In 1997/98, well-known Christian musician Steve Camp wrote the following hard-hitting commentary on the modern Christian music industry. Do his words still apply today? We would love to hear your comments, my friends…

by Steve Camp

Out of love and zeal for Biblical truth and the desire
to bring it to light, I come to you, brethren,
burdened and broken over the current state of
Christian music. I come not out of a heart of
condemnation, but out of convictions immersed in tears
one in desperate need daily of our Lord’s grace to be
conformed to His image. I come being aware of the
depravity from which I have been saved and that my
heart, apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
is desperately wicked and eternally sick. Early in my
own musical journey I wrote songs that neither
represented good music or precise theology. My motives
were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips
were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position
made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused. But
the Lord, out of His infinite grace and otherworldly
love, broke me with His chastening hand to bring true
repentance in my own life-and it’s that life of
repentance which is my greatest desire and my greatest
failing. It is out of the crucible of those
experiences that I am driven to speak with conviction
to these issues.

This document is a call to Reformation-a clarion call
to recover Biblical Christianity in the arts. Music is
a powerful tool from the Lord Jesus to His church
intended for worship, praise, encouragement,
edification evangelism, teaching, admonishing, and
exhorting God’s people to holiness-with always our
chief aim to glorify God and worship Him forever.” But
beloved, the serpentine foe of compromise has invaded
the camp through years of specious living, skewed
doctrine and most recently secular ownership of
Christian music ministries. While I assert this, I
recognize that there are godly men and women who love
the Lord, that work for these companies and record for
these companies, but that’s not the issue here. The
crux of the matter is that the overall nature of our
industry has dramatically shifted. The Apostle Paul
warns “it takes only a little leaven to leaven the
whole lump.” (1 Corinthians 5:6) When sin is tolerated
ultimately permeates and corrupts the entire church.
What is pure today will inevitably be polluted
tomorrow if we do not “purge out the old leaven. . . ”
(Ibid. 5:7) In the past several years, there has been
a not-so-subtle drifting away from Christocentric
music to an anthropocentric music. Sadly, this has
resulted in various visible manifestations of
spiritual sedition-where currently, the CCMI finds
itself on a slippery slope sliding away at accelerated
speeds from the Savior, the Scriptures and the church.

Contemporary Christian Music originally began
unashamedly declaring Jesus Christ as Lord. Within a
few years His name was replaced by several generic
titles filtering out the name of God ultimately to the
non-specific cognomen, “Love.” This led to a multitude
of pseudonyms: “The Man Upstairs”; “My Higher Power”;
“Our Family Values Expert” ad nauseam…ad infinitum.
This Biblical illiteracy I’ve coined as theological
ebonics-Biblical language diminished to cultural
unintelligible chatter affirmed as profound,
acceptable spiritual truth. Os Guinness is “spot on”
when saying, “[we have seen a change] from an emphasis
on ‘serving God’, to an emphasis on ‘serving the self’
in serving God.” The object of faith is no longer
Christ, but our self-esteem; the goal of faith is no
longer holiness, but our happiness; and the source of
faith is no longer the Scriptures, but our experience.
Christian music currently reflects this. We are
producing a generation of people that “feel” their
God, but do not know their God.

We have been given a solemn and sacred duty to
communicate through music the fathomless riches of
God’s eternal Word. The Word of God is the most holy
thing we will ever hold in our hands in this lifetime.
As Dr. John MacArthur says, “This book contains: the
mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation,
the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.
Read it to be wise, believe it to be saved and
practice it to be holy….”

Lamentably, the music of heaven has been sold to the
world-to the ones who had the deepest pockets and made
the sweetest promises. In a very real sense, “Simon
the Sorcerer” has succeeded in purchasing the work of
God from the “apostles” of our industry. (Acts 8:
14-25) What has been the result of this partnering
with the world? Gospel music today has become music
for the moment, but not for eternity. Transitory,
temporal, trivial messages that devalue Deity and
raise “felt need” affairs above eternal “real need”
concerns produce disposable, consumer driven,
cotton-candy music. This is playing marbles with

We are unequally yoked with an unbelieving world, sin
goes undisciplined, is even tolerated for some artists
because of their visibility and sales power and the
truth and authority of Scripture is ail but abrogated.
Biblical illiteracy is pandemic. Accountability to the
local church has all but been abandoned. Moral
pluralism and erroneous forms of ecumenism are the
dyslexic doctrines of today. A politically correct,
reductionist gospel that appeals only to the flesh and
a syncretistic methodology in communication through
the arts have sought to replace the true “Gospel
According To Jesus” evidenced in the fruit of an
obedient life fully surrendered to the Holy Spirit and
His truth.

Could it be that the love of money is at the root of
it all? Or could it be that ignorance has revealed the
unschooled in matters of faith and doctrine?
Unquestionably both. For many, money has been and
continues to be the prerequisite for “ministry” and
Biblical truth is no longer vital but vicarious!

Departure from the Word of God is now clearly
evidenced in our music, lyrics, business practices and
Alliances. Beloved, if we do not repent of our sins,
God’s judgment will surely be upon us.

When Martin Luther stood at Wittenberg’s Door he called for
reformation from the recalcitrant Roman Church. Now it is our
turn, almost five centuries later, to sound the alarm in our
generation. This time, to call the Christian Music Industry to
reformation back to the supremacy, sufficiency and Lordship
of Jesus Christ. Genuine revival – a fresh return to obedience
in Christ is surely needed today, but that would be almost
impossible given the current environment of our industry.

Why? True revival is marked by repentance; true repentance brings
restitution; true restitution demands that Christian music be
owned and operated only by believers whose aim is the glory of
God consistent with Biblical truth. This means that the current
CCMI labels must return all the money they have received to their
respective secular counterparts that purchased them and divorce
alliances with them. The CCMI has gone too far down the wide road
of worldliness and there is not the tenacity of character and the
Biblical courage of heart and mind to do the right thing no
matter what the cost.

These are serious times, brethren, that call for real answers.
This is not a time for duplicitous people, proclaiming a diluted
message, from disingenuous ministries. It is a time for those
whose lives are tempered with the steel of righteousness, girded
with the belt of truth, standing firm in the gospel of peace,
raising high their shield of faith, guarded with the helmet of
salvation, to wield the sword of the Spirit with a surgeon’s
exactitude, praying always with all prayer and supplication, with
all perseverance for all the saints in the Spirit. (Ephesians

Will we champion again the manifesto of the Reformers: Sola Fide
(by faith alone); Sola Gratia (by grace alone); Sola Scriptura
(on the Word alone); Solus Christus (because of Christ alone);
and Soli Deo Gloria (to the glory of God alone)? Do we have the
conviction of heart and courage of mind to do what’s just? Do
we have the boldness to shout above the roar of the marketplace
that the Emperor has no clothes? Will we leave our careers, our
contracts, our carefully cultivated plans and press releases, our
unequally yoked record companies to serve the Lord again with all
our heart, soul, mind and strength? There is no gray in
this – it’s a matter of obedience.

Oh brethren, “we have a name to be alive, but we are dead.”
(Revelation 3:1) There is no greater love song to proclaim than
the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord at Calvary,
but yet others feel content to sing about the chaff of this
world. What the New Testament church wrestled with the least is
what our industry craves the most money. How dare we think we
can play politics with God, with His truth and with His church.
We can’t negotiate with sin no matter what kind of capital is at
stake-and that really is the issue here.

Let us “press on, that [we] may lay hold of that for which Christ
Jesus has also laid hold of [us]. (Philippians 3:12) Let us
“lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us
and let us run with endurance the rave that is set before us.”
(Hebrew 12:1) Let us fall on our faces before our Holy Lord,
repent of our sin and return to our First Love. With lives
bathed in His grace, let us provoke one another to love and good
works. With undivided hearts may we leave the prodigal’s pigpen
and come back to the Father’s house. Let us commit to prayer
and fasting seeking the Lord’s will with a broken, contrite and
obedient heart. Let us return to our churches and to the
faithful pastors/elders that shepherd us – submitting ourselves
to their godly leadership. May we be students of His Word
filled daily with His Spirit.

Pray on this. Pounding on “Wittenberg’s Door”, let us come
together to make history to make Contemporary Christian
Music…Christian again.

-Please comment on this article below-

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 17th, 2012 at 9:00 pm.


134 Replies

  1. Andrew Oct 17th 2012

    Comments are working now! Sorry that they weren’t earlier.


  2. I like the article, but I think the problem is a lot wider than just Christian music. I do find a lot of the wishy washy songs in contemporary worship pretty lame, but it’s a fruit, rather than the root of the issue.
    If you go into a Christian book shop you’ll find the same problem. Not many books with real biblical depth, but a lot that are borderline new age, humanistic and self improvement based.
    I do fear that we have been ‘sold down the river’ by our marketing and publishing houses that claim to have a vision to serve and build up the Church. There seems to be very little discernment or depth in the Christian marketplace and an awful lot of hype. It is frustrating watching some of the inane tripe that races to the top of the charts, but there are great musicians, writers and movie makers out there.

    Having said all that I’m greatly encouraged personally that many are hungry for the truth and do gladly receive the meat of the word. All we can do is demonstrate something different from the status quo [mess] by the works that we produce.

  3. I’m not much into temporary Christian music, but Dennis Jernigan is someone whose music ministry I love and appreciate. So much love, compassion, humility and healing, a wonderful testimony of God’s power of redemption! Good to see people like him still exist…

  4. I mentioned this to a friend and was sent the article in its entirety….

  5. Most things shared that were prophetic about 20-30 years ago are more relevant today because we are about to see the full fruit of what we have been sowing for many years. Keith Green was a prophetic voice to the CCM movement and sadly it has gone so far now there is in my mind no repenting to really ensure the entire movement and strain of music can start to build the kingdom of God.

    The worldliness of the church is at a all time high, we are called to be separate.

  6. DeWayne Oct 17th 2012

    To this old timer, it seems more like a mantra of a few words, sung over and over, faster and faster, until everyone has hyperventilated into the … spirit.

  7. Andrew Oct 17th 2012

    Sometimes I wonder if the death of Keith Green was a downward turning point for the whole youth movement.


  8. Andrew Oct 17th 2012

    -Maybe even the entire Charismatic movement.

  9. Greg t Oct 17th 2012

    I noticed in the 80’s the change from “You” and “Thou” to “I”, “I”, “I” and “We”, “We”, “We”. I just won’t sing them now. Unless the song is directed toward the LORD, I am not interested. But I can’t say anything because people worship the songs. I especially love the much older hyms of the 1700s and 1800s. And I come from the heavy metal generation of the 80s! (Repented of course)

  10. Martin Oct 17th 2012

    Well, at last! Someone has dared to publish this matter to a much wider audience. Andrew, thank you.

    I’ve been banging on about this matter for nigh on thirty years, mostly to ears stopped up with this Godless trash. Talk about a voice in the wilderness!!

    This music is soulish, not spiritual. It is written to appeal to the carnal man, to induce a euphoria into which all manner of unBiblical doctrines and understandings may be injected, thus becoming a bedrock for the present corruption of Christianity world wide. It’s a tool of the devil who’s giving out another Christianity, Christless, sinless and entirely soul centred.

    Beware, there’s no repentance there, and no salvation, although so many believe they are saved, and are worshipping God. These lyrics are a lie!

    I cannot recall ever witnessing euphoria or mesmeric arm waving when Charles Wesley’s Love Divine All Loves Excelling is sung, or Isaac Watt’s When I Survey … but I have witnessed peace spread across faces.

    Let’s remember, in days not so long ago, when so many were illiterate, hearing the Word read, hearing it preached soundly, were the only means of ingesting these wonderful truths. Singing them anchored them in the heart.

    I concur with Greg Gordon, it’s gone too far now. Time for the clarion call, Come out from among them …

  11. Greg t Oct 17th 2012

    Ps Don Francisco is my favourite songmeister!!!!

  12. Andrew Oct 17th 2012

    “Scripture Songs” truly need to make a comeback.

    Don’t you think?


  13. Mark E Oct 17th 2012

    If it’s the Christian music INDUSTRY, you can expect it will be run for profit and all decisions will pivot around that goal.

    If it’s really a Christian MINISTRY, ordained by God, I would expect that the people involved would seek to please God, not just first, but Him only. Obedience will release provision.

    If Jesus appears to be popular, is it really the scriptural Jesus? Or is it the Jesus that we have made in our own image and likeness?

    New Testament church? I’m not convinced there is one in the Western world.

    ‘gaz’ is right. The problem is much deeper and wider than just music. If the real gospel were preached, real Christians would be born by God’s spirit and the fear of God would keep us all from such as we’re witnessing.

    Go bro Steve Camp! Keith Green is standing up, cheering! And so am I!

  14. I believe Keith Green once said that the only music ministers God can use are the ones where music is least important to them. I wonder if that holds true for artists today.

  15. Cheryl Oct 17th 2012

    Much of what passes as “Contemporary Christian Music” today is very generic. It mostly sounds like worldly songs I heard years ago with a few scriptures thrown in.

    I don’t want to say that all CCM is like that. The reason that I bought Keith Green’s albums (for less than retail while he was alive) is because I knew where he stood. He challenged me in my walk with the Lord. He wasn’t afraid to speak the truth and perhaps alienate Christians.

    Keith Green’s music wasn’t just a challenge to others, it was true worship of the Lord Jesus.

  16. Averyl Oct 17th 2012

    Andrew, – scripture in song is soooo good!

    What about the volume in some churches? Enough to damage baby’s eardrums!

    I’ll never forget sharing a half-way house, many years ago, with a young mum who wasn’t “into God”. We were discussing this issue. She said that Christian music should not be like that of the world, that it should have a different dimension completely.
    So there you go, even an unsaved person recognised this.
    They often have gems of wisdom if we listen to them!

  17. Margaret Newcombe Oct 17th 2012

    I simply get told that I am too old,
    by leaders of churches for youth;
    so I wont go,
    and this I know
    voices that sold me,
    they even told me
    You am too proud, we are not loud ;
    in ‘churches’ that compromise Truth.

    So leave us now
    just outside the door
    with Jesus the Christ
    weeping and knocking ,
    “come buy from Me gold …”
    We will not be sold……….

  18. Margaret Newcombe Oct 17th 2012

    “You ARE too proud…….

