A.W. TOZER PROPHECY – From 50 Years Ago

“Let me go out on a limb a little bit and prophesy. I see the time coming when all the holy men whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit will desert worldly Evangelicalism, one by one. The house will be left desolate and there will not be a man of God, a man in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, left among them…

I hear Jesus saying…Mat 23:37-38: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the
one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her,
how often would I have gathered your children together, even as
a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not!
Behold, your house is left to you desolate”

As the Church now stands, the man who sees this condition of
worldly evangelicalism is written off as somewhat fanatical. But
the day is coming when the house will be left desolate and there
will not be a man of God among them. I would like to live long
enough to watch this develop and see how things turn out. I would
like to live to see the time when the men and woman of God – holy,
separated and spiritually enlightened – walk out of the evangelical
church and form a group of their own; when they get off the sinking
ship and let her go down in the brackish and worldliness and form
a new ark to ride out the storm.”

-Source- www.sermonindex.net

Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on October 30th, 2013 at 9:55 am.


238 Replies

  1. yes it happening and the new ark is…the house church.


  2. Johan Laubser Oct 30th 2013

    Amen Larry!

  3. watchful Oct 30th 2013

    The glory has departed. The ark we are building is first of all personal, we must recognize our own need of an ark and build it for our own self first, be ensconced safely inside (Christ) and then we will be ready to help others climb aboard. Otherwise it seems to me that we will just repeat the same old mistakes.

  4. Lori T Oct 30th 2013

    We are seeing it … praise the LORD! \O/

  5. I remember my father in law, a retired Assembly of God minister saying that the rapture would happen and the churches would be full. I used to wonder how that could happen-NOW I know! He was soo right. He is with the Lord now but what a wise man he was. They could see where we were headed.

  6. Gordon Neil Oct 30th 2013

    Good Morning, ….I know everyone likes to stay connected. There will come a day ……of danger or cut-off. Some false prophet, some world administrator will decide what is right and what isn’t. ‘Will I find any faith when I return?’ The Banks?
    The Few …………what does that tell us? A Dream: A Shaking is coming like you have never ever known before here to the United States: From the Texas Panhandle west of north and side line …going West from the line there will be destruction Big Time ……….a shaking going on! It is coming! So, Repent, stay prayed up, ask God’s protection …….get real …honest before God about your thought life!
    Doesn’t Jesus ever say anything good! Oh, Yes ……….singing, “Oh, how He loves me and you.” I ask God’s will for me and my house …………Oh, Yes! Not Mine!

    Want to write me personally: [email protected]
    Liz 48 writes from God’s heart, His words of Truth come forth through her. Listen carefully if she comments. And Test! Always!

  7. Deirdre Helms Oct 30th 2013

    See, as long as we have people counting on some kind of Rapture (NOT in scripture)…Not supported by the Law of First Mention….(God always protected his own in the MIDDLE of trouble….not whisked them away)….we have no business evangelizing…….we have nothing to say……..our churches are filled with greed, greed…did I say greed …and then of course there is the fact that our churches are full of wife and child beaters…adulterers….even flat out predators…….. WE HAVE NOTHING to evangelize…we are a laughing stock in the US…The so called Christian Right (nothing Christian about them) are making the white church in the US look like rich greedy selfish self lovers………….its ridiculous

  8. Deirdre Helms Oct 30th 2013

    I love your statement Larry “The church has left the bldg.”…Of course you have prob seen that controlling men and women know how to move from a church to a house and control even more……same sickness different bldg.//

    I believe we are in a time of COMPLETE Apostasy….we need to stand up in the Spirit against the Christian Right…….its appaling what they are doing under the guidance of false teachers, prophets and even a false god (they think is God)…while the other half of the “Christian” right (senators) are known widely as drunks, alcoholics who go in session under the influence of alcohol//// …there are several false leaders (HANNITY is the worse…)

  9. Stuart Perkins Oct 30th 2013

    Most of us on this list have already seen this happen. I have not darkened the door of an organized church in years. The last few I have split apart while I was there or otherwise disintegrated around me. The organized church is in its last throes of death. The “great apostatcy” is upon us, and we are truly on the brink.

