C3 CHURCHES RESPOND- “Gay” Issue – by A. Strom

Just for the record, my big concern in this was that homosexuals were being welcomed right into actual Pentecostal ‘fellowship’ – with no sign that it was being called “sin” at all. In fact, complete “acceptance” of homosexuals ‘just as they are’. I personally have no problem with reaching out in love toward homosexual people for the sake of their salvation and cleansing through Jesus. I do believe in compassion for the sinner. But this is very different. This is total “acceptance” of Homosexuals into actual Pentecostal fellowship. Where is the repentance? Where is the stand on what God calls “SIN”? That was my big concern.

I am delighted to say that the overall C3 church has now issued
a firm response concerning this issue. However, there are still real
question marks, as we shall see. But first – their response. Here it is-

“Dear ********
Thank you for your email and expression of your concerns
regarding this issue. We wanted you to know our position on this
matter so there is no confusion regarding our beliefs. Below is a
short statement that we trust will help clarify our stance.

C3 Churches hold to the historic Judeo-Christian view of sexual
union being between a man and a woman in marriage. We do not
recognise the practice of homosexuality as biblically valid for a
follower of Christ, nor do we promote it. We do however promote
and expect God’s great love and grace to be shown to all,
regardless of their orientation.

Also we wanted you to know that Ps Buckingham has removed
his blog at our request as it does not reflect our beliefs.

Kind Regards,
C3 Church Global”

ANDREW AGAIN: An excellent response, and I am very happy
that the C3 movement has been so clear about it. However, it is
not actually true that Rob Buckingham has removed his blog post.
In fact, the worst two are still up, including – “Is Jesus Anti-Gay?”
and ‘The Acceptance Controversy’. And his comment is still
there for all to see-
“As a Christian, and pastor of a church, I sometimes find the
attitudes of fellow Christians embarrassing. We have a number
of gay men and women in our church and they are accepted
just the way they are – just like everyone else is.”

Here is the link so you can see for yourself-
http://www.baysidechurch.com.au/content/view/231/243/

The C3 statement said that Rob Buckingham had already
removed the blog post concerned. But actually none of them
have been removed yet at all. And Bayside’s Youtube video –
“Real Christianity is Accepting” is also still up for all the world to see.

And anyway, even if they do take them down at some point,
does that mean Rob Buckingham’s attitude has truly changed?
He is the pastor of thousands of C3 people, after all.

If you want to clarify if and when any of this stuff will be removed,
you can contact C3 – [email protected]

And in the meantime, I have received a great deal of confirmation
that mainstream Baptist churches in both New Zealand and
Australia are also preaching or practising “Homosexual
Acceptance” and no longer treating it as ‘sin’. This is a crisis.
The walls are down. Is it already too late?

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic below-

Yours in Christ – Andrew Strom ( [email protected] )

Posted in Articles by Andrew on February 28th, 2013 at 8:04 pm.

193 comments

193 Replies

  1. Vicki Lynn Feb 28th 2013

    Is it ” FEAR OF MAN” that stops preachers,, teaching that,, homosexuality is a ” sin ” .

    Why are they let off the hook ?

  2. any doubt that we ARE heading into the last days is now being proved with the actions of some of our so-called churches under their so-called pastors ! this movement kind of coincides with the CHRISLOM movement in CALIFORNIA. I used to belong to a site for older adults ( over 50 years old ) . by means of some comments on a blog concerning acceptance of gays as they are, slightly heated arguements came to pass. i was told by a less than intelligent ( my assumption anyway) woman, that her GOD was a god of love and i was was off key ! i and some other persons listed various BIBICAL scriptures that pointed out GOD’S stance on this issue. i did ask her ….who her god was and what kind of teaching book she read because it obviously was not the BIBLE . to put it short, she stopped arguing but i don’t think her way of thinking was effected at all ! with all the junk going on in so many churches ( or businesses ! ) one statement made by a political leader does look a lot truer than what was once accepted…..AMERICA IS NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN NATION !

  3. Robert Feb 28th 2013

    It’s one thing to say your beliefs are “this” or “that” but you hide those beliefs due to political correctness ro possibly even being ashamed of the word of God. God wants to save the homosexual and not leave them in their sin. Yes, he loves them. No doubt about that. We have all sinned and fallen short of the golry of God. But we have to take a stand or the very NATURE of the Christian doctrine of salvation and atonement will no longer have any meaning in the next 5 years.
    Robert

  4. VICKI LYNN…….it is probibly fear of loosing money more than anything else .

  5. The “Great Falling Away” is in full advance.

  6. Matt G Feb 28th 2013

    A lack of clarity or conviction on the topic of biblical sexuality should come as no surprise for those who have observed the trajectory of C3 churches and their leadership. Having listened to several messages and conference presentations from C3 leaders, there is no meaningful biblical substance. The “sermons” of C3′s head, Phil Pringle, are essentially the ramblings of his own imagination and mystical speculations, with typical charismatic/Pentecostal terminology and jargon to cause his listeners to dismiss suggestion that he is not “anointed”. It would seem that Christianity in NZ and AU is in just as bad shape as it is in the US, with a marked abandonment of biblical truth by large segments of the charismatic/Pentecostal community.

  7. Andrew Feb 28th 2013

    Sadly, my friend, I believe much of Australia is close to outright apostasy. With NZ not too far behind.

    Bless you!

    Andrew

  8. Michael Reed Feb 28th 2013

    Concerning the C3 resposne that says, “We do however promote
    and expect God´s great love and grace to be shown to all,
    regardless of their orientation.”, shows to me that they are still in dark concerning the sin of homosexual sex and “orientation”. By their very use of the word, “orientation” shows that they have made the determination of saying that homosexuals are “born that way.” By saying that “they are born that way” would then logically excuse the homosexual of any sin. They would not be guilty of sin, but what they do would be considered natural and normal, therefore with any reference of it be connected with sin. “Orientation then = normal behavior.”

  9. Daniel Feb 28th 2013

    I was recently reading Romans 1:29 it says, that men are filled with all unrighteousness, fornication…murder, etc. Paul goes on to say in Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Ouch…Jesus says, If we look at a woman with lust in our heart we have committed adultery. Adultery, fornication, homosexuality are all sexual immorality. Christians, we might not participate in homosexuality, but can one of us say we dont participate in sexual immorality? When we sanctify ourselves and purify our hearts people will see our purity and hatred of sin particularly sexual immorality and they will know where and how we stand. It wont be a question of purging from our midst homosexuals, but purging from our midst our own unrighteousness, fornication and adultery. May the God of all comfort and strength give us pure hearts and minds to serve Him.

  10. No surprises really. One thing I’ve noted over the years is it is almost impossible for these newer churches to admit it when they get something wrong. It’s almost as though their leaders have to be infallible or they aren’t godly leaders. This is a far cry from the biblical examples—Peter and King David [Psalm 51] two of the most notable.I was told as a leader of one such group that I wasn’t allowed to admit I faced struggles and weaknesses in my Christian walk because I was a leader that people needed to look up to.
    The Catholic church has one infallible leader—we have thousands of them!

    My concern is the seeming silence from the Church where these things were preached. What does that tell us about the quality of discipleship and biblical understanding of those sitting under this ministry?

    I do wonder in all seriousness if it would be wrong to get up and evict a person speaking heresy from a church pulpit . . . has such a thing ever happened?

    Blessings Gaz

  11. TheDude Feb 28th 2013

    I’m all for speaking out against sin, but in this case it is yet another example of casting pearls before swine. Only God can remove the scales from their eyes to see the error of their ways. Our time is better spent in other Godly pursuits.

  12. Michael Reed Feb 28th 2013

    I would add that the C3 group has to come clean and make clear their definition of what they mean by “orientation”. If this is not done, then really, nothing has changed. And I don’t think that it is this one group that has fallen ‘hook, line and sinker” for the “orientation” lie. It is prevalent around the world, more and more. It is a common belief, I would say, of many college students around the USA, and that probably goes for “Christians” and non-Christians alike.

    Love will call the sinner/homosexual (male or female) to repentance!

    A love that has waxed cold will not call the sinner to repentance for fear of offending them or hurting their feelings. In fact, it seems that some churches are fearful of using the words SIN or REPENTANCE, because they might lose some people. And of course we know that….. people = money.

    The remnant is growing smaller and smaller as the days go by.

  13. Doug57 Feb 28th 2013

    The word “orientation” was used, which suggests they believe that gays are born that way. It should be refered to as Same Sex Attraction Disorder (SSAD).
    I will not be buying their music anymore, don’t think I wll be attending their church either.

  14. ok joe likes/ loves mike…. that’s their business and their sin although they do not recognize what they are doing is , according to God sin. So the church says what they are doing is sin and they then argue…. God didn’t say that and you are not accepting me.
    We the church says, no that is sin and we are accepting you but we are not accepting your belief that your lifestyle is NOT sin. WE agree with God that is it is sin. Sin keeps you separate from God and it conflicts with loving God.
    You love God on your terms and God wants your love to HIM on His terms.
    we’re here to love you but also encourage you to not sin , according to God’s rules.

    So why do Homosexuals and Lesbians want marriage ( god’s blessing on their union, or is it the financial benefits of being married and accepted by government.

    and why do they want our approval….
    when we say we love them they want more they want us to embrace their beliefs… that’s the test of our loving them. We can’t love them and have different beliefs from them.. that’s their message to us. and they don’t separate the two… them and their action.

    we in turn don’t leave them alone and just love them and let them have or have not their sin. Its between them and God anyway.Their stuff only affects me if they pressure me to change and shout out the victim cry.

    does the church handle their attacks rightly ? why don’t we speak the truth in love and drop it. but still hold the live without compromise. zero tolerance for that lifestyle.

    how to we handle the other sins of people…look the other way or what… abuse, adultery, fornication, alcohol, drugs ?
    anything that does not line up with the WORD is wrong and sin….Let their never be any compromise with sin !
    but let Truth in love and Love in truth, REIGN soverign in or out of the church !

    What’s not clear and why all this fuss splitting hairs with fleshly semantics. God’s WORD stands. AMEN !

  15. michelle d. Feb 28th 2013

    My dear brothers it is so simple… GOD… Has allowed all men to do whatever there heart desires… The PROBLEM…
    in QUESTION…. Is we FORGOT to PREACH…
    … HELL IS the PENALTY… for SIN…
    ALL SIN.
    Without REPENTANCE…
    … Their is NO FORGIVENESS
    of SIN.

  16. Daniel
    The book of Romans isn’t a teaching that merely points out that everyone is in bondage to sin — it shows the pathway to righteousness by faith.
    No one is pretending to be self righteous, without sin and therefore deceived, they are encouraging the Church to live lives in intimacy with Christ, leading to purity, holiness and good fruit. Anyone who thinks we should dwell in such darkness or support any lifestyle that is enslaved to the sins you listed, is in deception.

  17. Clare Watts Feb 28th 2013

    Andrew, sadly there are a bunch of churches across the States who are welcoming the GLBT community, and Obama is pushing to have the law changed so that this is no longer even a “legal” issue. There is a saying, “There is no point in closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.” Only God can now reverse this tide of public and Christian support. Did he reverse the tide in the Great Flood? Why were only 8 people saved? – because only 8 were righteous. He didn’t turn the unrighteous around, but cleansed the earth of them. He promised no more Great Flood, but He DID promise that the earth would be cleansed with fire, and Jesus IS coming as a thief in the night.

    God said: “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13 & 18:22. Romans 1:18:32 & 1 Cor.6:9-10)

    Of course we must love these people, but one of the ways of loving them is to speak truth to them. We all know that often the truth is pretty painful to face, but there is great peace and freedom that comes from accepting the truth and dealing with the issue rather than spitting on those who bring the truth in love. Jesus was persecuted for speaking Truth to those who didn’t want to hear it, and He also said that those who follow Him would be persecuted for righteousness, and for following Him. It is going to be a big challenge to ALL of us in the days that are to come, to stand for the truth and Trust God completely to be there for us when we do.

    I thank you, Andrew, for speaking truth, and I pray that many will HEAR it and be turned to the LORD for their salvation and His Lordship of their lives.

  18. Vicki Lynn Feb 28th 2013

    I could be wrong and often am.

    But couldn’t a homosexual spirit be handed down from one generation to the next then so forth to many generations.

    Like a bitter spirit,or a controlling spirit seems to run in families.
    Which needs to be denounced.

  19. Seriously, I think its a matter of time before same sex marriages are approved by the government and made legal.

    Then it will be a matter of time before gays move into the church and if anyone complains they will be called racist bigots.

    In other words, gays will be the biggest persecutors of the Christian church. The media is already trying to make true Christians look bad before the world.

    Just a thought here.

    GaryB

  20. Bob Manditch Feb 28th 2013

    An accolade for Andrew.
    There are very few people who will not bow down to political correctness and would rather not “go with the flow” on such an issue.
    The old testament prophets, the apostles and Jesus Himself were faithful to God’s will on these matters and were trusted by Him to deliver His message.
    (Proverbs 29:25) Fear of man is a trap- those who trust in the Lord shall be safe.
    Is it any wonder why Jesus said in Luke 18:8 Would he find faith on the earth on His return?
    Blessings upon those who are prepared to be caring “watchmen” over the souls of others.
    Who will let them know God’s will in love and compassion, leading them to repentance and to the salvation of their souls.
    Bob Manditch.

  21. Barry Schmidt Feb 28th 2013

    Whatever happenned to Paul’s command here:
    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. (1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NASB)
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, (1 Corinthians 6:9 NASB)

    Maybe these verses aren’t in the Ausie Bible???

    I say invite and welcome all the homosexuals to Church – BUT ANY WHO CLAIM TO FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST AND WHO DO NOT AT LEAST ACKMOWLEDGE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN- “Don’t even eat with such a person.” But if a Christian who struggles with homosexuality admits it is sin and wants to be free- ACCEPT SUCH A ONE , BE PATIENT WITH HIM AND GIVE HIM ALL THE GRACE THAT GOD GIVES US WHO struggle with every other sin.

    Is it possible that THIS is what pastor Buckingham is trying to say? GOD I hope so! If not I wouldn’t give that false prophet the time of day.

  22. Leona Duncombe Feb 28th 2013

    Once upon a time homosexuality was hidden and the reason is because it is sin.
    Now it is pushed in our face at every turn with the intentional effect of lowering our natural abhorrence to it.
    I read in sundays paper that some schools will be trialling a new program…Pride, which is designed to inform our children that homosexuality is normal, with the stated aim of reducing bullying in our schools, even though bullying for the reason of sexual orientation is way down on the list of reasons why bullying occurs.
    No Christian should advocate bullying or violence
    toward any other person but we also should not be advocating sin as a legitimate choice. Our handbook for life is Gods Word and that word is pretty clear about changing the natural function of a man and woman to lust after one another.
    Just saying…

  23. Andrew,
    To your question, Is it too late?
    The answer that comes to mind is NO, unless God says it is. Case in point; throughout the history of Christianity and, previously, Mosaic Judaism, there have always been times of great and widespread darkness. BUT GOD… The key is the BUT GOD in Ephesians 2…
    Can God open the hearts of the lost and remove the blinding scales that make them unable to see the glory of Jesus? ABSOLUTELY. Can He still change not just a bunch of people, a small town, but change A WHOLE NATION? MOST CERTAINLY!
    Will be pray for that to happen? Or will be just give up and surrender to cynicism?
    Yes, I do believe the great apostasy is here, and is probably here to spread. I believe leaven has corrupted most of the bread… Is all lost? NO!
    Biblical discernment tells me the end of the age of Grace is coming soon. Faith and hope tell me.. perhaps whole nations will not convert in a Nineveh-like fashion as when Jonah preached. BUT WE SERVE AN AMAZING GOD. And if He wants to send revival ANYWHERE… HE CAN! AND HE WILL!
    The real question is: Who will stand in the gap? Who will pray, both for the Church living in Babylon and for the lost? Who will affirm the absolute sovereignty of God and the dynamite-like power of the True Gospel in saving sinners?
    If we are hurting and weeping over this… Crying out not in self-righteous judgmentalism but real concern and love for souls that are daily falling to hell… then there is hope. Let’s use that energy in Spirit-led prayers.
    Let us go to the throne of grace, knowing full well we will receive help from a Father who promised never to forsake us! And Jesus said ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME. ALL. NOT A LITTLE.
    THEREFORE, GO! Said He. GO PREACHING THE GOOD NEWS! GO MAKING DISCIPLES! GO BAPTIZING PEOPLE, SUBMERGING THEM IN MY PRESENCE AND HOLINESS!
    Either we are going, or we are praying for those who are going, or both. Standing on the sidelines is NOT an option!

  24. Bob Ward Feb 28th 2013

    Brother Andrew, as to the last remark/question on is it too late in the “C3 Churches Respond” article. I submit Jeremiah 7:16, 11:14 and 14:11. For those reading these references, there comes a time when God proclaims “enough is enough and correction must come and in part is already in effect”.
    Just as justice was made manifest to both ancient Israel and Judah. Justice must come to the ‘Church’ first and yet with the nations only baby steps behind, what with all the deception being sown throughout the world today. Bob Ward Mesa,AZ.

  25. I am about to throw a huge Spanner in the works but ask that you take a biblical view, NOT a churchianity view.

    There are three big issues that make this whole gay thing so horrible to deal with.

    1) The lie that ‘There is no “big sin” or “Little sin” Sin is all the same’. This Idea is not biblical. If it is show me. YESHUA himself said “Their (talking of the jews that wished to kill him) sin is greater”

    2) The lie that “Because We are not under the law, for Christ came to fulfil the law, we are free as long as we love’ – We are not slaves to the law, but as YESHUA himself said, anyone that teaches that GOD’s law is not important shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

    3) The lie that if we inform someone of thier sin then suddenly we are self righteous and Judgemental.- There is a HUGE difference between “Judging” some one and Condemning someone. With out the Judgement of Christ (Correction of Christ) I would still be living in sin and still be on a path to hell!!

    Anyhow. I know these things are seldom taught because it makes the truth hard to swallow and convicts us all.

    GOD bless.

    YAHWEH Gadol

  26. Bob Manditch Feb 28th 2013

    Hi Andrew,
    It seems that someone in the USA has taken the threat of Homosexuality acceptance very seriously. Here is the preface of a DVD produced by Jeremiah Films titled “Gay Rights/Special Rights”. http://www.jeremiahfilms.com/

    THE HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA IS A THREAT TO YOU…YOUR FAMILY… YOUR COUNTRY! Homosexuality is only 1% of this nations population, yet our freedom, basic morality, constitutional values, basic welfare and even our CHILDREN are under constant attack by this indulgence oriented group… Homosexuality is targeting our youth by preying on their vulnerability. Homosexuals are redefining the family to include all forms of sexual preference and perversion… Homosexuals have demanded that the 1964 Civil Rights Act be amended to make “sexual preference” a constitutionally protected right! Your church, business and school will be forced to employ homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, or those who practice pedophilia… It is time for God’s people to stand up! Tomorrow will be too late! This video will change you… And only you can change your country!

    Bob Manditch.

  27. Yes! We are to love the sinner, we were all sinners once, lost and on the road to hell but Messiah came so that sin can be forgiven. It is not love to want to see or tolerate your brother or sister as they persist in their sin and lost forever. The Shepherd who does NOT obey scripture, can not rightly divide the Word of God or is afraid to correct and rebuke in love is a hireling. What part of the following scriptures can a TRUE Shepherd NOT understand?

    Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

    Leviticus 18:221 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person.

    MATTHEW 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’

    Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Revelation 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    The SHEEP need to read their scriptures, adhere to them and if their Shepherd doesn’t – they need to find a new Shepherd!

    Lord strengthen your true servants and expose those that are not truly yours!

  28. wineskin Feb 28th 2013

    As I watch homosexuality parading itself into our social mainstream, I sense everything is right on target where God is concerned. That doesn’t mean I don’t flinch, but remembering that God is way ahead of me does make the inevitable easier to deal with.

    Records show that our Creator regards homosexuality as an ‘abomination’. I can’t help but agree, and have come to further realize that this particular abomination will play a huge role in the darkest times mankind will ever have to endure.

    As sad and bad as it is, there is no stopping homosexuality’s march into the temple where it does not belong.

    Come Lord Jesus, come.

  29. Darren Sargent Feb 28th 2013

    May I offer another rather telling societal factor that may have influenced this issue in Australia and farther afield: Hate Speech Laws. Many western societies are adopting draconian laws geared to not give offence, actually guaranteeing that that very same offence will be taken by the very minority groups who wish to leverage and coerce the majority. I think I am right in saying that there have been a number of high profile cases in Australia concerning the preaching of the gospel. For a pastor who is already indebted to the fear of man such a looming and threatening cloud can have a chilling effect on what is said from the pulpit and how the gospel is ‘adapted’ so as to avoid costly legal action or criminal charges; ‘love’ and ‘acceptance’ of certain groups may simply be terms of surrender or a signal of compliance to the authorities. To live before God without compromise requires the smashing of this yolk of fear and we must not subvert and lose the gospel forever just to co-exist without the threat of imprisonment.

  30. Valentina7 Feb 28th 2013

    this seems to tend to some “universal god” where there is love and no holiness.

  31. marc wildman Feb 28th 2013

    It can all be traced back to the circumventing of the original prototype God intended for His people. Which would be the simple organic structuring of His Church. It has been so far off kilter for so long, it’s no wonder we are now seeing Church leaders supporting/ endorsing sin and all of it’s counterparts.

    The strength that would have prevailed is founded on the church keeping it’s focus primarily on Jesus authentic mission statement. Following Christ by preaching repentance and living by faith. Not following the ‘unscriptural’ one-man band. 2000 years later we have anything but unity of purpose. We have elevated certain men, given them power, support and we keep forgetting they are only men? Men who are fully capable of exercising improper motives and leading the Body of Christ astray.

    This is the fruit of such disobedience from day one that the Body of Christ is now divided into numerous denominations. And as a result, true unity in Christ has become no more than a ‘pipe-dream. Everyone has a contribution, a new doctrine and has brought to the table some new way to reach God. The Church can be liken to a corporate enterprise where buying and selling becomes the pinnacle of our efforts.

    The only true freedom we have is in Christ, outside of His purpose nothing good can come of it. This is why Jesus said in the last days the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few. That’s because everyone is each going their own way and there is no solidarity whatsoever.

    What’s the solution? The ‘correction rod’ it’s plain and simple. None of want this but unfortunately it’s already begun. This entire subject on ‘gay rights’ is merely a symptom of a much deeper problem.

    That problem is we need an adjustment as in everyone is included. Whether or not we played are part once upon a time no one is without sin. That’s what my Bible says? Once oppression takes root in may forms as we have been seeing all along. This will begin to lead us back to the foundational principle’s we have disregarded. Persecution then is not only the solution but inevitable.

    W do need to love our neighbor unconditionally whether he or she is gay or a lesbian but we must preach repentance and the fact that these lifestyles are not acceptable. There is healing at the cross and each man and woman must lay their sins at Calvary.

    MW

  32. Gordon Feb 28th 2013

    Believing BUT not Believing: In others words, many are Be Lying (Be Lie; Be Liars to themselves): Check out 2 Thessalonians 2:1 The Great Apostasy

    Pentecostals/Gay Christians
    Expert: David Rockhold – 4/29/2002

    David:
    I am a 29 year old born again Christian attending a “word of faith” Pentecostal church. I am filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues very regularly. My relationship with God is my top priority in life, even when my hypocritical actions don’t always reflect that.
    Unfortunately, I have always struggled (since my very early 20′s) with the fact that my affections are not geared toward the opposite sex. I don’t really consider myself to be odd or weird or unusual, etc. If you met me on the street or in church, you wouldn’t know I was gay–there is no obvious sign of it, but it has been my irreconcilable issue, if you will–can one be a “gay Christian”?