  19. Mark Andrew Oct 17th 2012

    The subject of this article really ranges far beyond music, and the issue of music itself is a very broad subject. What I find problematic is that “worship” and “music” are today regarded as synonyms. Much of Christian music today is really just entertainment for Christians, so people can commonly ask each other, “Did you enjoy the worship?” Even if Christian music does truly worship God, I am sure the original meaning of the word “worship” is intended to convey much more than just music,

  20. Margaret Newcombe Oct 17th 2012

    “You ARE too proud….

  21. Sam Zook Oct 17th 2012

    I agree the CCM movement is going way to far!!
    but we can’t put them all in one barrel! There are
    so called “Christian” rock, rap, n hip hop bands
    out there that I would not call godly people..
    but just because its called CCM does not say its bad! Check out Steve Camps newer music, his
    music is harder then I like to listen to!! just sayin… God bless!

  22. A brief testimony.
    “We walked into a Hospice shop here in our local town and I was browsing through some CD’s for sale. I picked up one featuring a ‘well known’ band and started to read the song titles. The first was “Let’s get this party started” and further down was “Cannibalism”. In all fairness I have never heard the lyrics but would you even want to consider playing it?”
    Be it ‘teaching’ or ‘worship’ there will always be ‘imperfections’, purposed or not, so be led by His Spirit with wisdom, knowlege, discernment and understanding.

  23. Bill Harper Oct 17th 2012

    I came across something that was very interesting to me, a few years ago while studying the book of Numbers. In the 22nd and 23rd chapter of the book, Balak tried to get Baalam to curse the children of Israel. From the way the story is told Balak was hard headed and didn’t want to accept the answer that Baalam kept giving him. God would not allow him to put a curse on the Israelites because they were His chosen people. He was going to bless them and give them the land that they were going through. I believe most of the people who will read this are already familiar with the story of God using the ass to speak to Baalam, and probably the rest of the story, also. At the end of the 24th chapter Balaam and Balak go their own ways, but there seems to be something that transpired between them that we are not specifically told about in this account, but is mentioned in other parts of the Bible. Baalam could not curse the people of Israel, but he could tell Balak how he could get them to bring God’s curse on themselves, and that appears to be what happened, from other verses throughout the rest of the Bible.

    The Moabites joined with the Midianites and used their women to sexually seduce the men of Israel. They also got them to come to their Idolatrous feasts and take part in them. For the purpose of this lesson let’s look at the first nine verses of chapter 25 of the book of Numbers.

    1. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
    2. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
    3. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
    4. And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
    5. And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
    6. And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    7. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
    8. And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
    9. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

    Baalam seemed to be unique in that he was not an Israelite, but yet knew how to get an answer from the one true God. Although he heard from God, on more than one occasion in this story, like King Saul he seemed to want to please men more than the true God. God had already decreed the death of those who had joined themselves to the heathen God, when an Israelite man brought a Midianitish woman into his tent to have sex with her. The Israelites were already mingling with the ungodly and committing spiritual and carnal idolatry, and God had sent a plague among the Hebrews, when this man openly and unashamedly brought the woman to his tent. His name was Zimri and her name was Cozbi.

    Now this is the thing I found quite interesting: Zimri means musical (Strong’s #2167). Cozbi means false, to lie or deceive (Strong’s #3576). Both of their fathers were big shots among their own people.

    I have watched the change in the music in this country since I was a boy, and also the way that music has often changed in our worship services. I know that I am an old fogy, and haven’t adapted to this changing world the last couple of decades like a lot of younger people have. I also know that many Christians cite the music of the Salvation Army, which took worldly songs and put Christian words to them. They tell us that we should adapt to the newer music and be able to worship with it. Maybe they are right to some extent, but I have some problems with much of it.

    For one thing, I remember the old movies, which Holiness preachers told us weren’t fit for Christians to see sixty years ago, that by today’s standards are considered good wholesome Christian entertainment. The Westerns, for one thing, had music with guitars and fiddles, before the new amplification became so popular, that was pleasant to listen to. Now everything seems to be so loud that I can’t even stand to be in a closed building with a lot of it. And some Christian music has followed the lead.

    Another thing I have noticed, which I personally have a problem with, is the jungle tom tom beat that seems to be so prevalent in much of today’s music. Much of this sounds to me like a hypnotic voodoo beat, used in demonic ritualism.

    As we have become programmed to accept everything that was once called wrong, I believe we have also become programmed to accept a demonic beat, and deafeningly loud noise in what is supposed to be music today. I believe we have been programmed to accept it in many of our worship services as well as in the world. . I believe that we have been programmed to accept filthy rap music, outside of our worship services, to a large extent.

    Please notice that I am not putting down all modern music, but things that are centered around ear-damaging volume, and a hypnotic beat in particular. I have reached the place over the last decade or two, where I listen to very little music, other than what I consider good Christian music. I know that when I go into stores to shop, restaurants to eat, and other business places, it seems that people have something against good old fashioned quietness anymore. When I make a phone call and am put on hold, I often have to listen to something I don’t want to hear. I know what blesses me and what irritates me. I find these cars going by my house with the boom, boom, boom, drum beat irritating. I find rap music that uses filthy language irritating. I question some Christian music which the words do little to glorify my God and my Savior, do nothing to convict or edify, and seem to just be “religious”.
    When I worked for the Arizona Department of Corrections I used to recite Christian poetry to the inmates from time to time. Occasionally I heard one of them say that I “could rap pretty good”. Possibly there is a place for some of this stuff in real Christian worship, but we should be able to discern what is really edifying, convicting, or doing the work of God in some other way, and what is just ungodly noise.

    In my own mind Zimri (musical) and Cozbi (deceitfulness) has joined in an ungodly union in our society, to add to the ungodly atmosphere we live in. We need to take Phinehas’ javelin (in our own mind) and put a stop to it.

    Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Philippians 4:8

  24. If you think challenging believers about their pet ‘signs and wonders’ was “fun”………..
    Wait till you see the anger it sparks, when you try to take away their beloved “Christian” music!

  25. As GAZ said above the problem is more widespread that just music and I would encourage responders to stick to the issue of music, since that is what the article is about.

    Having been saved at a young age in the early 1960’s and growing up with GOOD Christian music (both technically and lyrically), coming from a classically trained background, and being involved in music ministry since the early 1970’s, I have seen the progression of Christian music.

    I concur with much of what Steve Camp has written. The entire document and 107 theses he wrote can be found at:

    I have wept over the direction of Christian music in the last 20 years and it continues to get worse instead of better. God has directed me to look at it from various perspectives in those years and most particularly in the last five years. Here are a things which were not mentioned in Steve’s writings:

    (1) In much of the western Church, for the most part, the hymnal has been thrown out. While I agree that some hymns should not be in any hymnal, many have glorified God. They have often been used by Him to aid, guide, encourage, strengthen, challenge, direct, teach, and otherwise minister to His children – and THESE HYMNS HAVE DONE THIS FOR CENTURIES!!!
    I have asked several “ministers” of music what right they had to throw out this grace of God when such had been used of God so mightily. Sadly, they could not give me an answer.
    Further, I believe that those hymns which have supported saints for centuries were authored by the Holy Spirit (perhaps not in the same as the Bible, but authored by Him nonetheless). What right should any of us have to neglect or reject that which has been born of His Spirit?

    (2) As Steve stated, music is NOT AMORAL. Music is a force more powerful than speech. It has been scientifically and medically shown that music resides in a different area of the brain than speech.

    Music is not merely musical notes and lyrics. It’s design also carries with it what in music is called “MOOD.”
    People’s feelings, moods, thoughts, and actions can be STRONGLY influenced by music and its MOOD. Much of contemporary (so-called) Christian music often presents predominant moods of sensuality, despondency, conflict, and hopelessness, amongst others. \Godly music should reflect the character and nature of God – not the worst of sinful man.

    (3) Musical ignorance and illiteracy is also predominant in much of so-called contemporary Christian music. It appears that many contemporary so-called christian “artists” seem to have little variety – usually based on their musical illiteracy. This often comes from the fact that many of them think that since a friend taught them to strum a guitar or pound a beat on a set of drums, this now makes them musicians and qualifies them to not only perform the music of others, but write their own. The usual result of this is limited style and ability which results in boring, repetitive, musical gobbledegook.

    Our God is a God of infinite variety as well as intelligence. He is also a God whose Word directs us to be EXCELLENT in all we do. We are also warned in God’s Word not to put a “novice” into a position of leadership. Musicians in the Church of Jesus Christ should not be allowed into a musical leadership position until they are mature enough and sufficiently discipled in Christ and in their musical ability to do so excellently.

    Additionally, this illiteracy often results in lyrics which are in conflict with the style and mood of the music – not to mention the fact that many of them are Scripturally unsound to begin with. The music of God’s people should have music and lyrics which harmonize, augment, and enhance each other.

    (4) Having led literally 1000’s of worship services and having observed numerous other worship leaders, I have come to the conclusion that any who “minister” in music CANNOT successfully do so unless they are worshippers in their private lives. I once challenged a “minister” of music to have NO INSTRUMENTS in a “worship service” claiming that any true worship can be done without music. Predictably, he declined.

    (5) Most of contemporary so-called “christian music” completely neglects much of the basic issues of life found in previous Christian music such as prayer, evangelism, missions, (true) holiness, heaven, death, consecration, etc., etc. When one’s “Christian” music is limited to merely contemporary music, it is unbalanced and warped.

    In her late 40’s and early 50’s, my mother-in-law went to Bible College and earned her Bachelor of Theology and Bachelor of Christian Education. When she first started her theological training she found she already knew all the theology she was being taught. For quite some time she wondered how she knew it because she couldn’t remember being taught it in church. One day in chapel it hit her – she learned her Biblical doctrine from the hymns she’d been singing for decades.

    God revealed this aspect and power of music to powerfully teach believers to John and Charles Wesley, which is why they wrote hymns more prolifically than any other known Christian musicians.

    How desperately the music in Christendom needs a true reformation. May God’s Spirit hasten it within His people.

    God bless,

  26. Thank you Steve for echoing the heart of Father to a generation. I honor you in your quest for Holiness in an industry that needs a Prophetic Voice. Correction comes at a price but reward for truth is eternal.

  27. Nellie Oct 18th 2012

    Just to place my two cents in the kettle, I have been drawn farther and farther away from CCM. I believe there are few who are passionate for the LORD through their music but many attempt to point to God through them instead of directly. Rich Mullins was an artist who wanted his music to show God and His love. Rich’s passion flowed through his music and I wish he was still here today.
    David Wilkerson did a sermon and mentioned many of the Christian rock bands are only in the service to get money and exposure until that secular contract came. A group formerly known as “Earthsuit” (now known as “Meth Math”) now plays secular audiences.
    Sadly, many churches have allowed so much compromise from the secular that congregations no longer tell the difference. The acceptance of mixing secular into the Christian music is unnoticed by the youth today. Why? The authority doesn’t care, as long as it’s entertainment and they keep coming, and the money keeps flowing. God will move when He is revered.

  28. Christian music has historically always been counter-cultural. Today much of it is a blending-in with worldly melodies. Certain music such as some bawdy tavern music can lead on to immoral practices. I Peter 4:3. This does not of course mean that all worldly music is sinful, but there are dangers. Regarding music, as in all Christian subjects, we must not go beyond what is written. 2 John 9-10; 1 Corinthians 4:6; Matthew 15:1-14; Luke 6:46. Notice what is said in the word of God about Christian singing and praise:

    Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:17-21

    Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Colossians 3:16-17

    Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. Hebrews 13:15



    for those here who mentioned scripture put to music, I believe you will truly enjoy this couple who worships Abba with a pure heart…

    its all free….

  30. For the last many years I had the same conclusion as Steve Camp, therefore didn’t buy Christian CD’s anymore while my heart was longing intensely for pure, holy and truthful music that only brings glory to God our Father, His Son and His Spirit.
    With all my might I’m also pounding on Wittenberg’s and Heaven’s doors for the positive fruit of the outcome of this letter! Back to our Father’s House for zeal for His house consumes me! Hallelujah!

  31. Tenney Oct 18th 2012

    Ezekiel 28:12…full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Satan knows music, and has distorted it for his own purposes. As someone wrote above, most of today’s “worship” music is soulish and carnal. It is no longer about true worship of the Most High God, but excitement, good feelings, pride.

    Scripture tells us to sing, praise, dance, play instruments, in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. That is the standard for our music alone and together.

  32. ValleyAnt Oct 18th 2012

    I will respond to this when I have time (hopefully before the thread closes). I did want to respond because of Steve Camp. My older brother, from whom I’ve been estranged for several years now (but hopefully, the Lord will bring us back together in Him) loves Steve Camp. I was just remembering my older brother in prayer today and then saw this article. I long and look forward to reconnecting with him. He and I and my other siblings sing, but he is especially Graced with anointing on his music. May God bless and restore him and favor him mightily! Amen. I like Steve Camp too, but my brother comes first of course 🙂 Replies about Steve Camp coming soon, hopefully. God bless all.

  33. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater as the old saying goes. I suppose I have a different opinion than many here. (position: I am a 53 year old conservative spirit-filled pastor who normally agrees with about everything you print) I actually think the contemporary Christian music has gotten significantly better in the last year. A few years ago I couldn’t stand to listen to a Christian station because the music was shallow and without anointing (Our Father’s Hosue is a Big Big House, made me want to puke more than once.). In the past year I have been pleasantly suprised that much more contemporary music and worship music has moved away from the “bless me” shallow stuff to embrace life’s difficult and remain faithful to God. It tells me that there is a grassroots trend in the younger generation that embraces God in the midst of life, not just as an excape form reality. We need to be careful not to squelch this trend.

  34. How about hearing a song that puts he fear of God into you, instead of lulling us to sleep?

  35. After reading the article today and the comments made, I feel compelled to write about something not mentioned yet. I am the worship leader of a small(!) elderly group, and am very selective of the new songs of today, preferring only songs that worship God.
    It has been my observation of both Christian (rock) music and that of the secular realm, and sometime see little difference other than the words. I see Christian activity and dancing in events that differ very little from that in bars and clubs with ‘mosh pit’ type dancing in both places. Where has the reverence of true worship gone? Methinks out the window, with the worldliness of the modern age creeping in instead. In some places the worship in services has become nothing more that a glorified rock concert instead of true worship in the Spirit.
    May the true spirit of worship invade our churches to the Glory of God alone.