  10. I guess we won’t be singing “Kumbaya” anytime soon.

  11. This has been going on for years. It is the fulfillment of prophecy: Jeremiah 31:6 (NKJV) For there shall be a day When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, ‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To the LORD our God.’ ”

    Watch this video about what is going on: http://youtu.be/qpwwHXqG0c8

  12. The tide is turning and the winds of change are blowing strong with upheaval and a falling away upon us.The shaking and sifting is in process and will intensify. Those not grounded and cemented in Jesus The Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, will fall away. The pressure from a secularized world system will be too much. Those who remain steadfast in True faith will be called extremists, fanatics and insane. We will be rejected even by the so called church (of the world not the Kingdom), ostracized, criticized and persecuted. In the end, there will only be a remnant. God help me, that I may among them.

  13. Paul Crier Oct 30th 2013

    I would tend to agree on the whole Larry. However the are signs that the House Church is susceptible to worldliness, compromise and error. It always has been and always will be a remnant.

  14. Paul Crier Oct 30th 2013

    I mean a remnant that stays true to God and His Word and live a Sanctified life

  15. I believe this time has already come….I, and many others, are battling to find a church body that matches the deeper understanding of grace we are receiving from our Lord. So our church has become our ‘downloads off internet’, gained revelation from the Word and books, conversations with like-minded believers, enjoying the joys and detail of nature, incidental conversations with strangers, special family time…..etc etc. All packaged in a parcel called prayer; and ultimately letting it all “hang out” with our Heavenly Dad! We are living in the Promised Land…(or the Garden of Eden if you like). His grace reigns down…..

  16. To me this quote also means that it is not a exodus to nothing, it is a leaving out of evangelicalism to God’s new thing which looks like the Book of Acts and has a sense of the biblical genuineness of godly movements of the past in Christianity. God has always had a remnant.

  17. pdxanna Oct 30th 2013

    Nutshell: we left the “prophetic” megachurch and all the craziness of that whole movement. My hubby decided to go to our neighborhood Anglican church. I resisted it — for all the reasons I read here today. But I have to tell you, in the last 8 years there, I have been humbled and encouraged at what the Lord is doing in this corner of His church. It’s a different “camp” of God’s people that I was totally unaware of. Granted, there are thousands of worldly Anglican churches, but as usual, the Lord has many who have not “bowed the knee to Baal.” Evangelical Anglicans from around the globe met last week in Nairobi and if you have 6 minutes, it’s worth hearing their declaration of faith and resolve to follow the gospel: gafcon.org

  18. 100% Zululander Oct 30th 2013

    Well said pdxanna. there are many wonderful churches & a lot where one would’nt expect to find them.
    Any gathering without proper leadership is not a church.
    I love AW Tozer, he never misses it.

  19. My wife and I(apostle and prophet) were called out of the “abominations of denominations”in 1980.(33 years ago)For 5 years,God prepared us to remove all soulish emotion,such as anger and replace it with His righteous indignation, to send us to the denominations with a beautiful message of high praise and worship at communion,unity of the brethren and one accord which was rejected by all as He told us they would .This was followed by a prophetic ICHABOD written message specific to each abomination.We went to over 20 dead houses.In the process we were pushed and shoved,spit at,cursed,and even arrested.It was a call to the remnant to come out(.2Cor.6:17)Most of this was done in 85-86 but it continues to the present.He has left them over to themselves and we have seen them get worse and also seen individual and a few corporate judgments.Sadly,some of the remnant still remain but He calls.It is not just a sinking ship but a stinking sinking ship and much death of the Ananias and Sapphira type looms and has already begun.AW Tozer saw it and many others.We had to walk it and still do but we are seeing others waking.In the eighties it was sad and lonely.Many of the comments are too soft.The severity of God(Rom 11:22)is about to be seen as this mess comes down and a refined remnant comes forth,His mighty army.It has always been only a remnant and look at the size of them in the past,compared to the whole.Amen

  20. I heard many years ago that the Laodocean age would be the call to the individual…”Behold I stand at the door and knock….” He is looking for anyone who will respond to His call. There may not be many….We must individually take responsibility for our walks with God, and live lives of obedience and holiness. I have been enjoying Torben Sondergaard for some months now and love the way he has simplified so much. I am struck by how the Word states in many ways, that many people will be rudely awakened at heaven’s door and for them it will be too late. “We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies…..Jer.51:9 It doesn’t matter if we are in a house church or a big church, if we are not obedient and walking with God, we will not be His people.

