-extracts by Michael Brown.

The biblical message of grace is wonderful, glorious and life-transforming. We can’t live without it for one second of our lives. But there is a message being preached today in the name of a new grace reformation, mixing powerful truth with dangerous error. I call it hyper-grace.

One of the foundational doctrines of the hyper-grace message
is that God does not see the sins of his children, since we have
already been made righteous by the blood of Jesus and since
all of our sins, past, present and future, have already been forgiven.

That means that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin,
that believers never need to confess their sins to God, and that
believers never need to repent of their sins, since God sees
them as perfect in his sight.

It is easy to see how such teaching can be dangerous, especially
to a believer being tempted to compromise.

… if the Lord doesn’t see our sins, why did James write that if
a believer who was sick had also sinned, God would forgive him
when he healed him (see James 5:14-15)? And if he doesn’t see
our sins, why did the Lord discipline believers in Corinth because
of their sins (see 1 Cor. 11:27-32)? (And pay careful attention to
1 Corinthians 11:32, “When we are judged by the Lord, we are
being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”)

If Jesus doesn’t see our sins, why did he say to the church in
Ephesus, “Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first
love” (Rev. 2:4, NIV)? And why did he says this to the church in
Sardis? “I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive,
but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about
to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my
God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard;
obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a
thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” (Rev. 3:1-3)

If the Lord always “sees us as holy and righteous” and always
“loves what He sees,” why did he rebuke the believers in Laodicea,
telling them that they were “wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked”
(Rev. 3:17)? Why didn’t he say, “I see you as beautifully clothed,
healthy, and rich?”

It is because God loves us that he rebukes us (not condemns us)
and it is because sin is so destructive that he calls us to turn from
it. This is the goodness of God, and this is what grace does, as
Paul wrote in Titus 2:11-12, “For the grace of God that brings
salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say ‘No’ to
ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,
upright and godly lives in this present age.”

How tragic it is today when God’s people mistake the voice of
His correcting love for the condemning voice of Satan, and how
sad it is when they resist the purifying work of the Spirit,
claiming that there’s nothing to purify since God no longer sees
their sins.

Paul wrote, “Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us
purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting holiness out of reverence for God” (2 Cor. 7:1).

What a beautiful, lofty calling. Don’t let anyone steal it from you.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-


Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on March 6th, 2013 at 1:35 pm.


312 Replies

  1. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    I have heard all my life that the Holy Spirit convicts the Christian of sins committed. So I did a study. There is not one single scripture in the New Testiment which declares the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin. He convicts the world, but he convicts the Christain of their righteousness. So I challenge anyone to find a scripture which states that he convicts the Christian of sin. If you can’t, then you must stop teaching that he does.

  2. Andrew Mar 6th 2013

    1 John 1:9-10

  3. L. Alex Smith Mar 6th 2013

    UNLIMITED Grace? No– in Revel. 16:15 John writes as representing the voice of Jesus: “…blessed is he that KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” This harks back to the Parable given by Jesus in Matthew 22 of the Wedding Feast in which was a man without a garment. What IS the “garment”? God’s GRACE clothes us! Paul writes to “not frustrate the grace of God.” and those who “do despite to the spirit of grace” and “lest any man fail (or, fall short of) the grace of God.”
    I discovered that in those days, when a king or high official gave a wedding feast, he would personally furnish the guests with the wedding garments! The Bible says that God clothes us in “garments of Righteousness” (Isaiah 61:10 says “salvation” AND “righteousness” and even uses the Wedding metaphor), and Paul tells us to be clothed with Christ… the only way the man in the Parable could have not had his garment on, is IF HE TOOK IT OFF !!! Because, he had already been given it, otherwise he couldn’t have even been in there in the first place! So this is a dire warning to Christians that think there is unlimited Grace, that they can tread on unholy ground…thereby “taking off” that which Jesus purchased for them with his precious blood! This doesn’t mean you can work your way to heaven; nor does it mean that just sheer determination and will power is the answer– for there is a certain Grace that is God’s power bestowed that overcomes sin…IF we avail ourselves of it, IF we “walk in the Spirit” not just “receive the Spirit” at one point in time. (Acts 1:8 ‘receive power’ cf. Romans 8:4, 8:13, and Galatians 2:20-21, 3:11, and 5:16, 5:24-25. This I am still reaching for– but this is the RoadMap by which God has ordained that “sin shall not have dominion over you” (Romans 6:11-14) Notice in these passages that there is much on our end that we have to do, that we have to initiate; yet, it is not through our own self-works. WE have to :”reckon (or, account) ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God” WE have to: “let not sin therefore reign (as ruler, Coke advert says Obey Your Thirst, Paul says NO! )” WE have to “neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin” WE have to “mortify your members on the earth” BUT GOD provides the strength and the ease “my Yoke is easy, my burden is light” (literally, my yoke fits– a wooden yoke like two U U’s connected by a crossbar over the top, to link two beasts together to pull a plough; each U had to be specially carved to fit against the collarbone and chest of that particular beast, so as not to chafe him and give him blisters) God it is who provides the supernatural strength; this Grace (a Favour given by God, that we never earned or deserved, but He loves us and wants to give it to us) gives us the power from Him to walk free of sin and overcome temptation– but has to be done through the Spirit, not just “putting your mind to it, concentrate real hard, flex your mental muscle” –unsaved people who are disciplined do that, that’s not Spiritual. In Hebrews 4 it says that we must labour to enter into His rest. It’s a funny opposition of terms: Labour (work really hard) to enter into Rest (not working). Hmmm. But again, it’s through the Spirit, Jesus said, “Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” In the ancient prophecy in Isaiah 28:11-12, God says that speaking in tongues (the initial sign and only consistent sign in the Book of Acts given upon first receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit) is the Rest and Refreshing which he promised: but to those who reject that “but they would not hear”. So it is all tied in together: receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues; this will give you power both to witness and to overcome sin, and to operate the Gifts of the Spirit (I Corinth. 12) but will be a Rest and Refreshing, that Jesus promised to those who are ‘heavy laden’, but Hebrews says to labour for it, but that if you enter into it, will be Rest and actually CEASE from our own works; that Paul says that if we walk in the Spirit (not just receive on a one-time basis) then we will not fulfill the ‘lusts of the flesh’ that is, the strong cravings of the lower nature, or, Paul’s phrase “the old man” (put on the new man which is created in Christ Jesus unto good works). Amen, even so, Let It Be So, O God.

  4. Andrew Mar 6th 2013

    Another scripture in reply to David Markham-

    2 Corinthians 7:9-11

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication!

  5. Nancy Fraley Mar 6th 2013

    I also saw this false doctrine being taught in a Bible school!! The teacher was telling the students they could fornicate, drink, and do what they want because they are covered with the Blood of Jesus. These are apostates writing another Bible!!!
    Just when I think I have heard everything, I get a new shock!!

  6. Andrew Mar 6th 2013

    It is so scary, Nancy

    I agree with you


  7. sharon Mar 6th 2013

    Preach nothing but repentance to this generation.
    Amen and amen.

  8. Jesus did not come to cover our sin as under the law but to remove our sin by His powerful blood so that we would not live in sin any longer. Much of the church is still preaching and living under the Old Covenant instead of embracing the sanctifying blood of Christ to make us dead to sin and alive to God. God does not see our sin because it is no longer there. Watch this video for more insight: called Has God Changed? – Part 7.

  9. Is this the same Michael Brown that was so involved in the Brownsville / Toronto “revivals”? Has he reconsidered?

  10. marty Mar 6th 2013

    Great article! So many “teachers” today are teaching doctrines of demons. Grace and the power of the Holy Spirit are given so that we can live the life of obedience and love our Lord calls us to. We are not to live as our old man wants. We are called to newness of life, not living unto death.

  11. Brenda Mar 6th 2013

    While the above article is beyond what I can imagine, I just had this conversation the other day with someone saying that we have gone way to one side on grace and have forgotten about repentance and running from sin! I watch people who call themselves Christians flirt with sin and even lay in bed with sin and then get up and talk about walking with Christ. They can’t have it both ways.
    Just a few short years ago we were taught that we should flee even the “appearance of evil” lest we cause someone else to stumble. I haven’t heard that taught in years. My mother gave me some wise councel when she would say to me, “If you can take Jesus with you then it is okay”. Would we really let Jesus watch the tv shows, sit in the conversations, go the places, etc. without being embarrassed? I pray we turn back to repenting from our actions and clean these temples of God up!

  12. Paul Perry Mar 6th 2013

    The bible, particularly the New Testament gives many warnings about taking God’s grace for granted and using God’s grace as a license to continue sinning. One of the strongest (and there are many more) scriptures that warn against this is when Jesus said in Mathew 7:21 – ‘Not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven…..’depart from Me I never knew you, you who practice evil’. In the same context: Jesus talks about the narrow way and few there be that find it, and that there are many (including professing Christians) on the broad road to destruction. I believe the parable of the 5 wise and foolish virgins is linked to Jesus saying in Mat. 7:21 – depart from Me: I never knew you, because He says this again. Therefore I believe that both the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins are professing Christians – but only the 5 wise will make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew – Jesus speaks more about the Rapture and Hell more than anything else. The parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins and Matthew 7:21 are just 2 examples. What about the parables of the Great banquet (Matthew 22), The Unprofitable Servant, The Wicked Servant, The Parable of The Talents etc.

  13. Heb 10:17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge ye this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock in his brother’s way, or an occasion of falling.
    Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    I realise there are people who condone licentiousness, but God judges the heart. It is SUCH a pity that SO much Christian energy is spent on judging one another, imagine how many more people could be reached for Jesus if we showed more grace to one another.
    Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
    Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
    Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
    Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
    Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

    Hyper-grace? This IS hyper grace, Jesus Christ came to earth, lived, died and was resurrected so that me, sinner, may have eternal life.

  14. steve nixon Mar 6th 2013

    This corruption of what grace does is very widespread. The fruit of this concept is worldly people claiming to be Christians. It is what many people ‘want’ to believe…having itching ears…to hear only what they want to hear.

  15. Christian journalist Mar 6th 2013

    What else will the modern western christian church have regarding false teaching with HYPER GRACE added to the list.
    We have been discussing homosexuality which parts of the church allows.
    We have been discussing the occult signs and wonders which allowde to manifest with no discernment.
    We have been discussing how entertainment is being used to attract bums on seats.
    We having been discussing how christians use christians to force them to leave because erroneous teachings have taken a stranglehold of churches.
    We have been discussing the effects of false prophecy being uttered in church whereby the name of Jesus is being used for acceptance.
    We have been discussing rather than a great world wide revival coming our way there has a a falling away instead.
    All of these things are being HYPED UP by paid hirelings who are supposed to be shepherds.
    And finally, we have been discussing how the sheep are being fleeced with the prosperity doctrine by those are are building mega churches and empires for their own personal useage.
    It is no wonder the church is in turmoil and disarray and has become a laughing stock with more laughter yet to come.
    The word REPENTANCE has been shelved and binned a long time ago by those professing to be christian leaders and christians.
    So where do we as believers go from here?

  16. Shirley Hoster Mar 6th 2013

    Everyday we witness Scripture being fulfilled, This is a new one, and we all must take heed.
    2 Tim 4:3,4 itching ears.

  17. L. Alex Smith Mar 6th 2013

    But Grace and the RIGHT kind of Judgement go hand in hand! “Judge not, lest ye be judged” (Matt. 7:1) is the word KataKrino, “to judge down” i.e. to condemn. But Jesus also says, in John 7:24 “Judge with righteous judgement”. This word is DiaKrino, “to judge through” i.e. to discern. And in Hebrews 5:14 it says that “strong meat [i.e. heavy-duty teaching, deep things of the Spirit, etc] belongs to those who are mature, “of full age”– who, by reason of use [practise, you don’t just get this by listening to a seminar] have their senses exercised, or trained, to the discerning of good and evil.” What kind of senses? The five senses? No, everyone can see with their eyes and hear with their ears…it has to be Spiritual Senses, a sensitivity in the spirit. And it increases in sensitivity with USE. So yes, you must Judge, DiaKrino style, and that will lead to knowing what is right or wrong in the spirit– even if the WORDS sound right! Smooth talkin’ preachers, even quoting Scripture, but coming from the wrong spirit. In II Chronicles 25:2 it says that King Amaziah “did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect [or, right] heart.” That’s judging; discerning, the kind that the Lord has called us to.

  18. Kathleen in WA State Mar 6th 2013

    Indeed, it is one thing to say “There is no sin God cannot forgive (apart from rejecting Him).”, and an altogether different matter to say “God is OK with our sin.” Hyper-grace winks at sin. Love reveals it in order to cleanse us from it. Otherwise, what possible reason would there be for sanctification?

    Grace & truth are forever married.

  19. We hear the word “grace” every time Christians are together it seems and the typical definition given is : unmerited favour. We did a search through the Strongs for the biblical meaning of grace and it fits its usage much better than the current “unmerited favour” which I think can spill easily into this kind of error. It means ” the divine influence upon the heart and it’s reflection in the life” …..Nothing we can do can save us of course but it is the continuing work of ” grace” that is the sanctifying process, to conform us to the image of God’s Son.

    This lascivious doctrine permeates the present day church. I remember in the early nineties when the first of my friends began to get into it… leaven it has leavened the whole lump it seems.

  20. Amen and Amen!
    I’ve been frustrated with the Hyper Grace message for a while. It’s usually preached with “You can’t lose your salvation” resulting in what Moody, Edwards, and Spurgeon, among others, called
    “false converts”.
    “Can I lose my salvation?”
    “Is any sin I commit covered by grace?”
    These are questions that betray a wrong heart attitude.
    It’s like asking “Is it OK to cheat on my wife?”
    “Will she divorce me if I do?”
    The real question is “Do I love God?”
    “What is my heart attitude toward God?”
    Grace covers our mistakes and shortcomings, but it’s not a license to do as we please.
    Grace is a license that enables us to do what God wants us to do.

  21. jim mccollam Mar 6th 2013

    This hyper-grace message is the same one used by Satan in the garden. Sin won’t kill you Eve darling, just look at the big teddy bear sitting on the throne, he loves you.

    Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet you say, wherein have we wearied him? when you say, every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, where is the God of judgment?

    Don’t be deceived, the King is returning for a pure bride and the foolish who refuse to prepare for the wedding will be turned away.

  22. Anna M. Mar 6th 2013

    Goodness, I haven’t heard of this twisting of Scripture until now. I know beyond a doubt that the Holy Spirit grieves me deeply when I sin. How? Because there is no good thing within me, being capable/desirous of grieving and convicting apart from His righteousness in me. Would that not be the pot calling the kettle black? This will be a very enlightening blog. Thanks Andrew, as well as all you posters ;D

  23. waiting Mar 6th 2013

    I’ve lamented the very things Michael Brown brings up in this article for a long time. It is indeed false teaching to say that you have no more need of confession and repentance of sin, after one becomes a believer.

    All through Paul’s teachings, he addrssd isseus of sin in each epistle. He also taught of the great riches we have in Christ, but if we will simply read the straight forward Word, it’s all there.

    BTW, Michael Brown taught holiness at Brownsville. Many people came to conversion and repentance there. He is a very good teacher.

  24. We appreciate the burden of Micheal Brown to write these new articles on what he coins “hyper-grace”. We see the larger consensus of christendom in the West gravitating to these teachings which is harming the body of Christ and its effectiveness.

  25. Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 3,4

    We are all to contend with certain ungodly persons, who are IN the church, for the true faith which is focused on the true grace of God. Not a perverted version of grace that gives you license or permission to sin. It’s not hyper grace, it’s perverted grace, a false explanation of grace. Grace defined as an excuse to sin instead of as a path to freedom from sin that Jesus teaches in John 8:30-36 and Paul’s Gospel teaches in Rom 6-8. It’s the gospel of grace, meaning that God has taken up our cause to free us from the condemnation of sin.

    Grace begins with the background of Law and God acting in my behalf to resolve my failure to keep God’s Law. That’s the principle of grace, God acting in my behalf, which is effective only when I believe.

    Grace begins as God’s solution to my Law problem because I can’t keep the Law, therefore I am cursed. “Law came through Moses, Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”. It’s Jesus who came to fulfill the Law in my behalf and redeem me from the curse of the Law so that I could have life. That’s grace, see? God doing for me. Then the next step in grace, the Holy Spirit comes to live in me. Grace now becomes defined as ability, capacity, enablement, empowerment. Grace is now the very capacity of God in my life. He’s the Spirit of Grace.

    2 Cor 9:8
    God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed

    Grace is now God in me, by His Spirit, empowering me to accomplish what He has told me to do in His word. “It’s God that worketh in you to will and to do”. That’s grace. The perversion of grace that Jude 4 speaks of is grace as an excuse not to do what I am commanded to do. In other words failure is acceptable to God.

    The greatest deception, that is rampant in christendom today, as far as the perversion of grace goes, is that grace is presented as a means whereby we will not be accountable before God for our sins when it is exactly the opposite. God’s grace has made us totally accountable because we have the capacity through faith to do His will but through unbelief we turn back from what is promised us through grace. It’s an insult to God’s gospel and the Spirit of grace to think that God can’t or won’t deliver us from such a great peril of sin.

    Heb 10:26,29,30
    26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins…
    29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

  26. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    1 john 1 9 and 10 do not state that the Holy Spirit convicts the Christian of sin. Nor does 2 Cor 7 9-11. Again, find me a scripture which says it is the role or operation of the Holy Spirit to convict Christians of sin. In the book of John, when Jesus tells us of the coming comforter, he had every opportunity to say that the Holy Spirit will convict you of sin. But he only made reference to the World.

  27. Anna M. Mar 6th 2013

    @ David Markham

    Re: I have heard all my life that the Holy Spirit convicts the Christian of sins committed. So I did a study. There is not one single scripture in the New Testament which declares the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin. He convicts the world, but he convicts the Christian of their righteousness. So I challenge anyone to find a scripture which states that he convicts the Christian of sin. If you can’t, then you must stop teaching that he does.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    David, Are we still sinning, either consciously or unconsciously ? Sins of commission or omission (neglected good doing)? This scripture promises that He will/is show/ing us all truth, therefore he MUST be convicting us of sin, as we are “in-truth” guilty ! Either that, or God just lied?

  28. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Anna, this scripture has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin. This has to do with making the word alive to us and giving us understanding of it’s revelation. Remember, when you became in Christ, you are a new creation. You no longer have a sin nature. If you sin, you are going against your new nature in Christ. You made a huge leap from showing us all truth to he must be convicting us of sin. The only Truth is god’s word, that’s it.

  29. Marc Wildman Mar 6th 2013


    Common sense and a thorough knowledge of the scriptures would tell us that this ‘hyper-grace’ concept is simply more exploitation of God’s Holy Writ. It’s nothing more than circumventing the original plan.

    Such as Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. God gives us a little at a time, so that we may compare, study, take into account that all scriptures are supported one upon another. If you pull certain scriptures out of context and do not apply the totality of there combined message(s), then you can easily concoct just about anything?

    The Holy Spirit is all about instructing us in every way so that we may become sanctified. His mission is all about sanctification. Grace is the propitiation, the completed promise or the one-time sacrifice Jesus offered on the cross on all our behalf. However, it requires our agreement combined with our willingness to allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us unto salvation. Faith without works is dead, would tell you there is some action required on our part. It’s about a right balance and not intending or willfully abusing our grace privileges.

    There are always those who want to push the limit in sinning so that grace may abound. If we can spend so much time drafting our own version(s), or adding or taking a way from the scriptures. How about just ceasing from all striving and allow the HS to have His way with us? The spirit of the enemy or anti-Christ is always about stretching, concocting, rewriting the script and it’s not going to tell the whole story.

    At the end of the day we can either obey God and allow Him to perfect all that concerns us or take the wide road of deception. It may work down here to some degree but on the day of reckoning, I am afraid at best it will never suffice.


  30. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    David Markham has said the following:

    “You no longer have a sin nature. ”

    Please show us the scriptures that state that.


  31. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    This article is very appropriate and right on target!

    Notice in the last 2 articles about homosexuality, that the word ABOMINATION was thrown around quite often and most believe that homosexuality was a GREATER SIN because it was called an ABOMINATION.

    Please feel free to look up ALL the instances of the word ABOMINATION in the entire bible.

    PARTICULARLY, Leviticus. Leviticus is the LAW OF GOD. There are MANY things called ABOMINATIONS in Leviticus….MANY of which we “christians” EAT DAILY.

    But, I’m sure that people will start posting “But we are no longer under the LAW”! But Leviticus is also where it states that homosexuality is an ABOMINATION. Yet, you say THAT LAW IS STILL IN AFFECT.

    The definition of ABOMINATION is the following:


    1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
    a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
    b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

    So in other words, if you are harboring ANY SIN, ANY IDOL, ANY WICKEDNESS in your life……it is considered and ABOMINATION to God.

    Good luck with convincing God that your sin is not as bad as the other guys sin.

    EVERY sin brings death and brought death to all mankind and to Jesus Christ.

    I mean really…all Adam and Eve did was eat an apple!

  32. Daniel Mar 6th 2013

    Great article! Needs to be repeated often.

    To answer Markham’s first post – note that Jesus said after He left the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth (Jn 16:13). That includes truth about our own sin. It doesn’t make sense that the Spirit would convict sinners of sin, then after we are born again and He comes into our life to guide us that He would stop dealing with sin. The Bible teaches that the Spirit battles against the lusts of the flesh within the Christian (Gal 5:16-17) – I don’t see how conviction could not be included in that.

    To answer “Lightning Storm” – I’m not going to debate the idea of eradication of the sin nature, but where did you get the idea that it is impossible to sin without a sin nature? Adam did, and so did Lucifer. Show me a verse that says the sin nature causes all sin.

  33. michelle d. Mar 6th 2013

    Tading Places with… JESUS!

    Crucifixion… The Reality of 3 Crosses!

    Which one are you on?

    This needs to be the mesage to the churches…

    Most are only Religious… Most churches are full of…
    People who SHALL BE SAVED

    The Just shall live by Faith… The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen… Power to overcome our sins… By Faith… through grace or grace through faith.

    Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    We have alot of SHALL BE SAVED people in the CHURCH..!

    They are not saved yet… They shall be saved when they give it up for JESUS…

    We are NOT SAVED… Until we REPENTdie to self…

    So most people are not saved… They are SHALL BE SAVED… When with their last breath… they REPENT…
    and… TRADE PLACES with
    … JESUS!

    CRUCIFXION… REALITY… of 3 Crosses…
    Which one are you on?

    We are SAVED when we REPENT & DIE to SELF to the WORLD!

    TRADE PLACES with JESUS… and are Washed… By the BLOOD of the LAMB!

    CHRIST in YOU the HOPE of GLORY…



    TODAY… is the DAY of SALVATION…

    Today you… SHALL BE… with me in PARADISE

    Rev_20:6 BLESSED and HOLY is HE that HATH PART in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath NO POWER, but they SHALL BE priests of GOD and of CHRIST, and SHALL RIEGN with him a THOUSAND years.

    The MURDER’s Cross… The WORLD… a Thief

    The… WORLD says; If you are GOD? SAVE US and
    YOURSELF and come down OFF the cross…

    MURDERS… Were libral is no more libral but vile..!

    Hos_6:9 And as troops of ROBBERS WAIT for a MAN, so the COMPANY of PRIESTS MURDER in the WAY by CONSENT: for THEY commit LEWDNESS.


    The… SHALL be SAVED… haven’t DIED to SELF yet..!

    They are on their own CROSS… The THIEF…
    Still under the LAW…


    With thier LAST BREATH… yield to FAITH… of JESUS Christ!

    TODAY… is the DAY of SALVATION…

    Today you… SHALL BE… With me in PARADISE! RESURRECTION… NOW..!

    They had not REPENTED they only made a profession of FAITH!

    Mat_15:8 THIS PEOPLE…(SHALL BE’s) draweth nigh (COME CLOSE) to me with their MOUTH, and HONORETH ME with THIER … LIPS; but their HEART is FAR from ME.

    Have you just made a lip service to JESUS… if so… and you die you are under the law… WITH OUT professing JESUS with your LAST BREATH you will… go TO HELL..!

    CRUCIFXION… REALITY… of 3 Crosses…

    Which one are you on?


    Joh_3:3 JESUS answered… HIM, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE the KINGDOM of GOD.

    Joh_10:9 I AM the DOOR: by me if any man ENTER IN, he shall be SAVED, and shall go in and out, and FIND PASTURE.

    2Co_5:17 If ANY MAN be in CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away(CHANGED); behold, all things are become new.(Ressurected… Changed… Recreated)

    1Co_15:51 BEHOLD, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we SHALL all be CHANGED,

    1Co_15:52 In a MOMENT, in theTWINKLING of an EYE, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPETshall SOUND, and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible, and we SHALL BE changed.

    Isa_45:22 LOOK unto me(Jesus..Yehova Saves) BE ye SAVED, all the ENDs of the EARTH: for I AM… GOD, and there is NONE ELSE.

    Rev_19:1 After these things I HEARD a GREAT VOICE of much people in HEAVEN, saying, ALLELUIA; SALVATION, and GLORY, and HONNOR, and POWER, unto the LORD our GOD:

    Rev_19:11 I saw HEAVEN OPENED … BEHOLD a

    Rev_20:6 BLESSED and HOLY is HE that HATH PART in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath NO POWER, but they SHALL BE priests of GOD and of CHRIST, and SHALL RIEGN with him a THOUSAND years.

    The WORLD + MurderThe MURDER’s Cross… The WORLD

    The… WORLD says; If you are GOD? SAVE US and
    YOURSELF and come down OFF the cross…

    MURDERS… Were libral is no more libral but vile..!

    Hos_6:9 And as troops of ROBBERS WAIT for a MAN, so the COMPANY of PRIESTS MURDER in the WAY by CONSENT: for THEY commit LEWDNESS.

    The SHALL be SAVED + The Thief’s

    Mat_15:8 THIS PEOPLE…(SHALL BE’s) draweth nigh (COME CLOSE) to me with their MOUTH, and HONORETH ME with THIER … LIPS; but their HEART is FAR from ME.

    i always thought that… churches had mostly saved PEOPLE… i have been COMPLETELY… HEARTBROKEN… When i relized… That truely the CHURCH is FULL of RELIGIOUS people who SHALL be SAVED… RELIGIOUS and UNREPENTANT…

    Joh_10:8 ALL that ever came before me are THIEVES and ROBBERS: but the MY did NOT HEAR them.

    1Co_6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor… covetous, nor… drunkards,
    nor… REVIALERS, nor… extortioners, SHALL INHERET… The
    … kingdom of God.

    Luk_19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My HOUSE… is the HOUSE of PRAYER: but YE… Have made it a DEN of THIEVES

    So… What Cross are you on?

  34. chas351 Mar 6th 2013

    David Markham

    Spurgeon sums it all up…

    “Ye must be born again.” — John 3:7
    Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are “born again,” for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being “born again,” is a matter so mysterious, that human words cannot describe it. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been “born again,” your acknowledgment will be, “O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, thou art my spiritual Parent; unless thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day ‘dead in trespasses and sins.’ My heavenly life is wholly derived from thee, to thee I ascribe it. ‘My life is hid with Christ in God.’ It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me.” May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.

  35. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    Good word Michelle d.

    Daniel, that is a very good question and thought.

    What do born again people have that Adam and Eve and Lucifer/Satan didn’t have at the time of their sin?

    The born again person has what Jesus Christ has………THE POWER TO OVERCOME SIN….THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Jesus came to ERADICATE sin and OVERCOME sin because ALL SIN brings DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

    Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, but they ALSO DID NOT HAVE THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO OVERCOME SIN.

    Because of Jesus’ VICTORY OVER SIN (He overcame ALL temptations to sin while WALKING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM HE RECEIVED AND WAS FILLED WITH AFTER His 40 days in the wilderness), people who are born again have the POWER available to them to do the same.

  36. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Lightening Storm; We received a sin nature through the fall of Adam. The sin nature was destroyed through the second Adam, Jesus. You are a new creation in Christ Jesus!! Having a sin nature simply means that it is your desire to sin and you have no power over sin. Jesus gave us power over sin. We as his new creation should not have the desire to sin. Meditate on 1 John 3:9.

  37. Dear brother Mark, In answer to your question..I would like to point our somthing.. HERE IS THE SCRIPTURE QUOTED

    Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication

    Now dear brother,, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO BE MADE SORROWFUL ABOUT ANY SIN, THAT PRODUCES REPENTENCE UNLESS THEY HAD BEEN COVICTED OF SIN,, FOR IT IS THE CONVICTION OF THE SIN, THAT CAUSES THE SORROW AND THEREBYE PRODUCES REPENTENCE.. ONE CANNOT HAVE REPENTENCE OR SORROW WITH OUT CONVICTION OF SIN..I pray this helps you, for I am concerned about you,, for you sound as though you are walking on that broad road that leads to destruction,, rather than the narrow and hard road, that few find, BUT THAT LEADS TO LIFE

  38. chas351 Mar 6th 2013

    Ephesians 4: 1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called , 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith , When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended , what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk , in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened , being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry , and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour , working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth . 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers . 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another , tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

  39. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Dear Ruth: I assure you I am solid in my faith in Christ. My statement was this, there is no scripture which states that the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin. Now look closely at the scripture. “For Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to Salvation” This scripture is referring to sinners prior to Salvation. Yes, the Holy Spirit according to Jesus’s words, convicts sinners of sin leading to Salvation. But then Jesus says, he convicts/convinces Christians of their Righteousness.

  40. Austin Hellier Mar 6th 2013

    I certainly need the grace of God – I am but mortal clay and can be waylaid by sin like everyone else. What I don’t need is an excuse to sin for as soon as I admit that need, Satan will provide me with one.
    Maybe Satan’s plan to deceive millions of people with Hyper Faith (Hagin/Copeland/Hinn et al) is beginning to fail and now he sees the need to reintroduce ‘Hyper Grace’? Luther didn’t believe that the book of James was inspired because to his ex Catholic mind, it appeared to be advocating works as a means of grace. Then he saw the hyper Calvinists of his day, and for the last 5 years, used James extensively in his fight against the same hyper grace error

  41. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013


    Where does your desire to sin come from? it seems we both agree that it comes from the sin nature.

    Therefore, IF the sin nature is destroyed, we should be walking without ANY DESIRES to sin and without ANY FAILURES… did Jesus Christ.

    So, Father would not find in you ANY pride, idols, fears, anxiousness, worry, self-indulging, doubt, insecurity, unbelief, self-righteousness, prejudice, control, deception, scorn, arrogance, slothfulness, gossip, backbiting…..etc etc etc.?

    There is a difference between the word SIN and the word INIQUITY my friend.

    We are ABLE, by the Power of the Holy Spirit’s Control over us, to walk by the Holy Spirit and NOT COMMIT SIN IN THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED.

    BUT, it is the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO ERADICATE our sin nature(our iniquity) that is the SOURCE of all of our sins and replace it with the sinless Adamic nature of Jesus, which has no desire to sin.

    (For those who are looking for heresy with a microscope…I am not saying we become God/Divine. Jesus has 2 NATURES.)

  42. I have a question than,, why would paul turn that one brother over for the destruction of His flesh that his soul would be saved,, if he was righteous and needed no repentence..??? why would we be chastened by our Abba Father if there where no need of conviction of sin???

  43. let me clarify that I am not talking about running around all the time concious of sin,, that would be an offense to Yeshua, however I know that when I have done certain things that are not in line with the nature and charachter of Messiah. He does convict me of that sin,, and as soon as I confess and repent. I am in shalom.. never am I condemned…

  44. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    David Markham

    How can we overcome sin, if we know not what sin is?
    Only born again people can become overcomers.