  36. Andrew Oct 18th 2012

    I agree, Carol. Well said.

    It is not the “style” of the music really at all.

    It is whether it is truly ‘God-centered’ and has His presence and truth about it. -Whether it truly glorifies Him.

    That is what I look for. I don’t mind the “Style” or modern sound if those other things are there.

    That is the issue.

    Bless you!


  37. This seeker friendly, user friendly, Christ compromising, cross denying imatation gospel is creating lots of tares…. Thank God many are waking up. Out of judgment we are beginning to see a move. In my travels many are coming to Christ. Soon I willbe back in the Islamic world and could use your prayers. God is not looking for performance but habitation a vessel to life HIS life through….

  38. Love the article I want to be a apart of this!
    Lord teach me how to be what this article calls for
    As I constantly fall short!!
    Please if you have time to listen to my music at the above link
    I would pray you be blessed by it!
    It’s different but it’s there
    THIS IS A NON PROFIT PROJECT and I plan to keep it that way!!!
    God bless you and keep you

  39. V. Scher Oct 18th 2012

    When one adds to or takes away from the True Word,
    whether it is in music, sermons, bible studies, or false teachings, they bring a curse upon themselves. This is repeated three times in the Bible. Please read Rev 22:18 and Deut 4:2 and Prov 3:6.

    So many lack the knowledge of the Truth. Eph 4:4-6 There is only One Messiah, One Elohim, One Faith, One Baptism One Body, One Spirit, One Hope and One Father of all to which you are called. These are the True Guidelines one should keep themselves in to be pleasing to Our Father and not mislead others.

  40. BRAVO! Your blog about Christian music was a timely reminder about the music we listen to. There are barely known arists out there who are clearly being led by the spirit. My wife and daughter bring these to me all the time when they discover them on blogs that post and let you play them. Its like getting a fresh filling by the spirit, a beautful gift from God versus what is played on most chrisian stations.
    May the Lord continue to bless your service to Him.

  41. Music I think will be a huge key for the gathering of people to worship during the unveiling of the NWO- Some research I was checking on a few years ago led me to the conclusion that the CCM music industry was owned by many of those who hate the light- many artists have even been blinded and do not see the snares at their feet… I have to pray for discernment all the time because the days are getting darker and I cannot rely on my own understanding- things are very subtle and pray!!
    Daniel 3> concerning music being used as a cue for people to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar the King-I think this may also be a prophetic reminder for the future antichrist who will also have an image..
    Dan 3:4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
    5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
    6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace…

    People first must be prepared and trained to accept such things which is why the music has changed slowly over the generations so as not to be as noticeable- a quiet erosion..but those who have ears to hear have heard and see the difference..
    I pray many will wake up and realize things are not at all as they appear-just because it sounds good does not mean it is from a ‘tree’ planted by the Lord.
    some stuff on this site is interesting- Bless!!!

  42. I totally agree with Steve Camp. I have watched the decline of worship music and overall “Christian” music for a long time. We have left our “first love” behind and followed a false love. Most Christians today don’t know HOW to worship, instead they have Hype to whip them into a frenzy!!!

  43. Thanks for the article. I agree and don’t agree. Firstly, I don’t like the term ‘christian music’ I think its shallow and doesn’t say much. There is good music and there is bad music. I believe the vast majority of Christian artist are not called to be professional musicians. What they produce is largely manufactured pulp. Good theology in your lyrics does not automatically make you a good musician. Secondly, there is music that is created to be played as essentially worship music, and then there is music for personal reflection and meditation. The problem seems to be when the latter pretends to be the former, i.e when Christians write music for communal worship and it contains very little substance. My husband is a songwriter and he writes music that hopefully points people to God. It doesn’t contain much theology and he doesn’t call it ‘christian music’ or expect it to be sung in a church. He has on many occasions taken it to the local pub and played it there. In this context you wouldn’t dare come in with ‘christian music’. However, the words of truth in his songs have at times penetrated the listening heart. He hasn’t attempted to break into the Christian music scene, nor is he interested.

  44. jackrabbit Oct 18th 2012

    It is because the ministries of christian musicians is not holy.

  45. I have been thinking about this very issue lately, longing for some music that really contains “the touch of God” in it. When I was first saved there was a girl who would get songs from the Lord, (this was the early seventies). The songs were incredible, timely messages from Him….I listen to a fair bit of worship music and am fairly picky….really dislike the me centred stuff that is so prevalent today, but find it falls flat so often. There are a couple of groups that focus their music on the cross, some have put fresh music to some lovely hymns and those songs are great…..but I long for The Lord to bring out a new song in His people. There was a beautiful hymn called Here is Love Vast as the Ocean, called the love song of the Welsh revival…’s a beautiful hymn…..but that was then, and this is now….will there bea new song, to show what the Lord is doing in our hearts in this generation? The sevenities birthed a great deal of great stuff, but that was a LONG time ago now.

  46. Pauline Richmond Oct 18th 2012

    I have felt like crying over the state of christian music. Too much of the world in the church. Young people looking for God or acceptance are really deceived in thinking that this is worship. Many times one could say they were doing spiritual aerobics. I love them. God said come out an be separate not join in with the world. So much wonderful talent and gifts from GOD SOLD FOR MONEY AND FAME NOT SALVATION. I am 71yrs young and play music for my church. Church can be anywhere where two or more people are gathered together’ in His name’ Bring back scripture in song and the like and let us sift through what is offerred more carefully. Lukewarmness abounds I’m afraid and we really need to seek the Holy Spirit to bring us into His Presence .This does not always require music. Well done to all those who have voiced concern. Render unto Ceasar the things belonging to him amd to God the things that belong to God. Get back to basics and we need to preach the simple gospel to get them in not rock concerts. There are some really wonderful songs but as many have commented not really doing what they are meant to do. The church has to be different , lets can most of it, start again with just sitting in HIs presence awhile and waiting on Him. Love you all who are doing your best for God buty also very concerned for those who are believing a lie of Satan, who is presented as an angel of light. Songs from a heart that genuinely cares for humanity always have something special and music can do this, but let us have a bit of peace and quiet in our meeting places to wait on God.Time is short.

  47. Pastor Terry Grimes Oct 18th 2012

    What we see and hear concerning Christain music in todays church needs to be recognised that the church leadership are to be held accountable for the allowing the decline to come in the front door of their churches. It makes the people feel good. All to do with me, myself and I. Selfcentered. And that is the basic foundation of many who fill the pulpits today. Jesus called them hirelings who have no concern for the flock, but for themselves.

  48. Christina Oct 18th 2012

    A truer word has not been spoken in a long time. Thank you Steve for speaking the truth in Love.

  49. Pauline Richmond Oct 18th 2012

    P.S Andrew I meant to say what a great job you are doing. I love your articles and many times I come into agreement with my Spirit at the things you express concern over. Keep fighting for the Truth of God to be proclaimed, it is the answer but only in its purity. A merry heart doeth good like a medicine. The joy of the Lord is our strength, not happy, clappy, froth and bubble. I am a contented christian not wanting to put others down in anyway just want to share my heart which was filled with God’s Holy Spirit in August 1965. So come on church, lets get our act together and stand up for God. Thank you SHALOM

  50. It has been obvious to many of us that the Christian music scene became very ‘me’ focussed somewhere back in the 1990’s. But I reckon there has been a slow but steady change to more ‘God focussed’ Christian worship songs in recent years. I hear it on Radio Rhema, and definitely in the church we attend at present. So I am encouraged.

    I am also encouraged to see a shift in emphasis in the preaching of the Word, from a ‘what’s in it for me’ emphasis, to a ‘it’s all about God’, and particularly to the cry of God’s heart that his people would truly come to know him – in the fullest biblical sense of the word. It’s just a start, and there is a long way to go yet. But lets continue to pray that Jesus will truly build his Church so that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. If we pray – believing that He will do it – then He promises that He will answer those prayers. 1Jhn 5: 14,15

  51. Darren Sargent Oct 18th 2012

    Spirit speaks to spirit and worshippers of God must speak in spirit and truth. It is not enough to speak in ‘truth’ only. Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall. With our spirit we worship and the rest has to follow. A lot of music starts at the other end, it moves our body: the simple plip-plop of rain drops rather than the raging torrents of a deep well being cracked open. The earth was watered from below before ever a rain drop fell, with our music we seek to mimic the true wellspring of life, the rivers of life that flow from the south side of the temple from the mercy seat. Are we not the temple of God? Worship comes from us; the instrument to be played upon is the human heart and the object of our affections is the Lord Himself for His sake. The idea that I could ‘transact’ and get something from God is impertinence. Are we so concerned with singing nice or even beautiful songs that we recoil at something contemporary or rocky just on cultural grounds: its not what we grew up with! Are we so enrapured by the spirit of the age that we cannot conceive of anything that isn’t amped and produced: we need to speak to where people are at! I wonder what the late Art Katz would have said in his innimicable grumpy way? The christian music industry can and will go the way of the dodo and I won’t shed a tear. When we stand before God we will not be holding a guitar in our hand. The music of the worshipping heart needs no crutches and if we are to stand before Him then we must throw it all away. The world must have nothing in us if the message of the eternal gospel is to be seen with power. God will have worshippers on this mountain or the next and they will worship in spirit and truth and no one will teach them how. It therefore has nothing to do with style of worship but it has everything to do with the style of worship. It is the heart and the cry that it produces – who cares if it is not crafted for my neighbours ears, but if I am to sing with my neighbour then we must sing together, not listening to each to each other but looking at the Lord. To think that it has nothing to do with style is naive. You only get good fruit on a good tree. The style will reflect the heart. Rhythmic pounding drums are not just style, they are an assault upon the person. Worship must never be done for us or to us. To condescend to manipulation is the world’s device and it can ape a style very easily. We use style as a badge of attraction for an identity rather than the normal outflow of a unique personality worshipping God.

    What I love about Steve Camp’s diatribe here is it is not an article for your consideration. This guy wrote 107 statements, 107 theses, he was preparing an indictment against what is called christian music and what did he do with it? If there had been a wooden door against which to nail I am sure he would have done it. I think I am right in saying he stuck it to the outside windows of a christian music publishing house in Nashville (please correct me if I am wrong on this point). This is a prophetic challenge to which the ‘christian’ music industry has failed to respond. What is even more important is not whether the christian music industry needs to put its house in order, its whether God needs to nail something similar to our own hearts for the type of worship that emanates from our own hearts. We are the temple, let us worship with reverence and fear – not an ‘amplifier’.

    Love to you all.

  52. re-Waynes comment:”How desperately the music in Christendom needs a true reformation. May God’s Spirit hasten it within His people.”

    Amen. Our Lord works in hidden places. He is not rushed by our demands, Nor does he need our help. He only needs our obedience and our humility.

    Psalm 37:7-11
    7. Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him;
    do not fret when men succeed in their ways,
    when they carry out their wicked schemes.

    8 Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;
    do not fret—it leads only to evil.
    9 For evil men will be cut off,
    but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land.

    10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
    though you look for them, they will not be found.
    11 But the meek will inherit the land
    and enjoy great peace.

  53. All I can say is that we must cling to Jesus and His Word , now more than ever before. We can sense the end is now so near , as more and more carnal things of this world (yes , lot’s of “Christian” music included) threaten to take away our joy in the blink of an eye. In that respect , all the scriptures which warn us to “be awake” at all times , becomes more and more real to me each day. Whether it be through music , newspaper stories , television , internet or radio broadcast , the evil one will use all the means possible to deviate us from the one True God and what his word commands us to do. Many times we fail , I do throughout the day , but , just like the example Christ himself gave us on His walk to Cavalry , we must get up again and shrug off the pull of the world and keep walking down the “narrow road” .

  54. I am in compete agreement with this article, and I thankyou for being bold enought to speak this word, however I also want to mention how refreshing it was to read a heartfelt personal repentence fo ones own sinful reasons for ones carreer in music..It takes true love to humble onceself and confess, not only in the sight of Yahweh but in the sight of the ekklesia.. I now do as the words command and ask Abba that you would pour out upon steven camp the fullness of your Ruach Ha Kodesh fill his mouth with praises and let His worship of you be done in the beauty of Holiness and Heal any area in His life that would keep that from going forth in Power to lift up your son Yeshua, that all men might be drawn unto hIm..I ask these things in Yeshuas name

  55. We cannot set a standard as to what comes out our mouth to determine our worthiness of God’s love. God has determined that (he knew us) before the foundation of the world. However one expresses (song) ones love for God, its their choice and God has made it so.

  56. One night about 7 years ago I was praying over my concerns about certain types of `Christian Music`: The next morning I was woken by these words from the Lord:

    “I call it `The Apostate Sound` – and all who follow it are as lemmings running toward the cliff edge ….

    I asked what I could do and the Lord said;

    “You steep yourself in Me!”

    Interestingly I have just looked up lemming and found these two descriptions;

    1) a person who blindly follows others

    2) a metaphor for people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences!

    Keep up your good work Andrew – You are a voice crying in the wilderness – God Bless


  57. Martin Oct 18th 2012

    Josef, isn’t this the same liberal, ill-disciplined reasoning which has allow this particular aberration and so many more to take root and thrive?

    Aren’t we called, to follow His ways, do as we are bidden; worship in ways He prescribes, sing the praises of Him, and not man?

  58. Michelle Oct 18th 2012

    Based on Ezekiels temple vision. See here for diagram:

    To intercede for a people, there must be an entering into the Holy of Holies, to the throne of grace. The God of our Christ Jesus must know that He is held above all, and it is to Him that all our supplications are asked, praise and worship is given above all. Stopping at the altar of sacrifice with prayers and praise is not the true place where God wants us. He would have us come to the altar of incense, which are our prayers to Him, Christ’s God. Our ultimate worship and praise of His faithfulness to His covenant with us is the representative of the most holy place seen in the temple diagram. Through Christ to God, The Great I AM, the only True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
    Exo 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    There is something missing in worship and prayer today. Is it the subtle theology that is being embraced…that everything stops with Jesus. He is our High Priest, not only that, but He is the sacrifice. What did He pay for? What was the purpose? Where is the altar of sacrifice in the temple diagram? It is out side of the holy, and most holy place where the priests went to commune with God. Christ has entered into the presence of God for us, are we also doing the same? We are called to be priests unto God, and Christ is the High Priest. Let us follow His example, accepting His sacrifice, being cleansed by His blood, and then not stopping short of entering where the veil was rent. There is a standing invitation from Christ’s God, His Father, to enter up the steps to the alter of incense where our prayers are poured out, and then into the Holy of Holies where we offer our worship and praise to Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be His name.

