“COOL” CHRISTIANITY- Entertained to Death?? – A. Strom

In 1993, the well-known evangelical preacher John MacArthur put out a book entitled ‘Ashamed of the Gospel’ (subtitled, “When the church becomes like the world”). Obviously, because it was written by a known Conservative, many modern leaders may have found it easy to bypass this book’s insights and warnings. But when I read it, I found it an incisive and devastating expose of much that is now occurring in Christendom…

In it, MacArthur writes: “Traditional methodology – most noticably
preaching – is being discarded or downplayed in favor of newer means,
such as drama, dance, comedy, variety, side-show histrionics,
pop-psychology, and other entertainment forms… In the past half-decade,
some of America’s largest evangelical churches have employed worldly
gimmicks like slapstick, vaudeville, wrestling exhibitions and even
mock striptease to spice up their Sunday meetings. No brand of horseplay,
it seems, is too outrageous to be brought into the sanctuary. Burlesque
is fast becoming the liturgy of the pragmatic church.”

In many churches today, it is seemingly no longer ‘positive’ enough
(in the modern TV-marketing sense of the word) to emphasise the
cross, deep repentance, holiness, “death to self” and all the other
meaty elements of basic Christianity which the New Testament
emphasises again and again. And so we change everything (even
the very essence of the gospel itself) to fit the spirit of the age in
which we live.

“People don’t want to hear about all that negative ‘sin’ stuff any
more,” we reason. “We’d better preach things that win them over
in a positive, modern way.” Thus, the epidemic of preachers who
seem to sound more and more like TV commercials every week:
“Come to Jesus, He will make you happy, He will fulfill the desires
of your heart, He will comfort you, He will satisfy you, etc, etc.”

There is almost no difference here to the sentiments expressed in
your average toothpaste commercial, but the most alarming thing
of all is that many preachers seemingly wouldn’t care even if there
was. They cannot see what an enormous effect this ‘marketing’
approach is having on the very nature and content of the gospel
they preach, and thus on the lives of the Christians all around them.
Their attitude often seems to be:- ‘Whatever brings them in the
door is OK by me.’ This is the very attitude that has led to what
I believe is a crisis of colossal proportions amongst today’s
Christian youth.

As I have said, today much of this error is flooding into the church
under the guise of “relevance”. In the name of ‘relevance’ we are
rushing around desperately trying to make our music “cool” and
our leadership style “cool” and our gospel “cool” and our youth
events “cool”, etc, etc,- all in an effort to attract the world on it’s
own terms. None of this is of God at all. It relies almost entirely
on the ‘arm of the flesh’. It is really nothing less than worldliness
and compromise in a new and very subtle (yet deadly) form.

Instead of “holier than thou”, it seems like we are now expected
to be “cooler than thou”. Our whole effort is aimed at proving to
the world that Christianity is just as cool, just as much shallow
fun, just as much of a party, as the world has to offer. And so,
to prove all this, we have to entertain and entertain and entertain.
We feel we have to become just like the world, in order to impress
the world on it’s own terms. Thus, we now need to be seen in
fashionable (or better- still, ‘hip’ or alternative) clothes. And our
youth events become an excuse for a “party”. And our
presentations become entertaining multi-media extravaganzas.
All in an effort to equal or “out-cool” the world. (Which is why
you now see ‘moshing’ heads, slam-dancing and stage-diving at
our youth concerts – matching the world on it’s own mindless,
hedonistic terms. “Lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God”).
Like I said, cool pride, worldliness and rebellion – all in the name
of “relevance”. JUST LIKE the WORLD in EVERY SENSE. Does
this sound like God to you?

Speaking of the huge Christian Greenbelt Festival held regularly
in England, musician John Allen stated: “It seems undeniable that
most of the audience is there simply to enjoy the music, not to
think hard about anything; and there is a real danger of the
emergence of the ‘Greenbelt Christian’, the semi-converted,
shallowly committed teenager whose Christianity means little
more than that he enjoys festival-going.” What a tremendously
significant statement! And the tragic fact is, that such ‘Greenbelt
Christians’ are now found in their multiplied thousands right around
the globe. For it is not just the large festivals that have succumbed
to this spirit of entertainment. We now find this ‘entertain-them-at-
all-costs’ approach everywhere, from local church youth groups
right up to large regional gatherings. This spirit has pervaded
everything, particularly those areas in the church that are connected
with young people. In fact, it has become increasingly rare to find
gatherings of Christian youth now in which these attitudes do not
prevail.

What we are actually doing by trying to make our Christianity more
worldly, is placing it at a great disadvantage. We are stripping it
of the things that historically have made the Christian faith so
appealing and powerful. I am also convinced that more than any-
thing else, today’s jaded youth will respond to a CHALLENGE. In
fact, I am convinced that the greater the challenge, the more interest
and the greater level of discipleship there will be. What today’s
“amused-to-death” young people need desperately is a cause
worth fighting and dying for – a cause that calls them to deny
themselves and to live a life of radical obedience to God. Jesus
Christ is that cause. And if we don’t provide such a challenge to
today’s jaded generation, then don’t be surprised if some much
darker cause arises to steal their allegiance. In many ways,
today’s youth, raised for much of their lives in a spiritual and moral
vacuum, are truly ripe for the picking. And the devil knows this
very well. If we are not willing to provide the youth with a cause
worth dying for, then he surely will.

There has always been a ‘social’ aspect to the Western church
that has attracted a certain ‘club’ membership. But this is different.
This is an epidemic, and it is being encouraged right from the
very top down. Many pastors and youth leaders have concluded
that it is best to give the young people what they seem to want,
just so they can get the numbers in the door. And the problem
is growing worse, not better. Unless something drastic is done,
all I can personally see on the horizon is years and years of
such continual shallowness that we end up with churches full
of people who desire little else but ‘ear-tickling’, entertainment
and crowd-pleasing (rather than God-pleasing) “worship”. In actual
fact, this is already a total reality on such a massive scale in
today’s Western church, that it begs the question of whether true,
historic Christianity can even survive much longer without being
utterly swamped by the prevailing hedonism and selfishness.
Despite what we are being told, things really are that serious.
True, historic Christianity is in terrible danger on many fronts.
Unless something dramatic occurs, I see only years of
increasing lukewarmness, shallowness and compromise ahead.

Surely the lament of Jesus found in Mt 15:8 is just as applicable
today as it was then: “This people draw nigh to me with their
mouth and honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from
me.” Where are those amongst today’s youth ministries who will
stand up and be counted for the Lord and His truth in our day?

-From the book, “Entertaining Ourselves to Death?” by Andrew Strom.

Posted in Articles by Andrew on February 12th, 2013 at 9:37 am.

188 comments

188 Replies

  1. Richard Savage Feb 12th 2013

    And people wonder why so very many Christians no longer want to a part of the established and commercial church?

  2. Very interesting article and I agree with the basic premise. But while I have come to see why the Word tells us so few will survive what is coming, I also have faith in God. He answers prayers and one prayer I have long prayed is for the Australian people to get discernment. I am starting to see that. I am also the spokesperson for a group of researchers trying to recover our civil and political rights in this country. Over the years I have had countless phone calls and email contacts from unknown people who turn out to be believers. And they have felt compelled to make contact. I can make the clear statement that He is drawing his people together and strengthening them. And I believe that is true, because that is the God we believe in. Once we dealt with Him on a personal basis, then we wanted Him to give us law, then man took over the law and the law began destroying man, now man is turning from the law. Will man turn back to God? Probably not the ones who wanted law in the first place. Do you and I resign ourselves to the result or do we find out own path to His side and stick to it like glue? That is each man’s personal dilemma.

  3. Good article.

    I recall certain moments of my life when I’m in a conversation with people and the conversations directions are turning to which congregation we love to be in. Sadly, they are turning to congregations which have the ‘right’ music and the cool stage.
    I know from experiance that you don’t need all of that when God is there. I recall another occation when I visited a congregation which was just in a room in another congregation and when i visited them they were worshipping. The moment I walked into the room, there was a presence of the Lord Jesus I never ever had experianced before. The room was full of Gods holiness, the holiness of God started to stick to my face and I also experianced that it was like some kind of rain that was falling from heaven. Amazing.
    The 5-7 others that were with me experianced it also.

    So, all you need is the Lord of Hosts.

    Sincerely,
    Jason.

  4. Markus Feb 12th 2013

    True.

  5. There is much to be said for this, but I would take issue with the blanket inference that those who attend (and indeed organise) the UK Greenbelt Festival are not there to “think hard about anything”. The seminar list for the festival is one of the most wide ranging and engaged in terms of “thinking hard” about real issues of the interface between faith the contemporary world.

  6. I agree with this article there is a need for simply the Church to be the Church. Modern churches that “entertain” do not have the anointing of the Lord which will give anyone ears to hear the truth.

  7. Carolyn Feb 12th 2013

    We must consider WHY these measures are being taken. It is because the youth are unaffected by what they are finding in the formerly traditional church: Tradition without substance or meaning and leadership without a firm foundation themselves. How many in leadership close themselves up in their prayer closets daily–and stay until they KNOW they’ve touched and been touched by the Lord? How many seek Him as Daddy, Husband, Brother, Friend, Savior? How many of us seek Him that intently? Who has pondered deeply what the church would look like if all we had was the Bible and no knowledge of the western traditions of the church?

    Maybe this is why church leadership becomes extreme in its effort to attract youth–the fire is nothing more than a failing smolder and we have forgotten what it takes to fan it into a hungry flame!

    ‘Lord, consume Your people in the Fire of your Holy Spirit! Remind us that we belong to You!’

  8. Gordon Feb 12th 2013

    Most Christians are “Nuts”???

    You may rest assured we Christians know the answer, “Yes, Jesus is Lord.” …BUT do you know the question? ……….the ‘nuts’ below I’m referring the insanity in the likeness of Satan. Why? Because they are not sober in spirit; they are certainly not led of God, not like the Few men and women Walking in the Spirit. Know the Q? Most Christian have a speak easy in their Churches “You are in/I’m in ..by the prayer of salvation.” “Yes, you repeated after me. You are in!”

    ANY DRUNK, Drunk Evil Spirits can say, “‘Yes,’ Officer.” “Officer, I only had a couple.” “Officer, you know how it is.” “I’ll never, ever do it again.” “I’ve only hit my wife once, when she made me …that time she harassed me.” “You don’t know my wife.” “Sure I go to church. You think I’m crazy.” “Preacher, did you do the Sinner’s Prayer ….with Tom before he passed?” “Oh, you bet Suzzy. You’ll see Tom in heaven. Just be sure to keep on tithing and everything will be alright.” “Can I help you with your pain?” “Well, that is not what I meant. The church doesn’t give bailouts.”

    I’m glad each one of you were spared the acts, spared the troubles that led me to a Ball Bat Salvation. BUT, why do most have a ‘nice faith package gift of salvation’ BUT don’t have the knowledge of “who they are”. Can they actually destroy, tare down the Strongholds of Satan in their own lives? Can they minister to others with the authority and power God’s gives to His own? Do you ever get tired of going to church with the tares? Some preachers do get tired of ****preaching to the tares.

    ****this thought came to me from a Deacon in Oklahoma that knows that the Old Time Religion is not OLD. It is the New Time Religion that is getting old; old of the Old Man of Satan. The thought ‘preaching to the tares turned into laughter to keep from crying. However, I know women that cries out, “Please God, no tares in the group.” She want a Special Forces Detachment of Angles to watch the door, the front, the back door, the windows, the cracks here and there ….”On Guard” as she works. Watch especially the cracks in the flooring here in ILLinois.

    Ever hear a group talk about the Holy Spirit …..How great this and that ….they just keep on talking as they sink in the sinking sand. The Truth: If some preachers were promoted to “a real position of God”, they would die quickly. God wouldn’t put up with it. The tares love the entitlements.

    Most are still in captivity DRUNK on Lies, the Deceiving in doing, saying, living out what’s right that is wrong, and wrong that is right and thrown to the side as the World Turns. Many wear a sense of insecurity …..got to go to church so as to have their Pride stroked. Have you ever wrestled with the Q?, “Who do others say I am?” Then, “Who do you say I am.”

    Yes, many know the answer ….like cheating on a test. And if you truly know the Answer, you will know who you are. We are nothing – deflated before God and then in Christ we overcome all things against us …marked by God grace. Christians that have love in their hearts, do not go looking for a preaching job. They don’t audition (try out). They don’t have to pass a test. Most are looking for a promotion to a Higher Level of Devils. Most preachers in the try out mode just love to show their Pride, knowing the answer BUT they really don’t know the Q?

    Matt 16:17-19
    “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. And I will:
    • give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and
    • whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and
    • whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    My hope is that you know who you are, a warrior, you have the keys to the kingdom, and you are in fact a Believer that overcomes all obstacles that try to pull you down; that includes, sicknesses, diseases, lack of prosperity of all and more than you need. The “more” is the giving more in Truth, not the Witch Craft of the thieves in the Churches-As-Usual; leaders and members, and just as I am.

    Repent …….Know the Cost: If we do we may know a loneliness more so than you’ve know before. Why? Others opinions, what they think of God your only Father, King and Counselor makes a difference to you. Serving God is not about us. We are looking for United Standing on the promises assembly, friendship, brotherhood, team mate to work, to stand stronger (just two, better three) before God, back-to-back a brother, a sister, a wife, a husband. Boldness is not the Prideful act, not of the Witch Crafter tender. “Good Job” says the Witch of the bewitched.

    I really Big difference, a Life and Death difference, between that and God, saying to us, “Good and faithful servant.” God does manipulate, control with “Good Job Dude?”

    —– Forwarded Message —–
    From: Gordon Neil
    To: To All Seeking Lampoil Studies
    Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 9:59 AM

    Corban ……….let’s go the Smokies. I’m already there for a moment. Here is an example of the Churches-As-Usual speaking in their hearts tongues: “Come on down here, Yes on and let’s have some fun ….Entertain us!” I personally think most Christians are ‘nuts’ …insane like Satan. Why? Because they are not sober in spirit; they are certainly lead of God, men and women Walking in the Spirit. The majority of Christians is all about ‘pop’; pop music, pop Christianity, pop goes, pop sells, pop money and fun. This is the end for the entertainers, the Christians party goers. Satan pops theirs lunch bag by God’s Judgment.

    This is a Test: Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end.

    The answer is ____________. The Q?is Do you know who you are? Have you grad from Basic Training so as to be armed of God?

  9. Dr. Bob Eckert Feb 12th 2013

    Right, and well-said without an attitude of unrighteous judgment. I get around the churches a bit and think that you have described a common condition. However, in those churches as I testify and teach the Bible I notice that there are hearts and minds responsive to “new” ideas — those of holiness, taking up our crosses daily and following Jesus, self-sacrifice — things that bring joy, strength and real Life. The fields are ripe within church organizations.

  10. Mel Grams Feb 12th 2013

    John Mac Arthur has succinctly diagnosed the malady that is prevalent in much of today’s church. In talking with my pastor recently I was encouraged to hear him expressing a deep longing for a return to the TRUE Gospel message of REPENTANCE and FOLLOWING JESUS. I believed that there is a growing hunger in the hearts of many for a truly Christ centered lifestyle in both the church and the individual lives. God grant it soon. God bless you in your unique calling.

  11. Camalunghi Feb 12th 2013

    Thankyou once again for a thought/prayer provoking article. For along time I have been trying to put my finger on a number of issues regarding modern trends in todays churches, but the words “Relevent” “Cool” sum up the present trend.

  12. While I agree with Mr. McArthur’s points and others comments as well I believe we need a little more in the way of solutions vs. problems. The young people today as well as “older” people are searching not only for a true sense of belonging, but a purpose for being here.

    I believe that when we are able to show people how much WE CARE, not how much we know then those who are searching will come to us with a desire to receive what we have to offer them – JESUS.

    John 14:11-14 believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    Those who come to the Lord because they understand THE HEART of Jesus’ Ministry will seek to be disciple so that they may walk after the Spirit and not the flesh:
    •His purpose – He came to destroy the works of the devil
    •His willingly becoming the sacrificial sin offering for all mankind

    Then they will understand the revelation that His ministry (The Ministry of Reconciliation) is now their ministry as well, it will then fill them with:
    •THEIR DIVINE PURPOSE
    •A TRUE COMMITMENT BIRTH OUT OF AGAPE LOVE and
    •IMPOWERMENT TO CARRY IT TO ALL THE WORLD.

  13. Anna M. Feb 12th 2013

    Very good and sound article. Thanks for making this available to us, and reminding us that Jesus wouldn’t have ‘fit-in’ either. There was no question of whether he “walked with God”, for he went against the popular opinion of his day. The lack of the fear of God permeates our society, and the church as well. When we fear something, we become ‘like it’ least we be overpowered by it. Andrew, thankyou!

    `The Fear of Man, video/dvd by the late, Del Fehsenfeld Jr., is an excellent resource! https://www.lifeaction.org/store/product/the-fear-of-man-dvd/

  14. Danny Richardson Feb 12th 2013

    Andrew, This is more like it. Instead of you attacking things you know nothing about like the gun issue in America or the theology of the Tea-Party movement you have taken on those who have cheapened the power of holiness and you have regainded my support. Stick to the ministry of the Gospel and the Truth will take care of itself. You went after the fallacies of the current prophetic movement and showed no quarter to those who were turning the ministry of the Holy Spirit into a sham but then when others exposed your ignorance to certain issues that are strickly American you squealed like a stuck pig. Remain strong in your work to mark those who rely upon man’s techniques to supplant the ever powerful ministry of preaching the Word alone.

  15. Anna M. Feb 12th 2013

    An intensely practical message that cuts to the core of our being. Revivalist and founder of Life Action Ministries Del Fehsenfeld Jr. exposes the deadly consequences of seeking approval from anyone other than God. This message was given in 1989 just months before his death from a brain tumor.

    Fear of Man -audio message by the late, Del Fehsenfeld Jr.
    http://http1.christianvideochannel.com/cvc/lifeaction/audio/infuse_podcast/ip-2009-e24.mp3

  16. Well written, Andrew!!!

  17. ValleyAnt Feb 12th 2013

    Gordon, you said, “The Old Time Religion is not OLD. It is the New Time Religion that is getting old.” Amen.

    When I hear parents complain about youth/teens, when I see adults (especially men) intimidated by the youth, when I see compromise for the sake of youth, people wringing their hands who see youth as Goliath and giants that keep them from entering God’s inheritance, I don’t know whether to scream or sob, maybe sprinkle some dust on my head and shop for some sack cloth, employ some fasting. Our vain societies say it’s all about youth, strength, beauty, confidence; therefore those who feel they don’t fit these traits go into hiding and in fear let the youth run the family, the schools, the churches, the state, the pulse of nations.

    “Have you not heard,” Isaiah asked. The harvest will gather in multitudes (and I mean multitudes) of youth, but it will come through those who are not afraid, who know God. “Have you not heard?” The harvest always has waited for laborers and for those who will go.

    The things that intimidate us of course don’t intimidate God. Everywhere I go, people are dead (some look spritely and alive; others look like zombies); the situation is pretty much lost, a very of bones that are very dry, the most pathetic thing I have ever seen– the dead walking. But when David’s brother rebuked him for wanting to be part of the battle, David responded, “Is there not a cause?” In the past when things weren’t so bad, Christians could play hookie and not go out to war or harvest and feel no conviction for it; but now there is a cause, and every pair of hands will be required. The more hopeless or intimidating or dead things are, the more present and ready for action God is. If this wasn’t true, He couldn’t condemn anyone for “an evil heart of unbelief”. Why let things die and dry up before acting? Because then faith must be genuine as it is the only thing left: when God took Ezekiel into the valley of dry bones and made sure that he saw the utter hopelessness of the situation, then He sought out the only thing through which He works: faith. “Son of man, can these bones live?”

    Revival? Revive us first, or revival will go right downhill. Frightened and compromising men must be strengthened, value and worth imparted to intimidated women. God must and will impart newness and vigor to those who are afraid to take their place as concerns the youth. (And the youth, in any rebellion, are really waiting for adults to take their rightful places and lead!) He will impart this newness and youth to those who will say yes to the call even if they from incapable. “Have you not known? Have you not heard… the Lord neither faints nor is weary… He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths [are destined to faint] and be weary, and young men will utterly fall in exhaustion. But those who [depend on] the Lord will renew their strength; they will mount up with wings like eagles. They will run and but grow weary; they will walk and not faint” (Isa. 40). God will impart the Grace needed, to those who are willing, with newness and vigor for the task.

  18. RIGHT ON! This has been going on for many years. Back in 1968, I was elected to a leadership position in a large denominational church in Denver, CO. In that position, I was able to observe practically everything that went on, both up front, and behind the scenes. During that time, i kept asking myself, “Where is God in all this.” At the end of a year in thnat position, I came to the conclusion that I was a member of the largest “non-drinking” country club in Denver. The majjor objective was membership — all was done to increase the number in attendance. I also learned that, in a congregation of over 500, 60% of the income came from two wealthy families. Besides them, there were few tithers. Most gave anywhere from $1.00 to $5.00 per week.Those two families subtly demanded that everything be done according to their wishes. Outwardly, they were very pious and proper, but in actuallity (I now know in retrospect) they were a “5th column” within the ranks with a goal of destroying any fervor for Jesus or God. Their main emphasis (again in retrospect) was diverting attention away from the Bible. I believe that is the fundamental reason behind the on-going trend during the past 50 years. NO ONE LOOKS TO THE BIBLE AS THE AUTHORITY FOR CHRISTIAN ACTIONS! THE OPINIONS OF MEN, AND NOT THE AUTHORITY OF GOD PREVAILS THROUGHOUT CHURCHANITY!

  19. Hisservant rich Feb 12th 2013

    NO COMPROMISE!!!!!

    Lu 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Lu 14:27 “And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
    Lu 14:28 “For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it
    Lu 14:29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
    Lu 14:30 “saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
    Lu 14:31 “Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
    Lu 14:32 “Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
    Lu 14:33 “So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

  20. DonaldJamesParker Feb 12th 2013

    I agree with much of this – but I must make a stand when drama is mentioned as something bad. David Wilkerson also made statements that put drama in a bad light in the church environment. Jesus used parables when he spoke. There is nothing that precludes a drama from getting across points that are made in a sermon. In fact, those points will probably be ingested, digested, and retained better than if presented in a stand up sermon. There is nothing in the Bible that specifies that in the assembling of the saints, which we should not forgo, that some man must stand up in front of the group and orate. A sermon without God’s anointing can be just as worldly as a drama. Jesus said to make disciples of all men. He didn’t say to preach them to death. And thus skits or movies which bring the gospel are more than just entertainment.

  21. The fear of God and the love of God. The fear of God is for the young, the children. “Come little children listen to me and I will teach you the fear of the Lord” Ps 34:11. Children obey out of fear. Your love for them may be plainly stated but their capacity to return love is not there yet. God’s love for them is plainly stated in the cross but the constraint of love will have to mature in them as they grow up but fear will keep them on the right track until they do. Love comes later in a child’s life as a child grows, but fear comes first.

    Love without discipline is spoiling the child and may ruin them. Most of God’s kids in America are terribly spoiled. They were never taught to fear. They were actually taught not to fear. The threat of hell as a consequence of sin needs to be made real to young minds without sparing because it is TRUE!!!

    As far as God is concerned sin is a crime and hell is a prison and if you don’t want to go there you must learn the rules of this life He died to give us.

    11Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
    12Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good?
    13Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit.
    14Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.
    15 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous And His ears are open to their cry.
    16The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth. Ps 34:11-16

  22. Allison Feb 12th 2013

    So glad to see that this subject is addressed. I have witnessed first hand what the Andrew has written about.

    One Christmas eve instead of uplifting Jesus with respect the curtain was pulled back and there was a rock and roll band along with singers singing the Christmas Carols with a modern rock beat. We just walked out.

    Another church, another Christmas there was a rock and roll kiddy pageant. When I complained to the person
    who had invited me, the retort was that I hadn’t been in a church for a while. Yes that was true. Recently I went to hear a guest evangelist at another church. When the meeting started, the band cranked up the sound. It was unbelievable. The lady next to me told me that most people bought ear plugs so they could stand it.

    All of this reminds me of the Elijah and the Prophets of Baal. The Prophets of Baal thought they would be heard with all their noise making.

    One other example — a friend who lives in Corona, California told me about a church in her neighborhood that was auctioning off a Harley Davidson motorcycle to entice the people to come to church. We need a hearty spirit of repentance and truth to blow through this land. Lord have mercy!

  23. Barry Schmidt Feb 12th 2013

    but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, (1 Corinthians 1:23 NASB)

    As long as the church is preaching ANYTHING but Christ and Him crucified she has failed in her calling and mission. It matters not whether she replaces the preaching of gimmicks and devices with the preaching of sin, the preaching of holiness or service or sacrifice or power or gifts or worship or obedience or revival or the preaching of any OTHER good thing! Preaching ANYTHING BUT CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED IS DISOBEDIENCE AND REBELLION!

