DENYING THIS KEY TRUTH – The One Huge Lie

ANDREW’S NOTE: I so agree with the major point made by John Anderson below. Would appreciate your comments, my friends.

DENYING THIS KEY TRUTH – The One Huge Lie
by John Anderson

Lee Grady’s article is tremendous. However, the four flaws he
mentions are not the beginning of the problem; they are rooted in
a flawed message which is in turn rooted in a flawed, distorted
view of the holy God.

Distortion of God’s character was the essence of the temptations
in the Garden of Eden, as with deadly subtlety the enemy of God
lured Eve toward sin by stripping God first of His Integrity — by
casting doubt on His truthfulness: “Has God said that you should
not eat…”; and then stripping Him of His Justice — by denying the
truth that God would judge: “You shall not surely die…”

Beginning with God’s warning to Adam and Eve that if they ate of
the forbidden fruit they would die, the stern but vital truth in Scripture
is that the God of Justice says every evildoer is under His wrath
(John 3:36); and unless he or she repents and receives forgiveness
and cleansing made possible through His Son’s shed blood on the
Cross, they face eternal damnation in hell.

Today’s visible church has made an art form of dodging the
inconvenient Scriptural truth that God clearly says the wicked are
under His wrath, preferring to market God in more appealing ways
by ignoring or downplaying His judgment. So we’ve happily replaced
the true gospel with all kinds of seeker friendly pseudo-gospels
focused on prosperity, success, self-image, motivation and how
to have a good sex life. All this revealing of course that today’s
visible church, like Eve, has been seduced to buy into Satan’s
distortion of God’s character.

The point here is that the consequence of the distorted view of
God and His message so popularized today is that it produces
a professed, likely self-deceived preacher whose ministry is not
marked by brokenness, humility, and servanthood; but is marked
by the frauds of ministry Lee Grady cited: charlatanism, entitlement,
arrogance (this should head the list), and professionalism.

The true minister of God is marked by brokenness before the Lord,
humility and a servant’s heart whose desire is to please the Lord
and proclaim His Word. Such ministers do not play to celebrity,
nor need strobe lights, fog machines, armor-bearers, special
treatment, rock bands and other evidences of today’s god who
doesn’t judge.

Thank you Lee Grady. As you said: “Let’s become leaders who
act like Jesus.”

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 17th, 2013 at 9:03 am.

150 comments

150 Replies

  1. DrMike Story Oct 17th 2013

    Shalom ! Here in Finland we have two words that look very similar. MENESTYS = prosperity whilst MENETYS = loss. SO this works beautifully … we contrast mene$tys theology with menetys theology ” deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me ” …A bit like the idea of Pro$perity theology ! God bless! Mike

  2. I agree as well. We no longer see the gospel being preached in our churches. God says one thing, the church changes it to mean something else.

    People today are using the scriptures to conform God to their image.

    If you look in the NT you see in a number of places, seeing they see, but cannot see, and hearing they hear but cannot hear.

    GaryB

  3. Kathy Tankersley Oct 17th 2013

    It was 8 years ago that God showed me that: For 30 years in the charismatic church, I was not worshiping the God of the bible nor the Jesus of the Bible. As my husband and I started reading the bible for ourselves, God began to show us the God of the bible and the Messiah of the bible. We started throwing out, one at a time, the error we had been taught for so many years and replacing them with what the bible says. (We learned alot about reading the scripture in context) Which as a charismatic, we were never taught that, the OT was for reference ony, I could go on and on…………Thanks for both articles………Kathy T

  4. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    Sad that the God of holiness and judgment has been completely thrown out, and only a God of mercy preached.

    Utterly unbalanced – and really a complete deception. A false ‘Jesus’.

    Very sad.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  5. stephen boyce Oct 17th 2013

    just becareful about using modern translations. they take a lot of stuff out and are corrupted compared to the king james

  6. Preacher Oct 17th 2013

    I totally agree. So many Pastors are only interested in there own well being & keeping the people happy that their position is no longer a God given calling, just a job. The result of modern “Christian” gurus who peddle a crowd pleasing non gospel without thought of the eternal results of the listeners, or perhaps they just don’t care.

    The evangelists work is made much harder as the message is rejected by men who are ruled by fear. That is part of the cost of preaching the true gospel, but we should not be dismayed or seek to soften the truth, as Jesus was rejected by the religious leaders of His day.

    We do not preach “Hell Fire” & scare people into being saved, any more than a lighthouse keeper makes sure the light is lit – to warn of danger & disaster. It’s his responsibility to save lives at all costs.
    If the man who lives nearby complains that the light keeps him awake, then he’ll have to move or buy thicker curtains.
    The lives of people are more important than another’s comfort.

    Keep up the good work Andrew. Blessings.

  7. Amen and amen.

  8. love is … truth is… judgment and mercy flow from these 2 things…. love must reflect truth and vice versa…. .
    i’ve heard about consequences and seen them too.

    i have not been taught that God brings about consequences ( judgment ) but intervenes with help ( mercy).

    sin /self will opens the door for the enemy and he brings consequences…maybe appealing and appearing to be good but fruit of which is bad…. every thing, and person gets blamed for the Bad and since sin abounds so does the victim mindset and victim voice.

    the realm of the enemy is not believed , known understood or taught…. really a spirit of depression ? “Get over it ” pound the word into your brain and let that rule….no Jesus no cross… just the application nailed to our brain without life… as there is no relationship living with the living God within a lot of believing about people…
    Leaders can only lead as far as they’ve come….
    Most haven’t gone very far….they’ve got the salvation message down some but the process of sanctification…? taking it to the CROSS….having an on-going coming to Jesus meeting ?
    Didn’t Jesus preach about what was ppromised, what was going on and what was to come….

    don’t hear that today…the good news of what happened last week to people, seeking God together for what is needed for today and tomorrow, along with a real heavy dose of transparent repentance….bypassing what people may think if of you if heartfelt “i’m sorry ” is spoken out loud and the humble cry for help to overcome…

    I need grace to interceede. i rail against what is happening and want to explode on people or run away…. Lord HELP !

  9. Both authors also omit one essential ingredient namely–one’s attitude to Scripture. Everything we believe, everything we do, everything we can experience MUST be anchored to the Word of God as contained in the Bible.

    The Charismatic/Pentecostal churches have (for the most part) cut this anchor and, as a result, are adrift on the sea. They float like feathers on the wind, being blown about by every form of doctrine that cunning men and demons throw at them.

    Others quench the Spirit for the dogmas of cessationism because they reject the words of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 14!

    But is not this what Paul prophesied would happen in the days preceding the rise of the son of perdition:–Great Apostasy?

  10. Christianity is a religious substitute for what happened in the Book of Acts and following. One has to look at the real experiences of people with the Holy Spirit in the great revivals to understand what happened in Acts. The 3000 weren’t converted by Peter’s intellectual discussion of the Lord’s death and their guilt, they were emotionally and spiritually convicted by the Holy Spirit to a degree that the Bible doesn’t fully communicate to us but which we see over and over in the great revivals. Christianity has long since stopped requiring brokenness as a sign of true repentance and just accepted as a sign of one’s faith that you merely agree with it’s major doctrines. But the great revivals were all about reversing this sin with Christians in “good standing” being overcome by the Holy Spirit’s conviction in their soul/spirit, experiencing true conviction and brokenness and repentance with changed lives lived for the Lord. Raising your hand while heads are bowed is not real conversion since there is seldom a life changing conviction by the Spirit which accompanies that raised hand. And that is more than okay in the modern church just as it was in past centuries where the Holy Spirit’s work/power/presence were not valued. Traditional Christianity has been about Bible believism but modern Churchianity isn’t even about that and seemingly proud of it. An End Time revival is going have to happen outside of the institutional church system and should drop the term, Christianity/Christian, so the world will understand that a Holy Spirit led/filled/broken people from Bible teachings are a different people than Churchianity of the 21st century.

  11. Great word! Jesus said, “He was meek and lowly in spirit”.
    This nothing we see among many peddling another gospel.
    My gospel says lose your life and you will find it. The Pharisees sought worldly esteem with their religious association to God and they killed the author of salvation. Today, a similar type of “minister” is destroying the souls of men.

  12. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    It is the religion of “nice”.

    And it is everywhere

  13. I wouldn’t have considered Jesus a broken man, not any of the apostles. I would have considered them to be strong.

    Nor do I remember any scripture where Jesus was breaking people’s spirits to bring them to repentance of sin for the remission of sins. Jesus did rebuke sinners for not repenting of their sins, but he never rebuked sinners into repenting.

    I object to this idea that a man has to live his life as a broken man to find favour with God. Loving God and people with the love of The Lord is far more important. A man does not need to be a broken man to be humble and to serve The Lord.

    Pastors being into the occult should have been on the list too. I think it is at odd with scripture to accept or tolerate anyone that is into the occult in any kind of position of authority, stewardship, leadership or ministry in the church. On the grounds that it is at odds with scripture, I refuse to take them seriously as pastors or leaders.

    Revival will be about Christs ministry of reconciliation of mans intimate relationship with God through repentance of sins for the remission of sins. We are called to fellowship with God and to love one another and God.

  14. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    “A broken and contrite heart” are key to genuine repentance

    So says the Bible

    -Andrew

  15. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    And by the way

    I believe the word “wrath” is probably the most little-used word in Christendom today

    Blessings to all

    Andrew

  16. L. Alex Smith Oct 17th 2013

    Jesus was a “broken man” in the sense that “he was despised and rejected, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief” …broken with heart-breaking sorrow for a world that was rejecting the ultimate love of God manifest to us. He had no sins nor selfish nature of which to be broken (unlike us), but instead took on our sins and “became a sin offering” for us, which broke him, so to speak. If one could speak of his breaking, and broken-ness, it would be the experience in the Garden of Gethsemane where he “sweated great drops of blood” noted by Luke the doctor– hoematidrosis is a rare but very real medical phenomenom in which during times of great stress, the blood capillaries in the forehead can actually burst.
    Peter’s broken-ness came after he denied the Lord, and Jesus restored him with the words, “Peter, do you Self-Sacrificially Love me?” And all Peter could manage was an “affectionate friendship” love for him…yet, he assured Peter that by the time he was an old man, he would have reached the point, through deep heart-felt ministry to others (“Feed my sheep”) he would be ready to “go where you do not want to go”.
    Paul’s broken-ness was manifest in both his Damascus Road experience, followed by his “thorn in the flesh”– a messenger, or angel (fallen) from satan, “lest I be lifted up, due to the abundance of revelations given to me.” You can see that at first he said, “I am not a whit behind the chiefest of apostles” and later said that he was “an apostle born out of time” and then finally, “less than the least of all saints”.
    He said, “That I might know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, if by any means I might attain to the out-resurrection from among the dead ones.”
    Through death comes forth Life.
    This needs to be preached.

  17. watchful Oct 17th 2013

    Churchianity has always been at odds with the simplicity of true Christian faith which elevates nobody but Christ…..COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE LEST YOU SHARE IN HER SINS AND RECEIVE OF HER PLAGUES !! It’s even worse that what we think – what is being preached now is a new age Jesus…..they are receiving a plague of new age spirits, demonic infestations. It is all antichrist, the apostasy is in full swing and Babylon is falling, falling. It seems this is only the first phase of the falling away, but with phase two not far behind. How I praise our faithful God for His kindness in warning and keeping us! Else who could survive it! We can never go back or look back, the only way is to keep going forward and burn those bridges behind us.

  18. Darren Sargent Oct 17th 2013

    Lee Grady’s article was just rearranging furniture: confusing the symptoms for the cause.

    I wholeheartedly agree with John Anderson here.

    L. Alex Smith: you read my mind, as I was scrolling down the page I was chuntering away to myself and you said what I thought.

    One more word on brokenness: the Beattitudes.

    love to All

  19. I agree with the insights that John Anderson makes and they are instructive.
    However, he has still not hit the root of it all. IMO
    Neither is forsaking the bible as our foundation the root
    Nor the modern bible translations.

    The core of the matter, IMO, is UNBELIEF.

    The modern church has the same kind of faith that Eve had.
    She KNEW what God said, but did not truly believe. She did not believe that God’s statements ended the matter.

    There are very few Christians which truly believe and most of modern theology (and a lot of previous theology) is based on explaining why God did not mean what He said. Modern faith is more based on our interpretations of God’s word than it is on the actual words.

    There are many verses that Christians do not believe otherwise they would be obeying. Very few heal the sick, cast out demons, believe they have been given total authority over all principalities and powers. They do not think that being seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus has much bearing on their every day realities.

    We especially do not concern ourselves with the leaven in our lives. While its all under the blood is a great truth, the greater truth is that when it is indeed under the blood, it has no more life and it is no longer expressed in our lives.

    I could go on and on with examples. But we all know them.

    Another favorite tactic that most Christians fall into is majoring on minors. We debate head coverings, and escatology, and free will, etc and neglect the foundations on which all is built.

    What we need most is FAITH. Faith is simply believing God and not expecting any qualifications to His words.

    Jesus asked the most significant question regarding the last days.
    Lu 18:8 …. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    Will He? It is our choice

  20. DonaldN Oct 17th 2013

    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    The fear of God is not taught any more. Only the “Bless Me” gospel.

    “Repeat this prayer and you will be saved and nothing can ever snatch you from God’s hand.”

    “You are a child of God and you have all the rights as a ‘Kings Kid'”

    I find it difficult to sit among a congregation these days and continue to hear these things.

    We need to Fear God.

    Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

  21. DonaldN Oct 17th 2013

    “Distortion of God’s character was the essence of the temptations
    in the Garden of Eden, as with deadly subtlety the enemy of God
    lured Eve toward sin by stripping God first of His Integrity — by
    casting doubt on His truthfulness: “Has God said that you should
    not eat…”; and then stripping Him of His Justice — by denying the
    truth that God would judge: “You shall not surely die…”

    Satan still uses the same lies with the church as he did in the garden with Adam’s wife.

