do what you have to do but don’t get all fired up over it. God is still in control, remember that. To be honest I didn’t read where Andrew said not to own guns or use them if you have to. He didn’t say that. I am an American and I see the disturbing trend of political manipulation and mindless rhetorical lies that have people convinced of nonsense. Andrew is right, belittling the president in vicious ways is not godly. We should pray for our president’s change of heart, that the Lord move in the political arena and raise up godly men and women to take leadership positions. God uses anyone He wants. He used Pharaoh and other heathen kings in the Bible to attain His will in matters. God is sovereign, omnipotent and can turn anyone or any situation around…even President Obama. Pray for the man and his family that they should know the Lord Jesus Christ in a real way. Like many professed so called Christians he doesn’t have a clue about real relationship with Christ. America needs prayer and repentance not political debates. Social means will not solve what ails this land either. The Body of Christ can do their political thing at the polls and within reason but our battles are not fought in the political or social arena. We should not be acting uncomely and ranting and raving about our politics like the unsaved world AND we need to stop justifying our pitiful unchristlike behavior!

    One last thing, to Andrew, it is my assessment that the people in the United states are being deliberately manipulated. Our country is being divided for a reason…a political and spiritual agenda is at foot. Ugliness abounds in the form of elitism, racism, immorality and religious manipulation. The people are blind. They think they are being godly but they are puppets on a string of some diabolical plan they have no clue about. God forgive and help us all. This plan is global in proportions but the US is the major target because as you wrote we have been the global standard. Just my opinion.

  33. Thanks, Andrew. Great article and very true.

  34. hisservant Jan 17th 2013

    Praise Yahshua! Perhaps someone could explain to me why the early Christians never resisted their persecutors, Why Jesus rebuked Peter for the only instance of armed resistance in the New Testament. Our weapons are not carnal, but spiritual. The Jesus of the bible did not resist nor call upon His followers to do so. Those who defend the shedding of blood know another Jesus.
    Hisservant rich

  35. Norma Auge Dowling Jan 17th 2013

    I have to differ with you on Christians and Guns. I do not confuse my Christianity with Patriotism. But I believe God calls people to arms at times to defend those unable to defend themselves from evil governments and criminals. We have freedom today because God called ordinary men to stand against tyranny, with guns. Many believers made the ultimate sacrifice for the protection and freedom of others, and they will have their reward for it in heaven. They are no less a Christian than you are, just the call on their life differs from yours… My bible says that the last shall be first and first last in God’s kingdom. God just doesn’t look at things the way we do….

    I am a relative of a man named Wilhelm Auge. He was the 38th person Hitler’s Regime put into the very first concentration camp in Oranienburg, Germany. Hitler revamped an abandoned beer warehouse to begin his reign of terror. Wilhelm was a German citizen, his only crime was being in an opposing political party to Hitlers and trying to warn his countrymen of the evil about to be unleashed upon them. In 1933, 100,000 German citizens were incarcerated with no charges, unable to defend themselves in any way, because the German common man had been disarmed after WWI. When the families saw their loved ones taken away, never to be seen or heard from again, it wasn’t long before they learned an important lesson. They learned silence was the only way to survive.

    In 1933 Hitler managed to get something called the Enabling Act passed, very much like the portion of our NDAA Law which allows for the arrest and incarceration without charges of U.S. citizens who have not committed any crimes but are suspected of being subversive against the Federal Government and having possible terrorist ties. (It is interesting to note that anyone who is a Tea Party Member, or who has a concealed carry license, or who is of an opposing view to the Obama Regime is listed with Homeland Security as being a possible terrorist..) The NDAA law allows for indefinate detention with no due process of law while stripping them of all rights as citizens from the moment of arrest.

    Maybe you can turn your face away from what will happen when Obama begins to use this law, along with the Executive Orders that give him total control over everyone and everything in this whole nation, but I can’t ( It’s not my call to do nothing). The Executive Orders ( I lost count at 149) give the Federal Government, known as the STATE to right take any private property, any private business, anyones bank account, and gives total control over all food and water resources in the nation to Obama. And all Obama has to say is the STATE has need of this.

    This is the same STATE that through Obamacare instructs the panels how to implement the medical system. They have been instructed to make sure that the individual with a medical need is of enough value to the STATE to warrant the cost of the medical care. They have been instructed that anyone over 60 must prove their value compared to the cost of treatment. Special needs people of all ages will need to prove their value to the STATE as well to get any medical care. Identifying special needs people is left up to the disgression of the panel. Maybe it is diabetics or cancer patients, or persons with disabilities. People over 70 will be given pain meds and instructed in making the right choice for the good of the STATE. However, illegal aliens will get all their medical needs met. Most of America is blind to these facts, but those who know are preparing to defend those who don’t have the foggiest idea of what is about to take place. Be thankful for those warriors, it might just be your grandchildren they will protect.

    Hitler also declared an Economic State of Emergency which allowed a form of Marshall Law to come into effect which removed most of the rights of German citizens. It quickly put Hitler into a position of a dictator with total power, so that by the end of 1933 if a person greeted someone without doing the Heil Hitler Salute they were immediately arrested and put into a concentration camp. This was all before the Jews were rounded up, before the less than perfect German citizens were euthanized. Around this same time ethic sterilazation began. Young healthy women were forced to undergo operations to prevent pregnancy, for the good of the STATE… Hitler quickly and effectively got rid of anyone brave enough to resist him… and anyone with any major health issues was euthanized. The rest of the takeover was easy.

    Obama is working very hard to print and give away to our enemies money that is backed by air. The more he spends the quicker the value of the dollar goes down. Keep in mind how Hitler used the economic state of Germany to gain total control. When Obama decides it is time, He too intends to declare an Economic State of Emergency and Marshall Law. When he does, every one of his Executive Orders will automatically become law without having to get them approved by the House and Senate, thanks to a bill the House passed in late 2012. He will be King. if no one rises up to stop him.

    I have heard several people say Obama is just Gods judgment against America for the evil her ways. They are probably right to a great degree. Does that mean we just sit back and accept Obama as King? I have read that Christians are to obey the laws of the land they live in. That means the Constitution which says we have a right to have and bear arms to prevent tyranny. I also believe there are far more than a few righteous men and women in this nation who have the right, through the blood of Jesus and his righteousness, to have prayed for this nation to turn back to righteousness and by faith have received it and await God’s move. I think God is about to use warriors to do that….

    If I had time, I could write endless testimonies of how God used mighty men of valor to remove evil from a land. I expect Him to do so now as well in this nation. If we are in the Seals, the second Seal takes peace from the earth. I think He will rescue and protect a remnant. I firmly believe we are in the end times and I personally think that we are in the first Seal due to the unprecedented overturning of governments worldwide..

    If I’m right, ooops no pre-trib rapture. I’m looking to get out at the last trumpet myself if I am still alive. Do I think times will ever be easy again in America…No, certain things must happen because God said they must, but God will protect and preserve his own that he intends to come back for. Read the Seals and prepare as best you can. Look to Noah and Joseph in Egypt, it was not lack of faith that had them prepare, but it was hearing from God that caused their actions of preparation.( Sorry I kind of got off on a tangent.)

    Wilhelm Auge was used as slave labor to help build the concentration camps…He was alternately starved, tortured, or forced to watch the torture of others as a part of what was called retraining. I think people have a right to know that right now in this nation the U.S. Army has been trained to “retrain” U.S. citizens who object to the government. They have been instructed on how to arrest and detain U.S. citizens in one of the more than 800 empty but fully staffed FEMA camps throughout the U.S..

    I think Wilhelm would have had a pretty good argument against your stand on Christians with guns. Most of the first 100,000 thousand political prisoners died long before the liberation by allied forces. And I am sure most, probably prayed every day for someone to rise up and rescue them. In Sachsenhausen there were hooks high up on the walls of one of the rooms. People were hung from those hooks in various positions watching and hearing the torture of the other people on the other hooks, wondering all the while when it would be their turn. Wilhelm was finally liberated from Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp in 1945. He was a tall man who weighed under 100 pounds when rescued. He was unable to walk and the family never even dreamed he ever would again. He survived a broken man, and never got over what he had seen, and what had been done to him. But he survived because some people with guns rescued him and those still alive with him. Many were strong Christians.

    God says He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. All through the centuries God has used Christian warriors to deliver the oppressed. Many of our military are faithful Christians who would challenge you on what their call in God is. You are a pastor, you probably do spiritual warfare and that is your call. That warfare has been my call as well. But I think you need to read Revelation again. This time Christ comes back as a warrior.

  36. To answer your question, let me give you a resounding NO.
    I would never associate the use and especially the love of guns as Christian. Yes, hunting is acceptable according to the Bible. We are allowed to eat meat and the only way to get the meat is to butcher the animal. I for one don’t like the thought of killing any living being, animal or human. No, I’m not vegetarian, but I try not to think that the meat I like to eat is the result of one of God’s creatures dying.
    As for guns for self-defence. That’s a tough one. I would say no. This is very culture-dependent. In Argentina, we don’t have a culture of owning guns, even though there’s a lot of insecurity (it has been rising steadily in the last twenty years and dramatically in the last five). What we see here is that almost every single time a person tries to defend him/herself in a break-in or an assault, the victim ends up dead and the killer roaming the streets freely. We have a culture for robbers who care nothing about their own lives and don’t give a second thought to killing others if they feel threatened or just out of resentment for the victim’s better standing in life. In my culture, owning and using the gun tends to make the situation worse, not better. And we feel impotent because there is very little justice. Murderers, when caught, serve a very short sentence, if condemned at all, most are free and killing again within a few months.

    So we know what it’s like to feel insecure and unsafe whether inside or outside our houses.

    But that’s not the point. The key issue is, Do we trust the Lord to protect us? I have experienced God’s protection many times. Once I was robbed and God sent an angel to force the thief to throw the stolen mp3 player and I got it back! Couple of weeks ago, an attempted break-in at the beach house I was staying, the burglars couldn’t break in, and they could only steal a laptop (which belonged to an unbeliever, BTW). And I was reminded of Psalm 91.

    And ultimately, have we surrendered our lives and the lives of our loved ones and are we willing to give them up? Because we may be killed in an assault. Read Romans 8… It says the sword and death will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

    I recommend these three posts to rethink the issue. You may not agree with some points the author makes, but they’re really eye-opening and thought-provoking.

    http://parablesblog.blogspot.com.ar/2013/01/the-great-gun-grab.html
    http://parablesblog.blogspot.com.ar/2013/01/gun-ownership-and-mind-of-christ.html
    http://parablesblog.blogspot.com.ar/2013/01/waco-texas-and-weapons-of-our-warfare.html

    Let’s use the weapons in Ephesians 6. The Sword of the Spirit is more effective than any man-made weapon.
    And let’s remember:
    The angel of the Lord encamps
    around those who fear him, and delivers them.

    If we fear the Lord enough, we will not have to fear man.

  37. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    A question for all you pacifist Christians. If you were in that grade school, there was a gun on the table next to you and you heard the screams of people and gunshots. Would you leave that gun on the table and say, “violence is not Christian!” and continue to let dozens be killed?
    The way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun

  38. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Another question for you pacifists. If you did take that gun in hand and stand up and shoot the maniac, do you believe you would be in violation of God’s will for your actions?

  39. Marlene Jan 17th 2013

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It’s how you express that opinion that shows people what’s in your heart. I think there are times for war and violence and unfortunately a need to defend human rights and safety. In Ecclesiastes 3 Solomon stated that very thing. Everything in it’s time. There is a time to fight..and shoot if need be. My problem is why is this such a hotbed topic now? We as followers of Christ have got to learn to live out a godly lifestyle in a sin ridden world keeping our faith front and center. What is happening is that things are out of balance. Politics and so called patriotism has become the forerunner. We are categorizing people by partisan descriptions instead of biblical standards.We have to be realistic but also Christlike. It’s a difficult mix and most people are failing to make it.

  40. I agree with you 100%, but I’m afraid you’re in for an avalanche of email every bit as big as the one you got for “Tea Party” (I tried to post this earlier, after #9, but was suddenly swamped out)

  41. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    hisservant—
    Perhaps you should read Luke 22:35 and Eccl. 3:1

  42. Christopher Jan 17th 2013
  43. Norma Auge Dowling Jan 17th 2013

    I wanted to make a comment to Hisservant above who commented about Gods call to his apostles and the early followers of Christ and to us. It is hard to wrap the mind around the fact that God would say thou shatl not kill, and then use warriors to accomplish His will. In Gods word there is written for men to turn their swords into plows. But it is also written to turn the plows into swords. It is written that there is a time for peace and a time for war. Seal two is a time of war…Some Christians will be called to die for their faith, many already are world wide. Many are called to turn the other cheek to not fight back. Some are called to fight. Let not the hand say to the foot I have no need of you. We are to consider the whole word of God. We are instructed to recognize both the mercy and the severity of God.

    I can say that I have personally been in a position where to live it appeared I needed to fight back. Someone close to me went crazy and tried to kill me. I was a baby in Christ but knew enough of the New Testament to pray. I saw God defend me with words He put in my mouth. “In the Name of Jesus , get out of that man” threw a 187 pound man across a room and knocked him out. God will tell us His will, the Holy Spirit will speak through us. In the days and months to come, some will be called to die for their faith. Some will be called to defend the innocent. Both will be following God.

  44. It might be prudent to point out that most people outside of the USA are only hearing what comes from the news media, and the news media is out to make money. Many times their views are extremely biased. Often times, they have an agenda, and that is to stir up more news, or they are in someone’s pocket. In certain circles—such as the media, the White House, those with Socialist agendas—conservatives and Christians have been classified as militant troublemakers, simply because a few have dared to speak out against this government’s agenda. Disagreeing does not mean we are using weapons. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds. Throughout history, there have been zealots who have turned to the sword to fight outwardly, yes, but it is not the true Christians who are stirring up trouble in this country. Actually, it is quite the opposite, and anyone who won’t lay down and play dead or turn a blind eye to this government’s Socialist agenda is being labeled as troublemakers and militants. This President is “tolerant” of everyone and everything except Christians and Conservatives.

    Remember that Rule #12 in Saul Alinsky’s 12 Rules for Radicals (which is well known that this President follows) is:

    RULE 12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

    So, don’t believe everything you hear on TV or read in the newspapers. We are living in critical times, and our senses MUST BE trained to discern good and evil.

  45. Oh my goodness! Being a Christian and being a soldier / warrior are not mutually exclusive. Own a gun — or not. Defend yourself — or not. I know Godly people on both sides of the issue. It’s a matter of conscience, not bibilical teaching.

  46. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    NanWills2—AMEN

  47. I am completely confused.

    Are we not forgetting that this whole political debate about the anti-gun policy began as a result of the unjustifiable, tragic and senseless loss of life in the recent episodes of mass murder both at the Colorado cinema and the Nursery school?

    Why are we bringing love for a Nation, war or anything else into this equation? These are separate issues. Children and innocent people were murdered in cold blood in those two instances and countless of others which have taken place primarily in the States over the years ,none of which would have happened if weapons were restricted to those who enlist to fight in a war or who choose as a career the responsibility of defending a nation. Who was the enemy in both these horrible killings??

    I don’t think anyone here would dispute that a country must defend itself when its basic rights and freedom come under serious threat (Hitler and his regime are one of many examples but I think Hitler and the Holocaust are hopefully the one we can all relate to at least I would like to think so) for it is thanks to that that we are able to speak about issues like these freely today, but to go from that to justify the freedom for anyone to own a weapon is simply another time bomb waiting to happen. Who knows where it will hit next? Most likely not in enemy’s soil but sadly at home again.

    Bottom line is we are discussing this as Christians and Jesus’s words quoted above by David Gonzalez speak for themselves. God tells us in His Word to not add or take anything away from it, so let’s simply all get back to the Word and pray for God’s will to be done on this matter and any other.

    God bless you all!

  48. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Politically—to control people, take away their guns and make them submissive.
    Spiritually—to control Christians, teach them to be pacifists.

    Both are agendas of the controlling enemy

  49. Bill at Citizens in Christ Jan 17th 2013

    I agree with Andrew that there is an UNHOLY obsession with guns going on in America (and in the Christian community) since it is obvious Pres. Obama is now pushing more than ever to remove guns (as Hitler did – thank you ALL for enlightening Andrew on history). This obsession is to be exposed and repented from. BUT, this Mennonite passive kind of theology Andrew puts forth on these political subjects is also FALSE. Passivity will lead to unnecessary persecution. If Andrew and his family should ever experience brutal persecution from totalitarian government, he may change his tune. God FORBID he would have to experience that. The Constitution is an invaluable document which has been a bedrock for freedom the world over – thanks to GODLY LIGHT of UNDERSTANDING seeded in it. We should be careful to uphold it or even that which we have will be taken from us (Matt 25:29). Jesus DID say in Luke 22:36 to BUY A GUN when you see dangerous situations coming, but guns will NOT SAVE America! Only turning to Christ in GENUINE Revival will save this country. I applaud Andrew for his good focus in that area!

  50. walter Jan 17th 2013

    Betcha don’t see or hear this info out of D.C. these days…

    From the World Health Organization:
    The latest Murder Statistics for the world:
    Murders per 100,000 citizens
    Honduras 91.6
    El Salvador 69.2
    Cote d’lvoire 56.9 52.2
    Venezuela 45.1
    Belize 41.4
    US Virgin Islands 39.2
    Guatemala 38.5
    Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
    Zambia 38.0
    Uganda 36.3
    Malawi 36.0
    Lesotho 35.2
    Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
    Colombia 33.4
    South Africa 31.8
    Congo 30.8
    Central African Republic 29.3
    Bahamas 27.4
    Puerto Rico 26.2
    Saint Lucia 25.2
    Dominican Republic 25.0
    Tanzania 24.5
    Sudan 24.2
    Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
    Ethiopia 22.5
    Guinea 22.5
    Dominica 22.1
    Burundi 21.7
    Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
    Panama 21.6
    Brazil 21.0
    Equatorial Guinea 20.7
    Guinea-Bissau 20.2
    Kenya 20.1
    Kyrgyzstan 20.1
    Cameroon 19.7
    Montserrat 19.7
    Greenland 19.2
    Angola 19.0
    Guyana 18.6
    Burkina Faso 18.0
    Eritrea 17.8
    Namibia 17.2
    Rwanda 17.1
    Mexico 16.9
    Chad 15.8
    Ghana 15.7
    Ecuador 15.2
    North Korea 15.2
    Benin 15.1
    Sierra Leone 14.9
    Mauritania 14.7
    Botswana 14.5
    Zimbabwe 14.3
    Gabon 13.8
    Nicaragua 13.6
    French Guiana 13.3
    Papua New Guinea 13.0
    Swaziland 12.9
    Bermuda 12.3
    Comoros 12.2
    Nigeria 12.2
    Cape Verde 11.6
    Grenada 11.5
    Paraguay 11.5
    Barbados 11.3
    Togo 10.9
    Gambia 10.8
    Peru 10.8
    Myanmar 10.2
    Russia 10.2
    Liberia 10.1
    Costa Rica 10.0
    Nauru 9.8
    Bolivia 8.9
    Mozambique 8.8
    Kazakhstan 8.8
    Senegal 8.7
    Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
    Mongolia 8.7
    British Virgin Islands 8.6
    Cayman Islands 8.4
    Seychelles 8.3
    Madagascar 8.1
    Indonesia 8.1
    Mali 8.0
    Pakistan 7.8
    Moldova 7.5
    Kiribati 7.3
    Guadeloupe 7.0
    Haiti 6.9
    Timor-Leste 6.9
    Anguilla 6.8
    Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
    Lithuania 6.6
    Uruguay 5.9
    Philippines 5.4
    Ukraine 5.2
    Estonia 5.2
    Cuba 5.0
    Belarus 4.9
    Thailand 4.8
    Suriname 4.6
    Laos 4.6
    Georgia 4.3
    Martinique 4.2
    And
    The United States = 4.2
    ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans

    I think more Americans are killed by ‘knives’ in the United States than by guns. However, I couldn’t find that stat again. In this respect, I completely agree with you… guns are not the issue… the human heart is. With that thought in mind, are we to outlaw kitchen knives too? How about cars? Hammers in the tool box? Something to think about.

  51. Soooooooooooo true!!!!! The devil has totally usurped the prophetic movement in the US by letting folks get so fixated on patriotism. I am convinced there is such a thing as a patriotism demon and Deception is so subtle that if one can’t see clear…one ends up with stuff like this gun control issue. Thanks so much for writing this.

  52. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Can we not pray for revival in America with a gun in our closet?

  53. In His Glory Jan 17th 2013

    We have had a primarily Christian Nation Andrew (Hasn’t been perfect but overall – the 1st reading book in school “used” to be The Bible.) & since we went into Laodicean mode for decades we now have a very wicked king to rule over us. Generally speaking – the American Church has been apathetic , didn’t stand up legally for the rights of the unborn, didn’t boldly preach the Biblical truths on sexual sins-sin, used almost no spiritual discernment (entertainment) & got too fat, dumb, & lazy- the likes of which are patterned in the Bible w/the Israelites. The surrounding culture changed for the worse & the people’s perception of moral values/justice “evolved” so that personal opinions prevailed.

    So now that we see the “Writing on the Wall” – those w/eyes to see – We are not too happy about it! Historical patterns repeat themselves & we see it repeating B4 our very eyes. America is under judgment – so what is a Christian to do? Cave in & stop preaching divine truths & standing up “legally” for them? Roll over & let the Homosexual activists take over w/o a whimper? Stop speaking against abortion? Discontinue exposing the Luciferian entertainment industry? Don’t inform our people that we are being judged under a Wicked king? By the way who is NOT a Christian. Don’t say anything so that more people can be drawn into this grand deception? Go around acting like we’re joyous over this?!

    I agree we are being “set up” & “drawn in” to be picked off if Martial Law & gun confiscation comes. (One law will need to the next – 1st assult rifle & eventually the hand gun which is the point. I doubt many American Christians own assult rifles anyway. These new laws are coming from rulers who train/give military equiptment to drug cartels & henious groups of people.) If they succeed in passing a law over gun ownership we still have to obey that law. We are in a spiritual battle & we have to rely on The Lord & not a piece of mechanical equipment. Learn a new skill to protect your family is need be. Continue walking close to the Lord & in your day of trouble remember prayer is a supernatural weapon against evil devices. I keep remembering Daniel & how some of the righteous were spared as they were taken “Physically” captive & into the enemy’s camp. We still need to be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves because ultimately we are to be going about our Father’s business rescuing the lost, & remaining a living example of obediently following God’s Word.

    “Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.” Revelation 13:10

  54. Catrise Jan 17th 2013

    AMEN!

  55. Great article. From all the unbridled rhetoric, I sometimes do not know who I am most afraid of – criminals or legal gun owners!

  56. First, I am a Retired Green Beret Command Sergeant Major with over 23 years active duty, with numerous combat tours. Now to my comments:

    You wrote: and leave the ungodly to fight for their “guns” and their “rights”.

    QUESTION: Are you speaking as an individual or as a Prophet???

    Either way, I deeply resent your implication that anyone who respects guns, for what they are, and one who has put his or her life on the line to protect those God given right (according to the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America) that because of our position the WE ARE NOT CHRISTIAN.

    Where in the Gospels does it give you (Andrew Strom) the right to sit in judgment as to my commitment to the Lord. Jesus found it necessary to correct his disciples when they did that, but I guess you consider yourself better then them.

  57. Amen, amen and double amen Andrew, I am grieved at the born again spirit filled Christians (at least that is what they claim to be) spouting off such hateful comments about guns, unkind insults about Obama’s wife and many other such things that are not fruits of the spirit mentioned in Galatians. I’m not a fan of Obama but I exercised my voting privileges and did not vote for him. Thats about all I can do. I have relatives on facebook that are not yet saved and when they see the stuff Christians write that they themselves do not even comment on, I see more Christian love in the ones we call sinners. We have left our first love. Christ called us to spread His gospel. No where in the bible does it say, go into the whole world and warn against gun control, overthrow governments and bad mouth the rulers in charge. I know this for a fact Christian parents have even bought their teenage children rifles and guns for Christmas this year. They are going wild with this fear of losing their guns. This is not what the gospel is about. We have lost the gospel.

  58. Mercedes, Yes Mercedes, I agree with you—you are completely confused!

    Guns do not kill people, people do (a fact that keeps eluding folks); and most guns used in crimes are smuggled weapons—which no gun control will ever prevent.

    See, as several have said—this is becoming a passionate political issue. What we have to ask ourselves is: Is Christ leading us in this discourse, or is our flesh getting the better of us? I believe by faith that Christ is purposely driving this issue to wake people up as to what is happening in this country! Gun Control is not a spiritual issue, but it is the symptom of how Satan is using division and deception quite well.

    As Ruth Graham said (she would always find something good to say about a person): He (Satan) is doing a GOOD job as the prince of darkness and the ruler of this world…

    We need to be in the Tree of Life and listen to Jesus—once again what Jeus meant in Luke 22:35-36 is most apropos…

    2Chr 7:14

  59. Dear All -

    I have a “Christian” duty to protect my family. The choice in America may boil down to having a weapon or genocide. This has nothing to do with protecting children; our 50 million plus abortions attests to that. It’s rather about an anti-God government trying to obtain a monopoly of force in order to quiet those who dissent. As the Jews observed, “if the Arabs would lay down their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Jews would lay down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.” If we, as a body politic, maintain the ability to defend ourselves, chances are we won’t have to. If we are disarmed, we can expect cultural cleansing. Is there some sort of “Christian” virtue in that?

  60. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Some posters on this thread are obviously from the enemy camp, here to continue to attempt to pacify those of us who are willing to make a stand for our rights, our freedom, our faith. (such as Rick Frueh). This country was established with the willingness to die for our faith. It was established for the right to be free, politically and religiously. A gun does not make a man dangerous. It does keep his freedom, and yours too.

  61. I Can No Longer Justify Bloodshed in His Name.

    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2012/08/bloodshed-in-his-name.html

  62. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    There is already a war in this nation. It is a war against Christianity. The government, the media and most of society considers Christians to be terrorists, and the cause of hatred and strife. They believe if they do away with Christianity they can live peacefully. (They believe a lie).
    We are free in this country to believe in Jesus, in Budah, Mohamed, or who ever. Freedom is Freedom.
    When we lose our freedom, Christianity will be the first to be outlawed.

  63. I am not from the “enemy’s camp” however I understand that perspective and I hold no grdges at all. Im love all the brethren, regardless of who says what about me. I stand completely in His grace and I know many soldiers who love the Lord Jesus with all their hearts. I believe the way of Jesus is non-violent, but I reject any air of superiority. Let the Spirit guide us all.

    From well within His camp,

    Rick

  64. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Rick Frueh—Can you give scripture to support your judgment? (without ignoring all the other scriptures that contradict your opinion)

  65. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    We must define violence. Is it violent to defend my family against an attack? Is it violent to defend my political rights against a group that would cancel them out to gain control over me, my children and future generations? I believe violence is in the heart, an intent to do harm to the innocent. I don’t consider defense against oppression as being violence.

  66. Hisservant rich Jan 17th 2013

    Praise Yahshua!

    I believe you mean Luke 22:36 a scripture i would expect someone defending your position to use. The scriptures also record this just a brief time after the Lord made that statement.

    Mt 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
    Mt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword

    i sought the Lord for a long time about these things and His answer to me was this :rich you can defend yourself OR I can defend you” The meaning of this was crystal clear to me.

    i am no pacifist. i am a soldier for Christ. i have went places in the service of the Lord that many a person with a gun would fear going. Again i will state that our weapons are not carnal.

    i completely agree with Andrew. Our nation is more divided than at any time since 1861 and many christians are being drawn into something that is secular.

    i belong to another Kingdom my constitution was written in the blood of Jesus. i implore all my brethern to remember that we are called to be ambassadors of the Most High God and His Christ. i am a christian not because the nation in which i was born, but because i have been bought with the blood of Jesus. He is my Master and Lord it is to Him and Him alone that i owe allegience.

    Hisservant rich

  67. Daniel F. Zepeda Sr. Jan 17th 2013

    But what is so “Christian” about owning guns anyway?
    Andrew The above comment is the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on your site. The 2nd Amendment was written in the United States Constitution guaranteeing the people of a free state the right to bear arms. It is a safe guard against tyranny that our American fore Fathers knew first hand. When our forefathers were so oppressed by the church of England and the King who stationed soldiers into private homes and forbade public gathering in order to control the freedoms of the American people. It was God fearing mean who took to arms and put their trust in providence knowing that they were out numbered, but they knew the God of Abraham and Isaac who stood with them to as they fought with muskets and bayonet to secure for us today the freedoms that we now enjoy. In this world so fallen it is the God given right to own weapons of choice without restrictions by any government who could in the future seek to take away the freedoms our forefathers bled and died for. Our Declaration of Independance and our Constitution were written by god fearing men endowed by the holy spirit who wrote on paper words that have transcended our American generations guaranteeing that every new generation the freedom we have today and it does so by our 2nd Amendment that guarantees our right to bear arms. It has been America and its Christian men and women who have in past time fought for freedom in distant lands to help free men from tyrants. You article was offensive to say the lest.

  68. I posted my comment above, and THEN looked at some of the earlier responses…

    I don’t think Andrew is saying that it’s wrong to stand against injustice with use of force. It’s just not the Christian mandate. The police and the military, after all, use force to do many of the same things mentioned above. They’re not in violation of God’s laws. Even a revolution might be in order at times, but don’t mistake it for the advancement of the Kingdom of God.

    As for the example of David and Goliath, above: The Jewish people had (or still have — depending on your theology) the mandate of maintaining a nation in the land God had given them as a part of God’s covenant with Israel. Christians, under the New Covenant, didn’t receive such a mandate. We’re called to support those in power, especially those who enforce justice.

    Now, as to the question, what should we have done during the early Nazi period in Germany, or whether to use a gun to prevent a greater disaster etc etc. …

    Is having an easy answer a mark of Truth? Is any one approach automatically the right one for every situation?

    I see, in the reigns of King David and King Solomon, a scriptural basis for both passivism and non-passivism. David fought many wars to establish the Kingdom of Israel all the way to the borders God had promised to Moses. He was 100% in God’s will in doing so. However, in doing this, he was a “man of blood”, and therefore wasn’t granted the privilage of building God’s Temple. King Solomon, a “man of peace”, was called to do that, and Solomon’s reign, in stark contrast to David’s, was an era of peace.

    Picking up a gun to shoot someone, even to stop a school shooting spree, is a position I hope I’m never thrust into. We could, for the purpose of argument, say it’s a sin. However, the rabbis have an argument based on the degrees of sin — the breaking of a lesser commandment instead of a greater one. A destitute woman has a child who is starving to death. To allow the child to die when it’s possible to save his life, would be a sin equal to murder. The commandment prohibiting murder is one of the greater commandments, whereas the commandment against stealing is one of the lesser. Therefore, the woman would be justified in stealing food, thus committing the lesser commandment, in order to keep from committing the greater one — allowing the child to die.

    We’re called to be perfect, even as He is perfect, in a world that is anything but perfect. There are, therefore, no easy answers.

    So, to sum up, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong for Christians to own guns, and engage in politics, but not as a part of the Christian mandate. Neither do I believe pacifist are out of order.

    In fact, I’d say I’m a pacifist.

  69. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Rick– I have briefly skimmed through your article. I will read more in depth later, but for now my comment is simple. You have picked and chosen the many scriptures that support your preconceived doctrine.
    The totality of God’s Word is truth. This means we must include all scriptures to get to the real truth. Otherwise, we might as well all get drunk in the spirit and have a jehovahuanah party, since those folks have chosen verses to support their doctrine also.

  70. Its getting out of hand though. I understand the need to stand up for the constitution, speak out against abortion and such. I too get concerned about it but to be moved with fear and hate that we are in a mad rush to go out and buy guns doesn’t seem like the way we should go. There are Christian people even wishing Obama would die, their hate has gotten that bad. Check out Facebook. Its awful. We need a revival, not a war. I would love to see a young lady decide against an abortion because Jesus saved her soul and she became a spirit filled believer. In past revivals even local bars would close down, not because of petitions and boycotts but because the power of God reached out and saved the bar owners. We’ve lost our faith in the power of prayer and speading the gospel. Until Jesus returns we are not to set up His kingdom for Him with violence. The weapons of warfare we are to use are not carnal but by the power of the Holy Spirit. As for Hiltler and WW2, the so called Christians helped Hitler and put him in power. As a nation we have to go to war on occasion to fight people like that but as churches, believers and Christians we must put on the armor of God and walk in the spirit following His way. Is our great commission to be Go into all the world and preach the gospel or Go into all the world and overthrow all liberals baptizing them in the name of the Republicans, the Tea Party and the religious right. I say this as a conservative repulican which I’ve been for many years. Do we want to take over governments and merge church and state like they did in the Middle Ages. Read what a fiasco that was. People were tortured and murdered in the name of Christianity. Is that the way we are going again? The left wing is evil yes but the extreme right is just as evil. All one has to do is read history to see that. I think the whole body of Christ needs to be re-baptized in the spirit and have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts again.

  71. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Mt 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
    Mt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword

    Peter went into “attack mode” in this situation. I agree this is not God’s will. Never the less, it does not say we should not be willing to stand in defense of ourselves.

    As an example: during preparation for Y2K someone stated, “why would you want to shoot somebody who comes onto your property who is hungry?”
    Their mindset was obvious. I wouldn’t want to shoot such a person, in fact I would help them out to the best of my ability.
    On the other hand, if somebody came onto my property to harm me, my family, or that other person who came for help, then I would use my gun to defend!
    Why do so many think that any one with a gun just wants to start shooting others?

  72. Donald – I am sorry you feel that way. But please provide me with New Testament teachings that suggest that a violent overthrow of a government over taxes is Biblical. That is how America was born. And that question was what made me examine what I had believed.
    I did not proof text, as you suggest. In fact, I submit the entirety of all four gospels which teach an overarching theme of non-violence.

    Rick

  73. Andrew,

    Thank you for writing as a brother in Christ, someone who realizes that anyone who is in Christ is truly an alien and a stranger in their land, whichever land that may be.

    I am from an American family with many believers, pastors, teachers, and military. Why in America is that so often the case? America is different. I have traveled much in the world and lived in other countries, and the more I travel, the more I thank God for America. I hope that does not sound arrogant. I am not taking credit for America’s uniqueness, just saying anyone who does not recognize it is blinded, usually by jealousy.

    But in the past decade, there has been a shift. And now the more I travel, the more I cry when I return to America’s soil, because she is dying. The freedom, the opportunity, the treasures of liberty and equality (though not perfect) that are celebrated by many are not less valuable than we think, they are moreso. They are the products of God’s truth (inconsistently, but more than any other case in history) applied to law, to society, to government. What an astonishing crescendo America has made in the history of man! And now, to watch her falling into the morass of commonality: loss of freedom, loss of justice, loss of opportunity…it is grievous to anyone acquainted with history.

    But those who are Christ’s should have a prophetic understanding, which I believe is what you have. Those who are Christ’s should not see the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or their family gun as the foundation of their freedom, but as byproducts of it. The Great Awakenings, the Puritans, the statistically unheard of majority of true believers in the past few centuries of American history: these are the lights on a hill that led to our unparalleled freedom and prosperity.

    Those lights have long ago been dimmed. I believe what Andrew points out is “believers” who are so dull of seeing that they are grasping at the straws of the remnants of freedom instead of having long foreseen that freedom was lost with righteousness. He is calling those who weep and groan not over the lost or over America’s mockery of God, but over their own loss of privileges in the wake of these things, to repent. This is absolutely right.

    These believers who reference the righteous judgement of the Lord in defense of their own anger, have lost touch with love of the Lord’s judgement. His wrath is being poured out on the ungodly, and America is that. If you love His judgements, you would long for America to be brought in her pride and wickedness, to some repentance, and if not, to some judgement. You would cry out with the prophets, “How long, O Lord…the babies dying…the corruption…the hatred of your name…the forgetting of all Your benefits…the unbelief…how long will you allow America to mock you?”

    As for the issue of gun control, Andrew purposefully did not address it. He was explicit that his article was not a statement on it. Politically, historically, there are many wise and useful perspectives on the right to bear arms, even shared in the thread above! But Andrew was speaking to the hearts of brothers and sisters in Christ. Bitter grief over the loss of America’s astonishing historical beauty and greatness is totally understandable, but an arrogant offense at the truth spoken by a brother is not. Some posters may not realize that in their blind anger they confirm Andrew’s word of caution with more force than he could have mustered himself.

  74. so you think that only what to pertains to God is what we should be concern. Granted, however, if we do to turn the other way, we will be included in the round up.. and our chances will be slim to none. this where the true Christians will emerge. and you will walk by faith and your faith will be tested. time and time.. so far we had it pretty easy. We be protected. we fought Wars for our freedom and they were secured now you want us to turn away from the gun grabbers and focus on the word. that’s just great!, so on Sunday morning you ready to go to church, and you are dairy man, and your cows are out.. we should stop going to church and take care of the need to put those cows back into the barn. but just go to church and God will take care of it right… I mean why even go to work, let God take care of us… God can do all things to us it would be impossible… lets see how you fare out when they do take not only your guns, but maybe molest your wife,daughters in the process… No you are not thinking right. I totally disagree with your statement. its much our concern as it is the people who want to defend their God given rights and that is to defend that right defend oneself, to preach the word without the thought of being shut down.. why because Christian decided to look the other way because it did not concern themselves. think again… and with that I woulds say if you knew the thief was coming to your house to night would lie in wait for him or leave the door open? hopefully you are prayed up.. see what God will do for you. maybe he just might send an Angel to defend you with a sword strap to his side.. now that’s a weapon? or maybe you should concern yourself?

  75. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Rick–again, my definition of violence must differ from yours. I believe violence is a heart condition to harm another innocent person. I don’t believe it is violent to defend myself.
    You also obviously believe that the United States has no right to exist in God’s opinion since our “cause” was unjustified and ungodly.

  76. I still stand with the truth before the Lord that I and my husband will never kill anyone to save our own lives. We have no guns. BUT AGAIN, who on earth would dare call themselves Christians and stand and allow evil devils to rape, and harm and torture our own children? Christ came and gladly gave His life for us and what monster would not defend his child or grandchildren? Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and we cannot ever throw out the Old Test for God said it is there for our learning.

    As Americans we have no king nor a Ceasar, but we do have a Constitution which governs us. The men in Congress from the White House down are there to simply ENFORCE the LAWS OF THE CONSTITUTION and to enforce them for our protection. We do not have any obligation to honor a king when we have a CONSTITUTION. Obama is NO KING, nor is he Ceasar! He is a traitor to the job he swears to do…..defend and enforce the laws of the Constitution…..NOT RULE over us like a Dictator, and violate our Constitution. Our govt is not run by a King but by the Constitution and we have a REPUBLIC! Our allegiance is to the Constitution and Republic as American citizens not the Congress.

  77. “Another question for you pacifists. If you did take that gun in hand and stand up and shoot the maniac, do you believe you would be in violation of God’s will for your actions?”