    I’m assuming I already know you’re answer, as it would be almost unheard of for a Bible-believing Pentecostal-type Christian to think being gay is compatible with Christian life. I’m not firmly arguing that it is. I am merely looking for answers. I don’t have a clue what it’s like to want to marry a woman. I know EXACTLY what it’s like to want to share my love and my life with a wonderful, Godly man. I’m sure that probably sounds incredibly bizarre to someone who doesn’t have those feelings, but for me, they seem as normal as a heterosexual’s desire to fall in love.

    You probably can’t imagine what an issue this has been for me and countless gay men who love Jesus, but have a same-sex attraction that is as real to them as the gravity holding their feet on the ground!
    Whatsoever things we desire, when we pray, believe we receive them and we will have them. According to this scripture, I have stepped out prayerfully in faith and I believe that this issue is SETTLED once and for all for me. I’ve not seen the manifestation of having this issue resolved, but I am confident that God’s word cannot lie–therefore, I have that which I have prayed for.

    I’m not even sure what I’m asking you. Perhaps I just want to know if you have any insight for me. Are my “gay Christian” friends going to hell if they seek relationships? Must I merely accept a life of celibacy and loneliness? If I forced myself to pursue a heterosexual relationship, would this be terribly unfair to the woman? I’m not asking you to answer ALL of these questions (although you’re welcome to try)…I just want to know if you have ANY particularly relevant answers or insights or help for me.

    Thank you, Neil

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    Answer
    Hi Neil,
    I appreciate your apparent honesty and the fact that you are seeking insights from someone that you are sure will have a viewpoint that would oppose what you would want the answer to be. Most people seek out answers from someone they feel will justify the situation they are feeling ill at ease about.

    You wrote:
    What things soever we desire, when we pray, believe we receive them and we shall have them. According to this scripture, I have stepped out prayerfully in faith and I believe that this issue is SETTLED once and for all for me. I’ve not seen the manifestation of having this issue resolved, but I am confident that God’s word cannot lie–therefore, I have that which I have prayed for.

    I’m hoping that I am understanding you correctly in that you are saying that you believe you will have a resolution of this issue whether it be what you would want to hear or whether it would be against what you personally desire.

    The authority for all doctrine has to be the scripture. It doesn’t matter what I feel, what you feel, or what anyone else feels about a particular situation but rather, what does the Bible say about it. To use your words, the situation does seem “incredibly bizarre” to me. But that in it self doesn’t mean that it is against scripture. I was raised in the deep South in a family that had close ties with the KKK. Though I have thrown off those prejudices and some of the best friends I’ve had in this world are black, I’m still not really comfortable with black and white marriage. Just being honest. The point is however, as much as I’ve heard mixed marriages preached against as morally wrong in the South, I cannot find the Biblical authority to do so. What I’m saying, again, is that my feelings cannot override the Word of God.

    So, does the Bible address homosexuality? The answer is absolutely yes, beyond any doubt:
    (Romans 1:24-27 KJV) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

    Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

    (1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    (1 Corinthains 6:9 NIV) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

    (1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient . . . or whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind . . . and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    (1 Timothy 1:9 NRSV) This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient . . . fornicators, sodomites, . . . and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching
    There is, in addition to these scriptures, a look at God’s attitude toward homosexuality in the Genesis 19 story about Sodom and Gomorrah.

    In the face of all these scriptures, one would have to deny the authority of the Bible itself to support homosexuality. Neil, along with these scriptures is the fact that homosexuality is not the way God intended it to be. The anatomy of men and women show that to be true. He made them in the beginning male and female.

    You wrote: [Your feelings] seem as normal as a heterosexual’s desire to fall in love.
    There have been the same words used to justify leaving one’s spouse for another in an adulterous affair. And also to justify fornication. “If it’s wrong, why did God give me these feelings?!?” The fact is: God didn’t give them these feelings, but rather the lust of the flesh did. In the case of homosexuality, such lust is called “vile affections.” I hope you don’t think I am just trying to be hard on you, rather, I’m trying to show you God’s attitude toward homosexuality and that those feelings didn’t come from God. It isn’t the man who pats you on the back and lets you go to hell that loves you, but the one who tells you the truth.

    As serious as this offense is, there is certainly hope. I know of people who have overcome this sin. But you will have to first understand and admit that it is sin. A grievous sin. There is often, if not always, a spirit associated with this sin. I’m not saying you are possessed but that there is likely a spirit that is oppressing you and that you have allowed to hang around. You need to confide in someone, hopefully a pastor, who can help you conquer this thing. It is not hopeless. God can change this just as he can turn any man away from drugs, lust, alcohol, or any other sin.
    God can lead you out. But only if you acknowledge that the Bible is the authority, and that it clearly speaks in this matter. Neil, I’ll be praying for you. Your soul is precious to God and He wants desperately for you to be saved from the ravages that lifestyle will bring.

    Praying for you, David
    I’ll be gone the next few days but if you have any more questions, I’ll be back on May 10th. Don’t hesitate to ask.

    Hello Neil and David,
    I don’t really have an answer to this. Like you Neil, I have been struggling against homosexuality since my teens. Before anybody told me that it was wrong, I actually read it for myself in the Bible – I’m talking about 6 specific passages. It seemed clear enough.
    So, I tried various unsuccessful strategies from abstinence, to praying, to complete indulgence, to reparative therapy. Nothing has worked. Obviously I’ve had to face questions I never thought I would have to. In my searches, I came across the Apostolic Restoration Mission. Read up on what they have to say.

    I myself, have not really come to any decision, but I wish this could be prayed away / wished away or whatever. The fact is, it hasn’t. I’ve read of people who’ve been healed and people who haven’t. Also, I’ve come to see, based on plain facts, that the Bible has been subject to misinterpretation and / or manipulation by people – there are those that will admit / accept and those that will not. So, since this is SUCH an important issue in general, as well as in my life, it would be nice to get any kind of feedback from you guys about this. Thanks.
    Craig
    ——————————————————————————–
    Dee Dee wrote at 2008-09-23 00:06:53
    A person needs to pray for the Lord to fully deliver them from their unrighteous ways and desires. The lord does not dwell in an unclean temple.
    ——————————————————————————–
    William wrote at 2008-12-05 01:31:54
    What an interesting topic. I know exactly how you both are feeling. I have experience very strong attractions to the same sex ever since I was a small child. Even before I knew the meaning of homosexuality and heterosexuality.
    I am married and have two wonderful children. I thought marriage would change me. It did not. Being raised in a Pentecostal environment, I thought prayer and fasting would change me. (Believe me, I have done my share of both agonizing over this situation) The desires have never gone away.
    Certainly, I do not have all of the answers. I do know I feel like I am a homosexual. Not because of any actions, but because of the feeling I have in the very core of my being.
    I have been and am still extremely involved in the Pentecostal movement; however, this is something I have dealt with for more than 40 years now.
    William

    Saints …this is not a new thing! Now it is getting bolder and many of us are forced to mingle.

  33. jackrabbit Feb 28th 2013

    I smell a gold rush through the offering plate.

  34. Hisservant rich Feb 28th 2013

    Dear Andrew, you asked if it is to late. It would seem that the fact that we are even having this discussion should be answer enough.

    bro rich

  35. Brother Dean Mar 1st 2013

    The Word of God consistently informs those who read the Bible that homosexual activity is a sin. The reader can look at Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9. The Apostle Paul in Romans 1 verses 26 to 27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying Almighty God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6 verse 9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is specific.
    God does not create a person with homosexual desires. God’s word tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin – seeRomans 1 verses 24 to 27 and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger or rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.
    Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6 verses 9 to10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. Almighty God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. It is entirley up to that person whether he will accept the Word of God or rejects it. For each of us are given that choice.
    But biblical teaching on the subject is given a diffeent flavour by the so called christian gay group.
    Please note on the following web site who is the main speaker of one established church at the annual conference
    http://www.lgcm.org.uk/
    Homosexual relationships is promoted and acceptable on this web site too using the prefix of christian as part of its title
    http://www.lgcm.org.uk/
    Anyhting now goes in the sight of the Lord God Almighty. Anything now goes within the umbrella of the christian church.
    With the name of well known churches and movements that have been established in christendom, christianity is slowly and surley being replaced by another gospel allowing Lucifer to come as an angel of light spreading darkness and ungodly practices in the church.
    The Word of God assures and prophesies that the worst is yet to come in the End Times. Read the Book of Revelation sometime to find out.
    May our Heavenly Father bless you all.

  36. Brother Dean Mar 1st 2013

    Having shared these things, kindly listen to the words of this song to allow yourselves to keep your eyes fixed of the Lord Jesus Christ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-zwE33zHA
    May our Heavenly Father bless you all.

  37. Brother Andrew,

    Thank you for confronting this I am sure you feel as many of us do the ” we are voice crying in the wilderness.” This seeker friendly, user friendly, Christ compromising, Cross denying imation is filling there buildings with tares.

    Of course we accept sinners as they are when they come in but then at the when one is born again ” old things pass away and all things becoem new.” Jesus did come to save me in my sin but from it.

    Over the years in ministry I have ssen a number of homsexuals saved and delivered but we can NEVER COMPROMISE THE GOSPEL…..

  38. Kathleen in WA State Mar 1st 2013

    For many years I have been a member of a Baptist church; one that clearly & unapologetically teaches directly from the word of God. Typically messages are crafted about a book of the Bible (expository teaching), though sometimes they are more topical.

    The subject of sin in all of its forms is never dodged ~ be it the sin of homosexuality or any other. As we know: sin is sin. One is no better or worse than any other. Lying, hubris, & fault-finding, not to mention gambling, alcohol/drug abuse, adultery or pedophilia ~ to name a few ~ are equally as destructive as homosexuality. I sometimes find it odd that Christians have the ability to cozy up to pet sins, while castigating the more perverse. None should be normalized.

    That said, the church I attend welcomes sinners, including homosexuals with the caveat that they (or anyone knowingly practicing any sin) cannot be made a member, nor can they hold a position of service. If they are members, they are removed if/when their sin becomes known, and if they cling to rebellion. Truth is never marginalized, nor is sin accomodated. The church also offers counsel & a recovery process for repentant people wanting to be free of besetting sin in an effort to foster restoration.

    This all takes tremendous wisdom & maturity, and I am deeply grateful to see our pastors adhering to the truth of God’s word without compromise, and without losing sight of the love that underscores it all.

  39. If a person reads Romans 1:18-32, there is a progression.

    1. Because of unbelief, God gives people over to (sexual) uncleanness.
    2. If they still don’t believe, God gives them over to homosexuality.
    3. If they still don’t believe, God gives them over to a debased mind to do all manner of wickedness.

    I believe this is what we are seeing in our society. The sexual revolution came in the 1960s. God gave a time for repentance, but no response.
    So now we are seeing a homosexual revolution. Again, very little repentance is happening.
    Next step is a society which is totally debased and depriaved.

    The church is merely following society. How many churches have pastors who are willing to stand up and openly teaching sex outside of marriage / before marriage is sinful. How many pastors have no problem marrying a couple who is living together? Answer is precious few.

    So because the church does not address the issue of heterosexual uncleanness in the church, we are now seeing the leading wave of homosexuality in the church.

    If there are pastors out there who are concerned about homosexuals coming in the church – start the defense by taking a stand against hetereosexual sin in the church.

  40. Morgan Mar 1st 2013

    What about gluttony? Oh, it is not the big issue of today.

    Yes, homosexuality is a sin. A person that surrenders to the grace of God found in Jesus will grow in maturity and stop this behavior. There may be a struggle in this. There should be no condemnation, but support for the life that Christ calls us to.

    Back to my question about gluttony. 1/3 of the people are obese and 1/3 are overweight. I don’t hear anyone pointing that craving food (their idol) more than craving God is sin. This is something that must be dealt with. God made us to crave Him. We have been deceived into thinking that food will provide for us what only God can.

    This is a major issue in the church, but it is not as “big” as homosexuality. So we pick and choose, but God doesn’t.

  41. Jeff Dyas Mar 1st 2013

    If a person has a same sex attraction, and some of your commenters have indicated that they have been aware of such an issue for large parts of their lives – what exactly should they be repenting of?
    If they have been involved in homosexual acts – then yes, they need to repent and abstain with the help of God. But having done so and they still find an emotional attraction to the same sex – what do they do then?
    When you insist that those with homosexual feelings need to ‘repent’ – can you explain to them how they should do this?
    Perhaps we should go back to the good old days when those having same sex attraction feelings kept their mouths shut in church for fear of offending the ‘righteous’.
    By the way, since when does describing someone as ‘having an orientation’ imply that they must have been born with it?
    If you really want to help homosexual people then accept them as they are (as the Lord accepted you) then befriend them, love them, affirm them, encourage them until they are strong enough in the Lord to address some of the deep-seated issues that affect the very core of their beings. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit will bring about Godly change – your righteous indignation borne out of fear and a lack of trust in Almighty God will not.

  42. Gordon,
    The testimonies you picked up from another forum are really important. The sin issue is, undoubtedly, a key issue in the Bible, but so is grace and the redemptive power of God’s love, a tough but at the same time sweet love.

    When revealing something about His nature to Moses, both JUSTICE and MERCY are present. One without the other presents a faulty and incomplete Gospel which cannot save.

    We cannot ignore the fact that homosexuals are sinners, but on the other hand we shouldn’t overlook the fact that they are people who usually have a very hard history. Some of you have pointed out that, though there may be a gene giving you a tendency towards alcoholism, obesity, violence or homosexuality, this is more of an environmental issue than an innate condition. I believe that is true.

    If you allow me to use myself as an example, I was not born gay or bisexual… I began to develop those perversions as a result of a having father who was excessively strict, perfectionistic, quick-tempered, who had a tendency to say the most horrible things when angry, and a mother who was overly protective and nurturing, almost perfect in my eyes. To my knowledge, I was never sexually abused or molested, but I know that many gays have suffered such situations and they even admit they began to experience same-sex attraction AFTER those abuses.

    I thank God that in my case, those feelings have been almost absolutely conquered by an open and transparent relationship with Jesus, and no doubt part of my healing had to do with the fact God gave me an excellent partner, who satisfies me emotionally and sexually. (I’ve been happily married for 8 years) I prayed so much for that to happen! I do ocassionally feel attracted to a lady, but overwhelmingly when I feel an attraction towards someone who is not my spouse, it’s for a man. And I’ve always battled those illicit feelings (for males or females) the same way: with prayer and avoidance of the person causing the attraction, or taking emotional distance if avoidance was not possible.

    My point is, let’s remember these are hurting people whose primary need is for God (and us) to show MERCY for them. They need to be told that God understands every single act of rejection they’ve experienced, and how that has hurt them. They need to know that JESUS experienced much more rejection than they did, and experienced that rejection out of love for us. I don’t mean to be wishy washy or go for “acceptance as you are” because that’s not a Biblical answer. But talking about a God of wrath without stressing the fact that Jesus actually died for people like them… and who welcomes them if only they are willing to come and be changed in any way God wants to change them, that would present an incomplete Gospel.

    And I agree with some commenter who said having gay “feelings” does not necessarily mean you’re sinning. I have feelings and thoughts of envy, jealousy, anger, covetousness, that come to my mind as invaders looking for a place to establish themselves as permanent residents. (And I don’t think those thoughts are worse than gay thoughts, since all of them are in the list excluding me from Heaven if I have a lifestyle of practising these.) It all depends on what I do with them. Do I, through prayer requesting the Holy Spirit’s help, take every thought captive to obedience to Christ? If so, I haven’t sinned. The flesh, the world and the devil have tried to make me stumble but I haven’t fallen. But if I somehow “entertain” those thoughts, invite them in so to speak, THEN it will get harder to kick them out when it’s no longer fun to have them around.

    I understand how hard it is for a person with a sensitive conscience to have those unwanted thoughts when we know what the Bible says about homosexuality. It’s horrible to continue experience them after you’ve been a Christian for years. But the Bible says there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus. Some former gays and lesbians may have to battle strongly against these thoughts and never be fully delivered in this lifetime. That weakness (or any particular weakness we may have) can be a strength if it brings us to a life of self-denial and absolute dependence on Christ for grace, every single day, not to fall, in deed or thought. If our sinful tendencies remind us how weak we are, and how much we NEED the Holy Spirit to conquer the dark places that remain, then when sin abounds, grace will abound, and will eventually bring us to increasing victories. But then again, if we try to battle this or any other sins in the flesh, through self-effort, not only will we be defeated, but may one day think Christianity doesn’t work and backslide completely.

  43. Austin Hellier Mar 1st 2013

    Andrew,
    my next door neighbour is gay, but she knows that I definitely do not approve of her lifestyle – she also knows that I am a believer, and that I am in no way rejecting her because of her gay stance.

    I have made these things clear to her over time, and during several conversations, but she knows that I am capable of “loving the sinner and hating the sin,” which I believe is the balanced view (not compromise).

    I agree with you that the C3 churches’ stance is less than Biblical and is still prone to compromise. It just goes to show that those who suspected long ago, that both Charismatic and Pentecostal church structures were infiltrated by evil men and women who would do just this kind of thing, were right (see Acts 20: 29-31)

    “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

    and also Jude 1:4-

    “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    This seems to be the ‘thin egde of the wedge’ Andrew.

    Austin Hellier

  44. Andrew the answer to your last question is “Yes” for some it is too late. God is coming to NZ in judgement and it will begin with the church. The hirelings and false teachers will be removed and some by death because they have profained his sanctuary and defiled his people.

    There is a coming confrontation in NZ over homosexual marriage that God is watching. Whichever way our country goes will determine Gods response. His righeousness will testify to his truth that he must judge our nation.

    Homosexuality is a Giant in our land that needs to be defeated, and our battle with the principalities that are in authority over this sin and wickedness.

    as it says “just in the days of Noah so shall it be in days before the return of the son of man” It also says just as in the days of lot. What were the days of lot? sexual perversion and rampant homosexualility.

    and to those that say “love the sinner but hate the sin” a question….which goes to hell? the sin or the sinner?

    If you love them then tell them the truth!

  45. Barry Schmidt Mar 1st 2013

    I believe it was Dr Niel T Anderson who coined the famous statement: No one can consistently live in a way that is inconsistent with the way they perceive themselves”

    I firmly belief this to be the way God has created life to flow from roots to fruits.
    What we believe to be real and true about ourselves will produce feelings, thoughts, attitudes, actions and habits which spontaneously and effortlessly flow from the root of how we perceive ourselves.
    All homosexuality is rooted in a false per emotion of oneself. The feelings and desires for same sex always flow from this root and simply cutting off and renouncing the homosexual feelings, desires and behaviour is never the answer.
    They need to renounce the lie at the core of their identity perception- The truth will make them free. God never created a homosexual. He creates males and females.
    Only Jesus Christ can change a mans self perception. Jesus said , “you shall know the truth and that truth that you come to know shall set you free.”
    Only Jesus who is the truth can deliver a man from the lie which is at the root of all homosexuality.

    But coming to Jesus is. To possible without acknowledging and confessing the sin of homosexuality . Jesus came to save sinners- he did not come to save people who deny sin as sin and who hold to the lie that they are simply good people who were ” born that way” .

  46. David Marsh Mar 1st 2013

    Barry Schmidt, your insight into this problem is excellent.

    God bless you
    and thank you for sharing

    David Marsh.

  47. Well lambs of GOD……………………….we are nigh the end
    And our REDEEMER is coming AGAIN…………..
    warn all men as did paul………………………warn churches
    warn……………………….the end does draw nigh……….
    and souls must be saved.
    warn brothers and sisters in any SIN to GET OUT NOW
    we must be as was the early church………….
    and yes, fundamental christainity is under attack
    as were the jews before adolfs time………..
    they were blamed………………so too shall we more and more
    be seen as haters and only in the way of world peace and unity.
    As with the jews………………..words became actions against
    them……………and most churches thought hitler a man of GOD.
    because they were lost from true doctrines, even had
    church movments back them called EMERGENT movment…..
    same as today…………..ONLY TODAY its WORLD WIDE
    and the next man of peace……………..will DESTROY world wide
    WE nigh the very end……………………
    warn…………………….warn and do all to the GLORY of GOD.
    amen.

  48. Renee Mar 1st 2013

    Just to be clear on where Andrew Marin is coming from- please note his blogroll- entitled “blogs that I actually read” on the right.
    http://www.loveisanorientation.com/speaking-schedule/

    And the number of consultation in DC, some private.

    Sorry C3 – this is not gospel teaching. It is clearly….another gospel.

    I know some of us will feel like, yes, we agree, we have not loved sexually broken people enough…but if you allow the Enemy to kick open that door of guilt, a Trojan Horse of another gospel will come through.

    Love is an Orientation is a MOVEMENT that is being passed on to churches and denominations. Please notice the “I’m sorry” shirts that are being worn at Gay Pride events…and the movement coming out of it.

  49. Renee Mar 1st 2013

    Andrew Marin, of the Love is an Orientation book and movement, promotes “The Shack” and speaks at the World Council of Churches in a closed meeting.

    http://www.loveisanorientation.com/2012/the-shack-author-wm-paul-young-in-chicago-tuesday-nov-27/#comments

    “The reason extremists are so extreme” under the category “Haters.”
    http://www.loveisanorientation.com/2012/the-shack-author-wm-paul-young-in-chicago-tuesday-nov-27/#comments

    Dark days ahead- praise God that Jesus wins and has already won. May we faithful to endure.

  50. stephen boyce Mar 1st 2013

    the gays have their own bible. it is called the queen james bible it is to stop homophobic interpretation of the world of god

    stick to the king james dont use the queen james

  51. RENEE is right…………..
    BEAR your CROSSES saints………………..
    IF you sell out to this false LOVE………….
    the end is death.
    I will NOT be made to feel guilty for speaking truth.
    What GOD has called abomination
    man now calls lifestyle, and worse the churches are embracing it.
    When all stand before GOD……………
    what shall they say …………..
    JESUS did not come to make void the law
    and we dont either. We magnify the law by the SPIRIT upon our heart.
    DID Christ omit the law………….
    GOD forbid……………..
    Why would he have said what he did on the sermon on the mount.
    NOT only did he say YE have heard what is written
    HE said NOT to even entertain it in THOUGHT.
    WOW. NOW that is an eye opener and i pray a heart opener.
    IF a man even LOOKS ………………….
    how much WORSE if HE DOES…………….
    WE are to kill all evil thoughts and they shall NEVER be acted out.
    As it is written……………..TAKING captive ALL THOUGHTS
    to the OBEDIANCE of CHRIST.
    BUY THE TRUTH and sell her Not……….
    for many have snuck in unawares ………….and have POISNED the flock with a FALSE SENSUAL LOVE.
    BUT LOVE is about the END reward………..NOT comforts in life.
    IF we tell a man or woman they are fine………….when they are in sin…………….WE LIE and tell NOT the truth.
    IF i feed them, house them, but warn them not
    THE END is death. BUY the truth and sell her not.
    IF the end of that man who remains in his sin is death
    and i warn them NOT ………………..whose BLOOD is required of me. IF i tell them and they repent……………..PRAISE GOD
    IF i tell them and they repent NOT………….then their soul , their blood will be required of their own heads
    BUT i am free of the blood of the wicked.
    FOR it truly is GODS desire that none perish
    BUT that the wicked turn from his wickeness, REPENT
    and COME to CHRIST , pick up their CROSS and follow HIM.
    IF we are OF HIM……………….then we walk as DID HE.
    And warn . RENEEE is RIGHT on.
    Stand firm lambs………………….many who walk after the flesh
    are in many pulplits now…………..and bring a doctrine which the carnal mind can recieve. IT speaks of love
    but the end is death. and if the END be death……..HOW IS THIS LOVE………………….REPENT YE and BELEIVE the GOSPLE
    should be OUR HEART, OUR PEACE and may souls be won.
    amen.