    Father has a VERY HIGH STANDARD for the lives of His children.
    But, He has PROVIDED HIS OWN SPIRIT AND HIS OWN POWER, WHO is able to achieve that standard.

    Here is Father’s standards for us:

    IITim 3:-7;Gal 5:19-21;Mark 7:20-23;Rom 1:29,30,31

    Rom 14:23 ..for whatsoever [is] NOT OF FAITH is sin.
    Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith…….
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

    The GLORY OF GOD is His MANIFESTED PRESENCE….We are to MANIFEST THE PRESENCE OF GOD…THE IMAGE OF JESUS and carry that into the world of darkness.

    The following word “elegcho” is the Greek word for CONVICT….but also other English words in the bible.


    1) to convict, refute, confute
    a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
    b) by conviction to bring to the light, TO EXPOSE
    2) to find fault with, CORRECT
    a) by word
    1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, REPROVE
    2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
    b) by deed
    1) to CHASTEN, to punish

    Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked1651 of Him:

    Rev 3:19 As many as I love , I rebuke1651 and chasten : be zealous therefore, and repent .

  45. Here are two thoughts on grace to give an view in between what you call hyper-grace and the fear for an over judgmental God. What I call active grace, the grace I live by and what I teach and minister.

    My thoughts are on the giver of love and grace.
    Two strong hands that hold me when I fall.
    Two arms stretched out, nailed to a cross, two arms open to receive all who come.
    Come home, home my child, when you fail I succeed, where you sin, my death is all sufficient.
    Today my thoughts are on grace, on love and grace.
    My tear filled eyes are focus on the whisperer lips of I am telling me it is finished.
    Lips, heart, spirit, soul, daddy’s will, welcoming me home.
    My road will travel through the land of grace, called the kingdom of God, traveling through this side of eternity, where his invisible hand, footsteps and silent voice guides me.
    Guiding me till that day I cross the border to the other side of eternity, where his hands will be wrapped around me, his foot will walk with me as in paradise, where his voice will sing and speak.
    Today my thoughts on grace.
    Grace that makes all of this possible for a failing man as me.
    Today my thoughts are on grace, my thoughts reach out to you as an prayer of hope…
    Hope that this amazing, awesome, always to great to understand grace will touch you too.
    Today our thoughts are on grace.
    We look into the eyes of Jesus, God.

    Perfection by Christianity can be a yoke law things to do In Christ is perfection-cross done we are perfect all though still in His process I agree the Holy Spirit is making us into what we already are through the dead of Christ. It looks like when you enter school and get your diploma on that same first day. Now starts the process of getting in line with the diploma you already received. This is down by the writings of the guide to truth in our hearts the Holy Spirit. Important seems not if we fall and fail sometimes in this process. God seems to count on that and hands us his kindness, love, forgiveness and patience. But important seems most of all that we hand out the same kindness love, forgiveness and patience to others. Turning a (religious) life style of judgment into a lifestyle of passing on the mercy and grace we received. This change is showing our growth in perfection.

  46. Lance Mar 6th 2013

    Here is a longer article on the Hyper grace teaching

    By the way, with some of this discussion the reference is to conviction of sin. You cannot chop up John 16:8 into bits and have the righteousness exclusively for Christians, and the sin and Judgement on sinners.

    Besides the obvious the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the word (if we are reading it), there is correction, and rebuking – 2Tim 3:16,17

  47. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    Grace is the Holy Spirit.

    The “unmerited favor” that we were given was the GIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN US.

    The Holy Spirit is the GIFT to us, the FAVOR given to us.

    Zec 12:10 KJV
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

    Hbr 10:29 KJV
    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?


    1-Grace ENERGIZES us
    2-Grace EMPOWERS us
    3-Grace EQUIPS us
    4-Grace ENABLES us

    This is one of many reasons that we MUST be Spirit controlled, not SELF controlled.
    Why we must be COMPLETELY DEPENDENT upon the Holy Spirit in ALL THINGS.
    Why we must be COMPLETELY POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit.

    A person who is demon possessed has no self control.
    They have no ability to think, feel, or do anything but what the demon is dictating.

    We are to become Holy Spirit possessed…..Absolute Surrender to the most LOVING MASTER WHO DESIRES our very very best right now.

  48. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Lance, I didn’t chop up that scripture in John, but Jesus did. Jesus made the distinction between the World and Christians in defining the role of the Holy Spirit.

  49. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    I do not believe in Eternal Security. Nor do I believe in Eternal Insecurity. I don’t believe you ever lose the ability to choose who you are going to serve. The reason the scriptures tell us that sin will longer have control over us, is because we no longer have a sin nature. That does not mean we can’t go against our nature and sin. But it should mean that we no longer have the desire to sin. I know the fear of this teaching (I don’t agree with all of it) is that people will feel they have a license to sin. If people have no trouble sinning after they have become a new creation, I have to question if they are in fact a new creation.

  50. Anna M. Mar 6th 2013

    @ David…God would only deal with us as ‘sons’ if we were already His Children, possessing the His new nature. Therefore, if that new nature exists having already.. eradicated the old nature of sin, why would God/Father faithfully see the need faithfully instruct in righteous; discipline to obedience, his child who is ‘sinless’? Why would he have to chasten a child (proof of Fatherhood and new nature), if there is no rebellion nature within that child? There is only discipline where there is rebellion.

    Heb. 12:
    5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6 For whom the “”””Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.””””
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
    11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

  51. David Markham, I think you present some interesting issues. Conscience is the key to this issue. Conscience is that spiritual faculty that enables us to know good and evil. It is the result of Adam’s transgression in the garden. This faculty of conscience, knowing good and evil, has been passed down to all of Adam’s progeny as a result of his partaking of the fruit, a fruit bearing seed that has been disseminated to all his descendants. Conscience literally means ” with knowledge”.

    Paul says in Romans 7 that it is through a conscious exposure to Law that sin, the principle of evil in his flesh is made known. Through the Law is the knowledge of sin. The Jews have a formal event for jewish boys, age thirteen I think, that is called his bar mitzvah, where the boy becomes a man, “a son of the commandment”. He progresses from innocence to conscience through the conscious awareness of accepting the commandment of God as his rule of life. Can you see it in this scripture? Paul speaking of himself.

    Rom 7:9
    I was once alive apart from the Law(childhood,innocence); but when the commandment came(bar mitzvah), sin became alive and I died.

    Up until a certain point in his life Paul considered himself apart from the law. Not directly accountable to it, as any child would be considered under age and not accountable to law as an adult would be.

    Conscious exposure to the Law, described as when the commandment came, brought out the arousal of sin in Paul’s flesh, sin became alive, and the result was that he yielded to sin and he died spiritually.

    Note that he was spiritually alive up to this point in which “he died”. This is not a physical death obviously because Paul is the one writing about his experience, so it had to be a spiritual death. Again, “and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me” Rom 7:10. This is when we die spiritually, when we come to an age of accountability for choosing good or evil through the maturation of our conscience. We are NOT born spiritually dead as some teach. We die spiritually when we come to an age of accountability and are presented with the choice of good and evil and the inevitable failure. This is what is meant by being condemned in Adam. “Through one transgression(eating the fruit) there resulted condemnation to all men” Rom 5:17. We are all condemned to this trial of choosing good or evil and the resulting spiritual death.

    Gentiles are subject to the same experience due to the fact that, though we don’t have the letter of the law, we have the law of God that is written in our hearts.

    Rom 2:14-15
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law(of Moses) do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their CONSCIENCE bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

    Every man has the law of God written in their heart. Their conscience bears witness to them of that law. We cannot say definitively that every jewish boy comes of age exactly when the formality of his bar mitzvah occurs but we can say for sure that every person comes to an age of accountability through conscious exposure to law, either written on stone or written on the tables of their heart, and is responsible for the choice they make when they choose the evil and reject the good, resulting in their spiritual death.

    Jesus says either make the tree good and it’s fruit good or make the tree evil and it’s fruit evil. We are that tree, with both of these aspects to our being. The law of sin in our flesh and the law of God in our hearts and the capacity through conscience to know the difference. This is how Adam got us in trouble. When we sin and die spiritually, we don’t cease to know what is good, we still have conscience, but we cease to have the capacity to do the good that we know we should do. “For the good that I want, I do not do” Rom 7:19. “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” Rom 7:22.

    Now when we accept Christ, we are RE-generated, we are born AGAIN, because we died spiritually and now we have come back to life and now have Christ dwelling in us by His spirit. Christ is in me, Christ is my life, Christ has become my law. His life has become my law. It’s the law of the spirit of life that is in Christ Jesus. Bear one another’s burden and thus fulfill the law of Christ. My renewed conscience, which is a spiritual faculty, operates under the dictates of this law of life in Christ which is also spiritual, as it was accountable to the law of God that was written on my heart which, is also spiritual. The law of Christ exceeds the law of God as Christ exceeds Moses. When I violate this law of life in Christ, my conscience is defiled, unclean, in need of restoration through cleansing by His blood. This is where the Bible speaks of having to be cleansed in our consciences because they have been defiled through violating the law of life that is in me.

    Heb 9:14
    how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    1Jn 1:9
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Heb 10:22
    having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Titus 1:5
    To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

    1Tim 1:19
    keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

    Rom 9:1
    I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit

    So you are right technically that the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict us of sin, but there is an inward spiritual capacity of conscience that has been renewed in us, that is operative, that bears witness to us that we are either walking or not walking in the light of the life of our Savior.

    I would recommend everyone look up the word conscience in a concordance and study it out.


  52. GaryB Mar 6th 2013

    Grace is defined as “the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not because of anything we have done to earn it”.

    There is no where in the Bible that says “Grace is Amazing”, but as we all know, “Grace is Amazing”.

  53. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    David Markham

    Man is a 3 part being according to scripture.

    1- the spirit of man

    2-the soul of man (the soul consists of mind/thoughts, will, emotions/desires)

    3-the physical body of man

    What part of our being is born again and made into the NEW MAN?

  54. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Well put Davo, well put. The other thing I want to address is this idea that God’s correction or chastening is because of sin. Are we then saying that God would not correct us if we could have done something a little different or better? We could have handled a situation with more love and grace? Does that mean that we sinned? NO!! If we at a moment missed God’s timing, does that mean we have sinned? If I take my son and instruct him how to do something better? Does that mean he did something wrong? I don’t believe that God punishes his children. He corrects them with love and grace. God does and will punish sin. But he corrects his children. Huge difference.

  55. David Markham Mar 6th 2013

    Lightening Storm. The spirit of man is the new creation. The soul must be renewed through the washing of the word. The body just decays and dies. But with a new spirit and a renewed mind, they can have control over the body.

  56. alphafaith Mar 6th 2013

    Brother Markham, you are wasting your voice here. This lot has no idea of why they are going to be allowed in heaven. Have no ideal that the finished work of Jesus means the law has no more power to convict. Why? Because ALL SIN was laid on Him and judged once and for all. Sin is not the issue today, for it was firmly and fully dealt with. Grace and faith is what produces the godly life in the Spirit. Dead works come when we attempt to be pleasing to God by virtue of our works. These are blind guides yet have no idea how that were saved and who deserve each other here.
    Further, the flesh cannot do one single righteous thing and the new man is powerless to do one single righteous thing. Thus the Spirit animates the surrendered and yielded life with the power of Christ from within.
    Everything that is not produced through the leading of the Spirit is DEAD WORKS. Even this forum I suspect!
    Who is saved anyway – the one who believes on Christ and His work on the cross. John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
    The precious blood of Jesus washes away all sin!

  57. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013


    Where do you and I disagree??

  58. Anna M. Mar 6th 2013

    @ David Re: Are we then saying that God would not correct us if we could have done something a little different or better?

    But, that just might imply that your son is yet to be perfected. Jesus’ nature is perfect and dwells in us. Yet most believe the new man must rule the old through obedience to the Word. How then could we do ‘better/more perfect’ if there is no greater perfection to be attained than His sinlessness in us? Truly, this is a very interesting blog with alot of food for thought. I’m not trying to be contentious. This is a new concept to me. I am trying to think through these concepts. We scratch the surface of understanding our Infinite God’s Ways. I do need to study more indepth in this area. Thanks, all!

  59. If there is a law of the Spirit of Life in Christ then that means you can break that Law. You can sin against that law. You can walk in the flesh, under the dictates of the law of sin, that is death and a path to destruction. “For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die” Rom 8:13. That’s what sin is, a violation of God’s law. To walk in the spirit is how you fulfill the law of Christ, to walk in the flesh is how you break the law of Christ and sin against Christ.

    To say that sin is not the issue today is false and foolish and ignorant of what Christ warns those who continue to practice sin.

    Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. Jn 8:34-36

    Slaves of sin don’t get in and being a christian doesn’t mean I can’t still be a slave of sin.

  60. Anna M. Mar 6th 2013

    It is good that we do not need to understand all things in full, to be partakers of His Great Salvation. He has given us a new nature. We can rejoice knowing he does all things well! Thankyou, Father God!

  61. alphafaith Mar 6th 2013

    I appoligize Lightening Storm – I did not read your post thouroughly – it is my fallibility that has taught me of the infallibility of His grace. What you have written is really on target and I praise God for what you have posted.
    Grace is lifting while the law is sinking. I thank God that grace is HYPER or shall we say super abounding. The law is rigid and accusing and dark, not because it is not good, but weak through the flesh.
    Many years ago I said these very same things that are being said in ignorance on here and it was through my sin becoming exceedingly sinful under the law that I turned fully to His grace.
    I really really wanted to live perfect, it was my goal, my passion and my desire – but God would have none of it. I cried, as did Paul – old wretched man that I am who shall deliver me? And He came graciously to me revealing the source of my sin was law keeping or trying to please Him through perfection of the flesh – which must die and will never be perfect.
    I know this. When ask why I should be permitted into the gates of heaven, I will have but one plea. Because I believed on and accepted Jesus Christ the Lord. It is this simple.
    Please forgive my hasty response.
    As for Andrew, this man loves God with all his mind, soul and strength and wants nothing but the best for God’s people. I lift him up in prayer.

    grace and peace!

  62. “Hyper grace” as Michael Brown portrayed above may well be heresy, but let’s not forget.: The Holy Ghost is not a policeman! He walks in front saying this is the way, follow me! Jesus said He would comfort, guide, lead, teach (inc. correct), remind us of everything He taught. – in the process Writing Jesus (The living Word ) on the fleshy tables of our heart.
    . He said this to and of us, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you” ,
    this is not a “pie in the sky when we die” it is not a just a hope it is a “KNOWing” a reality!
    What day was He referring to? For the disciples, as it is also for us that day was Pentecost! It is the day we are also baptized in the Holy Ghost and fire, just as the disciples were. Fo me there is no greater grace (His free undeserved forgiveness and blessing) than this reality And we now, in Him, have victory (if we also continue to walk in the Spirit) over the lusts of the flesh (sin),
    The Glory for this is all His, and His alone.
    Lord you did it all! You broke me down like the potter with marred clay. You rebuilt me into Your new man. You have made me Your child Your new creation all i am is clay in Your hands! Amen!
    Pr Michael

  63. Lightning Storm Mar 6th 2013

    Thank you alphafaith for your testimony of Father’s Love.

    Of course, no problem…these posts keep coming as we are typing. Peace

  64. chas351 Mar 7th 2013

    here’s a spanner for dead works:

    i’ am ….


    >>>> Brace Yourselves >>>>


    note very carefully i said “ONCE SAVED”

    i know i am SAVED and it is not reversable.


    NOT in the flesh BUT in the SPIRIT.

    When the Book of Revelation says “I will not blot your name out of the Book of Life” that is ‘REASSURANCE’ [not a threat or possibilty].

    “there is NO Greater Price already paid for us the believer [the Blood of Jesus] that can re-purchase us back to where we once were destined”
    How is it possible for a human (or anyone or thing for that matter) take a Child of God out of His Hand? else they never were in His Hand.

    The KEY is to make SURE without any doubt you are Saved.

    The Words i speak are Spirit and they are Life.
    Eternal Life through Faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth Yeshua Messiah King of Kings Lord of Lords Creator of the Universe Father GOD the Holiest of Holy’s,
    through His Sacrifice on the Cross.

    Wear the HELMET of SALVATION (which is KNOWING you are SAVED)
    this is the SAVED Person’s GREATEST PROTECTION for their Mind.
    ~if a person does not know they are saved they will lose their head
    No Jesus No Peace Know Jesus Know Peace~

    ~many think they are saved, but are NOT. (they have hope, NOT FAITH)

    Before you try jump on me… be aware i said “Once Saved”.

    I would NOT DARE Preach “Once saved Always Saved” to a person who has just received Christ !!
    BECAUSE you don’t know how good the ground was that the seed fell on
    and only God knows the heart
    and it can (not always) take time to truly make that heart decision for Jesus
    and also a person MUST receive the Holy Spirit [be BORN AGAIN]
    This is not optional.

    NO HOLY GHOST = A PERSON IS NOT A CHILD OF GOD = NOT SAVED = on the way to hell [God forbid]
    Once the Holy Ghost comes to abide, He will abide for ever and ever and ever.
    ~ therefore brothers, if a person can lose salvation then the Holy Ghost would have to go to hell with them
    And we know that is not possible.
    Or is God a liar ?
    when He gave us the Helper, the Comforter, the Spirit of Adoption and “SEALED” us with that Holy Spirit of promise”

    True Salvation will bear GOOD FRUIT and PUBLICLY Confess Jesus and GROW in STATURE to be like Christ.
    We are born again as babies which can only feed on the milk of the Word and are then (for a time) slaves of God as His Servants,,
    then as we know Him more, (ie. grow in Grace, Knowledge, and Truth) we become Friends of God and ultimately
    fulfil His Purpose for us to be the Mature Image of Christ in this lost World.

    “SIN will hinder that purpose and break OUR fellowship towards Him!!
    knowing you are Saved and walking in sin is risking chastetisemnt of the Loving Father.

    If a person WANTS to walk in Sin then they have never seen Him, neither known Him .
    [that does not necessarily mean they are not saved – some Christians are so demonized!!!
    Sin opens the door to the devil – but that is another topic)

    Walk in the Spirit and Live.
    Walk in the Flesh and suffer the needless consequences.
    Salvation is to be worked out with Fear & Trembling.

    Salvation is Simple = One look at Yeshua!!
    [as the people looked at the snake that Moses held up]
    If a person truly see’s Jesus the Living GOD, he will want to be like Him.

    and we can add nothing to it.

    All Praise and Glory to HIS Name!!

  65. These are clear and straightforward warnings to the righteous as to what God requires of them. Please take a moment to examine the principles of God’s judgment toward the righteous. These are not issues limited to the times we live. The same types of false assurances were given to God’s people in the days of Ezekiel. This is the arrogance that the Bible condemns in God’s people, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought to think. Thinking we are above being judged and condemned for our sins because we are God’s people.

    This was Israel’s downfall. Pride. “We are the people of God, the seed of Abraham, His chosen. We have a covenant with God, in our flesh no less. We have the oracles of God. This is the city of God, the temple of God, the house of God. God lives here!! God would never judge us!!!” Wrong. God warned Israel, if you go the way of the nations around you, you will suffer the same fate as they did. You will be treated the same as them. This is the message of God to believers today. There is no partiality with God. He won’t treat His kids any different than any other sinner. No we are repeatedly warned that if we practice sin we will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is a message to His children. Who but your children would you threaten to disinherit? “If you address as Father the One Who impartially judges according to every man’s work conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth” 1Pet 1:17.

    This is where the church has lost the fear of God. There is no fear of God anymore in the church. In the Bible yes. In the New Testament yes, but in the church NONE!! Zero.

    20Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
    21However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.” Ezek 3:20-21

    24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
    25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
    26When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. Ezek 18:24-26

    30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Ezek 18:30

    12And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’
    13When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.Ezek 33:12-13

    17 “Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right.
    18When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.
    19But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.
    20Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” Ezek 33:17-20

  66. Darren Sargent Mar 7th 2013

    The Law of the Lord is perfect and good, reviving the soul – yet there are some here who have no need of it, to some it is a ‘law problem’.

    I ask myself, why do some want to rid us of Law? Is it possible that for some the law still remains stacked against them? Why would someone argue to edit the law of God out? It is an offence to them, surely.

    I hear the denial of sin, I hear the words of a superior race amongst us who think that the flesh is corrupt – the gnostics.

    The statutes of the law are trustworthy, making wise the simple, however, there are some who are too wise already and do not need the law; they have something superior. They have already been made perfect!

    The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart, but it seems some want to be a law unto themselves and do not need the right precepts. They sit in judgement on the law.

    The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. Without the Law we will be condemned to fumble in darkness.

    The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. Law brings fear, fear begets wisdom.

    The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous. They bear the nature of Him who spoke them, the very quality and characteristic that is the foundation of His throne. His Law is Perfect, how could He make an imperfect thing? They reflect His nature, they are God transcribed. To defame the Perfect Law is to defame the God who breathed it into existence.

    By such a thing as the Law God discerns our hidden errors and we see our wilful sins. To deny that we sin is to deny God and call God a liar.

    The Law is no longer the means of salvation but the evidence of salvation. God’s word is truth but how much more the God who spoke it into being by His Holy Spirit. God Himself is Truth and the Holy Spirit is God, the Spirit of Truth, and he leads us into all truth and leads us out of our lies and deception. To say there is no sin to convict in us is to deny Christ. I am unqualified to even judge what sin is unless God the Spirit reveals it, I am lost without Him. I cannot set myself up as Lawgiver and Judge – He must do that to me. He is the Judge and it is time for Judgement to begin with the House of God. May it begin with me!

    We will be made perfect; we are not perfect now, otherwise why do we have this hope to be made perfect? He is making us perfect as He is Perfect. Why do we wait earnestly for His Coming if it is not for the redemption of our souls and bodies? Who has all of this now? Who is already made perfect now? Has Christ already turned up and no one has told us? Of course not! But we wait patiently for Him. Our bodies are not corrupt; the Spirit Himself gives life to our mortal limbs. This tent is indeed the temporary Tabernacle of God!

    Even our consciences are unreliable in judging sin; we have a good idea though and are often convicted during the sin itself. But what about our hidden errors, who will reveal them? I can’t. Only God can and that is the job of the Holy Spirit. If you think you can do it yourself you set yourself up as Judge and Lawgiver and is this not the worst form of sin?

    James said, “WHEN you sin . . .”
    John said, “IF you sin . . . ”
    Provision has been made to not sin and to deal with it when we do sin.

    Look at the horror of the cross and tell me that sin is not the issue today. Sin has always been the issue, any other assertion is an evasion and a flight from the True Cross. The Cross is not a ticklist of God: done that, what’s next? The Cross is everything; it is the perfect expression of God, the Judgment of God and the Love of God. It is in the extreme, everything of God in all His nakedness exposed, and some want to relegate it as done and dusted. Look at the Cross and the battered face and deformed figure of Jesus and tell me sin is not the issue!

    To reckon yourself dead to sin you must reckon with the Adamic nature being crucified in the body of Christ into which you were baptised. Whatever Christ went through, you will go through. You are not exempt. This is not a get-out clause! This is the union He wants with us, union in His sufferings. We spend too much time getting back to the simple bliss of the Garden of Eden when that will never return; we should get down and sweat the blood of the Garden of Eden.

    If we love the Cross then we love God’s judgements, for they are the expressin of Him whom we love, in the suffering of that judgement and in the execution of it, we see God’s estimation of sin.

    Knowing the terror of God . . .

  67. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    There are those who teach and practice the Law. There are those who teach and practice Grace. The most dangerous are those who teach and practice a mix of Law and Grace. Many of those who have posted here are the later and not the former. You want his Grace but want to see and view God through the lens of the Old Testiment.

  68. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    David Markham

    I see we agree with one another that our spirit is born again and is the New Man.

    We also agree that the soul needs to be RENEWED.

    So tell me WHY does the soul need to be RENEWED?
    What is wrong with the soul that it needs to be changed….what is it being Renewed to?

  69. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    David Markham

    In the NT, Jesus REBUKED Peter. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Father is God. All three are in AGREEMENT with one another.

    Mar 8:33 KJV
    But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he REBUKED Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

    The God in the OT is the same God in the NT.


  70. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Hey Storm, to move away from our human temporary thinking and thought patterns . To put on the mind of Christ which looks beyond the temporary and sees the Eternal.

  71. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Hey Storm, did I say God has changed? No!! But how he deals with man has certainly changed. Are you so arrogant to think that you have seen and know all the ways of God??

  72. alphafaith Mar 7th 2013

    Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe… God means to permit us to fail at living the Christian life via law keeping, bringing us to complete and total surrender to dependence upon the life of Christ coming through the Holy Spirit.

  73. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Amen Alpha!!

  74. chas351 Mar 7th 2013
  75. alphafaith Mar 7th 2013

    Much is being said on here. At the end of each and every comment I ask this question. Was the message of the comment placing the responsibility of salvation, holiness and eternal life on the shoulders of Jesus or on the shoulders of the believer. If the latter – it is absolutely insulting the Holy Spirit of Grace

  76. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    David Markham – You claimed there was NOT ONE instance of Christians being convicted of their sins in the New Testament. I gave you the clear instance of the Corinthian Christians in 2 Cor 7 – and you dismissed it out of hand. Who is deceived here, sir? Here is the passage again. It is speaking of CHRISTIANS-

    2 Corinthians 7:9-11

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication!

    God bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  77. chas351
    “Salvation is Simple = One look at Yeshua!!
    [as the people looked at the snake that Moses held up]
    If a person truly see’s Jesus the Living GOD, he will want to be like Him.”
    This needs some explanation? Folk use this to deny water baptism, and the Holy Ghost baptism,substituting instead the “sinners prayer” and “accept Christ into your heart by faith” teachings.
    eg there are many who looked at Jesus 2000 years ago but never “saw” Him, likewise today
    The snake on the pole was a type of sin on the cross going to the grave, To “look” at Jesus in the NT salvation context is to “believe” Him – trust, obey, rely on, and very probably in that order! I.m sure this is what you were implying, is the pattern of Acts 2
    Pr Michael

  78. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, you may have mid-understood me. I said there is no New Testiment scripture which states that it is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict Christians of sin. Now lets look closely at that scripture. It says Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to Salvation. This is the conviction of the Holy Spirit to sinners. Not those who have already received salvation.

  79. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    David, my friend – I am truly gobsmacked that you would write this.

    Both First and 2nd Corinthians are clearly written to the CHURCH in Corinth. It is almost impossible to come to the understanding that these passages were written about unbelievers. Paul first rebuked the Corinthian Christians by the Holy Spirit in his first letter. Then here in his 2nd letter he acknowledges that “godly sorrow” and conviction had done such a great work in them.

    It is as clear as day, my friend.

    These were CHRISTIANS – not unbelievers. And yes – they needed to be convicted and to experience “godly sorrow” so that they would repent. And they did!!

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  80. Camalunghi Mar 7th 2013

    I can only speak of my own experience – The Holy Spirit does convict Christians of sin…..How do I know??

    He did it to me after I prayed “Lord, please show me my sin becuase you love me” The Lord did exactly that the next day while I was driving……..And He convicted me…….and when I prayed Lord forgive me, becuase I knew I had done something wrong….He didnt let me off the hook, the heavens were as brass………He confronted me with the person I had sinned against……..Who was very angry……When he approached me – I apologised profusely for my bad behaviour while driving. You should have seen the anger drain out of the mans face….I saw quite literally Proverbs 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath……

    So I seriously recommend everybody pray the prayer ….”Lord, please show me my sin because you love me”

    Practical, real and honest Christianity is what the Lord wants.

  81. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    A W Tozer wrote;
    “The idea that justification is imparted righteousness and that it is a robe of righteousness put over a dirty filthy fellow who terribly needs a bath and that that dirty, filthy fellow filled with cooties and the accumulations of dirt of his lifetime will stand boldly in God Almighty’s holy Heaven among seraphim and cherubim and archangels and the spirits of just men made perfect and blithely and flippantly say “I belong in hell. I’m a filthy man but what are you going to do about it? I have on me the robe of Christ’s righteousness and that’s enough.”

    This is a heresy as terrible and as devastating as the heresy promulgated by the falsely-called Jehovah’s Witnesses!”

  82. Margaret Newcombe Mar 7th 2013

    It seems really simple to me. My spirit is seated in heavenly places cleansed by Jesus blood, but my soul is separate and it needs to be disciplined by renewing in the Word of God, by daily application of the Cross. Romans 11v 22 …the goodness AND the severity of God…provided one continues in His grace and abides in His kindness ( amplified Bible)…..I for one know my day to day experience living on the earth need the constant conviction of what needs to be changed in argument there….

  83. Betsy Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, thank you for this wonderful truth that God always reveal to his children. I will pass this along to other believers. We have to stay in a deep relationship with our Lord Jesus, have ears to hear. May God continue to bless you and bring glory to His name. Much Love In Jesus Name, Sister Betsy

  84. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, you can’t ignore the end of that statement. Which a leads to Salvation. Did the Christians at Corinth need to get saved again. Clearly no, then he may be talking to Christians. But he was talking about sinners. It could not be more clear to me.

  85. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    David, my friend.

    The letter is written to the CHURCH at Corinth. The CHRISTIANS at Corinth. It is as clear as day.

    Yes – these CHRISTIANS did indeed need to “repent unto salvation”, since they were in serious sin and outside the grace of God. As do a lot of “Christians” today!!

    Bless you,


  86. Michael Deitz Mar 7th 2013

    This may have some bearing on this conversation. Something that we altogether should have an agreeing consensus. I turned to my beautiful wife of 33 years and asked, not intimidatingly, “what is THE gospel”? The reason for the question was that although I was involved in multiple ministries (I presumed they were “gospel” centered) for 41 years, I can’t remember anybody saying “This Is The Gospel”. The word “gospel” itself means simply “good news”. Consequently, the word itself is used in a variety of applications. But we use the word “THE” (definite article) Gospel referring to that of Jesus THE Christ. If I may ask….What is at the very core of The Gospel? What caused immediate celebration or anger when heard ? Was it the promise of Heaven or eternal life? The “Rapture” or The Lord coming again? The power over demons? “…. through Him FORGIVENESS OF SINS (hamartia: the missing of the mark) is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who BELIEVES is freed from ALL things, from which you could not be freed through the Law (the big 10) of Moses (Acts 10:38 & 39). This was the gospel according to Paul. The Forgiveness of “missing the mark” is at the core of THE Gospel. Paul even warned the listening crowd (most likely Jews) to “take heed therefore, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you: ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish; For I am accomplishing a work in your days, A work which you will NEVER BELIEVE, though someone should describe it to you.’ ” After the “forgiveness of sins through Jesus” message was repudiated by the Jews (Acts 13:46) Paul simply told them that he was turning to the Gentiles (that’s me!). “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began REJOICING AND GLORIFYING the word of the Lord (Acts 13:48). It is high time that us Gentiles should stop acting like these Jews.
    Mike D.

  87. I find it interesting in the arguments over the “law is dead and has no effect” thingo. that Paul in his preaching/teaching constantly quotes from OT scripture. and that to the church, the saved, the saints of God. If anything is dead it should be us, to the law of sin and death!
    Surely Paul, Peter et al as the NT was being codified taught repentance and Grace using the OT.?
    I think one of the problems we can have, and not see clearly, is the very question of what sin is? Many people when they talk of sin are identifying with the symptoms the manifestation of sin only , theft, murder, war,, lies, fornication et. al. At the root of all this huge list we can compile from centuries of history lies sin -disobedience to God – every wrong thought, idea, teaching that disobeys Him is sin and if not dealt with as Jesus provided for, conceives and brings forth it’s ultimate result – death!.
    To the Spirit filled God says “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame”
    Adam or Eve could have said “hey! wait,God did say……” They did not,. and reaped what they had sown To add sin to sin they laid the blame for their disbelief else-ware, Eve at satan and Adam at God!!!!
    Pr Michael

  88. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, I respectfully disagree. You made a huge leap in dating they had lost their Salvation and needed to be saved again. But you already said he was writing to believers. You can’t have it both ways.