  21. Jessop Oct 30th 2013

    There is much said about out-of-church meetings these days, known as home churching where there is much judging of tradtional churches but little evangelism carried out. In the meantime the mainstream churches which have almost completed the Great Commission are still out there doing what the Church is meant to do. So I don’t think the Tozer prophesy is being fulfilled.

  22. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    Out of church “alone” is not the answer, Jessop.

    Nor is House Church if the people are still basically lukewarm.

    I don’t think this was what Tozer was talking about.

    He was talking about a truly new (or old) SPIRIT-FILLED Christianity.

    Coming in to that.


    -Andrew Strom

  23. Yes! Val

    With regard to “the falling away”, and if read in context, Revelation 18:1-20, Jeremiah 51:1-10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 all appear to be in view of the same scenario.

    Revelation18:4 – And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Jeremiah51:1-2 – Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against BABYLON, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; 2 And will send unto Babylon FANNERS, that shall fan her, and SHALL EMPTY HER LAND: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about.

    2 Thessalonians2:1-3 – Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

  24. LoJo Dup Oct 30th 2013

    Excellent Godly Prophesy. The understanding comment, a bunch of division creating herresy. If you don’t walk by the Spirit, don’t coment on the things of the Spirit. It’s interesting that all the rebellious bunch that cant have it “Their Way” in the church, now all of a sudden want to see the church die out so their so called home churches can be establish. How many people in your home churches has come to The Lord through evangelism, not recruited by spreading deception in churches. Wake up,who is your father. A kingdom divided……..
    Do you think for one moment God will send the whole church to hell, and the handful of division creators will inherit the Kingdom.
    Get over your past, go back to your local church, repent and work together as a body and then read the prophesies through the heart of God. Shalom

  25. Mimi MacDonald Oct 30th 2013

    If I may be permitted to equate Evangelicalism with Dispensationalism, then absolutely, it has quenched the fire of the word of God and evidence of the life of God in
    the congregations. The bible simply does not ‘speak’
    their teachings. They have changed the gospel to
    forgiveness only, so that the transformation from the Adam nature to ‘Christ in you, the hope of glory’ has not even been considered as vital. Perpetual spiritual babies do not emit the light of Christ. To sit in churches unchanged for 30 years is a sign of spiritual deadness. Tozer was such a wise and beautiful man of God. No ‘stars’ of Evangelicalism remotely bear his wisdom and spiritual clarity.

  26. Ken Mason Oct 30th 2013

    I’ve always felt that Tozer was a man way ahead of his time…and have the strongest conviction that he is totally correct in this statement. Like Tozer….I have been seeing this horror scenario coming, and developing for quite some time…This seperation that Tozer talks of…is one not arranged or engineered in any way, by the hands of men….but the desperate longing of the’earnest of the spirit’, that seperates a remnant….from the larger body of believers…..who themselves, have departed from the place where they should have remained.

    yes…they still remain in a building made with hands. But like some of the commenters here, I also have the aweful conviction that the Glory of God….has lifted and departed from the same. A visible ‘remnant’….as opposed to a spiritual remnant….for the two, will never again be one and the same.

  27. Amen to that Andrew, Love you, Andrew… 🙂

  28. Averyl Oct 30th 2013

    Why am I not able to post?

  29. Averyl Oct 30th 2013

    Well, that worked but was trying to post a website about the organic church by Gene Edwards!

  30. It doesn’t need a latter-day prophet. Jesus said, when I return will I find faith on the earth? Paul at least thrice spoke of apostacy. 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3-4
    Dinkum Downunderwriter David

  31. It is time to stop the greed in our pulpits and cry out to the Lord for revival. Check out this book exposing the lies of tithing and greed in our pulpits:https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/359816

  32. Nellie Oct 30th 2013

    I feel the need to put a wrinkle into this debate.
    I find this interesting that every Christian (those who call themselves such) will always believe they are the remnant. Yet, we have so many denominations and translations of the Bible, it is obvious not all will be “right.”
    It is so easy to look in the other camp and claim they are missing out, with new doctrines seem to give birth to new babies frequently.
    I watched an episode of the John Ankerberg Show and he had on several scholars defending KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, and I think ESV that their version of the Bible is true. Even THEY could not come in agreement and yet, isn’t the Holy Spirit the guide to all truth?
    These are the days of Lot, with the doctrine and error of Balaam written on the walls of some churches. Yet, we need to find all facets of His Truth to withstand the oncoming flood.
    2 Corinthian 13:5, 14
    Jeremiah 6:16, 9:24-25