  52. Renee is right …………..
    HARSH times are coming for those who HOLD to the TRUTH
    and LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD and not men.
    FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTANITY is UNDER MASSIVE attack.
    BIBLE believing CHRISTAINS are about to undergo
    MASSIVE persecutions……………BUT
    FEAR NOT lambs of GOD……………..REJOICE in CHRIST
    rejoice when we are made to suffer FOR HIS NAME sakes
    REJOICE when we are persecuted for HIS NAME SAKES
    on their part he is evil spoken……….but on our part HE IS GLORIFED…………….REJOICE the REWARD is GREAT.
    THIS life is but a vapour and our persecutions and trials
    but a light affliction which shall hold for a greater weight of
    GLORY………….
    YES……………READ the bible
    read what paul said, peter said.
    OUR LORD is coming.
    And PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME………..
    TO GOD be the GLORY …………TO GOD be all praise.
    WHEN our enemies come for us
    when they come to eventually round us up
    and even kill us…………..
    PRAY……………
    and SAY……………………O LORD FORGIVE THEM
    LAY NOT THIS SIN TO THEIR CHARGE…………..
    FOR GIVE all……………their trespasses against us.
    FOR by GRACE are we saved
    and forgiven based on what CHRIST DID.
    BUT BUY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT.
    PRAISE THE LORD…………….
    i shall NOT fear man……………………
    ONLY GOD. amen.

  53. Christians should stand against homosexuality but not forget the redemptive ministry to deliver and change homosexuals.

    Check former Gay testimony below.

    http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cross-gaychange.html

  54. I was given choice by God Almighty in trying to destroy Jews and Christians in my path. Also using occult powers as a tool of power and control.
    That choice that evening was to I repent or continue with what I was doing and if the latter that eveing I woudl face a physical death.
    I glad that I became a born again christian that evening.
    If I did return to my old ways and lifestyle, I know Almighty God would remove me and that would be by death and separation from Him who gave me a new lease of life by following the Lord Jesis Christ. That was 43 years ago.
    So please don’t make excuses for those practising homosexuality, and if they repent of their sins as I did, they can grow in Christ and become the person the Lord wants them to be.
    To return to their old lifestyle and to reject Christ by doing so would be dangerous and foolish for one cannot be born again twice..

  55. Truth, you miss quoted God’s Word!
    exodus 20:_
    And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    5 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
    6 Thou shalt not kill.
    7 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    8 Thou shalt not steal.
    9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
    Pr Michael

  56. Stephen Mar 1st 2013

    This issue has been hotly debated and the cause of many divisions for years now. 20 years ago the Presbyterian Church in Canada, thankfully, decided that, while orientation may be biological, it was not ok to practice homosexuality. They had had the report they had commissioned for 12 Years at that point and everytime it came up in the General Assembly (National Level) there was this rabid 20% that kept trying to push the report one way or the other. 10 % said it was too strong and 10% said it wasn’t strong enough and those two factions kept the debate raging. Finally, a teenager stood up and yelled at the assembly of 500 delegates from across Canada that Satan was laughing at them and that they were behaving like the World. Later on that young person was invited back to say his piece and apologized for his outburst but not what he said; only how he said it. The moderator put it to the vote and the report passed. The 10% supporting homosexuality as acceptable has been trying to change that vote ever since.

    Any time the church relies on worldy wisdom and worldly methods to do anything it tempts the fires of Hell. Most church governments are democracies which isn’t modelled in Acts as near as I can tell. I’ve been in church meetings where only a few were being lead of the Spirit while the majority were in the Flesh if only for the moment of decision. We were voting to call a pastor and I was one of three that said no even though I wanted very badly to say yes. The 90% said yes. The Spirit intervened and the callee declined, believing God was calling him to another ministry field entirely and that he needed to be true to that vision. It would have been a disaster for us and him had he said yes. The majority is often wrong and this bears out biblically.

    Is it too late? In some ways it has always been too late. The end will come. The path of suffering for Christ is ever before us. This issue seems to be driving towards persecution of the Elect more then any because people don’t like to be called sinners and their actions sinful. It echoes too loudly with their conscience and so they have to try all the harder to shut it and us up. A man in Saskatchewan was recently convicted of hate speech for calling homosexual activity morally wrong in several flyers he was distributing. I haven’t seen them and maybe he went too far but as near as I can tell this is the one behaviour that won’t tolerate being called wrong. I can call an adulterer wrong and they will agree even if they don’t change their behaviour. I can call a thief a sinner and they will agree. Call homosexuality sinful behaviour and suddenly you are before the courts on charges of hate crime.

    I believe this issue will be the one that leads to wide scale persecution of the Church and it will probably start because some irate firebrand who calls himself christian (but isn’t) will get so incensed that he goes over the edge and commits a terrorist act either against the government or the GLBT lobbyists in the name of Jesus and the world will stand up and say,”See what they are like. We can’t allow them to keep terrorising us. Who knows what they will do next?”

  57. Renee Mar 1st 2013

    COMING TO AUSTRALIA AND NZ MARCH 2013-
    -Speaking at C3 Bayside Church, Melbourne, and speaking on Christian Radio March 21, 2013.
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/loveisanorientation/2013/02/im-speaking-throughout-australia-and-new-zealand-the-next-month/

    This is literally an assault on Christianity. It is not really about compassion, love and mercy for GLBTs BUT is attacking Scripture and presenting another Gospel that is able to “coexist” with many opposing views. No wonder the UN is promoting this man so strongly. He is a CHANGE AGENT. If you disagree- you are called a “hater” or an “extremist.” (What a malleable term that one is)

    I know my heart and my background working with HIV/.AIDS orgs and in the arts. Some of my favorite and best friends have been gay throughout the years. But the true HATE here is for the word of God and the truth it contains.

    You are right to warn, Andrew. This is HUGE.

    From Andrew Marin’s bio:

    Andrew Marin, of Love is an Orientation is a major proponent, change agent and “bridge builder.”

    From his bio at his new blog:

    “Since 2010 Andrew has been asked by THE UNITED NATIONS to advise their various agencies on issues of BRIDGING OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS, civic engagement and theological aspects of reconciliation.”

    It seems many believers will be pushed out of their churches and denominations, once this Gay Gospel really takes root.

  58. fabakary Mar 1st 2013

    Truth has a spirit. And Error or Sin has a Spirit. You can know Error without Living in Error, but if
    You are possessed with the Spirit of Error; you can’t help but must live in Error. “..By this we know the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error ..(1john4v6)
    You can know Truth without Living the Truth, but if you are possessed with the Spirit of truth you live truth. It was written of Jesus that He was FULL of Grace and Truth. He was not only Full of Truth but Also Full of Grace. Grace Speak of the Spirit of Truth. Those In Christ Jesus received Grace from Christ to Live Truth. “And of His fullness we have all received and Grace for Grace “. Remember the Spirit of Truth is also the helper meaning He help us to live Truth. “But when the helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, The Spirit of Truth,”. Before this time the disciples get a lot of truth but they need the spirit of the Truth they know to live Truth. We are told Christ is the Spirit “Now the Lord is the Spirit …(2Corin3v17).
    Truths are needed but I believe we will all agree Truths alone are not enough to fight against the Spirit of error. We should not think we have got the victory over Error because everyone accepts the truth we share but until everyone has the Spirit of Truth, which is a relationship with Christ. Looking at our individual lives how many truths do we know, and how much of those trusts do we live? But we all know, with Christ working in us, we can live every Truth we know. There is little different between rejecting truths and accepting truths until those truth are lived. And to Live Truth is to have a relationship with the Spirit of Truth. “The end of the world, the end of the world” ,we can easily shout when people do not accept truths but what about when the truth are accepted without the spirit of truth ? Does that mean the end of the world is far? That will only mean holding the truth in unrighteousness, because there is no relationship with the spirit of truth, to live the truth. The only way to eradicate error is having a relationship with the Spirit of Truth , all other ways can only serve as means , to the spirit of truth, but if we are not careful in such means ,we will think we have reach home, when we see the success of the means.

  59. Matthews 7 verses 21 to 23 says this
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
    This is Christ who is declaring this and yet leaders of the church ignore this and cover this up saying that these folk are part of the christian church and thus false teachers and prophets should not be exposed by christians ( believers) today.
    It does not make any sense as we face the Last Days when wolves are dressed up to be sheep and with their ungodly practices and erronous teachings we are told to ignore despite their destruction.
    If Christ does not recognise them later surely He does not recognise them now in what they do?
    Are we as the true church (the Body of Christ) are allowed to warn about the Great Deception when those involved and leading the way or say believers should do so because of this and that explanations.
    The homosexaul and lesbian lobby have and are putting themselves into positions in the christian church and soon with their influence on the youth and the church establishment, the church will become unrecogniseable with biblical and sound doctrine.
    What has taken place in Australia and New Zealand regarding the acceptance of homosexuality in christian churches, has already taken place in churches in the UK and the USA. Not much difference.
    The speed at which the church is being taken over has gone supersonic and the poison will spread to its heart.
    When churches alter doctrine to suit themselves compromising biblical teaching with something else, what else will they entertain to get bums on seats?
    For already fads are seen at church such as tattoos, signs and wonders coming from the occult realm, the want of becoming prosperous, and of course allowing false teachers and prophets in their midst, and thus no longer following Christ but men.
    I have not seen this world wide revival in the past or will ever see this in the future while I remain on earth. What I have seen before my very eyes, and with brethren all over the world, is a falling away from the Truth.
    Almighty God is mocked and His word continues to be changed by man to suit religion and the trends going on in the world. All done in the name of Jesus to modernise the christian church for the 21st century.
    Take heed and be warned because what lies ahead in the Great Deception is only the tip of the iceberg. What is hidden beneath the waters is horrendous and destructive and is a wake up call to everyone.
    I would like to provide a song which will be of encouragement as with other uplifting songs given in comments.
    Listen to this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhvaDJTUmrU

    Shalom!

  60. Anna M. Mar 1st 2013

    In ‘only’ one sense is ‘orientation’ fitting terminology For we are all orientated (born) lost sinners. Remaining in the position of rebellion (iniquity/self will -Mt.7:21-28) to The Holy of Holy God. Our position is a position of CHOICE. God’s holiness will never change, despite the endless efforts of sinful man. To truly love God is to hate evil.

    Ps. 97:
    10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil; he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
    11 Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.
    12 Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

    Lost man has cast off God’s holiness, he labors to change the incorruptible God into a corruptible god; marred and subject to sin, equal to the fallen creature.
    “We are already like him, no need to change” philosophy! We hope to have rendered God, unable to judge the sin of man. Here alone, can man find a temporary balm for a diseased conscience.
    *dear ones, …it won’t work! * He is HOLY, aware of all our sin, and our consciences will never be able to sidestep his judgement of all sin. Praise Him, his reign is eternal and holy. His kingdom hastens as this world spirals down in darkens. He will deal with all sin. He speaks now, will we harden our hearts to his bidding? He sacrificially provided a change in the orientation (nature) for every rebel lost. A new nature compliant to God…the very nature of Jesus Christ in rebellious man. We can now do what we want to, but he has changed the ‘want to’ to desiring His Will over our will. None of us, is totally perfected in behavior, though it has become the direction of the heart, if not the perfection of the heart. We now have a God capacity to follow his ways. We must be born again. The new nature alone, shall survive God’s wrath over sin. It is Christ’s Nature in us, risen from the dead AFTER enduring God’s fiery wrath of all sin on our behalf. He is Victor in us! If we cast Him aside, we remain yet doomed to the fires of the judgement of a Wonderful Holy God. -John 3:17 All man’s righteousness is filthy rags to God. We cannot glimpse the holiness of God. The moment will come when we all stand before him. As he cannot look upon sin, what shall happen to us then? POOF? Were it so simple! No, an eternity to let the consequences of our poor CHOICE sink in. Eternity to remind us of all we rejected in His Holy Provision Nature in us. Will we be as the rich (unregenerate/lost) man who cried out from hell- or hear his voice now, not rejecting but repenting of our self serving love? His Word warns us over and over. Hearken…Listen..Act..Repent..!

    Luke 16:
    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
    28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
    30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
    31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    This man had earthy wealth, yet we all have a greater wealth…this is the day of grace! We have a wealth of Bible knowledge and opportunity, yet we reject God’s Words. We have hated the holiness of God, casting it off at every opportunity. That is why (present tense), the heathen (unregenerate) rage. Ps.2 They band together joining hands in large number to cast off the restraints of God’s Words. We have but one covering, it is the Righteousness of Jesus Christ. Repentance and Christ’s atonement covering are synonymous. God’s Truth being, we cannot truly love the sinner, without truly hating the sin. It is like a parent watching illness ravish their child. Sin ravishes the sinner. True salvation is at the foot of the cross where Jesus Christ hated sin enough to engage it’s evil to the end. It is over. He HAS procured the freedom over sin. His new nature can now indwell the unworthy recipient of Such Great Grace. The day of choice is now. These are not the ramblings of a few people. They are the words of a Holy God. ‘ Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:1, 2). All sin separates us from Holy God. May his mercy and grace bring us all to continual repentance and humility before Him. May we act in accordance with God’s Word to preach the Gospel in truth, even WHEN it convicts of sin in us ALL! This is true love and mercy.
    http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davison/roy/allen/1940/today.html

  61. lastblast Mar 1st 2013

    None of this is surprising. Disappointing? Yes, but not surprising to see. Here in the U.S, I believe soon we will have just about every state legalizing same sex marriage/unions. I believe the Lord is allowing this evil to continue and grow. Why? Because the Church (the professing one) already opened the doors to immorality. We are reaping what WE have sown. When we forsook Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings on marriage and put our stamp of approval on adulterous unions (remarriage), WE opened the door to what we are now seeing. WE are hypocrites. WE speak about the influx of homosexuals (practicing) in the churches, but we stay SILENT on the adulterers/adulteresses in the Churches. Those in authority in the Churches have lost all credibility—with the brothers and sisters who SEE this going on—- and even worse, with the WORLD who sees our sins and sees us calling out SOME sins, but ignorning others in our midst. There are more than half of all church going people who are living in adultery according to the Lord’s Words……………..yet, for the most part……………nothing is said. Or worse yet, it is taught that “grace abounds” in these unions God did NOT put together. Yet we tell the homosexual that grace does NOT abound for THEM to stay in their illicit unions that God did not join together. MOST of the professing Church is BLIND on this issue or if they see “some” of the truth, they don’t want to dig any further because of what it may COST THEM when they see the FULL picture of how far the professing Church has gone away from the Lord.

    Until we are willing to deal with what is and has already been before us, nothing much we say on the homosexuality issue will hold much weight. Until those who are in heterosexual ILLICIT relationships are called to REPENT (forsake those ILLICIT relationships, not joined by God as one flesh), we will not be heard on the homosexuality issue.

  62. When your carrots do not work, all you have left is a stick!

    The “church” does not have an effective response to help those who are struggling with their sexuality, and rather than find one (ask Jesus), they are too quick to reach for the stick.

    This I am afraid includes Mr Andrew Strom. Until you have put the effort in to learn what the Lord’s actual solution is, to help these hurting and needy folks, you really aren’t qualified to speak on the subject. Otherwise you may just end up using the scripture as an excuse to abuse people.

    I have witnessed the Lord himself speak in revelation directly to gay guys and girls, he is always very kind, always offers them hope and helps them on the next step to healing and wholeness whatever that may be. It is interesting to hear a gay guy learn by revelation through Holy Spirit that no-one is born gay and being “gay” is a choice.

    your servant in Christ

    Keith

  63. Anna M. Mar 1st 2013

    He identified with us in Sin, now we must identify with him in bearing the Cross. Deny self, bear up the weight of your sins upon His cross. It seems oppressively heavy now, yet he has borne the sins of man. We must choose . . . † . . . “The Power of the Cross”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BAPvqeFnjE

  64. We cannot force our views on people. Treat homosexuals as Christ would. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting and we need to preach the whole
    gospel including homosexualism is a sin clearly. Let the Holy Spirit do the work, love those people with His love and let them respond. It is their responsiblity to respond.

  65. Remember humans are in original sin until redeemed! That is Christ’s work as well as the Holy Spirit.

  66. Paul rebuked the church at Corinth for taking the same stance of “acceptance” for sexual sin and the sinner and Paul stated that they did it because of their pride. They felt “they were better Christians” by over looking the one in their congregation practicing sexual sin and Paul stated “Don’t you know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump.” He exhorted them to put the sinner out of their congregation so that he would experience Godly sorrow. Paul said that he turned him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh so that he could be saved. I don’t see a difference here. The church who professes acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle feels superior to the “intolerant” Christians which stems from pride. Again, I believe we should love the sinner, but Jesus and John the Baptist preached repentance first in order to be saved. Without the message of repentance and a true repentant heart, there is no real salvation. This is just another one of satan’s deceptions to convince a specific group of people that all they have to do is pray a little prayer, without any expectation of repentance, and they will be saved. All the while, they are destined for an eternity cut off from God and we are responsible for it because of our false doctrine. Their blood will be on the hands of those promoting this heresey. After all, what Jesus came to save us from was our sins, not hell. If we are still practicing sin, how saved are we?

  67. lastblast Mar 1st 2013

    Excellent response, Joanne………

  68. God loves the homosexuals – for God so loved the world – but He doesnt love the sin – we are called to do the same.
    True repentance means we turn from our old way of life – a lifestyle change!
    No difference between the man and woman living in fornication – living in adultery – no lifestyle change. Jesus said – go and sin no more!
    The old has gone – the new has come.There must be a lifestyle change!
    Jesus said I am THE way – the TRUTH and THE LIFE – His lifestyle. The gay lifestyle is not Christ’s life – it is sin. There is no difference between the gay lifestyle and the heterosexual lifestyle living without marriage – in adultery. IT IS STILL SIN!

    Yes we speak truth – and nothing but the truth – there must be a change in the heart first and then the outer will change.

    People change when they receive Jesus in their HEARTS not in their heads – it is all about love- its an issue of the heart folks – a heart change – surgery in the heart. That is what they must preach. Do not accept the lifestyle – NEVER!
    But love them Jesus’ way.
    “Above ALL things, have fervent love among yourselves – for love shall cover the multitude of sins” 1 Peter 4:8

    When we truly know how much JESUS loves us – we will love others with Jesus love – not with condemnation but with TRUTH – Jesus came to dispel the LIE – and give us the Holy Spirit of Truth.
    The Holy Spirit will do the work in each person – He will reveal His truth – if we will love them with THE TRUTH!!!

  69. Amen Jim!

  70. miss bridgewater Mar 1st 2013

    The mainstream Pentecostals are letting them in because they themselves are not repentant of their own sin, of occult practices, so why would they shut the doors on gays. I wouldnt walk into a gay church any more then a demonic filled pentecostal one, YES ANDREW I believe its too late, and judgement has fallen upon the church, I was gay many years and left it many years back and happily live celebate and promote the gospel and live for the lord, but as far as any church goes, who cares what they accept when the whole bunch of all the denominations are FULL of unrepentant sin of all sorts, It’s worldly empires being built here on earth, not kingdom, and people are taking the gospels home with them and leaving Judgement fall where it may.

  71. miss bridgewater Mar 1st 2013

    I share the gospel and all the warnings to the glbt community when ever I can, people are so bent on the idea that they must be in the world church for some reason and all you end up getting is a stronghold. Gays should never walk into any church that has the reputation of exclusion while they themselves are full of sin. We in modern history have never known how to do real church, religion has been the creation of the enemy, he did say he would sit on top of the congregation and gays should stay the Hades out of them all and ask the lord to come in their own house, make your own house a house of the lord, most have a minimum of 3 who could come together and take the gospel out to the world, who needs this great apostasy church. Now, here you have the enemy who created the church/divided and now is ready to come in and UNITE, They will think a savior has come, and there is only ONE thing responsible for uniting them, a spirit working in false lying great signs and wonders, they will all hail this thing. If any member of the glbt community read this, heed the warning, stay out of the forming one world church, they never wanted you to begin with and now you must ask yourself now why, after all this time are they opening the doors, one they want your money, two to give you a spirit. GET out as fast as you can, and the universalism churches GET OUT. So many pastors today talk there is a mighty wind of revival here, sorry to disappoint but it is the mighty wind of JUDGEMENT, not one of blessing! It’s the opposite! Revival begins at home, let the lord come and dine with you!

  72. miss bridgewater Mar 1st 2013

    We;ve heard so many times over a hundred years that sodom opened put their sin out in public, well well well, Look how the sin of worship of mammon is on open display, look how the sin of occult practice is on open display, sexual sin also on open display by ALL people in the church, nobody can point a finger at the secular world for doing exactly the same thing. The church itself puts all sorts of sin on open display with no shame, gays are not the only ones guilty of this. Violence is on open display, created by the church and government, and the mystery religions are full of it. God has exposed all of it for all to see! Now get ready for the mighty wind of judgment as it will be this that leads many to repentance. So many think they are going to be part of the ruptured bride, the ten virgins are the prime example god gave us, note there are ten virgins, and only 5 make it, all the rest will need to face great trial and tribulation in order to be refined no single group need think they are going to be excluded as I am quite sure each of us need refined as there is only ONE who really can see into hearts, we always judge what we see. Jesus did say to the pharisees the prostitutes and tax collectors are ahead in line, nothing is different today. Sinners know they need a savior, church folks I wonder about.

  73. Dave Burke Mar 1st 2013

    Is it not our duty as Christians to lead people to the same freedom and truth we ourselves know in Christ? Is it ok, as Christians, to allow someone to take the wide path to hell to spare their feelings. Can we Christians all just sit back and say nothing when we know that enemy is using cunning lies to deceive so many people??? The so called “acceptance” we are speaking of is not love!!! Sin still requires repentance as it always has and will, on this earth. If we do not say “no this is wrong” are we not saying “it’s ok”? We may just as well say keep lying, keep stealing, keep murdering, keep cheating, keep getting drunk and high…and on and on. Our mighty and loving God is unchangeable and nothing we do can change His truth and righteousness. The truth is the truth no matter what the father of lies puts out there. Taking his bait; hook, line, and sinker, only leads to eternal torment…which is realized in being forever severed from the creator. The alternative is to tell the truth, in love, and allow God to work in the hearts of the lost.

  74. Homosexuality is not a orientation, as well as adultery, fornication, etc. And are not a matter of ” not my fault issues” It’s all sin and against the one and only Holy God. It is written!!!
    The problem is that most churches don’t preach what is sin any longer and that God calls us to come out from sin. Therefore, sinners become comfortable living in their sin and in church. They quench the conviction of the Holy Spirit by not preaching on coming out from sin and repenting.

  75. Lee Brown Mar 1st 2013

    I was appalled when I read the comments made by Rob Buckingham. Is he also going to say that it is ok to live together before marriage?
    As a mother of a homosexual son I am definately not homophobic. I love my son, but hate the sin. Unfortunately my son was able to “marry” his partner at the British Embassy in 2011. They had a service for family and friends a few days later. Attending my son’s “wedding” was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do and I was devastated – I actually broke down when the service started. The other family felt the same as they are also Christians – we went to show our sons that we still love them and so does God.
    We are to show homosexuals love but at the same time let them know that they are sinning and that is not acceptable. Christians get a bad reputation when some “Bible bash” homosexuals, but Rob Buckingham has gone too far in the other direction in the way he has “accepted” them into his church. It is sad when he has the greatest opportunity to witness to them out of love. Accepting them into his church but not confronting them isn’t getting them into heaven, so how can that be a good thing?
    Christians need to stand up and make a stand, not be afraid of the repercussions of what people think. The disciples were persecuted, Christians in other countries are being tortured, we just get ridiculed and can’t cope with it. All Christians, not just a few, need to be as outspoken as the so called “minority” groups. We are meant to be a “Christian” country but sadly, Christians are becoming the minority.