    When will we finally get that preaching any THING will not save, will not deliver and will not withstand the coming fires of judgement? When will we finally abandon all other means, methods, ideas, doctrines, truths FOR THE ONE AND ONLY MESSAGE GOD HAS SANCTIONED- namely JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED???

    For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB)

    More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; (Philippians 3:8-10 NASB)

    God give us men in our generation who are like this man!

  24. A tearful Amen. Praying that God will have mercy and visit His decrepit church in this decaying culture. Revive us, Oh Lord! And send us Your revivalists!

    May You raise up fearless, fiery, faithful servants who are both Heaven-sent & streetwise. Dedicated to Your Word & dependent on Your Spirit– that You might give them holy, powerful & creative ways to bring Your Gospel to this culture!

    When You move, You always bring Reformation in hearts & Renaissance in the arts. Jesus, send us revivalist laborers! Revivalist pastors, prophets & evangelists! Revivalist youth, mens, womens & childrens ministers! Revivalist musicians, artists, writers, actors, craftsmen, (even dancers?) Revived saints into Your Church & into every walk of life!

    (May Andrew’s book, & others, be a part of such an outpouring)

    BTW, God’s been igniting my prayer times with a new Bible that just come out: The Revival Study Bible (NKJV). Contains the history of revivals! (in the margin notes & on a CD)

  25. I sure needed this for many reasons the most obvious is the timing of this article – I so did need it – to me it is reflective of the cry for the true men and women of God – to rise in their call to be the John the Baptist Ministers!

    I am so afraid but the fear is the grevious loss of so many for entertaining rather than developing the real FEAR – FEAR of GOD!

    The youth is the target of this article but for me at this time I see the adults in an equally wicket place and so reflect the history of world religions always compromising truth for the slime of evil to enter into that pure truth.

    I have seen the use of theatrics and wow it is so impactiful like any art but it is later remembered as a great skit or play but the message does little to nothing for purity that is Our Father and Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    The world events are prophetically proclaiming for -Spiritual John the Baptist Ministers to rise to this time but in a blink of time it is gone! The opportunity to turn the great ship(the church)- without a rudder- to come under the evil one – who now is coming out of the shadows- that time of the evil one is very nearly fully upon us!

    Oh how I need this article to be encouraged to know the faithful must follow Christ Jesus and not at all have any tolerance of that which is trash to enter into our full devotion to Our Father!

    I am calling on the end time John The Baptist to rise – be fearless!

    Blessings!

    Robert H. Evans
    Abbotsford, BC
    Canada

  26. Tilman Feb 12th 2013

    I agree fully to this article. You are so right with your comment: “…it has become increasingly rare to find gatherings of Christian youth now in which these attitudes do not prevail.” I am glad not to be a teenager in these days, because it’s really hard to get along in faith today without solid biblical foundation. How should people become aware that they are seduced in every area of their life – even in church – if they don’t have a sound and biblical teaching? It took me decades to realize the differences between the teaching of Derek Prince and other less biblical teachers. How then should young people in the Western world realize today that they are deceived?

    We have so many books and videos today, but it takes years to get an understanding for biblical facts and issues. Jesus started his ministry when he was thirty and his whole life beforehand he studied the bible. How then should Christians understand the word and the deception in the world if they don’t take time to study the bible? Why should people repent if they don’t see the need to repent? The entertainment-addicted Christianity today has no time anymore and therefore looses the understanding for turning around towards Jesus. This is no game, this is serious business. Meanwhile the whole repentance process is based on contemporary teachings and loses the fact that repentance is based on insight.

    So the equation is simple: It doesn’t work. This is not hard to understand when you see there is no difference in how young people use social networks and media as compared with the rest of the world. This way you cannot get an understanding for the need to separate yourself from the world. But this world is getting worse day by day! On my opinion the deception will become so worse that in the near future you can’t even stay in touch with compromised Christians because your ability to renounce will suffer.

  27. While I agree with much/most of what Andrew wrote, I am concerned also because we DO have a problem engaging young people and old alike in this fast-paced, high-tech world in which we live.

    I would love to see a follow-up article/discussion on ways to preach the heart of the Gospel message with power and anointing in an atmosphere where both young and old are drawn in. Only then will we have tapped into the power of the Gospel at work in the congregation. If it is in a backdrop of high-tech visuals or in a nursing home, it is the power of the Gospel that changes lives, not the venue where it is being presented. To me, the problem is the fact that the pure Gospel is not being preached regardless of the setting. The watered down preaching we hear in churches won’t change lives, it only reproduces more watered-down “CINO’s” (Christians in name only).

    My thought is based on the fact that Jesus went to where the sinners were. He put Himself in their presence, in their worldview, in their culture WITHOUT becoming like them. It was His words that drew them in coupled with the immeasurable love and compassion He had for all people.

    I know this may sound a bit contradictory, but while we need to engage the lost at a place familiar and comfortable to them, it needs to be done with the power of God manifest in their presence. Jesus was successful because He had sincere compassion and love for people everywhere he went. It was His unassuming way of engaging the sinners that caught them off guard, often turning the skeptic (and worse) into an engaged audience willing to give Him an ear to hear. It was the pure love He exuded that caused barriers to the Gospel to crumble and hearts to open to hear the Truth. It was the PURE word of the Lord that were spoken through His lips that exposed sin and brought conviction to the heart sincerely seeking Truth.

    So, what I see, not just in the US, but worldwide, is the lack of compassion … not in a humanitarian sense, but in a spiritual sense. On the mission fields, there are humanitarian organizations everywhere. Many claim to be “Christian” but fail to preach the pure Gospel. They show compassion but lack power. Also, pastors, church leaders, evangelists, etc., too often fail to have such compassion on the lost. Tragically, so often their emphasis is on building their own mini-kingdoms rather than on building the Kingdom of God that marches in sync as a mighty army with Christ Jesus as the Captain!

    All that to say this … if you are wanting to reach youth, I see no problem with a high-tech setting as long as the power of the Gospel isn’t watered down or distracted by the surroundings. The message should stand alone as eternal Truth whether with or without the stage. If the message is inadequate without the fireworks, it will be inadequate with them. And, the same goes with reaching the older generation. If the message to the seniors is playing on their emotions in order to get a response, it won’t stand the test of being eternally profitable. However, if the message is Pure and the truth of the Gospel is preached with anointing and power, it will be effective to eternally impact lives of everyone in hearing range.

    It’s the power of the Gospel. It’s walking in true compassion and the love of God. It’s presenting undiluted Truth … that’s what will make the difference in our modern world, whether in the US, Australia, the remote tribal villages in India, the military bases in Pakistan, the underground churches, etc.

    We’ve got to get back to the Gospel like Jesus preached it. The whole Gospel. The complete Truth. From Genesis to Revelation. Preaching what Jesus preached. Understanding the power of Truth.

    Oh my … I could go on and on!

    Lord, forgive us all for compromising Your Truth in order that we might find success based on our own standards and not Yours. Help us to realign ourselves with Your Word; anoint us with power and boldness and wisdom. Teach us to love with Your love–total and complete and undiscriminating. Help us to speak Your Word in any setting, with any backdrop, for any audience so YOU might be glorified by surrendered lives ready to march in sync with Christ Jesus, Captain of the Mighty Army! In Jesus’ name, amen!

  28. Allison Feb 12th 2013

    Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?
    by Charles Haddon Spurgeon
    1834-1892 (but it could as well be today)

    An evil is in the professed camp of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked
    like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them.

    From speaking out as the Puritans did, the church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them
    under the plea of reaching the masses.

    My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? “Go ye into all the world
    and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15) That is clear enough So it would have been if He had added, “and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel.” No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to him.

    Then again, “He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers … for the work of the ministry” (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is
    silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll.

    Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles.

    What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt” (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar
    candy—something the world will spit out not swallow. He was in awful earnestness.

    Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, “Run after these people, Peter, and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow.” Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over
    them, but never sought to amuse them.

    In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of this gospel of amusement! Their message is, “Come
    out, keep out…!” Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence
    in the gospel and employed no other weapon.

    After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did not pray, “Lord grant unto thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these
    people how happy we are.”

    If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6).

    That is the only difference! Lord, clear the church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her, and bring us back to the Bible.

    Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic
    entertainment has been God’s link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today’s ministry is believing scholarship
    joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire.

    Reference: http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm

  29. Are you familiar with the carrot and the stick approach of motivation? It is reward and punishment. This is God’s system. Reward put before you and punishment behind you. This is what the Bible’s message is. Why can’t we “stick” with what the Bible says? Why have we abandoned this message of warning and reward to our children? It’s our false doctrines that have undermined God’s message to His people. We have replaced the conditional requirement of christian living to enter heaven with the unconditional lie that leads to hell. God loves us unconditionally but His acceptance of us is conditional. The natural world can teach us some of this.

    Can’t we see how life is? Life is conditional. Everything. Young people understand this!! They live this way. Take school for instance, if you don’t do the work, you will fail. If you don’t behave, you will be expelled. If you don’t do what the coach says, you are off the team. Participation involves conditions, if you don’t meet the conditions and you don’t get to participate. It’s simple.

    Family life is the same way, misbehave and be punished, behave and be rewarded. Your job is a conditional arrangement, you have to show up on time and do the work or you won’t have a job. You get fired.

    Everything in life is this way, conditions must be met or consequences will ensue. God made it this way. This is what life in this world can confirm to us about God’s kingdom and how it operates. God’s love for you is unconditional but acceptance into God’s kingdom is conditional. We have to learn to obey here or we won’t be accepted when judgment time comes.

    We are courting disaster with our children. We are selling our kids short and abandoning Biblical principle as well when we adopt some other message but the clear message of scripture that you must learn to obey God!

    Children obey your parents. This is the foremost parental duty, to teach life’s first lesson to your children and is a precursor to the message that they must learn to obey God. Children must learn to obey their parents at home and to learn to obey God at church.

    This is the biblical pattern, there is no other.

    He(an overseer) must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?) 1Tim 3:4-5

  30. I have given this a good deal of thought…..I am very aware of the “coolness” addiction of the modern church and agree completely that the younger generation is looking for a real challenge, a call to holiness and sacrifice….BUT as I have thought about it, in my own life and conversion, God used a young couple that looked a lot like us at the time. They didn’t look outwardly weird. Their clothes were “normal” for the time. They were attractive (now that kind of thing doesn’t matter to me, but then it really did) That allowed me to want to be friends with them. We spent time with them and saw their lives, and when the gospel was presented, we were dramatically converted, and have gone on with God since that time almost forty years ago. I’d have to say that they looked “cool” to us, but they didn’t live “cool”. Anything but….just something to think about.

    A good word, Andrew!

  31. I agree. I can’t stand that stuff that is substituted for preaching and I do beleive in warning against sin and telling people the truth as the bible teaches, not adding or subtracting anything. I personally prefer verse by verse teaching to preaching but that is just me, to substitute entertainment is not what Christ told us to do. There is a place for encouragement and comfort though. When we get so negative that people lose hope and people think its impossible to find God and that God hates them, that is the other extreme to be concerned about. Yes, we still have those kind even though they are rare compared to the rise of the motivational and entertainment speakers, (I refuse to call them preachers.). Thanks for sharing that.

  32. Rodney Feb 12th 2013

    Well reported – you are back on the right track, my friend.

  33. I heard a minister make a statement once, which said:

    “What you win them with is what you have to keep them with.”

    In other words if people are drawn into the church through entertainment then this is what they will expect on a regular basis.

    This is a very good article here.

  34. Andrew Feb 12th 2013

    Yes – the “Entertainment” mindset is the issue, Gary.

    I do not mind “modern” technology or worship music or drama, so long as it is truly “worshipful” and Christ-centered.

    But the heart and attitude behind everything is crucial.

    If it is “entertainment” then the true heart has already been lost.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  35. antipas4yahshua Feb 12th 2013

    Lol.. Christian disciples were anything but cool.
    “Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.”
    The apostles and the original church were considered the lowest chaste of the day (Paul was a jailbird, John the Baptist was a camel clothing bug eating hertic, and Jesus was homeless/penniless rebel).

    The whole “cool” thing is ad-naseaum considering the bloody footprints before us as a way to walk and be separate from the world (HOLY to G_D).

    I seriously doubt if the evangelical church would recognize a modern lowly prophet or apostle ( ie Sundar Singh comes to mind).

    Because many Christians have not come of worldly entertainment ( this is a appetite) it has mixed in with current “churchanity” . Entertainment has become a subsitution for the Holy Spirit and the word of truth. The result is dilution / impotence which has no real instruction on how to work out ones salvation with fear and trembling.

    As a side note, I am thankful modern Christian music ( ie Delerious etc…) but is by no means a spiritual “main meal”. In addition, many of these “spirits” are imitating the Holy Spirit.

    Many of those in the pulpit were were never called of G_D to begin with.
    The consequences of their teachings (or lack thereof) that were taught which people believed and behaved will be known.

  36. Pastor Keith Feb 12th 2013

    Entertainment is being priority over REPENTANCE, SALVATION, and the GOSPEL MESSAGE. It has become similar with modern day translations of the bible.
    Please consider my address of the issue.

    “As every man hath received the gift, even so, minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as THE ORACLES OF GOD; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth; that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever, Amen.” 1 Peter 4: 10-11

    Does it matter what a Bible teacher teaches? Does it really matter what a preacher preaches? To listen to many today, it’s easy to come to the conclusion that a preacher / teacher can say what they like. They can give their own interpretation and their own thoughts on what God has declared in His word. BUT HOLD ON A MOMENT – What does God say on this?

    “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” 1 Peter 1:20

    “If any man speak, let him speak as THE ORACLES OF GOD” 1 Peter 4:11

    This means that when a Bible teacher or a preacher preaches, he should be speaking the WORDS OF GOD. The words he speaks should be what God has given Him and should reflect God’s own heart. Can you see what an awesome responsibility it is to declare God’s Word? This is not a new problem, but it is more and more rife today.

    “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran; I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in My counsel, and had caused my people to hear My words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?” Jeremiah 23:21-23

    God’s precious word is the ONLY standard that we have and need in all matters of doctrine and practise. God has preserved His precious word down through the years and we have a thoroughly safe and true record in the King James Bible today. It has served us well for over 400 years, and was, until recent years, considered sufficient for all doctrinal teaching. I am not one on those who say that the KJV is the only Bible, but I maintain that it is a thoroughly reliable and safe translation.

    The devil confused the available record of God’s word today. Now we have hundreds of fancy Bible translations, many of which leave verses out and provide footnotes explaining why the text doesn’t mean what it plainly says! Christendom has been duped into accepting confusion in the place of TRUTH. This is part of the final great apostasy of these end times. How can a preacher preach the very ORACLES OF GOD when all the text books (Bibles) are saying different things! This is the Devil’s work! There are very few translations that I would personally trust, knowing that I am accountable to God for the words that I proclaim. One day I will stand before Him and will have to give an account. I have no desire to stand ashamed before Him. (1 John 2:28)

    “Forever O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven” Psalm 119:89

    We need to get very choosy in what translations we trust. When we have and use a good reliable translation, we can indeed speak THE ORACLES OF GOD because God has revealed Himself and His will in His precious word.

    I don’t normally recommend books in my ministry, but I will on this occasion because this one is available to read without charge online. Chapter one of THE GREAT DREAM deals with this subject more thoroughly than I have here, and I can recommend it to you. The Chapter is entitled “THE DIMINISHING GROUND OF THE ABSOLUTE” and can be accessed and read at http://www.apostasynow.com/tgd/index.html

    So, all you preachers and teachers out there, ditch your faulty and unsafe translations and have confidence in the TRUE WORD OF GOD. Start speaking, THE ORACLES OF GOD before men and the true God of heaven will bless you for it.

    “Holding fast the faithful word, as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake” Titus 1:9-11

  37. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it, as long as so called Christianity keeps whoring with pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter, rather than God’s ordained holidays, it opens the doors to every kind of unclean thing. Included is not only all the worldly garbage that this article and the cited book mentions but also the perverted training of those who “lead” the church in schools that are more concerned with getting Accreditation from the worlds standpoint of scholarship than with God’s ways of training leaders. Christianity has a long history of being led by men who are not filled with the Spirit, excepting those times of revival when God is doing a special work somewhere, which results in training based around the Bible rather than the mentoring men who are already filled with the Holy Spirit and actually called by the Spirit to leadership. As far as I’m concerned Christianity is a man centered religion that gives lip service to God and until that changes it will continue to marginalize itself. The fact that it is so much like the world in so many ways, yet claiming to be different and better, causes the world to disrespect it and hate it more and more thus making the coming persecution easier for the world to step into since the world easily sees that Christianity is a man centered religion!

  38. pazmayim Feb 12th 2013

    I served in a ‘seeker oriented’ non-denominational church for 5 years. Our pastor did NOT avoid the term sin and did not avoid ‘difficult topics from the Bible’. Repentance and reliance on the LORD was his passion.
    He was vulnerable about sharing his own past problems and gifted in presenting truth. Why is it that so many Christians can only find fault with other believers rather than focus upon reaching the lost?

  39. pazmayim, the answer to your question is that Christianity is SO far from it’s first century roots in so many ways that not to talk about the problem is a far greater sin. Ignoring the problems is not the path to a cure.

  40. Thanks for speaking out. We cannot feed the spirit by entertaining the soul. True Christianity really has no comparisons with the world and its ways. Why did Jesus teach us to take up our cross and follow Him? Is it not because the ways of the world have no acceptance in the Kingdom of God?
    Perhaps we should consider this Scripture more: “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (see 1 John 2:15-17).

  41. Christian journalist Feb 12th 2013

    It was the Jesus People that witnessed to me on the streets that caught my eye’s attention. They were not afraid to preach the Gospel message, sing songs in praise of the Lord Jesus, give testimonies how the Lord changed their lives, and prayed for people who needed prayer. All done outside the confides of a building commonly known as a church or an organised stage managed so called christian conference .
    They were young people who became servants of Christ and unafraid to be obedient to the Commission which the Lord Jesus gave to His followers.
    The christian Greenbelt Festival started off as a tool for evangelism but soon lost its way and direction when entertainment became a must for everybody to include seminars which had nothing to do with Christ. New Age thought became acceptable as with speakers such as Peter Tatchell, a leading proponent of homosexuality and gay marraige (for the modern christian church).
    Look at what is happening at the 2013 Greenbelt Festival
    http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/festival/2013/
    Kindly look at the speakers and celebrity list once again Peter Tatchell. and TV star and presenter Frank Skinner. Tony Campolo is another one. See this link about him on christian homosexuality
    http://www.atruechurch.info/tonycampolo.html
    See also this link below
    http://www.letusreason.org/popteac27.htm
    One secular group playing is called Bellowhead.
    So Andrew thank you once again for another topic to be discussed. For so many are being hoodwinked in going to events which put a prefix first such as “christian” which is leading people, and especially folk who call themselves christians, into deception.

  42. Christian journalist Feb 12th 2013

    It was the Jesus People that witnessed to me on the streets that caught my eye’s attention. They were not afraid to preach the Gospel message, sing songs in praise of the Lord Jesus, give testimonies how the Lord changed their lives, and prayed for people who needed prayer. All done outside the confides of a building commonly known as a church or an organised stage managed so called christian conference .
    They were young people who became servants of Christ and unafraid to be obedient to the Commission which the Lord Jesus gave to His followers.
    The christian Greenbelt Festival started off as a tool for evangelism but soon lost its way and direction when entertainment became a must for everybody to include seminars which had nothing to do with Christ. New Age thought became acceptable as with speakers such as Peter Tatchell, a leading proponent of homosexuality and gay marraige (for the modern christian church).
    Look at what is happening at the 2013 Greenbelt Festival
    http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/festival/2013/
    Kindly look at the speakers and celebrity list once again Peter Tatchell. and TV star and presenter Frank Skinner. Tony Campolo is another one. See this link about him on christian homosexuality
    http://www.atruechurch.info/tonycampolo.html
    One secular group playing is called Bellowhead.
    So Andrew thank you once again for another topic to be discussed. For so many are being hoodwinked in going to events which put a prefix first such as “christian” which is leading people, and especially folk who call themselves christians, into deception.

  43. antipas4yahshua Feb 12th 2013

    @pazmayim – what scriptures do you have for “reaching the lost” ?
    Exactly how does one “reach the lost”?
    Exactly what do you mean by “reaching the lost”?
    What are they “lost from” ?
    How did John the Baptist, Christ, and the apostles “reach the lost” ?

    John, Christ, and the apostles preached the coming of G_DS kingdom to rule the earth, judgement, and put a end to sin “repentance”, baptism, remission (forgiveness & removal ) of sin (Acts 2:38 & 5:, and the gift of the Holy Spirit to lead to a ever increasing de-facto righteous life.

    Heb 6
    For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesnt know how to do what is right.
    Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

    The angels rejoice over one who REPENTS (ie turn to righteousness) not “saving a soul”. Deliverance / salvation is a opportunity and a process – it takes endurance, imitating Christ, denying oneself /world/ passions of the flesh.
    Narrow is the road that leads to life and there are few that find it….

    Shalom

  44. Spring Harvest, an christian festival in the UK, was once dominated by leading restorationists and dominionists such as Gerald Coates and Terry Virgo.
    Rev Steve Chalke caused this split in 2007
    see:- http://www.christiantoday.co.uk/article/uccf.keswick.end.spring.harvest.word.alive.partnership/10506.htm
    Another well known speaker at Spring Harvest is Nicky Gumble, a proponent of the infamous Toronto Blessing said to be part of the Great Revival. He is of course is the instigator of the Alpha Course now being used by the Roman Catholic Church, the biggest cult in the world.
    See this link
    http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/loved/entry/christianity_as_a/
    Entertainment is what you pay for by those who preach anything but the Good News, repentance, and salvation.

  45. This was a tough one … I hear the crusty old man saying that anything with emotions is of the devil. Then I hear the greasy young man calling everything fair game. The point seemingly missing though is “power”. The gospel w/o power is dead letter.

    So, I think we can test the Spirit (as we are required to do) by the power present. What kind of power. The dedication of the temple by Solomon was in song and instrumental music result in so much power that the glory cloud knocked all 120 priests off their feet so that they couldn’t stand. Sounds like the moderrn day term (being lost in the spirit) to me. At Pentecost 120 were born of the Spirit and appeared as drunken men. Hey … I like it! and there is absolutely nothing unscriptural about it, and in fact the scriptures clearly indicate that music and dancing before the Lord are pleasing to Him and bring heaven to earth. That’s what Jesus said to pray for right? So we really can’t get our shorts in a knot if folks are knocked off their feet, crawling and laughing as a drunk does, can we? Just enjoy it! It does feel great, and may very well be the “times of refreshing” referred to in the bible.

    But we do have to be careful. There is “wild fire”. If tongues is the language of the angels then I suspect the devil knows how to imitate it. (He’s a fallen angel after all). The best test seems to be that given by Jesus to John the Baptist’s disciples; the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, etc. That’s certainly the proof in the pudding. If tthat’s going on, then don’t condemn it. If you do, then you are being anti-Christ.

  46. Grapevine Celebration is another so called christian festival for followers of restorationism.
    Rock n Roll is the music which plays a part in its worship.
    Geofrey Birtell, who is part of the Global Day of Prayer – a one off yearly event in London, is one of New Life Church worship leaders.
    Have a look at this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it3KoNxbj28
    It has developed into another new name called the Big Event now considered to be its upmodern name.
    Non christians and well as christians have to pay to get in
    See this link
    http://one-event.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/ONE-2013-BROCHURE1.pdf
    Makes you wonder where the modern christian church is now going in the 21st century?
    Entertainment as a costly price!

  47. Are there some “entertainment centers” called churches in the U.S? of course, but to throw the baby out with the bath water here is a mistake. I worship and serve at what I suppose would be coined a “seeker friendly” church. I’m actually thankful to be in a place with my family that I know I can invite the lost to join us there and they will see and hear things by way of music, style of dress and presentation that may not “look like” your typical evangelical church. BUT, the Gospel comes through loud and clear in everything they do….from the music, the videos, the preaching/teaching and most important, souls are being born again on a regular basis. The Apostle Paul said,” I have become all things to all people so that I might win some”…in like manner, there are those who are called in this day and age to create and inhabit spiritual environments that attract those who A) have never walked into a church in their lives for fear of all the horror stories that some have generated, or B) have walked through the front door and then right out the back of many legalistic, stuffy and BORING churches where they find NO LIFE because the majority of the attenders look and act like they had pickle juice for breakfast….you know, kind of like the pharisees probably looked? Do you think for a second that watching Jesus cast out demons or heal the sick was boring?? Hearing him expound on the truths he unpacked?? No way!…, those people were glued to their seats over what was going on in front of them because they had never seen or heard anything like it in their lives. Jesus didn’t do these miracles for entertainment sake, but it was wowing to the people none the less…they were amazed. He did it because of his love, his compassion and his desire to see people whole…no matter what he had to do to catch their attention…then gain their hearts. . For those who have become disillusioned by the traditional church (and there are thousands upon thousands out there), these type churches you speak of offer a non threatening yet “challenging” environment where people can feel welcome and safe, not forced, but invited to give God another chance to win their hearts over. Please don’t assume that all churches that use bands, video and casually dressed leaders are all going to hell in a handbasket…it’s simply not true. If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being offered through whatever means of presentation…isn’t that all that matters? Why condemn certain styles of churches just because it’s different than what you prefer and think is “biblical”? I am weekly challenged and changed in this “seeker friendly” church and I’ve been following Christ for most of my life. I am honored to sit in a church that is yes, entertaining at times, but at the end of the day, the over arching take away is Christ and Him crucified and the present and eternal difference He can make in a life. I also find it refreshing that “seekers” are coming through the doors…because if their seeking Him and most of them are, then they will find Him…it’s His promise.