    Jesus is the perfect model of intercession and worship to God. We would be in neglect of this great salvation if His example was discarded by His Bride.

    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. If this is so, then all praise worship and honor goes to the One who we are reconciled TO, rather than stopping to pour all praise and worship, prayers and supplications on the one who God used to become the sacrifice. The high priests did not worship the sacrifice, nor the other high priests…they worshiped God.

    This is not to say that honor, thanksgiving, and praise is not poured out on Jesus. Songs of praise are fitting, but as wonderful as that can be, we cannot stop there. Let’s realize with a full understanding, and get back to worshiping and praying to the One who is above Jesus. Not stopping short of all God has for us. This is the only way the Body of Christ will again be filled with the full measure of God’s Spirit to become the testimony and witness in these times coming.

    God is a merciful and gracious God, and He will bless those who are earnest in their desire to please Him, and walk according to His ways. But there is something missing in our churches today. Something that has unsettled my own spirit for along time. It seems we have discarded the old way of worship and prayer for the new way. Some old preacher said something to the effect that there will be Christianity without the cross. Which is true, but then is there rising a practice of the Cross without the True and Living God of Christ. Lifting the Sacrifice above the Most High God, the Great I AM of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I truly believe that this is where the general body of Christ is going off track in this generation. Not any particular age group, but the trends of Christianity today in the churches that are not into the “weird” manifestations of flopping on the floor, barking, and defiling the sanctuary…but the normal every day worker in the Kingdom of God. The ordinary teachers, pastors, worshipers that are truly seeking God, and wanting to do His work. In all the striving for souls, and the desire to reach the younger generations, let us not forsake the true worship of quietness. Let the young people play their music loud and dance before God, but the words of those songs should be focused on the Lamb slain to bring us into the place of worship to the Only God. Let us encourage new songs of praise and worship, but those songs must not bring in a false spirit that would only focus on worshiping Jesus above His God.

  59. Gayle Patton Oct 18th 2012

    This is such an important issue. Many pastors don’t realize that so many of the spiritual problems in their churches revolve around the worship and their spiritually immature worship leaders and their worship teams. They simply do not know what good worship is and do not know the Word well enough to know what is required of a good worship song. I have seen churches split over this issue. I have had discussions recently with a friend over the numbers of mature, committed Christians who are currently leaving our large church(Free Chapel) in Irvine, California because of the worship and pandering to the youth and immature Christians who should not be in leadership positions. The issue causing division is the worship music. The doctrine and teaching are excellent.

  60. Lisa S Oct 18th 2012

    Thank you, Andrew for posting this article. This is the first of it’s kind that I’ve seen and it’s so refreshing to see the Holy Spirit working – He truly does give us one Spirit to drink!

    DCE – What you said is something the Lord has shown me so when I read your comment it hit home!

    Many years ago I had to examime myself and my motives about singing. I wanted to be a singer all my life before I came to know the Lord and then once I knew Him it was still my desire. I was told by other Christians, including leaders in the churches that I needed to use my voice for Him and even that I should sing professionally. All this did was puff me up and put me in the category of usefulness when it came to any kind of music program in the church of which it was hard to say no to.

    I have since learned, after the Lord has done His great work in me that my desire to sing was too strong and too great. It put Him below singing. I thank Him now for showing me this! And as I followed I discovered that what I needed to do was to purge my desire for music so that my only desire was for the Lord. This took a lot of talking to the Lord and was not something I did on my own. I even wondered Him if I was a bit over the top about it because as the subject came up with others they didn’t understand. In fact, it created some stir because Christians and non Christians alike did not understand what I was going through and I was actually criticized to different degrees by Christians – I guess they thought I was being disobedient by not using my voice for the Lord.

    But I knew how necessary that purge was in order for me to understand that whether I sing or not doesn’t make a difference. But whether I know Jesus and whether I desire Him only and above all things, that would make a difference. It makes a difference for all eternity!

  61. debylynne Oct 18th 2012

    so much REALLY good stuff in these comments….the article was absolute TRUTH….

    i had told my husband a few years ago that i could NOT bear to listen to MOST of what came out on the ‘so called’ Contemporary Christian radio channel – it was all ME ME ME, I I I, over and over – when that song was so ‘big’…..’got some dents in my fender, some rips in my jeans…..yadayadayada – i’m free to be ME’ – this sickens me – it isn’t about HIM at all – dear LORD.

    my husband is a musician and has played on ‘worship teams’ in every church we have ever been in and he tells me that MUCH of the time, what goes on, is that the ‘leader’ picks songs that he knows will ‘manipulate and move’ the people – to try and get an ’emotional’ thing going on that people will say was the ‘Spirit of the LORD’ – when things WEREN’T moving along, he said the ‘leader’ would say, let’s do ‘such and such’ – that’ll make something happen – but WHAT??? no one is ‘changed’ in this – no one is TRULY changed – it is simply an ’emotional outburst’ that brings NOTHING in the end.

    SCRIPTURE IN SONG – THAT is a TRULY WONDERFUL thing – back in the day i learned so MUCH scripture through song and it is still with me – encouraging me day by day. amen!!

  62. Martin Oct 18th 2012

    Abhorrent as the degradation of our songs are, we can see it as but part of a movement to utterly remove the foundations of Christianity from the minds of it’s people. Music is always a popular medium, and profitable too!

    More recent translations of the Bible have an ‘axe to grind,’ so to speak. Each one is translated from a particular view point which automatically skews the intended meaning of certain passages. Again, the foundations are being shaken, indeed, removed in so many places.

    I was asked again a few weeks ago, which translation do you read? Well, I read the AV to hear what God says, and the NIV to read what others are reading.

    Take a look at Hebrew 6:1-2. There, according to the writer of Hebrews, are the principles of the doctrine of Christ (AV) or elementary teachings (NIV). I suggest if we were truly grounded in this passage, much of today’s ‘christianity’ wouldn’t exist simply because most would reject it as false.

    What a shame, the music industry wouldn’t ever be the same again!

  63. Deborah Oct 18th 2012

    I agree with Greg T. the music you hear today even in the churches, is about me,me, and I, I, like what we are going to do when We get to Heaven, nothing about praise, the Psalms are all about what praise should be like.Worshiping the Father ! not what is in it for us!

  64. The opening paragraph of this letter grabbed me, especially the following sentence:
    I come being aware of the depravity from which I have been saved and that my heart, apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is desperately wicked and eternally sick.

    In the mid-80’s, at the age of 32, I re-dedicated my life to the Lord. Seeped in the culture of drugs and rock and roll, I was horrified to find groups like Stryper were embraced by the church. I was NOT an old-fogy back then! Rather, I was grieved by the Spirit of God dwelling in me.

    King Saul was rejected when he disobeyed God’s command to destroy EVERYTHING belonging to the Amalek. Saul spared the best of the sheep and the oxen to sacrifice to the Lord. But God said destroy it all….don’t bring the heathen’s stuff to me as a sacrifice!! Saul’s disobedience eventually brought death.
    (1 Sam 15)

    Descending from the mountain and full of the presence of God, Moses and Joshua discerned the singing in the camp as noise and the sound of war. Singing to a god of their own making caused the death of three thousand unrepentant Israelites.
    (Ex 32)

    When King David chose to usher in the Ark on a Philistine cart, rather than on the shoulders of men as commanded, God was not satisfied! The people ignored the commands of God; they had a better more modern approach to usher in the presence of God. What seemed right in their own eyes, brought death. (2 Sam 6)

    We, like Sarah, have become too impatient to wait on and obey God. Today the church mantra is more numbers – church growth. But when we default to our own worldly wisdom, using Rock music to draw-in potential converts rather than rely on solid gospel teaching and preaching, what is birthed? Ishmael.

    While I am pleasantly surprised to read all of these confirming comments, the usual response among Christians to the condemnation of CCM is not so affirming to say the least!

    Elders, please, man-up, take a stand against this leaven in your sanctuaries. Jesus chose 2 disciples named Judas’ (meaning worship) and one of them was a devil. (Lk 16:6)

  65. L. Alex Smith Oct 18th 2012

    I received this from the Lord on 7 January, 2011.

    As we were standing in prayer before Music Ministry practise:
    God is saying, “When you desire My glory beyond all else, beyond any desires for yourself, I will give you what you desire. And I will give the means to accomplish this in your life: Absoute Humility. I know that you want to be part of it; part of the ministry, seeing others respond to and embrace My Spirit and go deeper with Me.
    When you put My glory– the glory that is due to Me alone– above and beyond any desire for your own recognition, and far beyond desires for your own advantage, I will allow you to see the end result. I will allow you to take part in producing that end result, but in Absolute Humility, you will not see that you were a part of producing it.
    You have wanted to be a preacher; and you have wanted to be a musician. You can be those things– when I see fit to give them into your hands. I have put those things inside you. They are of Me. Do not cast them aside, nor the desire to do or be those things; but I will give them to you at the proper time.
    And the time is, when your desire to see Me glorified is honed and sharpened to a spear-point. Then I shall allow you to preach. But I will give you Absolute Humility. So, you will preach, but nobody will look up to you and say, “What a great preacher!” No-one will congratulate you on your Bible knowledge, nor on how spiritual you appear. In fact, people will be drawn to Me because of your preaching, or because of your singing. You will see the End Result. You will see them respond to Me; you will see them go forward into the depths of My Spirit. You will see them mature in Me, and reach unprecedented heights in Me. And this will be the result of your ministry– but you will not know that… you will not be allowed to know that.
    To yourself, you will be a nobody. Hide yourself in the cleft of the Rock. That cleft is a hiding place where not only the storms will pass by, but praise for you will pass by.
    It is safe here. You will be safe from Pride. I will give you that Absolute Humility, so that you will be able to see the end result, your desire to see Me glorified.
    And you be blessedly content in this, for this will be Life to you.
    I do not give that which you do not want.
    If you truly want this, I will give it to you.

    When I received this, I was standing in a circle of seven others; we were praying before our Music practise. Rikki was thanking the Lord for blessings, and as I was praying, I was thinking, “What is the greatest desire of my heart?” And I was thinking of “Delight thyself also in the Lord, and He shall give thee the desires of thy heart.” As I was thinking this, I was thinking also, “God can say ‘Yes’ to us only if we allow Him to say ‘No’. We have to willing for Him to do what He wants to do.” If we are not willing to accept a ‘No’ then we are closed off to Him in that regard; and that inhibits our be open to Him in other areas.”
    Then it seemed that I was just standing there with a look of elation on my face and a feeling of joyful buoyancy; I was just feeding on Life from Him! It was just flowing into me, and I began stating some of this (above) to my friends round about me.
    This answer (what God was giving me) was just feeding my spirit… I was just drinking it in! I could have just kept standing there, like Time had no meaning… except that of course it does.
    What a blessing.

    The “music” end of things as well as the “preaching” end is to be taken into account.
    Love to all from Alex

  66. I do believe that Steve Camp’s article on the state of Christian music is relevant for today. So many gospel artist have sold out for fame and money. I am african american, and I have long noticed that the black gospel music has been redused to prosperity and getting what we want from God, and not much directed to the worship of the Father…not to mention the homosexual mix that has entered in.

    If I did not know that Mr. Camp wrote this in 97′-98′, I would have thought that he was speaking about what’s going on today in the Christian Music Industry. Yes, very relevant for today!

  67. The one sentence that made the most impression on me was when S. Camp wrote:

    “We are producing a generation of people that “feel” their
    God, but do not know their God”……

    This has been happening to the church world for a very long time. Not only in its music, but in its function. People, by nature, at least many of them, are ‘feely-meely’…..if they don’t feel it, they don’t believe it. It has always been Spiritual vs natural. Your Spirit will always know, In the natural, we jump all over the place, because our emotions take over. God gave us our emotions, that’s good, but not to use them for selfish reasons, or self gradification. Good comments, one and all. Thanks Andrew

  68. Sheeja John Oct 18th 2012

    Teaching people what a straight line is and what it looks like, will save the trouble of showing them all the crooked ones. Even a zig-zag contains a few straight strokes, can it therefore be called a straight line?
    Showing one good apple and giving them the taste of it will help the babes (in Christ) in discarding the bad ones. But if you show them ten bad ones and tell them ‘it is not good’, will do no good. It will only confuse them the more.
    Teaching the people the truth of God and His Word till such time they themselves are baptised in the Holy Spirit and equipped by the Holy Spirit to discern the true from the false, is far more blessed and rewarding. Apostle Peter said, ‘we also have the prophetic word made more sure, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.’
    Be it false doctrines, false miracles, false spirit….you name it, or the music/worship songs of the contemporary churches as discussed in the current post; they all have the same root and therefore produces the same kind of fruit. The only way of dealing with it is by teaching the truth. In Genesis we are warned saying, ‘Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil’. Neither are we to eat from it nor are we to share from it.

    In Yeshua Ha Mashiach

  69. Wanted to comment as my daughter was a Christian Country Artist for the past eight years and for about twelve years a CCMA artist. She left the CCMA due to the disappointment in the actions of the industry and refused to sign a contract due to the greed and secular attitude. She felt that she had found a home in Christian Country Music and there are a lot of wonderful Christian artists in that field, but the same situation prevails in that industry too. People want to be held in esteem and money is the issue. Amanda did try to get them to see the need to “Keep the main thing the main thing” to Put Christ first and for most in all that was done. All decisions would be based on the Word of God and what is good for His Kingdom. Her motto was, “Music softens the heart so the Word of God can penetrate” if the purpose of the music was not to point one to Christ then, it was pointless. She had many benevolent works and never, YES! I said! NEVER took a salary! in all the years she served the Lord. We at HIS Ministry always gave what came in to serve the Lord. She went to the Apache Indian reservation to work for 8 years straight, never asking for a thing but taking them help. she started a program called “Christmas for Kids” that serves her home county needy children and last year served 525 children. She wrote a program called “God-esteem” as one cannot find strength in oneself, but must find it in God. She suffered for 11 months with breast cancer and during that time she witnessed and brought several to the Lord and all the time pointed others to Christ and was looking forward to her home coming which happened on April 30, 2011 and she was 34. She Loved God more than life itself and wanted nothing more than for her sisters and I to continue her benevolent work. She wanted Christian music to come back to Christ and in a glorious way so that a revival could happen here in the US. She wanted everyone to look forward to seeing Jesus some day as she was. There are some wonderful Christian artists, but there are many who want to make a name for themselves and reap the benefits of money and are very greedy. Mr. Camp is so nice and I have meet him once as well as Rich Mullens and many others over the years. God bless every one and may we all get back to the Word and start living for Him. My daughter’s name was Amanda Fessant, she wasn’t perfect, but she was forgiven and she loved Jesus for than life itself. Praise God for His faithfulness.