    YES!

    To all you Gun-and selfdefense-worshippers: If the VERY SON OF GOD would be by your side and about to be killed. Would you defend him? What did THE VERY SON OF GOD say, when Peter wanted to defend him? Answer that for yourselves…

    As someone already pointed it out: NO PERSON EVER IN THE NT MADE USE OF VIOLENCE OR SELFDEFENSE!!! NO CHRISTIAN EVER DID THAT UNTIL THE TIME OF CONSTANTINE WHO MIXED CHURCH AND STATE AND MADE THE CHURCH APOSTASIZE COMPLETELY!

    Have you heard of the shooting in the Amish community? They forgave. They even showed compassion to the murderers wife. No one has ever said, that following Jesus radically is easy.

    I recommend the book: “In God we don´t trust” by David Bercot

  78. No, America has the “right” to exist, however it has no divine favor and our allegiance should only be to Christ. We are pilgrims who have no earthly nation. The Constitution is an earthly document which carries no weight fo believers.

  79. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Rick– perhaps you missed an earlier post of mine. Can you answer the question?
    A question for all you pacifist Christians. If you were in that grade school, there was a gun on the table next to you and you heard the screams of people and gunshots. Would you leave that gun on the table and say, “violence is not Christian!” and continue to let dozens be killed?
    and
    Another question for you pacifists. If you did take that gun in hand and stand up and shoot the maniac, do you believe you would be in violation of God’s will for your actions?

  80. Donald…your reasoning reveals that you´re earthly minded. You seem to think that preserving earthly life is the most important thing to a Christian, which is exactly the opposite of what Jesus teaches us…We are pilgrims on this earth…

  81. Donald – My honestanswer is that if my granddaughter was being assaulted and raped and I had a gun I would probably use it. But that does not mean it would be Biblical, it would just indicate the extent of my commitment to what I believe. In short, I would act incongruous with what I believe, however that does not alter truth.

  82. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    Rick–Brother, I know we agree on this one thing. Jesus Christ is all that matters. Believe that He is the Son of God and the Savior of all who will call upon His Name. Everything on this earth will not matter at all 10,000 years from now. (I must go to work)

  83. Andrew, as a Brit I look at the Christian Right in America and am appalled by what I see and hear in some quarters. I don’t hear the words of Christ and I don’t see His actions. Jesus did not involve himself in politics, He urged turning the other cheek, going the extra mile and forsaking even family for the sake of the gospel.

    Whenever I pray for America I hear the words, “woe to those who go down to Egypt” (Is 31:1ff). It was the case when Christians were prepared to vote to have a Mormon in authority over them and it is the case now that they are insisting on their right to own guns in case they feel the need to kill someone.

  84. Donald – Yes and amen! You are my brother in Christ. Please do not allow my pacifism to suggest I do not respect men and women who risk their lives for what they believe. I do. And I attempt not to be self righteous. I hope you read my entire article.

    Peace – Rick

  85. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    David Gonzalez, can you then answer the same question for yourself? (and for us)

  86. “Andrew, as a Brit I look at the Christian Right in America and am appalled by what I see and hear in some quarters. I don’t hear the words of Christ and I don’t see His actions. Jesus did not involve himself in politics, He urged turning the other cheek, going the extra mile and forsaking even family for the sake of the gospel.”

    Amen, sister.

  87. Neville Salvetti Jan 17th 2013

    The Law says you can have guns and trying to stop people owning them goes against their constitution. Because Christians have not stood up for the law we have all the immoral legislation we have now. Where do you start to oppose the enemy as he tries to use the laws of the land to take away your rights?

  88. I did, Rick. I would NOT take the gun. Evil has to be overcome by GOOD, not evil. You have to realize that in the moment you use violence, you show that you still live under the law “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”…Jesus said in the Sermont on the Mount that whos righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the ones living under the law WILL BY NO MEANS ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Why not throw yourself into the gunfire and saving people by that instead of killing? I believe THAT would be Jesus` way.

  89. Neville Salvetti Jan 17th 2013

    The Bible says we are to be led by The Spirit in all things. So why is He being ignored in this? Has anyone asked God what His opinion is in all this?

  90. Richard Savage Jan 17th 2013

    IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT GUN CONTROL.

    Read the article.

  91. By the way: A Christianity always focussing on preserving ONES OWN RIGHTS is deluded, I´m sorry. Did Jesus defend his rights? He didn`t! And he told us to act similiar…

  92. P.S. As for the issue of pacifism and use of arms, the commands of the Lord in the New Testament are individual. Believers MUST individually turn the other cheek, but it would be an infantile understanding of the Bible and the world to try to impose that on a sovereign nation. Nations are not saved, individual souls are.

    Much of these arguments stem from not distinguishing between the New Covenant commands for individual believers and the government of a nation. There is no way to apply the “perfect law of liberty” for believers inhabited by the Spirit of God to nations. The Old Testament is where we find the wisdom for governing nations.

    Never in scripture did God command soldiers or civil servants to quit their jobs, which are by nature forceful, even violent. Acting on the authority of a sovereign nation with a pure heart is absolutely permissible by scripture, which is why so many Christian Americans are in the military. As I said, nations cannot be “saved” and filled with the Holy Spirit, only individuals. So while the New Covenant must govern individual believers, wisdom for government is best found in the Old Testament, because as Scripture says, “The law is for the lawless.” Until Christ returns, government is by nature set up to constrain the unregenerate, and defend against the unregenerate. It is interesting that in Scripture the jailer and the Roman soldiers were given explicit instructions for repentance, and none of it involved any shirking of their duties or the use of force.

    Thinking Christians should be clear on these distinctions. I think Andrew asks us to repent individually for sin of the heart. We can do so and be totally free to understand that a government checked by armed citizens is historically preferable, and that soldiers can be excellent in their jobs (even when it includes war), without being defiled by anger or hatred of the heart.

  93. DonaldN Jan 17th 2013

    One last statement for now,
    The majority of anti-gun believers say we cannot mix politics and our faith. But that is exactly what you have done, only your mix is to let the evil of the world have all the control of political government while we Christians just take what we get and accept it as persecution.
    We are still flesh beings, and should we not do what we can do to maintain our freedom, as long as it does not contradict God’s will?

  94. “The Bible says we are to be led by The Spirit in all things. So why is He being ignored in this? Has anyone asked God what His opinion is in all this?”

    The Bible says we have to keep Jesus commandments. One of these happens to be “love your enemies”, another one “resist not the evildoer ” and “whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also”…

  95. I very much agree Andrew!

    love, Loretta in SF Bay Area

  96. Teresa Jan 17th 2013

    I agree with you Andrew!
    If anything that should confirm that America’s churches have sown seeds of compromise, lust for power and fame, preaching smooth words for itching ears, it was the choice for presidential candidates, and now who is our president who we have reaped. President Obama reflects the compromise in the church.
    America reflects the compromise in the church.

    I want to be honest, I know my flesh is irritated at the lies coming out from this administration, my flesh hates the condescending tone and the blatant lies. They are not even good lies, they are stupid blatant lies.

    But, it has never been more real to me, once I had and still have to battle my flesh over this subject, that this world is not my home, and my baytle is to not love this world and the things this world has to offer.

    This is an especially hard battle of the flesh, when my own son came back from two wars, the frontlines of Iraq and Afghan, with severe PTSD, to the point he threatens suicide and in which he at this time wants to self medicate, and not seek Christ for healing and deliverance.

    All of these things going on in politics, all of these things going on in both sides of the media, are to cause division so bad, to perhaps cause an uprising. A house divided can not stand, this goes for nations too.

    All healing and deliverance, even for nations only comes through Jesus Christ. When we should have been humbling ourselves before Him and repenting, (without agenda, not even America)recommitting ourselves on His terms, leaving our agenda’s and goals at the cross, we were instead campaigning, getting the vote out—whitch after Jesus came, the only interest in any dignataries or government leaders was their souls,to give them the true gospel of Christ.

    God is the One who puts in government leaders, even Paul says that,
    Romans 13:1
    [ Submit to Government ] Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

    What a waste of time. I know there were supposed to be prayer groups all around praying for the other candidate to win, because they justified Romney’s fakse teachings as closer to their own, and yet if they would have soften their hearts to see that his religion demeans God, by believing that they too can morph into gods themselves with spirit beings as us, praying to them.

    People were praying with their wishlists for America, when they should have repented for their own compromised and doubleminded hearts and minds, that serve a god of their own making, and doctrines that are comfortable to themselves, when if our hearts and minds were right with God, If we truly love Him with all of our souls hearts and minds, then everything else, even this nation, would line up.

    Guns are only another symptom of our lack of faith, and total reliance on God.
    They in themselves are not sin. To own a gun is not a sin. But to cling to them for our comfort, our protection is a lie.

    The best thing we can do for this nation, is to put our total focus, our energy, into seeking Jesus, studying His fullness i. The whole of the word,”"RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.” Not just seeing battles, or weapons in the Old Testament and justifying the flesh.

    In the world, but not of it, only what we do for Christ will last, laying up my investments in heaven where moth and dust can’t corrupt and theives cannot steal.
    Walking by faith and not by sight, believing in the unseen that is everlasting and not the seen that is temperal.
    We individually are His witnesses. America, we are not Israel.

  97. “The majority of anti-gun believers say we cannot mix politics and our faith. But that is exactly what you have done, only your mix is to let the evil of the world have all the control of political government while we Christians just take what we get and accept it as persecution.
    We are still flesh beings, and should we not do what we can do to maintain our freedom, as long as it does not contradict God’s will?”

    But it contradicts Gods will. God EXPLICITLY TELLS US OVER AND OVER AGAIN throughout the whole NT that we are NOT to resist evil! I really think that you Americans have a serious problem with separating faith from state. The mix of church and state started with Constantine in Rome = APOSTASY! Please consider this…Please question your good ol´ American Christian Patriotism! It´s heresy! Christians are NOT to be involved in politics at all! Your foundation fathers got it all wrong from the beginning. Many of them were brutal Puritans who thought it was ok to love Jesus and kill people. Investigate Church history (especially of the first centuries BEFORE Constantine) and American history in light of the early church…you will be shocked… I pray for you.

  98. I meant founding fathers…sorry

  99. rebecca slough Jan 17th 2013

    I hear what you are saying and agree with most of it. But you say that “supporting our troops” is not Christian. ?? what??

    Of course it is. We may not support what our government is doing and we may not support the leadership. We may not even like the war effort or military action.
    I personally believe that New York/America is Mystery Babylon and I realize that She packages her sins much more neatly than the rest of the world – (so I am not a Jesus-is-American-Christian OR a Republican=Christian person)
    Having said that… It is ABSOLUTELY Christian to support our young men and women who are risking their lives to do what they are commanded to do in the name of what they are told is good. Some join the military to pay for school, some join because it’s a family tradition, some do not know what else to do and some join out honor and duty. We do not know and we cannot judge a person’s motives for joining the Military – but we as followers of Christ – those of us in America MUST support those men and woman. What happened after Viet Nam (no matter how horrific some of our govt’s decisions were) the way those men were treated was a travesty and it was the antithesis of Christianity. NO, Andrew you are wrong on that one point. We do and must support those men and woman. If our freedom is in jeopardy – they are the ones going to fight on our behalf. If we are attacked – they will be the ones sent to protect us. I realize that could change if we ever become a military state where our military is taking away our freedom to follow Christ – but that is not how it is – yet. We as Christians must support those men and woman.

  100. I wouldn’t expect someone who hasn’t lived there life in the greatest country in the world to understand what its like to see the country you love destroyed before your eyes. Many points already covered so no need to go there now. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me so many of these posts are meant to fire people up and cause argument and debate. Not even sure why I’m writing this….used to get caught up in this bickering and couldn’t wait to check the computer to try to win some argument over some provoking statement like this one. Don’t get caught up in it, ours a waste of precious time.

  101. We are living in stressful times. It will only get worse. Are we prepared? Christians, good noble Christians are trying to create a perfect world here on earth. No, we are supposed to be bringing more unsaved to Christ.. Arguing over gun laws will not see this happen.

    I don’t care for guns. But God gives me a choice. During WWII, many Quakers stayed out of WWII. But a lot of them worked behind desks and helped aid wounded men on the battlefront.. They were true passifists. No one ridiculed them or tried to change their minds. Yes, Salomon was the wiseist man on earth. He knew the pattern of the world very well. There’s a time for everything. There’s nothing New under the sun.

  102. When I think of the blood that was shed by our heroic men on the battle fields of the world that we might have freedom and how they had to use guns…..if it were not for them, we could never have had the freedom to spread the gospel to the nations like we have done. We went to the Soviet Union and established a wonderful Russian church risking our lives because in American we had the freedom to preach and teach the true gospel that my parents instilled into me.

    My father was a WW2 vet and oh, the high price he paid. My husband in Viet Nam and oh the price he paid for our freedom, and now our son in the Navy….laying his life down on a huge naval ship for our freedom to continue to take the gospel to the nations.

    IF IT WERE NOT FOR OUR MEN AND GUNS AND TANKS and their shed blood, AND WIVES AND MOTHERS AT HOME ON THEIR KNEES PRAYING LIKE MY MOM, WE WOULD BE NAZI LAND USSA…UNITED SOVIET STATES OF AMERICA! And many nations would not be reached with the gospel.

  103. Spirited discourse (though full of unhealthy emotion that impacts reason—faith and reason need to be balanced), AND it makes you wonder, if we can’t agree on principles in the constitution (“no infringement”), how can we agree on the principles of our faith. Just look at all the denominations and various branches of Christianity. Thank God that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. How wonderful that one day all things will be summed up in Christ. How wonderful to share in His resurrected life daily!

    Here’s an assumption and the situation! My wife and I agree that in the theater shooting rampage, a responsible, courageous, and mature man would run toward the shooter and not away from him to try to save the lives of innocents.

    I then asked my wife, that if led to rush the shooter, would she want me to be armed or not? I think any rational person can correctly guess her answer!

    Armed—would that be dying by the sword, as someone suggested above, or would unarmed (no sword/weapon), be just a fool’s action? I believe you implied that dying by the sword was an evil consequence or action by quoting Revelation…

  104. 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
    16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
    17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
    18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Rom 3

    This way of violence is the path to eternal destruction and eternal misery for these kind of “christians”. As hard as this is to face for so many they must be warned of their ignorance. This Americanized christianity is a trap and many are snared by it. God’s ways are ways of peace. The root lies in NO FEAR OF GOD.

    My contention is the gospel has been misrepresented to us in a way that assures us of our acceptance by God irregardless of how we live after we are saved. We dismiss the standard of the words and deeds of Jesus Christ. We dismiss the standard of discipleship. We dismiss the warnings of being judged according to our deeds. We dismiss the doctrine of justification by works and not by faith alone. We accept the standard of the world, thinking we are safe from accountability when we are not. “My words will judge you in the last day”

    The condemnation by Jesus of the religious world in His day with all it’s self-righteousness and hypocrisy and blindness is being replayed all over again in our day. This is the form of religion. I thank God there are some who can see through it. Time to Wake up, time to Grow up, time to Straighten up, time to Look up!!! God is Coming!! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

  105. Amen Joyce!

  106. Richard Savage Jan 17th 2013

    The article is about mixing nationalism and religion, not gun control in particular. And it’s not solely an American issue!!

    Neither nationalism nor religion are sanctioned in the Bible; indeed, religion is wrathfully spoken against. It’s already dead!

    Andrew is observing a dangerous, state led movement crushing the individual and forcing a forfeiture of any resistance to government.

    Again, it’s not solely an American issue!!

    But where do we Christians stand? Consider: eleven men changed the history of the world for the next two thousand years in the Name of Jesus of Nazareth, and all without doing violence.

    Perhaps we should be first seeking his kingdom and his righteousness … and the remainder of the passage is germane too!

    Bath Cavete – Excellent!! ‘Those who are Christ’s should not see the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or their family gun as the foundation of their freedom, but as byproducts of it. The Great Awakenings, the Puritans, the statistically unheard of majority of true believers in the past few centuries of American history: these are the lights on a hill that led to our unparalleled freedom and prosperity.’

  107. wineskin Jan 17th 2013

    “Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
    with the cross of Jesus going on before.”

    Once again, we see millions of aimlessly parading Christian soldiers lost in the fog…

    When will we learn that following the influence of our Christianity is NOT the same as following the supreme authority of His Christ? When will we finally catch on that He wasn’t kidding when He told us we can NOT successfully serve two masters??

    Is mindlessly killing eachother bad?–Of course.
    Do guns make it easier pull off?–Sure do.
    Will reducing guns reduce the mindless killing?–Nope…in fact, no matter what we do, the insanity is destined to increase as the love of many grows cold.

    If any one of you Chistians has so much as a drop of confidence in the leadership of our Lord, Jesus Christ, then lay your worn swords of worry at His feet and go share a sandwich with somebody. :)

  108. hisservant Jan 17th 2013

    it would seem that many more on here are ready to die for America and its constitution than are ready to live or die for Jesus.

    Hisservant rich

  109. Richard Savage Jan 17th 2013

    Hisservant: Excellent, and amen to that.

  110. Amen, exactly, hisservant.

  111. Amen Andrew!! We need to repent!!

    April
    USA

  112. Ric Schnekenburger Jan 17th 2013

    “Then He said unto them, But now,he who has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his script and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” Luke 22:36.

    Read if you would ‘The Heart of Truth’ by Charles Finney he was looking at war between our States and had some strong Biblical views on the subject of war and killing.

    Nothing riles a true blooded American more Andrew than speaking/parroting on this subject like a democrat. You guys from your neck of the world have already surrenderd your God given rights. Something that even Paul the Apostle would not do as a Roman citizen. Press on brother, but do so in Christ. ric

  113. rebecca slough Jan 17th 2013

    “Andrew is observing a dangerous, state led movement crushing the individual and forcing a forfeiture of any resistance to government.” Richard Savage

    I think this is the real issue. Any piece of this if observed by itself is highly debatable but they are not the whole picture as Richard Savage pointed out.

    They are a piece of what will become an anti-Christ Govt to overrun and suppress Christianity. Yes that will happen but should we be passive in each piece of that? Read the Macabees (sp?) Braveheart (Robert the Bruce) etc. Even the Anti-Christ himself will seem to have “christ-like answers to Chaos” but they will all be motivated by a sinister desire for control. bla bla bla

  114. Ray Anthony Jan 17th 2013

    I see the daggers are out already.

    Oh well!

    Bless you all,

    Andrew

    You love it don’t you? You enjoy it sitting down at your PC and read all the hate and anger that has been born from your fruitless posts. Please shut your Kiwi lips on matters that do not concern you, since you left the United States. So stay there and blast away at your own country and prophesy to it. Thanks!

  115. Jon Brown Jan 17th 2013

    I agree with Andrew on some of his points. This is really only one type of idol that some Christians have put before God. The issue isn’t a Christian vs. non-Christian one. It is a defending of a right that I believe was given to me from God under the constitution of the United States. God gave it to me because He chose me to be born in this country. I abide by laws and pay all my taxes (and as a business owner I will stay off that soap box) so I should have a reasonable expectation to not have a right taken from me. I do like guns. They are fun. They are a hobby, an interest and if it comes to it a means of self defense of defense of my family. I am not gun hungry nor is it a way for me to prepare for war. I enjoy shooting. It is a hobby of mine. Some people crochet, some people golf, some ski…whatever. If you don’t like or understand my hobby that’s fine. If you don’t really care weather or not you can own a gun, that’s fine too. Don’t think I am a war monger because I do.
    I think a lot of people speaking on the Colorado and Sandy Hook murders are forgetting one thing. There is demonic possession in those two shooters. Guns are not the problem. Satan is the problem. As an American citizen I have a right and responsibility to take action (whatever that might look like) if the government is not conducting itself wisely. I do not know if that is a “Christian” thing or not, but God has me in a country where I am allowed to have a voice either for or against what the government is doing so I choose to. And not just on this subject.
    Some of you guys need to chill out a little bit on this.

    For you guys in Nigeria, thank you for doing what you do for The Kingdom!! I am not sure about the question on going out and blowing people’s brains out..probably not. But I would have to think that self defense and defense of your family is not an un-Godly thing. Correct me if I am wrong (ONLY the guys from Nigeria, please!!)

  116. “You love it don’t you? You enjoy it sitting down at your PC and read all the hate and anger that has been born from your fruitless posts. Please shut your Kiwi lips on matters that do not concern you, since you left the United States. So stay there and blast away at your own country and prophesy to it. Thanks!”

    Wow, Patriot-spirit in operation…live…

  117. Sonshine Jan 17th 2013

    We are not dealing with a gun issue (therefore has not bearing on loving blood and war.) Americans are currently dealing with a freedom issue. We have an enemy manifesting among us Andrew and will you pray for us? Or will you condemn us to our death. As Christian Americans we actually have a profound revelation deep in our understanding that we were founded on Him…
    It is understandable that you don’t. It is understandable that Nigerians or other nationalities don’t. But we do.
    Why does the Lord exhort us to pray for Jerusalem? Is He a hater of His own? Or was He the breath in Washington, Jefferson and our other fathers as He was with Abraham and Issac and Jacob. When will the prophets of God prophesy from a revelation of Grace? Will you judge America? We have our judges bearing down into our buildings and destroying our innocent and will you rejoice in agreement saying ‘I told you so’? It is time to bloody all of our knees with travail until the kingdom of heaven is established in all the earth. It is not a sin for me to cry for my beautiful nation anymore than it is a sin for me to cry for Jerusalem or Christ Church or Kenya. It is not a sin for me to love. Losing my freedom that is written as a “right” in my constitution by which my nation was founded is a vexation to our spirit and so we Christians here in the land of liberty cry. Why won’t you? And if America sneezes and all others get a cold, then why don’t you give us a cure. Is your judgment our cure? Or would your compassionate love be. It is not a gun issue. We are fighting a great spiritual battle with darkness with one hand and trying to defend ourselves among our brethren with the other. Sadly, that is the typical situation with the church.

  118. Gary (Manson, NC) Jan 17th 2013

    I liked this article. In fact I recently traded an SKS assualt rifle for a 22. Something fun and can hunt with it too.

    I know a lot of folks with assualt rifles, and it seems that they have them, not so much to protect their homes from criminals, but to protect themselves from the government. But let’s be honest, what good is a weapon that shoots 50-100 times when you’re facing the military or SWAT unit? You can’t win and you only give them a reason to shoot you.

    Interesting that the Soviet Union didn’t fall by gunfire, and the changes in China over the last decade didn’t either. People like you and I stood unarmed in fron of the tanks and military units, defying the evil that their governments were doing. The soldiers refused to kill unarmed citizens … the battle was won.

    We forget that our military is generally made up of caring individuals just like ourselves. They don’t want to kill us or harm us in any way. We have to trust the conscience God gave them to not harm innocent people. But we remove the workings of their conscience (holy spirit?) when we make it a life or death issue.

    Much love in Jesus!

  119. Well said Ray, Thank You.

  120. Andrew, I love you Brother but I do not totally agree with you this time. America is not like any other country in the world. Our constitution was formed on Judeo/Christian principles and to protect the people from tyranny from their own government. Yes, as believers in Jesus Christ our first allegiance is to Him and we are to be a witness and bearer of the Good News to those who are lost and perishing, but that doesn’t mean that when we see evil that we do nothing. We all know the saying that “evil prevails when good men doing nothing.” We have history to teach us. In Germany, when the Jews were being taken and put in concentration camps, what did the church do? They sang their hymns louder in church so they couldn’t hear the cries for help of the Jews that were being transported to the camps by trains passing by. Is that what you’re asking Americans to do? That will NEVER happen here. We are a free people and we will fight to keep that God given freedom. God is not done with America. There are millions of God loving, righteous people here. The revival that The American church has been praying for is coming. Put on your seatbelt! We r going for a ride!! Praise Jesus!

  121. I remember as a little child my daddy taking me aside and showing me the pictures of the WW2 camps where he went to set the last few surviving Jews free from their torture ovens and starvation prisons. The pictures he showed me even as a child filled me with horror. He told me how he wept and the other men wept and wept at the sight of the starved bones laying on top of each other, and the starved survivors. Hero’s who only wished that they, their guns and tanks could have arrived a few years earlier.

    If only they had had guns to even protect their children against the Nazi horror. I feel sickened to think of how thankless we are and how heartless we are to not be willing to lay down our lives for others. Religion is a deceitful and evil, seducing thing! And ALWAYS IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!! SAD!

  122. Robert Jan 17th 2013

    The debate will never end (until the world does) about how “active” or “passive” Christians should be in this world and the affairs that affect every
    life, Christian and non-Christian.

    I totally agree with Andrew Strom that Christians should guard themselves from all the negative emotions and dangerous entanglements, and stay founded upon
    the great truth that our hope is not in this world, but in eternity with Jesus. I have put much meditation into the great lesson in John 17 that we are “in” the world but
    not “of’” the world.

    But I still believe that God would not have us just bury our heads in the sand when it comes to current events. God calls us to be beacons of truth in this world of lies. This means combating lies that potentially deceive us as believers, and warning the unbelievers also of the lies. The greatest perpetrator of lies and deception in front of me is the satanically driven federal government. I Pay
    attention to “politics”, for no reason except to identify the lies that are destroying lives and souls. (I make Democrats and Republicans angry).

    Millions and millions of Americans are engaged in the supercharged political civil war being fought between the left and the right, believing that they can save America and have happy and secure lives if their side can only win. It appears to me that this war will end with the complete destruction of America.

    As a Christian, with biblical values, I have strong sentiments for the founding principles of America, especially the doctrine of the founders that the free republic that they established could not hold together without the strong base of biblical faith and morality. I also have great admiration for their entire “unique” design which includes the Bill of Rights, designed to protect the American People from tyranny, the right to bears arms included.

    I was raised in the “gun culture” (and I still enjoy it very much). I was taught gun operation and gun safety from a young age. I was also taught the principle of self defense; that it was not evil, but actually a matter of duty, especially when women or children were in danger ( I dread the thought of lifting my hand against another
    human being, with any kind of weapon, including my bare fists).

    Becoming a Christian at the age of 24 launched me into serious meditation and internal struggle, not only about personal self defense, but the collective effort of
    a society to defend itself. After 3 decades plus of seeking God’s ways, I find myself secure in my belief that I will not sin if I use force to resist a murderer or
    rapist that is threatening me or my family, and that principle can be scaled up to a society fighting back against an invading army or tyrannical government or
    monarchy, as with the Revolutionary War. I find logic in the Declaration of Independence – the logic that a bully will not stop until met with force. (I understand that Jesus teaches us to “turn the other cheek”, but does that
    mean allowing a bully to pound you into the dirt day after day, with no end in sight?)

    But there’s still a problem. As I look at the “righteous” citizens who stand upon the principles of America’s founding, fighting back against the growing abusive
    communistic nature of their government, they are not so “righteous”. They say they are standing upon and fighting for the “founding principles of America” but
    they’re omitting the most important one – the one I have already emphasized – That everything else must be founded upon biblical faith and morality.

    The “Patriots” that are fighting for their “freedom” are living in all kinds of sin and immorality. They want freedom, but they want to use that freedom to enjoy living
    however that want to, ignoring the call of God to repent and live according to his Word. There is no foundation to their cause. It simply cannot work. They are defeating themselves and don’t even know it.

    Throughout the Bible, God gave victory to Israel when they were in right standing with Him.When they fell into sin and lasciviousness, God allowed their enemies
    to devastate them. Scripture says “There is a time to kill”, and “There is a time for war”, (Eccl. 3) I believe the right time is when you are in right standing with God and acting in obedience to Him. Knowing this, I cannot be a “blind patriot”.

    Cycling back to Mr. Strom’s question: “Do Christians love guns?”, I think the real question is “Should Christians love guns?”. I have to ask what he means by “loving guns”. If he means coveting, the answer to his question in “no”, because we are not to covet
    any of the material things of this world. If he is talking about being egotistical because of the power that a firearm gives an individual, the answer is also “no”. If he is talking about stocking up on powerful guns and ammo out of rage and vengeance, the answer is a great big “no”. If he’s talking about having guns and ammo because it’s something that
    you really really enjoy………….well…………I love my guns.

    Robert

  123. harvestistipe Jan 17th 2013

    Thank You Norma Auge Dowling I could not have said it anybetter what is going on right now.
    .
    And as stated the news media is bias and does not report what is really going on, in fact they hide what is going on, especially Bengazi and the school shooting even the election of Obama, everything was planned everything was staged even before it happened think about that for a moment, such days of deception.
    Fast and furious and Bengazi is a coverup, and guns are going into the hands of our enemy while being taken away from Americans. This is the real truth folks.

    Look what has happened to Egypt, when our president helped oust its president now we have the Muslem brotherhood, that we are arming, who hate Israel and pretends to like us. The same with Syria.

    I do believe the first seal has been opened, however I believe its rider is none other than Christ Jesus our precious Lord and Savior, out preparing a bride without spot or wrinkle, supping with us preparing us, this should be our focus Christ first, then we become eternally minded winning souls for Jesus Christ in this late hour and at our masters feet. The second seal is at the forefrount looking us straight in the face.

    Back to our guns, we can not predict tomorrow from today and I believe God will have some bare arms and some not.There are going to be many of Gods end of day witnesses.who shall be martyrd why? for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Will some whom bare guns save some of Christs witnesses allowing more time for testimony? I do not know, will they save some women from being raped some children from being raped? I do not know.

    Will some be spared starvation because of a hunting gun? I do not know. This I do know, those in the perfect will of God, he will never leave nor forsake rather we live through it all till he comes or rather we die. To be out of this body is to be in the presence of the Lord Paul said.

    Again our focus must not be distracted, we must daily seek God and reach souls hell is real.

    One last mention I witnessed a 21 year old two weeks ago wanting to kill himself – no hope no future – nothing to live for – he is still alive and is being witnesses too, afraid to believe in anything or anyone. PRAY FOR HIM – PRAY FOR HIS GENERATION – there are many like him out there right now,these are whom we are to be praying for, sorry but some have sold their soul to satan, read Jude 1, and it is our job to hear from the Holy Spirit whom we war in the spiirit for. Many are falling away!!! just as Paul warned in the very end of days, Aposasty is running rampid – Jude 1 said to not get caught up in their sin, but if able, to snatch them from the fires of hell.

    We have to be able to hear from God ourselves as to what he would have us to do, and we had better live in such a way that we can command the spirits of darkness to flee and to be his instrument to set the captives free. Only a real relationship with Christ will we hear what God would have us to do and then live in obediance to what he has called us to do.

    Every morning and as I go to bed lately I find myself singing, I have decided to follow Jesus though none go with me I’ll follow Jesus, the world behind me the cross before me no turning back, no turning back.
    where ever he leads me, is in Jesus hands our faith is in him.

    As the days of darkness aproach us without knowing his will, will only lead us in the flesh and may cause us our life both physical and God forbid for some spiritually.
    Blessings, Lynn

  124. How would you have commented upon the men and women who fought to establish this nation? Would you have expressed the same sentiments about guns? This country was not provoked to war by a tea tax, but by a nonreoresentative government that controlled everything including Religion. Those that formed our government saw into the future that the people owning weapons to keep corruption away and under foot is a necessary fact. Corrupt human spirit will strive to remove all freedoms from a free people in order to promote worship of just one thing….slavery to break the human spirit into submission and allegence to the very corruption that put them in slavery.
    Many of the men and women who gave their lives in the foundation of these United States were Christians living out their faith to give future generations a freedom they were not experiencing. We dare not roll over and abandon those who have gone before us to give us the fredoms we do have today.
    My spiritual home is not of this earth. I want to continue to have freedom of worship and realize the battle is not lost in one day but as each day goes undefended.

  125. Those who are the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God – Romans 8:14-16.

    In all things we are not presume but be led by the Lord. We should remember that the Lord instructed His disciples to take a sword when He was ready to give Himself up to be crucified.

    He reminded them at that time how He had previously instructed them not to take a sword with them, but He clearly told them that the instruction in the present situation was different.

    That is what is meant to be led of the Lord…we are in the NOW as God is constantly creating and upholding all things by the Word of His Power. In the Hebrew context we do not have a past tense in relation to Hashem God, as they know that as God creates from nothing; He has to constantly create if what is created is NOT to return to nothingness.

    (It is different when someone creates something from something else; they can leave it alone and come back to it later. When it is created from nothing; the Creator has to constantly keep it created as He is the existence of that thing.)

    So in relation to any question on having guns or not having guns let us go to Father in the NOW and get His direction for NOW.

    The spirit of religion which is in fact the spirit of rebellion (though it can seem extremely bound with good works and humility), assumes it knows the Heart of Father by either its understanding from past experience or because of the fallacy of man that he knows how God acts or thinks.

    God Himself is Eternal, which means He is beyond all limits or boundaries that man can comprehend. It is therefore very important as we seek to follow the Lord that we consult Him all the time; not assuming we know what His answer will be.

    In Isaiah 45:7, we know that the Lord as God can create evil and good. As our Father, every Perfect Gift comes from Him – James 1:17. As Our Shepherd only Goodness and Mercy follows us – Psalm 23.

    Jesus was the Perfect Son; He never did anything unless He saw/was seeing Father do it. All men are made in the image and likeness of God; but not all men are as we read this, walking as Sons of God who are led by His Spirit.

    Let us be His Sons; walking with Him in all we do, think or say. Let us do all things for His Glory…

  126. Have not read thru all the comments, but I have been grieved by so-called believers bad mouthing Obama relentlessly on FB. I have been tempted, but always felt a check. I do not think Obama is a great president at all, but the bible says to *speak evil of no man*…Policy? Yes, we can disagree on policy….

    What if the early believers had armed themselves? They would not have had to be fed to the lions! But upon the blood of the martyrs, we see the church being born. What if Corrie Ten Boom’s father had just hid behind the door and blown the gestapo away, in order to keep them away? We would not have Corrie’s glorious testimony of forgiveness. What if the Egyptian Christiansof today, instead of praying for their persecutors, and worshipping humbly, just started to fight? They have died, without raising a hand to their persecutors. If they had, the bloodshed would only have increased into all out war. What if Stephen had sent a group of armed men out to kill Paul? He would have likely been spared, we would have no testimony of Stephen standing filled with the glory of God, and no Paul to be converted (we don’t know even now how Stephen’s humble death affected Paul) Without Paul, most of the NT might have remained unwritten.

    Joseph Smith came out guns blazing and formed himself a powerful cult….nothing like the way Jesus calls us to live.

    The bible also says that they who live by the sword will die by the sword. Do I feel secure because we have guns in the house (we don’t) Would I feel more secure? The scripture again says that *Thou Lord ONLY makes me to dwell in safety!”

  127. Randall Jan 17th 2013

    I agree with you Andrew. Now if we can address the government taking our God given rights of self-defense away and our government lying to us, almost constantly now, and our government trying to implement population reduction…

    Any ideas on how to address these very real problems, Andrew?

  128. Rev. 13:9-10
    He that hath an ear, let him hear.

    He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints.

    The Bible

  129. Christians have left off following their Bibles if they ever did to begin with. I ran across Jack Van Impe on youtube saying Barack Obama is the antichrist. It was shock and laughter for me all at the same time. The antichrist Obama is trying to take our guns. Oh my!!!

    If “christians” don’t start following Jesus Christ and what He tells us. Exclusively!! He’s God isn’t He? He knows what He’s talking about doesn’t He? If they don’t start seeking the scriptures instead of every “opinion of men”, the future is going to be one wild roller coaster ride. Blown about by every wind of doctrine.The spirit of truth will unify us through the word of truth being made plain and clear to us.

    The spirit of babylon or confusion is already riding roughshod over many believer’s minds and hearts. Let God’s word settle it for you. Make the commitment to seek and follow God’s word. Find your answers there and don’t give up until you do. Get back to basics of prayer and scripture. God will make Himself known.

    Andrew Strom doesn’t convince me to believe of anything. Andrew Strom confirms to me what God has already made known to me in my heart through His word.

  130. George Jan 17th 2013

    Excellent Article!
    What are we called to do in this world? To Be like Jesus.
    The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty thru God, to the pulling down of all strongholds.
    The meek will one day inherit the earth.
    WE have only ONe right in this world, and that is to obey Christ and His commandments. We are to pray and be strong, trusting in His sufficiency.
    The Bible tells us what our attitude should be in this perilous hour,
    so that’s where my alligence lies!

  131. Denna-Rae Jan 17th 2013

    My daughter wrote this and I thought is was very good: Our founding fathers were very emphatic about putting our second amendment into the constitution for the purpose of keeping the government in line. Citizens in possession of firearms make a government think twice about running rough shod over its people. They are tools of war, and tools of self-defense. Just as spears and swords were in the Bible days and were used by Saul, King David, Jonathan, Solomon, etc. It isn’t right that Christians try and label the ownership of guns as being a “Christian” thing, but it is a “freedom” thing. God specifically set America up to be free, and part of that was our 2nd amendment rights in order to keep it that way. Removal of our guns and our rights is just the first step in the loss of our freedoms. Christians are to be careful about the spirit in which they fight for these things, but it is absolutely retarded for a Christian to not be able to salute the flag or support the troops. Most of this kind of thing has to do with morale. And as long as we don’t place that before God, it is important for a nation to show its patriotism or otherwise the strength and unity of the nation weakens and civil unrest begins. It is something that helps unite the peoples. Bad-mouthing the president is not good. Sure we have the free speech to do it but God says to pray for those in authority. We can voice our opinions that we disagree with his policies but pray for him. I definitely don’t believe that Christians should just “lay down and take it” and docilely give up our rights. But many Christians also don’t trust and follow God like they should either. The church for the most part nowadays is the Apostate Church. It is too easy for most people to put more faith in their guns than in their God and the Bible does warn that if we live by the sword, we will die by the sword. I personally carry my gun in an exercise of my constitutional rights. I hope I NEVER have to use it and I trust God to get me out of any situation, but my life is hid in Christ. I don’t want to die unless it’s of natural causes or for the glory of Christ Jesus.

  132. Amen Bro. George.

  133. I understand and agree with a lot of what Andrew is saying. Personally I will never have a gun. I would not want ever to send anyone to hell. But I think it very wrong for the govt. to take away peoples guns, especially to hunt for food.

    As for the current President. I cannot comprehend how a beleiver & follower of Jesus Christ could ever vote for a person, no matter what they say they are, who goes against God’s Ways such as abortion & gay marriage etc. But my prayer partner and I do pray for him & his family along with Congress & the Senate.

    I think of the dear brothers and sisters being persecuted in other Countries. What they go through is mind boggling. But the deep faith and trust in the Lord is awesome. They have no weapons, they have to trust in the Lord to make a way where there is no way, they have to trust for provisions, for escapes, for a greater grace etc.

    We are Christians of a different type in most parts of the world. We trust in so much other means than our Lord. One little sniffle and we are off the the Dr. for a quick fix. The ones in the persecuted Countries go to each other for prayer in the Name of the Lord Jesus and so many times they are healed. So many awesome testimonies. Jesus is not the Great Physician to many in the western world. But we say, “The Lord can use Dr.s too.” And yes, He does. My point is we go to them, rely on them way more than we do Jesus.