  76. Lightning Storm Mar 1st 2013

    Homosexuality is rooted in SELF-WORSHIP.

    It is SELF-LOVE indulged to its FULLEST degree.

    It is NOT a “sexual lust” problem, it is a SELF-LOVE that has been indulged in to the point of becoming YOUR OWN GOD AND WORSHIPPING YOUR SELF by finding another person or persons that REFLECT YOUR IMAGE.

    A homosexual has become his/her own GOD and recruits worshippers in his/her OWN IMAGE.

  77. Lightning Storm Mar 1st 2013

    The churches welcome people who Love themselves more than God all the time.
    (as long as that person LOOKS like/REFLECTS that particular group of church people)

    What’s the Difference?

  78. Lightning Storm – If I understand you correctly -do we not all love ourselves more than anyone and anything else – anyone who walks after the lust of the flesh? Have we not all walked according to the flesh rather than according to the Spirit?

    - I do believe the church is supposed to be an hospital – we are called to show them the TRUTH in LOVE so there can be healing of hearts!

    They need a new life!. Have we not all been out there – homosexual/heterosexual have all been out there – many have accepted the lifestyle of homosexuality – because they have never experienced TRUE LOVE – unconditional love – the hurt – the wounded – the rejected and abandoned – that’s who “they” are! Love is the key to healing of hurting hearts.

    They need to come with their sin – Jesus went to sinners – He called sinners – He did not go for those who were clean but the unclean – to be accepted in and by the church – it is there that we are SUPPOSED to be healed of our sin as we come just as we are with all our fithly rags

    But then when they come to us – we tell them the truth of their sin – that the lifestyle is not Christ’s life style – we show them Jesus’ love. They have a choice if they are willing to leave the world – and change -by the power of the Holy Spirit – by conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    As in the natural so in the Spirit – if you have been in hospital and not getting better because you dont want to take your medicine – they will eventually discharge you because you have made your choice

    If, after much time, there is no change – there is no willingness to leave the old lifestyle – then 2 Cor 5 will apply – - we preach the truth of sin – the truth of Christ’s love – to go and sin no more and join the body of Christ – a new creature IN Christ.

    But if there is true repentance – true change – then everyone should be welcome! Come all sinners come – it is the goodness of God that draws people to repentance- our God is a God of grace and truth – of mercy and lovingkindness – that’s who we need to be!

    Do we not believe the WORD of God and the SPIRIT of God can do its work when it is preached and lived in Love and in Truth!

  79. PEOPLE…………………..i believe miss bridgewater has said
    Much truth.
    and so have some others………….
    A lil leaven leavens the whole lump.
    It starts small……………but only worsens.
    The leaven began LONG before gays ever entered .
    THe prosperity gosple of man is a LIE of satan.
    GREAT gain is GODLINESSS with contentment.
    And judgments have begun.
    Remember in Revelations…………..GOD tells the lukewarm
    church …………I COUNSEL thee to buy of me GOLD tried in the FIRE…………………that ye may be rich.
    YET he tells the POOR church of sardis who has suffered persecutions and afflictions……….BUT YE ARE RICH.
    YES……………..harsh persecutions of actual physcial chastening
    is coming UPON all believers.
    IT is my hope that some of the lukewarm will BUY the GOLD tried in the FIRE.
    ALL who live godly in Christ shall suffer persecutions.
    and paul made mention that when we are JUDGED
    we are CHASTENED of GOD…………that we be NOT condemened with the rest of the world.
    SO let us not be as the parable of the seed
    who fall away when persecutions arise…………..LET this ONLY
    be the time to REJOICE that we TOO are counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. and pray for souls to be saved.
    All of what we are SEEING was prophesied LONG ago
    that in the LAST days it would come to pass………..
    A great dearth is coming……………………..and it will be so great
    that NO FLESH would survive IT………………….BUT for the elects sake…………………..it will be shortend………
    THEN they shall see the SON of man and he will COME for his bride AND to execute wrath upon the ungodly.
    IF the rightteous scarcley be saved…………………..WHERE shall the ungodly appear.
    Tis the righteous judgment of GOD……………….that we sufer for the KINGDOM…………..
    REPENT and believe the gosple……………FOR i say
    we want to be FOUND of Him as we would want to be found……..
    NOT as we would NOT want to be found.
    FOR that day shall indeed overtake many as a theif in the night.
    FOr when they shall be saying PEACE andsafety………..
    THEN comes the WRATH OF GOD against them.
    THE end draws nigh. All of this………………was of new age
    religoin of years back…………..infiltrating churches with the purpose to get the collective seeds to evolve.
    BUT those who dont evolve………..AND THAT HAD BETTER BE US………………they do plan to come agaisnt and kill.
    NEW age is the serpent at the TREE………………….
    and they await………………the coming of what they say
    is theTRUE CHRIST……….of all RELIGOINS
    who will lead the world into peace and unity. ANTI CHRIST.
    new age says JESUS was NOT the CHRIST
    and if we read JOHN……………..we see the very definition of an anti christ…………..HE WHO SAYS JESUS IS NOT THE CHRIST.
    Satan is clouding the world……….and infecting all who love not the truth, and getting the world ready for the reign of a KING
    and kings………………….THE END IS NIGH. amen.

  80. Vicki Lynn Mar 1st 2013

    Here is man trying to grow things as natural (organic) as possible,,,while homosexuals are trying hard to have unnatural relationships,,,cursing themselves while doing it.

    Homosexuality and child molestation go together, one always leads to the other in the end.

    Some countries approve of Child Molestation.

    Will blind Australians without realizing it (Child Mol),,,,, be accepted as well in a few years, calling it a sweet approved name.

    While we Christians are jailed for speaking out against Child Molestation.

    THE LAW saying we are not to put our Christian convictions/rules on our own children or the public.

    SCARY STUFF coming.

  81. We had all better HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS……..
    WHO warned SUCH against SIN.
    that he said Better to cutt off hand, pluck out eye……..
    etc………….than at the end to die and be cast into HELL FIRE.
    NOW WHERE is THAT IN THE CHURCHES.
    WE all NEED to hear that , to remind us , to KEEP our bodies under subjection ,,,,,,,,,,,,,or we too be cast away.
    WE had better continue in HIS GOODNESS or too be cast away.
    BE NOT HIGHMINDED BUT FEAR.
    IT is a fearful Thing to FALL into the hand of the LIVING GOD.
    WHERE is that in these churches?
    SO dont a single ONE be made to feel guilty, like we hate
    or dont LOVE. Because WE CHOOSE to STAND UPON THE ROCK………….BUILD our HOUSE uppon the rock which is CHRIST.
    JESUS said HE who hears my WORDS and DOES THEM
    BUT HE who hears my words and DOES THEM NOT.
    ANd this was at the END of his sermon on the mount.
    GUESS what remarriage after knowing JESUS, is a like a foolish man bulding his house upon the sand.
    WHY……………….BECAUSE JESUS sAID he who does SO
    is an adulterer……..NOT only that but if one remarrys even her put away……..THAT ONE is an adulterer………
    THOSE are HIS WORDS……………and i grow weary of the lies
    of men who mock his words and change them to suit theri own lusts……………….But i am but man…………………
    WHAT will happen to those who have denied HIS TRUTH and YET call HIM LORD………..
    HE says…………..WHY DO YE CALL ME LORD
    and YET DO NOT WHAT I SAY.
    I will warn and warn till my last breath. LIVE by what JESUS said
    LIVE by what JESUS said. i will not shun to warn men……..
    the L:OVE OF CHRIST compels me warn………………
    warn, encourage……………..LIVE BY HIS WORD………..amen.

  82. Roger (NZ) Mar 1st 2013

    Currently in NZ we have a ‘same sex marriage’ bill being pushed through governement, even though petitions, submissions, suggest that the majority of NZers are opposed to this. http://www.protectmarriage.org.nz/

    We are now told that words like ‘husband, wife, bride, bridegroom’ are to be removed from paperwork relating to marriage – see this link: http://www.protectmarriage.org.nz/archives/bride-bridegroom-removed-from-marriage-certificates

    I understand that this same concept is being discussed/proposed in other countries..?

    So, very soon, this will be law in many countries around the world.

    Daniel 7 speaks of one (horn) who will arise and think to change laws and times – we understand this to be the ‘man of lawlessness’, ‘son of perdition’, referred to as the final antichrist, who will set himself up as God.

    Those, who profess to be born-again Christians, who accept ‘practising’ homosexuals into a church, with no intent to teach scriptural truth concerning this abomination to God – are not led by the Holy Spirit. Let us be clear about that. The Holy Spirit will always teach truth, and glorify Almighty God, pointing all to Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

    Yes – we love the people, no matter what the sin – share with them, encourage, support them, teach them the truth. Scripture declares that there will come a time when God gives them (who refuse to believe His truth) over to their desires – no matter what that lie or sin, may be.

    God will allow this apostasy for a time – and in that time, those who are truly born-again of the Holy Spirit, and believe in the truth of Almighty God – have a choice:

    Either – follow the leading of man, and all that implies, to no eternal fellowship with God..
    Or – follow the truth of Christ Jesus our risen Lord and God, and enjoy eternal fellowship with Him..

    There will be a time when the born-again children of God will no longer be able to follow certain ‘laws’ of man – because they are in direct conflict to the eternal laws of God..

    At that time, we who are His, will need to stand on His truth, and declare His truth to all – and be persecuted, even unto physical death.

    Be encouraged – scripture foretells all of these things – and we are told that they will greatly increase, shortly before Lord Jesus return as KING of kings, LORD of lords.

    These things are prophesied, they will happen – we are not to just accept, we are to continue to speak out against anything that is opposed to the truth which is Almighty God, (our Heavenly Father, His only begotten Son Christ Jesus our Lord, and the Holy Spirit).

    Be encouraged, His return is near, and He will give each one the words and strength to declare His truth to a sinsick, and dying, world.

    We are also told that God will create a new Heavens and new Earth, and He will dwell with His creation and have fellowship with those who love Him, for eternity.

    In His profound, and never ending love for as all,
    Roger

  83. Vicki Lynn Mar 1st 2013

    I should have called Child Molestation ……Pedophilia…

  84. AMEN ROGER…………………………AMEN………….
    THIS IS THE TIME FOR US to be encouraging each other as well.
    The lambs are flocking together……………it may be lil flocks
    BUT no worries JESUS is in the midst of all who LOVE truth.
    TO GOD be the GLORY………………TO GOD be the praise.
    TO GOD be all thanksgivings…………
    Blessed be OUR GOD, and blessed be HE who comes in the name of the LORD.
    SING peoples…………………SING………………….for were it not for GRACE we would be under the same delusions still
    thinkging we are saved. BUT GRACE abounds and teaches
    us daily to deny ALL ungodliness………………
    DIG in the holy scriptures, read the letters of the apostles…….
    FOR the TIME IS NOW that they NO longer endure sound doctrine,but are and have been creating a image of GOD
    which is not GOD, but of men.
    a one univeresal religion…………….that now is growing massive
    in the minds and hearts of many.
    BUT SOON will be enforced as the law of the land.
    ROGER is right…………………..changing times and laws………
    AWAKE people and put ye on the LORD
    the armour of his TRUTH……………………..redeem the time
    for the days be evil. ARISE lambs of the LORD
    and do all for the FURTHERANCE of the gosple.
    PRAISE THE LORD…………………………PRAISE the LORD
    and blessed be HIS NAME.
    OF whom much is forgiven……………..the same loves much.
    and i was the worst…………………….BUT THEN GRACE.
    amen. SING peoples, sing a song of praise unto OUR redeemer
    BEHOLD the coming of the LORD does draw nigh.
    SING…………………..and win souls amen.

  85. I see a potential parallel between the Charismatic Renewal of the 60′s and 70′s and the predicted revival that is coming. The charismatic revival brought multitudes out of the denominations to establish a wave of new churches. The sea of non-denominational churches on the christian landscape today did not exist back in the 60′s. They are the result of this movement and the visible fruit of people’s departure from the establishment churches of their day. What came to be called the Charismatic Renewal had been predicted for many years, even decades in advance by any number of christian voices the same way they are predicting a new revival today.

    The flood of people that came out of the “evangelical” churches were in response to God’s calling and was in line with that predicted move. I see in the next move of God an advance forward again in departing from the established churches of the charismatic legacy toward a new gathering of believers based on a revival of repentance and righteousness.

    Sadly, it can be witnessed that there are those, even after decades, who still insist on trying to prop up or preserve the evangelical main-line denominations, when the writing has been on the wall for some 40+ years that God has made His last call and now has written Ichabod over the denominations. He has departed from them and they are being given over to a compromise with sin and the world that breeds false leaders and false movements and false doctrines. There is no future there, the fight is over, time to move on, past time to move on.

    Let everyone be warned of the same mentality as we approach the new day. That the old wine and old way is not good enough. God is ever advancing and we must keep in step with Him or suffer loss. God’s way is always leading us in by way of leading us out first.

    Along this line of remaining behind is another influence that has become self-evident. The force of the homosexual agenda gaining access to the churches themselves. It would seem that if God can’t draw us out with the prospect of a new horizon for His church and His will then He will allow for those who won’t listen to be driven out by the lawless lifestyles of the godless who intend to infiltrate and conquer our congregations. In America the inevitable government sanction for homosexuality will no doubt play a part in the further acceptance of homosexuality in the nation at large and will bring great pressure to conform on many congregations. Legalities that will be used to intimidate the churches through revoking tax exempt status and enforcing hate speech laws are not far away as I see it.

    I believe I hear the Lord saying bitter-sweet, bitter-sweet. The future will be bitter-sweet. Sweet in His word, His truth, His light, His grace, His power, His glory, His church, His will, in knowledge, sweet in the reality and nearness of God. Bitter in the world, in persecution, in suffering, in rejection, in loss of prestige, in loss of freedom, in trial, in the reality of sin and darkness that dominates this world.

    The move of God in His people is on collision course with the zeitgeist, the spirit of this age and we are that people for this time who are called to this hour to be those who will stand and say “We will follow the Lamb wherever He goes”

  86. GaryB Mar 1st 2013

    I know this may sound far fetched but I have heard some are saying now that the Antichrist may be gay.

    Its because of this verse in Daniel, where it says he has no regard for the desire of women.

    Daniel 36:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that, that is determined shall be done.

    Daniel 11:37
    Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

    Don’t know if its true but it could be.

  87. GaryB Mar 1st 2013

    That’s Daniel 11:36-37, sorry for the typos

  88. jackrabbit Mar 1st 2013

    Perhaps it is time to ask the homosexuals why they think homosexuality being accepted by the Christian coven is sensible?

  89. GaryB
    There are three main understandings of Daniel, the anti-christ “futurist” one is not necessarily the correct one,.though widely accepted today..
    Many prophecies are “double barreled” and have a fulfillment on OT times, an application when Jesus walked the earth , an application in the age we live in, and perhaps a further application in an age to come. the anti- christ ones in particular may well fit this.
    Rev. tells us of satan being “bound” for a thousand years reign of Jesus and then loosed for a short time. this being his last throw of the dice.
    From your quote Daniel goes on:-
    “38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
    39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.”
    Note a “new” god one the fathers did not know.

    Now look below at how this particular religion adores, kneels before, and worships their “bread god ” I believe this is an anti-christ religion, it is under great stress today because of failure to deal with sexual problems caused by of numbers of its “celibate” and “gay” priests. This issue has prompted in Oz. a wide ranging Royal Commission into child sexual abuse.:It will retrospectively cover every organization that deals with children The Irish one took ten years to complete!
    .
    (http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/LettersPatent/Pages/default.aspx)

    here is the bread god link

    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

    Pr Michael

  90. Lightning Storm Mar 2nd 2013

    Jackrabbit…

    Perhaps it’s because homosexuals and the rest of the world have been convinced that homosexuality is an INBORN TRAIT…….THEREFORE THEY HAVE NO POWER TO OVERCOME these thoughts and desires.

    SPIRITUALLY AND SCRIPTURALLY, THIS IS TRUE!

    The church teaches that ALL are born with a SIN NATURE. (inborn traits of ALL SIN….INCLUSIVE)

    The scriptures state that NONE OF US HAVE THE POWER TO STOP SINNING OR DELIVER OURSELVES FROM SIN.

    The scriptures state that we MUST be born again and have the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT overcome our sin nature.

    BUT, the problem is: The people who go to church DON’T BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE THE SAME SIN NATURE IN THEM as the homosexual, the murderer, the Jezebel, the Muslims, the pedophiles, etc etc.

    Those who are still sinning, whether in church or out of church; whether a homosexual or a backbiter…….whether a liar or a heretic or UNFAITHFUL…….ALL ARE EQUALLY SINNING IN THE EYES OF GOD.

    So I guess, in my opinion, the homosexuals do NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEMSELVES AND THOSE BEHIND THE MASKS OF CHRISTIANITY.

  91. missbridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    Greatly said lightening storm! Catholics left the truth of God for lie, Pentecostals left truth for a lie, word of faith people left truth for a lie, prosperity people left truth for a lie, Mormons exchanged truth for a lie, JW exchanged truth for a lie, 7th day folks exchanged truth for a lie, charismatics exchanged truth for a lie, and now God has turned them all over to their lusts, which comes in many forms, one lust begets another, and another and the list goes on. One thing I can say is this, most gay people, trans people got to know Jesus as children, it was not until later they had doors slammed shut on them, many still knew the lord and most know for sure they need a savior, always have until recently maybe, what has changed now? Now many of them have entered the apostate churches mentioned above, AKA the organized religious institution, they have ALWAYS seen the hypocrisy from its very start, watched it for so many years on christian tv shows,and they see the church has no shame, so why should they. They along with this church have reprobate minds, they all are blind deaf and dumb as dogs. So called evangelicals always boast, we got this one saved, this many and this many, YOOO HOOOO!, Nobody leads people to Christ but the HS himself, he can do this without any preaching big mouth hypocrites, especially those who brag and boast about the POWER they have.I believe there are many truly saved Christians who can recognize something quite sinister behind anti gay people, sadly many who do know they need a savior and believe and always have since childhood. If we are to say gays don’t have the holy spirit because they don’t know their sinning, then this includes many in the above mentioned churches. I wonder how many of these are actually Godless since they now have been worshiping a Jesus made in their own image.or Jesus plus idols. Anyone like the lady mentioned above that says child molestation is equated with gay people is a fear promoter which will lead to killing many, beware of these sorts of so called Christians, anyone can see Catholics are godless and exchanged truth for a lie, There are more straights who are godless who molest more, and that is a fact.Why is it always the closeted straight and even religious in appearance who always end up on the news, The out of the closet healthy minded types just don’t foot the bill of child molesters. Look how many women teachers are doing it, so the woman who said gays equal child molester is a liar, fear promoter, tale bearer, back biter. She must obviously be quite ignorant as well, as look at the sex traffic industry, lady its been going on for many generations before the gay folks came out of the closet, its those who stay in it who are more prone to attack the innocent. People will someday succumb to the fear and many normal gays will be slaughtered. Who will rejoice over this? Christians.of course. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=491447330914025&set=a.348570991868327.78280.348506981874728&type=1&theater

  92. Roger (NZ) Mar 2nd 2013

    Paul taught that all had an inbuilt understanding of a Creator, however, there are those that choose to ignore God.
    Rom 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    God gives them over, no matter what their sin, to their desires to satisfy ‘self’..
    Rom 1:24-32 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    We have the Holy Spirit, who will convict the world, confirming the existence of Almighty God:
    Joh 16:7-15 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Yet, there will come a time when God Himself sends a delusion, that all who continue to believe lies and deception, are damned:
    2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

  93. missbridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    I know not all will. I would be more worried about anyone walking around with this new so called anointing and wanting to give it to ya no matter who you are because they are offering something really perverse high drunkenness and sexual feelings with the angelic realm this is the real danger the enemy was putting together while everyones focus is on social issues.

  94. missbridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    the whore of Babylon the harlot mother seems pretty clear this is roman catholic mother church All her seven daughters are quite visible today in the organized religious institutions we see today.I wonder which ones will they be killing those who reject the spirit transfer I believe.It would be interesting to find out if Hitler was involved with the kundalini counterfeit so many are calling holy these days.

  95. Andrew Mar 2nd 2013

    To those who say this will become a major “persecution point” of true Christians – yes, I agree. And sadly the church will be among those screaming “unloving”, ‘hateful’, etc. We are in dark days indeed.

    And yes – we need a “new move” where we call people out of these utterly apostate churches. For the sake of the TRUTH and the KINGDOM.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  96. Amanda Teunis Mar 2nd 2013

    I totally agree with Barry Schmit. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11. Acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin and then repentance is a big factor. The first thing Peter said on the day of Pentecost after the people were cut to the heart was to repent. Acts2:38. You can be cut to the heart by the message of Jesus, that’s great. Hallelujah! Then repent.

    I for one had to repent of sin, past and present, in my life when I first became a Christian and continue to do so. Sin is sin and no amount of emotion can excuse it. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. Thank you Jesus that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ v24. Humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up. James 4:10. Acknowledging sin and then truly repenting of it is a very humbling experience. The Lord has forgiven you, how uplifting!

    Let’s not confuse what is sin and what isn’t. It is all in the Bible, plainly written in the scriptures. Also The Holy Spirit has come to convict the world of sin. John 16:8. The sad fact maybe that the Bible isn’t being read with the Holy Spirits guidance. Another Gospel is excepted through deception because there isn’t a love of the TRUTH. 2Thess 2:10,11. 2Thess 3:14,15. If anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.

    Preach the Gospel to everyone. Mark16:15. Not allowing sin to be OK, people are fine how they are. Romans 6, Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it’s lust. Also present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. This is all done by submitting ourselves to the Holy Spirit to work in us. So much of what is in the Church is about what is happening on the outside. What happened to the change of the inner man? An ongoing process for me. Let’s not robe anyone including homosexuals of the right to be a changed person in Jesus.

  97. amen roger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THAT is SO CLEAR……………
    so easy to SEE.
    WE are in dark days ahead…………………..but the LIGHT of
    CHRIST shall get us through.
    ENDURE faithful till the end………………and the reward shall be great.
    THIS world is not about to kill gays…………
    ITs about to kill ANYONE not accepting the new religon of peace and unity. Those who wont conform to the new age reasons
    And that will be BIBLICAL Christains who wont
    accept new teachings………..BUT WILL only OBEY what JESUS said. amen. THOSE are the ones who are about to undergo the massive persecutions. THe world, churches, govts etc
    are all accepting of any lifestyle…………..
    and even accepting of christains………….
    JUST NOT BIBLICAL Christains………….
    and pardners…………………..the ONLY TRUE Christain
    is the biblical ones who wont conform.
    THIS is who is about to get persecuted by the world
    and lukewarm churches. we about to be betrayed
    as was Christ………………by those who once ate bread with us
    but came out from us……………………j
    To all who love the Lord in sincerity and truth ………….i say amen.
    To GOD be all glory. and warn any you can…………..
    amen.

