“CAN’T FIND A CHURCH!” – Andrew Strom

If it’s one thing I hear over and over from people, it is this. They literally look everywhere they can think of in their town, and cannot find a fellowship that seems in any way “right”. Many will heap blame on these people. But I am not one of them. What are you supposed to do when you go right around a town and cannot find good, sound, anointed teaching anywhere? What if you are left with a choice of hyper-grace, prosperity, dead formalism or anti-Charismatic “King James only”? Which one do you settle for?

For years I have been hearing this cry and it is only getting worse.
There simply seems to be a “famine” of the true word of the Lord
in many places. This is the overwhelming reason behind a lot of
the “Out-of-church” Christian phenomenon – no doubt about it.
We would love to hear your own experiences and comments on
this topic, my friends. Below is a message that somebody sent
me just this week on this very subject-

Tracy wrote:
“Hi Mr. Strom, I live in America.. Our churches (most of them are
in apostasy). My family & I always get hurt, persecuted because
of the calling on our lives and our stand for the truth… Each time
it hurts worse and worse, and we feel like we don’t even fit in
anywhere. It has caused our kids, who are now grown, to not
even want to go to church. Where we live now, we are currently
looking for a place to worship and almost all churches here only
have church on Sunday Morning.. No service Sunday Night or
Wednesday night.. We need fellowship with true believers.

We have been in churches that seem like CIRCUSES (apostle
movement) where the Pastor insisted he was my “father” and
I was his “spiritual daughter” – weird.. We left and he threatened
we would not be blessed or doors would not open because we
left “his covering”! We’ve been at churches where the pastor was
blind and followed the flesh instead of the Spirit.. Putting demon
possessed people over prayer teams, etc.. Etc.. We have had
enough.. Been hurt because of our stand for righteousness…
To the point we are fearful of even connecting with a church ??

I know these are the last days but I am so disheartened. Will you
please pray for us? Offer any advise of wisdom you may have.
America and our churches are backslidden and it is seriously
so sad.. Where are his true people?”

ANDREW AGAIN: As I said, it would be easy to blame the
people and call them “uncommitted” or ‘church hoppers’, etc.
But the simple lack of GOD in so many fellowships today seems
to be what is driving a lot of true believers away. How can they
be blamed for leaving? Does anyone have the answer? How many
others have similar tales to tell?

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

God bless you all! – Andrew Strom ( [email protected] )

Posted in Articles by Andrew on February 20th, 2013 at 11:03 am.


417 Replies

  1. Robert C. Thomas Feb 22nd 2013

    We recently changed churches – denominations in fact. We tried several churches and found most of them dead husks where the Spirit of God had been excised long ago if He were ever there. We were very fortunate to find a small Pentecostal church full of God’s Spirit and led by a humble and sensitive pastor. We just joined this church after a year of attending and serving there. I praise God for His provision for my family. The church is the Bethel Church of Liberty Missouri led by pastor Les Clark.

    Be blessed in Christ this day my friends!

  2. stephen boyce Feb 22nd 2013

    i totally agree with you. i am trying to find a wife who is in the faith. i need a job keep me in your prayers

  3. thevoiceof1 Feb 22nd 2013

    Yep its definitely happening folks. Having suffered my self for many years with the same issue, I have found that the best way to join up to a fellowship is to have your questions in hand and go and speak to someone with authority of that fellowship and test the spirit of their theology. Especially the one where they record your tithing, to make you feel guilty if you dont pay up. I was in Africa a few months ago and guess what folks they are doing it there as well. Where do you think they got that idea from? The Bible? Nope from the West. Made me want to puke when I heard it. Anyhow if all else fails gather other believers with same kindred spirit and start your own fellowship. Hope that helps somewhat. Hang in there and God will not condemn you for where you are right now. Men will but GOD WILL NOT, he tests the heart. Be Blessed everyone.

  4. I am surprised at how difficult some Christians struggle to find the ‘perfect’ Church. I am the minister of Woodmansterne Baptist Church, Surrey, England and I have the exact opposite problem. My problem is finding Christians who are willing to commit to the life of the Church. I am crying out for people to step up and live out their walk with God, following Jesus under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I am crying out for Christians to commit to God, commit to each other and commit to being disciples who are passionate about making more disciples. Perhaps Andrew, your site can have a new feature in which you can link those Christians who struggle to find a Gospel preaching Church with those Churches that are struggling to find committed Christians who are willing to commit to her Biblical calling. What do you think?

  5. Andrew Feb 22nd 2013

    Good thought, David

    Yes – this can be a real problem also


  6. Bryan Hupperts Feb 22nd 2013


    I went through a widerness experience to rival the saints of old! One miserable day, I felt the Spirit speak this: You, go be the church you dream about. Quit worring about the carnal and unbeieving. You, go be the church!

    And I did!

    I survived wicked, self-serving elders and truth twisters and finally found a great local fellowship where I have been serving with likeminded and likehearted believers for nearly 5 years now.

    Jesus is Lord.

    Bryan Hupperts

  7. Andrew Feb 22nd 2013

    Well said, Bryan

    Fascinating point


  8. jeannine Feb 22nd 2013

    Yes, i can totally relate, we left the system about 20 years ago. Living in Victoria BC Canada, had a wonderful fellowship in a home! we saw the Holy Spirit move, God showed up, people got set free, healed, delivered, their gifts came to life and were able to grow in the talents God has given them. No agenda, who ever had a song, it came forth, whoever had a word, it came forth, New Testiment church in action. We are in Australia now Queensland and have still to find people who are like minded BUT, “do church “everyday in grocery store, school parkinglot, beachfront…. my word for all out there keep your eyes on Jesus and let him who have ears to hear , listen to what the Lord is saying, it can be a lonely walk at times but worth it……

  9. Markus Feb 22nd 2013

    The answer is easy: Start a church yourself. One or two others is enough to begin with. We did it some years ago. What you will find is this: struggles with all kinds of fleshly things in you and others, serious testing of heart attitudes, figthing for every biblical truth in the group, etc. You don’t believe me? Try it. You will soon find out, that you are only cooking with water – as everybody else. The simple truth – in spite of all necessary criticism – is this my friends: MOST PEOPLE DON’T HAVE THE GUTS TO DO CHURCH.

  10. I’ve known a few people who “couldn’t find a good church” but the reality was they were too lazy to look around and try any. Most the good ones are small and not well known. And no they’re not perfect, but those who won’t contribute to the body of Christ somewhere should not complain!

  11. I dont go to church, stopped years a go, have no interest.The only way I will ever go to church is if God Himself pushed me in the door. It is the Harlot Church, born of this world, has to keep changing to find its place in this world. There is no right man made church. When we come to Christ we become a part of His Bride, called out from the world and religion.Our choice, one cannot serve two maters, Jesus or Man, whom do you choose.

    and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    In all His Love

  12. i have withdrawn my membership at the church i attended. absolutely fed up with the “stars” of the church doing their bit who we are all to look up to – it is so much like a theatre it isnt funny – you pay your money and the show begins – everybody does their party piece and the applause is deafening at times – but many dont even know the basics of the christian faith.
    i spent too many years feeling guilty if i didnt go to church each sunday. now, i go when i wish and spend most of my time alone in the presence of God.
    Thank you Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever.

  13. We need to get back to biblical Christianity. The small house church is biblical. The small house church provides for loving fellowship and accountability with each other. I encourage people to find a small fellowship,meeting in a house and study there. The larger churches and denominations have gone astray. Worship has become a performance instead of truly worshiping God. Some pastors are control freaks. Some pastors are seeking followers for themselves and not followers of Jesus Christ.
    I would encourage everyone to read David Servant’s book “The disciple making minister.”

  14. Willem Feb 22nd 2013

    I agree, I can’t find a church either..
    maybe God called us out.. maybe we are those who should start leading small groups in love and fellowship from or homes.
    I’ve seen many wrong things in churches ‘the fake it till you make it’… referring to the river in front of the church or to begin speaking in tongues. But mostly buioding ministry foundations off old revivalists mistakes.
    I find most pastors blind, its a one way street and not fellowship…
    But boy I was shocked to hear that there is a pastor that says modern praise and worship is from hell, because it doesn’t have the beat sounds of stars…. absolutely freaky, and the church is jam packed.
    love ye all, I think unsurety is one of the greatest blessings to make sure where to place your next step.

  15. Monica Hoghton Feb 22nd 2013

    I don’t believe God will leave any of His born again chhildren without a church of His choice….how can a leg or an arm manage wi thout a body?.
    The answer to pray much, and wait for the answer.
    My husband and I were in this situation eighteen years ago when we lived in the south of England, and God knew what we needed and arranged things in such a way that we found ourselves up in Scotland, where we hve been loved and nurtured and have grown in the Spirit by a wonderful church which operates seven days a week in ministry, outreach and prayer. The power of prayer never fails,

  16. Struggling in NH for all these reasons.
    Pastors and denominations are too entangled in the world and afraid to stand for Truth. But they protest that they are not.

  17. Robert Feb 22nd 2013

    I sincerely believe the LORD is calling His people out of the religious system that is called “church”. From experience I know this is initially uncomfortable and those relationships that are built make it difficult leave. However, after finally leaving 10 years of charismatic / pentecostalism behind, I am finally learning the truth and beginning to walk in real freedom. I know there is more to come but I am so very grateful that the LORD is working in my life and led me to follow Him.
    There is no small group church where I live, but that is Ok. Occasionally I run into those who I use to fellowship with. They also have left these congregations and have been blessed. Interestingly, we are finding the LORD is revealing the same truths. The LORD is teaching by His spirit. He is always present, I have His word and I know He will lead me to join with believers who walk both in spirit and in truth soon. Till then, He continues to open my eyes to the truth. Such mercy and grace, thank you Jesus.
    If the LORD is calling you this way then I know He will give you the strength to leave, the courage to put away the false teachings and the desire to learn that which is true. True about Him and about His ways.

    We have all you need in Christ and His word. All you need is a love for the truth. If you don’t have that, ask and I am know He will answer. Luke 11:9
    May He bless you, keep and guide you at this time.

  18. Barna Study concludes:



  19. olleen Feb 22nd 2013

    Hi, I know you have been searching for a while. I have learned something in searching for a church before, Let God guide you to where HE wants you to go. Or as someone else had stated, a home church or start your own. But the key is to pray and listen. Don’t figure on what you want. He already knows that. But even today, we are in a mission fiield here in the states. I prayed before and asked God where to go…….I got a picture of the church but didn’t know the name…….I knew where it was location wise and searched 3 phone books……then I went ther for for over 14 years……I couldn’t grow any more and the sick church was all over it. In that time i visited an old Baptist church that the pastor had experienced the HOLY SPIRIT. Father God had showed me this was the place to go. After a bit of time, and His timeing, I have been there ever since. Perfect, NO…..Sometime works in religion, YES…But the pastor is willing to allow the SPIRIT to have his was in anyone……PERFECT NO WAY…….BUT……we are in training there…..training to hear from the SPIRIT, and stepping out …….mistakes yes, ……..bootcamp, definitely…..this is an inner city church , everything comes through our doors….we are the only curch that the doors never close on anyone….drunkards, druggards, prostitues, homeless, transvestites…..we are in where God wants us…..I PERSONALLY WOULD NOT have chosen this church for my self. It is not a “family” church in the sence that we are all knit together…..and my needs get met….we are knit together in a way that it is not about me, but outside the walls……Ask the LORD , he will show you……are YOU, looking to be part of a body or are you looking to be “the body?”…Blessings….pray…HE WILL ANSWER!!!!!

  20. Same struggle here in Illinois. I was in and out of “church” for a number of years. I never wanted a perfect church just a simple place that held to New Testament teaching and leadership. I was tired and worn out from all the bells and whistles (ie, loud bands performing for everyone as “worship”, thousands spent on sound systems, coffee shops, bookstores, huge buildings, ect). I was disheartened by non biblical teachings. I was dismayed by demonic manifestations in certain places. I gave up. Then Lord finally led me to a small house church. We do have a pastor and elders as in New Testament. We meet together, worship together, listen to a teaching and we are able to even discuss it among ourselves and share as the Spirit leads. I’ve only been there 7 months but witnessed such love among the group of believers, and tested everything like a good Berean. There are no “programs”, building funds, separate classes. All ages worship together in one place, have communion together and share our lives. I am very thankful that the Lord led me and my children to this group of people who so clearly love Him. It took a few years but very well worth the wait!
    I really feel for and can completely relate to Christians who are out of church. It is a lonely road but I am glad that the Lord led me on it for the season that He did. It was for a purpose.
    Lord bless you all

  21. I grew up going to church and have continued to throughout my adult years, and because of my work, have been in the midst of countless fellowships. I also spend the majority of my time in non Christian environments. Having grown up moving to a new city or area of a city quite often, I always pray as I drive the area, and in this way, or by a timely invitation, the Lord lights one up for me.

    Fellowship with other Christians have caused me more pain and heartache than anything else, but I have always stuck it out, and in God’s good grace, overcoming others and myself has given me a church life that is useful, productive and somewhat bullet proof. The day, as an American who tries to live in forgiveness, that the good Shepherd can no longer find me a flock will be a sad day indeed. I just don’t see it. Are there churches I would avoid? Sure. But, on the other hand, because of my experience, I have found that He uses me to mediate issues in some of these fellowships. Jesus got hurt by His fellowship, but He didn’t give up; He gave Himself away. A spirit of love and a commitment to forgive is necessary.

    Three things I’ve been taught:

    A perfect church is no longer perfect the moment I walk through the door.

    “I would never join a club that would have me as a member.” Groucho Marks.

    “I (you) do the same things.” Paul.

    If you want to see things clearly, when offended, say out loud “I do the same things.” For me, the Holy Spirit is usually more than happy to affirm my words, even if they are tacit as I begin speaking them.

    There are real problems out there. It is a dangerous environment. But it is unbiblical to sit in judgment, to think yourself more approved or that you are the new ‘new’ elite, and of course to think oneself omniscient and given the right to judge the entire church or a nation, but there is nothing new or novel about this. Divide and conquer. Hold yourself aside, and hold others to a standard you yourself (me) don’t actually live up to.

    Church is a wonderful place to practice your Christianity. I think this is it’s purpose. If we choose stubbornness, God has the right to let us, if vanity, elitism or hatred. Yes, church inflicted injuries are very rea,l and a place we should be unwilling to let the ‘accusser of the brethren’ win.

    Don’t give up until it really is over.

    God bless in Christ

  22. Good points by all. We have a video ministry now (Ezekiel 33:7) and don’t attend a regular “church.” It’s not because we don’t love the church we were called out of — it’s because the Lord told my husband we were to “tend our own garden and cultivate it.” While we were in that church, we were lights and love to the people there . . . and that is my key point. I have been in awful situations with the apostate church in America, but no matter where the Lord has Jeff and me, we are His lights, and I’m hoping that speaks to some hearts here. We still have a loving relationship and meet with the pastor and his wife monthly for lunch and fellowship in the Lord. Do not leave without a definite word from the Lord, but then, go out! Markus — Amen! David Meseg — great point!

  23. Hey Andrew. Thanks for this post. The issue that you address is very real, and it is becoming more real by the day. However, I do think there is more to the problem than the struggle to find a “Biblical church”, namely the way in which we choose to define the term “Biblical”. Oftentimes we use our own subjective sensibilities and pet doctrines as the measure by which we judge whether an assembly of saints are “Biblical” or not, and so Calvinists who “can’t find a church” would lump the little local Pentecostal church together with the local prosperity temple. Likewise, Pentecostals who “can’t find a church” oftentimes see no difference between the local Baptists, Presbyterians etc. etc. as none of these has “the Spirit”. I’m sure you know what I’m trying to say. I think part of the solution is to be willing to meet with other believers who share a fundamental commitment to the authority of Scripture, the call to practical obedience, etc. – in short, to the essentials – without making an issue of the non-essentials, such as matters of eschatology, the necessity of speaking in tongues as the primary evidence of having been baptised in the Spirit, etc. I have found the writings of Jim Wright a great help in this regard. If anyone is interested, you can check out his aricle Finding Ekklesia at http://crossroadjunction.com/2012/08/11/finding-ekklesia/. It has been a great help to me and our fellowship in South Africa.

  24. As I read your article I was amazed to hear of so many facing the same thing I too have faced. I pastored for almost thirty years. We ran into trouble when the truth came very strong that dealt with the purity of people’s walk in The Lord. We went through three church splits and was left with just a handful of people. It was very sad but we chose to shut down the church and seek God. Relationship with Him revealed a lot wrong in my personal life that had to be cleaned up. Yes I tried to visit other churches but most of the leadership wanted nothing to do with me. So we have been left to follow Jesus each day now and have found it very liberating to say the least. Yes I believe in the church but the organization has gotten off course and therefore we have found it very hard to listen to most ministers today as they seem more interested in promoting what there agenda is rather than following Gods. We fellowship we a small core group and occasionally visit when lead by God other churches and fellowships.

  25. My family and I also have gone through this as well. I walked away from being an assistant pastor because of the known and accepted sin within the church and church body. BUT, (and I say this from a point of experience having started a house church and researched other home fellowships) the problem is not the traditional church. The problem is the heart of the people. It matters not where a group of believers meet. For we have been to home fellowships that had the same foolishness and bad and wrong doctrine as the traditional churches. People just take the lies and fleshly desires of the big church, and transplant it to a home church. If you find a body of believers who hold to the same truths as you, fellowship no matter where they meet. This goes for those who think that the Spirit of God can only be found in church buildings as well.

  26. In agreement with many others who have expressed ‘be the church.’ God will lead us all to the people. Most important to stay in fellowship with Him. I’ve written a book,”Cafeteria Covenant: the voice, the choice, and the challenge,” which gives an account of my journey and the message He has placed within me.

    I have fellowship with a few and consider that for now this is His provision for me as I prepare to go forward into ministry. Yet, I minister every day in public places (teaching in a public school)… Am not surprised to see He is leading me to go back in and help to strengthen the feeble, but am waiting for direction on how to approach this.

  27. Why is everybody looking for a Church??? Look in the Mirror! You are the Church! Jesus said: Where 2 or more are gathered in My Name THERE I AM In the MIDST!! He didn’t say 2 or 3 hundred, not even 20 or 30 , but 2 or 3!! Gather in Jesus Name, Praise the Lord, REad his Word, Pray for the Gifts of the Spirit and LET GOD BE GOD in OUR MiDST! He WILL! Blessings, mike

  28. Church bashing is in. Lets all throw the stones. But who is fit and ready to prove something better? Who is willing to pay the price of suffering for a manifest church in some place? Church is not an option. We must find a way to do church. Let us move from bashing to building.

  29. Keith Jowett Feb 22nd 2013

    @ David Meseg.
    My heart is with you. Like you, I too am minister of a Baptist Church not so very far from you – ours in Hersham, Surrey. And like you, my heart cries out for so many seemingly non-committed, and often church-less, ‘Christians’. And then I remember that this was, for many years, exactly my state until God did a work of grace in my life. I pray that we grow ever more like Jesus when confronted with the woman caught in adultery. He neither condemns nor condones, but in love rescues and restores her.
    Grace and blessing.

  30. Ejimanze Feb 22nd 2013

    There are two sides to this coin/conundrum. The first is that God’s Church, the First fruits of Christ’s resurrection from the dead are baked with leaven. The present Church age is typed by the Feast of Pentecost:

    (15) And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought THE SHEAF OF THE WAVE OFFERING; seven sabbaths shall be complete: (16) Even unto the morrow after the SEVENTH SABBATH shall ye number FIFTY DAYS; and ye shall offer a NEW MEAT OFFERING unto the LORD. (17) Ye shall bring out of your habitations TWO WAVE LOAVES of two tenth deals: they shall be of FINE FLOUR; they shall be BAKEN WITH LEAVEN; they are the FIRSTFRUITS unto the LORD. – Leviticus 23: 15…

    In order words, there is no perfect Church anywhere under the Pentecostal dispensation/Age. To expect a 100% Spirit filled Church where everyone has been perfected is not according to the divine blue print. Every holy and genuine seeker after the Lord often/occasionally despairs at the depth of the depravity of the natural carnal mind he finds in himself, and is many a times stretched to the limit by its warring against the Christ in us, the hope of glory. Only hypocrites and Pharisees fail to see that if it were not by His grace alone, none of us can stand before the fiery holiness of Lord. I recommend this incredibly balanced preacher who is a blessing to many – http://www.josephprince.org;

    The other side of the coin is that God commands us to flee from Babylon. Of Babylon, God commands:

    “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;” Rev. 18.4

    Earlier the Lord Most High had issued the same order to quit Babylon through Jeremiah:

    “Come forth from her midst, My people, And each of you save yourselves From the fierce anger of the LORD.” – Jeremiah 51:45

    As we grow in the Lord, Babylon takes on deeper meanings. In our childhood days we pointed at Rome as Babylon. Later, the whole of organised religious was identified as religious Babylon. Finally, we know Babylon as any and all human effort to attain to the righteousness of God – which must be by faith and not of works.

    God’s people all start out as captives in Babylon (Organized Church System). We grow and increase in Babylon, just as Israel multiplied and increased in Egypt/Babylon. In Babylon we groan and yearn to return to Zion, the city of the living God.

    And then the time comes, and is now come, when the Spirit cries out loud and clear: “Come out of her My people!”
    When any hears the cry, s/he flees Babylon, into the wilderness, there to be taught, tried and tested and prepared for the soon manifestation of the Sons of God. All those who have heard the cry to flee Babylon can no longer feel comfortable in a church setting. Trust the Spirit to lead for, As many as are led by the Spirit, they are the Sons of God.

  31. Life In Christ Fellowship, Dillsburg PA. Our website will be up and running in a couple of weeks with sermons online. Our church has grown rapidly in the past couple of years. Bible preaching, Holy Spirit filled preacher, however we have people from many denominations, so we don’t see “speaking in tongues” or other obvious “manifestations” in the service. Worship is pastor-led and his heart is to keep it pure. People drive over an hour every week to come. If you’re in central pa area, look us up.

  32. I do not have all of the answers, but by the grace of God, I can help any sincere believer who “can’t find a church.”
    I experienced the charismatic “movement” and witnessed its early demise.
    I experienced the house church “movement” and saw its demise.
    But there IS an answer.
    I have written 10 Christian books, give them away free and also pay postage.
    I have a web site you may want to peruse.
    I am receiving so much fresh manna daily that I cannot write it fast enough.
    None of this is because of me.
    The Lord is still speaking today.
    Please feel free to contact me. Bob

  33. It will be as the days of Noah: Example– In this building we will do it our way, or you can entertain the highway. We have many laws and will ad as needed, we have many programs and will ad as needed, We will need more money occasionally, so we can eat the best cuts of meat,and compete to have the best organization in the community. We are mostly family owned and operated, we strive in all aspects to keep it this way, where the voting goes our way.
    But where is the power I ask?
    Have you not noticed the economical declension?
    Is Split and Build your Motto?
    Is Jesus over seeing all these New Buildings being built due to division or competition?
    I say; Jesus is on the same path taking care of business, He could be down by the lake feeding Four or Five Thousand, Comforting someone who has lost a love one, or anyone ELSE that is seeking Him. His biggest rejection was in the Building, not at the Lake. He cannot fail, His preset program and timing is always on time. He Is Here!

  34. alphafaith Feb 22nd 2013

    Hello my fellow Saints of the Most High God and Father and His precious Son Jesus Christ the Lord.

    I am an American pastor in Lexington Kentucky and wish to convey a few things regarding the issue of the American Church. and her current status. The Church in America is alive and well, without spot, wrinkle or blemish. Not because she earned it, performed correctly or has any particular virtue other than having believed on the Holiest of all – Jesus Christ and have their names written in the Lambs book of life. THIS IS HER POSITION and it is based exclusively on the righteousness of Christ. Now about her CONDITION. American Christians are riddled with self-seeking, law-based or performance based Christianity which cannot help but to produce corrupted lives. But this is the will of God that we always fail, producing the opposite of what we desire through works-based fellowship with God. This is the fault, in my view, of the siminaries and colleges which have been infiltrated by individuals who place the onus of salvation and power based on law-keeping instead of simple faith in the finished work of Christ.
    There has been a lot of talk about America being under judgment and this is not true. The Church in America is under judgment or let us say chastening. She will overcome, but not until the precious grace-based gospel is preached again and believed.
    So here is what is going on:
    Sin was fully and completely dealt with and neutralized at the cross of Jesus. However, its power and strength does still influence Christians who attempt to serve God via law-based living. This is and has always been the undermining factor of the peace, power and victory of the Church and true gospel of Jesus Christ.
    The following took the Apostle Paul 17 years to rightly divide the word of truth and to figure out where the law – which he served passionantely – until he finally understood – you cannot mix law with grace and expect have anything but failed, Christless Christianity.
    Legalist have sown leven into the Body and it naturally has worked through the whole lump until we who preach Christ + Nothing are persecuted for placing the onus of the Christian life upon the shoulders of Christ and the very able Holy Spirit.
    Time would fail me to say much here, however briefly let me give those who like Paul find themselves perplexed with a puzzling question.
    “Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.” NKJV
    Paul discovered when he attempted to please God through law-based legalistic living, he made the power of Christ of no effect and has albeit it fallen from grace. “whosoever of you who attempts to be justified by the law has fallen from grace.” This is not speaking of eternal life, but the life we now live in the flesh either being powered by grace or law. And the law does have power, is holy good and perfect – just weak through fallen flesh. The law produces the opposite affect on those who attempt to please God through it. SIN GETS ITS ONLY SOURCE OF POWER OR ENERGY FROM THE LAW.
    Rom 7:8 Now sin taking opportunity by the commandment produced in me all manner of evil desire.” “1Cor 15:56 Now the sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the LAW.
    Every Christian who is struggling with sinful practices is under the law still believing he/she has something to offer God in the performance of the flesh. Flesh and blood cannot inherit from the kingdom of God. This relegates the Believer to a life of constant failure. But if we cast out the bondwoman (law) her son (sin) will go with her. “Apart from the law, sin is dead.” “Where no law is, there is no transgression” “sin shall not have dominion over your, for you are not under law but under grace.”
    If you are struggling to find peace and intimacy with God it will be based on one thing alone – Jesus Christ’s finished work at the cross and our simple faith in it. “saved by grace through faith, not of works, it is the gift of God…”
    American theology has been hijacked by persons who do not understand the issue of law and grace and have propogated the same to the world and for this God is not well pleased. So judgment must first begin at the house of the Lord.
    Those in America who live by faith in Christ alone will be blessed and kept by God’s mighty hand during this time, while those preaching law will be pulled down and rendered useless until repentance comes. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world… . He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

    Beloved, I know this is brief. I can share more to those interested in more. grace and peace [email protected]

  35. P.S. I’ve been following Andrew’s teachings for years and have found my pastor to be in agreement with him nearly all the time. And for those like-minded, most in my church homeschool. We are truly blessed to have our little hidden church and a Pastor and men in leadership who are definitely rare.

  36. Charlene Feb 22nd 2013

    My husband and I had run the gamut of churches, when a friend gave us two books and encouraged us to prayerfully read them. One was “Fossilized Customs” by Lew White; and the other was “Come Out of Her, My People” by C.J. Koster. Both books brought to light why we were no longer feeling “at home” in the church system. We had just sold our home and had bought a place in Kentucky when we got those books, so in a sense, we were starting over, not just physically in a new locale, but spiritually also. Our spiritual eyes were opened and Jeremiah 16:19 at once made sense. We studied on our own for a long while. Then Father led us to a small gathering of others who were like-minded, wanting only the truth. There is no pulpit or pews, no pastor who preaches or pew-sitters who can only listen. Rather our congregation leader sits with us and we discuss the Bible with questions and answers that come from us all, not just from one man. We have had some lively discussions, but we each come away with more understanding of Father’s Word. In all our years of church-going, we never learned any of what we have come to know in just a few years here in our home meetings. I don’t believe Father ever meant for there to be mega-churches. There was never to be the pastor/laity system that we now know as ‘the church’. We, the individuals, were supposed to study to show ourselves approved. But we came to the place where we let pastors do all the studying while we were content to sit in the pews and be spoon-fed. That hails back to the Dark Ages when the common man was not allowed to even have a Bible and they only heard what the ‘higher-ups’ told them. Today, it may as well be the same for many people. They may as well not even have their own copy of the Bible because they never even crack to cover to see if what they are being told is truth, but rather let a man behind the pulpit tell them what he says the Bible says. There are too many programs that cater to age groups, when God’s Word is for every age. Our children sit with us and are taught to behave and be respectful and listen. They follow along in their Bibles if old enough, or sit quietly if they are not, but the Word still gets into them. I pray that Tracy will find such a group of believers.

  37. In the USA our Christian community seems obsessed with having a Christian president, ending abortion, penalizing illegal immigrants and amassing assault weapons.

    And don’t get me started on their pastors who are intimidated by their diversions.

  38. I can relate and find myself frustrated but not for very long. As with everything, no matter how small or large, I take it first to God then start to do what I can to research the problem. The main conclusion I have come to about finding the best church is the fact that I don’t rely on any man to feed me the word of God when I have the resources there in my Bible and thru Jesus Christ have the invitation to go to the trhone of God whenever I want. I go to church to hear good heartfelt worship, I love to sing with fellow believers in worship of our Lord. I go to hear the truth of the Word to confirm what I’ve read about my Lord Jesus and if I hear a sermon, no matter how good it left me feeling, that was not about Jesus, then I ‘ll ask myself and sometimes the pastor, why, when the entire Bible is about Him and Him alone. “Seek first the Kingdom of God” !

  39. Where does Judgement Start First?
    At The Altar or the Lake.

  40. How about this for timing!!!! I was inspired to write an article on this very subject 2 days ago. I only write when I am inspired to do so. This was my first article for two months. Please check it out.


  41. Diana H. Feb 22nd 2013

    I have not attended church regularly in 12 years. I had a very heartbreaking experience in the church I attended for 10 years where my husband and I had Care Group in our home twice a month for six years. I literally felt God ripped me out of that church then we moved to Houston. Houston has a lot of very large churches and I am not knocking the churches but the bigness of the churches is just too much for me. I do not like the “entertainment” aspect of church, someone called them the whistles and bells. I liked the worship better when we sang scriptures and we sang to the Lord instead of about the Lord. There have been subtle changes in the church that have taken the intimacy with God our of the experience it seems to me. I have more intimacy with God at home all day long than at church. At church attention to Him is fighting with all the other attention getting things going on. I have nothing against the Church, I am chagrined at the way church structure has, in my opinion, deteriorated through the past decades. I miss the fellowship with the church body some, but I would miss the fellowship with the Lord I now experience more if I were to exchange it for the other experience.

    I do talk with fellow believers every day through the Internet and on the phone. I witness to people all the time. Am I really not involved in the Church? I don’t think that is a problem. Do I attend church? No and I don’t really want to that much. Perhaps when we move back to a small town next year we will once again give it a try.

  42. Laurie Feb 22nd 2013

    First of all, thank you Andrew for your website and emails. They are a breath of life from the Lord for me. It is so sad to see the state of so many “churches” today. The lukewarm harlot church in America has bought into an unbiblical system of “church”. We have turned from surrender(dying to self) and separation unto the Lord to become self exalting, selfish, and living just like the world. We are trying to save the lost by what…living like and looking like them???? And by trying to make them comfortable and happy????? Where is that in God’s word, I ask? We are leading them straight to hell. Where is true repentance and surrender to the Lord, making Jesus Lord of our lives? Where is that call? We are an American church being lead by the flesh, by wisdom of man, seeking to please the flesh… not being lead by the Holy Spirit seeking to please God. We are putting on performances and shows to entertain the congregations so they will have a good time. The church has become a type of disneyworld. Some mega churches even “teach” and counsel pastors from smaller churches on how to “build/grow” your church. “Do it like we did…we have the right plan.” Outward growth does not equal spiritual growth. We have settled for an outward appearance without an inward change. What a costly mistake. We become our own gods. We believe our own wisdom. We become blind and lead others into blindess. God’s call to His church is to die to self. God’s call is to follow Him. God’s call is not seek treasure on earth, but in heaven. God calls us to go out to seek and save the lost. Instead, we build big multi million dollar buildings for ourselves to “worship” in, or have 20 kinds of “programs” at church for ourselves. We have it so backwards and so biblically wrong. Why do so many pastors not see it, and why are they buying into this philosophy instead of staying true to God’s word? Are they not truly seeking to be a surrendered servant of the Jesus Christ?
    We have been in 2 separate churches where we have watched a smaller congregation of true lovers/servants of the Lord CHANGE because of pastors” decisions to begin a “church growth” campaign. An almost visible presence of a religious spirit came in and began to take over and quench the Holy Spirit. It then went to doing things for our “comforts”, adding more performance type things…etc. At one place, it happened as the pastor began to follow a man’s wisdom, church growth books, and a mega church “counsel”. Does this straying off the narrow road onto the wide road happen because of pride and a self-seeking heart?? Only God really knows. It breaks my heart and has left us very lonely and hurt. We tried to talk to one of the pastors about our concern with what we saw happening, and were indirectly shown the door out. Fleshly lead “churches” do not want to surrender to the Lord and leading of the Holy Spirit, or live holy, set apart lives. That is the hallmark. And those in leadership with the religious spirit will always attack or come against those who walk with the Holy Spirit. It has been that way since Jesus and the pharisees. We so desire to find fellowship where the pastor truly seeks to surrender to the Lord, live for the Lord, listen to the Lord and follow the Lord….AND lead/challenge his congregation to do the same. We are to live to die….to lay down our lives for Jesus and God’s kingdom pusposes.Time is short. I pray God will soon lead us to a true body of believers because it is lonely in this wilderness.

  43. Did he arrive in a Limo, Did He Exalt Himself, Was He Born and Did he stay in the best Facilities, Who shouted kill Him, it was not an echo from the Lake. His Approaching Arrival will be as The Warning was Written!!

  44. Hi Diana

    Whilst writing that long comment, you may possibly have missed this comment from me which NOW might be hidden before your comment.

    This is what I wrote:

    “How about this for timing!!!! I was inspired to write an article on this very subject 2 days ago. I only write when I am inspired to do so. This was my first article for two months. Please check it out.


  45. This is very grieving indeed. There is not a lot of foundational teaching as far as a I can see.
    Our news station last night reported a church in Jacksonville, Florida doing the Harlem Shake. I thought at first it was a large crowd dancing in a bar with all the strobe lights.
    Everyone of the church members looked to be dancing out of control. They were trying to gather the largest crowd according to the news report.
    Once I took this pitiful story to the Lord, He said loud and clear, “NO RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!”
    We must pray for our pastors because before too long, Judgement is coming and it will be soon!!

  46. Robert McDuffie Feb 22nd 2013

    By the day of the Feast of the Trumpets 2013, the world’s economy will have crashed like never before. Over the following two years (from the FOT 2013-2015), three things are definitely going to happen.

    1. Every Jew on planet earth will be born again by the Set-apart Spirit.

    2. Every born again, Spirit-filled believer in the world will have left “the church”.

    3. For the first time since Acts 2, every believer in the Messiah of Yisrael will once again worship in spirit and in truth and thus the Messiah, Yahoshua will return for His bride on the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah) 2016.

    The above is not my opinion or theory. As Yahweh Elohim lives, it is thus saith Yahweh Elohim of Yisrael.

    Robert Arthur McDuffie

  47. Squishy Feb 22nd 2013

    dear Andrew Strom,

    I know it may seem those people are undevoted Christians, but let me assure you, they take communion, prayer study, and praise during their daily lives more so then just on sundays..

    Our families experience with the churches in Canada are not happy memories. My dad is an avid studier of the word, and very outspoken when somethnig wasn’t right in the church’s theology.

    unfortunately people don’t like that, we got banned and run out of many small towns before we gave up going to church all together.

    now we happily take communion at home, and quite frankly I don’t care if people decide it should have stigma attached to it, quite frankly it’s none of their dame business.

  48. The answer is in Joel. There you will find in chapter 1 the description of the church in the days before the Coming of the Lord. In chapter is the call for Joel’s Army which will usher in the last great revival, who by the way, sound nothing like we see in church.
    Our churches are powerless right now. Wasn’t always that way. As a result we are looking for water from a dry well. No matter what the complaint is (and I hear them from opposing viewpoints), without the Spirit moving, nothing will satisfy any of us.
    In Africa it is different. I have been preaching revival for 10 yrs. over there and the results are vastly different. The Anointing is so thick that it seems palpable, the fire is so hot that it ignites churches and souls coming running to the altar.
    What’s the difference? I don’t think its just the anemic preaching, carnal congregations, or hyper-critical believers. I think it is all of those, to be sure, but I really think that the real problem lies in the fact that we are not desperate enough for His presence and His righteousness.

  49. Marc Wildman Feb 22nd 2013

    2 Cor 2:17 “You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ’s authority, knowing that God is watching us.”

    I allow the scriptures to speak for themselves.

    There is a right balance in regards to making one’s living from the gospel and I am no man/woman’s judge. But this scripture above pretty much ‘paints’ a broad picture of most Churches here in America?

    Where are the storehouses, the equal sharing, why the pastoral one-man’ band who’s position superceeds all the other five-fold ministries. Why the elevation of the one-man, and why isn’t everyone’s gifts being used.

    If we had followed Christ’s simple organic House Church plan, kept the sanctuary clean, and not allowed it to become a marketplace, a place where men seek notoriety, where leaders created leaders not followers, no telling how far the simple gospel of ‘love they neighbor as thyself would have traveled to date.

    I am speaking about the gospel of serving and laying down one’s life for his fellow man/woman.

    It’s a sad state of affairs when everywhere you turn you see either the beginnings or an apostate entity. And, where is the authetic Holy Spirit!

    Marc W

  50. Johnye Feb 22nd 2013

    We are part of a house church. Our pastor was a student of Leonard Ravenhill. We don’t have a lot of members. Emphasis is on personal inner holiness, overcoming sin, walking in love with our fellow man and obedience to Christ – being in covenant with Christ. For instance, right now we are beginning a study on what covenant is. The pastor has encouraged us to read Henry Clay Trumbull’s book on the Blood Covenant. I don’t think it’s in print but I did find a readable file online so that’s what my husband and I have on our list of things to do.

    (We did worship at a local baptist church a few years back, because it appeared the pastor was ready to choose the word over church doctrine which denied the word (healing, overcoming sin, etc.) But that turned out not to be the case, and we left when he began preaching doctrine which was in contradiction to scripture.)

    Our little church is small, and scattered, with some attending by Skype. Some us live in neighboring states, so Skype works when the service is at another location. Sometimes at our house, sometimes at another location. That might be an option for some of you trying to find a fellowship. Find a house church and attend through skype or webcasting, etc.

    There is a famine of the Word in our land, but Jesus will feed His sheep.

  51. Mike, you said it well. We must STOP thinking and speaking of the “church” as a building or a denomination, or even a house church. She is none of these. The Church embodies ALL those who have been invited (called) OUT of this world, out of apostate religion, and out of heresy.

  52. AlphaFaith, you wrote “THIS IS HER POSITION and it is based exclusively on the righteousness of Christ. Now about her CONDITION. American Christians are riddled with self-seeking, law-based or performance based Christianity which cannot help but to produce corrupted lives. But this is the will of God that we always fail,”…

    This is a prime example of the teaching that led me and many others to find those who are seeking Truth and willing to live under the hard sayings of Jesus, to find Life! I don’t want to take up a whole post on this, but simply to challenge your statements by the plain statements by the apostles and Christ that would contradict the popular notion that God is not pleased with nor expects (demands) righteousness. I leave you with this lovely description of the Church from the beloved John:

    Revelation 19:7-8 (NKJV)
    Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    The church/bride “made herself ready”. And the robe? Is it Christ’s imputed righteousness alone? No, it is the righteous acts of the saints. (Saints of old properly understood the imputed righteousness of Christ being something that allowed us to actually choose to live and act righteously, lawfully).

    AlphaFaith, Paul was not referring to righteous acts of obeying the teachings of Jesus and the Spirit, rather Paul was saying that the Mosaic/Levitical Law was no longer necessary, as Christ is the substance of all those shadows. If we as a people could get this right, and lovingly correct the voices who are i error (ignorantly, often), many would no longer live in confusion on this issue.

  53. My wife and I have had similar experiences with churches and have found out about spiritual abuse in churches – some “in your face” abuse and others very subtle. I did a lot of research and found out that church wasn’t always this way. current church is drastically different than what church was back in the book of acts.the organized church system creates an atmosphere for abuse and religious tradition and suedo spirituality. Essentially man has taken over and Christ in not the head of it. House church seems to be a better direction, but can go off if people are not properly trained, which in my opinion, we all need. None of us have really been taught to cultivate our own relationship with Christ. we are taught to depend on the Pastor to feed us. That wasn’t the case in the early church.

  54. William Feb 22nd 2013

    We have been out of church for several years. There was so much sin in the church and it wasn’t being dealt with. We do not bash the church, we pray for them. We do miss Christian fellowship a lot. We believe we are living in the last days and we will need one another. Jesus is not coming back for the church if you read in the book of Revelation. He is coming back for the overcomers.

  55. Ejimanze Feb 22nd 2013

    Ever considered Esther in the book of Esther? She is a type of the Bride, the sons and daughters of God. Queen Vashti types the stiff-necked Church. She was invited to show off her beauty by king Ahasuerus (King Jesus)at a great feast (Feast of Tabernacles). She scorned the invitation (isn’t that what the Babylon Church has done to her Lord?) and was deposed. (Come out of her, my people!)

    But the King must have His Queen! So a call was made to go find the most beautiful babes in Babylon, separate them, groom them, beautify them, glorify them, and bring them before the great King. Can you see why the further away you are from Queen Vashti, the harlot Church, the more beautiful you are to Him. The reason for all the tests and trials is that you are being scrubbed clean to be presented before Him without spot or wrinkle or any blemish. Praise His holy name!