  89. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    Believers who are in serious sin are not “saved”, my friend.

    There is not one verse in the entire New Testament that even hints that they are.

    Quite the reverse.

    There are many passages that warn cleearly that they are not. Entire parables, whole paragraphs and passages.

    It is very serious.

    Bless you!


  90. chas351 Mar 7th 2013

    Pr Michael

    check out this young man> speaking on sin and prayer life >

  91. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Wow, I don’t even know where you are going with that. Give me an example where Paul or anyone else addressed folks as Believers but they were not saved. So Andrew, when exactly does a Believer become unsaved. After one unrepented sin? Two, three?? Or is it how serious the sin is? If this is true, then no one is truly saved. There is then no need for Grace or Mercy. Then we are serving a God who is waiting to boot you out. You are preaching Law. A law no one can measure up to.

  92. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, you declared in an earlier post that the folks in Corinth were Christians. Now you are saying they need to repent and get saved again. So in your mind, are there Christians who are not saved? How weird that would be. I don’t even understand what that could possibly mean.

  93. chas351 Mar 7th 2013

    ~did Andrew say a SAVED Christian can be Unsaved?

  94. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    He said a Christian can be unsaved.

  95. chas351 Mar 7th 2013


  96. chas351 Mar 7th 2013

    heyhey David,

    have you watched this yet>

  97. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    Was the “unprofitable servant” in Matt 25 a “Christian”? He would clearly say ‘Yes’ and he was called a ‘servant’ of God.

    Yet he was cast out into “everlasting darkness”.

    Were the 5 wise and 5 foolish “virgins” so-called “Christians”? All of them would have said ‘Yes’. They all were ‘Believers’ waiting expectantly for the “bridegroom”. They all had some “oil” in their lamp – but the Foolish had no ‘spare’ oil.

    All 5 of those “foolish” believers were cast away – where there wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    “Once Saved always Saved”? I think not – according to those passages.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  98. To see how God works to convict even believers of sin, one need only read the history of revival. The following excerpt is from Chapter 7 of my book, “The Inextinguishable Blaze,” and describes events during the great Korean Revival of 1907, originally penned by participants who were present, and all of which happened during a week of bible study in a Presbyterian Church among professing believers.

    In 1904 a worldwide spiritual outpouring began in the tiny country of Wales. Beginning as a burning coal fresh from God’s altar under the ministry of a Welsh pastor named Joseph Jenkins in February of 1904, it soon became a spreading flame, igniting a fire in the itinerant ministry of a Welsh evangelist named Seth Joshua. Under his preaching in September of 1904 the fire burst into an uncontrollable wildfire led and fanned by a 26 year old former coal miner and first-year Bible school student named Evan Roberts who was quickly consumed by “the inextinguishable blaze”. From Wales the fire spread east, west, north and south, making a brief-but-memorable stop at an abandoned livery stable turned church on Azusa Street in Los Angeles in 1906. Finally, it burned its way to Korea where it broke out among Presbyterian Missionaries meeting with their congregations for a week of Bible school during the first week of January, 1907.

    To this day, Presbyterian missionaries still refer to the events of that week. The incredible growth of the modern evangelical church in Korea has its roots in God’s visitation among His people during that week in January of 1907. Those events are best described by one of the missionaries who was there and was both a witness and a participant. What follows is William Newton Blair’s account of that Tuesday night in January of 1907 when our God Whose Presence and holiness are “a consuming fire” came down and visited His people.

    I wish to describe that Tuesday night meeting in my own words because part of what happened concerned me personally. We were aware that bad feeling existed between several of our church officers, especially between a Mr. Kang and a Mr. Kim. Mr. Kang confessed his hatred for Mr. Kim on Monday night, but Mr. Kim was silent. At our noon prayer-meeting Tuesday several of us agreed to pray for Mr. Kim. I was especially interested because Mr. Kang was my assistant in the North Pyengyang Church and Mr. Kim, an elder in the Central Church and one of the officers in the Young Men’s Association of which I was chairman. As the meeting progressed, I could see Mr. Kim sitting with the elders back of the pulpit with his head down. Bowing where I sat I asked God to help him and looking up I saw him coming forward

    Holding to the pulpit he made his confession. ‘I have been guilty of fighting against God. An elder in the church, I have been guilty of hating not only Kang You-moon, but Pang Moksa.’ “Pang Moksa” was my Korean name. I never had a greater surprise in my life. To think that this man, my associate in the Men’s Association, had been hating me without my knowing it. It seems that I had said something to him one day in the hurry of managing a school field day exercise which had given offense, and he had not been able to forgive me.

    Turning to me he said, ‘Can you forgive me? Can you pray for me?’ I stood up and began to pray, “Aba-ge, Aba-ge,” “Father, Father,” and got no further. It seemed as if the roof was lifted from the building and the Spirit of God came down in a mighty avalanche of power upon us. I fell at Kim’s side and wept and prayed as I had never prayed before. My last glimpse of the audience is photographed indelibly on my brain. Some threw themselves full length on the floor, hundreds stood with arms outstretched towards heaven. Every man forgot every other. Each was face to face with God. I can hear yet that fearful sound of hundreds of men pleading with God for mercy.

    As soon as we were able, we missionaries gathered at the platform and consulted. ‘What shall we do? If we let them go on this way some will go crazy.’ Yet we dared not interfere. We had prayed to God for an outpouring of His Holy Spirit upon the people and it had come. Separating, we went down and tried to comfort the most distressed, pulling the agonized men to the floor and saying, ‘Never mind, brother, if you have sinned God will forgive you. Wait and an opportunity will be given to speak.’

    Finally Dr. Lee started a hymn and quiet was restored during the singing. Then began a meeting the like of which I had never seen before, nor wish to see again unless in God’s sight it is absolutely necessary. Every sin a human being can commit was publicly confessed that night. Pale and trembling with emotion, in agony of mind and body, guilty souls standing in the white light of that judgment, saw themselves as God saw them. Their sins rose up in all their vileness ‘till shame and grief and self-loathing took complete possession. Pride was driven out; the face of man forgotten. Looking up to heaven, to Jesus whom they had betrayed, they smote themselves and cried out with bitter wailing, ‘Lord, Lord, cast us not away forever.’ Everything else was forgotten; nothing else mattered. The scorn of men, the penalty of the law, even death itself seemed of small consequence if only God forgave. We may have our theories of the desirability or undesirability of public confession of sin. I have had mine, but I know now that when the Spirit of God falls upon guilty souls there will be confession and no power on earth can stop it”

  99. chas351 Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew.. i assume you read my comments on once saved always above>

    also have you watched this yet>

  100. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, all your examples are before the Cross. No one was saved by the blood of Jesus before the cross!! No one was even called a Christian until the book of Acts. I would be interested in your description of a Christian???

  101. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    I am not a believer in once saved always saved. But I believe in order to lose your salvation, you must make a conscience choice to reject and walk away from God. That is why there are no scriptures in the New Testiment which refer to Christians backsliding. The term is never used to describe Christians. It is only used to describe Jews who were under the law.

  102. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    Jam 2:19 NASB
    You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

    David Markham

    It takes MORE THAN BELIEVING to be born again.
    Being born again is a SUPERNATURAL REGENERATION OF OUR SPIRIT by the Holy Spirit…..which cannot be done by us.
    You just don’t say a “sinner’s prayer” and then start memorizing scripture.

    The Holy Spirit came to dwell in us for multiple purposes. One of those purposes was to write God’s Law on our hearts so that we can ALSO fulfill the Law as Jesus Christ did.

    Jer 31:33 NASB
    “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I WILL PUT MY LAW WITHIN THEM AND ON THEIR HEART I WILL WRITE IT; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Hbr 10:16 NASB

    Rom 13:8 NASB
    Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has FULFILLED THE LAW.

    Rom 13:10 NASB
    Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.

    Gal 5:14 NASB
    For the WHOLE LAW is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

    Jam 2:8 NASB
    If, however, you are fulfilling the ROYAL LAW according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

    People think that they are not “UNDER THE LAW” period….not ever.

    But the following verse does not mean that at all.

    Gal 5:18 NASB
    But if you are LED BY THE SPIRIT, you are not under the Law.

    What the scriptures teach us is that we NOW HAVE A CHOICE.

    If we CHOOSE to WALK BY THE SPIRIT OF GRACE (Gal 5), then we are not judged by the Law because the Spirit of Grace/Holy Spirit FULFILLS ALL OF GOD’S LAW.

    If we CHOOSE to read the bible and apply the scriptures in OUR OWN STRENGTH, then WE ARE JUDGED BY THE LAW.

    As I have said before, many “christians” are needlessly SUFFERING THE JUDGMENTS OF THEIR SIN AND INIQUITY.

  103. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    David – all the examples I gave are from Matt 25. (Please read it again).

    In every case Jesus is speaking of the “end of the age” and his return. So he is not speaking of a time “before the cross” at all.

    He is speaking of people who are BELIEVERS being “cast away” when he returns at the end of the age.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  104. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    Though your question is not directed to me, here is Jesus Christ’s answer:

    Mat 12:50 NASB
    “For whoever DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

    Jhn 6:63 NASB
    “It is the Spirit who gives life; THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

  105. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    What then is your definition of a believer Andrew? Do you make some kind of strange distinction between someone who is saved and a believer? Can you be saved and not a believer? Can you be a believer and not be saved?

  106. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    David – I simply refer you again to Scripture-

    Was the “unprofitable servant” in Matt 25 a “Christian”? He would clearly say ‘Yes’ and he was called a ‘servant’ of God.

    Yet he was cast out into “everlasting darkness”.

    Were the 5 wise and 5 foolish “virgins” so-called “Christians”? All of them would have said ‘Yes’. They all were ‘Believers’ waiting expectantly for the “bridegroom”. They all had some “oil” in their lamp – but the Foolish had no ‘spare’ oil.

    All 5 of those “foolish” believers were cast away – where there wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Let the Bible speak on this subject. BTW – did you read Matt 25 ?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  107. chas35, have done so..

    Well all, If Andrew is wrong above?…….

    what do we do with Hebrew 6 ?
    David M
    It is not what Andrew’s definition of a believer is, it is what God’s Word says about this vital matter. Jesus pointed to i.t. purchased it Peter when he received it, identified it, in Acts 2
    No one is a Bible believer (believe, trust obey) untill\ and when they are::
    Repentant.(turned around) water baptized (buried) Holy Ghost baptized (speaking in a new tongue/language risen with Him) and then walk in the Spirit. Jesus stressed this to Nicodemus. If we can not agree on fundamentals then the rest remains incidental.

    By the Bible definition most so called Christians have sadly been misled..
    Pr Michael

  108. Vicki Lynn Mar 7th 2013

    I may sound crazy but I TREASURE conviction from the Holy Spirit.

    BUT : I’m not always happy when someone ( a friend) tries to convict me of my wrong doing, which shows up my lack of understanding.

    Pro_15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

    Fear of God is a conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of Wisdom.

  109. The devil believes and also trembles…………
    Oh many can believe…………………..and NOT be saved.
    I LIVED that LIFE for nigh 34 years……………
    BUT you cant be saved…………….and NOT be a believer.
    David………………..the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT, the LETTERS
    which the APOSTELS wrote…………………it wasnt to unbelievers
    and THEN GOD……………….spoke to all seven CHURCHES.
    HOWEVER a HUGE message and in many places………..
    ONCE one has been enlighten and the FALL AWAY
    IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for them to be saved again.
    ITS not a simple sin that takes us from GOD
    ITS if we dont repent and come out of it that DOES .
    THIS is why JAMEs said……………..IF YOU SEE a BROTHER or SISTER in a sin………………………PULL THEM OUT
    you have saved a SOUL from death.
    David………………….we are our BROTHERS KEEPER…………
    IF one is in a sin…………………and dont come out
    and i promise that while one is in sin……………..they were
    convicted at least ONCE by the HOLY SPIRIT NOT TO SIN
    they just chose to follow the flesh.
    WE are also our brothers keeper………..
    IF WE SEE or know of a brother or sister in a sin
    IT IS OUR DUTY to get them out quick……….
    FEAR can LEAD us INTO wrongly accepting doctrines which aint truth. HOW do we know when what we teach is wrong
    WHEN it contradicts other places.
    And when we can SEE the simple truth.
    WHEN you have to butcher those verses ANDREW gave
    you………………SOMETHING is bad wrong .
    I fear for you in this area. Once odd doctrinal beliefs start to take hold……………..they will only worsen
    I seen this first hand with a man named PETE.
    and i seen a man who brought new age doctrine in
    and for a while pete struggled against this new age doctrine.
    BUT he kept entertaining it…………..and THEN the next thing we all knew……………I was KICKED off the site and PETE was new age. ROger can tell you , so can sandra.
    ANd i worry for you . Because if you are already twisting doctrines
    and taking away that the SPRIRIT dont convict us………..
    Something aint right at all.
    David…………………MANY are beginning to believe that in the END
    all will be eventually saved. that all will eventually end up in heaven. And they are sending men out
    to try and work on people little by little to sway them.
    They come as though they have some superior knowledge, some hidden revelation, and they believe what they teach is truth.
    PRIDE is a killer. I am just really worried for you.
    SOmething is really OFF. I dont judge you at all.
    BUT i promise i am really worried for you.
    THe spirit does convict us ……………IT IS JUST UP TO US
    whether we take heed to the SPIRIT and LIVE
    or do we make the decision to follow the flesh and end up in HELLSFIRE .
    david……………….YOU do BELIEVE in a literal lake of FIRE
    for SINNERS who wouldnt come to JESUS or came and then in time of tempatation FELL AWAY………..
    YOU do believe there is a REAL lake of FIRE……………..RIGHT? and it aint IN THIS LIFE…………..ITS FOR ALL NOT IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE at the end. FROM WHICH there will be NO Escape .
    I aint condeming i just want to know .

  110. THE walk in Christ is simple .
    ITs men who make things difficult.
    We need to simple understand
    that when Paul wrote to the CHURCHES
    it was on HOW to walk and live.
    all of them. So many make this so difficult
    But it is so simple when we LOVE the LORD our GOD
    Some make the words say something else
    and make it confusing. But they are simple to understand
    IF we LOVE GOD with our whole heart and
    Just read them. SO many are now listening to different translations, saying the bible is either outdated or dont
    mean what it says. THEY cant SEE , that when paul
    wrote, or james, or peter……………THIS was TO BELIEVERS.
    NOT to the unbelivers………..BUT TO THE CHURCHES.
    SO what they SAID was FOR THE BELIEVERS.
    all the warnings…………….were FOR BELIEVERS.
    those letters were not wrote to nero………………or govts,
    IT was to BELIEVERS. ITS that SIMPLE.
    MAN complicates things…………..because man wants
    both the world and GOD.
    OR what makes them feel comfortable………….etc.
    BUT just read it. ANd many have been changing transaltions
    and meanings keep being changed and the excuse is
    ITS FOR MODERN TIMES , that they have the RIGHT meaning.
    be discerned…………IF WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT .

  111. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    Amen Vicki Lynn.

  112. Roger (NZ) Mar 7th 2013

    Amen Randall – the gospel of Christ Jesus is simple and straightforward. Only man complicates with his Greek mindset of logic and analytical reasoning.

    Jesus was, and still is, Jewish – the Hebrew mindset is to trust, believe, have faith in God.


    To all: A few here have testified/shared of their experiences to do with the Holy Spirit convicting born again believers of sin.

    My own experiences agree with these others – and I suspect that if each one of us is totally honest, completely honest before God – we will know of times when as born-again believers and followers of Lord Jesus, we have all experienced at least one occasion when the Holy Spirit has convicted us of something we did or said, that was not of God, but of flesh.

    If we believe that being ‘saved’ is a one off event, then I think we are in danger of being deceved – the act of salvation (sanctification) is ongoing, – between justification, when we repented and accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and – glorification, when we are translated into our glorified body.

    In the time in between, be it days or years, sanctification is ongoing – isn’t it..?

    We gradually submit those areas in our life, that are still ruled by flesh and self – and surrender them over to Lord Jesus, to the refining by the Holy Spirit.

    Like others here have said – I too pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal to me – anything of ‘self’ that needs sorting in my life now.

    I would rather go through that correction and refinement now, in this mortal body – than later when I am told that something I did or said denied Lord Jesus, and have Him say – “I never knew you..”

    A walk with Christ Jesus, and with the Holy Spirit – is just that – ongoing, down the path that He leads us.

    One way, through Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

    In His love,

  113. AMEN i say…………………we had ALL be so grateful
    for the HOLY SPIRIT, Christ in us…………..
    Those GOOD wonderful unctions of the SPRIIT within
    us teaching us to deny all Ungodliness, to keep from sin, to live andwalk HOLY……………
    THIS is a BLESSING and a tremendous GIFT unto men and women. GRACE…………………..
    I love you all. And i do pray we look out one for the other.
    My prayers are that all endure faithful till the end.
    I fear for many, that now walk after the both the minds
    and knowledge of men, thinkingthey walk in the SPIRIT
    but do not. Many are being given over
    to their own hearts desire.
    OH , how i pray for us all. The delusions shall only worsen
    and the leaven only rise as the end draws ever nigh.
    I dont believe we have much time
    till the dark one rises , the strong delusion be sent.
    And many offer up and betray many.
    All is fast becoming about world peace and unity and interfaith
    and all religions being the way, all leading to the BIG END TIME religon……………………..and striaght to the Rise of the Son of perdtion. I pray for us all. AND i NEED and welcome your prayers for me as well. WE all are our brothers and sisters keeper.
    ANd we must all be on gaurd against the wilse of satan.
    Who is getting the WORLD focused on a false religon of works
    and unity and peace, ANd NOT FOCUSING
    on the TRUE work……………..WHICH is to BELIEVE in the ONE
    whome GOD has sent and now is above.
    THE ONLY name where by one may be saved.
    I love youall. But as of late, specially as of late
    i have seen it more and more. A blending of the religions
    of many who walk after the WORLD, the flesh, their eyes
    and they are beginning to come together in unity
    and are growing ever tired of those who wont SEE as they do
    and ONLY say JESUS is the ONLY WAY.
    Their anger is mounting……………….and the fundamentalist
    christians are becoming enemy number one quicker.
    WE must be here for one another and others.
    and pray for laboureres to be sent out unto the harvest.
    FOR one day SOON the harvest shall be reaped,
    when on that DAY……….. HE COMES quicky for his bride
    and to accomplish wrath uppon all WHO lived ungodly,
    who repented NOT of their sins…………..and came Not to Christ.
    Again i love you all. And i pray for us all. Amen.

  114. AMEN roger i was AGAIN convicted of that VERY THING TONIGHT. I would rather have the chastenings now
    the judgments NOW, than be led astray
    and at the END HEAR ………I NEVER KNEW YOU.
    Less than a HOUR ago. ALL who live godly too shall suffer
    Roger you have heard well my friend. LET US THANK GOD
    that we have ears to hear and eyes to SEE.
    FOR many have rejected TRUE GRACE
    and walk blindly. AND were it NOT FOR GODS
    continual abiding GRACE within us, and upon us
    WE too would be JUST as BLIND.
    THE LORD is merciful to one like me…………..
    and I THANK HIM FOR THIS. I too had felt that strong tonight.
    THEN less than a hour later YOU SAID IT HERE on this post.
    AMEN. TO THE LORD be the GLORY………….
    HIS mercies TRULY are eveyday upon us………………and HIS grace wonderful. I say and encourage us all
    LET us be faithful stewards of the GRACE given us freely
    in CHRIST JESUS……………………….

  115. Darren Sargent Mar 7th 2013

    A clue to the misunderstanding of scripture and the gospel is the person’s handling of the Old Testament. We stand in a long line of believers amongst an invisible cloud of witnesses travelling in an ark through time. The central portion of a cathedral is called a nave which means ark. All of us together sealed in God’s pitch against the ingress of the world to be brought through the wrath of God’s judgement (Just like Noah’s Ark), baptised into the pillar and cloud of fire as we esape Egypt across the Sea of Reeds. We are part of the hall of faith as it states in Hebrews from righteous Able until now. Who says no one was saved before Christ? They all looked to Christ, David prophesied of Him, the prophets pleaded with Israel over Him, Abraham welcomed Him from afar, they all looked to the day we live in now. It is by faith we are saved. Even without scripture, or a very limited canon, David knew his Lord is a way the technical Law of Moses could not reveal – it had to be revealed by the Spirit.

    God can be perfectly understood from the Old Testament; God can be perfectly known from the Old Testament and Jesus has revealed Him in completeness at the Cross. We are a part of that heritage, a true spiritual heritage not made by man. Over 1000 specific quotes and allusions to the Old Testament are found in the New Testament; tear that away and you denigrate both and the God who called it ito being.

  116. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    That is a beautiful statement of Truth, Darren.
    It brought tears of gratefulness and awe for my God.

  117. Is “seeing through a glass darkly’ perfectly understanding God?
    I think many of those OT heroes were smarter than some of us for they knew that without us they could never be perfect.
    Heb 11 39 40
    Also 1 peter 10 and whole chapter.

    And what of Heb 6 can no one comment?
    Pr Michael

  118. Truthseeker Mar 7th 2013

    May I join in and make a few comments.
    Hyper Grace is now on equal terms with “once saved, always saved” so by each man made definition so called christians and leaders of the church can do as they please ignoring what believers have said that there can and is a falling way as defined by scripture, that is the Word of God.
    Now what other term or false teaching will arise in church circles as we have already seen the implications of another gospel emerging and which has taken hold within the church.
    Will grieving the Holy Spirit as shared in biblical teaching be altered to suit mans whims and man made theology? For false teaching and prophecy are being listened and adhered to, and has taken hold very much without a whimper!
    Does anyone agree or disagree how these things influence hence changing the image of the church and christianity?

  119. Truth seaker “Will grieving the Holy Spirit…….?” If the modern theologians had their way the answer would be Yes! However we know that will not happen!
    “…………i have built my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it……..”
    Pr Michael

  120. GaryB Mar 7th 2013

    Cols. 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

    2 Timothy 4:10
    For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;

    It is quite clear that Paul is stating that Demas went back into the world. The scriptures left it at that and we never read were he returns to the church.

  121. Lance Mar 7th 2013

    Election and Correction:

    Psalm 23:

    Thou art with me; I have, in having thee, all that I can crave: I have perfect comfort and absolute security, for thou art with me.” “Thy rod and thy staff,” by which thou governest and rulest thy flock, the ensigns of thy sovereignty and of thy gracious care—”they comfort me.” I will believe that thou reignest still. The rod of Jesse shall still be over me as the sovereign succour of my soul.

    Thy Rod and Staff they comfort me….(See Lev 27:32)

    The Lord is the one who;

    Saves me and Sustains me
    Redeems me, and Rescues me
    Grace and Goodness
    Mercy and Maintains that mercy
    Calls me and Cradles me
    Kisses me, but Keeps me
    Chooses me, yet Chastens me

  122. Linde T Mar 7th 2013

    For the GRACE of GOD to work in our lives we have to be humble (God gives grace to the humble…James 4:6)
    We can either live after the flesh or after the Spirit…the work of GRACE is to cause us to overcome putting away the lusts of the flesh and to walk after the Spirit, this takes a lifetime….we can do nothing in our own strength to please the LORD, we have to totally rely upon Him in all humility to do the work of sanctification in us……poor in spirit means we have to be absolutely dependent upon Him, knowing our need of Him 24/7.

    now we mustn’t forget this…..

    Hebrews 6:4-6….it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted of the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance…….
    I take these scriptures very seriously!! we can choose to be very careless (like the 5 foolish virgins perhaps) and treat the Lord God with distain and not value so Great a Salvation, my heart grieves that there is very little FEAR of the LORD these days!!!!

    The letter to the Laodicean church is very sobering….and I think it is a fair description of the church today……Rev3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot, I wish you were either one or the other! 16:………neither hot nor cold I am about to spit you out of my mouth (um do you think saved at this point!!!) 17: You say, I am rich, I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing. But you do not realise that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked…………19: Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be EARNEST, and REPENT…….

    It is DECEPTION and PRIDE to think we are alright Jack, that we don’t have to repent ever again once we have been born again…Paul the apostle is forever in his letters encouraging us to keep a good conscience before God first and man next, we have to examine and judge ourselves often so we be not judged….

    The Law and the Flesh can do nothing to save us, saved only by GRACE through FAITH…….however, our part is to yield to Him, to be quick to repent when we have fallen short, to cry out to Him for mercy and grace in times of need.
    Romans 8:12 Therefore brothers, we have an obligation – but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it, 13: for if you live according to the sinful nature, you will DIE, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will LIVE 14: because those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God…….

  123. Camalunghi Mar 7th 2013

    For a long time I have pondered and prayed about questions discussed here…

    The scriptures are quite clear about who will be saved – It will be those who have an authentic relationship with Christ, who have been born again. Those who do not produce good fruit reflecting an authentic conversion…..Never really were converted. And there are millions of such people conned into believing they are “Christian” but in fact do not know Christ personally. Of such the scriptures are clear – Many on the day of Judgment will say to Jesus “Lord, Lord!” But Christ does not know them – they only had a fluffy version of Christianity preached to them which demands little except pay tithes, be a good church member, and agree with their church leadership. Real Fruit….. Is what God expects to grow out of real conversion, dead fish float down stream, only living fish go against the flow of this world.

    And what of those who were genuinely converted, and sincerely turned to Christ but fall into sin – It is simple – If they dont repent then Judgement will fall upon them because God loves them too much. But for those who never really were converted, were only converted to Christianity but never to Jesus Christ. Who have a form of godliness but deny its power, who constantly esxuse themselves from obeying the Words of Christ….theirs is the worst fate of all!

    As the Lord has said – He would rather have us either hot or cold – but never lukewarm!

  124. watchful Mar 7th 2013

    The falling away…………….the salt is losing its saltiness and can’t be made salty again……………..Did God really say…..?…….YES, HE DID!!……….how easily the mind of flesh will fashion a God after its own image, instead of letting the one true God fashion us after HIS true image, which is HOLY………..through conviction and repentance. How else can we be made holy without the HOLY Spirit bringing conviction and repentance, we can’t do it ourselves……………He brings to light something either in the present after receiving Christ or even of my past and measures it against His holiness, it brings dismay, sorrow, a desire to be more like Jesus………..Repentance is a gift, and there are days when I BEG Him for it, because of being helpless to change myself! He is the LIGHT, how can we see without the light? We will never seek Him unless we know our NEED of Him. It’s the salt that lets us know our NEED, it makes us thirsty for Him!

    Those that want to say the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict believers are trying to rationalize away the obvious………..if they just ask the Lord in sincerity, He will remind them of the times when He did bring conviction etc after they had come to faith, because they have forgotten, and it gets covered over by the rationalizations of the carnal mind, which can’t be trusted. It’s so easy to forget things anyway, I have to ask Him a lot for the reminders that I need, all the more so as I get older. And sometimes we just need to give our head a shake and come back to reality. Come back to our first love.

  125. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Randall, The scripture you refer to says, ” I NEVER knew you” This can’t be referring to believers or Christians who have fallen away. The key word in that verse is NEVER!!! That means they were NEVER a child of God. Can you walk away? YES!! It is a conscience choice to reject Christ and turn and walk away. That’s what it appears that Demus did. I am confident of one thing. We will win more of the lost with a message of God’s love, mercy and grace than we ever will shouting about God’s judgement. Remember, it’s his kindness that leads us to repentance…

  126. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    But David – Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

    Are you saying otherwise?

    Bless you!


  127. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    This is a good word. Thank you Andrew for posting it.
    If the devil can’t keep Gods people ignorant of the grace of God which forgives, (Romans 3) accepts,(Eph 2,5) encourages and gifts (I Cor 12-14) causes to be generous (II Cor 8-9) causes to walk in His statutes (Ezek 36)and empowers Gods people to “live godly and upright lives” (Titus 2:) – if the devil can’t keep God people locked into legalism and self effort living THEN HE WILL PUSH THEM TO TIRN THE GRACE OF GOD INTO A LICENCE TO SIN!

    But we need to be be careful to keep the VERY SAME EMPHASIS on grace that the writers of the New Testament give it. There are over 100 references, encouragement and commands to embrace the grace of God in the NT BUT ONLY 2 WARNINGS against the abuse of grace “hyper grace” in the same NT.

    Seems to me the church has been more guilty of being silent on grace and over emphasizing the abuse of grace than it has preached grace!
    Martin Lloyd Jones said, “any preacher who has not yet been accused of preaching hyper grace HAS NOT YET PREACHED GRACE AS HE OUGHT TO HAVE.”

  128. Anna M. Mar 7th 2013

    @ Darren

    Re: “<- – – – ……Over 1000 specific quotes and allusions to the Old Testament are found in the New Testament; tear that away and you denigrate both and the God who called it into being."

    Well said, and thankyou!

  129. Lance Mar 7th 2013

    It seems trendy to say that the goodness of God leads to repentance, which it can do.However in our day it seems the opposite is TRUE:

    Romans 1:21
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    And knowing this;
    Romans 11:19-22
    Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

  130. Anna M. Mar 7th 2013

    @ watchful

    Re: “The falling away…………… –>”

    Good words :)..Amen!

  131. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    The apostle Paul was falsely accused of preaching “hyper grace”:

    And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just. (Romans 3:8 NASB)

    Was Paul accused of preaching hyper grace? Why then haven’t the modern “holiness and repentance” preachers been accused in like manner? Isn’t it because they have FAILED TO PREACH GRACE ENOUGH? And isn’t it because they are afraid to be criticized by their peers and because they love the praise of their “repentance and holiness” peers MORE THAN THEY LOVE THE PRAISE OF GOD????

  132. Darren Sargent Mar 7th 2013

    But David! Knowing the terror of God we persuade . . . We may appear gentle and kind and gracious but we are informed by God being a comsuming fire. Isaiah said, “Send me!” after he had seen Him lifted up! Woe is me I am undone! But still send me once he had been cleansed. Michael, answer honestly, are you ashamed or embarrassed of the judgements of God – for they are all perfect! Every single one of them. Doesn’t such a knowledge of God and an awareness of our own sin and God’s mercy make us even more gentle and humble and urgent. Do we not treat others with the tender mercy God has shown us. If we are never convicted of sin and live under a metallic obdurate faith trying to be perfect and strong, how can we ever be the kind and gracious people you want us to be without that conviction and chastening? One must come with the other my dear dear friend, surely!? Allow God to plough your heart my friend.

  133. Peter Mar 7th 2013

    Hi again, this article is exactly right. As far as those that say the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict us of sin, then they mustn’t have The Holy Spirit.
    In 1 Cor. 11:27-34, we are called to judge ourselves, or God will and if we don’t, we will pay the penalty, which could be sickness or death.
    When we judge ourselves, with what do we judge ourselves with, but the Holy Spirit that dwells in our hearts.
    And I know that when I am tempted, I feel the conviction to resist sin, but that’s not me, I love sin, no, it’s the Holy Spirit in me that hates sin, and leads me away from temptation.
    If I sin, the Spirit within me makes me feel yucky, and I want to be cleansed again. So I repent from the heart and remove the foothold of the devil.
    This is not theology to me, this actually works.
    If people are foolish enough to believe this “New Gospel” of grace, then they will have to stand before God, on that day, and find out if they believed Jesus or man’s interpretation of the Word.
    For them Jesus serves no further purpose, as they believe He has done all He has to do.
    If that’s the case, He must be unemployed, and not really our high Priest who appears before the throne of God, on our behalf.
    Well, I’m glad that, at least I still keep Him employed.
    I’ve always said that I am the Master’s apprentice, and He teaches me every day, some new thing.
    Not only spiritually either, He teaches me how to do things at work that no-one else can do. Or, to be more specific, things I’ve never done before, and no-one else will attempt.
    I love having Jesus as my boss, He has a great sense of humour and is extremely wise. He’s a pretty good chippy too, as I’m a builder, He’s always showing me new ways of doing things.
    I love it!