  48. Matthew 16:17-18

    “Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

    The church is NOT a building and the everlasting words of Jesus are still true! The gates of Hell will not prevail against HIS CHURCH! And when gross darkness covers this earth and the people the glory of God will shine on the bride of Christ the true remnant that He has reserved for Himself and the good news of the kingdom of God will be preached in all the world!

    Isaiah 60:1-2

    “Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.”

  49. We minister to many young Christians one on one. There is a True Hunger for Truth. There are not many who are Giving and Preaching The Whole TRUTH!

    The Gates of Hell are NOT Prevailing against The TRUE CHURCH!!!!!!! Let Us all be about the Fathers Work!

    Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwgH4t2dpe8

    Shalom
    No Turning Back!

  50. Neville Krieg Feb 13th 2013

    I agree, its high time for the whole Gospel without compromise, inside and outside of the church. Jesus needs no dressing up, His power to change lives that have been convicted of sin and its dreadful consequence without Christ is surely enough.

  51. Marilyn Crow Feb 13th 2013

    Good article Andrew, exposing the errors of the false church. And that will only get worse as it is not of God as we mostly agree.

    How wonderful then to realise this & look away to what Jesus is doing. And to have the assurance that He is building His `called out ones,` moving quietly in people`s lives, most of which we will never see this side of glory.

    But this I know & see that the Lord Jesus Christ guides me by His Holy Spirit & as I work with my contacts we are helping each other to disciple those around us, teaching them life issues, current affairs in the light of God`s word & discerning truth & error. Then we are helping them to reach out to their contacts.

    All this quietly in our daily lives, no fan fare, & no middle man between God & us.

    I firmly believe that our Lord is doing a great work in our day as He has done for 2000 years, maturing the Body of Christ to His glory.

    “Lord open our eyes to see what YOU are doing.”

  52. ValleyAnt Feb 13th 2013

    David John Eden, I’m with you. Lord, You are the only One, and You are the only thing for the youth that is real. Indisputably, You are “the real thing”. Restore the knowledge of You to Your People, and be magnified on earth again. Amen.

  53. parody Of Our Modern Church Service

  54. Water down preaching , water down bibles, 400 plus versions of the Bible, HUH and going to the GREEK? HUH. Contemporary worship is sensual. HUH?

  55. Andrew, I am really concerned that a man who denounces gifts of the spirit, speaking in tongues, miracles as all being not for our time, also a man who has been highly critical of Billy Graham and a hyper calvanist should be mentioned on the site as an authority. No doubt he ( McArthur ) is a respected man out there amongst evangelicals however, he has been critical openly about some really anointed men of God, had his contract on TV terminated after confusing doctrine and some questions about his true motives and background. Many of his so called expose’s are no more than attempt to convert people to a religious and critical denounciation of the freedom we now share.

  56. WILLIAM Feb 13th 2013

    I do agree with you and John McAuthur. But I find it interesting that you would post this blog concidering your resent You Tube video of halleluyah. In this blog, you’re depicting the very thing that your video is, worldly christianity.

  57. John MacArthur is an excellent student of the Bible. If you go to his website, http://www.gty.org (Grace To You), you can download his studies on the New Testament. He does in-depth, chapter by chapter, verse by verse studies of the Bible.

    Andrew, this is the type of work you do a very excellent job with. However, when you talk of political issues (like guns or obama-care), your work is not as excellent. I think this is the sort of stuff you need to focus on. :-)

  58. Excellent word Andrew and a good reminder for me to sit down and contemplate on Matt 7:21-28 and Matt 28:18-20.
    Having done so I would encourage others to have a real good ‘think’ about what the Lord is saying here re His Word being the ‘foundation’. He is still ‘with us’ (through the Holy Spirit) and He is not a ‘sleeping’ partner – He (the Word) has not stopped building and will continue with salvation,discipleship,baptism,repentance, spiritual maturity etc etc – Grace, Mercy and Sacrifice.
    Led to read Gal 2:17-21 and Gal 3:1-5 as well.

  59. Andrew Feb 13th 2013

    Jim – I don’t talk about guns or Obama-care.

    My efforts are aimed at trying to get Christians to STOP talking about those things – and focus on what is REALLY important from a Christian perspective.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  60. Andrew Feb 13th 2013

    But perhaps you are right that I need to stop warning America of things.

    No more warnings.

    A good thought.

    -Andrew

  61. I have seen both sides of this issue. I’m not sure it is that cut an dry. What I mean is church’s either don’t know how to get young people interested in coming to church or they go the other way and turn it into a concert. I get what the concert pastoral staff is trying to do. Fish for people buy reaching those who seem to only be able to handle spiritual milk…but I think the real problem is that many people do not seek the Lord for vision.

    I have to go to God first and seek his insight and he will show me the way…what we have though is churches hiring pastors from outside there own body…they preach for 4-7 years and get fired and it all starts over again. My previous church is vision-less and they don’t even have a clue that they are. Seek the lord, have persons in your church that have the prophetic gift given a voice. God speaks to those who will listen. I hope churches will come to a realization that they need to stop and listen to what the holly spirit has to say. He is a Gentle Man and wont barge in providing insight if I don’t bother to listen to that still quiet voice.

    I believe that there will come a day possibly when churches without ears will come to the of themselves, see that they need God to guide and we can have a real revival. Well these are my two cents.

  62. Wonderful article and it is one of my pet peeves and it will get me on my band wagon faster than most topics I can think of. I was saved in 1971 attended church faithfully for 16 yrs. put my sons in Christian school -yada yada yada. I even attended 3 yrs of intense Bible College only to find the pastor we all adored was found with his mitts in the candy jar that did not belong to him. He was a womanizer, and lied to us for those 16 yrs until God said NO MORE and over night the doors were closed. Just like Noah’s Ark door was shut one day but not for the same reasons. I have not attended church but on occasion for 35 yrs. Yes, I teach the word and live for Him daily. I take my salvation seriously and am not the smartest nor am I ignorant when it comes to the things of God. At first I was offended when first starting a new church to be treated as if I was a new babe. I got over that when I realized most that attend are just that because they are not taught. One in this forum, posted a comment on let’s talk about the solution instead of just the problem. First we are battling what is said of in the Bible of being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Many things are prophesied of what will take place in the latter days. We are upon them. We are to look up as our redemption is getting closer and closer. We are living it every day, even if we are planted in a church where the menu is lame, served water not even milk. meat is a blan soy by product of some sort full of additives etc…..Now some of the reason is we are in the latter days before Christ returns for His saints. But we do not need to accept the diet and menu offered in churches. I have been outside church walls for 23 years and am still full of the HS and power given because of His promises. I am in fellowship all the time, and growing in Him and in His word daily. I am closer to Him than ever before.
    A few here mention John MacArthur here is another of his lessons on DVD that hits the nail on the head for the problems in the church: Does The Truth Matter Anymore? by John MacArthur. In America we are way too pragmatic.
    The problem lies in
    • lack of true called teachers that are actually teaching (not giving a psychology lesson) from the word, that have been taught in most Seminaries. & weed out the ones taking advantage of innocent people in counseling meetings, board meetings, refusal to show the budget, etc…
    • lack of depth in commitment in the clergy and the laymen
    • the world’s ideas to make church a corporation
    • 2 or 3 services in a morning
    • “the more warm seats on a pew- the better” mentality
    • the performance/entertainment mentality in sermons
    • the performance/entertainment mentality in worship & a general overall basic flesh not spirit.

    The solution:
    • REPENT with true gut rendering sorrow like David Psa 51.
    • Get back to the Bible & its message to be humble and repentant Micah 6:8,
    • A true deep commitment to Jesus Christ,
    • Find servants that are true called teachers & preachers (not hirelings or perverts) that offer scriptural meat on the menu, and that is anointed by God as it is scripture and what He put on your heart to teach or preach. Not what feels good, you know the material better or does not offend anyone.
    • Conduct services as the Lord leads not the preacher or the one that tithed the highest.
    • Get rid of the pew warmers and the half committed. Seek for committed folks who will seek God with all that is within them.
    • Trust God to pay the bills not numbers on a pew.
    • Get rid of all traces of Ecumenicism and Rome from your churches, and all catholic creeds that have been left in the Christian churches.
    • Create a worshipful mentality free of loud noise and heavy beat that is to draw in the kids & their shallow commitments due to the music they like and drive out the steadfast, the mature and the elderly.
    • Then depend upon the HS to lead and guide not your own intellect. Do not sing a song or say a word lest the HS prompts you. And in short, Let Him Lead and you will be amazed at what is on His heart and what he does in a service and you walk out filled knowing you have been with God & accomplished His business at hand. .
    There could be far more solutions than listed here but it will get the church on the road to a good start that will end up in pearly gates.

  63. Marilyn Crow Feb 13th 2013

    Very encouraging alamoaa.

    I see the `hub` of our coming together is in the smaller groups where true mutual ministry takes place, where each contributes.

    Where does it say that the large organisation meeting must be the hub of our lives? It is an ancient Greek-based tradition where one orator teaches & the others only listen. To grow to maturity we all need to communicate, share, listen & encourage.

    The Lord also told us that we must not `lord it over others.` The heirachical system we see in place is of the world, as Jesus said.
    `You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over…..Yet it shall not be so among you.` Matt. 20: 25 & 26.

    In a small group situation, true learning takes place far more rapidly & deeply because people are encouraged to give expression to the truth themselves. Through interaction, experimentation with words & correction, the responsibility to speak & share a word from God becomes the doorway to true learning.

  64. Elmarie Bouwer Feb 13th 2013

    Hi Andrew

    All I can say to every word you’ve written is yes! and yes! Every word is the absolute truth. Well written article and very relevant.

  65. Marilyn Crow Feb 13th 2013

    A book that gives `solutions,` is by Ray Barnett, called `The Gathering.` Pub. littleman, at Fishpond. It is $19.00 & No postage.

    Ray has been a missionary for many years, Russia, India & other places. It is the best I`ve read on how Jesus said the Body of Christ should gather.

    It is clear, funny & an easy read with great teaching. I`ve order more for our group. Will be good for discussion on how the Lord is building His `called out ones.`

  66. I have observed in the church 3 different strategies that are, I believe, demonically inspired to destroy the ‘Saints’ in the West:

    The first attacks on the Body of Christ seem to come from the stronghold of Witchcraft (commonly referred to as ‘Jezebel’). ‘Seeds’ are initially sown as idols of ‘fleshly’ or ‘worldly’ distraction. Their goal is to seduce or to dull the ‘affections’ of the saints. Passive masculinity seems to be the door way that I believe opens the churches up to these onslaughts. I believe that the forms that these attacks take can be seen in the following ‘attitudes’: a spirit of: Pride / Rebellion (which is Idolatry of self),Sensuality(which is idolatry of the body) & Materialism (which is Idolatry of possessions).

    Without repentance a 2nd wave of attack seems to come from the Stronghold of Antichrist. It grows in the dulled ‘affections’ of the saints. This stronghold gains strength through stealth & deception by redefining ‘truth’ in scripture it’s nature is seen in these sinful attitudes: Humanism (which is idolatry of humanity), Rationalism (which is idolatry of the mind) and Popularity (which is Idolatry of self).

    Likewise without repentance a 3rd wave of attack seems to come from another Stronghold that I like to call ‘Death & Hell’. Like a cancer ‘Death & Hell’ seems to thrive in an already ‘sick’ Body. Without repentance this attack in my opinion will terminate the “life of faith” in a community. It manifests itself slowly growing in the evil works sown by previous sins of: Deception (idolatry of self), Doctrines of demons (idolatry of Self & Satan), Apathy towards evil (idolatry of Self & Satan), Complacency to God (Idolatry of self), Slander (Idolatry of self), Immature character (Idolatry of self), Family destruction (idolatry of self), Disunity & schisms (which likewise is Idolatry of self)

    These sins if we allow them destroys us as a worshipping community: Famine of the Word, Prayerlessness, Faithlessness, Spiritual Isolation, Spiritual Sickness and eventually Spiritual Death.

    I think it is important to ‘discern’ where our fellowships actually are in our response to the devils strategies. I am crying out to God for strategic actions that we can take to counter the destructive effects of the devils plans to destroy us.

    I believe I understand where our church is in this list, where is your fellowship positioned?

  67. Hi,i was working in my shop last week,had what we call christian music playing,the words were I’ll do this for you lord and that for you lord,I then thought about my own walk with Christ and that verse came down, matt 15:8.I thought for a moment do I truly know the heart of the father,obviously not or I would be a doer of the word and not just a hearer and a talker,Anyways last week in church a youth gave his life to Christ comes up to the front, the pastor anounces that this young fellow give his heart to the lord.I’m sitting up on the stage on the drums,in the book of act’s it say when salvation came there was great JOY in that place,well there was no great joy in my church that day a few peoples hand clapping a few hoots and hollers, the end.Sad to say no Holy Spirit that day.I believe thats the case in a lot of churches around the world today. With all the paganism that”s crept in to the church,and that includes my church to it’s no wonder were seeing this dung in the church. I call it dung because it”s a stench in Gods nostrills,We have replaced the gold in the temple so to speak with brass and the devil is helping us.So wheres the problem,does it start with the pulpit, pastors or preachers or teachers,who are there because of oratory skills or bible colleage degrees, but have no mantle or annointing to stand in that office.One old bible teacher said “The preaching that produces little conviction,is caused by the word not having been in the heart of the teacher”. a frendly seeker gospel mabey,It’s true to a point that a congregation is mightily influenced buy the pastor and it’s leaders.If the pastor is called by God to to stand in that office and he’s true to Gods word and does not comprimise your either going to have a triumphant church or an empty one.Even the worship music is it taking the place of the Holy Spirit people have a hard time differentiating between the two. Music can be a powerfull instrawment when it’s God approved,when it’s not, look out all hell can break loose. All this sounds like some of the churches Jesus talked to in the book of revelation who had allowed the world to creep in to the church and kill it, you are alive physically but spiritually you are dead.But just as Jesus gave them time to repent and return to him,so does he say to us today, repent, turn from our earthly ways, return to him and do the first works.And we know what the rest of the verse says.

  68. I have not been there, but according to what I have been hearing, young people are coming to Christ in droves at Times Square Church in NYC. Basic sound gospel preaching and pretty traditional worship/choir…all kind of “old school” stuff. It’s what the world needs and recognizes as being their only hope once they are exposed to it. I have been involved in house groups for the last fifteen years so am not endorsing traditional church structure, but it can be done right…..the gospel works!

  69. Michael Feb 13th 2013

    I agree with the article but it sounds like Jesus has lost control of his church? Is that possible of God or does he have a plan behind this to fix his people to be without spot or blemish? I think he always has a plan for us.

  70. jackrabbit Feb 13th 2013

    A lot of pastors see themselves as entertainers, not shepherds. It is not surpising that their ministries bear the fruit of what is in their hearts.

    When I was more cynical I used to see them as hacks that were not good enough to make it in the real world, the entertainment industry. Ministry is a hack entertainers magnet. Their stars like the tv evangelists rake in more money each year than a lot of celebrities and you don’t have to be that good to have a church full of fans.

    Far better to be a working actor than an unemployed one.

  71. ValleyAnt Feb 13th 2013

    Anaru, you mentioned discernment. I believe that just as parents would want to be able to discern people who aren’t trustworthy around their kids, Christians, especially ministers, should endeavour to be able to discern what is good or bad, true or false, of God or satan out the flesh or soul, etc.

    As you said, the enemy tends to employ different levels of attack on church bodies. I’m not a part of a church body now, but the last one I was a part of for a very short time had Jezebel ruling over it because an Ahab husband permitted it. It’s important for those who lead or are a part of churches to be able to discern the enemy and his methods to attack and destroy each church/group. There’s a direct correlation between discernment and the ability to hear from God. I like to ask ministers when last they heard clearly from God. The answers have been disturbing and explain an overall lack of power among ministers. (The last minister I asked said he last heard God clearly when he first saw the woman he would marry… about twenty years ago.) These two (spiritual discernment and hearing God) are, however, often missing in fellowships as of now. It’s right that you mentioned a three-level attack as they often operate in threes. I believe the Lord will re-teach this discernment to those who need to have it.

  72. Quote………
    John MacArthur is an excellent student of the Bible. If you go to his website, http://www.gty.org (Grace To You), you can download his studies on the New Testament. He does in-depth, chapter by chapter, verse by verse studies of the Bible.

    Andrew, this is the type of work you do a very excellent job with. However, when you talk of political issues (like guns or obama-care), your work is not as excellent. I think this is the sort of stuff you need to focus on. :-)
    End of quote………

    He may be an excellent student of the Bible as you say. But John MacArthur teaches against the experience of the Baptism of the Spirit. He opposes divine healing as well. This is typical Baptist doctrine.

    Secondly, do we all hide our heads in the sand as to the things taking place in America?

    I see a lot of comments where “everyone” is setting around telling Andrew he is finally back on track.

    The articles on Christians being involved with politics, guns, tea party movements have been good articles in the sense it is showing Christians what path they are following.

    Do we hide our heads in the sand and refuse to make waves because it might stir up a hornets nest? Jesus did not hesitate to mention what the leaders were involved in and doing in His day and time.

    I thought all those articles were good articles and made for an interesting topic. Personally, I did not realize how political the church in America has become, until I saw the reaction of so many. The comments on the articles have been real eye openers.

    But I am beginning to see on the other side of the coin there are so many who only want to hear certain subjects as long as it does not include their grey areas.

    America needs to be warned as there are millions headed for “hell” in this country.

    Isaiah 62:6
    I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; They shall never hold their peace day or night. You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent,

  73. Ken Walton Feb 13th 2013

    Two thoughts; “Ten Shekels And a Shirt”, the classic rebuke of “Christian pragmatism” by Paris Reidhead. And this quote from A. W. Tozer:

    One mark of the low state of affairs among us is religious boredom. Whether this is a thing in itself or merely a symptom of the thing, I do not know for sure, though I suspect that it is the latter. And that it is found to some degree almost everywhere among Christians is too evident to be denied.

    Boredom is, of course, a state of mind resulting from trying to maintain an interest in something that holds no trace of interest for us (the boss’s jokes, say, or that lecture on the care and nurture of dahlias to which we went because we could not resist the enthusiastic urging of a friend). No one is bored by what he can in good conscience walk away from. Boredom comes when a man must try to hear with relish what for want of relish he hardly hears at all.

    By this definition there is certainly much boredom in religion these days. The businessman on a Sunday morning whose mind is on golf can scarcely disguise his lack of interest in the sermon he is compelled to hear. The housewife who is unacquainted with the learned theological or philosophical jargon of the speaker; the young couple who feel a tingle of love for each other but who neither love nor know the One about whom the choir is singing-these cannot escape the low-grade mental pain we call boredom while they struggle to keep their attention focused upon the service. All these are too courteous to admit to others that they are bored and possibly too timid to admit it even to themselves, but I believe that a bit of candid confession would do us all good.

    When Moses tarried in the mount, Israel became bored with the faith that sees the invisible and clamored for a god they could see and touch. And they displayed a great deal more enthusiasm for the golden calf than they did over the Lord God of Abraham. Later they tired of manna and complained against the monotony of their diet. On their petulant insistence they finally got flesh to eat, and that to their own undoing.

    Those Christians who belong to the evangelical wing of the church (which I firmly believe is the only one that even approximates New Testament Christianity) have over the last half-century shown an increasing impatience with things invisible and eternal and have demanded and got a host of things visible and temporal to satisfy their fleshly appetites. Without Biblical authority, or any other right under the sun, carnal religious leaders have introduced a host of attractions that serve no purpose except to provide entertainment for the retarded saints.

    It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God’s professed children are bored with Him, for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments.

    This has influenced the whole pattern of church life, and even brought into being a new type of church architecture, designed to house the golden calf.

    So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped-candy technique has been so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

    Any objection to the carryings on of our present golden-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, “But we are winning them!” And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world’s treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no.

    We are paying a frightful price for our religious boredom. And that at the moment of the world’s mortal peril.

  74. Darren Sargent Feb 13th 2013

    “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.
    ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.” Jer 8:11

  75. Darren Sargent Feb 13th 2013

    For Andrew:

    “You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you.” Jer 1:7

    No more warnings for the USA huh? A warning to the USA is a warning to the world, for she represents the world. Say whatever you are given Andrew even if it hurts us . . .

    “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.” Job 13:15

  76. Charismatic/Ecumenical Error

    The dear folk that are caught up it in this today, need to be taught/corrected/admonished in love in the Word and not condemmed.

    It is nothing less than the “lack of sound Paul line biblical doctrine” that has these dear people in the mess/confusion that they are in today.

    http://www.merrymanministries.com/Series.aspx?SeriesID=3

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    The WORD is our plumb line today and the indwelling Holy Spirit is our Teacher in this dispensation of the Church/Grace.

    As Heb 1:1 says, in times past (the previous dispensation “Mosiac Law) He spoke to the fathers by the prophets but in Heb 1:2 we are told that in these last days (the last 2000 years) He is speaking to us through His Word/Son. Hence, there are NO modern day prophets/apostles today as He is speaking to us through His Word/Son.

    Yes there was prophets/apostles/tongues in the first century Church for this unique pre cross/post cross generation, in this transition period from law to grace. But it was only to confirm the New Thing (The Mystery of the Church, hidden in the mind of God and revealed through one man, Paul) and when the cannon of scripture was completed, these gifts ceased.

    1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    Only in part,but!

    13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    “when that which is perfect is come” The completed cannon of the Word.

    “then that which is in part shall be done away” prophets/apostles/tongues.

    As said, the Word and the Holy Spirit is our only guide today, since the first century Church

    Please check the site i mentioned for a good exposition of the Word, he does a much better job than me.

  77. Camalunghi Feb 13th 2013

    Ken Walton,

    Thankyou for sharing – Religious boredom is indeed a problem and we need to find away to get over this….when we live in an age of increasing immediate gratification and a younger generation who hardly know anything about traditional life skills. Technology is speeding up everything. so it isnt surprising boredom is a big problem. But at least identifying the problem honestly is a start. God requires worshippers but how can there be worshippers if people are bored? There needs a breakthrough spiritually which pastors and worship leaders need to recieve for their churches. Its a good subject to discuss…but I need to go now

  78. Gordon Feb 13th 2013

    Q? When Jesus comes again ….will He find any faith, saving, Believer’s faith, Standing on the Promises faith, in love with Jesus faith …a love that I cannot put into words? He gave His life in obedience to our Father, He gave His life so as to be the Way – The First Fruit (Will – Pleasure) of our Father, and The Promise we do have an inheritance beyond measure or imagination. Satan hates God’s own! In the Valley low, we enjoy the Promise High and There Is A River in the Valley and Green Pastures. Men of faith are warriors working, fighting the Way of God to Salvation ..Following Jesus we die to self.