  33. I think that there are no absolutes and saying one thing is dead and making way for another specific thing, is doing the same thing all over again. We have to get rid of the smell of sweat in the church, we have to end every man made system of worship and serving God, and we have to wait upon and rest in The Spirit until He leads us to where He needs each one of us to be, each place will be different and the day of cloning Christians will end. We will understand freedom and live free, Grace will be absolute and not conditional as it is today.

    Many of us have become totally dissatisfied with the world that inhabits the church and we can no longer enter a service without feeling physically ill, and this is the beginning of the birth pains that will usher in the end of the church as we have known it and usher in a new bride, not Protestant or Catholic, but Christian, based on what Jesus left behind, His Spirit and not based on man’s interpretations that have brought division, greed and a bad odour into the church, do away with secular government in the church, do away with secular controlling leadership and false interpretations of historical writings that have been forced upon us for 1700 years and return to the true faith, return to the Spirit and be led by Him and not by man.

    Facebook: Spiritwind
    Twitter: Sprtwind
    Amazon: Radical Grace by mike southwood

  34. wow.

  35. Tozer was a good man and was a tool to bring forth a very real prophecy. We know that the prophet Balaam (Bilaam in Hebrew) was also a true prophet who spoke a powerful prophesy over Israel. However he was condemned by the Lord as he encouraged in deceit, the children of Israel to desert their God and not walk in His Fullness.The spirit of Baalam is until this day regarded as the enemy of Israel.

    Tozer had a gift, but the gifts do not make you part of the Body of the Lord. It is your fruits that show if He is your head. If you are part of the True Vine, you will show forth fruits in your life of the True Vine. Without hesitation, what is not of the True Vine should be disregarded and thrown into the fire by all those who Honor the Lord as their Head.

    Tozer took a “on the fence” position on the Gift of Tongues, and we have a people today who are weak and overwhelmed by the world, who think they are of the Lord and are “saved.” If Paul told us that Tongues edify (make strong) the believer and Jude tells us that it is necessary for a person to be built up in faith, any person who discourages either directly or indirectly what the Lord has elevated and given to His Body for their strength in Him, is a thief and a liar. It seeks to destroy the Body of the Lord like those who in stealth crept into the assemblies of the believers (described in Jude) and gradually caused them to fall away from the Lord.

    John 10:10 tells us the satan comes to kill, steal and destroy. Let us test every spirit – 1John 4, and have the Lord’s Heart and Wisdom in judging who honors Him and who does not – Matthew 7: 15-23.

    Miracles, gifts of wisdom or knowledge or great delivery in speech or writing are gifts given to men, and can be manifested by those who do not honor the Lord – e.g. the magicians in pharoah’s palace when Moses when before pharoah. Just because a person produces scripture and sounds spiritual does not mean he or she is of the Lord.

    Tozer is not my brother. My family in the Lord are those who do the Will of Father.

  36. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    Mike – interesting.

    Yes – as soon as we “pridefully” look down our nose at some denomination or other, God sweeps in and starts to work there!

    It has happened – quite a lot!


    Andrew Strom

  37. Angie I love your summary of the church outside the camp. It is so true everywhere how believers are managing.

    Watchful -excellent statement about how careful we must build too.

    Deidre Helms -Yes controlling men/women attempt to disrupt in house churches too -sometimes more.

    There are inherent problems in every system of religious expression. Fundamentalism is often fraught with a legalism unintended by God and unsupported by Scripture. The Reformed churches have given us, among other things, “Liberation Theology” – a “social gospel” that bears little resemblance to the dynamic of true Christianity. These have sprung up to a large extent because orthodox Christianity has been content for centuries to cling to a dead and ritualistic formalism that denies the power of godliness.

    In short, every discipline within the Church has allowed deception to enter in. Unless church people test all teachings by the Word of God and recognize that experience must be secondary to truth, deception has an open door in them.