    I am not going to put down Christians but I am learning from the persecuted Countries about a whole different kind of Christian and a deeper relationship with Jesus.

    The Lord God knew America & the world would come to this place in history, He knew we would be luke-warm, self-righteous, worldly minded at times. And He knows there are many, many on their faces praying as well. And He is so huge, His ways and thoughts and plans are so big….He is still in control….He is Savior of the world…He is Jesus, the Son of Almighty God, the Creator of the Universe.

    I think we have all been luke-warm, back-slidden, lost, hypercritical, self-righteous at one or more times in our Christian walk and the Lord never turned me away, He never gave up on me and for that I am forever grateful. All the times I have stumbled and fell, He was there to pick me up. When I went to the right or the left, He was there to guide me back to the straight and narrow. I believe and know that His Word is true and He will and is finishing the good work He began in me.

    I believe that for all as well. Once we belong to Him He will do everything to finish that good work. I hate it when people are so down on the backslidden or the prodigal, the luke-warm – forgetting it was you and it was I that was part of those people we now point the finger at and blame. Now that we are so spiritual that we can do that. Well, now are we self-righteous because the Lord has delivered us. Remember where we came from and our own sins and not so quick to point out others but take people to Jesus, pray for deliverance & the veil of deception be lifted etc. As we pray allow the Holy Spirit to do His work and watch God be His awesome self that no one but Him could ever get the glory.

    If you read all this, thank you for allowing me to share my opinion. May we all seek Him first and keep our eyes on Jesus and seek Him with a passion – to get to know Him that we may turn from any wicked way or thing and as we surrender to Him more the love & trust and faith will grow stronger and the ways of the world will begin to leave us more and more. More of Jesus and less of us. He will finish the good work He began. All glory to His Name.

  134. “YOU HAVE NEVER LIVED UNTIL YOU HAVE ALMOST HAD YOUR LIFE TAKEN FROM YOU, LIFE HAS A SPECIAL MEANING THAT THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW.”

    You can say what you want, but until you have had to physically defend your life or the lives of others what you have to say on this issue really doesn’t amount to much.

  135. I think the “Christians” who are more opposed to gun control are the southern ” good ole boy, red neck” Southern Baptists. Their motto is ” if ya cant shoot it and stuff it.. ya marry it”! These are also the ones that get into outrageous fights over any sports topic available. Also, Barack Obama should have not been elected president. I believe he is one of the Sons of Ham.. a group of people who were cursed back in Noahs day.. and were to be cursed for eternity. Also, he is going behind the backs of the American people and slowly taking our freedoms. I hear that New Zealand is now the nation with the most human freedom. That being the case.. I’d leave America for NZ in a heartbeat if y’all had a region such as Florida with tropical temps year round!

  136. The Spirit of God has been speaking to me along the samr lines . It is that American Christians have gotten into the FLESH SPIRIT when our BATTLES ARE IN THE SPIRIT. CALLING THE PRESIDENT names shows how low our spirit has went , calling for a Civil War and saying they are Christians is a perfect example of the flesh at war . Has nothing to do with our nation has everything to do with our SPIRIT. The American Christian has forgot GODS KINGDOM is SOULS not money and power .

  137. Yes, yes, yes, yes….Andrew I truly appreciate your email and your ministry but this time I have to disagree. I served in the US Marine Corp – my dad landed on Iwo Jima feb 19, 1945 and my son has PTSD after serving in both Iraq and Afganistan. Now don’t get me wrong, just because we all fought (along with millions of other veterans) does not make it right. I mean how could it possibly be right to save God’s people from concentration camps, how could it be right to protect your wife and children, how could it be right to want to bring the Gospel to the world while there are others who want to kill you – come on! there are many times in the Old Testament where God called upon His people to kill men, woman and children…He Himself totally destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah.
    I do not disagree that we in the USA are sinners but….I think you have traveled enough to know that – “ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.” The whole world needs a revival!!! Again I pray and pray and pray that we will never, never, never, never have to use a gun or anything else to protect ourselves or to do what some of us may (I feel you will not agree with this) actually know in our spirit that using the gun we have may be in God’s will. Obviously HE WILL BE THE JUDGE. I wonder where Great Britain, New Zealand, etc would be today if Winston Churchill and Roosevelt had said surrender, surrender, surrender rather than NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, SURRENDER.
    In case you have not noticed we live in a world where Satan is still causing trouble – evil is rampant – killing people is done everyday because of their beliefs, culture, race, etc. What would you have us do – just lay down our guns and say to those who would take away the freedoms given us by God – it’s ok kill me and my children…..
    Please understand most of us Bible thumping, gun packing, right wing radical christians do not have guns to kill people BUT many of us actually believe that the 2nd Amendment orf our Constitution was written to protect the citizens from an evil government!!! not so we could go hunting.- consider this link http://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm
    The Text of The 2nd Amendment – A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Below is a satire I wrote some time ago that might be enlightening to some…
    TIME FOR CHANGE

    Satire

    Has anyone noticed that our government is providing or may be thinking of providing us many urgently needed changes that undoubtedly will lead to a higher quality of life (as defined by highly qualified government Czars). Time is running out. We must implement these ASAP if our freedom is to be maintained.

    Below is a list that we should urge our government to do. These should make each of our lives less complicated and provide more time to do the things we really want to do.

    1. Pursuit of happiness – we should no longer have to do this the government willl provide.

    2. Raise and educate our children – no longer a parental task. Government standards should make sure they learn what is necessary and are raised properly. In fact, marriage and family could be done away with altogether and sex could be just for personal enjoyment.The government should take full responsibility for all children.

    3. Religion – we are no longer a Christian nation. God is dead and all those things previously provided by Him should now be provided by the government. We won’t even have to pray anymore.

    4. Guns – the only bear arms we have to worry about will be people wearing short sleeve shirts.

    5. Health – If all goes well each of us will be healthy as defined by government policy or else.

    6. Old age and Social Security – may no longer be a problem. Counseling and opportunities for euthanasia should be made available for all at a reasonable price.

    7. Over population – We now support abortion world wide and should require all medical facilities to provide this valuable service.This program could be covered by ObamaCare! This is urgent as people exhale carbon dioxide and contribute to global warming. Moreover, the food supply is getting scarce.

    8. Wealth – Finally, if anyone has the ability and is willing to work hard they should be required to take care of those who unfortunately were born lazy (obviously a genetic problem) or just are not interested in the pursuit of happiness.

    9. Death – the cost may soon be greatly reduced as we invest in government run Soylent Green facilities. This will aslo provide necessary protein for a healthy diet.

    10. Congress – Should no longer be needed as their duties can be carried out by Czars appointed by the President. Imagine – no more elections, political parties, lobbyists or committees. What a cost savings.

    11.Diplomatic relations – These should be taken care of by beer parties with foreign officials on the White House lawn. On the other hand if we were to allow the UN to run things for us it would be so much better.

    All of these suggestions and many more being proposed by the more than 40 Czars we now have will make the current Bill of Rights and Constitution no longer necessary saving trillions of dollars.

    I am so happy we have finally seen the light –

    THERE IS NO GOD NOR ARE THERE ANY ABSOLUTE TRUTHS. WE LIVE AND DIE AND THAT IS IT. WHAT A RELIEF.

  138. nellie Jan 17th 2013

    Strange if Joel 3:9 comes into play someday…

  139. William Jan 17th 2013

    In response to the post by Joyce: Her comments in parenthesis, my comments follow (My husband and I do not and will not own a gun, nor would not want to kill anyone.. HOWEVER, WHO WOULD NOT DEFEND THEIR LITTLE CHILDREN?? We are grandparents, and if necessary, we would lay down our lives for these little ones and fight in the Name of the Lord of Hosts to the death for them!!

    What kind of Christian would not fight for their own, or others? And the horror that was done in most of the countries AFTER the guns were taken away….horror upon horror…to infants and to adults, women raped, horrific torture, and we sit back in our armchairs and pontificate!)

    You make a good point about self defense. I ask you this. Do you think a baseball bat or firearm would protect you and your daughters from being brutally raped, tortured and murdered in front of your husband, and then the home invaders for example, would cut his throat. Did your husband make a good attempt to protect his family with the “no guns in my home” mentality?? I am not trying to critisize you in your conviction of not wanting guns, however, a logical, stable minded person would indeed agree that a firearm is a much better tool in preserving life than that trusty old baseball bat. You can search the web for a video called :Innocents Betrayed: The history fo gun control. It shows how dictators over the past 100 years all did the same thing before they took power and turtured and murdered millions….they disarmed the population. But, back to self defense. I own a firearm and have no conviction whatsoever about using it against an evil home invader that would potentially put me and my family at great risk of injury or death. I don’t think it would be honorable and pleasing to the Lord to just sit back and do nothing in a self defense situation.

  140. Margaret Newcombe Jan 17th 2013

    Brilliant Andrew brilliant , you have said what needs to be said on this issue .I totally agree.

  141. William Jan 17th 2013

    I find the comments about obummer being a Christian almost hard to read!!! Are you kidding me??????? Some of you have been hypnotized by his sultry words and decieved into thinking this Christ hating, tyrant is a Christian???? We need to pray for him yes. He is in bed with the globalist elite…you know the powers in this world that are aligning nations to prepare for the new world order and the anti-christ. I am a firearms owner, and a Believer in the Lord Jesus, but all the constant attacks on the 2nd Amendment here in America, although disturb and anger me, I know that the mass shootings are not a mistake….all the pieces are being aligned and events happen for that alignment to happen. America WILL eventually be disarmed, and only the criminals and government will have firearms…the NWO is right at the door, as is Christs’ return.

  142. Richard Savage Jan 17th 2013

    If you think this article, and the entire matter, is about just gun control you’re playing into someone else’s hands.

    It’s about us separating nationalism and Christianity; it’s about Christ Jesus and the opposition.

    It’s about which side are you on!!

    Read the article.

  143. I like the statement ” do not love guns nor hate them”. I will use one as a tool to do hunt and protect. I find nothing wrong with carrying a side arm to protect myself and and family for an example: in a movie theatre where some demonic Manchurian candidate starts spraying rounds. This is not war mongering, this is self preservation and though its His will and not mine, I could also sit back unarmed and watch the carnage unfold possibly taking a bullet for The Lord. Though I’m American by birth is irrelevant. I would choose to live my life peace unless someone chose to take that peace by force

  144. AMEN!! We appreciate you and your HOLY ministry!

  145. Darren Sargent Jan 17th 2013

    If you take a gun to yourself you are your own defender – not God. Take but your tunic, go empty handed and with a full heart of love and truth. Such a one has God as his defender and hides behind nothing except the true shield.

    Love to all

  146. antipas4yahshua Jan 17th 2013

    Allow me to suggest seeking the Sprit & wisdom and really meditating on this.
    Yes as “disciples” we are never called to violence. The Kingdom of G_D is justice, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

    However I dont see anywhere in the scriptures, history, works of Works of Josephus or the apocrypha on personal defense, defending righteousness, or those who are unable to protect themselves.

    Quite the opposite – Paul fought wild beast and robbers.
    The wall was rebuilt with a sword in one hand and tool in the other as well as those with trumpets for warning.
    Jesus and the disciples were in possession of illegal arms ( this is a great illustration, pray and ask for wisdom – laying down ones ability of defense when the cup of persecution is made known. Paul responded as in the same manner).

    Recent “defecto” review of history shows that the disarming of society from a obvious corrupt government results in genocide (Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Lenin, Amin)
    Read this again.

    The president of the United States has lied multiple times and it is a well known fact he is Islamic.
    This is not slander or evil speaking but just fact
    This cannot be denied.

    England & Canada has adopted Sharia Law.
    Sharia law allows for the pedeophile and abuse for women.
    This can not be denied.

    The recent riots in England where the police did not protect the public from senseless looting and violence and the general public was unable to defend themselves.
    This can not be denied.

    Actual assault rifles are illegal in the United States as they should be.
    However, the ban is for assault “STYLE” and high capacity magazines.

    THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.
    As usual the “father of lies” operates in a “gray area”.

    This would leave bolt action or single shot rifles, no semi-auto shotguns, no semi, and no semi auto pistols.

    While Yahshua abhors violence the Holy Spirit calls for wisdom of previous history as the early Christians were killed as well the revolt of the Maccabees for not worshipping foreign gods by Rome. G_D has used both to purify His elect.

    The Jews this day are protected by G_D by Holy Spirit via military force.
    I personally believe there are some Christian disciples that called to do the same for the sake of personal defense, defense of others, the sake of righteousness, and against criminals.
    This is not violence.

    The bible shows many times some are set for captivity, some for the sword, and some for vicious persecution for refinement (ie the movie “The Mission” is a great illustration.

    As a Jewish Christian, I am in good conscious with owning guns for defense and hunting (remembering the Holocaust and living through the race riots in Detroit and Los Angeles). G_D has kept me along with items for personal defense.

    For those who are American Christians that own guns ( like myself) – make sure you are listening to Jesus and not a spirit of fear.

    Shalom,

    Mike

    P.S. They went forward with a prayer in their heart and a sword in their hand.

  147. Lori J. Jan 17th 2013

    Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate your words of truth. I love the Lord with all my heart. I also am an American. My heart is broken at seeing what is happening to our nation. We are in the midst of a great spiritual battle which will be won for the soul of our nation on our knees. This darkness has encompassed the whole world. These are last days. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled moment by moment. We are to get on our face before the Lord daily in humble prayer and repentance (Search my heart, Oh God…), seeking Him above all else. He is faithful. He will keep us in His perfect peace as our minds are fixed upon Him. His joy will be our strength no matter what comes. We carry the hope and the light of the Lord into a very dark world. As the world gets darker, His brightness will shine that much greater. In obedience, we are to fulfill His great commission…to bring in the endtime harvest of many hungry souls before His return. Time is growing short. May the Lord hear the prayers of our hearts for America…but if He should not answer them….may we bring many broken souls into to His kingdom. Many Americans are suffering greatly. We have been born and anointed by His Spirit for such a time as this. For the Christians around the world, PLEASE pray for us to be all God has called us to be.

  148. Andrew Andrew Andrew…..you’ve done it yet again! Lets pray this type of conversation starter is not considered to be a type of discord among among the brethren. You did make a point. You did some Christians angry.You did use your ‘ authority’ to tell people to repent. But remember….His ways always have been and always will be higher than yours. One piece of clay telling other pieces of clay to repent is interesting….but I guess thats been happening ever since Jesus went back to Heaven. I just wish you would spend the same amount of time talking about the Glories and wonderful mercies of God as you do everything else you come up with.

  149. antipas4yahshua Jan 17th 2013

    Further thoughts- there is a vast difference to rebellion to avoid taxation ( ie Zealots), or in the name of religious freedom or both (ie America) vs. the protection of ones family or life (use spiritual wisdom on this one).

    Shalom

  150. Nadene Jan 17th 2013

    Hey Andrew,
    A friend just sent me your article on, “Do Christians Love Guns,” and it was good to hear, AND —
    I am a Christian, I live in West Virginia, and I do like that I can own a gun if I desire. Love them? It’s not about love, it’s about target practice, and living in WV, it’s about eating what we kill. No, I don’t hunt any longer, BUT — I did want to sincerely thank you for the reminder that it’s not about “fighting” for our rights — it’s about praying for our Father’s will to be done. Please keep reminding us — we are yet “old sheep,” and keep forgetting where our true pasture lies.
    Hugs & Blessings,
    Nadene

  151. Daniel Caleb Jan 17th 2013

    Andrew I too wrote something very similar to this on my Facebook wall and I received a lot of flack for it just like you. Oh and to those who are attacking Andrew because he’s not American, cut it out I agree with every word he wrote and I was born and raised in the South (NC). First the major verse I keep finding people use is a vague one in Luke 22. First off, if this verse was a call for the church to defend herself why then were most (if not all) the early Christians non-violent? Also you do not understand Jesus’s reasoning, it was to fulfill the Scriptures that He told them to buy the swords (study the context) and when Peter actually used the sword (the sword Jesus told him to bring) Jesus rebuked him saying, “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword”.

    1. Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. Do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also.

    You can’t get around the plain words of Jesus, either He was just messing with His disciples when He said these things or He actually seriously wants us to obey His commands. This issue is not small, Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey my commands”. Food for thought, you who argue against the word of God, can you really love Christ if your unwilling to obey His word?

    2. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Strong words from the Apostle Paul, do you take them as scripture or not? In the end your gun fanaticism and anger over losing your “rights” is really a symptom of your lack of trust in the Lord. Tell me, do you trust in God’s justice or are you really so earth-bound that you think that we must avenge ourselves of our adversaries? You’re no better than criminals if you cannot overcome evil with good. Your comments show me that you really don’t believe that love is as powerful as death, that grace swallows up sin. You want the truth? We all deserve to be shot for our sins, but will you repay the grace you have been shown by “defending” your life and robbing someone of a chance to know God’s grace? By killing a gunman you are in effect sealing their fate to an eternal hell, while if you would just be who God called you to be, a witness to him, you may lose your life, but perhaps he may one day be saved. That’s Christ’s perspective. It is because you “trust in yourselves that you are righteous” that you think you have any right to kill. You have no rights in Christ! You are His slave.

    3. Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.

    There you have it separation of church and state. The state and the church should not mix, and to God I wish they had never. Andrew is right when he says that historically whenever religion and politics mix we get a nasty outcome. The church was never meant to be married to the world. We are a Kingdom not of this world, one that has a constitution (Sermon of the Mount) that leads us to die for our King (not president, because we are not a democracy but citizens of a Heavenly “King”dom). It is an upside down Kingdom, where in order to gain your life you must be willing to lose it, where you do not defend yourself from an evildoer, where love for God and others is the Highest law, and where grace and mercy overflow eternally. This Kingdom has no need of guns or swords, because we are to overcome evil with good. We are lead, just as our Beloved Savior was, like sheep to slaughter. We are lambs with the boldness of lions, our sword is the word of God, our defense is trust in Him. We know that one day all things will be judged in the light of God’s love and truth. By leaving it up to God we know that justice and judgment will be done.

    So in conclusion? Stop trusting in your country, your guns, and your damnable rights, this is not your home, if you are Christ’s then your citizenship is found in heaven. Stop being so carnally-minded and submit to the Scriptures, let your lives be conformed to the Spirit of grace, have faith in God, because that is really the issue here. Do you believe God is able to bring forth justice, or will you take matters into your own hands?

  152. Margaret Newcombe Jan 17th 2013

    From a lot of comments here I can see that some Christians are unaware of the miracle working power of the Holy Spirit, and the New Testament admonition to put on spiritual armour and fight : our battle is not against flesh and blood but against Principalities and powers and spiritual rulers in high places. God is our protector and He alone will fight for us as we cry out in Jesus name and ask for more of the Holy Spirit in our lives.Our responsibility is to seek Him for keys in this spiritual battle and as the Church ,His Body on earth, begin to lay down our lives for one another. The cross is the only answer. A New testament understanding of ‘what would Jesus do’….we must get rid of what has become the idolatry of the flag and the constitutions of our nations and even the Bible, which in many ways replaces the true Word of God who is the Lord Jesus Christ.( John 1v1). He is a person not a book of rules and regulations and excuses to curse others. He is our defender…. Ps 91.he is our refuge and our fortress…..v5.You shall not be afraid of the terror of the night ,nor of the arrow( bullet) ( evil plots and slanders of the wicked) that flies by day….6. Nor of…the destruction and sudden death that surprise and lay waste at noonday)….this is a promise for verse one”He who dwell in the secret place of the Most High….”

  153. crossjordan7 Jan 17th 2013

    This is the first time i have ever posted on this fourm. I usually read it all the time, but have never felt the need to respond to any of the articles. However, i feel a strong unction to respond to this one.
    I am an American missionary in the country of Mexico. I have been here over 12 years. With that being said let me respond to the original article by Andrew. Most of the responses is mindless chatter, which is the case with most christian fourms. First of all, nowhere in the article is Andrew against “gun control”. He is merely pointing out the simple fact that true christian people are not to get involved in any kind of political debate. I was recently taken hostage by the drug cartel people here in Mexico. There was 7 of them with assault rifles that forced my car off the road. Four of them got inside my double cab pick-up while three of them stood outside with rifles pointed at my head. They wanted my pick-up and my money. I told them, “no problem”. I handed them my wallet, and told them to take the truck. Then one of them asked me, “who are you and why are you in mexico”. I said, “i am an American missionary”. one of them in the back seat of my truck who was apparently the boss began speaking to someone on a hand held radio. He said, we have stopped a new Ford Lobo, but the man driving is an American missionary. Who ever it was on the other end of the radio said, “turn him loose at once”. The one in the back handed my money back to me, and said, “i am sorry sir, you are free to go” .Then he got me by the hand and kissed my hand, and said “Go”. I drove away from that ambush site singing “Glory, Glory, Hallejuah”. I am relating that incident to you folks in order to make my point here. Romans chapter 13 very plainly tells us that God himself has appointed certain people to “bear the sword” in our behalf. Gos appoints these people to protect the rest of us, and we are to pray for them. Wheather they are christian or not we are to pray for them all the time. The question might arise, would i have responded with deadly force if i had of had a gun? No, absouletly not. I did not even really feel any fear. My heavenly Father delivered me out of a deadly situation, and there is not a doubt in my mind he will do it again. The gospel will go on in this dark and dreadful place. There was truck loads of soldiers that moved into our town shortly after this incident, and i am here to tell you that me and my family take much comfort in those heavily armed men on the streets. The point that i am making is simply this. We as christians don´t need to physically defend ourselves. We have a heavenly Father that will intervene in our behalf. I am a witness to that. We are instructed in Gods word to “obey the laws of the land”. There is no option to that. Right now it is a legal law of the land for anyone to own a gun. However, if they were to pass a law making it illeagal to own a gun, then christian people have no other choice but to obey that law. I am saying this as a man that was raised with a gun in the hills of Kentucky. I love a gun as much as anyone, but my love for a gun don´t in any way re-write the book. It says for me to obey the laws of the land, and i have no other option. neither do any of you that names the name of Christ. It is a good article Andrew.

  154. Margaret Newcombe Jan 17th 2013

    Very well said Daniel Caleb..I am Australian and my heart is crying out for America as well as my own country, and for the rest of the nations at this time of great fear in the earth…may God have mercy on us all.

  155. Check out the following by Michael Boldea at his blog Homeward Bound “To Arm or Not to Arm!”

  156. I know that this has been hashed over before but with this topic please consider the posting again by Michael Boldea “The Stages of Judgement” posted Dec. 14th just over two hours being that awful event of that day.

  157. Averyl Jan 17th 2013

    I’m so glad that here in NZ we don’t need to think about arming ourselves with guns, I would hate having to run around with a gun in holster!
    But perhaps some of you would think I’m irresponsible not travelling armed 24/7, if someone attacked my granddaughter I would be unable to defend her!

    As for Obama & the US, – it’s not a theocracy or a dictatorship.

  158. Hi Andrew,

    I greatly appreciate what you wrote in this article. I think the situation could be clarified if we didn’t describe who (people) and what (systems) is opposed to Christ and his teachings as “Christian” (which I think is close to the point you are trying to make). Instead I think we should just use the scriptural term: antichrist and antichrists.

    Having guns to kill people with is antichrist because Christ said not to resist evildoers and to love our enemies. People who promote that and get caught up in that are therefore antichrists.

    Saluting flags, signing worship songs to your country and other acts of nationalistic idolatry are antichrist because Christ said we could only serve one master and that his kingdom is not of this world. People who promote that and get caught up in that are therefore antichrists.

    Supporting worldly systems of power through politics is antichrist because Jesus said “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall NOT be so among you.” People who promote that and get caught up in that are therefore antichrists.

    We can’t mix true Christianity and nationalism. It isn’t that we shouldn’t. It just can’t be done. Jesus defines what is Christianity, not us. We all need to realize that we can get in line with Jesus and his kingdom now and be concerned with the things that matter to Jesus or we can get in line with the ruler of this world and his systems and be concerned with the things that matter to him. We can sing all the songs we want, call ourselves Christian until we are blue in the face and read our Bible every day but if we are focused on the things of this world, we are not members of Jesus’ kingdom. We may be seeking his kingdom or near to his kingdom but that will only benefit us if we actually forsake this world and join Jesus’ kingdom.

    Jesus said “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.”

    Wake up apostate/Evangelical “Christianity”. The ax is laid to the root of the tree. Unless you bear fruit in keeping with repentance you will be cast into the eternal fire no matter how many times you have prayed a sinner’s prayer.

  159. I think that this is a fascinating subject. Absolutely fascinating. I really appreciate everyone’s views. I am not in the habit of posting in forums, but this article really made me think.

    Most of my life, I have been anti-gun, disliking firearms intensely. In 1990, my husband became law enforcement for a large city. I hated having those ‘things’ in the house. I would not touch them. If he asked me to bring him his service revolver, I would carry it like it was poisonous. Overtime, I have become more comfortable around firearms. Only recently have I learned how to use them.This has been a help to me so that I am not so afraid. We live rurally with livestock that needs to be defended so it is best to know how to use the tools we have to protect our animals.

    At the risk of being stereotypical, women are life givers and nurturers. But men are meant to be protectors, hunters, gatherers. God put it in their genes to stand between the antagonist, in order to save his family. Police don’t arrive until the crime is complete and the damage done. I appreciate having a strong defender at home in case a violent intruder break in.

    If I were caught in a volatile scenario where some armed criminal was on the scene, I would be glad to have my husband there to protect everyone involved. And he would, even if it meant his own life. I am certain about that. More than a life-taker, he is one who is ready to give up his life in order to save yours, or anyone else, for that matter.

    What my husband helped me to understand two decades ago, is that the 2nd amendment wasn’t about hunting. Of course, you already know that, but at that time, I did not understand. It is about protecting. Here is a fictional scenario. I think that our founding fathers were thinking somewhat along this line. Today, because our of our many war fronts, most of our armed forces are overseas. Many of our National Guard are over there as well. Let’s say, in this fictional situation, a standing army of another nation invaded our country. How could are armed forces make it back in time? It is like the police, they wouldn’t arrive until the after the harm is done. But, with an armed citizenry, there would be a chance that we could defend ourselves. A chance. This would include firearms of all kinds. If this would ever happen, everyone, whether you would use a fire arm yourself or not, would be thankful for each one who stood up to protect our country and her inhabitants. That is what the 2nd amendment is about.

    People say, “Let God defend me.” And He might. There were some Christians that escaped in China, Russia, Germany, Uganda, etc. The precious saints that didn’t escape are with Jesus. We know that our soul is hidden in Him. He has purchased us, we are His precious possessions. Anyway, as I was considering this article, I was thinking about how the Lord has called us to take care of what He has given us. We have livestock. We feed them and clean up after them. We feed our families, we don’t wait for it to happen because the Lord promises takes care of us. We are participants, doing the duties required of us. Doing these secular and menial activities, are part of being a servant of the home and, they are also a spiritual act of worship.

    The Lord has given us this country and we are to take care of her, too. We live here and we are to do our part to maintain her. There are different kinds of vessels. For some, it is defense, defense of the home from ‘lions and tigers and bears, oh my’ as well as two legged varmints who would break down doors and harm or kill women and children, and defense of our nation.

    Many times I have said, “I don’t think that I could shoot anyone.” People would reply, “If they were coming after your children, you would.” I really didn’t know if I could. Hopefully, I will never have to choose. It is a terrible choice, made only in the moment of desperation. I hope that i am never faced with that. If someone was trying to rape me and I got my hand on a knife, would I stab him? I might. Or would I lay there compliantly? We don’t know what we will do when the adrenaline is rushing in. For many of us, this is not an area that has been tried.

    May the Lord give us wisdom for each circumstance, especially as this age presses in on us, to react in a way that honors the Lord and brings Him glory.

  160. Chaplain Jim Dyer Jan 18th 2013

    As a retired Navy Commander who served this country for 23 plus years, I am somewhat taken back at your comments. I have taken my oath at least 3 times to support and defend the Constitution of this country and being military minded I know the importance of being armed and capable of defending oneself.

    You seem to forget that America was won (established) with a rifle in one hand and the Bible in the other. My experience in warfare is simply this, to make the enemy die for his country BEFORE he makes me die for mine.

    I was saved in the US military 41 years ago and proud that I served. This is not being of proud spirit either. Yes, I salute the flag, it means something to me. Just like the the standards (flags) did for each of the 12 tribes.

    Why do you think the Book of Numbers was called thusly? Because the people were numbered for the draft. Perhaps you have never served in the military Andrew.

    I’m not checking out of this life early Andrew, not before my time is up and I do have much to do before God calls me home, but I will defend my home, my wife of 45 years and whosoever is in my home or elsewhere when it comes down to it. If you choose not to do so, for whatever reasons, that’s your choice. I speak for myself. The government, nor anyone else is going to take my weapons as I am a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution a document which references the OT numerous times in it’s writings.

    JWD
    CDR, USNR (Ret)

  161. DP Heimbold Jan 18th 2013

    Quoting KrisAnne Hall below for Andrew’s edification:

    In true teleprompter form, King Barry delivered his royal decree on gun control. It is amazing to me the blind ignorance that so infects Washington DC. The framers of this nation made THEIR position very clear on gun ownership and the DUTY of a free people to keep and bear arms. It is very tempting to go through the King’s pronouncement line by line, but for the sake of brevity, I will restrain myself. I am going to focus only on the Second Amendment, but we must be aware that everything presented in the 23 “executive actions” are completely unconstitutional. The federal government does not have the power to fund research, the States, their law enforcement or even operate the ATF. Those are all powers that remain with the States through the 10th Amendment and there has NEVER been a constitutional amendment to change that.
    What seems to elude those who are willing to jump on board the gun control train is the very principle and purpose our framers had in mind when drafting the Second Amendment. Knowing what the drafters said is essential to knowing why the King’s declarations are not only unconstitutional but also anti-liberty.

    The fundamental principle behind the Second Amendment is actually pretty simple: it is the duty of the PEOPLE to preserve Liberty and to do so they MUST keep and bear arms. King Barry said he supports the Second Amendment for hunters and sportsmen and personal protection. Problem is, Barry, the framers said lots of things about our duty to keep and bear arms and NONE OF THEM had to do with hunting or sport or protections from the mugger.

    George Mason: “When the resolution of ENSLAVING America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised to disarm the people that it was the best and most effectual way to ENSLAVE them; but that they SHOULD NOT DO IT OPENLY, but WEAKEN them and let them SINK GRADUALLY…”

    Barack Obama: “Require universal background checks for all firearm sales. Reinstate and strengthen the ban on assault weapons. Limit ammunition magazines to 10 rounds. Ban possession of armor-piercing ammunition by anyone other than the military and law enforcement. Eliminate restrictions that force the ATF to authorize importation of certain firearms because of their age.” Translation: Let’s make them sink gradually.

    Noah Webster: “The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the WHOLE BODY of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops…A military force at the command of Congress,can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power; and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.”

    Barack Obama: “I believe the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms. I respect our strong tradition of gun ownership and the rights of hunters and sportsmen. There are millions of responsible, law-abiding gun owners in America who cherish their right to bear arms for hunting or sport or protection or collection.” Translation: Bearing arms has nothing to do with me…just the deer in the field or the robber entering your home.

    Richard Henry Lee (Federal Farmer #18): Whereas to PRESERVE LIBERTY, it is essential that the WHOLE BODY of the people ALWAYS possess arms…The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder TRUE REPUBLICANS are for carefully guarding against it.

    Barack Obama: “Ban possession of armor-piercing ammunition by anyone other than the military and law enforcement. Reinstate and strengthen the ban on assault weapons.” Translation: Only the government can keep and bear arms unless I DECLARE otherwise.

    In summary, the writers of the Second Amendment intended all the people to always bear arms to:

    1. Keep from becoming slaves to a central government;

    2. To keep the central government from enforcing unjust, unconstitutional, and oppressive laws;

    3. To preserve Liberty and protect our Constitutional republic from men who operate to remove Liberty.

    Barack Obama believes the Second Amendment is for:

    1. Hunting, sport, protection, and collection;

    2. Law enforcement officers;

    3. The military in war (not when they come home);

    4. Federal government agents unless otherwise declared by the federal government.

    You CANNOT preserve Liberty by compromising the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment reads “the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.” That literally means the government is completely forbidden to violate or transgress the peoples’ right to bear arms. Yet the King wants us to believe that it is a matter of “common sense” to allow the central government to decide who and on what terms the people can bear arms. Do you see how that is contrary to the very core of the Second Amendment? The King says he is going to “direct the U.S. attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun and make recommendations to ensure dangerous people aren’t slipping through the cracks.” I thought we were trying to make sure only criminals didn’t own guns. Now the government wants a new classification, “dangerous people”. I’m sure the King and his court will be ready and willing to pronounce the definition of “dangerous”. Who are the “dangerous” people today? Who will they be tomorrow? But then where does the compromise end? Because when you are completely forbidden to do something and then you get permission to do it just a little bit, you are no longer COMPLETELY forbidden, you are CONDITIONALLY forbidden. Conditions, as well as definitions, in the eyes of the government, are always mutable.

    If you have heard or read the King’s diktat, he has warned you that the argument of Liberty would be presented; how very Alinsky of him. His denunciations of the founders’ intent and the principles that make this nation great are merely tactic and have no credibility. He speaks from lies and emotional propaganda…the founders taught from historical experience and timeless principles. But I am just the messenger, so you must make your own decisions. As for me and my family, we stand with G. Mason, N. Webster, R.H. Lee and the men who sacrificed for Liberty. You may, however, choose to stand with those who only stand on avarice, ambition, and constitutional destruction. I leave you one last testimony from each side, a closing argument if you please:

    Barack Obama: “If parents and teachers, police officers, and pastors, if hunters and sportsman, if responsible gun owners, if Americans of every background stand up and say, enough. We’ve suffered too much pain, and care too much about our children to allow this to continue, then change will — change will come.”

    Daniel Webster: “Is the Constitution worth preserving? Guard it as you would the seat of your life; guard it not only against the open blows of violence, but also against that spirit of change.”

    In other words, Andrew, it is the duty of United States Citizens to bear arms. Amazing that you would side with Commie King Obama
    and call it being a Christian. You are deceived.

    DPHeimbold,USA

  162. I am attending all of the second amendment rallies available and I am an avid shooter but i never mix up my Constitution and Bill of rights with the Bible or my love for God. Our second amendment in America is apart of out Bill of Rights which itself is a defining the Constitution in clear terms. We realize the the Anti-Christ Obama needs to destroy our Constitution in order to destroy America, America already has concentration (FEMA) camps set up all over this Nation Ronald Reagan made sure of that (rex 84), we have threat fusion centers, drone bases with flying drones, and according to the Obama bill timeline our Government will start chipping people with the right hand computer chip this year. So the Government hits the Bible when it becomes the Government the Bible said was coming. i know what has to happen and what must come to pass, but I will still resist evil. So when King Obama goes after any of our constitution we will stand up and resist which we primarily do by showing everyone what the Bible says about these times and what it means to them, but we do attend rallies but we are not rude to people. No doubt you have heard of Sherriff Mueller who has taken a stand against Obama’s tyranny. Tim Mueller lives not far from me, Tim is a good man and a believer, he isn’t standing because he is in love with guns, he is standing because he is being confronted with evil, and even though you pray for those who persecute you it is still right to stand against evil. Otherwise all the first Church Christians should have turned themselves in to Nero and Hadrian, and even earlier Peter and Steven should have never preached in a way that enraged their opponents(you mean they had opponents?) And Peter should have never carried his ‘Glock’ as instructed by Jesus to the Garden. Though peter should not have used it against the working of Gods will.
    As far as gun violence vs defense in America if I see a child being beaten by someone I could not physically stop and I have a gun, I don’t ask the question who would Jesus kill, I just stop the bad guy, first by verbal request with the gun in hand, and then if necessary by force itself. Taking guns away from a society means that now the strong and criminal can overpower the weak and defenseless without any fear of resistance(the opposite of civilized). To me it is evil to leave people powerless to stop tyranny. Right now Americans are being launched into straight up evil, and we are going to say something about it and let our voice be heard.
    I stood before my Countrymen and declared Todd Bentley to be evil,..because he is, i stood against the Elijah list, And I will stand against Redding, Kansas City, and Toronto, and I typically do it by speaking to them and trying to show them the truth and error of their ways. So don’t think I am not going to raise my voice to the anti christ,..I am and I will.
    As far as American Nationalism,…dude,…you are so jealous for this place it is sick. Your in New Zealand thats where God put you, you’ve got an entire Nation go get them! Also I can see that Austrailia, Fiji, and many of the Islands are also there for you to speak to,…go get them. But why you want to involve yourself in Americas politics and make it sound as if it is because you have our spiritual wellfare in mind,… ridiculous. I think you just want to be back in those American pulpits with the fantasy of having them respond to you the people did to Evan Roberts during the welsh revival(I know you want to go there too)
    9/11, Oklahoma City, Sandy hook, and many other US scandals are false flag terror designed to cause Americans fall to their knees in fear and surrender any rights they have to the Government. This is an evil plan where many people are being killed by our own Government in an operation Gladio styled operation of evil. Which we deserve for allowing over 50 million unborn children to be slaughtered so we could have an even more decadent life than we already have,…and thats just the Church. The truth is I think most American Christians have a better handle on this than you think. lets remember that God gave Americans America and blessed it more than any other Nation, part of that blessing is the Constitution and Bill of Rights that God designed in mens hearts with a wisdom that understood how to quelch tyranny before it began. Well tyranny has begun,…it isn’t about guns, it’s about the loss of our Nation. After all America is one of three horns that will be uprooted after that you get to enjoy king Tyranny and his bag of evil tricks, then you get to have all the fun we are having right now.

  163. Limey Pastor Jan 18th 2013

    America was born in rebellion and is a country of rebels. God save the queen.

    *sips tea*

  164. Please read the whole Word of God!

    Jesus told His disciples, “Sell your coat & buy a sword,(a gun today)

    Obviously, Peter carried a sword to cut the slave’s ear off!

    God told Israel, “Every Man from 20 -50 will be in the army.”

    Bash America all you want, but our Founding Fathers built our nation based on the Bible & historically we have been a Blessing to the whole world.

    No other county in the world have sent millions of their young men to die for other nations.

    Judge our Nation by our 250 yr history, not the last 20!

    Ungratefulness & back biting is truly pathetic!

    I used to think that you were Spirit led, boy was I fooled!