  98. Lance Mar 2nd 2013

    As regards the above I am rather ‘concerned’ at the C3 response and your subsequent disclosure that in part, it could bluntly be referred to as ‘lying’.
    Enough is enough – what do the 3 C’s stand for? Is it Contentment, Compromise and Conditioning? (Galatians: Chap 1)
    We have the C3 ‘statement’:
    “We do not recognise the practice of homosexuality as biblically valid for a follower of Christ, nor do we promote it.”
    This in itself sounds so ‘Condescending’. As I understand the bible it is an “abomination”.
    Just read this as in ’1st person ‘format’ as though Christ was speaking. Do you think His response would be:
    “I do not recognise the practice of homosexuality as being in accordance with My word and valid for my followers, nor do I promote it” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    God’s Love is in His Grace and Mercy. As it is sometimes ‘explained’ – It is His Grace that gives us what we don’t deserve and His Mercy that does not give us what we do.
    Do we shun or turn sinners away? – of course not! – but it is His power through the Holy Spirit that will see sinners saved. And, yes, maybe, if we, in some small way can reflect Christ, He may use us as well to ‘guide’ people from their sin and lead them to repentance.
    Be very aware in these times and I repeat – pray for His wisdom, discernment, knowledge and understanding in all matters.

  99. Lightning Storm Mar 2nd 2013

    Roger…..

    Perhaps the Greek definition of the word you used so freely is in order.

    DAMNED means JUDGED in those scriptures.

    Aren’t we ALL JUDGED for our sins that are not repented of?

    Better keep a very clean slate from moment to moment….after all….this scripture applies to ALL:

    1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

  100. Andrew Mar 2nd 2013

    The basic issue:

    If it is not preached as “SIN”
    then how will people REPENT of it?

    BTW – I do believe many also need DELIVERANCE if they have been involved with this.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  101. I have a few things to say here and it may take some space, but please bear with me, as I believe they are fundamental to this whole topic (indeed all Christian living) and need to be clearly laid out in an orderly fashion.

    As someone else posted on this thread or the previous one; There are several lies that are commonly accepted by many Christians that need to be done away with when addressing this subject. That’s my paraphrase, but it is as accurately as I can remember what was written.

    I agreed absolutely with this comment, which is why I recall it so well. It mirrors my own thinking on what the Biblical position is on these matters.

    The first lie is; ‘There is no sin greater than any other.’

    Folks, this is NOT what the Bible teaches!

    The problem is that we all know that God is Holy and cannot, will not, tolerate any sin. This is why we can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus’ atoning work on the cross. Because of Jesus taking the just wrath of God the Father on Himself for the sins of the world (all sins, throughout the whole history of the world).
    If we repent and accept by faith His gift of salvation, then God sends the Holy Spirit to live within us and the Holy Spirit will begin to conform us to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29)

    At that point, we become a NEW CREATURE, according to 2 Cor.5:17 & Gal.6:15. But the Bible also tells us that we will still wrestle with sinful behaviour daily (Rom.7:15-25 & 1 John 1:7-10).
    How does this work? We are told that as we walk in the light (by faith in Christ’s atonement for our sins), we are accounted as righteous (sinless) by God, because we have exchanged our unrighteousness for Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor.5:21), (also see Rom. 4).

    What this means in practical terms, is that even though Christians will still stumble and wrestle with sin, if we obey the conviction of the Holy Spirit within us and confess our sins, we will be forgiven them on the basis of faith in Jesus’s death on our behalf.
    This is what John wrote his first epistle for, to encourage new believers not to lose hope when they sinned, but to confess the truth of what they had done and ask forgiveness.
    He also makes the point that if someone claims to have no sin, this is proof that the truth is not in them, which would mean that the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Spirit) is not in them, or in other words, they are not saved.

    This brings us to a problem, because we are none of us perfectly sinless in our daily lives, just as Paul acknowledged when he called himself the chief sinner (1 Tim.1:15). Also John says when WE sin, obviously including himself, so the Apostles all recognised this truth. The fact that Christians still sin is countered by the fact of their being born again, so that because of their relationship with Jesus, they can appeal for forgiveness and God will accept such an appeal and impute Jesus’ righteousness to them.

    Now here is where it gets tricky, because we could say; “Well if that is so, then I could do ANYTHING and God will forgive me.” But the Bible tells us that we are not to think this way. An illustration that I believe shows how this works in practice, is the following;

    Suppose a Christian arrives home to find his wife in bed with another man and under the understandable stress of such an incident, he loses control and beats the other man to a pulp. After he comes to his senses, in true remorse he seeks forgiveness for his lack of control. God is merciful and gracious and Jesus understands our passions according to Heb.2:18, so I believe his prayer will be granted, for this is a momentary failure to exercise restraint.

    But let’s change one detail and have the man quietly slip away without revealing his discovery of this act of betrayal. As he broods over his hurt, feelings of revenge begin to arise within his heart. At this point, the Holy Spirit will begin to warn him against allowing this desire to grow. If the man refuses to heed this warning and continues to churn over these vengeful thoughts, possibly even acting on them at a later date where his rage has increased to the point where murder is done, as rage that simmers will always intensify.

    As far as I understand scripture, at some point, the Holy Spirit will stop striving to be heeded. At this point, there will be no conviction of sin. If the man is determined to act on his desire for vengeance, in direct disobedience to the scriptures and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, then God will ‘give him over to a reprobate mind’ (as Romans 1 has it). Bearing in mind that the man is well aware of his rebellion, is there still room for repentance and forgiveness? Not according to Hebrews 10:26, which states:-

    “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

    The only difference between these two scenarios is that the first is an instinctive reaction to great mental distress, while the second is a coldly premeditative determination to do evil. The result in both cases is identical; injury to the other man involved, but the effect on the husband is very different.

    The actual sin is the same in one sense, but vastly different in another. The difference is in the word ‘wilful’.

    To get back to greater or lesser sins, Jesus said that there were at least three levels of severity of sin in Matt.5:22, each deserving of a different level punishment. In John 19:11 He said that the one who delivered Him to Pilate had the GREATER sin. This shows beyond any argument that there ARE some sins that are greater than others, even though any sin will be a barrier between men and God.

    Building on this base understanding of the varying degrees of sin, if we look at the following sins, we can see that they have one thing in common (apart from the fact that they are all sexual sins) and that is that they are un-natural forms of sexuality. They are:-
    Homosexuality,
    Pedophilia,
    Bestiality,
    Necrophilia,
    Sado-masochism,
    and whatever name is given to the practice of murdering a sexual partner in the act.

    These are NOT the same as adultery, because adultery is still within the bounds of how we are designed and how sex was intended to work by God. The fact that it is still a great sin is not disputed, but it is far short of the kinds of abhorrent sexual deviancy listed above.

    The fact that these acts are beyond the boundaries of what is a natural function is unarguable and this puts them on a whole different level, in the same way that the three different abuses listed by Jesus in Matthew 5 are on different levels. The degree of difference is obvious.

    Given this, it is not Biblically valid to say that since we all sin, that we are being hypocritical to ‘single out’ homosexuality above all the other sins.

    Also, with as much love and compassion as I can, I have to say that a person who claims to be saved (a new creature), but still has what the Bible clearly says are UN-NATURAL desires, that are against the way God designed humans to function, is in a very unscriptural position.

    Consider the case of someone who has been guilty of some of the other un-natural behaviours listed above, who responds to the Gospel and repents, asking for salvation. Is it reasonable to suppose that God, in answering this prayer would leave these dreadful desires within such a person? I am assured by the scripture that nothing is too hard for the Lord, so I will take it that God is able to save such as person as a pedophile and make of them a new creature, but I find it impossible to accept that He would then leave their deviant desires within them for them to wrestle with for the rest of their lives.

    Drug addicts who have been truly saved are free from the desire for drugs from that moment on, as witness my younger daughter, who went through that experience and now is completely delivered and a new person entirely from her former self. Old friends from that scene notice the difference in her within minutes of meeting up again sveral years down the track and she has had many chances to share the Gospel because they want to know what has caused this change in her. Some have been saved as a result. She has absolutely no desire whatsoever to do drugs ever again and it’s not an effort for her, as she says; “God has made me a new creature and given me new desires.”

    All this is well and good, but then we have to address the issue of whether or not to accept homosexuals in a gathering of the Church. As has been stated elsewhere by a few, the Bible doesn’t speak of a church that has some saved people and some unsaved people, it just speaks of the Church as being all those who are saved. The Church is the people, not the building, not even the gathering. Biblically, the word ‘Church’ means only and always, those people who have been born again and are in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit. To speak of accepting homosexuals into the Church is an impossibility in Biblical terms, as they are not part of the Body of Christ, the Church.

    As to whether we should invite them into our gatherings, the Bible also doesn’t speak of such gatherings together as times when we should be preaching the Gospel to the lost, but as times of fellowship with the Lord and other members of the Body. There is no record anywhere in the New Testament of a gathering of church members for the purpose of evangelism. That is supposed to be carried out BY the Body of Christ in their everyday lives, as a result of their walk with the Lord, which is made stronger by the fellowship with other believers at the gatherings. This is the whole reason for such gatherings, according to scripture.

    Preaching to the lost is never listed as one of the functions of meetings of the Body of Christ in the NT. That is the job of every Christian in their day to day lives, at work, school, play, etc. Meetings are for building Christians up in their spiritual walk so that they can grow more like Christ, which should result in them reaching out to the lost like He did. If and when homosexuals (or any other unsaved persons) accept the witness of Christians in word and deed and come to faith as a result, THEN they can be brought into the gatherings in a way that will actually benefit all and God is glorified by all.

    The idea that gathering of the Church together should entail evangelism is not the model given us in the NT for how to conduct ourselves during meetings. Paul is the only writer who even raises the subject and he says IF unbelievers are present, not WHEN. Elsewhere he states very forcefully that we cannot have fellowship with unbelievers of any kind, so the idea is not treated as the norm by the scriptures.

    Sorry for the length of the post, but there is much confusion about these issues and really the Bible is pretty straightforward about what should and shouldn’t happen.

  102. GaryB Mar 2nd 2013

    I just heard the President of the United States say, he is in support of gay marriages and hopes the supreme court will deal with this issue of unfair treatment concerning a situation in California.

    The news commentator said if this bill is overturned in California in may affect 31 other states who have a similar bill that denies men from marrying each other.

    The logic is these people pay taxes and should not be discriminated because of their choices.

    If you think about it, true Christians and what the Bible says is the only thing standing in the way of preventing this event from taking place.

    I heard that once gay marriages are allowed what is keeping them from coming to any church establishment and saying we want to get married in this church. If the church refuses this is discrimination or racist.

    Bring the abomination into Gods house and flaunt it before the world, this is what they want.

    I agree with Andrew dark days are ahead.

    Persecution will reveal who is following Christ and His Words and who is following the new age gospel.

  103. Alan, may we see those Corinthian verses in context?
    “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: (obviously that happened in Paul’s day as it should also in ours) – And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth”.
    The unbeliever is then at the point where he/she can repent be baptized – in water and the Holy Spirit.

    All things in the meeting must be decent and in order! This happens.
    Else what do we do with our (as yet) unsaved children? keep them out of all church meetings?

    Pr Michael

  104. Allan and All it is God who adds to the church. I can not accept anyone “into” the church ,i can invite them to our meetings however that does not mean they are in “fellowship” Just because they sit in the meeting does not mean we have accepted them nor does that make them part of the “body”
    No person can become part of the fellowship i attend until they as Cornelius experience the Holy Spirit baptism then “Who am i that i can withstand God”
    If speak to a person with ANY problem, and they show interest (out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks) Then i would not hesitate to invite them to sit in a meeting and observe. Then as most all indeed do, they would either run away or thirst after what they have witnessed there.
    As one once said to me after his conversion “I thought this either had to be true, or the biggest con job I had ever heard – but after my first meeting i knew it was true”
    The Law is a school master to identify sin (not doing what God said) We then introduce repentance, baptism and holy Ghost regeneration, this is BASIC stuff not rocket science, a young child can comprehend it, the first disciples were fisherman. while the lawyers and learned stumbled, because it was so simple.
    Pr Michael

  105. miss bridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    I used to like the pentecostal church, but I was lead out quick, fast and in a hurry, They joke about their weirdness, and even boast about it. Truth is it has Always been weird from the very start of it. This should of been a wake up call and a warning to the church a century ago. I believe too in deliverance but believe it comes from true repentance and simple prayer in Jesus name, as I prayed for my dad just driving down the road, he was a life long drunk and mentally ill with hearing voices for so many years. When I prayed for him going down the highway two dark demons flew at me and disappeared. Simple faith and prayer. NONE of the pentecostal rituals needed as seen in church, as Ive seen enough of those and its a playhouse for demons. I still believe their 2nd work, and manifestation as proof is a lie from hell, rather the hs refines with continued walk and not some occult practice, experience and manifestations. They opened the door wide open to the enemy, and they also incorporate works with grace, something just is not right with them and its visible to the whole world today. Look how deliverance ministry is today a money making circus of demons.going in and out and bringing their friends back. I suggest leaving it all alone, as the lord bore them stripes, repentance does it all and prayer. God can forgive and deliver easy. The lords prayer covers it all. Deliver us from evil. period.

  106. miss bridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    Ive seen them rise up and flee in my own house with simple prayer and the shadows just rose up, some looking like little trolls, some without shape, some looking like little animal creatures. Anyone can do that with plain ole prayer. The catholics and pentecostals have ritualized everything. and the demons play games with these.

  107. miss bridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    BTW, my dad after all these years appears to be doing great now.

  108. miss bridgewater Mar 2nd 2013

    I care for the sick and elderly, I had the pentecostal laying of hands done with one of my clients twice and afterwards he ended up in the hospital close to death. I then had a baptist church just put him on their prayer list some distance away, and I too asked for healing via simple prayer and he is doing fine, something is wrong with the pentecostal rituals with a bunch of people laying hands, touching, etc. This is prayer soaking, and very witchy even in appearance, add a bunch of unknown tongues babbling and it pretty well confirms what I have always believed from the onset.

  109. watchful Mar 2nd 2013

    “Look how deliverance ministry is today a money making circus of demons.going in and out and bringing their friends back. I suggest leaving it all alone, as the lord bore them stripes, repentance does it all and prayer. God can forgive and deliver easy. The Lords prayer covers it all. Deliver us from evil. period.”

    “The catholics and pentecostals have ritualized everything. and the demons play games with these.”

    AMEN miss bridgewater! I’m blessed by these insights! The simplicity of Christ….and I’m glad your Dad is doing well.

  110. watchful Mar 2nd 2013

    There is iniquity/sin of all kinds coming to maturation and bearing it’s fruit in these last days, as miss bridgewater pointed out we are seeing witchcraft and other things abounding as well………..and I remember that Lot was delivered because he was troubled in his righteous soul by the sin he saw around him, and the people in Jerusalem in Ezekiel 9 were marked on their foreheads for deliverance from judgment and allowed to “live” because they were grieved and lamented the sin of their day. I’m looking closely at Ez. 9 this morning……..the message I am getting is that this is an ensample for these days, and if we are not troubled and grieved by sin then something is wrong.

  111. Lightning Storm Mar 2nd 2013

    So we just throw out the verses of scripture that clearly STATE that a born again follower of Jesus Christ should not be sinning??

    Perhaps you have been taught that sins are GRADUATED, but the scriptures do NOT say that. EVERY AND ANY SIN IS WORTHY OF DEATH….just look at Adam and Eve!

    The word SIN in scripture, in the Greek, most often refers to one’s THOUGHTS, WORDS, AND DEEDS.

    The word INIQUITY in scripture, in the Greek, most often refers to one’s SIN NATURE/ADAMIC NATURE.

    At the time the Hebrew and Greek were translated to English for the original King James version, there were 50,000 English words. There were over 300,000 Hebrew words and there were over 100,000 Greek words.

    Do you see a problem with translation? Many English words were REPEATED for DIFFERENT Hebrew and Greek words!!!

    A person who is UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT SIN IN THOUGHT, WORD, OR DEED.

    But, that same person’s SIN NATURE/INIQUITY should be getting purified/sanctified AT THE SAME TIME!

  112. Robert Robinson Mar 2nd 2013

    ALL YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL FOR REJECTING GAY PEOPLE

  113. Richard Savage Mar 2nd 2013

    Robert Robinson, earnestly seek Jesus while there’s time.

    Time’s running out for us all. Now would be good for you.

  114. Anna M. Mar 2nd 2013

    @ Robert Robinson – ALL YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL FOR REJECTING GAY PEOPLE
    That’s a pretty broad swipe with an extremely judgmental brush! God tells us one thing and you tell us another, now who should we believe and follow? God has commanded us to judge the spirit of this world, the spirit which deceives humans. We judge according to His Word. I don’t know where you would find that (YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL FOR REJECTING GAY PEOPLE) confirmed in Scripture. If you can’t find it there, then we need not concern ourselves, because it is simply personal opinion; insignificant in eternity. Most the people who have posted here are more concerned with God’s opinion than man’s. I know a few ‘gay’ though deeply sad (and certainly “not happy/gay:D”) people as friends. How did it ever get termed gay when it makes people so unhappy? I love them enough to speak the truth in love. I accept these people while ‘completely’ rejecting their homosexual preferences. I may love my own child while hating the sin which I see destroy them. Jesus loved sinful man while hating his sin. We were all separated from God by our sins. None comes unto Him without his drawing unto himself. ALTHOUGH, he would never tell any of us that he condones our sin! More like.. ‘ you have now seen Me, now go and sin no more! ‘ We were all equally lost! ALL OF US EQUALLY LOST! The gays need Christ no more, and no less than everyone else who is without Him. The punishment for my sin was never less than any other persons. He allows us to see our filthiness and moral bankruptcy before Him. He gives Salvation in repentance to us all. The question isn’t whether he loves sinners, it is HOW he can love us!

  115. Lightning Storm Mar 2nd 2013

    Ha ha ha ha Robert Robinson…….I like your “hutzpa”!

    To those who have been saying “You’re going to hell” to all the sinners you know:

    “How does it feel to be told the same thing that religious people have been telling the sinners of the world for centuries?”

    To those who are born again:

    Was it those words, “You’re going to hell”, that ENDEARED you to the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?

    Or how about the words “You’re a HARLOT
    You need Jesus”?

    Is THIS the way that you LEAD YOUR OWN SMALL CHILDREN TO TRUST THE FATHER AND JESUS?

    According to scripture, you’re own small children have the SAME sin nature as a homosexual, a pedophile, a murderer, a harlot, etc etc etc.

  116. Marilyn Crow Mar 2nd 2013

    I think we need to realise that when a Religious Organisation puts on a public meeting, that it is public, enabling any to come through the doors.

    And the world`s political system which is the overseerer of such public meetings, sets the agenda, more & more.

    Private house or other places where the body of Christ gathers, is just that – private.

    Marilyn.

  117. watchful Mar 2nd 2013

    I don’t see most people here with the bad attitude that is being ascribed to them by some………consider that one reason why so many don’t get ‘properly’ saved these days might have to do with the lack of realizing their need for repentance – there is a need for the Holy Spirit to plough as well as sow and reap. We have all read of what happens to seed sown on unploughed places.

    Concerning sin….what I understand is that we have taken a bath so our whole body is clean, however, we still need to have our feet washed and Jesus does that as we walk with Him. If we sin against our body our whole body is unclean……………..but dirty feet we all have and will let Jesus wash if we are part of Him, He is so merciful.

  118. Therefore brethren, we are debtors, NOT to the FLESH
    , to live after the FLESH
    for if you live after the FLESH you shall DIE
    abut if YOU through the SPIRIT do MORTIFY
    the deeds of the body you shall LIVE
    VERY SIMPLE . VERY EASY TO BE UNDERSTOOD.
    FOR If we build again those things which once
    we destroyed………………we MAKE ourselves TRANSGRESSORS.
    Yes……………….we have A HOLY WALK TO DO
    not UNHOLY nor living after the flesh.
    VERY easy to understand
    its a choice and its daily
    CHOOSE to OBEY the spirit and LIVE unto righteousness
    OR choose to obey the deeds of the evil flesh
    and become transgressors and fall away.
    CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve.
    HOW LONG will you remain HALT between two opinions.
    CHOOSE YE GOD or CHOOSE YE BAEL.
    That was once told in days of old. THE CHURCH
    cant reamin in both places.
    ITS HOLY and clean……………..or unholy and fallen away.
    ONLY GOOD SOUND DOCTRINE must be told.
    and as watchful said………….
    the reason so many are not saved………………..is because
    they dont think they need to repent of evil.
    I mean is gay is a lifestyle and not evil…………..WHY WOULD THEY? THe devil aint slowing down…………….HE is a liar
    and the Father of it……………..and is taking many captive
    at his will. THE ONLY WAY to resist the dark one
    is by OUR FAITH. amen.

  119. I have been taking all this in…

    As well as the other thread…

    These are pivotal points in history that we are witnessing…

    Ezekiel 9 which watchful shared with us is very fitting, very appropriate…

    There’s another scripture which comes to mind,

    Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD’S anger. (Zephaniah 2:3 NASB)

    Love in the Lord,

    Andrew

  120. fabakary Mar 3rd 2013

    I maybe wrong but I think there is so much emphasis on those external which are not a problem
    Of the majority that visits this site. For example, when there is a question on why Christendom is the way it is, the problem is sift in a major case to organize Christianity. Seeing the majority that visits this site as I believe are not part of organize religion, how will that challenge their personal walk with the Lord, since they are no longer part of it? If you did not see yourself in one way or another as part of the problem and think it is all because of others, it can lead to lukewarmness, self security, spiritual lazyness, self righteousness etc.
    And let not overemphasis the problems with little emphasis on the solution , which is Christ.
    But that are just my taught but after all Andrew may just be posting what the Lord laid in his heart , of which is his to obey his lord.

  121. I believe every single Christian who has put his all in his/her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ should not hesitate at this juncture in history. Christ Jesus is the only Savior in this world we live in. When the obomination of this world steps in to change the world to his liking, Sin, Every single Christian ‘knows’ where its coming from and WHy it is happening. God has already told us. In a quiet, determined Spirit from on high, we, His Church, must bide by our Instruction Book. Simply Obey God and ignore the rebel rousers, the bold “defining” attack on Christians.

    This outright attack would be funny IF it were not so sinister. It’s like little children refusing to obey their Father because the child wants it to be different. Any sane person is playing with fire who insists reasoning with spoiled, illogical, haters of God, and determined to have their way. Yes, vile destruction is ahead. By ignoring them will only stoke the fires of hell stronger. God is supreme, we must walk in unity and ignore their heinous persuits of toppling God’s Believers. You don’t have a choice. None of us have any rights, especially Sinners. It shows that the ultimate in Selfishness is determined to rule. God is love. God is Justice. You cannot have one without the other. It is time to choose. I don’t know who you will follow, but as for me, I will serve the Lord….without hate or mallace for any sinful group.

  122. Sandra G. Mar 3rd 2013

    Jesus is the door to salvation, but one day He will shut that door, and once He shuts it, no man can open it. Homosexuality is a sin, and an abomination to God. They have been given over to a reprobate mind. Does this mean we hate them? NO, it means we pray for them, we tell them of their sin, we pull them out of the fire, lest their blood be on our heads. How many times do we warn? as many times as needed, none of us are sin free, we all fall short of the Glory of God, and we will all be judged accordingly. The following video is about the “door to salvation being shut”, “the ten virgins”, the bridegroom came and shut the door while the 5 foolish went out to buy oil. This door will be shut, there will come a time when no matter how much we warn they will not hear the warnings. In that day they will desire the light, but will not be able to receive it, because it will be to late, the door will be shut. When will this happen? Only Jesus knows this, but I believe it will be soon. Stay on watch, and warn while there is still time, but don’t be surprised when the Holy Spirit says to stop.

    http://youtu.be/osd0fFujej4

    In HIS love, & grace
    Sandra G.