  79. Well did Solomon say “There is nothing new under the sun”
    - A greater than Solomon came and He is largely ignored by the very church who professes Him.This One asked “Have you read …….. where it is written” Man’s nature being what it is, he interposes his own will and ideas, hence the churches dilemma, and many. have no more of the Holy Spirit in them than the heathen they profess to convert .
    And i am sorry Ken1. The the only problem with the gifts of the Spirit and tongues (praying in the Spirit) today is
    ! With those who profess Christianity but have none of them . or
    2 Those that have all of them but abuse them as did the Corinthians.
    If you take an unbiased look at Church history i think you will find that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit never died out, organizations that had none of them are not Churches. period.
    As some have alluded to above. Gods law says kind begets kind So.. a “church” that is dead and cold will produce dead, cold converts a “church” that thrives on entertainment will need to continually up the anti to keep the pot boiling, a church that relies on “theology” will produce lawyers full of their “scholarly knowledge” – useless to the common man, – mostly boring to the learned.
    I say it again. The pattern, the faith, the blueprint, was once delivered in Acts 2. In all Human affairs we must begin at the beginning this practice came from the Alpha and Omega Himself. For the Christian (anointed) the Alpha is Peter in Acts two – “WHAT MUST WE DO” they cried! Any other answer than the one Peter gave that day is another gospel, another Jesus – one the early church did not preach – and neither should we! Brethren, those of us reading Andrew’s pages, Is that our Alpha? If not why not?
    Ken1 and all. Please read verse 39 Peter nails it, that what he, the119 folk with him in the upper room, and another 3,000 that same day experienced was because the Lord. — called them! – To those gainsayers who say these gifts have ceased, I then say God has not called one single person since the day. somewhere in Paul’s time, when they supposedly ceased!. and you will quite rightly say that is a lie! if so, then so is the assertion, the Gifts of the Spirit including tongues have ceased.
    Blessings all
    Pr Michael

  80. Nina Hoover Feb 13th 2013

    I left a church that I had attended for 12 years ,two years ago. I walked in one morning.Instead of the one huge screen in the middle ,above the pastors head (helped with announcements,verses to our songs etc),there were now three huge wrap around screens, aka Imax.The cross that was always prominent behind pastor ,had been relegated off to the side,in the shadows. The big screens were the focus for that day ..I stood up,gathered my purse,Bible etc and walked out. I have never been back. Broke my heart to do that. Many good friends there.All good Christians.I watched the broadcast of the services later and evidently I left before the “fireworks” (the dry kind ,lots of confetti) was set off.There are two services on Sunday morning. Parking lot is huge and packed. So his message is popular. I do not want a Broadway show atmosphere. I do not need a “feel good” message. I was raised Southern Baptist. Fire and brimstone in a little country church. No a/c and really hot on a Texas evening. But the love of God was there and his message was the prominent focus.I have since visited several churches. Some were frightening and I didn’t go back. Some were more involved again ,with the feel good about yourself message and had large social calenders to draw more worshipers in ,I suppose.I am still searching. I read my Bible and pray that God will put me exactly where He wants me to go.

  81. Jim Tilley Feb 13th 2013

    There is a great evil occurring in Christianity in these latter days, and it is found by our agreement that the words of Romans 6: 1 – 11 are not actual truth, but rather symbolic in nature.

    If the dark glasses of this world were taken off, and we could see more clearly concerning this matter, we would understand that in the first century A D, these words were seen as being actually true. IOW, We (humanity) all died in Jesus at His Second Death, between Gethsemane and Calvary. If at our individual baptisms we were taught the truth, that Jesus Messiah died AS ME, the institution of Baptism would become for us of far more value than at present, so that if I am dead, then the Spirit indwelling me is in charge of my sinful flesh, until the Second Coming, thus this in-between time should show the world: Christ in me, the hope of glory!

  82. Gordon Feb 13th 2013

    Oh, no, the gifts of God has not ceased. I have complaining claiming to be Believer’s with true gifts but not believing. So, most stay sick, claiming their sicknesses, diseases …double minded as can be. Yet pray and pray and will not let the Truth come. Confronted, even if one was raised from the dead, they enjoy the attention of evil …their words, their thought life in adultery against the will, the Way, the Truth of Life. Jesus will not acknowledge Adultery, the double minded. Basic Training is “Getting The Board Out of Your Own Eye” …. and there is little support, little ‘How It Works” in the Christian Churches-as-Usual.

  83. Dear Michael

    What nails it for me is in the scriptures –

    Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Paul is the ONE and ONLY man that was given the revelation of Jesus Christ to the Church –

    Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

    Notice, Paul DID NOT go up to Jeruslem to see/hear from the Apostles (that were before him) after is Damascus road experience but as instructed by the Lord he went into Arabia. And remained there for three years and received personal revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ, for instruction/doctrine to the Church of today. That gives Paul the Authority to the Church today, not Peter. Remember Paul had to correct Peter in some things.

    1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

    The book of Acts is more or less a recording of what the Church “Did” then, but it is Paul alone that was given the instruction/doctrine to the Church, NOT Peter. It is the Charimatics/Pentecostals who are trying to go back and relive the book of Acts (experiences) when they should be getting into the epistles of Paul, Roms etc etc. Solid meat of the Word as Paul tells us.

    Remember what Jesus said in John 16:12 -

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    When, later, did Jesus say these “many things” and who did He say them to?

    He said these “many things” later, through the Apostle Paul, as the deciples could not bear them now.

    2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO ACCORDING TO THE WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM HATH WRITTEN UNTO YOU;

    3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    NOTICE, even as of this time that Peter is still struggling with some things that Paul has said “SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD”

    Folks get into the epistles of Paul and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal His Word to you.

    Every blessing

  84. ValleyAnt Feb 13th 2013

    Ken1, it’s surprising how many Christians edit the Bible and believe they are righteous for doing so. Some people, concerning apostles and prophets for today, take time to debate the issue with those who deny God’s Word; I don’t debate about it, because I believe that when doubt clouds the truth, then there’s no greater proof than seeing with your own eyes. But those who can believe God’s Word over their own imaginations (i.e. their own wisdom) simply because God said it are fortunate: to Thomas, Jesus said, “Because you have seen you believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

    You quoted Heb. 1:1-2, a passage that succinctly tells us that all five ministries are until the end of time. But you can’t see it because you have chosen what to believe: God made Himself known in the past by doing some things sometimes but not other times (e.g. He healed some but not all); but in Jesus, everything that He began continues to eternity (e.g. everyone who came to Him was healed; integrity, sameness, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever”). This includes apostolic and prophetic ministry.

    It’s easy to be selective about the Bible and to wend one’s own beliefs into the pages. Everybody does it. But we need people today who want the whole truth and nothing but. Opinions are everywhere and accomplish little (look around you); only truth brings change and makes things happen. Is God waiting for an appointed time to do things or for appointed people to do it through. John MacArthur, respected author and teacher, believes that apostles and prophets are no longer for today; but the prophetic ministry and apostolic Grace on him are apparent for those who know what to look for. In other words, he has great teaching but denies the very Grace that is in him. This is God’s wisdom. Homosexuals believe deeply what they practice as okay, but God created them heterosexual, therefore, no matter what they do or believe, their DNA remains as God created it, proving that God’s Word is truth. The same applies to apostolic and prophetic ministry and all the gifts that came with Jesus and Pentecost which, according to the Heb. 1:1-2 which you quoted, are gifts and ministries that aren’t like the old covenant (“in times past”) that had an ending point but are, like Jesus (“in THESE LAST DAYS”), eternal. So, whether or not John MacArthur accepts the prophetic-apostolic Grace in him, whether or not those who deny the ministries of Christ and gifts of the Spirit today ever change their minds by renewal, those gifts and ministries will continue to be in them (even if dormant), because our many denominations and opinions and corresponding lack of power prove that we still have nothing to offer, but that from Beginning to End, God’s Word is truth.

  85. What do you suppose Jesus meant when He told His disciples “those who are not against me are for me”?

    Do we have the right to decide what is the proper way to worship God?

    The disciples did not like the way the young Hebrew men were acting and Jesus told them soundly … look to the intent and purpose behind the action, and don’t make your doctrine (your opinion) a litmus test.

  86. L. Alex Smith Feb 13th 2013

    If any ministry or preacher or worshipping singer actually POSSESSES the Presence, power, and anointing of the Lord, there will be no need for “entertainment”. However, that does not make it necessarily sinful, fleshly, or worldly. In David Wilkerson’s book “The Cross & The Switchblade”, he relates an account of his grandfather Jay Wilkerson employed as a street-car driver. He climbed up on the top of the thing, fiddled with the trolleys, which attracted a crowd to see what the problem might be. Then, the crowd having gathered, he preached to them! Is that “entertainment”? Was that worldly? Or was it just a practical method of getting people together?

    To Ken1: there is not one example in the New Testament where “telios” (that which is perfect, I Cor. 13:10) ever refers to the completed N.T. It’s left undefined. And James 1:25 doesn’t count, (the perfect law of liberty) because James was written BEFORE Revelation! However, in Matt. 24:14 Jesus said that the Gospel would be preached UNTIL the “end” (telos, a related word). Also, He promised in Mark 16:17-19 that “these signs would follow THEM THAT BELIEVE” (casting out demons, speaking in tongues, etc.) without qualification. In the I Corinth. 13 passage, Paul writes that “now we see through a glass, darkly, but then Face to Face. Now I know in part, but then, I shall know, even as I AM KNOWN.” When Jesus comes back, we shall see Him face to face… and we shall know even as we are Known By Him. This can not refer to a completed compliation of writted words, as important as they are. Besides, historically, the Gifts of the Spirit did NOT cease when the Bible was completed; Justin Martyr (d. 165 A.D.) wrote, “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.” Irenaeus (d.202) “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God…” Tertullian (d.220) made mention of the spiritual gifts. Celsus, a pagan philosopher (d. circa 254) denounced Christians for prophesying; Pachomius (d. 346) was reported to have spoken “the language of angels” (cf. I Cor. 13:1) Bishop Hilary of Poitiers (d. 367) also; Theodore of Mopsueste (d. 428) spoke of healings and miracles; even Augustine (d. 430) with whom I disagree on so many things, reported of miraculous healings of breast cancer, paralysis, hernia, and epilepsy; Columba of Ireland who came to Scotland in 563 did many miracles and spoke many prophetic things… the list goes on but my time grows short…

  87. Well written Article. The “preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.” All we need is to be filled with The Holy Spirit of God and preach His Gospel!! No gimmicks needed!!! Worldly things only draws the world. God’s sheep hear His voice!!! Again I say “The Gospel” is all we need!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  88. jackrabbit Feb 13th 2013

    Perhaps all of the pastors being into the occult is a bigger problem anyway.

  89. Gordon Feb 13th 2013

    Ken1, Yes …..Paul was taught basic principles, basic training that fulfilled this command: “Get the Board Out Of Your Own Eye First” and keeping that in mind, “Who do you think will love me the most.” Get the Board Out I refer to as Basic Training as you would in the military. How It Works takes about 3 – 3 1/2 years, some are given a little more water to 5 years. The principles of How It Works is a daily work, not once on Sunday or throw in a Wednesday, etc. This work Identifies a man that is chosen by God his defects of character and by the Way and Truth they are removed..more toward the character of Jesus Christ. Just men that desire a more sober, peaceful, meaningful life that reach out to God get results.

    I have been writing Journals along these lines since 1986. In the workds, I’m am writing a Journal/Book now IN ALL MY AFFAIRS … A good place to start is the Book of Jesus. These works I’m writing in from my own experiences in the Spirit, in the Study Halls of Heaven. Dying to self, being Broken, Deflated and then becomeing more and more like Jesus before going forth into ministry. Jesus Made Paul a Disciple. The MAKING A DISCIPLE is the work of God inside out of a man. A Disciple may recruit, mentor, sponsor, assist, listen and give testimony to another ..BUT the actually MAKING is God Chosen and MADE.

    The Book of James, read once a month before God, ask God to make you a DISCIPLE, MAKE YOU WORTHY ….is a good place to start. God Chooses who He wants to …we are not the one that chooses. IN ALL MY AFFAIRS isn’t something new and it is not Modrenized Christianity nor is it an institution or business interprize but very personal as is The Book Of James. It is simple, a Narrow Way so it is simple to become free and then go preach the gospel and Make disicples by laying hands on others by the Word, teaching them to observe all things of God, First Things First!

  90. Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have COMPANIED WITH US ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMOUNG US.

    1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ORDAINED TO BE A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURECTION.

    NOTICE, the requirements to be an Apostle/Prophet, they would have to have companied with the deciples, when the Lord went in and out among them. And would have to have personally witnessed the resurected Lord.

  91. ValleyAnt Feb 13th 2013

    Ken1, the Pharisees knew the Scriptures backwards and forwards, but they missed Jesus, because they said, “See for yourself (in the Scriptures) that no prophet comes from [Galilee].” Nathanael had the same kind of thinking: when Philip told him to go with him to meet the Messiah, Philip, who (mind you) was a religious and upright Jew whose integrity Jesus commended, sincerely scoffed at the notion and said, “Does anything good come from Nazareth?” Apparently, Philip and the Pharisees were right according to the Scriptures; but they were also wrong according to the Scriptures.

    The argument in favor of apostles and prophets today is so vast (like the ever-expanding and limitless universe), evidenced as far back as the OT when apostles weren’t even mentioned, and the main forces against the manifestation of these ministries today so intense among Christians (namely the religious spirit, Fear, Ignorance, and Unbelief/a refusal to receive God’s testimony as truth) that I won’t attempt to defend what defends itself from before Creation, in OT and NT, and everyday. The Holy Spirit gives us light when we can’t see: “The unfolding (revelation, unpacking, unveiling, explanation) of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (Ps. 119:130), and “I pray… that God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him” (Eph. 1:17). What you read on the surface of the Word is only partial; the Bible and the Lord tell us that the things He taught must be ‘unpacked’ (explained) by the Holy Spirit.

    I will ask you a question that challenges your belief that apostles and prophets aren’t for today: if you met some people and the Lord then spoke clearly to you and told you that they were His apostles and prophets in this day, what would you do. This question is for you to contemplate; I already understand the answers you would and could give, because they proceed from the same place and aren’t new. So, you will notice that I won’t touch on the obvious passages that people use who believe that apostles and prophets are for today nor will I contradict the passages you use (that is the old way of talking about things); rather, I will rely on not just the written words in the Bible, but the testimony of Jesus Christ, of history, of the present, of nature, of physics, of psychology, of the spiritual world, of God the Father’s heart, etc., and will depend on the Lord and His revelation in all things, because without revelation (vision, spiritual sight), there can be no progress, progressing, or progression. I must warn you ahead of time though: I already know all the arguments against apostles and prophets for today. Because sometimes Christians depend too heavily on the Bible (i.e. as the Pharisees did and missed Jesus), I will not depend on it as much but will point out the natural things and daily things that show that God, being One and the same with integrity in all things and never wavering or differing between body, soul, and spirit, has from before the Creation of all living things (angels included) been apostolic from the Beginning and created man on earth to be apostolic even before the advent of Jesus– that in beginning a thing, God continues to completion in all things, apostolic and prophetic ministry included. I’ll be happy to have this discussion if you want (at first, I wasn’t going to respond to any more doubt about something that the Lord makes very apparent), I am willing to talk about it. But let me warn again ahead of time, the whole Creation testifies to both the presence, predetermined habitation, and need for apostolic and prophetic ministry on earth… even as in Heaven.

  92. Marilyn Crow Feb 13th 2013

    Nina Hoover.

    I sympathise with you, especially leaving your friends at the meeting. I have gone through the same but now find the Lord has lead me to a few friends who desire to help each other & reach out to others.

  93. Marilyn Crow Feb 13th 2013

    Michael

    That was spot on when you said `sounds like Jesus has lost control of his church! Is that possible of God or does he have a plan behind this to fix his people to be without spot or blemish.`

    `At the very simplest level, imagine you were presented with a group of new believers. Imagine yours was the challenge of healing their wounds (in Christ) & setting them free from every entanglement of the `kingdom of this world.`

    Imagine that your goal was to turn them into active, dynamic disciples who, in a short period of time, would reproduce themselves…… Imagine that you wanted them to become truly recognisable as followers of Jesus in a fallen world, a living demonstration of Christ.

    Would you ever, in your wildest imagination, decide that the best way was to urge them to give as much money as possible – so as to finance & build an auditorium – & then get as many hundreds of them as possible into that auditorium once a week to sit in silence while they listen to a graduate orator?

    Would you forbid them to have the Lord`s Supper until someone with a degree in theology or licensed by the denomination was present?

    Would a bleeding, beaten young believer who wandered into the meeting be forbidden the Lord`s Supper because he was not yet a `member,` or not baptised your way?

    Would anyone ever construct such a system as being the best, Gospelcentred means for growth in dynamic people-changing discipleship?

    More importantly, did God construct such a system?`

    by Ray Barnett from his book, `The Gathering.`

  94. William Feb 13th 2013

    Brother Andrew,

    Thank you so much for sharing this with us. I sent it to a “pastor” of a mega church I know, that practices a lot of wht this article mentioned.

    I really loved your books (I think there were 3) about the false revivals, and kudalini spirits in the church, which seem to compliment this article well in describing the circus that is accepted as fellow ship meeting today. I also would suggest readers to check out “True and false converts” and “God has a wonderful plan for your life” …2 powerful sermons by Ray Comfort of LivingWaterMinistries. They mention in detail what is happeneing in the modern church.

    I would also like to share an article that “I” wrote after being woken up at 3 am. Keep in mind this was written years before I ever knew who Ray Comfort was, and it was thoughts on what I was witnessing at a church I attended (same one as my pastor friend pastors mentioned above). It is below:

    Some thoughts on the contemporary phase of “making a decision for Christ” inviting people to “receive Jesus” , Or using the phrase: “God has a wonderful plan for your life” as an invitation to make a decision to accept and follow Christ at the end of a church service, aka …….an altar call.

    When I hear a modern altar call at the end of a church service asking people to receive Christ or make a decision to follow Christ, I cringe at the thought of even more false converts or future backslider “Christians” possibly being added to the church

    Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus or his apostles ever try to use the “God has a wonderful plan for your life” to get sinners to repent and turn to Christ.

    It troubles me as more and more pastors, especially in the ever increasingly seeker friendly mega churches in America declare a “Wonderful Plan” altar call inviting people to receive Jesus with out the hearer understanding Biblically WHY they need to “receive Christ”

    The danger with this casual invitation , is that it gives the impression that simply making a decision for Christ or accepting Christ brings positive results, won’t cramp their style, won’t cost too much, will solve their problems, make them happy in Christ and rescue them from the hassles of life, and that Jesus is the answer to their personal, financial, or marriage problems, etc. Many go forward having not been prepared by the Law and convicted by the Spirit as to there moral bankruptcy before a Holy God and their absolute, desperate need to repent and follow the Savior.

    If I were not a Christian and a guest at the service, what reason would I have to go forward and invite Jesus into my life? What will the decision do for me? Will it make me more prosperous, healthy, give me more peace, happiness, safety, a more comfortable life, etc.? How will it benefit my life if I receive Jesus?
    Many say that we all have a hole or gap in our life, and only Jesus can fill that hole or gap, and that is why we need to receive Jesus. Is this a Biblical reason to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior?

    People are sometimes told that we have all fallen short of the Glory of God or failed to keep Gods standards is why we need Jesus. But most people are unaware of what the standard is. This is why when most people will admit that they are not perfect, are still convinced that they are “good people” thinking that their ‘good deeds” out way their “bad deeds”. Most people think that everything is ok, completely ignorant of what the Bibles says about the “Wrath To Come”.

    Ask anyone: “ Would you consider yourself to be a good person?” You will almost always get the same answer……”YES”

    This is due to a failure of the church in evangelizing the lost. Modern day listeners are preached a watered down modern message, emphasizing the Love of God only. Although God is Love, he is also a Holy, Righteous Judge who will judge and send wrath upon unrepentant sinner’s.

    “… he who does not believe is condemned already……” John 3:18-20

    “….and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him”
    John 3:36

    “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” Hebrews 9:27

    In his famous sermon, “Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God”, the famous 18thc preacher Jonathan Edwards, shed light on the fact that God is an angry God, angry at sin……something that you will be hard pressed to hear in a modern day message.
    But the Bible, both Old & New Testament clearly portray the holiness, righteousness of God and his hatred of and punishment of sin.

    Why is Jesus called Savior? Because he came to save us from something….He died to save us FROM an angry, HOLY God who is just, righteous, and because he is so, will have to punish SIN.

    In America, it is rare to find this subject mentioned or being preached in the comfortable environments we call church services.

    Many people think because they have not murdered or have been faithful in their marriage that they are “ok” and that God will weigh their good deeds with their bad deeds and hopefully they will come out ok and be saved. This is a lie from Satan, and will keep many from being saved.

    “..I would not have known sin, EXCEPT THROUGHT THE LAW, for I would not have know covetousness unless the law had said , “You shall not covet”. Romans 7:7 

    But the Bible paints a very different picture about our condition before God. Regarding the commandments, Jesus used the Law and raised the stakes considerably when he preached about adultery for example. He said that if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery!!! (7th commandment) So even though I think I am good because I have not been “unfaithful” to my wife, when I look at a young beautiful woman in a lustful manner, or view pornography, God views it as adultery, thus breaking his command.

    Jesus was trying to emphasize the huge gap between our “righteousness” and Gods righteousness and standard which we will be judged by, primarily the 10 Commandments, and the fact that we all miss the mark, unable to keep the law. ( …..fallen short of the Glory…) The LAW must be used to reveal the unbeliever’s true state as lawbreakers that have violated the Law of a Holy God, and as a schoolmaster, the Law prepares the way to the Gospel message, and drives people to Christ.

    Why is the “Gospel” called the Good news? If you walk up to a person and tell them the good news that Jesus died for them and ask if they would like to invite him into their heart as Lord and Savior, how do you think they will react? Will Jesus’ death be good news to them?

    No, why would that be good news to them if they were not awakened to their need of the Savior?

    “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”
    (1 Corinthians 1:18)

    Biblically speaking, preaching the good news (Gospel) should always be followed by preaching the “bad news” (Law, righteousness, holiness of God , sin & the lost condition of man, Love of God and need for a Savior).

    <
    Imagine if I said to you " I have good news for you. Someone has paid a $25,000 speeding ticket on your behalf!! You would probably answer with some cynicism in your voice, "What are you talking about, I don't have a $25,000 speeding ticket"
    Your reaction would be understandable. If you don't know you have broken the law in the first place, the good news of someone paying a fine for you won't be good news, it will be foolishness to you. My insinuation that you are guilty of unlawful activity will be offensive to you.

    Simply telling you that Jesus died on a cross for your sins would make no sense to you, without you knowing that you have broken the law.

    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing"
    (1 Corinthians 1:18)

    But go to that same street corner and use the Law seasoned with the Holy Spirit to reveal a persons helpless condition before God and to get people to understand that they have offended a Holy Creator. SIN was the reason Adam and Eve were removed from the garden and SIN was reason for the worldwide flood in Noah's day, and SIN is the reason God will judge the world in righteousness, and SIN is the reason they will stand before God and be judged in righteousness and end up in Hell unless they believe and repent, and turn to the “way the truth and the life….” and be born again.

    The preaching the good news ( Gospel) should always be followed by preaching the “bad news” ( righteousness, holiness of God , sin & the lost condition of man, and why the need for a savior). Biblical evangelism is always Law to the proud, Grace to the humble

    When Jonathan Edwards preached his famous sermon, “ Sinners in the hands of an angry God”, there were many transformed lives. When someone who was lost and a slave to sin, living as an enemy of God, repents and comes to forgiveness through Jesus, is filled with the Spirit of God, and the result is a completely transformed life……let us not forget that this is a miracle.

    The message carried by the Holy Spirit confirmed onto the listeners that they were all lost, and already condemned and will face a holy, righteous and yes, angry God at judgment, ( Law,bad news), but that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and that through him they could have their sins forgiven, be born again, have eternal life with God and live a changed victorious, fruitful life. ( Grace,good news)

    "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have eternal life” John 3:16

    Not everyone agrees with that assessment however. Human depravity is at once the most empirically verifiable reality and the most philosophically resistant. In spite of the overwhelming evidence on the front pages of the newspaper, the pages of history as well as the deep recesses of our hearts, many people refuse to accept the notion that we are sinners facing God’s judgment. Without the acknowledgement of the bad news, their can be no acceptance of the good news.

    To invite someone to follow the Savior simply by saying that God has a great plan for your life, is doing a grave injustice to the Gospel and if not accompanied by the Law, produces false converts, weak “believers” who flee the faith when tribulation comes and confusion regarding ones sinful condition before a Holy God.

    If turning to the person to the right of you, in answer to the altar call, and ask them if they would like to go forward to receive Jesus because he has “a great plan for your life”, we are NOT being true to scripture in proclaiming the full counsel of God. Does that person really grasp what it means and may cost to make a decision for Christ? If they ask Jesus into their heart, but that heart is not a heart of repentance, then what kind of a conversion will they have? They will be happy for a while waiting on God to reveal his “plan” for their lives, often to be disappointed when any sort of trial comes.
    Many will make a decision for Christ to try to discover God’s plan for their life, not to be saved and made right with God.

    If they have not been convicted by the Holy Spirit and confronted by the Holiness and Righteousness of God, and turn to the Savior in true repentance, their “conversion” will be short lived and do much damage to unbelievers in their sphere of influence. I am embarrassed when I hear a generic seeker friendly altar call, asking an unbelieving friend who came to church with me to simply go forward and receive Christ when he or she thinks they are a good person and have not been preached the Law before being asked if they want to receive Christ.