    Good bye,

  165. IF we truly do not FOLLOW the sermon on the mount
    we are NOT of HIM.
    HIS words are truth eternal. Mans wisdom is foolishness.
    MANY must again with the first love upon hearts,
    pick up the cross, die daily to the flesh and reasonings of men.
    AND as a babe BELIEVE and trust ONLY JESUS.
    NOW tonights reading should be on the sermon on the mount.
    mathew 567
    then realize, Christ never defended himself
    HE PRAYED for HIS ENEMIES
    THEN read in acts about stephen……
    WHO did not live by the sword, carnal weapons.
    and NOT only did he ALLOW his enemies to KILL HIM
    HE PRAYED their forgivness.
    IF we cannot FORGIVE from the heart our enemies
    THE LOVE of GOD is not in us.
    FOR HE reconclied US, while enemies……….
    NEVER should a christain pick up a gun to defend himself.
    THEY should passively let their enemies kill them.
    and pRAY only for the forgiveness of thier enemies.
    MANY are going to say to CHRIST on that day………..
    And many will be cast OUT.
    WE had all better come back to the FIRST LOVE
    cast all affections above. AND our fight
    is not against flesh and blood. TIS against spiritual wickedness.
    IF my kingdom were of this WORLD, then i would FIGHT
    against them. MY KINGDOM is NOT of this world………….
    BUT one day………………….ONE day
    AT the coming of the LORD………………………
    THEN …………………HIS KINGDOM . and no more
    tears, no more suffereing, no more pain…….
    FOR all who endure faithful till the end………………..
    for those who LOSE their life for the gosples sake……..
    THE REWARD shall be great. TRUST as a child
    ONLY GOD and live by his EVERY WORD.
    STAND uppon the ROCK………….trust nothing else
    for all else is sinking sand. AMEN>

  166. I’ve always had a great deal of respect for you Andrew but on this we differ. You did not grow up here in America. Your viewpoint is one of British descent.

    I respect the position of President and pray for whomever is in office regardless. Period. He is the PRESIDENT. He is not KING. You are from a mindset of royalty being a British subject. No one would ever consider saying an unkind word about Queen Elizabeth that lives in British controlled countries. You are also fortunate that she would never considering doing anything to disrespect her role.

    I have spoken with Christian immigrants who are praying for our country and would stand by and defend it as well. One of my friends is a Coptic Christian who fled Egypt for his very life. He is a doctor. He tells me all the time, “This very great country MUST NOT FAIL!” Like it or not, America is a beacon of hope for people of faith because it is a land where freedom to express religion began. That is why the Pilgrims fled to this country. There was religious oppression in ENGLAND.

    If this country fails, hope will go out in the hearts of a lot of other countries. We are looked at by other Christians in oppressed countries as a beacon of hope in the world.

    While you never unfailingly begin to rag us over the trash on tv, which we also despise, that is imported from our country to yours, may I remind you that some of the writers, producers, etc, that are behind some of that trash came from New Zealand to America where they found the resources and backers to make that trash. So remember when you sling mud at my country, you have mud on you as well and are losing ground.

    We are making a stand to defend our 2nd Amendment, which was written by our forefathers to enable us to stand within our own boundaries and defend ourselves against a tyrannical government. We have watch as our President, who swore to defend our country, is slowly but surely eroding our very freedoms and foundations upon which this country was founded.

    51% of of registered voters in America are not for what happened nor were they for our President being elected again but nevertheless he is now our President.

    While you are so busy always saying we are under severe judgement realize that Lot asked for Sodom and Gomorrah to be spared even down to a few people and God would have allowed it. Do you seriously think that if we have 51% in the country that is against what is happening that God won’t consider that?? Even if only 28% were really praying on their knees in the word, do you seriously think that God would ignore that?

    You are so eager to always condemn us. We have stood. We have prayed for revivial. We have rent our hearts and stood in the middle of this while you have judged us.

    Instead of constantly bad mouthing us, why don’t you rally the troops worldwide to pray. If America ends as we have known it never to be again, God help the rest of the Christians in the world. We won’t be there to bail them out as we always have. We are not God nor do we even pretend to be but HE put us in a position to help others the world over. I do not believe that will return void. I trust HIS judgement and HIS mercy over yours.

  167. Oh and while I do not own a gun, I have something far greater in my arsenal. I have the Word of God. I stand on it for my defense. I’ve backed men off my porch using the Word. My ex husband was trying to choke me to death and when I spoke the Name of Jesus he was pushed off me and began to apologize. I’m NOT afraid of what mere man can do to me. I stand on Revelation 12:11 New International Version (©1984)
    They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

    So I’m standing on the Word as I always have. However, if I had to take up arms to defend my country I would but until that time comes I’m fighting hard as it says in Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. My only request, Andrew, is that instead of condemning us you would stand alongside of us and fight the good fight as well so we will never have to take up arms. If we can get it fought out in the spiritual realm it will never have a chance to manifest in the physical. Remember that!!

  168. Ivan Poulter Jan 18th 2013

    Singing louder, while Jews were screaming on the train going to the gas chambers was a Christian activity. The LIKE occurs in our day.

    Christians, do not occupy till He returns. They are irresponsible, much like German Christian legislatures made laws for Hitler; German Christian Judges enforced the laws for Hitler; German police arrested people for Hitler; and German Christians pulled the gas levers, killing the Jews.

    For the most part, Christians are blind pacifists, willingly surrendering to the EVIL forces in the world.

  169. About four years ago my Lord and Father delivered and set me free through two pastors who were visiting the USA, one of whom was and still is a missionary in Columbia.
    He does not carry a gun. He has five children, the youngest whom is only three. There are shootings on the streets, into the front of their home, and school they run for children and if they rarely take the car out its goes from the underground parking and back in again, very quickly. Yet no gun. When the Lord called him from a police officers work there to Pastor a Church and school, he left his gun behind.

    I was reading the above comments and my heart was just filled with such sadness bc I am looking at what is (supposed to be) the Bride of Christ.
    Our union with Christ is what brings eternal fruit into our Father’s Kingdom.
    We were bought and paid for with a price, We do not belong to ourselves, We are no longer born of this earth, but born of the spirit of God, with a heavenly Father and a Holy Spirit to guide and lead us. We have ALL that He said we have. Wisdom, Truth, Healing in our hands.

    The issue arises when we live out of our flesh, more than out of our spirit. When you live out of your spirit, you allow your Teacher, the Holy Spirit to guide you, to lead you and you invite Jesus to go before you. You are no longer clothed in Yourself , but rather you are Clothed in HIM. This is what it means to be a Christian. When they have seen YOU they have seen the Father.
    It is in this way, that we minister, witness and produce eternal Fruit for our heavenly Father. It is what Christ paid the price for. We are not our own. We belong to Him. God is love. Love does turn the other cheek and Love does not carry guns.
    Decide this day whom you will serve.
    I would like to challenge each one of you, close your eyes for a minute, imagine standing in the heavenlies, before your Creator, Millions of angels and the saints all around. And your God flashes up before you and your children and your wife or husband, your mom and dad, he flashes up on that enormous television screen your life, all the times you did not trust in Him for your source, your protection, and your comfort. All the times he said trust in me and lean not on your own understanding and with your mouth you confessed it but with your heart you spoke even louder. I trust you God. I do, but not enough to really trust you, so I am carrying this gun Lord, in case , just in case..
    It is going to be a frightening day when many of us stand before Him. There will be much weeping and confusion and protesting and wails of regret. Such wails of regret knowing that the time for change is lost – forever.

    We were choosen and ordained even before we were born. Our Father KNEW us when we were still in our mother’s wombs. Each one of us was ordained and choosen to preach the gospel, lay hands on the sick so they will recover, cast out devils, deliver the oppressed, open the eyes of the blind and unlock the ears of the deaf. We were not called to do anything OTHER than what our Teacher, the Holy spirit instructs us to do.
    If you are not in the business of doing the above, I plead to employ your Teacher the Holy Spirit, pray in tongues much, allow Him to renew your mind from this world system and its thoughts and ways and be washed in His word from the evil we live in the midst of . If we act like the world, talk like the world and respond like the world, we belong to the world and not to Him.

    I would like to finally say, it is when we trust in Him, in the face of fear, in the face of oppression, in the face of violence, You will see what HE CAN DO FOR YOU and it will be a testimony to those around your, those whom you percieve as your enemies and whom our Father weeps for, those whom He created and knew before they were born, He knew them also in their mothers wombs, and called them also. We are His hands and feet, His hands did not carry a gun. He hung on a cross, naked in front of His condemers, Naked. Hanging there, being spat on and He never called His angels for help, He never smote them with His thoughts, He was subdued, He was our example, He became our brother and made His Father ours.

    We cannot belong to two systems.
    It is a deception. It is false. It has nothing to do with patriotism. It has everything to do with Fear.
    Perfect love casts out fear. Fill yourself with Him, In speaking his word, talking and walking with Him, and abiding in Him, you will be covered in such a peace that fear will leave you. You will not need a gun. You will put your arms around the one with the gun and say “Father” and because you have been in His presence all the day long , He will minister to that lost one holding the weapon.

    The Time is short, the door is closing so quickly. We are soon going to answer for a lifetime of our disobedience(sin)- not trusting Him and not dying to self and self ‘s will and self’s control, and self’s wants and self’s needs… The separation of the chaff from the wheat is so near. Be diligent that your oil is not empty and that you are not taken by surprise. When He returns will he still find Faith (Faith means to AGREE WITH HIM)

    In the days ahead ,You are not going to be clothed in yourself thinking that God is going to move through you…. You are going to be clothed in Him. The training is now my brothers and sisters. The training began some time ago. Who is on board?

  170. Marianne Merwick Jan 18th 2013

    Andrew,
    You are in a dream world. Maybe New Zealand is free of home invaders, but
    the US and the rest of the world are not.
    There are ‘sleeper cells’ of Muslims and Hispanics in every US city waiting to strike at the nod of a head.
    You may have the faith to believe for the Lord’s protection from all who would love to disembowel you,
    rape your wife and daughter (and sons) and then dismember them, but please remember – Jesus told His disciples to get swords (the weaponry of the day). Also, if you read the Bible from cover to cover you will start to recognize that warfare starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation.
    Count the battles fought – that is human history!!! Mao confiscated the guns then murdered 80 million of his countrymen! Hitler confiscated the guns and murdered about 10 million Jews, Christians and others. The Bolsheviks disarmed Russia and proceeded to slaughter millions. North Korea was a very Christian nation with pastors that encouraged their flocks to ‘look up, Jesus is coming soon – don’t worry!”
    Then monstrous atrocities against Christians and millions tortured and murdered – all they could find -from 1945 to this day.
    Andrew, read history and learn about the wickedness of human hearts and perhaps you will stop making stupid remarks
    about Christians arming themselves. Read about the Waldenses, the Moravians, the Anabaptists, and the horrors they
    went through because the R.C.s shamed them into being doormats while they slaughtering them. Read the Old Testament – when His righteous people fought He fought on their behalf! The reason our
    country is the mess it is in is due to the pansy pastors (who promote the ‘love’ doctrine)
    who refuse to train their flocks in spiritual warfare against the wicked – to use Biblical prayers and weapons of our warfare
    which are not carnal mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds!
    Our Christian forefathers traveled everywhere armed and were not afraid to use their weapons! When they went to church they put their muskets by the door – at the ready!!! They knew what tyranny was because they faced it in Europe with the RCs.
    The churches now are not ‘salt and light’ so they will be cast out and trodden under foot. (We had to stop going to the ‘churches’ so we would not be brainwashed anymore with carnal, unBiblical trash!
    You, sir, need to repent for not even recognizing what on this earth is going on!!! In case you don’t know, Christians are the
    numero uno, #1 target of the luciferian globalists because they know what would happen if Christians did serious intercession,binding of devils and spiritual warfare. But, guess what – there are pastors that are working with the globalists to hand their congregations over to them and will take them to FEMA camps for reeducation or death.
    My purpose in writing this is to WAKE YOU UP!
    Marianne Merwick

  171. Jim Guenther Jan 18th 2013

    Thanks Andrew for bringing things back into focus. I am guilty of watching these matters too close and loosing perspective. Thanks again and God bless!

  172. Hi All
    This is very much an issue Christians need to discuss. The bible is very clear about our responsability to defend our family. Thou shalt not murder is very different from thou shalt not defend thyself. The law even stipulates that if one kills an intruder in the night they are free from the law. But to kill in the day was contrary to the law. This is saying that one instance is killing for defence but the other is murder with intent. Jesus advocates having protection for oneself, however, when peter attacked and cut the ear of the arresting company he was rebuked. This is because Jesus was being legally, (however injustly) arrested. Hence the if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. Also, Jesus said that if you are preaching the gospel and are attacked you should run. This indicates that self defence only applies when you are not preaching or teaching the word.
    Lastly, only 2 disciples had swords. I woould take this to mean that only these were capable of defending with lethal force. The others simply could not. Much like some Christians would feel sick at the thought of using lethal force for defence, while for others it is ok.
    Look at the motive. Do you kill for hate (which is murder) or do you want to simply protect your family. (which is advocated in several places in the word of God.)
    Thanks
    Wes

  173. Judith Eddy Jan 18th 2013

    AMEN Andrew! Thank you for writing what I believe is truth. Well said!
    Jesus said just before He was crucified that if His Kingdom was of this world they couldn’t touch/kill Him
    ( my paraphrase).
    I live in the USA and was born here but when I was born again I exchanged my citizenship here and was placed into God’s Kingdom and am a member of the royal family by adoption ~ though I temporarily still live in this country.
    Abraham, Moses, and most importantly our Savior Jesus as well as many others lived here in this world but were not of it. Hebrews 11 shouts it out.
    I see a Kingdom not made with hands that will replace this world system and I believe that we are often fighting the wrong battles due to our lack of repentance personally. We want to have God “bless” our agendas but He happens to be God THE Sovereign of the universe. He is NOT our servant! Jesus came as a servant and did Father’s will for which we are forever grateful but He is no longer our “servant” if I can say it that way due to Jesus’ words at the footwashing at the Last Supper. He is King of kings and Lord of Lords! He is GOD! The Holy Spirit is not our servant either! He is GOD!
    Where did God say He needed our assist?? Orders Remain Unchanged…

    Personally I am not against people owning weapons of defense to protect their families. Paul had an armed guard to keep him from being killed by the angry Jews before he could reach Rome did he not? He did not say there was a problem with that. I think the attitude and motivation matters. Not all believe that a big angel will keep them from harm should an intruder break in! We are all at different levels of faith but we should not stop where we are! Faith is a fruit of the spirit which can grow as well as a gift. The scriptures are full of examples of the Lord’s protection. It’s in the Covenant and the New Covenant far surpasses the Old ! The problem I see is if we are the Lord’s Bride/Body why are we so adamant about defending ourselves when HE is our defense? What loving father or husband would NOT protect their child or spouse?
    Lots of presumption passes for “faith” in the church today. The servants of the Lord are not to strive. There is sufficient evidence in the churches that whether we believe in having weapons or not that we need to grow in our trusting the Lord to defend us. As far as the laws about owning certain types of weapons, when I was young my boyfriend at the time, who was also a drug dealer, sold AK47′s and asst. guns out of the trunk of his cadillac. No laws will stop that practice…And one more thing. Most likely demons are behind the mental illness of these killer/suicides and needed to be cast OUT! Just saying…Cheers, Judi

  174. Much has been said here about the Christians “rights”.When we became Christians, we gave up all our rights to God. 2Co 5:15 “and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.”
    Also, we are now ambassadors for Christ. 2Co 5:20 “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ”. An ambassador of the U.S. to another country does not have allegiences to that country but rather his own. As christians our allegience must be only to the kingdom of God, There is no room for nationalism.

  175. Andrew, I can understand how your viewpoint is pacifist. But the sword of “holier than thou” judgement you used to slice and dice American Christians seemed to fuel your own carnal desire to hurt and be divisive with each strike you took. While to you, not feeling too patriotic of your own nation that was born out of being a penal colony is understandable. But we believe that God gave us this nation so that we could have religious freedom to see the Gospel preached into all the world. God uses human agency for his will to be done as also does Satan. When we Christians have the courage to preach against abortion, immorality, murder, theft, etc…and be good stewards with the form of government that God gave us (Rom 13:1 “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”) by participating in our Republic…it is more biblical than if we let evil rule. If you cannot see that the hand of God uses America to hold back the evil chaos of spiritual wickedness in high places, then how can you hear from God? “A man that does not take care of his own is worse than an unbeliever.” The Lord did not tell the Centurion to stop being a Roman Soldier, and throw down his arms. Nor did Peter tell Cornelius he had to resign as a soldier. When we in America, give unto Caesar that which is his”, our Caesar is not a sinful President, or any man, by our Constitution “We the People” are the God ordained power. When God decides to stop using us for this purpose, he will speak to us as he always has. You are the one who needs to be rebuked. Consider it done in The Name Of Jesus!

  176. Deborah Jan 18th 2013

    As a Christian living in America, I can say you are right on about Christianity in America being the same as American Nationalism. Too many of the Christians even think I’m bordering on being anti-American for my views. As the Bible says, I will strive to keep Him as my first love/priority and not the ‘things of this world’ (which includes America or any other nation). Thank you, brother!

  177. Andrew Jan 18th 2013

    It is because I love America that I write the things I write.

    From many of these replies I can see that it is too late – and that the USA seems determined to tear itself apart – the Christians doing much of the “tearing”.

    Very sad.

    -Andrew Strom.

  178. Arnold Jan 18th 2013

    how can you be so totally wrong. God has granted us the ability to defend our lives, our families and our nation from those sworn to destroy America and the good things God has given to us. Does this nullify faith? No. Is this an idol—perhaps it may be for those who dont know him but those i know that own a weapon dont idolize them–they own it for protection. That all said, it may the Lord taking away these rights because of the sin of the land has mounted up to the heavens. He WILL remove every crutch and idol (and so be it) if thats what it takes for America and its citizen and leaders to repent before God (most importantly the Christians). Perhaps it means loosing everything for us to learn to repent…lets hope not. In the meantime, I thank the Lord that those who choose to bear arms, may do so. Since you live in NZ you do not have that option.

  179. Well said, Andrew

    John 18:36 Yahushua answered, “My kingdom doesn’t belong to this world. If it did, my followers would have fought to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. No, my kingdom doesn’t belong to this world.” OR
    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. OR
    John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom does not belong to this world; if my kingdom belonged to this world, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. No, my kingdom does not belong here!” OR
    John 18:36 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου· εἰ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἦν ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμή, οἱ ὑπηρέται ἂν οἱ ἐμοὶ ἡγωνίζοντο, ἵνα μὴ παραδοθῶ τοῖς ᾿Ιουδαίοις· νῦν δὲ ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐντεῦθεν. OR
    John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” OR
    John 18:36 Yahushua answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.
    I put the Greek text in for those who don’t understand English. Mat 16:24 Then Yahushua said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That’s CROSS Christians (followers of Christ) not GUNS.!

  180. I’m a not particularly “patriotic” Christian but I love and appreciate the U.S. and can easily see God’s divine Hand throughout our history despite serious flaws like slavery and Native American genocide.
    I am a woman who owns a few guns and knows how to properly handle and shoot them.
    You ask, who would a Christian shoot?
    I would shoot a drug crazed, jacked up criminal who invaded my home and was threatening my children’s lives.

  181. Daniel Caleb Jan 18th 2013

    *Sigh* Nobody read what I wrote about Luke 22:35-38 did they? Jesus was not telling his followers to become militant (otherwise He would have contradicted His own teaching). You twist the word of God to your own hurt. The point of buying swords was to fulfill the Scripture of Jesus being numbered among transgressors (Luke 22:37). When Peter actually used the sword Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52) I would say one of Jesus’s most poignant lessons, and you have twisted it to make it seem as if He condones His followers being violent. Stop it, just stop!

  182. I cringe when I see Christians in America taking such issues to an extreme. However, I’m not only a Christian, I’m a citizen with a duty to my nation and my family. 1Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.” Along with food and shelter, safety, security, and protection are necessary provisions as well. I live in a nation that has historically protected the God-given right of citizens to own firearms as a matter of conscience if they so choose. When we see such liberties being threatened, it seems the duty of Christians and all citizens to peacefully assert their disagreement with any such action. But, guns or no guns, make the Lord your hope and stay.

  183. Andrew Jan 18th 2013

    I was not arguing against “self-defense”

    I was simply asking why the Christians are all screaming that they “must” be allowed ‘assault rifles’.

    Why is this “Christian”?

    -Andrew

  184. What you all need to do is stop making hypothetical situations to use as examples/excuses for violence etc and go to any one of the countries where christians are being persecuted & systematically butchered & abused & see how they are behaving and BE ASHAMED.

  185. Dear Andrew,

    I think it is very difficult if not impossible to LOVE someone you don’t KNOW. I know nothing about New Zealand—never lived there for any length of time and have no relationships with anyone living there.

    The more I spend time with Jesus, the more I know and love Him. The more I spend time with my wife the better I know and love her.

    Righteous and truthful communication is the MOST important thing in any relationship. Righteous communication seeks to find unity in division—we are righteous ONLY because He who is in us is righteous. Our unity can only be found in Christ and we know that “God is love.”

    So, now you say it’s because you love America you write these things that clearly elicit division (which is OK)—how well do you know us I wonder. I hope you only write these things because you are led by the Spirit to do so.

    Perhaps, the “love” gospel is used by the angel of light himself to make people so heavenly minded that they become neutered and indiscriminate in their earth suits. We no longer can see right and wrong because we cannot discriminate between an 87 year old grandma getting on a plane and some young Arab imam saying allah akbar. The government (i.e.,TSA) must treat them the same since we can no longer discriminate between people—true isn’t it !? We must love everyone and treat everyone the same—one world… Well have fun!

    There will be a new heaven and a new earth one day with no sin and no guns—but it ain’t now—and I believe only a remnant will be there. Only one of the two sides of the Real Issue will be there…

    I see folks passionate about constitutional rights/their country/gun control/a leader who is anti-Biblical with a religious worldview versus a Biblical worldview—I see these folks attacked in a sublime way simply by saying you feel sad for them—Wow!

    Andrew, If I say I feel sad for your comment—what good does it do?

    Blogging is a terrible way to communicate, but through all these comments—some GREAT points are being made on all three sides—the right side, the wrong side, and God’s side :-) The Spirit will use those according God’s will for those in Christ Jesus, Amen!

    Cheers—1Th 5:16-18

  186. I appreciate some of the comments on here by people who want to try to model their lives after Jesus and not Saul or David and who want to live by the laws that Jesus gave for his heavenly kingdom and not by the laws of a former earthly nation that were part of a lesser covenant.

    I would be interested in getting to know anyone on here who actually believes that Jesus has to be obeyed and that the sermon on the mount is actually meant to be taken seriously.

    To those who don’t believe that “do not resist an evildoer” and “do not store up treasure on earth” and “do not swear oaths” are actually COMMANDS that have to be taken seriously and obeyed without exception, I would be willing to talk with you about repentance and following the real Jesus, if you are interested.

    My email is joel2 at mawhorter dot org.

    in Christ,

    Joel

  187. First off, I agree Andrew with your comments, I am surprised at how many people either didn’t read, or misinterpreted what you said. You never as far as I read said that it was wrong to own guns. Just not to put our faith and hope in guns or gun laws. First I would like to say I am an American raised in a gun owning family. But I believe the issue is not really about owning guns or not owning guns it about the fervor which is truly based in fear. Fear of Obama fear for our security. When thing the Lord has shown me if you are responding to something out of fear, it’s not of him. He is bigger then anything the world or the enemy can throw at us.

    Second off I do a question of the day on my facebook page, I have both Christian and Non-Christians friends and the sad thing is it is much more civilized and polite that what I am seeing from the comments here, even my unbelieving friends wouldn’t be as rude as some of the comments that I have seen. This country does need a revival not to turn the hearts of the lost to Jesus, but to have his own people remember their first love.

  188. For the ones of you who have no room for nationalism…..I

  189. Oops. For the ones of you who are so against nationalism, I say there is plenty of room for you in North Korea. No guns there and so no need for nationalism. Just take some food with you from the USA, for you won’t get any there, and no Jesus,no bibles, no joy, and no nationalism necessary.

  190. Some other food for thought for Christians—gun toting or not……

    “There are few things quite so boring as being religious, but there is nothing quite so exciting as being a Christian!” –Major W. Ian Thomas

    “MOST FOLKS have never discovered the difference between one and the other, so that there are those who sincerely try to live a life they do not have, substituting religion for God, Christianity for Christ, and their own noble endeavors for the energy, joy, and power of the Holy Spirit. In the absence of reality, they can only grasp at ritual, stubbornly defending the latter in the absence of the former, lest they be found with neither!

    They are lamps without oil, cars without gas, and pens without ink, baffled at their own impotence in the absence of all that alone can make man functional; for man was so engineered by God that the presence of the Creator within the creature is indispensible to His humanity. Christ gave Himself for us to give Himself to us! His presence puts God back into the man! He came that we might have life—God’s life!

    THERE ARE THOSE FOLKS who have a life they never live. They have come to Christ and thanked Him only for what He did, but do not live in the power of who He is. Between the Jesus who “was” and the Jesus who “will be” they live in a Spiritual vacuum, trying with no little zeal to live for Christ a life that only He can live in and through them, perpetually begging for what in Him they already have!” –Major W. Ian Thomas (1924-2007)

  191. Joyce,

    I am sorry to read that your understand of Christ is so deficient as to focus so fully on this things of this world as though the worthless things and dying bodies that we all possess can be compared to the greatness of the kingdom of God.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if there are more true Christians in North Korea then in all of the USA and Canada combined.

    The cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches (the two main reasons people own guns, insurance, guard dogs, etc.) have choked out much of the small amount of true faith there has been in the Western world in the last few centuries.

    I would rather go to North Korea than to hell, which is the place assigned for those who reject the teachings of Jesus.

  192. This quote by Menno Simons on the new birth is just as relevant today as when he wrote it to a society of unconverted “Christians”:

    Now, perhaps, some may answer: Our belief is, that Christ is the Son of God, that his word is truth, and that he purchased us with his death and blood, and that we were regenerated in baptism, and received the Holy Ghost, therefore, we are the true church and congregation of Christ.

    We reply: If your faith is as you say, why do you not do the things which he has commanded you in his word? His command is, REFORM. BE YE CONVERTED. KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Now it is evident that you are becoming worse daily; that unrighteousness is your father, and wickedness, your mother, and the express command of the Lord is foolishness and derision to you. Since you will not do as he commands, or would have you do, but act as you choose, it proves sufficiently that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, although you say so. Nor do you believe that his word is truth; for faith and its fruits are inseparable, this you will all have to confess by the grace of God. O, you poor, blind men! be silent and blush, let Christ Jesus with his Spirit and word be your teacher and example, your way and your mirror. Do you think it will do only to acknowledge Christ according to the flesh? Or if you but say that you believe on him and are baptized; that you are christians, and that you are purchased with the blood and death of Christ? Ah no! I have told you often, and tell you again, you must be born of God; in your life you must be so converted and changed that you become new creatures in Christ, that Christ be in you, and you in Christ, or you can never be christians, for, “If any man be in Christ he is a new creature,” 2 Cor. 5:17.

  193. Oh Joel…

    I think Joyce shared a valid comment—one many can share!

    “KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS” you said; Joel, we have a New Command:

    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my my disciples, if you love one another,” John 13:34-35

    I can’t even really love my wife, but Christ in me can and does. And, He can love others through us. We should be careful about hitting people too hard with the Bible.

    Just so you know, I am passionate about ‘not infringing” the 2nd Amendment—period. That said I know and love Jesus—period. I am working on the New Command—but it’s hard as I have to die to self daily so He can act and speak through me as me… He died so I could live, I must die so He can live in me—it’s just that as living sacrifices, we keep crawling off the altar :-)
    Gal 2:20

  194. antipas4yahshua Jan 18th 2013

    I’ll try this one more time…..

    What is being proposed:
    Assault “STYLE” and high capacity magazines.
    NOTE THE WORD “STYLE”.
    Assault guns are ALREADY ILLEGAL.
    THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN “Assault”; and “Assault Style”
    (As usual the “father of lies” operates in a “gray area”.)

    This would effectively disarm America and open to Islam just as UK.

    If you have a moment take a look of a “real Isalm to Christian” brother@

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs4eVuFfqUs

    In addition, it has been on national news that Homeland Defense, National Guard, and Social Security has taken delivery of 20+million rounds of hollow points.
    The government authorities are arming up while moving toward disarming the public.

    If one studies the OT it clearly show the corrupt leaders as well as priests & prophets.

    Keep in mind, America has a Islamic president. This is not a slam but a well known fact.

    One doesn’t need a crystal ball to see that there is a attempt to bring Sharia law to America of which is a call to pray as well as bear arms “just like israel”.

    Consider this nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

    Pray and live “in Christ” moment by moment – this is one of the steps of how to enter the Kingdom of G_D.

  195. When i was on the farm we owned used and needed a .22 and a .22 magnum, Used for putting terminally ill farm animals out of their misery, and the destruction of vermin. Guns in those days were part of farming life, in our out-back cattle stations (ranches) they still are. But assault rifles !?
    That said i was not saved in those days!
    My understanding now is that a Christian life should be totally passive? Jesus set the example I believe there is no such thing as a “Christian army armed with man’s weapons” Sure we fight a war, but it is not a natural one, our weapons are not carnal, but supernatural, can we adopt any other view? And call it Christian? I guess each of us must ask that question of ourselves.
    The world’s problems are not solve d buy guns. But man’s nature being what it is if we could remove all firearms over night man would go to war with swords and spears. Andrew is right again!
    The bloody battles of the OT were a type of Christian warfare and the basic ingredient for us in the NT is LOVE “love your enemies, do good to those who hate us” down through the centuries there are countless examples of martyrs who “loved not their lives unto death” Jesus the prime example.
    Thank you Andrew.
    Pr Michael

  196. Marilyn Crow Jan 18th 2013

    The temporary appearance of `freedom,` is a deceiption. It is according to the world`s standards & not the truth. True freedom, which we would agree is only found in Christ. Freedom from sin by the blood of Jesus.

    Where on earth can you find , NO National, religious, racial, class, or gender conflict. Nowhere!!!!! We are selfish if we cannot see all around us, where ever we are, pain, suffering, conflicts & turmoil.

    The world`s cry, `Together we can change the world,` `Democracy equals freedom, `etc. Every system of man is ruled over by Satan. No signing of treaties, covenants or constitutions will bring peace or true freedom. Only the one with the biggest bomb can `lord it over,` for a time till the greatest deceiver comes with his peace plan.

    The word of God by His Spirit can reach people in all situations -brothels, prisons, on the street & even Nth Korea.

    The final battle for the truth is about our destination, our eternal inheritance -heaven & not this earth. The `war,` is not about `freedom & democracy,` but `freedom from sin in Jesus Christ.`

  197. Marilyn Crow Jan 18th 2013

    P.S. Thank you Andrew for your courage to stand for the truth.
    And it is encouraging to read of so many people who also agree.

  198. antipas4yahshua thank you for bringing up the topic of government ammunition.

    Hollow point rounds are against international law. Hollow point rounds gouge big holes in human flesh.

    The Department of Home Security has ordered Two Billion hollow point rounds. That’s more than six bullets for every American.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/dhs-adds-200-000-rounds-to-its-2-billion-round-stockpile

  199. Andrew Storm.
    I doubt you will ever read this but I am writing this anyway.
    Unlike those of you who have lived under the rule of kings and queens, we in The United States of America Have A Constitutional Right To Own Guns, Not to Hunt Deer, But To Defend Ourself From A Tyranical Government. Having a gun has nothing to do with being a born again Christian or not. It has everything to do with protecting the right to be free and that includes being a practiceing Christian Jew, or any other religion for that matter. In this country we still have the right to preach in our churches or synagogues that some thing are Sinfull such as Abortion and Homosexuality without being arrested and jailed as in Canada or England or another of the Socalist European nations.Our 2nd ammendment is what guarantees us the right of free speech given by the 1st ammendment. And it even gives antagonistic non Americans such as Piers Morgan the right to freely speak his folly.
    So Andrew I guess you would have gladly obeyed the Nazi’s and watched them extermanate millions while you preached pacifism to the dumbdowned German Lutherns and Catholics.You may notice I didn’t mention Baptists and Orthodox Catholics that’s because the Nazis terminated those undesirerables along with Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Dutch, French, Eastern Europeans of all nationalities. Bonhoffer was a German pastor and a believer in Christ and he died as a Christian German Patriot preaching against Hitler and his Nazi tryrany. Was he a deluded Christian? I think not but I think you are.
    Do you think it’s right that Christians being savagly murdered in Africa or elswhere should not defend themselfs and their families? Any man who would not defend his wife and children from the savage mob that cares nothing about human life because they are themself without human feelings is less than a man he is a coward hiding behind being a Christian. They will chop off the head of a woman just because she may have seemed to be immodest. She possibly smiled in public.
    As some have already suggested, pay attention to what is happening in your own country and let us handle our own issues in the United States of America. As has also been noted, our Gun Loving Christians have saved your bacon more than once and if it were not for the US Military you would be speeking Japanese and living as a slave of the Imperial Japanese Government whose emperor was a living god king. I wonder what kind of Christianity would exsist in New Zeland then? None.

  200. Spence Jan 18th 2013

    Andrew, I really respect you and have followed your ministry for some time now. But I I have to say I don’t agree with you on this stance you have taken. While I don’t agree with a lot you stated in this post, there is one topic which I REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND. While I understand that we should pray for our president, I don’t understand why you say we shouldn’t criticize him. I have read articles on your website that criticize people you do not agree with in the so called “prophetic” circles. I actually agree with you on those starments, but if seems a bit hypocritical to call people out by name that you don’t agree with, then tell us not to do the same about our president. It seems to me instead of speaking to the spiritual matter, you are just anti assault weapons. If you are, that’s ok. But please don’t mix your “political” stance with your “spiritual” stance. You contradict yourself when you do this. .

  201. Spence Jan 18th 2013

    And I just saw your post that said we “Christians” are tearing our nation apart??? Thanks for the support you are speaking! Just because some of us own weapons DOES NOT MEAN we are not devoted Christians. Again, you criticize what YOU want, but we can’t do the same?!?!? This is very disturbing. You are spiritualizing a political issue. Do you live here in the USA? Do you REALLY understand what is going on here? Have you talked to people (as I have) who are dedicated Christians that love and depend on God, yet refuse to let there government destroy their rights? Obviously not. I believe you are a good man and had the best of intentions to post your thoughts, but don’t just make a blanket statement that we Christians are “tearing this nation apart” without telling us at least exactly how & what you mean. It’s odd that you have such strong opinions (and I stress the word OPINIONS) about the US, but lets hear about your country’s government control and how thats worked out for your citizens. Again, you basically said “stop openly criticizing the president”. If that’s what you want, then stop criticizing so called Christian leaders that you don’t agree with. You do this often. I ask…WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE?!?!???

  202. JIm, with great respect, (and we are not ungrateful for the USA and the way God used you to help defeat Nazi Germany and the Japanese Imperial war machine WWII)
    “The most high God rules in mans kingdoms of men and gives it to whoever He will”
    Without God,s mercy – not just USA might, we would all be lost forever.
    I would also like to remind you that at Milne Bay and in the Jungles of PNG (Kokoda) it was Australian “chocolate soldiers” that inflicted the first defeat on the Japanese, also Australian troops were frequently used on a moonless night to go into occupied islands to soften up the resistance after the USA dawn landing had been repulsed, the Marines would then follow up at dawn take the island, and raise the Stars and Stripes, unfortunately this made many of our troops bitter!
    Victory was a joint allied effort, and we could not have been victorious without God and each other!
    Similarly our spiritual warfare requires training, discipline, dedication, courage, faith, unity in the Spirit. Faith which works by love, using the weapons of our warfare, spiritual ones.not carnal ones.
    Cheers and God Bless you and your country.
    Pr Michael

  203. Andrew Jan 18th 2013

    It is sad and amazing to me how few people actually READ CAREFULLY what I wrote before coming on and attacking me for things I never actually said.

    Please – before you attack me, I would love it if you truly ascertained what I actually wrote and what I did not write.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  204. As an Australian, I absolutely love America, and stand with the Body of Christ (as best I can) in this incredible spiritual battle raging over the people of this beautiful nation. I recognise the importance of freedom to the people of America. It is a value that underpins all western society, and as I understand, it has been birthed in America (and the rest of the world has been tremendously blessed as a result). We should not take that for granted when considering this debate. It is a passionate debate, and it seems believers there feel hard done by, in all that is happening in their nation.

    It is true that most believers outside of the States appear to sympathise with gun control. To me it appears many believers are being caught up in conspiracy and unbiblical agenda’s. That ain’t healthy, but those that see this shouldn’t criticise rather our response needs to be to pray for those that appear to be blinded.

    I can’t relate to a mindset of a government wanting to use force against its citizens, but then again, our country has never been through a war where our own government invaded another part of the country. I do personally believe Obama is sincere in protecting lives but is blinded to abortion. He, I believe has been deeply impacted by the tragedy, and if the believers act wisely and seek the Lord, perhaps the Spirit may help Obama to see the correlation with innocents slaughtered in the class-room to those defensive precious ones slaughtered in the womb.

    I agree with the points Andrew raises in this article (not something I often do) but I disagree with his approach. His frustrated attitude comes through his text and that only encourages people to react defensively when a healthy honest debate is needed.

    Otherwise, some wonderful comments on the thread. I love America. Billy Graham and John Wimber have particularly blessed our nation’s spiritual landscape. God bless!!

  205. Spence Jan 18th 2013

    Please know that even though I disagree with you as I stated in my prior two posts, I believe you are a man after God’s own heart. We just disagree on this subject, at least to a certain degree. I do agree that many so called “Christians” are using their Christianity to promote the political stance on gun rights. I don’t think that our walk with God should be used to promote our political agendas (but remember, this country was founded on Biblical principles). That’s why I don’t agree with the basis of your post. You have an “OPINION”…nothing more. Christians should not be using the bible to promote their political agenda, but at the same time, Christians CAN BE PATRIOTIC while not making there country’s rights an idol that comes before God. Some do, BUT I DO NOT. However, I believe in our second amendment and will stand behind it 100%. Be blessed my brother.

  206. Richard Savage Jan 18th 2013

    Andrew, isn’t this so often the case, people read into, or read back, what is just not there in plain sight?

  207. mY OLDER BROTHER WHO ATTANDS A “CHURCH STILL

  208. Oops Sorry My older brother is a emeritus professor with 30 letters after his name, over the years he has mellowed toward the Gospel but is still a long way off.
    He tell me his scientific brethren “Know what is wrong with the world , (its problems are manifold and on every level) “We (the scientists) Know how to fix it (they only think they do ) But sadly we know it wont get done”
    Is this the problem with everything that unsaved mankind touches? Even the gun laws? I think so, for their is a way that seems right to them but it only leads to death.
    Am i right saying things will not be sorted ’till Jesus returns? is that true? – I am not saying we should not give it our best shot- pardon the pun because .there are millions of “good people” and cattle that have suffered terribly because of weapons.. .
    Pt Michael

  209. Sure, to have guns or not to have guns is a concern of this world and therefore not a concern of the kingdom of God, other than the honesty of the people involved in the debate.
    It is the honesty, or the deceit and hypocrisy, that is the issue.
    But, on the subject of guns and America, this quote from Victor David Hanson at Pajamas Media more or less addresses the reality, as a secular matter:

    “James Madison did not write that amendment just as a protection for hunters or to ensure home defense, but rather as a warning to an all-powerful federal government not to abuse its mandate, given that the citizenry would be armed and enjoy some parity in weaponry with federal authorities. That is why a militia is expressly mentioned, and why the Third Amendment follows, emphasizing further checks on the ability of the federal government to quarter troops in private homes (made more difficult when, thanks to the Second Amendment, they are armed).”