  123. CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE SHALL SERVE.
    Be ye Holy for HE is HOLY.
    I love you all and i pray for us all.
    Walk in Christ………………………HE is not the ministir of sin.
    thus crucify the deeds of the evil flesh.
    Do we make void the law…………..GOD forbid
    YEAH we establish the law.
    UPON our hearts. These days be of extreme evils in all sins.
    And our choice is to walk as did Christ.
    IF GOD said NOT to do something DONT and warn others not too. Learn the sermon on the mount.
    And Be blessed. LOTT was vexed with the evils all around.
    And it appears now a days…………………its much like those days and getting worse. JESUS said BEHOLD the coming of the Son of man shall be in the days of LOTT and NOAH.
    and this world grows ever evil………………..and many
    now call good evil and evil good. Set all affections above on HIM. and resist the dark one by our faith. amen.

  124. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuQ3MiSlz8&feature=player_embedded

    MANY now DO…………..
    and try and make those who wont sell the truth
    feel guilty.
    Can they appear righteous and loving…………
    YES.
    PAUL warned of these. and now they are massive in many
    churches and places. Be warned and be on gaurd.
    WHEN the elites see the collective whole of seeds conforming
    to the world…………..they will rejoice
    They have long awaited this. But a day is coming
    and the hour is nigh…………………..that
    those who did not evolve, who did not conform
    who are called the defective seeds………….
    THEY WILL COME FOR…………….

  125. FOR there is NOTHING new UNDER THE SUN

  126. Marilyn Crow Mar 3rd 2013

    I agree Fabakary that we must emphasise the truth which is Christ. We need to feed on, talk & share of Him. Very true.

    Just a point in regards to the religious organisations & pointing to them. Yes it can lead to self righteousness etc as you said, however the Lord pointed out the Pharisaical system of His day & who was behind it, then He went on to relate & talk to the everyday person telling them of the Father & other great truths.

    This I believe, as you do that we need more & more to `feed on,` who our Lord is, what He has done, what He is doing & will do. Plenty to keep us uplifted, encouraged & challenged to walk close to HIm.

  127. Lightning Storm Mar 3rd 2013

    Sandra …where in scripture does it say that Jesus will “close the door”? Where does it say you only have so much time to believe Him and Follow Him?
    Where does it say that Jesus turns His back on people?
    Jesus didn’t turn His back on anyone in the Gospels.
    Jesus didn’t tell them they had to pray the “sinner’s prayer” before He met their needs either.

    Jesus lays out HIS PATTERN/ process of DISCIPLING ALL PEOPLE.

    I don’t see this pattern being followed, yet people claim to be following Jesus!

    What I hear is “throw the bums out if they don’t act and look like the rest of us”

    What I hear is” the church building is SACRED and there should be NO ABOMINATIONS within it”

    What I hear is ” the church building is the ONLY place we are safe; where the Presence of God is; where our families gather”.

    This is a sanctimonious tradition of man. The NT believers were JEWS, until Peter. ALL the churches in the NT were filled with JEWS before Peter’s calling to the gentiles.

    God NEVER told the Israelites to gather in a synagogue
    once a week. That was the Jewish Pharisee’s made up rules.
    The Israelites were told to meet with Him in the “Tent of Meeting” DAILY! This means “come into HIS PRESENCE daily”. They refused because of FEAR of having to give up their idols, so God appointed Priests to intercede for them.

    Also, the people were to gather together as a whole on the FEAST DAYS THAT WERE DESIGNATED BY GOD (NOT the religious leaders).
    They were also told to gather together when GOD CALLED THEM.

    So where does it say to hide out in your church buildings away from the world??

    The established pattern of worshiping God, gathering together weekly in a building, etc etc was set up by mankind, not God. You are correct that unrepentant sinners should not enter into worship with believers, BUT what we call worship in the church institutions is NOT CALLED WORSHIP BY GOD.

    Plus, how do you as a congregation KNOW if the people sitting on the same pew with you have REPENTED OF THE SINS THEY COMMITTED THAT WEEK? OR THAT MONTH? OR THAT YEAR?

    I hear people admit that they have not, nor are they willing to, forgive people from their past….so let us cast them out of the “synagogue” with the homosexuals.

    Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Take a look at the ORDER in which these things are written:

    1- I and you must be first and foremost, FILLED, EMPOWERED, EQUIPPED, ENERGIZED, AND ENABLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    2-ANOINTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

    3-TO PREACH THE “gospel” to the “poor”.
    The word “gospel” means GOOD NEWS; GLAD TIDINGS; JOYFUL TIDINGS OF GOD’S KINDNESS and GOODNESS; THE MESSIANIC BLESSINGS AVAILABLE.

    The word “poor” means SPIRITUALLY DESTITUTE; BEGGARLY.

    4-HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED (everyone has wounds of the heart because of sin committed by others against them and sins they committed against themselves)

    5-PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES
    Be ready to cast out demons, familiar spirits, the devil himself if necessary. cast out principalities, powers of darkness, rulers of wickedness….destroying the works of the devil.

    6-Recovering the sight of the blind.
    Praying in the Spirit for eyes and ears and hearts to be opened and filled with Godly sorrow and repentance. Washing them in the Presence of the Glory and Power of the Holy Spirit.

    7-Set at Liberty them that are bruised.
    Holy Spirit anointed Teaching of the PROCESS that God works within us, conforming us and transfiguring us to the IMAGE OF JESUS.

  128. Lightning Storm Mar 3rd 2013

    Pay close attention to the ORDER in which Jesus related the PATTERN of how He Disciples people to His Kingdom in Luke 4:18.

    Now compare it to what you have been told by mankind.

    Now compare it to your OWN WAY of discipling people to Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

  129. Lightning………………..it does say such a thing.
    THEN shall they knock upon the door
    from without………………but i shall say depart from me.
    HOWEVER i believe this to be at the END.
    There is coming a time when it is TOO late………………
    WHEN once the master of the HOUSE has risen up…………..
    SINCE no man knows that day and hour
    THE message is PLAIN……………….WIN SOULS NOW
    stop waiting for another day………………
    WIN SOUS NOW.
    WIN SOULS NOW
    Many of us have been cuaght up with a teaching of end time revival………………..so long as we sit and wait believing
    many will suddenly be saved ……………
    THE SOULS of TODAY are not be witnessed too about JESUS.
    TO all my friends………………..the time to win the LOST
    IS NOT tomorrow , for one could die tonight
    it aint yesterday, cause that is gone……………ITS NOW.
    ARISE LAMBS…………………………ARISE
    and get the GOSPLE OUTNOW.
    WE shall be persecuted , but so be it ……………TO GOD BE ALL GLORY. ARISE lambs………………………ARISE………………….and win souls NOW……………………………

  130. TO all DONT GO SENSUAL LOVE …………….
    me, nor sandra, nor roger, nor others
    are saying any such thing about the lost or sinner.
    WE all love them. DONT let the flesh make you feel guilty.
    BUT a lil leaven DOES cause the lump to rise.
    NO selling out………………….we can win none
    if we warn none who is in sin.
    SIN is death. its wages are death.
    GET the mindset not of the world, nor this life.
    NOTHING in this life matters………….comforts cares, pleasures etc………….WHAT MATTERS is who recieves
    the CROWN at the end. who gets to enter the KINGDOM at the end
    who falls not short…………………who fails NOT of the grace of GOD.
    what will matter is WHERE we SPEND ETERNITY.
    NO selling out. I love all peple. SO WARN every to REPENT.
    or there will Be no life at the end………..only a LAKE OF FIRE.
    too many thinkers…………NOT ENOUGH of what JESUS said
    and the apostels. STOP THINKING
    and get busy READING WHAT THEY WROTE.
    stop listening to men of this age
    and start listening to what the apostels said.
    GOOD PURE WORDS OF TRUTH……………..
    the ship is sinking………………CLING TO JESUS and read
    SOUND DOCTRINE………………the END is nigh. amen.

  131. Roger (NZ) Mar 3rd 2013

    Lightning Storm – if your understanding is that the ‘church’ is the Body of Christ Jesus, and not a denominational building – then you will know this is an worldwide organic fellowship of disciples of Christ Jesus.

    It would seem that the original meetings of believers, was just that, a meeting of born-again Christians, to share food, pray, praise and worship the living God, and that He would be there with them.

    These meetings were separate from other gatherings where both believer and non-believer were present, where the Gospel of Christ was shared, and some or many were converted. Those who were converted, would then be invited, welcomed, encouraged, supported – into the meetings of believers and followers of Lord Jesus.

    The modern church (religious system) has changed that into one where both believer and non-believer are present at the prayer, praise and worship – changed it so much that today we have false doctrine, and error accepted, in an attempt to reach out to non-believers, in a ‘gospel of love and unity’, which is of man.

    So the preaching of the non-acceptance of sin has had to be watered down, made politically correct, so as not to cause offense as understood by fallen man.

    Man has opened the doors wide, so that the end result is church groups which are apostate, accepting wordly values, rather than the dividing line of truth from Almighty God. This is ‘sword of the Spirit’ reality – division between truth and deception.

    There will be a time when God ‘gives them over’ to their belief of lies, and unrighteousness, those who continue on in wilful sin – that is when the door is closed.

    Yes, we love the person who is a sinner, and we love them with the love which is Christ Jesus – no other love is righteous – and when we love with His love, we teach, share, encourage with His truth, not man’s compromise – which is tainted with the adversary’s seductive lies and deceit.

  132. Roger, thankyou for your post above. I believe that the definition of ‘Church’ according to the scriptures as opposed to what we call ‘church’ nowadays is one of the most important keys to knowing how to proceed on this issue of inclusion v. exclusion.

    Pr Michael,
    While I agree with you on much, your question about whether we should include our (as yet) unsaved children puzzles me, as we are instructed by the scriptures to raise our children up in the ways of the Lord. They are quite different in moral responsibility from adults and the question of whether or not to exclude or include them in fellowship is not at all on the same level as the issue we are discussing, as they are not likely to be guilty of sexual sins and certainly not of the type we are discussing.
    As a few of us have pointed out, there ARE varying degrees of sins, as evidenced by scripture. This has been objected to by ‘Lightning Storm’, but the scriptural evidence is undeniable:-

    Under the Law of Moses, some sins required the death penalty, while others could be dealt with through a sacrificial offering, which also differed according to the severity of the trespass, while Jesus Himself makes distinctions between different degrees of sin (Mat.5:22 & John 19:11)

    Our children are covered by their parent’s faith until such time as they are capable of true repentance, unless we want to accept the idea that unborn or newborn babes that die go to Hell (something for another thread), an idea that I oppose and can do so with scripture.

    ‘Lightning Storm’ also said that ‘a person under the authority of the Holy Spirit in thought, word, or deed.’
    Well then, why does John say in 1st John 1:8;
    “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
    Note that he says ‘WE’, so he is including himself here. Surely you’re not suggesting that he wasn’t under the authority of the Holy Spirit?

    Likewise Paul, who said of himself in 1st Tim.1:15;
    “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

    Was Paul also not under the authority of the Holy Spirit?

    LIghtning Storm, you have also written that at the time of the KJV’s writing, that there were 50,000 words in the English vocabulary, which is simply not true according to the information given at several scholarly sites that deal with the subject, contrary to the more easily found ‘information sites, such as ‘Answers’, which puts it at around 60,000. I will post here two links, that put the true figure at nearly 300,000 words, many of which are no longer used today, even though our current vocabulary is over two and a quarter times as big as it was in Shakespeare’s day.

    As far as the vocabularies of Hebrew or Greek, there are many words, in each language, that can have different meanings, dependant on context, so please be very careful making up doctrinal positions based on your own information about meanings of words in scripture. I have learned to be wary of even using concordances, as they often contain the biases of those who wrote them within their definitions. (For instance, Strong was a universalist, bizarre as that seems, who was influenced in his beliefs by Philip Schaff, who was a Freemason, among other things)

    Also, please do some better research about such things as Bible translation and vocabularies before posting your ‘findings’ and the conclusions you arrive at as a result on such as thread as this one, especially if you are going to use such (erroneous) conclusions to berate others here with whom you disagree.

    Here are the two links that will provide you with a better indication of English vocabularies throughout history. The first, is a Q&A site called Quora and the first answer (which gives you a link to the second site), gives you a far more authoritative answer than the ‘Answers’ site:-

    http://www.quora.com/Lexicography/How-much-bigger-is-todays-lexicon-of-the-English-language-than-in-the-time-of-Shakespeare

    http://www.academia.edu/1666724/The_Word-Hoard_of_English_and_the_Historical_Thesaurus

    You are also mistaken in your contention that Jesus never shuts the door on anyone, as others here have pointed out. The Bible clearly says that there will come a time for everyone, whether individually, or (at the Second Coming) corporately, when there will be no more opportunity for repentance and judgement will be set. (E.G: Luke 13:25)
    To argue otherwise, is to agree with Rob Bell’s assertion that eventually everyone will be saved, even those who die in their sins.

    As for your contention that our children may grow up to sin in one of the ways you list and therefore we should adjust our thinking, as I said above, we are charged with instructing our children in the ways of the Lord and as long as they are children under our tutelage and not acting out those sins you mention, they are entitled to be included. However, if they grow to do these things, then we are required to exclude them by scripture, from our times of fellowship.

  133. I would encourage each of you to go onto iTunes and listen to some of the other sermons I have preached over the years. You’ll find out that I am orthodox in my understanding and teaching of God’s Word. I also get along side people who are neglecting their salvation – or living in unconfessed sin – and point them in the right direction. I’ve found, however, that people can heed advice more effectively when they know you love them and have their best interests at heart.

    Love one another. Love your neighbour as yourself. Do to others as you would have them do to you. These are the commands that Jesus gave us. Truth must always be spoken in love otherwise it becomes harsh and unpalatable, just like this blog and some of the comments above. The Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is a wonderful filter for blogs and blog comments. I.e. they should be kind, loving, gentle etc. Against these things there is no Law. God bless you all. Rob

  134. Sandra G. Mar 4th 2013

    Roger, Randall, thank you for your support. I love you guys.

    Lightning Storm, Have you ever read Matthew 25, the parable of the ten virgins? This is a type and shadow of things to come. One day Jesus will say, “away from me you who work iniquity, I never knew you”. What I spoke of comes straight from the Word of God, and I only speak as I am led by the Holy Spirit, I do not add, nor take away from HIS word. nor am I pew sitter, nor do I judge anyone who goes to church, but just because you go to a building doesn’t mean you will be saved. I was called out of the apostasy of religion, and put into the Word of God, that was 6 years ago, and I’m still there. I don’t hate anyone, I love all people regardless of their choices, I am not the judge, I am a humble servant of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I will do HIS will, if I offend I’m sorry, but I wont apologize for doing what the Holy Spirit has led me to do. They laughed at Noah too, and if that is my course then so be it. I know you not, but I love you, just remember this, Jesus came the first time to save, the next time He comes it will be with the sword, to take vengeance on all who refused to believe, and chose to serve the world, and it’s idols, and lies. There is only one truth, and that is Jesus Christ, the only way to be saved, the only way to the Father, He is the only hope we have, and His will, will be done.

    May the Lord bless you, know you are loved,
    In His love, and grace
    Sandra G.

  135. miss bridgewater Mar 4th 2013

    Well, anyone with discernment or is guided by the HS knows we are at the end, funny even those we might deem unbelievers know it too, so we dont know who God doesnt touch, Im so tired of hearing everyone squabble over the scriputres, nothing changed, we’re told not to argue yet many do. Wont be long and 3 angels will be preaching the gospel my guess is after the false one by the false prophet and false savior that will be teaching another first. Gods word does have enough verses that would support, he is merciful to the last moments, as he did say as you see the mood turn red and sun black, anyone who calls on his name will be saved. We are also told a parable of those who do a work at the end of the day, and those you may be judging may be doing work at the end of the day, so again theres the judge not judge again controversy. I believe if the lord came to die for the sins of the world he meant what he said , he wouldnt do anything half assed.

  136. miss bridgewater Mar 4th 2013

    At this point in time, many are taking on demonic feel good spirits via hand/forhead transfer, marked/judgement and common sense just tell me that these are more then likely being set up for the false one, those who have IT vs those who dont, period. There will many of all sorts shapes sizes that will be on both sides. Never forget evil hides where you wouldnt think to look, and good may be just as hidden in these times.

  137. jackrabbit Mar 4th 2013

    If I was gay I would look at the the Christian coven and see that the occult is okay, Jesus forgives you but gay is sin?

  138. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    Hmmm….so you are saying that the DEATH of Jesus Christ was NOT necessary for SOME SINS, but only the sins that YOU deem worse than others?

    And once again I point to the original languages….even though….I am mocked for doing so.

    The word SIN refers to the COMMISSION of sin in thought, word, or deed.

    The word INIQUITY refers to the SIN NATURE that we are BORN WITH. According to God we ALL are born with a sin nature because we are related to Adam and Eve.

    But according to some people on this blog…their children are not born with a sin nature.

    Therefore, the scriptures do not lie.

    We can Walk by the Spirit and NOT SIN in thought, word, or deed!
    While we still carry around THE SIN NATURE/INIQUITY WITHIN US that the Holy Spirit is purifying, crucifying, and delivering us from…..hence….deliverance, redemption, sanctification being done within us on a daily basis, IF WE SURRENDER TO THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    But even if we don’t volunteer for His sanctification, God will CHANGE YOUR MIND WITH various trials, judgment, tribulation, and His Fire.

  139. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    ALL sin is worthy of death……Did not Jesus DIE for ALL SIN?

    Or did Jesus only die for SOME SINS?

    Did He only die for the TOP 10 sins? (10 commandments)

  140. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    Oh yes Sandra, I really appreciate the parable of the 10 Virgins.

    You realize that ALL 10 were Virgins….therefore they were born again believers.

    10 born again believers who have the LIGHT….the Holy Spirit.

    Only 5 of the born again believers were wise and WILLING to allow the Holy Spirit to deliver them from their INIQUITY…..thus INCREASING THE CAPACITY OF THEIR VESSEL TO HOLD THE FULLNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    The other 5 born again believers who did not SUBMIT to being purified/sanctified by the Holy Spirt…….they were not allowed into the WEDDING of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

    The door was shut to born again believers who are disobedient and RESIST the Holy Spirit.

    No mention of people who are NOT born again.

  141. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    Also no mention of people being refused entrance into Heaven/Paradise.

    They are refused participation in the Wedding.

  142. Roger (NZ) Mar 4th 2013

    Surely this passage from Revelation describes those who were never born again, and who are refused entrance into New Jerusalem..?

    Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  143. Roger (NZ) Mar 4th 2013

    Certainly – Lord Jesus died for all sin of mankind, not just a select few.

  144. Roger (NZ) Mar 4th 2013

    Lightning Storm, you say: “..Also no mention of people being refused entrance into Heaven/Paradise. They are refused participation in the Wedding…”

    ***
    When Lord Jesus returns, we are told that He gathers those who are physically dead, (but spiritually with Him), and those who are living.

    They are ‘translated in the twinkllng of an eye’, they will receive glorified bodies, like Lord Jesus at His ascension. So these ones, together, are the Bride of Christ, and it is the Bride and the Bridegroom (Lord Jesus) who attend the wedding feast.

    Any who miss out on this wedding feast, surely are not a part of the Bride..?

    Earlier, Sandra quoted a scripture passge, where Lord Jesus says: “…Depart from me…” He doesn’t know those ones – and in another scripture, He explains that their destination is the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.. as confirmed in the Rev. 20 passage.

    Surely – If one isn’t at the wedding – how could they be granted entrance to Heaven/Paradise..?

    In His love,
    Roger

  145. fabakary Mar 4th 2013

    Marilyn Crow:
    “I agree Fabakary that we must emphasise the truth which is Christ. We need to feed on, talk & share of Him. Very true.

    Just a point in regards to the religious organisations & pointing to them. Yes it can lead to self righteousness etc as you said, however the Lord pointed out the Pharisaical system of His day & who was behind it, then He went on to relate & talk to the everyday person telling them of the Father & other great truths.”

    Thank you marilyn for the respond. Now you are comparing organize Christianity with the phyrasees ? Was any of the pharisees safe ? Is there no God children in organize Christianity ? Do you mean none of the present organization has God working in it ? or are you saying none of the present organization in all the world is originated by God , not even one?
    The spirit of the pharisees today is internal . Jesus the pharasees say and do not. That mean they had some truths, and preach and teach such truth but they do not do what they preach. Why ? is it not because they reject , the spirit of truth, Christ ? You see we can know and have a lots of ‘truths” but until we allow Christ to work in us , we will be modern pharisees. The modern pharisees, is not just the heretic for the heretic has error , he is the one that has some “truths” but refuse or is too busy with other things to submit to the working of Christ ,that the spirit of truth may produce those truths. So to keep diverting the blame to organize religion , is never the solution.Lets be responsible. Lets come into the realization that with Christ , we will be problem solvers. If we think or believes another group or some people refuse to be solvers of the problems, that those not mean we cant do anything about it. If we submit to christ he will make us problems solvers to our neighbors.His light will shine through us. I have a few believers we felloewship in my country here , we find it a waste of time to be talking about organize Christianity or denominations , in staed we allow the Lord to use each of us to encouraged one another, by the things we faced, and how he help us overcome. You know such will keep you pressing. We know in the heat of trials it is christ , only Christ himself will see us through , not because another group is right or wrong. The scripture say the word is near you, our helper the problem solver is near all of us. Whether you go to a building or not , what will see you through is Christ working in you. God bless you.

  146. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    Refer to Revelation chapter 3….written to the churches.

    Read what it says about the OVERCOMERS.

    ONLY the OVERCOMERS, those 5 Virgins who have more oil than the other 5, enter in.

    ALL of Matt 25 is speaking to Jesus’ Kingdom….to people who claim to be followers of Jesus…..not the unregenerate.

    Rev 21:7 He that OVERCOMES shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

    Rev 21:8 But the FEARFUL, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and IDOLATORS, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    OK…I’m finished. This is getting off track in my opinion.

    The point that I have been making (obviously not clearly enough) was the same point as Jesus was making in the following verses:

    Jhn 8:1 KJV
    Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    Jhn 8:2 KJV
    And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    Jhn 8:3 KJV
    And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    Jhn 8:4 KJV
    They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery (OR HOMOSEXUALITY), in the very act.

    Jhn 8:5 KJV
    Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    Jhn 8:6 KJV
    This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not].

    Jhn 8:7 KJV
    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    Jhn 8:8 KJV
    And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    Jhn 8:9 KJV
    And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    Jhn 8:10 KJV
    When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    Jhn 8:11 KJV
    She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: GO AND SIN NO MORE.

  147. GaryB Mar 4th 2013

    The one thing Jesus did not say to the woman caught in adultery was:

    Pull up a chair I know you have a weak moment and was born this way and come to the meetings and learn of my love.

    The difference is she repented on the spot and followed Jesus.

    Modern day Christianity is saying come to the church and we will not mention about this sin there is so much more to learn about God’s acceptance.

    I think this is what the whole article above is telling us, and that is “continue sin your still welcome at this church”.

  148. Stephen Mar 4th 2013

    Revelation 2:12-29

    12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

    13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

    15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

    19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

    20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

    22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

    25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    28 And I will give him the morning star.

    29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    God does not change. If He stood ready to judge those churches for their tolerance of false doctrine and sexual immorality then so will He judge all who teach so. God is Holy and can not tolerate sin. God is Good and so He must punish the sinner. God is Love so He made a way to have sins forgiven. God is Sovereign so His way is the only way. Woe to those who choose another path. Their blood is on their own heads and woe to those who preach otherwise because they will have blood on their hands as well.