    "……BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN" Romans 3:20
     
    "..I would not have known sin, EXCEPT THROUGHT THE LAW, for I would not have know covetousness unless the law had said , "You shall not covet". Romans 7:7 

    Those who come to faith through the door of seeking happiness in Christ will think that their happiness is evidence of God’s love. They may even think that God has forsaken them when trials come their happiness leaves. Another important point…. the Gospel is not only for those who have been broken by life’s circumstances, whom are hurting and brokenhearted. No, the gospel is a promise of righteousness, not a promise of happiness, and it therefore may also be offered to those who are enjoying the “pleasures of sin for a season”.

    Today, people are not hearing the message of sin, righteousness, and judgment with the command to repent and flee the wrath to come, instead they hear that Jesus is the answer to their alcohol, drug, marriage, personal, or financial problems, to fill the “gap” in their life, etc. Many therefore come only to have their problems solved.

     
    Jonathan Edwards did not leave out the “bad news scriptures”, Jesus talked more about Hell and judgment than he did about Heaven, It is time Pastors preach the full counsel of God in their salvation invitation speech to invite sinners , who are confused about right and wrong, ( relative truth) to come and receive Jesus. The good news is not about happiness or comfort for us in this life, it is about righteousness with a Holy God through faith in Christ, and being saved from the “wrath to come”

    Most men would not consider lusting after a woman, or viewing pornography as Adultery, because they don’t know what the standard is, that they have fallen short of. Jesus made it very clear, referring to the LAW:

    "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed ADULTERY with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into HELL."
    Matthew 5:27-29

    It’s time Pastors assume that there are unbelievers and false converts in the pews at their services and spend more than just a couple minutes, to evangelize possible unbelievers and make it crystal clear as to why they need a Savior. If done, they would not have to ask people to come up front, many would RUN to the Cross as if their life depended on it, having been convicted by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Law first and then the Gospel.

    There has to be a difference in the way we preach to Christians and how we preach to unbelievers.

    Perhaps there needs to be special Evangelism services held once a week, specifically targeted to people who are not yet Christians????

    What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 2 Corinthians 6:15
    Many sarcastically say that there are too many hypocrites in the church today as an excuse not to attend church. I agree and believe that weak preaching and wrong doctrine has led to a plethora of false converts ( back sliders, carnal Christians, etc) People who claim to be Christian but have not really been confronted with the Law and Holiness of God, truly repented, been filled with the Holy Spirit are in danger of remaining conformed to the world and doing more damage than good in their testimony and walk before the unsaved.
    When the Spirit convicts one that they are lost and will stand before a Holy God in judgment, and that Jesus is the only way to life…..they will joyfully repent, run to the Cross of the Savior, be filled with the life changing Spirit, and will be truly transformed and authentic Christians living lives above reproach in the eyes of the unsaved.

    People need to hear that if we were to keep the whole law, yet stumble in one part, we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Gods standards are much higher than ours. He views sin much differently than we do. Humans take sin too lightly. The Cross shows us the Love of God, but it also reveals to us how much God hates sin.

    “ For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” James 2:10

    If people are not convinced that they are lost, how will they be convinced that they need a Savior and need to be saved? How will the Gospel be Good news?
    The following scripture along with the Law, although difficult, nevertheless is Scripture and needs to be preached. The Spirit will cause these powerful words to ignite a fire within the heart and conscience of the unsaved., preparing the way for the Gospel message to be heard and truly viewed as “Good News”.

    One final conclusive thought… There is little evidence of any practice such as the modern “altar call” in the church prior to Charles Finney. Let’s pretend for a moment that is WAS practiced in the 1st century church. The altar call then as today, would essentially be a evangelistic call to unbelievers ( non-Born Again people) to come to make a decision to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Some of the words I have heard used in an altar call to indicate the results of following Jesus are: “wonderful plan” exciting, fun, wonderful journey, joy, happiness, etc. Suppose the modern method was used in the 1st century persecuted church, where Christians were arrested, tortured, and killed, often in very violent ways. Yet, the church did not die out in those troubled times, but flourished. Would the modern invitation with all its enticing words be attractive to someone knowing that if they decided to follow Jesus, the results could be jail, torture, or even being fed to the lions????????

    How is it possible that anyone would want to become a Christian in such a dark times of heavy persecution??? There is only one answer. In spite of all the turmoil in the world and the HEAVY cost of following Christ, they knew that they were children of wrath and on their way to hell because they were lawbreakers in the hands of a Holy God, AND, they also knew that if they repented and turned to the Savior in faith, that their sins would be washed away and that they would be saved from the “wrath that is to come” and have eternal life!!! They knew that even though they lose this life, they will gain life eternal.

    "The LAW of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple" Psalm 19:7
     
    "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN" Romans 3:20
     
    "..I would not have known sin, EXCEPT THROUGHT THE LAW, for I would not have know covetousness unless the law had said , "You shall not covet". Romans 7:7 
     
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death"
    Proverbs 16:25
     
    "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

    Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:10-12
     
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36
     
    "…..he who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given of his Son" 1 John 5:10

    But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; …”
    Isaiah 64:6

    "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us …" Titus 3:5

    Good people do not enter Heaven……FORGIVEN people enter Heaven.

  95. Richard Savage Feb 13th 2013

    Haven’t many of us got ‘church’ out of all proportion? Hasn’t it become so much more than ever it was intended to be? Hasn’t it overtaken us? Overwhelmed us?

    Let’s be quite clear, we are each responsible to a Holy God for our spiritual condition, not a pastor or board of deputies/directors. We may never say, ‘the pastor said …” We each have our walk in His sight, and for that we will be rewarded with a crown.

    We often speak of meeting the Lord Jesus, either being caught up in the air or at our judgement. This is a personal meeting, a one on one with Him, the Lord of Glory. We hold that time in awe, even dread, yet that time, that personal meeting with Him is actually a daily occurrence, even hourly and not one to be looked on with dread. He is ever present by His Spirit, ever mindful of our every thought, word, deed and need. It’s now we walk with Him, as in Emmaus Road; not walk within a church for social acceptability.

    Where is the church/fellowship so far? Ask yourselves! Can it know our thoughts, our family problems or personal dilemmas. Of course not! Does a fellowship have the keys to Heaven? Jesus does.

    Jesus is our Passover Lamb, the one who takes away the sins of the world; well, for those who will receive Him. He is our entrance to a place to be with Him. Whatever may be written and said about Heaven, it is in truth, to be with HIM.

    Let’s not go on and on about what ‘they’ are doing, as if we possessed a righteousness of our own, for we should have only a righteousness imputed to us. Rather pray earnestly in the Spirit for those of us still trapped within the system which enslaves people to a god other than Jesus, but one which might easily be represented as a christ. Let’s not look upon our fellowships with such fervour that our life depended on them. It doesn’t. It depends on Jesus of Nazareth, and no other.

    The place of a fellowship is, according to my understanding of the NT, a place to share a meal, and a Kiddush cup as well, and spend a time with like spirited people, sharing testimony, asking for prayer, praying with others, laughing and enjoying Him in company with others before again going out into the world, about the Lord Jesus’ business He with us by the Holy Spirit.

    Anyone know anything like that? No, thought not!

    But think on, it’s you and the Lord Jesus each and every moment of your pilgrimage, not you and a church/fellowship. Remember, it is He, Jesus, who has the gift of eternal life, the keys to heaven; not a pastor/preacher/pope or any other self proclaimed person.

    However much people don’t like the phrase, hourly, daily, ultimately, it’s Jesus and YOU.

  96. Richard Savage Feb 13th 2013

    William, just excellent! The best I’ve read in a very long time.

    Please allow me to recount: in the June of 1967 I was 16, Jack the lad, money in pocket, well dressed, well heeled, doing the rounds in the Kings Road Chelsea (hope this means something to you!). I had a date that Saturday evening, it was going to be her first, and mine. (There’s no delicate way to put that).

    As I walked to the tryst, the Holy Spirit directed me to a Billy Graham meeting at Earls Court arena. There, that man spoke not words, but spoke spirit to my spirit. I was convicted of my sin, and that of a nice High Anglican (neo Catholic) boy! I was convicted of righteousness and judgement. How poor was I in relation to a Holy God. I had nothing to offer.

    Long before Billy Graham finished I was a heap on the floor, in complete conviction of my sin. Tears doesn’t describe it.

    I went forward, as Graham asked, was met and deeply comforted by a man I never met again.

    More than twenty years later I was showing a video tape to some Irish lads we’d pulled off the streets. It was a Billy Graham evangelistic tape. Suddenly I saw myself, white jersey, blue slacks, going forward sobbing in tears. It was me!

    1967, the last time I heard preaching like that, preaching which speaks to a man’s inner being. So poor, so deficient of conviction, so sycophantic has preaching (?) become, I despair of it.

    I can say from my innermost being, so much witnessed since 1967 has no place in Christ Jesus.

    But I have, praise God!

  97. Nailed it! Good word.

  98. To ValleyAnt, and you said.

    I will rely on not just the written words in the Bible, but the testimony of Jesus Christ, of history, of the present, of nature, of physics, of psychology, of the spiritual world, of God the Father’s heart, etc., and will depend on the Lord and His revelation in all things, because without revelation (vision, spiritual sight), there can be no progress, progressing, or progression.

    Ken1.
    ValleyAnt, by your own words you have now lost all credibility with me in your above statement. The Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it is the COMPLETE REVELATION, that is not to be added to or taken away from. When you go looking for revelations/experiences out side of the Bible you are on a very very slippery slope and you are just doing what the charismatics of today are doing. And it is obvious to me now why you reject the scriptures i quoted, as you dont seem to rely to heavly on the Bible. But thank you for being transparent with me, i appreciate that and it will save me beating about the bush with you as i now know what weight you put on scripture.

    ValleyAnt said
    I must warn you ahead of time though: I already know all the arguments against apostles and prophets for today. Because sometimes Christians depend too heavily on the Bible (i.e. as the Pharisees did and missed Jesus),

    Ken1.
    ValleyAnt, so because you say that the Pharisees depended to heavily on the Bible and missed Jesus, that that is good reason for us not to do so either? Excuse me but that is heresay. No wonder the mess in Christdom today, when folk like yourself believe that the Bible is not enough or is not COMPLETE.

    Andrew Strom, please comment on these herectical statements above that ValleyAnt has just made, thank you.

    Again, the danger of straying from the Word of God.

  99. Averyl Feb 13th 2013

    Timely topic, Andrew!
    Great replies too, especially Richard Savage’s.

    Sounds like the Greenbelt Festival is similar to NZ’s Parachute Festival.
    From what I know from my teenage grand children, some having been to Parachute, it’s the music that attracts. Hopefully they get confronted with the Gospel in a way that makes sense to them! Alot of them are unfamiliar to our religious terms & cliches!

    I was staying in a half-way house once with an unsaved young solo mother & we had a discussion about Christian music. She believed that there should be a clear definition between worldly music & Christian music, that we should even be able to notice the difference without hearing the words. Well said, I thought!

    What happened to spiritual music?

  100. ValleyAnt, you said.
    I will ask you a question that challenges your belief that apostles and prophets aren’t for today: if you met some people and the Lord then spoke clearly to you and told you that they were His apostles and prophets in this day, what would you do. This question is for you to contemplate;

    Ken1.
    ValleyAnt, very simple, the Lord would NOT speak those words to me as it would contradict His written Word, that is, the Written Word that you seem to not depend to heavily on and that is your words, not mine.

    Every blessing.

  101. ValleyAnt Feb 14th 2013

    Ken1, one who plays with words knows how to paint a positive picture of himself. If I was trying to say what people can easily receive, I know how to do it; and if I wanted credibility in your or anyone’s eyes, I couldn’t walk with God in any service. I’m glad, perhaps selfishly, that you rebuked me because I didn’t think it right to go on to other topics in the midst of an article. Moreover, you rescued me from talking about a topic that isn’t primarily about talk or words but about demonstrations of the Spirit and of power in order that those who believe do so according to evidence and not just Biblical knowledge. (Amen.) You may continue in what you believe; I must know and walk in the truth that makes men free. Now, I can return to the topic at hand, not burdened by having to try to teach. You’ve done me a favor. I hope you will make room for the unfolding of God’s Word that leads to blessing. And Andrew, feel free to comment on my statements.

  102. Carolyn V Feb 14th 2013

    Andrew. Thank you for sharing on “Cool” Christianity – excellent and very true. 20 years ago I attended Bible College and was appalled at the frivolity of the younger students, disrespect to Lecturers, the skits (in the Chapel), the innuendos in some songs that were sung, and much more. One of the slogans the youth used in outreach witnessing was JESUS SUCKS. They believed this would attract non-believers and felt they were meeting them “where they were at”!!! Of course, when I challenged the hierarchy, I was told more or less to accept things and not be judgemental. I was contemplating attending another year, but could not be part of what I believe was too worldly. The lack of true gospel teaching and discipline at the College has provided some students with non-discernment and worldly behaviour in their ministries today. This saddens me deeply. I also agree with William regarding salvation through the Law of God and have also read Ray Comfort’s teaching on this subject.

  103. David Marsh Feb 14th 2013

    “The Holy Spirit is grieved when ministers of the Gospel and other Christian workers more earnestly desire His gifts than Himself; when they are more eager to be clothed with His power than to be filled
    with His presence; when they prefer popularity to purity; when they rely more on polished rhetoric than on the power of the Holy Ghost; when they are more concerned about preparing the sermon than themselves; when they are more ambitious to please the church than the Head of the Church; when they subordinate the ministry of the Lord Jesus to themselves and not to the Lord Jesus; when they use the sacred office as a ladder to personal fame or gain instead of a stairway up which they may lead repentant sinners to the bosom of
    God.” – Daniel Steele

    Andrew, your supplied quote put by Daniel Steele lays bare the sad situation int most of the organised churches. There is the odd exception of course but Mr Steele describes the exact reason why nearly half of all Christiandom left the ‘historical’ churches to begin planting new ones, viz the House church movement.

    And yes, the House churches havent yet found the true blue print of the N.T. ekklesia but they soon will when Wigglesworth’s emphasis on the Word comes forth.

    God bless you all

    David Marsh.

  104. Ken1 You stopt at Joh 16 12 Why?
    Verse 13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come” Paul was not the Holy Spirit neither was he the sole recipient of that same Spirit.
    You also stall at Gal 1:18 ?
    Since you love Paul also will quote him.
    Gal. 2 whole chapter.-
    Note “And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.”
    Can we admit Paul was willing to be corrected buy those who preceded him !
    In the same chapter he rejoices that they extended the hand of fellowship toward him.
    They were of one accord. “unless two be agreed how can they walk together?”
    With a predetermined, stubborn mind, we can make of the Bible what ever we will
    Please bear with me.
    eg
    “Judas went and hanged himself” “go though and do like wise” “that you do, do quickly” All scripture!
    Yes it is absurd, but is an example of what some do with scripture – not rightly dividing the Word, hence all the “christian” sects which really are not Christian. Christ is not a name it is a title – evidence to His Holy Ghost Anointing – (acts 10 38) which was, and still should be the reason His disciples were/are called “Christians”
    In the NT you are either “anointed – Christed” or not! “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed “.
    Note in Acts 10 Jesus was “of Nazareth” until his anointing with the Holy Ghost at Jordan – note His ministry began after that baptism, that baptism was evidenced visibly audibly to John and bystanders, as it is from Pentecost to this very day.-for all everywhere that His calls
    Pr Michael

  105. Yea William You
    Hi, am I stretching too far thinking Peter gave the first alter call? With fantastic miraculous results. howbeit from an upper room – no altar except the hearts of those pricked by Peters preaching – the upper room an advantage for preaching from, he did not invite them out he front but rathe to water baptism, repentance and The Holy Ghost -no singing group, no ra ra just anointed preaching!
    I am not saying do not use modern aids, by all means lets make use of modern technology where appropriate – eg we at this moment are on the net! The exciting thing to me is that increasingly so, the http://www.com and smart phones are enabling the Gospel to penetrate hitherto untilled corners of the vineyard. Some say yes, together with all the trash!!!
    No matter, for God assures us, His people hear His voice – He says so! “a stranger will they not follow” The great question, as you assert, is are we speaking with His voice? That works, from the streets of New York surrounded with its modern technological marvels , or the dusty corners of Africa to the freezing cold of Nepal.
    Pr Michael

  106. Geoff st. John Feb 14th 2013

    I have responded under a pseudo name before here but am using my name this time. To a point I agree with Macarthur. We have a disease in the church and it is it’s love affair with contempory, pop, cool culture. It is trying to imitate the world to draw them in. This in turn has a limited return in bringing outsiders into the church and appealing to marginal christians. Ultimately, it tends to corrupt the church by changing it’s focus from the substance of worship to it’s form. That said, his partial answer isn’t much better. Having one ardent speaker that is passing for a called pastor of the flock, standing up front and weekly either hectoring his flock into getting saved, or benignly whispering plattitudes to balm the half asleep isn’t really the answer either. Old fashioned “preaching” isn’t a complete or a lot of times the answer to anything except making a certain kind of personality feeling better about themselves while their soul is spiritually starving to death.

    The “church” is the body of christ period. It isn’t what we go to on Sunday, Wednesday night or whatever alternative you choose. Our modern version of church attendance in an “old fashioned style service” is based on the melding of weekly meetings started by the Catholic Church combined with the evangelistic protestant services of the 18th and 19th century and have very little semblance to what the original “church” and its meetings were like. The first century Jewish church had 3 different aspects. Temple Worship, which including individual and group meetings at the temple to acknowledge the fundamental rites of and requirements of being a Jew. Synagogue-which fulfilled the function of Jewish cultural education which centered around Jewish Theology. Kind of like mixing certain aspects of our public school with Sunday School. And the meeting of the body in home and public places. Kind of like a home church on steroids. The third option was about all most of the gentiles christians had while many practicing Jewish christians still practiced Temple worship. Some still attended synagogue but not all. In none of these were the fire breathing conversion sermons a staple. Not saying it never happened in a home group. It just wasn’t a staple.

    If you want to hear a screaming rant, have your evangelist or prophet or apostle take it to the streets where it is appropriate. I have noticed though that there is more power in preaching civily after much time spent in prayer and allowing the holy spirit convict than ever came from what passes for an old fashioned dressing down from the pulpit.

    We come together for multiple purposes. To corporately edify God (biblical), to edify each other(biblical), to hold each other accountable(biblical), to seek God (biblical), and to corporately reach out to the lost and downtrodden(biblical). If this is our focus, always toward God, then the form the worship takes won’t become our God.

    Ultimately, evangelism will mostly be accomplished by us not at a church meeting but out in the streets. What happens in church will be more of a celebration of that and, God’s greatness, along with learning more about the word and God’s ways.

    I have no problem with evangelistic meetings with “altar calls” but if that is what we are shooting for when we come together corporately, then we have probably lost our way.

    Most of what I am saying is inarticulately put due to the medium we are using and my impatience with it. I would say to all of you on this subject that if meeting as believers is important, (and I believe it is) then to understand how it is to work effectively and not become a replacement for our own personal ongoing relationship with the Father, we need to take an honest look at what they did in Christ’s time in the body, why the did it the way they did it, then look at what we are doing now as well as why, be honest about our sacred cows, let them go and progress from there.

    A final note about John Macarthur. If you are at this particular site, you have probably at some time in your walk with God realized that a lot of what has passed as the work of the Holy Spirit manifestations was either fake, counterfeit or something worse. But you know there are real ones also. Macarthur believes just about all of the “manifestations” are either fake or demonic. He’s pretty much a cessationist at best and at worst doesn’t believe in it at all. He also likes to spend an inordinate amount of time pointing out that pretty much every one else alive that disagrees with him theologically or otherwise and has a voice is probably either preaching a false gospel or is a wolf in sheeps clothing. You might factor that into what you see as his credibility, or influence on his opinions on about any subject.

  107. ValleyAnt Feb 14th 2013

    Geoff St. John, thanks for that. I hate writing too. Aren’t we social creatures? (Ps. 133.)

    What you said about the churches is true. About John MacArthur, I just happened to be doing a search on apostolic ministry and happened on a sermon of his which I downloaded. In it, he talks about the traits of an authentic God-sent apostle. Then I again happened to get a book authored by MacArthur called ‘The Truth War’, and the Lord led me to use it to do research what true prophets look like today. As I began to read, I didn’t when get far before the Lord had summarized. Then I talked to a Christian friend who then told me that MacArthur doesn’t believe in apostles, prophets, or the gifts today. I was amazed to say the least as apostolic Grace issued from his sermon and prophetic Grace from his book. He never said during his sermon that he is a cessationist, and the truth about apostolic ministry came from three apostolic ministry inside him in the sermon. (This was why I was amazed to hear that he doesn’t believe; his spirit or the apostolic and prophetic deposit in him know that all the gifts are for today and spoke as such though the man himself denies it.) If you look at some of the ministries, college, etc., that MacArthur presides over, you can see the evidence of the gifts he denies. With this, the Lord taught me several sobering and important truths one being the pride that can overtake those who are ‘gifted more than others’. How far from the ideal he fell.

  108. Gordon Feb 14th 2013

    Thursday, February 14, 2013 …I didn’t forget a card and flowers for my precious gift – my wife.

    Does The Romans 8 Church have a place among the churches today? Now there are conditions to being a member of The Romans 8 Church. The members of Romans 8 are not poor, they are over-comers on all fronts. Their willingness, their desire is tested most days by bearing their own cross following the commands of Jesus. The members are always in communion due to the fact they live in a community due to fall of the Churches-As-Usual that has brought the Judgment of God on the Nation. The land morns, is upset, is depressed and shakes, rattles and rolls. God mercy is being withdrawn from America due to the spiritual conditions of the Christian Churches-As-Usual ……the times of the Gentiles draw near. No more debates, no more sorrows to confess, no more playing Church.

    Most in the American Christian Churches are light on the rod or no rod at all. The culture of the Churches has ‘no meaningful church courts’; they can’t judge their own. Churches no longer can ‘kick out’ those not bearing their own cross following Jesus ……….so we have a mingling crowd, a small Babylon if you will but not of Good Orderly Direction (GOD). Americans are the most arrogant people of the face of the earth today ……….their lamb stand is being pulled. God had come as a thief in the night and most Christians cannot see nor hear the unseen. Why? It is due to their spiritual condition; little or no Conscious Contact with God.

    I Warn …that is most of my giving today and it is not cheap; it is expensive. However, there are those of us being prepared for something coming soon because some of the dishonest will Know Jesus for there is No Other Way. No more worshipping the Bull. No more living one foot in Egypt and the other foot in the American Standard of Churches.

    Will Jesus find any faith of merit, the Love of God, without half-measures? I listen and watch children at times and I see one here and there of the Promise. Children can give us great insight with want falls short in the Churches. There Little or no confessions of sin. There Little or no repentance of sin. Maybe a little prayer being honest as you can BUT still not deflated to overcome the little addictions we have as The World Turns. The Children, our diseased generation, is coming to an end. Here in America We think we can work God to meet our ‘wants’. We take gifts of God and most abuse God Love and His pleasure is withdrawn when trampling the Blood of Jesus is exposed by miss use of gifts and power. The End is coming Fast and Furious due to sin as the World Turns, but by sinful Pride in the Christians here in America.
    Yes, we can’t preach to a Sunday Morning crowd where ‘New Comer’s are present. The Romans 8 Church has what we might call ‘Closed Meeting’s and ‘Open Meeting’s. Most Closed Meeting are what we might call ‘Discussion and Pray or Anchor Meetings’. The Rabbi is Jesus of the Romans 8 Church. The Shepherd is Jesus. The Elders are Jesus. Jesus is the Preacher and Teacher for their is only one. The deacons and administrators are Jesus. The entire congregation is Jesus the Head on nothing. ….that is the ‘Closed Church Meeting, Working the Work.

    Follow the Money of Good Works and Benefits in Christian Churches and there you will find the Root of the False Saints. Men claiming faith in God, gifted of God ……..just love to perform the works of mere men. Their names blotted out BUT they deceive many. Why? The cause is their spiritual condition …most know not to test in the Spirit …….don’t have a clue what that is. The False Saint is a con not knowing they are or just dishonest due to fear and insecurity …so the show must go long and that is their purpose driven hearts.

    God has sent many foreigners prophets and evangelist to America and have found 2%, 10% or a small percentage are in fact Christians. The same as Paul to the Corinthians ….many of you are not Christians and you don’t know God. So, it is a suffering for the Real McCoys to live in a foreign land such as America; to live in a world that is coming to an End so soon; Jesus is coming soon. Judgment may come to some reader tomorrow one way or another. The foreigner is quick to say, Few here in America God fear in Truth.

    Many that are saved today is due to their addictions that no longer work for them but are against them, stealing their lives, their families ………such as the Church-A-Holics or Work-A-Holics. There are Few sober in Christ. Most do not know sin sounds good, feels good. Sin give the world a purpose, a belonging, gives a person’s his or her wants and opinions, his or her rights as the World Turns.