  22. The Christians that Grady and Anderson are talking about are mainly Word of Faith (aka. Prosperity Gospel, or Health and Wealth). But other churches are increasing influenced by their doctrines.

    I’ve researched ‘Word of Faith’ beliefs in depth, and Anderson is on the right track about what is behind their distortion of Christianity.

    The two core foundational beliefs that result in this distortion:

    1. They believe God is ONLY a God of love.

    They do not believe in a God of wrath, and explain all those passages away, using pretzel theology. Suffering is NEVER God’s will. God ONLY wants you healthy, wealthy, prosperous, successful.

    2. They do NOT believe in the Sovereignty of God.

    Now that God’s will for you is known (health, wealth etc). They believe in the sovereignty of the believer, and that you determine your own destiny (health, wealth) by prayer, claiming, belief.

    The above two distortions are the roots of the problems.

    Simon

  23. Jerry Olson Oct 17th 2013

    Brother John you made the moment in your article, “eternal damnation in hell”, please revisit the scripture, your context is not in line with God’s word. Further, preachers and ministers of God need to teach obedience and repentance, these are the KEY issues. It is not complicated, until God’s people begin to do as God teaches in His word, we will continue to not be blessed and have the joy and peace that our Father wants for us. God stated to me on Aug. 5th, the purest form of worship is obedience. We must repent and then obey, period!!!

  24. I love the term Watchful wrote…churchianity. That is an accurate description of what goes on today in the so called houses of God; no Christ in that mess. John Anderson nailed it. The foundational messages of repentance, humility and Kingdom service are woefully diluted or rearranged. The most important message of judgment has practically been eliminated but it’s up to the remnant to keep it going…and yes, this is what was said would happen in these later years. Nonetheless, our All-Knowing Father has a ram in the bush…His remnant crew consisting of those who will go through the strait gate and walk the narrow way.

  25. I agree. You would all be encouraged by the teaching ministry of Martha Kilpatrick of Shulamite ministries. It is rare to find Biblical teaching that is surrendered to the Lordship of Christ.

    http://shulamite.com/

    http://www.getalongwithgod.com/

    Or suscribe to Shulamite app on itunes.

  26. I agree with your insights. So much preaching today is geared to what itching ears want to hear. God loves you, wants to bless you, you are above reproach, etc. etc. God des love us, and desires that which is best for us, but there is a condition in order to receive. Repent, seek the Lord with your whole being, and confess Him before others. We don’t hear much of this any more. It is interesting that Eve was deceived, but Adam made the choice to do that which God forbid.
    Keep up the good work brother.

  27. Louise Oct 17th 2013

    Great article. Add to it the distortion of believing church is a place we go once a week to worship God. Our worship is everyday every hour of living unto the Lord where ever we happen to be and with whom ever. Today’s churches separate the spiritual from the secular and God never inteded that. He did not build a church in the Garden of Eden. Churches are a one-man show keeping ordinary believers from contributing what God gives them. Leaders today steal from the Body and and make them disciples of their ways, not disciples of Jesus Chris who set us free. He does not put us in bondage to religion!

  28. With true gospel we are provoked to repentance because we see ourselves as God sees us not how we look to ourselves. If the preacher is a disciple of Jesus then disciples will be made not just empty “christians”. To be a Christian is free is a lie that enslaves many. One cannot become a Christian without first being a disciple of Jesus and He said that it costs us to follow Him. The cost is not preached and is the cause of the false “Christianity” that plagues the church today, at least in America.

    The gift is freely given but to walk in it is costly.

  29. I totally agree! I cannot help wondering after 38yrs. in the church system that exalts one “leader”..Pastor….if we had honestly believed the scriptures were the inspired word of God and had adhered to the PATTERN THAT PAUL ESTABLISHED in 1 Cor 14 for gathering….in which he states is a COMMAND OF THE LORD….if we would have had the SPIRIT of TRUTH….the HOLY SPIRIT….in our midst as we gathered as the ecclesia….that would have KEPT us from going into “ditch after ditch” of false doctrine the idolotry that comes from ONE MAN ministry. The reason Paul wept for 3 years was he saw that the wolves in sheeps clothing would invade the church and devour as we have seen. We have lost the TRUTH in the American church and have exchanged it for a LIE….and the sad thing is that God has allowed us to be turned over to believe the lies because we have not truly LOVED the TRUTH. If we want to see a true restoration then we will have to RETURN to the LORD in every realm of HIS WORD….for HE HATH TORN and HE WILL HEAL(Hosea 6)….we have made a Jesus in our own IMAGE….and a GOSPEL that is totally of the FLESH….and IDOLS out of men who have uncrucifed lives who do not live the life of true disciples and COVET the headship that only belongs to CHRIST over HIS CHURCH not their churches….as Hosea so clearly said….like people like Priests….in other words…we have been given what the hearts desire….PILLOW PROPHETS, false teachers, and a Heirachy that has separated the PREISTHOOD of the believer from Christ as the Roman Catholics have done. Could it be if we knew the SCRIPTURES and the POWER of GOD…we would have not accepted the mess that we have that is so far from “denying ourselves, taking up our cross and following CHRIST…..DEATH WORKING IN US THAT LIFE CAN WORK IN YOU! My brothers and sisters….it is the last days….this is the apostacy that Christ warned of and that Paul wept for….we are seeing the stage set for the church of antichrist that is quickly arising and we should not be surprised…we should be AWAKE and CRYING out to warn the babes in Christ who are taking the WIDE road presented in the western churches….and the gosple that goes with it. May the VOICES of TRUTH be raised UP IN THE STREETS as Isaiah said. The sword of the word is the ONLY antidote to the LIES that are being spewed out of the dragons mouth against the woman ( the church) Revelation 12. THE SPIRIT AND THE WORD….not opinions….but the resurrection of TRUTH being raised up in the streets! May we embrace the gosple that includes SUFFERING for if we suffer with HIM ( HIS WORDS) we shall REIGN together with HIM.
    Speaking truth with our neighbors will ( in the western church) COST US….because there is a hatred for the suffering, humble, walk of a true disciple….selling all?????? Satan and his minions laugh as we PLAY church!
    Blessings to all who love the TRUTH for JESUS is the TRUTH. May we glorify HIM the only true CHRIST to whom we shall all stand before at the judgement seat of CHRIST and give an account for the deeds done in the body. May we count our lives as loss….may we truly die to our lives so that HE can live through us. Even so….Come Lord Jesus!

  30. Inspired Oct 17th 2013

    Let’s become leaders who act like Yeshua???
    The Yeshua who told Judas to go about doing what it is you have been given to do? He did not try to convert him, but let Judas be free to be who he was.
    The Yeshua who said forgive them Father, they know not what they do.
    Part of leaving the Fathers house is the pigpen. Why would I want to rob someone of their blessing of the pigpen? Did it not bring him to a reality of learning from the consequences of the influences followed?

  31. Certainly a frightening thing to think that we are so easily and willingly decieved! I was a memeber of a charasmatic church for many years-I saw the beginning of the decline in following the Lord. Not that its only charasmatic churches that are being decieved-they just seem to be in the forefront. The more emotional and flashy, the more “Godly” you are.

  32. Thank you Lee, John and Andrew, for the TRUTH of scripture you present. I encourage you men of God to speak out and present it. Praise God it is His Truth that sets us free, freedom to worship in the Spirit, in the knowledge that this freedom was bought at such tremendous cost. God is not willing to offer such freedom and salvation to those who devalue it by changing the ‘offer’ to a form of words which suit their objectives rather than God’s Divine purpose; to have a people He can call His own!

  33. Lee’s article was able to pinpoint key issues that are apparent in the fallen nature of man. How that fallen nature showed up in our preachers has to do with a limited understanding of the gospel.
    Romans 8:13 explains the problem and the solution.

    For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

    Jesus brought transformation to our lives at the Cross and that Cross is still powerful in its ability to make us holy.

    “The Shadow of the Spiritual” offers more insights on the subject. Free PDF at shadow-free (.com)

  34. Yes, people have made unto themselves their own god, the way they wanted their god to be instead of the God of Abraham. But this is not new…it began even at the time of Jesus…and promoted heavily in the early second century by the doctrine of Marcion. Who is Marcion? Ah…you have a computer…look it up.

  35. Lots of responses here. I’ll just say, absolutely agree with the article and hope there’s a turn around coming.

  36. marian Oct 17th 2013

    Couldn’t agree more. My husband and I went to a church for 22 years and to begin with the Pastor was really good, giving some very moving sermons. However, as time went by there were no sermons on the wrath of God only on the love of God. We were always encouraged to ‘come to the evening service where God wants to bless His people’. Eventually, we sensed that the Pastor was mainly interested in those in the congregation who were ‘well off’. No talk ever on Israel as we were a ‘Replacement Theology’ church. When no change was forthcoming we felt there was nothing there for us and left.

  37. Faan Oosthuizen Oct 17th 2013

    I wrote a letter to our local newspaper which was published Mon 14 Oct. Then I read John Anderson’s letter and we are in agreement. Here is my letter and take on the matter.

    THE THREE BIGGEST LIES ON EARTH

    Pro 28:23 He who rebukes a man shall afterwards find more favor than he who flatters with the tongue.
    The following are the three biggest lies on earth and the cause of all that went wrong with mankind.
    The first is Satan’s lie that said we will surely not die if we eat of the forbidden tree – whilst God clearly said that man shall surely die dying if they eat of it. All who sin and who excuse or overlook or do not confess sins with remorse, or who do not repent from it and who do not seek complete deliverance from it but think they will still go to heaven despite sinning, believe this lie.
    The second lie is that Satan cannot be destroyed or overcome in our lives – despite God clearly saying that Someone will come out of the women who will destroy the head of the serpent. This lie teaches we all will keep on eating of the forbidden fruit and sin for all our lives and that we cannot live holy lives despite God commanding it. The truth is that Jesus was specifically sent to save us, to set us truly free and to cleanse us from all our sins and to destroy the works of the devil and to make us holy by His blood.
    The third lie teaches that Jesus paid our debt, carried our punishment and died in our place. It says we only need to accept and believe it and we are forgiven by grace and we will not die – even if we continue with sins. This lie causes the first two lies to be easily accepted and believed and discourages earnest searching for complete deliverance from sin.
    All the sin, enmity, pain, struggling, sorrow, desires, oppression, thorns and thistles and corruption in mankind result from believing these lies.
    The truth is that our sins deeply grieve God’s heart, it grieves and quenches His Spirit and it pierced, crushed and murdered Jesus on the cross. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross. Our sins murdered Him! If we confess this with true remorse, repent from it and believe God’s words, then God promises forgiveness, deliverance and cleansing from all sins, filling with His Holy Spirit and holiness so that we may stop eating of the forbidden tree – or else we will surely die dying. Without holiness we will not see God.
    Faan Oosthuizen. [email protected]

  38. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    What is being preached these days is really “Humanism”

    The TV preaches it, Oprah preaches it, the church preaches it.

    Tolerance and “niceness”

    No piercing truth. And therefore no true ‘Love’.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  39. chas351 Oct 17th 2013
  40. Amen to all the great replies thus far -we are all on the same page re the great article by Grady. Andrew -you were always promoting this -such as your article’ The Church of Tomorrow’ and many more. Many of us 30 years ago were lone voices in the wilderness re our concerns about the visible church, and many others just did not voice their concerns. But the sacred church cow continued to be worshipped by the majority and as one person said on this site -“the apostasy is well on its way”.

    In my prayer times I sense a threefold movement ahead where I live.:
    (1)There will be people with Cyrus type ministries who will keep pounding on the doors of the sleeping and man controlled church to release its people there from their Babylonian church captivity. Cyrus was neither a Jew nor Christian but God used him to rescue the Israelites from their Babylon captivity. He was a marketplace man and God may well use the market and economics to shut man made church doors –literally.

    (2)Those who are inactive for God outside the sleeping church, God is going to fire up, to use and more will go out on the streets and worldwide, working as teams. This small army of people will finally agree to actually come together in homes, in the marketplace, in cafes or wherever people are able to meet regularly. They will agree to lay down their idols of work and hobbies, making prayer the main thing in their lives. God will awaken the gifts and callings in people that have been either under-utilised or not used at all. This Body of Christ (his ultimate Bride) in this context have never been encouraged to use what God has put in them, they have been left loveless, needs not addressed, wounds not patched up and thus it remains a limping army –like Napoleon’s defeated army en route back from a wintry Russia. But the darker times ahead require the mobilisation of an army operating in God’s supernatural power not via manmade and religious organisational techniques and programs.

    (3)In order for this army of God to come forth, mind sets about what ‘doing church’ is all about have to be broken. The Word has to be taught in its entirety and a full understanding of what the Book of Acts Church actually looked like, which is so different from the false model we see today across all denominations. I would say coupled with this, a teaching of Bible prophecy especially re Israel and the Jewish people’s central place in it, to counter the endless replacement theology that abounds in Pentecostal churches and church ignorance about Israel future.
    Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Israel is our world time clock -and it is ticking fast!

    I urge folk to seek like minded souls to meet together, encourage each other, fervently pray and then go out to the harvest.

  41. Daniel Oct 17th 2013

    Hey Andrew could you delete the first one above and leave the second one below? I noticed some errors and wish to repost a corrected one.

  42. Daniel Oct 17th 2013

    I believe we are all hitting the symptoms and the cause is still being left untouched. We have left our first love. The Lord Jesus confronted Ephesus first in Revelation because. He wanted to hit on the root of everything wrong that came later. The Amplified puts it quite strongly in Revelation 2:4,

    I have this [one charge to make] against you: that you have left (abandoned) the love that you had at first [you have deserted Me, your first love].

    It would have been quite an indictment for Christ to have said, “You have left me”, but He went further by His choice of words, He explains what the Ephesians had done and how they had done it. They had left their first love. This is the language of a bridegroom with His bride, and the heartbreak of it is tangible. In the past the Lord had spoken through His prophets to Israel, “You have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and dug for yourselves broken cistern that can hold no water.” And if we could summarize every message that the prophets spoke to Israel it was, “Return to the Lord, not in pretense, but in genuine love”. Today we have forgotten the greatest command, to love the Lord our God with everything within and without. And so the solution that Jesus gives His loveless bride is,

    Remember from where you have fallen, repent, and do the deeds you did at first.