  149. Jordan Shepherd Mar 4th 2013

    This is further fallout of the failure to acknowledge and properly understand the five-fold ministry as taught in Ephesians 4: in particular, that ministry responsible for equipping the saints for the work of service. Oh, that one I refer to would be evangelism – but not as we know it today. This deficiency is clearly seen in the homes of Christians who cannot minister the word nor the Spirit to their own children. Satan has successfully hijacked the minds of believers. The apologia and the ability to rightly divide the word is absent. That is why children are leaving the Church after “fun” youth groups have served their time and purpose. That is why the children of christian parents cannot endure in their faith beyond four years of university. That is why when our children join the military they walk away from Jesus. Did we teach our children to engage in spiritual warfare and to learn to walk in the spirit and to pull down strongholds and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. Satan must be laughing while Christians puff themselves up with pride, thinking they have been effective when in fact they failed to see the warning signs and the end of the age. Time to wake up and ask the hard questions, go back to the basics – God’s word.

  150. watchful Mar 4th 2013

    It becomes clear to me that sometimes we argue out of habit because it has become a habit of thinking/assuming we always know better than absolutely everyone. I’ve been stuck in that track, whoooooeeee. Time to climb down from all pedestals and stand on level ground.

    It’s lost on me why anybody would want to pick and arugument with the warning of the parable of the 10 virgins, which is a valid and relevant reminder for these last days, and will not return to Him void, thank you Father. Whether we have all our little theological ducks in a row or not, lets not forget that it is by HIS SPIRIT that matters. Or else the early church was sunk, because they didn’t even have printing presses in those days to possess bibles. Knowledge can puff up, yes sirreee, it can, we must be careful.

    Lightning Storm, all well and good about the woman caught in adultery, except that the people here are not throwing stones at anybody, so it just doesn’t apply. I think for most of us we are only talking about keeping our garments clean and separating by the grace and SPIRIT of God from last days deceptions, of which this seems to be the final nail in the coffin of the church that is falling away.. That the Lord is sovereign over all these things and ultimately victorious over evil is surely not a license for us to cast off restraint and just “let it be”, IF that is your thinking, which I’m not even sure what your point is..

  151. Anna M. Mar 4th 2013

    Ps.138:2 “For You have magnified Your word [foundations] above all Your name.”

    The first-fruit of Christ’s work in men, is always a ‘true’ repentance. This is the litmus test determining the quality of all fruit to come. A pseudo repentance produces a pseudo fruit. Jesus’ first command, was to REPENT. . . to actually stop in your tracks, do a complete turn around, and go the opposite direction as before. Mt. 4:17 .. REPENT !
    A false repentance apart from God’s holy standards, produces all manner of false fruits which may appear authentic. Jesus will test the quality of the fruit to see whether the new or old man has produced the fruit. The fruits lasting endurance, determines it’s genuineness. His judgement is 1. internal, 2. external, and 3. eternal. It is progressive. He gives us space to judge ourselves as He judges us. Will we agree with His Word, on our internal sin and external sin? or will he be forced to bring the eternal judgement because we refuse to see our sin as he sees it? This is the sheer mercy of a Holy God! We must look inside, see the evidenced fruit which is outside, and avoid his having to judge eternally because we refuse to judge ourselves here and now ..repenting unto redemption. Where’s the turning from iniquity (self serving/man’s laws, or to God serving/God’s laws). Two pathways, one very narrow, the other very broad. One pathway pleases the throngs traveling alongside us, hand joined in hand…lulled and contented in like-mindedness comfort. Feeling safety in their numbers. The other pathway pleases God alone. Few there be who find it. One is an easy way, the other very difficult.

    The simplicity of Matthew 7:22-24

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine-> [God's Words], and doeth them ->[God's Will], I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 The rain fell, the floods came [God's judgement of sin] , and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock [God's Words].
    26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand-> [men's words/wisdom].
    27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew [God's judgement of sin] and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.” ~ Jesus God Redeemer Righteous Judge

    ~These last day followers (believe) themselves submitted to His Lordship (Lord, Lord), filled, empowered, equipped, energized, enabled, bold, sincere..yet they were foolish and sincerely wrong! It was not the HOLY spirit which energized and empowered them. The TRUE HOLY SPIRIT always casts off sin in a great shout of freedom and victory, sin not having dominion over him! His eyes see all sin as an affront to the Holy Father, for He serves God and not himself! He never rationalizes nor placates sin. The false holy spirit allows for (serves) self will and self indulgence…in Jesus name! It is the spirit of iniquity which feigns holiness. He is the spirit which deceives man. God’s Words were (are) cast aside for men’s words, and God judged(s) the foundations of men’s words, as faulty indeed! Unable to stand the tests of His judgement against all the sins of men. He has placed his Word above even his name. Is our generation the foolish who esteem God’s words of less worth than those of men? Many will truly rue such deception when God reveals their folly. The foundations crumble around us, where do we stand today?

    Ps. 138:2: “For You have magnified Your word ->[foundations] above all Your name.”

  152. Hi Rob (Buckingham)

    While it’s laudable that you ‘get alongside people’, etc, as a Pastor (shepherd), scripturally, your number one priority is the spiritual health of the sheep that God has entrusted to your care. If you are doing that properly, then THEY will be the ones ‘getting alongside people’ who are ‘neglecting their salvation’.

    As stated before on this forum, by myself and others, the Bible calls for the Church to gather together for the purpose of building ONE ANOTHER up, NOT building up those who are not part of the Church (the Chruch being defined here as only those people who have been saved, in line with the scriptural definition).
    Such times of gathering are referred to as ‘fellowship’ in scripture and from what Paul tells us, there is no such thing as fellowship with unbelievers, of any description, homosexual or otherwise. Paul’s rhetorical questions in 2Cor.6:14-16, clearly point to this. No-one here (as far as I can see) is denying that we should be loving and compassionate towards homosexuals and all agree that they need to hear the Gospel, however, there is not an instance anywhere in scripture, where either Jesus or any of the Apostles adjusted their message in ANY way, so as to gain the ears of those they preached to.

    In fact, while it is common to appeal that; ‘If they know we love them, they will respond’, this is not how Jesus dealt with the rich young ruler; Even though the scripture tells us that Jesus loved the young man, He never said so directly to this young man himself. What He did do, was point out the one thing in that young man’s heart that needed correction and bluntly gave him an ultimatum. If it is true what you say about people reacting differently once they know we love them, why didn’t Jesus tell the young man He loved him, seeing as Mk 10:21 tells us that Jesus loved him?

    Further to that, in the book of Acts, we have several sermons recorded by different Apostles, yet not one of them contains anything about how much either God, or the preacher loved those in the audience. In fact, the very word ‘love’ doesn’t appear even once, in the whole 28 chapters of this book. If love is such a foundationally important concept as you claim it to be, why is the vey word TOTALLY absent from this record of what the Apostles did and said?

    All preachers of the Gospel in the New Testament, from John the Baptist, through Jesus Christ Himself, then on to Peter, Paul, Stephen and others, highlighted one thing above all else; repentance for sin. In fact, ‘Repent’ is the first word attributed to Jesus when He began to preach (Mat.4:17, Mk.1:15).

    Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost, berated the people for their sins, especially the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus, and bluntly demanded that they repent. Likewise Stephen’s oration to the Sanhedrin is far from what we could call loving, as he used words that in anyone’s estimation would be considered harsh (even abusive!), yet the charge of actually being unloving cannot be levelled at Stephen, for he famously begged God’s forgiveness for his killers.

    Unfortunately, you have fallen for the notion that if sinners know we love them, then they will accept the Gospel, but this is not borne out by the scriptural model of Jesus and the Apostles, as I’ve illustrated.

    Yes God loves people. Yes we are called to do likewise, even our enemies, but nowhere in scripture is there any record of God’s love for people (or ours) being needed to be proven before they accept the truth of God’s Word about their sin and their need for a Saviour. It just isn’t there.
    We are told to love people and treat them lovingly, even if they are killing us. The idea that we are to use our love for people as a kind of leverage to win them over to the Gospel is faintly repulsive. As we show love to even our bitterest enemies, there may be some who will be convinced of the truth of the Gospel and early accounts of martyrs praying for their executioners do speak of this, but nowhere in all of scripture do we find any example but to preach the truth about sin and the need for repentance without fear or favour, even if it means our death, as in Stephen’s case.

    Paul did not tell the Church at Corinth to ‘come alongside’ the man who was practising fornication so that they could point out how he was neglecting his salvation. He told them to kick him out so he would grasp the seriousness of his sinful behaviour. Do you suppose Paul would have responded any differently if this had involved homosexuality?

    Given that this letter was inspired by the Holy Spirit, we should take these words of Paul as coming from God Himself, so then the question becomes; Do you think God would have written something different if the issue was a homosexual relationship?

    While I do sympathise with your intention, I have to say that according to the scriptures, you are not following the clear teaching of God’s Word by allowing unrepentant sinners (of any kind) to be included in times of fellowship. By all means invite them to social gatherings, but true fellowship is for believers only, according to scripture and it should be of such a kind that if an unbeliever were present, he would be convicted and saved on the spot, as in 1Cor.14:24-25.

    If that is what happens at your church gatherings, praise The Lord! This would be wonderful indeed! However, there is no scriptural model for such an unbeliever attending week after week ad infinitum with no change.

    I’ve done the ‘Seeker sensitive Church’ thing and all I can say is that it did bring more people in, but it also led to a watering down of the Gospel to the point where any notion of holiness became not only meaningless, but actually anathema to most of the congregation.

    I have watched that happen in too many church bodies in my 49 years in the faith. It never gets any easier to cope with. I pray it never does.

  153. Anna M, God bless you sister for your piercing words of truth!

  154. Hello Andrew… how are you dear brother?

    Here in the UK pro-homosexual Govt. leaders (Cameron and Clegg) have totally ignored a 700,000 signature petition requesting that they drop their mad proposal to redefine the status and meaning of marriage to include homosexuals and lesbians. Not only so but the Conservative Party is loosing hundreds, if not thousands, of once loyal members over this issue, and several counsellors have resigned their post in protest. Even their main financial supporter has withdrawn his support because of the these mad proposals.

    http://uk-christians.net/group/marriage

    The Lord bless you and be with you,
    Alex (South Wales)

  155. Gary B-Quote
    “The one thing Jesus did not say to the woman caught in adultery was:

    Pull up a chair I know you have a weak moment and was born this way and come to the meetings and learn of my love.

    The difference is she repented on the spot and followed Jesus.

    Modern day Christianity is saying come to the church and we will not mention about this sin there is so much more to learn about God’s acceptance.

    I think this is what the whole article above is telling us, and that is “continue sin your still welcome at this church”.

    davo- this made me chuckle but it’s so true and ultimately not funny at all. An unsaved person not just welcome in church but you can be a part of church, a member of the church. We accept you just like you are. God accepts you just like you are. You can be saved just like you are. You can be a christian just like you are. Let’s just side step this ugly sin business and get you started on your new life.

    I’m know I’m not the first to say this but it bears repeating, that there are multitudes in church who were never saved because they never really repented of their sin, even though they participated in some religious form of coming to Christ, even baptism. So you have churches full of sinners, claiming to be christians, while they continue in sin, seeking after the world, thinking that is what a christian life is like.

    They adopt slogans like “I’m not perfect, just forgiven”. They adopt doctrines like “you can’t help but sin” and “you sin every day” and “we’re all just sinners” and “Paul was the chief of sinners, like me” The grace twisting preachers pervert grace into a license to sin all the while easing the consciences of the people with sentimental messages of how much God loves them. It’s treacherous folks, and we’ve all been deeply affected by it.

    This is the scripture that keeps coming back to me, over and over.

    That repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

    Repentance means stop!! No repentance, no forgiveness. No forgiveness, no salvation.

    That they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18

    We turn from darkness to light and receive forgiveness of sins and we are sanctified or separated from sin as we faithfully follow Christ.

  156. Anna M. Mar 4th 2013

    Alan, I do agree with your recent post. In short, Jesus is the only savior of sinners, and the savior of only sinners. We all qualify, but only repentance of our sin, seals the HS of promise within us.

    We were raised a rural family, where we milked a couple of cows by hand. I once released the freedom anxious cow from the stall, still hobbled with the ‘kickers’ on her legs. She stumbled out of the barn to her greener pastures, and …none the wiser to her plight. Certain she was “free” from all the limiting restraints she’d suffered at my will. I will always recall the ‘free – hobbled’ beast “free at last”. . How like us human animals, thinking ourselves freed from all of God’s oppressive restraints, we stumble into our greener pastures to find ourselves hobbled all the greater! True freedom lies in obedience to God’s Ways, not in freedom from them. God is good and all his ways good. This is how the new man is free from the law, his rebellious nature has been changed to a compliant nature of obedience to God..Jesus’ nature in us! To serve the old man, only enslaves us further to the old nature of death.

  157. Lightning Storm Mar 4th 2013

    So sticks and stones hurt worse than REJECTION AND WORDS?

    Oh that’s right, you are not rejecting homosexuals…you’re just not allowing them to come into your church building.

    Ok…then start inviting them into your homes at the dinner table, since the church building is too HOLY for sinners to enter!

    And the comment about the Apostles not talking about Jesus’ Love for sinners is astounding! The epistles not talking about Love!

    What in the world are the GREATEST COMMANDMENTS?

    Absolutely astounding!

    And it has been said before, many times, God deals with the people who claim to be His Followers DIFFERENTLY then He deals with those who do not KNOW Him or claim to KNOW Him.

    The Judgments of God are HARSHER on those who are claiming to be His Followers and yet do not FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS.

    I totally agree with the Father on that one.

  158. Roger (NZ) Mar 4th 2013

    Anna, your ‘hobbled cow’ brought back memories of hand milking, thankyou :-)

    Alos a reminder of the following teaching to do with true freedom, true liberty.

    ***
    I was recently listening to a David Pawson teaching, he explained the difference between those ‘christians’ who walk under the law, in the flesh, or in the Spirit;

    Legalism (law) says:- a Christian does NOT sin – and is saved by works

    License (flesh) says:- a Christian has freedom TO sin (the cross covers ALL sin) – and is saved without works

    Liberty (spirit) says:- a Christian has the freedom NOT TO sin – and is saved for works

    Christ Jesus came to set us free from bondage, when we are truly abiding in Him, then we have liberty, we walk in the Holy Spirit.

    Through this Christian walk, it isn’t that we are perfect yet, it is that we are free from the power of sin, therefore, we have a choice, we have the freedom NOT TO sin, if we choose.

    Paul explains this when he said that what he would not do, he did. John explains that when, as a Christian we sin, we repent and are cleansed/forgiven. Neither suggested that it was OK to sin, quite the opposite – yet I believe that both recognised that born-again Christians do sin through their life.

    It is what we do with that ‘sin’ when we know we have sinned.

    When I look back over my Christian walk, even after baptism in the Holy Spirit, I know that I have sinned – I didn’t plan to, didn’t want to – but I did. The indwelling Holy Spirit would prompt, counsel, convict me of this sin – I would repent.

    I have also learned to pray specifically, (and this is ongoing) asking our Heavenly Father to show me of anything and everything that He desires me to repent of – and I will get flashbacks of words spoken, actions performed, that require repentance. My desire is to be sorted out now, whilst still mortal, to be cleansed now, purified, refined, for His use.

  159. watchful Mar 4th 2013

    Of course you do Lightning Storm. ;) But my bible indicates that it’s those who aren’t troubled by these things are the ones who will come into judgment..

    The churches have never in my experience “forbidden” homosexuals and other unsaved folks from attending their services……so what they REALLY mean by suddenly officially “welcoming” homosexuals (who had never been “not welcome” before) is that they have crossed a line into now welcoming SIN and promising not to raise a standard against it…..How long it will take before these same churches are “marrying” homosexual couples and putting homosexuals in the pulpits? Anyone who thinks that won’t happen is just naive. Not only that but the lost will now apparently be translated into the kingdom of God with the power of ……………. “good advice”..?? And you agree with all this apparently, since I don’t hear any condescension, mocking or rebuke going in that direction.

    It’s simply incorrect to assume that those who feel this way about what is happening with the CHURCH are throwing stones and condemning the LOST. There are two different issues being confused here, but that doesn’t surprise me.

  160. Anna M. Mar 4th 2013

    @ Lightening Storm..re: God deals with the people who claim to be His Followers DIFFERENTLY then He deals with those who do not KNOW Him or claim to KNOW Him.

    I believe that is supported in the word; though not left to private interpretation. Many would split hairs here, yet the concept remains a very high accountability for those having “tasted of the truth”, and spitting it out. Heb. 10:26-27 Now if we sin deliberately after we have known and accepted the truth, there can be no further sacrifice for sin for us.
    I believe God deals with all differently according to the measure of light and truth He brings to each one. He may expect greater or lesser obedience to me or you than to Sam and Jane. Perhaps we have been exposed to varying levels of teaching..more accountable. Perhaps we are less accountable than Jane and Sam. We are all at varying degrees of Christian maturity. Good point, Mr. L. Storm! God is quite patient and long-suffering to us all, and we need to be likewise toward others as well, and others toward us.

    @ Roger (NZ) I really appreciate your insights as well. Won’t it be wonderful when we will know, even as we are known? Until that day, we all rejoice that He is our Righteousness in full! He Alone, gives us the desire and power to do what we should do. Sometimes I do feel that my feet of clay slow me down far too much! :D

    1 John.1:3-3
    Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    GBY!

  161. Roger (NZ) Mar 4th 2013

    L.Storm, Watchful, Anna,

    I just been pondering on this further, and it seems to me that it isn’t that Christians won’t, or don’t allow practising sinners (of any sin) into their church buildings – the point of this topic is that they are and they do.. ..and yes Watchful, it is only a matter of time before the ‘law of the land’ (even in NZ) declares that same sex marriages are ‘legal’.

    At risk of repeating what others have said, my apologies…

    Maybe the ‘bottom line’ question to be asked is – will Lord Jesus allow ‘practising sinners’ (of any sin) into His ‘church’, which is His worldwide, organic Ekklesia, Body of Christ, the members of which will need spotless garments to be members of the Bride of Christ…? We know the answer is no..!!

    Therefore the ‘christians’ who compromise with practising sinners, allowing them to believe this is OK with Lord Jesus – are not helping those sinners to recognise their sin, repent, and accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

    Yes Jesus accepts us as we are, (full of sin) when we first meet Him. Through repentance, and acceptance that He is Lord and God, and with the indwellling Holy Spirit – He sets us free from that bondage to sin, so that we have liberty in Him, to choose not to sin, because we love Him for who He is, and the sacrifice that He has made for each individual.

    In His love for all,
    Roger

  162. Marilyn Crow Mar 4th 2013

    Fabakary.

    Thank you for your relevant comments. We also fellowship with others, encouraging, praying & helping each other with our non Christian relationships. Thus we are not concerned with the religious system.

    However I thought I`d clarify a point. I mentioned `Pharisaical system.` This the Lord explains as as system of `teaching as their doctrine the precepts (rules) of men.` (Matt. 15: 9) Yes this can be done by others in home groups etc, & yes we can operate like the Pharisees – hypocritical.

    But when I was talking about the Pharisaical system I was pointing out how the religious system of today (as in Roman times) is politically connected to the world`s system. System meaning how they operate – the traditions of men with human rules. And as the world system gets driven to come together & be inclusive, tolerant, etc, etc so is the religious system being driven that way also.

    With regards to people who attend those public meetings, of course many are Christians. We have many friends who attend caring fellowships. And yes the Lord has moved through people over the years who have started up those fellowships. My family helped start the Apostolic Church in Australia back in the `40`s.

    But the system, how the organisation operates is not the way God told us to operate. It is now being addressed by God who is exposing the control, abuse of authority & man`s use of business methods (entertainment, promotions etc).

    Hope this clarifies our discussion.

  163. Anna M. Mar 5th 2013

    @ Roger (NZ) re:will Lord Jesus allow ‘practising sinners’ (of any sin) into His ‘church’, which is His worldwide, organic Ekklesia, Body of Christ, the members of which will need spotless garments to be members of the Bride of Christ…? We know the answer is no..!!

    The OT prophets had one purpose alone -God’s messengers
    The angels had(ve) one purpose alone -God’s messengers
    The Church has one purpose alone -God’s messengers
    There is no greater calling than -God’s messengers

    God has entrusted us with the greatest of all treasures.. HIS TRUTH
    We speak God’s Words of truth to men bound with satan’s lies..
    Our world is veiled in deception and lies. His Words are the only contrasting truths. Our responsibility in the church, is to speak God’s words of truth. Darkness hates light. If people want to come(are drawn of him), they will come and receive God’s words. If they don’t want to hear God’s words, they will flee the presence of them. We need to be faithful to represent His Holiness. He will do the rest, to the breaking or hardening of the stony heart. We will be accountable for the accuracy of what we speak. We are accountable for what they hear, they are accountable for their reaction to what they hear, be that good or bad…life or death.

  164. watchful Mar 5th 2013

    Amen Roger, this has nothing to with church buildings at all but ultimately about what spirit is in people. Whether they still be of Christ….or not, having fallen away and received of another spirit….

    This compromising means a weak or non-existent gospel, and correct me if I’m wrong but I have wondered for a while if when there is a weak gospel, in spirit and word, people either don’t really get saved at all, or they don’t get saved properly, ie, they still have more burdens and bondages than they really should have following salvation.

  165. miss bridgewater Mar 5th 2013

    When we learn that christs rightousness counts for us, then we become free, and you are more apt to follow him in appreciation for what he did, naturally and when we continue in sin, we are out of fellowship and even though we wander off the path, is is HE who comes and retrieves us. Let the lord do the work, its so tiring to hear everyone go back and forth, back and forth to and fro , to and fro, sounds like giant waves of the storm….hum theres lots of advise the word give us concerning this issue, guess as long as the waves keep churning then get ready for the ship to sink. Guess theres two spirits at work , even in this blog.

  166. Marilyn Crow Mar 5th 2013

    What a great picture Miss bridgewater. Had a good chuckle. The dam is breaking. People have for so long been unheard, sitting in a pew that now people are finding their voice & wondering what they believe.

    Yes it can go on, & on, & on, & the billows roll, but we all know that Christ is the one who will quieten the storm & reveal Himself to us in a great way.

  167. jackrabbit Mar 5th 2013

    Perhaps everyone is taking the homosexuals being accepted by a church with a reputation for being into the occult too seriously. It is not a church anyway.

    If a pastor is into the occult personally I do not take them seriously as a pastor anyway. The homosexuals are just going to get brainwashed and used by sorcerers preaching another gospel anyway. Perhaps we should be trying to save them from the church rather than trying to save the church from them.

  168. fabakary Mar 5th 2013

    Marilyn crow:
    “But the system, how the organization operates is not the way God told us to operate. It is now being addressed by God who is exposing the control, abuse of authority & man`s use of business methods (entertainment, promotions etc).”
    Thank you again Marilyn crow for having the time to response to me. I love that. Anyway You know when you talk about how the organization operate , that means you are saying none of the organization God raise today is operating as God is directing it ? Not even one ? I personally believe why God allows using today many of the imperfect ways like denominations etc is because of the immaturity of the “Church” in the general sense. We have not grown in a general sense for the eye, hand, foot, ear etc to walk together. So God will rather have the eye to walk with the eye than no working together at all. What I mean look even among the “come outers ” how many can tolerate differences? You know one of the sign of immaturity within the Church according to the scripture is divisions. I have through the net see the worst kind of division among “comeouters”. I have never experience such while in the denominations and it made me wonder a lot, why all the high talk , and sifting blame to organize religion after all , when even two can hardly work together among them. So our immaturity is plainly evidence. And we cannot be mature by any other way than a deeper relationship with Christ. The more we know Christ , the more we know ourselves and know men. And that is a way to unity. True unity only come from Christ, there is no other way. So we need a more and more consciousness , relationship with Christ. Talking about this or that , every time will never solve the problem but Christ will do. God bless you.

  169. Marilyn Crow Mar 5th 2013

    fabakary

    You ask some very interesting & thoughtful questions for discussion. I`ll try & tell you what I believe.