    A thought, a sinful thought may be accepted and enjoyed for a moment …a little thrill or more. That is sin pushing the weaknesses found in our thinking. Just because we do not act on that sin doesn’t at all mean there is a condition, a requirement to confess and repent. The sinner is a con, a liar …so it is suggested that the assembly of Believers is place of sharing of burdens, confession and repenting before your brothers and sisters so as to be honest before God. If you repent you must do something, the same as you have faith …we must do something. In repentance, most of the time there may be amends due. One is making amends to yourself by change follow Christ more closely – self control. The ‘self-control’ I’m talking about here is not of you alone but self-control walking in the Spirit. Making amends to others when is it not harmful to do so. Making amends requires doing something to correct, love others as you can, recovery your steps in Christ …so as to get your bubble lever again. Making amends often means being rejected so Letting Go and Letting God is important so we will remain free.

    Yes, the Church needs Basic Training, so as to be prepared to serve IN ALL AFFAIRS. The Romans 8 Church is a Church found in the Spirit, a True House. So, at 73 I’m still building. I am being prepared for a Special Operations Mission in the Future. My wife said to me the other, Gordon you are a very blessed man. So many cannot see nor hear God at work; very Few have the Seven Spirits before the Throne. I see the Father every day in and around and through me. Many are absolute Turned-Off when I give my (1) How It Was Before, (2) What Happened and (3) How Is It Today testimony. I’ve even had people walk out while I was giving my testimony. The self-righteous, the cons do not want to hear it. Why? It is due to the demonic activity going on in their personal Christendom cover – tares dressed up as sheep.
    This is what I hear in the natural and in the Spirit listening to others: “Well, I’m not that bad!” or “Who does he think he is?” “Here comes trouble.”

  109. John S Feb 14th 2013

    Having watched God TV yesterday. Rory and Wendy Alec are prophesing about a world wide revival yet again to happen. They claim to be speaking on behalf of God and His Spirit, speaking gib
    berish languages called speaking in tongues without any interpretation. They were seen abusing words of knowledge for self proclamations and had invited christian celebrities of the Word and Faith Movement to prophesy too on their programmes about a coming world wide revival.

    They said this for 2012 and years beforehand and NOTHING HAPPENED.

    What was disturbing the infamous Todd Bentley, covered in tattoos and certain types of jewerly pierced on lips and nose, speaking with them about this revival which he cliamed was going to explode during 2013 and throughtout the USA and the rest of the world.

    Equally disturbing was the emphasis if viewers providing finances for this to happen and said that the target figure for this WAS A MUST.

    Please see this important link to view waht they are saying and prophesing with their utterances
    http://www.god.tv/highlights/revival-alert

    You have been warned how false teachers and prophets who are using the christian church without any checks and discernment whereby they have become acceptable in speaking on behalf of God Almighty and the Holy Spirit.

    It is no wonder what the church has become and will go from bad to worse.

    If people prefer to listen and give their monies to such things and liked to be hoodwinked in the process, then what is being sown will be reaped.

    The church has become full of arm chair christians, dominated by false prophets and teachers, with many hiding behind such stuff in a church building and watching tv to get their inspiration such as God TV, and being led astray and into deception.

    I don’t believe the church will fulfill its COMMISSION because of its disobedience, no REPENTANCE, doing its own thing in the sight of God Almighty, and following this person and that person who are self proclaimed teachers and prophets, which leads to the path of destruction as warned in the Word of God.

    However, after saying this, the Body of Christ is totally different from the emerging church which will become the FALSE CHURCH, and which is staring at us in the midst.

    Would brethren care to comment and discuss, as the entertainment issue is being used as a tool to attract people into a false sense of security and another gospel.

    Shalom!

  110. JCBuck Feb 14th 2013

    Don’t any of you get it, even you Andrew?? Is everyone forgetting something that the very Lord that you “say you worship” said?? “There will come a day when I will tear down the TEMPLE in 3 days….” He told the Samaritan woman, “I will no longer be worshipped on the mountaintops or IN THE TEMPLES. Man if everybody would just get off of the old, I have to go to a church building every week to justify myself to my friends, family and peers thing, then you probably wouldn’t even need these types of websites.. Because nobody would be being deceived by these people that thing that an edifice is the answer.. It kills me!!! So many have just not considered these words..However you all bash guns and everything else but still think you have to “go to church” to be saved.. It’s like thinkiing that getting baptized in water will save you, anymore than getting your penis circumsized will make you a physical Jew.. It amazes me the amount of people who just won’t study!!!!! The church building, Andrew, is the “God of America” NOT GUNS my friend, you missed that one by a hundred miles… I have been saved 15 years and the only way that people can relate to you is if they get an answer when they ask you, “Well, where do you go to church? That has nothing to do with my spiritual well being, but when you say “I don’t go” you may as well be telling them to go to hell!! Wake up people!!!!

  111. Gordon Feb 14th 2013

    Good Morning, one more before moving on. ‘Guard Your Heart,” I hear the Master say for Life comes from within and out of the Heart. Know This: A man or woman cannot become a Christian, be sealed just because they want to; gifted or not. No, it doesn’t work that way. The Father is the one that draws men to Jesus Christ and on into maturity and service and to the Table of Blessings as One.
    Go with God and no other.

  112. ValleyAnt Feb 14th 2013

    Gordon, it was good to read what you wrote.

    John S., one of the good things about the false proclamations of these false prophets is that when they are wrong over and over and don’t admit to being wrong (because they believe they are really hearing from God and so can’t be wrong), it gives evidence to those who want to walk with God that they are hearing from and operating in deceiving spirits. People who want to follow God in truth then know to avoid such people.

  113. Roger (NZ) Feb 14th 2013

    Richard Savage, you say:The place of a fellowship is, according to my understanding of the NT, a place to share a meal, and a Kiddush cup as well, and spend a time with like spirited people, sharing testimony, asking for prayer, praying with others, laughing and enjoying Him in company with others before again going out into the world, about the Lord Jesus’ business He with us by the Holy Spirit.

    I say Amen to that. :-)

    Then you ask: “..Anyone know anything like that? No, thought not!..

    Well…, we do experience that – but so very rarely. :-(

    I look forward to the time when that may, again, be a common experience – and no doubt so do you my friend..?

  114. I have just seen TBN Europe promoting their newly built studio in London
    The facility is situated in an ethnically diverse area of the city near world-famous Wembley Stadium and will not only serve the programming demands of TBN Europe, but will enable broadcast production for many other international TBN networks.
    This means that the TBN management will allow the likes of Benny Hinn, Todd Bently, and company to come to the UK, plus the Word of Faith leaders, using the backdoor entrance to promote all sorts of false teachings and prophecies when Todd Bentley, for example, has been banned due to his outragious behaviour and practices.
    See this
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/21/todd-bentley-refused-entry-to-uk
    These are some of the celebrities whose programmes are being broadcasted and used.
    See this http://www.itbn.org/index/subview/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN
    Word of Faith as with God TV, Daystar TV, and Inspiration TV dominated by the same celbrities.
    It is no wonder the church is being duped and those hiding in church buildings turn a blind eye to what is happening to christianity.
    Will it get any better? Wake up America, Europe, and the UK.
    As this will get worse with no world wide revival but a falling away from biblical TRUTH, replaced by error.
    Praise the Lord that the Bridegroom is coming soon for His Bride!!!!!!!!
    What do other believers say when TBN is using the entertainment theme to get more viewers, especially christians, to donate to their causes and to accept their doctrines of demons?

  115. Marilyn Crow Feb 14th 2013

    Richard Savage & Roger NZ

    Also looking forward to the true Biblical gathering together. We have small informal group across our valley & know that God will bring us together in His timing. I`ve tried to bring people together for years but God has taken me to individuals first to learn to disciple them & now we work together to disciple, mentor, their contacts. (People who relate to them in their daily lives.)

    Starting at the basic level of relationship has been the key to building an honest, caring small group. But relationships as we know are not made overnight & many people are working through
    having come out of the religious system & letting God get the system out of them (us).

    God is a builder & Christ is building …..

    Relationships first, over a period of time where trust & care are proven, then gradually there is the

    Connecting of your lives together encouraging, praying, till finally
    there comes the

    Functioning together to help your disciple with their disciples.

    Eventually in God`s timing the bigger `house group,` will come together sometimes for greater input & cross-pollination. (if you know what I mean) But what I am seeing is a slow but steady growth in ourselves & reaching out to others. The circle is expanding in ever increasing with honest relationships.

    We share life`s journey, clothes, food, work, meals etc

    The Stages I see Christ building are -

    1. Out of the religious system
    2. Learning to rely solely on Christ.
    3 Developing different relationships with other Christians who are encouraging & not bitter & negative all the time.
    4. Working with the Holy Spirit who shows us what is of Christ & what is of man. (Get the system out of us)
    This is the stage we are all at now I believe.

    5. Working with a few Christians, discipling & helping them to disciple others.
    6. Finally will come a `house group,` size of interconnected relationships as we see in Acts.

    If we try & put people together in a house group too early it will just end up like the religious system again. The workability of the groups needs depth in relationship, not just a gathering of people.

    As you can see I`m working through this & would appreciate any thoughts from others.

    Marilyn.

  116. Richard Savage Feb 14th 2013

    Roger NZ, I do indeed look forward to that, again and again …. Amen.

    It has been a rare privilege to know this NT fellowship many times in a small Messianic congregation in the North of England. The presence and leading of the Holy Spirit; words which speak to the depth of man, the incredible conviction, this is what Jesus intended for us. O taste and see how sweet the Lord is.

    And out of one Friday evening meeting, on a bleak night, came a service to Jewish people in terms of Isaiah 43. It began with a prompt in my spirit, then a word. The rest, as they say, is history.

    In forty five years, some years faltering, as a disciple of Jesus I have never experienced that sweetness elsewhere.

    He is perfect; His provision, His purposes for us, are equally perfect.

  117. Richard Savage Feb 14th 2013

    Marilyn, good evening. Your is a most interesting post, and certainly one dear to my heart. To offer you anything more than a couple of understandings would be presumptuous on my part.

    Don’t run, walk: He will do all He has for you in His time and the result will amaze you, beyond anything you could have dreamed. Labour in the fields at your allotted task, steady away, and at the end of the day you will see just some of what has been harvested. You will stand amazed, His work through you will be magnified and multiplied beyond anything you hoped for.

    Nothing we forge can be spiritually pure, it will always be a system, it’s the default position of man at least since Nimrod. Better, go where you’re lead, say what is given you, allow deep to call to deep, and remember the OT order of address our Father requires: first thanksgiving, then praise, then worship. I find worship is a product of these two, and best flat on one’s face.

    Marilyn, we’re with you.

  118. ValleyAnt Feb 14th 2013

    Colin, I read the article at the first link. I don’t know what to think about the U.K.’s decision with Bentley. I know that he really is deceived and believes himself to be doing God’s work (unlike some ministers who have, with eyes fully open, chosen lies) and that he is a spearhead of the enemy into wherever he can get him and himself.

    Marilyn, what you shared is encouraging. Your continual use of the word relationship(s) is fitting. What God did in the past and is doing now revolves around relationship (the life for/of God within) and relationships (pursuing life with others outwardly). It goes from explainable to being too deep (or too real, spirit to spirit) to explain or speak about. It is about dwelling (residing, living, staying, devoting)– God’s dwelling place in and with us in spirit and our dwelling with one another in spirit and physically. It is beautiful as it goes from one level to another– from getting started (as you mentioned) to moving onward.

  119. ValleyAnt Feb 14th 2013

    I agree, Richard. And deep calls to deep in relationships that God has put together.

  120. Margaret Newcombe Feb 14th 2013

    I agree with Donald James Parker. When I was save in 1976 I was a drama and art student. As a young person in the charismatic country town church I was mostly impressed by the reality of the Holy Spirit, but for a long time in the process of learning submission to authority and obedience to the Word, my radical nature as an artist had to die. I found much of the church then was not really open to the issues of creative endeavours or of youth issues. There is a place for an expanded use of creative gifts, visual arts, drama dance etc, within the church and for a deeper understanding of God Creativity and I am glad that the pendulum has swung in that direction over the last 20 years. I am also sad that somehow the simplicity of teaching on the cross may have got lost along the way in some places. We must have balance and teach Truth, have Truth and teach balance, or we will fall over and not get back up again. Let God be God….HE IS VERY BIG..as we wait on Him He will restore the fallen Tabernacle of David….

  121. Well well well , some folk are all stirred up talking about the devil and his false teachers. How he must love it when he is the subject of our conversation..
    I think we should get over it
    I do not care a fig what Benny Hinn and his ilk do or might do. I am only interested in what Jesus and His people are doing! Vengeance is mine i will repay says the Lord.. Hear this oh you of little faith ” On this rock have I built my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ” It is written it is spoken by the Lord of Life, our redeemer !! Do we not believe Him? Are we going to panic like the disciples in the boat who forgot Jesus gave ” … commandment to depart to the other side.” The true church can not go under because it is going over! And we do not have to “build a true church “ Jesus is the builder. He said He had built it!!
    Pr Michael

  122. By now it is evident the falling away is massive.
    WOE to the false shepard who scatters the flock……..
    Do many know what the falling away is FROM…………….
    SOUND DOCTRINE. GOOD wholesome words of CHRIST.
    THE scriptures that make one WISE unto salvation through our faith in Christ.
    SO many claim CHRIST……………….SO HOW does one test what they hear as truth or false…………
    BY RIGHTLY DIVIDED SOUND DOCTRINE.
    DOCTRINE rightly divided , understood in truth
    bythe SPIRIT, will NEVER contradict what has been written.
    I fear for those who believe that we should partake of all
    wisdoms………..like physcology, etc………..
    MENS wisdom, wisdom of men. FOOOLISHNESS.
    IF one wants to be WISE…………….let him become a FOOL
    to this world. STAY ONLY IN DOCTRINE. ONLY in BIBLE.
    IF the bible is not enough…………………..SOMETHING IS BAD WRONG. This means the flesh is yearning for something to FEED it. AND this leaven starts small……………and DEATH is its end. FOR the TIME HAS COME , that many NO LONGER
    endure sound doctrine. EVEN all over the internet and groups.
    The kjb……………………the bible, IS GODS WORD.
    and new age concepts have ripped out the true knowledge
    by trying to procduce doubt of its authority in knowlege, righteousness, holy living. THEY LIE, and they master is the dark one. Satan is author of all mans wisdom.
    RISE UP LAMBS………………….RISE UP in WHOLESOME WORDS of CHRIST. STAND firm upon the truth.
    STAND on the HOLY STONE…………..
    STAND and LEARN the truth also of SCRIPTURES.
    Stand upon the rock………………….all else is sinking sand………..

  123. MICHEAL be blessed. YES we should be MOVING FORWARD
    in CHRIST. BUT the early apostles………….the ONES who actually knew him, and had the more sure WORD of prophecy.
    THEY WARNED many times about the dangers of falling away
    and false ministires……………….
    WE SHOULD TOO. BUT we SHOULD ALSO focus as a GROUP HOW we can be used as GODS workmenship
    created UNTO GOOD WORKS.
    MEANING……………..THE TIME has COME, and has been,
    THAT WE need to focusing on winning souls and keeping
    them in convenant with CHRIST.
    FOR Even paul cried…………………MY little children of whom i travail in birth again…….TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU.
    IT is our duty, for those who know , to TEACH all believers
    that we all grow up . MY advice…………
    Let those who have the GIFT of exhortation do as they ought.
    whether warning or by encouraging.
    LET THEM BE. LET them WARN. for many…………..i say many
    no longer behold BOTH the GOODNESS and SEVERITY of GOD.
    BOTH most beheld. BOth………….
    for men , all of us , has evil flesh which is contrary unto the SPIRIT,
    and it MUST be crucified DAILY. SAVE SOME WITH FEAR.
    FOR the end of all that is contrary to GODS TRUTH………….will be death in a lake of fire. THAT is a torment i wish upon none.
    BUT many willface it on that Day. I will not be held accountable
    for their blood. PAUL KNEW that as well.
    YES, i am a avid reader of the HOLY WORD of GOD
    and a shunner of all mens wisdom. AMEN.
    Half truth, mens wisdom will save none…………….
    ONLY GODS TRUTH saves. JESUS is the ONLY WAY.
    and if we desire to remain of HIM, let us be OBEDAINT unto HIS WORD……….not mens thoughts. amen.

  124. AMEN ROGER and others……………
    I too hunger for meeting with others who love the LORD
    in sincerity. And that we can go forward andwin the lost.
    amen.

  125. Marilyn Crow Feb 15th 2013

    Thank you Richard for those really encouraging words. As I read I realised that God was speaking through you, a prophetic word.

    `labor….steady away….you will be amazed….His work,….`

    To hear you say that is a balm for my soul, for quietly working in people`s lives is not recognised by those in the religious system. But such a joy it is as the `travellers,` we are with grow & mature & we likewise.

    May God continue to work through you as you have that `prophetic word,` in season to those `laboring in His harvest field.`

    Much appreciated, Marilyn.

  126. Marilyn Crow Feb 15th 2013

    Thank you also Valley Ant, I read again what you said & that was very encouraging to me. Sounds like God has alot going on which is very exciting to see.

    Working together in His service, Marilyn.

  127. ValleyAnt Feb 15th 2013

    Michael, as you said, the Lord is the Builder and is building His Church. “Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it.”

    Margaret, two things come to mind about what you wrote:

    1.) Caution needed in the area of the arts. lucifer was full of ‘art’, and he fell because of his glory (his beauty, value, worth, art). Art is a form I’d expressing yourself, usually, and I’ve been surprised to see the spirit/attitude of rebellion (“It’s all about me”) have such sway over the arts: acting, drama, writing, oratory, painting/drawing, dance, sculpting, philosophy, ‘chefistry’, etc. (If you look at Broadway and Hollywood, you’ll see some of this innate-within-the fallen nature rebellion connected to art. This is because while you may show your skills in other venues, in art you show yourself: “Look at me. Look at what I created.” lucifer’s art (worth, beauty) caused him to rebel, and people are not much different. The relationship between art and rebellion can be seen almost everywhere. In college, I could spot art majors from a distance, because they had this attitude. ‘Potheads’ open themselves up to evil spirits who tend to get them into art; they therefore tend to be harder to reach than alcoholics because they become wise (art, all about me) in their eyes. This is why an old friend told me that only self-centered people like to be waiters, why many worship leaders love the spotlight, why many orators as in Paul’s day (oh, I mean pastors) won’t step down from the podium for anything: art; me, myself, and all that I’m worth (all my glory). This innate rebellion associated with the arts is why much drama, dancing, etc., in the churches stop at the level of the soul, etc. You are in the spotlight in the arts; it’s hard (as lucifer knows who was supposed to show forth his art/worship only for God’s glory) to not take the glittery attention.

    2.) God will rebuild the tabernacle of David, as you said. I truly believe that when it comes to the arts, only those who are totally dead will be trusted to take the spotlight and to not take any glory that people may be eager to give to them but to present to the Lord “an offering in righteousness”. Amen. And Lord, amen. These people must be the opposite of what art has become: selfless. As Jaci Velasquez sang so long ago and so well, they must be able to say, “Sing for me, that the people may be blessed!” Amen. Amen.

    This comment is longer than I planned, and there may be typos, because I’m on my phone.

  128. ValleyAnt Feb 15th 2013

    I want to post this passage which I quoted in my last post as it is edifying, and I hope it will edify someone:

    “He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer to the LORD an offering in righteousness” (Mal. 3:3).

    Amen.

  129. watchful Feb 15th 2013

    Amen to those blessed words, Randall, because the author of them is Christ and it makes my heart burn within me.

    “Satan is author of all mans wisdom.”……….Wow, wow!! That is a HUGE statement and something we all need to ponder and understand…………everything that is of the natural man needs to be crucified, laid on the altar, all our natural talents, affinities, abilities, etc, etc. We must count it all as dross! If I understand this then how can I live in it any longer?? Oh Father, will you help this foolish sinful child! As time goes on it seems these things are more and more being revealed for what they really are.

  130. We are so pitiful. What’s the One and only Deadly sin? Who counts us Present on that day? We use our minds to ‘think everything out, as God would have it in His Word, ; yet we ignore our Finite One that leads us into all Truth and Comfort. Busy, busy, busy words and wisdom(s). It is amazing what one has to do to be Saved, by the ‘good intentions learner’. He said He is the Fisher of Men. Our heads would bobble to hear His ways. We must remember, His words do not come back Void. He is God, Remember? He did not say “follow the ways of man”.Let God, He never fails.

  131. To Michael

    So you don’t care too hoots about Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley, and company.
    You don’t care what they say, do, and how they are influening christians and christian ministers.
    You don’t care how churches are being broken up when false teaching and prophecy walk in through their front doors.
    You don’t care about them preaching another gospel.
    You don’t care about them performing signs and wonders from the occult realm.
    You don’t care how they are scattering the sheep leaving them to be savaged by wolves in sheep clothing.
    And you don’t care what they do next leading people astray and into deception.
    I won’t be coming to your church as I cannot trust you as a christian. And why? You will abandoned me, and when times become hard in the future, such as persecution, you will betray me to keep yourself alive and kicking.
    Is this the church you want when religion replaces christianity and plays ignorance to what goes on around? I do not want to be a part of it! Like nations facing the judgement of God, judgement has begun in the House of the Lord with dramatic effect.
    But then – who cares with those who are calling themselves “christians!”

  132. Ken

    I understand what you are saying. It is like a so called shepherd who allows one sheep who has escaped or wandered out and away from a broken fence and the shepherd cannot be bothered to go and collect the animal.
    Broken fences are everywhere and the so called shepherd cannot be bothered as well to repair them.
    This is what churchianty has become replacing christianity.
    Paid hirelings who use secular methods to get bums on seats with entertainment on the agenda to make things look nice and rosey.
    That is the western church of today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  133. Reachout Trust which has a ministry with cults and the occult have no problems with the Plymouth Brethren and the Seventh Day Advertists.
    I received a leaflet through my letterbox about a free lunch and bible if I went to an event organised by the local Plymouth Brethren Church.
    This I did. It was staged managed and all luvy duvy.
    I shared my testimony with some who wree agasped how the Lord Jesus came into my life.
    I was invited to go to their church service held on a Saturday. I asked if I could share the Word of God. No I could not.
    I was told I had to listen what was said by the men folk at this church service.
    I did not go in the end – everything staged managed with everything geared for the Plymouth Brehtren church membership.
    No modern christian songs. No entertainment. Not much love. The women folk would not allow me to kiss them on the cheek after the lunch!
    Just religion.

  134. Good Michael. We keep forgeting He knows His Sheep. Through His Holy Spirit We know Him.and love our learning His Truth. He has it all under control. He’s not worried, why should we be? I know one thing, He’s coming soon. Don’t panic, just abserve the Signs. God knows everyone’s heart. Us poor humans just have to guess who’s saved? Start at the beginning. There is faulty doctrine all around. Biblel doctrine is the only true Life, death, ressuraction we can count on. Not trusting His Holy Spirit is very reveiling. God hs everyting under control, even the now.

  135. WHO here agrees that transgressions are about come to the full.
    I mean the world is evil……………….many churches have waxed
    after the world.
    IS anyone else getting this unction .
    Because if we read in daniel
    it says…………………IN THE LATTER times of their kingdom
    when the transgressors are come to the full………….
    a king shall arise………….the dark one
    and though PEACE shall destroy many.
    HE is about to stand and the strong delusion about to be sent.
    THE end does draw nigh. Ever nigh.
    and just like in lotts days, or noahs………..
    anyone who says or warns…………………is mocked.
    WE in the last days. ON this i HAVE NO DOUBT.

  136. Richard Savage Feb 15th 2013

    Randall, yes indeed. The end is closer, I believe than many realise.

  137. Randall

    I agree as well.

    I have this inward witness that something is about to happen. Can’t put my finger on it, but I think most are asleep and cannot see it coming.

  138. Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

  139. The next major prophetic event will be -

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

  140. Marilyn Crow Feb 15th 2013

    The conversation has now taken an interesting turn, re Daniel. And I would like to answer a question posed by Richard Savage in the last post but I was too late to answer.

    Richard you asked `Where is America in the Bible?` Ch & v. This is what I was taught in the `60`s, so it`s not a `come lately`. It needs some explaining so you can discern truth or error.

    Daniel Ch. 2 & Ch. 7 are two different groups. Ch. 2 is God`s overview of the Gentile world powers leading up to the last Global Government, while Ch. 7 depicts the final superpowers in the latter times that Randall referred to.

    Ch. 2 has 5 components of the Gentile world powers with the parts of the body indicating them. Head for babylon, Chest & arms for Medes & Persians, belly & thighs for Greece, legs for Rome & feet & toes for the last Gentile World Government.

    The minerals, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Iron & Clay refer to a lessoning of power (see Dan. 2: 39 -inferior) thus the last Global Government will be divided – strong & weak.