  70. debylynne Oct 18th 2012

    joan w
    VERY good point – that is what jumped out at me as well, from the article – so much so, dear LORD, this is what it has become.

  71. I believe that the line between the Christian music industry and true worship music has been blurred to the point where the two are synonymous. I’ve been writing scripture songs for years in anticipation of their return to the church.

  72. Darren Sargent Oct 18th 2012

    In answer to Michelle’s comment:

    “Lifting the Sacrifice above the Most High God, the Great I AM of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I truly believe that this is where the general body of Christ is going off track in this generation.”

    I don’t think is an “argument” about words, and if I misinterpret what Michelle intended then forgive me, and I wouldn’t interrupt the focus and flow of this message board if it weren’t for the comment on the stature and importance of Christ and His Cross. (A number of comments have already been made about our use of discernment; I thought I should use any that I have.)

    I take Michelle’s comment to mean Christ is lower than God the Father and His Cross only a conduit to the Father (Is this a gross simplification?), only useful for us to get the real treasure: the Father. Undoubtedly, God the Father is the God of our God Jesus Christ and to whom Jesus submitted, only did the Father’s deeds and spoke the Father’s words. However, the only time equality is mentioned in the NIV is when speaking of Christ not considering equality with God the Father, even though it was His by right.

    My point is this: it is impossible to exalt Jesus and His Cross too highly, only because God the Father has given Him – Jesus – glory. God the Father has exalted Jesus through the Cross (He has lifted Him up). And God the Father even says He will do it again; He will exalt Him once more. “Your throne O God! will last forever and ever!” Now, if God the Father and God the Spirit say this of Jesus then who are we to gainsay this? We cannot superimpose some hierarchy upon the Godhead with differing levels of importance and authority.

    The Cross is the sum and pivot of history itself, to demote this is to exchange this unsurpassed gospel for heresy. If anything, I see the Cross more and more trivialised and sidelined. The Cross wasn’t just a means, a trick, some essential maintenance – it is what we are all called to, to death, to bear the cross-beam on our way to Calvary itself, not to pay for our sin but to be united with Him. Is this not reason enough to worship right now? I think the source of our malady is the avoidance of the cross and all that it brings – if placed in the centre once more, that is more than enough to bring the whole of creation to worship and rightfully so for Jesus if the light of God which means He is God and He must take His rightful place, at the Head of the Church.

  73. Barry Schmidt Oct 18th 2012

    In the context of Christian gatherings and worship it’s a no brainier the words and lyrics need to be Bible based, ” Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another IN PSALMS AND HYMNS AND SPIRITUAL SONGS”
    This verse tells us the Content must be ” the word of Christ”
    This verse also tells us the purpose of singing these spiritual songs- ” as you teach and demo ish one another” . Worship in biblical song ( and not so biblical songs as this article so clearly articulates) is often viewed as a means of manipulating God, getting God to dance to our tune, getting God to show up at our meetings etc.
    Worship in song is viewed by most modern charismatics as a means to and end.
    This was not the purpose of worship by our fathers and by the psalmists in the Bible. Worship wasn’t to GET anything! It was an expression of gratitude, love, respect and honor FOR GOD ALONE!
    It’s not merely the lyrics of modern charismatic music that is self centred. It’s the MAIN MOTIVE of most worship services today.!

    Again more self effort religion! When we return to sola fde ( by fai alone) and sola Christa as this article exhorts then we will worship out of fullness and gratitude and NOT out of emptiness and the compulsion to use worship to manipulate God I to eating out of our power lusting hands.

  74. Margaret Newcombe Oct 18th 2012

    In agreement with Dennis! I sing my own songs and write my own (poetry, maybe! I just love to hear the words!)….
    Jesus said we either worship God or Mammon……There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground.On that note, on the issue of things being’ Black and White’, look around, there is so much awesome colour God created for us to write and sing and praise Him for.
    Jesus being The Word,( John 1) gave us so many words and songs to sing, psalms, hymns ( we are to write those with our own Holy Spirit- lead creative abilities) and spiritual songs ( that’s the Holy Spirit directly spontaneously responding in the corporate gatherings as well as alone with Him).
    It IS all about worship. Even our battle songs are to be for worship , thanksgiving and praise leading us into the place of eternal rest . I little bit of loud drums here and there within the structure of the songs, a flute here a violin and cello there with the anointing of God….let us lift our vision higher…… there is too much that is ‘chooks’ rooting around among the scraps and not enough Eagles of God soaring amongst the churches which are now controlled and institutionalized because of the worship of Mammon…..

  75. Barry Schmidt Oct 18th 2012

    Ok I have to say this too! What makes music ” Christian” anyways? What makes ANYTHING “Christian”? We have “Christian music, Christian TV, Christian schools and “Christian just about everything in the west! Heck ( sorry for the “unchristian word” WE EVEN HAVE CHRISTIAN CRUISE SHIPS!!!

    This notion of “Christian” anything with the exception of “Christian faith” and “Christian people” is NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE!

    What makes music ” Christian” is not lyrics or content but CONTEXT. If I sing a love song to my wife out of the love of Christ in my heart for her is THAT not “Christian”? Now if I sing that same love song to my nieghbours wife that same song is not longer “Christian”!

    Come on friends lets get real! What makes something “Christian” isn’t lyrical content any more than a making money selling Bibles makes it a “Christian business ” I am a painting contractor and I don’t use holy anointed oil paint yet what makes my business Christian is that I do business by Christ’s grace and power and honesty and THAT IS WHAT MAKES MY PAINTING BUSINESS CHRISTIAN!

    What makes music “Christian” is not lyrics but ‘ sla deo Gloria’ – when I sing or enjoy that music TO THE GLORY OF GOD ALONE! THAT is what makes music “Christian” and THAT ALONE!
    May God deliver us from our ” Christian” folly!

  76. Barry Schmidt Oct 18th 2012

    I’m on another roll! Sorry! Perhaps the religious zealots would be satisfied if the “Christian” music industry were to place this disclaimer on their music CDs: “NOT INTENDED FOR WORSHIP SETTINGS”


  77. Linda Spagnola Oct 19th 2012

    “The arts” – including religious music – are just that: arts. They are beside the point/extracurricular/in addition to/way of expression or expressing one’s self. “The arts” can be very secular in nature if not used according as the Master and Supplier intended. Any “art” should be spontaneous – example: spontaneously raising ones voice in song to the Lord in praise. “The arts” could be considered as gifts from the Lord. We have unfortunately put “the arts” above our Master and Supplier of those gifts. We have also twisted them so that appear to be spiritual, but most of it is actually of the world – worldly.

    If we truly love the Lord, have humbled ourselves before him and have set aside our own agenda, our worship and praise of the Lord will be spontaneous and that moment will be different from any other. It will not be programmed, will not be burned on a cd or dvd and will express what the Lord is doing with and to us at that moment of time. After that moment, we will move onward and the next bit of praise in art form will be fresh and new when it happens.

    Repetitive expression of “the art” (such as praise songs sung and played overandoverandover …) is about as fresh and valuable to the listener as repetitive prayers (which are condemned in the Bible). Remember the children of Israel in the desert? Father gave them FRESH MANNA every day and told them never to store the leftovers as they would spoil. If Father gives us fresh manna every day, should we not give Him fresh worship and praise in answer instead of canned or recycled stuff? Fresh Manna —– spontaneous worship and praise. Makes sense, yes?

  78. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    We all know times when God anoints a particular song being sung – and from this it is sung over and over. Many true Revivals have this. So we cannot make blanket “rules” against such things.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  79. Michelle Oct 19th 2012

    re: Darren Sargent

    Luke 18:19And Jesus said unto him, Why call me good? none is good, except one, that is, God.

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
    Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
    Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
    Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
    Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
    Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

  80. Davidsstar Oct 19th 2012

    Out of interest at reading some of these comments, especially on the volume of music in the churches, brought to mind an incident that i saw just recently in the fellowship that I attend. A new mother had brought her 2month old baby and placed over his little ears were large ear muffs. I commented, that maybe we all should take a lesson and hand them out as people came in.
    “If that doesn’t speak volumes nothing does” (sorry about the pun )

  81. I have mixed feelings about this. First, I agree that money and pride are dangerous pitfalls for gifted Christian artists. At the same time, accepting payment for serving in a full time ministry is biblical, though no office of worship leader is clearly defined in the New Testament. Of course the Old Testament tells us wonderful things about the role of the musicians and singers leading the whole assembly. I do believe God’s Spirit has prophetically gifted some to both lead in worship and to bring forth the word of the Lord as the psalmists have done. It is an odd thing that there also exists this radio kind of music that is not what we usually see in the church. It is a different thing, a kind of outreach or encouragement, a background music for daily living that we have. I know some CCM artists are profoundly anointed but most of the music to me is of the lite kind. It’s not the kind we have in church when we approach the throne as a people in unity, and power is so obviously present. Instead it is like eating a snack to get you past that afternoon lag. It’s Snickers instead of meat and potatoes. Not always though. I have had radio songs move me deeply. But a song by itself doesn’t have any power except if God uses it. One thought that occurs to me is that as much as I would line CCM to be more mature in its message, I know I would miss it if for example the government were to shut it down. That by the way is not as far- fetched as we might think. On the other hand if the lite variety is making its way into the worship service, as it is on some places, we risk losing the corporate anointing that comes from heartfelt praise.

    Now as for the message, I must say that some modern CCM artists astound me at their understanding and ability to express the truth in the limited lyrics of a song. Again it’s a mixed bag. We have those kind but also we have shallow songs written by perhaps immature yet sincere believers. We can tell the difference. But the question of who is going to police the lyrics makes it a difficult task. The church has always faced problems like this, with many voices teaching distorted doctrines talking over the voices if the mature experienced gifted ones.

    I think this is not a separate problem from that of the church in general becoming what Christ wants it to be. As individuals we are being taught by the Spirit to die to our pride and selfishnesses, to count everything we have as just waste in order to have Jesus living His life through us. As we grow, so do the musicians. As I say these things, I begin to feel that there is no need to change the music, but a need for apostolic men to call the church to ultimate living for God. No one can say what kind of music God should use. What works in one place doesn’t in another. But living according to his will is a universal constant. That’s what I think we need to focus on. By the way there is an abundance of good Christian music that is out there that us not fettered by tues to the CCMI industry, much of it free. There are free scripture songs, free worship songs, etc, available from people who don’t look for a reward in either money of the praise of men. It goes largely unnoticed tucked away in places on the Internet that few care to venture. But no matter, God leads who he wants to the waters when he sees fit.

  82. If you trace the background of music that brings you into real worship, you will find these songs were birthed out of a storm. Today,most of the music is so loud you cannot worship. The church I was going to, someone said to the pastor–are we going to become a disco church with all these lights and the smoke ? He said, if you don’t like it, you can always find another church. Many people have said how loud the music is, only to fall on deaf ears. I am 77, and it makes me sad that these young children will not experience intimacy with the Father, as i did. There is a book that was first published in 1665 by William Gurnall— Titled “The Christian In complete Armor” A must read ! David Wilkerson has Published it in 3 volumes . It will explain who we are in a warfare with.,and what we are to do. The devil is after our children, and if the pastors don;t wake up to what is happening , we will lose them. I have known the Lord all my life, but gave my heart to him at the age of 12. Our children don’t know what it is like to toil for Jesus. Thank God there is a few pastors who haven’t fallen into all this music.At my prayer meeting a lady was led to give a word from the Lord—-The children are being sacrificed on the altar. This was given over Five years ago. God help us for our crime. When we stand before God, we will give an account for what we did and what we didn’t do for him. Thank you Andrew for getting the word out there. Blessing to you and your family.

  83. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    Mary – I agree, sadly. The Youth are being coddled with entertainment rather than fed TRUTH.

    Very sad.

    Bless you!


  84. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    Mary – excuse me a moment of levity, but this statement particularly caught my eye-

    “Many people have said how loud the music is, only to fall on deaf ears.”

    Bless you!


  85. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    Amen! my brother was in the Christian “entertainment” industry (music, videos, movies) and as they say, “If you like sausage, don’t go to a meat processing plant.” All I can say is the inside scene would make a mafia boss blush. Money and Power drives it and I promise you that all mega churches are in “The Business”… It is very big money and it is a snare. The Devil has turned, twisted and completely invaded it. It is ALL CORRUPT…. It has to be completely purged. But, that ain’t gonna happen sadly, I believe, because of the days we’re now living in before the rapture. Stay out of it people….

  86. Martin Oct 19th 2012

    It’s quite opportune this thread has arisen just now.

    Here in the UK we’re embroiled in a show biz ‘scandal.’

    Jimmy Savile, a showbiz personality, DJ, fund raiser for charity, an icon of British light entertainment for fifty years. Mr ‘Clean.’ But we were deceived, by Savile, the BBC, his colleagues and our press, who now expose him a year after his death.

    He was a serial child molester, a predator on pubescent youngsters, girls mainly – currently there are 340 complaints against him at the moment- but worse, so many other British show biz personalities of the last fifty years are being ‘outed’ alongside him. The BBC is complicit in a massive cover up. Five Police forces were aware of the activities of these stars and did nothing over that fifty year period.

    Enough of that. I’ve no wish to elevate evil.

    But it points up Andrews well timed truth above. Show biz is a cess pit!!! It always was. Just take a sideways look at Hollywood. Would you want your sons or daughters embroiled in showbiz? Not for nothing did Oliver Cromwell shut down theatres and make all show biz illegal. He was a fine puritan man, a friend of George Fox.

    Nothing good can come from a cess pit until it’s cleaned up. Whatever comes out, even with a ‘Christian’ label on it, is dirty; motives are wrong, and the fruit of that cess pit can bear nothing but bad fruit.