    But then you must remember you are being separated and prepared for a purpose. The time will come when you will have to lay your life down for the ‘Church out there’, God’s people scattered in the 120 provinces of Babylon. When Haman’s plot thickens against God’s people, all the ‘rabbis’ in the church world with all their preachings and teachings cannot undo that wicked plot. Only Queen Esther (the remnant Church) is close enough to the King to risk her life -“If I perish, I perish” – to intercede for the sentence of death (mortality) by Haman (Satan) to be overturned and changed to life and immortality by the gospel of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus! Can somebody shout, Hallelujah!

    Boy, I feel good that I’m living in these days and have been called to such a high calling. And none can see or partake of this glorious calling while sticking out with that old harlot Church system.

  56. Lastly, reading these posts, I wonder how many of all of those saying “Yes and Amen” on this one blog of Andrew’s could even fellowship together?

    One issue alone stands out: sisters in positions of oversight, eldership, or the office of “lead” or “co-lead” pastor.

    Since there never has been a position or calling called “Pastor”, we have a dilemma. God has placed overseers (elders/bishops who shepherd or “pastor” the flock of God), and at least according to Paul and Jesus’ example, God has His defined order in and among His people for the purpose of displaying the mystery of the Gospel (1 Cor 11 and Eph 5).

    Yes, sisters are equal in there quality and importance, not to be considered as a second class citizen of the Kingdom. To the contrary, that we would esteem our beloved gifted prophetic sisters as we do our beloved brothers. But this has nothing to do with throwing away the order of God, in that women are not to be leaders in the Church (read the qualifications of elders/bishops – same term) or in their homes. For they have a much HIGHER calling, and that is to be an example of the Bride of Christ submitting to the their Head, the Bridegroom – Jesus.

    Iow, if you want to call someone a pastor, that’s fine if by that you mean he is one leads and teaches the flock and has oversight (as a servant, not as lording it over them) over those to whom he will give account.

    This is just one issue, but I do not believe we have to be divided. It is the Lord’s will that we be one as He is One with the Father. If we would simply stop arguing about our will and simply follow His will, wouldn’t we see His Kingdom come and others know that we ARE His disciples, because we obey Him and love one another?

    I say this as a provocation unto love and good works. If we are not willing to discuss the real issues then we will end up going back into our dark corners of exclusion, lamenting the death of the “Church.”

    With much love in Christ,

    Bro Jeff

  57. Perhaps the problem, as it were, is that we have been conditioned to look for “church” as someplace external to us, some place that we GO, some thing that we DO, some “leadership” that we look to, something already on the ground with some sort of organization to it. And NOWHERE in scripture do we find that. Oh, sure, believers gathered together, and Paul gave some very general rules (I Cor. 14) to govern how that should be done (decently and in order), but they just got together and WERE the church. We ARE the church like we ARE salt and light. It’s not something that we do; it’s something that we ARE. So why not, instead of looking for someplace with a name, a building, a “pastor,” a meeting schedule, a “statement of faith,” a congregation, etc., we just start finding the rest of the church that lives around us and make it a point to get together from time to time and bear each others’ burdens? (Thank you, Jeannine!)

  58. Lawrence Rayburn Feb 22nd 2013

    I am a Christian survivalist in the USA…Texas.

    In 1975 after searching the churches for a spirit filled congregation that truly worshiped the Lord Jesus the Christ, the Lord took me up into the mountains of southwest
    Texas and showed me one of His many prepared redoubts for His people during the Tribulation, and told me to build my personal redoubt in that area. It took 25 years before
    I was able to purchase my redoubt, but it came in His good

    Being young, I thought I should gather like minded Christian survivalists and build a redoubt. But, when I slowed down and LISTENED, the Lord said: As in the
    days of Noah, so shall it be in the Last Days. Did I send
    Noah out to recruit people? ….No, Sir. Did I send Noah
    out to bring in the animals to put in the Ark?? …Again,
    No, Sir. Then you just sit tight, and when the time comes, I will send MY PEOPLE to be preserved in MY
    redoubts I have prepared since I created the Earth……
    Yes, SIR!!!

    Four years ago, the Mennonites started moving into this area, buying up the abandoned farms and putting them
    back into production….and I KNEW the Lord had kept
    His word to me….and that the US has no more time before it is destroyed. Yet the Lord has said He will
    not make a total end of Jacob (the US and UK in the Last Days), but will preserve a remnant of Jacob THROUGH the Tribulation.,

    We, the US and UK still have a part to play. We are the
    only allies of Israel, and we WILL come to her aid when she is attacked from all sides by Islamic Arab armies
    with help from Iran and Russia. We WILL destroy
    1.6 Billion Islamic believers and go after Russia for supplying them with nuclear weapons and other technology. We, Jacob…the US and UK, will be destroyed by nuclear fire just as we destroy Russia with
    our nuclear weapons.

    We will be GONE from the world stage and that will
    open the way for the antichrist to emerge from GERMANY, just as did Kaiser Wilhelm in WWI and Hitler
    in WWII. This new Pope will be the great False Prophet
    described in Revelation.

    In Daniel, Chapter 7, you read of the Little Horn who will stand up in the last days speaking blasphemously, seeking to change times, customs, traditions, and laws.
    That is Obama. He will be deposed without hand….a bloodless coup by our military’s Christian core, just in time to prosecute nuclear World War Three in the Middle
    East, because Obama will not allow nukes to be used on Muslims.

    Jacob is the right arm of the Lord Jesus the Christ in the
    last days….and with Jacob the Lord will destroy nations. It is so written in Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
    The US is Manasseh in the Last Days, while Ephraim
    is Britain but the ‘preachers’ of this day and age do not
    know that. They don’t know who Jacob is in the Last Days.

    The true Christians in the US are being warned by the
    Holy Spirit to GET OUT OF THE CITIES NOW!!, and to
    flee the polluted churches…to seek and nurture that one
    on ONE personal relationship with the Lord Jesus the Christ away from society and satan’s minions.

    Those people will be the remnant of Jacob the Lord
    preserves THROUGH the Tribulation. They will be
    Christians, many of whom will be martyred (heads chopped off by the antichrist) for refusing to bow to
    the antichrist.

    This is only to be expected, because American Christians have never had a human king ruling over
    them…it is anathema to them and their personal freedom. They will bend their knees to no one but the
    Lord Jesus the Christ….even when faced with certain
    death. And the Lord is proud of them for that willingness to die rather than bow to satan’s antichrist.

    So, the US and Britain ARE mentioned in the scriptures…you just have to know what God calls them
    in His word.

    All is about to be fulfilled and the Lord Jesus the Christ is about to return…..Hallelujah! Praise His Name.

  59. Ron Warne Feb 22nd 2013

    I agree whole-heartedly with the comments by bro. David Mesey and I really appreciate the point brought up by Alphafaith. I too Pastor a church in America, Syracuse N.Y.. I consider myself Kingdom minded and agree with most of what Andrew posts (but its not about guns Andrew but about the 2nd amendment 🙂 ).
    Though I agree that the church as it is presently structured, is in a state of compromise but God has some of us go into church Ministry to be agents of change from within. It’s frustrating when you try to offer people a Biblical product empowered by the Holy Spitrit, only to find out that most don’t want it.

    My church is small and the congregation elderly and we have come a long way but I feel the message God has laid on my heart is big and needs to be heard by the my generation and the generation behind me who can run with the message rather than retire with it.
    However, when younger Christians look for a “new” church, they mean it. They are looking for the new facility in the suburbs, not the small church within the city limits. They don’t want to be taught, they want to be entertained. They’re not looking to be challenged, but coddled.
    It is a 2-way street. It’s supply and demand. Churches that cater to the flesh exists because American Christians demand it.
    Hang in there, the great equalizer is coming. God is chastening the church in North America. When the trials and persecution comes, and it has already begun, there will be a separation from the profane and the consecrated. The Laodecean church will have no answer, the prosperity driven church will be exposed as liars and the true church shall prosper.

  60. Lawrence Rayburn, you have not been called to leave those in the world, rather not to be conformed to them. To the contrary, Jesus has called us to be IN the world, among sinners, that they also have a chance to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

    You wrote: “We WILL destroy 1.6 Billion Islamic believers and go after Russia for supplying them with nuclear weapons and other technology.”

    My heart rends over this type of statement. The Bride of Christ will NOT destroy those whom Christ died for and whom we still hope to share the truth of God in Christ, even if it means I lose my head to show them Christ during that last moment. Even if it means one comes to know Him and many of “us” die in the process.

    No, I will follow Christ’s example and be willing to give my life that others may have it, including my worst “enemies”. If you don’t think this is Christ-like, look at Romans 5:

    Romans 5:6-10 (NKJV)
    For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    Look at the early Christians leading up to Constantine. They were a picture of Christ in their not taking up the sword, but loving their enemies in hopes they would see Christ and LIVE. And they were successful. It was when Christians began taking up the sword that the church lost her witness during those years.

    Look to those beautiful saints who refused to kill their fellow “christians” who were roasting, torturing, drowning, and hunting them down. No, they blessed their enemies, and committed themselves to God.

    I beg you brother, in Jesus’ name, to reconsider such statements.

    Bro Jeff

  61. John Chingford…your article was such an inspiration!!
    Thank you for taking the time.
    You are a writer….May God bless your gift.

  62. Ejimanze Feb 22nd 2013

    @ Robert Arthur McDuffie

    Your prophetic word is of interest. We’ve been tracking similar things in the Spirit too.How can I reach you, and hear more?

  63. Hi KG Thanks for the feedback. Please keep in touch on my blog or send me an email.

    The article KG is referring to can be found on:

    Please feel free to check out the other articles on my blog

    God bless

  64. trevor barnes Feb 22nd 2013

    I feel for those that can’t find the right church.My friend,a pastor and myself have started our own church last year May.
    Pre- Trib Rapture,Communion for all ages,No Law in NT,Tithing a New Testament Commandment,Not Allowing to testify,Not allowing to bring a Word,No head covering for women, are a few of the reasons for leaving.My wife and I used to bring a Word regularly or a testimony.They wanted to know how long would this Testimony take,and have stopped all participation of congregats.They also don’t believe that the White Western countries of the world come from Israel(the 2 houses:house of Judah and house of Israel)these houses split and the house of Israel went into the Dispersion(Matt 10 and Matt 15) Jesus Himself told the Disciples to go and find them-the Israelites went into North Western Europe and until the Isles of the West-The UK ,and thus James 1:1 opens up his letter to those scattered abroad.Read it in the Word and check out history sites on net.The church I left has 500 members.If Christians take 1 Corinthians 14:26 very very seriously they will not only grow,but will hear others bringing in something to edify the saints.Secondly on this verse,let’s be honest if 500 people had to bring(1 Corinthians 14:26 again) “some spiritual food to the table”(to the gathering or church) we would be there for the whole day.This tells us big church buildings are out.The peoples house are in.Thousands of (rands-South African currency)dollars are been literally poured down the toilets in maintenance,water,toilet paper,electricity,cleaning staff and chemicals etc.To connect tithing to all these expenses, pastors put the people on a guilt trip and tell them that their salvation could be on the line.Andrew you may give my email address out to anyone interested in hearing about “The Tithing Fallacy”.We cannot “marry” The Old Testament/Levitical System to modern day living.The facts are tied together for easy understanding.The big church syndrome has simply spilt over from the Catholic Church with idea of channelling “the gold” into “one place”,thus the enormous structures,but full of deception,oppression and control.God bless you as you share God’s Word properly.
    Trevor Barnes, Amanzimtoti,SA.

  65. hi andrew … in response to your article today (2/22/13), it is a sad commentary on the state of the church when few can be found who preach & teach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, accd’g to Biblical standards! Indeed they are few & far between. My husband & I, however, attend a church who is part of that “few.” But, unfortunately, for “tracy (& anyone else, for that matter), obviously, that’s not the case. To them, may i offer a suggestion?
    Whomever is in search of a Bible-believing, Holy Ghost-anointed body of believers with which to worship & serve the Lord Jesus Christ, please consider Sonlife Broadcasting Network (www.sonlifetv.com/watch) … when no local church can be found, SBN is there 24/7/365, preaching & teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ & Him crucified to a world-wide audience; but please, don’t take my word for it – Pray & seek the LORD about it & ask for His leading. God Bless You, Andrew, for your ministry to the body of believers – it is appreciated & greatly needed!

  66. tom frey Feb 22nd 2013

    Like Brian Huppert wrote, stop worrying about what others are not doing, we must be the church. Now I have been in the controlling, money hungry churches, and when we saw that happening we quickly told the pastor it is time to go. The pastor didn’t agree, but we had to obey God. The best thing I can say is to learn to have a spirit of forgiveness and know that God see’s it all and he will allow the sin to continue in the lives of those leaders who are over those churches and he will expose them.Gal 6:7.

  67. Here’s your answer. I figured out several years ago that the major problem with every church out there is that there are people in them!

  68. Over the last 8 years or so, I have been to Mexico, Guatemala, India, Pakistan, Kenya, and Uganda preaching the gospel, at my own expense. I have witnessed many souls accepting Christ and miracles and healings have taken place. But here in the US I cannot find a church to fellowship with because the people are content with a form of goldliness as the word says would happen. One place I went to they were dranking coffee and eating right while the worship service was going on. When I told the “pastor” they shouldn’t be doing that during the service, he said,”That is part of the worship.” Recently I asked if there where others here that wanted to see the power of God in the church again like they are having in other countries and I never got one response. Let me ask again, is there anyone in the Fort Collins, Colorado area that wants to get back to God? If so, give me a call: 970 372-9833 Ron

  69. Brother Amartey Feb 22nd 2013

    I’m here in Georgia, in the USA. I came from Ghana, in West Africa, and have seen the poor state of the church here in America. For this reason, the Lord has laid a burden on my heart to proclaim revival in America. This is what I have been doing and I have come across much opposition and rejection, which are not unexpected. At the same time I’ve also come across other Americans who are yearning for revival, and we would continue to seek the Lord until He visits us again in this generation. If you’re here in the USA, you can get in touch with me so we could fellowship together. You can write [email protected] or follow me on Twitter @Revival4Now.

  70. I left organized religion 9 years ago after praying on my knees for a small fellowship on the East Coast of Tasmania and an audible voice said, ” Don’t Go ” I had heard this voice before and it was an accurate prophecy so I questioned it’s owner and told it that I have been told if I don’t attend I will go to Hell so it then said ” Anchor yourself in the Word”. So after a few more excursions into other smaller fellowships where they were using the same witchcraft control scriptures like the covering, ( submit to all who say you should ) wait on the Lord and rise like eagles ( as long as you never left your pew and questioned the doctrines ) put your money in the bag here and God will bless you, ( even though they music team were the ones who were blessed and the BBQ got bigger,) do not forsake the gathering, ( but stay away from those false Christians over there) , and so on. Exactly the same use of the control scriptures in every church. Jezebel is rife in organized religion.
    I went into the wilderness where the Lord does as He promises. Isa_41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
    There were many battles but it was only the Lord that brought me through and I could only rely on Him. And this is the way He likes it and wants it.
    Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
    Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. ( see v 33-44 )
    After much fasting and praying I am now coming out with power. Do not let fear keep you bound in organized religion because there is so much more out of their doors. and if you stay, that is all you will get!. Be strong, the King of Kings is waiting.
    Jer 12:5

  71. Mick 2 Feb 22nd 2013

    What does the Bible say about this?

    “…Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and you receive not of her plagues.”

    ‘Simple enough.


    “…seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    How is a church ever perfect?…

    When it follows Jesus. Imperfect people can follow Him.

    Where is Jesus?

    Outside “the church”: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    Join Him there, unless you know better. You’ll be in good company.

  72. Check out Frank Viola’s books Reimagining Church, Pagan Christianity, and especially From Eternity to Here

  73. Karen Carlson Feb 22nd 2013

    We feel called to have “no connections”. We are not alone. Please go to Stan Firth’s website http://www.remarkablereplacementarmy.com for his free download of his book by the same name. Custom or Command is another book that he has written on this worldwide phenomenon. We were blessed to find out that we are not in disobedience. God has blessed our decision with meetings with believers as He brings it about.

  74. William Hendry Feb 22nd 2013

    Praise God that you can tell the difference between true and false doctrine. Invite Jesus to lead you to the right place. Go where he leads, He could send you to false doctrine church in order to route them out. Being a grounded believer, I wouldnt set foot in any church unless the Holy Spirit says so.
    True Revival is coming, even if its at the cost of persecution.

  75. Chris H. Feb 22nd 2013

    Five times in the past did the Lord expose the corruption in the churches I attended. Not only were they teaching diluted sermons, they lied, stole hard earned money for selfish gain, cheated on their spouses, were caught viewing porno and professed great things, yet their lifestyles were the opposite. Even when the congregations called them on it, they refused to admit any wrong doing! They blamed the flock for not being faithful! I earnestly prayed before making a decision to leave each one, because I wanted to be sure it wasn’t ME nit-picking and being overly critical. Each time the Lord directed to get out and separate myself. I’ve no regrets, and to this day I do not attend a traditional church. I’ve tried over and over again, but it’s the same old nonsense everywhere I look. Preach, attend social gatherings, collect money, have fundraising events and put candy in Easter baskets. Forget about preaching the whole counsel of God’s word!! No thanks…The Lord is my all in all and I know I’m not alone in this decision. The apostate church is flourishing ….God Bless you, always enjoy your quotes and articles.

  76. watchful Feb 22nd 2013

    Seems to me there is more to it than just not being able to find a “church”……..what do the scriptures say?……there are reasons why the “churches” have become corrupted and defiled…… what we know as “church” was never the pattern shown to us by Jesus and the apostles in the first place. We have demanded a king like the nations, either that or we insisted on being one. Either way we have reaped the corruption that is readily seen now, because it is sowing to the flesh. How sad and faithless to think that Jesus is not enough of a King for us, or that we think we can take His place. Instead we need to be looking up to see what the Father is doing at this time and what hour this is we are living in and what He bids us do in light of it. Lifting my eyes up to the mountains from whence cometh my help………

  77. Oh wow – definitely would love to hear peoples’ thought on this subject. I believe I am one of (seems like many) who have in the past expressed their personal position on being out of church to you Andrew. I will read the other comments avidly, and hope someone has an answer, as sadly, I’m ‘still’ out of church. I miss the fellowship and of course, it is detrimental to one’s spiritual health. It is extremely sad, but positive in a way that there seems so many like myself, as I had begun to think that loads were falling away. Seems if I could just connect to some of these people. I am in the UK. Help!

  78. I’m not looking for the ‘perfect’ church or any church for that matter. I’m so nonchalant about venturing into any churches anymore. I’m not judging any church goers, I don’t feel spiritually abused or “backslidden” (whatever that word actually means?). In fact I have no thoughts anymore of finding a church. I have a personal relationship with my Lord, know His presence in my life & try to live in this. I sometimes miss group worship, but not enough to pass muster & join a church again. I also feel no guilt, shame, condemnation, or fear about not being in a church.

  79. I have just read David Meseg’s message (near the top) and was going to suggest the same thing – it would be great to be able to contact like-spirited individuals. It is difficult as a single Christian woman to walk into strange places, although I am no wallflower, but when you fear a repeat of being ripped to pieces by the pastor or other members, there begins the apathy and not even bothering trying. I would like to get out of this rut.

  80. Scott2 Feb 22nd 2013

    The American church has some serious problems, the first of which is that it does not have (for the most part) a fear of God, a desire for holiness, and a respect for the whole counsel of God. My family went to one denomination in the Northwest US where formula was what it was all about. The “right” worship team (that would surely make the spirit of God fall), the “right” coffee hour before church because we do need to get pumped up for worship, and the “right” ministries because following the template is what it is all about. And then, of course, you do need to mix in a little worship of personality because that’s how pastors move up the ladder.

    The result is half alive, sort of involved worship and fellowship, but a real lack of power because the Christians do not know the real power of God or their authority in Christ. The worst of what I saw was a mixture of good teaching but worship music that was so dark and demonic, a mix of rock/jazz/alternative, and so loud that you felt you were at a concert and there really was no worshipping God. It was not holy!

    The Lord told us to read the books of the revivalists at the end of the last century. We have spent four years doing that. The more we read, the more we believed that we must leave the church we were in. Nothing ever changed. No one ever really grew. The fellowship was nice, but you seldom heard a testimony or about what the Lord had done that week. Most of it seemed to be in the flesh. And for the most part (and this was very important to me) very few people knew how to stand on the promises and they were copers rather than overcomers and they did not want you to tell them that it could be different.

    We were very blessed. God led us to a small, inner city missional church where prayer is first, praise is second and the Word of God is paramount. These folks seem to have made it through the last 30 years without being soiled by the post-modern way of doing Christianity. And I believe God has protected them because they have put prayer first, haven’t built programs, they worship God with all their heart (and the spirit does come) and they love truth. They are a rag tag bunch of people whom we love and feel so at home with because it’s like going back to when it meant something to be a Christian (in my mind.) These people know God and have a fear of God. They’re only people, like us, imperfect creatures, like us, but their hearts, like David, are right before God, they know the Word, the stand on it, they worship in spirit and truth, they love one another, and they stay unstained from the world.

    It took us 27 years to find this group in our city. And that is really sad.

  81. I think the term church hopping was started by false shepherds trying to keep their numbers up at any cost. Doesn’t Jesus say I wish that you were hot or cold but if you are lukewarm I will spew you out? Most real followers know a true shepherd from a false one one. What would they have us do instead,give way to seducing spirits? The problem in America Babylon is they don’t know truth they just want to be entertained then sit back and sip on their lattes!

  82. My husband and I left our Pentecostal Church about 7 years ago. It had gotten into the Rick Warren “new thing.” Before long the pastor and his wife split up. It broke our hearts.

    We have visited churches that are very much charismatic, but somewhat over the top. People start jumping up and down shaking uncontrollably during a song service. That is not the Spirit of the Lord. God is a God of order. We have been to a King James only Bible church. I will say they are quite fundamental and they do stick to God’s Word. I prefer this, over the other stuff that is out there. I am a Spirit-filled believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. That being said, I know enough to know that not every word that comes from someone in a church setting, is of the Lord. I believe, what Hebrews 1 tells me. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;…Right now I attend services online, Wednesdays, and Sundays. I personally believe in the Received Text. The KJV is a word for word translation from the received text or the textus receptus, as was the Geneva Bible and those from long ago. Current translations have had about 64,000 words and texts removed from them. I prefer a completed Bible. Will stick to the time tested AKJV. We have the Lord, the complete canon of scripture given by the Holy Ghost. We have everything we need to live and walk this Christian life. I’m still looking for a church or fellowship in this area. Unfortunately, most places are into the “new thing” or emergent church type spirituality, like the “silence.” Or into the Hebrew Roots movement. Some are accepting Catholicism and joining with them as well as Muslims. We are to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing. Heaven help us, as we see so much error and apostasy within the church. Perhaps if persecution comes to America, the True church will shine once again.

  83. We are to come out from among them, and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Sorry about that.

  84. Mary Gordon McGorrill Feb 22nd 2013

    I was married to a man of God,(precher) who went home to be with the Lord. And now I have found the same thing in the churches. But one thing I do know that some times we forget. Do the Word. Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in HIS wonderful face and the things of the earth will grow strangle dim in the light of HIS glory and grace. No one can take true Church away from you. He is with in you. He is the one who will keep that person. Just rely on HIM. He started the work in you and HE will keep you in HIS own way and time……

  85. @ Ejimanze,

    “@ Robert Arthur McDuffie

    Your prophetic word is of interest. We’ve been tracking similar things in the Spirit too.How can I reach you, and hear more?”

    In regards to your posting as copy & pasted above, you may contact me at [email protected].

    Shalom, shalom

  86. Being involved in ministry for a number of years, and for the past 20 years as a senior pastor, I have seen many extremes in church services, and opinions of their leaders. From those who deny the move of the Holy Spirit, some even teaching it is of Satan, to those acting in the flesh and saying they are hearing from God. One pastor stated we are entertainers, and must entertain the people. Some believing we have Jesus in us on one side of our body, and Satan on the other side, and they are constantly fighting to see who wins. Some pastors have tried to please all the people, and are no longer in ministry due to burnout. It is easy to see why people don’t want to attend church, but heart wrenching fr those who truly want to worship in good fellowship. Most churches in our area only have Sunday morning service, and limit it to one hour. We have a starting time, and finish as the Lord leads.

  87. Linda Brown Feb 22nd 2013

    We have retired in a small rural town. It has been difficult finding a good church here without traveling far to a big city. Although we had for two years committed ourselves to a church where the preaching was good (although lacking in much talk of sin, repentance and reverence) we finally left due to the lack of the people wanting to seek fellowship outside the church and the mix of the world with the church. We are getting fellowship in small amounts outside of the church. We are thirsty for real fellowship in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe because of the affluent society we live in, the church here has become tainted and the believers have to repent and come back to the simplicity of the faith of our forefathers.

  88. In 2001 the Lord had me send the prolife poem “Little Innocents” to the churches in the Wichita, KS area. (My website is children-of-the-heart.com.) Out of over 700 contacts, only a handful responded and some of those were to tell me never to contact them again. The rest were the “that’s nice, now leave us alone” version.

    We were unwelcome in the churches we visited after that — ridiculed and excluded. Pastors would visibly shake when we were in the service. None of them would talk to me privately — I thought if they heard all that the Lord had shown me I might be able to change their minds. None were interested. So, we gave up for a time not wanting to disrupt their services.

    When we tried again, we found that many still remembered and were still offended. Others were so dead or so far off course that we just couldn’t stay. One pushed us out over my grandson’s hyperactivity. (After our third visit, we were pretty much shown the door.) Then one pastor stood up and declared that if we weren’t serving him, we weren’t serving God at all and had better get ourselves right with him, that’s the pastor not God. That was enough for me.

    I believe God has been calling His own out of the churches for years. The abortion issue was an eye-opening experience for me. I had been concerned for the children, but largely inactive before He called me. He showed me that the churches had turned their backs on the children in order to keep their tax exempt status. For the church, abortion is nothing more than a money issue. The truth of it is rarely mentioned, let alone taught. That angers Him greatly and has made us guilty of shedding innocent blood; making us largely responsible for the judgment wherein we now stand. (Yes, I’m positive. The Lord has made it abundantly clear that loving our wealth more than Him has placed us in judgment. If you want to know more, just ask.)

    I do miss church and gathering with other believers in person. I particularly miss choir and sharing my original songs with the church. However, I’m convinced there aren’t many true Christians in the churches to gather with. The best I’ve seen are little more than social gatherings. Fervent desire to serve Him is squashed or strictly forbidden. So, I currently gather with others online and teach my children, myself.

    I know there are good churches out there. I’m in contact with pastors, etc. that are preaching the Word. It’s just that none of them are within a reasonable traveling distance. Staying overnight every Sunday isn’t something everyone can do.

  89. Was actually getting ready to blog about this more.. (have touched on it in the past). Been over 3 years now without a traditional church. This last year, not even home fellowship or anything. Just a couple days ago I ran across a church I thought I might be willing to try – but I’m not holding my breath.

    I believe Christ intends for us to be in community and bonded to one another in self-sacrificing love. But churches are not these kinds of communities, at least not that I’ve found yet. And all here seem to have some combination of the following serious problems: Nationalistic loyalties which cause Kingdom identity confusion, lack of prayer and faith (i.e. self-sufficiency), materialism, business mindset in marketing and self-promotion, idolatrous theological positions, lack of compassion toward poor, legalism, or free-for all be of the world …self centered “me” religion. Now.. I can love the people in these churches, and I do. But I don’t have enough in common with them in my focus and purpose to belong to one. It is lonely and discouraging, but I have spoken with so many others in the same situation. It doesn’t have to be this complicated. Jesus wasn’t complicated. It’s not an easy path to follow Him, but it’s a rather simple thing. I think that simplicity does not leave room for our pride, so we find 100’s of ways to “add” to Him, or just add Him to our own ideas.

  90. roxannebarrett Feb 22nd 2013

    The church thing as man has made it, is over. Jesus wants a people, in a intimate relationship. Following His lead, moment by moment. He will bring His people together, and how He wants to. We can no do the weekly thing at the place under the title. It came out of man’s design. People sit under a person or two…their own ministries and gifts are pew sitting. The Lord called me out of the ‘distraction’ and that is what it was. I didn’t know the difference, until I had a severe trail, that pushed me to a much deeper relationship with Jesus, then when I went back into the church thing…I could see and I could hear Him saying…Come away with Me. That is what is happening, so don’t bewail the loss, if you just run to Him daily, he will connect you with others when the time is right, when you see things as He does. Then liberty and freedom in the Holy Ghost will be.

  91. Maybe this already exists somewhere (if it does, someone please tell me), but wouldn’t it be great if there was a place where we could meet online with a state and city designation, sort of like a CraigsList or MeetUpGroups, and find who there may be who is local to us? That way we could find others of the church around us with whom to fellowship in person without having to filter through all of the so-called “churches” out there and in the process get accused of being divisive for drawing the church out of the false institutional local manifestation.

  92. Allison Feb 22nd 2013

    Thank you for posting this very important problem that many of us are facing these days. My observation is that most churches are not controlled by the Holy Spirit anymore but are controlled by carnal spirits. Even the formally charismatic or spirit-filled churches have fallen back under the control of carnal spirits along with extremely loud and worldly rock-n-roll.

    We are admonished to serve either God or Mammon. It seems that the modern church has taken up serving Mammon with such sayings as: “God wants you rich”, “Name-it Claim-it” or “Blab-it Grab-it”. A few years ago, there was a church in Corona, California that advertized if you came to church you would get a free ticket for a raffle to win a Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Compare this practice to the church in the New Testament!

    I do have another question from a statement in the original article. Why is a “King James Only” believer a problem? If one would look carefully into a comparison of the words in the KJV with the modern versions one would find a wide divergence of meanings, along with many omissions.

    The following verses got me to thinking: Luke 2:33 and Luke 2:43. The KJV rightly says “Joseph and his mother”. The modern translations say, “his father and his mother” or “his parents” which implies that Joseph is Jesus’ father. This certainly casts doubt on the virgin birth. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Check out this website to see a scholarly treatise on this subject: http://scionofzion.com/kjv_1611_yahoo.htm

  93. Pastor Brian Bennett Feb 22nd 2013

    We have a small church and see people come and go.
    It seems many are one of two things. Either hurt and disgusted, or really when they hear a true word and right teaching are unwilling to conform to the will of God.
    Many times I thank God for being able to speak to lives.
    One plants, another waters, but God brings the increase.

    The Lord bless you all

    Pastor Brian

  94. Robert C. Feb 22nd 2013

    John 8: 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    But it will make you mad first.

    It’s hard to follow the truth. We all stop somewhere. Places we won’t go. Things we don’t want to do, or hear.
    Like the eddies in the stream of life, we stop to rest but then never press on.

    2 Kings 9-10. Jehu destroys Jezebel and Ahab’s legacy along with all the followers of BAAL.
    29 However Jehu did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who had made Israel sin, that is, from the golden calves that were at Bethel and Dan. 30 And the LORD said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in doing what is right in My sight, and have done to the house of Ahab all that was in My heart, your sons shall sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation.” 31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart; for he did not depart from the sins of Jeroboam, who had made Israel sin.

    The word “church” is not found anywhere in the Bible. The word that is used is Ekklesia which really means “a calling out”, a meeting or a gathering. It was a political word in origin. . Ecclesia ( e)kklesi/a) the Greek word for church, originally meant an assembly called out by the magistrate,or by legitimate authority Ekklesia is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew qahal, which means an assembly or a congregation.
    From the Strong’s Concordance; 6951 qahal kaw-hawl’ from 6950; assemblage (usually concretely):–assembly, company, congregation, multitude.

    So where did this word church come from? Our common dictionaries are honest in revealing to us the true origin. They all trace the word back to its Old English or Anglo-Saxon root, namely circe. And the origin of circe? Any encyclopaedia, or dictionary of mythology, will reveal who Circe was. She was the goddess-daughter of Helios, the Sun-deity!
    Some interesting facts emerge from the study of the word circe. The word is related to “circus”, “circle”, “circuit”, “Circean”, “circulate”, and the various words starting with “circum-“. The Latin pronunciation could have been “sirke” or “sirse”. The Old English word circe may have been pronounced similarly to “kirke”, or even “sirse “.

    So Church (chirche, kirke) is from the same root word as circus.

    The definition of Church from websters dictionary is; Definition of CHURCH
    1: a building for public and especially Christian worship
    2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
    3 often capitalized: a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: DENOMINATION c: CONGREGATION
    4 : a public divine worship
    5 : the clerical profession

    Examples of CHURCH
    1. This is the oldest church in town.
    2. They would like to be married in a church.
    3. I didn’t see you at church last Sunday.
    4. He is a member of the Catholic Church.
    5. What church do you belong to?

    But, you might interject, the word used in the Latin languages is from ecclesia. Iglesia = Spanish, chiesa = Italian. Kirche = German église = French
    Interestingly enough, the modern definitions of these words that come directly from the latin ecclesia are exactly the same as the English word church.

    So why is this such a big deal? It’s been this way for over a thousand years.
    Look at the results.
    The Nicolaitans (The priesthood) came into power in the third century. up until then christians were persecuted and met where they could
    Rev 2: 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
    Rev 2:14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

    History is written by the winners. The new hierarchy of the new church age perverted the very meaning of the words. Giving themselves all of the authority and power to talk to God. The intermediaries. demanding the continuation of tithing to make themselves rich, and to build elaborate edifices all in the name of God.
    Using the confessional to leverage power over the laity. The laity had no power of God or right to go to God directly.

    The Protestant movement didn’t get rid of the high places. They still have the buildings, the priesthood (Ministers, Bishops, et al), and the demand to blindly get in line and follow the wishes of the pastor in the name of God, rather than following the actual Will of God for themselves.

    “Christians” en mass seek out “the chosen ones” to get prayer for healing and guidance. They are never empowered to step out.

    Be Bereans. Search for yourself. We don’t want to end up on the bad side of Ezekiel 34

    What is the answer then? My best guess is to let the Holy Spirit lead us. Individually first, and then as we find each other and come together, lead us corporately. Only He can truely lead us into a deeper relationship to Christ. Only He can be trusted with the training of our souls.

  95. I can really empathise with Tracy. In the last 3 years since I’ve been out,
    In 2010 I was associating with a “home church” that i first thought was going to
    be an informal gathering (not having any prior experience with home church).
    Well, they were just meeting in grandma’s house with charis in rows, a
    music stand “pulpit”, order of service (everyone in pews must be quiet)
    and top down hierarchy (30 year old pastor, two 20 year old “elders”, his
    friends), until they could rent a building, register and become a “real Church”
    about a year later. They were effectively re-creating, all over again, their Baptist Church
    they left (to start this new one) and the dead-formalism-legalist Church I had left. But
    they thought they were going to do it “right” no doubt, based on the “9 Marks of a healthy
    Church” Neo-Reformed (Mark Dever) model. God did not want me to join that.

    My second attempt at finding home church in my area, this around 2011, i discovered the
    man in charge was conducting some kind of super controlling heavy
    accountability church where everyone had to have a man over them pretty much
    controlling their lives, where you had to give account to them for everything, confess to them
    and obey them etc. That really creeped me out. Since i have found out about the “heavy
    shepherding” movements which I did not know about before. I was disappointed as this
    group is in my neighborhood and i was only looking for simple, non -cult like, Christ centered ekklesia.

    And just 3 weeks ago, i was looking on the internet, and found a “house church” website with
    groups listed by area. I found a married couple that had been having church in their home
    since 2002. I met up with them and they told me that they have “evolved” beyond “old” house
    church (well, this is new to me!)…… and are now forming a new group around the book and teachings
    of a man called Sam Soleyn…… the book is “My Father, My Father”. He gave me a copy of the book
    and the website link. He told me that IF i read the book and am “on board” (in agreement) with
    these teachings and willing to partake in this “Father-son” practice then i could then be considered
    for joining their group. I read the book and checked out the website and found it to be promoting
    the Dominionism movement (surprise!) and the Father-son practice totally unjustified biblically
    (unless you twist scripture to force this false teaching). So i was disappointed again. I sadly
    declined joining their group. I truly believe it is a cult. They told me that anyone thinking they
    are a Christian and NOT doing this “Father-son” thing, following this model, is an “orphan” and NOT a true son
    of God. Yeah right.


  96. This link to the “Stages of Faith” might be helpful to some out of church Christians in understanding who things can work:


  97. steve nixon Feb 22nd 2013

    Remember the old saying? “If you want it done right, do it yourself”. Only under the Lord’s leading, I would suggest. But I think home church is the answer…getting back to the first century churches. And no more ‘one man shows’, give everyone a voice. Let the Lord lead. Pray.

  98. So many points to this topic. There is no life in so many organized Churches today. So few truly seek God in a quiet time or even are still enough to hear His voice, convictions etc. in order to repent. I have taken several to Church after bringing them to the Lord etc. only to have them hurt or even turn away from the Lord saying, “Christianity is not for me”.

    I no longer suggest people go to Church but take them to the Word & Prayer and allow the Holy Spirit to do a work in them. In fact in is happening right now. A 24 yr. old whom the Lord drew him to Himself, delivered him from extreme anxiety attracts & thoughts of suicide to a praying & in the Word person delivered and set free. We have fellowship on the phone. I pray in God’s perfect timing the Holy Spirit will lead him to fellowship. The place where the Lord wants him.

    Another point is, as much as I dislike a Church where the Lord is not present, the pastor does not have God’s heart but thinks he does, where there is not love etc. I am not focused on them any longer but taking the log out of my own eye. Have I ever been luke warm, have I ever backslid? Have I ever sinned? Yes, I have been there. But the Lord is finishing the good work in me that He began and I am no longer where I used to be. So, I was part of the problem at one time. I bet you were too.

    Now that I am more mature in my relationship with the Lord He has called me to pray. Pray for the Church, the Pastors. Not to look at all their lack but to pray the Lord will lift the veil of deception from them, to prepare their hearts to repent, to be surrendered with a passion for Him. For a revival & awakening etc. The key is take the log from our eye and ask & allow the Holy Spirit to shine on us what we need to repent of – repent and pray for others. For Jesus sake. He loved us while we were sinners – Died for us etc.

    I rarely hear, Let’s get right with God then begin praying. But it feels like there might be some pride in us whom the Lord has brought us out and now we see them and like to point and blame. I rarely hear the ones who call themselves , the remnant, truly being humble, praying for the Churches, but sense there is a tad of pride in thinking they are the remnant. Best if we keep a close eye on our own hearts and seek to see others as He does.

    I agree with Bryon Hupperts – Amen Brother! Right now I have Church every Sunday am with Times Square Church in NYC. Pastor Conlon has God’s heart. This has been my Church for 1 1/2 years now.

    I have fellowship with a sister and friend & prayer partner of 30 years. We are in one accord and pray several times per week and we have seen God move in a mighty way and are humbled by His great love and mercy. It is God that brought us together to pray for such a time as this. All glory to God.

    Lets’ be like-minded and in one accord and pray the Lord of the harvest to open eyes, ears & hearts and in His great mercy fall upon the Church and bring many to Himself. He will get all the glory which is due Him. And we will be humbly in awe.

  99. Hi Andrew,
    How I both sympathize and empathize with folk who cry in despair at finding a true Bible-based church! Since concluding my ministry at St John’s I have struggled. The position at present is that I attend a fellowship about five miles from my home which has a morning service, and where the teaching is reasonable, although not enough. As a Gospel preacher myself, I cannot accept those churches who believe in entertaining their congregation or who water the message down to make folk feel comfortable rather than challenged.

    My wife rarely attends at all, because she gets nothing out of the services. All we want is a church that is near enough for us to attend, and which preaches the true gospel fearless of man’s reaction but mindful of God’s command.

    The problem is that so many churches are little more than social clubs where churchgoers can go to meet their friends and convince themselves that they are ‘real Christians.’ How sad!

    In Christ,

  100. Barry Schmidt Feb 22nd 2013

    Can’t FIND a church???
    This entire question comes from a complete lack of understanding of what the church is exactly:
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. (1 Corinthians 12:13, 27 NASB)

    Western paradigms of what “church” is has so pervasively infected and skewed most believer’s perception of church that these people no longer have any clue what church is presented as in the New Testament.
    Here are some pervasive misconceptions regarding church:
    Falsehood #1. People “attend” a church but they do not BELONG to the church.
    Clearly every true believer has NO SAY in their belonging to the church. The moment they got saved they were baptized by one Spirit into the church which is his body.
    Like them or not YOU ARE MEMBERS TOGETHER of all those who belong to Jesus- you don’t get to NOT BELONG TO THEM simply because they don’t yet have the same doctrinal or practice YOUR particular slant on the Bible and Christian life is.
    The BIBLE is very clear on the ONLY excuse we have for disfellowshipping ourselves :
    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. (1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NASB)

    falsehood #2. People are free to DECIDE whether they will lay down their lives in a life long commitment of their entire lives to Gods people who live in their community.
    “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:12, 13 NASB)
    By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (1 John 2:3, 4, 6 NASB)


    Falsehood #3. I can withdraw myself from Gods ( very flawed) people because they still hold into false beliefsand because they are often decieved into believing falsehoods.
    And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (Ephesians 4:11, 13, 14 NASB)
    If everyone leaves the decieved and ignorant sheep WHO IS LEFT TO FULFILL GODS FINAL OBJECTIVE “UNTIL we the church GROWS UP!???