    Thus this image depicts the World Rulers successively, & they are mostly historic. The next group in Ch. 7 are contemporary, each powerful but not world rulers but superpowers & operate at the same time.

    Ch.7. Here Daniel was shown by God an amazing revelation (that I realize has not come to the fore yet across the Body.) Daniel was shown 4 great beasts, 4 Superpowers that would arise in the last days. People have confused these with Ch. 2. but a close study shows they are different.

    Daniel was already in the Babylonian period when God showed him these beasts `which shall arise from the earth.` (Ch. 7: 17) They are each powerful `great beasts,` (Ch 7:3) & they all operate at the same time, for the final beast `devours & tramples,` down the other beasts/superpowers. (Ch. 7: 7 & 12)

    So now to the 4 beasts / Superpowers. From our position in 2013 we can see each of these Superpowers & know that they arose after each world war. The World media refer to them in the Big 4.

    God is showing Daniel here in Ch. 7 the origin of these Superpowers that rule large confederacies in the time of the end of the Gentiles ruling the world. They are beastly in character & great detail is given for us today to recognise them. We can have confidence that God is showing us His end time plan as He `herds` these Superpowers towards their final `valley of decision.`
    (Joel 3: 2 Knox)

    1. The Lion with the Eagle`s wings.

    You can probably already see that these are the heraldic emblems of Great Britain & America. The Lion is a symbol of Royal Sovereignty & the Eagle the symbol of Imperial Power.

    In combination we have the intial clue to the identity of this first contemporary superpower to emerge. A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie An empire ruled by a monarch.

    Further revelation was given to Daniel. `As I looked its wings were plucked off,` (Dan. 7: 4) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion & part of the empire became a separate nation with the Eagle as its emblem.

    The Lion was then `made to stand on two feet like a man; & the spirit of a man was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4) Here is a transformation. Until now the outlook & operation had been that of a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating & colonising. Suddenly there is a remarkable change to the higher qualities of the spirit of man. In political language, co-existing in freedom, peace & equality with its former dominions. An empire becomes a Commonwealth of Nations.

    The American Eagle, who originally came from the mother lion will continue to be a dominant & integral part of this powerful confederacy.

    (Some of this I have copied from my notes from A. Gardiner, Pastor & teacher of that time in the `60`s)

    There is more but I hope that much helps, Richard.

  141. Richard Savage Feb 15th 2013

    GaryB, yes, me too! There’s an expectancy in my spirit, and anticipation of a calamity, yet good for us. I fear nothing of it. But I do fear deeply for those who are not in Christ Jesus.

  142. Richard Savage Feb 15th 2013

    Marilyn, my sincere thanks to you for that post. I’m quite touched you cared. I have copied it to a Word Doc and will study it much more closely.

    It must be said, I’m not exclusively a student of prophecy; my particular burden is the Body of Christ in these times, and the Jewish people, although I’ve read fairly widely on Biblical prophecy. It seems to me, only now is Daniel being opened to us.

    My original comment re: America in Biblical prophecy refers to a repeated insistence by some of our American brothers and sisters that America features greatly in Biblical prophecy, which, in my limited understanding, it does not. It is a bit part player, but I stand to be corrected here and would welcome instruction from informed sources.

    Marilyn, it is late here, but I undertake this weekend to examine your post with Bible in hand, and report back, if this thread is still open. In the meantime, I would be interested to learn of ‘the more’ you wrote of. Please do post it here.

    Again, my thanks.

  143. Gordon Feb 16th 2013

    Andrew …After Reading some really great feed back …What Say You?

  144. Gordon Feb 16th 2013

    Andrew – After Reading some really great feedback …What say you?

  145. Sandy777 Feb 16th 2013

    Randall, Roger:
    I made it!!!! I will post more later, I love you both.

    In HIS love,
    Sandy

  146. Be blessed sandra………………roger, therese, and others.
    Lift up our voices in praise unto the LORD and
    rejoice in the salvation of our GOD. I love you all.
    And praise the LORD.

  147. Marilyn Crow Feb 16th 2013

    Richard Savage.

    Thank you for being interested to look at the notes in relation to God`s word & to ask me for the next notes. As you can see Bible prophecy is a great love for me plus reaching out like you to the Body of Christ & unsaved.

    I also agree with you that too much has been made of America. Yes it is only has a `bit part,` along with others.

    I need to say again that this is not my revelation but from men who either came out of the Welsh Revival or were taught by them.
    I sat under their teaching in Punt Rd Melbourne Victoria Australia in the `60`s & `70`s.

    I believe that this revelation has not come to the fore before as there were other matters in the Body of Christ to be worked through – the Charasmatic move, gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Prophetic, Discernment of many false doctrines as Andrew has clearly taught, etc.

    However as others have been saying the time is getting short & I believe that this clear teaching of the word is to be released.
    Before Christ came the first time God had many details & so again in this time there are many details leading up to His coming.

    There has been much confusion & counting of European countries etc for the 10 kings, but God is not the author of confusion but clearly presents what is happening.

    I find that this clear teaching is a great evangelistic tool as you can easily present to people in the world what is happening. They can read what is happening on the news in line with God`s word.

    So now we are in Daniel Ch. 7 & looking at the 4 beasts. These are the 4 superpowers of our day. 3 have arisen & the 4th is coming together. I`ll deal with it on another comment as it`s good to study a bit at a time.

    2. The Bear. (Ch. 7: 5)

    This animal emblem was clearly the USSR, the Soviet Union which came to power after the 1st World War. Although it has seemingly collapsed, all the sovereign states are still in cooperation with Russia & are known as the CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States. They retain the same philosophy & ambitions – to rule the world. This they continue to outwork through war.

    There is an appointed time for Russia to invade the Middle East for World War 3. (Ez. 38 & 39) Daniel provides an indication of the time-slot in his vision.
    `When the Bear starts to move……it has 3 ribs in its mouth.` (Dan. 7: 5)
    Metaphorically this represents 3 nations who have not previously been incorporated within the bear ie. The Iron Curtain. These will join the move into the Middle East.

    Ezekiel, in his predicted military confederacy, records exactly 3 countries. `Persia (Iran), Ethiopia & Libya.` (Ez. 38: 5)

    Eventually this great confederacy comes down to the mountains of Israel to wipe them out, but God steps in & judges Russia`s great army. (Ez. 38: 22)

    3. The Leopard.

    In chronological sequence the third confederacy which emerged on the contemporary world scene was actually the European Common market Bloc. Daniel gives us the details.

    `I saw another like a leopard ….& the beast had 4 heads.` (Dan. 7: 6)
    The 4 heads on this beast denote a multiplicity of authority or government who have united in common purpose. It is of importance that Daniel visualised this beast in its initial presentation.

    Six countries of Europe agreed to a commercial unity of purpose in a common market. However, at the time of inauguration, three of these countries, Belgium, Netherlands & Luxemborg combined their representation & voting, into one affiliated entity called the `Benelux.` Thus the European Comman Market commenced with exactly 4 authorities or `Heads,` France, Germany, Italy & Benelux.

    `Dominion was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 6)
    How meticulous & precise the prediction of Daniel. Each of the foundation member countries of the European Common Market was defeated & powerless at the conclusion of World War 2. Authority as independent nations was granted by favour of the Allies.

    There are other scriptures that show the progression of these `beasts,` but I think that is enough to look at & discern at the moment.

    I pray God opens our eyes to His truth. Regards Marilyn.

  148. zeal4thyhouse Feb 16th 2013

    Ken1,

    I wish you will stop trying to deceive people into your false pre-trip rapture doctrine.

    I just hope you and your like-minded ones are prepared for that what is still to come.

    Wake up please.

    In Christ Jesus

  149. zeal4thyhouse Feb 16th 2013

    Ken1,

    You mention Matt 24:33 but you conveniently forget that 29 comes before 33.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    AFTER THE TRIBULATION!!

    In Christ Jesus

  150. Ken, I love Benny Hinn et al, because so also does my Lord who died for them as much as for you or I,. However I do not care a fig what he says or does, it is irrelevant..because nothing can or will stand in the way of, or hinder ,the plan of God!. I am sorry you misunderstood me!
    I reiterate, we give credence to the devil when he becomes the theme of or our conversation..The N.T. has one main teaching on that subject James 4..7 …. sound doctrine.
    We do not have to care for/about the things that B.H. promotes, and have no need to know of them or discuss them. They will answer to our God not us. For us however Whatsoever things are ……… .Phil 4.8
    We rebuke/resist these things by Love (cannot fail) Joy of the Lord (our strength) walking in the Spirit (if indeed we have received Him), otherwise it is all in our own strength, with carnal weapons = failure by us.t Not God’s plan for his people!
    Pr Michael

  151. Marilyn Crow Feb 16th 2013

    Richard Savage.

    Those who aren`t interested can jump over my notes.

    We have been looking at Daniel`s 4 beasts of Dan. Ch. 7. The first three
    1.The Lion – British Commonwealth/America.
    2. The Bear – Russian Confederacy.
    3. The Leopard – European Union.

    These are all recognised as Superpowers by the world -the Big 4. But the last they name as the UN which is actually ruled over by the others.

    The world does not know the 4th beast but God`s word tells us. The first three are now historic fact & are the 3 superpowers of the contemporary world just as God said they would line up.

    Yet there is a 4th beast that is arising in the world now & it is `terrirfying.` (Dan. 7:7)

    4. The Terrifying Beast.

    `behold, a fourth beast dreadful & terrifying & extremely strong; & it had large iron teeth. It devoured & crushed, & trampled down the remainder with its feet; & it was different from all the beasts …`
    (Dan. 7: 7)

    There was no resemblance, in this instance, to any specific emblematic animal. It was completely diverse to all its predecessors. A ferocious formidable beast, it was absolutely awesome in its unmitigated ruthlessness, savage brutality, & universal power. What it could not assimilate, it absolutely crushed.

    `It had 10 horns.` (Dan. 7:7)

    Horns in Biblical symbology, invariably denote political power, authority & dominion. Subsequently this is confirmed precisely & unambiguously -
    `The 10 horns are 10 kings who will come from this kingdom.` (Dan. 7: 24)

    (I will try & summarize the rest as it`s getting too long.)

    These are the same as the symbol of the 10 toes. (Dan.2: 41 – 44)
    That image stood in Babylon, Iraq & thus shows that this last confederacy must be located & operate from the Middle East. This we know is the focal political & religious centre of the Moslem world.

    The `iron & clay,` showing a divided kingdom points to the bitter historical & religious partition of the two great branches of Islam that has been in progress since the 7th century.

    Sunni Moslems – tradional Fundamentalists.
    Shi-ite Moslems – Revolutionary, Reactionary & Explosive.

    It is inevitable that conflict occurs between the two incompatible faction on every occasion of conflict. This polarisation will continue to create tension & turmoil. It will inhibit this confederacy realising its full potential.

    Eventually, however, a predicted paramount dictator will emerge from their midst. He will unite them into the invincible ruthless superpower that will dominate the whole world.

    I will leave it there but there is much to write on this great topic & all of God`s details coming to pass as we watch.

    Hope this is of help & interest. Regards Marilyn.

  152. Quote:
    We have been looking at Daniel`s 4 beasts of Dan. Ch. 7. The first three
    1.The Lion – British Commonwealth/America.
    2. The Bear – Russian Confederacy.
    3. The Leopard – European Union.
    Unquote!!!!

    Here we go again getting off topic with wrong information about the Bible.
    :roll:

  153. Michael:

    I don’t give credance to Satan. But I do warn folk about false teachers and prophets who have taken away many christians from the TRUTH. This includes leaders within the church.
    Surely you must agree that biblical watchmen must warn what lies ahead and about deception in the (christian) church? If not, then the likes of Benny Hinn, Mike Murdoch, Todd Bentley, Rory and Wendy Alec , TD Jakes, Morris Cerullo, the Copelands, woman teachers such as Joyce Meyer, Sid Roth, WoF leaders, and company have an open road to do as they please and lead people both non christian and christian into what is not christianity.
    When one looks how they do this, notice their use of entertainment and the abuse of scripture to attract peoples’ attention.
    If you believe that this should be ignored then you are joining many in the church who play ignorance and do not warn of the consequences.
    It is no wonder that there is a falling away, with doing likewise in the future because no one has warned people and prepared to stand up and be counted and face persecution for doing so.
    Join the clap happy brigade and bury your head in the sand hoping that it will go away, and thus allowing christianity to become what it is becoming in the eyes of people – obscure, inept, in turmoil, and in disarray.
    And christians want a world wide revival – you must be joking!
    It will come about when the Body of Christ is taken Home to be with the Lord when the Great Tribulation begins. Then those left behind will know what it will be like to live “hell on earth.”
    It makes you wonder why the Rapture and the Great Tribulation are not shared in most pulpits. Many folk fear this and with the ministers who turn a blind eye to the End Times.

    Listen to the words of the late Larry Norman:-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6GJ0Cqwkk

    These are the words…

    “I Wish We’d All Been Ready”

    Life was filled with guns and war,

    And everyone got trampled on the floor,

    I wish we’d all been ready

    Children died, the days grew cold,

    A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold,

    I wish we’d all been ready,

    There’s no time to change your mind,

    The Son has come and you’ve been left behind.

    ——————————————————————————–

    A man and wife asleep in bed,

    She hears a noise and turns her head, he’s gone,

    I wish we’d all be ready,

    Two men walking up a hill,

    One disappears and one’s left standing still,

    I wish we’d all been ready,

    There’s no time to change your mind,

    The Son has come and you’ve been left behind.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Life was filled with guns and war,

    And everyone got trampled on the floor,

    I wish we’d all been ready,

    Children died, the days grew cold,

    A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold,

    I wish we’d all been ready,

    There’s no time to change your mind,

    How could you have been so blind,

    The Father spoke, the demons dined,

    The Son has come and you’ve been left behind.

    If folk are too busy with themselves when the Lord comes as a thief in the night, then it will be their fault for not responding.

    Still in a quiver of disbelief?
    May this song be of encouragement
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs

    You decide!

    MARANATHA!

  154. There were musicians back in the seventies and eighties that promoted ‘modern’ music for the church. The old hymns were not even ‘Biblical’ correct., they jeered They therefore made ‘light’ and ‘fun’ of them. Now where are we?. Divided on the New Worth of the new music. Does the church have nothing better to do? I believe there is a big delimma here. The New Man has an old mind and a new heart, or vis-versa. They are not like minded. That also explains all the difference in Christianity, and all our beings. Which is it, all changed because we’re a New Creature, or divided in themes? How revealing.

  155. Marilyn Crow Feb 16th 2013

    Gary B.

    Sorry you think that I was off the topic. Actually I was talking to Richard savage & answering a question of his.

    Also Randall Lowrey mentioned the prophecy in Daniel in relation to end times, which conversation you also entered into.

    And why should the devil have all the air space!!!! ie Just focusing on the false teachers. Shouldn`t we be balancing it with what God is saying in His word.

    Also if what I wrote on the superpowers is in error, then please go through the notes & biblically correct me & them we`d all learn.

    Thank you, Marilyn.

  156. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints,
    and prevailed against them;
    UNTIL the ancient of days came(JESUS WILL COME AGAIN
    and DESTROY SON OF PERDITION)
    TILL THEN brace yourselves saints, because the world
    is about to truly turn of great evil. And the maryters of china,
    of iran, of other places……………WILL COME TO ALL PLACES.
    A GREAT dearth throughout the WORLD is coming.
    UNLIKE anything that has ever been or will be again.
    DIG deep . STAND upon the ROCK of our salvation.
    AND dont be caught away with false notions
    that all GOD loves he gives the easy life too.
    NO. ALL GOD LOVES HE chastenes and scourges.
    WE will not be taken away from the great tribulation against
    all saints. WE will however be taken away
    FROM the WRATH OF GOD.
    NOT the wrath of this man or men. GET far
    from the lies of the comfortable. who have made theirnests
    and trust in their high walls. And who hate the prophets
    who wont prophesy peace, but rather the evil which is to come.
    as in thte days of the jews so are these days.
    many jews fell away from truth and the kingdom was rent
    SOO too………………..many christains have turned from the HOLY ONE of Israel, and say PROPHESY unto us SMOOTH THINGS.
    THEY teach for hire, for reward and money.
    SO too the JUDGMENT is coming.
    TO THE LUKE WARM……………………
    GOD counsels THEE to buy of HIM GOLD TRIED in the FIRE
    that YE MAY BE RICH. only LET patience have her perfect work.
    MURMUR NOT, against the trials to come.
    EMBRACE the CROSS and understand……………..ALL GOD LOVES
    he chastnes and scourges us, for our profit.
    That we too be made partakers of HIS HOLINESS.
    THE CHURCHES and many have been made lukewarm.
    and a love of smooth things has repalced the LOVE of THE TRUTH. BUT GOD is merciful.
    HIS COUNCIL is HOLY and HIS WORD TRUTH.
    A great judgment is coming upon the churches
    and as in the days of moses…………………a king shall arise
    who knows NOT CHRIST……………….
    and as pharoah fell……………….SO TOO WILL THIS KING.
    BUT first many must be made white and tried and purified
    in the furnace of affliction.
    FOR this affliction which is but a moment, is mild
    compared to the LAKE of FIRE from which there shall be no escape for all who loved not the truth.
    SOME had better go and read again the words of CHRIST
    the words of paul , of peter, of james, of the message to the churches also in revelations, and learn the sermon on the mount.
    FOR many , i say many will say to CHRIST in that day
    LORD did we not do many wonderful works, many demons cast out etc…………………and HE will say I NEVER KNEW YOU, YOU who work iniquity.
    A wise man builds his house upon JESuS words……………NOT MENS interpreations. JESUS simple words.
    BUT a foolish man…………………lives as the natual man knows to live. DIG deep for the HOLY TRUTH of GOD.
    And get far from men who now teach for hire, for rewards , for money. GET YE far from them. IN a HOUSE there are vessels of gold and silver……….and some of wood…….
    SOME to honor………………….Some ot dishonor
    and YE would to WELL to yourselves……………..to GET far from these. BIBLE reading ONLY. and encourage one another in JESUS words…………not mens. ALL have been warned.
    amen.

  157. DO you all UNDERSTAND and KNOW the one thing
    that BOTH the goats and sheep had in COMMON.
    BOTH HAD CALLEd HIM LORD……………………….
    NOW go and learn what this means……………………..
    A WISE man does not alter , look for a way around,
    changes nor twists………..JESUS words to suit their lil agenda.
    NO a wise man simple says FROM the HEART.
    LORD if you said to DO……………then i DO
    if you said NOT TO Do…………..then i WILL NOT DO.
    GO and learn this………………..
    LEARN ye the sermon of the mount. LEARN it LIVE IT…….BREATH IT and EAT OF this BREAD.
    And pick up the CROSS………………and FOLLOW CHRIST.
    LEARN to be content. Learn of HIIM for He is lowly and meek.
    LEARN . FOR my people perish from lack of knowledge.
    MANY now say i KNOW CHRIST, I trust him……….
    YET do NOT LIVE BY HIS WORDS………….
    THEY only trusted in the CHRIST they formed of self,
    NOT the TRUE ONE. REPENT…………………..and FOLLOW ONLY the LAMB. amen.

  158. THERE is GOOD news for all……………….
    as for the gentile so for the jew.
    The gentiles can be graffed into the TREE by faith in CHRIST
    and the jews who were cast out can be graffed back
    in Through faith in Christ.
    BE NOT MINDED………………………….BUT FEAR
    for it GOD spared not the natural branches
    TAKE heed lest he spare not thee.
    BEHOLD then the GOODNESS and Severity of GOD
    GOODNESS towards us who walk by faith and have been graffed into the TREE, severity towards those who DID NOT and were taken out. BUT GOD is able to graff them in again .
    again Be not highminded BUT FEAR………….
    for if any continue NOT in HIS goodness they too shall be cast out.
    Even as paul would say later……….
    I keep my body under subjection…………………LEST too even after i have preached the gosple , i too should be a castaway.
    THUS endure faithful in CHRIST, and understand
    that CHRIST is NOT the ministir of sin.
    HE who walks after the flesh……………………Christ is NO LONGER
    his ministir…………and the end is death.
    THUS if any sees a brother or a sister in a sin………….
    GET THEM OUT QUICK.
    and understand ye shall have saved a SOUL from death.
    Not too many preachers saying it like this anymore.
    BUT i will have NO mans blood upon my hands……….
    THE LOVE OF CHRIST in me……………….BIDS ME warn.
    FOR what i say to you all i say too any GET
    YOUR MINDS AND HEARTS ABOVE ON CHRIST.
    FOR behold the coming of OUR SAVOIR draws nigh.
    and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.
    THUS be found on that day…………..as you would want to be found, NOT as in darkness, so that the day overtakes you as a theif…………..BUT IN HIS LIGHT, that we are caught up with HIM.
    amen.

  159. Marilyn Crow,
    Greetings.

    There is no where in scripture that says America represents the lion. This is mans private interpretation.

    I have also heard that some say America is the eagle mentioned in Revelations. There is no way to prove this as the Bible does not give enough information to assume this conclusion.

    This is a very lengthy study and takes months to elaborate on.

    Secondly, This is not the place for such a discussion, I think Andrew Strom has asked in the past not to veer off from subject matter as it tends to bring confusion or otherwise I would enjoy addressing the matter with my “own” view. Just trying to be facetious here.

    The problem with a subject like this is, that there is probably fifty different views and everyone would think they have the right view.

    Its the “Grand Dilemma” the church world finds itself living in, and that is: We’re all right and everyone else is all wrong.

    GaryB

  160. Marilyn Crow Feb 16th 2013

    Gary B.

    Thankyou for responding & not just pot shooting. I totally agree that it is not for us to interpret the Bible. God is quite able to speak for Himself. All interpretation is found in His word for every symbol.

    I am not veering off the subject as we are talking about what the enemy is doing in the endtimes – false doctrine & I & others are bringing in what God says about those times.

    Daniel Ch. 7 of the 4 Superpowers that lead to the final Global Government – this we can all see forming.

    The Big 4 or Quartet as the world calls them are obvious to all & what I am saying is that God knew these 4 confederacies before they were formed & shows us their `beastly` nature & how they were formed.

    We have no trouble saying that ancient Persia is now Iran,Iran is not mentioned in the Bible, but God tells us its origin. It is not an interpretation but an clear observation of who the 4 main confederacies are leading up to the final global government.

    So let`s continue to recognise `cool Christianity,` & all false teaching but also study God`s word observing the signs & events etc as Jesus said.

    Marilyn.

  161. Andrew,

    This is a really great article! I’m so glad that you posted something about it! You have touched on one of the problems here in America too, but you didn’t mention it by name– the Emerging Church (or Emergent Church). It would really be interesting if you would start a blog post on the Emerging Church or give some helpful anti-Emerging Church articles that are informative and not just bash-crazy.

    The lowered expectations of the youth in the hopes of reaching them is genuinely sad. Thanks for posting!

  162. Marilyn Crow

    Thanks for your response. I did not realize the whole jist of the conversation I apologize on that part.

    Personally I think the bulk of prophecy in the Old Testament and New is centered around the nation of Israel.

    Many believe here in America that once we stop supporting Israel that it will be the end of this country.

    Many of our traditional churches are turning to certain forms of entertainment to draw in the youth as well. I find it interesting that in ancient church history the Roman Catholic Church at one time turned to drama and acting to draw people into its system.

    I think this has been going on for centuries but now the church is in competition with hollywood, etc to increase its membership is very evident.

    GaryB

  163. Marilyn Crow Feb 17th 2013

    Gary B.

    So glad Gary that we can understand each other a bit better. Takes a bit of to-ing & fro-ing.

    I also believe that prophecy in the Old Testament & some of the new, is centred around Israel.

    And yes, error has been going on for centuries as you said. How wonderful to know that God knows who are His.

    regards Marilyn.

  164. To Marilyn

    Just something to think about :)

    Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    Let us look very carefully at these scriptures and these four great beasts to see where the fourth beast of the end times IS really coming from. They all came up from the sea, which is the nations (Gentiles)

    Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

    The Lion being Babylon.

    Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    The bear being Medio Persia, and i will deal with the “three ribs in the mouth of it” a little later.

    Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    This is the third kingdom, the Leopard, and it being the Grecian Kingdom under Alexander and his “four heads” and they are his four Generals that took over after him, who were -

    Cassander (Macedonia)

    Egypt (Ptolemy)

    Asia Minor (Lysimachos)

    The East (Selecus)

    But, the Selecuid portion under Selecus being the main part/power “dominate one” of the four.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    As we read on we will see that the fourth beast is a combination of the three beasts, the Lion, Bear and Leopard. And these ten horns in verse seven are the ten modern day kings of the last days.

    Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    The little horn here is the anti-christ who plucks up three of the “ten modern day kings” The three ribs in Dan 7:5.