  134. Darren Sargent Mar 7th 2013

    @ Lightning Storm . . . the first time I have shared tears with a brother in quite a while. Glad that it blessed you.

    @ Anna . . . bless you sis, can’t wait to spend eternity with you guys and girls, but it can wait until He comes.

    @Barry . . . I think maybe the flesh mind often interprets spiritual things incorrectly. At Pentecost the onlookers thought they were drunk. They were clearly wrong.

    @ Camalunghi . . . Amen and thankyou.

  135. Andrew Mar 7th 2013

    Barry – The difference today is that Tolerance and Hyper-Grace are actually part of the very spirit of the age.

    In Paul’s day it was “Law” that was the spirit of his culture.

    If the culture today was dominated by “Law” then it would be right to place a much bigger emphasis on Grace.

    But as things are, it is actually “sin, righteousness and judgment” that are very scarce and hard to hear about today

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  136. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    Hey speaking of grace causing us to give generously. Is there any way to give to Andrews ministry and receive a Canadian Tax receipt? If not no worry.
    BY THE WAY- how many of my posting friends out there grace up and actually give generously to this ministry?


  137. alphafaith Mar 7th 2013

    Very well put Barry! Those who attempt to know Christ on the basis of legalistic dogma absolutely refuse to believe that those of us who rejoice that grace is hyper – super abounding actually live in righteousness, peace and joy – and do not make sin our focus or use grace as an excuse to sin. We are not in denial of our sin and short comings.
    As for me I do not need an excuse to sin,.. sin dwells in my mortal body and I hate it, can’t shake it apart from grace, and at least for me, the one who wills to do good, evil is always present. Always. Nevertheless, it is not I who do it, but sin working in me.
    If I cease to preach the cross, why am I yet persecuted? Who persecutes the message of the cross? The religious, the judaizers, the law-keeping crowd.
    We get it already – we’ve been where the sin laden and sin conscience people are and live. We had to come to the end of ourselves to embrace the hyper-sufficiency of His amazing grace.
    Christ is not angry and fearful of our insufficiencies or sin. He overcame the world, sin and judgment for us and is patient, kind and attentive to where we find ourselves.
    Adding something to Christ’s finished work frustrates and complicates the simplicity of the gospel of grace.
    My heart overflows with love toward you all. I am defined by Christ. I did not even know who He was until He introduced himself to me. In fact, I didn’t even care… but He gave me a revelation of my need for His cleansing blood and power.
    There is no illusion among us who believe and trust His grace. We know when we step outside the will of God. Not because He convicts us (finds us guilty), but rather because He leads us through His goodness. Sometimes, it takes me, at least, a little time to let go of whatever my error is – but I find Him being as patient with me as He requires me to be with others. 7 x 70.
    I do thank God that my soul is not left in the hands of HYPER-LAW Christians – for love is absent in their demands of compliance to their idea of what pleases God. Yes they use the Scripture at their own peril, all the while forgetting the nature of the Spirit is defined by the fruit Paul outlined.
    How does the Spirit respond to my sin? CONVICTION? Now the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control, against such their is no law (limit).
    Jesus knows well the power of the victory that HE won on our behalf and HIs Father – our Father – is well pleased with it.
    Sadly, while the Father is rejoicing over a son coming to the end of self-seeking ways – more the pitty – the older self-righteous brother became indignant and cold with the Father’s forgiveness, love and joy toward the prodigal. He is far more displeased with the latter than the former.
    Each and everyone of you are brothers and sisters in Christ, but you are neither alike or on the same level. I have seen no comments coming from an anit-christ Spirit. Each one is offering their idea of what will help. I commend you all on behalf of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    Finally, Andrew is in India, puting his feet on hostile ground where real anti-christ’s exist and in some cases attack. Today, let us ask God collectively to give him a mighty wind of grace and power in his preaching.

  138. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew, We all have different backgrounds and experiences. I grew up in a traditional Pentecostal setting. All I heard for the first 30 years of my life was Sin, holiness and judgement. Outward appearance was spoken of often. Everything was a SIN!!! Going to ballgames, going to the movies, long hair on men, pants on women. Those things are still preached to some extent in some of those churches. I lived in constant fear of losing my salvation. There was no understanding of Grace. So the Grace message is life to me. I fully realize there are those teaching it to a dangereous extreme. But to dismiss all of the teaching on Grace is also dangereous. I don’t believe in Eternal Security, nor do I believe in Eternal insecurity. In the circles I run in, there is still a lot of law preached to this day. So it is all a matter of perspective.

  139. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    Andrew- “a culture of law in the early church”???
    REALLY ?
    Have you read Romans 1:18ff lately- that sounds more like a culture of lawlessness to me. It was in THAT Lawless Roman culture that Paul wrote and preached grace.
    Preaching law always INCREASES rebellion an sin . As a preacher of 40 years I have discovered that if I want a congregation of lawless rebels and reprobates- all I have to do is preach law “you should, you ought, you better or else!”
    But I have discovered if I preach Gods biblical grace the level of personal holiness, repentance , hatred of sin and purity sky rockets among Gods sheep.
    Why is this? Because “the grace of God teaches us to say no to ungodliness and wickedness “.
    This seems like foolishness to the wise but Gods grace is the wisdom of God and the power of God.

  140. Michael Deitz Mar 7th 2013

    I believe that the “scriptures”, both old and new from Genesis to Revelation, clearly indicate that we all fall into two camps. That is Grace or The Law. Our Culture does not change this. “For the law was GIVEN through Moses; grace and truth were REALIZED (came) through Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Someone does not have their head screwed on right to abuse this “Grace”. You will have this as exampled by the church @ Corinth but it is wrong for us to reshape The Gospel for the “I NEVER” knew you crowd (Matt 7).

  141. alphafaith Mar 7th 2013

    David Markham,

    Go ahead and put your absolute confidence in the eternal security that you most certainly possess. I am confident of this very thing, He which has begun the good work in you will complete it… Eternal security is not man’s idea, it is God’s.
    “Grace is life to me!” Yes, yes, yes it is! Oh praise to the glory of His grace! Thanks be to God who gives us the victory by our Lord Jesus Christ.
    David, come on and step a little deeper in His amazing, wonderful, hyper-grace. You’ve come this far… dive in fully! If you have ever been saved – you are still saved! Take heart my beloved… His grace is sufficient.
    [email protected] is where you may find more encouragement from me concerning the unfailing grace of Christ.

  142. alphafaith Mar 7th 2013

    Wow Barry! You got it man! You got it! I want to fellowship with you my brother.

    grace and peace

  143. Anna M. Mar 7th 2013

    @ Darren ..Fellow Saints..

    Re: awaiting eternity

    The prior post about ‘us fellows in a fellowship’ or, journey in God’s ark of passage (Christ)’. Each of us probably envisioned this uniquely. I couldn’t help be reminded of a dear man who saw differently than the mainstream flow. Amidst his despairing challenges, he penned words which have blessed many, and shall continue so. We are so limited, God is so vast! We do long for that day when our faith is sight, when fellowship with God and his people will be eternal and uninterrupted by the flesh.

    ..Blind unbelief is sure to err
    And scan His work in vain;
    God is His own interpreter,
    And He will make it plain.

    William Cowper

    God moves in a mysterious way
    His wonders to perform;
    He plants His footsteps in the sea
    And rides upon the storm.
    Deep in unfathomable mines
    Of never failing skill
    He treasures up His bright designs
    And works His sov’reign will.
    Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
    The clouds ye so much dread
    Are big with mercy and shall break
    In blessings on your head.
    Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
    But trust Him for His grace;
    Behind a frowning providence
    He hides a smiling face.
    His purposes will ripen fast,
    Unfolding every hour;
    The bud may have a bitter taste,
    But sweet will be the flow’r.
    Blind unbelief is sure to err
    And scan His work in vain;
    God is His own interpreter,
    And He will make it plain.

    Forever Blessed In Him….†….

  144. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Barry, You really nailed it my friend!!!!

  145. Amen, alphafaith and Barry

  146. Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

  147. I sent this to a few friends and got this great reply: Joe,

    Just came across this quote and thought it may relate to the blog you sent out yesterday:

    “Grace doesn’t diminish God’s desire for our holiness but clarifies the process. Righteousness doesn’t produce relationship. Relationship produces righteousness.” ~ Wayne Jacobsen (He Loves Me, pg. 147) pj

  148. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013

    I’ve dealt with hyper grace theologians quite a bit over the last five years or so. For the most part they are very unreasonable. Eventually most of them would confess sexual sins that they were involved in and claimed that Jesus paid the price so God would not condemn them.

    I even saw a few who blasphemed the Holy Spirit and said that was covered as well.


  149. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013

    God’s grace has always been in play, not one person has ever been forgiven outside of God’s grace.

    God’s grace to us as Christians is to:
    1) forgive us firstly of sins past.
    2) to destroy the old nature that is the enemy of God.
    3) to raise us up alive to God in Christ. (that is, to give us the spirit of Christ so that we may walk as Christ walked.)

  150. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013

    2nd Timothy 3:1-9

    1 ¶ This know also, that in the end of time a fierce season shall come.
    2 For men shall be selfish, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, without self control, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 betrayers, rash, lifted up with pride, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but refusing mighty work thereof: even these men turn away.

    6 from these are they which creep into households, and make captive silly women heaped with sins, led away with manifold desires,
    7 increasing with knowledge, and never able to come to acknowledgement of the truth.
    8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt understandings, rejected concerning the faith.
    9 But they shall proceed no further: for their madness shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was.

  151. and then i remembered these words……………….
    LET US FEAR, lest a promise of entering into HIS rest
    some seem to fall short of…………………
    Oh let us behold BOTH, BOTH, BOTH the GOODNESS
    and SEVERITY of GOD.
    THIS next line may come as a shocker to a small few………
    LOOKING DILIGENTLY……………….lest any man
    FAIL of the GRACE of GOD. written to BELIEVERS.
    Lest any man ………………..FAIL……………………of the grace of GOD.
    YES……………….lest any man Fail of the grace of GOD.
    THIS, yes my friends……………THIS was not wrote to
    states, casears, unbelievers,
    IT WAS written and said BODLY to BELIEVERS.
    IF a man does NOT BEHOLD the severity of GOD
    I promise the flesh will sin……………….
    AND this was not written to NERO, to govts, to presidents
    IT was written to BELEIVERS in the church.
    I will stand against ALL false doctrine to the last breath.
    DONT get slothful now…………………arise
    and FIGHT the evil of the flesh. HAVE a GOOD fear
    of GOD, NOT TO SIN.
    UNDERSTAND that all is BY GRACE.
    BUT UNDERSTAND a man can FAIL of the GRACE of GOD.
    David……………………..The question i asked about LAKE of FIRE…………..why was it LEFT unanswered………………………….
    PLEASE explain in great depth the lake of FIRE.

  152. waiting Mar 7th 2013

    The body of Christ needs MUCH teaching on Justification AND Sanctification. Yes, positionally, we are new creations in Christ, we have a new nature, and are now saints (holy ones).

    And, we are also being made holy. This is the need for confession of sin and repentance. I John was written to believers, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteous. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives” (vs 8-10).

    Jesus wanted to wash Peter’s feet on the last supper, and he said no Lord. Jesus replied that unless he did, he had no place with him. Peter said then wash all of me. Jesus replied, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean” (Jn 13:6-10).

    We don’t need to be saved again, once we’ve been genuinely converted, but we Do need to be washed from (I’ll call them ‘daily’ sins). (We got angry at someone, we lied, or had sexually immoral thoughts…).

    At best if these sins are left unrepented of, they will hinder our walk with Christ, at worst they will become a strong hold and could endanger our salvation. Only God knows when someone reaches that point.

    My recommendation? Have many, more services allowing confession of sin as normal, and then rejoice in the cleansing of His blood, and character growth taking place in the church.

    Bible teachers, please teach on both Justification and Sanctification.

  153. WITH tears in my heart and eyes
    i watched our LAST sight get destroyed by false leaven.
    IT was a sad thing for me to watch.
    New age leaven is creeping into sights
    THEY come in with an agenda.
    THEY wont tell everything they believe at the first.
    THEY will even act and agree with much of what you say.
    ALL the while they plant the SMALL leaven………
    when that leaven begins to take hold………………they bring a lil more doctrine, and always they take verses out of text.
    I say this as a warning to ALL.
    Andrew……………………………we all are our brothers keeper.
    ALWAYS be on gaurd……………and dont let
    any leaven Harm the group. Give anyone a chance
    to repent of false doctrine. ITS when they wont, you then
    must make the CHOICE. not for you, nor for the one
    bringing the doctrine. BUT FOR THE OTHER LAMBS.
    THIS stuff takes OFF , once it is planted in hearts.
    I sadly with tears watched it destroy a man whom we all loved.
    THEN JUST like that HE went VIRAL…………..and brought
    others into the group and shut down the truth quick.
    ask ROGER……..
    ask sandra. we sadly watched this.
    I warned and warned the man not to go the way i seen him beginning to go. BUT he took not the warning.
    and the sight has went viral into false doctrine. and i was
    kicked off the very first day, he brought in the calvary to try
    and sway the others his way. Beware of false leaven.
    WE are our brothers keeper.

  154. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013

    I have seen a teaching also that we each sin daily. That is not true.

    As we go on in our journey in Christ we sin less and less as we learn that we have dominion over the old man. Now we will from time to time slip but in the mature brother and sister sin should become a rarity though it is possible to fall into a place of daily sin we should not remain there.

    Jesus Christ gave us power over sin to overcome it. Now though we come to this place it does not permit us to throw stones at others but being an example we should call others and encourage them to go forward in their own battle.

    There is a likeness of this in the old testament writings, every time Israel wen to war and God fought for them making them victorious. This is a great consolation to us who have sins that we struggle with.

  155. waiting Mar 7th 2013

    Kenny I’m not saying we each sin daily, I’m saying that “if and when” we (as a Christian) sin, then we need to confess it and repent of it, according to I John.

    The deception comes when we are taught that we, don’t have any sin after we are saved, or any need of forgiveness or repentance.

    This is the reason there are So many moral failures in the church today. People think ‘all my sins are covered, God will overlook my sin’.

    Yes, we will and should be sinning less and less, but because of false teaching on God’s grace many people in the church are living in sin.

    It’s just as this article teaches.

  156. Tilman Mar 7th 2013

    You won’t believe what serious Christians believe and do today. I am not talking about apostate Christians!

    So, I talked recently to two fellow believers in my church, who are studying theology (I mention that to make clear that they are in a fundamental Christian Baptist Church). Since I havn’t met them for a longer time, because I was busy with working, one told me that they make an Christian excursion to talk about Goethes’ Faust, the other that she was impressed by the thought, which she caught up in a lecture, that there is no hell. I can’t describe my emotions when I heard this. All those perverse child abusers and satanic sadists who like to torture and kill children, women and helpless people should never get punished for their sins? Woe to those people, who argue like that. They are the true enemies of Christ, even if they look like a sheep. You are what God sais you are, not what you think you are!

    Please, everybody, talk about sin and the results with your neighbours. Many will wake up in hell! Let us not be treacherous water wells in the desert, fooling our brothers and sisters. I’d rather judge someone too often than let him live in his sin while behaving like a snake. Therefore, thanks for this article.

  157. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    Before and AFTER a person is born again, the flesh is judged by the LAWS of God.

    We receive the judgments NOW, not only after we physically die. Why? Because God is longsuffering and the Spirit of Grace is continually persuading people to come to repentance.

    So if we walk by the flesh, we are judged by the Laws of God.

    If we walk by the Spirit of Grace, we are not judged by the Law…..for the Spirit of Grace FULFILLS THE LAWS of God.
    He does not break His own LAWS.

    Falling from Grace is choosing to walk by the flesh, either by IGNORANCE or REBELLION.
    It does not matter which, you will SUFFER the judgments of God’s Laws in this life.

    Many who are suffering are calling it “suffering for Jesus” or “spiritual attacks” or “its just the natural consequences of the curse of the fall”.

    I hear no one confessing their sins in the congregation and admitting that God brought judgments upon them for those sins………


    His Fire is sent to BURN OUT THE DROSS….the Idols and Iniquities that we cleave to IN SPITE OF HIS SPIRIT OF GRACE.

    Volunteer/Surrender to, and EMBRACE HIS FIRE ON YOUR SOULS and you will enjoy His loving gentleness without the SUFFERING OF HIS JUDGMENTS.

    Surrender your Iniquities.

    BE BAPTIZED IN HIS FIRE and you will not be ASHAMED.

  158. Jesus was not a legalist. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Grace came when He came to this earth. But what did He teach? Jesus said, you must obey Me. Many times. Jesus said, you must do what I say. Many times. You must keep My words. You must follow Me. Go, make disciples, teach them to do what I say. If you hear My words and don’t do them you are a fool. Matt 7:26. Why do you call me Lord, you don’t do what I say? Lu 6:46. Blessed are those who hear the word of God, and do it. Luke 11:28. It’s abundantly clear that obedience was mandatory according to Christ, not optional. This is My standard and you must keep it. That’s all He taught, NOTHING else.

    “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36.

    It’s not enough to believe only, you must obey or you receive His wrath. The fruit of our faith is expressed through obedience. Disobedience is the fruit of unbelief, no matter what faith I profess. You know them by their fruits, the fruits of their faith, not the profession of their faith. Obedience is the fruit, faith working through love. Faith responding to God’s love through compliance, this is how I return love to God.

    Love compels us to act in faith based on what He tells us in His word. This shows that I love Him. It’s a love connection. It’s a reciprocation of love back toward the God who loves me. Faith without works of obedience is a faith devoid of the constraint of love. Faith constrained by love toward obedience is sonship, not slavery. It’s NOT legalism. It’s the righteousness that is of faith, it’s love generated in me manifested as the fulfillment of the law. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

    The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart and that was defined by Jesus as obedience. He said of Himself, I do always those things that please Him. I came to do the will of Him that sent Me. Not My will but thine be done. That is the voice of faith, the voice of love, the voice of a Son. One who desires to obey as a child to a parent because they are responding to love.

    The angel Gabriel, when announcing the birth of John the Baptist said,
    “He will turn… the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” Luke 1:17.

    The attitude of a righteous person is to obey. It’s an attitude of love. You can tell a righteous person by their attitude. You can tell who loves God by their attitude. Are they seeking to obey God or are they seeking to find an excuse to disobey God. Are they quibbling about the necessity to obey God. The attitude of an unrighteous person trivializes obedience to God. The attitude of a righteous person, which is seeking to obey, is an attitude of love, seeking to reciprocate love to God as He defines it. We love Him because He first loved us. I love Him, I want to obey Him, that’s all I really want. It’s the simplicity and purity of devotion to Jesus.

    Jesus said to His own, If you Love Me you will obey Me. If you don’t obey Me, you don’t love Me. It’s simple. If you don’t obey that means you are breaking the very first commandment to love God. He knows those who love Him.1Cor 8:3. Obedience defines those that love Him. If you love Him you obey Him.

    That’s how He can say He never knew you, you were never willing to accept that you must obey Him. You rejected the condition that you must return love. You must love, not just accept His love. You must love God with all your heart. You never really believed His word that told you, you must obey. You may have believed in Him, you may have been saved but He never knew you because you won’t obey, you don’t have an attitude to obey, you don’t really love Him. His words, not mine. He says, “You that work iniquity” Lawlessness. I don’t have to obey, grace means that I can lay claim to His love and not be responsible to His demands.

    It’s the people who love God, who seek to obey, these are they who discover grace. Grace for a christian is God working in me by His Spirit to accomplish what is pleasing to Him. Without Him I’m stuck. Without Him it’s law, rules. But with Him I can do all things. That’s grace.

    Obedience is not legalism. It’s the obedience of the faith that Paul was sent to accomplish among the Gentiles. Obedience is faith working through love, doing His will, according to His word, through the grace that He provides, nothing else will satisfy, me or Him. To Him be all the glory.

  159. Lightning Storm Mar 7th 2013

    The Fire of God is loving, kind, and gentle when we volunteer and embrace His Fire of cleansing and purifying.

    The Fire of God is HARSH when we RESIST entering into His purifying Fire. We suffer His judgments.

    Prime example is Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

    EITHER WAY…..there is no AVOIDING the FIRE OF GOD.

  160. fabakary Mar 7th 2013

    Some of this opinions just tempt people ,to preach or focus on a Law preaching gospel than , relationship with Christ. Think of it , there is a Judgment Seat of Christ where we must all appear to be Judge by the good or bad we did while we were in our bodies.If our Lord or his spirit is not interested in Judging or convicting us of sin now , why should he wait until we leave the body , and then convict or Judge us of the bad we did while in the body ? That will not be Love , if he love us he will convict us of Sin now , so that when we faced the judgment seat of Christ, we will have no excuse, for continuing in our ways despite His warnings.
    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord , we persuade men..(2Corin5v10-11)”
    Why should i be happy that the the lord will not convict me of sin while in the body , just to wait until I leave the body then he judges me ? If the Lord does not convict us of any sin we do now , just to leave us on our ways, until the Judgment seat of Christ, then there is no assurance , on the judgment seat , since we may not know the many wrongs he is recoding that we did not know.
    “Lord you are too good to convict me of sin now so that i may stand blameless before your judgment seat “.
    Yes it takes deeper relationship, for we all know so little of self in us.

  161. WE as christains go through fiery trials while here on earth.
    The unbelievers tend to have things much easier
    with the easy life.
    BUT at lifes end…………………….the believers will NEVER suffer
    But at lifes end………………..all unrepentant sinners who came not to CHRIST……………………their sufferings begin amass in a lake of fire.
    TILLMAN……………………….these are apostate christains
    YES…………..this teaching is massive now…………….
    they do too things………..
    they teach NOT to worry or give thought about JESUS coming
    and that there is NO LITERAL lake of fire at lifes end.
    this have been creeping slowly into churches
    BUT as of late……………….ITS MASSIVE and its WORLDWIDE.
    WE are being taught that if WE believe the bible is GODS infallible word…………………we are in error.
    THERE is an attack upon the bible like NEVER seen before
    and the deception is………………….these men of belial
    use the bible to try and prove their false points.
    ONLY THOSE IN JESUS can withstand their falsehoods.
    THIS attack is now in words and theorires of men
    BUT in time, and not very much longer, the words
    will no longer stay words………
    and at that time……………………..the judas of christaintiy
    who hung to CHRIST by falsehoods and reasonings
    of men……………..WILL BETRAY the true LAMBS of GOD.
    A gaint end of the great climax of ultimate betrayal coming
    soon to all lambs worldwide.
    They have already began having men spy on the ODD ones,
    to keep watch on them and in time betray them to authorities.
    Fundamental is becoming an evil word, and the media
    and new age is linking all true lambs in with the few
    who really are dangerous. EVERY TIME
    a man who claims to be of GOD, does something wicked and sinistir, like the bomber……………the news is there
    to LINK it to fundamental christianity. NOT to christanity
    for many churches are alrady going the way new age desires.
    BUT to fundamental bible believers.
    TRYING to make any become fearful of the true lambs.
    and in time……………………betrayal will be very easy.
    for they will see ALL fundamentalists as evil.
    THE MEDIA is being used now to form opinions based
    on hearsay against bible believeing christains.
    ITS JUST LIKE the days before adolf ……..
    the jews HAD to be made to LOOK BAD.
    and ALL JEWS had to be made to LOOK bad.
    then words became actions……………………..first roundups
    with promises of safe places for jews etc………
    THEN the killings and mass murder begain.
    ANd we headed RIGHT in thesame direction.
    ONLY THIS time………………the jews aint the scapegoat
    WE ARE……………………for we are in the way, the obstacle in the way of the worlds peace and unity.
    ANd the govt has the power to round up all POTENTIAL terroist
    and hold them EVEN if they have done no wrong.
    THIS is and will be for US and i mean SOON.
    right now its under the umbrella or guise of muslim, or christain
    extremists. and as the RIGHT wing christains begin doing
    evil exploits against govt, and harming people.
    THE GOVT will then be able to say LOUD and CLEAR
    SEE they are dangerous. and THEN ALL true bible believing
    christains will be ROUNDED UP. the powers of darkness are ruling and reiging in govts, presidents, world leaders, churches.
    LOOK at the recent study done on fundamental christainity.
    LOOK at the FOUR main points………..
    and then SEE……………………….as as true beliver
    we HAVE TO and MUST follow these four points.
    ITS a setup and a snare. and as i said
    right now………………its only mockings and laughter
    and words………………..BUT IT WILL NOT STAY THIS WAY for much longer. SOON the betrayal of all lambs
    comes WORLDWIDE.

  162. EVERYONE lets take a GOOD LONG LOOK
    and PONDER deep on the verse that DAVO brought us.
    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36
    KEY WORD……………………he who does NOT OBEY……..
    NOTICE the word OBEY…………………….again
    OBEY……………………and one more time
    THIS is a wake up call……………………
    a rather SERIOUS TRUTH and DEEP ONE………….
    it should be simple to know.
    BUT many men of belial have crept in and have turned the
    LIES and false propagana.
    MANY have went apostate………………
    MANY have said IN HEART ……………AWAY with the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL ……………..prophesy unto us Easy things
    SMOOTH things…………..promises of the easy life
    and no such thing as eternal damnation.
    and sadly the people LOVE to have this SO.
    NOT ME…………….i will DIE first, DEAD, killed etc………..
    there will be no SELLING the TRUTH for false grace
    BUT instead i BUY THE REALGRACE…………………
    amen. and amen.

  163. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013


    Thanks for clarification. I’m sorry if it looked like I thought you’d said that, I did not. Though your post did bring back some memories of others saying that.

    God bless you for not being offended and please accept my apologies


  164. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013


    Here is some information on hell that perhaps will help you to convince others of the truth. (this is an exhaustive study of the new testament references to “Hell”). This is a study from a few years back that another brother and myself did to assist some others to avoid being drawn into heresy.

    References to hell, the lake of fire, the second death etc.

    Note in the following verse that hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire. Hell must exist some time prior to this incident in order for this to happen. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    The real question is what exactly is hell? Here are three separate words translated as hell; Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo. Also there is the Abyss which speaks of a prison of sorts for Fallen Angels. It is possible that some of these may be separate compartments within the same place. Think of a prison, General population, high security and the hole. I’m not saying this is what this is but that it is a possibility. Also remember that the Greeks were trying to wrap their language around God’s universe for the first time so some Hebrew words may have been a struggle to explain in Greek. Try explaining snow to an equatorial aborigine. Words fail in the translation since they have no definition of snow.

    86 Adhv hades hah’-dace
    from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT-1:146,22; n pr loc
    AV-hell 10, grave 1; 11
    1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
    2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
    3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

    In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, #Lu 16:23; Re 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

    Some scripture references:
    Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (Hades): for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. refers to humanity

    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it.

    Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell (Hades). refers to humanity

    Luke 16:23 And in hell (Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. refers to humanity

    Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. refers to Christ (see OT reference to cross reference OT synonym of hades)

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Hades), neither his flesh did see corruption. refers to Christ

    1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Hades), where is thy victory? refers to humanity

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (Hades) and of death. refers to Christ

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell (Hades) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. refers to humanity

    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. refers to humanity

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    1067 geenna geenna gheh’-en-nah
    of Hebrew origin Mnh-ayq, 01516 and 02011; TDNT-1:657,113; n f
    AV-hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

    1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

    Some scripture references:
    Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehennah) fire. refers to humanity

    Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (Gehennah). refers to humanity

    Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (Gehennah). refers to humanity

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehennah). refers to humanity

    Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell (Gehennah) fire. refers to humanity

    Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell (Gehennah) than yourselves. refers to humanity

    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell (Gehennah)? refers to humanity

    Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (Gehennah), into the fire that never shall be quenched: refers to humanity

    Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (Gehennah), into the fire that never shall be quenched: refers to humanity

    Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (Gehennah) fire: refers to humanity

    Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (Gehennah); yea, I say unto you, Fear him. refers to humanity

    James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (Gehennah). refers to humanity

    5020 tartarow tartaroo tar-tar-o’-o
    from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell); ; v
    AV-cast down to hell 1; 1

    1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
    2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

    Scripture reference: (this verse shows that the fallen Angels are held until judgment and proving Mr. Strong’s work incorrect in this instance)
    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell , and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; refers to Angelics

    References to the lake of fire:
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Revelation 20:14 And death (Thanatos) and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. refers to humanity

    From what Christ says here Gehennah is the second death Which says this is the same as the lake of fire found in the above scripture verses.
    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehennah). refers to humanity

    The Abyss or Pit

    Greek 12 abussov abussos ab’-us-sos
    from 1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of 1037; TDNT-1:9,2; n f
    AV-bottomless pit 5, deep 2, bottomless 2; 9
    1) bottomless
    2) unbounded
    3) the abyss
    3a) the pit
    3b) the immeasurable depth
    3c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons

    Isaiah 24:22 appears to be the same as these NT scriptures. I gave the Greek and Hebrew in each occasion. In the OT is speaks of the imprisonment of the host of the high ones as well as kings being in that place.

    Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep (Abussos). refers to the Angelics

    Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep (Abussos)? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) refers to Christ

    Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless (Abussos) pit. refers to the Angelics

    Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless (Abussos) pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. refers to the Angelics

    Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit (Abussos), whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. refers to the Angelics

    Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Abussos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. refers to the beast

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (Abussos), and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. refers to the beast

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit (Abussos) and a great chain in his hand. refers to the Angelics

    Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (Abussos), and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. refers to the Angelics

    We know that Christ went to Hades. (Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31) We also know that this is a prison for lost men. (Luke 16:23, Revelation 20:13)

    We know that Christ went into the Abyss. (Romans 10:7)
    We also know this is where fallen angels are held until the judgment. (Luke 8:31) Also this is where “the Beast” comes from. (Revelation 11:7, Revelation 17:8)

    We know that that the fallen Angels are held until judgment. (2 Peter 2:4)

    We know that Gehennah is the second death. (Matthew 10:28) Gehennah and the Lake of Fire are one in the same.
    We know that Gehennah is where the damned and therefore the judged meet their final justice. (Matthew 23:33)
    We know that Gehennah is also a place of unquenchable fire. (Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45)
    We know that Gehennah was created for the devil and his Angels. (Matthew 25:41)

    Lake of Fire:
    We know that the Lake of Fire is the second death. (Revelation 20:14) The Lake of Fire and Gehennah are one in the same.
    We know that those not in the book of life will be consigned here for all eternity. (Revelation 20:15)
    We know this is where the beast, false prophet, Satan and those who receive the mark of the beast are. (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 14:9-11)

  165. Kenny Atnip Mar 7th 2013


    sorry about the long post and I hope I didn’t break any rules brother but my memory does not let me bring them to mind.

    God bless you brother for hosting us all on your forum. Mostly I just read but have responded a few times when it seemed to me I may be of some assistance to the brothers.


  166. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    I would love to hear your commentary on 1John 3:9. John makes some very straightforward statements concerning a Christian’s ability to sin.