    Yes, there are fine Christian men and women around being used of God to create wonderful melody, exquisite harmonies singing the praises of God, and that’s just how it should be. But the moment they become ensnared into the ‘industry,’ their anointing of God passes, their output changes and they change. They no longer have a ministry but a career; making money for the industry, irrespective of the damage it does to people.

    Again I say, lets be careful of the things of God.

  87. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    Yes – but look at Keith Green.

    Part of the “industry”

    but kept His focus on God and the Truth.

    Bless you!


  88. Martin Oct 19th 2012

    Andrew, that was my point about becoming ensnared into the industry.

    I understand you write and perform Christian music. Showbiz has not leaned over you like a mighty oak tree and smothered the daylight from you, choking off the anointing. You share a place with Keith Green in this respect, as do some others.

    But surely, from an insider’s point of view, you would agree, to get air time, to get the plays and make a name for yourself, a career, you would absolutely need to be a part of the show biz machine.

  89. Michelle Oct 19th 2012

    Should there be a flow of worship in our own personal home time as well as in the congregation? Is there a model of worship found in the Bible that would help to point us in the right direction? I believe there is. That model can be found while doing a study of Ezekiels temple vision.

    There is nothing wrong with letting the young people play their music loud while entering into His gates, and courts. Nothing wrong with lifting hands and dancing before God. But if that is where it stops, and all focus is on the gates, courts, and alter, then the holy quietness will not fall on the worshipper for the deeper work of God’s Spirit through Christ. That convicting work of the Holy Spirit will not happen…which is what reformation is all about and what so many are praying for.

  90. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    Martin – Yes – it is often a big trap.

    But not every single person.

    Bless you, my friend


  91. Martin Oct 19th 2012

    Andrew, I fully accept not everyone. If my post reads that I’m tarring everyone with the same brush, I apologise unreservedly.

    The intention was to comment on the visible showbiz, that part which puts itself out there giving the illusion of holiness and anointing, not to slur those who we seldom see and hear, who have truly been gifted of God in music and song.

  92. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    No problem, my friend


  93. Barry, I’m fully with you on this… God is not a religious fanatic who only tolerates ‘Christian’ music. He has given people gifts and talents for others to enjoy.
    I’m so fed up with most of the contemporary Christian worship music (lived through the nineties, that should say it all…) that apart from some very deep Christian songwriters (Keith Green, Dennis Jernigan, old hymns and the like) I am much more blessed when I listen to quality movie soundtracks, Medieval classical music and so on. Call me ‘worldly’, but I am sure God is more pleased when I listen to gifted ‘secular’ music than some modern ‘worship’ stuff that are born out of this monstrous celebrity Churchianity…

  94. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2012

    Why is the “Christian” music industry being singled out as needing reformation? Does it have people with greedy motives? So does every other industry and Christians in those industries are often the most greedy among them. Does the “Christian” music industry have people who are trying to make a name for themselves? So does every other industry have Christian people who are clawing their way forward to make a name for themselves and establish themselves as SOMEBODY in their field. Let’s start with the Christians in “Christian” Internet and “Christian” media!
    The truth is this industry is picked on because it’s “religious” in content and uses religious terminology and religious vocabulary in its lyrics in making an honest living.
    If church leaders are stupid enough to allow shallow and non biblical songs in their worship services then THEY need the reformation NOT the “Christian” music industry.
    As our late Billy Sunday used to say, ” sin can be repented of but STUPID IS FOREVER!”

  95. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2012

    Behind this entire argument is the bogus and unbiblical division between the sacred and the secular. “Christian” music is erroneously perceived as being spiritual and sacred and the musician are unbiblically viewed as a special class of sacred or “spiritual ” workers.
    The Bible teaches NO SUCH DISTINCTIONS!
    To the Christian EVERYTHING is sacred and EVERYTHING is spiritual. To the New Testament biblical authors the dishwasher is a sacred minister of Christ, along with the painter and the artist and the musician.
    The reason “Christain” musicians are being rebuked is because their industry is falsely and unbiblically viewed as more spiritual or more sacred than say Christian Internet providers or Christain house builders.
    Why then dont we rebuke the Christian house builders for not writing scripture verses into their setting concrete? Answer: because we hold a bogus belief that music and especially “Christian” music is more spiritual and sacred.

    What makes something spiritual and sacred? Doing it to the glory of God is wha makes anything spiritual and sacred. Industries or vocations in themselves are never spiritual or sacred in themselves friends.
    We need to think biblically or our entire presuppositions are suspect.

  96. Barry Schmidt Oct 19th 2012

    I’m all for rebuking a Christian who writes lies about God by his lyrics. But his lies are open for all to hear- and who have their Bible infrint to them to discern their lies. But the employee who names Christ and lies about God when he is lazy or shows up late and steals from his employer- this is a more serious and deadly lie about God. What slanders Gods name more? A “Christian” musician who calls the Almighty “the man upstairs” OR the “Christian” minister who slanders the holy name of Christ by his self indulgence displays of unlove towards his brothers in Christ????
    The Lord was right when he said, ” The name of Yaweh is blasphemed among the pagans because if you My people”

  97. L. Alex Smith Oct 19th 2012

    The CCM industry is not intended to be a “Worship” medium for the most part. Its intent is to provide a Christian version of entertainment; in this it succeeds somewhat, depending on your taste in music. What would ye rather– that one listens to “secular” songs and music for entertainment, or listen to “Christian” ones (however bland) for entertainment? I myself do not care for much contemporary music– aside from a a bit of smooth jazz, or some “new age” (so-called, just a music style)….usually what turns my crank is Classical, and even earlier, Renaissance and Mediaeval, plus acoustic folk music. Most of this is “secular”, except perhaps J.S. Bach, who always wrote on his manuscripts “Solo Dei Gloriam” (unto God alone be the glory)–although sometimes abbreviated S.D.G. and of course G.F. Handel who wrote “The Messiah” amongst other Biblical oratorios. Our souls respond to certain forms of music styles, which delight or excite our sensibilities…in turn, we can then open up our spirit to the Lord. As long as that music does not contain an unclean demonic anointing, as some have sensed from Richard Wagner, and of course more recently, from heavy metal and acid rock et cetera… we can rejoice in the Lord, whillst our soul is delighted by something “neutral” that it finds attractive. Just as my soul (taste buds) rejoice in Mediterranean food–zesty flavours…. I can “worship God” in my delight of eatiing that good food! The motive behind, and the “anointing” (if any whatsoever) upon the music is what we should watch out for… but to expect a format such as CCM to be functioning in something iin which it was not really intended to do, is misguided! It shouldn’t be equivalent to the level of worship music that one would expect in church.

  98. Martin Oct 19th 2012

    ” The name of Yaweh is blasphemed among the pagans because if you My people”

    Exactly, but not for the reasons you’ve given Barry.

    Christ is scorned, blasphemed because we are not what we claim to be, set apart, called out from among them, witnesses to a risen, ascended Christ.

    We’ve become a liberal thinking, anything goes, let it all hang out movement which has no distinctive identity; has melded itself with the world to it’s own material profit and spiritual loss.

    My generation has betrayed our children and their children: that’s alright dear, God loves you anyway! If it feels good, do it!

    The Hebrews were called out from among the nations by God to be a people, to be His witnesses. Christians are called out from the world to be a royal priesthood, a holy nation. That does somewhat indicate a separation, a distinction. By their love you shall know them. Does the world know us for our love, or for our love of the world?

    In your reasoning, Barry, what is there about modern, populist, so called Christianity, together with it’s music and entertainment industry, which sets us apart from the world?

    Guess I’m one of the scorned religious zealots mentioned somewhere above.

  99. Jordan Shepherd Oct 19th 2012

    There are many insightful comments here and much to learn.

    Andrew, thanks for opening up this topic and posting the article. Indeed last days …

    Each of us should have a view on the role of music in our lives since as His children we will have a heart to glorify His name.

    I first heard of Jesus Christ and the Gospel in my late twenties. As a result I was saved, healed, delivered, baptised in the Holy Spirit and baptised in water, late 1990. The first song I learned was, There’s a River of Life Flowing Out of Me … I continue to sing that song with my children today. I soon discovered a poetry book, which I cherished, only to be told 3 years later that they were hymns, which I heard not nor knew not. I promptly secured hymn records from 2nd hand shops and taught myself these beautiful and sublime words that glorified the Lord. Years later I would recite them during some sermons I preached, while attending Pentecostal Church. All this was through no prompting of man, but by the Holy Spirit. Having no foreknowledge of hymns nor knowing anyone who espoused them. Soon after, a man gave me a tape with some beautiful old time simple Gospel songs. I devoured these and they continue to remain in my heart.

    I also kept close to my heart those simple contemporary 4-6 line songs and as the Spirit moved me, other select songs found their way into my heart. Then I was introduced to Keith Green’s songs, and these too continue to remain in my heart, having a lasting and profound effect upon me.

    As I began to discern the shift from praise and adoration songs to those songs that merely stirred the emotions, I observed changes taking place that I could only describe like this:

    There are deep songs sung by shallow Churches and shallow songs sung by deep Churches.

    Entertainment disguised ‘worship’ (music) was beginning to exert an influence above the word of God. I remained true to the Lord and praised Him daily with the songs he implanted in me. While those around me were keen to discuss the next popular cd coming out of Christian music industry, I was content to sing and learn children praise songs with my own children and all those songs that were deposited in me over the years I directed to the Lord in praise, continuing to this day. My wife would sometimes say, how can you remember that song word for word when we sung it 15 years ago for only two months? I would tell her that this is the work of the Holy Spirit.

    What I think is sad is this: if I were to conduct a believer’s meeting and ask the congregation to offer up unassisted (music instruments) praise, a song that the Lord placed on their heart that week, or day, for the most part, I probably would not get a response. For all the “worship leading” that goes on in Churches, what have the saints profited if they cannot by the Spirit be led to offer up spontaneous praise? We must be worshippers of the Lord in our private lives.

    Marion, I like that: “Music softens the heart so the Word of God can penetrate.” One of my favourite secular songs is “Don’t Cry For Me Argentina” by Julie Covington. It held value for me as a child growing up who was without hope. To me, it was evidence of something beyond my own reality, prompting me to meditate on those things that are pure and noble … (as the lyrics state, “But I chose freedom…”). And that was my choice as a disempowered and disengaged child: freedom from the bondage of poverty, neglect and rejection. Music seems to have the ability to encode people’s feelings and represent their current circumstances. We do have to be discerning and understand what emotions are being evoked through the “mood” (as Ps Wayne puts it) that is being created. Music can manipulate; it can be a form of escape; it can sustain a depression or motivate a reaction.

    Now the Lord is creative and I believe will inspire some to go forth and break hard ground to allow entrance of His word into the hearts of people. Iz – Well said. Music for worship; music for reflection and meditation. May the Lord bless, strengthen and anoint your husband as he reaches out to those lost ones in the pub.

    Years ago, I voiced my disapproval of the Gospel rap culture to an elder of the Church. He agreed with my concerns. About a year later, I “recanted” of my blanket disapproval and qualified my position by stating that rap is a powerful way to communicate a message. It should be taken out of the hands of those who abuse it. I demonstrated a clear Gospel message to an elder which left him speechless. I do not desire to rap, I am merely capable of it. Some years later I sat down to write a song. Thirty minutes later, I completed my testimony in poetry/rap. This composition has blessed many people and has been used in unique ways, including evangelism.

    Sarai, I agree. The erosion of praise has been subtle and discernment is needed in the dark days approaching. Another observation I have made is that over the years the chord arrangements have become slightly more complex and the flow of lyrics lack rhythm and the increased beat appears to facilitate an adrenaline response. What this means for us is that it is difficult to commit these songs to memory and therefore draw on them for a future time of praise. Let us ask ourselves, what praise songs in recent times has made it into the storehouse of praise within our own hearts? It also means that unless you are present at the “corporate entertainment venue” (with the music instruments and the music facilitator), you cannot participate in the concert of personal praise. The people have no deep well of praise from which to draw on. Perhaps this was a strategy of the enemy: remove the ability of God’s people to participate in God directed praise. Thanks be to God who has given us the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things and reminds us all that has been spoken of by our Lord. We can also praise Him with a new song. Glory to God!

    Michelle, good words. I think I hear you. Enter His courts with thanksgiving and His gates with praise. As we draw closer, so to speak, toward and into the Holy of Holies, the deep work of repentance and conviction of holiness is something we should desire. We leave the loud shout and surrender ourselves to Him, giving Him an offer, the sacrifice of praise. I remember an anecdote of Smith Wigglesworth: It doesn’t matter if you start in the flesh as long as you finish in the Spirit.

    To Greg T (above) – I agree with you brother. My love is toward the hymns.

    “Crown Him the virgin’s son
    The God incarnate born
    Whose arm those crimson trophies won
    Which now His brow adorns
    Fruit of the mystic rose
    And of that rose the stem
    The root whence mercy ever flows
    The babe of Bethlehem.”

    God bless.

  100. Andrew Oct 19th 2012

    I like old hymns for their lyrics

    But often not for their old-fashioned music style.

    We will never reach the youth of today with these truths unless more modern music forms are used.

    In John Wesley’s day those styles were “modern”. That is why he used them. We need a similar approach today.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  101. debylynne Oct 19th 2012

    darren sargent – i agree with you 100% my brother.

    michelle, i don’t know if i’m misunderstanding you but you CLEARLY seem to be trying to indicate that Jesus Christ is ‘less than’ God the Father????

  102. debylynne Oct 19th 2012

    barry s – you want to know WHY focus on ‘Christian music’? because the man that wrote this article WAS involved in ‘Christian music’, of course – so he focuses on what is happening THERE.
    also, i understand what you are saying BUT the truth is that just because a ‘Christian’ DOES something – doesn’t make it ‘holy’ to God – there are MANY things that ‘Christians’ do that are definitely NOT holy or right or good – i have heard this ‘view’ before from the NAR bunch – they talk about ‘redeeming’ everything – including worldly music and there being ‘no secular’ – i think it is a gross oversimplification of the situation and when you look at the Word of God, you see that from the beginning ‘practices and activities’ WERE set apart as ‘holy to the LORD’ – even MUSIC. GOD makes a ‘distinction’ by what is ‘set apart’ to/for HIM. doesn’t He??

  103. I appreciate the article very much–for a few years now, God has been taking me to a different place of heart where quietness is just fine and worship is expressed in many ways–I’ve come to re-appreciate the old hymns, though I do understand when young people today find it hard to relate to them. Bless their hearts, the young are geared up for action and most find it dull and boring to rest quietly.