  210. Born & living inSouth Africa for 66 years really changes ones perspective.
    NO ONE can understand some of the governments in Africa. Live in Zimbabwe, Uganda & a whole lot of others, China, Asia, the Russian republics & all muslim dominant countries in fact nearly all in the last 50 yrs. You in the USA know NOTHING of bad govt. or opression. You fight over a law being changed!!!! what if you right to make a living is changed!!! It’s good to stand for what you believe but the way you folk trash each other is appaling. Come to Africa or a Muslim country & see what a real christian is & how to respond to oppression.
    How unbelieveably arrogant to boast of who protected us from nazis, communists & everyone else. It’s like King David boasting how he killed goliath & everyone owed him, or how gideon or Moses saved the Israelites. You guys are way off the track. DOn’t you believe God??
    Now, in our country SA where everything is going down the tubes, & I mean EVERYTHING, our whole countries infrastructure is being decimated & robbed by corruption, education, judicial, policicg THE LOT is an absolute mess, but the call in the churches by the church, is to pray & LOVE the folk in Govt. In critisizing anything the motive is your key. Why are you critisizing? What is your aim? What areyou trying to achieve. If youre trying to achieve some good, then you will have a answer on what to do to make it different & a good outcome. But just to trash something or someone is ungodly & will NOT result in blessing but youre merely doing the devils job as an accuser of the brethren.
    You cannt pray for someone if you don’t love them, thats hypocrisy. You also cannot pray for govt. if your reasons are selfish. Why do you want a good govt? So you can continue to live in plenty & everything comfortable for you? OR is it so the Gospel can pe preached & the Kingdom of God grow & justice for the poor. The best Govt. is not the one that we deasrve (thank the Lord for that) but the one that is best for the Kingdom of God and NOBODY knows what govt. that is. If I look into the world it appears to me that the worse the govt. the better the church, THATS why God said pray for the govt & be obedient to it’s laws. LOVE your enemies, why, because God loves them.
    Be Blessed – Ian

  211. Americca did well in the past & God used her greatly in the world for good as she trusted in God. The problem now is that that trust is waning fast. Even in the church. listen to yourselves saying how the USA did this & that & saved the world from the communists etc. Don’t say one thing & do another.
    Your answer is to get back to that trust in God. the way back may be to get a govt. so bad it will shake un the church & get back to praying. One need to look at the last 50 years of uganda & see God at work.
    The way you’re all bickering, pointing, accusing & hating is EXACTLY what the devil wants. GOD IS AMERICAS ANSWER, americans, get to it, love one another fervently, including the govt & pray like theres no tomorrow, fervently, sincerely, faithfully, with all your hearts all the time & God WILL answer.
    be Blessed – Ian

  212. It seems to me like the sleeping giant in the USA is awakening. This gun issue had shaken the apathy out of many Americans. I do think this may draw many to the Cross, and posting on other sites, has been a wonderful time to witness to the unsaved about how that there may be no hope in this dying world, but then I share why and what to do about it for their eternal hope. I get countless, countless responses and many are hungry to hear the truth.

    In these end days, the Lord is opening up many new and different ways to witness and blogs is one of them and He IS DOING A GREAT WORK IN IT ALL. You have to be tough skinned and not get offended and not judge which is almost impossible for us Christians to do…as per this site. Sinners are MUCH easier to work with. I try to never make stupid comments about what I THINK THEY BELIEVE BY ONE POSTING. My inbox is filled with hungry people responding. Please know that the Christians are often angry, wanting to fight, and divisive. So I JUST DO NOT ANSWER THEIR POSTINGS OF ACCUSATIONS. Not worth it!

    I do believe in American’s right to bear arms. Everyone around us has them and MORE of them….and are at the ready to come to our aid IF WE NEED THEM TO. Our ministry and bible school students are ready to defend us every second. As ministers, we have fasted and prayed and have felt led to not have a gun.

    Let us stop accusing others and trying to make them do what God has led US to do. God speaks to each heart and each heart must respond to that!! Maybe IF WE WERE NOT IN FULL TIME MINISTRY, HE WOULD LEAD US OTHERWISE….I do not know, but we know we have heard from Him. We bless each of you who bear arms and yes, are thrilled with your being feisty and determined to do what you feel is right!

    AND WE EACH HAVE A RIGHT TO SHARE OUR OPINIONS WITHOUT BEING BITTEN AND ACCUSED. THAT IS WHAT GOD’S WORD IS ALL ABOUT. Lets have joy in this SHARING! Andrew and all of us see things differently and I do believe God made each of us the way He did. GO SAVE THE SINNERS, NOT THE ALREADY SAVED AND WE SHOULD NOT BE ACCUSING AND TRYING TO FORCE OUR RELIGIOUS IDEAS ON EACH OTHER!! EVER!

    AMERICANS ARE RIGHT TO BEING TIRED OF PEOPLE FROM OTHER NATIONS JUDGING US. WE ARE FAMILY! AND WE STICK TOGETHER WHEN WE FEEL SOMEONE IS CONSTANTLY ACCUSING US. WE MAY, LIKE FAMILY DO SOME DISAGREEING AMONG OURSELVES…HOWEVER, WE ARE NOT PERFECT, BUT NEITHER IS ANY OTHER NATION. THE NATION WHO IS PERFECT, CAST THE FIRST STONE…….

  213. DonaldN Jan 18th 2013

    Ian- You actually prove our point to fight to keep our freedom. If we let our guns go, and let our freedom go then we will soon end up like your country, down the tube, because we can do nothing about it. It is not a Christian issue in this case. Americans have the responsibility to maintain the freedom that was attained by our founding fathers. You have no freedom and so you compare us to you. You are not allowed to have guns. Another poster compared their situation in South America to ours, saying it would do them no good to have guns because of the hundreds of evil men with guns in their region. That is exactly why we need to keep our guns. So we don’t end up like the rest of the world that has given up their guns and become overrun with evil. Again, this is not a Christian issue.
    Should a Christian be willing to stand with the “worldly people” and fight for freedom? Why not. It is done in the military all throughout the world. Why is it ok for a Christian to be in the military but not be willing to defend “poitical freedom” on our homeland?
    You are holding two standards.
    When soldiers asked Jesus what they should do He did not tell them to lay down their weapons and become pacifists.

  214. DonaldN Jan 18th 2013

    Andrew— God has convicted me on this matter of posting.
    All of You– forgive me for speaking against you.
    Andrew– I have come to agree with some of the posts that claim you enjoy posting controversial subjects so you can sit back and watch us argue about it.
    I will argue no more.
    These discussions obviously do nothing but generate strife between Christians.
    I will post no more and I will no longer follow this ministry.
    God bless you all.. Please quit arguing and striving against each other. Forgive me for doing so.

  215. Andrew,
    I hear you and it is hard for people, Christians in America who love their country to see a wicked leader take down something we love.

    You mentioned our love for assault rifles. Guns aren’t what we love but taking them from people is symbolic of the larger issue; the purposeful assault on our liberties. The illegal repeal of our 2nd amendment rights. This is Dobson’s a thru z theory at work here. Since this last atrocity at Sandyhook, restrictions have been applied. The next disaster will result in our President saying we haven’t gone far enough, and more restrictions will be made law.

    On one side, we are citizens of the kingdom of God primarily. I am also a citizen of the United States and have a responsibility to her safety also. My primary responsibilities are prayer and being salt and light; to bring reformation to a nation, there must be revival in the church.
    But don’t I have a natural responsibility to protect our constitution too? What do Hitler, Stalin and other dictators who ran totalitarian states have in common? They registered the public’s guns and in time, they came for those guns. They also used children as a prop to justify their power grab.

    Leonard Ravenhill said; “the only thing we learn from history is, we don’t learn from history.” Being disarmed didn’t work too well in Russia, Germany, Italy or North Korea and it won’t work well in America either. History taught me that. I will use my spiritual resources and my natural resources LEGALLY to prevent that from happening here.

    Appreciate you , your ministry and your anointing.

  216. What soldiers Donald? I think your confusing Jesus with John the Baptist. Johnn said that they are not allowed to use violence (mistreat somebody) and by the way, John was OLD COVENANT. He was the last prophet of the OC. The New Covenant forbids fighting and killing completely. American Christianity seems to confuse the OT and NT quite frequently…America is NOT a new Israel. America was founded on innocent blood and NOT on the blood of the lamb and it did spread A gospel, but for the biggest part surely not THE gospel to th world…America has spread Materialism, Mammonism, Pornography, Worldliness, Warmongery and many other ugly things in the disguise of Christianity, so please don´t defend the nation (of which I certainly recognize that there of course also a lot of beautiful people/brethren living in it), defend CHRIST AND HIS WORD. Many of you patriots are fighting against Gods commandments in order to defend your “rights” and your ungodly views about violence and killing…REPENT! Your are fighting against God and he´s judging your country for that. Separate faith from politics finally…Your guilt is increasing.

  217. I concur with some of goodwordtoday’s thoughts
    but wholehearted disagree with “leave America alone to lick our wounds.” I fear that God has or will leave us alone!
    We need to be challenged at our basic assumptions!
    The “Christian Church” has been co-opted by political types for many years. I believe Satan and his have realized it is better to destroy from the inside then attack from with-out. Many of the loudest voices in Christianity today are either impostors or not very bright in mind or of spiritual understanding.
    As a case point, have you tried to discuss with other Christians the evil Israel’s governing class is doing to the Palestinians? Yes some wrongs have been done by Palestinians or those hiding behind that name. But righteousness is to take the high road. Gaza is an open air prison camp where children are dying daily due to import restrictions on PVC pipe for sewage system repair. Israel has been caught using false flag events to justify repression. Former IDF members have said this. They have formed a group of IDF Jews opposing these wrongs in the name of the Jewish people.
    So when pastors say anything Israel does is ok are way wrong. God has his people in Israel. But there are those wrapping themselves in the flag both here and in Israel thinking that is the same as righteousness.
    The 2nd amendment was put in place to have the armed populace as a counter to the tyranny of the political class..We are to have similar weapon capability to keep the government in line. People that fear their government = Tyranny. Governments that fear the people equals freedom and liberty. Gun rights keep the coming police state from total taken over and repression.
    Yes as Andrew says God will work His will and provide for his own no matter what. But if we neglect Jesus’ instructions about feeding the poor and visiting those in prison and offering a cup of cool water in His name while proclaiming the Gospel. No number of guns will protect like obedience to His Word will.

  218. DonaldN Jan 18th 2013

    David Gonzolez– forgive me for my error. You are still arguing!!!

  219. DonaldN Jan 18th 2013

    OK, please let me rephrase, I will post no more negative. If I cannot encourage and edify then I no longer desire to say anything.
    Therefore, please let God judge His own servants. Let each of us work on our own relationship. We can all use improvements.

    Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

  220. antipas4yahshua Jan 18th 2013

    I do give Andrew kudos and I think I understand where he is coming from. Let me run it my the latest Kiwi Christian to American Christian translator :)

    - Avoid the leaven of Pharisees (ie mixing of religion and politic).
    - Dont fret (Psalm 37)
    - Prayer is the most powerful weapon
    - Keep your eyes on Jesus
    - Focus on heavenly things (Col 3)
    - Seek first the Kingdom and His righteousness

    Allow me to add a personal note:

    The parable of the 10 virgins comes to mind – if you are prepared. You will have taken precautions and will be ready when He comes ( I believe His coming “to His people” will be wonderful and terrifying at the same time). If you you are not ready – by the time you go out and buy (much like now – prices have gone up and there are shortages). By the time you geared up = its too late ( I hope I am making sense)

    Whatever Jesus tells you to do- just do it and praise Him.Things go better with Jesus

    Shalom

  221. Donaldn. I do have guns, 5 of them. Hunting & target. We are allowed to have guns. You’re all using worldly arguments. Please read the bible in regard to safety in God.
    Our, SA demise has nothing to do with guns or our defense of a law. In fact SA has one of the best constitutions in the world and excellent laws, but that doesn’t help with dishonest selfish people in govt. Hear me folk, the only way anyone will have good govt is if the people in it have changed hearts who love the people. NO laws keep one safe or secure in any way, we have proved that beyond doubt. Southern Africa has the most coal, gold, diamonds, platinum, iron, copper & much more than the rest of the world. We have the best soils, rainfall, forests & desert. We have the best & most varied wildlife that the world want to pay to come & see BUT WE CAN’T FEED OUTSELVES.
    Why?? bad govt’s. All the countries have good laws & more than enough civil liberties (accept muslim countries)
    You see we need changed leader & ONLY PRAYER WILL CHANGE THAT.
    Think of it like you have an unsaved errant family member, what do you do? Love & pray for them & all the stuff we know. Well, do the same for your govt.
    Guns & war? they will NEVER DO ANYTHING FOR THE KINGDOM. only kill the folk the Lord died for.
    You guys need to read the books on the martyrs, and folk who really lived their faith. Read Heb11 & see what happened & God was pleased. It is said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
    The name of the Lord is a strong tower & the righteous RUN to it & they are safe
    Whose battle it is etc etc. No one has ever done perfectly. He has used war because his children think like you. Look at “closed” countries like the muslim controlled ones. Yes theyre struggling but the church is strong & growing. WHAT HAS CIVIL LIBERTIES GOT TO DO WITH THE KINGDOM OF GOD for goodness sake. Protect them by standing for them but it’s how you do it. Christians are making more fuss about some civil liberty than the furtherance of the gospel or the alleviation of people realiy suffering etc. Make your stand peacefully then use your vote….peacefully while you have it. THEN TRUST GOD. DON’T FIGHT & MAKE ENEMIES FOR IT. Only God can keep your civil liberty or anything else for that matter.
    I like Andrews posts as our responses really expose us, not so much the people referred to in his post.
    Blessings – Ian

  222. If it is true Andrew that you cared about this country, than you would speak the words to your many listeners that bring balance and peace, where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. The pacifist doctrine is error and the patriot God and country doctrine is error as well, the just shall live by faith. I will use a gun by faith and I will trust God to protect me by faith, it is not about my own understanding, it is about by faith. Those on both sides of this, argue relying on their own understanding, this is not scriptural. I have learned to trust God in whatever state I am, with a gun or without one. It’s your words Andrew that give you away.

  223. If you post about the right for Darfur children to have food you would have precious little interaction, but even hint at devaluing guns in the lives of believers and you are at war! sad.

  224. I assume that what Andrew wrote, was meant to be a word from the Lord, not just an opinion. With that being said, it is the Christian’s duty under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to determine whether this is a true word, or a false word. If it is true then we thank Andrew for sharing what God has put on his heart, if it is false we lovingly correct Andrew using Scripture to show where he is in error, but we don’t use opinion.

    By the way Andrew, once again thank you for sharing.

  225. Excellent word and I totally agree one hundred percent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  226. Linda Spagnola Jan 18th 2013

    Andrew, I agree with most of what you have written. I have made these same arguments with others over the years – zealous Christians who still have deep seated roots in the world – who do not understand what/how Jesus came to accomplish. I pray that these folks come to see and help fulfill the vision/purpose that God has had since before the foundation of the earth. The Golden Thread, The Son of God, is woven thruout the Old Testament and New: we just need to be spiritually open to see God’s eternal plan and our part in it. Thank you for reminding us that we are in this world, but not to be a part of it. That said, we are each a member of a community and need to be a help in that community as the Lord unctions.

  227. I sometimes wonder if those Christians that persistently critize US citizens, especially about the use of guns have ever read the following
    Scripture?
    Matthew 7:5
    In case you haven’t, I will tell you what it says:

    Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    BTW, I don’t own a gun myself, but that does not change my opinion
    about the right to bear arms.

  228. Colleen Jan 18th 2013

    Great. There is only one kingdom and allegiance Christians should put first above every other. That applies for every culture and every country, not only for America.

  229. JCBuck Jan 18th 2013

    Greetings everyone,
    Have a question for those much wiser than I.. I am first of all a born again believer, I own many guns/ammo, I am a collector, target shooter and avid hunter. I have never even pointed a weapon at another human being so this is NOT why I own weapons. So my question is this. Would it be biblical to use a firearm against an intruder who was life threatening to my wife or children, say a burglar of murderer who WAS ARMED. Secondly, if we had a situation in this country (U.S.) of anarchy or rioting would it be biblical as well to protect my family? We live way out in the country way back in the woods, so if someone is around or in our home during the night, you can pretty much assume that they are not here visiting, but to harm someone. I know that premeditated killing is murder no matter how you package it, however in a self defence situation what should a Christian do? I have heard many opinions on this matter, but would like more Wisdom on how this should be handled. I don’t care about my life, but my wife and daughters/grandddaughter are my responsibility to provide for and protect. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I do not want to dishonor the Lord if I was ever put in this position. Thanks and Blessings to all in Christ!!

  230. I haven’t read any of the comments yet, but I wanted to comment myself first.

    I TOTALLY agree with your post, Andrew!

    Very well spoken and right on target!

    I am an American, by the way, who used to be quite patriotic, but over the last 10 years or so I have learned the very things you spoke of.

    Remembering that this world is NOT MY HOME truly does help keep things in perspective.

  231. Wow – Wish I hadn’t bothered to read any of the comments!

    Many on here are too busy being offended to allow God to convict them of their wrong thinking and attitudes.

    Perhaps if you would turn off the news and ask God how He would have you believe …

    If you truly ask Him and are willing to change no matter what is required, then and only then will He show you what’s real and true.

    Otherwise, you will continue in your deception and will answer to Him when you stand before Him – surprised at what He has to say to you.

    Guns are not bad – Andrew never said they were.

    Owning a gun is not wrong – Andrew never said it was.

    It’s the view that you defend all your rights on this earth and bash anybody who stands in your way.

    The Constitution is NOT the Bible. It does not mean that the Constitution is bad, and it does not mean that you cannot believe in second-amendment rights.

    But do your rights become your religion and your idol?

    DON’T USE THE WORD OF GOD TO DEFEND YOUR BELIEFS!

    GO BACK TO THE WORD OF GOD OVER AND OVER AND LET THE WORD OF GOD DEFINE YOUR BELIEFS AND CHANGE ANY WRONG THINKING YOU HAVE.

    Hopefully one or two will be convicted and willing to change their thinking as they pray before God. It is haughtiness that causes us to “stick to our guns” (so to speak) at all cost.

    This is not God’s way.

    Humble yourselves before a holy God and be fully willing to think as He does.

    “And you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    These truths come to us all through our lives – if we are open to them.

    No correction feels good at first, but it will yield fruit of righteousness if we receive it.

    Those who are ranting and rabidly defending their cause are proving (without realizing it ) what Andrew is saying.

  232. My husband and I do have several guns, by the way, and we would use them if needed to defend ourselves or our young sons.

    But owning a gun is not essential to our well being. Ultimately, our safety comes by abiding under the shadow of the Almighty.

    Keeping things in perspective (based on God’s Word) is so important.

  233. I think instead of being concerned about taking away our firearms we should be on our knees praying with passion that our freedom to worship is being taken away. When that is gone it wont matter how many guns we have.

    Our warfare is not flesh & blood but principalities & powers.
    And the Psalms says we will not trust in horses & chariots but in the Name of the Lord.

    Prayer & fasting is the ammunition & the power is in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    All this with turning away from all evil and walking upright with the Lord – we will have nothing to fear. Them enemy wants and loves to bring fear to us and when we are weak – we will fear. My favorite Psalm to read & pray personally for myself and family is Psalm 27.

    We must get to know God & who He is in the Word for ourselves, not what others think of Him and then believe Him.

    I wish there were no guns at all but that wont happen til this life is over. Until then people have the right to have one. But we dont have the right to kill a human and send them to hell. If we trust in the Lord with our whole heart we must know He will take care of us in all situations. I dont want to live in fear. If you think you must have a gun to have peace or to protect yourself and are a Christian – you are ruled by fear. Pray about it, read the Word and ask the Holy Spirit to show you. He is faithful and will.

    May we all look to Him who is all knowing & caring and give Him the respect that He deserves and put our whole trust in Him for He cares for us.

    Jesus says, He can and will make a way where there seems to be none. His ways are perfect and we must put all our energy into believing, following and obeying Him. Not in how we will protect & provide for ourselves. And especially not be fearful. Draw us closer Lord and deliver Your children from a fearful &untrusting heart. Amen

  234. Interesting comments!

    Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

    Jesus told his disciples to put up the sword, now in modern times, guns must be the weapon of choice.

    Matthew 26:52
    But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

  235. Well, I have to say that I have been deeply convicted todayabout something that Andrew said. I know that ther are passifist here and others who name the Name of Jesus as Lord, yet own fireams and “get it” as firearms being tools for hunting and self defense. I am not convicted on my stance of using a firearm to protect my life or the life of my family, should I ever be confronted with evil, say, a group of men who are attacking my wife. I would rahter use my firearm to prevent her from getting harmed and/or killed. I am not ashamed whatsoever. I believe that I would have some answering to do if I got all paccifist and sat back as my was raped or murdered and I did nothing to try to protect her. I am not trying to be hard on the passifists, hey believe what you want, I respect that right, but if you have ever come face to face with an evil criminal intent on hurting you, you may reconsider. Well, enough of that rant.

    I wanted to share with you all that I have been VERY deeply convicted today about my involvement with gun politics and writing legislators, senators, mayors, even the president. I confess that I am guilty of calling them tyrants and rebuking them for their hatred of the concept of citizens owning guns. I have repented of this, and I even cancelled going to a gun rally at the Capitol tomorrow (saturday) and am stopping any further involvment in gun politics and trying to argue with anti-gunners, etc. Andrew is right, our focus should be on the Lord, not on the globalist, new world order agenda, that we cannot stop anyway.

    I am a gun owner and I do own one of those “black evil rifles” which has been demonized by the media. It is no more an assualt weapon than the box cutters used to hijack the planes that downed the twin towers, it is simply a semi-automatic rifle period! It looks bad, but it is actually pretty tame, as far as the .223 caliber compared to a .308 or 30-06 hunting rifle, the AR-15 is a pussycat…not a toy by any means, but I have shot a lot more powerfuly and deadly guns. I use it for competitive purposes, and it is a blast ( no pun intended) to shoot.

    Oh well, thank you Andrew, and thank you Lord for a deep conviction today, that I have gladly repented of, the sin of getting too involved with the “world issues and politics” regarding my ownership of firearms. It is of course something that concerns me, but when I find myself spending more time rallying and writing letters, and thinking about what may happen..than with the Lord, well I have a problem. Thank you Lord for your mercy towards this saved by Grace sinner who needs Grace and sanctification each day. Grace be with you all.

  236. john van Zoest Jan 18th 2013

    A timely article. I shoot as a hobby, have guns as an interest, and may one day have to use this knowledge to save me & mine. This is something I try to hold loosely, because it should not define who I am. I am a believer first, and a shooter a very, very distant second.
    It occurs to me that a lot of the hysteria surrounding this issue is fear driven. Better to make decisions and behave through faith, not fear.( Easy to say, harder to do)

  237. Praise the Lord, WM!

  238. What is the number one reason GODS people perish………..
    HE says My people perish from lack of knowledge.
    My advice………………begin anew
    TO LOVE the LORD thy GOD is with the whole heart.
    AND by grace i was PUT ONLY in the bible.
    I was the worst sinner of many.
    But on may 30 2006 I was instantly turned around
    and PUT in the BIBLE only. Far from mens thoughts and reasonings and teachings.
    ONLY in the bible . NOW i say that NOT to Boast
    BUT because IF we do this………….
    THEN we LEARN.
    WHEN paul told timothy those scriptures make us wise
    unto salvation, through our faith in Christ………….THAT IS TRUTH.
    ANY who LOVES the TRUTH will SEEK it OUT.
    NOT to look good, BUT JUST TO KNOW.
    I suggest only bible reading. PUT in two hours daily.
    IF we want to KNOW him…………..learn of what HE said
    to many of old. Learn and read the letters paul wrote
    the gosples, the old scrips.
    IN the years i have known of the LORD
    i have SEEN the WHY so many cling to opinions
    and why the strife.
    FOR many dont read the word for themselves
    or just listen to a preacher here and there .
    MANY false prophets are in the churches and on internets.
    TO TEST ALL YOU HEAR…………..you
    MUST be HOLY scripture WISE IN CHRIST.
    We must LOVE THE TRUTH. WE must live and learn
    and FOLLOW CHRIST. CHRIST will give the understanding
    of the HOLY SCRIPS……..
    THERE are a few of us who have met ……..
    roger, sandra……….kc, and a few others……
    AND i notice tis the spirit that is leading us to come
    together. We must submit all unto GOD
    and ONLLY TRUST HIM. LEAN upon the LORD with all thy heart.
    HUMBLE as a child. TRUST his every word and LIVE IT.
    strifes and divsions are the cause of opinion versus TRUTH.
    AND if we submit unot GOD…………cast all cares ABOVE
    not here on things of this earth…………….TRUTH ye shall be FED.
    LEARN the GREAT gain of godliness with contentment.
    LEARN to JOY in the salvation of GOD.
    and know and understand…………….all who live GODLY
    will suffer persecutions, FOR ALL GOD LOVES
    he chastens and scourges every one he recives
    that we be made partakers of HIS holiness and not the world.
    WHEN we are chastened……………..tis so we are NOT JUDGED with the rest of the world. LEARN to let GO of all affections here on this earth. LEARN to JOY in the LORD
    and no matter HOW harsh things get………………
    YOU CAN REJOICE , for all hopes are above on HIM
    and ON HIS REWARD at HIS COMING.
    My advice, is to go back to ONLY bible reading
    IF we LOVE GOD………………we make the time to learn of him.
    LEARN what HE has said. NOT what men have said.
    GO back and LEARN what GOD has said.
    AND the truth shall set you free.
    YOU will have a peace NONE can grasp.
    NO worries of the morrow, no worries at all.
    JUST a willing heart to please GOD come what may.
    AND joy unspeakable. FOR JOY in the harshest of times
    we can. LEARN of HIM. pray and ask wisdom.
    READ the bible. SEE the truth i speak of. WE must
    be CHRIST centered……..NOT wordly centered.
    THERE is but ONE kiingdom………………..the one within us
    by the HOLY SPIRIIT……………and ONe day
    she , mother Jersualsem shall descend. AFTER JESUS COMES
    to destroy anti christ. PLEASE for any who desires and LOVES TRUTH, not opinion………BUT TRUTH…………
    return to the FIRST LOVE and read the WORDS of GOD,
    LEARN the sermon on the mount. and TRUST every word
    . Be blessed.

  239. JCBuck Jan 19th 2013

    Ian,
    Just responding to your remark about how your government is gutting your economy, jobs etc.. Well my Brother, that is exactly what is happening here!!! If you do any research on what is happening here it is the same as in your country. As a matter of fact, a good Sister in Christ of mine lives in Ibadan Nigeria and she told me of the loans that her gov’t took out in the 1970′s and stole all of the money then stuck the people with the debt. Well, this is what our leaders are doing right now. They have been caught red handed, however they will not prosecute one another for it is a conflict of interest. Do I believe that our gov’t and military have taken part in the twin tower destruction, Oklahoma city bombing, Connecticut shooting? I say with much conviction, YES!! Christ simply doesn’t exist in any part of our governments structure, He was kicked out when I was a little boy, of course He was never really welcome from the beginning. In our school systems as a child, we were taught all of the lies of history that shaped the opinions and beliefs of our society. Do I really care what happens to this country? NO I don’t, I am not a permanent citizen here, however I do have guns and have no plans on harming anyone or starting a war. I would defend my wife and children from harm but that’s about it. I know many Christians in the area that I live who are fellow hunters/gun owners and we are all non-violent people. Also Ian, all of the evil that comes to your country, if you trace its origin, it comes from the United States of America!! Once again my friend from Nigeria, whom is a physician and her husband is the head of the WHO, she told me of how President Clinton started many conflicts in the Congo in order to put his puppet leaders in, in order to rape the natural resources from this region. So, we are not as different as you may think, the same evil you experience is just a bit better hidden over here. I am not angry about your comments, I love you as my Brother, just want you to know that we are all in the same boat.BTW, in order to implement the Mark of the Beast, all weapons will have to be confiscated. Think about it??? Blessings Ian!!

  240. Bettina Braun Jan 19th 2013

    I don’t think you understand what is happening in America. We have always been a republic, with representatives in congress. Our President has been the third arm of government. All of a sudden we have a president who is bypassing congress and doing whatever he wants by executive orders. He is acting like a dictator. Americans are afraid of what he is doing to our country. We want our guns to defend us against abuses by our government. Plus the cities like Chicago with the most gun laws, have the highest crime rates. Put through those laws and all the power will be in the hands of the government and the criminals.
    I don’t think God intended us to just roll over, do you? I trust God, but God wants us to do our parts too.

  241. Kem Tillford Jan 19th 2013

    Andrew, the Lord has given you a real gift the Body of Christ is in need of these days. You get straight to the point, address the body as Jesus would and you tell it like it is. People didn’t like to hear the truth when Jesus spoke it and I know many don’t like it when you speak the truth either. We want to do what we want to do and whoa to the man who puts a mirror up in front of our face. We can’t have it both ways, we either follow Jesus or we follow the constitution. Splitting hairs and trying to find reasons why we can have our cake and eat it to is wrong. I’ve heard many of my friends tell me I swore to uphold the constitution and defend her from both foreign and domestic enemies but all of them forget that that military oath also says they will obey the president. What about our oath to the Lord when we were saved. We can’t serve 2 masters at once. Nationalism is what has kept people enlisting to serve our country. Our military now welcomes all religions and gays, the military has no moral compass, never has. I’ve often looked at our vets with pity because they believed the lies, believed they were doing the right thing by going to war. I look forward to Jesus’s return when the swords will be beat into plow shares and every man will sit under his own vine. Jesus’s plans are not America’s plans. America is a man made idea but isn’t what Jesus will have for us, the 2 are not compatible and never have been. The illusion is that America is good but how many people have been killed by us. Our foundational history started with us wiping out a nation of people, killing them, destroying their homes and food supply. How could God bless that kind of foundation? We’ve been living on grace and mercy for a long long time.

  242. Greetings in Christ Andrew and all readers!

    I believe you have done a great service to all the readers of your email and website. You have tackled a very contemporary and important topic which I believe needs to be addressed by Christians – both Americans, as well as others.

    I can see your side of things and believe there is a biblical validity to much of what you say. However, (and I’m sure you realize this) you have not dealt exhaustively with this subject, nor have you dealt with it within the full of the revelation of the Scriptures.

    I believe there are other parts of Biblical revelation which will help followers of Christ to be able to better decide which course of action he or she should take under various circumstances which may come their way.

    First, I believe the Bible and the New Testament make a distinction between what one is responsible for before Christ as an individual versus a corporate society. One should note that such teachings of Christ (such as “love your enemies” etc.) are made to the individual follower of Christ. It is also important, as at least one earlier writer pointed out, that near the end of His time here on earth Christ also told His disciples to equip themselves with a sword (that day’s equivalent to today’s gun).

    It is equally valid and a directive to Chirstians that we find in such passages as Romans 13:1-5 which tell us to “be subject to the governing authorities.” What does this mean for one who is drafted into the army to shoot weapons at enemies designed to destroy them – as the Americans did in WWII and other wars? That same passage also makes note of those under the authority of the government wielding the sword to do the government’s bidding. Were Christians to be exempt from any of these positions under the government’s direction? If so, are they not being disobedient to this and other passages???

    I believe, if we are to bring ALL of Scripture to bear upon the subject, we must not ignore the fact that in both John the Baptist’s and Christ’s encounters with soldiers did they confront them with not wielding the sword/other weapons or killing someone within the proper execution of their occupational duties. John the Baptist did teach them to behave within the legal boundaries of their duties and not to complain about their wages, etc. (Luke 3:14), but he does not forbid them not to kill or execute the judgement of the government. On one of Christ’s encounters with a centurion (who commanded one hundred soldiers) He did not tell the man to cease his occupation. Instead, He commended the centurion for his great faith (Matthew 8:5-13).

    Later in the New Testament Church, we find an Italian centurion, Cornelius, who became the first fully Gentile convert together with his household and servants. Once again, we find no instruction or teaching to stop his occupation of being a soldier and executing the government’s directives for warfare or the killing of people to bring the government’s justice upon those gulity (remember, it was Roman soldiers who executed the sentence of death for Christ and the two criminals with Him).

    So, to sum up the first major consideration, New Testament Scripture makes a distinction between taking a personal action based upon what someone else does against the Christian and what a Christian may do under the auspices of the government. I believe Christians should also make such a distinction. We should not take personal revenge upon a person who does harm to us, but we should support the righteous meeting out of societal/governmental justice upon the guilty. There is a difference.

    Secondly, there is the issue that the God we serve is not merely a god of some sort of mushy love and unbridled grace and mercy. The Scriptures clearly and abundantly teach that He is a God of HIS brand of love (often depicted in what we may call “tough love”) and a God of pure holiness, righteousness, and justice.

    While we do not see God calling His people in the New Testament to execute His justice upon a totally corrupt nation, we do see God operating in this manner in the Old Testament through the Israelites when they entered the promised land. They definitely used all the weapons available to them to accomplish God’s directives – which included the slaughter of all children and babies as well as all adults.

    If God has called His people to do this in the past, I don’t think you can claim that He could never, ever do that after the New Testament came into being. He is God and part of the claim of His character is that He does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). He is the same God today as He was in the Old Testament.

    The closest possible illustration I am know of within recent history is as follows: there are those who have made claims of being able to trace the hand of God in the Allied forces defeating Hitler and the Third Reich. I am not intimately aquainted with their research but I know that such exists. By and large, at the time, Great Britian, Canada, and the USA (all prime players in WWII) were well known as predominantly Christian nations. So, I believe it is possible for God to use His people in such a way in post-New Testament times. It is clear from history that a horrendously corrupt, demonic, evil government was brought to destruction.

    It should be noted too, that it appears from historical records that God had a hand in the finding, settling, and populating of the USA as well as bringing about the independence of the USA (I have no axe to grind here as I am a Canadian). Certainly, it cannot be denied that historically American Christians have done more for the funding and spreading missionary endeavors around the world more than any other nation (sadly, in recent decades they’ve also become the chief exporters of corruption and immorality). Similarly, I think one will find that the USA Christians have done more for the universal translation of the Scriptures into all the world’s languages than any other nation. It is quite possible that God directed His people to take up arms to escape the tyrrany of Great Britian. If it is true that God had His hand in bringing about the independence of the USA from the tyranny of Great Britain, then it must be acknowledged that the use of arms and the entrenchment of the right to bear arms in the US constitution were possibly within God’s will as well.

    If this is true, and I think it possibly to be so, then might it be possible for God’s people to execute His justice upon an increasingly corrupt national government and nation – such as the USA is. I am not pushing this as a reality – merely as a possibility based on upon the nature of God and His past actions as we find them in God’s Word.

    I believe God’s Word may also give basis for the defending of one’s self, family, and friends as seen in Esther 8:7-17. It seems that God orchestrated this outcome through Esther (even though God in not mentioned in this book the evidence of God’s hand working within the events recorded here is one of the main reasons for its inclusion within the canon of Scripture). This defense of life has no prohibition on the use of weapons to do so. There is a vast difference, too, between the killing in defense (and capital punishment) and the premeditated murder prohibited in the Ten Commandments. (Anyone who claims otherwise is ignoring the language, culture, and revelation of Scripture).

    Additionally, Nehemiah was specifically led and blessed by God to rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem (for Jerusalem’s defense) and instructed the builders to arm themselves in case of enemy attack.

    I do NOT, however, agree with the many “Christian” Americans who bad-mouth their government leaders. We are instructed in the New Testament to pray for our leaders and submit to them – especially if they are acting in the people’s best interests (Romans 13:3, 4; 1 Timothy 2:1-3). This should not, however, exclude legitimate debate or exposing of evil (Ephesians 5:11ff) – especially within the context of a democracy which allows the freedom of speech. Such actions on the part of a Christian, though, should be with grace (Colossians 4:6) and not malicious or slanderous.

    Nor do I agree with the improper or wrong use of weapons (e.g. for personal vengence or agenda) whether it is with a gun, or a knife, or a vehicle.

    For those interested, I personally owned about eight rifles and shotguns 30 – 40 years ago and enjoyed hunting and target shooting. One day, however, the Holy Spirit directed me to sell them all as an act of obedience to Him. I have not owned a gun since. However, I do not say that gun ownership and legitimate useage should not be for others. It was a personal directive to me by the Holy Spirit.

    I trust this helps bring a more complete picture of what the Scriptures present us with concerning this topic. Please forgive me if I am repeating what others have said – I didn’t have time to read the numerous responses.

    May God richly bless you all and grant us His grace as we continue to mine the truths of His Word and apply them to how we live in Christ before all.

  243. Hello Bert,

    You are right that Jesus gave his disciples a new command. He in fact gave a number of new commands or new instructions that were not part of the Old Covenant Law: angery words for a brother can send you to hell; he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery; if your right eye causes you to sin, cut it out and throw it away; make no oath at all; do not resist an evil person; love your enemies and do good to those who hate you and pray for those who abuse you; give to whoever asks of you; do not store up treasure on earth; sell your posessions and give to poor; do not worry about where your food or clothing will come from and don’t chase after those things. These are just some of his new commands and new teachings.

    If we want to be disciples of Jesus we have to take all of his commands seriously and not reject or explain away even one of them. We also have to let Jesus show what he means by what we have of his teaching and example. We can’t let society or our preconceived ideas define what Jesus “really meant”.

    I’m not sure I’ve exactly understood your comments so if I misrepresent you, I’m sorry for that. What I understood from what you said is that you are passionate about wanting to have “the right” to kill any enemies who come against you by owning a gun but that you are concernced that “hitting people too hard with the Bible” is not loving one another. I really shouldn’t need to say much more than that as Jesus words are so simple and so clear that even a young person after reading the Gospels could easily see the absurdity of such a twisted idea of love. However, there have been so many years of antichrist teaching against the clear words of Jesus that I’ll give more explaination.

    Let us hold up your idea to Jesus’ example. Jesus never resisted those how wanted to harm him nor did he teach his followers to do so (as I pointed out, he taught exactly the opposite). He even asked that his killers would be forgiven for their evil deeds against him. When Peter tried to selflessly defend Jesus, he got a stern and general rebuke for it. He didn’t get a “good idea Peter but this just isn’t the right time so save the sword for later.” However, when Jesus encountered people who hated or resisted his teaching he sternly warned and rebuked them on many occasions.