    God tells us to come out of Babylon as we can’t compromise or do a deal with Babylon. 2Cor 6:17. Cyrus, a market place man, neither a Christian nor a Jew, delivered the Israelites from Babylon – I see this as a shadow of us coming out of our current day Babylonian church captivity or whatever Babylon represents against the work of God and His word.

    We come first out of the world system (Egypt) then out of the
    religious system of man (Babylon) and reside in the palm of God’s hand. He is well able to sustain and look after us in His Hands.
    So we operate our lives from this place of His Keeping and extend
    His love through us, to all who grace our doorstep. No striving or force is needed to ‘do’ God’s work if we concentrate on the ‘being’
    and the ‘obeying’ part of our faith in His word and in Him.

    We do not need expensive man driven and man run organisations to evangelise people, whether church based or para-church based. I have watched career/personal agenda driven leaders even in worthwhile para-church ministries –God tests the heart.

    We are told to disciple our converts –that is a wise statement
    because who would want our converts to enter into these churches in deception anyway and be spoon fed a false gospel or fed with the traditions of man.

    But whether we see the visible church doing right or not, we can and we must continue His work as Jesus modelled. God is not into big numbers to get His work done in the world. The Bible shows that clearly. So wherever our world may be, let us be available to Him, operating out of His love.

    There will be ones who will knock on the church doors of the religious systems of man, to free its inmates for Him, but the rest of us can leave them behind and reside in His hand, and just get on with the job at hand. No looking back like Lot’s wife anymore.

  38. Gordon Neil Oct 30th 2013

    Earlier I posted a Dream I had in or about the early ’90’s. I Saw a Shaking going on, the ground all around as far as I could see West from the Western edge of the Texas Panhandle.

    This has come to me …I Journal before the Lord: Jesus knew that the disciples had troubles! What kind of troubles? The troubles of Understanding …one of the Seven Spirits before the Throne of God led by the Holy Spirit. So, Jesus, the one we are to follow, spoke in a Bridging Language so as to invite them to the Understanding of what He was talking about as they could ….ears to hear! Also, He gave us a lesson about Christians today and yesteryear not being able to hear, to know the Truth. The only Way is to Walk Daily with the Helper and Comforter and Teacher …the Holy Spirit of the Romans 8 Church …a Church after Father God own Heart.

    We are to walk by faith and not by sight; however, Jesus Baptism is about seeing and hearing in the Spirit …no doubled mindedness and distracted by the many gods of addictions, etc. The Spirit tells If we are born again and If we receive the Power of God to defeat in enemy, we children do grow up mature so as the win our fight, our race, our Liberty forever.

    Remember, the Disciples that healed, cast out demons did so by faith; by obedience; not Baptized by Jesus …in Power by the Holy Spirit.

    So, in the Days of Noah, the minds of men and women, the animals were all corrupted except a Few. In Bridging Language…..”The Remnant is like a piece of carpet, set apart, those that came out from among them so to speak, …………that do not fit; do not have a place as the World Turns, Christian Churches-As-Usual or not!”

    We are living in a corrupted, coming to a close, time 7 days before The Door is shut by God.

    Methuselah (“he dies and it (the flood) is sent”; man of the dart – spear) and the last 7 days represents the time of Noah before The Door was/is shut! Nothing new under the sun! So, God warns, He commands and He doesn’t surprise the Remnant …..His own!

    Thanks Andrew

  39. I have often scratched my head and wondered why the blind Church no long teaches the saving gospel, and why the blind bible colleges do not teach evangelism. I see all sorts of gospels preached, the gospel of good works in particular, where smiling church people hand out food parcels but do not warn the recipients about hell or how to be saved – why smile and pretend to be their friend while keeping their eternal suffering a big secret? I have asked God and complained to Him about why this is so, why the church does next to nothing to help people become eternally saved, why they do not teach the saving gospel within church walls let alone outside of it, and why they busy themselves doing everything apart from helping people be saved. The answer I believe is simple, Satan does not want the saving gospel taught and is most frightened of it. Satan has lied and the church, in the west anyway, has believed his lie. So now in NZ we have a church that is deceived, tame, and dispowered; all so that Satan need not fear what it does. So who is happy about the state of the NZ church, Satan or God? You tell me!