    We miss the first part to our own detriment. The Scriptures say that godly sorrow leads us to repentance. Many times we see this as trying to make one feel sorry for their sins, but in context Paul is speaking to the Corinthian ekklesia. Jesus is in effect saying to the bride, “Remember what you once had, remember the tenderness of your youth, before you left me, before your love grew cold”. If we can do this, then we will weep for the place where we once were, for the love that once defined the church, love for Jesus Christ. We must first remember! Out of this will come godly sorrow, and only this will lead us to repentance. It is key to recognize that the Ephesians were not committing any grave outward sin, their works actually quite surpassed ours, they were ardent defenders of the truth, and they were enduring patiently. It was not the outward part of the cup that needed cleansing, it was the inner. Repentance then is not to simply turn from our sins (as is so popularly assumed), it is an inner change, because God is after the heart. From this inner change will flow the works we did at first. The works are to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. The reason we do those things is answered by Jesus’ question, “If anyone desires to come after Me”. Our desire must first be to come after Him, we must have a fiery love for Him that nothing else rivals, and then we will do the first works.

    This is the root of all the church’s problems and the only solution is as Christ said to “remember from where we have fallen”, to feel God’s grief and sorrow over our idolatry and wicked hearts of unbelief. Then repentance will flow within our minds and hearts, and we will go back to the beginning. The promise to Ephesus and us today is, “To the one who overcomes, I will grant for them to eat of the tree of life that is in the Paradise of God”. As we know, this tree is the life of God Himself, the holiness and love of His Spirit, and by partaking of it we are restored to deep fellowship and knowledge of God and His Christ. Amen.

  43. Refreshing. Spoke on these very matters Sunday morning. Satans foil is to blunt the word. If he can get men to preach a gospel without the anger of god and the wrath of God and speak only of His love he has little else to do. The good news means nothing unless we understand the bad news, unless we are fully convinced by the Spirit that our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked. We need a new heart.

  44. Daniel Oct 17th 2013

    Do not misunderstand me, many here have raised wonderful points and truths that we need to come back to if we are to be a fully restored bride. I loved and agree with Lee Grady’s article and John Anderson’s as well. I am simply saying that the root problem is leaving our first love, and the corrective steps are remembering from where we have fallen, repenting (changing internally), and letting our first works flow from this sorrow, change, and love for Christ.

  45. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    This article is really talking about the gospel that is preached today, Daniel.

    As Steve Williams said above, “The good news means nothing unless we understand the bad news.”

    So very true.

    “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  46. My husband and I have been talking a lot about this topic over the last week. I met someone in the swimming pool (I swim for my arthritis) who couldn’t stop talking about the Holy Spirit, her healings and all the miracles she has seen.
    I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit but there was an oddity. I did not feel the oneness I have felt when I am with the brethren and Jesus is in our midst. There was something preventing it.
    I told my husband about it and we prayed for clarity. All week I’ve been talking to God and trying to listen. I was still disturbed and did not want to find myself standing against the Holy Spirit if I was wrong.
    God used your message to confirm what I sensed. As I read I felt my unsureness leave. You wrote so clearly and addressed each point so well. I just wanted to say thank you!

  47. Daniel Oct 17th 2013

    Amen Andrew. I guess my main point was about the restoration of the body, since Lee Grady originally wrote his speaking about the excesses of the Charismatic movement. I believe for Christ the state of His disciples was just as important as the message they preached. The gospel that was preached on Pentecost that made people cry out, “What must we do?” came from a man who had his loved tested by Jesus, ‘lovest thou me more than these?’ I agree the gospel must be preached in its fullness, in love and holiness. But the vessels must first be purified if God will use them for His purposes.People are saved by truly repenting, but dare we bring them into a body that is cold as ice towards their Lord? Once we get right, then the light of the world will shine out brightly, and the Lord will add daily those who being saved.

    I agree with you Andrew, the whole counsel of God must be proclaimed, wrath and judgment are not to be bypassed, and if you knew me personally you would know that I do not hesitate to speak about them. Continue preaching Andrew, and God bless you.

  48. Andrew Oct 17th 2013

    Yes – I agree – the Body must be purified, my friend.

    The preaching of the True Gospel must play a big part.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  49. I would like to also know what article of Lee Grady’s this article was referencing.

    I believe that the Lord is opening the eyes of His body to see His heart and to discern the deception. After the discernment comes the work because then we need to be cleansed and healed from the defilement. I grieve at the state of the Church for which I am a part. Thank you for your articles, I look forward to them.

    Blessings,
    Joyce

  50. Do exactly the word. Jesus said, “Seek ye FIRST the KINGDOM of GOD and HIS Righteousness” Any other word or way is deception of the evil one. bro. hugh

  51. Do exactly to the letter what Jesus said,” Seek ye first the kindgom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you” A child can understand. bro. hugh

  52. I am very thankful for the message above from Daniel. It lays the axe to the ROOT. We would have no charasmatic circus to repent of if we had not fallen from first love for JESUS. For the first works that HE said return to are just what CHRIST said were these….”DENY YOURSELF,TAKE UP YOUR CROSS, AND FOLLOW ME.” The love of many is waxing cold….Jesus warned it would be the danger of the last days. Let’s go back to our first love….and then our messages and articles can be about the glorious life of CHRIST and the soon coming of the KING of KINGS and Lord of Lords! Then we will not have to repent for all the “clouds without water in our love feasts”. We can concentrate upon preparing the BRIDE for HIS COMING! I understand Lee’s frustrations….I have seen it all too…and have been sickened in heart for the abominations that are committed in HIS name…however, there will be a remnant that will remain faithful to Christ. May they be strengthened to stand fast in the liberty of CHRIST and the pure love for Jesus…..even unto death! May we be those who truly have counted our lives as loss to gain CHRIST!

  53. PS…..Thank you Andrew for posting the wonderful discussions and the heart provoking subjects. I believe that they are a wonderful outlet for many of us who are truly seeking to love and walk in the truth as you are. We have no voice in the American Church structure and you have blessed us with a venue to express our hearts. Blessings in Christ to you dear brother . Also, thank you for your willingness to expose so much of the demonic counterfeits that have invaded the “church” and have shipwrecked so many. May the Lord strengthen your heart to continue in the narrow way with the Truth of GOD’s word.

  54. Averyl Oct 18th 2013

    Great topic!
    I would appreciate your thoughts on Gene Edwards’ book “The Organic Church” on http://www.geneedwards.og/

  55. Excellent articles…

  56. Good article Andrew! Hits the nail on head. This has been happening for so many years now, that from pulpit to pew there is a tangible absence of the knowledge of God as He is. If God is not known as He is, then how on earth can we preach Him as He is!? Hence we have now many user friendly messages pandering to a self-willed people who have not truly had an encounter with the One True and Living God. To have an encounter with Him as an unredeemed man is an awesome thing! In that meeting of sinner with One Oh So Holy undoes him in a moment of time. He is to fall to the ground within as the consequences of un-confessed sin and unbelief in Jesus grip him…eternal damnation or eternal life. If he is ever to rise again it will be by the grace of God alone. If God does not raise him he is done! His lips tremble, his voice cracks, tears flow as he confesses his sin and abandons himself to God’s tender mercy. Once an object of God’s wrath, he is now risen up a saint by the power of an Indestructible Life into his new life in Christ! Now truly saved he truly preaches Christ as He is and therefore the hearer of his message will truly repent and believe. This is probably the greatest need of the hour…from pulpit to pew, a true encounter with the Great and Awesome God, an encounter that changes absolutely everything, so that once more Christ is known, preached, and lived out as He truly is!

  57. Barry Schmidt Oct 18th 2013

    This article is so true – the main promise of the new covenant is this :
    “I will be God to you and you will be my people”
    Jer 31 and Heb 8
    If God promises to be Himself then we better have an accurate view of Him or our expectation will be flawed. This is the MAIN PROBLEM of the western church- they have a false view of God.

    They have a god who is made after the image and likeness of MAN!

  58. Christine Roberts Oct 18th 2013

    hi, nothing to add, except fully agree and thank you

  59. I take a little bit different approach. Man’s heart is inherently wicked. Paul said that we are to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.
    So, while I generally agree with the article, I think we all have to look inward and know that when we come face to face with God we will all tremble (and fall as dead men) at the filthy rags of our lives.
    That said, comparing “them” with “me” or “us” is a set up to fall.

  60. Linda in CA, USA Oct 18th 2013

    This is very old news that gets momentarily circulated because nothing is ever done about it. We were saying the same thing in the 80’s, folks like AW Tozer and T. Austin-Sparks were saying it in the early to mid 1900’s. Somewhere between the “all they preach is love” and “its always hellfire and brimstone” lies the Truth. In the 80’s I categorized most churches as ‘designer’ churches. I visited many and found most to have begun as a result of some piece of doctrine or theology or the fact that some wanted to hunt on Sunday, so could they have church on Saturday or Monday instead? Somewhere along the way, we began “GOING” to church instead of “BEING” the Lord’s church/body/ecclesia.

    You may find the answer to our present day dilemma in such places as Bethany, the only place Jesus ever found rest, love, caring, fellowship (without strings), a warm place to sleep and food. You remember the story of Martha and Mary. Martha was disgruntled because Mary was not helping her with meal preparations and additionally, she was sitting with the men in the men’s area of the house. Martha griped about Mary to Jesus. Mary, remained silent in a position that spoke of humbleness and love for her Lord. Jesus gently rebuked Martha and said that Mary was doing the better thing. Martha came around and was soon full of the love, peace and joy of the Lord.

    The lesson here is that most people in all churches (either man-made or ‘house’) are so busy ‘doing’ for the Lord that they miss him entirely. They live by the dead letter of the law and do not realize that they are dead men walking (living under the wrath of God since Adam and Eve). They seek nourishment from ear ticklers and each other: they gather together, but – forsake the gathering together under the rule and reign of Christ.

    On the other hand, Mary sits humbly, quietly, at the feet of Christ. She worships him, praises him, ministers to him – and she listens to him. THAT is what is missing from so called followers of Christ today and why we are not making true disciples. True love of Christ is not namby-pamby: it is Agape Love – full of commitment. One who enters this kind of relationship with Christ and Father has put off their own agenda and pursues only God’s. Such a disciple is humble, never thinks of himself and puts others first. He puts forth God’s truth revealing the character of Christ and Father with firm but loving brush strokes. He stands strong for the Lord, but does not force the issue just as God has never forced us to love him (he woos us to himself).

    I do take issue with the statement of “… eternal damnation in hell” (speaking of those who are not believers supposedly burning forever in hell). The Greek word for eternal is ‘aion’ or age. As humans, we live from age to age as we are bound by time. God is bound by nothing. He is timeless. Spirit is timeless. “Hell/death/sin” are all the same thing. Man was condemned to death because of his sin in partaking of the tree of knowledge. If he had eaten only from the tree of life back then, he would still be alive (ref Adam and Eve), walking and talking with God in the Garden or Heaven (Jesus described the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven as he was beginning his ministry). But – man sinned and so remained under God’s wrath (Strong’s 3709/3713/3950 – basically God is WROTH with man) and remains so unless/until he dies to self and lets Christ rule.

    It tells us in Rev chpts 20-21 that death and sin (lastly) will be cast into the lake of fire. Heb 12:29 tells us that the Lake of Fire is God. God will not allow evil to exist past the judgment (will mean cleansing, purifying etc), just as God did not allow Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden once they sinned. God does not allow sin in his vicinity, which is why Christ became separated from Father as he died upon the cross bearing the weight of our sins.

    It all comes down to what we focus on / which tree we eat from: tree of Life (Christ) or tree of knowledge (death)? Any instant we are not living from the tree of Life (Christ/God/Heaven), by default, we are living in death/hell/sin. Our focus should not be on what is going on in the world or even what is happening in the institutional church system: for these things take our hearts/minds/souls/spirits off of Christ. They are a distraction! Our focus should be Christ and Christ only – just as Mary of Bethany showed us. We should each become a Bethany for the Lord – totally surrendered, humbled and hanging on his every word of the Lord. For those still in the institutional church system, the Lord may have a special plan for your life. Seek Him with all your being.

  61. To me, getting an accurate picture of the gospel all turns one scripture: “Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

    If you took a survey of both ministers and people in churches and asked them how many of them are seeking first the kingdom, the results of people thinking they were doing this would probably be pretty high – maybe even towards 100%. I bet if you asked God how many were truly seeking first the kingdom the number would be extremely low – maybe close to 0%. Paul said in his day, all sought their own interests and not those of Christ Jesus. I don’t know that you can do the Christian walk half-hearted, but I guess the reality is that many people do.

    Without people seeking first the kingdom, you are not going to see true disciples or a complete picture of God. You are especially not going to see an accurate picture of the severity of God because it is an honor to know that side of him. Obviously we can read it in the scriptures, but it is not going to have the same meaning as if we were to know him that way. He is not going to reveal himself that way to someone who is week in the faith, because they would just run. Thus, they are not going to know him in depth that way or be able to convey that aspect of his nature to others.

    Many think they are seeking first the kingdom, and forfeiting their destinies. Let me give you an example. I am not trying to get any strokes, think of myself more highly than I out, or lose any rewards here – but I feel led to share it.

    This was a recent dream, about a minister (not what would be called a “prosperity”/”word of faith” preacher per se, but a relatively big name). In this dream he saw me and my walk with God, and he wanted the same walk for himself. In my mind my walk was mandatory for him, but in the dream I was thinking maybe it wasn’t. I guess they have to choose. I told him he could have my same walk, but it was going to cost him his ministry, his money, and maybe his family. The question then arose from him about me never having had to sacrifice something like that, but my answer was that I had forsaken my future to have my walk which was the essentially same and maybe more of a sacrifice than what he would have to do. In the dream I was thinking he didn’t choose that walk when he was younger and maybe it would be irresponsible for him at this point to give up everything for God, but that is what he would have to do if he wanted a more in depth walk. I guess he would have to seek the Lord about that.