  167. The Christian life was soooo simple back when. Today I would not dare say that about ‘The Blessed Christain folk. How did it all change in 100 years?? The Penticostal movement happened back at the turn at the 20th centery. My Grand Mother was Penticostal. She became one during the great revival that started the P. Church. I’ve been Penticostal and Baptist since I was 10 years old. At 10, I asked Jesus Christ into my heart and He has been my Lord and Savior ever since.

    This is not to harm anyone’s belieff. Yes, you have a role to play in your Salvation. Enough Faith as a mustard seed (the smallest seed in this world). I know and understand the “you can loose your salvation. However it is so confusing I just can’t agree with it, too many loose threads. The clue, that to me is conclusive is, “If you know you’ve been saved and live the life, bear fruit and know the comforter abides within, you are indeed born again. Your earthy spirit has joined God’s spirit. What about my fear of God. I DO NOT ever worry about losing my salvation.

    About 15 years ago I did a study on Job. When I got to the last chapters, God spoke and told all the things He did and created. I was absolutely overwhelmed. I read and read and my eyes got wider and wider, stunned in awe. The Holy Spirit waked me up and let me see within my spirit how actually Holy and majestic and mighty my God really is. I could not pick up the Bible for about three months….it took me that long to even digest it all. I fear Him now for Who He is and what He is. I’d always taken it in as truth, but without deep understanding. In short, He is the Great, I Am of the entire universe. He knows and owns everything. That makes me so minute, and yet, He still knows me by name and hears my voice and calls me His child. It’s mindboogling. When you take things for granted, He is there to give it life. I have never feared Him for other reasons. There’s no need. The Lord is my Shephard; I shall not want. To think He is playing a game of cat and mouse with me is unimaginable. The only way you can lose your eternal life from my understanding of scriptures is by blastpheming the Holy Spirit…and it says very little about that.

    Oh yes, I’ve studied the scriptures with open mind, tried to see how you could lose your salvation. I couldn’t do it. There were alwyas too many questions I had each and every time. I keep thinking, “I couldn’t love him so much, unabashedly, if I thought He’d toss me aside. He will not go to the Cross again for me. He went once and once only. If His blood was not good enough the first time, it finitely was not good enough period. God said it was. He’s the only one I will listen to. This super Grace balony is about the same thing. All for not, but to destroy His love and faith in us.

  168. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Joan, please find in scripture when we ever lose our ability to choose what God we will serve? We have a free will, we never lose that. I believe the only way you can terminate your salvation is by making a conscious choise to reject God and walk away. I believe this is what Peter was talking about in his books. If we lose our free will, then do we become a hostage of God? Forced to continue to serve him against our will? I think not. People get hung up on the word “Lose” our salvation. It implies it happens without us knowing it. So not true, it takes a conscious decision to walk away. Demus in the new testiment is a good example. If it took a conscious choice to accept Christ, then it stands to reason it takes the same to reject him later.

  169. Veronika L. Mar 7th 2013

    I have heard people say that their old man washed down the river when they were baptized in it, and others say that we are new creations in Christ, which can kind of lead me to believe that they no longer sin, and no need to repent of anything because they accepted Christ and its all good. Ok, but I also read in the Word of God, Paul saying in Romans 7….For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate; that I do…. — I’m also told to LAY ASIDE those things that so easily entangle me (Heb.12) and to PUT ON the new man which was created according to God (Eph.4) and to RUN in such a way that I might obtain an imperishable crown (1cor 9)…I believe I will struggle with this old fleshly man of mine til I die….that daily and even moment by moment I need to choose to LAY ASIDE, PUT ON, and RUN– for I do not know when my heavenly Father will call me or return!! And for those who say we shouldn’t “judge” — we should be close enough as siblings in Christ to encourage eachother to strvie(through the power of Christ) to be rid of those things which are not pleasing to the Lord–for our own good~ He is coming back and how will He find us??

  170. Anna M. Mar 7th 2013

    I remember I’m a new man, it’s my old man who has the bad memory. 😀

  171. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    Preaching the grace of God and calling Christians to repentance are not mutually exclusive . By the grace of God I repent everyday. By the grace I God Paul saw himself more and more of a sinner as he progressed in grace. He started out saying, “I am not in the inferior to those men.” Then he grew in grace and said, “I am the least of Gods people and do not deserve to be called a saint. By the grace I God I am what I am .” Then he grew s

  172. Barry Schmidt Mar 7th 2013

    Sorry – then Paul grew some more in grace and yet even as an old saint relished in grace even more, “not having a righteousness of my own but that which is by faith alone.” And it was during this jail time as an old seasoned grace preacher he said, “but grace was shown to me the worst of sinners.”

    Isaiah was a holy priest of God until God showed up in Isaiah’s life then Isaiah cried, “woe is me! I am ruined and am a man I unclean lips.”

    If we are truly under grace as we say we all are then why are we so afraid to let God rebuke us of our sin, call us to repentance and shine his holy light on us like he did on Paul and the holy Isaiah?

    Martin Luther rightly said, “Go ahead and chide me for my sin God and point out my every flaw. Go ahead and beat me God- my sins are forgiven- what else matters!”

    Amen ! Why are such a bunch of wooseys about God calling us to repentance when we are under His marvelous grace to change us and respond?

  173. Isaac Mar 7th 2013

    I’ve been reading through ‘The Apostolic Fathers’….these were the guys who were discipled by the 1st generation people like John, Peter and Paul. It’s fascinating to read these early church letters and with every one I’m struck by how much differently they spoke of Christianity. So many of us in the modern church would read these things and accuse them of being legalistic or un-graceful, but these weren’t the heretics. Like this article and like our bible, they stressed BOTH that we’re only saved by God’s grace but also that sin was a problem to be taken seriously and repented of. They saw no contradiction.

    I hope we can correct the hyper-grace teaching in the church without swinging into hyper-holiness. I believe they are two sides of the same coin and the Christian life works much more like it should when we’re aware of both.

  174. David: I truly cannot argue with willfully pulling out from God, as I never have, so I don’t know? Never heard of anybody who has.I had never thought about it I can relate to what Barry said about Paul. You see David, there are many people out there, I have come to believe, that are thinking Salvation is like rocket science. You must know every jot and tittle out there to be saved. The Bible does not say that; as a matter of fact, just the opposite. David, I’m 80 years old. My God has never ever felled me. Who has strayed a few times, me. He has always brushed me off and I can never ever thank Him enough. I never considered or felt like I ever had to start over again. You and others: If He wanted to let us know we were on probation, He would have told us Himself. He cannot lie. God is pleased and I am grateful. By the way, How, how could a person ever denouce the Lord Jesus Christ after meeting Him, except Judus, who was never His in the first place? Today, there is too much ‘devil’s advocate’ going around. Free will is great. But it has nothing to do with your etermal decision. God gives every person a change to choose. Once you ‘choose’, you’ll never turn back, I’m a witness to that. God knows who’s serving Him; He knows everything, remember? Those who will put 666 on their body, I’ll mention them boldly: Were they ever His anyway? Final thought, If, someone ‘choses’ to walk away? Do you believe they were ever in God’s company in the first place? I don’t.

  175. Martin Luther rightly said, “Go ahead and chide me for my sin God and point out my every flaw. Go ahead and beat me God- my sins are forgiven- what else matters!”

    I smiled when I read that Barry… 🙂

    That’s the way I feel…

    Once you know you’re forgiven you’re quite happy for God to remove “sin within you” knowing it’s not you and knowing that’s its already been condemned on the cross…

    We come closer and closer to the Lord because we love Him…

    We want to walk in fellowship with Him – without holiness no one will see the Lord – blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God – because we want to see Him – more and more and more we want to see Him…

    We persevere – because there’s nothing else which we want to see but Him…

    One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple. (Psalm 27:4 NASB)

    The most amazing revelation came to me when the Lord showed me that my new creation cannot sin…

    We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18NASB)

    It is “sin within me” which sins – this is what the Lord judges…

    He does see “sin within me” and He hates it…

    And He knows the pain which it causes me – just like it caused Lot…

    Lot had a new creation – scripture tells us that Lot had a righteous soul (psuche), i.e. a righteous mind, will and emotions…

    When we are born again we are given a new spirit, a new heart and a new soul…

    We are told that we have the Mind of Christ…

    We are told that He gives His Spirit without measure…

    The Holy Spirit comes and lives in our new creation – which cannot sin and cannot be touched by the devil…

    We are told that He forgives us from all our sins…

    We are seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus…

    We are made Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ…

    We are made “one spirit” with God…

    When we are born again…

    We are joined to the Lord…

    Just like the marriage analogy…

    We are accepted by God…

    Because He accepted His Son’s Blood Sacrifice and we have believed on this for our righteousness…

    God cannot condemn us who believe on His Son’s Blood Sacrifice…

    So this is where we find ourselves…

    But as Barry reminded us – God takes very seriously “sin within us” because He loves us…

    He wants us to walk with Him…

    We can’t walk with Him unless we are in agreement with Him…

    So He goes to work on us to do whatever He has to do to remove “sin within us”…

    He does this in love…

    He rebukes and disciplines us in love…

    He wants us to be holy as He is holy…

    He has committed Himself to make us holy…

    Those He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed into the Image of His Son…

    This is what He is doing in us…

    Judging us – sin within us – so that our new selves can “shine forth” in His likeness and so that His testimony can be seen in this world…

    Repentance is what happens when the Holy Spirit establishes this hatred of sin in our hearts…

    We repent when He shows us what sin is – and how it is the opposite of His Character…

    Grace establishes Righteousness…

    Nothing else can…

    Love in the Lord,


  176. Darren Sargent Mar 7th 2013

    Yes Barry, . . . let a righteous man rebuke me, it is oil on my head . . . and He is indeed the most Righteous of men! How else can we maintain that bond of love between brothers if we are not each others keepers? Not to cajole or manipulate but to speak the truth in love.

    Veronika, I think you express well that tension between ‘being saved’ and ‘will be saved’. Sin is defeated, Satan has been cast down and condemned and the world has been overcome . . . and all through Christ crucified. It is done! He has fulfilled all righteousness. Now he will repeat that victory in every single one of us. It is entirely possible that a man or woman can live extended periods of time on Earth without censure from God, but only through conscious obedience and unconscious holiness (Oswald Chambers).

  177. David Markham Mar 7th 2013

    Joan, I just want you to know that I think you are wonderful and amazing!!

  178. Friends , are you aware of this ?
    “When quotations from the NLT text are used in non-salable media, such as church bulletins, orders of service, newsletters, transparencies, or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required, but the initials (NLT) must appear at the end of each quotation.”
    My question is are we breaking Caesars law if we do not indicate which version we quote
    I understood the KJV was public domain in the US. however : i was wrong!
    “When quotations from the KJV text are used in materials not being made available for sale, such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, presentation materials, or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required but the initials KJV must appear at the end of the quotation.”
    See the US case for
    So when i post Bible text and do not indicate which version. (KJV) I am breaking copyright law! Guilty as found.
    My grandmother, bless her had a saying “Tis as much a sin to steal a pin, as ’tis to steal a greater thing”
    Pr Michael

  179. Andrew Mar 8th 2013

    The original KJV is totally Public Domain – and so is every book 75 years old or more.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  180. Thanks Andrew, I’ve done internet research on copyright status of Bible translations and find it confusing to say the least
    .Pr Michael,

  181. Andrew Mar 8th 2013

    David Markham – I understand exactly where you are coming from. And I agree with you – some of those old “hard-line” Pentecostals of the 1970’s and 1980’s were very legalistic. So someone coming out of that scene would indeed need a lot of “Grace” preached.

    Good point.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  182. GaryB Mar 8th 2013

    James 5:13-15

    13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

    14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    The Bible says if he has committed sins they shall be forgiven him. This shows it is possible for a Christian to commit sin. In this verse it uses the word “sins”.

  183. GaryB Mar 8th 2013

    Randell lowrey

    I have been blessed by your comments. Yes it seems like a lot of error goes through this board. Jesus said, its the “truth that will set us free”.

    Praise God for His Word.


  184. monteT Mar 8th 2013

    Rev 22 v11/22

  185. monteT Mar 8th 2013


  186. Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

    For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 3,4

    We are all to contend with certain ungodly persons, who are IN the church, for the faith which is focused on the true grace of God. Not a perverted version of grace that gives you license or permission to sin or diminishes sins threat to your eternal destiny. It’s not hyper grace, it’s perverted grace, a false explanation of grace. Grace defined as license or permission to sin instead of as a path to freedom from sin that Jesus teaches in John 8:30-36 and Paul’s Gospel teaches in Rom 6-8. The slave and freeman metaphor is consistent throughout the NT instruction on sin.

    Jude says denying our only Master and Lord. How? Deny His words, His teaching.
    Repentance. Jesus said stop sinning. That is His instruction. That is what repentance means. “Go, and sin no more”. Jn 8:11. “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” Jn 5:14 Stop sinning or something worse will happen to you. What is worse than 38 years of being lame? I take it Jesus means hell. Stop sinning or you are going to hell.

    Who gets forgiven of something that they never stop doing? I’m gonna keep sinning but I know you’ll forgive me God. I’ve changed my attitude, I admit it’s wrong. This sounds like something out of the Roman confessional. I just keep getting forgiven over and over and over. We are talking repentance not penance.

    Luk 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    Repentance isn’t just a change of mind and heart, it is a change of behavior because if you don’t cease, hell will be the result. That is the biblical warning repeated over and over.

    Take the subject of pornography and masturbation. Look at Matt 5.
    Mat 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    Mat 5:29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
    Mat 5:30 “If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

    Pornography and masturbation are represented here by Jesus. What is His assessment of these sins? Pluck it out! Cut it off! Stop it! Why? YOU WILL GO TO HELL if you don’t!!!

    No, these sins are addressed as sins that will damn you and you must flee. You are at risk if you think you can live in a compromised state with sin.

    But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” Rom 6:17-18.

    Free from sin and slaves of righteousness is Paul’s version of the gospel of the grace of God. I think I’ll go with his version, thank you.

    You want to know why people stop sinning. Hell. If you don’t stop sinning you will go to hell. That is how Jesus taught it and that’s good enough for me, how about you?

    Beware of any preacher telling you you don’t have to stop sinning to go to heaven. Beware of any preacher claiming to be free or promising you freedom while being a slave of sin.

    17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
    18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
    19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 2Pet 2:17-19

  187. Barry Schmidt Mar 8th 2013

    I believe the truly biblical “grace” oriented saints on this website comment board are placed there by God Himself to prophetically goad and chide and even pressure the consciences of many who have by providence found themselves on this site.
    It is only by grace alone that this sincere remnant will come into their full potential.
    I believe there are some who read these posts who have feared and resisted the grace of God for most of their lives. The Lord i.s clearly showing me that there are others who have more confidence in themselves and their own wisdom, resolve, dedication and faithfulness than they do in Gods grace. I believe their are some on this site who will harden their hearts to the message of Gods grace and in fact the Spirit is showingn me these very words will rise up to condemn them on judgement day.

  188. Barry Schmidt Mar 8th 2013

    See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; (Hebrews 12:15 NASB)

  189. The concept of hyper-grace must be based on and tied to the concept of once saved always saved. Both doctrines misdefine the efficacy and application of the atonement , the nature and clauses of the contract (Covenant).
    They believer falsly that the atonement is plenary and applied to all your sins universaly from the moment you first believed and repented. This form of universal atonement concept is what universalist uses when they say “all men everywhere will be saved.” The osas and hyper grace simply limit it to only the saved as a plenary atonement. But the fact is … it’s a covenental atonement, or contract, with conditions and clauses.
    The Atonement is NOT applied universaly to all men because it’s first clause is that you must believe and repent of your sins. This is how you get INTO the Contract by a signature (sign of nature) of “FAITH” which you then apply to the Gospel you heard and follow with the good fruit of repentance from sin. Only by this can we expect to participate in the propitiation that God has made available to us.
    The contract is also made clear in that we are told repeatedly that we must continue in that faith and repentance as the Holy Spirit convict us us of sin. Dispite what the person at the top declared; the scriptures does say that the HS does convict us of sin. In verses like those in Heb 3, specificaly 1,6,12-14, Paul is directly speaking to Christians. And he is speaking of NOT hardening your hearts to the voice of the HS who was given in part to convince the world of sin, including YOU as a christian. This same theme is followed through by Paul in a tour de force through Heb 6:4-12 and culminating in Heb 10: 23-39. That person who could not find a “single verse that speaks of the HS convicting a christian of sin” obviously only looked for the verses using the word “convict” or a variation thereof. These PASSAGES all speak of warning a christian of the dangers of unrepentant sin. As well as James 1: 14-15 and Rom. 11: 17-22. In all cases it warns of letting urepentant sin lead to hardness of heart that then leads to a reprobate mind ending in UNBELIEF! At this point you become AS the unbeliever with NO access to the cross or atonement as you CHOSE to walk away! Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    AND: Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ( verse not posted for brevity) Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. ( HIS PEOPLE) Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
    And in Heb. 3 : Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ( conditionaly > IF… )
    Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
    Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    “TODAY” means just that … NOT 5 years ago when you first heard and believed and repented!
    Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    The conditional clause of the Covenant is that we MUST REMAIN in that “confidence” (of faith and repentance) unto the end. And Paul in Heb. 3 and 4, repeats that warning THREE times as a representation of the present needs TODAY to repent of a sin we are convicted of. Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    The hyper -grace and OSAS groups think that once they were saved they stand before God as “sinlessly perfect”. Nothing more or less can be gleaned from their position, no matter how they phrase it. When in fact the LEGAL standing we have is as one without sin before the Father, we also know that sin that is committed is still going on in the lives of all men, including these people from both camps. The Contracts 3rd clause then is enumerated in 1 John chapter 1: it states that IF we confess our sins … 1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    ( If we are willing to admit we have sinned when the Holy Spirit speaks to us, convicting is of sin, we are walking in the Light!)

    1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    ( if we DENY his conviction we are lying to ourselves and decieving ourselves (reprobate mind) )
    1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    ( If we will confess our sins then the Holy Spirit / God can forgive us of those sins [a conditional clause whereby the atonement is applied to a present sin we committed] and only then will we stand again in the LEGAL STANDING of being sinless before the eyes of the Father)
    1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    (If we will not admit to the Holy Spirits conviction and REPENT we are denying the Holy Spirit; calling him a liar; and in effect blaspheming the Holy Spirit which leads to NO forgiveness and the LEGAL STANDING of a UNBELIEVER , which has no forgiveness of sin in this life or the world to come. This fulfills the conditions of Heb 6: 4-6. As long as we remain in denial, we remain without forgiveness. Because of Grace we have mercy before God so that the HS will continue to try and get us to admit our sin. BUT if we refuse his ministry and correction and even chastizment, then we will end up as reprobate and in UNBELIEF.
    The truth is that we all start as carnal minded babes and need the conviction of the Holy Spirit to deal with our carnal minded nature and sins of the flesh. This process of sanctification DEALS DIRECTLY with the sin we commit in our imperfect, immature spiritual state. The sanctification of our lives being called spiritual maturity or “perfect”, conformed to Christ, crucified with Christ, and other terms.
    Without this concept/ clause God becomes unjust and a fool who we can dupe out of a license to sin. That person may not have found a verse that states; the HS “convicts” a christian of sin, using that precise word. But a fortress of an argument can be made none the less for this precept as a part of the biblical foundations as seen in Gods dealings with Israel alone.
    We live in sad times when men seek such errant and foolish doctrines to suit their itching ears.

  190. waiting Mar 8th 2013

    I just want to thank the family of God on this site for showing love and decency in talking about this topic, that can be divisive. I’m impressed. It can be difficult on these forums to communicate in love.

    Thanks Kenny for your post, really no offense taken brother. God bless you.

    And thanks Andrew for your committment to Scripture. It’s so vital today.

  191. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    Everything that the natural man touches becomes complex and complicated.
    The “mind of man” twists the simplicity of God’s Truth into a pretzel.

    Luk 18:15 KJV
    And they brought unto him also INFANTS, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them.

    Luk 18:16 KJV
    But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer LITTLE CHILDREN to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

    Luk 18:17 KJV
    Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

  192. If you study the NT scriptures and the history of revival; one fascinating understanding of salvation becomes clear. . . People like Pau; — and even Finney understood the biblical categories of people.

    The understanding they had . . .
    ONE type of Christian. By Grace through faith, convicted of sin, shown the way of the cross and sanctified and led by the spirit.

    1, The careless sinner, unaware, self righteous or unbelieving, not knowing the ways of GOD.
    2, The Convicted sinner, knowing they are living in a way displeasing to God, lawless, rebellious and in need of forgiveness, but not wanting to surrender and let Jesus be Lord in their life.

    1,The true committed Christian, demonstrating righteousness and love.
    2, The Carnal Christian, in bondage to sin, disobedient and unrighteous, but aware of their need for God. They want his forgiveness, gifts and love, but haven’t yet surrendered, obeyed or shown the fruit of repentance, but saved by faith.
    The person who isn’t aware of God, his love or what he did for them on the cross.

    THe modern church has switched the categories, opened the door to the unregenerate, and deceived thousands — if not millions, by giving them a false hope. ‘We’ve lowered the bar’ and sanctified and given the stamp of religious approval to those God is calling to repent and be saved.

    Make no mistake, we will be held to account for this wickedness! Fruit is a must.
    Blessings,grace and truth to all; Gary.

  193. GaryB Mar 8th 2013

    The problem in America is we have to many people quoting readers digest instead of quoting the Bible from the pulpit every week.

    When I see someone trying to justify sin or sinful practices in the church and then quoting Mark Twain to prove their point, something is seriously wrong.

    “Now church if you will turn over to chapter 22 we will see how Huckleberry Finn dealt with the issue of slavery from a christian perspective.” BTW were serving cookies and kool-aid after this deeper discussion.

    The reason everyone twists the simplicity of God’s Word is so they do not have to believe what it says.

    Its an easier path called the “broad way”, on this path everyone “Co-exists” in religion.

    Like Demas many are drawn to this world and the flesh and want to find proof texts that ease the conscience and allows them to live the way they want.

    Then anyone who quotes the Bible is labeled judgemental and divisive. Its as simple as that.

    As John Bunyan once wrote; many are trying to find another way into the kingdom instead of the straight and narrow path.

  194. fabakary Mar 8th 2013

    Our Goal is not to fulfill the Law neither is it to seek Grace standing apart but deeper and deeper union with Christ.

    Paul fulfilled the Law through Christ, and received grace through Christ , but hear Him say “I press toward the mark “.

    So to fulfill the Law or receive grace is not the mark , but Christ. Let us not be satisfy with anything less than full union with Christ.

    Lets not be at ease with any spiritual blessing until we are one with the person (Christ).
    If we die with Christ, we fulfill the Law , because we are dead to sin, and that is through grace, and that is not the end , because we cannot have fellowship with Christ on the grave but we are also to be resurrected with the Living Christ, when we are resurrected together, that mean we are having fellowship and union together with the living Christ . This is the path to union, the goal.

  195. Truthseeker Mar 8th 2013

    You mentioned “As John Bunyan once wrote; many are trying to find another way into the kingdom instead of the straight and narrow path.”
    Praise the Lord brother for saying that.
    That is what religion is doing in the church.

    Consider these comments made by Jacob Prasch about Rick Warren who is well known for altering scripture and teaching, getting paid for doing so, and misleading many christians in the process…

    by James Jacob Prasch
    February 27, 2013

    Moriel and Jacob Prasch fully endorse the recent conference remarks by Paul Smith warning about the seriously dangerous nature of the actions and false doctrines of Rick Warren.

    Any honest review of the irrefutable facts supports Paul Smith’s caveats.
    1st – Rick Warren’s recent open equivocation on same sex marriage to the Huffington Post after being publicly exposed for two contradictory statements concerning California’s Proposition 8 fits the fact that Rick Warren co- forewarded Dan Kimbell’s book ‘THE EMERGENT CHURCH’ with Emergent Church Guru Brian McLaren who last month performed the same sex wedding of his son to his son’s husband in a supposedly “Evangelical’ ritual. The contrast of the two contradictory statements would impress anyone watching them that Rick Warren is a double talking liar. In light of this equivocation on same sex marriage, it is now a public shame and a disgrace for any Christian pastor or leader to now sanction the so called ministry of Rick Warren.

    2nd – Rick Warren’s ‘Global Peace Plan’ calling for partnering with worshippers of other gods (whom Moses and Paul both identified in God’s Word as demons) in order to usher in global peace is the anti christ agenda for a false, christ-less peace that scriptural prophecy predicts and warns against in the last days. It is a public shame and a disgrace for any Christian leader to lend credence to the architect of such a blatantly satanic agenda.

    3rd – Rick Warren’s downplay of repentence in his Purpose Driven model is a false gospel. In any New Testament model of the true gospel, repentence is central, not peripheral and a condition of regeneration, not only a post salvation sanctification. The marketing psychology based strategy Rick Warren borrowed from secular marketing entrepreneur Peter Drucker and various figures involved in New Age “New Thought” drives this point even further.

    4th – Rick Warren’s instruction to ignore end time prophecy as a diversion directly contradicts the unambiguous commands of the Lord Jesus in the Olivet Discourse to Be Alert for the signs of His Second Coming. Worse still is Rick Warren’s “cut and paste” style of eisegesis translocating verses between New Testament books, to make the text appear to state things it does not, is cultic and heretical. It even goes beyond Rick Warren’s preference for Eugene Peterson’s ‘The Message’ which often bears no resemblence to the original meaning of the original Greek texts instead of preaching from the Word of God.

    We thank God for the uncompromising courage and integrity displayed by Paul Smith exhibited in his stance and we stand with his remarks solidly.

    Anyone who truly fears God, believes His Word, and understands the irrefutable documented facts about Rick Warren, can do not other. Rick Warren is one of the false teachers whom Jesus warned would come to deceive the elect and prepare the way for the anti christ in the Last Days. The proven facts examined in light of God’s Words can leave room for no other viable conclusion.

    We will all stand before The Lord. Pastors will give account to Jesus for if not they protected His sheep for whom He died from the wolves sent to devour them according to Jesus, Ezekiel, and Peter and James tells us that teachers of scripture will be judged by the Lord more strictly than the rest. Let us all take heed

    If anyone has time please look at this link about Rick Warren

    And this is shocking about this prayer which was said by Rick Warren, and released today (8th March 2013) for all to hear

  196. Peter Mar 8th 2013

    I am so grateful that I am not the only one that can clearly see the error of this “Grace Movement”.
    I was really excited when I heard the Grace gospel preached, and got stuck into the bible to see were I went wrong.
    Trouble was, the more I looked, the more I found out that what I had always believed, was right!
    But it did make me study to understand exactly what it was that i believed.
    When I tried to tell others in this Church that something wasn’t right, that there was error in this teaching, I was vehemently resisted by other church members, and even called a heretic.
    I chose to leave that church.
    In my best friends church in Newcastle, they embraced the Grace message, now the church is no more, the Pastor ran off with a married woman, while still married.
    They all started drinking wine, which then led to strong alchohol and now the majority of the church are divorced or separated, or living in de-facto relationships etc.
    It was a real mess, but that’s what taking grace too far can do.
    I really thought I was the only one that realised this, but thank God there are so many Brothers and Sisters, that haven’t fallen for the deceivers trick. My heart leaps, when I read the comments of those that have not been deceived as well, that have exactly the same understanding as I do, and expressed so brilliantly.
    I just love you guys.

  197. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Gary B, You have tied the Grace message with “once saved always saved”. I have embraced some but not all of the Grace message. But I do not believe that you ever lose your ability to choose what God you will serve. This is the fallacy of the OSAS crowd. Show me a scripture where we stop having a will with the ability to choose. I believe you never lose the ability to reject God and walk away. I think Demus is an example of this. You also say that the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of Sin. There is no scripture to support that statement. he convicts the World no doubt. I would love to hear your commentary on 1 John 3:9.

  198. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Gary B, You have tied the Grace message with “once saved always saved”. I have embraced some but not all of the Grace message. But I do not believe that you ever lose your ability to choose what God you will serve. This is the fallacy of the OSAS crowd. Show me a scripture where we stop having a will with the ability to choose. I believe you never lose the ability to reject God and walk away. I think Demus is an example of this. You also say that the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of Sin. There is no scripture to support that statement. he convicts the World no doubt. I would love to hear your commentary on 1 John 3:9.

  199. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Andrew, my brother in Christ. Thanks for understanding where I have been. I’m just trying to work out my own Salvation with fear and trembling. God bless you for all you do for the Kingdom!!!

  200. Barry Schmidt Mar 8th 2013

    “Taking grace too far”???
    How can you take grace too far? That’s like saying I’m going to get in my car and drive half way but so I don’t take it too far I’m going to get out and walk the rest of the way!
    Any attempt to undermine, reject or replace 100% grace is rooted in three things:
    1. pride
    2. Pride
    3. PRIDE

  201. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (KJV)

    Critic’s would say – hold on, we are not glorified YET – well that is true “in time” but God being outside of “time” sees it as an already “done deal” It’s as good as done.

    Rom 4:17 “b” and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (KJV)

  202. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (KJV)

  203. Barry Schmidt Mar 8th 2013

    god opposes the PROUD but gives grace to the HUMBLE.
    The opposite of grace is not law. The opposite of grace is PRIDE.
    If any of us thinks he is going to either secure or maintain their relationship with God by anything but grace alone- THAT PERSON IS BEING RESISTEDBY GOD HIMSELF!
    Friends I’d rather have every demon in Hades against me than have Hod against me! Anyone who thinks they are going to stay right with God on their performance or their behavior is trusting I’m themselves and that is the ESSENCE OF PRIDE.
    He who trusts in himself has a fool for an advisor.

  204. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Ken 1, what is your point???

  205. This was sent to me today (A daily devotional)

    You Are Accepted – Cease From Your Striving

    He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Ephesians 1:6

    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?” For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”Romans 8:38,39

    Who is God that He should lie?
    His Word is truth – His promises are altogether sure,
    He is faithful and true.

    There is not a thing in heaven or on earth that can separate us from His love,
    There is nothing in the earthly or spiritual realm that can divorce us from His care,
    There is no created thing including our own rebellious selves that can remove us from Him.

    No man or woman, principality or power can touch you or any blood-bought believer,
    WHY – because of what you are or what you did ? No !!
    Because you are a good Christian who reads the bible and prays ? No !
    Because you have done lots of good deeds and witnessed about the Lord? No !
    Because you have restrained yourself and tried to follow His good example? No !

    God’s faithfulness to you has nothing whatsoever to do with you,
    But it has everything – absolutely everything to do with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    You are accepted by God because He has accepted you in the Beloved, in Christ.
    You are accepted in Christ and you are accepted because of Him alone.

    There is nothing too dark or vile that can separate a believer from God,
    There is nothing so good or worthy that can gain an unbeliever His acceptance,
    – except believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
    It never has and it never will depend on man – it all depends on Him.

    Many Christians find this total acceptance by God, very difficult to understand,
    Many spend much time seeking to remain in His good books, by being “good”,
    They think that if their foot slips, or temptation strikes, that God’s favour is lost.
    Not so !!

    There is one and one basis alone for your acceptance by God, and mine,
    We are both accepted in Christ, and that acceptance has nothing to do with us.

    Our heavenly Father is fully satisfied with His Son on our behalf,
    – which means He is fully satisfied satisfied with us, because of Christ,
    Nothing in heaven and nothing on earth can alter this eternal gracious truth.
    Nothing you can do, or omit doing, will influence His acceptance of you, in Christ.

    Those times when the days seemed dark, do not influence His acceptance of you,
    Seasons of rebellion, or times when faith wears thin – never altered His love for you.

    He is like the shining sun, ever there to bestow His blessings upon His children,
    But dark clouds of rebellion or doubt, only hide His face, but never His acceptance.