    We can complain and whine to each other and God about this, or we can do something about it. I have decided to do the latter so I started preaching the saving gospel to people on the street and I have seen a good harvest. I got sick of waiting for the church to come to its senses and read and understand what scripture plainly says – what are you going to do, whine or act? I am an introvert so if I can do it then so can you, but I tell you this, I discovered that by the power of God I became an extrovert when teaching the gospel but this change occurred after I started teaching the gospel. Time for you to decide?

  40. Hi John -well spoken

    As I said in my response -forget the visible church heading into apostasy, let us just get on with the job ourselves as God leads us and be bold and courageous. Only two inherited the Promised Land in the end and their pathway was ‘no walk in the park’ when they entered it. That’s why God laboured on the ‘be bold and courageous bit’. God will only be concerned with us as we enter his Dwelling Place, not the other guys/gals. What did we do or not do with the knowledge we had. I have been out there ‘doing it’ outside the church for nearly 25 years and with great God success. Even had the courage to speak to Moslems and Hindu gurus in India -a few aggressions now and then -but nothing compared to what the Apostles endured for the Gospel. Go for gold John in NZ. I will pray for you in your going out.

  41. Inspired Oct 30th 2013

    Tozer prophesies,
    how often would I have gathered your children together, even as
    a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not!
    Behold, your house is left to you desolate”

    I see much in this passage alone.
    How OFTEN, would I/Yeshua, have gathered your children/thoughts together even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings/pinions and thus opinions, but you would not. (1st Kings 18:21)/how long will ye halt between your two opinions/wings? If the Lord be God then follow Him, but if baal, then follow him. we have the right wings and the left wings, but no one wants the full bird, and so their house is left desolate, because of indecision. However being left desolate is not a bad, for if one finds their life, they shall lose it but if one loses their life they shall find it.

  42. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    The key focus of A.W. Tozer’s word is not “Leaving the Structures”.


    Leaving is easy.

    The other is not common at all.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  43. Inspired Oct 30th 2013

    If the other is not a common thing, then what is wrong with opting out and leaving? Many who have done this find a other places to fellowship, such as this website, and be living stones instead of bricks.

  44. Andrew Oct 30th 2013

    This is not true “fellowship”, my friend. We do not even know the “real people” on here at all.

    If that is all we have, it is a sad day indeed

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  45. The structure is not the issue. True worship can be accomplished within a building, with regular meetings, with leaders who guide the meetings.
    The problem is the SYSTEM.
    God has said, “they do not worship me, they worship their system.”
    This is the problem.
    It all comes down to a heart issue.

  46. Gordon Neil Oct 31st 2013

    John ……that’s right, Satan doesn’t want anyone of us to go through Basic Training so as to get the Board out of our own eye FIRST. The Church-As-Usual steals the seeds of Truth from the many. Once saved always saved ………..doesn’t warn the new comers about the responsibility, the giving of all, about ‘no turning back’ Covenant – God’s Blood.

    God said He was sorry for ever making man. So, He made amends. How many folks do you know that confess they wrongs and make amends not so to hard another and that includes the confessor first. Jesus Christ is God’s amends.

  47. Gordon said…”Once saved always saved ………..doesn’t warn the new comers about the responsibility, the giving of all, about ‘no turning back’ Covenant – God’s Blood.

    God gave me a great revelation of the New Covenant.
    I received some junk mail, one item was an offer for a credit card. It promised 1.9% interest. Of course there was much more to the agreement. God showed me that this is what many have done with the New Covenant. They have taken the part they liked and ignored the rest of the contract.
    A covenant is a contract. We must meet all the clauses in the entire contract, not just take what we want out of it.
    Many will be disappointed when they stand before the judge, attempting to claim the 1 clause they chose to believe in, only to hear, “I never knew you.”
    As in any contract, The New Covenant is an agreement between God and man. God has done His part, paying the entire debt with the blood of Jesus.
    Now it is our responsibility to obey ALL of the Word of the New Covenant.

  48. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    “The structure is not the issue. True worship can be accomplished within a building, with regular meetings, with leaders who guide the meetings.”

    I wish others could see this, Donald.

    That the Structure is not the thing that fuels change. Rather it is the “HEART” and the OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT that truly revolutionizes everything.

    Structure is “easy”.