    There really is a “price” to pay to have the fullness of God, but I don’t think it is really much of a price and there is great reward in that. If you can see light at the end of the tunnel you can make it through anything. It costs everything to seek first the kingdom, but so long as you surrender all and do not kick against the pricks you have it made. God can do decade’s worth of work on you in a very short period of time if we give him everything. I really thought it would be much harder than it was. I actually challenged God once after he told me I was done with my big trials and I wasn’t satisfied “is that all you got Lord?”- so he doubled it (in a spiritual sense he turned me wrong side out and then back right side in again). That is now coming to an end and I am exhausted so I am glad it is over. I am done challenging God. If I were honest part of me thinks that no human being could make it through what he put me through nor would it be alright with anybody that God would put someone through something like what he put me through. On the other hand it was only by the grace of God I made it through so another part of me thinks anyone could do it. I haven’t done anything ministry wise so I don’t want to be one putting on his armor boasting as one who takes it off, but God told me I was done and I would receive 100% authorization and commissioning to do what he called me to do. Now He has me on some kind of deal where every time I do something in obedience that he asks me to do, he gives me another gift. There are spiritual gifts well beyond what are listed in the bible. Most of them are in the Old Testament types and shadows, but others aren’t. As an example so you don’t think I am talking about something goofy, he gave me this gift where instead having to lay hands on people to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I could just pray and everyone would get it.

    Sorry about the wall of text. Hopefully this post does not come off as spiritually prideful; I really could care less about all that stuff. It was the relationship with God I was after, and it is available to all who seek first the kingdom. I shared it because I felt led, and hopefully it will help someone else. If all sought the kingdom first, we would see a much different church. Please don’t take it as me being 100 percent faithful either. I have made many mistakes, and God has rebuked me many times for despising his word by not spending enough time in it. He told me it would be my one regret. My new goal is to be one of the most faithful bible readers God ever had.

  62. William Oct 18th 2013

    I love all you folks! I am not finding like minded believers like you here in New England, USA. How I wish to be in fellowship with people like you, and Andrew…..well, you have been a blessing to me as well.

    What a GREAT article, one that I have already emailed to several “pastors” of feel good, mega churches here that I have visited, and seen the apostasy there.

    Grace be with you all.
    In Christ by Amazing Grace,
    WM

  63. watchful Oct 18th 2013

    {{That said, comparing “them” with “me” or “us” is a set up to fall.}}

    GaryM., I know you mean well but that line of thought actually leads to false unity of ecumenicalism and comes from the new age, humanistic way of thinking that so many are embracing now. Not meaning to single you out, you are not alone in that, but it’s just too important an issue to ignore. It needs to be examined in the clear light of the scriptures…hope you will take a fresh look and carefully reconsider. Bless you.

    2Cr 6:16

    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    2Cr 6:17

    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

  64. watchful Oct 18th 2013

    Something else the Lord has made clear to me lately concerns the health fad that is in the world and the church alike, since we are talking about the character of God. I think this needs to be shared………..Jesus said to TAKE NO THOUGHT to what we eat (or wear) and it is also written to eat anything sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience. Make no mistake, the current preoccupation with health fads is also NEW AGE. It is Babylonish and narcissistic, it is not from the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord has already put food on this planet, and He knows better than the smartest scientists alive what we need and He has promised to provide it just as He feeds the sparrows what they need. They are even arguing now about animal and dairy fats, for a quite a long while considered virtually to be poison, now many are having to eat their previous words and saying these are good for you in moderation……….Should we listen to these who can never make up their minds or have a clue how to hold the universe together in all it’s intricacy, or should we just believe God who created us and sustains us and everything else in existence?

    There is no virtue in going around to be seen by men sucking from a water bottle, there is no virtue in eating quinoa or whatever the latest food fad is…….simply don’t be gluttonous, that’s all. Even the basest of animals eat and drink when they are thirsty and hungry to stay alive, so why should we think there is virtue in it? All such things are from the evil one, it is from the world and worldly and has no place in the Body of Christ. The kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, amen and praise the Living God who leads us in the way everlasting..

  65. Several people have expressed “leaving one’s first love as the root of the malaise that has hit the churches. Jesus Christ stated:

    “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21)

    So there is the key element; Having AND keeping Christ’s commandments!

    The Apostle spoke thusly:

    By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (1John 2:3-6)

  66. Jim Guenther Oct 18th 2013

    This deception has been one of the enemy’s greatest tools…..”Did God really say…..” or the twist is “Is that what God really meant?” That deception has been a reoccuring theme since Adam and Eve. And the institutional church has fallen headlong into it.

  67. Inspired Oct 18th 2013

    Having and keeping His commandments. His commandments were to love God and each other.
    It was His love that was shed abroad in our hearts,
    and this is the law of the spirit of life. Owe no man anything but to love him. yet we in and of our self can not do this, because it is God who is love, and it is God who gives us His love and it is God who loves others through us.
    All of us are given revelations of scripture and so build a doctrine based solely on that one thing revealed. This is just a window. What about the walls, and the floors of the house? The storms come to reveal who built the house, for if the house is not built by Lord, then the labor is in vain.
    Even last night I was reading greet the brethren by the name. As I pondered this, people call each other sister and brother. Yet I asked for Yeshua to give His life that I understand this passage and he bid me to look at how the epistles are started– greetings brethren .. grace and peace to you. Grace/favor and peace/wholeness to you, that is it-this is greeting the brethren by the name, His name. That was one window. So then I pondered more, and found greet the brethren with a Holy kiss.
    So here comes a breath of fresh air after opening another window. Righteousness and peace have kissed- This is the Holy kiss we are to greet each other with recognizing the life of God in man. It is His righteousness that is imputed to us, and not our own, making His righteousness exceeding that of the pharisees. It is His peace He gives and not the worlds. His peace is wholeness/nothing lacking, missing or broken. So in all we greet each other in His name/character-His life that is to be in us.
    Same with the word lord. He that is greatest among you is your servant/lord. There is only one Greatest Servant/Lord and that Is Christ. Yet peter said to Him, no Lord, you shall not wash my feet, and the Greatest Servant/Lord said to him, if I do not then you have no part of Me. His walk was still lame. Scripture says we will walk on streets of gold. This may be a literal thing, yet gold is symbolic of righteousness, not ours but His, and we are to walk in His righteousness. Sometimes we stumble and misjudge one another not recognizing the one life/Christ, the consistency and cohesion of ALL things, not realizing that others have not progressed or prospered in their walk as others have.

    Scriptures say that we move and breathe and have our being in Him. he is doing way too many good things for us to be distracted by the insects/imperfections of others, as if we have already obtained perfection.

  68. watchful Oct 18th 2013

    Amen John Hayworth, in walking as Jesus walked, we will not walk as the world walks, by His grace. Bit by bit we are getting there as He shows us the Way..

  69. I found the previous article by Grady to be skimming the surface, while this one goes deeper and hits what the real problem is and has been for some time. I do believe that God is bringing correction to at least some of the deceived, calling them back or into, holiness and the fear of God. I am hearing it from even very flakey types!

  70. Michael james Oct 18th 2013

    Sir please help. Am in Nigeria, and i realy need to join the friday online prayer pls help me

  71. Michael james Oct 18th 2013

    We realy need Revival in Nigeria. Andrew storm please u have to help me join the friday online prayer. My country does not hav a phone number, sir please help me. Reply me via. [email protected]

  72. Darren Sargent Oct 18th 2013

    Until we realise that We are to be the ground and pillar of Truth and that the Church is built upon the foundations of the Prophets and Apostles, until we realise that together we have the Mind of Christ and that no amount of institutional reform, nor changes in the style of leadership, nor the lusting after the phenomenon of revival, nor even the preaching of a biblically ‘correct’ message – that message which She proclaims being the reflection and overflow of Her heart for the Lord – until we know we are brothers and sisters, and that the greatest among us should serve, until our unity matches the quality of the Godhead, until we are to each other what we ought to be in prayer and fellowship, until we are a provocation to jealousy for the Jew FIRST, until we are ready for the Day of Jacob’s trouble to speak resurrection Life in the Valley of Dry Bones God will in no way bless our best efforts.

    Until our travail drops like blood to the dusty ground in the Garden of Gethsemane and our agony and wailing unites itself with Jeremiah’s secret weeping, until our hearts are broken, rent and ploughed and His agony is Ours, until His eyes and seeing are our eyes and seeing, His words will never be ours. It is only when His Word has become flesh in us does He impart the Word that gives Life out of our flesh – the Word of Life that was from the beginning, the Word that is Spirit, the Spirit of Prophecy, the testimony of Jesus – this gospel, the power of salvation for the Jew first and then for the Gentile. This and only this is the gospel, the word of resurrecion life. I tell you, you will weep and wail while the world rejoices.

    We are a ‘get-by’ generation: what is the minimum I can do? Where is the short-cut? I know what ‘works'; I know what God can ‘use’. God used Hitler, God uses Satan regularly: God’s use of us is evidence of His sovereignty – not our odedience, nor His indwelling nor His resident Glory and Goodness. “Be perfect as I am perfect!” We have winced, we have not wanted to go through the narrow gate, we have sought a more amenable broad way, we don’t want to feel the squeezing and agony of the contractions of birth. Until we go down into the Jordan, until we pass through the Sea of Reeds, until we are confined in the Ark through the waters, until we are hedged in by thorns we will never come back to Him, we will never be born into the Glory of the Church.

    But when we do . . .

  73. In Jacob Prasch’s article called ” Egypt, Babylon, or the Palm of God?” it states that “the same things that happened in the last days of Judah, when Jeremiah’s message was rejected, will happen in the Last Days full stop, both to the Jews and to the church. It will be repeated; remembering that a Judeo-Christian perspective of prophecy regards it as cyclical. What you see happening right now, with the interfaith movement, the ecumenical movement, and the New Age movement, is about the Babylonian Captivity.

    During the Middle Ages, Martin Luther came to realize there had been a Babylonian Captivity of the church under the medieval papacy. He understood the spiritual character of Babylon, this marriage of the political system of the world to a corrupt religious system: this was the ‘Holy Roman Empire’, which was neither holy nor Roman. This will happen again; we can see the Captivity coming. The faithful remnant of the last days of Judah faced what the faithful remnant of the last days of the church will face.

    They had three choices: Egypt, a figure of the world; Babylon, a figure of false religion; or the palm of God.

    Do not expect the high and mighty – the mega-churches – do not expect the Christians who are caught up in affluence, who are caught up in doctrines designed to produce material benefit, do not expect the big figures you see on what is erroneously referred to as “Christian” television, to survive; they will not survive. They will go to Babylon. It will be the poorest of the land who survive. However, when this happens, God is taking care of His people, though the king of Babylon never loses sight of his designs. He wants to dominate and rule everything.

    Going back to Jeremiah’s time everyone knew now that Jeremiah was right; all the false prophets with the big talk and the big mouths were gone. Nothing they had said came to pass; they were proven wrong. However, in spite of the proof that they were wrong, people still continued to believe them. “The prophets prophesy falsely and My people love it so.” This applies today; we have men such as Michael Brown, Rick Joyner, Benny Hinn, etc. – you know who they are – who prophesy falsely. Yet people will follow these men in an act of direct rebellion, and a time will come when they will reap the consequences of that; the Captivity will take place. It is a remnant – and only a remnant – who do not go into captivity

    The faithful, however, though they may be a minority and they may be the poorest of the land, will have an abundance of food. These faithful, in terms of spiritual things, have a lot to eat. They know things about the Antichrist, the Last Days, and other concepts of which most Christians have no idea. The majority is being set up for the Babylonian Captivity and they don’t even know it. But the few, the poor, the small, the faithful – they will survive. Knowledge is power; the majority has no food. They have no people who are capable of teaching them”.

    To read the whole article go to Moriel Ministries website

    Egypt, Babylon, & the Palm of God’s Hand – Moriel Ministries
    http://www.moriel.org/…/Egypt_Babylon_and_the_Palm_of_God/egypt_babyl…‎

  74. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2013

    The biggest problem with a wrong view of God is that we always become like the god we see and worship .

    But where are the men who have been to the mountain top who have seen the glory of the God of heaven whose faces are shining and reflecting with the glory of the only true God of the Bible? Where is the fellowship of the shining faces?

    This is why the people are running wild in the valley worshipping the false gods being peddled by the religious hucksters of our generation!

    We who claim to be men and women of the God of the Bible have little or no glory on our faces because we substitute being face to face and open heart to open heart with the Almighty for Christian trappings, for things ABOUT GOD. We think ABOUT HIM , we read ABOUT him, we talk ABOUT him and we listen to messages ABOUT him.

    BUT WHERE ARE THE SHINING FACES?
    Where are the men who have been with Jesus?

    The resurection life is not a life ABOUT GOD IT IS A LIFE LIVED TOWARDS GOD! Only grace can give us courage to stand before the Everlasting Burning.

    We don’t want to live face to face with the one whose penetrating gaze will expose our shallow love, out shallow faith , out shallow grace and our shallow repentance .

    It’s OUR FAULT THE CHURCH DOESN’T KNOW GOD!!!!
    We are the ones who have only outer court glory on our faces!

  75. Inspired Oct 19th 2013

    On the contrary Barry,
    The outer court is where the ones who shine are killed/stoned etc. Ask Stephen, who was stoned when he brought a message from the Holy of Holies into the outer court. What did he say to those who were slaying him? lay not this sin to their charge.
    Grace and exceeding grace gives us the courage to stand in the fire, for when all is burned up there is only one life left, and that is His. Not I but Christ who lives.

  76. Darren Sargent Oct 19th 2013

    I think maybe that it is not that we become the god we worship but that we ARE the god we worship: we think we are like god, there is the heart of sin.

    yes Barry, we do need to be habituated to the fellowship of God in the Holy of Holies where there is no natural light but His reflecting off the the inlaid gold . . . where Samuel slept.