    GOD has a very severe and strict rebuke and warning to those who see themselves as too holy to remain committed to His (very flawed people):
    “behold you say, ‘Stay away from me because I am too Holy for you’. ‘BEHOLD’, says the LORD, ‘I will make you to lie down in torment.” Isa. !!!!

  101. Here in the South West of England we have a group of isoloted believers, mainly from Cornwall and West Devon, who cannot find a sound Church or Fellowship group. We meet together two or three times a year and have a sound speaker and fellowship together and keep in touch with one-another as much as we can.

    Sadly, Christians are increasingly compromising themselves and paddling in the ecumenical pond that is set to become the end times apostate church. Sound believers need to fellowship with one another more than ever before.

  102. Aaron Yoder Feb 22nd 2013

    Wondering about a subject that ties in with this and would welcome all thoughts.

    Can some one explain the validness or scripture that backs up church membership. So many of the churches we have participated in have demanded membership before partaking in communion etc.

  103. This is indeed what we find in many churches in America and we have visited many different kinds & flavors over the years. We have been hurt by more people in the church than in the world, even leaders! But, we forgave and moved on. That is one of the reasons why we started a home group 3-1/2 years ago, a place where every part of the body of Christ can function and contribute to the other parts. It is a place where truth is brought forth each week by various members of our group, and people cannot hide their true spiritual condition, like they can when they sit in their favorite spot on their favorite pew each Sunday. With that we have been blessed. In all fairness, there are churches that really do want to help people become free and healed in Christ and walk in their God-given purpose, but don’t know exactly how to accomplish that. There are a few who do know how, and are doing it. The Lord is moving within the church and within the home groups and in every part of this earth, and He will have His pure, sanctified bride without spot and wrinkle! I would say to all who have been hurt and have not found true anointed solid truth within the four walls of the church, to get into the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to “lead them into all truth” which He has already in the Word promised to do. If you are a truth-seeker, you will find the truth, even if all you do is sit at home in your favorite chair with His Word in your lap! Or get with your spouse or a good friend…where 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name, He has said He will be there! Men and women can let us down; we can let others down, but Jesus will never let you down. Sometimes we have “church” spontaneously in a restaurant with another couple, or in a parking lot. But even more importantly, we have learned that we are the church – the ecclesia. It’s not so much about going to church anymore; it is about being the church – the full expression of the bride of Christ here on this earth. It is about pushing back the forces of darkness and letting the Light of the Lord shine through us. Many need to get a mindset that goes far beyond the four walls of a church & simply BE the church that we are called to be, a witness that the Lord is in us and desires to work through us to reach out and touch a hurting, dying, sinful world!

  104. Neville Feb 22nd 2013

    We are warned not place ourselves under false teachers which do not preach the truth

  105. Having been out of ‘church’ for some years, one of the greatest things I have learned is that God is a jealous God and wants us for Himself. If we will focus on Him, and ignore the persecution comments of others around for not conforming, our relationship with Him will go ever deeper.

    Sadly as we climb up the mountain to be ever closer to Him, we see those who have either stopped unwilling to go further or worse still are falling back down the mountain.

    Through focus on Him and loud jubilant praise at ALL times, He truly becomes our joy, our delight, our total satisfaction, our EVERYTHING. I love Him passionately for the relationship I know have with Him. And I know there is yet more.

    And yes it was a lonely walk for a long time but now I have just one young disciple passionate to know His ways. And He has given me the nation of Malawi. Ps 2 v 8. What a glorious faithful Father.

    I pray everyone on these comments finds their total fulfillment in Him.

  106. Here is a portion of my article:

    “In the light of these apostate days and apostate churches, SHOULD true born again believers STILL go to church?

    My answer is YES! I will go on to explain why it is vital to still go to church. Although whether you should attend any specific church should be according to its own unique situation.

    Who We Should NOT Have Fellowship With?

    Before I give my reasons why we should still attend EVEN an apostate church, we first need to consider what the apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 6:7:

    “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord”

    What was he referring to?

    Let us look at the context, verses 14-16:

    “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people”

    The context was about Babylonian inspired pagan religion which was seeking to infiltrate the infant Christian church. Paul made it clear that they should be completely separate from such pagan ecumenism.

    Clearly a truly born again believer should NEVER seek fellowship/unity/ecumenism with paganism of any sort. This blog has already proved that the Roman Catholic church came into being from out of this Babylonic paganism and successfully (for hundreds of years) infiltrated the true Christian church by “Christianising” Babylonic idolatry and practices forcing the true church to go “underground”.

    So, a true believer can NEVER feel at home in such darkness and will be badly affected by such darkness if they do not come out of it.

    The NT is full of warnings about the dangers of apostasy.

    So, What is apostasy?

    Apostasy is basically a falling away from the true gospel as was first preached to the early first century church. It is a falling away from the true faith and teachings of the Bible by bringing in added extras and teaching “another Jesus” and other ways of salvation.

    So it is clear that true believers should NEVER fellowship with the Catholic church, but come out from it. It is also clear that believers and true churches should never fellowship with paganism either.

    There are many churches today (maybe the vast majority) which DO fellowship with such paganism. Some are blatant ecumenists directly – some indirectly by joining an ecumenical organisation.

    Does that mean that we should never attend ANY ecumenically (or such) linked church?

    It all depends on the circumstances. If they are seriously in fellowship with Rome or into the occult etc, then I would suggest there is nothing to be gained by joining them.


    In many cases I would suggest that we DO STILL NEED to attend their churches. I will now give my reasons.

    Why We SHOULD Still Attend Some Apostate Churches
    The apostle Paul said that in the last days that the time of the gentiles would come to an end and at the same time a falling away from THE FAITH. There will be a time when (probably culminated after the rapture) the adoption of gentiles into the olive tree would come to an end but then replaced by a mass return of Jews to the olive tree.

    Paul was called as a missionary to the gentiles. However, (as was his custom) would still go into the Jewish synagogues and preach there, despite that the vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus as their messiah and actually were “apostates” i.e., had fallen away from their relationship with the LORD. Jesus had said that they had reached a point where “their house was left desolate” and “you will not see Me again UNTIL you say ‘blessed is HE who comes in the Name of the LORD’ “.

    From that moment, the grace of God was being moved from Israel (from their apostasy) to the gentiles, YET Paul still went into the Jewish congregations to preach regularly.

    This tells me that despite the apostasy growing in our churches (in these last days) we should STILL attend these churches and preach against their apostasy by declaring the truth and exposing the darkness by preaching the light.

    God has not finished with these dead churches – NOT UNTIL THE RAPTURE, because there are some individuals (within these churches) who are NOT DEAD but are true believers.

    Only at the rapture will God have finished finally with the gentile church and return His favour on Israel and those gentiles who join themselves to Israel during the tribulation.

    Therefore, we need to still attend these apostate churches (like Paul did in those synagogues) and take every opportunity to expose the darkness and preach the truth, because there are many who need to hear our message and maybe many may still respond favourably and join us in our campaign.

    Despite this discussion, I still need to remind us that Hebrews 10: 23-25 says:

    “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching”

    In these days it is becoming increasingly difficult to fulfill these verses and obtain REAL fellowship. Therefore, we need to find other likeminded true born again believers within these apostate churches and fellowship with them in our homes.:

  107. Barry Schmidt Feb 22nd 2013

    For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45 NASB)
    The church isn’t there for YOU! It’s purpose isn’t to please and satisfy and placate your every doctrinal whim nor is it there to satisfy your particular worship style, your particular slant on practicing the Christian life.

    Finding a church that I FEEL SAFE AND COMFORTABLE AND SAFE AND FED is all indicative and typical of the SELFISH SELF CENTRED AND “lovers of self” church culture today .

    Be like Jesus FOR A CHANGE -Go and die for the church. Go and lay down your self centred life for the church . Stop whining and START TO SERVE those so called decieved and CARNEL people!!!

  108. Teshuva Feb 22nd 2013

    Aaron writes,

    Wondering about a subject that ties in with this and would welcome all thoughts.

    Can some one explain the validness or scripture that backs up church membership. So many of the churches we have participated in have demanded membership before partaking in communion etc.

    Are you not a member of His body? If so there is your membership, as you would be accepted in the Beloved. Taking communion? What is that? If you are talking about a wafer and some juice, this can be done daily at your own home. Yet again, what is communion? What does that word mean? Communion = common union between you and the Living Word within you Christ.
    Where you fellowship with Him in scripture and prayer or eat from His table.

  109. If we will study His Word, Jesus clearly said Holy Spirit would teach us. John repeated this in his first letter.

    To also encourage and inspire read some good biographies like Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, Hudson Taylor, Leonard Ravenhill. Listen on YouTube to Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, Michael Howard (type in Intercessor or Tampere after his name).

    Let’s rise up and be like Jeremiah who said, ‘His word is in my heart like a fire shut up in my bones, I am weary of holding it in, indeed I cannot’

  110. Shannah Feb 22nd 2013

    Andrew, Left the church in 2004 for many of the same reasons everyone else has or is speaking about presently. In 2011 decided to try again, and the Pastor of the church that had left in 2004 and myself had a discussion why I had left, he also was not happy was having problems with his denomination that was not helping but greedily taking every dime they could get. This Pastor left his denomination and started a home fellowship which we all enjoyed so much.
    Went to Africa last year and this is much the same problem especially the prosperity doctrine, many people walk miles to go to church and put their food money in the plate, very sad. while the Pastor gets richer they remain without even food to eat.It is a crime.
    Now am back in the states. Have been going through same process of looking for fellowship, really looking for like minded disciples, but everywhere that go they are into the world, cannot even talk about anything but worldly subjects,not true fellowship even those who really worship the Lord. There is also no depth in the Pastors sermons.
    All of this is evident that we are living in the endtimes, but we are to pray for the church, we are asked to do so. Find my greatest growth is in studying the word, worshipping and being the “Church” where ever go.

  111. Penny

    Should we read the Bible or read books of mere men? If you are saying that the Holy Spirit will teach us if we read the Bible, why do we need to detriment our study by preconditioning our minds with preconceived theology from men who ignore great chunks of scripture to enforce their own theology?

  112. Back in the 90’s I wrote a message called Church Split Syndrome. I will be reposting it soon after some additions that the Lord has shown.
    One main difficulty that hasn’t been mentioned is that a church is to have a corporate, even 5 fold, ministry in operation; read Ephesians chapters 3 and 4. We are built upon the foundation of living apostles and prophets who are humble, standing strong to hold up the building underneath as servants. So many places have just one person or group as a ministry when we all are called to fulfill our gifts in an anointed minister, (servant). Jesus asked how we can believe giving honor to one another? So often we see lifting up those in the ministry or the traditional hierarchy.
    We can only be as strong as the weakest link so Satan continues to devour those he can influence. He tries to divide us apart and keep us fighting each other instead of him. That’s what the root word of denominator (denomination) represents. We may have to still disagree on doctrines and traditions until we come into the unity of the faith and the knowledge (love) of the Son of God. This will happen through true worship in spirit and truth.
    This is another main factor that causes church splits. When people start growing up and hearing the Lord for themselves they are like a child who no longer has to be spoon fed. Later when they are educated in the basics they graduate from school and continue to grow in God’s will for them. We see this example in Acts. When they were all in one accord, fasting and praying, the Lord spoke for them to seperate or bless Paul and Barnabas to send them out for the work He called them to.
    Rather than accepting this awakening of another anointed voice, a pastor takes this as a threat to his flock. The pastors and prophets should be recognizing, raising up and working with each person who shows that they are getting stronger and wiser in the word. There is a lot of dysfunction for this reason and God has met us where we are at.
    Things are changing right now as Babylon falls and people are enlightened to the truth. I see that the Lord is bringing together small groups who will gather in a home or business to seek and serve the Living God and not a religious form that is passing away. THe underground church is being established for a reason…great persecution is coming.

  113. Andrew: Always enjoy your emails:
    As we move into the 3rd Day many will be dissatisfied with present day religion. Unfortunately we forget that the church Jesus Christ is buildning (and He is the only one that can build it) is not religion (He came and dismantled the ‘religion of His day’) but a vertical relational lifestyle. We are called to be students of the Word and to study to show ourselves approved, not of denominations or sect but of the Love of a Holy Father. Paul admonishes us to “come out from among them” and judgement begins at the church. Both are hard statements but as the Holy Ghost teaches us what true relationship means and its cost; true church becomes an everyday experience. Coming out of Catholicism, at the age of 28 experiencing being born again, filled with the Holy Ghost three years later and going through the Charismatic movement, the restoration of the prophetic movement and now the Restoration of the Apostolic..that which is first will be last and that which is last will be first…………church as usual and witnessed today is as many of your commentor’s have stated extremely lacking to say the least and void of the Jesus the Word speaks of. We bare evidence the present day church speaks of Jesus but He is nowhere to be found. “Behold I stand at the door and knock, he who OPENS……………..we must get involved. There is no power exuded as notedin the Book of Acts. Believe me Jesus has disciples everywhere having the unction within their spirits for real fellowship in every neighborhood and city. As Norvel Hayes has said……………………. “we must make ourselves available”. I noticed recommendations of authors and I would like to add to the list George Warnock, a man after the heart of God

  114. joseph Feb 22nd 2013

    Don’t give up.
    Ask the Lord where he wants you.
    Do what He says.
    Pray for the Church in your city.
    Don’t give up.

  115. Connie Feb 22nd 2013

    I so identify with the saints in the story of the article. I sooo know! Everyone seems threatened by the movement of the Spirit and they so need to keep a control over what is happening. If you are ‘lucky’ you will get to bring a word of prophecy, just as long as it doesnt say anything specific. Be sure to be just like everyone else or you will be under great suspicion. I know how it is to flow with the Spirit in the Body. It is the most wonderful thing in the world. So wonderful. How i yearn for this. I know the time is coming when the Spirit will move thru the Body and all that we see will be Him. I know the outpouring of His Spirit will be soon and many will be saved. How i have waited for this day! Come Lord Jesus!

  116. God has taken me to many churches, I recognize a Doctrine of demons when I hear it.of the hundreds or so Churches I’ve attended at least once most have fallen into the categories you mentioned then there are those who have pet verses, I attended an SDA church for a while because I prefer to observe the real Sabbath. But they seem to actually worship the Sabbath, then there are those who insist on cleaning up the WORD, saying Jesus never drank wine etc. and doing the Sadducee thing by putting fences around the commandments to make them stricter. Some churches have a strong insistence on changing God’s word to mean present mores are acceptable.

    My minimum requirement for a Church is that it either has good praise and Worship or excellent teaching. Many ‘pastors’ feel that emulating Brother Shambach is all that is needed. No thanks to screamers or small children leading the worship. So many churches just tear pages out of the Bible, as it says in Pv 30:20 “This is the way of an adulteress: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, ‘I’ve done nothing wrong.’ And some are just SO LOUD!

    I’d love to go to church- but even the ones farther away are teaching lies. Sorry, I have even tried to start up a home church but so far it isn’t what God wants. I have to be satisfied with friends or folks online for fellowship.

    I have time each day for Praise, Worship and meditation; Bible reading and prayer, but also during the day I am finding more and more to talk to Jesus about.

    I don’t go to church, but really wish I could, WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT WE LISTEN TO. Mark 4:24 24“Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.

    And the ones who get all up in your face for not exclusively reading the KJV, where’s the love there?

  117. My husband and our 3 girls completely understand all the things you all our going through. I had sensed that in the late 80’s early 90’s that the Spirit of God was grieved with the condition of the church and the direction that it was heading in. We have been to over 40 churches and have been quite saddened by the condition of the the body of Christ. At times I have been led to pray for her, but in my spirit I sense that judgement has to begin with the House of God and it’s not going to be good for the church, because she has left her first love and allowed the spirit of the world to creep in. We have chosen to do as Hebrews 4 says and strife to enter into His rest and wait upon Him. He hears our heart’s cry and will surely lead us into the Promise land and we seek Him first and His righteousness! If any brother or sister happens to know of a good fellowship in Orange County, CA please advise. We are open to continue to seek a healthy body of believers.

  118. “In These days Of Apostasy and False Christianity, Should We Still Attend Apostate Churches?”

    John Chingford, if the spirit of the message is to not uproot the tares, as Jesus warned us not to, which would necessitate us forbearing with others in immaturity, false doctrine (out of ignorance) but living holy, etc, but we should not forbear with blatant sin or teachers teaching false doctrine.

    However, there is a widely promoted belief that keeps getting propagated that Roman Catholism is the institution that we must “come out of” or that she is the great whore, etc. But that thinking is deceptive in that we keep are eyes on the barking dog, meanwhile we miss the snakes in the temple. Iow, those verses are not JUST talking about Roman Catholicism, but most of the Evangelical world, the Reformation, Lutheranism, Calvinism, denominationalism, patriotism, Jewish roots, and all the rest, including SELF. The only place that remains for us to get into is Christ – under His name alone and under His oversight and His laws.

    The problem is that many cite RC as the problem when their standing in the midst of the think they are supposed to be coming out of, yet they think they’re OK because they’ve left the Roman Catholic church.

    As the context of these verses could also point to the fleshly Israel (being Jewish to be saved, but denying that circumcision and the types and shadows of the old testament are contained within Christ), I think it would benefit your readers to explore those unclean areas that true Christians should not touch…. not just RC.

  119. Teshuva Feb 22nd 2013

    Good point Barry Schmidt!

    If we are all full of such light then why are we not in those dark places shinning the light of Christ instead of hiding the light under a bushel?

  120. Bailey, I understand your grief. Especially the part about the KJV’ers. While I appreciate the work that went into that translation, those who defend this work as something it is not, are simply ignorant of some very plain historical information. But more importantly, you nailed it – it was their spirit that bothered me. They, most, not all, did not exhibit the Spirit of Christ. The KJV seemed to become more important than that of the will or message of God.

    I would encourage you to seek out one or two more couples in your area who are at least CLOSE to what you understand to be Truth. It is dangerous to be without fellowship in person.

    Love, bro Jeff

  121. Hi John,
    Read the Bible is my short answer because He truly will teach.

    But reading inspirational stuff by true men of faith who preach from a passionate love of the Lord and preach what they have walked and experienced and have experienced revival can be very helpful and encouraging to keep us focussed on the Lord.

    If we have a discerning spirit we shall quickly see the things even with some of these great guys that doesn’t quite ring true as the Lord is revealing more and more to us all as the days get closer to His return.

    You point out that Paul went to the synagogue to preach and that we should attend the apostate church but how many pastors/leaders in the apostate church will let you preach? I’ve not yet met any – in UK.

  122. This is actual a troubling matter. The truth of the matter is that once you start to study the biblical truth about the church, you want to run as far away from the so-called churches in this world. You see how full of sin and wickedness they are. Even the idea of denomenations is sinful according to Paul in 1 Corinthians these divisions are works of the flesh. And yet people don’t really care about that as long as they attend every Sunday and “get fed”.

    The idea that there is a separation between clergy and layity in protestants and catholics is also quite disturbing. It’s what Christ warned us about in the letters to the churches in Revelations. It is what He referred to as the Nicolations, those having power over the laity (common believers). Don’t get me wrong, there are roles in the Church as Paul outlined, however, what is lacking in these worldly churches is real participation between the members. The current system of pulpit to pew is to blame for that. It is more like a university lecture than an actual meeting. Paul reveals this truth in 1 Cor 14:16 “When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” That cries out about participation of everyone, a real discussion where teaching, helping, serving occurs.

    If you want real growth between the members of the Body of Christ then we need to abandon these 1 or few minister churches and get back to the 5 fold ministry of Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Where the truth of the scriptures becomes reality, where “the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well”, where the power of the spirit is seen and edifying, where demons are cast out, where prophecy is heard on a regular basis, Where believers give to those in need in the church rather than to pay elite peoples salaries or pay down outrageous church mortgages.

    The church is real. It might be hard to find around us, but it is real. “Where 2 or more are gathered there I am”, Christ said. Believe that.

  123. the solution is to pray for the Church, I ask that God teaches us to be His true church every day. I weep for the lies and fake signs, the wrong way-convenience teaching, the itching ears doctrines, and those whose Greed has really altered and watered down the TRUTH.

  124. I have read the auto biography’s of these great men and women John. Penny is correct. The Holy Spirit ministers to each one as is needed using what He chooses.

    I love the good ole brother’s and sisters much more than most of the ones of today as their relationship was so much deeper and surrendered than of those of this day.

    The Holy Spirit showed me I can have more of Him than I ever imagined. He gave me a deep hunger and thirst for a deeper relationship through these. A passion for what Jesus did for us and a hatred of sin.

    I dont know about all the theology and I am glad as it would block out what the Holy Spirit wanted to teach me, show me or take me.

    Amen Penny.

  125. Rossouw Olivier Feb 22nd 2013

    Hi, Mnr. Storm, I love to read your e-mails. I stay in South Africa in a very small town. I gave my heart to Jesus on 3 November 2007.

    I was an ealderly in the church before that. Just after I gave my heart to Jesus I could not goiing to church any more. I stayed in church for another year, because my wife did not agreed with me to leave church.

    During meetings of the church council, I would give comments regarding to what is written in the bible. The pastor would give a an answere or comment on that but the answere is not regarding to the bible and he do not tell the whole truth.

    The bible says that it is because of a lack of knowledge that we are like waves, which are being slung around. The pastor convinced the people because they have a lack knowledge.

    After one year I left. I watch Joseph Prince on TV and rest on Sundays. Every where I come, and I start to speak about Jesus to someone, I have community. In the bible it tells us not to stay away from community under ourselfs. I understand this, that we must have community under each other, not necessaraly as a big group or as an orginised function. In most churches, the pastor speaks and everyone must sit stil and listen.

    I understand also in the bible that it is nessesary that someone speak/teach, but this is nesessary for the unbelivers.

    Many people know the Book, but not the Author, I think a lot of people think they know both, but their fruit shows the opposite.

    The bible tells us that a tree cant bear good and bad fruit.

    The bible tells us also that everytime we come toghether, everyone must bring a contribute. We must use the gifts we received, like to lay hands on people, or to anoint another with oil exacta.

    The bible tells us also that the Holy Spitit teach ua now, so I understand that we do not need a pastor to teach us. The bible als tells us that Jesus is the final Priest. In Hebrews the bible tells us that the law are now written in our hart and mind.

    PLaese escuse my english.

  126. Joy Perew Feb 22nd 2013

    Not sure what all these folks are looking for, but if you are interested in the basic, unadulterated Gospel, presented by humble men and women led by the Holy Spirit, in an atmosphere of truly loving your neighbor as yourself, try visiting your local Salvation Army Temple Corps. Most have Sunday services and other opportunites during the week. Trust me, all the people won’t look, walk, talk, or even smell like you do, but the Truth shows up there every time. No gimmicks, no alliances with superstars, just simple worship, testimonies, teaching and fellowship. Plus opportunities to serve if you want. Their motto is, “Heart to God, hand to man.” Works for me! Keep seeking God’s direction and be obedient to His lead even if it doesn’t “look like” what you “want” because He knows what you “need.”

  127. Jim McDonald Feb 22nd 2013

    Miffed in Missouri – Just found out our current church is seeking ‘spiritual gifting’ via IHOP in KC. It’s getting hard to find a charismatic church that doesn’t have IHOP ties in this region. So the search for an untainted fellowship continues.

  128. Rich Rennier Feb 22nd 2013

    I haven’t read evry comment so if this has already been said let me repeat it. If it hasn’t been said let me say it.

    The church is something YOU ARE not somewhere you go.

  129. I have been a Pastor for nearly 18 years now. I have seen the “take over” of the church by the Board, Pastor Parish Relations Committee, Elders, Steering Committee, etc… There have been salvations, repentance, and even outreach prison ministry in every church my wife and I were sent to. We have suffered by being told, “to lean my ladder upon another denomination wall” i.e. go somewhere else to preach, dismissed when salvation broke up friendships, lied against, gossipped about, pushed and shoved physically by “committee leaders”, and unsupported by denominational heads i.e. district superintendents, District Pastors, Bishops, etc..

    We have tried to start home groups but with little success. It seems many times that if someone can find one item they disagree with then they are gone. My wife and I see people looking to find something wrong with Pastors and guess what, they find it. I am not perfect, my theology is also not perfect. But one thing I know is that a spirit of division is destroying the body. Then again is this a “sifting” by the Spirit to reveal the remnant that is to be saved?

  130. You can always find a believer to have fellowship with. Where two or more are gathered…..
    In closed countries they do not have “churches” yet they have fellowship. So lets forget this Western church non-sense and find fellowship anywhere and everywhere.
    I have a huge ministry of street kids in Uganda…. 30 cities. NO RENTED CHURCHES but awesome committed CHRISTIAN STREET KIDS doing the work of the ministry. i have 30 Street Pastors and they do not do their work in churches!!!
    God is IN YOU. GOD IS IN THEM wherever they are.

  131. Gary Schell Feb 22nd 2013

    Tracy, I understand your struggle. I am not looking for a perfect church, but I am looking for a church that preaches the perfect gospel message. I am currently attending a church that has let the interpretation of the world enter into the gospel message. Last month I reassigned my position as membership deacon. During numerous meetings I would bring up concerns, “how the church is allowing false doctrines and teachings into the church”. Some examples discussed: (1). Having Freemasons serve as elders and deacons. (2). Allowing members of the church to be involved with faith based political movements, which are promoting ecumenical teachings. (3). Elders and deacons supporting Roman Catholic priests and acknowledging their works with award presentations. (4). Allowing books to be used within the church that present a false gospel. (5). unknowingly or knowingly presenting a works based salvation that is detracting from salvation in Christ alone. After one of my last meetings with the elders and deacons, I was pulled aside by an elder and instructed to stop bringing up these issues. I was told that I was causing dissension within the church. As Christians we are called to be the light of the world. However, the world is not receptive to the light and mans nature is to live in the dark. As a Christian, I can only present the truth and Jesus Christ is the only one that can change the heart. I know my local church is not the true church. The true church is all true believers in Jesus Christ. I am no longer seeking for a new church home but, I am allowing the Holy Spirit to show me God’s will for my life. By the grace of God, He has allowed me to lead two bible studies and share the simplicity of the gospel message. The church of the world will always be unrighteous and the true church will always be made righteous by the blood of Christ.

  132. Warren Ubels Feb 22nd 2013

    The problem is simple, every church I’ve ever visited or been committed to, revolves around the pastor and his agenda, ambition, power and control. Why should i as a committed Christian have to be committed to something that is not Christ centered?

  133. Mrs Hale Feb 22nd 2013

    I too am in the same boat here in Central Indiana. My small town is filled with many churches, some of which I have visited. The messages are all watered down for the masses as if people are afraid to step out for their faith.

    I know where I stand in my walk with Christ, but for my husband and my children I am in need of a solid church and good fellowship. I know God is always with me, yet I feel so alone in my faith here. This is part of the reason I have subscribed to your newsletter. It is some of the only solid truthful teaching I can find.

    Thank you for taking the time to prepare this and send it out.

  134. Robert Feb 22nd 2013

    Hi Everyone,
    I’ve run into this for about 5 years. I really think it is going to get to the point for those who really want to live for God and not have to compromise along with the Purpose Driven, Emergent, New Apostolic Reformation, and Seeker-Friendly leaders, to start fellowships in their homes.

    There are a few good churches left but you might have to drive far to get there and gas isn’t cheap anymore either.


  135. Wow…I couldn’t read all the posts, but many really good points made. We have been meeting in homes for about fifteen years and although I much prefer it to the alternative, I still find, as has been stated, that the problem lies with us. So many are looking to go to a church where they will be fed…but we are not, most of us anyway, babies. We don’t take responsibility as individuals, seek God ourselves. When we come together, esp. in a house setting, the lacks become very obvious. In the traditional setting, the barrenness in so many individuals is easier to hide. If we are seeking Him and hearing from Him, every time we see other believers we will find life in it somehow. We can’t just give up, since the scripture says plainly not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together and so much the more as we see the day approaching. My most Spirit filled times in the last two years have been in a prayer meeting of five or six people. Something always comes forth from the Lord. I still meet with the house group, and that is good, but still lacking….I just press on! No other options. I have rich times of fellowship with people that I have met that attend traditional churches….I find it all over, as I have prayed. There are seven thousand that have not bowed the knee to Bail!

  136. Hi Andrew,

    I am a New Zealander and have been to a few of your meetings in the past. But the exact same thing is happening here. The Mega churches attract the most people, they feed the flesh and attract the youth as most of them they are geared up for entertainment. Dry ice, dark theatre like church houses, flashing lights and music that does not bring the presence of the Holy Spirit. Watered down teachings with no conviction. Teens that think they are in a night club.

    The sad thing is I cannot find a biblical based church either. I have been looking for a church for so long now, I have even forgotten when I started to look. I have been to nearly every church in the city and surrounding suburbs and find the same thing. Very little presence and worship of God. Pastors who do not speak biblical truth but a watered down message.

    I have been fortunate to find an oline church where most of my teaching comes from a small church in Missouri called Bethel church. This Pastor is man who teaches the truth and will not compromise in anyway what so ever. He is not popular with what he has to say, and is not particularly liked as he speaks up and warns the church, the world where we are heading.

    To be honest when I go to these churches I want to run as far away from them, these so-called churches of this world, when you see how full of sin and wickedness they really are.


  137. Hi Penny

    I am not talking about preaching from the pulpit directly. There are many different ways of preaching our message. In group study, church magazine, one to one, confronting the church leaders personally, emails, blogs. basically in whatever way the Lord opens doors for you to do it.

    Of course the end result may be that you are shown the door – like they did with Paul, but while you have a chance use it and take from that church, with you, whoever heeds the message you give to them. In the meanwhile find these guys and fellowship with them.

  138. Have just managed to read most of the above comments which is a mission in itself! In some ways this is really encouraging, so many people are genuinely honest and it is refreshing to read, even when they have different opinions. We’ve been out of church longer than we have attended churches. I can honestly say we had some pretty self centered moments in both situations even though other times we felt led of the Lord. We’ve also met a heap of nutters in both situations. Like someone said above if you start your own church be prepared for bickering and discord when you disagree on what is truth etc. And yes even those of you who think you agree might be in for a shock, it’s easiest to agree with yourself. 🙂
    I used to say we ARE the church just like a few have said, sounds great until you think who is the centre of attention there, us or Jesus?? We are part of the body of Christ- and yes we can’t survive at all without the head who is Jesus, but we won’t function that great with missing body parts either. May we all find true fellowship in the Lord and do His will. 🙂

  139. Colleen Feb 22nd 2013

    We had the same problem of where to go to church in town after eventually leaving a group who had corrupt leadership. While we visited churches around town we could see the good and the sometimes very bad. Finally we did the only thing we could do, and that was to go where the Lord directed us to go (we had been praying since leaving the last church, where He wanted us to attend). That’s what I would advise any person to do – pray and wait for His leading – my husband got the answer and we followed that direction. The church we went to (and still are at) has had its own set of problems (Satan won’t let God’s people alone however few there may be attending), but I can see that the Lord is slowly but surely changing it.

    I remember thinking several times about how the Lord consistently went to the synagogues, and went to the Temple in Jerusalem. He never told people not to attend synagogue or the Temple even though the leadership and much of the people had gone seriously off the road. That has kept me going to church at times because I can see people are being led (and following blindly) off the track. Don’t forsake the gathering together of the people, however few of God’s people there may be in a amongt the congregation. Pray and follow His leading, he knows where he wants you to be – maybe to be an example and influence the peple there by that example, maybe to learn something else and grow – only He knows.

    Alternatively he may be moving you out to some other place which He did with the disciples through His Spirit. You’ll only know when you seek Him and get his direction.

    God bless as you pray and wait.

  140. Two words: house….church

  141. That’s great advice Colleen.

  142. Claudia Feb 22nd 2013

    Is not the Temple of God within us now?

  143. I REALLY miss not having a sound local ‘church’ to be able to regularly attend. I do believe that all Christians should be an active part of the local body of believers. The problem is that most ‘churches’ are currently so toxic that it’s actually better not to go. James-3 cursing is rampant in ‘churches’ that don’t have biblically qualified, ‘blameless’ leaders as well as sound doctrine, such as we must overcome sin to be true Christians.

    Until we hopefully soon have sound churches (hopefully there are some somewhere), it’s better to meet with a few than none at all. From my “Let Us Be ONE” prophecy part 15 of 33:
    It takes two to have fellowship. No more, but more will come. Start meeting two by twos until more follow. Meet once a week, and pray aloud. Strengthen yourselves, and go to the nations. They will see your light and be glad. But first, start at home. Build yourself a base, a core of believers who know Me from the bottom of their heart.
    You will see great things happen in your midst, and it will be fun, exciting to watch Me work in you to others. Let them see your light. Let it shine. Let it be bold. Don’t hold back. Live a life of love. Show others you care. Give them time, but don’t give into their ways. Let them be free, conquering their sin when they are ready.

  144. I’ve read almost all the posts to this point. My experience was somewhat different than most because I was lead out of the “traditional church” about 20 years ago. I didn’t really know why. I wasn’t offended or hurt. I wasn’t aware of the many problems or issues that so many recognize today.

    I presumed at the time that it was a personal issue. Something that I had to go through in preparation for what God wanted from me. I had heard so many messages about the wilderness experience that I assumed that this was my “wilderness experience”.

    The problem came to light when I attempted to re-enter the church and I couldn’t find a church to attend. It was hard to understand. It was hard on my family. It didn’t make sense to us in the way we had understood traditional teaching about assembling together. We struggled with where we were and if there would ever be an answer. This lasted for about the first five years. Church wasn’t working for us as it had before and we couldn’t make sense of it.

    We clung to God and to each other but at heart my wife struggled immensely and I had no answer but to dig deeper into study and into God’s word. The breakthrough in understanding started in the late 90’s with a revelation of the errors of political activism for christians. This was the first real clear area that started to make sense for me as to how the “church” had misunderstood it’s role in the world and the inevitable compromise with sin that accompanies it.

    How could you embrace politics and not embrace sin? It is impossible. Clinton lies, Bush lies, Obama lies. Politicians lie!! The media lies!! Politics is compromise and lies christian!! Wake up!! The church was never meant to be complicit with lies in any fashion. You will either be complicit in their lies or a victim of their lies but you will be tainted rest assured. I’m not gonna risk my eternity with Jesus Christ and play the sucker for some politician or political agenda.

    The church’s compromise with known and public sin, devoid of repentance, was the real issue that was coming through to me loud and clear. The traditional church has been compromised. Sin has become an acceptable practice for christians. This is the principle of leaven. When the church accepts or endorses sin, any sin, in the life of any believer and that sin doesn’t threaten the eternal destiny of that believer, the church has misrepresented the gospel, changed the very definition of a christian and the basis of christian fellowship. It sets in motion a process that will inevitably spread to a compromise with sin within the whole group. They become “puffed up” or arrogant which in a nutshell is expressed like this, “you can practice sin and still be saved”. Sin is no threat to your eternal destiny.

    When I endorse and accept you as a christian, even though you practice known sin, then I open the door for anyone, even myself, to fall prey to the practice of sin, thinking that I will still be saved. That’s the leaven. That sin is not a basis of rejection by God for a believer even though the Bible teaches in 1 Cor 5,6 that excommunication from the church is to be enforced because of the future exclusion from God’s kingdom. This is the keys of the kingdom, “What you bind on earth has already been bound in heaven”. The church is to enforce what God’s kingdom enforces. You kick the open practitioner of sin out of the church because they will not inherit the kingdom of God as a result of practicing sin. In our day, church discipline is non-existent which should tell you how bad things have gotten in the church. They don’t acknowledge the danger of sin to a believer’s eternal destiny, a sure sign of leaven.

    An example in our town was a “spirit filled” church where a member of the worship team was living with another woman though not married. He was told he would not be allowed to participate on the worship team anymore. He was not kicked out of the church for fornication. He was allowed to continue to attend and fellowship within the church. This is how we leaven the church. We discourage sin but it isn’t really that big a deal as far as your eternity is concerned. You can still be a christian in spite of your unrepentant sin. WRONG, the Bible says that fornicators and adulterers God will judge. You must repent.

    What this is about is the church’s relationship to sin and it’s relationship to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t give any place for sin. None. The church at large is preaching another gospel, a gospel that doesn’t save you from sin but saves you in your sin. It is a lie. There is forgiveness through repentance but there is no forgiveness if you don’t repent and that means you inevitably have to stop sinning. Repentance means stop sinning, it doesn’t mean just say you’re sorry and keep sinning. Lawlessness, not legalism, has conquered the traditional American church (Alphafaith) and NOW, comes the really hard to accept word that tells us how leaven has permeated the church.

    I am 56 years old and the traditional church had been conquered by leaven before I was even born. Most of us who were born into a church family were born into a leavened church situation. How can that be???

    Divorce and re-marriage. Luke 16:18. Divorce and re-marriage is adultery per Jesus Christ and that’s good enough for me, how about you? He’s God isn’t He? He ought to know. Adultery is a sin and the church has compromised with adultery and that has helped open the door to the “salvation in sin” doctrine that is so prevalent today which has also contributed to the present day onslaught of homosexuality on society and inevitably the church. Homosexuality is conquering and will conquer the traditional churches of our day, be sure my friend. They will not keep it out, the true believers will have to come out of the institutional non-profit churches.

    This is where I started and what I have come to understand, you have to come out. You will have to come out. The church is leavened, compromised with sin. If you can’t see it now just wait, you will. They won’t stand against sin anymore, no matter if they speak against certain sins, the game is already given up through adultery in the church and it won’t be fixed. No way will adultery be purged from the church, they will just kick you out, you goofy fanatic.

    This is the choice we all must make, will we follow Jesus? Will we believe Him? Will we trust His word and His word alone? Or will we put our trust in men?

    “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Mk 8:38

    23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
    24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’
    26Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ Luke 13:23-27

  145. Hi again John,

    Agreed. That is precisely what I do – the coffee time after the service is by far the best time!

    However, while I grew to that deeper relationship with the Lord I was very much alone and the biographies and teachings of others who preached from experience rather than head knowledge were a great encouragement. It was that that I was putting forward to the many who are saying they don’t know where to turn.

    Now after that deeper relationship with Him, He has clearly shown me His will for me which as I’ve said is discipling here in the UK and working 3 months a year in villages in Malawi teaching His word. What a God!

    God bless you.

  146. William Feb 22nd 2013

    Another great article Andrew, I can relate to this a lot as I stopped fellowshipping at a local church, that was one of those “wonderful plan” church, where they would invite unbelievers up to the altar to “make a decison” for Christ, when sin, repentance and judgement were not preached before hand, laying the foundation of Gods Law so that the Good News would actually be good news. No, they preached a wonderful plan, wonderful journey and of course peace and prosperity.

    It is when I shared an article I was inspired to write on early morning around 3am, ( could not go to sleep till I got up and wrote it), about my thoughts on altar calls, or should I say thoughts on how this church was approaching the altar call. The pastors were not happy to say the least. Many have stopped talking with me. I can really relate to the story Tracy shared in Andrews original article.

    I think God is very displeased at what is going on in modern churches. I now ocassionally get together with a few brothers (who also left the church), and are very like minded and agree that things are very wrong, at least in the American “church”

    Grace be to you all!!!

  147. Alison Feb 22nd 2013

    This is also a problem in New Zealand. I believe one of the causes is the lack of proper discipleship and mentoring. Too many people do not see the need to engage in a life group/ cell group/small group mid week and their only time of fellowship with other Christians is on a Sunday in Church. So hypocrisy and apostasy has overtaken and become the ‘norm’.

    I have been in Churches where a small group are in ‘control’ and are not seeking God for His direction. I have been to others that operate as a social club…. etc etc.

    However I currently attend Ingestre Street Bible Church in Wanganui and my experience there is one where this is a Church that operates closer to anything else I have found to the Acts 2 Church. Sure as with any church there are some faults but that is because we are all human and are on the journey to complete sanctification that we will not obtain until we are promoted to Glory.

    For those who are unhappy with the Church/Churhes you have been attending can I encourage you to continue looking. Remember Hebrews 10:24,25.

    We are not just to be looking to be fed but also need to show the way and carry the ‘Christ light’ to those who are not as far on the journey as we are.

  148. Regine Cope Feb 22nd 2013

    We have been out of a mainstream church for around ten years now. We have been to quite a few smaller church groups since, some of which fell apart. Our last church group was a house church which was now two years ago. I too like many of your responders just can’t find a place to settle. I Thank God for the internet and sites Like Sermon Index. Our kids are all grown up and I encourage all of them to Seek God’s way for their life. It works for us. God opens doors and he closes them. We have to build ourselves up. It’s tough sometimes. You just want to settle somewhere and something changes. Fortunately God doesn’t. Sites like yours and storm harvest, etc keep us informed but even in those I notice there is a drought. Its everywhere.
    We are encouraged to persist and trust in these difficult times. Paul warns us that it will not be easy and we’ve had it easy for so long now. I Wish God’s courage and strength to all out there in this position. It will be worth it.

  149. For Tracy – The is so much emptiness in modern day churches. It is like the attendees have never past pablum.
    When a believer begins to obey God’s word, (His truth), God gives more of His Spirit to that believer. When we acknowledge Him, He also directs our paths to Him and His Son, Yahushua. Follow His Commands and not the traditions of man and you might find yourself in a fellowship that actually believes that God is serious about our keeping His Commandments, all 13 of them. Maybe we will see you next Sabbath (Saturday that is). Shalom!
    Yahushua is Yahuwah! HalleluYah!!

  150. F. McMillan Feb 22nd 2013

    We left the church in the mid-80’s after hearing Milt Green’s Great Falling Away Today message and cannot be a part of it again. We did visit a church for a few months once, but soon found blatant false teaching there, too. A half-truth is a lie and Satan is the father of lies. We must remember what scripture says about how very narrow the way is. We meet every few weeks with a small handful of people.