    To kill those who want to kill you can’t be loving your enemies. To warn and rebuke those who claim the name of Christ yet make a mockery of his commands (and therefore show themselves on a path to eternal destructiion) can be loving. I realize a forum like this is a hard place to judge if someone’s heart or tone is loving as you only get to see my words on the screen and nothing else.

    If you can’t love your enemies (in real, practical ways, not in fanciful “love him while shooting him” sorts of ways) then as Jesus has said you are no better than any of the rest of the sinners. As Jesus said in Luke 6: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you. For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you. For even sinners do the same.”

    If you are, as I understand you to be saying, passionate about having the legal right to return evil for evil, then you can spend as much time as you want trying to love your wife or other people who do good to you but you still don’t love Jesus as you claim because Jesus said that if you love him you will obey his commandments. He didn’t give exceptions for the commands that were hard or costly or didn’t make sense to you. He puts before you two paths: a hard, costly, narrow one that leads to life one and a broad, easy one that leads to destruction. If you want your self-defense weapon, you can have it, but not on the narrow path that leads to life. Only by repenting and taking up your real cross (not a fake, padded substitute that doesn’t kill you) and following the real Jesus can you be in the kingdom of God.

  244. JCBuck Jan 19th 2013

    Hi Joel,
    Not trying to start a debate, just want to clarify something. What you are saying is that if a maniac broke into your home, which is not an unrealistic thing, and had every intention of raping and killing your wife and daughters/sons, that your conviction is to let this happen while you pacifly sit and watch?? I always took what Paul told Timothy, “A man who provides NOT for his own family, denies the faith, and is worse than an infidel”. Is not one of the things bred into a man defending his family from harmful things of people? I am not trying to be condescending, just interested in your take on this, as I do not know everything nor do I want to come off that way. Interesting points by all who have posted, i am enjoying reading and getting educated.
    Blessings,

    chris

  245. JCBuck,

    I think the best answer to your question about whether it would be right to kill those who want to kill your family is given by Jesus. He said not to resist an evil person (and then gave examples of what that might look like). He also said to love your enemies. He gave some examples of that too. What he didn’t give with either of those two commands were exceptions. He didn’t say they were only for you in your individual vs. corporate society life (Jesus never taught that our lives could be divided like that). He didn’t say that they didn’t apply to evil persons who wanted to do you harm (in fact his examples include those situations) and he didn’t say that his commands didn’t apply when someone wanted to harm your family. He went out of his way to point out that even sinners love and do good to those who are good to them. Only if we are ready to obey Jesus’ commands when they really cost us do we find out if we really want to be his disciple. He gave those commands in contrast to commands in the Law of Moses and made it clear he was giving new commands that hadn’t been what the Law of Moses taught.

    I know what I say may sound very strange to you and all you may have heard about the ideas of Christian non-resistance is probably derogatory. However, if you doubt what I’m saying, I challenge you to read the writtings that we have from Christians from the years about 80-320 (the so-called ante-Nicene period). These were the people who had the best chance to understand if Jesus really meant what he seems to be saying. You will see there that they consistently taught that Christians could never use the sword in self-defense and should not even go to law against an enemy. Many of those who wrote such things saw their own spiritual and fleshly families and eventually themselves killed by the Roman pagans. They knew what they were talking about and had no one but Jesus to trust in for help. Many of them went boldly to their deaths and risked their lives every bit as much as a worldly soldier. They even wrote that they would put people out of the church for joining the army or refusing to agree not to take up arms.

    Jesus said so many things to try to get us to take our focus off the physical/temporary and onto the spiritual/permanant. What he taught about non-resistance is just one of those things. It isn’t that violence is inherrently wrong as God used war in his previous, earthly kingdom of the Jews and allowed them to defend themselves. He also allowed them to seek riches and to sue each other to divorce and remarry and to swear oaths and to lust in their hearts and other things that Jesus prohibited in his kingdom.

    Unfortunately most people want to go back to the Old Covenant and focus on the physical blessings and physical security it offered. However, we can’t pick and choose. If you want the New Covenant and the kingdom it offeres, you need to accept the new Law that Jesus preached. If you want the Old Covenant, then get yourself a sword and head over to Palestine and kill as many foreigners as you can until Jesus comes back and destroys you as he will do to all who disobey him and reject his kingdom that is not of this world.

    Consider the scenario you mention. Someone comes onto your property just to rob you and harm your family. You have never met the man or done anything against him. Many people think what you should do is obvious because they primarily think about the physical. Imagine you take out one of your guns and shoot the man before he can harm you or your family. He certainly has now been doomed to hell. You then die in your disobedience to Christ and your family eventually does as well and you all end up in hell after judgment day. Now the outcome doesn’t sound so good when you look at the spiritual/eternal side of it.

    However, imagine that instead you obey Christ and pray to God and preach repentance to the man but do nothing to resist him physically. Imagine he kills your whole family and burns down your house and steals all your goods. If you have walked in obedience to Jesus and are a part of his kingdom then you have just had an early retirement. Imagine now that he has to live with the knowledge that he killed you and you had no concern for yourself or your family but only wanted to see his repentance and so at one point he repents and follows Jesus.

    If we look at what really matters it is easy to see that everyone having eternal life in the kingdom of God is a better outcome than everyone in hell.

    If you have more questions, I would be happy to try my best to answer them. My email is joel2 at mawhorter dot org.

  246. Hi JCBuck,

    I didn’t see your last post before I posted mine. I was replying to your previous question. I think I bascially answered your question to me directly but I’ll clarify a few points.

    It is a false dictomy to say that the only two options you have is either to kill/fight an attacker or sit there and do nothing. Praying, preaching and standing in the way and letting yourself be killed instead of someone else are all examples of doing something.

    The command to provide for our families is not a command to fight evildoers. Paul was preaching the same message as Jesus. He taught in Romans 12 to repay NO ONE evil for evil. Like Jesus he didn’t teach any exceptions to not resisting evildoers. What we need to provide for our familes more than anything else is the encouragement to follow Jesus no matter what it costs and the example of a life lived like that. Defending your family with a gun won’t get them into the kingdom of God. If they don’t get into the kingdom of God, what else matters?

    You are right that it is natural for a man to want to defend his family. I have a wife and children and I know it would be a serious test of my faith to be put in a situation where they were attacked. However, it is natural for men to lust after women, to desire wealth, to worry about tomorrow and many other things that Jesus prohibits for those who want to follow him. Jesus said we can’t be his disciples unless we deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. That means we don’t get to do whatever comes naturally. It means we put to death the flesh with its fleshly desires and follow Jesus on the path of suffering he took.

    Some people say that it is unloving not to defend your family. If that is true than God is the most unloving being ever to exist because he has stood back and watched countless inocent people be killed and not done anything to stop it. He could easily stop, every sin that has ever occurred by taking the life of the about-to-be sinner. He in is wisdom has chosen not to and there is no law stoping him from doing so. God is not bound by the command to not resist evil doers and to love our enemies. In the end, he will torture his enemies. So letting someone die because your are obeying Jesus is not unloving.

  247. Suze,

    Some of us have read and are trying to obey all of the sermon on the mount and not just Matthew 7:5. I’ve been working on taking the beam of trusting in my flesh out of my own eye. Now I try to point out the same problem in others who want to ignore what Jesus said in Matthew 5 (“do not resist an evil person”), Matthew 6 (“do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth”) and Matthew 7 (“judge not that you be not judged”).

    As an interesting aside, I find it puzzling that people who argue that you can be a Christian and a judge with either a gun or a gavel or a vote in congress (all of which judge and kill people in as final and literal a sense as man can) can get uptight when someone points out that disobeying Jesus is bad and then call that judging. Does “judge not” now mean we should not preach the gospel of the kingdom?

  248. Hello Bettina Bruan,

    You said “I don’t think God intended us to just roll over, do you? I trust God, but God wants us to do our parts too.”

    No God doesn’t want us to “just roll over”. He wants us to obey him and obey the words his son said would judge us all on the last day.

    Let me ask you a question. When God sent John the Baptist to preach, did he expect him to just roll over and be killed? When God sent his son to preach, did he expect him to just roll over and be killed? When God sent Peter, John, Paul and Silas to preach did he expect them to just roll over when they were beaten, abused, and finally killed (except maybe for John)? Did any one of them ever take up a weapon to defend himself or anyone else (other than Peter who was soundly rebuked for it by the very Word of God)?

    The real question is do we believe that Jesus really meant what he said, even if it costs us everything we have in this life?

  249. Pastor Wayne, you wrote an interesting thoughtful, logical post without rancor or bitterness, thank you. One once said to me ” God a gave us a brain to think with and so we must use it!!”
    I have a question. – God is no respecter of persons so if he tells you to sell your guns and you are not in an occupation where you need one (even national park rangers mostly use tranquilizer guns these days, that is my perception correct me if i am wrong)
    Will he not also tell me, and by inference all other spirit filled folk to do likewise?
    The unsaved i see are in a different situation to the anointed Saints of God. John the Baptist and Jesus’ gospell preceded the new covenant – crucifixion, resurrection, Pentecost, all makind were were still under Old covenant law not Christian New Testament, eg Jesus said comparing – the two:- “Moses said though shalt not kill” v “but I say if you hate someone in you heart you have murdered them already” So one does not need a gun for murder!!?? I’m sure that is scary to some, but it must be true!?
    To whom much is given much is required and we have been given eternal life, the engrafted, life giving Word, quick and powerful, the Sword of the Spirit, Peter used a natural sword in the garden, was rebuked by Jesus and the wound healed. Surely Wayne, that was his old nature?. At Pentecost he weilded the Sword of the Spirit with miraculous results – over 3,000 souls repented were baptized, spirit filled!

    Blessings
    Pr Michael

  250. Dear rother Michael,
    I hopefully have several answers to your questioning.

    No, just because God has given personal instructions to one individual Christian does not mean those instructions apply to every disciple of Christ. I know one Christian to whom his love of hockey had become a central focus in his life. He played it every chance he could – even to the detriment of robbing him of spending proper time with his family. One day God spoke to him and told him that he was never to play hockey again – not even with the team which his church had. That does not mean that every disciple is never to play hockey or be involved in hockey ever.

    I know another believer to whom God told him to take up playing squash as a means of meeting non-Christians in order to witness to them. Does that mean that ALL believers should take up playing squash in order to witness to the lost? Of course not..

    Biblically, Christ told the rich, young ruler to sell ALL he had and give it to the poor. Does that mean that every disciple of Christ should do so? Obviously not. Joseph of Arimathaea, disciple of Christ is described as rich, yet we read no such commandment to him. He did, however, use his wealth to be able to do God’s will such as supplying the tomb wherein Christ was laid (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42). Also, the first Gentile believer we are told of was Cornelius, who because of his position would have been a man of wealth (which is inferred in Acts 10), yet he was not instructed to sell all he had as a disciple of Christ.

    If you take a few minutes to really think about the question you’ve asked and apply it to other areas of life, I think you’ll realize that God’s personal instructions to an individual believer should not apply to other believers. For example if God told a particular disciple to move to a particular city to begin a particular ministry there, should that apply to every believer? Obviously, not!

    Likewise, God’s instruction to me to sell my guns was for me only – not for all believers. In hindsight, I believe really had nothing to do with guns as much as it had to do with my obedience to Christ as He directed me. Other information He gave me was that the money was supposed to be used for a specific project which also was part of the lesson of obedience He taught me at the time.

    Also, your quote of Acts 10:34 was in the context of salvation of the Gentiles and had nothing to do with the misapplication you gave to it in your post above.

    Also, in your post you seem to negate the Old Testament as having no application to Christians after the New Covenant came into effect. While we are not under the Law and bound to it as those under the Old Covenant, we are still look to it as our example as to how we are to live our lives. This is described in 1 Corinthians 10:1-14 where Paul lists several examples from the Old Testament and gives their application to New Testament believers. In like manner we should not ignore the Old Testament passages and examples I listed in my post above, nor in the posts of others above.

    The Old Testament Scriptures have a valid place within the New Covenant and are equally the Word of God. 2 Peter 1:16-21 tells that the Old Testament prophecies are to be applied to New Testament Christians and that “we do well to take heed of them.”

    2 Peter 3:15, 16 put the writings of Paul (NT) on par with the OT Scriptures. Also, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 instructs us that “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

    No, there a proper and vital place the Old Testament plays in the life of the New Testament disciple of Christ. In fact, the New Testament CANNOT be properly understood without the Old Testament. And we are told that ALL of it is “profitable” for all the areas listed above SO THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT DISCIPLE COULD COME TO FULL MATURITY AND BE PREPARED TO DO ALL HE IS DIRECTED TO DO BY GOD.

    Let no one ever disparage, neglect, or downplay the Old Testament – the New Testament Scriptures don’t and neither should we.

    I hope this answers your questions, brother.

    May God richly bless you in all labours for Him.
    Wayne

  251. Please forgive some of my grammar errors in this last post. I hadn’t had all my morning coffee yet when I wrote it (LOL).

  252. Sheeja John Jan 19th 2013

    Do not be overly righteous, nor be overly wise:
    Why should you destroy yourself?

    Do not be overly wicked, nor be foolish:
    Why should you die before your time?

    It is good that you grasp this,
    And also not remove you hand from the other;
    For he who fears God will escape them all. – Ecclesiates 7:16-18

    The account of Exodus 1:15-21 and Judges 5:24-27
    explains the above principle. It reads:
    ‘And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
    And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
    But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
    And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
    And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
    Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
    And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. – Exodus 1:15-21

    Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
    He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
    She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
    At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead. – Judges 5:24-27

  253. Dear Andrew,

    I want to personally thank you for your courage to put out what is in your heart as you walk with God. It takes guts and an uncompromising trust in the Lord to put forward for debate a topic as sensitive and as tricky as this one.

    Clearly, you have touched many raw nerves here and as someone said above many of us need to repent. I don’t own a gun and never want to but I feel convicted that should someone break into my house and hurt my family, I would most likely do anything in my power to stop it. Before this debate, I was sure that that was the right thing to do, but having read Joel’s and Pastor Wayne’s comments in particular I now know I was wrong.

    Joel is right. If we truly seek the truth, God’s truth as we read in Scripture, we have to realise most of what we feel is led by our flesh and not the Spirit of God in us.

    I think this has been a magnificent debate and I for one have learnt so much through it and feel so encouraged to actually get back to the Word and learn to discern what is fleshly and what is God inspired, and above all what is God’s will, truly. God is so very much bigger than us and his ways are not our ways, but we try so hard to mould Jesus Christ into our own desires and needs, instead of surrendering our weaknesses and temptations and letting Him mould us into His image.

    Andrew, I live in the UK though I am Spanish, and I don’t go to church any more because I don’t believe in the system. I don’t think it is biblical and it is there to serve man’s will and not God’s, at least for most part of The Church in the West, but the time I have spent reading your post, all the comments, praying over them and the truths revealed through them, the encouragement I have received and the conviction through them has meant more to me than so many of the Sunday services I used to attend. It has brought me closer to Christ and to the person I want to become in HIM, and it has opened my eyes once again to the absolute need we all have to commune with HIM alone daily so that we are able to discern what His will is for us and our families, away from the stresses of life and the influences of other people. What is at stake is far too valuable to take someone else’s word for it.

    God bless you Andrew! Remember that as you are battered through some of the comments left here, some of which I am sure would have also served to convict you in some areas, you are not the first or the last, and you are in good company for many before you suffered a great deal more precisely for not retaliating when awful harm and suffering came their way. It is thanks to brave souls like that and above all thanks to Christ’s refusal to retaliate and willingness to pick up His own cross that The Church has a testimony to share with the world today. Let’s get to it then!!

    God bless you all and give you the grace to discern His Truth. I for one need this desperately.

    Mercedes

  254. Pastor Wayne. Thanks for your response. I am sorry I seem to have inferred that I downplay the OT. Far from it, the old testament is indeed a “schoolmaster” also a “type” a “blueprint” ( he. He. I am old enough to know what a blue print is) the attributes of the Patriarchs all exhibited an aspect of Jesus who was to come, the early church did ALL its first preaching referring to OT scripture, the new Testament was not yet written!
    Indeed the whole NT era was prophesied in OT scripture!
    I discovered with joy that because of our supernatural NT beginning (Acts 2) one can preach the Cross, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit and not move from the old Testament!
    Acts 2 38 the cut off point of old and new, we find that by virtue of the infilling of the Spirit, we the saints of God are under the New covenant, the Old Covenant l;aw of sin and death is no longer binding on us, if it still is then I am indeed still a dead man, with no hope. Because it ensured my deserving death! Eternal Life, Grace, and Mercy, were eluded and pointed to copiously in the Old, but only in the New was it revealed Acts 2 was the beginning . New dispensation Christianity had arrived at last!

    I agree with you, “text without context is pretext” However I claim that acts 10:34 has plenty of scripture old and new that supports my case – in this case. (Unsaved man a different kettle of fish) One is Romans 2
    God lifts the mean man up and brings the mighty man down He is the Great leveler; man exalts man and also debases him. Man bids the rich with diamonds sit at the front and the man in rags at the back! James 2:2
    In the context of Andrews post and the question “But what is so “Christian” about owning guns anyway” my answer would be “Nothing” unless you were in a rural, wildlife, situation where gun use as the lethal weapon it is, could to be justified I have been there. I do not believe i could ever use it on fellow man whoever whatever i perceived him to be! Unsaved man’s sin is his evil unrepentant heart ALL his problems including weapons, inhumanity to man, poverty, famine, et al, I see as the symptoms of sin. Get rid of the fundamental – sin and the incidentals -symptoms (which man legislate against – gun laws etc) will melt away. Sadly as usual man only battles the symptoms and not the disease. That must be why after 2,000 years man is still wrestling with himself and God. The fig tree died from the bottom up not the top down!
    Maybe Wayne, that last paragraph above is all i should have posted in the first place?
    One more question though please, pleas do not think me stupid. When you write God “told” you, do you mean the thought was planted by Him, or he spoke to you?

    Pr Michael

  255. If we are indeed His saints, then our weapons are not carnal! but supernatural. With carnal weapons man can only destroy the body – God says do not do that! and do not fear those who can ONLY do that!
    .
    Love our enemies. do good to them that hate us, pray for them. Vengeance is His not ours.

    With the mighty weapons He gives we shall overcome the works of sin, its author shall flee from us. The result of the victory He won for us is not death, but eternal life with Him who has loved us
    Pr Michael

  256. Joel,

    What I am hoping and praying for is that I am never, ever put in a position of trying to defend myself or any of my loved ones by use of
    a gun, or any other type of lethal weapon.
    I am, and have always been, a person of peace, but in all honesty,
    I am not sure what I would do should something like this happen,
    and I cannot make this decision for others.
    I know what I believe, which is thou shalt not kill, but what would I do
    should one of my loved ones life be threatened, and I am there and
    able to try and stop it ?
    Heaven forbid
    I do not know, since I have never been there, and again, I say, I hope
    and pray that I never have to find out.

  257. ValleyAnt Jan 19th 2013

    Norma Auge Dowling wrote: “Many are called to turn the other cheek to not fight back. Some are called to fight. Let not the hand say to the foot I have no need of you. We are to consider the whole word of God. We are instructed to recognize both the mercy and the severity of God.” Along with the same post, you wrote out the sum of this topic. There’s no further need to debate and dabble. “There is a time for everything.” David had mighty men whose business it was to kill; and David himself killed at times on a continual basis but was still considered righteous. The Lord told His disciples to buy swords and told Peter not to use his the way he did. “There is a time for everything.” Every part needs the other as Dowling wrote.

    Ramone Romero, thanks for that link that talks about the heart of all this stupidity: American righteousness and the lie that America was founded on Christianity. Only the exceedingly self-righteous can kill and murder and deceive and oppress and then say, “We are right with God.” This is the history of America, and we see the fruit which justifies (confirms) the beginning. Let’s get over that hump. Paul said, “Whatever was to my profit I now consider loss… that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ— the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith” (Phil. 3). There’s much profit in being ‘American’, and most people won’t release such privileges of ‘innate righteousness’ in exchange for “the righteousness that comes from God”.

    Greater still is the futility of this topic at this time. Everything needs to be discussed, but only in each one’s time. There are much more important issues and problems than gun issues that need to be addressed among Christians. We should be focusing on such issues, especially issues that reach the heart from which proceeds every aspect of life (i.e. hearts are where the real problems lie, not in government or gun control or anything else we can blame for all the problems we see now). I’m concerned that with such wickedness and darkness taking refuge in our own hearts or/and the hearts of so many, we aren’t addressing the roots but are attacking the many branches where there can be no victory or resolution. Insanity. It never worked and can never work.

  258. Is there anyone among us who can truly say what they would do if
    they saw a loved one; perhaps their child, or their spouse, or parent -
    whoever they might be, have their life threatened, and we were
    able to do something to stop it?
    If we are truthful to others and ourselves, what would your answer be?

  259. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Many here claim that we in America have an “American Christianity” that you claim is tainted by American values that do not line up with the Bible.
    Do you think perhaps that many of you also fall into the same trap?
    You already have your freedom stripped from you and you are forced into submission, you would be in serious trouble if you stood up against your government and demanded freedom.
    Therefore you take on a pacifist gospel.

  260. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Many here claim that we in America choose patriotism over Christ.
    Why cannot we be patriotic Christians? The appostle Paul used his citizenship as a Roman for his advantage when necessary. It is not imposible to be both.
    As an example: on a smaller scale. Can any of you who have children be involved in your child’s school and also be Christian. If you go to a play at your child’s school are you “choosing secularism over Christ”? It is posible to do two things, but only one can be the master. If there is a conflict then Jesus takes presidence. I would not go to a Harry Potter play and my grandchild’s school.

  261. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Some time ago God showed me and some others that America would enter an internal war. You can call it civil war or revolutionary war or anything you like but it is coming. God showed me plainly that many Christians would be tempted to be part of a war against the government and that this war would be part of his judgment on the U.S.A. and we should not get involved. The current government’s actions are because of God’s judgment so he who resists this government resists God’s ordinance.

    Global war is coming as well and America will be attacked and after all of these things I saw a time of peace again in the land. America will be humbled and once again look to God as it’s provider and defender.

    I will look for some files of dreams and visions to post and if I find them I’ll post them on this topic.

    The message to Christians here in America is the same that Jeremiah told to Judah, submit to God’s judgment and it will go well for you, resist and it will cost some their lives and others their freedom.

  262. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Prophetic dream of Judgment

    Winter 2005

    While sleeping in the winter of 2005 I had a night vision. My wife and I were walking up from the lower end of our hayfield and rounded the tree line when I saw Brother “J “ (a brother in Christ) coming around toward us from the front of our barn. My wife and I stopped and I called out to him as he was walking toward me. “Is there a tornado coming?” He answered “yes”. I called back “is it going to destroy your house?” He said “yes”. Now he is standing right in front of me. I asked him “is it going to destroy my house?” He said “yes”. I asked him if he had prayed to God to spare us. He said that he had, to no avail. I got a pit in my stomach and turned toward my house and started walking. He asked where I was going and I told him that I was going to petition God. He said that he would also try again. I hurried into the house trembling the whole way. I quickly moved to my bedroom and knelt down to pray. When I looked up my roof was on fire and the flames were penetrating the ceiling. I ran through the house ushering everybody outside. When we were outside we backed away from the house looking at the roof. No fire and no smoke!

    I turned around and in the air near where I saw first saw Brother “J “ was a very large angel. He was approximately 18 feet tall, very muscular, blond hair, blue eyes, sandals and his garment was two dimensional fire (awesome). When I saw him I was struck with fear. I was afraid that my children might say something wrong but I couldn’t respond to warn them. He looked right at me, He was a fierce fellow. I don’t intimidate easily but my knees were weak. He held a scroll in front of him, he was peering over the top and reading it upside down (the words were facing away from him). The scroll was long and wide, from just under his chin to just above his toes and wider than he was. After reading the scroll for a few moments he raised his head and spoke something in an unknown language. He looked at me and let go of the scroll which rolled up with a snap and vanished. When he looked at me it was a fierce angry look. He then returned his gaze straight ahead (due east). He very quickly accelerated into the eastern skyline. He continued to accelerate as he went. In fact he was gone in a blink and some of the two dimensional flames licked off of his garment as he left. I was standing trembling in awe and fearful of what this meant. I then awoke and was shaking, filled with dread and I didn’t know why.

    Interpretation:

    The first part with Brother “J “ was a confirmation that judgment begins in the house of Yahweh. None will be exempt but the repentant will be forgiven. In real life Brother “J “ and I suffered loss for not watching and keeping our garments, but God had mercy when we repented. The judgment coming would awaken the household of Yahweh to true repentance and holiness.

    The second part with the Angel was confirmation of the judgments of Yahweh going out into the whole of the earth. The scroll is the decree of God from which the Angel proclaims God’s judgments.

  263. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Civil War in U.S. – 12/18/10

    My 16-year-old daughter, Maryann, had a dream a few days ago. She dreamed of civil war against the current government. The scene was very chaotic and those in rebellion to the government were going house to house forcing any and all men to join with them. Many of us Christians were in hiding, not willing to join in a rebellion against the government.

    She awoke in the middle of the night with a strong taste of blood in her mouth. Her 13-year-old sister, Aimee, woke up as well and immediately asked her what was wrong. The 16-year-old said that she had the taste of blood in her mouth to which the 13-year-old asked, “Were you dreaming of war?” Somehow she knew that she was dreaming of war.

    Last November my three-year-old son, Jeremiah, slept with Mom and Dad. He awoke at 5:30 AM yelling, “War is coming … people are dying … people are crying to God.” He has no idea what these things are. It woke me out of a dead sleep and I sat up and looked at him. He was wide awake and started telling of hearing a noise: “pop, pop, pop,” he kept repeating. All day he kept talking about big balloons coming and looking out the window. He said, “Maybe they won’t come; maybe they will pop.”

  264. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Can a Christian join the military? Can you vote in favor of a law that gives freedom of speach, freedom of religion? On a political scale, freedom of religion will also free people to serve other religions also. But only Christianity is outlawed when freedom of religion ends. It is true that Christianity is thriving in non-Christian nations, but does that mean that we should become a non-Christian nation also? If we already have the freedom to serve Christ, should we not do what we can to keep that freedom?

  265. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Open Vision of Destruction

    Kenneth R. Atnip

    While having this vision I had insight to the people’s thoughts, feelings etc.

    The vision:

    While driving in the late 1980’s with a Christian brother in the passenger seat I had a vision which I relayed to him while continuing to drive. I was able to do both at the same time by the power of God.

    I saw dust or ash covered almost everything approximately ½ inch thick. The trees were bare almost no green thing existed including grass and weeds. Everything was dry, no water anywhere to be seen including the streams and creeks, they also had the dust / ash in them. Here and there, there would be a stem of a weed or grass with perhaps one or two leaves at the most. The sun wasn’t shining and the sky was an eerie pink / gray. The atmosphere was extremely dry and cool. The houses and buildings were all in disrepair, filthy gray and almost worthless. I wondered what could this be, what could have happened to cause this destruction and despair?

    I saw a small family which consisted of a father, mother and a small daughter about 5 years old. They were living in a cardboard shelter hastily built with a small fire ring made from stones in front of it. They were dirty and shabbily dressed, rags tied around head and hands for warmth etc. They were digging in a dried up creek bed looking for small rootlets and such to eat. The mother would taste them and if they were edible she would give them to her daughter, she was in great despair for her child. The father would find something to eat and turn his back on his wife and child while he ate it. (This made me sob in my spirit uncontrollably). I saw many others like this scattered throughout the land.

    I saw a group of armed thugs moving in the distance, less than ¼ mile away. They had come out of the cities once they used up the resources there to continue their raping and pillaging ways. They left a wake of destruction in their path they destroyed what they did not steal. Houses were burned etc. I saw many others like this scattered throughout the land. They were passing by and didn’t see the family because the family was behind a small hill through the woods. The husband heard them and ascended the hill just enough to spy on them. He watched them for awhile, looked back at his family and followed after the thugs. He thought that his chances of survival were better with them than with his family. He joined up with them and left in their company, becoming one of them. The wife watched in great despair as he left, all hope was lost.

    I saw cities abandoned by the inhabitants, those who could leave had. There were some elderly and infirm who had stayed. They were throwing trash and sewage from their windows into the streets. I saw no form of government or infrastructure anywhere. I saw many others like this scattered throughout the land.

    Very few people were left anywhere whether city or countryside and those who remained were hard pressed to survive. With fear and trembling they both ate and drank not knowing where the next would come from.

    I saw a white cottage type house with a white picket fence. The sun was shining there with white fluffy clouds in the sky. There was green grass in the yard and green trees, some with fruit. There was a vegetable garden and a hand dug water well with pure clean water in it. An older gentleman and his wife lived there; they were Christians and walked with God in purity. They suffered no lack even though there was no electricity or gas etc. I saw many others like this scattered throughout the land. I was concerned for the older gentleman and his wife because if the armed thugs.

    I saw a militia, well organized and fairly well provisioned comparatively speaking. I thought to myself that they would bring stabilization, law and order. I thought that they would be a wall for the people against these armed bands of thugs and restore the government.

    The militia came to the older Christian’s place and they welcomed them in. They used their resources and place as a command post. They forced them to serve them while they were there. They trampled dirt all over the house and when they were hungry they ordered the wife to cook, clean etc. The man was forced to carry water and garden etc. The militia was not interested in doing good they were interested only in serving their cause. They trampled over everyone and everything to gain control over other militias. They were only interested in their war.

    When the resources were all but gone the militia left the Christian’s place. The grass was browning with bare spots, the water in the well was slightly muddy, the fence was broken, the garden was trampled and the house was dirty, and in somewhat disrepair. However things were still better than they were outside the fence. The joy and peace that shone on the face of the Christians was gone and replaced by a look of concern and shame. That which was gone would not return things would remain as they are.

    I saw no viable form of government or infrastructure throughout whole of the land. The people were left to defend and care for themselves, except the Christians who trusted in Yahweh. God provided for and defended the Christians. Those who trusted in the militia (arm of the flesh) suffered loss.

  266. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    We will have 5 years of terror and turmoil beginning very soon.

  267. Sheeja John Jan 19th 2013

    Had been wondering about the source behind the write-up ‘Why do Christians love guns? Though many believe that it was appropriate and timely, I have doubts!!!

    Andrew Strom, Would you please explain why Yeshua asked the disciples to sell garments and buy sword in Luke 22:36? It is understandable that our life nor the victory depends on the weaponary; but there would have been ample reason for Yeshua to make that statement….

  268. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    I too believe that the United States in headed for a civil war or something to that nature. I have friends who are in the “Patriot” movement so I hear of things happening that the media will never report.
    In a nutshell, here is my conclusion to what I hear.
    There have been hundreds of thousands of assault rifles sold in the past year.
    There have been laws and rules put into force against assault rifles.
    Why would this conflict be?
    The powers that be (PTB) want to do away with the authority and superiority of the United States. Therefore, a move to rile up the people has been put into play.
    Arm the people and then make laws to make them revolt against the Governement.
    The underlying purpose is actually to cause the individual states to cecede from the union.
    This will cause the United States to go the way of the USSR.
    Individual States will not have the power of the United States.
    Divide and conquer is the idea.
    The USA will lose it’s world domination.
    So, what is the Christian response to all this?
    I am not sure what to do, but I know I will continue to serve my Lord regardless.

  269. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    KennyAtnip– I only skimmed over your posts, but i have this one thing to say. (I do believe horrible things are coming)
    Judgment is not against the USA. If God were to judge the USA, He would also have to judge the nations in Africa for their attrocities of genecide, He would have to judge nations in Europe for their open drugs and sex on the streets of their cities, etc.
    God is judging the Church. We must learn from OT Israel. They compromised their faith and mixed it with the religions in the nations around them.
    The Church has compromised it’s faith and mixed it with the worldly ways.
    I see the possibility that God has put president Obama into office because He is sending the Church into captivity just as He did OT Israel.
    Remember, the remnant that was faithful also went into Babylon. They were commanded to serve God there, to build houses and make their home there because they would be their for a long time. The remnant continued to serve God where they were.
    We must do the same.

  270. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Journey,

    the difference between what you say and what I say is that I’m relating to you what God showed me /spoke to me etc. I have been blowing this trumpet for many years now and have been laughed and mocked at but now those who heard the message many years ago have seen these things systematically lining up and happening.

    God is judging all nations, with global war. I warned some years back that the nations would enter a time of civil unrest (happening now all over the world) and from this wold come a global war, millions will die.

    You should take the time to not only read everything I posted but to pray about it, seek God’s face.

    I didn’t mention that foreign troops will be on American soil and in power for a season. Much land will be gone from the nation after these things and few citizens will remain. America will be powerless in world events, our opinions will be brushed aside.

    I saw a time of peace and relative prosperity in the land in around the year 2023. What happens beyond that I do not know.

  271. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Kenny– I think we are both on the same page, just with minor explanations. I don’t believe God is judging the nations because He has already judged all sin by His Son on the cross.
    I think He is using the actions of the leaders of the nations to judge His Church. The apostasy in His Church is not just in America or just a few nations, but it is world wide.
    By the actions of the nations (leaders) God is saying to His church,”if you will not serve me the way I have commanded you, considering all I have done for you over the last 2000 year, then you will not continue to make a mockery of ME!”
    I believe God is sending the Church (as we know it) into captivity and only the remnant true and faithful will continue to serve Him.

  272. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    I should also mention that at one time I thought it was my “Christian duty” to defend the U.S. Constitution with my life. God spoke clearly to me that he did not pay such a high price for me to lay down my life in defense of any kingdom of this present world.

    He has called us to work in the Kingdom of God…

  273. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    God bless you Journey, while on your journey home. (grin!)

    peace to you..

  274. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Kenny– I am inclined to agree with you. I own guns and believe in the responsibility to protect my loved ones, but I cannot see any hope in the US Constitution any more at all, God is the only one to be willing to give my life for (and my friends in Christ
    John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends).
    God is renewing my thinking daily.

    PS. as a pilgrim passing thru this land, I believe I am to respect the land God has placed me in at the time. But I also need to be aware of what God is doing in the land and not fight against Him if things begin to go a different way than what I would prefer.

  275. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    I believe this spring the government will begin rounding up people that are on a list. If we are on that list don’t resist or run, god sends some away to protect them.

    God will vindicate the righteous in his time.

  276. DonaldN Jan 19th 2013

    Kenny– that advice is the same as that given to the Israelites. Don’t resist when King Nebuchadnezzar comes to take you away. If you go willingly you will be established in a foreign land, if you resist you will die. (we may or may not actually die, but our lives could become so miserable we will wish we would die)
    Good advice for all of us at this unsettling time.

  277. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    Yes Kenny, Good advice. It is better to serve God while in captivity than to die resisting His purpose. God is doing this to the Church because of their pride and arogance. God is humbling His Church and weeding out those who are the false teachers and preachers. A false teacher will not continue when he is faced with serious persecution.

  278. harvestistipe Jan 19th 2013

    Ken A
    Some time ago God showed me and some others that America would enter an internal war. You can call it civil war or revolutionary war or anything you like but it is coming

    Ken I remember your visions/dreams and your daughters.

    Ken I believe the Lord has also shown me this a few year ago. I believe God has lifted his hand off of America, the land he established for the gospel to go out from in great power, all over the earth, andtoday as we see we have since removed God from this nation and are an ungreatful adulterous nation, full of many obiminations and idols
    .
    There are three parts to Gods judgements on a rebellious nation, the third being he turning that nation over to its enemies.I have written about this and I believe this is where we are at right now, only it is much deeper than all this, it will also include the church and the persecution that is coming against Jesus true sheep, in this nation,and it will be inflicted by the apostate church, they will hate us the word says they will betray us.There is going to be a huge shift in those whom claim the name of Jesus, You will begin to soon know who is Christs and who is not I also saw an earthquake that would literally split this land.

    oh my, THE CRY OF THE LORD
    “Come Out from the evil among you, have nothing to do with such unrighteous darkness, that rules this nation, touch not that which is unclean.”
    Awaken saints, Jesus is on a mission he is seeking those whom are seeking him, he is ready to manifest himself to his bride in ways you can not even imagine,he has an eternal plan the eyes of the Lord looks all across this earth, seeking those whom are his, you are marked with The Seal of God, the Holy Spirit, be filled,I say be filled! Arm yourself, putting on the Lord Jesus Christ and march forward fully armed, your lamps full his true witnesses who go throughout the whole earth

    This is truely where our focus needs to be, I can’t express this enough. only that which is for Christ will last all else will burn up.