    Sometimes when I find myself in a Christian gathering and the music is loud and even annoying to me, I ask God, “Now, what do you think of that? How do you feel about that?” I believe I sense in my spirit God saying, “It’s about the heart–I’m looking at the heart of my people.” I believe that there’s just so much we have to leave up to God. After all, He showed immeasurable grace to me.

    But I do agree that much of the music style today stirs up the flesh rather than the spirit.

  104. Martin Oct 19th 2012

    DebyLynne, Right on lady!!

    If we are what we say we are then we are separated unto the Lord.

    Separated means different, set apart, called out from among …

    I cannot see how something which is soulish, such as much modern so called Christian music, is sacred. It is not sacred, it is soulish. It’s not a worship of God, not glorifying Christ Jesus but setting man above God. Dangerous place to be … someone else thought they could do that.

    It should move one’s spirit! Worship begins in one’s spirit.

    Andrew, Charles Wesley is recorded as having frequented Vauxhall Gardens, right next to the House of Lords. It was a pick up place, whores and tricks met there. Lets not put too fine a point on it.

    Charles Wesley hung around, as I’ve read, listened to the melodies of musicians playing there, took that away and gave the Evangelical Revival it hymnody.

    As a matter of fact, William Booth of the Salvation Army did the same thing, and later, when the Army was seeing progress, encouraged his musicians to frequent music halls etc., he famously said, why should the devil have all the good music?

    So what am I saying here?

    Music, song, to glorify God, to exalt Jesus must, absolutely must, emanate from our spirits, and not our souls.

    So tell me what I see on God TV channels, and occasionally Youtube, is not soulish. Does it bring us to repentance in tears; does it bow us down to Christ, is it a means by which we may appreciate, even enter into the sufferings of Christ Jesus, perceive or enter into Grace?

    Remember, the word of God is living and active … it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit. Got a feeling there’s more on one side than the other with so much of todays stuff.

    Andrew, I take your point about modern melodies – musical composition didn’t cease with Wesley or Booth. But do we need stuff which stirs the soul into arm waving trances? I don’t think so!

    Whatever the answer, my friend, you’re loved in Christ here in the UK.

  105. Margaret Newcombe Oct 20th 2012

    I note a comment written about Oliver Cromwell ‘ a fine Christian man’…huh! He murdered and made slaves of Irish children! He was certainly not perfect., neither was Luther or Calvin….on that note Jesus said ‘Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect’; it’s about having a renewed, changed heart, on which He said He would right the law. It seems that many are born into Pentecost and Protestantism via fathers and grandfathers, no different from being baptised as a baby into Catholic, Calvinist and Anglican doctrines…..( note recent media story about Guy Sebastian, who it seems has found the seduction of show business too great, or he never was truly born again in the first place.)
    It is called the apostasy , the ‘falling away’….it is happening right before our eyes……

  106. Michelle Oct 20th 2012

    Keep worshiping and praying to Jesus only instead of the Father who is above all and the church will continue the downward spiral it has been on.

    Re-read the new testament and how those Christians prayed and worshiped, even after Jesus’ ascension and you will find that the model is the same as Ezekiels temple vision. Re-read who Jesus himself prayed to, and worshiped, and who he is the mediator between. God and man. He died to reconcile us to His Father, who in Jesus’ own words is above himself. You are not aguing with me, but the very words Jesus himself said.

    God dwells in the praise of His people. When we worship Him in spirit and in truth…which means a pure heart, then He is in the midst. If we do not worship the Father in spirit and in truth, then we are missing the whole point of Jesus’ sacrifice in the first place. Missing being able to come into the holy of holies to worship Jesus’ Father above all gods. Above all that is.

    Miss this, and it does not matter what style of music we play. Miss this, and all the words will be off in the very foundation of the gospel Truth. Miss this, and there will not be any manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I would even say it will bring in a false spirit straight into the temple where Jesus’ Father is supposed to dwell by His Spirit.

  107. Margaret Newcombe Oct 20th 2012

    I just want to say I come back to this page to find out if there are more like minded people out there, and it is great to read what people think and feel. I truly appreciate this page Andrew and thank you for it. So may I give a testimony of my own salvation experience. I was saved in 1975: as a creative arts student I was exposed to all kinds of immorality, and was involved with a young poet( Aussie) a student who was into rock music;”In sympathy for the devil” was a song he sang. I escaped that relationship having witnessed him OD on heroin…and was born again .I was so blessed to be saved in the 70’s, having experienced scripture in song style of true worship, in which the charismatic gifts were in operation , most importantly deliverance and discerning of spirits.
    My first response to write here turned out to be a kind of rap poem, it was deeply felt and spontaneous ( my daughter is young and part of the rap generation) …..I am now 63 years of age and am continuing to pray for the restoration of the Tabernacle of David, which God will do in the time of the end to usher in His coming .
    My eldership is not within a recognized church structure ( since as a so called ‘lapsed’ Catholic AND a woman I am ostracised from the teaching of the Word!!) I feel it is most important that teachers study the Word of God in order to be available to bring a word in season to admonish and exhort the young.
    There are many teachings on the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David available.
    Thank you.

  108. Michelle, You don’t know what the Word says.Christ received the worship of the apostles.

    Matthew 28:16-20

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.

    17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.

    18 Jesus approached and, [a]breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

    19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them [b]into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you [c]all the days ([d]perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. [e]Amen (so let it be).

  109. jackrabbit Oct 20th 2012

    Christ taught people to pray to our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be His name, he never taught people to pray to himself.

  110. jackrabbit, Jesus very clearly taught that after He went to the Father we can pray and ask Him for what we need, it is verse 14.
    Jesus is God.

    John 14:11-14

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    11 Trust me, that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me. But if you can’t, then trust because of the works themselves. 12 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father. 13 In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me for something in my name, I will do it.

  111. Michelle Oct 20th 2012

    So the Father may be glorified in the Son. Then does all worship stop at Jesus? OR should His Father be glorified?

    Who was sacrificed? The Father or the Son. Who is the High Priest? The Father or the Son. Who intercedes for us? The Father or the Son.

    1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Who is to be glorified? God through Jesus Christ. To whom is praise and dominion for ever and ever? God, Christ’s God.

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Who has made us kings and priests unto God? Jesus. Unto who’s Father? Jesus’. Who be glory and dominion for ever and ever? Jesus’ Father, Jesus’ God.

    Jesus is not his own Father. Two seperate persons. Two seperate functions. One above the other. Just as Jesus said: His God, His Father is greater than he is.

    This is fundamental gospel truth, you guys, come on!

  112. There is only one God, the Father is God, Jesus the Son is God,and the Holy Spirit is God. Three persons who are one God, the one and only God of all things. We must treat all three as Lord or we are not honoring God for who He is.In Hebrews the Father declares Jesus to be God. verse 8

    Hebrews 1:5-8

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    5 For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?

    6 Moreover, when He brings the firstborn Son [a]again into the habitable world, He says, Let all the angels of God worship Him.

    7 Referring to the angels He says, [God] Who makes His angels winds and His ministering servants flames of fire;

    8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).

  113. WRT.. Christian music & worship, Psalms teaches that worship is in actual fact any ‘honest’ act of adoration to God, so not just music, you can whistle if you have to but as long as it’s from the heart, honest & honors God. I do agree with the 53yr old pastor (apologies forgot your name and too many comments to go back)… there is a rise of true worshipper’s, they may have always been there but it is as if people are getting bold again in TRUTH. In a day and age of confusion and false religions, there has to be a distinction. We are in a crucial stage, you won’t ask a 10year old to write a love song and be convincing – intensity would be missing to say the least, so why do we do it – (nothing to do with age but experience, knowledge, intimacy levels)? Why would we sing of the King, if we do not know Him in spirit and truth; it’s in the relationship and that will carry in the songs – if you truly love someone, you just want to talk about THEM and put THEM in a good light! A relationship with God cannot be faked because it’s the one thing that sets you apart as a true worshipper: the Father is seeking true worshipper’s, those who seek Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH….!The message from Jesus has always been clear and so should ours…and above all through love, there is no greater command! Always praising the AMAZING, blessings (it is truly inspiring to see so many people passionate about God) and thanks Andrew, you truly are a blessing!!

  114. Do any of you know the hearts of these singers? When you do, let me know mine!

  115. Worship should be the primary focus of all God’s children. While there are many different styles of worship within the church, God is not as interested in the style of worship we incorporate as He is that we are worshiping Him. Worship will be the primary focus in eternity – when we see Jesus our Lord face to face.
    Worship can be defined as “worth-ship.” The degree to which we praise and worship God is the degree of His worth to us. If there is anything that God needs of us, it is worship.
    Again, the are many expressions and styles of worship in the church today – and God loves them all. Many congregations get hung up on a certain type of worship, and seem to stick with that style only. God doesn’t want us stuck in rut in our worship. He can be praised in a myriad of different ways, and we should utilize them all. Here are a few expressions of worship found in the Bible.
    Worship can be expressed in silence. We are challenged in scripture, “Be still, and know that I am God” (Psalms 46:10 NIV). There are times when it is appropriate to worship God in silence. There is something about being completely still and calm before the Lord. At such times, you will often feel a sense of awe in His presence. We see a scene in heaven “When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Revelation 8:1 NASB). This was the calm before the storm. The problem is, in most of our churches, we don’t have silent worship, but dead silence.
    Praise is often expressed vocally. The psalmist encourages us, “Shout to God with the voice of triumph” (Psalm 47:1 NKJV)! This was done in both worship and prayer. The early church “lifted their voices to God with one accord” (Acts 4:24 NASB). When Judah was under attack, “The Levites, … stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel, with a very loud voice” (2 Chronicles 20:19 NASB). So worship was expressed with uplifted (loud) voices. As the Apostle John viewed a heavenly scene of worship, they were so radical in their expression, he “heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns” (Revelation 19:6 NKJV)!
    Worship can be expressed with clapping (applause). Vocal expressions of worship were frequently accompanied with clapping. “Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph” (Psalm 47:1 NKJV)! Many churches clap while singing more lively praise songs. An offering of praise to God can be expressed by His people clapping and lifting their voices in praise. Some think this strange to do in church, but what do we do at ball games or any other times of celebration? We applaud by clapping our hands and shouting. How much more should applaud and celebrate the one who redeemed us from sin and shame?
    We can worship God by lifting up our hands. The psalmist said, “Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name” (Psalm 63:4 KJV). Paul wrote to Timothy, “I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands (1 Timothy 2:8 KJV). The lifting of our hands is a sign of worship, surrender and adoration. This was not invented by Charismatics and Pentecostals, but by God. It was a practice of worship in the Old Testament long before the birth of the church.
    Praise can be expressed in song. This form of worship is used by most churches. In Psalms we read, “Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD, O my soul! I will praise the LORD while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being” (Psalm 146:1-2 NASB). Paul wrote, “Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:19 NKJV). There are different kinds of songs mentioned here – palms, hymns and spiritual songs. As in the church today, we sing hymns, choruses, and many of the new worship songs of our day. The point is, we are worshiping in song.
    Instruments can be used to worship God. The book of Psalm ends with, “Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp! Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes! Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals! Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD” (Psalm 15:3-6 NKJV)! All instruments can be used in the worship of God. It says, “With loud cymbals; …. with clashing cymbals!” They really got into it. In another Psalm we read, “Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise” (Psalm 33:3 KJV). The only restriction is, it must be done “skillfully.”
    The are some groups who believe you shouldn’t use instruments in worshiping God. They say it is because instruments are not mentioned in the New Testament. But the Bible says, “These things (in the Old Testament) happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction” (1 Corinthians 10:11 NASB). Though we are not under the law but grace, those things written under the Old Covenant were written for our example and instruction. In the heavenly scene, we see that each of the twenty four elders have a harp (Revelation 5:8). If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in heaven, why would God forbid us from using them in worship today? The answer is obvious – He wouldn’t.
    Praise and worship can be expressed with dancing. Along with instruments, dancing is mentioned in Psalm 150. “Praise him with the timbrel and dance” (Psalm 150:4 NKJV). That would give a lot of churches today a coronary. David got so excited that he danced before the Lord with all his might. Michal, his wife, thought he was making a fool of himself and despised him. As a result, God struck her barren (2 Samuel 6). We should be willing to make fools of ourselves in worshiping God. God help anyone who mocks us for it.
    All worship must be done in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). No matter how we express our worship, it can be (and often is) done in the flesh and not the spirit. We must seek to worship in spirit and in truth. All to often, our flesh is just worked up into a frenzy, and it has nothing to do with the Spirit. That being said, most worship begins in the flesh before it moves into the realm of the Spirit. We live in the flesh, and worship must begin somewhere – let’s be careful not to let it stay there.
    No matter how we express it, we must put all we have into our worship. Read some of the heavenly accounts of worship (Revelation 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:9-12; 19:1, 4-6). They sang, fell on their faces before the Lord and put all they had into their worship of Him. The Psalmist said, “Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name” (Psalms 103:1). Let’s express our worship of God with everything we have.

  116. Brian, Jesus expained how to see what is in a person’s heart, even your own heart.

    Luke 6:43-49

    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    43 “For no good tree produces bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit — figs aren’t picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.

    46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ but not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to me, hears my words and acts on them — I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like someone building a house who dug deep and laid the foundation on bedrock. When a flood came, the torrent beat against that house but couldn’t shake it, because it was constructed well. 49 And whoever hears my words but doesn’t act on them is like someone who built his house on the ground without any foundation. As soon as the river struck it, it collapsed and that house became a horrendous wreck!”