    But our ministry is in the court of the Israelites. Where did Jesus say the Last Prophet was stoned? Between the altar and the Holy Place?

  77. watchful Oct 19th 2013

    {{ I think maybe that it is not that we become the god we worship but that we ARE the god we worship: we think we are like god, there is the heart of sin.}}

    Amen, the heart of sin, and it is the heart of the new age package. Wanting to be our own gods…..this I believe is the iniquity that was “found” in Adam and Eve when they were tested. Though I don’t think this contradicts what Barry said there, but shows what it stems from.

  78. watchful Oct 19th 2013

    New age is the *synthesis* of all things that are not of God and the Tree of Life. It is all-inclusive of everything except the one true Faith and nature of Christ……this seems to be how He is *gathering* all “the nations” for the great day of battle. Sorry if I seem to be harping on new age, but it really is related to the true character of God – He is sharply defining and delineating between what is of Him and what is not with His sharp two-edged sword. We need it because of the hugely deceptive way that things are shaping up now, and so that our lights will be shining bright and clear in the gathering darkness.

  79. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2013

    No one can consistently live in a way that is inconsistent with the way they perceive God.

    NOT ONLY THAT but Until people see God the way he is they ALREADY have by default a false view of Him. It is only by Gods mercy that people come to an accurate perception of Him. When Moses prayer that He might see Gods glory what was Gods reply? “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion in whom I will have compassion.”

    It is only by Gods mercy that anyone ever has a proper view of God. People will never see God apart from Him extending mercy towards them in His merciful demonstrations of self disclosure .

    Men NEVER just wake up one day and decide to know and see God! Neither do they see God for who He really is by someone telling them ABOUT Him. God decides whom he will have mercy on and whom He will have compassion on.
    This is why we pray – BECAUSE GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO DECIDES WHO HE REVEALS HIMSELF TO!!

    If you don’t believe this then why are you praying? Why not go plead with men to see God accurately .

    Not only that but Gods wrath is demonstrated by turning people over to their false cherished views of Him. Romans 1:25 -32 teaches us that God’s wrath is being revealed by this turning over .

    Someone here contrasts God’s love with Gods wrath. This is a bogus contrast that has no foundation in biblical truth. God’s wrath IS A MANIFESTATION OF HIS LOVE!!! God is love ALLL THE TIME!!! When He demonstrates His wrath it is the MOST LOVING THING HE CAN DO towards that which is harmful and destructive to both his creatures and His creation.

  80. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2013

    for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5 NASB)

    Every stronghold is related to “the knowledge of God”

    Whenever the church fails to hold a proper view if God IT IS A STRONGHOLD IN THE MINDS OF THE PEOPLE.

    AW Tozers rightly said, “what comes to a mans mind when he thinks of God is the most important thing about that man.”
    Every problem is life is always THEOLOGICAL – rooted in a false view of God. In like manner every solution is found in KNOWING GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST JESUS.

    When we look in Jesus face we see the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of His being. Jesus is ALWAYS the agent of Gods wrath . WHEN JESUS COMES SINNERS WILL CRY , “Hide us from the wrath of the LAMB!!!”

    Yet to Gods people this is how Jesus related to them:

    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:9 NASB)
    Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Romans 8:33, 34 NASB)

    Let us not fear Gods wrath towards us dear children of God – Jesus is the agent if Gods wrath- who died for us and who will ever bring a charge against us because of that propitiatory sacrifice to fully satisfy the earth of the LAMB!!

  81. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2013

    Sorry ” that propitiatory sacrifice to fully satisfy the wrath of the Lamb

  82. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2013

    Gods wrath is one of his essential attributes just like his eternal power, his divine omniscience and omnipresence are his essential attributes. To circumcise God of his wrath is to no longer have God but an idol god.

    The wrath of God is also essential to the gospel message without the wrath of God being included in the gospel the cross is meaningless. One of historical slides away from including Gods wrath in the presentation of the gospel occurred when those in the theological ivory towers decided to substitute the word “atonement” for the word “propitiation”.
    NIV “he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins ”
    NASB “he is the propitiation for our sins”
    Propitiation was a term essential to the gospel of the apostles and prophets !
    What’s the difference?
    Atonement merely speaks of relational union and reconciliation but propitiation means ” the turning aside of the WRATH OF GOD”

    No wrath – no gospel – no gospel – no salvation!

    But let’s be clear- sinners who pace their faith in Jesus death are delivered from Gods wrath- to say otherwise is ALSO A DENIAL OF THE APOSTOLIC GOSPEL.

    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:9, 10 NASB)

  83. Inspired Oct 19th 2013

    Wrath in poetic language is passion.
    If we take the verse in revelation of the bowls of the wrath of God being poured out. They match the same representation of the duties of the priest of the O.T.
    The blood is collected in the bowls and then sprinkled on the sinner. The bowls of Gods wrath in the N T speaks of the blood of Christ being poured out as that sacrifice.
    The only thing I have seen Him curse is self righteousness. And if we are in the Son, and the Son pleased God then how is he going to curse His own Son of who we are secured in?
    I do not believe He punishes but that there is a cause and effect of the choices and influences we make, and we can learn by wisdom and hearing Him or we can learn by experiences.

  84. Doug P. Oct 19th 2013

    Unrelated but Christians should be aware of this: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.553277

  85. watchful Oct 19th 2013

    If that is the case Inspired, then may I respectfully ask how would we account for where it says that the children of God are NOT appointed unto wrath? And many other places where wrath is clearly demonstrated to be talking about anger and judgment..? If wrath means the blood of Christ then that would contradict the scripture since we obviously have been sprinkled with the Blood.

    Jesus cursed the fig tree, but it also says that in Him there is no darkness, so maybe that is what the devil and his cohorts were created for, to be agents of the wrath of God (it is written that God created the destroyer to work havoc), so Jesus did not actually kill the tree Himself, He handed it over to the devil. That would agree with the cause and effect aspect of what you are saying, I think, although I would not diminish it entirely to cause and effect because that would seem to diminish the personhood of God…for example, His sovereign decision making and working with the unique individuality of each person, even His ability to change His mind when there is intercession, etc.

  86. Inspired Oct 19th 2013

    Is.64:7 No one calls on Thy name and bestirs himself to lay hold on Thee, for Thou hast hidden Thy face from us and hast DELIVERED us to the CONTROL of our iniquities. Did He really hide His face? he does not change, but perhaps we turned from Him.
    James1:4 But every man is tempted when he is DRAWN away of his OWN LUST and enticed. Then lust when it is conceived brings forth sin and sin when finished brings forth death.
    The Lord bless and keep you and cause His face to shine upon you…..
    Who is keeping me? Who is blessing me?
    The Lord is. It is when I try to bless/empower myself and keep/guard myself that I run into trouble. I have turned to myself that is to be crucified with Him to depend on my own righteousness instead of trusting Him and His righteousness imputed to me.
    Yeshua cursed/dis-empowered the fig tree/self righteousness.
    Yet scripture says that no one speaking by the Holy Spirit calls Him accursed/dis-empowered. He is blessed/empowered.
    John 9:39 for judgment I came into the world for those who do not see, to see and for those who see may become blind.
    In Christ there is no condemnation. If I am feeling condemned I must not be in Christ, and am relying on my carnal mind to give me judgment.

  87. watchful Oct 19th 2013

    Yes, Inspired but I am confused as to how all that relates to the wrath of God being the blood of Christ….? Or maybe I wasn’t very clear in what I was getting at:

    1Th 5:9
    “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ…”

    If the bowls of wrath are the Blood of Christ, then wouldn’t we be appointed unto wrath/Blood..? whereas it says that we are not appointed to wrath…..Hope that clarifies. I can understand how the similarity of the bowls might have led to your conclusion, however, it says that they are “storing up” wrath for themselves, so it makes sense that bowls are vessels that store and collect, so to speak, the wrath – and also perhaps to show a contrast with the bowls of Blood that the objects of His wrath are rejecting, and so receive the wrath instead.

  88. Inspired Oct 19th 2013

    Wrath is passion, which is love, so wrath poured out is love poured out.
    God demonstrates His own love for us, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    The whole of creation is a display of HIS Righteousness and not our own.
    His banner over us is love.

  89. To INSPIRED
    re your comments “On the contrary Barry, the outer court is where the ones who shine are killed/stoned etc. Ask Stephen, who was stoned when he brought a message from the Holy of Holies into the outer court.”
    I agree with you’ inspired’ -people are speaking out against the false prophets/teachers and even pastors/leaders in their local congregations, the latter folk being stoned and persecuted. It has happened like this for all generations.
    Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    It will continue like this until Christ returns, and sadly we will see the majority of the so called church and its false leaders head into apostasy, but there will be that remnant of true believers who will not bow the need to those gods of Baal, despite the cost that many may have to pay or have already paid.

    Our job is to continue to speak and stand for the truth of God’s word, no matter what satan and his co workers throw at us. Jesus is the complete demonstration of that victory via the work of the cross. And to rescue as many souls as we can (who are willing), from that increasing church apostasy and satanic deception.

    God bless you faithful ones here……………..

  90. watchful Oct 19th 2013

    Inspired……….. I am sorry, but that doesn’t make sense with the scriptures that speak of His wrath. It would mean that the scripture is saying that God’s people are not appointed to His love.

    His wrath is outside of His love, outside of His kindness, outside of Christ………where there is outer darkness. He has already poured out His love, has He not…..at Calvary..?

  91. Andrew Oct 19th 2013

    Wrath is the “fierce anger” of God against sin and darkness.

    If they didn’t want to give that meaning, they would have used a different word.

    Wrath is wrath.

    Love is love.

    Pretty simple.

    Blessings,

    Andrew Strom

  92. watchful Oct 20th 2013

    …..our thoughts are like birds, capable of flying great heights above the ground, whereas they need to be taken captive, to come to rest in the branches of the tree. Love roots and grounds us, so that our thoughts have our rest in Him. The faithful Shepherd hems in His flock at night, and doesn’t allow them to wander too far in the daytime, it is for their protection. This is why we need to test all things…test the thoughts that come, the voice we hear, test everything, it is for our own good.

  93. World English Dictionary
    wrath (rɒθ)
    — n
    1. angry, violent, or stern indignation
    2. divine vengeance or retribution
    3. archaic a fit of anger or an act resulting from anger

    — adj
    4. obsolete incensed; angry

    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    GaryB

  94. The word translated “eternal” in relation to hell in the translations where it is falsely translated that way does not mean eternal: the word means “to an age” and it is the SAME word used by the Lord Jesus when He told His disciples in the great Prophesy (NOT the “great commision”! There is no such thing as the great commission – He said “SHALL be going” which is not a command: it is a prophetic utterance!!! A prophetic utterance WILL come to pass. A command? Maybe – maybe not.) …. anyway the word – the SAME word was used when He told the 12 “I will be with you always even to the end of the age.” The problem is men have twisted various translations through the ages (and King James was one of these culprits) to control the masses to keep them under the thumb of the church and state. So was invented the doctrine of eternal hell. But hell is not eternal!!! It is a temporary correctional place!!!!!! Age means age and MANY places where the same word is used in scripture it applies to temporary situations. Get a better translations of scripture. One accurate translation is Robert Young’s Literal Translation.

    The real truth about the Lord Jesus Christ has been hidden by the controllers of religion for ages because they wanted to paint paintings of a stern, condemning Savior instead of the Jesus the early disciples knew and loved. Why? to control others and build their own kingdom instead of the kingdom of God. But in recent years archeology of areas that are not just Jewish based but where early Christians met and gathered (and these were ALWAYS in homes NEVER in church buildings! THAT started with Constantine.) reveal THEIR REVELATIONS of what Jesus was like and still IS like. Their pictures of our Savior was of One Who was always smiling! But I thought the Bible said He was a Man of Sorrows?? Well, of course He was! just because He was joyful and triumphant does not mean He was not a Man of sorrows. It was BECAUSE He was so joyful that He was a Man of sorrows! Because He has so much joy to share with the world and they are not hearing Him this causes great grief and sorrow and the main thing about His sorrow was the agony of His sacrificial death. If sin was not so terrible, that awful death would not have been so terrible. But HE KNOWS He is the WINNER!!! He is a far more powerful Savior than folks think. He is able to save to the uttermost! WELL able! Yes, scripture DOES reveal God WILL save ALL men! But if I were you, I’d get saved in this age now because it will be easier on you. HELL is STILL REAL!!

    I point to one excellent example: George Fox. If you want to see what he believed on this subject point your browser to http://www.hallvworthington.com and do some research on him. He did NOT believe hell was eternal!!! BUT he had farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more folks quaking and trembling and records reveal the beginning of wisdome which is the FEAR OF GOD literally caused holy dread to fall upon whole cities where he visited! Was these signs following (including miracles adn healings etc.!!) due to the fact he was preaching lies????? I think NOT! He had far more of the fear of God MANIFESTED in his ministry than ANYONE I am writing to right now! My point? A question: WHICH is scarier? GOD or HELL? The Bilble NEVER tells us to fear ANYTHING other than God Himself!!! It says “fear not” 365 times: one for every day of the year! TO paint God as NOT willing and able to save all is to mar the face of God and make Him much lower than Who He is!

    One more thought: Paul ONLY writes about hell ONCE!!! ONCE??? Yes! Once! And what he said was very minimizing!!!! It is in I Corinthians 15:55 “where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?” So where? How is hell going to win??????? NOT! Jesus is VICTOR! EVERY knee SHALL BOW and every tongue shall confess Jesus to be their Lord. This will take place AFTER the 2nd resurrection.

    Look. I’m no

    BUT ….