  279. In SOuth africa there are 50 murders a day & out of 4000 women respondents one in four had been raped in the last year & 25% of men interviewed said they had raped at least one woman.
    The govt is talking of making sa a gun free country but we all know that means only criminals will have guns. We have the worst police force in the world & our judicial system is all but collapsed. BUT strangely enough there is NEVER any talk in christian circles about fighting to keep our guns OR ANY OTHER LAW. Prayer is our answer
    Wayne, I agree on nearly all you said, but to say the Bible will approve in some circumstances for the general populace to take up arms against its govt is to preposterous to imagine. The Lord Jesus was born into a counry with a savage government & all he said regarding them is to obey them, pay your taxes to them & pray for them.
    My mind boggles at the thought of taking up arms against your government for some of the reasons given.
    Dear Americans please wake up, do you know what youre saying? Well said Joel, absoluteley right my brother.
    Do we believe the CHurch is Gods answer to the world? I hope so because He entrusted His Gospel to it. It is certainly not in guns & fighting.
    Folks, Gods not judging anyone. Just like every individual, we reap what we sow. God allows stuff to happen to turn us to Him. He is a good God who loves us & His Grace & Mercy is still available to all. When God judges, we will all know it, there will be no debate about it.
    Don’t forget, the majority of americans voted for Obama. You all have a chance to pray fervently & then vote next elections.
    Such a furore about gun ownership, how do you possibly vote for a pres. who supports the murder of small children? but fight for gun ownership!!! I didn’t hear anyone suggest taking up arms to stop the murder of babies!!!!!
    Be Blessed – Ian

  280. harvestistipe Jan 19th 2013

    PLEASE pray and weep in the Holy Ghost for Christs sheep, please begin to pre-pray and weep in the Holy Ghost for those whom the Lord will put in our path that we may reach for Christ. This is the heart of God look for divine apointments be prayed up be ready.
    God Bless

  281. Kenny, harvest,journey etc………..
    TO the ones who are prophesieing of coming judgments………
    You are RIGHT.
    Let us look at the scrips and see how often nations were warned to repent. How often GOD warned and kept warning even after the warning of HIS judgments.
    But to the peoples and nations unto whom HIS warnings fell deaf
    JUDGEMENT came.
    HOW many years…………….have christians prayed for america to repent. HOw many…………….
    ITs been a LONG time. from abortion to gay marriage
    this nation , its govt does NOT hear. YET has been warned
    over the years and seasons to repent. BUT she does NOT repent.
    Not only does she not repent she only worsenes.
    A time of great judgment is coming. First upon the church
    will be a time of great dearth and perscutions. TO try those,
    to make those white in the blood of the lamb.
    THEN those who persecuted, who forwareded the affliction
    will be judged. BUT a far worse punishment for those who did
    not repent. We are soon to fill up the sufferings of Christ.
    But as Christ once said………………when he told the jews not to weep for him, he said IF this has happened in the green tree
    what do ye suppose will happen to the dry one.
    YES judgment always begins at the HOUSE of GOD,
    whose house we are, IF we hold fast the confidence of our faith
    in HIm , faithful till the end. But how much worse on those who
    have rejected the LOVE of the truth.
    One needs only to have eyes to truly see and ears to truly hear
    to both see and discern the signs of the times.
    And time grows very short. New age leads the world now,
    and the all faiths, all roads lead, is gaining ground very fast.
    Many faiths are uniting under one COMMON belife of world peace and unity. and many of these are speaking of a coming GOD man who will lead the world into peace and unity.
    THIS will NOT be GOD in flesh. THEY say out of chaos comes order. Many factions of elites have been working long and hard
    to bring about a world govt and a world relgion.
    as of late…………………..both grow very fast. The son of perdtion
    destroys many through PEACE. this peace and unity and all roads lead is FALSE. JESUS is the only way.
    Even as we speak , physcology, new age, has brought together
    a study to demonize fundamentlist christainity.
    WHILE they focuse on the dangerous ones, and use the viiolnece
    of right wing extremists to furthur their cause.
    THEy have linked FOUR basic belifes into these .
    And with these four……………have also LINKED all
    TRUE beleivers in to this group of potential terrorist.
    Again they focus on the dangerous ones to promote fear
    in the public about fundametnal christanity. They use
    their evils to gain ground and to bring the world against
    the TRUE beleivers. YES, even men like me
    who beleive to NOT resisit evil, to love all, to pray for even mine ememies. to pick no arms, but to only pray forgivenss for them
    even if they kill me. BUT still i am on this list as a potential terroist
    as a fundamentailst christain.
    WHY……………..
    LEt me tell you all the four points they claim make a dangerous
    or can make a dangerous christain terroist.
    Number one……………..those who hold the bible as infallible
    as GODS word.
    number two………..Those who beleive in the necessity of
    being born again.
    number three………..those who have the desire need to evangelize the gosple
    and number four those who believe in revelations as end time
    prophecy.
    WELL………………….that SHOULD BE ALL TRUE CHRISTAINS.
    thus know i am counted as a potential terroist.
    THE enemy is clever, the end time persecution is coming.
    Any who picks up arms against this govt, NO matter HOW evil it is…………IS only being used of satan to create the chaose needed
    for fear to create the NEED of TOTAL world govt control.
    THE devil is using BOTH SIDES to bring destruction upon HIS true enemies……………US the peacful christains.
    AND we had better be made wise in CHRIST, in sound doctrine
    or many will fall away. I am off to go bring their OWN words to you. See, i am not a man who believes in gossips or rumors
    I test all, and find OUT for myself. and what i have found out
    TELLS me TIME is getting VERY short.

  282. Andrew, You don’t understand common law nor the American legal system. Unless you are a Christian pacifist, you are morally obligated to be armed in the US. Go read the Declaration of Independence.

    Armed Christians are the only thing standing between the tyrants and the cold blooded murder of millions. People like you decrying our God given and blessed right and obligation to self defence are doing the devils work.

  283. In Apocalypse, a patient study of Christian fundamentalism based on extensive interviews over a five-year period with members of apocalyptic communities Charles Strozier identifies four basic beliefs as fundamental to Christian fundamentalism. 1) Inerrancy or biblical literalism, the belief that every word of the Bible is to be taken literally as the word of God; 2) conversion or the experience of being reborn in Christ; 3) evangelicalism or the duty of the saved to spread the gospel; and 4) Apocalypticism or Endism, the belief that The Book of Revelations describes the events that must come to pass for God?s plan to be fulfilled. [1] Revelations thus becomes an object of longing as well as the key to understanding contemporary history, to reading the news of the day and keeping a handle on an otherwise overwhelming world. Each of these categories, Strozier adds, must be understood not doctrinally but psychologically. What follows attempts to constitute such an understanding by analyzing each category as the progression of a disorder that finds the end it seeks in Apocalyptic destructiveness.
    HOWs that for THEIR OWN WORDS…..
    like as in pre hitler germany……………FIRST the jew was demonized, made to LOOK evil………….
    but friends…………………..what began as words and studies
    would later result in the bloodshed of over six million.
    HITLER was occult…………….new age is the occult
    ONLY NOW………….its all about peace and saftey, and world unity.
    and the studies on those who wont EVOLVE are being done .
    soon it wont just be words…………
    AND for those who would dare pick up arms………
    shame. NOT only will you LOSE your life
    you put the rest of the lambs in harms way.
    NOT that i speak in fear of my own life.
    WHEN that time comes i pray GOD is glorified
    by my life or death. EITHER way to GOD be the glory.
    FOR when wetake patiently our persecutions
    GOD is glorified on our behalf. I suggest we all go
    back to ONLY bible reading. SEE what JESUS said
    what the apostles said and did. Cause if we aint of the TRUTH
    of his every WORD……………we aint OF HIM.
    I love you all. And i pray the LORD send out laboureres into
    the harvest. LET us live and walk as DID CHRIST. amen.

  284. Pete, you don’t understand Gods laws of liberty & His way. The only thing in the way of all the people is God. Were calling for prayer, & faith & trust in God who is more than able to keep that which we commit to him. Pray like Jeremiah & Hesekiah & Isaiah & others, believe not me but the Bible, it’s our only hope. No plan B
    In SA were on the same road as the US but MUCH farther down. ONLY God can change us & the world, it’s past anybodies ability.
    Blessings – Ian

  285. HELLO IAN from SOUTH Africa!!!!!!!
    WELL said. WELL spoken.
    the problem with many is their hearts on not on the TRUTH
    but rather on having the easier life, cares and pleasures.
    I felt a heavy sadness when i seen the truth you said.
    MANY will fight to protect guns…………..but babies die in the womb
    every day. I too am from america.
    BUT PRAISE be to GOD for calling me out of darkness
    and into HIS LIGHT.
    now as a stranger, i walk waiting for the city of promise
    which wll ONE day CoME when JESUS does.
    THIS world, its cares and pleasures, and carnal reasonings
    of men aer DEAD. and if the blind lead the blind

    BOTH fall. The soldier once asked JESUS
    and what shall i do……………JESUS said be content with your wages and DO NO VIOLENCE to any man.
    SHOOTING or KILLING is violence. MANY resisters often
    FORGET that last part. WE are NOT to kill PERIOD.
    BUT TO PRAY. amen.

  286. and heres a real kicker……………..I used to be in the marine
    corpse……………..overseas…………….kuwaitt, iraq, etc……..
    but THEN i was NOT OF GOD.
    wasnt till years later…………………i was LED to GOD.
    THEN all things OLD , of the old man died and the new
    inner man was born.
    THIS is NOT MY KINGDOM……………….
    WE must not be as the world. OR we are OF the world.
    WE are to be a new creature. New . Crucify the flesh
    and stop reasoning as men. LET the TRUTH fill your hearts.
    SUBMIT all unot GOD, only then can one resist the devil, and he will flee.
    JAMES once told the church if you love your neighbor as yourself
    you do well. but IF you have respect of persons……..YOU commit
    sinand are convinced of the law as TRANSGRESSORS.
    HOW much WORSE if you KILL a man…………………..
    WE need that FIRST LOVE in our hearts………..
    many have waxed cold. the love of TRUTH , for truth
    is nOT in them. and istead of repenting
    they fill this void with cares and fights of this world.
    CARNAL weapons………………that fails……..
    LIFT up thy VOICE for understanding…………….
    CRY aloud for wisdom, for knowledge…………
    And you shall be FED TRUTH. I pray this for us all.
    COME BACK to the FIRST LOVE. or the candle wil be PUT OUT.
    STRONG delusion is coming, the son of perditon rises soon.
    TO those who know the LORD……………KEEP warning
    our fight is not carnal………………………
    we are to win souls…………………….we are to preach the gosple
    and to walk as did CHRIST. amen.

  287. Journey Jan 19th 2013

    I read back on many previous posts. I have come to one conclussion.
    This whole thread should be deleted.
    There is far too much condemnation against each other here.
    The pacifist side condemn the aggresive side and say they are of the devil for being willing to kill another.
    The aggresive side condemns the pasives for not being willing to protect themselves and their family.
    Both sides have plenty of scripture to back themselves.
    Both sides are saying, “you are wrong, if you would believe like I do then the whole problem would be solved.”
    There is scripture that suggests that we not bring up subjects that only generate strife.
    That is really all I see here. A bunch of arguing Christians that are accomplishing nothing.
    If we all shut off our computers and went and spent your time in our prayer closet we would all be better off.
    I will do just that. The rest of you do what you will.
    Good By

  288. harvestistipe Jan 19th 2013

    Randall I pray the fire and power of God come back into the bones of Christs sheep ,my heart bleeds for this, seems so much business and distractions have tried to strip Christs sheep of their passion and desire to put the cross before them and the world behind them. Have we lost the cross the sufferings of Christ? a very dangerous place to be.

    I weep to see Christ warriors, and I know it is going to happen,I am beginning to witness this on a very small scale right now, Jesus is awakenig his sleepy bride, and calling her out of her wordly pleasures, and entrapments, and she is rising up I believe all over the earth,
    I know this in the spirit because Jesus has told us this is going to happen and he brings encouragement to those whom are hearing his voice. Jesus is breaking the chains off of those whom will seek him with their whole heart, do not hold back – reach out to the one whom can save us and substain us, He is come to set us free that we might be his earthly vessesls used for his Glory in the worse times this earth shall ever witness coming upon us.He will shield us to the very end.
    May we be counted as the faithful.

  289. Sharon Wratherly Jan 19th 2013

    I fully agree with your “timely” article … My husband, a kind and gentle Christian man, got caught up in the “gun / second amendment” battle and every time the subject came up i would sense the “ugly” strifeful , angry attitude that was gripping him … We just had a long talk about this very subject .. And I kept pressing that our weapons are not carnal but spiritual … And our battle is not political but spiritual … And the best way to battle is prayer and living the Word of God … He is right now reading your book “why I left the prophetic movement” and is very much in agreement with your insights … So this article couldn’t have come to my “inbox” at a better time. I believe he WILL see the light ;) Thank you!

  290. Sheeja John Simple!
    Jesus spoke in parables to them, and without a parable he did not speak .Impetuous Peter misunderstood and brought the carnal sword, he was also still clothed with the self righteouness garment of filthy rags. Not the white robe that Christ would give. Peter at Pentecost was a diferent, new ,man, as we are suposed to be! At Pentecost Peter could use the sword that Jesus had councelled him to “buy”
    This sword is a sharp, two edged sword, it cuts both ways if we “sell” all hating the garment spotted by flesh, and follow Him we are cut off and placed in the kingdom, If we stay rebellious cut out!
    Pr Michael
    l

  291. May all seek the LORD with the whole heart.
    May we learn of Him and be as bereans show study the scrips
    diligentely. The way out of reasonings of men
    are in Christ and can be found when we seek him with the whole heart. Just go as a child to seek the face of His glory in Christ.
    Be given a new heart. It is better to be found in error……….then repent……………then to think we have truth of mens reasonings
    and remain in error. The best way out, is to begin anew.
    Go back with a pure love of reading his word.
    READ the whole of the letters. Just read and learn and have the joy of the LORD. One thing i have seeen, is that some will come out of the churches, yet some of these teachings they keep with them. I was blessed in that i was not in churches.
    Never was raised in one. My dad was atheist and my mom
    a non praticing catholic. I only went a time or two
    with other family memebers at easter etc.
    For many years as a adult i never went to any church.
    Yet i had enough knowledge to say JESUS was Lord.
    i , while in the marines arguued with an atheist. said he was gonig to end up n hell if he didnt beleive JESUS was Christ.
    YET the same night we was both out drinking and having a time.
    FOR i only knew GOD in mouth………..not in heart.
    SO i too was just as LOST as the atheist, yet DID not know this at the time.
    YEARS later GODS mercy came to me.
    IT was on may 30 2006. I was even about to go commit adultery
    wiht another mans wife……………BUT i was convicted in an instant.
    and immediatley i was led right into the bible.
    I by Grace, had no other interrest in mens teachings, no desire
    of the gosples i would see on tbn, etc……….and the few
    churches i would visit , would seem to be MISSING the SPRIIT and desire to SERVE only GOD and brotherly love.
    As time went on by daily reading, and i means hours daily in just
    the bible i found OUT the WHY i had percieved in the spirit
    the wrongs i had seen in the churches.
    and GOD kept me there……………..IN JUST the BIBLE.
    NOW after six years of daily reading in the bible.
    I do see how very true the scrips are, and how they make us wise
    unto salvation through our faith in Christ.
    TO warn is not being judgmental. IF it come from a heart
    that truly LOVES and truly is burdened to save the ones in error.
    The churches have lost the TRUTH. and no longer
    preach both the GOODNESS and SEVERITY of GOD.
    many now preach a false grace and false love.
    ONE in which will NEVER lead the sinner unto the TRUTH
    nor have one to repent and understand the DIRE NEED of CHRIST. TO keep us in HIm, to keep our feet upon the path, the narrow way. When one by GRACE, stays only in the bible
    with just a LOVE of reading the TRUTH……………then the truth sets them FREE. FOR it is HIs spirit in us………………and he
    gives the RIGHT understanding, which will NEVER contradict any other place. IT becomes known and understood clearly.
    WITH this , as i have found, comes a HEAVY burden for the lost,
    for those who are slipping, or are in danger of slipping in sin.
    I cannot rest………………if i see a brother or sister in error or sin.
    IT has become engrained in me, to try and help them to come out.
    My message too has always been GO and read ONLY the bible.
    stop reading what other men have written . JUST read the bible.
    FOR way too many have been misled. and are teaching
    truths and some lies…………and this only waxes wores and worse.
    a little leaven starts littel………………but if it is left unpurged……..
    IT will leafen the whole lump. I see the dangerous in NOT
    trying to purge out the evils in others…………………and
    even in all our flesh. WE must understand.
    everyone has his or her gift. WE must too behold both the goodness and the severity of GOD.
    IT is in our nature to resist GODS truth and be contrary,.
    THIS is in all our flesh. BUT warnings help to keep us
    in line with how we ought to walk. Way too many
    just leave error and sin alone. THIS is why the world
    and the churches are in the condition they are today.
    TOO many men, too many men, dont want to stand up
    or confront errors or sin in churches.
    and left undone it leavnes the whole of the lump
    till NO truth remain. PAUL, james , peter, jude
    and JOHN and others of the early CHurch
    BOTH KNEW and WARNED their OWN.
    THESE letters and warnings were TO THE CHURCHES
    of their days………….and notice how GOD
    warns all seven churches in revealtions.
    MEN need to be constantly reminded of BOTH
    the GOODNESS and the SEVERITY of GOD.
    BOTH. As paul knew our flesh will NOT cease to be contrary
    so long as we are in these earthen bodies.
    THUS the answer is in bringing these bodies, and even all thoughts unto the obediance of CHRIST.
    THE spirit will always warn us not to behold evil
    not to ponder evil, not to act out evil.
    TIS up to us to obey the spirit and live
    or walk after the flesh and DIE. CHOOSE ye this day
    and every day after , daily WHOM ye shall serve.
    and may NONE harden their hearts unto the HOLY GHOST.
    and TEST< test all you hear.
    mens minds will reason out scrips to why we can do or not do.
    BUT a heart after GOD will ONLY DO as JESUS said.
    and NOT do what he said NOT TOO.
    a child like heart……………………is only to TRUST and OBEY.
    NOT to make excuse for how to go around what HE has said.
    TRUST and OBEY. that easy. that simple. amen.

  292. Marc Wildman Jan 19th 2013

    Hello

    You are correct saluting the American flag, singing anthems, wrapping the flag around the Bible is dangerous. I personally do not own a firearm but I firmly believe Americans or anyone in any country certainly has the right to bear arms. If not just for the sake of hunting, protecting oneself in a hostile environment or using it for any safe purpose even for sport–as in target shooting. But trying to associate any of this with Christianity should not be so.

    Let me remind everyone I am an American and the whole Tea Party, Christian conservative movement is hardly representational of true Christianity. Many of those folks are using religion to further their own specific causes. Guns are a last resort in terms of actually having to use them with our second amendment rights. Jefferson was even quoted on this and he was a Deist.

    Someone else said on this forum it’s about balance. Many religious-denominations here in the states not only use but abuse religious freedom(s). So much so, that they are actually bringing judgement on everyone. The man who lives in Mexico and wrote on this forum, the missionary from West Virginia I believe, I think what he said was the best entry on this entire forum so far. God is our strong tower, our rear-guard. He is our defense and we shall not be moved. the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal but MIGHTY through God to the pulling down of strongholds. Jesus said those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

    Do we need armies, some system of defense? Absolutely and they need to be subject to higher laws, government and available to protect their own nation. Back to balance!

    How do we access this divine protection, this power and live victoriously without weaponry? First, we need to know the Word of God, then make application of it. By mixing this application with faith then perhaps we will not need firearms and God will go before us into the battle.

    Bottom line; you can choose to arm yourself with a gun or wear the full armor and walk by faith in Christ crucified, died and was buried and on the third day he rose above this world and sits at the right hand of God.

    I will probably be considered ‘whifty’ saying this; but I believe in God, His only begotten Son (Jesus) so I will choose the latter.

    America doesn’t need guns it needs to repent, turn back to God–it needs an ‘overhaul’ called ‘Revival’!

    Marc Wildman

  293. Andrew Jan 19th 2013

    It strikes me as very significant that the dreams and visions of “Civil War” coming to America were posted above.

    This is exactly why I feel compelled to issue these types of warnings.

    People need to know that the growing ANGER in America is very dangerous – and can lead to much worse.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  294. Roger (NZ) Jan 19th 2013

    Yes Andrew – the rebellions, civil wars, uprising and unrest are increasing in number, and will continue to worsen if our understanding of scripture is correct.

    ****

    To All: Although Andrew did not mention ‘self-defence’ in the above article, may I ask of any who advocate the RKBA as self-defence, what are you defending..? Many have already answered above, saying – our loved ones, family members, and so on.

    As a born-again Christian, believer in, follower of, and disciple of Lord Jesus – surely we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, in the family of our Heavenly Father, Almighty God. I truly believe that He will defend His loved ones, the members of His family, to accomplish His purposes and plans.

    We who are born-again of God, are now of another kingdom – that of Christ Jesus, who is God, and as such, we submit to His Lordship over all of our individual lives.

    IF – we say that defend our mortal flesh against death, and do so by killing another – have we now just taken away the last chance of that ‘aggressor’ to hear about eternal life through Christ Jesus..? Better we share the gospel of Lord Jesus with all such ones, maybe some will repent, believe, and accept the truth of whom He is.

    The very best that we may do is to save our mortal flesh – yet this is not eternal, only our spirit will move on from this ‘house’ of flesh, blood and bone, to receive a glorified body, (a heavenly house) when Lord Jesus returns. We can take nothing else with us, our treasures are stored in Heaven, or should be.

    Is our faith in the saving of ‘self’, are do we truly trust that God knows the numbers of hairs on our head, and is perfectly capable of defending, protecting, caring for those who abide in Him.

    I suppose the question we all need to ask of ourself is, am I prepared to die for Christ Jesus..?

    Or, with my focus on ‘self-preservation’ – has my use of a weapon in ‘self-defense’ just killed someone who Lord Jesus brought to me, to hear about Him..?

    In His love,
    Roger

  295. watchful Jan 19th 2013

    crossjordan7 I was very blessed by your testimony of God’s protection as you serve as missionary in Mexico. The lesson for me is that perhaps if we all were of the same mind to realize that we are all essentially “missionaries” in this world away from our real home then maybe we will have our answer as far as this topic goes, and we can trust the Father to take care of us too, according to His perfect will. How I know it is so easy to say but I pray that by God’s strength I won’t be found killing (literally or figuratively) the very people I’m supposed to be a witness to on this earth for Jesus Christ, remembering that the lost do what they do because they are lost.

  296. Thanks Andrew.

    I served in the US military in the Vietnam War and learned a lot about nationalism, matterialism and corruption in the process. I will never go to war again now that Jesus has shown me His alternative and changed my heart.

    I think that the real heart of the question for those who claim Christ as their Savior is, what kingdom are we of and who is REALLY our Lord? When standing before Pilate to be tried for His life, this was the real issue with Jesus.

    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.”
    (Joh 18:36 KJ2000)

    If our kingdom is from here we will fight and die to keep it. If it is from above and we sit with Christ in heavenly places and we will not take up carnal weapons to do the devil’s bidding for he was a liar and a murder from the beginning.

    “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven…” (Mat 5:44-45 KJ2000)

    A son in Christ,
    Michael

  297. Kenny Atnip Jan 19th 2013

    Brother crossjordan7 and sister harvestistipe I know and love you both dearly. May God richly bless and keep you in his hands for all eternity.

    I may know some of you other brothers and sisters as well, God bless you all whether I know you or not.

    May God speak to all of us concerning these things.

    Andrew, thank you brother for your service even when some don’t appreciate it you keep doing right brother and God will give you your reward.

  298. ROGER, be blessed as well!!!!!!!!!
    harvest is ripe and others as well.
    Be blessed and seek him with the whole heart.
    YES, andrew, both sides are being used.
    Dreams, unctions of the spirit and signs all are showing
    the coming judgments.
    be blessed. and may the LORD be your guide. amen.

  299. Do CHRISTIANS LOVE GUNS??
    by Andrew Strom

    I am writing this because I continue to believe that US Christians are being “driven” toward something very ugly. There is a lot of nasty rhetoric flying around that is the very opposite of Christ-like.
    Some in America are trying to get the Christians all riled up about not being allowed to own “assault rifles” and the like. But what is so “Christian” about owning guns anyway?

    (It isn’t about whether it is Christian to own guns or not, it is about keeping our God given rights in America … America was founded upon God, the bible and the Magna Carta. It is our responsibility as Americans and Christian Americans to uphold our constitution and constitutional rights. This really isn’t about guns, it about governmental overreach and control. Now we are in trouble and are looking a tyrannical government system coming on us. God knows what is going on and wants us to be responsible people. He gave us this country.)

    Personally, I neither love nor hate guns. I used to go hunting and I owned a .22 and a 6.5 Mauser (which kicked like a mule). But they are long gone. I also have US friends with Glocks and M-16s and things – fun to do some target shooting with – but I wouldn’t want to own one. Guns to me are neither to be loved nor hated.
    And certainly they are nothing to do with “Christian rights” or anything of the kind.

    (Again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT GUNS – Our Government is just using this issue to take over. Without guns, how are we to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government? Did the Jews have guns during the Hitler take over? He gathered up and took all the guns in Europe and then there was genocide and he killed all the people he wanted to exterminate.)

    Which is why it alarms me to see high-profile believers seemingly making it a “Christian” issue that everyone should be allowed to own semi-automatic weapons. Reminds me of the facetious remark, “Who would Jesus kill?”

    (And what are you doing right now Andrew, are you making an issue of this? What is the president of Israel doing right now? Defending himself and his country from tyrannical governments … with what? Weapons.)

    We have spoken before about the dangers of mixing Christianity with “nationalism” – of wrapping the Bible in the flag – and calling it ‘orthodox’ Christianity. This stuff is not just dangerous – it is deadly. There have been countless wars and countless millions killed down the centuries by this very thing. Mixing “patriotism” with Christianity and using that to motivate people – to get them riled up and mad enough to go “fight” somebody or riot in the streets, or whatever. Hitler used just this kind of patriotism to get himself elected. And I see this very same anger rising amongst some Christian conservatives in America. You are being “driven” toward something – and it is very ugly.

    ( Again, it sounds like you are doing similar things here.)

    Every Christian should know that our home is in heaven – not in any particular “nation”. Our allegiance is towards GOD’S kingdom, not any kingdom on this earth. So let me very clearly spell it out-

    -Saluting the flag is not a “Christian” activity.

    (Where does it say to not participate in our government affairs in the Bible?)
    -Singing the national anthem REAL LOUD is not a Christian activity.

    (There is nothing un-Christian about it.)

    -Being armed to the teeth is not a “Christian” activity.

    (Again, this is not an un-Christian activity. Are you a pacifist or a Christian, or a pacifist Christian? )

    -War-mongering is not a “Christian” activity. You have gone from us owning guns to being war mongers now. We are Americans trying to protect our rights as Americans and ourselves from tyrants.
    -”Supporting the troops” is not a particularly ‘Christian’ activity.

    (There many Christian soldiers fighting for our freedom and protection of the United States and other countries. We honor, love and pray for our troops who are under order of our commander and chief by the way.)

    -Angrily fighting for your taxes is not a “Christian” activity. Jesus spoke about taxes, I am not angry, I want to fight for what is fair.
    -Shouting and getting ‘nasty’ over Politics is not a Christian activity. Thank God for the blood of Christ.
    -Constantly bad-mouthing the president is not a Christian activity – whether you agree with him or not.

    ( Agree )

    -In fact a lot of this involves behavior that is totally “anti” Christian.

    (You sound a bit anti-American, we are only people, loving God and loving our country. We have emotions, we sin, we are human and we are Christians.)

    -And despite being a great political document, the US Constitution is not a “Christian” document, and therefore fighting and screaming and name-calling over that document is not a “Christian” activity either. True Christians do not stand or fall by the US Constitution.

    (There are Christians and non-Christians who have and will stand and fall for the US Constitution. There has been a lot of blood spent, prayers prayed, and sacrifices galore made over the last 250 years for that political document and for this country and many countries around the world.)

    They stand or fall by the actual word of God. And that is the only piece of writing that they should ever get so stirred up about.

    (If that is the case why did God give us free will and a free country?)

    Friends – we have a great mixing of Nationalism and Religion going on. And it is getting uglier and uglier.

    Now, let me ask you some honest questions here. Have you been guilty of fighting or agitating over these things in the “flesh”?

    (Yes)

    I say, “REPENT”

    (thank-you.)

    And are you guilty of slandering or bad-mouthing the president of your country in a way that is totally un-Christ like?

    (Yes)

    Again I say, “REPENT!”

    (Thank-you)

    There is no excuse for a follower of Jesus behaving that way.

    We are not supposed to be in a “war” over all this stuff. We are supposed to be focused on ETERNAL things – the only things worth fighting about. So let us forget these earthly “distractions”and concentrate on the things that really matter.

    (We are not giving up our God given rights and this awesome country without standing strong on the things that we believe God gave to us … as Christians and Americans.)

    As I have said before, it is time to change the channel and turn OFF the voices of the “agitators” I know, why am I even responding to you? Because I want you to understand my view I guess. before they get you all riled up about the next ‘issue’. And it is time to go out and fight for the gospel and the souls of men – the things that can REALLY make a difference in the nation. Politics can never bring about the ‘heart’ change that is so desperately needed. Revival is what America truly needs! So let us fight for that – and leave the ungodly to fight for their “guns” and their “rights”. We are of a different kingdom. My friends, let us not forget it.

    (Ok Andrew, you can say what you want about this country and the Christians in this country and the non Christians in this country but it is still the best form of government on this planet. If you want to really make a difference and help us “see the light” I suggest you apply for citizenship right away and get sworn in. Then you can renounce you country and swear an allegiance to the United States of America and defend it if necessary, with your right to bear arms (2nd Amendment right)… if you so choose, that’s what the fight is about, our God given right to choose, not the guns!
    In love, an American Christian.

  300. Everyone thinks and is utterly convinced that they are right and that the ‘other person” is utterly wrong, and we are piously assured that it is so that God sees Us as totally right. God does not make clones and He different plans for different folks. And all who wrote and wrote and wrote were right in their own eyes. No one changes any other’s personal beliefs. We try to find one who agrees with us and then we stroke their egos and bravo them, and they do the same to us. God just smiles patiently and I believe likes the idea that we are no apathetic people.

    On the day we should ever stare down the barrel of a gun in our faces, God will give us the grace……to do what He wants for us to do at THAT MOMENT, AND NOT BEFORE.

    So, we may as well drop our rocks and pious thoughts against each other’s leadings and just enjoy His love and share it with as many as we can! FOR ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE A HEART, AND HE NEVER JUDGES ACCORDING TO THE OUTWARD. PRAISE HIM FOR THAT!! AND IF WE ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT, THAT IS WHAT COUNTS! IN THE END!

  301. Hi Pete Greetings
    “Armed Christians are the only thing standing between the tyrants and the cold blooded murder of millions”
    Pete I take this liberty, there are three places I would ask you to read with an open mind. Rev 7 whole chapter. Daniel 4:7 and Isaiah 46 (verse 9 in particular)

    Just one modern instant of this.
    We were on the brink of nuclear annihilation during the Cuban crisis the hawks in USA and USSR said “push the buttons” But Khrushchev and Kennedy said NO, and the world gained time. Extra time for millions.to be born and repent. Satan was again thwarted.
    God has His time for everything, and thus it will happen, always as He wills! There is a time for everything under heaven!
    Take heart. Remember Elisha and the army surrounding Samaria? The whole Syrian camp was defeated and humiliated by just one man of God, and not a sword drawn not an arrow fired! Those defending angels were hidden in the hills to natural eyes but Elisha could see. and now, Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world, we have naught to fear, if we hold fast to the end.
    Pr Michael

  302. Dear Pr. Michael,

    Thank you brother for clarifying. It is sometimes difficult to understand where a person is coming from when in a limited written form such as this forum.

    To answer your final question to me, “YES!” God did speak to me. I have never, ever heard an audible voice from Him, but it has always been an inner voice – sometimes very quiet , other times very strong and commanding.

    I won’t go into all the details, but the Lord told me how to advertize the sale of my guns and what price to ask. I thought I could get a better price going another route and was very disappointed when I discovered the other route would bring even less money. On my return trip from that attempt, God spoke to me again and said “Did I not tell you to advertize in such and such a newspaper and ask this price?” I responded, “Yes.” To which He responded, “Then be obedient.”

    I stopped my car at the first phone booth I came across (in the days before cell phones) and placed the ad in the paper as He had instructed me.

    Twenty-four hours later I drove into my driveway and was followed in by a vehicle which was driven by a person I did not know. He asked if I was the guy with the guns for sale. With my affirmative response he asked to see them. When he looked at them he said he would take them for the amount I had asked for. I sold them to him. There were never any other responses to the ad I placed.

    In further obedience, I used the money as He directed me to. As I mentioned earlier the Lord was taking me through a protracted lesson of learning to be obedient to Him during this time. It seemed to culminate with this incident of selling my guns (which I really “loved” at the time – it was a sacrifice on my part).. However, I have found this lesson to have helped me to obey in subsequent requests/commands from Him.

    Our Lord is such a wonderful and loving Master! I wouldn’t trade what He has given me for anything – including my own life. Personally, I would never kill a person to defend myself, as I believe Christ has told us not to do this in His Word. This, however, does not negate that I believe that God has and still could direct a people to do so under His direction as I wrote earlier. I would be very, very, very cautious that such action by a people would truly be directed by God.

    When it comes to God’s directives, I believe that the Old Testament does direct a society to justly administer the death sentence upon a criminal for certain crimes. This, however, should never be taken by an individual as justification for personal retribution for the wrongs of another against his own person – as seen in Christ’s sermon on the mount.

    May I suggest that, in the future, for personal dialogues such as we have had, that you can click on my name at the heading of my post which will take you to my website from which you can get my email for personal engagement. Or you can email me at [email protected].

    God bless you, my brother and I appreciate your contributions to Andrew’s forums even if I may not agree 100% with all you say (you could likely say the same about me, but that shouldn’t diminish our love for one another, should it?).

    Your servant in Christ,
    Wayne

  303. Sheeja John Jan 20th 2013

    Pr Michael,
    In Luke 22:38 it is written, ‘Then they said, “Lord look, here are two swords.” And He (Yeshua) said to them, “It is enough.”
    Yeshua did not tell the disciples, ‘I did not mean this sword, but the Word of God.’ Moreover in Matthew 10:23, Yeshua says, “But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE THE SON OF MAN COMES.In Matthew 24:15 Yeshua says, ‘Then those who are in Judea FLEE to the mountains. And in Matthew 24:20 Yeshua says, “And PRAY that your FLIGHT may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
    ————————————————————————————————
    If one does not believe in politics or politicising issues; why even go there or draw someone’s attention to things of that sort. Why not just ignore it? Why not just concentrate on the WORD.

  304. Something else that is not talked about much is the Prophecy given to George Washington at Valley Forge. Snopes discounts it as Snopes discounts many things I’ve come to question. However, we are in the third peril of this very prophecy right now. My prayer is that the prophecy be fulfilled. http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/prophesy.html

  305. [quote] Andrew Strom wrote:
    We are not supposed to be in a “war” over all this stuff. We are
    supposed to be focused on ETERNAL things – the only things
    worth fighting about. So let us forget these earthly “distractions”
    and concentrate on the things that really matter. [/quote]

    Andrew Strom,

    This sums it all up, for all who follow Christ in this hour.

    [quote] Michael Clark wrote: Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.” [/quote]

    Michael Clark

    Good point, I think the Lord is telling us what “His Will” is on the whole matter of guns, defending ourselves, etc..

  306. Donna

    After reading the vision, I don’t know if we can say every vision and dream is of the Lord.

    The problem is that America has become worse then Sodom and Gomorrah, and it is spreading its wickedness across the world using hollywood and the media.

    I honestly think Christians want to preserve our manner of life on this earth as we live it here and do not want to lose it.

    This is what we see everyone fighting for, not the promoting of the Kingdom of God but a life of ease in Sodom and America.

    Let’s face reality we do have it easy compared to the rest of the world.

  307. I find it hard to believe how appaling some of the posts are. I struggle to believe that many of them are even christian.
    I think this last blog has had a good result. Its shown us where we really are spiritually ie in our relationship with God & level of faith & understanding of Gods Word. Were trustin guns, govt & our ingenuity more than God to the point that some claim America won the wars & God was on holiday

    ANDREW….WOuldn’t it be really helpful if you gave a good blog on what freedom really means, I mean the freedom Christ Jesus speaks about. That Paul & the disciples had. For example, what it is, how we enter in & live in it & it’s results.
    By the comments I don’t think many understand it & help them understand comments like Joels & quite a few others

  308. Lisa and Butch Seal, May i ask you what your take on 2 Timothy 2 is. In particular verses 3, 4 and 24
    For what it is worth I always understood, from the day i was saved, that verse 3,4, said I should not run for parliament, support this, or that party, drumbeat for the anti this or pro that movement. As I do not belong on Earth. but am an ambassador for a different system, a stranger and pilgrim on earth. If i was ambassador for Her Majesty’s UK government in US and meddled your affairs i would soon be dismissed or recalled from duty? so i must see that i pass muster in the spiritual regard.
    I can assure you that if i was not a Christian i would have spent many sad years in drum-beating flag-waving in conflict with the powers that be, to the detriment of family, friends and self, a totally unproductive life compared to the one I enjoy P.T.L.

    On a light hearted note.
    The Aust. and NZ folk on the whole are a tough bunch, much like our US cousins, and would earnestly contend with you about USA having the “best form of government in the world” Just as well the best is yet to come! Eh!.
    Aussies are also fairly lay-back laconic mob and yet in the natural we seem to hold our own on the International stage!
    Unlike Americans, standing straight , tall, head up, hand over hearts, (is that generally true as i have seen it once among a gathering of about 500 US families?)- play our national anthem in public here, hardly an Aussie heart would flutter! We have an old saying “she’ll be right mate” Amazingly so far it is not too bad, and WE have the “best treasurer” in the world (er, er. cough, we also have a lot of very big holes in the ground and China is paying $US (or is it Yuan) for the stuff that comes from them)
    Pr Michael

  309. ValleyAnt Jan 20th 2013

    Neville Salvetti said, “The Bible says we are to be led by The Spirit in all things. So why is He being ignored in this? Has anyone asked God what His opinion is in all this?” We don’t often ask God’s opinion, because our lives center around what we want/think and what others want/think.

    David Gonzalez, if we are not meant to resist evil at all, then please step casually into a busy street (preferably in the way of an oncoming bus or, preferably, a train) in keeping with ‘all the Law’. When Jesus lashed at the money changers and the apostles opposed the religious leaders, were they being peaceable. What you say about America’s founding fathers is true, but the Word of God allows us to separate between all things. If good is found within bad or bad within good, it should be acknowledged. Americans do generally have a self-righteous ‘cowboy mindset’ of taking up arms; however, this does not mean that the Word is now void when it comes to defending ourselves. You are mixing the heart issues (self-righteousness, pride, etc.) with natural issues (gun ownership, etc.). While it is in fact hard to agree with any type of violence and not be violent in heart, it is still possible. God’s Word (or the Spirit in us) helps us to separate and distinguish between the soul and spirit and natural things. Righteousness doesn’t come about by telling people what’s wrong or right with them but by telling them what God is telling them. Separate between the American mindset (pride and self-righteousness generally) and the rights of Americans (to bear arms along with other rights), and then judge correctly.

  310. ValleyAnt Jan 20th 2013

    I was recently speaking with a minister who at first put himself forth as being righteous (i.e. right with God in heart and actions). His heart then showed to be rebellious like the heart of Balaam who, two separate times, obeyed God at first and then walked in the way of his true heart which was rebellious against God. Like any average American Christian (I say this because I live in America), this minister truly believed his heart was right with God– that he was a good person. As he spoke to me, the Lord began to reveal his true heart to him, and he is now afraid. In the same way that this minister’s heart is now gradually being revealed to him (a Balaam heart that says yes to God at first, as Balaam did twice, but then says no to God and yes to rebellion), so our own hearts will begin to be revealed in these days. No wonder people hate genuine apostolic and prophetic ministry.

    In Luke, after Jesus was born and brought into the temple, Simeon prophesied that because of His presence on earth (among people), the secrets of many hearts would be revealed and that many would fall and rise because of Him: “This Child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.” The thoughts of a person’s heart are the identity the person enjoys or has chosen (among other definitions); they are who a person really is. The revelation of the thoughts of heart will be happening in our days. I am very happy that Obama was elected twice so that American Christians can finally begin to see the vile wickedness and hatred in their hearts as well as many other secrets of the heart coming to the surface. I am happy about this, because everything that is true must have a beginning; authentic Christianity begins in the heart, and while Christians believe we are good people (or at least better than some people), we can never have genuine Christianity. In this way, Obama is a tool in God’s hands to expose our self-righteous wickedness and Christianity and to promote and make way for genuine Christianity which is not based on hatred and murder (i.e. hatred of the heart) but on the unity that comes from walking in the same Person, being of one mind, and saying the same thing.