  151. Richard Savage Feb 22nd 2013

    I hadn’t expected to find this subject, contentious as it is, addressed on Revival School! Having been called out of church twenty years ago, you’ll understand I have some opinions here.

    Church, the called out, ekklasia, is not a NT phenomena. Begin with Noah and read through to the end of Revelation. There’s a complete picture for us, what it means to be called out by our Heavenly Father. Called out to be called into. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the institutional functions which, for monetary and power reasons at the least, call themselves church. It has nothing to do with highly paid preachers and demi-gods, popes, cardinals or archbishops. Nothing to do with coercion to sit at the feet of preachers/teachers who wilfully lead their flock astray.

    One poster here, a regular, berates us so heavily for being out of church. Amazingly, someone supported him! I tell you, as a shepherd of real sheep, use that tone of voice and they scatter, preferring wolves to the shepherd. Sheep, like lemmings, are suicidal creatures. And people …?

    So very many people, me included, have prayed for revival for so many years without seeing. Seeing what?

    That revival, the fulfilment of Wigglesworth’s 1947 prophesy, is happening NOW! It’s been around us for thirty years. The word and the spirit have come together. Not in churches; not in house fellowships, but with the millions of us who have been lead away by Jesus, the millions who could not conscience a further insult to their Saviour. Just read the testimonies above. A deep walk … I didn’t know this was possible when I was in church (that’s me), and much more. Just scroll up and read.

    Yes, and yes, that revival is taking place now; one here, one there, disconnected for the moment, but not forever. The Body is going underground, as in China. It’s been happening for years, but the institutions have happily turned a blind eye while the bucks rolled in.

    Few in the institutional church have allowed this move away from them has been a movement of the Holy Spirit among faithful souls. That so many people have not, of themselves, rejected church, but had church rejected in them. What does that tell us?

    It says this: church as we knew it is finished! Church as we are, the Body, is very much alive an well and being revived.

    Apart from the remnant who are required to remain as witnesses in the institutional church, for the most part it is finished. A shell of what was, not even a vision of what it could have been. The Body is, and always was, free of all restrictions when it walks hand in hand with the Holy Spirit.

    But a note of caution here. If you left the church for reasons other than severely troubled conscience, or like me, audibly called out, then go back and await the perfect will of the Lord Jesus for you. Perhaps you are a part of the remnant, the people by whom He will judge the churches.

    If you are truly called out, be assured you are also called into. No no-man’s land!

    On a different, but very similar note: I’m project managing the building of a social website for out of church Christians. It isn’t given it should be a fellowship, or a replacement for church, just a place for OOC Christians world wide to meet, talk, share and give glory to Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.

    If anyone is interested, post here and I’ll post an email address where I can say a little more. Look forward to hearing from you.

  152. Pauleen Feb 22nd 2013

    My best advice is the Family Worship Center on line http://www.jsm.org/
    They teach the atoning blood of Jesus for the remission of sins and the way of the cross walking by faith to be sanctified by faith. The best old school teaching you’ll find anywhere around! God bless

  153. Bob Manditch Feb 23rd 2013

    Hi Andrew,
    One of the main reasons true believing folk find it difficult to “be of one mind and to live in peace” (2 Cor. 12:13) with other so called believers is – size!
    The larger a congregation becomes, the more “organized” it has to be to fit in with the majority, resulting in compromises.
    More funds are required to finance this structure, and more appealing it has to become; to attract new converts.
    The focus then shifts from the great commission that Jesus laid down for us to follow (Matthew 28: 19-20 & Mark 16: 15-20), to the Church organization with its team of pastoral administrators and team leaders.
    People become busy about church business rather than God’s business.
    Policies replace scriptural directives and being nice and acceptable replaces genuineness (2 Cor 1:12 & 2 Cor 11:3). How can the Holy Spirit be expected to move in these circumstances?
    The Chinese underground church movement gives a great example of how effective God fearing fellowships can operate. There are hundreds of millions of Chinese believers who meet in small numbers in homes so as not to be detected by the authorities who would wish to monitor and control them.
    These believing folk are focused on taking the salvation message into areas which could mean persecution and even death to themselves. They don’t believe in large organized structures which are costly and are easily detected. If you have had the chance to read the inspiring 2003 publication “Back to Jerusalem – Three Chinese Church Leaders” with Paul Hattaway (ISBN 1-903689-03-1), you will know what I mean.
    For those who are “out of church” Christians – take heart in knowing that you are part of the Body of Christ, which is world-wide, past, present and future. (1 Pet 5:7-10)
    Don’t be anxious, God will find you a home.
    God bless,
    Bob Manditch.

  154. be blessed peoples of the LORD……………..
    I say let us pray as one likeminded group
    for the LORD to reveal where he would have us to be.
    HIS will.
    I had a dream about four years ago.
    In it i was digging a tunnel upwards , i kept digging until
    i cameto a upper room. Wherein where all members of my spirtual family. which is the only family.
    I noticed chaos, and disorder in the world. I then knew danger was coming. A man had approached me………….and I tried to warn him, i told him we must hurry and flee into the wilderness,
    and i will NEVER forget what that man said.
    HIS whole face changed as though he told all truth.
    and HE simply told me………….THE CHURCH is ALREADY in the wilderness. I woke up. i dont understand the dream.
    BUT i have NEVER forgotten HOW the man changed and seemed to be filled with truth. and simply Told me
    very plainely, very calmly……….THE CHURCH is ALREADY in the wilderness.
    Does anyone here have the understanding of this ?

  155. Thank you Andrew for bringing up this subject. I have been struggling with “church” all my life. I grew up a preachers kid and got to see all the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Very nasty, very personal, very ungodly. My conclusion was that if this is what church is like then you can have it.
    Started back when I had kids of my own but have never felt right. I have a hard time giving money to an organization when I know that most of it is going to a big mortgage, utility bills, insurance, and salaries. The church I recently attended for a while bragged about how they tithed 10% of the offerings to God’s work. The other 90% went to overhead. Same with the programs. 90% were self-focused for the benefit of the members. 10% were designed to reach the lost. I thought maybe it was just me expecting too much but having read all the comments here I can see that I am not alone.
    I now put my offerings in a separate checking account and give directly to God’s work, bypassing the 90% skim off the top. The modern church seems to be nothing more than a social club whose goal is to “grow”. Not by saving lost souls but by enticing members from “competing” churches with better programs and entertainment.
    Sound doctrine has been replaced with pop-psychology and self-improvement. I’m hoping to find the exception but so far I haven’t had much luck.

  156. wineskin Feb 23rd 2013

    Finding yourself a different church, or ministry, or pastor—or even another denomination—to satisfy your needs doesn’t work and here’s why….

    The WHOLE LOAF has become totally leavened (full of hot air and non-nourishing) and this mysterious outcome is why so many modern day “Christians” are like aimlessly wandering widows and orphans looking for a home…they have taken on a glorious name for themselves but they’ve failed to recognize, trust and follow their glorious namesake…they have strayed and have busied themselves trying to serve other masters.

    I see a few Christians here who have finally figured this out. Most of you haven’t.

    Your Christianity can not heal what is ailing you it for it is helplessly sick within itself. Christ holds everything you are looking for so get your focus back on your first love and enjoy the freedom He promised to those who follow Him, and Him alone. 🙂

  157. 2nd Cor. 6:16-18

    “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them
    And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” Therefore “Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters,
    Says the Lord Almighty.”

  158. If anybody needs a great biblical church in Sacramento, ca. I can firmly recommend Capital City Church International .
    Ask for Robin ..I’ll introduce you to the about 100 saints.

  159. Shirleane Abbott Feb 23rd 2013

    Perhaps churches are our mission field, outside people are starved for truth and soak it up, inside church people are sometimes like the frogs sitting in slowly heating water-they see no need to move, to thirst, to hunger after righteousness, to “taste” and “see”, in Revelations, the Lord spews the “luke-warm” church out, we are called on to entreat and build up believers in this way (I believe) in addition to the harvest (outside of church). Praying for the Body of Christ for who is to say “I have no need of you.” blessings : )

  160. Margaret Newcombe Feb 23rd 2013

    In the 70’s when I was born again, I had a lot of teachers to draw on who taught about various aspects of end times including the formation of the World Government church, and something called ‘the falling away’. I found myself continually ‘sitting under’ leaders who were caught out in adultery or a version of immorality . Finally I decided to leave and get to the root of the issues in my own life and found many new apostolic teachers via dvd,cd manuals books.( ‘Great will be the women publishers’, was a word given to me when I was saved). I am now in a place after many years where I will be able to go the church and be ready to give from the ‘honey from the Rock’ which I have found in my wilderness experience.It is important to not be passive or rebellious as a follower of Jesus. I am not afraid any longer of leaders who say women should not teach . If a woman has a gift of teaching and is not encouraged to use it she will a) die in the wilderness b) leave the institutional abuse system of the ‘Church’….this one woman will not die needlessly thank you, I will not be wasted any longer. I have learned to hear the still quiet voice and I have renounced all to follow Him. If He says go and give your life in this or that assembly I will go. I am getting ready….I am not going to lead anyone into the harlotry of my childhood church system.

  161. Thankfully, I don’t have the problems most people commenting do. I attend a small Calvary Chapel where the pastor is whole-heartedly dedicated to teaching the Word of God chapter by chapter, verse by verse. However, if I weren’t part of this church of 40 members – I have no idea of where I would go.

    It just seems to me that if pastors would teach chapter by chapter, verse by verse – and taught EVERYTHING in the Bibl in the same balance and same proportion that God put it in there – it would solve so many problems. Abberant prosperity teachings, domionist teachings, hyper over-the-top charismania, ect would dissolve away as people started to realize that what they hold so dear really isn’t mentioned all that much in the Bible.

    For the pastors who wrote about trying to find good Christian members – why not just teach the whole Bible. Whether that would be verse by verse, or covering one chapter a week or whatever – set up a system where the whole council of God is the highest priority. It has been my observation that when the Spirit of God moves strongly when the Word of God is taught.

  162. The G-d of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob is sorting out the Bride for the Lamb Who was slain; and that Bride is NOT necessarily the concept we have in our heads of the formal, organized church or any religious order, or any particular denomination. That Bride is composed of those who “keep G-d’s commandments”; those who keep the Feast Days of the Lord in remembrance;

    Exodus 23:14 “Three times a year you are to celebrate a festival to me.

    Exodus 34:23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.

    Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times a year all your men must appear before the LORD your God at the place he will choose:
    i) the Feast of Unleavened Bread,
    ii) the Feast of Weeks and
    iii) the Feast of Tabernacles.
    No man should appear before the LORD empty-handed;..”.

    NOTE: Scripture does NOT say you should gather 52 times; the ONLY demand is “choose life” and “keep MY commandments”.

    Stop with the guilt of not attending church 52 times a year, plus. It isn’t one of G-d’s commandments. What is scriptural is: “gather before Him 3X/year”; “don’t forget to assemble yourselves together”; “where 2 or 3 of you are gathered together, there in the midst of you” is the Lord.

  163. @Richard Savage….I agree, it is happening, in ones and twos and groups all over. You won’t read about it in the paper, but God is moving, under the radar, underground, outside the camp…..

  164. JCBuck Feb 23rd 2013

    I agree with the flock, I have yet in my 15 years as a born again believer come close to finding more than the three people that I can fellowship with.. Got ran out of every church in the early days for having gifts, and even trying to function in them!! If you do find one to go to, I can assure you that you will be poisoned in some way or another. The Scripture that always comes to mind is ” If there is a LITTLE leaven in the loaf, then the WHOLE loaf is leavened”. Even a little error will lead to more and more over time. If there is one pastor leading everyone, you are already in trouble as this has no scriptural basis. I am done with it all, I have a job to do in protecting my wife, children and granddaughter and a church is the last place that can help them, only second to a nightclub. Good luck in finding somewhere or someone to fellowship with..

  165. I agree with this article,, called out of church over ten years ago.Led by His Spirit and have had some amazing God experiences.Have been knocked by people who say you must go to church and have fellowship. Well I have an answer for them,” I am fellowship right now”
    They don’t get it. I would rather be obedient to God than play the game to please a group of people. Its about your heart condition.Don’t feel guilty I did for a long time,isn’t it about a personal relationship with Jesus.Roll on revival of individuals and nations.
    Tasmania, Australia.

  166. My husband & I were told to leave the last church we were in,
    about 10 years ago, by the Lord. And we were not to go back at all. Many, seem to not see this for what it is. This is a work of the Lord God Almighty. He is telling those who truly love and obey Him, to come out from among them and be ye Holy, as He is Holy. We went to church for 30 years before He called us out.
    These 10 years without much fellowship at all, has been hard. But we do not miss the mess we lift behind. Instead, it has made us did deeper into the deeper things of the Lord. I prayed for a true sister to fellowship with for a long time. Though we only fellowship by email and praying together for an hour, or two, on the phone each week, I so thank the Lord for Lord her.
    The Lord gave me a dream this last, that showed me His outpouring is on the way. Two days later He gave me my sweet sister a dream, where people were running into her home to tell her, The Holy Ghost is coming, The Holy Ghost is coming, Shouting, Dancing, and Praising Jesus name. This means it is very close. So Look Up, His Redemtion Draweth Nigh. Hallelujah!!!!!

  167. Marc Wildman Feb 23rd 2013

    The one element that makes me sad, and I am sure someone may have touched on this? I have discerned a very notable immoral force taking over in the church at large that appears to have proliferated over time. It’s this detachment we have betwixt believers. And come what may, the personal touch, the deep caring one for another, the readiness to share, take a veritable interest in the person next to us, the tender-hearted remarkable spirit we read about in Acts? We don’t see this any longer, as a ‘me-me’ gospel seems to have taken over. I think Jesus notwithstanding, asked us to take it a degree further, to consider others better than ourselves, conceivably even lay down one’s life for his brother or sister.

    This once prevailing, amalgamating organism or heart orientation is absent. It brings to mind; one of those registry files on my PC that has been inadvertently or even premeditatedly lost resulting in an error message. In the Church, we seem to have all the answers but perhaps have forgotten the primary question? The software is corrupted or rather we have corrupted His message and original mission statement. The Church is presently under God’s perspicacity and in time, we may be forced to begin again.

  168. Be blessed and praise the LORD.
    It seems like the mass majority can see the massive falling away.
    And it is in some of us still to have the fellowship.
    As it should still be. The early apostels had the more sure word of prophecy………………..and there are still many members
    that need teaching .
    I believe where two or more are gathered…………..THERE HE IS.
    and i also believe it good to have fellowship with other likeminded believers. IT is simple. Begin anew in just the bible.
    Stay only in the bible. Be agreed that all will read it in whole.
    So many still will bring mens doctrines into meetings as truth.
    Show them in the bible………..and if one knows the bible
    and is well learned , he can teach with patience and longsuffering.
    We must , for those who were once in churches, they must
    understand that they may unknowingly still cling to a false teaching. THUS they must begin anew, ONLY in the bible.
    With a heart for GOD, just to learn and know of Him.
    IN the beginning , understand, that some will still hold to
    wrong prophecies or teachings. Keep working on them,
    and expouding the rightly divided word.
    IF one comes and truly wants to KNOW of GOD
    they will hear. BUt if they want the show……………..they will not hear. A humble servants heart. I believe for those who
    truly want to KNOW of GOD and have a LOVE of truth……
    they will be humbled to hear . BUT PRIDE is a killer.
    With the HOLY SPirit as our GUIDE, and
    Great love of the TRUTH and the brethren……………..
    this is POSSIBLE. And i aint giving up on finding fellowship with others. I was not raised in any church.
    At 34, one day i was convicted and turned around completely,
    and put ONLY in the bible. NO other help books, no other mens notes…………JUST the bible. AND now i see very clearly
    this was FOR MY GOOD , and to share with others.
    MANY, falsehoods have been taught. many false concepts.
    all the way from right wing nationlism…………..to left wing new age………and all in between………………infecting churches.
    OURKINGDOM is not of this world………………..and our weappons
    NOT carnal. WE must go back to only bible reading,
    test this. Read only the bible for even a few months,
    nothing else, and pray for understanding. You will see
    the simplicity which is in Christ……………and you will stay
    far from mens many doctrines. As they are burned out through the TRUE knowledge of GOds Holy word.
    DO we want the early church………….
    THEN READ ONLY what they said…………………and read
    the HOLY scriptures as GOD said.
    VERY SIMPLE. very easy. Be blessed lambs of the LORD.
    TEST all things, prove all things……….HOLD fast to that which is good. abstain from all appearance of evil.

  169. David Marsh Feb 23rd 2013

    All of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    In 1947, the Lord foretold, through Smith Wigglesworth, the exact sequence of steps he was going to take to bring forth the end time Remnant church – Bride of Christ.

    The Bride of Christ has also been called the Elijah Company, Gideon’s army and so forth but many are aware that God is going to bring forth this company of Christians – who will be empowered with a double portion of the Holy Spirit.

    Now, what does this have to do with the current topic, my friends ? I say EVERYTHING !!!

    Through Wigglesworth’s 1947 prophecy, God said;

    “During the next few decades there will be two distinct moves of the Holy Spirit across the church in Great Britain. The first move will affect every church that is open to receive it, and will be characterized by a restoration of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
    “The second move of the Holy Spirit will result in people leaving historic churches and planting new churches.
    “In the duration of each of these moves, the people who are involved will say, ‘This is the great revival.’ But the Lord says, ‘No, neither is this the great revival but both are steps towards it.’
    (AND THEN)
    “When the new church phase is on the wane, there will be evidenced in the churches something that has not been seen before: a coming together of those with an emphasis on the Word and those with an emphasis on the Spirit.”

    – Notice the sequence of events throughout the prophecy. The 1st move of the Spirit was the re introduction of the gifts of the Spirit – this occurred around about 1960 with the introduction of the Charismatic movement- world wide.

    The 2nd move of the Spirit began in the early 1990’s with the explosion of the House church movement – world wide

    Interestingly, God has put it on the hearts of the House church members that they want to rediscover the N.T. ekklesia house church.
    But God has kept them from that discovery, for a time, so that they could both heal and cleanse themselves from the old institutional baggage.

    But now is the time whereby the house church movement is on the wane. Every house church ‘style’ has failed them. And they are now desperate to find that which they have always been looking for.
    The actual blue print of what the House church really looks like. And how it is structured. And how it actually functions. because if you have the understanding, God’s Holy Spirit involvement will never disappoint.

    There is now being introduced into the House churches ‘something that has not been seen before’ and if you are willing to take a look – it is the an ’emphasis on the Word’ that reveals the exact picture of what the N.T. house church really looks like. And how one functions in it.

    This emphasis on the Word took 10 years of intensive prayer and research. It is called The APOSTLES’ Handbook; A Detailed Instruction Manual on How to Walk with Jesus in the Supernatural Realm of His Holy Spirit.

    The work is a first of its kind in well over 1,700 years.
    And explains exactly what the sub title claims. The last chapter also reveals the N.T. house church ekklesia and how it runs.

    I will offer a free pdf file of the book one more time to anyone who wants to read its contents.

    Just email me – [email protected] – and I will be happy to send you a copy of the research.

    God bless you all,

    David Marsh.

    P.S. – ” When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed the world, has ever seen.”

    God is raising up a modern day N.T. ekklesia house church who will know what to do with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes ( very soon now). And they will become the Bride of Christ – led by her Groomsman throughout the world – in the Power of the Spirit.

  170. Barry Schmidt Feb 23rd 2013

    Loved your comment Val thank you!
    I am saddened by so many who such small confidence in Jesus ability to keep His people pure, under the Old Covenant this was the case. The message was SEPARATION FROM DEFILEMENT BY SEPARATION FROM UNHOLY PEOPLE AND THINGS.. If you touched something or someone under the Old Covenant YOU BECAME DEFILED.
    Under the New Covenant the message is NOT separation but INFILTRATION. Under the New when Jesus touched the unclean and the defiled and the unholy THEY BECAME HOLY.
    So many posters on this site are still operating under the old way. The NEW WAY in Jesus is that we don’t become defiled, discouraged or assimilated by associating with unclean and carnal Christians- RATHER WE MAKE THEM CLEAN, we make them pure, we make them on fire for God. greater is He who is in US than he who is in the world!
    It saddens me also to hear that so many don’t get that Jesus died to BRING US INTO RELATIONSHIP WITH HIMSELF AND HIS PEOPLE! Relationship with the church is not just another thing we Christians do on the way to attaining some other goal or objective.
    How is it possible to lay down ones life in sacrificial relationships with gods’ imperfect people without experiential pain, rejection, ridicule, misunderstanding and other painful trials????
    Are we really THAT foolish to believe Jesus is calling us all into relationship WITHOUT PAIN AND SUFFERING INVOLVED???
    There can be no salvation without relationships with Gods people.
    There can be no relationships without love.
    There can be no love without pain and suffering!
    It time to grow up church- and stop running away from church -Run away from church and run away from Jesus. Jesus is still in His church1 even with all its problems.

    And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22, 23 NASB)

  171. TO all lambs Who love the LORD, and desire to have fellowship…….Never give up. I love you all. And i pray for us all.
    Let us cling to OUR LORD and Savoir and be ready
    to do all for the sake of others.
    Love all, forgive all, and pray for souls to be won to CHRIST.
    THe early church is not gone,
    SHE is alive……………..and in the hearts of those WHO love the TRUTH of OUR LORD.
    Share with others and warn, rebuke, encourage , just do
    all because of the Love of Christ within us………….desiring
    none to perish. Keep all affections above……………
    be watching…………………….for the coming of our LORD draws
    ever nigh. HAVE hope in HIM, endure faithful till the end.
    and PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME………………….All glory to the LORD amen.

  172. jim manter Feb 23rd 2013

    oh man i thought i was alone in this it truly is sad i have been checking out churches in columbus ohio been to small and large ones all seem to be more interested in entertaining with programs programs programs flashing lights have yet to see alter calls or preaching from the pulpit for a call to repentance seek god what is going on out there it seems to be truly freightening the trend that is taking place is of the more people in the building the more money thats coming in churches are in to this sheep stealing and to HELL the world can go, satan has got us right where he wants us ASLEEP has the church become social clubs run like a business? im scared folks judgement starts in the house of god doesnt it???

  173. David Marsh Feb 23rd 2013

    Yes, God IS creating a famine of His Spirit in the institutional ‘historical’ churches.

    There is no doubt that God intends to raise up again the New Testament church again.
    Because the early church (Book of Acts) functioned in the Presence and Power of His (Christ’s) Spirit;

    1 Corinthians 12:7-12
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

    Surely, anything less would be a waste of time.

    God bless

    David Marsh.

  174. David Marsh Feb 23rd 2013

    The dissatisfaction in every member comes from not having the reality of Jesus Presence.

    It is not about ‘performance’ by the way – which the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches fell into.
    It is all about knowing Jesus – and knowing what He wants us to do – in the service of others.
    It is knowing Him and being led by Him to do His will – for the benefit of others.

    David Marsh.

  175. Marilyn Crow Feb 23rd 2013

    How encouraging it ha been to read over 100 comments from brothers & sisters in Christ. I can`t see your faces but I can hear your hearts. Go to a public meeting put on by a religious organisation & you can see the faces but hardly ever hear their hearts!!!!!

    My husband Trevor & myself have helped in a variety of religious organisations & met some precious people of God. But the bottom line for me became – obedience to Christ`s command –
    `Go make disciples…..`

    I realised that my time, energy & focus needed to be drawing from the Lord to go out & disciple. Thus I was so pleased to read of your comments, Jan Synder & Penny about discipling.

    From some of the comments it seems many people have left the `system,` but the `systems thinking,` needs time to get out of us. Eventually after seeking something for ourselves, we hopefully learn to humble ourselves & go make disciples, for that is where the joy is found.

    As the Apostle Paul says to his disciples in Thessalonia,-
    `For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
    For you are our glory & joy.` (1 Thess. 2: 19 & 20)

    Let`s be a `mother, father,` to them. Give of ourselves & it will come back in great abundance.

    Richard Savage.

    Yes, I would like your e-mail, to discuss further. Thank you for the offer. Marilyn.

  176. LuAnn Mattes Feb 23rd 2013

    In responce to the can`t find a church . I have had this exsepiance . I have been to many cities here in the good ole usa . And for the most part . the reasons i don`t go to some of these churches is this . 1 you must dress in a certain way that suites the people that go to that church weather or not you can afford the cloths they want ya to ware ? Now if you ware cloths that cover you . why should there be any questions ? 2 the church i believe is devided from the ones that have good jobs and thoughs that don`t ? i have been to churches here in pennsylvaina where i live . And have expeianced they pastor of that church having a affair out side his marraige ? while his wife was having a affair with the worship team member ? and let me tell ya that kinda thing ran ramped through that church and carried over to another family and they started having affair out side there marriage and so one . 3 when the pastor is caught stealing from his own churc members its really bad ! its been time to leave that church and move on to a better one right ? of corse they don`t get no better ? its a shame and disgusting to not have a place of God . and the people in that church can`t be trusted ? oh but the messages was always good to tickle your ears and then see what they do . wow what a difference . And i have had that same pastor tell me do as i say not as i do ? Interesting isen`t it ! in fact that church is almost closed now due to lack of attenance ? Most churches across this nation is alot like this one . Different circomstances but pretty mush the same . Now i do believe there is lots of different kinds of people in the churches today . None is perfect i know that , its in the fruits of that church people should be watching out for . If they sow evil they will recieve eveil you see . If they sow the love of God then they will reap the blessings of God . Do you understand what i`m saying ?

  177. LuAnn Mattes Feb 23rd 2013

    and in these churches most will not let you protisapate in the choir or any other part of the church . they surely don`t let the lord flow through some of these churches whitch cause form a dead church ? It`s like only family members are allowed to be part of . Oh and if your hair is outt place they loook down on you and avoid ya like the pleque ? I have seen people gome to these churches in desperate need and be turned away . Just because they was dressed in blue jeans & t shirt ? now think for a minute . if jesus him self came to them churches dressed in his white garments & sandles he wouldn`t be allowed in that church him self . sad but true ! and these days its like the sinagog of his time when people ,use gods place of worship for saling things ? Churches these days have become a buissness rather then a place of God ? In the bible that angered God right ? God turned over the tables !

  178. Trying to find the perfect church is going to fail. There are no perfect churches because there are no perfect people. I believe Paul’s letters in the NT testify to this, yet I don’t recall Paul or the Lord saying that if you can’t find the perfect church then quit going. There is also something that smacks of pride in claiming that the churches are so full of imperfect people that “I” must refuse to attend them all. It seems like some have a very high opinion of their Christianity and their place in it.

    What is the purpose of church anyway? Is it to satisfy your wants and desires or is it to provide an avenue of service with other believers?

  179. LuAnn Mattes Feb 23rd 2013
  180. Marilyn Crow Feb 23rd 2013

    The old format we`re used to, public meetings by religious organisations, will eventually expose their connections to the world`s system as they have to `obey,` more & more of its demands. There will be different issues for people as to why they leave, but the world is not going to let go its grip.

    I believe that as the Lord opens up a fresh revelation of Himself we will see `forums,` across areas spring up. These will be where people come together to discuss & share, perhaps a few times a year, then return to their discipling & mentoring..

    In this way the daily life issues are worked out in small 1 on 1, or 2 & 3 size groups. Then in the `forums,` with groups in discussion, a greater input of the Body can occur.

    The formats of these gatherings will be flexible, relational & Christ centred.


    LuAnn Mattes, I hear you. Yes Jesus is not like that.

  181. See when you go to church, you become joined (married) to it, its the husband and wife thing. Than when you find Christ you become a part of His church, His bride. Now there is a dilemma. Do you remain faithful to Jesus and leave the man made system or do you become adulteress and still sleep with the other women and remain un faithful to Christ. This marriage thing is quiet amazing when you understand it.

    The man made system is the Harlot Church,

    Remember, ” come out of her my people lest you be a partaker of her sins.

    It is your choice, one cannot serve two master Jesus or man.

    In All His Love

  182. Clay, your kind of reasoning is the exact kind of religious **** that drives people like me away from shallow Churchianity. “Avenue of service”, what a horrible description/definition of being a member of Christ’s body and following the leading of the Holy Spirit. The problem with churches is that they have many members but few if any who are members of Christ’s body, including the so called leadership. That being the case finding a church that is alive with the Holy Spirit problematic to the max since dead formalism of all kinds is mostly all there is. If that is what you are satisfied with then you are in hog heaven since there are ten of thousands of that kind of church for you to find an “avenue of service” among those “no perfect people”.

  183. I agree with those people above who spoke about the need for relationship with God being the key. He will build his church . . . unfortunately these worldly churches with CEOs, 100.000 dollar salaries and entertaining programs will also continue to build THEIR church. I know a lot of people who have finally gotten sick of the politics, poor teaching, programs that leave you burnt out and hype.

    The Solution?
    Gather around Christ. Get together with others and encourage open sharing, prayer and passionate living for God. I love and follow what Keith Green used to do . . .turn up to visit other believers with bread and wine/grape juice and have an impromptu communion service and share about Christ—why not?
    Get people like Andrew and other teachers/prophets/ etc to come in and build up the body [ the fact that house churches haven’t done this is one reason they have struggled].
    Mobilize everyone to their God given ministry, give to the poor and be know as a people demonstrating the kingdom of God.
    4. If that doesn’t work; ask God for your money back, cos thats the commission he gave the early church and he blessed it so that it functioned and grew.
    blessings GJ

  184. Olga Hermann Feb 23rd 2013

    One of the biggest problems I’ve seen is consumerism mentality of Christians shopping for the perfect church. The only real perfect one is when we go to be with the Lord. Every Christian fellowship of believers are family and within every family there is conflict which leads to growth. Church shouldn’t be about us getting fed with milk for years on end, and running away when our feelings get hurt, it should always be about serving our Lord Jesus and only then will we grow spiritually.

    Choosing the right church isn’t difficult no matter where we are in the world. Instead of shopping for the right music, sermon, pastor appeal, feel good programs, etc., to please us, we should be asking the Lord, where does He need us to serve. Perhaps that Pastor and members need our wisdom, prayers, talents, provision, whatever it is we can offer to help bring balance to that church and grow God’s Kingdom.

    So often people are looking for spiritual hand outs instead of hand ins. It’s time for Christians to grow up and be obedient to God no matter how it hurts. The real Christian life is one of sacrifice and discipline, not a shopping trip at the local mall for the best deals. May God’s people hear His voice so clearly and choose to obey. In Jesus Name, Amen!

  185. Olga Hermann Feb 23rd 2013

    PS Thanks for allowing this debate. It’s much needed!

  186. When I saw Andrews opening statements I thought “oh no, not another lot of church bashing self righteous whining” but I must say I am pleasantly suprised at so many of the responses that have been positive & helpful to thoes who really want to get on with God & grow & be light in the world & useful in the Kingdom.
    Love everyone, Hindus, Muslims, funny christians…the whole lot & then take some of the excellent advice already given about fellowship & go do it.
    Be greatly Blessed

  187. Phil Morrill Feb 23rd 2013

    Andrew, I have been a pastor for 35 years, but am not currently pastoring a church. We have attended or been a part of many churches that don’t teach the whole counsel of scripture, especially when it comes to the teaching on righteousness and holiness. We are currently attending a Calvary Chapel Church (and there is probably not another one like it, since they are all autonomous and congregational in structure) which has been in existence for 14 years. It ministers to 600 plus people each week (very large for the size of the area). For a long time I had some reservations, but the pastor is getting bolder all the time in proclaiming the true gospel. I would encourage any who are interested to listen online or go to their archive and listen to past teachings. I would particularly recommend the Thursday evening service of Feb. 21, 2013 (it may not be on the web yet). The whole message is based on Zech. 4:6. The website is coastlinefellowship.org. Thank you for continuing to be a voice in the wilderness proclaiming: “Prepare the way of the Lord.”

  188. Linda DT Feb 23rd 2013

    My husband and I have been out of the church system for 18yrs, since then have been involved with home church, however, it takes years to get the system out and many run home church just like the big church!!!
    Not to mention ones that come in who are control freaks and want to take over…ahhh!!

    I can finally say, we have a fellowship where something very precious is happening, yet we don’t agree on everything. We each have our emphasis, my husband and I are very strong on loving the truth of the Word, while others are on the gifts of the Spirit, others on the fruit of the Spirit etc. We share around 3 houses, have turns at bringing a word, there is no one person in control, a few mature men, but as I said earlier there really is something beautiful happening between us, we are esteeming each other above ourselves, we are being tenderhearted towards one another etc. speaking the truth in love and grace, we are like a big family!!

    I have always been impressed with what Peter said in his letter:
    1Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart…. and
    1Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

    I can only speak for myself here, I know it must be very frustrating when a sound fellowship is hard to find, the funny thing is we feel the Lord telling us to sell and move from this area and I think what are You doing Lord??? we have this fabulous fellowship!!! however, we have to be obedient and trust that He will keep us and guide our steps!!! so we are going to market!!

    In terms of good teaching there are loads of wonderful teachers online you can listen to if you can’t find good teaching or fellowship… David Pawson, Zac Poonen and Steve Lumbley are a few I listen to and all with different emphasis!! however, I do know that fellowshipping face to face with one another, learning how to forgive, to love, to be gracious and to esteem etc. can only happen when you mix with others. Think about the fruit of the Spirit, we don’t really know that the fruit is in our lives until we have fellowship, (warts and all) with one another!!!
    I know there are times and seasons for doing it alone, but I feel sure that He will bring you along side others at the right time. God Bless you all!!!

  189. promised1 Feb 23rd 2013

    Thank you Brother Strom for posting this article and posing the question to your readers. I have read quite a few of the responses to this blog and I wanted to add my related thoughts.

    My personal experience with church is lifelong. I was rased in the Assembly of God church until I was 15. My family then moved to the Penticostal Church of God, which is quite a bit the same in doctrine and practice. I have ministered (through singing) in Reformed churches, Baptist, Episcipal, Methodist, Non-denominational and other charismatic churches over the past 40 years. My husband and I also have facilitated a home gathering for 12 years. In all of these experiences the Lord has made sure my focus was on His voice, His message, and His Spirit of discernment no matter who I was ministering to or where. Through many horrific experiences in those 40 years one main thing Christ has taught me is concerning the TRUE BRIDE OF CHRIST. As you posted a day or so ago on Facebook from your quotes: A suffering Christ requires a suffering Bride. We are his bride first and foremost before we are a member of a church or gathering. And those we do fellowship with must also be a reproved Bride. The current church focus is in fulfilling the second of the two commandmnts Christ summed up the Law with. The FIRST is to Love the Lord with all your HEART, SOUL, and STRENGTH – then love your neighbor as yourself. Everyone seems too focused on saving the world, feeding the hungry, performing the duties of Christianity and literally setting aside the first command of the marriage covenant with Christ our Husband. We are to fulfill our wifely duties to Him before we can do anything as a body of people, otherwise we do these programs out of our soul and not our broken and contrite spirit before the Lord. That is when ownership takes over and pride rules the day. We are to be Mary at His feet looking into His eyes and listening to His heart and choosing the better thing. The church today is a Martha and she needs to stop performing the second commandment and sit at His feet and fulfill the first and most important covenent command in order to be transformed into His likeness…like many married couples who have true covenent relationship, people begin to say, ” they look like each other”. The preparation process of Esther was 6 months of scorging her flesh everyday which was painful I am sure. THEN 6 months of washing her in perfumes to make her presentable to the King. Be His Bride first, then His voice will speak His revelations and directions to fulfill His desires.

    And just a side note of a small insight He has shown me concerning church and it’s numbes: He said, the shepherd leaves the 99 to go and find the 1 who strayed. That totals 100. Small churches of no more than 100 people could be a secret He hid for these endtimes to help with these HUGE monstrosities that are overshadowing His true gospel. Once the body reaches 100, it is time to start the next one, and so on and so on. Then the TRUE BRIDE OF CHRIST can function as a Mary and truly be in love with Him and His purpose. Keep your gowns clean and pressed, He is about to send out the call, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH!

  190. Marilena Feb 23rd 2013

    I agree this is a big problem these days, I lived for a number of years in Brisbane, Australia and just returned with my husband from being missionaries in India. We tried to find a pastor who would be interested in helping us deal with some answered questions we had from the mission field. Our own pastor in Sydney, who is a lovely guy was sort of forced by AOG World Missions to no longer have us as missionaries because he was appointed director for Middle East and we were not in that area. So we went out to look for another pastor in Brisbane. We are not the hop around type, we were sent out by a big church in Sydney as missionaries after serving there for about 3 years. But we have found that the first pastor did not believe that he needed to pastor the people, he thought that was idolatry, that the people should pastor themselves among themselves, so he passed us on to a young boy newly married with little experience in missions and then to others in the church who never been missionaries and could not relate to what we have been through. Then we found another church where the pastor gave us 30 minutes, then gave Michael 5 min in another meeting and was surprised that he wanted more time. Later on after encouraging a newly turned to Christ girl to get married legally with her husband we were told that we should not talk about anything personal with anyone in the church because of the fear of litigation from church members for somehow wrong advice. We were also told that it means nothing if we did something for God overseas if we don’t have anything here locally and he doesn’t need more vision, he wants us to bring money to fulfil the existing vision. Tried 2 more churches and almost doubted ourselves that something must be wrong with us that we can’t fit anywhere. Then we prayed and God opened a door to move to Townsville where we have found a very good small church started only 2 years ago, after the pastor gave up a big church because he said he was no longer free and allowed to preach the whole truth, he did not give details, but I respected him for that decision. So it is a real problem, not just problem Christians.

  191. Hi Sheri,

    Thanks for your encouragement – you have expressed much better than I did what I was seeking to say! Knowing what God has done in me and through me and the hunger and thirst for more of Him, it saddens me deeply that so many are wandering.

    William Booth the founder of the Salvation Army, said at the end of the 19th century that the 20th century would be a time when there would be religion without the Holy Spirit, forgiveness without repentance, salvation with regeneration, politics without God, Heaven without Hell and Christianity without Christ. How right he was.

    Reading these old saints of God gives the fuller picture compared to what is taught today and their love for Him out weighed the persecution they received.

    The greater the persecution (for the right reasons), the greater the blessing, sweet fellowship with our Blessed Redeemer.

    Bless you Sheri in your walk with Him.

  192. Paul FC Feb 23rd 2013

    Jeremiah Eric Lewis… Thank you for your excellent post, I agree totally. Also I concur with many others who point out that we are the Church and it starts with us.

    May I just make a plea that we restrict the lengths of our posts. I have neither the will or the time to read some lengthy sermons. it is not that I don’t respect your views, I just turn off when I see a lengthy teaching when I am just looking for a comment.

  193. We have visited a number of churches who say they want people committed. Sounds great till you find out what they are requiring of the people.

    Which is church ritual, tithes, programs, entertainment, more tithes, no anointing, or fanaticism.

    Were not looking for a perfect church. In our area you find two extremes in the church world: those dead with ritual and then those into extreme fanaticism.

    I cannot tell you how many charismatic churches have this practice now when they see first time visitors they want to drag you up front for healing or deliverance.

    Did it ever occur to these churches that your looking for a place of worship and fellowship? Maybe your not there for a healing or deliverance?

    I think a lot of charismatics are trying to make it look like something is happening in their churches, when it is only a religious show.

    Jeremiah 10:21 For the shepherds have become dull-hearted, And have not sought the Lord;
    Therefore they shall not prosper, And all their flocks shall be scattered.

    Good article and my heart goes out, to all the saints of God who find themselves in this wilderness.

  194. I will read all the comments later today. Sadly, this is the case for so many Christians. I say sadly on one hand, but fortunately on the other hand. It shows people are SEEKING THE TRUTH!

    We personally have found the Truth in the local churches of the Lord’s recovery. But we HAVE BEEN where all the seekers have been and thank the Lord Jesus for finally taking us into green pastures.

    But a word of encouragement: Look at all your searching as STEPPING STONES. Keep seeking and the Lord WILL bring you where HE wants you. It’s just a matter of time. Seek HIM, not a denomination or “way” to meet with others.

  195. http://www.sonlifetv.net is a breath of fresh air for us!! God is blessing..

  196. Re: Richard Savage: “I’m project managing the building of a social website for out of church Christians. It isn’t given it should be a fellowship, or a replacement for church, just a place for OOC Christians world wide to meet, talk, share and give glory to Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. If anyone is interested, post here and I’ll post an email address where I can say a little more. Look forward to hearing from you.”

    Interested. Post that email address …

  197. Anna M. Feb 23rd 2013

    It is easy to see from our perspective, possibly from a churches viewpoint, but we seldom see from God’s perspective. Being despised, rejected, scorned, vilified, misunderstood, ..etc., are all part of our training in obedience. It is our responsibility to see God’s love and power over all, using this world’s worst to accomplish His very best within us. -That Likeness of Jesus having suffered such things.
    Ro. 8:28- And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    We may not feel that we fit-in, or are valued or appreciated, yet we learn the qualities of greater faith in Him, patience, hope, long-suffering, and so much more. His character-training classrooms are seldom what we would choose for ourselves; as Joseph of old might agree. We do need a greater faith in Him, which allows us to more fully receive what he brings for us. We develop this level of faith in the quietness of our closets, then we go and minister that faith to others. Sometimes in the faithless or heartless churches where is is needed the most. Therein, is He glorified.

  198. The church of the bible was a community of believers who depended on each other for everything … worship and all that goes with it, social relationships, work and all other basics. They were always together. How does the church of today represent the church of the bible?

    Born again in 2002 at 46 ys/o my best church relationship meeting the biblical example was a near cult. Learned a lot and was truly pained when the Lord moved me suddenly.