    He has the finger of His grace upon your life and has engraved you on His hands,
    But like a wise parent with a temperamental child, He waits and waits and waits.

    Sometimes it appears that He has withdrawn His every blessing from you,
    But those are often the times He is drawing you closer to Himself, with cords of love.

    He waits for you simply because you are accepted in Christ,
    He waits for you to cease from your own striving, in a spirit of helplessness
    He waits for you to accept His terms of acceptance, not your own efforts to please.

    Jesus reminds us, ‘without Me you can do nothing’.
    And Paul questions, ‘who shall separate us from the love of God In Christ?’

    shall tribulation ?
    or distress ?
    or persecution ?
    or famine ?
    or nakedness ?
    or peril ?
    or sword ?

    or principalities ?
    or powers ?
    or things present ?
    or things to come ?
    or height ?
    or depth ?
    or any other creature ?
    I am persuaded that nothing shall separate us from His love

    For we are accepted eternally and unconditionally in the Beloved

  206. watchful Mar 8th 2013

    Anna M., I had a good chuckle about the old man being the one with the bad memory…you are so right! 🙂 Blessed words being spoken here by one who speaks as Jesus spake, and by them I have been pulled back out of danger, praise God. Lovely name you have, to have been named after Anna in the temple, I have been thinking about her lately…….Blessings to you.

  207. David, my point is, we are eternally secure.

  208. watchful Mar 8th 2013

    I get an idea of a pendulum being swung too far in one direction and then being swung too far in the opposite direction to try and compensate………….and so both are veering off into error. But doesn’t it seem that the answer is to just stay the course and preach the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD at all times, which is what Jesus and the apostles did. This is the plumbline, it hangs straight and true.

  209. watchful Mar 8th 2013

    Yes, it’s true Lightning Storm that we suffer for our sins, that He is judging and chastening us now so that we will not be condemned with the world, amen……….and also we remember that we suffer for doing good as well, and that He is able to deliver GODLY men from trials.

    A big amen to your comment that we turn the simple truth into a pretzel…..I had to chuckle at that one, at my own expense! 🙂 No wonder John the Baptist came to make our crooked paths straight, and no wonder Paul said that he would resolve to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified and that is what I will endeavour to do, by God’s grace.

  210. Anna M. Mar 8th 2013

    @ watchful re:I get an idea of a pendulum being swung too far in one direction and then being swung too far in the opposite direction to try and compensate

    …a deeply truthful concept! Much like overcorrecting while driving a vehicle..good intentions with BAD results..? Trying to balance an imbalance with an opposite extreme. This is our nature, both extremes becoming error. 🙁 Doubt that I post, not for cliff jumping today. 😀 ~ Be Blessed

  211. watchful Mar 8th 2013

    …you are so right Anna, that it’s our fallen human nature, the way that seemeth right to us……..but God’s ways are not like our ways, so by His grace we learn to lay down our ways and follow HIS simple ways……and thus let our Shepherd guide us back from that cliff! 🙂 Have a blessed day dear sister..

  212. Anna M. Mar 8th 2013

    I am a far-cry from trying to merit or keep salvation via law or works. ***NO Legalist*** Nor, desire my convictions to dictate those convictions of another. We’ll all give account. We’re all responsible before Him. At the same time, do we really have Christ’s Mind toward the Law? Can grace even exist without the law?

    RE: Our Goal is not to fulfill the Law neither is it to seek Grace….

    Where is the Mind of Christ here?
    Many confuse God’s general Words, precepts, with the ceremonial and cultural laws which looked forward to the Sacrificial Lamb Jesus Christ. Perhaps all need to clarify. The law term to many Christians is in reference to God’s general Words in writ.

    What exactly, is Jesus opinion of the fulfilling the Law?
    This Fulfill-er who now dwells in us, how is he manifest in us?

    As A Spirit who loves, reveres and fulfills the law?
    As a spirit which hates and derides the law?
    How is the Christ-One’s Heart seen in His People today?

    The spirit of our day toward God’s law is often seen here:

    In viewing Christs Heart in


    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Fulfill or Break?

    Deride.. synonyms: belittle, bad-mouth, blister, criticize, cut down to size, cut to the quick, decry, deprecate, depreciate, derogate, diminish, discount, discredit, disparage, dispraise, downgrade, downplay, dump on, knock, lower, minimize, pan, pooh pooh, poor mouth, put down, rip, roast, run down, scoff at, scorch, scorn, shoot down, shoot full of holes, slam, smear, sneer at, sour grapes, squash, squelch, take a swipe at, take down, take down a peg, tear down, underestimate, underrate, undervalue, write off [vilify, break]

    Antonyms: build up, exaggerate, praise, value, [do, keep, fulfill, honor, revere, praise ..]

  213. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Ken 1, yes we are Eternally secure if that’s our choice. Do you believe that a Christian for whatever reason, can choose to reject God and walk away if he desires to? Or do you believe that once we becaome a Christian, we stop having a free will?

  214. Ken1. I could not ever say it better than that. Why, because I believe it one hundred percent. He does not lie, He does not ‘tempt’ you. His words are fact and forever. You know what I find terribly lacking in the body of Christ, us, lack of faith. As the Lord chasened me through the years, He taught me patience, ‘faith’ by doing and a total love develop that does not touch an ‘earthly’ love (emotional). People who do not ‘trust’ Him at His Word, cannot trust Him as He is. They need more, their minds and ‘souls’ need more. Because He has nothing elso to give, man keeps reshuffling His words. It makes them feel more comfortable but takes them further from the Cross. Don’t question to the point of you put different meanings in His already words spoken. It will not fair well. When you put your feet on a solid foundation, it will never wash away. Until I offered my motely all to Him, I truly didn’t know His All. I can’t be shaken, for He is my destiny. It’s taken a lifetime. I was bullheaded. Others were wiser, faster. Everybody at his own pace. Yes, and He’s still dealing with me day by day. He’s teaching me thoughts , truth and spirit. I always heard ‘a good mind’ is terrible to lose’. No, No, No. An un-regenerated mind is best to lose. His mind is best to gain, truth and wisedom.. That’s another difference between the world’s version and my God. He reigns forever.

  215. David, i believe when we are saved (which is a “work” of the Holy Spirit) we are eternally sealed and that there is no way that we can be unsealed. I then have two choices – i can walk in the Spirit or i can walk in the flesh. If i choose to walk in the Spirit and at some time later, for what ever reason, i choose to walk in the flesh, i will loose rewards that i may have gained but will not loose my salvation, we are sealed. So we do have free will as a Christian but we do not have the free will/choice to unseal ourselves. Had i the power to seal myself? NO. Have i the power to unseal myself? NO. Hope that answers your question.

  216. Just for your thoughts!

    Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed [within his own mind].  Then when lust has conceived [in the mind], it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. (James 1 verse 14 thru 15.)

    The first Adam or man, was of the earth, and within his beginning desires over what he saw as his own self esteemed rights, chose rebellion against his Maker, thereby spurning the God of the living, and obviously forfeiting a right standing with the Eternal God, Who is Life Himself. Even though he was forewarned by God about the death that was hidden in the forbidden fruit, Adam from the moment that he chose to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, was participating in the evil choice of his own death. Adam with his wife Eve, broke faith with their Creator, and with the seductive temptation of Satan, freely choose for themselves the right to make their own decisions about what is good and what is evil, even before they ate of the Tree. Without repenting of his thoughts, the first man and the head of the house was to forsake his covenant with the God of Life and to consummate a new covenant with death in the eating of the good and evil of the Tree of Knowledge.

    Presently, because of the curse of death within the Tree of Knowledge, there is no parity in human judgment over what is good or what is evil. What one person decides is good or what is evil, may be completely different when compared to another person’s individual judgment of the same subjective good or subjective evil. One man’s good may be another man’s evil, or vice versa, and both persons are justified in their own eyes of rational human thought. Of course in society a consensus can be formed as to what constitutes good, as differentiated from evil, and laws are formed on the bases of human judgment to seemingly protect the society. But the laws that are rationally judged to be good for the society are nevertheless broken by those of a different and independent mind set, and even by those who made the laws.

    The only God of the living, gave Adam only one law or commandment saying: Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat, but of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, you may not eat of it, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. The consequences for the breaking of this one law given by the universal Law Maker remains catastrophic for mankind, for now the rule of sin and its consequences of death reigns in the heart and mind of man. The rebellious will of self serving sin, is in absolute opposition to the Eternal God of the living and His one Standard of Love. For God is Love and when the Absolute Standard of Love is forsaken, then His one universal law of love is broken, and all of mankind are found guilty, being made subject to their covenant with death. In reflection to that which is known, the root of sin, within itself, has a parity with good and evil, for sin’s self serving rational is derived from the one and the same root of the Tree of Knowledge that is intertwined within the neuronal roots of the self serving mind of mankind.

    When the one Garden law of the Lord God was willfully breached by Adam, then obliviously his faith in God was corrupted in self designing sin. Adam’s insurrection against the will of God, set in motion the flourishing of sin and all manner of corruption within the heart of all of humanity that would spring forth from Adam’s loins. Now, because sin has run rampant with out containment in the heart of man, God out of necessity gave more laws, such as the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai, so as to mitigate the catastrophic effects of sin. But, more just and righteous law does not negate the already existing law of sin giving way to death within the autonomous little gods of humanity, but only exacerbates the condemnation of sin. For if one law is broken then all laws are broken. Witness for your selves: All of the Ten Commandments, beginning with; I AM the Lord thy God, Thou shall have none other gods before Me, are all subject to the two Great Commandments of Love and Life. The First is: Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is One Lord; and thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And the second great law: Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself,  is tied to the first Great Commandment to love the Lord God of the living above all things. With the violation of any one of the Ten Commandments we have placed ourselves as primary judge and first in our own eyes of what is right and wrong for us, and relegated God as irrelevant to our idolatrous selves.

    No one is justified by the Decalogue [Ten Commandments], because with the good, just and holy Law in the Commandments of condemnation came the knowledge of sin, and all of humanity are held in the bondage of their own self idolatry, fostered by the demonic master who sets in motion our own self deceit. Therefore, all of humanity are condemned by the self rule of idolatrous sin with in the spirit of their minds, bringing forth the corruption of death to the soul. The soul that sins shall die.

    In the beginning of human life, Adam had life with the God of the living, but the love of God was exchanged for the love of self, and this idolatrous self, will seek its own justification. So then, by cause and effect, the autonomous nature of justifying self will, was set in the minds of our first parents, and the same self determining nature was genetically instilled in the loins of Adam and Eve. From that moment of self’s independence from God, the future seed of all humanity in Adam and Eve, would be conceived in sin and death. As a result of Adam’s treasonous insurrection against God, the Author of life, mankind now does what is natural for the autonomous self, and in humanities perversion of thought, chooses their own good and evil, and will justify themselves in their own eyes. After Adam’s rebellion to the God of the living, all of humanity will come into this world with a nature corrupted by the will of sin that is centered on self being first, and this idolatrous disposition of man is enmity to the ultimate good and perfect Will of the only Creator God, the Author and Life Sustainer of His creation.

  217. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Ken 1, interesting theology. Not sure what scriptures you have to support your “Sealed” thinking. I take it you must completely ignore 2 Peter 2:20-22.

  218. David, my dear David. I just have to answer you on your question again. It was also stated to me earlier. You are hooked on ‘free will’ and cannot get beyond it for now. When we make a decision of any kind, we use our free will. Humans couldn’t grow through life without operating in the “gift” God gave us(free will). We cannot make anybody do something (even ‘sin’). Same thing applies about choosing to go back into ‘sin’ once you’ve been living in a ‘secure’ life. We are leaving out the miracle of ‘ conviction. We must be convicted, not convenced. Everyone has a conscience. Some folk do not use their conscience and it ‘dies on the vine’ so to speak. Once you know the difference in an earthly life and you choose Life in Jesus Christ, the difference is night and day. You have to be Born Again, says our Lord and Master, to be Saved. He then shapes You as only He can. It might take a lifetime, as for me, but its the nost powerful gift known to man. Atheists, agnostics always lie, sin, and the Truth is not in them. They would change their ways, but then as God said, the truth is not in them, words, only words. They are not Born Again. Forever reason, is not a reason, David. No,, anyone for whatever reason to ‘change his mind’. His mind Was Never regenerated for whatever reason. God gives us all information we need. He has never given us everything He knows (we could not hold it all). There are going to be a lot of surprises up there, David. We’ll see folk we didn’t expect to see, probably. He is anything but dull. He is always fresh and amazing.

  219. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Joan, I know in your mind you can’t imagine any reason why a Christian would ever reject God and walk away. But in my 30+ years of Ministry, I have witnesses this many times. Even Christians can become discouraged with God. Sometimes through incredibly difficult circumstances, even Christians question where God is. I have seen Christians become so angry with God over the death of a child or some kind of abuse. They end up cursing God and completely rejecting and walking away. I have even witnessed some in this state, who then go on to mock God and other Christians. It would be very easy to just dismiss these as those who were never saved. That would be very unfair and untrue.

  220. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    Excellent word Anna M.

    Grace is NOT some”thing” given to us




    The “unmerited favor” that we were given was the GIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN US.

    The Holy Spirit is the GIFT to us, the FAVOR given to us.

    Zec 12:10 KJV
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

    Hbr 10:29 KJV
    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?


    1-Grace ENERGIZES us
    2-Grace EMPOWERS us
    3-Grace EQUIPS us
    4-Grace ENABLES us

    This is one of many reasons that we MUST be Spirit controlled, not SELF controlled.
    Why we must be COMPLETELY DEPENDENT upon the Holy Spirit in ALL THINGS.
    Why we must be COMPLETELY POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit.

  221. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    David Markham

    Those who do not KNOW the Father, KNOW Jesus, and KNOW the Holy Spirit walk away.

    People become discouraged because they are trying to ACCOMPLISH/ACHIEVE the SPIRITUAL LIFE by NATURAL strength.

    The spiritual Life is SUPERNATURALLY accomplished within us by COMPLETE SUBMISSION TO the Spirit of Grace.


  222. @ David
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit – until when?

    Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (KJV)

    Unto the day of redemption.

  223. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Lightning Storm, I respectfully say that you couldn’t be more wrong.

    It’s a complete copout to say that those who walk away never knew the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Also, Grace is not the Holy Spirit. Grace may be administered by the Holy Spirit, but it is not the Holy Spirit. You show a real lack of understanding of Grace. You come across as one who loves the Law and the harshness that it brings. “Unmerited favor” is also not the Holy Spirit.

  224. fabakary Mar 8th 2013

    Anna m: wrote
    “RE: Our Goal is not to fulfill the Law neither is it to seek Grace….

    Where is the Mind of Christ here?
    Many confuse God’s general Words, precepts, with the ceremonial and cultural laws which looked forward to the Sacrificial Lamb Jesus Christ. Perhaps all need to clarify. The law term to many Christians is in reference to God’s general Words in writ.

    What exactly, is Jesus opinion of the fulfilling the Law?
    This Fulfill-er who now dwells in us, how is he manifest in us? ”
    Anna M if it is because of a lack of understanding of what am saying i will be willing to reply to you. But when the issue is about defending something you believe , I will not have the time for that. What am saying is Christ is our goal. Don’t you understand what the word goal mean ? In dying with Christ we fulfill the law because we are dead to sin, but is that our goal ?Victory over sin is not our Goal, but Christ. We need Christ, whether we sin or not, because He is our Goal.Because you did not sin does not mean you are in union or fellowship with Christ. That will for so mean you are dead with Christ. Speaking about Grace i am saying to seek grace as something isolated from Christ, something standing apart is never our Goal. Any man can receive grace for various issues from God . It may be grace to minister, grace to be forgiven , etc but that does not mean the man is in union with Christ. I hope this explain better. Read again from below.

    Our Goal is not to fulfill the Law neither is it to seek Grace standing apart but deeper and deeper union with Christ.

    Paul fulfilled the Law through Christ, and received grace through Christ , but hear Him say “I press toward the mark “.

    So to fulfill the Law or receive grace is not the mark , but Christ. Let us not be satisfy with anything less than full union with Christ.

    Lets not be at ease with any spiritual blessing until we are one with the person (Christ).
    If we die with Christ, we fulfill the Law , because we are dead to sin, and that is through grace, and that is not the end , because we cannot have fellowship with Christ on the grave but we are also to be resurrected with the Living Christ, when we are resurrected together, that mean we are having fellowship and union together with the living Christ . This is the path to union, the goa

  225. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    David Markham

    Then Who is the Spirit of Grace, David?

    Who are all these other Spirits?

    These are the NAMES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Just as Jesus has different Names to describe the attributes of His Nature.
    Just as Father has different Names to describe the attributes of His Nature.

    Spirit of Life in Christ (Romans 8:2)

    Spirit of Adoption (Romans 8:15)

    Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3; Job 27:3)

    Spirit of Wisdom (Exodus 28:3)

    Spirit of Faith (2 Corinthians 4:13)

    Spirit of Meekness (Galatians 6:1)

    Holy Spirit of Promise (Ephesians 1:13)

    Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation (Ephesians 1:17)

    Spirit of Power and Love and a Sound Mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

    Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:29)

    Spirit of Grace and Supplication (Zech 12:10)

    Spirit of Truth (John 4:14;17:1; John 4:6)

    Spirit of Holiness (Romans 1:4)

    Spirit of Life (Revelation 11:11)

    Spirit of Prophecy (Revelation 19:10)

    Spirit of Glory of God (1 Peter 4:14)

    Spirit of Judgment (Isaiah 4:4)

    Spirit of Burning (Isaiah 28:6)

    Spirit of Counsel and Might (Isaiah 11:2)

    Spirit of Knowledge and the Fear of God

  226. @ Joan – Ken1. I could not ever say it better than that. Why, because I believe it one hundred percent.

    Joan, sorry i missed your post earlier and just saw it now.

    If you mean the longer post that i put up, well that was a daily devotional that was sent to me today, which i think says it all really. Thank you for your coments.

  227. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    David Markham

    I will not be offended if you don’t answer the following question, but are you a Oneness Pentecostal?

  228. No, David, not in my mind, in the Word of God do I say these things. Born again mind. The worldly mind everybody is so used to using can show us a lot of things, but not Christ’s kind of life. He hoped all would come to him, but all along He knew they wouldn’t. No, I never have seen a born again Christian turn aside. What is a Christian? They are not a loving, nice, do good, forever caring kind of human being. Yes, David, I have known the ones to curse God and want to die…Job’s wife saying. From a tragedy, deadkt mishap, whatever. They allow their soul to be twisted, where love was, turn to hate, etc. No emotion can be that strong to a Born Again Christian. You see, David, if self is not crushed, they cannot see God. There are Only two kinds of ‘religions’ The Way of the Cross, or the ‘Me, I and My’ religion. When one wins, the other loses. I trust God, all the way. I do not trust man as far as I see him, no matter how genuine he may be. I’ll love you God until You harm one of mine, whom you gave me in the first place. And dear David, when you pray (a born again) always pray His will to be done, we are never to pray for ‘pie in the sky’ type prayers. And another important thought, God is never, ever FAIR. He is JUST. These two do not mix. What I think fair, you may not.. Solomon can add to that with the case of the two women trying to say the baby boy was hers.

    I too can understand people turning away from God for many various reasons, but consider this. Some of those people who turned away from God, others turned to Him when tragedy struck them? Why? The ones who had bad things happen to them they left God; those who were abused, came running to Him. Blastpheming the Holy Spirit is the only way to anger God, and for good reason. (If they were Born Again). Could it be the true meaning of Blastphemy? Have we solved those scriptures in Hebrews? I dont know David. All I know is that I will put His word up against the world has to say in controdiction of my Lord and Savior. If God said it, True. If man says it, watch it.

  229. David Markham Mar 8th 2013

    Some of these apply to the Holy Spirit. Most of these appy to God the father. They are the attributes and virtues of God the Father. Remember, God is a Spirit, those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. Now if the Grace is the Holy Spirit, then how do you explain: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. You are not saved by the Holy Spirit, you are drawn by the Holy Spirit. You are saved by God’s grace accomplished by the completed work of Christ on the cross.


  230. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    There is a difference between having knowledge and believing about the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and actually KNOWING them as Persons.

    The Deep Intimacy that God requires from us is EXPERIENCED in our spirits/hearts and the parts of our souls that have received regeneration.

    This Intimacy, This fellowship is expected to be with ALL 3 PERSONS OF GOD.

    An intimate heart to heart and soul to soul fellowship with our Father; with our LORD AND MASTER JESUS; AND with the Holy Spirit.

    Leaving out Intimacy/Fellowship with any one of these Persons in our New Life is a life that is a glass half full.

  231. Lightning Storm Mar 8th 2013

    Thank you for answering David.

  232. Anna M. Mar 8th 2013

    fabakary….thanks for your input here. I know that God uses the keenness of others to sharpen each of us. My inquiry wasn’t meant to be a personal affront to you at all. I’m sorry if I didn’t select my words as carefully as I might have. I have always wanted answers to the hatred of the law; so prevalent in the Christians of our day. I was raised in a very staunch and rigid group, believing the law evil. I believed it for years, until one day God showed me that Christ didn’t share my view. I do consider the light God gives to others in this area, and am learning new depths in Him. Thankyou!

  233. Anna M. Mar 8th 2013

    Lightning Storm…thankyou so much, for the further insight you have shared on this topic. I love the “Who He Is” list. Isn’t he wonderful?

    Years I spent in vanity and pride,
    Caring not my Lord was crucified,
    Knowing not it was for me He died
    On Calvary.
    Mercy there was great, and grace was free;
    Pardon there was multiplied to me;
    There my burdened soul found liberty
    At Calvary.
    By God’s Word at last my sin I learned;
    Then I trembled at the law I’d spurned,
    Till my guilty soul imploring turned
    To Calvary.
    Now I’ve giv’n to Jesus everything,
    Now I gladly own Him as my King,
    Now my raptured soul can only sing
    Of Calvary!
    Oh, the love that drew salvation’s plan!
    Oh, the grace that brought it down to man!
    Oh, the mighty gulf that God did span
    At Calvary!

  234. fabakary Mar 8th 2013

    God bless Anna M, and sorry for misunderstanding you too. I taught you just wanted to raise a debate , and i was not in that mood, as it is mostly does not glorify the Lord.The Lord be with you.

  235. GaryB Mar 8th 2013

    David Markham

    You have me confused with someone else’s comments.

    Are you a Apostolic Pentecostal?

  236. Marilyn Crow Mar 8th 2013

    I`ve been up the river with some friends for a few days & could not get reception & so couldn`t get on line. However I`ve now read all the interesting comments & its been quite lively.


    That comment you made, doesn`t really make sense. `You are not saved by the Holy Spirit.`!!!!!

    The whole Godhead counseled together in eternity for our salvation. The Father`s grace & mercy sent His son, Christ coming & dying for us, & the Holy Spirit implanting Christ`s life, nature, DNA in us. Each have a part in our glorious salvation & eternal inheritance.

    Hope that helps.

  237. TO all saints
    when one wont answer a question
    they are HIDING something.
    And something aint right in their spirit.
    THE WISDOM of GOD is peaceable, gentle easy to be
    entreated. IF fear promotes one and then a false peace ensues
    Beware the end of that man.
    For he is in deception.Fear caused the ONCE saved always saved
    doctrine. Fear caused the NO lake of fire at the end.
    Fear a mind of fear. BUT then they recieve a FALSE peace
    and a new a void of truth understanding.
    Something is NOT .
    and some of you all are starting to see it in a certain man.
    IF a scripture is taken out of text…………… will contradict
    the simplicity of scrips in other places.
    SO i say again. ALL is by GRACE.
    BUT also beware………………..for MEN can fail of the Grace of GOD.
    BY grace the spirit indwells
    and by Grace the spirit unctions us.
    By grace we are convicted by the inner man
    TIS not the flesh that tells us DONT LOOK
    it aint US that corrrects US.
    to recieve the instructions of righteouness by GOD
    and by SOUND doctrine.and it ours choice to be obediant
    UNTO THE SPIRIT . even as paul once
    said…………….I laboured more abundantely than them all

    Something aint right at all in a certain man.
    and he has avoided my question like i have the plague.
    When one avoids questions…………….something aint right.
    Way too many chiefs who seem to know it all………
    BUT i wonder………………………ARE SOULS being
    taught about COMING to JESUS………………..
    IDLE time…………………………is not good.

  238. Richard Savage Mar 8th 2013

    Sometimes this forum sets me a-feared. So many people, so many voices, so many different opinions … yet still one Jesus, one Holy Spirit, one Father and one Bible.

    Has the world really so fragmented us that we don’t agree on a single passage of Scripture, or One Lord Jesus.

    I wonder.

  239. Jo Sappenfield Mar 8th 2013

    …the peaceable fruit of righteousness comes by embracing the chastening work of God’s Fatherhood in our lives. If our walk with God does not involve conviction of sin, and lifestyle of repentance, we will be condemned with the world because sin earns a wage. That wage is the wrath of God against a world who thumbed their nose at the atoning work of Christ and His GRACE that came as a result. His willing to suffer separation from The Father (and our Father) on behalf of sinful humanity deserves a reward one way or another–and He will get it. People who spurn “discipleship” and the cost of it, are not true witnesses to the truth…they are something…but a witness to the truth, they are not. Loving God means we learn to respond to Him on HIS terms–and He has the right to require it of us. This is not a popular lifestyle–it is a “set apart” lifestyle. To represent GRACE as a weapon to mock or to to slap people who express their faith in a little different way than themselves–those who appreciate structure and traditions and are principle focused–IS CRUEL–and hateful. It is to them Jesus will say, “I never knew you”–because they “never knew” people who they should have considered brethren–worthy of kindness and respect.

  240. GaryB Mar 8th 2013

    TO all saints
    when one wont answer a question
    they are HIDING something.
    And something aint right in their spirit. Unquote

    I know exactly what you mean. When people have pet peeve doctrines they bring all manner of confusion as well.

  241. Godliness with contentment………………
    and content means content…………….and godliness
    mean godliness.
    IF a man has ten dollars……………but wants just one more.
    IS HE CONTENT…………………..NO.
    A man who worries about this life, about material goods
    DOES he TRUST GOD at his WORD………………NO.
    WHEN a man can be content in all circumstances
    in lackings , colds fastings………….etc
    THEN that man IS centered above , not here on earth.
    WHEN a man can say GOD your will be DONE
    and MEAN IT……………………..that heart is above.
    WHEN a man has no worries of this life
    then that mans heart is above. NO fear…………….
    no fear of losing even his life………………or all goods.
    SOMe can say this………………..
    BUT my question is…………………….HOW do YOU PRAY?
    WHAT do you seek?
    IS it the gifts from above……………………or the things
    of earth. who mind earthly things.
    GODLINESS with contentment………………
    WE must as a child……………….TRUST only GOD.
    AND JESUS was quite clear on what and how we were to pray.
    BY grace i can say…………………I HAVE not given those things
    ANY THOUGHT peroid.
    and I have never lacked.
    WHO wants to pray a prayer of FAITH.
    A GREAT example is KING solomons………..
    YOU know the ONE where it said IT PLEASED GOD.
    And in hebrews we know that is FAITH.
    LOOK at what he prayed FOR
    and NEVER again listen to many in the pulpits
    I have PEACE. because I TRUST GOD.
    and IF JESUS said not to give those things any thought.
    Well…………………..I NEVER HAVE.
    and i must say…………………….I have NEVER lacked.
    whether i have tis meant ONLY to GIVE away to the POOR
    and whether i LACKED all………………..and was down to
    nuaght but hard times, beatings…………….and even threat of death
    STILL i have ALL for i have CHRIST
    and STILL have NO Fear of anything man can do
    FOR even the harshest of times and mass persecutions
    NOR………………….do i fear death
    FOR TO BE ABSENT from the body is to be present with the LORD. OH…………………….HOW PAUL KNEW TRUTH
    and those apostles…………
    and HOW we hear PAUL who had experience GREAT trials, afflictions, beatings………………..SAY
    I WOULD RATHER………………..I KID yall NOT
    YES he says I WOULD RATHER GLORY in mine infirmites
    ANd peter and john knew the great BLESSINGS
    of being counted worthy to suffer shame for HIS NAME.
    NOT only did they rejoice………………
    they REJOICED because they were COUNTED WORTHY of GOD
    to suffer shame for HIS NAME.
    THOUGH i have yet to experinece this
    and when this comes upon me
    I KNOW MYGOD is greater than I
    and the POWER of GOD shall rest upon me
    ALL for HIS GLORY.
    SO without fear i say aloud.
    COME what MAY , SO Long as GOD is GLORIFIED
    and i SLEEP and REST with GREAT PEACE.
    A heart above and not here on this earth, nor its things
    IS A HEART SET FREE> amen. amen. amen and amen.

  242. RICHARD have no fear………………..
    IF we would but FOCUS as a CHURCH
    instead of so called meats…………….
    WE would grow in grace.
    FOR many now bring odd meats
    which twist doctrine.
    ITS simple…………………….as a child
    AND in these days………………….that aint heard from many.
    READ……………..HIS WORDS in the bible
    and JUST TRUST HIM. IF he says NOT to
    dont………………….IF HE SAYS TOO…………………DO.
    BUT many have become So prideful
    they have been given over to strange fire and meat
    and bring ODD doctrines, which do nothing
    but gender strife.
    and no matter how often they are corrected
    they continue in this strange revealtion of strange fire and meats
    which contradict the simplicity of the WORD of GOD.
    they save NONE………………..they focuse on
    this new meat………………..and have become NOT FULL of
    truth , but rather so full of themselves………………that no matter
    what simple truth one brings………………..they have only
    a clouded judgement.
    IF we want to LIVE FOR CHRIST
    then we must OPERATE as did the early church.
    MANY here KNOW truth, they know .
    BUT do we as a church
    give this TRUTH , this simplicty of CHRIST and him crucified
    to the lost………………….or do we focus on meats, which aint profiting some of them who bring it.
    SO i say
    COMMIT thy WORKS unto the LORD………………..and THEN
    thy thoughts shall be established.
    to the bringer of odd doctrine……………..KNOW this
    NONE of us here will be measured on HOW much we knew
    ……………….we shall be judged of GOD
    for what we DID unto others……………..
    did we go out, did we GIVE all, did we ?
    TO the adventists…………………JESUS did not tell the goats
    you did not worship on fri or sat
    TO the masters of their own wisdom
    HE did not say……………… the goats
    Depart because you did not know all………………
    THE reason the goats shall be KICKED OUT
    was for WHY and HOW they treated others……………..
    so IF we focus on that………………..and ALSO SEEK knowledge
    understanding , etc……………………then TRUE THOUGHTS
    shall be established. IF NOT…………………only darkened understanding.
    FOR its not JUST what we did unto others
    ITS WHY we did as we did.
    Was it for US……………………..OR ONLY FOR GOD
    and with just LOVE for them.
    And the why is A BIG ONE, just as important as the what.
    FOR if i tell a child i will give him five dollars if he gives
    another child one…………………WELL ANY SINNER COULD DO THAT……………………..but it aint for the other person
    THE PROSPERITY GOSPLE IS OF SATAN . and i delcare this truth ALOUD and to all.
    JESUS said WHEN you give………………you give to those who cant recompenes you……………..
    and YE shall be recompensed…………………AT THE RESSURECTION……………….
    GIVE to those who cannot repay
    EXPECTING……………..N O T H I N G
    and GREAT Shall you reward be……………….IN HEAVEN.