  117. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2012

    I love all the great interaction on this. One time an old prophet told me I’m Gods stick for poking into a hornets nest! Lol!
    “Whatever you do do it all to the glory of God.”
    Just because someone SAYS they are doing something for Gods glory doesn’t make it so.
    This however is still the best plumb line for measuring and enjoying music and lyrics as well as measuring all of the arts and for that matter EVERYTHING IN THIS LIFE!
    Here are some biblical guidelines I encourage our worship teams with:
    1. It is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? “Those that worship Him must worship in Spirit and TRUTH.”
    2. Does it promote and align with the gospel of grace and faith alone in Jesus Christ? ” In it ( the gospel) the righteousness of of God is revealed which from faith to faith…” and “Afterbeginning by the Spirit are you now trying to secure your goal by self effort?”
    We avoid lyrics that promote self effort like the plague!
    3. Can everyone present understand what is being sung to glorify God? ” What good is it my brothers if there is someone present who doesn’t know what you are saying?”
    So much modern charismatic worship songs are so esoteric, so much vague hyper spiritualized lyrics that the worship leaders don’t even understand what they are singing let alone new comers or outsiders.
    4. Is is God centred? Worship is for God’ s glory and is NOT man’s. ” Do everything for the glory of God”
    5. Why are you doing it? Our motive and purpose for worship is
    what makes it anitbiblical or biblical. Many worship leaders have been taught the false doctrine that worship is to motivate God to move, to motivate God to show up or to somehow manipulate God’ s Spirit into doing what He already loves to do BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD PLUS NOTHING! This motive for worship is rooted in effort charismatic doctrine and should have no place in the motives for worshipping God.
    The rest is just personal preferences and should not be legislated .

  118. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2012

    Debylynne – the NAR teaching on redeeming all things is with the motive ” to take over this world in this age- via- dominionism – The false hope of the NAR IS hope that is both misplaced and mistimed -from the age to come when Christ returns to this age- of which Paul declared , “if in this life we hope we of all men are to be most pitied.”. The NAR ‘ emotive is dominion in this life.
    This was never the intention orthodox evangelical theologians had in mind when they taught the biblical commands to glorify God in all matters of this life and to sanctify everything we do under Christ’s Lordship. To the contrary their purpose was to teach Gods people that “to the pure all things are pure but to the wicked all things are defiled.” – Thus what makes ANY MUSIC OR GENRE OR ART pure to us is faith in Christ in us and the glory of God as it relates these- worshiping in Spirit ( under Christ’s control) and truth- (does it align with the truth)?
    Hope that clarifies that I am NOT promoting the NAR agenda.

  119. Once again a spot on article and some fantastic comments. So glad that I am not the only one who thinks this way – think that is how the devil lies to us, makes us think that we are unique with our interpretation of music, about what is right and wrong.

    I too have felt uncomfortable with a lot of the music and been told that I need to get into the “spirit” of the music. I question sometimes what spirit the people are refering to as so much leaves me wondering where the Gospel is in all of it. And yes agree with the comments about like some one said earlier, youth are encouraged to “feel” the Lord but they do not know Him.

    If is sad that so much of the world has entered into the church. Ii found a bill board a few days ago which I posted on my Fccebook page, made me feel very sad..

  120. ValleyAnt Oct 20th 2012

    Steve Camp and Andrew Strom are brave to even write or speak about this issue. The Christian music industry is far wide of the mark, but thank God for musicians who will speak up about it. I wish I had time to read everyone’s comments and respond.

    I’ve currently continued reading Strom’s ‘The Coming Great Reformation’ and just got to chapter four: ‘Revival!’ As I’m currently reading about revival both in Strom’s ‘The Coming Great Reformation’ and in Roberts Liardon’s ‘The Azusa Street Revival’, one of the things I’m learning is that revivals are always at the door but often can’t come because people and situations and such aren’t yet ready. It’s this ‘being ready’ part that may be most perplexing and discouraging to those who desire true revivals. I don’t know how this factors into CCMI, but I’m sure it does somewhere. To quote Strom: “As Frank Bartleman wrote, `The depth of revival will be determined exactly by the depth of the spirit of repentance.’” Who will repent regarding the Christian music industry to bring revival there?

  121. The old Christian songs are still ‘right for me’. these old beloved words, from the one they sang when I came to the Lord at the age of ten,”Just as I am”, to the many classics of yesterday that helped me grow in our Lord, “Trust and obey, there’s no other way”, “I walk in the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses…..” They fill my heart with joy and adoration for my King of Kings. My Mother’s voice filled our house with these precious hymns as long as I could remember.

    I cannot judge the songs of today for I would have to ask the youth this question:: Can you grow ‘in the Lord’ for the rest of your days by cherishing the words of Biblical Truth, or will they just fade away into past tense? Nothing of God fades away, ever..

  122. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2012

    Why revival REALLY tarries- Ravenhill wrote his classic book Why Revival Tarries-
    Im probably going to get myself in trouble over this but here goes- Why is it that every book on revival is based on what men need to do in order to make revival happen? The exhortaions are always the same old self will, self effort, self motivation message. “Do this, do that, pray more, repent more, renounce more, strive more, seek more – ad infinitum!”

    Could this be why revival REALLY tarries? My Bible says that when anyone departs from simple faith in Jesus plus nothing to any kind of self effort and self will to attain something from God that THAT PERSON HAS FALLEN FROM GRACE AND HAS CUT THEMSELVES OFF FROM CHRIST.

    What is revival but the presence and power of the Holy Spirit being manifested in and through Gods people? Me thinks the apostle Paul would ask the revival gurus of our day thsese two simple questions: “After beginning in the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” and “Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you keep the law ( you do this or that) or because you believ what you heard ( you believe the simple gospel) ?”

    I just know revival will come when we stop all our religious zealotry ( idolatry) and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL AGAIN.
    Why should God answer and send revival when we stubbornly refuse to do it Hos way – simple faith in Jesus plus nothing- and insist on doing it our way- by self effort and self will doing this or that.
    Where are the Elijah’s of God who will dare to believe that God makes His OWN FIRE and doesn’t need men to start His fires for him?

  123. Barry Schmidt, while we are all busy wondering why doesn’t God send revival The Lord is wondering what is the problem with everyone just doing what He tells them to do. Do we need something more than just doing what Jesus says? There is nothing more, we live for Him now. People can’t get their minds wrapped around the idea that we don’t deserve mercy or grace.It is as if somehow people think God is now obligated to give mercy and grace to people , because we pray or do good or have faith.Why are we suprised to see people getting what they deserve from God instead of mercy? Because we think that we deserve mercy ,but mercy is what you get instead of what you deserve.

    Somehow I think people don’t realy believe that they deserve punishment for what they have done, as if mercy and grace are what we deserve instead. It is like we think God owes us revival, but that is not true.

  124. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2012

    What does Jesus say to do my friend? “believe in the one God has sent.” without faith it’s iossible to please God. Repentance is NOT a change of behavior. It is a change of mind which is to stop thinking we gain Gods approval and grace by what we DO and to change our minds about how to get right and stay right with God- by believing the gospel plus nothing!

    It true that the deeper we repent the more God will send revival. But that repentance is not more DOING DOING DOING! It’s more believing believing BELIEVING! Only faith in Christ leads to the grace to do.

  125. Barry Schmidt Oct 20th 2012

    The ONLY thing that will shut down the grace of God from bringing continuous revival in our lives IS SELF EFFORT Read Galations if you don’t believe me.
    Nothing will keep God from pouring out His Spirit BUT UNBELIEF! A stubborn refusal to accept Gods redemptive provision which is faith in the cross of Christ plus nothing.

  126. Paul was talking about circumcision in Galations. Some were saying that you needed to be circumcised in order to be saved and Paul said that if you do that then you are obligated to keep the whole law or you are not saved.

    We still have to obey Christ but it will not earn you forgiveness, it is because Jesus is Lord that He must be obeyed. We love God and do what He commands out of love. We are commanded by God to love the Lord, it is an act of obedience that can only come from knowing that Jesus is Saviour and Lord.Revival is an issue of loving Jesus the way He deserves to be loved or not loving God above all things. When Jesus is lifted up above all things then everything else can be put in its proper place.

  127. L. Alex Smith Oct 21st 2012

    Why revival tarries? “Ask ye of the LORD rain, in the time of latter rain…” Zechariah 10:1 God has His timing for revival, but it still needs to be prayed in; it doesn’t just happen automatically.
    “SOW in righteousness, REAP in mercy: BREAK UP your fallow ground, until the Lord come and rain righteousness upon you.” Hosea 10:12 As John the Baptist, the Fore-runner, said, “Do works fitting for repentance.” Fallow ground means unplowed ground that has been hardened by the rain, compacted down. It needs to be tilled. “Rain” represents spiritual out-pouring. We need that, but it can harden us, unless WE break up (till) our own ground, prepare our hearts. “They that sow in tears, reaps in joy…” Psalm 126:5 But it must be full-hearted, not half-hearted, “And ye shall seek me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with ALL your heart.” Jeremiah 29:13.
    Even then, it still has to be the Lord’s timing; there are seasons of out-pouring, and there are times of spiritual drought. We may well be in a season of “summer drought” just before the autumn rains return–but again, we have to meet the conditions on our end. God allows the “drought” partly because, in some cases people have grieved away the Spirit;, partly because in His cycle He is seeing whose roots will go down deep for that underground Living Water (rather than overhead rainfall); partly because His timing is regarding the “ripe-ness” of souls in the world to be harvested. A recurring thought in the Song of Solomon (an intense poetic narrative that typifies Jesus and His Bride, and those in the Church who are “daughters of Jerusalem”) is– in the literal Hebrew: “stir not up Love, nor awaken It, until it is ready” i.e. mature, as in fully ripened. The people of God need to come into a certain state of maturity before it would be proper to stir up the love to be expressed. Pray repentance!–that MetaNoia, the change of mind of what REALLY gives you Life! Bring forth works fit for repentance! Seek the Lord for revival! Seek the Lord for your own level of intimacy to become white-hot. When we come into that place, like Charles Finney and Smith Wigglesworth and many others, the very presence of God will exude from us… His holiness will be on us, in us, and flowing off us, and that will convey the conviction of sins and the spirit of repentance to others, that we are longing to see manifest, that we may partake in gathering in the Lord’s final harvest of souls. Remember that “angels” can be His ministering spirits, sent forth to minister; or as the word Angelos means, messengers– that is us ourselves carrying forth His presence. So do the angels reap the harvest, or do we as God’s messengers reap the harvest– or us and them working together? Look forward to it, however that works…

  128. Barry Schmidt Oct 21st 2012

    The righteousness that comes by faith in the cross alone apart from our behavior or performance doesn’t merely secure forgiveness of sins as you seem to believe. the Bible does NOT teach faith to start and then behavior and performance works to complete our Christian life. The righteousness of God that comes by faith alone in the cross secures every single grace and every blessing and every gift- it gets us right with God and KEEPS US RIGHT WITH GOD -BY FAITH ALONE FROM START TO FINISH. As it is written, “The righteous shall LIVE by faith.”

    Galations is NOT just about circumcision as you suppose. It is about continuing to the very end of the Christian life trusting the very same thing as we started with: by faith alone in Christ Jesus apart from trusting in our behavior or performance “apart from the works of the law” .

    It is this false doctrine: “faith in Christ PLUS OUR SELF EFFORT BEHAVIOR that Paul is so distressed over in the Galations churches. This he says is what cuts people off from the grace that they need to live the victorious Christian life. There is NO TEACHING which has done more harm to the church than this false teaching of faith PLUS . The reformation under Luther was over this very issue. The Roman Chrurch didn’t have a problem with Luther’s teaching on faith in Christ. What they took issue with was sola fide ( by faith ALONE). Paul’s entire argument in Romans was the righteousness of God by faith alone from start to finish! Not merely to start and NOT merely to secure forgiveness of sins as you suppose.
    O my goodness please tell me that you really don’t believe that Paul was merely talking about circumcision in his letter to Galations! When Paul said ” by faith apart the works of the Law” every Jew would understand exactly what he meant- ” by faith apart from self effort behavior or performance.”

    We are saved from start to finish by faith ALONE. If you add ANYTHING to faith in Christ Paul says you are fallen from grace and you are cut off from Christ.
    If Jesus blood didn’t purchase it- it is counetrfiet religion. Self effort is the ONLY thing that insults the Spirit of grace, that disqualifies people from the grace they need to live a victorious and holy life and is the only thing that disqualifies people from the presence and power of the Spirit.

    Paul clealy teaches in Galations that the reason for so much immorality, strife, selfish ambition , carnality and the like in the Chuch is SELF EFFORT LIVING.

  129. Barry Schmidt Oct 21st 2012

    Romans 4;5- But to him that worketh not, but believeth in him that justifieth the wicked, his faith is counted for righteousness”

    Gal 3:3- “Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit are are now perfected by the flesh?”

    Roman 1:17- ” In the gospel a righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. As it is written The righteous shall live by faith”

    Gal 5:9- ” A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough”

  130. Andrew Oct 21st 2012

    I agree, Barry.

    However, there must be “fruit”

    There must also be true “discipleship”

    Bless you!


  131. Katherine Oct 21st 2012

    I have been pondering this for several days now. I just now did a web search trying to find Christian song lyrics that have the names for God that Steve has claimed are being used. I am not finding any. Patsy Cline did a song about the man upstairs long ago, but I wouldn’t call that a CCM song. Help me out here with some specifics. If those specific words are not used, how about the attitude or spirit? Thanks.

  132. Barry Schmidt Oct 21st 2012

    The Kansa City Movement did not merely fail and go off the rails because they embraced the counterfiet prophetic movement and because they embraced Rodney Howard Browns counetrfiet annointing. Rather they went off the rails long before that when they placed their trust in their prayers and in their zeal rather than in the blood of Jesus plus nothing in order to secure the blessiings of God!
    That movement didn’t die of a counetrfiet annointing. It died of a spiritual brain tumor. The “brain tumor” that they had from the start of the movement which grew up and killed the movement- thinking that- SELF EFFORT, prayer and human zeal is what would secure global revival.

  133. Barry Schmidt Oct 21st 2012

    Faith in Jesus is the ONLY MEANS by which we can produce fruit. Fruit is just that -fruit – which is the opposite of self effort works. fruit is not worked up or produced by human will power or zeal. Fruit is a by product of abiding in faith in Jesus alone. No one can produce fruit unless they are trusting entirely in Jesus and His blood alone.
    I have never yet heard a fruit tree groaning in self effort in order to produce fruit.
    Discipleship is not doing a series of tasks nor is it working for God- discipleship is trusting in and yielding to Christ in us Who alone can live the Christian life and Who alone can by His grace cause us to walk in Gods statutes and commands.

    The only thing that kills The grace of Christ in a disciple is self effort.

  134. Andrew Oct 21st 2012

    We are supposed to preach for “fruit”

    And we are supposed to preach for “discipleship”

    Just like Jesus.

    And there is nothing wrong with praying for Revival when that is exactly what God calls for.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.