  95. Inspired Oct 20th 2013

    Watchful,
    Agree with the thoughts being birds, and the higher they fly are indicative to the higher thoughts of God, and not the lower ones of organic man. Words are the seeds they eat, and thus as I have watched nature, I have seen where they eat seeds of certain fruit and as they pass by their droppings which contain the seed land on the ground and bring forth the tree, and fruit of whatever seed they ingested.
    I also looked at the wise saying of proverbs and seen that a fool loses his temper but a wise man keeps it back. Understanding this, that anger is losing self control of which the Lord through His workings in us brings us to this fruit of the spirit as part of His image an likeness that we are created in. His correction in me has always been remedial to bring understanding, as the scripture say in all our getting, to get understanding.
    I also think it important to allow some one to speak even if it is different than the ideas of others. Not for protest reasons, but so I know their mindset. Scripture also says for us to divide the WORD of God. I asked myself why? The conclusion is to that we can cut the truth out of scripture. Yet many here will probably say that all the scripture is true. Yet if this be the case why then does Jer.8:8 speak of the pens of the LYING scribes.
    I also take into the fact that Nahum 1:11 says, who is this wicked counselor of yours that plots evil against the Lord? And their are also a couple other scriptures like this. I have been led to spend much time in prayer and in asking, that I may understand.
    I come here to make comments as I receive an invitation in my e-mail from Andrew to do so. However I know that this is his domain, website, and so hate when I comment only to be blocked for showing another perspective. A perspective that I have spent time on that I may know the truth, and not just pass something along that would be termed as a tradition of men. Theology is not something I am interested in, but instead the way of life. In searching scripture, I understand that man is formed of the dust of the ground and this is what he will return to. Being this as the case, how then does dust burn in eternity?
    The inner man is one that returns to God, and sure fire purifies all things. yet scripture tells me of this depth and height and length and breadth of His love.
    I also see that in scripture that Yeshua says that the Father does not judge and that He handed all judgement over to the Son. Then there is scripture that say that the Son does not judge but if He did his judgment would be true because the Father is with him. Hell is the grave, and we will all go there unless He returns before we pass.
    I understand that I was sown in a corruptible body and that I inherit an incorruptible body.
    Death is an enemy of God and us too. Yet he has said that death is swallowed up in victory. He said He did not give us a spirit of fear but one of a sound mind. I have learned to let Him define me and not man. Still yet I have not reached the perfection state and can only boast in the stupid things I have believed and or done, which leaves my boasting in God who rescued me out of all things causing me to trust Him. Fear would not make me do so, but His love drew me in.
    I learned not to just open a window of a revelation received, but to allow walls and foundation of faith to support me. Even with that, it is His faith and not my own, for my own faith would leave me in poverty.

  96. watchful Oct 20th 2013

    Amen GaryB, and just as Andrew said, it means what it means, just as the word love means what it means. If the wrath of God means something desirable then we would not need to be sheltered from it in the day of His anger (Zeph. 2:3).

    How I praise the Lord for His reminders and readjustments from time to time, I find I need it more as I get older and forget scriptures sometimes, there are so many of them. Just grateful for the opportunity to hash things out here, bless you Andrew.

  97. [quote] The problem is men have twisted various translations through the ages (and King James was one of these culprits) to control the masses to keep them under the thumb of the church and state. So was invented the doctrine of eternal hell. But hell is not eternal!!! It is a temporary correctional place!!!!!![/quote]

    If this is true why would we need Christ? We could all go and get some temporary correction and it would be over, Right!
    No dead Wrong!

    This statement is a heretical doctrine, “Hell is eternal”, you should look to the whole Bible and not just a few passages. Jehovah witnesses believe that there is not a Hell which is a false doctrine.

    Mark 9:45
    And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that “never shall be quenched:”

    Revelation 20:
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was “cast into the lake of fire”.

    GaryB

  98. The statement I was talking about is in quotes above which is a heretical doctrine. Sorry for not clarifying this in the above comment.

    There is a “Hell” and it is “Eternal”.

    And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

    GaryB

  99. John Anderson wrote: Beginning with God’s warning to Adam and Eve that if they ate of
    the forbidden fruit they would die, the stern but vital truth in Scripture
    is that the God of Justice says every evildoer is under His wrath
    (John 3:36); and unless he or she repents and receives forgiveness
    and cleansing made possible through His Son’s shed blood on the
    Cross, they face “eternal” damnation in hell. Above Quote….

    This is a true statement.

    Anyone who comes and says that hell will cease to exist is a deceiver and speaks the words of satan it is that simple. The devil is still trying to deceive people on this earth with all forms of heretical doctrines.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Jesus said:
    Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into “everlasting punishment”: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Hebrews 6:
    6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of “eternal judgment.”

    Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”.

    Jesus said again: 46 where
    ‘Their worm does not die,
    And the fire is not quenched.

    GaryB

  100. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2013

    If divine wrath is actually meaning to say divine love as someone here insists then propitiation through blood shedding is meaningless.

    Gods paasionate love DOES NOT NEED TO BE PROPITIATED ( turned away) It never!!!
    It is ONLY His wrath that needs to be turned aside and directed towards his only Son in putting Him to death by the most violent and horrendous means of execution known to mankind.

    Gods wrath is not as you assume merely His passion. Gods wrath is His the full, just and loving expression of his holiness against that which does the most harm and pain in His creation – namely sin!
    His wrath is not capricious or selfish- it is the ONLY just, reasonable and good response that an all wise, all holy, all pure and all living God can do.

    Remove Gods wrath and you no longer have the God of the Bible but a false idol man made idol god.
    Gods wrath cannot be ignored, denied, avoided or explained away – IT CAN ONLY BE EITHER POURED OUT OR PROPITIATED BY FAITH IN THE DEATH OF HIS SON.

  101. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2013

    A good friend of mine was telling someone that if they refused to accept Gods propitiation of His wrath in the death of Jesus or they would find themselves facing the full expression of Gods wrath in the eternal lake if fire.
    The person listened quietly until my friend mentioned Hell.
    Then he angrily spike this to my friend , “I don’t BELIEVE IN HELL!!!”

    My friend calmly and wisely responded , “That will make no difference when you get there.”

    Whether you BELIEVE in Gods wrath is irrelevant to its reality.

  102. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2013

    If you remove the objective reality of Gods wrath from the Bible then you better also remove the casting away from Paradise, the flood of Noah, the destruction if Sodom and Gomorrah, the perishing of an entire generation of Jews in the desert of Sinai the judgement of the nations , the destruction if Jerusalem (TWICE) the diaspora, the total destruction of the cities Jesus performed his most notable miracles in, THE DEATH OF GODS SON, the 7 trumpets of the book of Revelation and the eternal lake of Fire described in The 21 chapter of Revelatiom-

    Still want to remove the wrath of God from the Bible?
    Why not just throw out the entire Bible?

  103. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2013

    If all these events were merely Gods passion- May god have mercy on me and deliver me from such PASSSION!!!!

  104. Inspired Oct 20th 2013

    So He came to destroy the works of the enemy.
    Who is the enemy of God? The carnal mind.
    Sure I want that destroyed, with fire.
    Death/carnal mind is cast into the lake of fire,
    so that all that is left is the mind of Christ.
    Didn’t our hearts burn within us?
    What is shed abroad in the heart of man?
    The love of God.

  105. The rich man and Lazarus.

    Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

    16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

    16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

    16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

    16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

  106. watchful Oct 20th 2013

    Inspired, all I know is that He teaches me as He teaches a child, in simplicity and practicality, not loftiness, and so I listen and heed and try to share the portion He gives me. There is a danger in wanting to be like God knowing good and evil for ourselves, our thoughts taking flight instead of resting and nesting in the branches of the Tree. It leads to calling evil good and good evil.

    I won’t belabour this any longer, but I can’t help but notice that you don’t seem to want to address the scrips that I mentioned. Unless you really think God allowed the lying pen of the scribes to lie to that extent? If so isn’t that just another way of saying, “Did God really say..?” But if this is the case then we would have to throw out the whole bible, whereas Jesus and the Apostles thought well enough of it to teach from it. The wisdom and understanding we are to get is not lofty thoughts, it is a Person. Poor Solomon didn’t understand that, and that’s why even with all his wisdom and knowledge it couldn’t keep him from falling in the end.

    It is simple, but the heart of man is not content to remain in safe confinement within His sheepfold, in simplicity, and that always seems to be his downfall, not being content with such things as he has, within the bounds that God has set for man. Even the sons of God will do the Father’s will, not their own. We will ever be subordinate to Him no matter how high up we may get in our own eyes. Blessings to you.

  107. Inspired Oct 20th 2013

    Blessings to you Watchful, I answered your question and in all actuality you were saying almost the same thing.
    We all learn as children.
    Because I am confident in His provision, my thoughts are lofty? My boasting have been on Him, not me.
    Knowledge truly is what puffs up, but understanding humbles truly.
    So if Yeshua is the Son of God, and called God His Father and tells us to do likewise, and yet says to Phillip, how can you ask me to show you the Father, have I not been with you for a while, for if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
    What did yeshua do? he came to open blind eyes and deaf ears and cause the lame to walk and the dead to be raised.
    Who comes to steal, kill, and destroy?
    If my natural dad was one who would literally set me on fire, if I lived through it, I would forgive, but not trust him ever again.

  108. The truth of God appeals to our new heart…

    We don’t reason it or logic it – we just know it…

    The lake of fire and brimstone is a reality – an eternal reality – for all who do not turn in faith to Jesus Christ…

    It was prepared for the devil and his demons…

    Man sinned against God – men and women – and now all who do not repent and believe in Jesus’ propitiation on their behalf – taking away the wrath of God from them – will also end up there for eternity…

    Jesus’ Blood was shed so that we would never need to go to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone – that is how serious it is – that is how real it is…

  109. watchful Oct 21st 2013

    Inspired…….I settled it with the Lord a while back that even if He deemed that I should be sent to hell, I would still worship Him as God because He is the only Truth, the only one righteous. And Job said that even if He slew him, he would still trust Him. Because “I” am not the measure of right and wrong, the Lord is.

    Humanistic thinking will accuse God of wrong-doing because of making ourselves the measure of right and wrong, trying to make the scriptures fit our ideas of right and wrong, instead of letting Him renew our minds to know that He alone is God and that His judgments are righteous. It is like where it says:

    Isa 29:16

    You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”?

    Isa 45:7

    I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

    Isa 45:9

    “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?

    and…..

    Rom 9:11-24

    Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
    not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

    Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

    For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

    For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

    Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

    But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”

    Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

    What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
    even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

  110. Inspired Oct 21st 2013

    Watchful,
    I am sorry, but I will not accept a victim mentality,
    when He has promised victory. Maybe I look at the cross
    a bit differently than some do, as I see it as a victory and not a poor Yeshua. Please know I mean no disrespect to the Lord for what I just said about poor Yeshua, because He has given me strength and courage through the years. I will not accept defeat, when He has won the battle for me. I think of it in terms that it is finished, and watch as it is finished unfolds in my life.
    Again as read scripture I see from a different perspective, of one of victory. I do know there are those who are for honor and those for dishonor.
    Yet I have to believe that as I am in Him that I have all things he has as an heir and joint heir with Him. What does that mean? In my reality, even if my body is manifesting a sickness, my reality is sickness is not Christs and so not mine and is a lie and not my true reality.
    You write what if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known…
    Did He not do that on the cross? Did He not make an open show of the enemies and powers that be? Was not all power given over to the Son? Does not power beget power? Does not the Father LOVE the Son? If so and I am in the Son, does he not love me too? If he loves me and has power to impute His righteousness to me, why would He turn around and impute sin? If our faith is just for this one life we are but to be pitied. Gen. says we are created in His image and likeness. This is either true or it is not.
    The potter/Christ/life is IN the clay/vessel/ us. Is not life subjecting the clay/vessel? Is not the law of life in Christ ever in motion?
    I form the light and create the darkness,etc..
    Look at the pattern of that very thing. I form the light/understanding, and I create the darkness/ignorance. I am sorry but I do ask why, so I can understand. He allows the darkness/ignorance so we will ask questions which sometimes He has answered them before we get them out of our mouths.
    Why the contrast I ask? He said to me, had you not known hatred, how could you value real love.
    Does not light/understanding come to darkness/ignorance and not the other way around?
    Asking questions is about relationship. he is to be our TRUE Husband.
    Who can resist His will? He has a will and an intention. Darkness/ignorance He has willed that light/understanding overcome.
    Someone above mentioned something about the flood of Noah. When I read that I seen this, “flood of rest”, that is what Noah means,rest. Noah was righteous, and maybe understood grace, and gathered all his animals/emotions/feelings etc inside the ark/self control.
    Shall I ask Father what is wrong with me when He shows me things like this? or shall I enjoy His goodness? Does he correct me? Absolutely, and if I still persist of doing it my way, then His hand is not on it and I suffer the consequences, much like a child when you tell them not to touch the stove is will burn you. I can only tell you that He is good and love and life.

  111. watchful Oct 21st 2013

    Dear friend, I appreciate your response, although don’t understand why you impute defeat and victim mentality in what I posted there. On the contrary, now that I acknowledge that He is God, and imputing no unrighteousness in Him – knowing He has both the right and the power to make pottery as He chooses – now I am in a very good position both to appreciate my own salvation and also to ask Him on behalf of others that He would please likewise choose to make them into pottery for noble use.

    I agree with what you are saying concerning those who are in Christ, except that we’re talking about how God will deal with those who are not in Christ and reject Him in the end. But there are always things in the way that need healing and repentance before we can see Him as He is, and I praise God that He is able to take all of us from glory to glory til each appears before Him in Zion. So keep on keeping on, Inspired, and I will do the same, may the Lord our God bless you.

  112. Inspired Oct 21st 2013

    In response, I can only tell you what I am hearing.
    Jer. 32:27 behold, I am the Lord, The God of all flesh, Is there anything too hard for Me?
    The God of how many flesh? ALL.
    Luke 1:37 For with God, nothing shall be impossible.
    How many things are impossible? Nothing.
    Luke 18:27 the things which are impossible with men, are possible with God.
    Can man save himself? No, it is impossible, yet with God, nothing is impossible.
    Peace and grace unto you

  113. If you believe God is telling you that eventually He will save all – even those who have died not having believed in His Son Jesus Christ – “Inspired” – then you are not hearing from God…

    Once you die in that state there is nothing which can save you from the wrath of God…

  114. Inspired Oct 22nd 2013

    Andrew Horton,
    I am not hearing from God?? Can you please explain this for me? So Christ is not powerful enough to subdue all things?
    1Cor. 15
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    23 But EVERY man in his own ORDER: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put ALL enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27 For he hath put ALL things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put ALL things under him.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    and these too? Col.1:27, and rom. 16:25

  115. watchful Oct 22nd 2013

    I’m just thinking about the choosiness of God. :) Yes, He is God of all flesh – and that was the point exactly – to do with as He chooses. While all things are certainly *possible* with God, if He so chose, it’s pretty clear that not all mankind will inherit eternal life……because another aspect about the character of God all through the bible is that He is very choosy. Some might even say picky, and I bow down to Him because He of all that exists has the supreme right to be! Bless you and praise you oh Lord our God..