    What I see in/of our modern day church is a group of people who believe “word only” in the name of Jesus w/o any motivation to seek or help the lost. Groups who have placed a man/woman over them as ‘pastor’ when the bile clearly says that we (those born again) are all priests. Pastor, was never intended to be a salaried position. Each of us are to share in the responsibility, but instead we recreated the Hebraic system of Pharisees, and we have placed men/women in the place of Jesus (the only High Priest). The New Testament doesn’t support it, and the few NT verses often quoted were not intended to be a perpetual system of salary.

    We have billionaire tv evangelists that could afford to feed entire countries … and we continue to feed their flesh and let the poor die in their sins.

  199. jhmac777 Feb 23rd 2013

    Need to start your own church and invite others especially non-believers to come. There are plenty of them.

  200. Di – If you’re reading this and want to communicate with me here in Auckland, my email is [email protected]

    I love to fellowship with believers, especially those who have seen through the system and are seeking God for something better.

  201. elisheva Feb 23rd 2013

    When I go to the local building, if my heart is humble and hungry, Father has always been faithful and I heard Him speak to me. If it is encouragement or correction – that is up to Him. If I focus on Him, there is always The Word coming forth. I must admit, I avoid large congregations and churches with prosperity ministries.

  202. There are so many people that attack the 1611 A.V. only Christians that it troubles my spirit. The reason my spirit is troubled about these attacks is because the attacks cause some of the schisms that cause people to leave. Schismatics try to appear to answer both sides of the issue by rationalizations or by ridiculing the K.J.V. Christians. I have read many of your articles and consider you to be serious, and not a deliberate schismatic. Please explain what you mean by the words anti-Charismatic “King James only”.

  203. My family and I discovered a strange phenomenon in many US church groups. Because there’s so much biblical error and biblical illiteracy in many US congregations, we decided to print out lists of Bible Scriptures and distribute them to our fellow believers.

    However, when we freely handed out the Bible Scriptures to our brothers and sisters, we were rebuked by the leaders. This happened at many buildings they commonly call ‘churches’. It was when we asked the pastors why we couldn’t distribute Bible Scriptures, that they would unwittingly reveal their sins in a huge way.

    It wasn’t when the pastors and others man-handled us with distorted facial features of anger and bitterness as they physically threw us out of their meeting places that revealed their sin. It wasn’t even when they called the police and threatened us with criminal prosecution if we ever came back. It was their bold claims of ruling and reigning that numbingly revealed the root of their apostate condition, and that of much what is called “Christian” or ‘church’ in the US.

    The angry pastors would become so enraged that they fitfully begin to make the following claims; I’m in charge here! I run things here! This is MY church!!

    They proudly confessed their sins to my family and I without even realizing what they were doing.

    They unwittingly confessed that it’s not the Lord’s Church at all, since obviously Yeshua’s the Head of the true Church (Ephesians 5:23). These pastors not only confessed that they’re the head of the church, they actually claimed to possess the church when they wickedly boasted, “this is MY church”.

    They wickedly claimed ownership of that which they do not own, which is probably why they preach “giving” or “tithing” every week, often using the money as a personal bank account to live the Americn dream, while mostly refusing or avoiding to address real issues like the advancing homosexual militant attack against God-ordained marriage, baby being killed in mommy’s belly, new anti-biblical US laws, adultry and fornication to name just some.

    These pastors unwittingly confessed to my family and I, that their “church” is run by them; thereby revealing that their meetings are run by the flesh and not the Holy Spirit at all. They run things, not Yeshua (Jesus).

    Obviously there is a remnant in the US, but much of what is called “Christian” or “church” is back-slidden, apostate and/or controlled by the flesh; carnal minded individuals void of the just balance and union of the Spirit and Word.

    When the salt and light failed to be the salt and light in the US, strange things began to happen. As the light dimmed or became hidden, ever encroaching darkness began to cover the land. As the preservation powers of the salt became defiled and good for nothing, decay began to rule and overtake our society in unprecedented and escalating measures.

    Obviously, the backslidden church is the real reason for the decay and darkness in any land, since the biblical antidote to a corrupt land in need of healing, is the Lord’s instruction for His people to humble themselves and pray, seeking His face and turning from “their wicked ways”.

    Therefore, the impending and unprecedented persecution of Christians in the US will help to awaken and sober up a lethargic, apathetic and lost people. The Lord has great plans ahead for His remnant that will bless them mightily. For His name’s sake, He will do it.

    Meanwhile, the Lord has further identified his true follower and those He will gather as “forsaken”, “poor”, “lame”, “rejected” and “outcast”.

    As the Scripture says, those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. You who know the fellowship of Christ’s suffering are more blessed than you know.

    Thankfully, the Lord has given my wife and I times of refreshing. We now live in Israel, where so many believers know so much more about God’s word and His prophecies. They seem to love Him more than religion or any other thing. We have been blessed and watered with some sweet fellowship here after years of dryness.

    Prayerfully read the book of Ezekiel, chapter 20, for a prophetic peak at the future of the remnant of true followers of Yeshua (Jesus). Here’s your clue to read Ezekiel 20, with prophetic understanding; Yeshua identified His true sheep as those who would hear His voice and follow Him. He further identified those sheep who would follow Him as “House of Israel”. (Matthew 15:24)

    Have you been grafted in? (Romans 11:5-17)

    Micah 4:6-7, “In that day,” says the Lord “I will assemble the lame, I will gather the outcast And those whom I have afflicted; I will make the lame a remnant, And the outcast a strong nation; So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion. From now on, even forever.”

    Are you considered lame or an outcast?

  204. watchful Feb 23rd 2013

    Amen Jonathan Israel, Jezebel’s day is coming, that spirit of fear, intimidation and control. May I be counted worthy to be one of those lame and outcast.

    Randall, your dream calls to mind the following passage of scripture:

    Isa 26:19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

    Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

    Isa 26:21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

    Upper room is also the place where we wait for the outpouring…? It says elsewhere to pray and ask for the latter rain in the time of the latter rain……….Zec. 10:1 Upper room, could it be the wilderness whereby we are separated from the world……….the tunelling through the earth upward speaks to me of re-birth. Hope that is helpful…

    A while back I had a dream of walking down a long hallway with many doors to rooms on both sides, ( in His house there are many rooms) something like a gas came creeping along down by the floor, and i had to flee into one of the rooms and sealed it up against the gas, using white bed sheets that I had soaked with water. In Israel they have literal sealed rooms against literal gas attacks. The gas in this dream speaks to me of deceptions, new age spirits……….?

  205. joseph and eileen Feb 23rd 2013


    A Jewish apostle said a long time ago:
    “The Church is like the Noah’s Ark – dark, dingy, full of all kinds of animals- full of bad smell. But it is the ONLY THING AFLOAT.”

    Some years ago while living in the Washington D.C. area the Spirit
    gave Eileen a word of wisdom in a vision form concerning the then
    state of the American Church.

    After prayer with others concerning this word, our understanding was that Independence and Pride in Independence shone brighter in
    God’s House than Unity in Christ.

    So all the gatherings independently whether in small groups (2 or 3)
    or larger groups (200 or 300) ignores the truth that God commands
    a blessing where there is UNITY IN CHRIST.
    WE even have popular teachings that cater to this divisive idea – thats OK to have tribal divisions cause Israel had tribes?!!

    It is just these divisions in the Church that makes us, the Body of
    Christ, weak and ineffective to reach our cities with the Good News.
    Furthermore the equipping of the saints by all the Eph.4:11
    ministries is stunted if each ministry has its own personal church.

    Let us not forget that as far as God is concerned the local church
    is found in a local city area. Church in Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth etc.

    There is a remnant, so IF you are part of that group, find others in your area – Turn from this wicked way of the world, join hands in
    prayer with others for your city church. Seek God’s face to see what
    He wants you to do to have true unity with others.

    Then a we turn from our wicked ways God will heal the land, area by area, because He is faithful and will do what He has promised if we
    His people do our part.

  206. With respect J & E, you are missing the point. Have you read all the comments? It is this type of FALSE unity we object to. Any sort of ECUMENISM which effectively unites false Christianity into ONE whore organisation is the Whore mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The book of Revelation AND Paul both stare “come out of her!!!!!!”

    Any joining hands (in direct or indirect ways) with the counterfeit Roman church, which came out of Babylon religion, is to be rejected!!!

    The reason that so many are now churchless is basically because of the influence of ecumenism, new age, mysticism, occultism etc etc on the evangelical church. We ARE trying to find a way of addressing this because we KNOW we need fellowship, but fellowship with what? Unity of true born again believers is not being questioned here. It is unity with false christianity that we dispute.

    To read much more on this, please visit my blog:


  207. John, I don’t see “ecumenism” in what J&E wrote. They specifically said “unity in Christ.” Ecumenism presumes “unity” in the name of Christianity whether or not the individuals / entities involved are actually part of the one and only true church (ALL of the blood-bought, born-again ones who follow the one and only true Savior, Jesus the Christ.) If J&E are talking about what you’re talking about, it’s not apparent from what they wrote. If they’re talking about “hyper-separationalism,” where some teach that you must separate from those who don’t separate from those who don’t separate from those … who are in error, they’ve got a valid point.

  208. Richard Savage Feb 23rd 2013

    John Chingford: ‘The reason that so many are now churchless is basically because of the influence of ecumenism, new age, mysticism, occultism etc etc on the evangelical church.’

    John, that’s a gross over simplification which takes no account of this movement of the Holy Spirit. Agreed, some cannot conscience the bastardisation of Christianity, but so very many have actually been ‘called’ out!

    In respect of J&E, I do not understand ecumenism in their post either.

  209. My wife & I moved to Brisbane, Australia three years ago and God led us to an awesome church where the leadership is united in their focus of leading people into a deeper relationship with God, encouraging the work and gifts of the Holy Spirit and growing us into committed Christ-followers who hold the Word of God close to our hearts. Praise God for Kenmore Baptist and other churches we’ve become aware of in this city where truth is taught and the Bible is the center of their teaching.

  210. To be a ‘manifested son of God’ simply means that Christ is revealed in you and that only happens when one continues on to maturity and holiness. When Christ is revealed in your mortal body you can be sure that you will be persecuted and most people will not want to be around you, because the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

    Galatians 1:15-17

    “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.”

    2nd Corinthians 4:7-11

    “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed-always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.”

    Romans 8:14

    “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

  211. Hi Tyrone

    Thanks for that reply. I do not dispute that the Bible talks about ALL born again believers since the first church are known as “manifest sons of God”.

    What I am referring to is the worrying trend which was started by the Latter Rain movement (now known as New Apostolic Reformation) which brought out a theology that there will be a time when believers will become DIVINE, little gods, It is the belief in the lie from satan that they will be like God. satan always wanted to be equal with God and now wants to overthrow God. This movement are buying into that lie and are displaying all sort of satanic manifestations.

    Basically, the manifest sons of God aka Joels Army follow the same teaching and belief of the New age teachings of self actualisation and the new age Christ being birthed in you, ie BECOMING divine. That is why I showed the link to that video. Here it is again:


    The truth is that we have the Holy Spirit in us. We have become a new creation, with our old nature being daily transformeds more and more into the likeness of Jesus. We may have the divine (Holy Spirit) within us and have become more like Christ, but we HAVE NOT and WILL NOT become divine EVER. nor will we EVER become Christ. There theology (just like Word of Faith doctrine, which is similar) is extremely dangerous.

  212. Is it a valid point for consideration in this discussion that some have what they consider exceptionally good “church” experiences when it begs the question of whether or not what they’re experiencing follows in any way the true New Testament model for believers as the church? I’m very thankful that there are so many around the world who are seeing the truth AND that we have a place where we can discuss it together without always being threatened with expulsion by those in extra-Biblical “positions of authority.”

  213. Carl Sukkot Feb 23rd 2013

    My faithful wife and I were married in a traditional non-state church in Denmark – after 10 years of service we had to give in to the political agenda. Another free church we staid in for 8 years and a third similar newly started one for about six years, at which time all the freshness of new beginnings had turned into tradition. We tried two more churches but were never really accepted there and were turned off by their disrespect of the Word of God.
    Apparently Churchianity is considered a panacea for all evils. But in our view the Word of God, the anointing of the Holy Spirit are more important than any kind of Churchianity. It seems hard or close to impossible to find a “chiuch” where tradition and political agenda are not the top priorities.
    It is hard to be an “outsider” and we feel alone, but we actually grieve more for the many lovely believers who are fenced in and fed on a mediocre diet of hearsay and tradition rather than a personal fresh revelation of the Word of God the way that only the spokesman can give.
    The churches initially offered us the right hand of fellowship and we contributed with work,blood, sweat and tears. But after discovering that we were not eligible for their political agenda they ended up offering us the right “foot” of fellowship. They have now largely fallen apart, into apostasy or gone virtually petrified.
    We tried for some time to counteract the subtle but incessant drift towards “religion” because some of the people originally seemed to have had some real personal experience with the living God – but slowly they were deceived to “do-good-ism” and othe elf made forms of self righteousness. Some of them came from drugs, alcohol and other addictions and experienced the grace of God – but gradually they were trained to “acceptable citizens” – who sadly turned less honest than when they were honest sinners.
    With love in Yeshua the Anointed One


  214. booter Feb 23rd 2013

    Far too many Churches/Pastors/Denominations are ‘Unequally Yoked’ through: Church body relationships, compromises in order to co-exist within their communities, exposure to Societal/Media
    driven Morality standards. Most are under the impression that the reference to ‘not being Unequally Yoked’ applies to a Marriage or within a Relationship couple.

    If you’re buying into the influences of the World, and setting your Standards according to Society Norms, then you’re ‘Unequally Yoked’ at several different levels.

    So finding a Church Fellowship/Body of Believers depends upon their dependence with The Truths of GOD, and The Bible = ONLY!

    This all reminds me of ‘1 Corinthians 2:14 / 2 Corinthians 4:4 = whereas the men & women of this world are Spiritually Blinded to the Things of GOD, might not this also apply in the world-at-large seeing as how the Spiritual & the Natural world are colliding/being-directly/indirectly influenced by the Biblical timeline of ‘The End of Days’. IMHO=it feels like a ‘causal effect overflow’ driving world opinions & events. i.e.=The Emperor’s New Clothes

    I’ve always believed “that True Wisdom if CROSS-centered” but people everywhere are strapping on their Spiritual Blinders and willingly accepting = Society’s Bridles & Bits, to allow themselves to be led around like Workhorses of old. There are many different ways to ‘be unequally yoked’

    GOD Bless.

  215. There is a prophetic judgment and end of the corrupt Pastors/Shepherds as these Bible Scripture reveal;

    Jeremiah 10:21, For the shepherds have become dull-hearted, And have not sought the Lord; Therefore they shall not prosper, And all their flocks shall be scattered.

    Jeremiah 23:1, “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” says the Lord. Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: “You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,” says the Lord.

    Jeremiah 25:34, “Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel. And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.

    Jeremiah 50:6, “My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

    Ezekiel 34:2, “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

    Ezekiel 34:10, Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.”

  216. My husband and I wrestled with “how to find a good church” after we were saved 14 years ago. After a few years of church hopping, and being rather quick to critique those in positions of leadership, we “forsook assembling” and tried house-churching with fellow homeschoolers for a couple of years. It was a disaster.

    The Lord then led us to a local Baptist church where the evangelist-pastor who had signed on to “re-kindle” the dying fellowship rather abruptly decided to go back on the road after a couple of years, leaving my husband and I in the position of ‘acting’ pastor and pastor’s wife to all the “babes in Christ” he had made!

    Suffice it to say, we learned rather quickly that ANYONE in a position of leadership/responsibility in a church setting is in a very “hot” seat, and everyone, regardless of what role they are playing in a church, need the prayers, love, support, respect, and encouragement of brothers and sisters in Christ. Negativity and nit-picking are at an all-time high, and God finally burned it out of us. Praise Him!

    Certainly, if a pastor is in clear violation of scripture on key elements of doctrine, and/or teaching out and out heresy, one shouldn’t call it a “church” anyway, one is to speak truth in as much love as possible, and if leaving is necessary, s/he is to leave respectfully. But the key to then “finding” a good church, we found, lay ultimately in our fervently beseeching the Lord to transform us that we might BE the kind of people—the kind of church—that we were looking for.

    Ultimately, we discovered that a whole lot of the time, what was coming “at” us “was” us–we were just our own worst enemies. Like the other guys’ headlights, the faults of others always seemed to be a little more glaring than our own, and there were times that we didn’t really want to see ourselves for the Pharisees we all can be tempted to act like at times.

    Today, we are praising God that we experienced, even for a short while, what it was like to stand in the shoes of those we had previously been far too quick to criticize. Praise God that He had mercy on us, and that He recently brought us a wonderful pastor and wife after two excruciating years of our crying to God for His help!

    It was a very eye-opening, and very humbling experience that I hope others might learn from. “Walk a mile in my shoes” is a very appropriate song to remember when one is being tempted to be critical of others. The church, like marriage, isn’t perfect. But like marriage, the church is God’s idea, not ours. Just because the people that make up marriages aren’t perfect, and have problems, that’s no reason to throw out “marriage.” We eventually realized it was no reason to throw out “church” either. I think too many of us are being tempted of Satan to “date” around with churches versus sincerely inquiring of God where we can be of the greatest amount of SERVICE to Him, and to the Body of Christ. In my humble opinion, there has never been a time when the Lord’s admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together has been more applicable. Because “we see the day approaching.”

  217. Richard Savage Feb 23rd 2013

    John Chingford: given your explanation above, i fail to see how you extrapolated David Marsh and others espousing a doctrine of NAR and Manifest.

    I’d be interested to learn.

  218. It is not “throwing out church” to realize that the church isn’t (at least only) IN “church” … on Sunday … at the little white building with the steeple … sitting in front of “the pastor” … listening to a “sermon” … etc. It isn’t “throwing out church” to realize that we ARE the church and that church isn’t someplace we go or something we do. But I think most here recognize that, so I guess that means I’m “talking to the choir.” 🙂

  219. John Chingford, you said
    We have become a new creation, with our old nature being daily transformeds more and more into the likeness of Jesus.

    May i respectfully disagree with part of your above statement
    You said “with our old nature being daily transformeds more and more into the likeness of Jesus”

    The old nature/old sin nature can never be transformed, it is crucified with Him that it may be destroyed.

    You rightly said that we are a new creation so we are to grow in the “new creation” to become more like Him.

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Every blessing

  220. Richard Savage Feb 23rd 2013

    For those who expressed an interest, and email address for the social website for out of church Christians is:
    [email protected]

    At the moment there is nothing to see at the web address, but email is live.

    Look forward to hearing from you.

  221. We had a wilderness journey for a few years. Yes, there are a LOT of hirelings out there in the pulpit with an agenda that is not on line with the word of God. Thankfully, after much pain & turmoil, and not giving up we have found a church home. It wasn’t easy. At times so of the old memories try to nag at us… but we finally have found people of kindred spirit and we are ever grateful to the Lord for it.

  222. David Marsh Feb 23rd 2013

    My dear Angie,
    But a word of encouragement: Look at all your searching as STEPPING STONES. Keep seeking and the Lord WILL bring you where HE wants you. It’s just a matter of time. Seek HIM, not a denomination or “way” to meet with others.

    You are absolutely right in your summation – “Seek Him”.

    However, few Christians are aware that Jesus design of the ekklesia – which was modeled on Himself with the 12 disciples – is the perfect design that enables every member to “Seek Him”.

    From what you describe, you are very close to the N.T. Biblical design of the original church.

    God bless

    David Marsh
    [email protected]

  223. Our family “left the church” about 12 years ago when our small group decided to begin meeting on Sunday mornings. We all had a desire to seek truth and pursue it, finding the church we were attending didn’t challenge us to strive to do this. We have suffered persecution for this, most vocally from our parents, who truly think we have “left the church.” This is most troubling as we want to BE the church, not go to the church. Since then, our family has moved and though we have tried to meet with other “home churches” we often find they are no different than the institution we left. We miss the expression of the whole body of Christ, expressed through all the body parts in word, prayer, song. We have kept touch with our former fellowship through phone and visits, but really feel we (and our 5 kids) are missing out. While we don’t want to compromise our convictions, we want so much to be part of a fellowship. But for the present (and for the last 8 years) we just meet at home as a family here in Indiana. Lonely, and at times discouraging. But as our kids grow, our little fellowship grows, and it is rich when we see Christ can actually move and speak in just our small family.

  224. Hi Ken

    Regarding your comment http://www.revivalschool.com/cant-find-a-church-andrew-strom/#comment-8470

    Can you please tell me what part of us is the new creation?

    You quote from Romans 6 but do not consider the context of that chapter. For example it goes on to say in verse 11 “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord”

    The chapter is referring to our position in Christ because of the death and resurrection of Jesus. We are to reckon our bodies of sin and our old nature dead and to live in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    However, it is self evident that that old man is NOT totally dead but tends to raise its ugly head at times. When Paul told the Corinthians that they are a new creation, the old has passed away, it was because their spirit (not their soul) had come alive again Eph 2:1 “we who were dead in trespasses and sins Christ has made alive” It was the spirit that died in Eden, not the soul. Having our spirit alive again and with the help of the Holy Spirit our soul can be transformed.

    Paul also said in 2 Cor 3:18 “we are being changed from one degree of glory to another into the image (not the actual person) of Christ. We are becoming like Him in nature BUT NOT in divinity.

    So I ask again, “what part of us is the new creation”?

    It is surely that our soul has now been saved and sealed (not been put to death) but been changed/influenced greatly by the indwelling Holy Spirit which has resurrected the dead spirit (not the soul) of man, ie that part of us that was initially made in the image of God. We are NOW enabled for our whole being (body soul and spirit) to connect with the Living God. Isn’t it?

  225. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Many people think it is all about the structures and “boxes” that are wrong.

    God has made me see it is mostly the “heart” stuff.

    You can get rid of pulpit, buildings and Sundays – yet nothing changes. Because the “heart” has not changed.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  226. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    Dear Patty,
    You have done exactly what God is calling you to do. I believe nearly half of Christiandom have left the historical scene to plant new house churches.
    My research work can help you enormously.

    email me and I will send you a free pdf copy.
    [email protected]
    Yours in Christ
    David Marsh.

  227. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Andrew, could it be that the ‘heart,’ in Hebrew understanding the centre of the body in all senses, is the very thing which has caused so many a crisis of conscience?

    Could it be that He who is the bridegroom has no place for a badly stained unbelieving Bride, a whore with many lovers/clients?

    Could it just be, that these End Times are so very different from anything in the Christian Dispensation, that we should perceive the times and the seasons?

    Strong words? Perhaps, but describe the institution which titles itself church, in other words, and that with truth and a clear conscience before a Holy God.

  228. Why do people run to ” biblre centered ” churches. we are supposed to be centered” on Christ. Have you not read,

    Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    I cannot find a single time where Jesus sent anyone one to church but I can find many times where He called people to Himself.

    SO go to Him, in Him alone is salvation and the truth for He is the truth.

    In all His Love

  229. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    My dear Andrew,
    The peoples heart yearnings for our Lord has not changed. But the historical churches still constrict the members Relationship with Christ. The ‘leaders’ still usurp His rightful position as the Head of the church.
    If the faithful do not understand how the apostles ran the N.T. ekklesias and placed Jesus in His rightful position as the Head of the church then the faithful will struggle to find what they are looking for.
    Their hearts desire has always been for our Lord.

    Jesus and the apostles ekklesia design – is a nearly 100% efficient design ( when one sees it) – for every member.

    God bless you,

    David Marsh.

  230. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Hi Patty,

    I so feel for you as we experience the same over here in Australia. It is not easy but it does help us to draw close to God. It was so encouraging to read how your family has sharing times together & how you have seen the children grow & receive & share from the Lord.

    Your (our) situation reminds me of our gum trees here in Australia where they grow in extremely difficult situations & have to put down deep roots for the moisture.

    Your children have been shown the reality of a Christ centred family & fellowship. They have been putting down deep roots. As they develop & mature they will be the ones to mentor many others as they have an honest walk with the Lord & not just superficial which alot of public gathering can be.

    All the best as you walk with Him. Will pray for your family.

  231. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Actually – the true church is built out of “people” – not structures – whether they be “houses” or otherwise.

    The apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and shepherds provide the bones and ligaments to “grow the body up”.

    Focusing on outward “structure” (houses vs. buildings) is not the main answer, when we are missing the “people” that are required to see NT Christianity.

    I have been around these “house” arguments most of my life. I find they often do little to change anything much.

    Looking for anwers in the “outward” things will not work.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  232. The manifest sons of God are known by various names such as Joels Army, Elijah’s Company, New breed.

  233. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    John Chingford, still haven’t answered my question!

  234. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    John – “Manifest Sons” is a specific teaching. I know this all too well. It may or may not be linked with the other phrases you mention. Some have links to this. Others do not. When you generalize you become inaccurate.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  235. Will try this again:
    Ceece, hirelings in the pulpit with an agenda not in line with the word of God is only one small part of the problem. Is everything ELSE there at your “church home” (not sure what that means, exactly) in keeping with the New Testament descriptions of and pattern for the New Testament church? Is there a “pulpit”? Are there “sermons”? Is there a “church building”? Is there a “church name”? Is there a “pastor,” particularly a paid “clergyman”? Is there a “statement of faith”? Is there a denominational affiliation? Is there a regular Sunday meeting? Etc. …
    Andrew, your comments notwithstanding, do you not think that God is interested in such matters? Sure, the heart’s most important, which is why His people can still survive in such things, but if the above issues constitute elements of gross idolatry (arguably they do), don’t they matter?

  236. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    I agree Andrew about the formal structure versus the house structure. It can lead to `them / us` division.

    I believe that the current of the Holy Spirit is very strong & that He is leading us to be more honest & accountable in our relationships plus more flexible in our variety of gatherings. He has much in store for us, praise His Holy name.

    Also this next generation are very `savvy,` as to whether someone is `true blue,` real, honest, sincere. They are used to a different mode of delivery of communication & often want the `bottom line,` the next step & not the whole road.

    What do others see of this next generation. Interest to hear. Marilyn.

  237. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Andrew: Looking for ‘outward’ things will not work.

    No it won’t, you’re quite right. Is that, just maybe, why so many have abandoned the institutions and sought the face of the Living Christ? A life lived as He commanded. A real life! Not the outward building and deadness?

    Is that perhaps why so very many people, me included, follow Christ and not a buck centred preacher pleading for the roof fund, or his pension, spouting convenience store religion from a pulpit? Or perhaps he’s on a preaching tour, collecting love gifts.

    Is that perhaps why we will not financially support churches and buildings and pastors when the lonely, hungry, dispossessed and orphans remain on our streets uncared for? Better they are loved in Jesus’ name and with His resources than the pastor’s bed feathered yet more.

    Many there are whose hearts are with the Lord Jesus and with these people who need to hear about Him, and not the preacher in a warm church on a cold evening.

    There remains the dyed in the wool ‘churchman,’ who will not allow Christ Jesus may be moving without telling him; denies a move of the Saviour in His Body the ‘churchman’ doesn’t like.

  238. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    To all:

    Think about David Wilkerson for a moment.

    A big Pentecostal church in New York. All the music, sermons, Sunday services, etc. And yet preaching mighty TRUTH and outreaching to the POOR as few others do.

    No “house churches” in sight. But a powerful work of God.

    That is because it is about the “heart” – and not about the “structure”.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  239. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Andrew, just maybe it’s about the Holy Spirit leading Wilkerson and not the man’s carnal desires to be a big name preacher.

    The only genuine success we may have is that which is first born in the mind of God. All else is wood hay etc.,

    Does that tell you anything about the institutional church?

  240. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    True – but the facts remain.

    Most “house churches” do far less in the Holy Spirit than churches like Wilkerson’s.

    Far less.

    What does that tell us?

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  241. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Yes God does work through people in the religious organisation but the time has come, it has a used by date, as it is not able to reach & mentor the next generation.

    God is always moving & we need to open our eyes & see what he is doing & not get relegated to the back water.

  242. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    BTW – I am not “anti” house churches.

    I just don’t think they are the big “answer” that everyone says they are.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  243. So, Andrew, it is ever right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right? Do the ends ever justify the means?

  244. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    You are not understanding me, my friend.

    I am saying that focusing on the outward structures (ie. “houses” vs “Sunday services”) is not the answer at all.

    The focus is entirely on the wrong thing.

    Bless you!


  245. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Andrew: The record of Paul shows clearly, churches are planted by the Holy Spirit and Him alone. The whim of man leads only to failure and perhaps disaster.

    House church, local church or even Crystal cathedral, makes no difference.

    As an aged Christian man asked me many years ago, why would I go where the Holy Spirit is not?

    Fair question, don’t you think?

  246. If the outward structures define and cage the church, then we have no choice but to focus on the fact that the outward structures have defined and caged the church, do we not? Wilkerson had a great ministry, no doubt, but that is a very different thing from the New Testament church. Billy Graham has had a great ministry, but that, too, is not representative of the New Testament church. And if an otherwise great man exercises extra-Biblical authority to stifle I Cor. 14 all-inclusiveness, is he working for the Holy Spirit … or the unholy opposition?

  247. watchful Feb 24th 2013

    …..to me it seems like a bit of a chicken and egg problem……if the structure is unbiblical then the people never mature, hence the hearts are stuck……….but in any case, if the Lord reveals that we have been doing things in an unbiblical way then it seems a good place to start of course is to simply obey Him and obey the scriptures and let the Lord be responsible for the “results”……..however on the other hand again, it is the heart that determines how we read those scriptures, and whether or not we are hearing what the Spirit is saying…….

  248. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Yes, it`s the lake, the river, (Apostle Paul) the backyard, the mall, on line, etc where ever we meet in 2`s & 3`s by the Holy Spirit. That is where the growth occurs & no man can measure that.

  249. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Actually, the Jerusalem church met “en masse” in the huge temple courtyard every day to hear the apostles preach.

    Not just “house churches”.

    Bless you!


  250. watchful Feb 24th 2013

    just to add……..keeping in mind the mercifulness of our heavenly Father who often blesses to some degree even when we aren’t doing things quite right! But there seems to be no question in our observation that the ‘traditional’ unbiblical model doesn’t help either Pastor or laity to mature spiritually…that’s what all the exposure of church leaders secret sins has been for in recent years, to teach us that fact..

    1Cr 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

    Where do we see this instruction followed in formal church structures? Hence no strengthening of the church.

  251. Actually, the Jerusalem church was only ONE local manifestation of the church, and nowhere is that model (meeting “en masse” in the huge temple courtyard every day to hear the apostles preach) given to us as a template for the church to follow for the ages. The only template that we are given is in I Corinthians 14, and the pattern throughout the book of Acts was meeting from house to house daily. But this is not about “house churching.” It’s about NOT being captivated by the idol of the institution.

  252. My family and I have been waiting, searching, and praying for several years to find just a group of Christians who are interested in studying the Bible together. We didn’t want one person to be “the leader” or everyone to follow a specific study. Just the Bible, just regular Christians looking at it and asking questions together.

    It did FINALLY happen and now we have a tiny group who does just that! We are still praying about a larger “church” group. We would like it to look similar to our Bible group. It seems there are plenty of people out there with similar ideas, but no way to network. I know nothing about that sort of thing, so I just pray God will bring along who He will and in His time.

  253. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    The Jewish temple had its `used by date,` also as it was but a shadow of the reality – Christ.

  254. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    I also believe that the Titanic structure of the Religious organisation is about to hit a gigantic Iceberg called – Enmity (opposition) to God.

    `Do you not know that friendship (partnership) with the world (system) is enmity (opposition) with God.` James 4: 4

    It is very obvious that to run a religious organisation now that the world system requires them to bow to its demands. The controllers are being controlled.

  255. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Oh well.

    Don’t listen, then.

    I am simply sharing observations from being around the “house church movement” for over 25 years.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  256. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    To be precise, the house church has been freed from the old ‘historical’ man ruled system.

    The likes of Wilkinson allowed himself to be led by God.
    THAT is the design and internal workings of the N.T. house churches. That is the heart of the true N.T. ekklesia.
    The only way any man can become God’s apostle, prophet, evangelist, etc is when that man allows God to lead him.
    That is the heart of any servant of God. That is the aim for every member within a N.T. ekklesia house church.

    The missing doctrine of how to walk in the Spirit – that the apostles taught the new members within the N.T. ekklesias – is what is lacking.

    It is not about physical structure. It is about how the apostles and members function.
    Wilkerson functioned properly, he listened to and was led by God. That is the function that has to come forth.
    And that is what the ’emphasis on the Word’ will provide.

    God bless

    David Marsh
    God bless

    God bless

    David Marsh

  257. Jackrabbit Feb 24th 2013

    I have not found a church that is not into the occult in over twenty years. I’m not surprised that other people have similar issues.

  258. By the time I saw this topic, there were already well over 200 replies, which I do not have time to read, so I am merely sharing some of my experience and learning in response to the topic. As background, I was raised in a Christian home, we attended Sunday morning services regularly, and I asked Christ to be Lord of my life as a child.

    The first church I joined as an adult was in California in 1993. I was tempted to leave that church a few times simply because the preaching rubbed me the wrong way at points. Thankfully, the Lord gave me the perspective that it was where he had put me, so it was where I would stay. As I continued, the Lord did cause me to grow in that church as I read, learned, and understood more of Scripture. The church was very large, so I never experienced intimate Christian fellowship there.

    The Air Force took me to Massachusetts in 1996. By this point in my walk, I knew I wanted a church grounded in Scripture, close to my residence, small enough for me to get to know most of the members, in which I could really get involved, and where I could be part of a small group. Even prior to leaving California, I started asking the Lord in prayer to quickly show me the place he had prepared for me once in Massachusetts. In short, he answered that prayer through the first church I visited. I became very involved in that church and the Lord taught me much about his design and intent for relationships while there. He also taught me that the application of the truth of Scripture in the context of relationships and the life and ministry of the local church are his key means for our spiritual grow.

    After the Air Force took me to Maryland in 1999, I again prayed for the Lord to show me the place he had prepared for me. It was not the first church I visited this time, which only took one visit to discern, but the second one. To make a long story short, a rather nasty split occurred at that church. I did not want to be there any more, but the Lord had already taught me that running from our problems is not his way. I sought the Lord for whether it would be best for the sake of that church for me to stay or go. Not hearing an answer, I resolved myself to staying unless and until the Lord told me otherwise, even if it meant the rest of my life. Interestingly, the Lord told me very clearly the following weekend to leave, with the final confirmation being at the end of the Sunday morning service. On the way home, I asked the Lord what next. Within twenty seconds, he answered.

    The following weekend, in 2004, I went to the church to which the Lord directed me and am still there. The first few years at this church were very enjoyable, but this church also suffered a split in 2011, due in part to the influence of Global Awakening. The road became very difficult leading up to the split and has certainly not been easy since, but we have seen an outpouring of God’s grace as we have endeavored to walk in obedience.

    I can understand why people get hurt by and even become fearful of churches, but God is faithful and walking in obedience is always worth it in the end.

  259. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    David – I have seen house churches for years, and I have seen very few that are much better than ‘mainstream’ churches at doing the things you are talking about.

    In fact some ‘mainstream’ churches (like Wilkerson’s) are actually much better at it.

    If “houses” were the big answer, we would be in Revival by now.

    Bless you!


  260. Acts chapters 2-5 records clearly what church is meant to be like.

    Above all, it is a community working together in His love, from which folks going out, impact the world with His love and truth.

    It is not primarily a platform for preachers, they are for the ears of the world, not the ears of the saved.

    Folks are tired of celebrity speakers and are looking for love.

    But as someone mentioned further up, most will not pay the price of real church, it will cost you your selfish ambitions, ego and possibly your wealth.

    Real church has loving servants not paid staff.

    So we are light years away from real church in most cases.

    Yet, for the most part, the kingdom is peached and not lived.

    Come Lord Jesus.

    Carl Emerson.

  261. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013


    My husband & I have not been involved with the `house church movement,` that you speak of but it sounds like a mini version of the greater structure. Haven`t seen that or know of it.

    However my husband, Trevor & I have made a few disciples & are now up to helping them with their disciples. We believe in having spiritual children & grandchildren & great grandchildren. There is hardly any greater joy than seeing those whom you have mentored in Christ now mentoring & discipling others.

    Any `meetings, ` `gatherings come from those relationships as we are family together. The hub is Christ & the relationships He builds through us & our disciples & friends.

    We travel regularily up & down our valley often staying overnight or for a few days & the fellowship is deep & sweet.

    In fellowship together. Marilyn.

  262. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Sounds great, Marilyn

    Bless you!


  263. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    I guess what I am opposed to is the great “theories” about changing the church that are far more about ‘structure’ than about “heart”.

    I have heard it all over and over for years, but never seen ‘structure’ achieve very much at all.

    However, I have seen “anointed preaching” achieve a great deal.

    Bless you!


  264. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    You are right, the present house churches aren’t flowing in the Holy Spirit as they ought.

    But they are in a far far better place preparation wise, to fall into God’s plans for Revival. They are not so hindered by the ‘historical’ baggage. They are free to pursue our Lord Jesus, (unhindered less they offend the ‘authority’ within traditional structures ), they are free to pursue His Spirit and bring themselves under His true Authority.

    This will be the dilemma for the traditional churches. The members are so hogtied to the authority of their ‘leaders’ that they will be of no use to God – when He calls them to go forth.

    There will be a massive crisis of loyalties within the ‘historical’ structures that God has left behind.

    But the house church members will be free to pursue HIM. All they need (before He comes) is the Biblical understanding of How to walk with Him – in the Power of His Spirit.

    And that is where the ’emphasis on the Word’ will come in.

    God bless you

    David Marsh.

  265. What you all seem to fail to see is that ” church” is not even a biblical thing, it is a mistranslation like so many other things. For even in the bible it is written,

    Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
    Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
    Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
    Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    See we are supposed to be Led by the spirit, idf we are foll0owing men and there teachings than we are not walking in the Spirit. House group, churches all end up the same way, I have read far too many stories of many who didnt want the “church” thing but no matter what they did, thats what the y got. You cant help it, men like structure.

    1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

    1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
    1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
    1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

    Men dont want Christ reigning over them they want someone they can see, its all teh same thing, and just as Samuel said, they will bring you all into bondage.

    In all His Love

  266. Why has this become about what “works” pragmatically instead of what is in keeping with the patterns and commands of scripture? Does no one else see the errors in that perspective?

  267. I agree that having a house meeting is not the panacea everyone is making it out to be.

    Any house meeting can fall into the same rut that a lot of churches find themselves in.

    Take a group of people in a house meeting who do not need leadership, read a portion of scripture, say some prayers and then feel justified that this is all that is required.

    I do not believe God is calling people to hide out in some house meeting without anointed leadership.

    Anointed leadership is God’s plan and always will be.

    David Marsh

    How did they have all these house meetings if they were selling their lands and houses and laying the money at the Apostles feet?

    34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

  268. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Thank you Andrew for the encouragement. And yes I appreciate anointed preaching (especially with a Welsh, or Scottish accent!!!)

    However unless people are taught to disciple (not many know how) then we will have many people in the trenches potshotting each other.

  269. We invite you all to come by when you can for we too are walking in the desert and even though it is a fulfillment it would be a blessing to relate to sincere believers who want to obey the Jesus. We’ve been independent for 23 years and the media at Salt and Fire is a direct result of our testimony and we believe is to be shared to exhort us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of God! Thank You and keep up the God work!

  270. Friends, it’s not about “anointed preaching” and it’s not about “anointed leadership.” It’s about our Father God, His Son Jesus Christ, and each one of us loving Him and living in accordance with His will. If God has called you to lead (and He has called EACH of us to lead in some place and in some way), LEAD. If God has called you to preach, PREACH. But don’t get mixed up with the world’s definition of either, which is just about all that you’ll see manifested in any institution calling itself “a church.”

  271. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    Again, the house church( presently) is just a generic term for Christians to be able to gather together without the traditions of pews, programs of sing song, stand, sit, sing song, waffly music, overheads, ushers, grandstand Hillsong music – followed by the pulpit sermon, clap, give offerings , go home.

    The Christian gatherings can take place in tents or sheds or halls. It doesnt matter.
    What does matter is how the apostles showed the new converts what Jesus had shown them. And that is the reality of God’s Spirit. The gatherings were focussed on the tangible Person of Christ – His Holy Spirit.

    Just as Jesus walked with the Father by His Spirit.
    Just as the apostles walked with Jesus by His Spirit.
    Just as the N.T. Christians practiced walking with Jesus by His Spirit.

    So too, this is what God is calling us back to. A direct interactive Relationship with Him. Not just the ‘leadership’ but EVERY member. And this cannot be done in the ‘historical’ churches without threatening their leadership structure.

    But it can be done withing the house/tent/shed/local hall church meetings free of men’s traditions and men’s authority over the laity.

    Led by the Spirit, the N.T. members gave all that they had. If you want to see the N.T. ekklesia email me and I would be glad to send you a copy.

    Over 200 have read my work, and i have begged everyone of them to show me where I am wrong. So far, no one has disagreed with my Biblical findings.

    God bless

    David Marsh.

    God bless

    David Marsh

  272. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    P.S. but to the contrary, many have written to me to confirm that my findings are true.


  273. David Marsh

    God will always have leadership as He has ordained it in His Word. It does not matter what type of structure it is as long as the people are following the Lord.

    There is nothing wrong with spending time in worship, prayer and then hearing anointed preaching.

    You cannot lock into something in a small part of scripture and say this is the final way.

    What about everyone having everything in common and selling their houses and lands? Are we to have everything in common?

    What happened in the NT is because the Spirit of God was working through the Apostles as they sought the mind of the Lord.

    God has ordained leadership for a purpose its not for us to change what is plain in the Word of the Lord.

  274. David Marsh
    Just people writing you and saying this is true does not mean its true. Is this what your basing everything on?