  243. LEARN………………………….
    learn to be CONTENT in all circumstances.
    and understand that ALL whom GOD loves
    he will chasten and scourge.
    WHO wants to be TRULY RICH………………….
    and i dont speak of vantiy ……………………
    I speak of being TRULY RICH……………….as was paul,
    peter and john…………who HAD no silver and gold
    BUT HAD the true riches of CHRIST within.
    THEN understand……………………
    LOVE the LORD thy GOD with all thy heart
    soul, strength,mind………….and LOVE thy neighbor as thyself.
    AS THYSELF. IF you were hungry
    would you want one to look the other way
    WOULD YOU……………………
    so then understand that the heart of man is wicked.
    BUT THE LOVE OF GOD………………….is ALL for others sake.
    temporary riches are not to be sought for…………..
    BUT if they happen to increase……………SET NOT YOUR HEART UPON THEM……………….GIVE THEM AWAY.
    this world is starving to death , many are.
    FOR GODS WORD, and for food as well.
    IF we see a poor man, void of food,
    and we look the other way, or reason as men, that i need
    to get this new thing first, or my kid needs a new toy………..
    THEN i promise the LOVE of GOD is not in us.
    WE are fat, here in america……………….
    and yet many who have……………..still think if only i had this or that, THEN i could do greater for GOD…………
    LIES of satan. IT matters NOT if i lacked all……………..STILL i can DO all FOR MY POWER is not of this world not its things
    the problem is ………………we so material focused
    that all are monies are tied up in material comforts
    all the while we have no money to GIVE to the poor.
    SO i say as did JESUS……………….SELL that stuff
    and give to the poor and come follow CHRIST.
    WONT hear that in any church. I aint even heard any man i know say it………….and when i do i am mocked HUGE.
    YET JESUS said this……………….and it appears the early church
    DID it………………..for they sold lands, etc………………..and distrubtiion was made. HECK even annais and saphira sold it
    BUT THEN KEPT back part……………….and DIED.
    THE early church and apostels KNEW the truth OF JESUS
    HE himself had said this…………………………….
    THIS is why there is so few miracles here.
    Because our trust and faith is in what is SEEN,
    its simple…………….its easy. and we can work together as a church. BUT things must be burned out of ALL of us………….
    even as it was in all apostels etc…………….
    WANT to be a SON …………………or a bastard……………….
    I say sons…………………for a bastard knows not his father.
    EMBRACE the cross and die to the flesh………………
    THIS life i speak of it not hard at all…………….ITS THE EASIEST peaceful life…………………..and LIFE ABUNDANTELY.

  244. alphafaith Mar 9th 2013

    Its simple really –

    Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
    Matt 22:37-40 NKJV

    There is saftey in this knowledge. It handles things both vertically and horizontally for the Christian – love.

  245. @ Richard
    Sometimes this forum sets me a-feared. So many people, so many voices, so many different opinions … yet still one Jesus, one Holy Spirit, one Father and one Bible.

    Has the world really so fragmented us that we don’t agree on a single passage of Scripture, or One Lord Jesus.

    I wonder.

    Luke 18 “b” Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    Richard, the Word tells us it will be this way in the END.

    And to me randell, is just talking blah.

  246. David Markham Mar 9th 2013

    For those who asked. No I am not a “oneness” Pentcostal. I grew up in a classical Pentecostal denomination. We fully believed in the Trinity.

  247. David Markham Mar 9th 2013

    Miss Crow, it was the shed blood of Jesus that purchased our Salvation. We are saved because of what Christ did. The Holy Spirit did not bleed and die for my sins. That was the work of Jesus. Yes the Godhead are one in unison. But they each have their own role to play. We are Saved because of what Jesus the Son accomplished on the cross.

  248. Richard Savage – I wondered about the same thing for a long time until the Lord led my wife and I to these passages of scripture.

    Malachi 3:16-18

    “Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name. “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.” Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.”

    Isaiah 60:1-2

    “Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.”

  249. Averyl Mar 9th 2013

    randall lowery & alphafaith, – AMEN!!!

    God bless you all, my dear brothers & sisters!

  250. Anna M. Mar 9th 2013

    Good night, faithful Bereans!

    May we have the hearts receiving His Words with all readiness of mind; searching the scriptures daily, assuring these things are so.
    Acts 17:11 -paraphrased

    May His blessings keep us through the night watches as we mediate on His Word. Psalm 119: 148 -paraphrased

  251. Marilyn Crow Mar 9th 2013

    Thankyou Anna for that encouraging word. Well I hope some are still up, still it gives me time to write.

    David Markham

    Thankyou for replying. So glad we agree on our salvation & here is the full scripture –

    `how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.` (Heb. 9: 14)

    The point being `through the eternal Spirit,` thus the Holy Spirit had a part in our salvation.

    Marilyn (not Miss but Mrs)

  252. Marilyn Crow Mar 9th 2013

    David Markham

    Now I would like to take up your challenge at the top of this post.

    `There is not one single scripture in the New Testament which declares the Holy Spirit convicts of sin…So I challenge anyone.. `

    And `Again, find me a scripture which says it is the role or operation of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.`

    The Greek word for convict is `elegohos,` or `elegeho,` which mean – reproof, conviction, evidence, confute, admonish, convince, tell a fault, rebuke.

    The Holy Spirit through Timothy tells us –

    ` All scripture is given by inspiriation of God & is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.` (2 Tim. 3: 16)

    Thus all scripture OT & NT has reproof, correction, conviction of the Holy Spirit. That is why we read it so He can guide & teach us as the Lord said He would in John 16: 12 – 15.

    You are right in that the Holy Spirit is `making the word alive to us & giving us understanding of its revelation.` Great Truth.
    However, the other aspect of that truth is for the Holy Spirit to bring to light our thoughts & motives.

    `For the word of God is quick & powerful & sharper than any two –
    edged sword, piecing even to the dividing asunder of soul & spirit, & of the joints & marrow, & is a discerner of the thoughts & intents of the heart.` (Heb. 4: 12)

    The Holy Spirit by His word convinces us, tells our fault, convicts, reproves, (all in the Greek word meaning) shows us our state & then we can turn & ask His enabling in that area to make us more like Christ. This is the santification process.

    No scripture is to be treated alone as one can twist it, thus when we read scripture we need to read everything pertaining to that subject to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

    So again I say that all scripture is written by the Holy Spirit & He continues to guide, teach, correct, reprove, convict, admonish, encourage, uplift etc.

    However I sense that you are actually meaning, like a harsh treatment by the Spirit of God. And I would definitely agree that that is not right.

    Thankyou for stepping forward & saying what you believe. It has made me address what I believe & I pray we all can have further enlightenment by the Holy Spirit on this important subject.

    Finally, could you tell me (& the others) what you believe about the sanctifying process of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

    Appreciating discussing, Marilyn. (Mrs Crow)

  253. Truthseeker Mar 9th 2013

    Hyper grace, name and claim it, the prosperity teaching, once saved always saved, the world wide revival, the acceptance of same sex marriages and homosexaulity, women bishops, modernising the christian church, making God for the 21st century, and so forth, are destroying what is left of the christian church with more destruction to come.
    I was baptised in the Baptist Church because I had to wait three months for a baptismal service in other churches. Received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost after I became a born again christian at a gathering of christian voluteers who were part of a drug centre which upset the local Elim Pentecostal church who adamantly said such a baptism could only be performed in a pentecostal church. Received sound teaching from a Anglican church which saw revival yaking place in the midst. Shared my testimony in the churches of then Northern Ireland despite the presence of the IRA and UDA who were preapred to kill for their beliefs. Went to Israel with a trip organised by the Baptist Times and the Roman Catholic Church which people fell out with each whilst on tour. Maked friends with Muslims in Jerusalem and before taking off to come back to Heathrow Airport, one engine failed on the aircraft which would have brought the jet airline down if it had taken off with over 200 passengers.
    Yes, I have lived under the Grace of God, have been through trials and tribulations, have faced various church leaderships who did not want me in their churches because of my inquisitive nature and applying the Word of God to christian living which in many areas was glossed over and ignored.
    And now, I am being told that I do not know anything about the ways of God, should accept that God is doing something new, jump into the rivers of blessing (polluted by man), and receive the (occultish) signs and wonders as this is part of the world wide revival.
    What is next on the agenda for the church that man has tampered with?
    What has been shared amongst believers commenting on Andrew’s web site, this has been most encouraging. May this continue. I would have fallen away from Him who has saved me a long time ago if I had embraced what I shared in my first sentence above.
    Praise the Lord!
    Is there any further encouragement as we face the End Times together?

  254. GaryB Mar 9th 2013

    I thought it was interesting about the article on Rick Warren, even though I am not real surprised.

    Sometimes we can feel all along in this walk when you see so many going astray.

    Man is obviously tearing down all that God has established but I firmly believe God has an elect that will not bow the knee to Baal. They have been elected by the Grace of God.

    Romans 11:3-5
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    If you read this whole chapter Paul is speaking of the Jews but he is telling this to the Gentiles.

    He makes it quite clear to take heed least we fall as well. We have been called by the election of grace.

    Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    I’m sharing this with you as we can all rejoice that God has elected us to His grace and I thought it might encourage anyone reading.

  255. GaryB Mar 9th 2013


    One more thing, here’s the article where the emergent church pastor marries his gay son and his partner. brian-mclaren-practices-what-he-preaches-by-elliott-nesch,

  256. watchful Mar 9th 2013

    If we can be comfortable with sin then I would say our conscience is seared and we have lost our saltiness……….To live is Christ, that is good enough for me. My natural mind might not understand this truth in every detail and nuance, or exactly how it is He convicts me – but I don’t need to, it’s enough to believe it and by His grace to get to the place of living it in truth. It’s enough to BE convicted without dissecting exactly how He does it. Conviction and repentance is something that is GRANTED, it is a GIFT, so that means it doesn’t come from ourselves, how could it…a criminal generally will not bust himself, no criminal thinks what he is doing is so bad.

    I suspect that if we think we are even capable of understanding the Almighty God, the Ancient of Days, the Prince of Peace, our El Shaddai….etc, etc, then it can too easily become a platform for pride and self-righteousness to creep in. If we wander too far from the foundation/sheepfold, the plain and simple truth of the gospel, then it’s too easy to start to go astray, inch by inch…….the mind/heart is DECEITFULLY wicked and wants to be like God knowing everything. I preach to myself. Yes, He reveals things, yes, He gives us glimpses of different facets of Himself at different times, but that is for HIS glory not ours, it makes us be in awe and worship………HIM. By the grace of our Almighty Father we need to make sure we are beholding Him from the safety of the sheepfold/foundation and not from “somewhere out there”….because “somewhere out there” is the new age delusion which, think about it…… is exactly the gospel, but without the foundation!

    Randall, I am blessed as always by the blessed words that flow………you are preaching a pure GOSPEL, something more rare than diamonds……it makes me praise the Father and the Son! When there is a famine of the word, I am so grateful for bread. I’m not claiming to measure up to it, because no I am not, but I sure could not and would not deny the truth of what you are saying, and it is like blessed living water…..I weep because of wishing I had fellowship and heard it like this from the beginning when I was younger, though I am without excuse because I had the same bible to learn from and the same Holy Spirit.

  257. Barry Schmidt Mar 9th 2013

    Many comment on this topic remind me of the way the world makes a deal a promise and a covenant. Everything looks like ITS INCLUDED in the deal but you have to examine the FINE PRINT to discover HARDLY NOTHING IS INCLUDED IN THE PROMISE AND THE COVENANT DEAL! You discover later that YOU have to be responsible for so may things that the GOOD NEWS deal turns out to be a BAD NEWS DEAL.

    Fiends God doesn’t make covenant promises THAT WAY. What His covenant promises HE DOES. There is NO FINE PRINT TO GODS COVENANT DEALS WITH US.

    God covenant CLEARLY promises not only that He will forgive us all ALL OUR SINS, not only CLEARLY PROMISES that He will NEVER LEAVE US NOR FORSAKE US but that His covenant promises also THAT HE WILL CAUSE US BY HIS GRACE TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES AND TO CUASE US TO PLEASE HIM ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES!

    Why are you ( who claim to be His Covenant representative) demanding that THESE THINGS AREN’T INCLUDED IN HIS COVENANT WITH HIS PEOPLE??? Why are you demanding that WE have to be responsible for What GOD HIMSELF PROMISES TO DO ON OUR BEHALF? He will rebuke you to your face!!!

    for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,” (Hebrews 13:5 NASB)
    Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26, 27 NASB)
    For finding fault with them, He says, “B ehold, days are coming, says the Lord, W hen I will effect a new covenant W ith the house of I srael and with the house of J udah; N ot like the covenant which I made with their fathers O n the day when I took them by the hand T o lead them out of the land of E gypt; F or they did not continue in M y covenant, A nd I did not care for them, says the Lord. “F or this is the covenant that I will make with the house of I srael A fter those days, says the Lord : I will put M y laws into their minds, A nd I will write them on their hearts. A nd I will be their G od, A nd they shall be M y people. “A nd they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, A nd everyone his brother, saying, ‘K now the Lord,’ F or all will know M e, F rom the least to the greatest of them. “F or I will be merciful to their iniquities, A nd I will remember their sins no more.” (Hebrews 8:8-12 NASB)


  258. Anna M. Mar 9th 2013

    watchful ~ re:might not understand this [any] truth in every detail and nuance, * * * * * How very true, 5 stars!

    😀 I think it would surprise us at just how ‘little’ we actually do understand. We see through a glass darkly, and we also choose spiritual blindness at times. We simply see what we want to see. I have noticed this to be one of man’s greatest ‘constants’. We are as the ant in it’s goings. We busy ourselves to days end, with what is on our level. The heavens are above the earth, so His ways above our ways. I have never tried to explain God’s methods to an ant, how tiring that might be. If the wee dumb squirm wasn’t grateful, ignored or bit me..I think I would simply squish it! Hmmm! God gives us the smallest doses of truth, as we are have so finite a capacity for truth. Eternity will allow us the time and Godlikenes to understand God’s ways.. Until then, we walk by faith and not by sight. I spend years trying to understand his methods, one day I realized that if I just understood his Character, his methods would not matter one whit! The all powerful, wise, holy, loving, merciful, just, knowing.. (have you got all day?)…this One is in-charge and capable; knowing and doing what he deems best on our behalf. He is glorified for all eternities ages, and rightfully so. We are above all, a blessed people.

    This has been a great thread for stretching our spiritual muscles to greater strength and balance! I have found some discomfort in some of these stretchings..yet, no pain no gain? We delight in learning what he is teaching us through others. Thanks, for the wonderful posts from Fellow Saints who long for His Appearing.

    1 Peter 1:
    3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy [has] begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for [us],
    5 [we] who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    6 Wherein [we] greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, [we] are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7 that the trial of [our] faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, [we] love; in whom, though now [we] see him not, yet believing, [we] rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9 receiving the end of [our] faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto [us]:
    11 searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in [us] did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them””that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.””
    13 ¶ Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    14 as obedient children, not fashioning [our]selves according to the former lusts in [our] ignorance:
    15 but as he which has called [us] is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    16 because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. Lev. 11.44, 45 ; 19.2
    17 And if [we] call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man’s work, pass the time of [our] sojourning here in fear:
    18 forasmuch as [we] know that [we] were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from vain conversation received by tradition from [our] fathers;
    19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for [us],
    21 who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that [our] faith and hope might be in God.
    22 ¶ Seeing [we] have purified [our] souls “”in obeying the truth through the Spirit”” unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that [we] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.
    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
    25 but the word of the Lord endures for ever. Is. 40.6-9
    And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto [us].
    1 Peter 1:3-25

    Ps. 115:33 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

  259. Anna M. Mar 9th 2013

    TyronePalmer – RE: I wondered about the same thing for a long time until the Lord led my wife and I to these passages of scripture.


    Malachi 3:16-18

    “Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name. “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.” Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.”

    Isaiah 60:1-2

    “Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.”

  260. watchful Mar 9th 2013

    Yes, it is by grace are we saved……by grace do we have faith… grace do we work out our salvation……by grace ought we to walk as Jesus walked and to be as He is in the world, but how many of us can say honestly we are walking in all the grace that has been provided. Yes, it is all by His grace, but we are not all availing ourselves of it as much as we could and ought to be……..and THAT to me is the problem, not that His grace is lacking, but that we are not making enough use of it…..Why do we need grace to believe that He will much more feed us than the sparrows if, for example, we maintain a bulging bank account instead of giving all that we have to the poor? But Jesus said simply………”If you love me you will obey my commands”. And what are His commands?…the sermon on the mount. Where did Jesus say “Away from me I never knew you?…right near the end of that sermon…..only those who DO the will of the Father……..And what is the will of the Father?…..Jesus told us His will in the sermon on the mount.

    His grace doesn’t manipulate us like puppets, we do have a part in this to simply believe Him and do what He told us to do………to live according to the sermon on the mount……..which is like a recipe for walking in the Spirit…..and what is walking in the Spirit but living by faith.

    “THE early church and apostels KNEW the truth OF JESUS
    HE himself had said this…………………………….
    THIS is why there is so few miracles here.
    Because our trust and faith is in what is SEEN,”

    Ouch, yes, ain’t it the truth……the salt stings a little but in a meek and gentle sort of way……..keep on passing the salt brother!

  261. watchful Mar 9th 2013 post was meant to follow Barry Schmidt’s post above, but I see mine weren’t the only fingers flying across the keyboard…amen Anna……..this last little while has been a blessed eye-opener for me as well.

  262. I do want to reply to hyper-grace. It is the complete opposite to God’s Grace and it is perverted. Anytime God gives us attributes of any kind, the enemy comes up with a crafty opposite. It is soooo obvious to ‘see and know’. The herd mentallity will always try to destroy God’s words. The faster he throws it out, the more careful We, His elect need to be. I did not know about this latest gimmic, until Andrew put it up. Yes, the world will accept it, His Sheep, who He calls by name, will not. It is, in one word, ludircous.

  263. fabakary Mar 9th 2013

    Light Storm:
    “ This Intimacy, This fellowship is expected to be with ALL 3 PERSONS OF GOD.
    An intimate heart to heart and soul to soul fellowship with our Father; with our LORD AND MASTER JESUS; AND with the Holy Spirit.
    Leaving out Intimacy/Fellowship with any one of these Persons in our New Life is a life that is a glass half full.”
    Dear Light storm, I will really love your taught more on the differences between how to fellowship between the father and Jesus. I have been hearing these concepts for some time ago and to be honest do not understand the least of what that mean. I once heard a preacher say something like “many know fellowship with Christ but do not know fellowship with the father “. I would had understand the preacher better if he did not believe the divinity of Christ, but to believe that Christ is God and yet proclaim such was something I just can’t understand. What I mean for example in my case 99 percent of devotion is not with the prayers of human language , now if I am in communion with Christ, how and when should I sift my communion or fellowship to the Father ? Please I just want to hear your taught, do not take it personal .
    Now to me, there is nothing that the father can give you that you will not find in Christ; because all that The father has are Christ’s. “ All that the father has are mine (John16v15).And this includes fellowship. You cannot have fellowship with Christ without having fellowship with the father because the Father is in Christ. “I in them and thou in me that they me perfect in one..(John17v23). “He that acknowledge the son hath the Fathr(1John2v23). ‘For it pleases the father that in him should all fullness dwell..(Colo.1v19”
    “To wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself…(2Corin5v19). We cannot be one with Christ without being one with the Father, because the father is in Christ.
    The holy spirit cannot show you or gives you anything which is not Christ’s or in Christ “he shall take of mine and shew it unto you ..(John15v16). So the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit are all Christ’s. The Holy Spirit gives from Christ. All the riches of God are in Christ. God has no other spiritual blessings or blesses anyone with any other riches , apart from those in Christ. “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in CHRIST (Ephe.1v3). The scripture also says “we are complete in Christ. So if we have fellowship with Christ we are already in fellowship with the Father because the father is in Christ. This understanding helps me a lot in my devotional life that I do not have to worry when I should have fellowship with the father or Christ, because having fellowship with Christ is having fellowship with the father because all of the father is in Christ.

  264. Malachi 3:16-18

    “Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name. “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.” Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.”

    Isaiah 60:1-2

    “Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.”
    the FLOCK of the SHEPARD of the SHEEP.
    KNOW error from truth
    THOSE who serve the LORD from the heart
    and those who serve only by mouth.
    and the LAMBS of CHRIST will HEAR and KNOW
    only TRUTH, and anothers voice they will NOT follow
    but shall flee from.
    TO know the Grace of GOD is to know life and life abundantely.
    To fail of the Grace of GOD…………….is all man.
    FOR the LORD has provided us the way out
    and this way is in CHRIST
    and we know we are OF HIM…………….when we do
    his commandments, and his commandments are not grievious.
    To trust and Obey……………………is LIFE
    anything else only leads astray and the end is death.
    TRUST GOD, and not men, not words of men, which contradict
    the SIMPLICITY which is in CHRIST.
    and UNLEARN what many have been taught
    by those who have twisted what he said
    to fit their agenda and beliefs. FOR many , i say many have
    twisted what was so simple a babe could know
    INTO a pretzle that only brings confusion and contradicts
    places in the bible.
    ITS easy. FORGOT all you learned in churches under any man.
    GO back as a babe, with a FIRST LOVE
    and reread, and keep reading JESUS own WORDS.

  265. Lightning Storm Mar 9th 2013

    Perhaps the DEFINITION of Grace should be applied to knowledge and understanding.

    To be PRECISE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING of what the writers are saying to the readers….don’t we have to know when the definition changes from verse to verse?

    Pay particular attention to the verses below.


    1) grace
    a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

    2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
    a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

    3) what is due to grace
    a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
    b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
    1) a gift of grace
    2) benefit, bounty

    4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward


    Benefit, Benefactor:
    “grace,” is once rendered “benefit,” 2Cr 1:15; it stresses the character of the “benefit,” as the effect of the gracious disposition of the benefactor.

    3 Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    Bounty, Bountifully:
    “grace,” is rendered, “bounty” in 1Cr 16:3, RV, (AV, “liberality”), by metonymy for a material gift.
    See BENEFIT, No. 3.

    A-1 Noun Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    Favor, Favored:

    (a) objectively, “grace in a person, graciousness,”

    (b) subjectively,

    (1) “grace on the part of a giver, favor, kindness,”

    (2) “a sense of favor received, thanks.” It is rendered “favor” in Luk 1:30; 2:52; Act 2:47; 7:10, 46; 24:27; 25:9, RV (for AV, “pleasure”); Act 25:3; see more fully under GRACE.

    1 Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    has various uses,

    (a) objective, that which bestows or occasions pleasure, delight, or causes favorable regard; it is applied, e.g., to beauty, or gracefulness of person, Luk 2:40; act, 2Cr 8:6, or speech, Luk 4:22, RV, “words of grace” (AV, “gracious words”); Col 4:6;

    (b) subjective,

    (1) on the part of the bestower, the friendly disposition from which the kindly act proceeds, graciousness, loving-kindness, goodwill generally, e.g., Act 7:10; especially with reference to the Divine favor or “grace,” e.g., Act 14:26; in this respect there is stress on its freeness and universality, its spontaneous character, as in the case of God’s redemptive mercy, and the pleasure or joy He designs for the recipient; thus it is set in contrast with debt, Rom 4:4, 16, with works, Rom 11:6, and with law, Jhn 1:17; see also, e.g., Rom 6:14, 15; Gal 5:4;

    (2) on the part of the receiver, a sense of the favor bestowed, a feeling of gratitude, e.g., Rom 6:17 (“thanks”); in this respect it sometimes signifies “to be thankful,” e.g., Luk 17:9 (“doth he thank the servant?” lit., “hath he thanks to”); 1Ti 1:12;

    (c) in another objective sense, the effect of “grace,” the spiritual state of those who have experienced its exercise, whether

    (1) a state of “grace,” e.g., Rom 5:2; 1Pe 5:12; 2Pe 3:18, or

    (2) a proof thereof in practical effects, deeds of “grace,” e.g., 1Cr 16:3, RV, “bounty” (AV, “liberality”); 2Cr 8:6, 19 (in 2Cr 9:8 it means the sum of earthly blessings); the power and equipment for ministry, e.g., Rom 1:5; 12:6; 15:15; 1Cr 3:10; Gal 2:9; Eph 3:2, 7.

    To be in favor with is to find “grace” with, e.g., Act 2:47; hence it appears in this sense at the beginning and the end of several Epistles, where the writer desires “grace” from God for the readers, e.g., Rom 1:7; 1Cr 1:3; in this respect it is connected with the imperative mood of the word chairo, “to rejoice,” a mode of greeting among Greeks, e.g., Act 15:23; Jam 1:1 (marg.); 2Jo 1:10, 11, RV, “greeting” (AV, “God speed”).

    The fact that “grace” is received both from God the Father, 2Cr 1:12, and from Christ, Gal 1:6; Rom 5:15 (where both are mentioned), is a testimony to the deity of Christ. See also 2Th 1:12, where the phrase “according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ” is to be taken with each of the preceding clauses, “in you,” “and ye in Him.”

    In Jam 4:6, “But He giveth more grace” (Greek, “a greater grace,” RV, marg.), the statement is to be taken in connection with the preceding verse, which contains two remonstrating, rhetorical questions, “Think ye that the Scripture speaketh in vain?” and “Doth the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) which He made to dwell in us long unto envying?” (see the RV). The implied answer to each is “it cannot be so.” Accordingly, if those who are acting so flagrantly, as if it were so, will listen to the Scripture instead of letting it speak in vain, and will act so that the Holy Spirit may have His way within, God will give even “a greater grace,” namely, all that follows from humbleness and from turning away from the world.

    Note: The corresponding verb charitoo, “to endue with Divine favor or grace,” is used in Luk 1:28, “highly favored” (marg., “endued with grace”) and Eph 1:6, AV, “hath made . . . accepted;” RV, “freely bestowed” (marg., “enduced.”).

    A-2 Noun Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    Liberal, Liberality, Liberally:
    is rendered “liberality” in 1Cr 16:3, AV.
    See BOUNTY, No. 3.

    A-1 Noun Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    Thank, Thanks (Noun and Verb), Thankful, Thankfulness, Thanksgiving, Thankworthy:
    for the meanings of which see GRACE, No. 1, is rendered “thank” in Luk 6:32-34; in Luk 17:9, “doth he thank” is lit., “hath he thanks to;” it is rendered “thanks (be to God)” in Rom 6:17, RV (AV, “God be thanked”); “thanks” in 1Cr 15:57; in 1Ti 1:12; 2Ti 1:3, “I thank” is, lit., “I have thanks;” “thankworthy,” 1Pe 2:19, AV (RV, “acceptable”).
    See ACCEPT, D, No. 2.

    [View Entry in Its Context]
    D-2 Noun Strong’s Number: g5485 Greek: charis

    Accept, Accepted, Acceptable:
    “grace,” indicating favor on the part of the giver, “thanks” on the part of the receiver, is rendered “acceptable” in 1Pe 2:19, 20. See margin.

  266. Lightning Storm Mar 9th 2013


    Yes, it is true that if you have SEEN Jesus Christ, you have SEEN the Father. In other words, their very NATURE IS IDENTICAL.

    Jesus Christ is the One who delineates the 3 persons.

    Jesus tells us to Pray TO the Father.
    Jesus prays that we will be ONE WITH THE FATHER.
    Jesus tells us RECEIVE the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus tells us we NEED the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus SENDS us the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus tells us He will intercede for us.
    Paul tells us the Holy Spirit will intercede for us.

    John 17 ; Luke 11:2-4 ; Luke 11:13

    Act 1:2 KJV
    Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

    Act 1:3 KJV
    To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    Act 1:4 KJV
    And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

    Act 1:5 KJV
    For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    Jhn 21:25 KJV
    And there are ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH JESUS DID, the which, IF THEY SHOULD BE WRITTEN every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

  267. fabakary Mar 9th 2013

    I am not the least satisfy with what you wrote lighting storm in fact my question is not answer and you are touching other areas.

    You wrote:”Jesus tells us to Pray TO the Father.” But he did not say we just Pray to the father but to pray in His NAME, meaning when we approach him , we have approach the father. That is still saying the Father is in Christ. And he seeks those that worship him in Christ.

    “Jesus prays that we will be ONE WITH THE FATHER.” We can only be one with the father by being one with Christ, we cannot be one with the father apart from being one with Christ. I wrote this before.
    The fact that all the father riches are in Christ, reveals that you cannot received any thing from the father apart from Christ. So is I have fellowship with Christ I have fellowship with the Father, because the father is in Christ. So to say that to have fellowship Christ , is not enough is not scriptural. Because all that we need from the father is in Christ, is clearly written from the scripture.
    As for your case when do you fellowship with the father and when do you fellowship with Christ ? how do you do it. I believe every truth must have a practical application in our daily lives, not just some mysterious concepts, that cant help. The truth of God is liberating.

  268. Lightning Storm Mar 9th 2013


    I praise each Person of the Trinity all day.
    I express gratefulness to each Person every day
    I tell each Person of the Trinity I love them and how much I desire not to grieve any of them AND I desire to please them by doing ALL THE WILL OF GOD.

    I worship each Person of the Trinity every day by approaching the Throne in the pattern that Almighty God gave to us. In that pattern ALL 3 persons are acknowledged and worshiped.

    That pattern is the Tabernacle pattern…..called the TENT OF MEETING.

  269. Lightning Storm Mar 9th 2013

    Entering into the Presence of GOD is synonymous with entering into the Glory of GOD.

    Entering into the Presence of GOD/Glory of GOD includes ALL 3 persons.
    The word GOD means ALL 3 PERSONS.

    GOD is 3 persons.
    God the Father, God the Son Jesus, God theHoly Spirit.

    Jesus rent the veil so that we may intimately fellowship with the Father without sacrificing animals or without dying in His Holy Presence.
    Jesus sent the Holy Spirit so that we may intimately fellowship with Jesus AND the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

    This intimate fellowship is how we get to KNOW each person heart to heart and soul to soul.

    This is what we are all looking forward to in its PERFECTION AND COMPLETION when we enter Heaven. We have this in PART NOW, if we follow Jesus Christ.

  270. fabakary Mar 9th 2013

    Lighting storm, I can hear you and what you believe but don’t tell me Christ is not enough. That is not scriptural. You cannot find any spiritual blessing apart from Christ. It is in Christ , you will have the father, and it is in Christ you will received from the holy spirit. Christ is enough , it is error to say Christ is not enough , when you are told you cannot received any other spiritual riches except through him and by Him.

  271. Lightning Storm Mar 9th 2013

    Where did I say Christ is not enough?

    I said ALL 3 Persons of God are CO-EQUAL IN NATURE, POWER, AND ETERNITY.

    But Jesus quite plainly pointed out that they are SEPARATE PERSONS but ONE GOD.

  272. Matt 18:6-9
    6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
    7 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
    8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
    9If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

    To stumble someone is to lead them into sin, sin that will ultimately destroy them, damn them, according to Jesus. According to 1 Cor 8, just stumbling someone by encouraging them to violate their conscience is enough to destroy them and is described as sinning against Christ.

    “will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined(appolumi-perished), the brother for whose sake Christ died. 1Cor 8:10-11

    If you just stumble ONE into sin!!! It would be better for you to be cast into the sea with a millstone around your neck.

    Grace as a license to sin is that stumbling block. Can’t you see that? The gospel that allows for compromise with sin is no gospel at all as I read my Bible. It is a heresy, the foremost damnable heresy there is and some of the most famous and popular preachers in America preach it with a vengeance as gospel truth. God have mercy on them!

    Grace has ceased to be the path to freedom, now grace grants us permission to indulge sin, with impunity. The gospel of grace has been perverted, as Jude 4 warns us, into licentiousness(license to sin) and the fruit is that church people continue to live lives corrupted with sin and many will end up in hell because of it, deceived by religion and religious men, promising them freedom while being slaves of corruption. Jesus is saying sin leads to hell and He says it again and again. Jesus warns of stumbling blocks and false prophets.