    Heart transformation? – A different story.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  49. watchful Oct 31st 2013

    Sorry to differ somewhat, but if the “structure” doesn’t allow for the diverse gifts and parts to exercise their senses and gifts then the Body doesn’t get built up, including the “leaders”. I don’t disagree about the heart being the ultimate reason behind the unspiritual structures though.

    It’s a blessing to hear the God-breathed voices on here, makes me feel refreshed. Lord bless, and love to all of you.

  50. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I’ve been involved with many different “structures”.

    They made almost no difference whatsoever.

    That is not the thing that changes people.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  51. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    The structure is simply a symptom of the inner problem. It is man’s desire to control and do things in his own strength. The moment we come back to total submission to the headship of Christ and dependency upon the Holy Spirit (not only for doing, but simply living and being) that is when you will watch the false leadership structure, man’s methods, and trust in ourselves come crashing down. These things are problems (man-made leaders, rote services, and church divisions) because we have put total trust and confidence in the flesh, and therefore we have left the fountain of living waters, God and His Spirit.

  52. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    Yes – we need ANOINTED leadership.

    Makes all the difference in the world

    Bless you!


  53. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    I think you misunderstand me Andrew, anointed leadership has little to nothing to do with it. Jeremiah said, “Cursed is the man who trusts in man, who makes flesh his strength” (Jer. 17:5). Period. Jesus told us that we are to not to be called leaders (Matt 23:10 NASB), but are instead to be servants. We need less ‘anointed’ leaders and more servants of Christ. That we are seeking leaders shows that our dependency is not upon THE leader, Christ. Christ leads through His Holy Spirit, for those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

  54. So we pray Lord that You would raise up Your leaders – those who You know that You have appointed in this in history to lead Your Body – raise them up Lord and let them stand for You…

  55. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    Daniel – that is like saying the early church did not need the apostles.

    Clearly Jesus saw the need to have good shepherds for his sheep.

    Otherwise there would be no “5 fold ministry” established in the Bible.

    Blessings to you,

    Andrew Strom

  56. People will interrupt their busy days to stop and marvel at a beautiful sunset or a bright rainbow. They are drawn to the tranquility of a garden or the majesty of a panoramic view. Oh that Christians could create the conditions where our worship was so pure that none believers would be drawn into the presence of One infinetly more beautiful than a view or a sunset. Instead of presuming to be ‘part of a blessed remnant’ lets remain in the local churches, and use our prayers and influence for the greater good.

  57. Inspired Oct 31st 2013

    I agree with Daniel and do not feel condemned that I do not attend.

  58. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    My point Andrew is that there were no leaders in the early ekklesia, only servants of Christ and then of His people. Jesus Himself set the example of being a servant to his disciples (the apostles). They were sent messengers (apostles) of Christ who showed the way to follow Him. Their call was, “Follow me as I follow Christ”. If they had become little heads they would have been acting in contradiction to the words of Jesus, “…the gentile’s great one’s excercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But if anyone wants to be great among you must be your servant”. The apostles wished to teach others who Christ was and how to be led by Him together (as a body), they had no use is trying to lead them, otherwise the people would stay perpetual babes (as they do in today’s church). Instead they took the older (elders) and gave them oversight of God’s flock to look out for them not as heads of the people to exercise authority over Christ’s ekklesia. They knew that only Christ was to be their head, otherwise they would never grow up. The apostles, like Paul and Apollos, were nothing of themselves, they simply watered and planted seed, it was God who brought the increase. We all must come to the place where we depend on Christ through the Spirit as our head and leader. We do not do this alone, but together. The five fold simply are given to help the body grow up into the head, even Christ.

  59. We have two lines of responsibility in the human realm with respect to authority – to those who are over us and to those who are under us…

    All of us have people who the Lord has appointed to watch over us and all of us have people who the Lord has appointed that we watch over…

    It doesn’t matter who we are or even how old we are there will always be people over and under us – this is just the way it is…

    The Father was over Jesus while He was on earth and everyone else was under Jesus…

    Even if we are the closest person to God on earth – like I believe the Apostle Paul was in his time (and the Apostle John after him) he was still surrendered to Jesus as his Head and everyone else in the Church was under him – but what did he do, Paul? He served…

    What did John do? He served…

    So if we are given authority by God to lead it is for the purpose of service – service to His Body – to serve – to come “underneath” and lift them up and show them what we have been shown by the Lord – as our sister Catherine is saying – show them the Beauty that we have seen in the Lord…

    We cannot lead them where we have not gone ourselves in our relationships with the Lord…

    There is no authority given until we are submitted to authority…

    No authority is given in rebellion…

  60. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    The WHOLE GODHEAD is to be worshiped, loved, and obeyed.