    Taking a shower several days ago, the water wouldn’t run hot but remained warm. I turned off the cold water, but the hot water didn’t get hot but remained warm. Then the Lord asked me if the water was comfortable, and I said it certainly wasn’t. Then He said to me that He would rather that Christians be hot (all the way in) or cold (all the way out), but that Christians who run lukewarm (those who think they are crafty enough to live for themselves and deceive God into thinking they are faithful to Him by their good works and intentions) must of necessity be ejected from His presence for eternity. (After the object lesson, I told the Lord I understood now and asked for the hot water to return. It didn’t at that time. I stepped out the shower with a greater grasp of why Jesus hates false/half-in/lukewarm Christianity. Often times, there’s nothing like an object lesson in grasping Biblical truth. Warm shower water always sucks, but especially when you, like Jesus, are needing hot water.) As these issues that threaten what makes Americans feel so special surface, chipping away more and more at the safety that spells ‘special’ in America, the thoughts of hearts will surface, false Christianity will be exposed more and more for the mockery of the Cross that it is, and genuine Christianity will slowly begin to rise like the sun when it breaks slowly over the horizon at dawn. Isn’t this good news for those who are looking for something real.

  311. There is only one thing that is sure. When EVERY THING is taken from us in life, personal excuses will still flow. This is a training ground. Life is a gift. God’s Love.

  312. Hello Joan…………….
    Let us be even MORE specific………
    we are told to look at the sufferings of past saints
    and of JOB.
    IF we want to know if our heart is on GOD or on the world.,
    TEST what JOB said when he LOST all………..
    HE did not charge GOD, he simply said
    THE GOOD LORD GIVES and the GOOD LORD takes away.
    I suspect MANY are focused on this LIFE and its cares and pleasures……….WHICH only CHOKE the word.
    LET us read the parables of the seed.
    mathew 13 mark 4 luke 8.
    MANY, and i say many are not even focusing of CHRIST
    and HIS kingdom. MANY will say in THAT day
    LORD did we not do many miracles, and good things…..
    and to the many he will say……….I never knew you.
    IN this day and age…………many have forgotten……..
    that the way is narrow, and FEW only find it.
    the broad gate is BROAD and many enter it.
    MY STRONG advice to all of us…………..
    LEARN to be CONTENT in all circumstances.
    and people we aint even SEEN it hard at all. GO to africa
    LOOK at the straving…………GO to philipenes…………..see the poor. YET LOOK at the poorest of thier christains…………
    A american pastor went to these areas to preach them the gosple
    BUT came back a CHANGED MAN.
    HE said……………………though they were the poorest of poor
    and suffered violence daily, THEY had MORE PEACE and JOY
    and great willingness to give the very little they had away
    to HIM and others………………..
    HE saw, He truly saw………………………..they were RICH
    they had JOY……………..BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRIST
    centered…………….hearts above……………..hearts on
    Christ and hope in his appearing one day
    and HIS promises of eternal life.
    IN amercia as a whole we may have the most material
    BUT we are the POOREST in spirit and JOY of GODS salvation
    i have ever witnessed.
    BEGIN anew in CHRIST…………………LET TODAY
    be the day………………all things are put down
    and the CROSS picked up. EMBRACE the cross
    and understand the cross is not about easy times and cares in this lfe………………..tis about suffering for HIS names sake.
    NOT ONLY , yes……..NOT only is it given unto us to belive in
    his name sake…………BUT ALSO TO SUFFER for his name sake.
    I pray many back to the first LOVE. LUKEWARM is death .
    JOY in GODS salvation. JOY IN THAT. the salvation of the LORD is my JOY and the JOY of the LORD is my strength.
    all else matters not. IF i have abundance tis ONLY MEANT to give it away. IF i lacked all…………………STILL i have ALL
    for i have CHRIST. GET THAT MINDSET. GET that mindset.
    Learn to be content……………..
    What can MAN do to ME? THERE is NO FEAR of man for me.
    HERES the little man can do to me. HE can take all my goods,
    YET STILL I HAVE ALL………..thus my joy remains.
    HE can imprison me in the darkest of places………….STILL i am FREE for i HAVE CHRIST and thus have all HOPE and rejoicing
    man can even take my life……………YET TO BE ABSENT from the body is ONLY to be present with GOD, which is far better.
    SO man can do NOTHING to me………….FOR HE CANNOT
    seperate me FROM GOD. LEARN THIS………………EMBRACE
    the cross…………………..and when persecutions arise
    REJOICE in that day as did paul, john, peter…………..etc.
    FOR then we have been found worthy to suffer shame for his name. LEAP………………LEAP and understand.
    GOD is MY HOPE , HIS SALVATION my joy and my strenght.
    HE is my provider…………….and i fear not he who has power
    to take all material things from me, or even kill this body.
    FOR i dont fear man in whose nostrils is his breath.
    I fear ONLY the ONE who gave man that breath in his nostrils.
    COME what may………………TO GOD be all glory.
    whether through songs of praise, winning of souls, or all my sufferings. TO GOD be all glory. AWAKE……………….
    AWAKE and put ye ON the armour of GOD.
    THIS world is NOT my home……………..
    My hopes and affections are above…………..
    and the REWARD shall be great in HIS DAY. HAving this
    hope , gives me all joy and peace i need RIGHT NOW, through
    all times whether good or bad. RUN for the prize……………
    amen.

  313. One thing that I see in this is that many think we must either live totally in the spiritual world or we are not spiritual. Well, God gave us a natural world to live in and for this body…..if we lose it, we are heading into eternity fast. This life is a training ground for us to practice and learn. Failing often means we are trying and growing.

    We as ministers are way, way too controlling of the life of the sheep!! We need to back off, preach the word, love them, and put away the pointing of the finger and look at our own lives first. Our opinions we have to be very, very careful with.

    A few months ago, I did not believe in Christians protecting their families with guns. Though we are not going the gun way, yet I realize that we have been on the road for many years and may have a faith that younger ones do not have. We do not have children to protect for they are all grown and have the responsibility to protect them. Listening to Nathan Leal on Watchman’s Cry really woke us up to realize that each is in a different situation. And we should never accuse anyone….EVER! We do not know another’s heart.

    Jesus dealt with Centurians lovingly, and and told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. He warned people to even flee from danger. Jesus is our example of dealing with a real world and living in the physical realm. We cannot just bow out. In the beginning we would have had no America If OUR ANCESTORS did not bear the sword and against the tyranny of England.

    We are to get involved with our physical world and influence it for Christ….on the job, in the market place, running for public office, being doctors, lawyers, and owning businesses, attending colleges. I love to get out there and find someone who needs a smile, a little love and kindness. Opens many doors.

    We are not to love our guns or have blood lust, but love Christ and spend far more time in prayer and the Word than cleaning our guns. It is there on a strict….”life or death” issue. And if the govt shows up with a horde of soldiers to take them, give them up or go to heaven quickly and leave your family without father or husband or wife.

  314. IF, the govt comes with hordes of guns to take my life
    then i give it. for either they will be allowed to take it
    or GOD will give me a way out to escape to furthur the gosple.
    Either way , whatever His will is…………..i pray it done.
    MY son will not be without a father…….even in my death.
    NOT if GOD is HIS FATHER. God is father of us all.
    Whatever the will of GOD is………………then i say
    HIS will be done. whether i live till his coming
    or whether i die a maryter. GODS will be done
    His cup he gives shall be drank. And may GOD
    give me strength in all times to DO of HIS will.
    In our harshest of pesecutions………….in our worst of infirmites
    in our weakest…………….THEN tis we find the POWER of CHRIST rests upon us. LOOK at what paul said
    I WOULD RATHER, yes RATHER glory in mine infirmites
    that the POWER of CHRIST may rest upon me.
    in sickness, deaths, perscutions etc……………..for when i am
    weak……………then am i STRONG.
    many must learn this mindset. LET us have peace in this.
    JUST begin anew. JUST go back to ONLY bible reading.
    and SEEKING to please our GOD by faith.
    NOT faith and trust in what can be seen. JUST faith in him
    who cannot yet be seen. This is so contrary to the carnal mind.
    THIS is why WE NEED the MIND OF CHIRST.
    that we be born again of the spirit, his truth.
    the carnal mind cannot recieve the things that be of GOD.
    ONLY the spirit can. JUST begin anew. PUT yesterday behind you . and as a child just ask GOD to feed us truth, wisdom, knowledge, charity upon our hearts. My prayers and heart is for our good. That we grow in GODS LOVE……………that we prosper
    in HIS TRUTH, and grow in His wisdom.
    That we grow into maturity. That we bear fruit.
    That we take patiently all our suffereings. and forgive
    all of their evils against us. To forgive them as GOD
    for CHRISTS sake has forgiven us. That we embrace
    the Grace freely given us in Christ. Let go of our own reasonings
    and get the TRUTH from the bible. FOR the HOLY SPIRIT will
    give us the true understanding in the scrips.
    But GO as a child, knowing, we can know nothing of ourselves.
    ONLY what GOD reveals by his grace . Learn to be humble
    as a child is. Learn to trust and obey the voice of the shepard of the sheep. Learn of HIM. read his words………….
    learn of our LORD. amen.

  315. Jesus dealt with Centurians lovingly, and and told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. He warned people to even flee from danger. Jesus is our example of dealing with a real world and living in the physical realm. We cannot just bow out. In the beginning we would have had no America If OUR ANCESTORS did not bear the sword and against the tyranny of England
    Joyce………………you wrote this……….
    but see it like this……….
    it would not matter where i had been born.
    YES GOD had me born here. BUT my attachments are not
    on where i was born , nor where i go…..
    NOW it matters only on the KINGDOM of GOD.
    a man born in africa, has no disadvantage ……..
    IF HE HAS GOD. Ian knows what i speak OF.
    LOOK at his heart. the phillipenes have some of the poorest christains………..hard times etc……..
    BUT yet they are RICH . Our welfare comes not of this world
    nor our times, whether good or bad.
    OUR welfare, and wellbeing……………..IS OF GOD.
    And our hope remains and will do so till forever,
    IF we remain in HIM. Rome came she left
    NATIONS arise……………..nations fall………….
    BUT THE KINGDOM of GOD ENDURES forever.
    Heavens shall change………………..so too the earth……….
    BUT the WORD of OUR GOD endures forever.
    My heart and prayers are for our good. That we as children
    learn to let go of all earthly affections, and have all affections
    above in heaven……Not here on earth. PAUL said this too in colossians. WHEN our hope is only above………….
    then our hope remains through all times, whether good or bad
    our peace remains, and so too our joy.
    God has given us all things to richly enjoy.
    AND to richely enjoy we must KNOW and LIVE
    this………….TO GIVE is better than to recieve.
    THUS give unto the poor……………..richley enjoy is
    to give away our abundance unto those who truly lack.
    THIS is LOVE. to do MORE for the others welfare………..
    to serve , to walk humbly……………and to do for the others welfare above our own. CHRIST lived that. though he had created all……….yet he came to serve . HUMBLE.
    We must learn to live as DID our savoir. FOR the servant is NOT ABOVE his master. CHRIST did all for our welfare, and all
    for the GLORY of GOD. SO too must we.
    learn of Him. And be blessed.

  316. To all……………….do beware HOWEVER of this new religion.
    ITtoo speaks of giving and redistrubution of wealth.
    They claim to LOVe the poor and be doing for the POOOR.
    YET they deny JESUS as ONLY way.
    THIS new age spirit is deceptive. WHEN obama speaks as does the world on redistribution of wealth………..know
    their hearts are NOT really about the poor……………..they
    hold the bag and say not what they say for the poors sake
    but because they are covetous, tis all about transfer of wealth
    to the wealthy elite.
    ANOTHER once spoke very similiar
    HE said……………..WHY was this ointment wasted……..
    the money could have been given unto the poor……..
    BUT this he said not that he cared for the poor
    but because he held the bag and was covetous.
    JUDAS aaka the son of perdtion.
    NOW we see the same spirit at work in the worlds leaders.
    claiming all is for the poor…………………but
    they hold the bag and want more money.
    the quoate the bible ONLY to their agenda.
    YET are doing all they can to HALT the saying that JESUS is the ONLY WAY……………
    Beware this dark spirit ……………..soon it will manifest
    in the dark one. and soon a time of great betrayal comes.

  317. Gordon Jan 20th 2013

    All those strong christians that believe that god has it all in control and things are going according to his plan, should have the resolve to keep telling themselves that if and when they are starving or gangs are looting and raping your family. Countless thousands have sat passively by and died in the name of god and pre-destination. Manna from heaven? God gave some people enough common sense to be self prepared.

    Obama has stated “my muslim faith” several times (you tube). Obama has stated “my home country of Kenya”
    Obama has stated that the USA is no longer a christian nation.
    Obamas has stated “all this for a damn flag”.

    Time to recognize that this is happening step by step from the nazi playbook.

  318. Andrew Jan 20th 2013

    “My muslim faith”?? Watch it again – it is a total misrepresentation of the context of what he is saying. I am no fan of Obama, but you guys and your over-exxagerations against him are unbelievable.

    REPENT.

    Bless you,

    Andrew Strom

  319. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Those of you who believe Christians should be ultimately pacifist. Do you think your nation should totally be turned over to the evil and anti-Christian forces of this world?
    If you don’t believe this, then you must expect the un-saved of your region to be the ones to take up arms to protect you.
    Andrews question is, Do Christians love guns?
    I enjoy guns for sporting. I have guns for protection. I do not love guns. I do not trust in my gun for deliverance, but as Israel was commanded, I am willing to take up arms and go to battle, but the battle belongs to the Lord.

    Deut 20:4 For the Lord your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
    2 Chron 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you.

    At times Israel had to fight, at times they had to stand, at times they were to do nothing.
    At times they were delivered
    At times they were victorious
    Whether they fought to stood, The Battle was the Lord’s.

    Ps 144:1 Blessed be the Lord my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle

    Prov 21:31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle, But deliverance is of the Lord.

    You cannot say I trust in my gun because I own one.

  320. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Andrew, You have just said “you guys!!!” It is time you stop sitting over there in your country and pointing out that “you guys” are doing it all wrong. How about you just deal with your own politics and leave us to deal with ours. We know that Obama is in favor of the muslims not because of 1 or 2 Utube videos that you see, or what the media wants you to see. There have been laws and rules that are totally in favor of muslims and against Christians here. Most of them you will never know about because the media won’t tell you.
    You are in judgment against us from afar. Deal with your own country.

  321. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    As for those American Christian pacifists, you would be hailing, “long live the queen” if it weren’t for those of us who are willing to take up arms for freedom.

  322. watchful Jan 21st 2013

    Amen Andrew, we are not wrestling against some flesh and blood called Obama. I’m afraid that Western Christianity has been trying to strain out a gnat called Islam all the while swallowing a camel called New Age/Hindu/Buddhist spirits – we need to be spiritually discerning, not carnally minded because our battle is a spiritual one, that’s for sure…After all it isn’t Islam that has weakened the Christian church and left it in it’s present sad condition, is it? I’m reminded of the former Communist witch hunts. It is OUR fault the restrainer is being taken away (ichabod) and things are manifesting and waxing worse without restraint – without the glory and presence of God the church is simply powerless to leaven the society around us any more. I believe this is also a factor in why Nazism was able to arise in a supposed Christian country.

    God bless you for your refreshing words to the people of God, randall lowrey.

  323. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Unfortunately, this is Andrew’s website and he has the right to post what he wants.

  324. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Western Christianity, Eastern Christianity, European Christianity, Asian Christianity, once again, Americans are singled out and condemned as being the wrong ones. Does your society influence your Christianity at all? or are “you guys” the only ones hearing from the Holy Spirit.

  325. Andrew Jan 21st 2013

    There are 2 reasons America is singled out-

    (1) America is the world leader and everything she does flows down to the rest of us.

    (2) I happen to love America and her people on a personal level. So I write out of deep concern

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  326. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Andrew, you claim to have deep concern for America, yet you condemn the system that made America the nation it is now. I admit to the apostasy and new age christianity rampant in this nation at this time, but that unfortunately comes with the freedom that this nation is great for. (also, it is not only rampant in the USA but worldwide)
    Thomas Jefferson quote: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.
    I don’t mix this attitude with my Christianity, but I understand that it is necessary from a political view in order to maintain freedom.

  327. AmericanChristian Jan 21st 2013

    Andrew, one more thing, you say what America does flows down to the rest of the world. Do you not want freedom to believe in Jesus to continue in your nation or is it OK if the USA loses it’s freedom and soon your nation also looses it’s freedom to worship who you choose.

  328. Obama is an enemy of the Cross and the Blood of Calvary. He is not our King, nor our Cesar….but simply put into office to enforce that which is the ruling power of the nation of the USA, the Constitution and it’s laws. He is a Muslim, Communist who has harmed far more than we could even imagine.

    He put into effect partial birth abortion which has the doctor ram scissors into the brain of a full term healthy infant. If the infant survives, the baby is thrown aside and no one is permitted to try to save it or help it in it’s suffering and agony in any way. He has ordered thousand of drone killings in foreign lands destroying the lives of hundreds of innocent children with adults. And we overstate his evils? We shall see about that when he stands at judgment of a Holy righteous God.

  329. Andrew Jan 21st 2013

    I am yet to see any evidence – real “proof” of any kind that Obama is a Muslim or a Communist. Hearsay, slander and gossip are not “proof”.

    But I am sure I am wasting my time saying so.

    I am not a fan of Obama, but the way many Christians slander and bad-mouth him is shameful – literally an utter disgrace.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  330. Sheeja John Jan 21st 2013

    Hope the following verses will give some insight to some of you….

    - After these things Yeshua walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the JEWS SOUGHT TO KILL HIM. – John 7:1
    - Then from that day on THEY PLOTTED TO PUT HIM TO DEATH. Therefore Yeshua no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples. – John11:53-54
    - But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hardpressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless, TO REMAIN IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. – Philippians 1:22-24

    If you have FINISHED your race, depart in peace….if not…hang on and complete your race….

    ..

  331. GaryB, obviously you did not read the prophecy. We are in the 3rd phase of it right now and in the end we become a nation under a flag with the Crown of Christ on it and the nation becomes united. There is GREAT hope in this prophecy and I for one and praying, like Daniel, that it comes into place.

    God bless you all. This thread proves one thing for sure. We are all affected culturally by what we see and what influences we have grown up under and it affects everything, especially how each of us interprets the Bible. Until this bickering is put aside and we, as CHRISTIANS, begin to get on our knees and pray, nothing is going to change except by the grace of God.

  332. Marilyn Crow Jan 21st 2013

    Ian
    I really appreciate all your comments. I also agree that many people`s understanding of `freedom,` is this temporary appearance & as Gary B said `preserving our manner of life.`

    Sheeja John
    I would like to comment on your scriptures. (Luke 22: 36 etc) You had a good point. Why would the Lord ask the disciples to sell their garment & buy swords? And yes I agree it is not symbolic.

    When discerning the word we look at – Who is spoken to, When etc. Here in Luke 22: 36 the Lord is talking to the Jews. (remember He came to them as their Messiah) He then tells them what is ahead for Himself & for them.

    The Lord is about to be denied by Peter & go to the cross. The Lord explains that when they trusted in Him they had no lack but soon after He is rejected, the Nation of Israel will go through many years of persecution.

    Matt. 10: 23 – see v. 6 the Lord tells them to go to the house of Israel & tell them what is ahead for the Nation of Israel. Over the centuries there will be persecution for their rejection of their Messiah till the `end of the times of he Gentiles ruling the world.`

    Matt. 24: 15 – refers to the tribulation, the last part of Israel`s chastisement.

    There is much error & confusion when people read God`s word by putting themselves & the Body of Christ as the centre. It is Christ, His character & His purposes for the 3 groups that we must keep in mind.

    The Body of Christ is a heavenly nation, as has been commented upon by many. Thus like Christ we are not passive but resist the devil, show others another way of operating, in attitudes etc
    The Lord is maturing us, individually & as a Body. He is also exposing the false teachers etc. but they are not in the Body.

    Israel & the Nations are earthly nations & have to use weapons etc to survive until the Lord comes & Judges them. They are all under the control of Satan as God`s word says.

    Hope this helps, regards Marilyn.

  333. Richard Savage Jan 21st 2013

    Instead of cherry picking scriptures to salvage our personal viewpoint, how about we take the whole counsel of God, knowing the mind of our God.

    Wherever the apostles quoted scripture they said, in Isaiah, or someone has written, or it is written. I don’t recall Jesus giving chapter and verse to the devil at the temptation!

    No, the entire system of chapterising and versing the Bible has done us no favours. It’s lead to a text based people not knowing the mind of God.

  334. ValleyAnt Jan 21st 2013

    Limey Pastor wrote:

    “America was born in rebellion and is a country of rebels. God save the queen.

    *sips tea*”

    I chuckled in spite of myself.

    For all you Christians who are racist in heart but who choose not to see it, whose ignorance soars up into the skies (meaning: you make fools of yourselves where everyone can see your ignorance), I am very happy that Obama was elected president twice in a row; and I pray that every election will continue to gore and distress and wound and hurt you until you see that it is sin, and not righteousness, in you that is struggling against what God has allowed. I am also happy that Obama’s election upsets so many Americans and so many Christians. The more I see the hatred and outcry, the happier I am about this, because it is the evil or the Holy Spirit in a man that makes him violently opposed to what is supposedly wrong. I am happy about those who are so hateful that they can’t see the election of Obama as perfectly timed by the global elite for America, a country of ignorant brutes who feel when they are supposed to think and think when they are supposed to feel (the perfect way to avoid any responsibility or accountability). Obama’s election is a multi-pronged attack by a satan-led elite, partially aimed at the massive spirit of Racism in America and meant to cause chaos and then bring order out of it. If those of you who are upset about Obama would stop FEELING and THINK, you might enjoy some peace. You’re full of feelings because you are self-centered to the core, and there is no Life in you. But you think that with hate in your hearts, you are headed for Heaven. With a Hell full of Christians who thought they could never end up there, some of you are still pulling your hair out because a supposed Muslim was selected as president, and adamantly making your way towards Hell. Ignorance. Ignorance. A country full of supposedly intelligent and smart people exceeds every other country in ignorance and a lack of understanding.

    No country or kingdom or civilization remains forever at the top (except the Kingdom of peace without end); it is ignorant stupidity and insolent pride that blinds so many Americans who fight like animals against people (e.g. terrorists) instead of against powers and mindsets and guarantee the fall of this nation. Ignorance. But pride goes before a fall and self-chosen ignorance before destruction. Can this country be destroyed apart from it. Like stiff-necked Israel, like the Pharisees who opposed Jesus, like the religious leaders of Paul’s day who resisted the Holy Spirit, American Christians resist truth and Life, and Death (already here but the ignorant can’t see it) must be the result. Jesus wept over Jerusalem who stoned and killed prophets and men of God saying, “How I would have longed to gather you together as a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.” The same cry can go out over America who is ruled by Death (apparently, most people cannot see this) and therefore every good thing that enters this country is forced under the Law of sin and Death (Hollywood is a great example where they force you to plastic smile but make sure to keep out all true happiness), obstinate and rebellious, blind and ignorant, rushing like fools towards final and eternal death, exalted in pride and self-righteousness, refusing to listen to words that are spirit and give Life. When will you hypocritical Christians, who call yourselves Christians but show God to be a hateful and prejudiced Person, stop perverting the undefiled and pure righteousness of the Lord. Will you escape judgment for painting God in such a negative light. The righteous live by faith, and there is no prejudice and hatred and ignorant pride in faith. Maybe by God’s great mercy you will learn to mind your own heart rather than the hearts of supposed heathens before you stand before God (and there is silence when it will suddenly become apparent that this is the end) and have to give an account for your words and your Hell-bent ignorance.

  335. Andrew, though I may agree in some measure with the spirit of what you say, I don’t agree with you. I wrestle with the appropriateness of just throwing out a few thoughts into the cyber world, blasting my brothers in Christ while sitting in my know it all chair of no accountability, but I do like to occasionally comment in forums. It takes volumes to answer these questions. It takes deep searching before the Almighty. We must walk softly. I will say that I once thought as you do. The holy spirit led me to open up and reconsider. I also must say that I have greatly respected you over the years, but have felt that you may have overstepped your place in your judgments. We do all have the responsibility to judge righteous judgment all the while recognizing that we will be judged according to the spirit and heart of our own judgments. As I mentioned I reconsidered my views and believe that God led me in this process. Americans do have a lot of problems and the times are sifting our hearts as a nation. Many of God’s good people don’t even know the issues, let alone know the answers. This is a day of great opportunity both for good and evil. I am basically just going to post a few of Charles Finneys thoughts just to stir the soup. Keith Green, who I consider the greatest of all Jesus Freaks, was greatly influenced by him. Finney rattled his cage and moved him towards a greater understanding of revival and social issues. You are probably familiar with him. I don’t fly with everything Finney, but do believe he is one of the most provocative theologians in American history. These are just a few quotes from his introductory volume on systematic theology on the subject of “Thou shalt not kill”. Some may get offended in his use of Biblical law, but I must say that just as we are not of this world (kosmos) or (world order) neither is God’s law word. It is of heavenly origin, even though it addresses physical human questions.

    Finney … “3. Exceptions in respect to the life of man:
    (1.)Exodus 22:2. ‘If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.’
    The spirit of this exception plainly justifies taking life, strictly in self-defense. It also plainly justifies strictly defensive war. If a thief might be killed for breaking into our houses at night, or in attempting to rob, or murder, certainly the spirit of this exception justifies the repelling of foreign invasions, and the defense of our families, certainly against the ravages of thieves, pirates, marauders, bandits, and mobs.
    (2.)Genesis 9:6. ‘Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed.’
    This allows and demands taking the life of man, for the crime of murder.
    (3.)Exodus 21:12, 14. ‘He that smiteth a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death. ‘But if a man come presumptuously upon his
    neighbor, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.’ And —
    Leviticus 24:17. ‘He that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.’
    (4.) There are several species of crime, for which the Law of God not only allows the punishment of death, but absolutely makes or did make such punishment obligatory.

    (5.) Human life may be taken in offensive wars, when such wars are required by God. ‘taking human life cannot be wrong in itself, under all
    circumstances; for if it were, God could not authorize it. But he does authorize and command it. Cases in which it may be taken, are expressly or impliedly specified in various parts of the Bible. With these exceptions, and only with these, human life can in no instance be
    lawfully destroyed.

    One last quote from same chapter ” 2. Nor is the spirit of this law different under the gospel, from what it was
    at first.”

    My thought, responding to one of the posts, the ministry of a John the Baptist (Elijah) type in our land will cry out against Obama, a usurper, or Bush a two faced hypocrite or any other leader whose policies destroy the innocent. The difference between the root of the American law system is that the “Law is King”, not the “King is Law”. Obama is trying to make himself King.

    Take Care Andrew…beautiful family….I have ten children myself

    Steve Ward
    teaching-elder in Christian Covenant Church
    Etowah, TN

  336. If this nation is under judgment then no manner of seeking to restore the constitution will succeed. Ask yourself why the Apostles didn’t fight to save Jerusalem from the Romans? (It was established not by constitution but by the very Word of God.) It’s because they knew the city was under the judgment of God. They obeyed Christ’s Word to flee when they saw the Romans approaching. And they all did. Josephus tells us that not one Christian was lost in the Roman siege in 70 AD.

    If America is under judgment then I believe the end has come. That is the issue for me. Once a Christian comes under the conviction that this nation has gone too far and crossed a line and that the ‘handwriting is on the wall’, then they will cease to restore it. Once his nation permitted homosexual marriage it crossed a line. God is now removing His restraint and protection and He is allowing evil to have its ‘little hour’. (Remember Jesus did the same. He told those coming to arrest Him: “This is your hour and the power of darkness.” I believe what happened to the HEAD will happen to the BODY.)

    I believe the downfall of America is here. Just one suitcase nuke. Just one biological wmd release. Just a collapse of the dollar should do it. God is now at the beginning of shaking all that can be shaken, Hebrews 12:22ff. Christians should now be “assembling themselves together and even the more so as they see the Day approaching.”

    Yes I own guns. I’m a Viet Nam Vet, but first and foremost my citizenship is in Heaven. I believe we are about to witness the collapse of the financial system and a totalitarian system arise. Soon, there will be no time to argue and debate gun laws. Martial law will trump the second amendment.

    Darkness is coming and deep darkness the peoples. The wise are making sure they have extra oil. It was in the press of the oil, Gethsemane, where Jesus got the oil to take Him through His midnight hour. The body of Christ is about to have its Gethsemane in order to have the strength, peace and grace to have a martyr’s witness. It’s one of the reasons I call into the prayerline on Friday nights. It is there, in fervent intercession where we obtain the oil we will need for these evil days and the tribulation that lies ahead for America. The wise ones are making sure they have the oil necessary so they can rejoice when they hear the cry, “Behold the Bridgroom is coming.” Maranatha

  337. R. & M. Kauffman Jan 21st 2013

    As I read over these comments I concluded that many Christians are at a different stage of groweth in their Christian lives. I, at one time didn’t either understand the concept of state and church seperation. I was confused as where is the line, etc. until I made a study of “The Sermon On The Mount”. That supercedes and nullifies the covenent in the Old Testament FOR THE CHRISTIAN. We are under the new covenent where we love our enemys, etc. Love is so much more powerful then a gun, yes, even in self defense! So what if he kills me? I go straight to Heaven! I kill him, he goes straight to hell without ever a chance to repent! We as Christians that have our citizenship in Heaven have a different calling in life then those who have their citizenship in this world. Our calling is to work with peoples hearts and get them changed from the inside out. (Unlike the worlds methods!)
    Thank you Andrew, for this article! All we could say was, “Amen and again amen!! We forwarded the article to all 9 of our married children and told them to be sure and read it. A VERY timely article!!

  338. Sheeja John Jan 21st 2013

    Marilyn Crow, Thank you for the input. All along in this post I have tried to put forth just one thing: Christians are not expected to just stand and take everything that comes their way. God expects us to do our very best and be prepared. Yeshua avoided the Jews and moved out from their presence when they wanted to kill Him before the appointed time.
    We are called to finish our race; to complete our God given assignment. Most people are on the extremes. We need to be well balanced. That’s why I quoted Ecclesiastes 7:16 earlier in the blog.

    Let each man be fully convinced about the will of God for their own life.

  339. Real man – Let us restrict assault weapons and large ammo clips

    Straw man – Obama is trying to take away all of our guns.

    Hatred has an energy all its own, and it hides within all kinds of issues. As our Redeemer was dying for the sinner named Barak Obama, I am convinced He was not calling him names simultaneously. No one can intercede and accuse at the same time. As followers of jesus are we more concerned with President Obama’s soul or his misguided policies?
    He has received more death threats than all the other presidents put together, and where is the church in all this? It has been involved with verbal violence and rhetoric that is void of the spirit of redemption. No guns will protect you from those demons.

  340. Meagan Jan 21st 2013

    Boy, I need to stay away from the t.v. and radio shows of people fighting over gun-restrictions laws. It’s not wroth it. All I need to do is follow the Lord. Andrew your article is great. Christians and patriotism don’t mix.

  341. jerry b baker Jan 21st 2013

    I have been a watchman on the wall of America for a very long time and the Lord has shown me about this coming conflict since the middle 1980′s. I differ with several of your readers who say not to resist this government because the U.S. governments with it’s asperations to be a part of the global government is going to be exactly like Germany who murdered millions who were unarmed before they took over and this war will not be a civil war but another Revolutionary War like our Godly forefather’s fought to be able to have freedom of religion. I wrote down a prophetic letter to the American Church in 1992 which is about this very time because Jesus told me to write it for a record against false prophesies being sent out about our President at the time! I was really down on America for her sins but I’ve seen the rest of the world since then and I realized a Godly America has been God’s Evangelist since it’s birth and restoration is God’s desire. I can’t put it all on this post but I will put a prophesy which is in the letter here:
    I HEAR A TURBULENT WIND BLOWING

    “The spirit of the Lord is breathing into the dry bones once again. He that hath an ear let him hear what the wind is saying. Get out of the world, separate yourself, be holy, be chaste, and be ready, For I am calling to my chosen to keep a watch, be ready, be willing to follow my every word without doubting. Be ready to move at a moment’s notice. Be ever so sensitive to my voice.”

    “LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!”
    “For only your spirit .can hear what I am saying.
    Your soul must be in subjection to your spirit or
    You will miss my call and you will not want
    to miss my call”, says the Lord of Hosts, “for there
    will come tribulation which the world has never seen.”

    “LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!”
    “You don’t have to be subject to the coming woes,
    if you will hear my instruction. You must not be
    Complacent, you must pay the price to
    lose your life / soul (psuche)
    So that your spirit can hear and follow my voice.”

    “LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN!”
    “Do you hear me?
    I am speaking now! My prophets have said they
    Haven’t heard me of late and rightly so for even my
    prophets have to learn this new code of mine. I will not
    speak as I have before in an open vision for all to interpret outwardly, but I’ll speak to this ‘one new man’, which is my chosen ones. Yes, those who now in this time make the choice to hear me. When you have learned the code (see II Peter 1:12, present truth) you’ll be instructed in the way I want you to walk, then you’ll walk above the natural realm.

  342. War to have religious freedom? The ultimate paradox. We all have religious freedom. It’s just a question of how much you are willing to sacrifice like Daniel.
    Godly America? Unbridled blindness.

  343. Prophetess Ashanti Jan 21st 2013

    I had a Open Vision in 1999 of a civil war in America, [see below]…

    Praise the Lord, Saints of the Most High God! I had a open dream/vision on May 30th, 1999, which has been shared in many areas of ministries online since I first received it.

    Now, I would like to share with you-all. I feel it is a revelation for the Body of Christ. Saints, prepare:

    I was on a journey and I stopped at an old fashioned gas station, which had a little store and a house behind the pumps. I was meeting a lady there, and we decided to get something to eat at the store. The lady said she wanted to go into the house. There was a little, narrow, porch leading to the front door of the house, and I decided to sit there and finish my snack while she went inside.

    I sat there looking out into the street, at some point I looked away and when I looked back out, the whole scene had changed.

    I realized the dream had gone into an open vision because every thing was so sharp, so vivid…

    Instead of gas pumps and a street, there was a huge field of tall wheat for as far as I could see. I heard what I thought was a storm, but when I looked to my left, I saw a huge “wave” of sand rolling through the field heading my way. Fear gripped me, but the wave went by and didn’t effect where I was sitting.

    Then there was a huge earthquake, which re-aligned the structure of the ground. I saw “plates”, or sheets of rock shift and rise several feet above the doorway of the porch area. When everything cleared, it seemed peaceful. Then I saw a beautiful clear blue sky, and I saw a small plane fall into the grass. I thought it was a toy until I looked up in the sky again.

    Now the sky was full of airplanes of various sizes, ail flying in different directions, very confused. Some seem to try not to hit others, but still they crashed into each other and fell to the ground in flames. I started to run into the house to get someone to come see, but felt in my spirit to continue watching.

    Suddenly, the world spread out before me like a huge life-size globe. I could see continents, oceans, mountains, everything and it all was in clear, vivid colors. Then I saw two armies marching toward each other from opposite sides of the globe. Although planes were flying in the sky, the armies were dressed in uniforms from the Civil War. The army to the left was in gray (confederates), and the army to the right was in blue (union).

    One of the leaders saw me watching and stopped to get a closer look at me (seemed I was in the sky). He then called several other soldiers over to shoot at me. Their weapons looked “cartoonish” to me, like stick figure guns, but the soldiers assembled as ordered, aiming their guns at me. The leader yelled, “FIRE”, then I woke up…

    The Interpretation:

    The Bible says. . .the field is the world. . and the good seed (wheat) represents the sons of the Kingdom…(Matt.13: 38). The sand represents carnality, or “flesh”.

    The wheat was very tall which represents maturity. What I saw was a move of carnality or “flesh” throughout the “church system”, [the great falling away…II Thess. 2:3], even the mature saints, so much so, until it frightened me. I believe that is where we were up starting at the end of 1999, especially here in this early part of the year 2000, and it is increasing.

    Then the earthquake, the Lord said. Net once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven. Now this, ‘Yet once more” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken. . that those things, which cannot be shaken, may remain. . (Hebrews 12:26-27).

    The Lord is ready to shake everything, especially His Body, and the result of that shaking will be a re-aligning of structure. People, (rock…Matt.16: 18), who have the true revelation of Jesus Christ, which have been hidden, (underground-I Kings 6:7), will come forth after this shaking, and the Lord will elevate them. Also, this will begin the true Prophetic Age.

    Then there will be peace for a season, but the Lord is not finished, for a part of the Lord’s army will come from these, the remnant of the Lord.

    The airplanes… whenever I see vehicles of any kind in my dreams/visions, they represent the means of getting to one’s destiny or purpose. These airplanes represent “vehicles” or ministries that were intended to take us higher, but they were flying in confusion. Now airplanes get their instructions from a “control tower” which “sees” better than they do. These planes were either not obeying their instructions, or faulty in some way where they were not receiving their instructions, but at any rate, they were confused, crashing, and falling, and the small ones were the first to fall.

    [The Lord has since given me another revelation regarding these airplanes, [or jets], which I saw. He said that they also represent these ministries which have bought jets telling their congregation that they were to help them “spread the gospel” however this was never so.

    These leaders know that there was a “plan” in the works to annihilate the people of God at a certain time so they bought these jets so they could leave the country when the signs of “war” start to happen, however they did not factor in the Lord.

    They thought they could prostitute the people of God, “rape” them for all the money they can get and then leave them destitute to die while they fly away to safety however the Lord spoke a word against them….[as Mordecai did to Esther]…thus saith the Lord…“if they remain completely silent deliverance will come but they and their family members will perish”].

    Now the armies, which I saw… I believe a civil war will come within the Body of Christ. This is not uncommon because when any disease-producing element infiltrates the system of our natural body, antibodies, are produced to neutralize, destroy, or otherwise counteract the disease. (Also, note they are called “anti-bodies”, and one would think they were against the body when actually they are there to help the body).

    The Body of Christ has been infiltrated with the doctrines of men, which have produced spiritual slavery. The Lord will initiate a civil war to set His people free, (Matt. 10:34-39).

    The blue army was to the right, and the right side represents the authority of God. Those fighting in this army will have the authority of God on their side. A part of this army came out of the shaking, and is those who are standing on the Word of God and not the doctrines of men. (John 5:39/Actsl7: 11/II Tim.2: 15).

    The gray army is those who are fighting to maintain their present lifestyle on the spiritual slavery of the people of God. One of the leaders “saw” me, and stopped fighting to assemble those to shoot at me. Some will rise up against the “Prophets of God’” because we are the ones who “see” when things are out of order in the Body of Christ, and bring correction, discipline, and order back among the people. Their weapons looked “cartoonish” to me because the Bible says… no weapon formed against us shall prosper…Isaiah 54: 17.

    Which side will you be on, Saints? Your knowledge of the Word of God will determine that, are you following the truth of God’s word, or the doctrines of men? (Matt. 15:7-14/Mark 7:6-9).

  344. Andrew Jan 21st 2013

    Sadly I have to agree with Rick concerning Obama-

    “He has received more death threats than all the other presidents put together, and where is the church in all this? It has been involved with verbal violence and rhetoric that is void of the spirit of redemption. No guns will protect you from those demons.”

    Very sad indeed.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.