  275. This is what the ekklesia means:

    In the NT, the word ekklesia refers to the group of “called out” people (from every tribe and tongue) in covenant with God by means of their trust in Jesus Christ. In particular, this ekklesia is composed of ONLY those people who confess their faith that Jesus (Yeshua) is none other than God (Adonai) come in the flesh, who died as a sinless substitutionary sacrifice for their sins, was buried, and resurrected from the dead.”

  276. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    Dear GaryB
    “What happened in the NT is because the Spirit of God was working through the Apostles as they sought the mind of the Lord.”

    It seems that we are talking about exactly the same thing here and are in agreement.

    The N.T. leadership were leaders in God’s eyes because they were led by Him, Just as Jesus was led by Him.
    The other issue of note is what it was that the Lord had His leaders teaching the new converts.
    1Cor:7-12 is a good example.

    My apologies to all for getting carried away at times.

    God bless you

    david Marsh

  277. It’s the same down here in New Zealand. -_- There seems to be a shortage of Churches that simply preech what the Bible says. Anyone who was looking for God wouldn’t find a solid message that they can cling to.

    They’d hear about the Pastor’s holiday, the gabble gabble of tongues with no translation and people bending over wobbling around like they’re drunk. If I were searching for God in a Chruch I wouldn’t like my chances.

    We didn’t go to Church for about 2 years after becoming disillusioned by 2 of the last ones (realised that they were only after a ‘Holy Spirit Buzz, scripture hardly ever used, or not even interested in Jesus at all etc.) we decided we’d try again.
    The people seem nice but there are always the people who have ‘spasms’ in prayer as if in pain, talk too loudy in tongues without translation, songs that are all about us and not about the Lord and youth who think they’re the new and better upgrade to the old.

    We have decided to overlook some things because there are some real gems in the church who are lovely….but isn’t it sad that you have to?
    Our only other choice is to leave and be on our own again as a family, not that that’s bad, but you always crave to celebrate your faith with others who have different experiences to share, gifts and plain encouragement that can be offered and recieved . etc

    Ahhhh~ Sorry bout the mini-essay. ;>_>

  278. David A Feb 24th 2013

    Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    Its not about men and leadership its about Christ and us following Him.

    Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Men or Jesus your Choice. The days are approaching where you wont be able to have a bible neither attend church, who will you run too, are you going to be like those in Noahs day, being married, give in marriage than when the door of the Ark is closed, come running to be let in, than as it was, it will be too late.

    Jesus is our Ark, abide in Him NOW.

    In All His Love

  279. Andrew it looks like very few are listening to you. Looking back on your posts you keep saying the same thing & you’re absolutely right, it’s not about structures & we keep discussing & complaining about structures

    Merryheart999 you hit the nail square on the head regarding church …..”walk a mile in my shoes”.
    Be Blessed – Ian

  280. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Ian The Topic is `Can`t find a church,` then it seems it is about structure. To go find a church means you are looking for an organised public meeting – structure.

    However Tracy said `Where are His true people?` That is entirely different. His true people are making disciples as the Lord told us.

    Like the Apostle Paul who told his disciple Timothy to make disciples & then help them to make disciples & then help those ones to make disciples. 4 deep is quite a large family.

    People being discipled then know who they relate to & who are encouraging them in their giftings & daily lives. It is all interrelated. There are no orphans or people looking for structure. They are a family because they have been birthed & mentored & encourage & taught to do the same.

    There are so many orphans in the Body of Christ now & trying to connect to a structure does not always work. However if we obey what the Lord says & go & encourage a few others, make disciples then after a while there will be a `family,` that helps each other.

    We are all on this journey & it takes time & working with the Holy Spirit to be brave enough or simple enough in trusting God to step out & build relationships.

    Appreciating all your comments even if differing because we are connecting & working through together.


  281. Christian journalist Feb 24th 2013

    My church which I was a member of was part of AOG until restorationism took control and stepped in and divided the congregation. Since then it has targeted young families and students which have become the bulk of the church.
    People have to sign a pledge if they are to become members.
    The vision behind its direction is not to evangelise but to create similar churches of doctrine and practices. This it has achieved as the leadership takes over established churches and to replace pastors, ministers, etc.
    My wife and I left the church after being told to leave if we did not agree.
    We found a CoE church after after two years was told to leave as a certain minister, called Rev David Pyches who was involved with the Torornto Blessing experience, began to influence and pull the church into that direction.
    We became part of the Methodist Church, but its minister was leading the church into deception, and he committing adultery which was covered up. It now want to “disciple” the congregation which most church goers are not born again christians, and only christians by name. This discipleship is a theme now being taken up by nearby Methodist churches and in the Methodist Church itself. For congregations are dwindling as with church leadership.
    My wife and I have not yet found another church establishment to go to.
    I have been to a few but am not allowed to share or say anything unless I join the church.
    I find fellowship in believers homes. I am encourage to be the person which the Lord is moulding me to be. To be a servant of Him and preach the Good News outside of the walls of any buildings such as a church.
    I have found no great revival which the restorationist church is trying to proclaim – nothing has happened since my wife and I left.
    What I have found in the local churches remaining is a falling away and churches competing to get “bums on seats” using various methods such as entertainment to attract people to go.
    What is lacking and showing is that one word again called REPENTANCE.
    There are very few shepherds around but paid HIRELINGS coming from all areas under the umbrella called RELIGION.
    Instead it appears that all paths lead to God which is DECEPTION and untrue!
    Please share if you agree or disagree.
    And thank you brother Andrew for your concern.

  282. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Christian Journalist, we’re in the UK, as I believe you are.

    You write nothing I could disagree with, just my experience with a raft of churches was terminated 20 years ago. Although only lately has come understanding the OOC is a vast worldwide calling out, none the less, people’s experiences and opinions mirror my own.

    For reasons I’ll be happy to explain privately, there is a social website being built for OOC Christians. I’d appreciate the opportunity to say more to you. If you care to email me: [email protected], I’d be delighted.

    From a fellow Brit, May the LORD Bless You And Keep You.

  283. Pastor Keith Feb 24th 2013

    I am a shepherd who looks after the sheep which the Lord Jesus has given to me. For I am no paid hireling. Our fellowship is small but effective and alive in the community.

    To brethren contributing on Andrew’s web site.

    Having heard so many prophecies about the coming world wide revival from the mouths of false prophets and teachers, those who claim to be christians and put such folk as the “anointed” ones, kindly make a step back and compare what is being said in line with the Word of God. For what is disturbing and the Holy Spirit is revealing is what they declare, say, and predict which have nothing to do with the Lord God Almighty. They are not God’s business managers or His assistants, and will ever be.

    Please look at this certain christian tv channel from this link and notice who is on board promoting this acclaimed world revival, to include the one and only Todd Bentley

    Having looked at this – kindly look at this link below about the Bay of the Holy Spirit revival conducted by leaders involved with the Toronto Blessing. It is staged managed, uttered false prophecies given amongst themselves, and controlled from the stage for the participating audience and for tv viewing.
    This so called revival is currently on tour in the USA. The question which those involved cannot answer is this – how can revival of any sort be taken on tour by those professing to be prophets or teachers?

    But consider this about the Lord Jesus Christ…

    For the next 60 seconds,
    set aside whatever you’re doing and
    take this opportunity to read the following!
    What will Satan do about the information?


    At the age of 33, Jesus was condemned to the death penalty.

    At the time crucifixion was the “worst” death. Only the worst criminals condemned to be crucified. Yet it was even more dreadful for Jesus, unlike other criminals condemned to death by crucifixion, Jesus was to be nailed to the cross by His hands and feet.
    Each nail was 6 to 8 inches long.

    The nails were driven into His wrist.
    Not into His palms as is commonly portrayed.
    There’s a tendon in the wrist that extends to the shoulder.
    The Roman guards knew that when the nails
    were being hammered into the wrist,
    that tendon would tear and break, forcing Jesus
    to use His back muscles to support himself
    so that He could breathe.

    Both of His feet were nailed together.
    Thus He was forced to support Himself on the single nail
    that impaled His feet to the cross.
    Jesus could not support himself with His legs
    because of the pain, so He was forced to alternate
    between arching His back then using his legs
    just to continue to breathe.
    Imagine the struggle, the pain, the suffering, the courage.

    Jesus endured this reality for over 3 hours.

    Yes, over 3 hours!
    Can you imagine this kind of suffering?
    A few minutes before He died,
    Jesus stopped bleeding.
    He was simply pouring water from his wounds.

    From common images, we see wounds to His hands
    and feet and even the spear wound to His side…
    But do we realize His wounds were actually made in his body.
    A hammer driving large nails through the wrist,
    the feet overlapped and an even large nail
    hammered through the arches,
    then a Roman guard piercing His side with a spear.
    But before the nails and the spear,
    Jesus was whipped and beaten.
    The whipping was so severe that it tore the flesh from His body.
    The beating so horrific that His face was torn
    and his beard ripped from His face.
    The crown of thorns cut deeply into His scalp.
    Most men would not have survived this torture.

    He had no more blood to bleed out,
    only water poured from His wounds.
    The human adult body contains about 3.5 liters
    (just less than a gallon) of blood.

    Jesus poured all 3.5 liters of his blood;
    He had three nails hammered into His members;
    a crown of thorns on His head and, beyond that,
    a Roman soldier who stabbed a spear into His chest.

    All these without mentioning the humiliation
    He passed after carrying His own cross for almost 2 kilometers,
    while the crowd spat in his face and threw stones
    (the cross was almost 30 kg of weight, only for its higher part,
    where His hands were nailed).

    Jesus had to endure this experience,
    so that you can have free access to God.

    So that your sins could be “washed” away.
    All of them, with no exception!
    Don’t ignore this situation.


    For you, who have read this.
    Do you believe that He only died for others
    (those who go to church or for pastors, bishops, etc).
    He died for you!
    It is easy to pass jokes
    and false witness statements on the internet,
    but when it comes to God Almighty,
    sometimes one feels ashamed to let others know
    because you are worried of what
    they may think about you.

    Accept the reality, the truth that

    God has plans for you – tell friends, family members, christians, and your enemies that He has save you.
    Think about this what has been shared with you!
    May God bless your life and your walk with Him!

    Then consider biblical prophecy of the Bible – His written word.

    “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory,


    And this voice, which came from heaven, we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount. WE HAVE A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. FOR PROPHECY CAME NOT IN OLD TIME BY THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:16-21 (emphasis mine)

    Peter said, “We have a more sure word of prophecy” I ask you, more sure than what? As Peter was talking about the time when he, James & John were with the Lord Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, (Matt. 17: 1-13) we can safely assume that was what he was talking about. If we read the Biblical account, we can see that it was a fantastic experience for those disciples. It was so good, that Peter wanted to erect tents and stay there! They actually saw Jesus IN ALL HIS GLORY! They actually saw Moses & Elijah, and although they had never met them before, they knew exactly who they were!

    This was a glorious moment for them, one that they would never forget. Yet, Peter was saying, the Biblical prophecies of these end times are more real, and more sure, than even that fantastic event on the mount! I wonder if we today give the prophecies of these end times as much emphasis and as much importance as Peter did.

    We hear a lot about prophecy today. Many professing Christians seek after ‘words of prophecy’ to be said ‘over them’ People are quick to proclaim the ministry of a prophet, and probably feel very good giving prophecies in meetings. This Internet is full of such prophecies. Many of these prophecies are false as are the so called prophets who give them. Don’t get me wrong. I believe there are genuine prophecies given today, and I believe in the gift of prophecy. But where the genuine is available, the devil is only too willing to produce the counterfeit.

    Peter said “For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man” They didn’t originate with man but “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” A prophecy is only genuine if THE PROPHET IS GENUINELY MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST.

    Do you know the TEST of a genuine prophet?

    “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him” Deut. 18:22

    The test of a true prophet is that his prophecies come to pass 100% of the time! A true prophet speaks for God. God puts the word within him. It is God’s true precious word! God’s word NEVER FAILS.

    Every true word from the mouth of a prophet can be confirmed by the Bible. God never contradicts Himself!

    Peter said, ��WE HAVE A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” 2 Peter 1: 19

    The true prophetic word of God is a LIGHT shining in a DARK PLACE until the DAY DAWNS. We do well to TAKE HEED!

    We are living in a spiritually dark world, God’s prophetic word shines out in the darkness, but a false word from a false prophet DOES NOT. A false word deceives people.

    The Lord has declared Jesus is returning soon! TAKE HEED!

    “Behold He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen” Rev. 1:7

    Brotherly love…..Pastor Keith

  284. Wow! I am taken back what Pastor Keith has shared.
    I no longer go to any established church because the church system cannot feed me, care for me, allow me to share His word at church services, or will support me in carrying out the Commission which the Lord Jesus has given to His followers.
    So sad but very true.
    Judgement has already begun in the house of the Lord and to nations who disregard and mock His commandments and His written Word.
    What is deemed and called to be the christian church is now being scattered from within and is under JUDGEMENT.
    This is happening before our very eyes and to ignore this is self denial.
    Andrew… what do you say due to the thread you have created on the web site and the comments made so far?

  285. David Marsh,

    I think your right here, as I wrote my last comment last night I reread your comments and realized we were saying the exact same thing.

    When they sold their lands and houses the only obvious meeting place would of been in the temple or anywhere that a large group of believers could meet at that time.

    But its not about the structure.

    At the same time I think any type of gathering needs God ordained leadership. I am thinking there has to be some structure in a gathering of believers or you would have utter chaos with anybody promoting whatever they wanted.

    My concern is what would happen if you branched out, started a house meeting and then would have to deal with all the baggage that people would bring from the church system?

    I still believe men do not just jump into some leadership position, there is a place where God calls men to be Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, etc.

    The problem in the system is that many see it as a nice career and have no calling. They take on a title and then resort to all the gimmicks to attract people.

    David to you see what I am trying to say here?

    In Him,

  286. watchful Feb 24th 2013

    Keeping in mind that in coming out of the churches and fleeing into the wilderness we are beginning all over again with Jesus……….His example was to disciple……….we are being discipled by HIM and this takes time…the patience of the saints, keeping the word of His patience, carrying our crosses, preparing our hearts is what wilderness is all about. I haven’t experienced the “house church movement” so can’t really comment about it except to say that if He isn’t dwelling among them then perhaps it isn’t the Lord building the house. Is it possible they jumped the gun, ran ahead of the Lord, before their hearts were prepared….that is the usual tendency.

    Your word about preaching is valid Andrew, for this Jesus also gave us His example………in simplicity. Who is called to preach, then preach, nobody is stopping them. Each one simply doing what is in them to do, the gifts according to the will of the Spirit. They can begin in their own home, they can step outside onto the roadway in front of their house, or preach amongst their acquaintances, they can head into town or perhaps the Lord will blow them like the wind elsewhere.

    But the way we go about things is also very important, if we don’t follow the biblical pattern of simplicity then nobody grows spiritually the way they ought……..this has been demonstrated in our lifetime, the fruits have grown and popped out and are readily seen now and they are bad fruits……so what does that say about the tree they came from. And the thing about the biblical pattern is that it has no external structure except a few common sense rules for the sake of order……….it’s structure and authority are SPIRITUAL……..and it didn’t begin without the equipping and empowering of the Holy Spirit being poured out. Without Him we can do nothing.

    Anyway, that is how I would describe it……..there are quite a few testifying here to the same things……….and it may be that persecution is the missing necessary ingredient for the North American remnant…?

  287. watchful Feb 24th 2013

    Pastor Keith, and Kevin……….yes I also have experienced the churches actually OPPOSING the work of God………in my own little way……that’s such an important reality to bring out here!! It is the shocking truth, paste it all over the place and let the truth be seen! The churches are not DOING the work of God, they are OPPOSING it!! Great big monoliths standing in the way of the Holy Spirit, opposing Him, blocking Him, quenching Him…….let these mountains be cast into the sea! For me it was the beginning of my long slow bewildering waking up!

  288. David Marsh,

    One more thing, I know its easy to use words trying to explain something and it can end up being the wrong choice of words.

    I know some take one word out of a comment and try to analyze it and make it say something your not trying to convey.

    This is the bad part about writing comments and people missing the whole point. They become stuck on the one word. I have been guilty of this as well. 🙂

    I’m sorry was not trying to intentionally read into what you were saying.

    Thanks again brother for taking the time to explain what you were saying.


  289. Is THE purpose of the local assembly for believers to come together to hear sermons from one man? (Where does that fit in the 1 Cor. 14 model?) Exceptions are noted, as from time to time there may be an evangelist passing through, much like the apostles did, but does not this emphasis on one man speaking lead to other manifestations of the same error (not taught in scripture) such as “multiple elders” (also not taught in scripture)? And given that, why does the “good” done by some (Wilkerson, et al) somehow bend this discussion about what is and where do we find the local church?

  290. Jerilyn Capaccione Feb 24th 2013

    We have been through similar problems with churches today as others on here have stated they’ve been through. I would like to know if anyone who reads this website has a house church group in Western PA (near Aliquippa, PA). We would love to get together with those who believe as we do in home group atmosphere. We have been as a family condemned and persecuted by churches for years now and as a result haven’t been to a church for almost 10 years. We would like to know if anyone who reads on this website lives in our area of PA and has a house church group. Thank you.
    Jerilyn Capaccione

  291. Andrew Strom –
    Well, I also have a similar story and have been totally broken by the church but am still walking with Jesus. I’m in South Africa!
    In 2001 I joined what I thought was a strong Bible based church and I enjoyed the fellowship and started studying at night in their Bible school, I was running a prison ministry which I founded. Because of this successful ministry I had I was asked to join their staff which I did. Big mistake! As time went by the Holy Spirit revealed to me all the errors in their teaching. They were into the prosperity gospel and faith movement. I would end up weeping in the services and the pastor would come up to me and say “What’s wrong? You are totally broken?” We were ruled by fear and robbed of our money! I eventually resigned and all my friends there were told not to associate with me.
    The next church I went to in the neighbourhood turned out to be apostolic with new day beliefs. When I pointed out that I had a problem with all the leadership drinking alcohol all the time I was called a Jezebel and asked to leave the church. I was also told that the pastor is my spiritual father and I am his spiritual son.
    The next church I visited, no one was allowed to pray unless they had one of Benny Hinn’s prayer shawls over their head. So 90% of the church went to the service with shawls. The pastor then turned out to be a homosexual and I saw him sharing a bed with the associate pastor on a mission trip.
    I then moved out of the area and ended up on a mission station, where I am now stuck, which is anti-charismatic and under a very religious spirit. Here I am falsely accused and persecuted on a regular basis and am watched all the time. I felt safer and freer living in gang territory ministering to gangsters a few years ago, and more loved!
    For obvious reasons I cannot give my real name – Hephzibah.

  292. Nathan Feb 24th 2013

    I started to attend a SDA church. It blew me away how spirit filled everyone is how warm and receptive they are. They know their bibles well, emphasise prayer and practice healthy lifestyle. Some of the doctrine like anhilism I cannot believe but I think the very simple pure Christianity I see being lived out beats anything I have seen in Sunday churches for a while. Now I need to sort myself out because I realise how I want to be like them.

  293. Anna de Greeff Feb 24th 2013

    I prayed for years….almost 30; for God to give us shepherds after His own heart. We have one…..,meanwhile He was teaching us on our journey. We belong to a Messianic Fellowship, inspired by the Holy Spirit in every area…..still being imperfect beings, only our spirit was born again. He is working out our salvation. In our soul, I believe and healing often follows.
    Keep reading His Word and obedience is better then sacrifice, is written.
    From glory to glory He leads us.

  294. shouldn’t we be asking Why? the church is meant to be the kingdom of heaven on earth. Meant to be Gods temple. The word says that God “sets us in the body” so why are so many christians unable to find any churches they believe is “in truth”?
    maybe because we are under the judgement of God which is spoken of in Micah 3:8-12

    And our punishment is captivity and wilderness…

    Amos 8:11-12
    “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God,
    “That I will send a famine on the land,
    Not a famine of bread,
    Nor a thirst for water,
    But of hearing the words of the Lord.
    12 They shall wander from sea to sea,
    And from north to east;
    They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord,
    But shall not find it.

    This wandering from sea to sea is a picture of those in the body that are wandering trying to find churches that speak and teach truth.

    so now that we know why… we need to ask what do we do? fast and pray for direction to which part of the body you should be joined to. Don’t just join yourself where you “feel” is the truth. Feelings are not a substitute for hearing from God.

    and take heart, God’s Judgement is always measured and he desires to liberate his people again like he has done so many times down the ages.

    Liberation is closer than you think….God is at work, he always has been. Even while his church has decended into deception and Sin. He knows all things and is building his foundations again.

  295. David Marsh Feb 24th 2013

    Yes, you are right. We all try to make our comments brief. And in doing so we only partly explain ourselves.
    On the selling of lands that you mentioned. My understanding is, that the apostles obeyed everything that god’s Spirit was leading them to do. What ever happened in the ekklesias happened at the direction of what God spoke to those apostles.
    We cannot think for one moment that Paul commanded God to end Ananias and Sapphiras lives when they lied to the Holy Spirit.
    God truly was the Head of those churches. And He was the Head because the leadership knew His voice and they submitted themselves to Him. That is a glimpse of how the N.T. churches functioned.

    God bless

    David Marsh.

  296. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Ben, I often appreciate your comments but I think you are a bit muddled here.

    The rulership of heaven will be through repentant Israel over the nations of the earth. (Dan. 2: 44)
    Similarily in Amos, God is speaking to rebellious Israel. As the Body of Christ we can learn from the Old Testament however, God wrote those words to Israel. We have to be careful not to think the whole of God`s word is written to us. We are not the centre, but Christ is, & His purposes for the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations.

    And yes you are correct we are the `temple,` of the Lord with God`s Holy Spirit in us. However we are not under punishment but `training & discipline.` (Heb. 12: 6 – 17)

    What we are seeing is the maturing of the Body of Christ to be about His business – making disciples, encouraging each other, building relationships. If we are doing that then the sense of loss of a system will be worked out of us.

    Yes we have felt in the past, comfy, looked after, had ready made fellowship put on, felt a part of something bigger, etc, etc, but it was all done for us, we didn`t have to build deep relationships, we didn`t have to seek God for ourselves, it was all done for us. (Yes I do realise that that wasn`t true for some people) Still the organisation did that for its members.

    Also the Holy Spirit is not building the foundations again, but continuing to reveal more of Christ to us & His purposes. We need to address our wrong belief that a man made religious organisation putting on a public meeting is God`s blue print for the Body of Christ.

    Of course people, organisations can put on public meetings & be part of the activity, but the real danger is when those public meetings become the hub of our lives. What is showing up is this immature reliance on a man made hub.

    The next move of the Holy Spirit, I believe is a greater revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. We can look forward to that together Ben. And I see it on the horizon.

  297. Friends, might it not be said that the whole issue here about not being able to find a church goes back to men trying to have the preeminence over other men, taking to themselves pseudo authority by creating church “offices” that God never ordained, and turning the assembly of local believers into a one-man show, focused on their own display of their gifts, whether real or contrived? We don’t need to discount those gifts, per se, to still question whether the purpose of the local assembly allows for any one man to take control and to place everyone else present under what would appear to be his spiritual authority. Again, that is NOT to say that there is not a legitimate place for them to exercise their gifts, if really from God, but the New Testament makes NO case for the view that that is the purpose of the church or its assemblages.

  298. People are so quick to say “There is no perfect church”. This is rubbish. “The Church is supposed to be a body of people with Christ as the head, So are we saying that even though Christ is the Head and died for the church, somehow it is not perfect? (Church of Philidelphia Revelation 3 – GOD holds nothing against them)
    Don’t get me wrong, I have been thrown out of, pulled myself out of and told by GOD to leave churches as this wave of psuedo Christianity spawns the monster it is becoming, but there IS such a thing as a perfect church, just not perfect people.

    People that are so quick to say “There is no perfect church” have completely missed the importance of books such as Timothy and Titus. Clear instructions are given to how Church matters should be handled. Yet do we follow them? NO! This would mean we are too “Legalistic”
    Despite Paul clearly stating to holdfast to the traditions of his Epistles, we have experiencial worship, Prayer lines, “Creative ministry teams” and the list goes on and on.

    The Church has been so committed to growing numbers and bums on seats that we actually have people within the so called “Christian” Circles that claim to have a doctorate in Church growth! – I always thought that was the job of the Holy Spirit!!!

    The reality is we need to stop making the Church Relevant to the world, and make the World Relevant to the Church!!

    YESHUA clearly said that Those of the world can not receive the spirit of truth. Therefore numbers can not dictate success of the Church.

    It is so sad that Churches have boomed to the Size they have and the number of different Denominations out number the number of the “True followers of Chrst”.

    Down with Churchianity. Up with CHRISTianity.

  299. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    Amen Ben.

  300. Marilyn Crow Feb 24th 2013

    I better qualify that.`Churchianity,` meaning man-made so called churches. For I believe as all of us here do that Christ is building His called out ones to maturity in Him.

    Just because man-made organisations call themselves the `church,` doesn`t mean they are, obviously. So why do we hunger after a format that is so restricting? Because it has become imbedded in our minds as that it is the church.

    We give it too much power & thus the Lord is relegated to the sidelines or at best trying to start it again!!!!!!!

    Lord, we repent & ask for a fresh revelation of who you are so that it is not about us.

  301. I Agree Marilyn!
    I also mean the whole doctrine of what Church has become. The buzz words and attitudes that are not biblical. Too wrapped up in “The annointing” or “Experience” and not founded in love and truth. To many programs, and not enough focus on the narrow path. Too many promises of Blessings and not enough obedience. Too much transactional worship, and not enough walking. (Transactional worship being the Lie that so many churches now beleive that says: If you want a touch from GOD then sing songs to him and receive him) – A lie because Either GOD lives in you and he is Omnipresent, or he comes and goes!

    GOD is good.
    Repent! for the kingdom of GOD is at hand!!

  302. Richard Savage Feb 24th 2013

    Marilyn, I look forward to hearing from you. My email is above.


  303. Kathleen Feb 24th 2013


    My name is Kathleen and I attend a home church. Most of the time we have about 6 believers in attendance. This is the first church I have ever attended where I truly feel we are worshipping our lord.

    The lord confirms every Sunday that he is right there with us by the subject and testimonies that we all share. The prayers are amazing and the understanding that we all gain is like nothing I have ever experienced.

    If you cannot find a church in your area….start a home church and let the lord lead you.

    God Bless to all

  304. Andrew Feb 24th 2013

    Sounds great, Kathleen.

    Bless you!


  305. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Folks, you don’t have to START anything! You already ARE the church! Just look for others around you with whom to fellowship AS the church! (And don’t get distracted by that pseudo-church stuff that goes on on Sunday. You don’t need a pastor, or sermons, or a statement of faith, or a name, or a meeting schedule, or recognition by anyone …)

  306. Sharon Feb 25th 2013

    I haven’t been to church for two and a half years because I can’t find a biblical one. Of the last three, the first was mired in pastor-sanctioned gossip, the second had a New Age basis, and the third was bound to rules and regulations, actually teaching all other believers were wrong.

    There are no churches in town which teach the gospel in both love and fear of the Lord. There’s also certainly no encouragement of the body for ministering to others or preaching the Word. (Eph. 4:11-13) Why are these so difficult?

    I’m not looking for a “perfect” church but for a real one. The whole point of being a Christian is to have a right relationship with the Lord through Christ and to become more like Him. This is not being taught in the vast majority of churches, at least where I live. I know so many others who feel the same way, yet no one is willing to come together in a body to be the church.

  307. Bryan - UK Feb 25th 2013

    The only real and true revival was expereinced by my wife and I and members of my local Anglican Church was at St Pauls Church (CoE) at Hainault, Essex, whose vicar was Rev Trevor Dearing. This went on for about five years in the 1970s. But that was a long time ago and nothing has happened since except of what lay behind the Toronto Blessing phenomenon which was false and occultish.
    The TB experience is remerging but under a new name led by the same people as before which is evident within the WoF and charismatic movements as seen on so called christian stations in America and Spain.
    I happened to watch Revelation TV today and saw one of their programmes about revival which showed a black African lady preacher (and others on stage) calling upon the spirit to slay people in the spirit but then she was seen pushing people down on stage.
    God TV had a familiar person stating what revival was doing in the former eastern european countries and wanted christians to send in their monies for this work to continue. Rory Alec of God TV was saying similar things for revival to continue in his part of the world with the emphasis that 2013 would be the year of a world wide revival.
    These are man made attempts for their empires to expand and are using tv as a deception to extract monies from viewers for their luxurious lifestyles. They can prophesy as much as they like what God is going to do, who by the way, has nothing to do with their shenanigans and utterances all done by using the name of Jesus.
    My wife and I are no longer members of the CoE due to the former Archbishop of Canterbury who was a Druid. The Anglican Church has embraced homosexual bishops and next month are considering the ordination of women bishops once again.
    We were married in an evangelical Baptist Church and whilst there as members some members of the congregation tried to get rid of the minister. There was a power struggle which the church has not recovered since with the minster now pastoring a church in Canada and the deacons either dying later due to their disobedience or leaving the church to go elsewhere to continue their misdeeds.
    My wife and I are churchless and the strange thing which Doug Harris of Teachout Trust who is a presenter of Revelation TV advise viewers who were without churches, recommended people like ourselves to go to a Roman Catholic Church which was acceptable.
    This is what he said
    The Roman Catholic Church is the biggest cult in the world and its doctrines are not biblical.
    I visit believers’ homes for fellowship and go into the world as a servant of the King. For there is nothing within the church system that encourages my walk with Christ. Not many christians in the established church are following the Lord Jesus. They appear to be following men who are not shepherds but paid hirelings.
    I would ask Andrew, as with others, what is your response to the comments being made by brethren. Thanks for this important topic!

  308. Thank you so much what believers have shared. This has greatly encouraged me.
    I too am churchless but have fellowship with like minded believers in homes.
    I once attended a lively penecostal church which told me to leave due to their change of direction and teachings.
    So sad where churches are heading as with Great Britain where I live and is under the judgement of God.

  309. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    John, you aren’t “churchless.” You’re institution-less. That’s a good thing, not bad.

    See the common theme here: folks can’t see or be the church in all of its New Testament manifestation because of some institution standing in the way, saying, Over here: WE’RE the church! and some man (or men) saying, Follow me; I’m God’s ordained church leader.
    May I suggest that we quit LOOKING FOR church and just start BEING the church wherever we are?

  310. Andrew Feb 25th 2013

    Very sad when there is no sound and anointed teaching to be found in fellowship after fellowship.

    My comment is-

    We need a new move of God!! A great reformation!
    And we need new anointed teachers and preachers to arise, as happened in the Book of Acts and throughout every major Revival!!

    I have no doubt that God has a plan. But I also do not doubt that we are going to see more and more apostasy.

    Revival in the midst of judgments
    and Revival in the midst of apostasy.

    That is the best we can hope for in these dark days.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  311. Pastor Keith………………be blessed.
    Preach the word…………….be instant in season , out of season.
    Let us focus on Christ, and let us evangelize the gosple.
    sharing with others. doing more for others.
    Living in Christ, by His power. and Praising the LORD
    for his mercies daily.
    To the LORD be all glory……………..
    TO the LORD be all Praise. And come whatever may
    whether through sufferings , or song, to GOD be all glory.
    ALL affections above. This is not our HOME.
    we look for the city to come………………
    Please have the lilttle flock pray for me
    that utterance be given that i speak as i ought
    and that in all things said and done…………..TO GOD be the glory.
    I may not know you all………………..but
    i am Family. FOR all who LOVE the LORD in spirit and truth
    are FAMILY. Email me and let me be included in yalls prayers
    and good works unto GOD. Let us FOCUS on CHRIST and live by EVERY word of GOD. Its so WONDERFUL to hear
    of others, no matter how little the group, that LOVE the LORD
    and want to walk by faith , and be pleasing unto him.
    Who LOVE the good sound doctrines that make us wise unto our salvatoin through our faith in CHRIST. any who LOVES the LORD in sincerity ……………..is my family.
    my email is [email protected]

  312. Andrew Feb 25th 2013

    And by the way, any true move of God will raise up the WHOLE BODY to minister also.

    Bless you!


  313. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Thank you for that, Andrew. No doubt what you say is true. But isn’t it really a separate issue from “I can’t find a church”? The single greatest reason – if not the ONLY reason – why God doesn’t send revival, IMHO, is that the fake, phony institutional church has everybody so busy playing at churchianity – including listening to “good preaching” – that the church can’t hear Him!

  314. Andrew Feb 25th 2013

    PenBen – On they Day of Pentecost, the Revival involved an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit and mighty anointed preaching by Peter. These were both important.

    Such preaching has been at the heart of most true Revivals.

    And many times they were preaching to “church” people.

    Bless you!


  315. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Granted, Sir, but, again, what does that have to do with “Can’t find a church”?

  316. Andrew Feb 25th 2013

    Only a move of God of a similar kind can restore the church to real New Testament Christianity.

    All history proves this to be the case.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  317. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Andrew, preaching is proclaiming the gospel. In other words, it’s for the lost (primarily.) It is effectively aimed at “church” people, then, when the “churches” are full of lost people. When the “church” itself is man-made and pretending to be THE pathway to God, the presence of the lost is a given and such preaching – a Holy Spirit call to saving repentance – is needed. But it won’t be to save the phony church; it will condemn that harlot. So it won’t likely come from within the phony institution but from outside. You could yourself be such a catalyst. Will you … or will you defend the institution?

  318. For my husband and I, we were meeting with others in a house weeknights living the gospel, making disciples, and experiencing dynamic Christian fellowship and love. Simultaneously we were attending a normal Sunday morning church. Eventually, we realized the power and life we were looking for was in the home meetings but not in the regular “church” meetings. After a few years, our group has grown and looks more like a “normal” church. We have to fight hard not to become complacent and to continue in the reality and power we experienced as a body in those early days. Now I realize that what we were doing from the beginning (almost accidentally) was what Christ intended church to be.

    Part of the reason people can’t find a church is they don’t really know what they are looking for, because they may have never really experienced authentic NT Christianity. They are looking for someone who “preaches the word” but Christ’s Church is far more than the preaching of truth (though that is very important). I think when believers realize they are looking for personal transformation (the result of a gospel based church fellowship) not just theologically correct information that they can agree with, they will be able to find a fellowship. Start by meeting in your own home, praying, reading the word, repenting of sin in your lives, and experiencing transformation in your marriage and family. Then begin to ask the Lord to lead you to other believers. Be honest and sober about where you are at. Do you need transformation, leadership? Ask God to bring a body where there are more mature believers who can help you. Are you positioned in a place of character, holiness, and maturity where you can lead? Perhaps God is calling you to start a home church, to start committing your time and resources to making disciples in your community. Whatever spot you are in, God will definitely not leave you in a lonely, fruitless place, because that is not His way. God has fellowship and love for His children in the context of a local church based in the gospel focussed on personal transformation and the making of disciples.

  319. Finding a church is easy. Finding one that models Biblical Christianity is much more difficult. American’s have been blessed to ride a wave or waves of the Holy Spirit that have sustained us. Now we search for answers in a places where the Spirit has long since departed. However, like Elijah, we are NOT the only one left. We are convinced there are many committed to seeing another move of God in America. Our focus is to identify them and bring them together – especially those who have a role in the fivefold ministry.

  320. I faithfully attended a spirit filled church from 1973 to 1989 when the pastor led us into deception, was over controlling and we were manipulated and abused spiritually. Since then I have read the Bible to see what is in there for myself and studied various topics and taken numerous Bible classes and courses. But I can not find a church home. They are performance oriented, light, immature, no move or presence of the spirit, no worship– just loud music with no worship content, no real fellowship, no word that is in depth to any measure and no commitment to living righteously or they are religious hype, Pharisaic, want to reinvent the Old Covenant, emotionalism, manipulation, a performance or a control freak or allow ministers to have affairs. We even had a pastor that was Italian get mad and said it is ok for it is how Italians are. I miss church and in depth meaningful worship and fellowship but I just find ritual, KJV Only, one ditch after the other and have given up. So I take grief that I am out of God’s will to be outside of God’s perfect will and I am forsaking the assembling it goes on and on. I listen to teachers at bible studies give out hints as to how I should be In Fellowship. I just tune them out anymore. If the Lord ever had a chance to show up in a church and actually minister to his people via worship, the word etc…I would be the first one in line. But that has not happened yet. I read my word, I pray and feel I am ok with God and I do not want to become what I would if I sat under these lukewarm ministers.

  321. Marilyn Crow Feb 25th 2013

    Richard Savage -Thanks, will reply soon.

    Beth Cavete – Appreciated your comments & good points.


    I agree that God is preparing us for His next move. The anointed prophets, teachers, etc are being prepared in God`s school of the Spirit & God`s work through you is a great example. Others will emerge in God`s timing & we will be astounded at what our Great Lord & Saviour will accomplish through us all. (as you said)

    Great days ahead amid great conflict, for the greatest battle (of Truth) has yet to be unleashed & then we`ll know what the fire is like –
    – the burning fire of God`s Holy presence in us in a greater way,
    – & the searing fire of persecution of the enemy through others.

    Time to get prepared & work through the junk, the things that are weighing us down. Great to know there are many of us, it so gladdens the heart & gives us a glimpse that God is on the move.

  322. Brenda Feb 25th 2013

    I too am out of the institutionalized church. I have tried a few around my area but have felt like God is just telling me to sit still and wait. That’s what we are doing. The reason I’m commenting is b/c Andrew said we need a new move of God, true revival. That is going to include repentance and turning from sin not including it in our lives.
    I really feel like God has sidelined me to prepare me for the future in America. I think he will have true Christians not be afraid to speak the truth at any cost. When everything around us begins to crash (in every country in the world) those who don’t know Jesus are going to be searching for answers. Are we prepared or are we filled with fear ourselves? I think the organized churches are deceiving their members and will be accountable. They are afraid of truth b/c they could lose members and members are money. Understand that I know this isn’t every church but it is the majority. I’m tired of business as usual. I will never return to all the activity that the “churches” require when most of it isn’t winning souls or training deciples. I still tithe to persecuted Christians, orphans, and places that feed the hungry. I try to make sure people have Bibles and ask God to lead me to those who need me. It is important to ask ourselves if we are still doing God’s work to bring in the harvest or are we just sitting home. I am the temple of the Holy Spirit and pray that God’s light is shining in my life. I hope everyone reading this strives to do more for Jesus to build the true church.

  323. Marilyn Crow Feb 25th 2013

    Hi Brenda, It`s great to hear your heart & I believe there are so many of us learning to be obedient.

    Outside my window I can feel the dry & humid air. The gum trees & birds & us humans are waiting for the rain which we hope will soon come.

    This is so like our hearts in the spiritual & we know that as we continue to seek the Lord, His wonderful rain will come.

  324. Sandra G. Feb 25th 2013

    Be blessed. The word of God will be fulfilled, all that HE said will be accomplished, in HIS timing. Churches today have fallen away, they are as apostate as you can get. Even the ones in small communities have become like the televangelist, it’s all about how many are in the pews, and how much is in the offering plate. The Preachers talk more about what they did yesterday, and their plans for tomorrow than about Jesus. I don’t say not go to church, if by chance you find one that preaches Christ, and HIM crucified, and the love HE wants us to share, as well as HIM coming physically to gather HIS church, then praise God for HIS guidance. As far as gathering in a house, in my humble opinion this can be just as edifying as sitting in a pew, where 2 or 3 are gathered there am I also. It matters not where you are, for the Lord will be there, be it in a house, in the desert, or under a fig tree. So let us follow in Jesus’
    footsteps, and not be trampled under with the traditions of men, or be like the pharisees who were long winded wanting to be heard by men, for they have their reward, it is better to say 3 words in praise to the Lord, than to say 300 to make oneself look Godly. Love HIM, Read HIS word, and see it through HIS eyes, trust only HIM, for HE is the only way, gather together when possible with like minded believers, but above all love one another as HE loved us. May all have the peace that only HE can give. Blessings to all, In HIS light,

  325. David Marsh Feb 25th 2013

    Dear GaryB,
    From your previous post you are wondering how the ekklesia works. It is a very good question but the scripture does show the answer to this question. I would be very pleased to send you ( or anyone else ) a free copy of my research on this subject. For your consideration.
    [email protected]

    God Bless

    David Marsh.

  326. Melanie Feb 25th 2013

    My husband and I were members and attended a thriving church until so called christian leaders of the charismatic movement were invited by the leadership to come in and have their say which direction should take.
    Our church had home groups which members attended where we had fellowship during the week. Our home group leaders made sure that we were biblical based and cared for each other.
    In one sweep the home group leaders were replaced. We as a home group were left in limbo for a while. New home group leaders replaced them and suddenly we were taken into a different direction whereby what was taught and preached at the main service at church, we had to discuss and make way for the home group to follow. Try listening to a home group sermon based on the church direction that was being taken.
    Restorationism and dominionism ran the leadership of our church which was very much influencing the three church pastors. And why? It was said from the front that the Holy Spirit was doing something new and we had to follow the instructions given by the visiting preachers who were hob knobbing with the three pastors.
    They dispensed with street evangelism, the commission given by the Lord Jesus, and getting involved with the community. All because God was supposingly doing something new.
    Entertainment to attract bums on seats was introduced as with singing new choruses over and over again to bring down the Holy Spirit into the church services. Later they embraced the Toronto Blessing by impartation from christian celebrities who had visited the Vineyard Church in Toronto,Canada, and allowed this demonic manifestation to thrive by imparting it on to every Tom, Dick, Harry, and womenfolk inside and ouitside of church.
    Prophecies were given that our city would be taken for Jesus. That was way back in 1986 and then in the 90s.
    My husband and I left due to members ostracising us and being told to leave as we were living in the past – God was doing something new!
    We left in 1986 never to return. We were ignored on the streets and in many circumstances not spoken to. Even the senior pastor made excuses not to speak to my husband. He even crossed over the side of the street to avoid speaking to him.
    This pastor moved into a local house not far from where we lived. He lived there for two years and did not wish to speak to my husband. He and his wife then moved to a private housing estate from where we lived which has its own security and one cannot visit without by invitation.
    So there you have regarding what the modern church has become. This church is well known amongst within the christian church but going back to the church having been told by the Holly Spirit to do this new thing, it has nothing to do with the spirit of Almighty God or Jesus his son.
    For it is just doing its own thing in the sight of Almighty God as what goes on throughtout christendom when people take the name of the Lord Jesus in vain.
    Reminds me on what cults and christian sects do to those who question direction and teaching.