    Firstly, yes it is an imperfect Body of Christ at the moment as we have not come to full maturity as a Body with the unity of Faith. (as Eph. 4 says)

    That is why there is so many differences. Christians have been taught many parts of God`s overall plan but have not been shown correctly how it all fits together. Thus the many errors.

    Christians tend to think everything in the Bible revolves around them, the Body of Christ & read the Bible accordingly. Whereas the Bible is for us to read but not all about us.

    So as God unfolds more of His word of the 3 people groups, the Body of Christ, Israel & the nations, the scripture becomes clearer.

    Now to the organisations. The organisations of man are just that – organisations that organise public meeting & other gatherings.
    Previously it was not so obvious how the organisations were connected to the world`s system, however nowadays to be an organisation they have to take on board the world`s values.

    So it is just a matter of time as to the pressure that the leaders of organisations who desire to obey God & not man, as to where they will draw the line.

    Journeying together in Him. God bless, Marilyn.

  170. fabakary Mar 5th 2013

    Good to hear again from you marilyn. About natural isreal I have not get concerning that but I believe that the Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world including muslims nations, before the end of the world as prophesied by our Lord. I did not believe the world will end in with a famine of the words of God , because the lord told us the gospel will be preached in all the world and the the end will come. And millions of millions have not yet heard about the gospel of the kingdom yet in present nations.
    You wrote:
    “Previously it was not so obvious how the organisations were connected to the world`s system, however nowadays to be an organisation they have to take on board the world`s values.

    So it is just a matter of time as to the pressure that the leaders of organisations who desire to obey God & not man, as to where they will draw the line.”
    So that settle all, it is an individual responsibility. Drawing the Line is their personal responsibility , if God called them to such work he has the grace to lead them how to go, we cant judge such. Pressure from the world system affects us all individually;no man is an exception but with Christ we overcome the world while in the world. We need a deeper walk with Christ and glad you agree with that. Stay bless.

  171. This is what my colleagues about if homosexuality is wrong
    http://www.gaychristian101.com/Homosexuality-Wrong.html

  172. I feel that I am not allowed to share much on this web site despite giving my account about the bible talking about gay relationships. So due to this, I have withdrawn from the discussion for my comments have been blocked.

  173. Richard Savage Mar 5th 2013

    Rightly so!

  174. Lightning, again you have erected a straw-man to knock down.
    I never said that there was nothing in the Epistles about love.

    What I said was (and please note this carefully) that in the sermons recorded in the book of Acts, there is no mention of the word. In fact, it is totally absent from the entire 28 chapters. Given that this book is called The Acts of the Apostles, this fact is very strange if God’s love for humanity is to be the focal point of preaching the Gospel to the lost.
    Of course it is our main motivation for preaching the Gospel.
    WE know that God so loved the world, because we believe God’s Word. We also know that Jesus loved the rich young ruler, because Mark tells us so, but Jesus did not say to that young man; “Look, I love you and I want you to be saved, so that is why I am giving you this directive.”

    He just points out the one problem in the young man’s heart and demands that the young man deal with it. The fact that Jesus loved him, was of no effect in that young man’s life, because he refused to accept the diagnosis (and the prescription for his spiritual ill) of the Master Physician and went away.

    My point is that while we are commanded to love, we are also commanded to preach as Jesus and the Apostles preached, which ALWAYS begins with preaching the truth about sin and calling on people to repent:- Lu. 24:47; Acts 5:31, 20:21, 26:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Cor. 7:10;
    2 Tim. 2:25; 2 Peter 3:9

    There is no scripture anywhere that instructs us to preach that God loves before we preach that God requires repentance, nor is there any indication that we should preach anything BUT repentance.

    You seem to be saying that to exclude people from fellowship because they are unbelievers is unloving, but the Bible itself tells us that such people ARE excluded form fellowship, BECAUSE they are unbelievers. This is not something that we or anyone else can vote for and have it accepted, just like Roger (and others) have said.

    You can huff and puff about the truth of what I said about the Apostles’ preaching not mentioning the word love, but it’s a fact of scripture. The Epistles were written to BELIEVERS for their edification and teaching, not to unsaved people.
    I’m sorry if that offends you, but I didn’t write the New Testament, the Holy Spirit did and HE makes it abundantly clear that the message of the Gospel is about repentance before it’s about anything else.

    Until a sinner accepts that God regards him as a sinner and requires his repentance for his sins, all the love of God expressed by Jesus’ death on the cross is of no use to him at all.
    Unless (as I said once before), you hold to the view that because Christ paid the price for all sin, then all people will be saved, which is gaining popularity again, in certain circles, but is unscriptural.

    You are correct that the two greatest commandments are to love God and then our neighbour, but these are commandments given to followers of Christ, people who are saved. They are not directives to PREACH that God loves sinners as they are. In fact, in the Old Testament, God’s Word says that to allow someone to sin and not rebuke it, is to HATE them (Lev.19:17), while in the New Testament, we are told the same (1st Tim.5:20, 2nd Tim.4:2, Tit.1:13, Tit.2:15), while Jesus said that those He loves He rebukes AND CHASTENS (Rev.3:19).

    This is not about being loving or unloving, it’s about obeying the scriptural injunction against trying to fellowship with unbelievers
    (2 Cor.6:14-18)
    The same Holy Spirit that inspired those words also gives us a love for the lost and would never urge us to adopt a ‘siege mentality’, having nothing at all to do with the world, but as He is the one whose presence brings true fellowship among believers when they gather, I think we would do well to heed His directive.

    When all is said and done, if we follow what the Word of God says we should and shouldn’t do in our gathering together for fellowship, we can’t go wrong, but that means barring some people from such gatherings, according to scripture.
    We may not be very comfortable with how that looks to outsiders, but we should be looking to please God, not men, come what may.

  175. Anna M. Mar 5th 2013

    @ enquirer Re: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9906265/Like-Jesus-on-the-cross-the-gay-community-know-what-it-is-to-be-abandoned.html

    To draw correlations between God’s Holy Sacrifice Lamb and the defiant homosexual (or any unrepentant sinner) is topping blasphemous.
    Is. 53:7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    He was willingly oppressed by God, afflicted by God, opened not his mouth because he knew himself guilty before God, God brought him to the slaughter because he was the Lamb of Sacrifice. He clung to the cross because it was God’s Will to punish man’s sin in him. We cling to our sin because we value our sin more than we value our relationship with Him. I find no similarities between the Holiness of God and the sinfulness of men. Albeit, they always meet at the cross.

    Mt. 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    Isaiah – Chapter 53
    1. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
    3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
    10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

  176. JOHN came unto you drinking neither wine nor eating meat
    and YE say ………………………..
    THe son of man came unto YOU drinking wine
    and ye say…………………behold a glutton and a sinner………
    IN other words………………………….it dont MATTER WHO COMES
    PREACHING the TRUTH ……………..they find any reason to accuse instead of HEAR…………….
    and this is MASSSIVE amongst many now.
    THERE are none here who hate sinners………..
    BUT they are some here beginning to get infected with sensual love , a love only the flesh KNOWS……………
    IF we WANT TO KNOW LOVE…………….WHAT REAL LOVE IS………….
    GO YE and READ THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT.
    and TRUST ………………………..JESUS warned MASSIVE about NOT CONTINUING IN SIN.
    I grow weary of false love ones………………….
    who save none…………..have a good story………..
    YET attack those who speak as DID JESUS.
    TIME ENOUGH. TIME enough. LET this warning sink in DEEP.
    amen. STOP listening to your own heart……………AND LISTEN
    to what JESUS said. NOW GO and learn WHAT TRUE LOVE REALLY IS……………..not what the world and churches tell you IT IS. LOVE accepts NOT SIN………………for the end of that is death.
    LOVE shuns not to warn all men to repent…………..
    as DID PAUL as well. WE growing up american
    and we should be growing UP IN JESUS.

  177. That’s a good word Randall, Love in the Lord, Andrew… :-)

  178. Dear Rob (Buckingham)

    Here is a rare opportunity to dialogue with sincere brothers and sisters concerning how the Church should be functioning today in a biblical sense.

    I hope you can find the time to reply.

    Your article raised many issues that have been discussed here.

    The matters that stand out for me are:

    Biblically the door to the Church as we see in Acts is repentance and believers baptism.

    Church fellowship in Acts was not a public meeting but a gathering of believers.

    The first believers spread their faith in the world, going out as commanded.

    Preaching was done in public.

    Those who were being drawn by Him were added to fellowship as they were being saved – forsaking their ungodly lifestyles- and following Jesus example in baptism.

    Unbelievers stayed away sensing that a Holy Presence was with the gathered.

    Daily life was characterised by a thriving Christian community in which the world could see the love of the Father among them.

    The modern ‘church’ has chosen to operate in reverse.

    The unsaved are bought into “fellowship” by whatever means possible.

    “Fellowship” is public not private.

    Preachers preach to the gathered and not to the world.

    Christian community is almost non-existent.

    This modern way of operating has paid staff to do ‘spiritual service’.

    … Why do I question this way of operating.

    1. The fruit is not there – I do not see thousands of transformed lives being added to His Kingdom.

    2. One denomination in my country looked at the total budget of all churches in my city and concluded that the spend was about 1M for each convert.

    3. Adopting a model different than what we see the Spirit established with such success must be questioned especially when the fruitful yield for His Kingdom is largely absent.

    Please hear us.

    I met Jesus dramatically about 60 years ago and long for a return to the biblical Christianity prescribed in His book.

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.

  179. That’s a good word Carl, That is what my heart longs for also, Love in the Lord, Andrew… :-)

  180. Lightning Storm Mar 5th 2013

    Alan says the following words:

    “They are not directives to PREACH that God loves sinners as they are. In fact, in the Old Testament, God’s Word says that to allow someone to sin and not rebuke it, is to HATE them (Lev.19:17), while in the New Testament, we are told the same (1st Tim.5:20, 2nd Tim.4:2, Tit.1:13, Tit.2:15), while Jesus said that those He loves He rebukes AND CHASTENS (Rev.3:19).”

    Alan…..You are mixing APPLES with ORANGES.
    You are forgetting to pay attention to WHOM the scriptures are speaking to…..You are quoting scriptures that were written to BELIEVERS and teaching them how THE KINGDOM OF GOD operates among themselves.

    Unbelievers are not a part of the Kingdom of God. If the scripture is ACTUALLY SAYING “people of the world” or ” unregenerate” or “unsaved”….then it is referring to UNREPENTANT UNSAVED PEOPLE.

    Plus you are REJECTING all that LOVE STUFF that Jesus preached, brother.

    Before we are born again, WE ARE AN ENEMY OF GOD. I don’t care how MORAL you are….you are an ENEMY.

    After we are born again, if we do not submit to the Holy Spirit’s AUTHORITY at any time, WE ARE ACTING AS AN ENEMY OF GOD. ONLY OVERCOMERS are called FRIENDS OF GOD. ONLY OVERCOMERS ARE CALLED SONS OF GOD.

    Col 1:21 KJV
    And YOU, that were SOMETIMES ALIENATED AND ENEMIES IN YOUR MIND BY WICKED WORKS, yet now hath He reconciled

    Mar 3:35 For whosoever SHALL DO THE WILL OF GOD, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but HE WHO DOES THE SILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven will enter.

    Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the FRIENDSHIP OF THE WORLD IS ENMITY WITH GOD with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    { Did you notice the above verse says “OF THE WORLD” not “with the world”? This scripture is often used to mean do not be friends with unbelievers! How stupid! Jesus had a BAD REPUTATION with the religious people of the day BECAUSE JESUS FELLOWSHIPPED WITH HARLOTS, DRUNKARDS, PAGANS!…….Did Jesus bring the harlots, drunkards, and pagans into the Garden where He went to WORSHIP His Father? NO….He didn’t even let the disciples/apostles come with Him.}

    Mat 5:44 KJV
    But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    Mat 5:45 KJV
    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Mat 5:46 KJV
    For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

    Mat 5:47 KJV
    And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

    Mat 5:48 KJV
    BE ye therefore PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER which is in heaven is perfect.

    We are not ONLY TO PREACH (whatever that word means) that GOD LOVES SINNERS, but we are to ACTUALLY LOVE THEM WITH AGAPAO/AGAPE LOVE….THE SAME LOVE THAT GOD ASKS US TO LOVE HIM WITH.

  181. Lightning Storm Mar 5th 2013

    The ONLY Fruit that Father is coming to HARVEST is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit in Gal 5.

  182. And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people. (Isaiah 57:14 KJV)

    The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NASB)

  183. Lightning Storm Mar 5th 2013

    Yes, Andrew Horton. A very good scripture….

    Notice the stumbling blocks and the lawless are gathered OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    Praise God for HIS FIRE now in our lives! His Fire will burn out EVERY thing within His People that rises up against Him, so that we will be like PURE GOLD that will REFLECT HIS IMAGE.

  184. miss bridgewater Mar 6th 2013

    To An enquirer, dont fret I think others understand where you are coming from. I dont know that your stuff has been blocked, but your voice has not gone unheard. This is one of the reasons why members of the glbt community need to flee all churches period, most knew the lord in childhood he is still the same, read his word, I suggest the KJV, always repent every time you fall, and make sure you do not fall for the deception of the false one soon to arrive on the scene. xoxo

  185. Roger (NZ) Mar 6th 2013

    Lightning Storm – I see that you agree with Andrew J.H. scripture post..? ..and you say that these are gathered out of the Kingdom of God..?

    In context, the Matthew 13 passage is Jesus explanation of the righteous and unrighteous, the wheat and the tares, (or darnel), and how the tares, whose father is the devil, are gathered and cast into the furnace of fire (lake of fire.?.) at the end of the age. So that gathering is still future, isn’t it..?

    Better that those who are considered to be tares (unrighteous) now, by God, – repent, turn from their wicked ways, and accept Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour. The door to salvation is not closed yet.

    For confirmation, we may look at 1 Corinthians 6, and we see Pauls teaching: “…have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God..” (YLT)
    where Paul is speaking of the unrighteous, those who practise sin, will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, will not spend an eternity in the presence of Lord Jesus. In this passage Paul is commending those who have repented, who have been washed and sanctified, and now declared righteous.

    ***
    An Enquirer – one of those links you posted appears to be written by a practising homosexual..? given that he mentions his male partner, and your other link points to those who have twisted scripture to support an active, gay lifestyle. False teaching at best.

    The above scripture is clear – and others were posted earlier in this thread.

    ***
    Devils Advocate – these are NT scriptures, this are Lord Jesus words, both of Himself and through Paul.

    DA, choosing the devil to ‘plead the cause of before a Judge’..? Not wise my friend, even in jest.

    ***
    Lastly, Yes Lightning Storm – we are to love all sinners, the people themselves, with the Love which is Christ Jesus – He came to save not to judge – when He walked the Earth.

    However, we are not to love, accept or condone the sin, either in ourself, or in others. We can preach/teach/share these truths from scripture, praying that the Holy Spirit will intervene, and that all sinners will repent from their unbelief in Jesus as the Messiah of God, and as Lord of all – before that door is closed, before His return in judgement.

    A reminder from John 16:
    “..Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    In His love,
    Roger

  186. Roger (NZ) Mar 6th 2013

    Apologies – That last section is all scripture from John 16:
    “..Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

  187. { Did you notice the above verse says “OF THE WORLD” not “with the world”? This scripture is often used to mean do not be friends with unbelievers! How stupid! Jesus had a BAD REPUTATION with the religious people of the day BECAUSE JESUS FELLOWSHIPPED WITH HARLOTS, DRUNKARDS, PAGANS!…….Did Jesus bring the harlots, drunkards, and pagans into the Garden where He went to WORSHIP His Father? NO….He didn’t even let the disciples/apostles come with Him.}
    TO whomever wrote this………………………
    LETS NOT FORGET………………..they were REPENTANT sinners
    they came TO HEAR HIM………….not to CONTINUE IN SIN.
    THE pharissees called them sinners………….BECAUSE
    they did NOT FOLLOW the pharisees. and the pharisees
    thought they were good and holy because they did this or that.
    DO NOT be YE unequally yoked togehter with unbelievers.
    HOWEVER when we are amongst them, we are to be kind
    and trying to win them to the GOSPLE.
    BUT BE YE NOT UNEQAULLY YOKED.
    many a man…………………..FEARS to say that being gay is a sin
    and will make any excuse as to why they do as they do.
    WARN them NOT………………….and their blood is ON YOU.
    A lil leaven will leaven the ENTIRE LUMP.
    warn them NOT and their BLOOD is on YOU.
    A unbeliever when coming into a church
    MUST be convinced of sin, must know asap they are in danger.
    LOOK at how paul , peter, etc………….TALKED to the unsaved.
    NOW go ye and DO THE SAME………………..or please
    stop trying to convince those who do what is right.
    WARN them to repent. OR their BLOOD is ON YOU.
    NO KINGDOM at the end for any man who lets one remain in sin.
    NO kingdom, only a lake of fire.
    And if i dont warn you of this…………………then i am held accountable. YES………………..ITS TIME TO GET Serious
    SIN is death……………………and if they aint warned to come
    OUT …………………………….or WONT come out.
    THEN let them GO. THESE CHURCHES are in MASSIVE ERROR. LOOK around………………………..mass of churches bieng
    LED straight into a Sensual False LOVE new age anti christ religoin
    THAT has NO fear for the lost……………….NO Fear
    of them ending up in eternal fire…………….
    MANY no longer expecting a SOON return of CHRIST
    and no marvel………………….this was exactly HOW the last days were to truly BE……………………….

  188. AMEN ROGER……………………
    warn all that you can…………………
    FOR the END draws nigh. Signs are EVERYWHERE…………
    FOR THOSE who have their hearts and eyes above………..
    THE SIGNS are VERY PLAIN…………….
    THESE BE THE LAST DAYS frineds…………..
    and these churches are an abomination.
    I say this NOT to condemn, but to WARN.
    COME TO CHRIST and HEAR HIS WORDS.
    THEY are IN THE BIBLE…………….and as MISS bridgewater said………….I DO highly recommend the KING JAMES.
    oh , i have read other versions……………..and i have FOUND
    outright lies. a blending . Can i say this and sleep well.
    YOU bet………………..I have by GRACE……………..YES
    by Grace read the word with a GREAT love of the Truth.
    False sensual love is DEATH.
    WANT TO KNOW IF YOU LOVE……………
    SEEK JESUS and LIVE and TALK as HE DID………….
    FOR HE IS LOVE…………….and LOVE WARNS
    look at the gosples………………HOW OFTEN
    he warned of HELLFIRE………………..
    HOW OFTEN he warned WHy do you call me LORD
    and do not what i say……………
    Many dont want to read the sermon on the mount
    because truth is they DONT LIKE be reminded
    of how OFF course this sensual false love of the world and churches really is. BECAUSE TRUE LOVE requires
    we get up and DO SOMETHING , warn men to repent and COME to CHRIST……………..and with TRUE LOVE
    comes persecutions etc………………….and the naturla man
    wants nothing to do with that.
    NEVERTHELESS…………………..I am going to warn
    and pray GOD give the increase. amen.

  189. For Miss Bridgewater and others making their comments
    First part of my deliberations
    May I share with you all the deliberations which need to be answered.
    There are five passages of Scripture that affirm gay people and their relationships.
    These stories, which the writers of the Bible included under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, are amazingly gay-positive. Odds are, you have never heard about these passages and their meaning for sexual minorities. The truth of these texts threatens some of our society’s deepest prejudices, and their positive messages are usually ignored. It is hoped they will bring comfort and refreshment to many.
    Given how often some Christians preach against homosexuality, one would think there must be hundreds of Scriptures on the subject. In fact, there are only six traditional (negative) passages, and none of them speaks to the situation of twenty-first century gay people who desire to live in loving relationships with the blessing of God. On this web site, we carefully walk through each of these passages and document what they do and don’t say.
    Prejudice can influence how we read the Bible — An example from the recent past.
    In The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, young Huck’s father is thought to be dead, and a woman named Widow Douglas takes him in. Widow Douglas is portrayed as a kindly Christian who takes care of Huck out of goodness, with no thought of reimbursement. The Widow Douglas tries to “civilize” Huck, teaching him Bible stories and urging him to live a good life and pray often. She is a loving woman who studies her Bible and wants to always do the right thing. She is also a slave owner.
    Later in the story, Huck runs away and happens upon Jim, a slave belonging to Widow Douglas’s sister, Miss Watson. The sister had intended to sell Jim to a trader in New Orleans. So, fearing he would never see his wife and children again, Jim runs away. He plans to escape to freedom, make some money, and buy his wife and children out of slavery. Huck and Jim’s adventures as they travel together down the Mississippi make up the rest of the book.
    At every turn, Huck finds himself feeling guilty for ��stealing” Miss Watson’s “property.” He believes he will go to hell for helping Jim escape, and it is clear his Christian education under Widow Douglas is part of the reason he believes this. For all her kindness and goodness, Widow Douglas reads the Bible the same way most of her friends do. She believes slavery is an institution approved by God. She probably believes all African Americans are descended from Ham and the curse recorded in Genesis 9:25-27 demonstrates why they deserve slavery. She sees nothing wrong with buying and selling people because her interpretation of the Bible tells her this is the proper role of those of European descent. In short, she allows her prejudices to mold the way she reads the Bible.
    This may seem like an extreme example. Only the most bigoted Christian would argue today that the Bible endorses slavery or that Genesis 9:25-27 is a curse against Africans. But Huck’s story illustrates how thoroughly we are creatures of our culture and how that culture can create prejudices that get in the way of what God wants to teach us.
    This should challenge some of the deepest prejudices of our culture, prejudices that even gay people have often internalized. Please look at Scriptures that dispute some of our most deeply held beliefs, and we must be willing to let God move. In the end, our response will decide if our prejudices mold the Bible, or if we are willing to let the Bible mold us.
    The good news at the end of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is that Miss Watson, who always felt guilty for almost selling Jim, freed him in her will. Perhaps she was able to read the Bible with a fresh perspective. Perhaps she listened to the tugging of God’s Spirit on her soul. Whatever the cause, she and Jim were both finally free.
    Kindly try to set aside any prejudices you may have about the subject. Listen to the Spirit of God speaking through these Scriptures. And perhaps you, like Miss Watson and Jim, will be freed.
    Jesus affirmed a gay couple. See Matthew 8:5-13
    The Greek word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

  190. Andrew Mar 6th 2013

    Enquirer – you are not correct about the term ‘pais’. Here are the facts-
    “Often, pais is used as a male slave child, sexual or non-sexual.
    Or female slave, or son, or daughter. It is used in prophesy of Christ as Son of God.”

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  191. Andrew Mar 6th 2013

    And both OT and NT are very clear that homosexuality is an “abomination” to God.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  192. watchful Mar 6th 2013

    The scripture says about itself that it is like a mirror which we look in to see ourselves, to see how far we have strayed from the plumbline of God’s holiness. How deceived and how unwise if we tamper with that mirror to try and make it show what WE want it to show, and not what is actually there in truth, all because if we are honest with ourselves it’s because we cherish our sin more than the truth. If we really love God we want to be found pleasing to Him, but if we love not the truth then we are only pleasing our sinful selves and feeding on the ashes of delusion. If we love our life in this world, we will lose it, Jesus said. But if we would follow Him, we must take up our cross and deny ourselves. It is a trade-off and Jesus said for us to count the cost, we trade our life in this world in order to gain ETERNAL life. There is no discrimination in the truth, it applies equally to absolutely everybody.

    In reading this passage of scripture after seeing the links that were given, and all the rationalizing going on to try and wiggle out of the plain & simple truth, I realized that not only is this talking about THESE days, but about THIS very situation, so lets not flinch to look into this mirror in hopes that the truth might set us free and cause us to see our need of the Saviour:

    2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

    2Th 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

    2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.