  116. Inspired Oct 22nd 2013

    Picky?? Scratching my head. He sure hung out with sinners a lot. Must be that He picked them. Let’s see,
    Rom. 3:10, none are righteous, no, not one.
    How many? None
    God is omnipotent, not impotent.

  117. ValleyAnt Oct 22nd 2013

    Grace to everyone.

    Grady said, “Let’s become leaders who act like Jesus.”

    Jesus said that in the end, there are only two kinds of ministers: those who’re like Him and those who aren’t:

    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling… flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep” (Jn. 10:11-13).

    Training His ministers to be like Him, Jesus told Peter, “Feed My lambs… Tend My sheep… Feed My sheep.”

    We need leaders who are/act like Jesus. The whole Creation is in desperate need and is thirsty for the Life of God to be poured out on it again.

  118. Andrew Oct 22nd 2013

    Inspired – it is sad to see you seem to have embraced the deception of “Univeralism”. A very old heresy.

    Blessings,

    Andrew

  119. Inspired Oct 22nd 2013

    Andrew,
    I do not embrace universalism.
    I really do not know what they believe.
    I only embrace the life of God. That is all
    there is for me.
    What is sad is that we do not recognize
    His life in us, since we move and breathe and have our being in Him.
    Peace is yours brother.

  120. ValleyAnt Oct 22nd 2013

    To the first several posts…

    Kathe, you said “Leaders can only lead as far as they’ve come…. Most haven’t gone very far.” True. And Christianity is largely based on guilt today so that no one has to learn the truth (about the enemy, etc.) since “I [should be able to] do all things [myself] through Christ who strengthens me.” May God give you Grace today and great Grace in the future to intercede.

    Logan, these endtime revivals outside of churches will definitely happen.

    K.M., well said. Alex Smith, amen. Watchful, amen; Babylon indeed is fallen already and is falling.

    Reb, you rightfully said, “The core of the matter, IMO, is UNBELIEF. The modern church has the same kind of faith that Eve had. She KNEW what God said, but did not truly believe. She did not believe that God’s statements ended the matter.” Even ministers seldom believe that God’s Word (words) is final. Without a doubt, you shared the truth. You add, “What we need most is FAITH. Faith is simply believing God and not expecting any qualifications to His words.” Jesus prayed, “[Bring Your will to pass in them] by the truth; YOUR Word is truth.” Amen. “Will He find faith on the earth?” Amen.

    DonaldN, amen.

    Jerry Olson, amen: “… the purest form of worship is obedience.” God gave us common sense so that we can’t escape not obeying His clearly revealed will. To this common sense He ‘appealed’ when Samuel said to Saul’s blubbering, “Has God as great delight in sacrifice as in obeying the voice of the Lord?” Saul, who was raised by a father and had children, knew the answer was ‘not even close’.

    To so many Christians today, Samuel would give the warning (yes, warning of impending judgment), “To obey is [before, more important than] sacrifice.” Leaders today who can’t find it in their hearts to obey rather than sacrifice (duty) better find it quick; it’ll be their only passport into eternal Life.

  121. watchful Oct 22nd 2013

    Inspired, do you believe that all mankind will inherit eternal life? Will all receive a glorified body? Paul said that not everyone who even runs in the race will win the prize, much less those who have not entered the race at all. Because there are many who sadly are running by their own rules and not His. They do not acknowledge that He is God in truth.

    He has even chosen the foolish things and the base things. Maybe do a word search on choose and chosen, but even beyond that the bible is chock full of examples of God choosing. Abel over Cain, Noah from among his generation, Abraham from among his people, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Israel over the nations, tribe of Levi over the other tribes, stones for the temple are chosen, selected……….and on and on, His choosing just never stops. Even within the individual believer He is choosing our fruitful branches and cutting off our unfruitful branches. Oh yes, He is picky alright and who are we pots to argue with the Potter? He does all things well, very well! He judges righteously! I bow down to Him!

    Only once we acknowledge His supreme right to do as He CHOOSES without any shadow of accusing Him of wrongdoing are we really on the right foundation to begin to ask Him for the things on our hearts. We must first agree with His judgments before we can ask Him for His mercy, whether for ourselves or for others. We musn’t treat the wounds of the people as though they are not serious. We acknowledge sin as being exceedingly sinful in the eyes of a HOLY God and that He has every right to judge it as He chooses. Oh the arrogant presumption of the man with the one talent to call the Lord God Almighty harsh and unjust, no He is neither harsh nor unjust, He is RIGHT, always!

    Mat 13:41

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Mat 13:42

    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 13:43

    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Mat 25:46

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  122. watchful Oct 22nd 2013

    No, I stand corrected. It is too small a thing to say that He has the *right* to judge, more than that, it’s that He is WORTHY, utterly utterly WORTHY!

  123. Inspired Oct 22nd 2013

    Watchful,
    The two that you give attention to above, in Cain and Able etc.. They are there for the contrast of the flesh to the Spirit. Sure, flesh will not inherit eternal life, and only Spirit will and given a new body. The understanding I have as I read Paul, he seems not to be worried about salvation, and speaks as if God has this covered. However rewards, and losing them, that is another story.
    I am sure that if I lose any prize, I would be disappointed and so gnash teeth etc..
    Tell me Watchful, have you any children? if more than one, does one exemplify a better behavior and honor to their mother? Is this child more favored as a result? Nevertheless, you still provide for the one whom I will term substandard, don’t you?
    So when God says there is one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of ALL, I believe it. I believe that he is not a respecter of persons, however I also believe he does honor purposes over persons. Have you ever got a job that someone else was more qualified to have yet it was His Favor that secured it for you? I am sure those who were more qualified were whispering and gnashing their teeth concerning this. Blessings to you.

  124. Darren Sargent Oct 22nd 2013

    Paul, not worried about salvation?! Gulp!

    Inspired, I can’t let that one stand. That statement pains me,

    Understanding does not humble us; our ignorance does, that we are brute beasts before Him: seeing God as He indeed is should be the cause of our ruin, that we are men and women of unlean lips even when we prophesy perfectly as Isaiah did.

    Before the Cross was empty is was full of a battered carcass. We are required to live it a thousand times a day and to die to self. Death must come first before the Resurrection Life is lived: first for Jesus and then for us. We fill up His sufferings in that which is lacking.

    Salvation is needed; salvation is required.

    Because Man is Sin (as we have never heard of sinless man who has come from inside of time), salvation is required. He(Paul) is not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, and that man must believe. Universalism is a sterile theological cul-de-sac that will produce a stillborn. It defuses the ‘Go!’ switch because salvation is not required as it has been supplied already. It creates a well-manicured Ivory Tower of self-obsession about my eternal rewards, it has no truck with abandonement and the beattitudes. Accumulation of knowledge purporting to be truth is all that is left.

    Paul was obsessed about salvation and bringing everyone into the redemption of Christ: he even wished himself accursed for the sake of his nation!

    You have spoken of Y’shua.

    He is the God that saves. Blessed be His name.

  125. Inspired Oct 23rd 2013

    Darren,
    Scriptures speak of people perishing for lack of knowledge, and Yehsua says that the pharisees withheld
    the key of knowledge. Perhaps it would be better if we all knew each other, for salvation is important and we all know this, yet some lose rewards etc. Ignorance does not humble us, in fact it does make us brute beasts before Him, when the goal is that one would be transformed by the renewing of the mind. The renewing of the mind does not come about by being ignorant, but when one understands. The beatitudes, are self emptying, not that we can just decide to do this without God. When I read Paul I seen where all are conciliated but not all are reconciled. In other words God offers and man wants his own way to attain salvation. Yes I write Yeshua as this is what He bid me to call Him. In fact we are to stand and see Yeshua/salvation of God.
    Is. wrote woe to this one, and woe to that one until he SEEN God high and lifted up, then it was woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips living among a people of unclean lips. He got an understanding and was humbled from his ignorance. Yeshua even stopped the sons of thunder who wanted fire to come down from heaven and told them that they know not what manner of spirit they were. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands. John 6:39 says and this is Gods will, that I should not lose even one of those given me and I should raise them up….
    Personally I am not offended if He raises all. And yes the gospel should be preached to all creation, not just people. Nothing lives or grows without the life of God.
    You speak of Paul wishing himself accursed, and yet Moses also said if her sin was not forgiven then to take his name out of the book of life. Pretty bold statements. They must have known something. In fact I do not think I have ever heard a preacher speak forgive them or take my name out of the book of life, or that they would become accursed. Wonder why this is? Seems Moses and Paul knew something we did not. My only confidence is that what He started He will finish.

  126. watchful Oct 23rd 2013

    But they are not His children Inspired, unless He adopts them. So many scriptures that indicate only the righteous will inherit eternal life. There are rewards, but also punishments. Who has seen Me has seen the Father………..Jesus DROVE OUT of His Temple (kingdom) that which offended and practised iniquity, He did it at the beginning and the end of His earthly ministry.

    Mat 25:46

    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Jhn 3:36

    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    Rev 22:12-15

    “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

    I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. ”

    What I see and have experienced myself also, is that often healing is needed by the turning over of some roots of false beliefs and fears etc that were received in childhood, before we can know Him more as He is. Knowledge and revelation etc alone is not enough but we are to change in reality, more and more into His image, otherwise our perspective remains as a toddler sees their daddy but not yet knowing the serious nature of His job as a great Judge and King. Going from glory to glory, it is not just the first glory and stop there, there is more available for us…..praying for you, Inspired, He is faithful. Again I say we are not the measure of truth, HE is.

    Many have given their lives and suffered dreadfully so that others could receive salvation. If it were not such a serious thing, their suffering makes no sense, including Paul’s.

  127. watchful Oct 23rd 2013

    … pardon me, I meant to say that say that we are not the measure of righteousness.

  128. Inspired Oct 23rd 2013

    Watchful,
    Can you or I move or breathe or have a being by our self, our own life? Can we? Scripture says that God is life. Can we have life without God? Col.1:27 says the secret is Christ lives in you. According to scripture only God has life and has given life to Christ. So none have their own life, In fact the wages of sin is death. From the dust you came and the dust you will return. Unless He come and change our vile bodies into glorious ones.
    Yes He is faithful, that is the point. He alone is righteous.

  129. Barry Schmidt Oct 23rd 2013

    for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:13, 14 NASB)
    Most believers fail to put these two verses together. They often quote the sons verse separately . But the word “for” at the beginning of the sons verse reveals Romans 8:14 AND 15 MUST go together – the sons are those who put to death the misdeeds of the body by the the Spirit- this is why you don’t see fruit – because either they are not sons or because the sons aren’t acting like sons
    This context SAYS that the WAY the sons are being led is by putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit
    Most charismatics make the leading if the Spirit about ministry or life guidance NOT leading them to mortifying the flesh
    The Spirit was mortifying the flesh in me last night over some sexual impurity- and I was caught in the middle of a great battle between the Spirit and my flesh – the Spirit won. But I felt helpless to participate except to keep looking towards Him to pull me through while a great force in my body pulled me towards indulgence in sin – I heard the word of The Lord come to my mind – exhorting me towards sexual purity – but when these exhortations came I felt the power of sin rise up to life in my flesh when those words came to do the very opposite-
    I remembered how when the words of the Bible exhorting away from sin came in time of temptation – how sin seemed to flare up like gasoline on flames when these words came-
    This makes me think that even the commands and exhortations of the New Covenant become like gas on the flesh’s fire -unless the Spirit takes over to crush and mortifying the flesh in me
    Any command of God- old or New Testament – apart from the Spirits direct and personal intervention and help will increase the propensity to sin in us
    If the Spirit doesn’t LEAD the sons- with this help – and intervention over sin- maybe THEY ARE NOT SONS!!!
    Sonship is personal holiness and victory over sin.
    So two ideas to consider here:
    1. Sonship and the Spirits leading is MOSTLY evidenced by mortification of the flesh and sin in the flesh
    2. Any attempt to obey Bible commands and exhortations (OLD and NEW Testament ) in self effort -apart from the Spirits direct and personal intervention – will end in greater sin and disobedience

  130. Inspired Oct 23rd 2013

    Barry,

    2. Any attempt to obey Bible commands and exhortations (OLD and NEW Testament ) in self effort -apart from the Spirits direct and personal intervention – will end in greater sin and disobedience

    Bingo!

    There are sons who are teknon and those who are huios, one is immature and the other is mature.

    This is My Son in whom I am well pleased– this is ten words followed by hear ye Him.

  131. Barry Schmidt Oct 23rd 2013

    Inspired- Every uses the word “son” in Romans 8 is the Greek word “Huio”

    If one is not a Huio he is NOT A CHILD OF GOD .

    Why do I say this?
    Because the passage clearly says 4 things essential to belonging to God and being a child of God:
    1. The Huios are the only ones who have received the Spirit of adoption (v15)
    2. the Huios are the only ones who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them and who belong to God (v10)
    3. The Huios are the only ones who are led by the Spirit ad who are putting to death the misdeeds of the flesh (v13-15)

    Clearly this passage isn’t saying anything about a immature class of sons described as Technon- this passage is talking about children of God in a generic sense (Huio).

    To assume that THIER are some of Gods children who are not led by the Spirit to live in personal holiness is incorrect:

    Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:2, 3, 7, 8, 10 NASB)

    No holiness NO SONSHIP period!!!