  327. Pastor Keith Feb 25th 2013

    This will be my final comment on this thread and topic which Andrew has raised about church systems which have replaced christianity and have become apostate. I have every empathy why believers are finding difficult to remain going to church when another gospel is being preached are people are being forced to compromise the teachings of Christ.

    Come ye out from amongst them is the instruction from God’s word if you are taking heed.

    “Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honour Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” Matthew 15: 7-9

    Isaiah saw this happening in his age, Jesus affirmed it was happening when He walked this earth. It is also happening in this day and age, and is part of the great final apostasy of these last days. The word ‘HYPOCRITE’ means ‘ACTOR’ and describes a person who appears to be one thing but really is another.

    Often, the title HYPOCRITE is wrongly applied to somebody who is not always living up to the standard of his profession, but that is not a correct use of the term. Many of us fail at times to live up to the standard of our profession, even though we may be a genuine real Christian. A HYPOCRITE is one who is acting out the role of a real Christian, when in fact they are not. They are not genuinely a saved, born again Christian.

    If a person does not have a real love of the truth, and they say they are a Christian, they are really a HYPOCRITE. You cannot be a genuine, real, BORN AGAIN Christian and not have a LOVE OF THE TRUTH. So many are in the category today. They honour the Lord with their lips – saying all the right things – sounding like a Christian – Yet their heart is far from Him. Instead of having a love for THE TRUTH, they hold onto man made doctrines that are not found in the Bible. They make a lot of noise in their worship, singing endless modern worship songs, usually together with a ‘so called’ worship band that may be note perfect, but they worship IN VAIN.

    “I hate, I despise your feasts days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not hear the melody of thy viols” Amos 5: 21+23

    Unless we love the truth, and worship truly in Spirit and in truth, our worship is not acceptable to God.

    Real Christians need to come out of these religious entertainment centres that they call Churches. Real fellowship with the Lord’s genuine people will not be found among them. It absolutely amazes me what goes on in these establishments in the name of Christianity. People having their itching ears tickled with the rubbish that they want to hear instead of seeking after God’s TRUTH which will no doubt, condemn the lies they practise.

    “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” Matt. 15:9

    The false doctrines taught by these temples in Christendom do not originate in the word of God. It takes just a little ‘poison’ to do untold spiritual damage. Man made doctrines and Church traditions won’t save you.

    Jesus accused the people of His day of giving Him lip service, but not doing the things He said.

    “And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” Luke 6:46

    If we love the truth, we will love His precious word, we will ‘drink it in’ and ‘live it out’. It will be an offence to our spiritual ears to sit under the false teaching in Christendom today. How about you? Are you comfortable listening to the drivel that will pour from many a pulpit today? If you love truth, it will be an offence to you and you will want no part of it. If you are genuinely SAVED, A REDEEMED CHILD OF GOD, the the Holy Spirit lives within you. He will make you feel very uncomfortable at listening to false doctrines & teachings from the mouths of the HYPOCRITES, pretending to be God’s ministers.

    “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” 2 Corinthians 11: 13-15

    Brotherly love….Pastor Keith

  328. The Lord has given ways of communicating His word and the Good News of His son the Lord Jesus Christ and yet many who attend or go to church have failed to do so. Instead, they prefer to sits on their backsides expecting other christians to do this for them.
    It is no wonder they wallow in deception unable to distiquish what is biblical and what man made with Satan at the helm with him being an angel of light.
    Christians used to keep in touch by telephone – they no longer do so.
    Christians used to write to each by letter – they no longer do so.
    Christians used to use e-mail as a contact point – they no longer do so.
    Christians used to visit one another – they no longer do so.
    Christians used to welcome visitors – may be at the front door of churches – but after the service has ended, fail to talk to them afterwards.
    Christians used to take the message of the Gospel onto the streets – they no longer do so.
    It is a shame what christians fail to do in the 21st century and are so preoccupied in modernising the christian church to the extent that the church has lost its identity and has pushed the commission aside.
    When I have walked through the door of what is called a christian church, I have found not much love towards me from its members. After the service has ended, people go into their cliques, talk about the world, and do not come along side of those who may be in need both spiritual and physical. Unless I talk to them those in church do not talk to me. For I have to get their attention to start up a conversation.
    That is one reason why my husband does not go to church because the church won’t go to him.
    I do not go to church anymore as it have nothing to offer me. The church does not feed me, pray for my husband and I, and has no interest unless I become one of its members and sow my “financial seed” to their cause.
    It is no wonder that “communication” has broken down between the church and God Almighty. The church must be on a different wave length and is not tuned to listen to Him anymore.
    So sad and very much true in the Last Days.
    Sarah, a sister in Christ.
    PS Thank you brother Andrew, Pastor Keith and believers for your comments.
    I cannot see “revival” withour repentance taking place in the church or the country I live in when God Almighty is mocked.

  329. watchful Feb 25th 2013

    oh bless you and thank you Lord Jesus for opening our eyes, may we by your grace finish this race to your glory, amen.

  330. fabakary Feb 25th 2013

    Love your neighbor as yourself , be like the good Samaritan , who never flee , like those with a wrong attitude . when the thief wounded the man traveling to Jericho others, do not come near . they gave their judgment but never brought healing. What are you doing about the wounds that the enemy, the thief has done or is doing doing in others ? the priest and the levite came and just gave a Look, to the wounded man. By Looking they saw the wrong, that is judgment, but the seeing of wrong was not enough, and that never justify them in the sight of God. Oh maybe they taught he was wounded for his sins . but at lest even if there judgment was wrong , they never respond positively to help, they had a divisive , mindset. He is not one of us, why even touch him ? The good Samaritan saw the wrong and did somethings about it . It is amazing that by such act the lord says he was a neighbor. They do not have to be in the same country, area , community to be a neighbor. Love will unites the farthest hearts . And Jesus after giving the parable told the listeners “Go and do likewise”. You do not have to bring them , into your “movement” , out of their houses (churches), no condemn them. And if love will permit you , you can go as far as where they are , whether in building, deserts Just to show Love to your neighbor.what your neighbor need is medicine , and that medicine could be prayer of intercession, showing some love to those that you can come in contact with you . Dont fight the non living things(the buildings, lands etc ) cant be a hindrance to your walk as a neighbor. You cant be a neigbour by mere Looking, seeing what the enemy has done to this or that, and the falseness of this or that and with a divisive mindset like that priest and levite cant help it . Be like the good Samaritan, you can give help without their resistance, once such laws is prayer and interceding,even meeting the wounded where he is . But beware after all your looking or judgement may still be wrong. Love your Neighbor .

  331. John S Feb 25th 2013

    To Andrew, Pastor Keith and to Sarah.

    So true in what has been shared. I look forward to be taken Home to be with HIm. In the meantime, brethren who are following Jesus must be in Him for His instructions to be carried out. Anything else is counterfeit!
    Praise the Lord for His Salvation and Redemption!!!!!!!

  332. Andrew, just a few thoughts, I first would say that I read and was greatly touched by your “out of church christians” writing. I also am somewhat amused by many of the responses. Yes, as you stated in your book, there is a major problem in Christendom. But you know what, there has been major dilemma in much of our history. If all of the “out of church” folks that have passed through our doors would have had half a heart for church life and been willing to be the church, we would have a very large and thriving congregation right now. Oh but then, we would have crossed over those other dangerous borders such as having meetings in a ministry building i.e. church building, and become too large to be a “new testament church”. There is so much critique, and I don’t mind critique, in our times that that is all some people know. As an elder-teacher in a church that had the opportunity to start from the ground up, walking in covenant relationships, apostolic foundations, etc., I have discovered that many of the problems we point at in the larger denominations and non-denominational world still are present in the very small “house”, storefront, backyard, wherever assemblies. Only difference is that in these small assemblies the problems are more magnified, more disruptive, and more destructive. Many times I’ve seen these assemblies basically spiral into congregational fruitlessness. Don’t have time to write a real extensive and coherent response here, but I agree with some of the earlier responses. You want to have a church, start one. Find one person, one family that you can walk with. Discuss the meaning of church life. If you can come to some point of agreement with them, covenant before God to walk together and grow in the Christ together and practice the laws of the body of Christ. You will begin discovering what you are made of. You will begin discovering so many differences that it will blow your mind, especially if you are a strong family person and believe that you have a handle on family life. You also will find out how detrimental a critical spirit is. Every word you utter in criticism of other congregations and denominations will try you. Then you will probably become as many that have written on this post, incapable of walking together with other members of the body of Christ. A KJV word used in Romans1:31 “implacable” meaning incapable of keeping covenant with others, has become all too true of many believers. I was given a book a few years ago called “Covenant Relationships” by a guy named Keith Intrater. Many of the conclusions he wrote of we as church had already come to. But it meant a lot to have confirmation.

  333. Pastor Keith, Sarah, Melanie & Andrew
    So much of what you said here in these posts before this one is my experience and it helps fortify me to know that what I am convinced of is true. Unless there is repentance in the church, true worship, and richly taught Word there is no reason for me to attend.
    We too experienced the absolute rejection at churches. I have had my hand shook and the promise to come and visit and to receive nothing. I once got invited to attend a ladies meeting in a ladies home to not have one person acknowledge my presence except the dutiful pastor’s wife said one sentence to me. I sat there all evening untouched by fellowship. I stopped attending that one asap and then saw the pastor later while standing in line to get our driver’s license renewed. I told him my experience in a loving and respectful manor only to have him ignore me for the rest of the wait.
    Our leaders in our first church when saved, fell into deception and took us with them until our conscience could no longer be ignored. My husband said we kept putting our Q’s on the shelf as the pastor directed until the shelf got too heavy.
    I am so glad for this posting by Andrew, I am in the right company. Just this weekend I went to a scrapbook group that is held in a huge church in my small town that I only attend bible studies on occasion. They had an anniversary dinner after church the next day. I noticed the helpers that come to set things up. Helpers that believe they found what they need in this church. It is hard to explain what I saw in their actions. But I once felt I belonged and was serving Christ via serving a church and a pastor. It hurts me to see others believe this that can only be hurt and disappointed later on. The feeling is devastating. Once trust is broken it is not easily restored. Yet churches do not care enough to try to restore they would rather shoot you down or just plain not be bothered at all. Lord help them as they use or wound the sheep instead of feed them. There are some pretty hard words towards church leaders that do not feed the sheep but use them in Zech & other places. It is no wonder why sheep wander without a shepherd. My girlfriend after leaving our church that went into deception wrote an article she titled Wandering Sheep. If anyone is interested I will send it to you.

  334. kim gilbert Feb 25th 2013

    There’s an old hymn that says: “Brighten the corner where you are.” Be the light, be the joy, be the undergirder and helper and lifter. Don’t look for a place with a lot of light to add your light…just brighten the corner where you are and you may find one soul, lift one heart to stay in the battle for truth.

    it isn’t the healthy who need a physician…but the sick.

  335. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Where in the New Testament are we taught that a purpose or function of the church is worship and “richly taught Word”? Visits? Ladies’ meetings? Scrapbook groups? A “pastor” with humanly-defined responsibilities? Could it be, alamoaa, that you are expecting “the church” to be something that it is not and can never in truth be and, thus, to do things that only what it pretends to be in other contexts can do? YOU are the church. You cannot GO TO church. “Pastor” is a gift, NOT an office, and you have as much responsibility to minister to him as he does to you. He is not your boss. He is not your (up front, giving orders) leader. As a shepherd, he is your SERVANT. And we are to serve each other in love. THAT is church.

    Now, again, could we share ideas about how we can find each other in our local communities without having first to darken the door of some institution that has hijacked the name “church”?

  336. Matt Ziemer Feb 25th 2013

    Jesus is Lord, the head of his body the church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. What an incredible privilege and blessing it is to be part of the family of God, to be joined with the Three!
    No one can “join” a church. We are joined to the body by the working of the Holy Spirit thorugh faith in the shed blood of Jesus. Anyone who “joins” a church is following man’s ideas not God’s.
    Jesus mentioned Church only twice, once in reference to the universal body/family gathering of all believers and once in reference to the local church in the city. Every reference to church in the Acts and in the letters echoes this exactly. In other words there are only 2 expressions of church/assembly. One is comprised of all believers in Jesus spiritually who stand before the throne who are all those born from above and are a part of the family of God. The other expression of church is comprised of those in any given city who are believers in Jesus, these make up the local ekklesia. Any church larger then the local church (which is made up of all believers in a greater city) and smaller then the universal church is a sect and any church smaller then the local church is a sect. In other words any trans city/country denomination is a fabrication of man and unscriptural and any local fellowship wihich does not see itself as part of the whole of the local assembly of believers is a sect. There shoud be many fellowships within a city but only one local church.

    Therefore if you have been born again through faith in Jesus you already have been added to the body of Christ universal. If you henceforth live in a greater city you are a member of that local church and are free to fellowship wherever the Spirit leads you to gather.(homes,street,bars,restaurants, or temples).
    If you are disenchanted by goings on at a particular fellowship you are not alone and are probably not in sin. Just remember that whether you stay or leave that group you are are part of the believers who gather there, and while you live in that city you have a resposibility to all believers living there to love them and encourage them and work with them as far as is possible.
    If we would simply accept God’s prescription for church a lot of mans selfish ambition would disappear and the world would finally once again see that we are his disciples by our love one for another.

  337. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Amen, Matt!

  338. PenBen Well said. When I mentioned the scrapbook group we have met in hospital convention rooms etc…this church is gracious enough to let us use it free for a donation. I did not qualify that.
    But you are correct the NT in the formative yrs did not mention ladies studies etc.at the time they were under persecution and meeting in homes and at river sides etc…..but it does mention worship (assuming it was directed towards God and not elevating the song leader) and messages from the word were done. Paul and Eutychus for example. I may have possibly been after a hard day work as it was midnight and Paul was talking and got long winded till midnight. I assume he was hungry for the word enough to stay up after his bedtime and thus fell out the 3 story window. The pt is he was there and the word was being shared. I dare say Paul was not like our modern teachers. He was direct and to the pt and all over the place esp when he was leaving the next morning and had much to leave with them before he departed.
    I have given my life to serve a pastor and a ministry in an institution and no more. I do have ministries that I support and have my own ministries. I am busy. But in the institution called church, all I have found in my hunting are they are too formal or something else is wrong. I am just looking for a church that is alive, warm and edifying. I have to further say no I am no longer hunting as I gave up. I have looked for a pastor that is not perfect, but also not now living a double life. You know just things in scripture that are a given to qualify for a minister in Timothy and Titus I need not go over them. I may be looking for the wrong things or as I have been told a “pie in the sky”. But before our pastor led us into deception we had a move of the spirit that led us to alter calls to grow and get rid of sin. We had worship that took us straight to Rev 4 & 5 to bow down and humble ourselves and REVERE HIM.
    I no longer expect visits and would not want lip service anyway. Again that was an unqualified statement. In a visit to a new church there was a member had played in our old barn as a kid and he wanted to come see it and get to know us. It was a warm fuzzy person who seemed serious. But it never happened and i understand being busy. At the time we were new in that community and not only I was seeking friends but others were as well. To get to know one another and build one another up and edify one another meet needs (as we can) is scriptural. They lived in communities in Acts 4ish. Shared as they had need. I do not want to live in a commune either but the communal feeling of fellowship in church would be a nice touch. Not the other I have seen.
    Also I see far too much arrogance, self assured they are in the only great church etc…I am offended by that and maybe it is residue to my being burned in my original church with the double life pastor. Forgive me if I am out of line here. I am just airing out my dirty laundry. I am far from perfect, have enough of my own self to choke a horse at times but I also see Rom 12: 1-4 to get sanctified and right in all ways before God. I have been at it awhile. If I did not have Christ alive in my life with a new creation within– I dare say I would be in a barroom doing as they do. I am ever so grateful that I am happy scrap booking and going to ladies studies compared to what I would be doing outside of Christ.
    Yes we are the church and we are called to give of our means and serve. I do those things but would love to have a “gift” to me in servitude as you said pastors are. And they are to be. My question is where are they? If I have any smoke left on me from the fall of our church and the humiliation we went thru etc..I apologize and also repent again to the Lord. ‘For me to live is Christ’ and to hear ‘Well done…’ is my cry. I do all I can in the midst of my disappointments to not miss His call when He comes. I just want more than milk toast in church. I am not a babe needing a bottle any longer I need something more substantial. Lord, forgive me if I am wrong and if I am wrong, get me right.

  339. Amen to those WHO LOVE the TRUTH of our LORD JESUS…….
    Good healthy sound doctrine, a pure love of every word of GOD.
    THY word O LORD is a lamp unto my Feet……….
    Christ the anchor of my soul…………….the HOPE
    which endures…………………the salvation to be revealed at HIS COMING. HOLD on to the LOVE of the truth………..
    CLING to wholesome words of CHRIST…………..
    for the end of all things………………….the coming of Our LORD
    draws ever nigh. HOPE in HIM…………and set all affections above on HIM. OUR LIGHT…………………..
    Blessed be he who comes in the name of the LORD.
    and the remnant KNEW this when CHRIST rode in on a DONKEY.
    IF another comes claiming HE is christ………….
    HEAR him NOT……………………..FOR our LORD shall
    appear as quick as the twinklling of an eye…………….
    IF they say…………behold he has desecened from the HIMALYAS
    HEAR THEM NOT………………if they claim he is a man of all faiths
    HEAR THEM NOT…………….for the false Christ of all times
    is on the rise and soon will decieve any and all
    who have REJECTED the LOVE of the TRUTH.
    THE TRUTH will not be found in the reasonings of men
    nor in rick warrnes and others new books……………
    THE ONE BOOK which HOLDS absolute truth……….is ONLY
    the BIBLE. and we need not a man who is studied in greek
    to make known the truth of scriptures………….
    FOR THEY greek keeps changing to fit the world.
    WE NEED ONLY the HOLY SPIRIT as our guide to give us
    the true understanding of the scrips.
    BUILD thy HOUSE upon the ROCK, CHRIST
    all else is sinking , and sinking fast.
    amen. There are still those who LOVE the TRUTH
    and GOD shall gather them in lil flocks etc…………
    AND together iN CHRIST…………..they shall ENDURE
    the MASS of APOSTACY, the final dark hour upon earth.
    FOR soon this hour comes and is nigh uppon us .
    And has long been at work and soon hits the climax
    of the ultimate betryal of the lambs of GOD.
    SOON she goes viral……………..and as the system of her
    has long corrupted many, and many anti christs have been
    and now are…………ONLY SOON the dark one will lead all
    anti christs against the TRUE BRIDE………….behold
    the final hour is nigh upon us all…………….
    GREAT persecutions are coming upon the BRIDE…………
    Great betrayals are coming. The time for all lambs
    to come together to endure this last hour is NOW.
    Be blessed. I love you all, i pray for us all…………..

  340. Averyl Feb 25th 2013

    Andrew said, – “We need a new move of God!! A great reformation!”

    I have just finished reading a book I picked up from a junk shop, – “The Present Reformation of the Church” by Noel Woodroffe.
    The NAR people believe that what Andrew cries out for is already happening.

  341. PenBen Feb 25th 2013

    Folks, this is a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY. Here, right now, this conversation, is an opportunity for us to put some stakes down, to identify once and for all who and what is the church, AND to discuss some methods whereby we can identify each other and come together locally to serve each other. Most here would agree, I think, at least conceptually, that an institution calling itself “church” which is NOT the church can distract the real church from being the church, focusing us instead on someone or something else outside of ourselves. But now, especially in this internet age of advanced and instant communication, can we utilize these technologies to find and communicate with each other and as a catalyst to bring us together locally, face to face, where we can BE the church together? That is what I saw as the opportunity here at the beginning of this discussion.

  342. Averyl Feb 25th 2013

    Regardless, I am still not seeing mature saints healed or the bound released. Why is this???

  343. Andrew Feb 25th 2013

    Averyl – that movement calls inself the “New Apostolic Reformation”. I only wish we did have a real move along these lines. Then there would be real change.

    But sadly I have concluded that one is not truly “New” in any way, not truly “apostolic”, and not at all a “Reformation”.



  344. Marilyn Crow Feb 25th 2013


    Yes it is a wonderful opportunity to share here & read of what God`s Holy Spirit has been doing in our lives. This is the stage of sharing our experiences & views on many topics & issues that have had no expression sitting in pews. The Body of Christ needs to express what God is doing in it (our lives) & also to see if some of what we believe is really the truth.

    As alamoaa said with such a heart cry `I am not a babe needing a bottle any longer. I need something more substantial.` God has heard you alamoaa & He will give us `meat,` a wonderful greater revelation of Himself, His character. His purposes. He is about to open up His word to us in great depth & clarity.

    The rain has come this morning on to our farm. And so we look expectantly, trusting God. How blessed are we.

  345. David Marsh Feb 25th 2013

    Andrew said, – “We need a new move of God!! A great reformation!”

    Yes, we do need a new move of God. A great reformation.

    Interestingly, the 1900’s Christians received a great move of God. God poured out His Holy Spirt and thousands received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    But only a very few rose up to successfully walk with God – in the Power of His Holy Spirit.

    John Dowie, Woodworth-Etter, Roberts, Charles Parham, William Seymour, John G Lake, Wigglesworth, McPherson and Kuhlman to mention just a few.
    And that really was the problem. Just a handful rose up in that mighty outpouring. And the reason there was only a handful was because no one really knew how to really hear or discern what really was the voice of the Holy Spirit ( which is so necessary for walking with Jesus) and neither did any one know the Biblical principles that were required to walk in step with God.

    Consequently the manifestations of the devil were often mixed in with the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and Charles Parham wrote about this concerning Williams Azuza street meetings.

    Many advances for God’s Kingdom were made but God’s Kingdom was also sullied by the ignorance of the day.

    The same problems will come to the fore again with the next outpouring of God’s holy Spirit. Unless the Bride of Christ prepares herself first. Both spiritually AND with the Word of God that explains what these principles are. There is only one book I know of that does explain these principles and you can see some example pages here;


    God bless

    David Marsh.

  346. I didnt get to read ALL the above messages as I think there are over 300!!!! God has placed me in a group of home churches (I like to call them gatherings) under Oikos Ministries here in Louisiana. We have two groups in Wisconsin and a group in Houston area and in Pennsylvania. I have been a part of this since 2006 and I would not go back to the “pyramid” structure again. I have grown more in the past almost 7 years than in the first over 20!!! I KNOW my leadership/elders and they KNOW me. How thankful I am to Him in answering my prayer. Our website is http://housechurchesusa.com ….it will be a start with the information we have to offer about it all. Most of the website is complete. We have a little more to do before putting the information on each group. May all those seeking a Body of Believers who really serve and love be lead to one or connect with those who are already doing it to share their wisdom to start one.

  347. “See, days are coming.” declares the Master Yahweh, “that I shall send a hunger in the land, not a hunger for bread, nor a thirst for water, but for hearing the Words of Yahweh.”‘ Amos 8:11
    The Truth is in The Word(s) of Yahweh. Yahsuah Messiah delivered them to His disciples, and we in turn are called to heed and live our lives by His teachings.
    We must begin moreso to see that individual disciples are the Body of Messiah and therefore must make the decision to leave the world’s churches and it’s man made doctrines and traditions.
    With the power and strength of the Set-apart Spirit we must establish within your homes the fellowship with the Father, Son and Spirit which many disciples of Messianic teachings pant for.

  348. Kem Tillford Feb 25th 2013

    We’ve been on staff at several churches that were run by man’s agenda, no room for God to move unless He does it within leaderships specified perimeters. To many cliques, not enough love. We were led to leave the 4 walls of comfort and of course our “family” stopped contacting us because we were “no longer following the Lord”. Our senior leaders told us our blessings would be removed once we walked out from under their umbrella. Scare tactics and non biblical approaches never worked on us, Jesus is our covering, we knew that. If one walks in the prophetic giftings it’s only allowed if the pastor deems it’s of God. We left the churches, God gave us 2 outreach ministries to low income people and bikers and we’ve stayed faithful to that calling. We needed fellowship to and the Lord provided us with a house church filled with people who are tired of mans agenda in church, those who had been harmed but refused to blame that on God. The Spirit of God runs the house church, we get out of His way and He moves among us. There is no agenda other than to let Him have His way. No titles, just brothers and sisters who love the Lord and each other. Religion shackles us and far to many want to hold the keys to those chains, no thanks, we serve God and Him alone. We’ve been accused of a lot of things over the past years from the ones in those churches, that’s between them and the Lord to deal with because we’ve forgiven and moved on.

  349. Christian journalist Feb 25th 2013

    I thank everyone who has contributed to the discussion and all of the comments made.
    When talking to church members of my local churches I get the impression that, for example, those churches and their leaderships who name and claim it for Jesus but this never materialises, I think to myself why do they keep preaching this false teaching? When members talk to me about what they are going to do, I feel a sadness towards them how much they are being deceived. They ignore persecution which is not for them due to them believing nothing will touch them in achieving their mission. Alas, what will they do when christianity becomes outlawed which will happen during the Great Tribulation for they have no time for other christians only themselves.
    Brethren have mentioned forms of communication in reaching out to the lost. What is needed for today is to communicate the Gospel message while they still can and are able by using methods already available.
    For example, which has already been commented on, is the use of
    1) the telephone which could be landline or mobile
    2) the internet and e-mail
    3) texting
    4) letter writing
    5) talking and sharing
    6) the use of face book and twitter
    But I am sorry to have to say, not many christians in our churches get involved by using these methods in expressing Christ in their lives. In my experience, people prefer to chatter about wordly things, for example, holidays and what is new and who has done this and that.
    And of course people are afraid what political correctness might do to them as christians.
    As a journalist covering controversial subjects, I have been warned that GCHQ ( a government listening post dealing with telephone calls and e-mails sent and received plus now monitoring twitter and face book) has been and is still watching me. This I am now aware of which has been witnessed by brethren at the other end.
    Big Brother is not a figment of our imaginations as this is real and will grow more so as the End Times progresses.
    The falling away is also real as deception takes hold of the modern western christian church where many secular and religious bodies are saying that it should be brought into the 21st century. Surley those taking part in “finding a church” are aware what this means and entails.
    I thank the Lord for not yet being censored in my writings but how long this will last awaits to be seen.
    Two questions I wish to pose to everyone taking part in our discussion are these – are you willingly laying down your life for Christ? And are you willing to lay down your life for your brothers and sisters in Christ?
    Why I say this is because christians whom I have known for many years have abandoned the Faith some of which have betrayed a number of brethren in the process. This is a real situation which will not go away and cannot be swept under the carpet. And they all went to evangelical churches.

  350. JCBuck Feb 26th 2013

    We have been prayerfully wanting to do just what you have been led to do, lord willing? Buildings and one man pastor systems were NEVER, from what my studies have showed me, part of the New Testament. This is a man-made system. I hear many of you protecting this system as it is what has been passed down to you over the years, you know no better. I minister to many folks out there, and the ones who come from the church system, from my personal experience, look at me” like a deer in the headlights” when I start presenting the Gospel. They have no idea at all what I am talking about!!! Isaiah 61, may as well forget it!!! You pastors take it upon yourselves to be the only ones operating in any type of gift, while the rest sit back and daydream.. Where are the gifts operating through anyone in this setting? What about I Corinthians 14:26? It only operates when EVERYBODY is participating. Seriously, these buildings,parking lots, youth centers etc are NOT supposed to be the financial focus, but giving to the poor.. Everything is so out of whack!! But I realize that there is no getting through to those who have made a church building their “God”, been there done that too many times.. Anyway like what many of you have to say, I am not alone in this world..

  351. This is easy – Christ said He will build His church. Has he stopped building? Find a church that Christ is building – they’re out there. Remember too that the church isn’t without spot or blemish. Love does cover a multitude of sin. The church isn’t meant to tickle our fancy – we commit, we build despite its imperfections. There aren’t too many startling theological differences to warrant dividing the body of Christ. There is power in unity – the devil knows this and his strategy is to divide. My advice is to become Kingdom minded and lay down your life for God’s purpose and not insist on your own. God’s purpose is to build the church. Join a church and pray for the inconsistencies you see – don’t leave it. Christ loves His church and doesn’t want you to leave. Get back – the church obviously needs people to pray into it. 🙂

  352. @ Sidah, there is rampant deception in MANY places…soundness can be very hard to find. Most of these people have tried everything they can, but *she will not be healed*. I commend those that have stepped forward towards a NT expression of His church…

  353. Andrew, I have backtracked and read your comments regarding anointed preaching. I have wonderful friends who have sat under some of the finest preaching I have ever heard. They are lovely people, and love the Lord, but they are not a lot different from anyone I know that loves the Lord in whatever venue. It ALWAYS comes down to the individual person, the responsibility we take for actually knowing God, hearing His voice and walking in obedience. That is the problem in most venues, house church or traditional church, anointed speakers or not….we sit and wait for someone to feed us or do the stuff. In Rev. ch. 3 for our church age (if ones interprets it that way) it says *Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me*. We must begin to look at this thing as nobody’s fault but our own, and our response to all that God has done and said.

  354. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    Sidah, we aren’t to “find a church.” There are not different churches (as Matt Z so well described above); there are only local manifestations of THE church. We don’t find “it” – we BE it, hopefully by finding the other members of the church who are local to us. You’ll have a very hard time finding them “in church” on Sunday, though. If they’re “there,” the thing that put “there” there will fight you tooth and nail to keep them there where they can’t do him any harm. And no: there is not power in unity; there is power in our differences. Read I Cor. 14. Different gifts, not all the same.

  355. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher. It’s not about the preacher.

  356. Marilyn Crow Thank you. I know the Lord hears all our cries to be free of the institution that is weak and in my opinion ready for the great falling away. We must be taught and taught rich meaty meals. Meals that will help us stand when the times get real tough. But where are the teachers to teach the babes so they do not stay babes long? Where is the deep intimate fellowship where we KNOW one another and therefore can encourage one another to stand and grow? Where is the deep intimate worship where we tell the Lord how wonderful He is and all eyes are on Him not us? it goes on and on and many here are far more eloquent than I in expressing the heart and intent of the Lord with His chosen ones. It is refreshing to me to find so many that are strong in the word and I agree with PenBen we need some sort of organization to find where we all live to form house meetings. But it must be done not by might nor by power but by My Spirit says the Lord of Hosts. I miss the corporate body where there is body ministry edifying one another and growing up in His statutes and shedding our old carnal selves. I for one will say this much here in this forum I am in NM.

  357. Marilyn Crow Feb 26th 2013

    I do also alamoaa but in the Lord am working on the relationships around & as you said it will be by His Holy Spirit.

    God leads us on. Marilyn.

  358. Marilyn Crow Feb 26th 2013

    Have we ever wondered why the Lord Jesus Christ has led us this way? We know that it is not an oops!

    As the Lord is building us individually into His likeness, He is also setting us together in the Body by His Holy Spirit – some ligaments, some joints etc.

    I see that man has tried to put the `Body,` together but now the Lord is attending to that important part of the `building together.`

    We have mostly all been through the Lord`s other ` building` moves – Baptism of the Holy Spirit, developing spiritual giftings, recognising true ministry, & discerning truth & error.

    This next stage of the Lord `building,` as He hasn`t finished yet, is to bring the `various parts, closely joined & firmly knit together by the joints & ligaments with which it is supplied, when each part (with power adapted to its need) is properly working (in all its functions) grows to full maturity, building itself up in love.`
    (Eph. 4: 16 Amplified)

    We are the blessed ones whom the Lord will bring others to form together….this working properly.

    With any new move of God there is always the few, then more until it is fully recognisable. And as we know it always involves suffering, pain & discouragement, because then we only trust Him.

    Any thought there? Marilyn.

  359. fabakary Feb 26th 2013

    We hear words like “we are the blessed ” “we are the true church ” etc from some comments above. It may be true that those that wrote such comments are truly blessed or part of the “true church “, but it is because they feed on Christ , has His life , and live through him. The true church is birthed by the spirit, you do not have to run here or there to find it, it is indeed in Christ. If you think you are blessed , it should be because you are in Christ. Your geographical location, whether you are in the desert, or palace, is not what define you as part of the true church. It is wrong to Judge who is , and who is not part of the true church , by where he is , or where he goes geographically. Oh can remember sometimes ago, when I taught finding those outside a system , will be the answer. But experience have taught me , that was never the issue , no never but Christ. Remember the church is build in the wilderness , but it is a spiritual wilderness, where all the effort of the flesh , cant help but Christ. You see the bride is made by living in Christ, not because see is here or there geographically. The one that feeds on Christ will walk in love and partake in his suffering , and will not be discourage , or condemn his neighbor because of the darkness in him but will be a source of healing , intercession for the freedom of his neighbor. He has no issue with none living things like buildings , whether they are or not is not his problem , but he is sent to build people, whether they are in the building, desert, etc His is to give out Christ Love, a light for those in darkness.Love thy neighbor.

  360. Marilyn Crow Feb 26th 2013

    That is right fabakery we are truely blessed because we feed on Christ amid the pain, & suffering.

  361. I am considered an old age pensioner and have been born again for many years.
    I left my church many years ago as the new leadership could not cope with biblical questions that I raised. In fact, many of my age left as we were told that God was doing something new and we were not living for the future and accepting what was said from the front about God doing these new things.
    Now that was some time ago and God had not done these new things which He has not done before.
    What was imparted and introduced was the Toronto Blessing and the erroneous restoration doctrine. Since then, the church has never looked like a New Testament church but a gathering of the blind led by the blind to put it bluntly.
    Having said that this is my expereince on what christians called me as a friend
    they do not keep in touch
    they are too busy to visit and to talk with me
    they cannot be bothered to communicate
    they prefer watching soap operas and football
    they do attend church but only on a Sunday
    they like their three holidays each year
    they are preoccupied with worldy things
    and are looking after number one
    Yes, they may call themselves christians but that is all
    Pensioners like myself have been discarded and left in our homes because we are considered too old for anything.
    Not even a lift to a church.
    So there you have it. Pensioners are left to fend for themselves and I have been told that I am living in the past and do not know what the Lord is doing in this century.

  362. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    Mat 23:8-12: But be not ye called Pastor: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

  363. Richard Savage Feb 26th 2013

    Hello Vince, I’m nearly a pensioner too! My experiences are not unlike yours. I’d like to correspond with you and perhaps we may fill some shared gaps.

    An email address for me is:
    [email protected]

  364. watchful Feb 26th 2013

    Vince, if I may just encourage you dear elder brother, that these are the last days and we are seeing the falling away happen right before our eyes, do not be surprised at the painful trial but wait upon the Lord and trust in Him. Consider yourself blessed indeed to have been rescued and excluded from the spiritual carnage and thank and praise Him! If it is feasible maybe consider gathering informally now and then over a cup of tea to fellowship and pray with some of your fellow pensioners, and pray for those younger ones who are in terrible peril though they don’t know it, and just share the wisdom and love of Christ here and there where it is wanted and needed…..let us stir up the gift that is within us…..if Jesus lives within us then we are never too old or irrelevant for His light to shine……in fact you might say the more “cracks” we have the better as we get older, ha-ha! I have been meditating upon the wonderful blessing and privilege of Anna and Simeon in the temple…………….and that His temple/kingdom is not made of brick and stone, it is within us Jesus said.

    Listen to the truth that came out of your own mouth and be encouraged, it blessed me:

    “Now that was some time ago and God had not done these new things which He has not done before.”

  365. Elizabeth Feb 26th 2013

    I thought God’s word was to take care of the widows’ in church. Alas, that was a long time ago and the church I once went to has fogotten pensioners like myself.
    At least I have a computer and a telephone to use and a television to find out what goes on in the outside world.
    Other than that who in any of my local churches wishes to visit me. That stopped leaving me and many more pensioners living in my street isolated and alone. Very few have visits from family members.
    Perhaps this is what the government means about the old folk becoming expendable to keep costs down whereby later euthanasia will be introduced as a measure. May I give a term for the church which is “spiritual euthanasia.”
    I was recommended to view Andrew Strom’s web site. Glad that I did and made my point of view whilst I remain alive. I agree with Vincent what he said. Also what christians have said about church.
    God bless everyone!

  366. Paul FC Feb 26th 2013

    Is it all sorted now? Are we pro- house Church and anti establishment/institution, or is denominationalism still king?

    I guess we can all agree that we need true heart revival, (personal and corporate), to sort out the mess. Only then will we see the true Church arise, be it another Times Square model or house churches model, or hey! why not both.

    Prayer is the answer.

    God bless.

  367. John S Feb 26th 2013

    Oh why! Oh why! do we as the church treat people this way. Have we mocked Almighty God so much that His judgement is falling as a reminder that He is God alone and we ridicule Him at our peril.
    Wake up church and get your act in order before it is too late!!!!!!!

  368. Paul FC Feb 26th 2013

    For the record, I have been part of a home fellowship with a small group for the past 8 years and the Lord has really blessed us. Our love for each other has grown and we have all grown spiritually. It has all been of the Lord, believe me.

    However we all now have recently been led on-masse to a local Pentecostal church here in Paignton, UK and it is absolutely wonderful. The Pastor is from Nigeria, having taken leadership of the Church 3 years ago and his heart is set on revival. He is on fire and has a loving heart and the Church is active with outreaches in the local community. There are prayer meetings every day of the week. Dear Brothers and Sisters, revival truly is coming. Keep seeking Him with all of your hearts and pray without ceasing. Don’t give up, He hears your hearts cry and He will grant you the desires of your hearts.

    Prayer is the answer.

    God bless you all.

  369. Jerilyn Capaccione Feb 26th 2013

    I understand what everyone is saying about maybe “house churches” aren’t the answer either but as I’m sure most of you will agree, we are living in the end times if not the tribulation and as I’m sure many of you have written fictional books about how the end times are going to be for the real God loving Christians, we are going to need to be with others who believe as we do to survive what is going to take place. I love the Lord with all my heart and only want to do his will on this earth but when the world starts to majorly persecute us as in the end times of Revelations, we need to know who believes as we do and who doesn’t because otherwise, we can be easily fooled by the workings of the enemy. I’m reading a book right now that is fictional but the person who wrote it I’m sure believed that many things in this book will actually be when we go into the tribulation–the persecution of Christians. All I want to know is that there are others who believe as we do as a family and that we will be able to stick together when this world as we know it falls apart which could be at any time-none of us know when because the Bible specifically says, you know the hour when I shall return. I have really been praying about this because with churches the way they are today, how are we suppose to know who is real and who isn’t? I know the Lord says we shouldn’t worry about it–he will protect his own but when you realize that all your money, everything can be taken off of you, it does scare you a little because we have never been through anything like that and most 1929 Depression people are either dead or too old to remember what it was like even then. Just would like to know that there are other “real” Christians out there whom we can have support from and prayer support when we go through this. Maybe “home churches” isn’t the answer but we need to be banned together with those who believe as we do in some way that when this world falls apart, we will have the support of other humans. I know God will keep his promise to provide if and when we go through this but sometimes just knowing there are other humans there to support you helps. I feel alone in this world today because as I’ve said before on here, we were persecuted by Christians in “huge” churches, and especially my children were shunned because of what the enemy knows about us.

  370. Peter H Feb 26th 2013

    If we as christians accept that every religion leads to God and those within the church accept that notion too, then what do we as christians in church in warning others when militant muslims are prepared to do this in the name of Allah?
    Do we as the church ignore what has happened to two christians recently in America for the sake of preserving peace and accept Islam as a peaceful religion, or do we say that Islam is false?
    The question lies with those who sweep such actions undere the carpet hoping that it will go away.
    You decide after reading this following account:-

    February 25, 2013

    Muslim accused of beheading two Christians in New Jersey

    While the national media covers the Oscar Pistorius murder case wall to wall, the gruesome murder and beheading of two Coptic Christians by a Muslim has been virtually blacked out.

    This despite the fact that the story was broken by an ABC television local affiliate in Jersey City two weeks ago.

    WorldNetDaily’s story below provides more details.

    What do you think would be the national media’s response if a Christian was being accused of murdering and beheading two Muslims?



    Torture, persecution of faithful no longer reserved for Islamic nations

    by BOB UNRUH


    Authorities in New Jersey allege a Muslim man beheaded two Coptic Christians, burying their bodies and heads and hands in separate graves near Philadelphia, bringing the horror of the persecution of Christians in Islamic nations to the United States.

    According to New York’s WABC-TV, the Muslim was identified as Yusuf Ibrahim, 28. He was taken into custody after the bodies were found.

    The report said investigators alleged Ibrahim killed the victims then severed their heads and hands, and buried the remains in the back yard of a home in Buena Vista, N.J.

    The report said the victims were from the Coptic Christian community in the area. One of the victims had come from Egypt not many years ago.

    While the report said police did not indicate a motive, friends of the victims wondered if it was something to do with religion.

    WABC reporter Jeff Pegues wrote: “To members of the close knit Coptic Orthodox church the pain is real.”

    “It’s a shock, something like this doesn’t happen to people like that,” one resident told him.