    We can see this all again in Dan 8 and can tie it in with Rev 13:2.

    Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    The rough goat being Alexander the king of Grecia (Third kingdom)

    Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    The four that stood up are Alexanders four Generals (Dan 7:6) that took over after him IN the third kingdom.

    Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    Notice that the king of fierce countenance (anti-christ) comes out of THEIR kingdom (Lion, Bear and Leopard) NOT the Old Roman Empire which DID follow, in history, after this kingdom.

    Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    Let us now have a look at scripture in Revelation 13.2 “Specifically”

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Again, notice the beast comes up out of the sea, which is the nations (Gentiles)

    Now compare what Daniel has said in chapt’s 7 & 8 to Rev 13:2.

    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    So the “fourth” beast (anti-christ) is like unto a Leopard (Grecian kingdom, third beast)

    And has the feet of a Bear, (The Medio Persian kingdom, second beast)

    And has the mouth of a Lion (Babylon, first beast)

    So the fourth beast is made up of the first three, Lion, Bear and Leopard and we know that the Old Roman Empire did follow in history after the Leopard (Grecian kingdom) But as shown here in scripture, the forth beast is not made up of this Old Roman Empire, it is made up of the first three Empires.

    In this study we can see how one single verse in Revelation agrees PERFECTLY with Dan 7& 8.

  165. The seven heads (Kingdoms/Empires)

    1) Egypt

    2) Assyria

    3) Babylon

    4) Medio Persia

    5) Greece

    6) Old Roman Empire

    7) (The million dollar question?) :)

    Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    Seven Kingdoms/Empires

    17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    Five are fallen –

    1) Egypt

    2) Assyria

    3) Babylon

    4) Medio Persia

    5) Greece

    One is – 6) Old Roman Empire in Johns day, and one is yet to come, the seventh.

    17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    The ten horns are ten modern day kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; Three of these will be plucked up (Dan 7:5, Dan 7:8)

  166. Melanie Feb 17th 2013

    May I join in the discussion and thank you brother Andrew for the article to start the thread.
    Now that I have grown in the Lord but having to leave a restorationist church because the leadership would not allow me to share or give a Word from the Lord, I understand how such churches use entertainment to attract and deceive people today and to include church membership.
    I saw how members were controlled, used, with scripture verses taken out of content – similar to Roman Catholics, JWs and Mormons.
    I have been to other churches in my area and similar things are being used to control church members. One current fad going on is this word called being “discipled” which may look good on paper but is usded out of content what Christ meant. Many church members are not even born again or filled with the Spirit of God but go or attend church meetings for years on end with their church ministers daring not calling them to Repentance due to them leaving their church, losing the money they give, or going to another church for the sake of religion.
    This is what going to church has become so how can such people be “discipled” when they are not walking with the Lord Jesus Christ. So I do understand what has been shared on this web site so far. Many do not understand what either the Rapture is or what lies ahead during the Great Tribulation which very few ministers are preaching or just ignore. Most of the messages I heard at church was being loved into the Kingdom rather than Repentance and becoming a church member one has to submit to church authority and accept the church’s mission and projects. The mission, by the way, was to establish similar churches with similar types of leadership. They claimed that this the New Testament church was all about. But the reality is, that they do not resemble anything like the New Testament church of the bible. For everything was controlled, a clique ran the projects, and those who had high profile jobs in the world, were selected as church leaders and house groups leaders under the authority of the minister and the chosen pastors of the church. The minister, for example had his own secretary and to get an appointment to see or talk to him, even urgent, would take days or weeks for a response. He had a large salary with expenses thrown in.
    I have noticed similarities with many charismatic and Word of Faith leaders who use tv stations what I call “fleecing the flock.” A lady friend of mine who is deciding to leave her charismatic church has found out that the minister and his wife receive a yearly salary of £80,000 plus expenses. This was found out on the Charity Commission’s web site as the well known group of churches are registered as charities. And yet, christians like myself, and to include yourselves, are expected to accept this as normal.
    There are no churches in my area who preach Christ crucified outside of their church buildings. And what they preach inside is luke warm. Not many unsaved people are prepared to go to church anymore and Repentance has become a byword which so many believers have pointed out on Andrew’s web site.
    For years as a believer, I have not seen a world wide revival in church or outside in my country called Great Britian. I do not foresee a world wide revival of any sort which is proclaimed on christian tv stations.
    What I have seen and expereinced is a falling away which scripture prophesies.
    I now go to peoples houses whereby believers are walking with Jesus and obey His Commission. You may call this a christian home group. We care and support one another and share the Gospel message with folk we meet and talk to, even those are go to church for the religious experience.
    And yes, someone on this thread made a comment about Plymouth Brethren/Strict Brethren. I have met them too and have been given an invitation to go to their church. They now allow use of computers and the internet plus mobile phones. They want to bring their church into the 21st century. But their church services are led by a few selective menfolk. Not much life at their church services. Like with JWs church services, reminds me of going to a funeral!
    To join, I have to be interviewed and must submit to their church authority, and wear the traditional head scarf both inside and outside of church – their approach being lady like and their interpretation of women being submitted to God and the Plymouth Brethren church.
    Sorry for going on but I had to make my comments.
    I may yet come back later or give my comments on another topic. So please don’t be afraid to make any comments I have shared. Very much appreciated and God Bless!

  167. Pastor Keith Feb 17th 2013

    Having shared the Word of God on Andrew’s web site beforehand, may I share this Word below with Melanie and other brethren who are following the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Melanie – I have empathy where you have opened your heart to those reading and responding on the web site.

    “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:7

    This verse comes in a chapter that Paul wrote to young Timothy, concerning the perilous times that would come in the last days. That word ‘PERILOUS’ has the shades of meaning, ‘DIFFICULT’ ‘DANGEROUS’ ‘FURIOUS’ and ‘FIERCE’ That is a description of these very times in which we are living.

    One of the things that mark out this generation is KNOWLEDGE.

    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end; when many shall run to and fro, and KNOWLEDGE shall be increased.” Daniel 12:4

    There is nothing wrong with KNOWLEDGE, but what is lacking today is WISDOM to know what to do with the KNOWLEDGE we have, because the wisdom of this world is FOOLISHNESS in the eyes of God.

    “….hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?” 1 Corinthians 1:20b

    There is only one source of true WISDOM, and that source is GOD.

    “If any of you lack WISDOM, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given.” James 1:5

    Only Godly wisdom is worth having! But how many today seek after WISDOM from God?

    “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:7

    Churches today are full of such preachers and pastors. Full of KNOWLEDGE, yet lacking TRUTH. I’ve witnessed preachers who who appear to take a library of books with them into the pulpit to preach, when all that is needed is a sound copy of the BIBLE! With today’s internet, there is a host of knowledge that spills over into the pulpits of Churches, the stream of knowledge is never ending, but the wisdom of God sadly lacking. I’ve even known preachers to print their sermon off from the Internet, then stand up and just read it out! That is NOT preaching! True preaching should be more HEART KNOWLEDGE than HEAD KNOWLEDGE.

    “Thy WORD have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee” Psalm 119:11

    Get the precious word of God in your heart! It may be that your heart needs a clean out. For it is out of the heart that proceeds the things that defile a man. (Matt. 15:18) God is in the business of cleansing hearts, why not allow Him to do a work in you?

    “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:7

    People don’t come to a knowledge of the truth because they approach KNOWLEDGE from the wrong source. They are ‘EVER LEARNING’ but never arrive at THE TRUTH because they start in the wrong place. The only true source of TRUTH is God’s precious word, because it reveals JESUS who is “The WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE” (John 14:6)

    If we approach knowledge from the worldly sources, such as science, we shall never come to a knowledge of the truth.

    “O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED; which some professing, have erred concerning the faith.” 1 Timothy 6:20-21

    I pray that God will open your spiritual eyes to these things, that you will understand and take them into your heart. Remember – Heart KNOWLEDGE – not just head knowledge!

    “…If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine HEART that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the HEART man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Romans 10: 9-10

    Brotherly love…..Pastor Keith

  168. Suzanne Feb 17th 2013

    I have been reading Andrew Strom’s web site and am concerned how my country called the United Kingdom is treading while the church remains mostly silent and wishing to ENTERTAIN itself by those going to church services and rallies.
    Kindly LOOK at this which was published today in the media
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279972/Anjem-Choudary-Hate-preacher-pocketing-25-000-year-benefits-calls-fanatics-live-state.html
    and READ this as well as a warning of what is coming
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279842/Theresa-May-Home-Secretary-vows-crush-judges-revolt-rushing-tough-new-laws.html
    For those who dismiss this and say SO WHAT! Can I make my comment as a christian – BE WARNED over what is happening before your very eyes. As this is the tip of the iceberg just like what happened with the famous ship called the TITANIC.

    Sisterly love in Christ.

  169. Dan 2:32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

    Gold = Babylon

    Silver = Medio Persia

    Brass = Greece

    2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

    Legs of iron = Old Roman Empire

    His feet part of iron and part of clay = The ten toes, the ten modern day kings, which have received no kingdom as yet.

    Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

    2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

    2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

    2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    The legs of iron (Old Roman Empire) i think, represent East and West (ME and EU) so likely the ten toes (the ten day modern kings) will come out of the ME and EU.

  170. Hello everyone…………..DID you all read what susan sent?
    Does it not seem odd that they , keep allowing certain dangerous people to remain?
    That immigration laws seem to be allowing easy access into
    nations ?
    IF we but knew who really runs the world.
    IF we but knew they NEED the chaos to promote fear.
    The they aint muslims ………………
    muslims are simply allowed . Much more Organized force at work
    allowing the situations to end badly and promoting much fear in
    the people will allow the easy surrender and enslavement of a
    well, how can i say this………..RFID nations.
    OUT of chaos comes order. EVER heard that?
    All is being prepared for the reign of elites and a king.
    and the time draws ever short.
    WHEN the transgressors have come to the full………….yes
    a dark King shall arise……………and if we read
    a few lines after that we see THROUGH PEACE shall he destroy many. The signs are all around that these be in very last days.
    What is all this interfaith all about………..WORLD PEACE and unity
    a creation of one religion. which includes all, even atheists, even secular in nature. Here is something else to pray on………..
    A lady came in my work, and we got to talking.
    She is a non praticing catholic, so i brought up the pope stepping down. And even though i dont at all agree with the roman church,
    i told her that this was a more conservative pope who wouldnt go along with the gay marriage issue. To which she then said
    Well if you notice this ISSUE has grown . When she was a child
    you hardly heard anything……….but as of late it seems so many
    are gay etc. I paused her, and then went to go get the bible.
    THEN i said…………………this is one of the END TIME SIGNS.
    and i showed her in tiimothy , where pual says
    in the LAST days perilous times shall come………….
    Men shall be………….. …………….. WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION etc……….. OH, the utter look of shock when she read that from the bible. NEVER heard that . THIS is why we must be ONLY in bible doctrine. OF course the churches AINT gonna say that……………..TOO OFFENSIVE, to unloving they say.
    NOW heres yet another HUGE sign. What did all the apsotles
    have in COMMON concerning the coming of JESUS.
    the answer is……………THAT they believed HIS COMING was NIGH. HOW bout that in THIS LOTT and NOAH generation.
    GO warn one the coming of hte LORD draws nigh………..
    even churches, and JUST SEE the reponse. THEY dont REALLY believe that no more. BUT………………did a whole lot of people believe LOTT…………………..HOW about NOAH…………….
    SO……………………….lott and noahs days of unbelief……
    and JESUS said he would come in the days of LOTT and NOAH.
    WE are very , very, very near the end…………..and so many
    just dont see. What is the whole of this peace agenda concerning Jerusalem……………
    well divide the land for gain is, they want peace, a two state solution etc. NOW go again and notice
    the dark king…………..DIVIDES the LAND for gain.
    YES………………………we are nigh the end.

  171. Roger (NZ) Feb 17th 2013

    Ken1 – greetings again in Christ Jesus :-)

    You placed a ? against the seventh head in Rev. 17. Have you considered the Ottoman Empire..?

    Today, we may see look upon that Empire as: “..the beast that was, and is not….”, you may be aware that serious consideration is underway to re-establish an Ottoman Empire, or Caliphate.

    If this happen, there is the eighth head..

  172. Roger (NZ) Feb 17th 2013

    ooops – please excuse typos in the above.. :-(

  173. Roger, greetings to you also.

    Yes i have given the Ottoman Empire a lot of consideration and i lean in that direction :)

    Every blessing

  174. Roger (NZ) Feb 17th 2013

    Ken1 – thankyou for clarifying, I believe that many others are ‘leaning’ that way too :)

    ***
    You know, recent events, both in the M.E., and elsewhere, can be seen in OT prophecies – many fulfilled, with more to come. If one compares the boundaries of countries named in the OT, we can see these ‘countries’, many with modern names, now in conflict, and forming alliances, as prophecied.

    Thankyou Suzanne, for those newspaper links, those of us in other countries see these things spreading around the world.

    Randall shared further, and from scripture, with the warnings that we have been given of the signs and events to watch for.

    The thread topic speaks of an attempt to make church more wordly – Paul warned of a ‘falling away’ just before Lord Jesus return. This apostasy is now, and is spreading through Christendom. This is the time to wake up, be aware, and ensure that we as individuals have a personal relationship with Lord Jesus, that we build upon the rock, the firm foundation of His truth.

    God will not revive anything that He did not build.

    Paul also warned that there would be a time when God sends a strong delusion, that those who would not believe His truth, and who accepted unrighteousness – would believe the lie.

    May we not be amongst those who are deceived now, accepting lies in place of His truth, so that we may not be among those who come under delusion..

    In the love which is Christ Jesus our risen Lord,
    Roger

  175. Marilyn Crow Feb 17th 2013

    I appreciate your thoughts Melanie. So glad you can meet with others of like heart. My husband & I do also.

    Randall, yes nothing speaks like the word of God as you showed when talking to that lady. It must have been a real eye opener for her to see God`s word happening before her eyes.

    That is why I firmly believe knowing God`s word for the endtime (of the Gentile`s ruling) shows people clearly by the word & actual observation that what God says specificaly for the 4 super powers is coming to pass.

    Thus I believe this aspect of our thread is also important.

    Ken 1.

    I agree with much of what you said. God shows us that the 4 beasts come out of the Gentiles. Being a prophecy to Daniel, (an Israelite,) & his people God is showing them the lead up powers
    in the world till they are given the world rulership under Christ, as promised.

    I think you may have missed my earlier comments as I said the God told Daniel that these beasts were yet to arise & Daniel was already in Babylon. Also these beasts which come up one after the other operate at the same time as the last treads them down

    Also God tells us that the parts of the body of the image are for the world rulers while the metals symbolise their lessoning of power.

    Roger had a good point of those in the Middle East are desiring the days of the Ottoman Empire with a Caliphate. This will be their Islamic leader. God`s word tells us exacly where he comes from – the area, region, country & city.

    Area – King of the North. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

    Region – The Assyrian. (Isa. 10: 24 & Micah 5: 5)
    (this is the old area of Iraq, Syria, & Jordan.
    How interesting that these have been & are in the news)

    Country – Iraq.

    City – The King of Babylon. (Isa. 14: 4 – 16)
    (Note the UN is been rebuilding Babylon.)

    May we continue to seek Him & clarity on what He says.
    Marilyn.

  176. Be blessed peoples of the LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Roger………………….it was once said
    EVERY plant which my Father has not planted
    shall be rooted up and destroyed.
    Indeed GOD shall NOT REVIVE anything he did not build.
    In the END………………all who were NOT of the Father
    will not recieve everlasting life, but everlasting destruction.
    THOUGH the green tree blossoms by the bay , with much water
    their leaf shall fade …………at the end, the tares shall be burnt,
    BUT the wheat gathered. YES, in the LAMB iS our life.
    BUT those in the LAMB, shall endure faithful in HIM
    HIS TRUTH, HIS EVERY WORD.
    and those shall reap the rewards of the fruits of their labors.
    ABIDE in CHRIST for we can do nothing apart from HIM.
    WHAT GOD has called abomination………….many now call
    lifestyle and consider their fruits to be good.
    BUT this will save none of the lost. NOR the souls of
    the ones in interfaith. WHICH preaches works
    NOT CHRIST. THOUGH a man has many good works
    and has NOT CHRIST………………..THERE end is but death.
    TIS the gosple of JESUS we are meant to preach.
    NOT good works to muslims and all agreeing all ways lead
    to GOD. THIS lie is of satan. And is leading all who believe
    its sensual carnal ways of a world of peace and unity to SON of perditon. FOr though a man says I love GOD, JESUS is my way,
    But there are many ways……………..this man is LOST.
    and directly calls JESUS a liar. GOOD WORKS shall save none.
    ONE WORK……………..thte ONE work which saves………….
    was told us in the gosples. and the man said, LORD what work MUST I Do to be saved. AND jESuS said………………BELIEVE in the ONE whome GOD has sent. THIS work
    will produce works and bear fruit. TIS the ONLY work one needs .
    TRULY from the heart faith in JESUS produces works.
    BUT today……………many have many good and wonderful works
    ,feeding even the poor, and coming together in peace and unity
    YET have NOT THE TRUE WORK required for salvation.
    FOR they have NOT faith in CHRIST, but faith in men ,this world, its peace, its unity. ALL of which is NOT of the Father. BUT is of the world. OUR PEACE…………..is to PREACH peace to them
    and that is the salvation of the gosple of Christ.
    as paul once said…………..in ephesians……….
    we have preached PEACE to them afar off and them that were nigh. BOTH jews and greeks. BUT THIS PEACE was thegosple of CHRIST. NOT the peace of the world.
    FOR this peace the world speaks of, will NOT love its enemies.
    will NOT give its life for its enemies. IN the end
    THEIR peace will KILL any and all who oppose it.
    and those will be the lambs of GOD who DId NOT CONFORM
    to this world, but rather were transformed by the renewing of their mind. and strayed not to the left nor right. BUT remained
    faithful unto GOD. ONLY in CHRIST can a man be made righteous. ONLY in HIM are any saved , who shall be saved.
    FOR There is no other name given UNDER HEAVEN
    where by we may be saved.
    IT aint allah, buddah, or hushi cushi………….
    TIS JESUS and ONLY HIM. THERE Is no other way.
    and i have BOUGHT the truth and shall not sell it.
    COME what may………………even the death of this body.
    THE WORDS of the gosple of truth, our salvation
    IS………….JESuS is the ONLY WAY.
    I shall NOT fear man………………….Whose breath is in his nostrils
    nor confrom to his words………
    I fear ONLY HE, who has given all men breath. amen.

  177. THis is what is happening all over more and more churches.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDBoBhIqfwQ&feature=player_detailpage
    The lady in purple knows what she is saying.
    it aint about conforming the gosple to fit the culture of the people
    ITS supposed to be about bringing the gosple truth
    to the lost. JUST watchthis. please.

  178. Randall,

    Interesting video to say the least.

    I know a lot of Christians in our area, now practice yoga and see nothing wrong with it. They say they are being an “inclusive church”.

    GaryB

  179. Tis the way now of the new age ………..inclusive it is now the way of many churches as well.
    Change, and more change. But is not the way of TRUTH.
    TRUTH never comprimises truth and calls it LOVE.
    Let us pray many come out of this inclusiveness, and into
    thetrue gospleof CHRIST. amen.

  180. Roger (NZ) Feb 18th 2013

    Randall – thanks for the link.

    Whilst watching the video, it occurs to me that although there are a lot of false teachers, and teachings, spread about now – we continue to have gems like this one which share the truth, as well as sound warnings.

    Amen to your prayer, that many will receive revelation of the truth of the gospel of Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

    **
    Marilyn – thankyou for sharing as you have – and Amen to your prayer too. :)

  181. Marillyn, roger, susanne and others……….
    I do remember a verse talking about The LORD
    being their peace when the ASSYRAIN shall enter the land.
    And the assyrian is destroyed by Christ…….
    SO too is the anti christ at Christs coming.
    THE TWO son of perditon and assyrian must be the same one.
    The muslims claim their mahdi……….will show ppowers and signs from heaven…………JUST LIKE the bible says about the son of perditon, false prophet etc.
    the buddits speak of a coming world leader, and new
    age is making the claim the coming CHRIST of all religions is coming to take form as a man. all these have one thing in comon
    and it aint CHRIST, but ANTI CHRIST. the time is nigh.
    I do love you all. and i do pray many will come out from this hour of darkness, and into the TRUE LIGHT of CHRIST, before its too late. Be blessed.

  182. Marilyn Crow Feb 18th 2013

    Thank you for your encouragement Roger it is very much appreciated.

    The road for `Cool Christianity,` with its false teaching & use of the world`s business methods leads directly to the final Global Government.
    `Friendship (Partnership) with the world (system) is emnity with God.` (James 4: 4)

    How clear is that.

    So its important to know what God says about this Global Government that is forming so we don`t partner with it plus we can help others see the `power & control,` of such systems.
    Jesus said,
    `You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, & those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you;…` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

    How clear is that.

    Ken you pointed out the final Global Government that is forming & directed us to it in Revelation 13. That is very important.

    `Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, & his mouth like the mouth of a lion.` (Rev.13:2)

    As we all agree it is not for us to have our own interpretation of God`s word. God explains it in His word. So there we are at Daniel Ch. 7 with these 4 beasts -

    – Lion with Eagle`s wings, Bear, Leopard.

    Beastly powers formed out of the Gentile people`s. So let`s look at these Gentile peoples of the world & how they are forming a Global Government. We all know of the G7, G8, G 20, UN Security Council & Nato. However do we know what countries are involved?

    G 7, G 8 -The World`s Greatest powers, Politically & Economically
    Great Britain & Canada. (Part of the Commonwealth)
    & America.
    Russia.
    France,Germany Italy.(Founders of European Union)
    (Japan also but subservient to the others.)

    G 20 – is the look of `we are working together` but the G7,G8 are
    predominant over it.

    UN Security Council with veto power over the UN activity
    Great Britain, America, Russia, European Union & others.
    who are either Middle powers or onlookers on rotation.

    NATO – Northern Atlantic Treaty Organisation -
    Greatest army in the world.
    Great Britain, America & the European Union.

    The International Academy of Heraldry tells us the animal emblem for these countries -

    Great Britain – The Lion.
    America – The Eagle.
    Russia – The Bear.
    European Union – The Leopard.

    I believe that God knew what man planned & He told Daniel the animal emblem of these confederacies that would arise & rule the world together in the latter days of the Gentiles rule.

    How clear & awesome is that.

    In His service, Marilyn.

  183. jackrabbit Feb 18th 2013

    is there anything Daniel about an end of the age before the return of Christ revival?

  184. Marilyn Crow Feb 18th 2013

    Good question `jackrabbit.` Others may want to answer but I`ll say my bit. As Daniel is written to Israel it doesn`t mention the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ as Paul tells us was a secret, a mystery yet to be revealed.

    However the Apostle John in Revelation brings together Christ`s purposes for the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations. So it is there we see this great multitude that no one can number. (Rev. 7: 9 – 17)
    The Angel tells John that these people are those that come out of the tribulation. They died of heat, hunger & lack of water, but obviously cried out to God in their greatest need & He heard them.

    How merciful is our God.

    Hope that helps some. Marilyn.

  185. Marilyn Crow Feb 18th 2013

    I personally do believe that God is doing a reviving work in our midst which will culminate with the Acts type Body of Christ that Andrew talks about.

  186. Sandra G. Feb 18th 2013

    Greetings and Peace to all. There is not much I can add to what Randall, and Roger posted. I will only say that I agree 100%, and the time for our Lord to return draws very close. All one need do is look around, the signs spoken about by Jesus are happening daily. Not many today are looking for HIS return, they are to busy with the cares of everyday life, which we are warned against, then there are those who spiritualise everything, they take nothing in the literal sense. Well, I have a saying that I truly believe, “The word of God says what it means, and means what it says, God doesn’t change, men do”. You have probably heard people say we are living in the last days, well in my humble opinion, I believe we are in the last hours. Just a couple things that has happend recently, the gay marriage act, is this not a sign, scripture says it is, the book of Jude for one, and just a couple days ago we had a meteor strike in Russia, according to yahoo news one also hit Cuba, and there was a fly by in SanFransisco, what! 3 in one day, and no warning, does this remind us of anything? shall I say Sodom & Gomorrah. I am new here, and haven’t had much time to read all the post, and I hope I don’t offend anyone, tis not my intention to do so. Randall, Roger, and myself have been friends for about 2 years, Roger invited me to this site, and I’m thankful he did. I like Randall, and Roger only want to spread the gospel, and tell of the soon return of our Lord. Knowing that HE will return should feel our hearts with joy, and gladness. May all be blessed. In HIS love, Sandra G.

  187. Marilyn Crow Feb 18th 2013

    Hi Sandra G. It was good to read your thoughts. I agree. Glad you are entering in.
    Also Randall I appreciated looking at the video you posted. Spot on.