  132. Barry Schmidt Oct 23rd 2013

    This is why all these preachers that are living in self glory, self indulgence, greed, pride and entitlement ARE FALSE SONS!!!

    They are not merely true ministers of Christ who are immature and a little off base.

    Jesus said, “you shall know then by their fruit.”
    Where’s the fruit of Jesus Spirit in them?
    The works of the flesh are OBVIOUS!

    If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29 NASB)

  133. Inspired Oct 23rd 2013

    Barry,
    Thank you for taking the time to look up technos and huios.
    Still again the scriptures say that all die in Adam and all will be made alive in Christ.
    1Cor. 15:23, but each in their own order…..

    I did this practicing of righteousness and carried my Linus blanket everywhere I went. But when God offered the Comforter, I exchanged the Linus blanket for the Comforter. He clothes me in His righteousness. It is he that does the works in me and not me. He said I will bless and keep you. Who will? He will.
    He will keep me from lying, stealing, adultery and murder etc.
    Is it not when that His righteousness comes in that all the dross falls off?

  134. Darren Sargent Oct 23rd 2013

    Inspired,

    I will back-track a bit if I may:

    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” Hos 4:6

    The passage this is found in clearly states this people contend with the priest; this people have rejected knowledge and forgotten the law. True, the prophet stumbles by night and the people by day, only because God wants no reproof or correction – He wants to deliver them into the consequence of their sin. It is clearly in this instance the fault of the people: the Land has forsaken God. Earlier in chapter 4 He refers to His case against the inhabitants of the land – not pharisee, nor the priest. Let us trace the destruction of this knowledge in this passage: no faithfulness(to God), no kindness(to each other), swearing, deception, murder, stealing, adultery, violence and bloodshed. The knowledge of God that is given to His people is deliberately thrown away and lost by His people. The knowledge of God is slowly lost in this increasingly depraved cycle of sin – there is not a pharisee in sight. If we are not faithful and kind we lose the knowledge of God; if we do not DO His word we will never understand His word – understanding slips through our fingers. Doing out of faith, because He says, begets the true knowledge of God. If any man would see if my word is true he must do them!

    And Hosea was speaking of a people who kept her feasts at the appointed time, her new moons and sabbaths, her festal assemblies(2:11). She celebrated wildly and it was a time of religious zeal and revival. They honestly thought they were worshipping God, being obedient and doing right. There was one problem: the God they thought they were worshipping as God, the God they thought who had brought them out of Egypt, they referred to as . . . Baal (2:16-17). She thought her blessings came from Baal but it was from the Lord (2:8-9): her new grain and new wine and the oil. Is this not the source of the loss of the knowledge of God? – not the easy scapegoat of the pharisee or slack priest but the the fatal exchange of Ishi for Baali, the misapprehension of God Himself as He actually is – not as we want Him to be. They had not been faithful. Is not the knowledge of God simply the knowledge of God as He actually is and this only being revealed and maintained in the person who is faithful in obedience.

    Isaiah’s prophecies from chapter 1 to chapter 5 are prefectly God. He spoke as God for he saw as God – this is possible in a man only with God. Then Isaiah meets Him who he speaks on behalf of: I am ignorant of my ignorance until God reveals Himself – once he does I UNDERSTAND my relationship to Him and my ignorance is revealed only because He has revealed Himself. My mind rushes back through my life and I see the sin-scarred ignorance. Woe is me – I am undone. But the undoing of my soul only comes by the revelation of His Holiness. So why am I humbled? My position is made clear by God – not that I understand God but that He understands me and opens Himself up. I am appalled at myself without God and with God while I await my adoption as a son. The Cross is full and the Cross is empty. I carry around in me the death of Christ so that the life of Christ may be revealed. I purify myself even as I am pure.

    The goal is not my reward or retaining my reward; the goal is not the renewing of my mind or my victory over sin but simply the Glory of God or nothing at all. I do not live: there is no me to preserve, no me to get self-conscious about. There is nothing but His life in me. This can only happen after sacrifice. Romans 12 is clear: offer your bodies as living sacrifices; it has nothing to do with understanding – only dying!

    I am convinced Moses and Paul did know something but it is an open secret – not something mystical. They were both being Christ: Christ was cursed to redeem us. The words of Paul and Moses are a priest’s cry of intercession to stand in the gap. Wonderful evidence that their lives were a sweet smelling sacrifice.

  135. Darren Sargent Oct 23rd 2013

    It is possible to be dead while you live. We must not confuse physical life with life in Christ. The marks of death – true death – scar the whole of humanity: death while we live, whether decay of the body or the depravity of heart and soul resulting in disease and other abnormalities of heart and soul. This must not be confused with life in Christ; the second creation must not be confused with the first.

    If we are consciously obedient to Christ then His life in us will result in unconscious righteousness – we will not be aware of it. Where will we end and He begin? Only He will know.

    All Sons are disciplined and chastised – not some, ALL! We will not achieve perfection while we dwell in this earthly tent – even though all provision for victory over sin has been provided. Discipline is so that we share in His righteousness.

    Holiness is evidence of salvation.
    Righteousness is imputed only through the life of Christ.
    Christ fulfilled the Law and so will we, for the Law is within our hearts.

    The Bride says Come Lord Jesus!

  136. Inspired Oct 24th 2013

    Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. This kind of reminds me of the parable of the workers who all received the same amount though some bore the heat of the day while others came near the end of the day. In the end, He answers them with, don’t I have a right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
    Also the church at Corinth. had members who were saved but acted like Sodom and Gomorrah.

  137. Barry Schmidt Oct 24th 2013

    Yes inspired there is always grace for UNDERCOMING ! There is grace for forgiveness for being defeated by the lusts of the flesh. There is acceptance based upon grace alone even for those defeated by sin.

    BUT GOD HAS GRACE TO OVERCOME SIN AND GRACE TO MORTIFYING THE MISDEEDS OF THE FLESH!
    God is looking for OVERCOMERS IN THIS HOUR NOT MERELY UNDERCOMERS!!!

    The sons of God are led by the Spirit to OVERCOME NOT MERELY TO LIVE AS UNDERCOMERS!!!

  138. watchful Oct 24th 2013

    {{ 2. Any attempt to obey Bible commands and exhortations (OLD and NEW Testament ) in self effort -apart from the Spirits direct and personal intervention – will end in greater sin and disobedience }}

    Excuse me, but that almost sounds a little too pious……Jesus said even if you have to cut off your hand or pluck out your eyes it would be better than to sin.

    I wouldn’t want to confuse the matter especially for new believers….seems that Jesus was saying that by whatever means you can, don’t sin. Self-effort is better than no effort, and give thanks to the Lord anyway. As someone said we don’t always know where He begins and we end or vice versa. If we offer to Him whatever strength we have to fight the good fight, He is able to bless it and make it sufficient, just like the little boy’s loaves and fishes. If anyone is having difficulty, cry out to Him and He will hear you.

  139. Barry Schmidt Oct 24th 2013

    Where are the OVERCOMERS in this hour?
    Where are those who know they have no self effort power over sin but who refuse to accept anything but TOTAL VICTORY OVER THE WORLD AND THE FKESH AND THE DEVIL IN THIS HOUR??
    God is glorified by forgiving accepting grace BUT WHO IS WILLING TO GLORIFY GOD BY OVERCOMING IN THIS HOUR.

    “the eyes of the LORD look to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those of those whose hearts are fully His”

  140. watchful Oct 24th 2013

    As far as jealousy goes, Inspired, yes I guess the self-righteous would be jealous, but that’s not at all what I’m talking about. I’m just talking about growing up, maturing, and facing the reality of what the Father does for a ‘living’ that we didn’t understand when we were ‘little’. Turns out our Father is a famous and powerful Judge and King, who sends some to prison, some to the gallows and to others He grants pardons. Our relationship with Him changes as we get “older”, we learn to not just love Him but to respect Him as well. Let Him get to the root. Otherwise we preach an emasculated gospel, a toothless tiger. The fact is that God doesn’t have to save anybody, He could have just snuffed out the entire human race anytime after the Fall and still have been RIGHTEOUS and HOLY. The marvellous, amazing, wonderful, good news is that He will save any at all! And I am so grateful! What is man that He is mindful of us? Nothing, we are nothing at all. But HE is all in all.

  141. Inspired Oct 24th 2013

    Barry,
    I have agreed with you through much of what you have written, so you do not have to use caps on me.
    It is Christ in a person that does this overcoming, and not we ourselves.
    Paul said, it was not he that lived but Christ in him.

    Christ is the overcomer. Christ is the one who subdues,
    but churches think that once a person is saved that everyone should automatically be walking as a mature child of God. If I keep my focus on Christ, then I do not stumble, but if I look at my flesh and what I have to do, then I have just took my focus off Christ.
    Unless God builds the house it is built in vain.
    Scripture says He will keep us in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee. Matter of fact if there were no sin, we would not need grace at all, so I would have to count it as a precious commodity.

  142. Barry Schmidt Oct 24th 2013

    Inspired- thanks ! I personally use caps not as a shouting or to communicate that someone isn’t listening but rather when I feel the compelling of the Spirit on something – it is difficult to communicate with written words – but again my caps aren’t a reflection on those I am writing to but rather to an attempt to convey a strong prophetic anointing carrying me along in the moment.

    I will try to be more aware of how caps might be misinterpreted. I am learning to trust God with the results of what I sense He is communicating in me. Thanks for the kind reminder tho!

  143. Inspired Oct 24th 2013

    Watchful,
    You just wrote that He is all and in all.
    This is my point. He is unfolding His finished work within
    all of us and yes the gospel needs to be preached to all of creation, as the earth groans for it.

  144. Inspired Oct 24th 2013

    Barry,
    Your caps don’t bother me– it was kind of a joke.
    I use it around here and tell folk, don’t make me use caps on you! So was thinking about that when I made the statement. You do not have to be cautious of it seriously.

  145. Inspired Oct 24th 2013

    Watchful,
    Excuse me, but that almost sounds a little too pious……Jesus said even if you have to cut off your hand or pluck out your eyes it would be better than to sin.

    me,
    This is an idiom– and it means to cut it out, or stop it.
    if you are about to spew venom then you “bite your tongue”

    Self effort is better than no effort?? the whole point is to depend on Him. Who is the one coming out of the wilderness leaning upon their true love/or leaning not to their own understanding but His.

  146. ValleyAnt Oct 24th 2013

    Daniel, amen. You wrote in part: “the only solution is as Christ said to ‘remember from where we have fallen’, to feel God’s grief and sorrow over our idolatry and wicked hearts… the root problem is leaving our first love, and the corrective steps are remembering from where we have fallen…” From the time of the Fall, we fell much farther than we may care to know. It’s God’s will and intention that we return (be restored) not just in our works but in our hearts– restored to ‘the works we did at the very first’. Amen.

    Too many comments here to respond to, but many amens. I’ll try to begin commenting early next article so I don’t have to play catch up.

    It’s good to have articles, of course, but since the main/root truth is “God is Love”, the main/root lie would naturally then be, “God is not Love nor loving nor does He act out of love”. This main lie was the root/first of satan’s lies against Adam and Eve and succeeded in felling them. It continues to fell some and sow doubt in others. But major lies or minor lies, as long as we love the truth, we may temporarily be deceived but will not be outwitted by anything that isn’t true– anything that is not “of good report” (ie. anything that God doesn’t approve). Amen. Goodnight everyone, and be safe this Halloween season.

  147. Johan Laubser Oct 24th 2013

    ValleyAnt, “be safe this Halloween season”?

  148. ValleyAnt Oct 24th 2013

    Johan, yes. During certain times of the year, certain seasons, certain days, etc., demonic activity is higher around the world. Some of these times include Halloween, Christmas, Easter, Friday the 13ths, weekends, full and new moons, solstices, etc. The demonic is more active and is stronger at these times because occultists are especially at work during these times doing rituals and such. Scientists still don’t know what to make of the fact that during full moons, certain anomalies and strange things happen and more frequently, things that happen much less often on non-full moon nights. One of these this is that more people end up in jails (more lawless behavior) consistently on full moons, a consistency not observed on any other day or period of time but which is consistent with full moons. These scientists have never considered the supernatural: if people call up the demonic and send them out to afflict people consistently on the same day (full moons), then these kinds of anomalies, especially relating to lawlessness, are possible. But the Bible says that those who use worldly wisdom (learning) to shield themselves (who rely on it for answers, solutions, safety, etc.), thinking themselves wise, become fools, unable to make sense of what doesn’t fit into the safe confines of their own wisdom/beliefs even when it’s right before them.

    I’ve seen many Christians harassed or ‘troubled by the seasons’ (by the enemy due to the occult) but who don’t know what’s happening. Just yesterday, a friend of mine sought to reach out to someone else who is escaping an occult family; suddenly, sickness and frustration fell on my friend and his family, and he told me that he couldn’t keep his appointment with the person. He has no frame(s) to view what is happening and cannot see that the enemy is harassing or detaining him in order to keep him from helping the other person to be free from the occult (which will first be related to the occultists trying to keep the person in bondage and then to this season which certainly doesn’t stymie occult influence); I have to let the Lord show him, because it takes His revelation to pierce through unseeing eyes. So, yes, I hope everyone is safe this Halloween season. Occultists will be at their work this season more than your average week to week. I hope that’s helpful.

  149. In the NT it shows many people burning and destroying any occult items they were involved in before Christ. The problem today is most Christians keep their occult items because they are valuable but they do not realize spirits stay with these items.

    All occult items in ones home needs to be destroyed this closes any open doors to the enemy.

    Another thing watching occult driven movies, horror films relating to Halloween is an open door to the occult world. Many suffer oppression because of this involvement.

    I read a news article where the head of the satanic church Anton LeVay in California said; they laugh at Christians who participate in Halloween as this is the devils day as every one knows it to be.

    To stop this oppression a person needs to renounce it, destroy the occult items and then repent of this sin. The occult in the OT was considered sin.

    Acts 19:18-20
    18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.
    20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

    It’s very important to remove all occult items from your home.

    GaryB