    The report said police described the suspect as “ruthless” and “calculating” and said he belongs behind bars.

    Pamela Geller, who blogs about Islam at Atlas Shrugs, said it “appear have been a ritual killing, religious in nature.”

    “The victims were Coptic Christians and the murderer was Muslim (and we are painfully aware of the status and treatment of Coptic Christians under Muslim rule in Egypt),” she wrote.

    “The killing evokes this passage in the Quran: ‘When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!” – Quran 8:12.”

    Samy Hohareb, a friend of the victims, said, “I leave it for the police and the investigation.”

    The New York Daily News reported Ibrahim was nabbed by detectives on Sunday after the bodies were found.

    Authorities said the suspect was found driving a white Mercedes Benz that belonged to one of the victims.

    Ibrahim was being held at the Atlantic County jail on charges of murder and desecration of human remains.

    WND reported in September a jihadi writer who has praised the murderer of a Dutch filmmaker suggested beheading as a way of curbing criticism of Islam. The report came from the Muhib Ru’yat al-Rahman, a senior writer of a leading jihadi forum called Shumoukh al-Islam, suggested that Muslims living in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands and the U.S. kill Westerners who criticize Islam and display their decapitated heads along roads, according to the Jihad and Terrorism Threat Monitor, a unit of the Middle East Media Research Center.

  371. I believe that the Lord will no longer warn those who do not take heed of His word. His action will be swift and will become known to all.
    Coming as a thief in the night will be devasting of those who are left behind.
    I cannot belief that the Great Tribulation is for His people who are the Body of Christ but is for those who are in rebellion, mock God as our Creator, and follow not Him but others who claim to be prophets and teachers who are counterfeit, and that includes religion which have nothing to do with the Lord God Almighty.
    It is time to seek the Lord while He may be found!

  372. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    Simplify: There are not “house churches.” There is ONE church, and it is identified (as described above and throughout the New Testament) as the church in such and such a city. It may also be described as “the church which meet at Lazarus’ house …” Church is a collective noun, like “team.” It describes all Christians either universally or in a particular location. It does NOT refer to a particular “assembly,” and it is NEVER an entity with an identity in and of itself apart from the individual believers which comprise it.

  373. Brad from Colorado Feb 26th 2013

    Vince, Richard Savage, Watchful, Elisabeth

    God richly bless you for your deep heart comments.

    Here in Colorado – as I went to bed I was struggling with so many of the issues that have been mentioned above (read or skimmed all of them). We need to encourage one another – build one another up. We each have a measure of faith and giftings by His grace to do so. We (whether we know it or not) desperately need one another. After all we are members of one another.

    One of sad things about this present age is the growing hardness and coldness of heart. Love for others is lacking and grace seems to be diminishing. Of all the people we should be encouraging – it should be those who (as those folks I named above) are the ones who have seeminly been shoved to the sidelines and marginalized. I had a picture in my mind of the scripture form Romans 12 that says, “…but associate with the lowly, do not be wise in your own estimation”. I saw the word “lowly” in a whole new and better way as “humble”. As we grow older, many of us become bent and weighed down with age. In one sense we are”bowed in worship” and it is the humble, who through the journey of life become broken and bent over and made contrite by life. And if you are an elder Christian believer – you have a rich supply of wisdom, love, grace and are a field rich with treasure to be mined – if only the brethren in the church would have the eyes to see this and slow down to discover this.

    I have been saddened seeing how the traditions of men in the “church” setting have stripped and muzzled so many of the giftings of the dear believers. I’ve recently seen the “liturgy” smother the ability of belivers to minister one to another.

    So – as I went to bed I said “Lord – do my wife and I stay” – “What’s keeping me here? We do have a few friends and I do want to encourage them. Lord – what do I do – please show me.”

    As I woke – I thought of a couple in the church that lives in a retirement community (that have a very difficult time getting to church), thay are seldom visited by people from the church – if at all. So my thought this morning is – go over to that retirement community (notice the word community) and get with that couple and encourage them and be encouraged by them – draw from thier wells. Esteem the least thought of and seldomly visited as the most important of all – because – in God’s economy – they are.

    Who knows – Maybe I’ll encourge this couple to have meetings in thier own retirement community to reach out to others with God’s love. They can be church there. And some of those I see in the traditional Sunday format that are “muzzled” – I may encourage to come to this new community to minister and be ministered to.

  374. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    And Brad, what’s so sad is that that’s where you’ll find the true elders of the church – in the retirement communities and nursing homes – while the “church” is run by some young snot-nose whippersnapper with a degree from some seminary somewhere, the title of “pastor,” and not a clue as to how life really works nor what is wisdom under God.

  375. Brenda Feb 26th 2013

    As I have read each of these posts it has made me realize that I need to increase my own responsibility of ‘being’ the church and shining a brighter light to everyone around me. As in my previous post I said I have been trying but if each of us has posted here takes this responsibility serious then we will make a big difference in the areas where we live.
    We need to be aware of our surroundings and be the Jesus these people would want to associate with. 2 short stories: I was having lunch at a restaraunt when a group of “Church” people came in. You could tell by their dress, hair, etc. The thing I noticed was there were no smiles among any of the 6 of them. They looked miserable. I looked at my husband and said, “now that just makes me want to run over and join their group, doesn’t it?” NOT!
    Another time I told someone that if they were the only they were a representative of Jesus and I didn’t know him already, I would run for the hills b/c I wouldn’t want anything to do with him. That person changed a lot after they realized how they were representing Christ.
    *If you leave a gospel tract with your tip, make the tip generous.
    *If you go to a store give that person at the check lane a smile and kind word.
    *Be kind to your family. Do random acts of kindness even for them.
    *Do you treat your husband/wife as if they were Jesus sitting there. In other words do you give your best to your partner and children as you would if you were entertaining Jesus in your home?
    *Do we ask what can I do for you today Jesus?
    I know this is just a little off topic but it has made me rethink how I can be more useful to God.

  376. Richard Savage Feb 26th 2013

    PenBen, I like direct, forthright; your comment is just that. Thank you.

    And besides that, you’re quite right

  377. Patricia Feb 26th 2013

    Dear Bro. Andrew ,
    I just read the posting from Feb 22, sent by Tracy and was so saddened by her heart cry to find THE Church.I’ve never written before to you or anyone that I can recall, but I find myself of late having an urgency in my spirit more greater than ever before so in the hope of being obedient here goes.
    It would be impossible without a history lesson to explain to Tracy how this happened for it began, as you know, early in the formation of the Body of Christ (THE Church) .
    Having gone through many of the same situations, questions and struggles (I’ve been following Jesus Christ for 33yrs, I should say 33 short years, compared to some) I’ve come to realize that there is a remnant, and always will be a remnant. I would say to her search till you find individuals who have the same hunger, dedication and love for the Lord and for His Word, I do believe a love for His Word is mandatory for our developing an* intimate relationship with the Lord. Meet together with those people have fellowship, praise and over coffee get out your Bibles and dig in! Maybe it will only be one or two people but my Bible says Matt.18:20; wherever two or three are gathered He is in the midst. Our God is a personal God, I can’t repent for you, you can’t repent for me…but when a bunch of us ’ repenters ‘ get together ,we are one powerful ‘Church’. Please remember that we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves, for our safety. Totally lone sheep can be in dangerous territory. But perhaps you could rethink the ‘assembling part’.
    *There is an expression that says “familiarity breeds contempt”. I fear we have become familiar with our Savior…when we need to become intimate with Him, hence the casualness (and sometimes outright disrespect) of a lot of peoples relationship with GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit.
    Some scriptures which kept me afloat; 1Kings 19:18…He has His 7,000; Rom.9:27, 11:5…there is a remnant. If we are in the last days as many believe then we shouldn’t be surprised by the fulfillment of scripture that speaks of these disheartening circumstances referring to the elect. Matt 24:22, 24; Mark 13:20, 22 ;Luke 18:7.

    Amo 8:11-12 ESV “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I will send a famine on the land– not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. (12) They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the LORD, but they shall not find it.

    I think we find ourselves in groups that don’t hear and churches that don’t preach the Word.
    I will be praying for you and your family Tracy…there is a remnant..I’m one… and there are more! Eph.6:10-20 !!
    May God bless you, fill you with revelation knowledge and bring you closer to Him.

  378. In my younger days and as a single lady belonging to a church, I went out with christians from the church to evangelise by giving out Jesus stickers such as “Smile – Love is Jesus” and “God is Love – Jesus showed it”, gospel tracts, St John’s Gospel booklets, people testifying how they were saved by God’s wonderful grace, singing the praises of Jesus, praying for people who needed prayer and being the person which the Lord was moulding me to be.
    I am growing old with disabilities and unable to go to church anymore. Like with fellow pensioners who have made their comments on Andrew’s web site, we are forgotten by the church and have become a burden to both the church and the state.
    Where are the youn people to take my place in doing what I did way back in the 1960s. I don’t see any of the church youth taking the Good News out on to the streets for one excuse by the same church I went to is because that is now obsolete as God is doing something different. What this something different the church leadership cannot explain, and yes, they have not the time to visit me due to being at church and expecting people to come to them, so they ply those who do go with entertainment. So sad and so true. Now that I have got this off my chest I say say a few more things.
    Despite the absence of going to church, when JWs come to my house with their stuff, one question which they have been asking me is “who is the church” which my response has been “I am the church.” They cannot ignore my testimony because I challenge them about have they been born again of the Holy Ghost. JWs cannot answer this because they are not. So I say to them that they are playing about with religion which suits their beliefs and practices. Their womenfolk try to get me to go to their Kingdom Hall. I refuse because I say that it would be like going to a funeral and my funeral will be a joyous affair as I have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus.
    I am able to use a computer and keep in touch with people by the internet and telephone. This is a lifeline for me.
    It is a shame that christians who said that they were my friends cannot do the same and make excuses that they are busy.
    Christians have many forms of communications to use but do not use them honouring and exhalting Christ.
    End of sermon and God bless.

  379. Karen Adler

    Dijon Str. 2

    55122 Mainz


    EVERYONE i have great news………….
    this lady found a poor family and has been working together with her husband to get them fruit trees, food, seeds, cement etc
    for the building of a garden so this family can survive.
    Every cent goes right to this family…….
    because this lady goes down with her husband
    and they use the funds to build this up.
    SO every cent goes toward this family.
    And they are preaching the gospe to them.
    Ask roger or sandra G…………..this lady is honest and loves the LORD and needs us to help.
    The address is at the top …………she lives in germany
    and goes down to the area to help out.
    and tell the people there is ONLY one GOD and JESUS is the ONLY way……………NOW that is good news.
    WE have the HONOR of helping the poor who truly do lack.
    we have the stewardhip to be able to give to the poor.
    GIVE cheerfully and with LOVE in your hearts.
    Andrew and all …………………we found ones to help.
    Lets do it from the heart . amen.

  380. For anyone that is expressing hunger, please go to http://www.sermonindex.net
    They have tons of excellent orthodox teaching and sermons.
    There are also many excellent sermons on youtube buy John Piper, Carter Conlan, David Wilkerson, Derek Prince etc. if you do a google search. If you are shut in or just want to be encouraged, it may bless you to check it out. Because of the internet now we have access to so much. There is worship as well and you can sing along, if you don’t have music in any other venue. I usually listen to one or two sermons like that each week…Off topic I know but some have expressed a real loneliness and hunger……

  381. Averyl Feb 26th 2013

    kim gilbert & randall lowrey, Brenda, Brad from Colorado, – Yep, I totally agree!
    And to all the other pensioners posting here, – I’m 68, live alone, health not good.

    BUT, – let’s be the Church right where we are! I don’t “go to Church”.
    There are a number of other elderly & needy people where I live, most nearing the end of their various journeys. Most of us help one another.
    I have no hesitation asking them if they’re prepared to meet their Maker, etc.. Just discussing the news of the world is a great opportunity to share about how God is in the bigger picture. I don’t push anyone, just share the love of Christ, talk about life experiences, use plenty of humour.

    It may be on a small scale, but it’s quality, not quantity.
    I certainly don’t get time to be bored or feel sorry for myself!

    God bless you all, dear saints.

  382. Richard Savage Feb 26th 2013

    Averyl, just perfect! I’m 62, and in the same place as you. In it’s simplest form, just do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do, then, like Smith Wigglesworth, we will see results and people will be with us with Jesus. There ain’t nothing more we may ask or expect.

  383. watchful Feb 26th 2013

    ..amen, whenever two or three are gathered in His Name, there is Jesus in the midst………..so simple, thank you Father. And all we need do is comfort others with the comfort we were given, freely give what we have freely received in continuing dependence upon Him…

  384. Richard Savage Feb 26th 2013

    Watchful, yes, yes, and yes again. So, where is the institutional church in what you say? Nowhere, is the right answer I believe, it’s unbiblical and it’s only precedents are in Pre NT religions now revived.

  385. An older Betty Feb 26th 2013

    My late husband was an aircrew member of a Lancaster bomber during World War Two. He was shot down on his way back from Berlin but managed to get back to England with the help of partisans who by the way would have been tortured and murdered by the Gestapo if he was caught.
    The Nazi were ruthless throughout and before the war killing millions of Jews in the extermination camps in Germany and occupied territories.
    Those in Bomber Command flying with the RAF were “sent to Coventry” for their part in bombing the German cities of Dresden and Hanover during the war because of the firestorms which were created by blanket bombing killing thousands of people.
    Harry carried this stigma after the war finished and until he died. People both inside and outside of church blamed airmen like him over what happened with these two cities. He was not ashamed in carrying out orders by the High Command. He did not know the effects of bombing the German cities. This was a war which Adolf Hitler had to be defeated.
    What was astounding was why did British and German people pick on him over what happened. That included folk who called themselves christians.
    Him and I went to church but he kept things to himself as flying with the Royal Air Force in Bomber Command.
    I am not a war widow but a widow without a husband. I remain that way today but I no longer go to church being an elderly person and do not wish to be a burden to any church. My friends who live in other cities and towns have not been to church because they feel the same way as I do.
    The Lord has blessed me with a television, a phone to use and a computer bought for me by my daughter. I am fortunate enough that my family visits me. But I receive no visits from the local christian churches – three where I live – and from their members.
    When I have the opportunity to talk to christians younger than myself, I feel little respect and out of place. Not one has rang me despite having my number.
    This is how old folk are being treated today and the emphasis is that I should get to church instead of the church coming to me. I don’t live in a residential home or a community of pensioners.
    I googled revival in the church and Andrew Strom’s web site came up.
    Hopefully what I have shared has made people aware how old people are being dispensed with inside and outside of church.
    Thank you Andrew for allowing me to write and thank you all for your comments. I still have my faculties. My blessed Hope is to be with Jesus.
    The peace of God be with you
    Ps the British government has allowed my deceased husband this very day a medal fo his services with Bomber Command. Also there is going to be built a Bomber Command memorial for Lincolnshire who lost 25,000 aircrew during WW2. Despite his death later, his name, squadron and where he flew from, will be ascribed on this memorial to be comleted by May 2015.
    Thank you Father God.

  386. Christian journalist Feb 26th 2013

    Thank you Heavenly Father for all that has been said about brother Andrew’s topic and the many pensioners who have shared their thoughts with us.
    I am amazed about the wisdom and discernment given which should not be binned and allowed to be buried.
    I do hope that they will contribute more on other subjects Andrew will be led to raise later.
    Praise the Lord ,and no doubt about it, Jesus is coming soon.

  387. AMEN!

  388. Matt Ziemer Feb 26th 2013

    Hospitality in Jesus name changes the world!
    In Luke 10 Jesus asked his disciples to find ” men of peace”. Who were these men? It seems to me they were at very least men who supported peacefulness in their cities and were willing to open their homes to support and promote the preaching of Christ and the gospel of the Kingdom.
    Are you a man of peace? It is not always easy but it is not complicated. Open your home to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, invite your friends and neighbours, practice the teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 -14 etc. under the headship of Christ and the church of the living God will flourish throughout your city.This is a pretty accurate prescription according to the practice of the early believers.
    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name…..or in His presence together with him. In God’s presence hearts and lives are changed, families are changed and societies are affected for the Glory of God. Once in awhile get together with other big and small groups from your cityand have a celebration of the life of Christ. The gifts of God will flow, miracles will happen and healings in every sense of the word will be commonplace.
    Look at the church in your city the same way God does. He only sees one church, how in the world do we think we have the right to look at it any other way?
    Accept all believers as your brothers and sisters regardless of what flavour they are and begin to look not only at your own interests but also to the interests of others.
    Ignore institiutions created by men in the same way Christ did, but don’t ignore God’s people. Jesus did not forget his people but chastised the religious creations of men. We can love each other while not supporting man made institutions, with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible. We love because he first loved us 🙂

  389. John S Feb 26th 2013

    I hope also that the wise older generation will remain contributing on Andrew’s web site for they have so much to give and to offer.
    I say Amen!

  390. Matt Ziemer Feb 26th 2013

    To Betty “young at heart”. Thanks a lot for sharing your wisdom and concerns may God richly bless you. Do you have some more suggestions as to how the church might be blessed by reaching out to other “young at hearts”?

  391. PenBen Feb 26th 2013

    Spot on, Matt!

  392. Daniel Feb 27th 2013

    Thank you for sharing, Betty. I think we do the church a disservice, when we overlook and ignore elderly believers.
    I came across a blog page (now taken down, but not before I saved a copy), which listed a number of dire warnings – prophecies and revelations – concerning the future of Australia. Almost all the people God revealed these things to, are gone. Their warnings are being forgotten and their godly example is becoming unknown to younger generations.
    When we neglect older believers, we risk not only losing the insights and wisdom God has entrusted to them; we also risk losing direction, depth and effectiveness in our discipling of others and in our walk with the Lord.
    These believers have been given as an example to us. God didn’t put them there, for us to ignore.

  393. Friends,
    First off, I’m a very long time “lurker” of this site. Second, a huge ‘thank-you’ to Andrew for creating such a site. Tell me where have you ever seen such an open forum with the right Spirit? There is much learning here. Much grace! I would take up way too much bandwidth in giving my life in Christ 41 year history. Suffice to say I’ve been in multiple “ministries” that had access to hundreds of churches of a variety of denominations across the USA. I would challenge anyone that I have seen more “gimmickry” concerning the Gospel of The Christ than anyone could imagine. This troubling issue of identifying the Church within the current church system drove me to pull aside an actually really examine what the Bible (the written Word) stated concerning The Church. What I found is what seems to have been established in this discussion. The Church is a people. In particular they believe that Jesus is The Christ and have themselves reconciled to God upon this truth. Sorry if it sounds that simple. What must we DO? Believe in Him Who He has sent! So it has been established that The Church is not a building or a system or anything that has been imagined by man. The Church is a living organism….The Body of The Christ The Head. I believe it was Tyndale that was executed by the then reigning church system because he translated “ekklesia” as “congregation” rather than “church”. Many in this discussion have done a fine job concerning the etymology of the word “CHURCH”. I won’t retrace. Jesus Himself resolved the building or geographical issue concerning worship. Not a mountain, not in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth. To my knowledge (limited) there were only three buildings that were “ordained” by God. The Tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple, and the rebuilt temple of Nehemiah. I can’t tell you how many years I had to turn a blind eye when pastors would call their church “the house of God”. The only scriptural reference to “the house of God” is The Temple. Interestingly, Jesus and Paul referred to a human body as a temple. There was never a scriptural suggestion to create churches or synagogues. That was man’s idea and doing. What also seems to be established in this discussion is not so much the building itself but what happens within. This should be what defines the people. I had trouble finding the activities I saw for years within the pages of my Bible. Mostly what I saw was the “market place”. This was fine if you where with the elite pounding the Gospel over the unbelieving believers. But there was absolutely no functioning as The Church. In 41 years and a kazillion sermons, seminars, retreats, advances, mission trips, I’ve never heard anybody dare to touch 1 Cor 14:26. I wonder why? “What is the outcome then, brethren? WHEN YOU ASSEMBLE, each one has……
    Mike D.

  394. watchful Feb 27th 2013

    May the Lord God bless you dear seniors…….this is an eye-opener for me how our elders are being marginalized by the wayward church system, it is just not something that I had considered or was aware of, but it is on my heart now to pray concerning it. I”m very glad that you all have come here and are speaking up about this problem and bringing it to light! I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling that this has been in the will and intent of our heavenly Father today……Please know that you have a vital role in Christ’s Body……without you the Body is incomplete, you are not a burden but rather an important part……..

  395. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    So sad. What it represents is the marginalizing of ELDERS.

    It is the CULT OF YOUTH gone mad.

    And just another reason why everything is such a mess today. We need the “heart of the sons to return to the fathers”.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  396. Sandra G. Feb 27th 2013

    In response to Randall’s post. Karen is a wonderful sister in Christ, she has been helping people for a long time, and her cause is just.
    So, if there are any out there that can help Karen to help this family,
    please do, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. I myself am disabled, not an elder as some of the other ladies, just in my mid 50’s, but still not able to do much, I am also on a pension, but I will give what I can. “if you do this to the least of my brethren, you have done it to me”. If you feel led to give, contact Randall, he will tell you how to go about sending your donation. I did find out today that if a money order is purchased, in order to send it to Germany it has to be an international money order, I am assuming it will need to be made out to Karen. We are still gathering information on this, and will let all know when we have more.

    May all be blessed, and I thank you in advance.

    In HIS love & grace
    Sandra G.

  397. To all you Seniors that have posted and bore your hearts. I am ever so grateful to hear you and know your heart cry. I am far to quickly approaching 65 and am a recipient of SS so a pensioner. I was involved in a church since 1971 that was full of the HS (until deception came) – for over 15 yrs and since then have struggled with mainstream or the institution called church.
    My husband of 68 has a bad hearing loss due to the noise in Boeing Co and went thru security clearance up the wazoo to work on a secret project. Problem was they knew how to read blue prints and a door on the bottom of a plane told them something. I am saying this to give this man honor for his change from his old man nature, many years ago, to a new creation in Christ and dedicated to ministry to jails, prisons, etc..even a book counter at the old church. He is now giving out to ex-cons and orphans. He gives and gives and gives. Only to try to attend church and not be able to stand the boom, boom, boom of the drums and even with turning them off it vibrates in his head and hurts his ears. He is not the only one I have met with the same problem. Just another way the elderly are left in the dust and given no regard. We have also received the same hand of fellowship as many others mentioned. Then to be blamed with “forsaking the assembling” I will be so bold as to say I think we are Bride material or Remnant what ever you want to call it.
    I am thankful for each post I have read here and wish there was a way we could all meet on this side of heaven. I will be so bold as to leave my email address so if any of you elderly ladies would like to write I will be glad to invite you to do so. I am still mobile and can get around but I would love to find good fellowship. I am spirit filled and teach bible studies with my husband to the ex-cons and so I am not bored I keep busy. I have been on 2 missions, I do crafts of several sorts. But I would like to correspond if any of you would like. We just need to figure out a way to exchange emails safely. Thanks again for the heart felt posts here in this forum and thank you Andrew for this site to congregate and post and be heard. God Bless you.

  398. Marilyn Crow Feb 27th 2013

    I have so been encouraged by the elder folk, thank you.

    Mike talked about this open forum with the right spirit. We`d agree that it`s the tree showing its true fruit. What God has done through Andrew (re. Article, `Editor – My Wilderness Experience)
    is bearing fruit. We grow disciples (in the Holy Spirit) according to our maturity & the wide range & depth here with everyone, gives witness to that.

    Thank you again Andrew & be encouraged. Marilyn.

  399. Here is the news about the Bomber Command medal
    And here is the news about the Bomber Command memorial for
    I thank you all and praise God for your kind comments.
    Much love in Jesus

  400. First off, What is a pensioner?

    Secondly, Betty was blessed by what you shared.

    War is a horrible thing and Hitler carried it to another level. It all reminds me of a “type” of what will take place in the future when the Antichrist arrives on the scene.

    I think one problem with the youth of today, is that, they are not taught to respect those in authority or the elderly.

    When we were all younger you were taught to show respect to older people. We constantly went to visit our Grandmas and Grandpas.

    I see younger people today who do not even acknowledge their Grandparents.

    Andrew hit the nail on the head when he said, its the “cult of the youth gone mad”. My sentiments exactly.


  401. Christian journalist Feb 27th 2013

    Has anyone noticed how many celebrities, pop stars, professional footballers, and actors and actresses are adorn with tattoos all over their bodies. Take a look at this…

    Todd Bentley who is very influencial amongst young christians has led the way for them being tattooed and now has returned to the God TV with another claim of a revival coming.
    Look at this link…
    Notice that Rory and Wendy Alec are at the forefront of proclaiming a tsunami revival heading our way.
    See the advert of becoming one of GOD TV ANGELS.
    And yes, they are prophesing all these things to happen using the name of Jesus.
    Going back to tattoos what will be the next step which the bible prophesies – the Mark of the Beast? Being tattoed has become acceptable in church as this is cool and fad with young people following many of their kin and those in the limelight.
    This appears to be another way forward for the church to become noticeable for the wrong reasons.
    What out as there is more deception and fads to come in getting bums on seats in churches. And that is called entertainment!

  402. watchful Feb 27th 2013

    Amen Andrew, so right, and this is another way to recognize the worldly church that has become like the world, it is UPSIDE DOWN from the ways of God and His kingdom. Bless you…

  403. It would be exciting to sit down literally with many of your responders. It is truly time for true New Testament church councils. The dynamics now would be even more difficult that they were in the early church, and I am not sure how much would be accomplished, and if we would or could hear correctly the directives of the Holy Spirit. But it would be worth a try. 2000 yrs. of church history under the bridge make things very complex. We all have many reasons for our present conclusions. As I read many of the posts, my spirit grows heavy. We have a saying in our assembly, if you see something that needs to be done, do it. If one has the burden for body ministry functions, it is probably because God has called them to do it. But what usually follows is either hurt feelings because everyone doesn’t automatically jump into that particular work with them, or criticism of leadership for not doing it. I am amazed at many of the posts here that are so critical of church leadership. It is even more magnified in the smaller “home church’ type assemblies. Small church elders are expected to man full time jobs, raise large families, participate in a lot of the home school activities, coach a sports team, do whatever, lead when there is a difficult situations that no one else wants to touch, walk all the criteria tightropes and landmines that everyone sets for them, don’t do Sunday school, but still excite and nurture the youth, don’t teach too deep because the kids can'[t understand and many times the adults can’t either and don’t forget to stay in line for the criticism and receive it humbly brother. And after all is said and done, we don’t really believe leadership is a new testament directive, after all we are all priests unto God, and who does he think he is,,,God speaks to all of us. The result is:………….drum roll………”out of church Christians”. I could go on, and I don’t want to seem angry, but I am frustrated. In the mean time the Holy Spirit is moving in America, and many don’t even know it. It doesn’t look and sound like what they think it should or It has some bad connections to the Kansas City prophets or some other faulty ministry and therefore is rejected. Brothers and sisters before it’s over God is going to shake everything that can be shaken. If we don’t watch it we will be on the outside looking in just like the Pharisees. You don’t have to be in a denomination or mega church to be a Pharisee, you just have to think you’ve got it all figured out and believe that the move of God will fit all of your criteria. God will not be boxed, not even by those who possess the most truth. Another final thought, God is not going to rapture the church out. He is going to try, perfect, change and raise up his overcomers in the last days to be a mighty victorious church that will confront the anti-christ culture of our time and be victorious. What this will look like at the end, I am not sure, but the prerequisite is to stay in love with God, which will manifest in a love for his people, which will extend into a fiery love for this generation of human beings that are going to see the most difficult times in history.

  404. Victoria Bingham Feb 27th 2013

    In 2006 on a trip to my home city of New York, from Virginia, with a group of high school students from a Christian Academy, I asked the Lord, which church to take all of us to on Sunday. (a great way to get a recommendation BTW) Well, he shocked me with his answer.

    You see, being from NYC I knew many churches and home fellowships that could easily have been the answer. In fact THAT’s PRECISELY why I asked. WHICH one to go to? was my thought.. The Lord’s very clear reply was ‘Go to Times Square Church’.

    Which many of you know was the church that Pastor David Wilkerson founded in the middle of Times Square on 51st & Broadway. I was astonished, because I had NEVER been to TSCNY before. But the answer came clear as a bell, so we went to Times Square Church on the Sunday, and were treated to the best service in a church I’ve ever experienced before.

    The preacher was Carter Conlon. His sermon was ‘Setting Fire to the Foxes Tails’ (available online). He asked for an annointing on his message (I found out he always does) and he GOT IT. (I know now he always does). This church of all those I’ve visited, has its finger on heaven’s pulse. There is no breathy expousing of splendid speeches and lofty expressions of clich’ed affirmation. This church puts its finger every time on what appears to be heaven’s own admonishing, regardless of who it may offend, timely warnings and strictly Biblical expounding of scripture that meets needs so accurately and specifically as to be.. well, astonishing.

    When we are not now making the 9 hour round trip on Sunday JUST to go to church.. we watch the sermons online on either ‘Sermon Index’ http://www.TSCNY.org/sermons, or on You Tube. This is to highly recommend for anyone frustrated with the lukewarm local churches such as those that surround us here, and want to hear a man of God who speaks for God. God bless you.

  405. Victoria Bingham Feb 27th 2013

    ..Or of couse, just ask the Lord. He is faithful to answer.

  406. PenBen Feb 27th 2013

    Andrew, elders are marginalized because the institutional church has taught us that “elder” doesn’t really mean someone who’s elder – that it’s just a title, used interchangeably with pastor. Well, it’s not. One pretty much has to have children’s children and a head of gray hair to qualify, methinks.

    And, Steve, what most folks are being critical of is not valid, legitimate church leadership; it’s those who have stolen a position from those who were truly qualified to lead from a position of age and wisdom. And if we all learn again to look at it as shepherd leadership, servant leadership, not from the front but from the back or middle of the pack – if we’ll learn to forsake the preeminence, the applause and the “glory” – we’ll see conditions in which God could freely work through the instrumentality of men under His control instead of their own.

  407. Matt Ziemer Feb 27th 2013

    Amen PenBen!

  408. Matt Ziemer Feb 27th 2013

    1 Corinthians 14: 26 AAAAAmen Mike D.! Obedience to this would transfer the headship back to Christ and all would experience the annointing in incredible ways.

  409. Andrew Feb 27th 2013

    I believe strongly in 1 Cor 14:26 meetings – esp smaller meetings.

    I also believe in Acts 2:42-47 where the apostles preached to much larger groups. Paul later did the same.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  410. John S Feb 27th 2013

    To Steve Ward

    I believe that you have missed the point about church leadership. Kindly look again at what has been shared by the elderly brethren and what they have been through and how they have been treated both inside and outside of church by christians and the leadership of the church.
    To ostracise and neglect them is shameful and no excuse can be made about their treatment then and now. Contempt is a word to use here; so is the lack of care and concern for them.
    It appears once that you go past pensionable age, the older generation are expendable and can be dispensed with. Again this is shameful.
    This is both happening in the secular world and has become evident within the christian church.
    You mention the Kansas City Prophets. They were found to be false prophets who spouted ungodly things in the name of Jesus. Some of them are still around doing the same thing where they left off.
    There are many well known charlatans doing these things as well and they use christian tv to spread their poison of deception. These cannot be ignored and what they do and say is swept under the carpet. Christian leadership cannot afford to play ignorance to how the church has been infiltrated, used and abused, and another gospel is being preached. This has nothing to do with christianity and should be exposed. If you disagree about this I would say to you – wake up brother!
    Ah yes! We are all living in hard times and finances are scarce due to the economic crisis. Well brother, it is about time that these wealthy tv evangelists gave their riches away to christians in need instead of preaching the false prosperity doctrine which is used to fleece the flock, and use of the money given, buys their mansions and purchases of personal jet airliners. This is disgraceful!
    The Word of Faith leaders who hog the christian airwaves should go and get a proper job and see what it is like keeping that job in the real world.
    And by the way, even the Apostle Paul held a job which was a tent maker. He did not complain and neither did he fleece the flock whom he visited to turn christianity into a money spinning venture which many of these celebrity charlatans are doing all the way to the bank.
    The real church is the Body of Christ.
    Those playing christian will face the consequences sooner rather than later due to their disguises.
    The judgement of God is for real and can be seen upon nations who mock Him. And no doubt about it, judgement has begun in the house of the Lord.
    When the church mocks Almighty God by their actions, consequences do follow.
    May this song be of encouragement to you Steve and to every contributor and those looking at Andrew’s web site.

  411. PenBen Feb 28th 2013

    Andrew, forgive me, but I don’t see anything in Acts 2:42-47 stating there that the apostles preached to much larger groups. Nor does I Cor. 14 say anything about the size (# of attendees, I presume you mean?) of the meeting. Might this be a tradition handed down to you from some source other than scripture?

  412. PenBen Feb 28th 2013

    If you’re talking about the large “soul winning” event immediately prior to Acts 2:42, yes, scripture does say that about 3000 were saved then. But this was preaching as it always occurs in scripture – giving the gospel message to the lost, not something different spoken to those who were already believing – and it was not to the church, as those who were saved when they heard the preaching were not, by definition, part of the church at the time that they heard the preaching. So there is nothing there that sets any sort of precedent for the apostles holding “church meetings” with “large groups.” Use it as an example of open-air evangelistic meetings, perhaps, but it is absent application to the church.

  413. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    Are you trying to say that in “Solomon’s Porch” the apostles were preaching mainly to the ‘lost’ every day?

    It says that the CHRISTIANS “gave themselves” to the apostles’ teaching. It says they were every day down in the Temple Courtyard listening to the apostles preach and teach. Just like Paul when he “hired a room” to preach – or when he preached so long one night that someone fell out the window asleep and had to be resurrected!

    PenBen – my friend – your “anti-church” stance has clearly made you “anti-preaching” – especially to the Body.

    In this you are totally – and I mean TOTALLY – unscriptural, my friend.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  414. Michael Deitz Feb 28th 2013

    If I may throw a few observations into the discussion. Acts 2:14-42. May I suggest that this is an example of what some would call “anointed/appointed” preaching. An unplanned (by man) ‘word’ for a specific people/person (in this case unbelieving Jews) at that specific time (9AM). This was most likely not a prepared sermon by Peter but a direct result of being “filled with the Holy Spirit”. There was no “invite” for same time same place next week. As Jesus said “open your mouth and I’ll give you the words” and Paul added “be instant in season”. This requires that you are absolutely sure that Christ is in you and you are in Christ. Then you simply “be”. Acts 13:13-49. Paul enters a synagogue (Jewish religion) and is asked “if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it”. Can you imagine this liberty in most church houses! We know from vrs 4 that he was “sent out by the Holy Spirit”. With this mandate Paul opened his mouth and out poured the revealed Christ letting it be known (to Jews) that “through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed and everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses”. The meeting ended with an invite (had to be by the Jews) to return next week same place same time. “And the next Sabbath the WHOLE CITY assembled to hear the word of the God”. These are the results when you know you are “sent” by the Holy Spirit. Again, these are unplanned by man, orchestrated by the Holy Spirit events. Contrary to these events we are most of the time “over planned”, “by wrote”, and not sent by the Holy Spirit. In each of these cases we are dealing with “never heard the gospel unbelieving people”. Might I add here that there should not be the need of these type of meetings for “heard the gospel believing people”. Tell me, with all of our media devices, who these days has not heard the gospel of Jesus The Christ? What are they hearing? Although the Church @ Corinth had some pretty interesting (disgusting) issues (carnal) they were still counted as believers (the Church) by Paul. 1 Cor. 12 ….the identifying of the “gifts”, 1 Cor. 13……. Love, the only fuel that powers the “gifts”, 1 Cor. 14…. the actual application and manifestation of the “gifts” in a gathering. An interesting point to make here is that which causes an unbeliever to “fall on their face and worship God, declaring that GOD IS CERTAINLY among you”, was not 3 fast, 3 slow, offering/announcements, sermon, heads bowed and eyes closed. A very different gathering indeed.
    Mike D.

  415. PenBen Feb 28th 2013

    Andrew, what I am saying is that we must take great care not to mix the traditions of men with the commands of scripture. The issues in the church today are the errors and abuses of men, particularly those that would seize for some men positions of authority over other men on the basis of traditions and mis-readings of scripture.

    Yes, the early Christians had the privilege to sit at the feet of the apostles to hear and learn new precepts that today we can open our New Testaments and read for ourselves. In this way, the apostles spoke with specific authority from God. But unless you are saying that that apostolic gift (to speak new precepts with the authority of God) continues to today, and unless you can point to a specific scriptural command for us to place ourselves thus under the authority of “apostles” who speak God’s words above and beyond the written words of scripture (or who are still writing the New Testament), how can you take from that a command for the church to be for the purpose of submitting to this style of authoritative “preaching”? Again, the Greek words for “preaching” in the New Testament almost always refer to the giving of the gospel, NOT to what you reference above as sitting at the feet of the apostles to listen to their teaching. (Who would not want to have heard directly from those who had heard directly from Jesus?) And in Acts 20, when Paul was in Troas, he did not “preach” in the sense that you (and many) imply. The Greek word, as you know, is “dialegomai” from which we get our word “dialogue.” Paul dialogued with them. Paul simply talked with them. And “dialogue” is a two-way conversation, not a one-man oratory. Look at the context: they were sitting around the supper table! They weren’t sitting in a “sanctuary” with a “pulpit” or any raised platform; they were sitting around the supper table talking together as fellow men. I can imagine that they asked Paul about his experience with Jesus on the Damascus road and about his travels and about the other believers whom he encountered. But we sure don’t read there or anywhere else “Paul’s sermon at Troas” or “Paul’s new Troasian doctrine(s).”

    No, Andrew, I am anything but anti-church. I am so pro-church that I am anti-institution when the institution has been the idol that has stood between the church and God for almost 2000 years. (Are YOU pro-church in the scriptural sense or pro-institution in the traditional sense? The questions and articles that you post in this blog reveal that you are at least willing to give air to the struggle between the two opposing positions.) Yes, I am opposed to “preaching” to the church when that preaching takes on a life of its own not intended by God and not truthfully modeled for us in the New Testament. But if we can sit down together as brothers on equal footing, as I Cor. 14 illustrates, face to face, in a room together, or in whatever forum modern technology allows us (like this blog), without one of us having the “authority” (aside from scripture) to shut up the other, and we can decently and in order each one in turn speak what God has placed on our hearts, then the church can act as God intended for the church to act. So forgive me if I appear to take a hard-line stance, but Acts 17:11 demands that we address each other with specific clear scripture and not just traditions or the dismissive pejorative of “unscriptural.” I appeal to scripture – “Chapter and verse, please!” To what do YOU appeal?

  416. Christian journalist Feb 28th 2013

    The word “disciple” refers to a learner or follower. The word “apostle” means “one who is sent out.” While the Lord Jesus was on earth, His twelve followers were called disciples. The twelve disciples followed Jesus Christ, learned from Him, and were trained by Him. After His resurrection and ascension, Jesus sent the disciples out to be His witnesses – see Matthew 28 verses18 to 20 and Acts 1 verse 8. They were then referred to as the twelve apostles. However, even when Jesus was still on earth, the terms “disciples” and “apostles” were used somewhat interchangeably.
    Too much emphasis in the modern day church is what position is held in church. I see very few who are called apostles going out into the streets of today. They appear to ignore the lost and only preach to the converted in similar named churches.
    How many followers whose leaderships call disciples are in obeyance to His commission and calling?
    How many who are called bishops are prepared to go into the world to preach the gospel message? They like their titles and status quo but their positions have become meaningless outside of church.
    How many people who call themselves and depicted to be prophets allow themselves to be corrected when their prophecies are not fulfilled and are false? Very few and far between! And two reasons are that they are not accountable and take responsibilty other to themselves and people who have put them on pedestals.
    The twelve disciples/apostles were ordinary men whom Almighty God used in an extraordinary manner. Among the twelve were fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary. The four Gospels record the constant failings, struggles, and doubts of these twelve men who followed Jesus Christ. After witnessing Jesus’ resurrection and ascension into heaven, the Holy Spirit transformed the disciples/apostles into powerful men of God who turned the world upside down – see Acts 17 verse 6. What was the change? The twelve apostles/disciples had “been with Jesus” – Acts 4 verse 13.
    Are we as believers and followers of Christ prepared to turn the world upside down and GO YE into the world as His disciples did?
    Instead, many christians today are afraid to to so and sit tight behind closed doors of our four walled churches with their homes they call castles having the draw bridges up.
    Do we stand up for Jesus or be deceived by all sorts of teachings that play about with religion and thus becoming another gospel bearing no resemblance to biblical doctrine.
    Yes, homosexuals and lesbians can become born again christians by repentance and giving their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ. They can be transformed by the Grace of God but only if they are willing and submit to Him as their Saviour. So simple and not complicated because it was the Lord who saved me!

  417. Jerilyn Capaccione Feb 28th 2013

    I agree with “A Christian”. That is all our family has been looking for for many years now—people who believe as we do in the Lord Jesus Christ and want others to know him personally as we do. The problem is with so many “Christians” out there who are luke warm, it makes it hard to connect with the ones who are “on fire” for the Lord (truly on fire) so that we will have the “gathering together of ourselves” as the Bible says we need. For me personally, I just believe that I need to keep on praying and let the Lord lead with this. I just don’t want to get involved in a “new age church” and realize it too late to turn around and go the other way. As I said, for me, I will have to keep praying for the Lord to lead us to others who feel as we do and want to worship as we would like to (not necessarily in a structured church building) but even in a bible study atmosphere. Thanks for all of your postings on here. I read this website at least once/week and really appreciate what I’ve been reading on here about churches today.
    Thanks to all of you and God Bless all of you.
    Jerilyn Capaccione