    Who is the stumbling block?? Who is false? The one who tells you, you have to repent, turn away, stop sinning, find the grace in Christ to live free from sin that HE promises to us and which Paul’s gospel endorses or the person who is telling you that grace is an excuse for you to continue is sin?

  273. fabakary Mar 9th 2013

    Where did I say Christ is not enough?
    you wrote:”An intimate heart to heart and soul to soul fellowship with our Father; with our LORD AND MASTER JESUS; AND with the Holy Spirit.
    Leaving out Intimacy/Fellowship with any one of these Persons in our New Life is a life that is a glass half full.””
    Now let me ask you from what you wrote is it possible to have fellowship with Christ, while having not fellowship with the Father ? Is it possible ? since you say leaving any of those persons is a glass half full.Scripturally it is not possible to have fellowship with Christ without having fellowship with the father because the father is in Christ.

  274. Roger (NZ) Mar 9th 2013


    Almighty God is triune in nature;
    Our Father who is in Heaven, – His Son, Jesus, who is the only Messiah, (or Christ) of Almighty God, and His Word, – and the Holy Spirit.

    When the Holy Spirit indwells a repentant, born-again believer and follower of Lord Jesus – then we know that because of the triune nature of Almighty God, that Father and Son are in unity with the Holy Spirit.

    Yet Lord Jesus is also sitting on the right hand of His Father, in Heaven.

    We must be aware in these days that we do not follow another christ, another jesus, and listen to another gospel – which will lead to deception. As an example, a whole doctrine has been built around the one scripture that says: “..which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:..” from Col.1 – yet those that follow this doctrine fail to add the 40+ references to: “ Christ Jesus..” and “..abide in Me..” where Lord Jesus speaks of Himself.

    We all need to ensure that we believe in, and follow, the one true Christ Jesus our risen and ascended Lord, the only Messiah of Almighty God, the Word of God, who will visibly return and establish His Kingdom on Earth.

  275. fabakary Mar 9th 2013

    I can hear Roger, what am saying is simply written in the scriptures , that the Father is in Christ, and all that we can received from the father is only in Christ, .When we have fellowship with Christ , we are in fellowship with the father, because the father is in Christ. I am not comfortable hearing things as if Christ is not enough, something contradictory to the scriptures.Yes I agree with you in being in Christ and abiding in Christ. The father and his riches are only in Christ and our our oneness with the father is only as we are one in christ because the father is in christ.

  276. Richard Savage Mar 9th 2013

    Where in Scripture may be pray to, praise or have direct contact wit the Holy Spirit.

    The Bible leads me to understand there is a protocol in Heaven, pray to the Father, through the Son … no mention of the Holy Spirit.

    Show me, please, where we may have direct contact in prayer, with the Holy Spirit.

  277. Marilyn Crow Mar 9th 2013

    David Markham

    You may have missed my reply to you (about 23 back). A few more thoughts.
    `Every scripture is God breathed, and profitable unto teaching unto CONVICTION unto correction, for instructing in righteousness.` (2 Tim. 3: 16 Rhm)

    I was talking with my husband, Trevor about your comments, `I have heard all my life….` & he thought maybe what you `heard,` was presented as `condemnation.` That would have come over as heavy, putting down, a feeling of never being good enough. etc.`

    We know that there is `now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…` (Rom. 8:1) Thus the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Timothy has to do with teaching, training, instruction, resetting the direction of a person`s life. (Phillips)

    All these show the motive of our heavenly Father to train His sons & not to squash them. Is that what you were meaning?

    Hope this is of benefit. Marilyn.

  278. @ Richard

    Dear Richard, i believe from scripture we are to Praise all Three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, going by the following scriptures. But i do not see anywhere in scripture that we are to pray “to” the Holy Spirit. Like you, i believe we are to pray to the Father through the Son/Jesus, our Mediator. And i believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to Teach (Christians) and convict the unregenerate sinner of his sin/lost state.

    To the Praise of the Father
    Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    To the Praise of the Son/Jesus
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    To the Praise of the Holy Spirit
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (KJV)

    Every blessing

  279. Richard, Ken and all,

    I agree we are only told to pray to the Father in Jesus name.

    There are so many new and strange doctrines going around now that we do not find in the scriptures. I have heard people in some church groups are now praying to angels and sending them out to answer their prayers.

    In these last days I feel its important to just follow what the Bible shows and the pattern that God has given us.

    It makes one wonder why is everybody trying to find something new that the scriptures do not directly teach on but it sounds very logical?


  280. Be blessed to all who LOVE the LORD in sincerity.
    Gary., i see, that you SEE, that many, have strayed
    from the simplicity which is in CHRIST.
    And yes, i have met many hardened men
    who KNOW not the truth nor follow JESUS in truth
    and have a dark understanding of one scrip and bring
    all the scrips they can, which always contradict what they say,
    and they bring these scrips to try and make us see this ONE
    huge gem that they think they have………….
    And always this only genders strife and divisions
    and where these are……………….IS EVERY EVIL WORK.
    You RIGHT on GARY……………..
    mens reasonings to make them seem or look right in
    and heres the KEY WORDS……………THEIR OWN SIGHT.
    cause by Grace they aint decieving me.
    So lets make it REAL EASY for the once saved always saved group.
    and say it Like this. ONCE one is saved they are truly always saved…………..SO LONG as they continue in the GOODNESS of GOD…………….otherwise THEY TOO shall be CUT OFF.
    THERE , I hope that helped our friend SEE the truth
    a BIT more clearly.

  281. EVEN PAUL , KNEW the truth of THAT.
    THe same PAUL who wrote ephesinas
    WROTE romans.
    and warned massively about the GOODNESS of GOD
    and SEVERITY.
    NOW if the jews were cast out or cut out from lack of faith
    HE tells the GENTILES hey now fellows
    FOR if GOD spared NOT the natural branches TAKE HEED
    that he spare not thee………
    and then goes on to say BEHOLD thefore the GOODNESS of GOD and Severity of GOD
    he tells HOW the jews can be graffed back in by Faith
    and then he tells the SAVED church
    HOW they can be CUT OFF, if they continue NOT in HIS GOODNESS.
    EVEN paul spoke of himself, a appostle that spread the gosple,
    perhaps more than any ever has
    and paul says…………..I KEEP MY BODY under subjection,
    lest even after preaching the gosple i TOO BE A CASTAWAY.
    HE GOT that FROM JESUS who spoke of the branches that get cast out and burned .
    And we have ONE on this SIGHT , NOT DAVID, but another
    who beleives we only lose rewards if we sin.
    TELL THAT TO JAMES…………….HE would have said
    IF YOU SEE, a BROTHER or SISTER in a sin
    and save a SOUL, yes a SOUL from death, and cover a MULTITUDE of sins.
    JESUS was clear,,,,,,,,,,,,,HE who follows him and continues in his word……………..CONTINUES in HIS GOODNESS.
    This man i speak of……………has embraced MENS reasonings
    and i have talked to a few like this.
    And they were SILENT when i pointed out good long and many scriptures tellin otherwise. SO i have hope for this man too.

  282. To all know you are loved.
    What is soon coming upon the earth towards all believers
    is a time of great persecutions.
    and we had all BETTER be deeply engrained in the TRUTH of
    GODS HOLY WORD, and not the reasonings of men
    or we will fall away and go the way of delusion.
    Times aint about to get easier, nor some BIG enlightenment.
    TIS the opposite. CAUSE JESUS said this would be how it was AT THE END. And by grace, i see it forming VERY fast right in front of us. No men to rebuke the leaven
    has caused the LUMP to SWELL to great heights in churches.
    BUT I WILL rebuke all false doctrines. FOR i only want the peoples to COME out of delusions. amen

  283. Roger (NZ) Mar 10th 2013

    Richard, Gary, Ken, Randall, and all 🙂

    Like you, I find no scripture that we are to pray to the Holy Spirit, although Paul Yonghi Cho (now David) did teach this error at one time, together with visualisation.

    I do read that both our Heavenly Father and Son, (Lord Jesus) are Kings, that both have thrones.

    As others have said, we read that the Holy Spirit will direct us toward, and glorify, Lord Jesus, and that Lord Jesus taught we should pray to the Father, in His name.

    We do indeed need to stand on Biblical truths, more than ever in these times. Let us continue to encourage each other, and correct, in the love which is Christ Jesus our Lord. May we also learn from each other, and test each teaching we hear against Scripture, and the truth we receive from the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit..

    In His love,

  284. Lightning Storm Mar 10th 2013


    The Holy Spirit is our COMFORTER…do you not ask Him to comfort you?

    The Holy Spirit is our TEACHER….do you not ask Him to teach you?

    Jhn 14:26 KJV
    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    The Holy Spirit Prays through me; He tells me what to pray.

    Rom 8:26 NASB
    In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

    Rom 8:27 NASB
    and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

    I worship all 3 persons because ALL THREE ARE GOD.
    I love all 3 persons because ALL THREE ARE GOD.
    I obey all 3 persons because ALL THREE ARE GOD.

    Act 13:2 KJV
    As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, THE HOLY GHOST SAID, “Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.”

    Act 13:3 KJV
    And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.

    Act 13:4 KJV
    So they, BEING SENT FORTH BY THE HOLY GHOST, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

    Act 15:28 KJV
    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

    Act 16:6 KJV
    Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,


    It is True that John 17 says that Father is “in” Jesus and Jesus is “in” the Father and we who are born again are “in” Jesus.

    To you that means LITERALLY inside of each other.

    To me that means UNITED IN ONE NATURE… mind, one heart, one soul…..ONE PLAN; ONE PURPOSE.

    There are many many scriptures that talk about our FELLOWSHIP with each of the Persons of God.
    This intimate Fellowship is called KOINONIA.

    Here are a few.

    2Cr 13:14 KJV
    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion[2842](KOINONIA) of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. [[[The second [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, [a city] of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.]]]

    Phl 2:1 KJV
    If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship[2842] (KOINONIA)of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

    Phl 3:10 KJV
    That I may KNOW HIM, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship[2842] of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

    1Jo 1:3 KJV
    That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship[2842] with us: and truly our fellowship[2842] (KOINONIA) [is] with the Father, AND with His Son Jesus Christ.


    It makes ME and MY EXPERIENCE with the Trinity INSUFFICIENT.

  285. Lightning Storm Mar 10th 2013

    I re-read my posts and do not see where I have said to PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    IF talking to the Holy Spirit is considered PRAYER to you people, then so be it.

    I stated that I worship, love, and praise the Holy Spirit, as well as Father and Jesus.

    When I enter into the Presence of God…..I enter into the Presence of all 3 Persons….just as the Tabernacle Pattern teaches us to.

  286. Marilyn Crow Mar 10th 2013

    David Markham.

    You were right in that `there is not one single scripture in the NT, which declares the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of sin,` no, because there are hundreds.

    The Bible is written by the Holy Spirit & He uses His word to expose & bring conviction. (2 Tim. 3: 16 Rhm)

    The Holy Spirit by His word is able to discern our thoughts & motives even when we can`t. Thus when reading the Holy Spirit`s words He tells us of sin, His light shines on our hearts,& we are quickened to the truth. We are convicted but not condemned.

    Here are some Holy Spirit words that bring light & conviction.

    Eph. 5.
    – walk in love,
    -do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you.
    -there must be no filthiness & silly talk or coarse jesting.
    -do not be partakers with them.
    -do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but…expose them.
    -do not be drunk with wine.

    Phil. 4.
    -be anxious for nothing.
    -whatever is true, honorable, right & pure….dwell on those things.

    Col. 3.
    -set your mind on things above, not on the things that are on the earth.

    I could go on & on through out the Holy Spirit`s writings that expose our motives, convict us & lead us into Christ`s righteousness.

    I think you may have been heading towards that righteousness
    but you didn`t explain it. Would be good if you did.

    All the best. Marilyn.

  287. fabakary Mar 10th 2013

    Lighting Storm :”Having FELLOWSIP (KOINONIA) with ONLY 1 PERSON OF THE TRINITY, DOES NOT make any of the Trinity INSUFFICIENT.

    It makes ME and MY EXPERIENCE with the Trinity INSUFFICIENT.”
    Having fellowship with one without the other is not scriptural. Don’t tell me you can have fellowship with Christ without having fellowship[ with Christ, the father being in Christ.

  288. fabakary Mar 10th 2013

    Lighting Storm :”Having FELLOWSIP (KOINONIA) with ONLY 1 PERSON OF THE TRINITY, DOES NOT make any of the Trinity INSUFFICIENT.

    It makes ME and MY EXPERIENCE with the Trinity INSUFFICIENT.”
    Having fellowship with one without the other is not scriptural. Don’t tell me you can have fellowship with Christ without having fellowship[ with the Father, the father being in Christ.

  289. Lightning Storm Mar 10th 2013


    Believe whatever you wish.
    May the Peace of God be fulfilled in you.

  290. fabakary Mar 10th 2013

    Amen the same be with you , lighting storm, Christ is indeed our ALL, all that we need is in Him. Stay bless

  291. Christian journalist Mar 10th 2013

    Having been in Christ for many years and seen and experienced the decline of the church, false teachings and prophecies have taken hold causing so much confusion, erroneous doctrines, wolves dressed up as sheep, the emphasis of get God’s blessings is to sow financial seeds to those proclaiming this, and deception holds the church to the effect that churchianity has replaced christianity.
    The warnings given by the Almighty God by His Holy Spirit through His Word are being tossed aside. His Son’s name is used ad lib for mans purposes and pleasures whilst the name of Jesus has become on the lips of many as a blasphemous word to include christians who want things in His name.
    The crossroad has been reached and His warnings are being no longer heard with people deciding whom they will follow which is not the Lord Jesus Christ.
    The Lord himself is no longer repeating Himself. Only men are repeating themselves to be heard and the the direction they are going.
    The web site set up by brother Andrew will be blocked as the End Times progresses and everything will be monitored and censored what believers say and share on the internet. This will include methods of communication such as telephones.
    As a journalist, my writings are being looked at by unsuspecting authorites and whether we accept persecution in the western hemisphere or not, this will become apparent with those who love and put Christ first in their lives.

  292. Anna M. Mar 10th 2013

    @ Christian journalist..very true,

    Where might we avail ourselves to your writings?

  293. watchful Mar 10th 2013

    The early church and OT saints managed just fine without a Strong’s Dictionary, Lightning Storm…………it’s nice to have, and I suppose God can use it, but at the same time much more important that our dependance is on the Lord. It is not about informing the carnal mind, we actually need to put aside the carnal mind…………..because the thing about becoming as a child is that they believe and trust even though they don’t fully understand. There is something in not needing to dissect things so much any more – as for Grace, I’m thankful and satisfied just to have it.

    Psa 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

    Psa 131:2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul [is] even as a weaned child.

    Psa 131:3 Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.

    All the steps involved in going into the Holy Place have been accomplished for us in Christ Jesus, have they not?…and since we are in Him and already seated in heavenly places anyway, we can now come boldly to the Throne of Grace BY Him, BY His Spirit, and actually I believe we can come to the place where we never leave it. When I look at the Law I am looking and learning of what Jesus has accomplished, I don’t look at it to see what I have to accomplish…….

  294. Lightning Storm Mar 10th 2013

    My answer watchful:

    If Jesus had to do it, so do we.

    We are to follow Him. So whatever Jesus did/or does is what we are to do.

    Are we “above” Jesus? Did Jesus’ death buy us the freedom to enter the Presence of God however we please?

    Jesus followed the Tabernacle Pattern of entering into His Father’s Presence. He also taught the Pattern in the Lord’s Prayer; in the Last Supper; and His 3 1/2 year ministry manifests the Pattern.

    The Flesh profits nothing. The church is POWERLESS because it lives in the Flesh.

    Moral Flesh or Immoral Flesh, it matters not.

    The Flesh is put into the Fire of God.

  295. Lightning Storm Mar 10th 2013

    The FEAR OF GOD is defined :


    Of course the early church had no need for Strong’s or Vines! How ridiculous a statement.

    The early church were Hebrews who spoke and read Hebrew. The OT was written in Hebrew not English.

    The scribes of the NT TRANSLATED the Hebrew into Aramaic and Greek for the Gentiles. Many of the educated people in NT times knew Greek, even though they were not Greek.

    Those scribes were LIVING Vines and Strong’s.

    I won’t be posting on this article any longer.

  296. watchful Mar 10th 2013

    Be blessed of the Lord, Lightning Storm….All I know to say is that my HEART knew what grace was, and my HEART knew what fear of the Lord was, until my mind stood up and demanded definitions and explanations, and then not being satisfied even with that, began splitting hairs with a microscope too!……It’s my mind that GETS IN THE WAY of understanding, so I want to tell it to just sit down again and stay there….because I agree with you that grace is a Person. Knowledge, understanding, wisdom also……is a Person… Him we have all that we need.

  297. Michael Deitz Mar 10th 2013

    I can’t thank you all enough for causing me to acutely examine what I do believe. I hope to think that I have a “teachable” spirit even after 41 years of intense experiences. A few years ago the Spirit did correct me (ever so gently as a friend) concerning letting my experiences or understanding (personal revelation) get in the way of Him leading me into Truth. I sense that “teachable” spirit on this site. If this site causes me to run and get my Bible, then, it is a good thing! As we recount the years from The Finished Work of Jesus The Christ to now many “things” have changed. THE FINISHED WORK HAS NOT. We should never limit this EVENT to solely our own understanding and individual revelation. The “sin” and “grace” issue was heated then as it is now. This should cause us all to leave all of our doctrinal labels and hang ups at the Holy Spirit’s disposal. May I at least suggest that it is in particular how each one of us view and apply the climatic event of The Crucifixion of Jesus (the undisputed ultimate sacrifice). “Behold, the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD!” (John 1:29). John (the Baptizer) knew full well that the sin offering (under Levitical Law) was accomplished once a year for “forgiveness of sins” for the year. It included the priest, the offender (sinner), and the sacrifice (the “unblemished” lamb). The “sinner” presents the lamb for the priest to examine for blemish. After the acceptance of the lamb by the priest the offender (sinner) laid his hands on the lamb (the sacrifice) thus transferring his sin to the “sinless” lamb. The priest did NOT examine the offender (sinner) nor give any remark to the person about their sin. THE FOCUS IS ON THE OFFERING, THE LAMB! The priest then sacrifices the lamb for the sins of the people (person) taking the blood and applying it to the mercy (grace) seat of the ark of the covenant. This was “a SHADOW (are you still living in the shadow?) of the GOOD things to come and NOT the very form of things, can NEVER by the same sacrifices year by year (or SUNDAY TO SUNDAY), which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed (“we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all” Heb 10:10), would NO LONGER have had the CONSCIOUSNESS OF SINS. But in those sacrifices there is a REMINDER of sins year by year” (second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, you get my drift) Heb 10:1-3. This should be a good indicator of how we view the One sacrifice (in it’s entirety The Finished Work) for sins for all time. Our “CONSCIOUSNESS” (“Suneidesis” Grk. literally means “a knowing,” a co-knowledge with one’s self) should be “NO LONGER” of sin! In hearing some I am concerned that we would take issue with the “grace” that Paul described and preached/taught. It wasn’t “hyper grace” but “superabounding (Huperperisseuo) grace”. “For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died, MUCH MORE (huperperisseuo) did the GRACE of God and the gift by the GRACE of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many” (Romans 5:15). So much for “hyper grace”!

    Much Blessings!
    Mike D.

  298. I was blessed by what you shared above Mike D, Praise the Lord… 🙂

  299. Mike D, that is a very good exposition that a fully agree with. We can get to know truth when we look back at the type/shadow of the things that were to/have come.

    Every blessing

  300. Richard Savage Mar 10th 2013

    Thank you Mike D. Yes, it is a blessing to read.

  301. Roger (NZ) Mar 10th 2013

    May I add my Amen, and thankyou Mike..

  302. chas351 Mar 11th 2013


    Hebrews 6 should also be interpreted in line with

    1Cor3: 15-16 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
    Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

    ~how could a person be a Child of God, Chosen, become God’s Temple, a royal Priest and then ‘later’ because they changed ‘their mind’ go to hell?

    That implies Grace is insufficient, Salvation, The Cross, The Blood of Jesus ‘Not Enough’??

    that nullifies Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified .

    2Tim1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
    which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

    VERY CLEAR: “has saved us” > not ‘will save us’ (Salvation is always “Today”)

    Rm8:17a: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; (the real question to ask is: “IF a person is a child”)

    1Peter2:9a but ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people

    Eph1:4a According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (predestination)

    John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;
    and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand

    VERY VERY CLEAR “never perish” “unable to pluck from the Fathers hand”

    These verses clearly say we have Eternal Life “NOW’

    Titus3:5, saved now
    Eph2:8-9, saved now
    1Jn5:11-13, know you have eternal life
    Jn5:24, now passed from death to life

    1 John 3:1-3
    Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God
    Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
    Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,
    but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
    And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    Romans 8:38-39
    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,
    neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth,
    nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord….
    except for those people who will lose their salvation… NO, it doesn’t say that!!

  303. chas351 Mar 11th 2013

    John Treat

    the key word is “tasted”

    ‘they tasted but did not get saved in the first place’
    ‘they were religious’ they heard the word, felt the power & presence of God, did all the motions but didnt get born again> ie. actually received Jesus, the Holy Spirit into them and got Sealed once and for all.

    ref. all my comments on Salvation Once.

    & while your here>

    Peace to all of God’s children.

  304. chas351 Mar 11th 2013

    Michael Deitz

    Proverbs 27:17
    As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another 🙂


  305. and here paul tells the CHURCH of BELIEVERS
    Be not HIGHMINDED but fear
    For is GOD spared not the natural branches
    Take heed lest he spare NOT YOU
    Behold therefore the goodness and severity of GOD
    on them which fell, severity, but toward THEE, YES
    us BELEIVERS in Christ, GOODNESS,
    OTHERWISE believers thou shalt ALSO be CUT OFF.
    CHRIST is NOT the ministir of sin.
    FOR if while we SEEK to be JUSTIFIED by CHRIST
    we ourselves are ALSO FOUND SINNERS,
    IS CHRIST therefore the MINISTIR of sin? GOD FORBID
    FOR if I build again the things which i destroyed
    I MAKE MYSELF a transgressor.
    OH how often paul, peter, jude, james,
    CHRIST himself, warned us to GO and SIN NO MORE.
    and to CONTINUE in CHRIST……….that is our daily choice
    he wont MAKE us abide in HIM. CHOOSE ye this day
    and every day…………whom ye shall serve.
    FOR if you walk after the flesh…………….you shall die
    BUT if YOU through the SPRIRIT do MORTIFY the deeds of the flesh. WELL you shall LIVE.
    tis a choice.
    YES our REWARD is the crown at the END of our faith.
    TO WIN CHRIST, and to be FOUND in HIM.
    Many are chaning and twisting scrips.
    PAUL , james , jude……….ALL warned NOT TO SIN
    that death is the end.
    But some have sat under preachers who have bought the leaven.
    And i have reasoned with men similair………….and they
    all bring scrips which only contradict in other places.
    THEN they have to keep mixing up scrips and only
    confusions and strifes occur.
    I hear them not, for Grace ensues…………and keeps
    me safely from these men.
    and on that note…………….I do love you all.
    and am off to have peaceful rest in the LORD
    as i sleep tonight.
    Warn. warn and keep them bodies under subjection.
    Sin not…………..walk after the spirit, not the flesh.

  306. Marilyn Crow Mar 11th 2013

    Amen Randell. You spoke well to my soul.

  307. Quote: the key word is “tasted”

    ‘they tasted but did not get saved in the first place’
    ‘they were religious’ they heard the word, felt the power & presence of God, did all the motions but didnt get born again> ie. actually received Jesus, the Holy Spirit into them and got Sealed once and for all. Quote!!

    The problem is the Bible does not say what this statement is saying.

    This has been added and is an opinion of what “tasted” means.

    We are told in scripture not to add or take away. It is easy just to pull a word out of context and make it say what you want it to say.

    Why not just take the Bible at face value and not add a private interpretation to it.

  308. Christian journalist Mar 11th 2013

    This is for Anna M:

    My recent article has been used world wide. The emphasis of doing so that it is not altered, so I trust believers that they will do so.

    The content is self explanatory. I do not argue what has been written and this comes from experience due to some wishing to exhalt themselves in the public domain.

    “Ignorance and complacency are not virtues”

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53 verse 6

    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3 verse 5

    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5 verse 25

    Throughtout 2012 and 2013 the christian church has faced division from within over homosexuality and the acceptance of same sex marriages in church. Christians are themselves are divided over these two issues due to both outside and inside pressures on how to bring the church into the 21st century.

    Does God love homosexuals? Of course! God loves all people. That means everyone. It also means that christians should love homosexuals. God does not, however, love homosexuality.

    The Mosaic law required that people who committed homosexual acts were to be put to death. Of course, no true christian today would expect a homosexual to be put to death. Christ came to free us from our bondage under the law. Some may say that Almighty God only viewed homosexuality as a sin in the Old Testament, but because of Christ’s sacrifice, is considered that it is alright for today. The Word of God has to be altered and twisted in order to come up with this understanding. Homosexuality is unnatural. Men and women were created, very obviously, to connect with one another in a particular way, and not with others of the same sex. One of the most obvious aspects of this is procreation. Men cannot procreate with other men, nor can women procreate with other women. If everyone were homosexual, lacking the medical technology we now have, humanity would have become extinct long ago.

    Christians are called to love everyone, even their enemies and that includes homosexuals (this is not romantic love, but true love). Loving homosexuals does not mean accepting homosexual practices. On the contrary, true love seeks the best for the one who is loved. True love always involves being truthful, even if it hurts, though that “hurtful” truth can be presented in gentle and respectful ways.

    If someone is not a christian, and is involved in homosexual activity, chances are that no amount of preaching is going to change their mind. Their position is fostered by the sinful nature which dwells within, and from which, without Christ, they have no escape. To them, homosexuality is just a lifestyle, whether they believe it is the way they were born, or it is a choice. Society has accepted this stance as well and just serves to nurture their belief that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. For this reason, the primary goal should be to reach these people with the gospel of Christ. Until and unless they receive the Lord, they will have no reason to seek to change.

    With the homosexual who claims to be a christian, they should be shown that, from a biblical standpoint, from God’s point of view, homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuality is a sin that destroys their relationship with God, and it is a sin that will destroy their lives. If a christian who claims to be a homosexual will not respond to the pleas to change, and to the Bible’s admonitions, then church discipline should be enacted, as with any major sin. Homsexuality is a sexual sin and therefore can be considered as immoral for such practices are opposed to Almighty God’s will and should be not acceptable just because society has deemed it to be.

    The christian churches have all but disappeared from the lives of the British people. The chapels of Wales are either gaunt ruins, private houses or converted to businesses; the great Roman Catholic churches of the industrial North West are often empty and derelict, while the Anglicans scuttle about in their hallowed, lovely buildings like mice amid ancient ruins, rarely even beginning to fill spaces designed for multitudes.

    The choirs and the bells gradually fall silent, the hymns are no longer sung and one by one the doors are locked and places which in some cases have seen worship for centuries become bare museums of a dead faith.
    But those who say that they are alive in Christ should be aware of the surroundings they live in especially neighbourhoods and their nation, for ignorance and complacency are becoming part and parcel of family life where anything now goes in the sight of Almighty God.
    One aspect taking hold is division both in the christian church and amongst christians over the religion of Islam which has found to be not as peaceful as muslims and their clerics proclaim. The emerging church and its leadership appear, under the umbrella of ecumenicalism, to be wooing the muslim brotherhood. For muslims are taking the lead in society while most christians remain behind closed doors whether it be a church building or their homes used as castles with the draw bridges up. However, to bring both muslims and christians together this idea is being flouted with respectfully attending the ritual prayer of the other and asking God to receive the prayer of the other. During meetings between the two faiths, is has been considered there can be a place for common prayers (using formulas or spontaneous invocations). What folk fail to take heed is the result what radical militant Islam will do?

    This German’s View on Islam is well worth reading. For is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

    A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

    ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’

    We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

    The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

    The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China ‘s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

    The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?

    History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

    Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

    Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord’s Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

    In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

    In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

    As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts — the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

    Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious should ask themselves does this concern me. I would say that it does and to play ignorance is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand as what has been shared. However, when folk start grumbling afterwards that no one told them, it becomes too late to do anything about it.

    And we are silent …

    I encourage believers to read
    this Thought for Today
    written by Pastor Keith Brown

    “Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in the fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again; and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection: and others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword; they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented (of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” Hebrews 11: 33-40

    Rather a long text for today, but I didn’t feel at liberty to leave any of this out. It’s the ending of that great chapter of faith, Hebrews 11. It tells us of great victories experienced by those who dared to believe God. Immunity from the heat of the flames in the fiery furnace, lions who mouths were supernaturally shut in the lions den and great victories won in battle against all odds. All because these Old Testament saints dared to take God at His word.

    It also tells of those who equally dared to believe God and trust Him to the very limits, but they were mocked and scourged, imprisoned and stoned and even sawn in two. They were destitute and tormented and lived in caves and NEVER RECEIVED THE PROMISE. They believed God, but never had earthly benefits from their faith. Both groups died, believing for far better things, even beyond this life.

    What a different story we hear from many pulpits today. The call to “Come to Jesus and everything will be just fine” rings out around the world today in this great final apostasy of Christendom. Then when all the ‘prophetic words’ of great times to be had, FAIL, folk are told they simply didn’t have enough faith.

    READ YOUR BIBLE! Believe what God says…..

    “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” 2 Timothy 3:12

    “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” Romans 8:18

    God didn’t promise that we would have lives of ease when we trust Jesus. Even the great Apostle Paul was told the “My grace is sufficient thee” when he asked three times for his thorn in the flesh to be removed. (2 Cor. 12:9)

    We can ask God, even plead with him through tears for deliverance from certain situations in life, but we have NO RIGHT TO DEMAND. It may be that God will hear our prayer and answer as we would like Him to, but if He doesn’t, we must just rest in Him and trust Him. For whatever happens, this is always true for every true believer…….

    “And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose” Romans 8:28

    Many of the Old Testament saints mentioned in Hebrews 11, died in faith, but never obtained the promise during their earthly life.

    “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” Hebrews 11:13

    “But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city” Hebrews 11:16

    Whatever troubles you are going through right now, dare to believe God! Seek Him, plead your cause before Him. He may well deliver you, BUT IF NOT, be faithful, for there are blessings eternal laid up in heaven for every real believer!

    “…our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning, fiery furnace, and He will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. BUT IF NOT, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up” Daniel 3: 17-18

    Must I be carried to the skies,
    On flowery beds of ease,
    Whilst others fought to win the prize,
    And sail through stormy seas.

    In the Name, the blessed Name,
    Of Him who died for me;
    By faith I’ll win the promised crown,
    What’re my lot may be.

    May the love of Jesus bless each and everyone of you.

    John, as ever reporting.

  309. Dear chas351

    May i kindly point out some scripture to you –

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The word “taste” in Heb 2:9 is the same Greek word in Heb 6:4 & 5 “tasted”

    A primary verb; to taste; by implication to eat; figuratively to experience (good or ill): – eat, taste.

    I believe this to be a case, where scripture proves scripture.

    The Hebrews were certainly born again but their problem was that they were trying to go back to the “law”

    Below in an excellent audio/teaching on Heb 6:1-8 which is about 49 mins long and well worth taking the time to listen to.

    Every blessing

  310. I should have said “scrool down to teaching # 13” on that site.

  311. scroll*

  312. GaryB 🙂