    The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit are CO-EQUAL.

    Therefore EACH AND ALL are to be praised, worshiped and loved with ALL of our hearts.

    Some people forget that the Holy Spirit IS GOD.

    The FRUIT are God’s Nature; The GIFTS are God’s Nature. Flowing THROUGH whomever God chooses and WHENEVER God chooses.

    The 5 fold ministries are the MINISTERY OF GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    All the gifts that are mentioned in scripture are describing the different facets of GOD’S SPIRIT.


    These gifts and fruit are HIS NATURE…not “things” that are handed off to individual people who believe.

    Exd 20:2 KJV
    I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    Mar 12:29-30 NKJV
    Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments [is]: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is ONE.

    30 ‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This [is] the first commandment.

    EACH of the 3 persons are to be LOVED, WORSHIPED AND OBEYED AS JEHOVAH….I AM.

  61. Concerning anointed leadership.
    It is the anointing we should pay attention to, not the leader. There have been many anointed leaders who have fallen because man gave the person the attention rather than the message. Leaders are messenger boys, nothing else.

  62. True Daniel, and the Lord knows all of this better than we ever will! Which is why He said to the first disciples, “FOLLOW ME and I will make you fishers of men”.

    There are so many voices speaking today, but the Lord will confirm His true ministers the same way He did in the first century, with signs and wonders following!

    My wife and I are starting a house church ourselves, it’s time to truly get back to Acts and the upper room, with prayer, fasting, meeting together daily, and true repentance, may God be glorified through His remnant people and His bride in these last days!

    For those of you who are interested, here is the link for the meeting this Sunday.


  63. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    I’m sorry Andrew Horton, but that is the secular view of authority. If we are living by reliance and dependency upon Christ (who is the head of every man), then hierarchal human authority is the last thing on our minds. James and John had the same attitude and Jesus dealt with it by contradicting the way that the Gentile’s handle authority (top-down, down-top). He leveled all authority in the church and said we are brothers and sisters, that none are to “excercise authority over” another believer. Do we not get this? Hierarchal leadership makes us trust in human beings instead of God and His Spirit, this is THE issue. The moment we renouce all desire to control God’s people and get out of the way is when the Holy Spirit comes flooding in. It is not those who led by the man of God, who are sons of God. It is the Spirit of God who leads. Why do we struggle with this?

  64. Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.

    We do have leaders established by God. They are anointed for that purpose. If they are put on a pedestal they will fall. This does not mean they were not anointed in the first place.
    They can also begin to think of themselves as being above the rest and climb up on that pedestal themselves.
    Whatever the case, we must follow the anointed Word, not the man.

  65. Daniel said: “They knew that only Christ was to be their head, otherwise they would never grow up. The apostles, like Paul and Apollos, were nothing of themselves, they simply watered and planted seed, it was God who brought the increase. We all must come to the place where we depend on Christ through the Spirit as our head and leader. We do not do this alone, but together. The five fold simply are given to help the body grow up into the head, even Christ.”

    Absolute truth, that’s exactly what Ephesians 4:11-16 tells us!

    “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

  66. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    God the Holy Spirit IS the ANOINTING.

    The anointing is not some “thing” that is given away to individual people.

  67. There is a time though when an apostle or minister of God must exercise the spiritual authority that the Lord has given them to judge matters in the body, like Paul did when he told the saints to expel the immoral brother.

  68. Lightning Storm, God’s Spirit, IS Spirit, not a ‘person’, and that’s all I will say on that one.

  69. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    The biblical model of authority for leaders in the New Testament is called “Eldership”, ‘fathering’ and “shepherding the flock”.

    As a father myself, I know what that means.

    Take away anointed leaders – take away the New Testament church.

    You cannot have one without the other.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  70. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Haha I knew one of those veses would come up sometime Donald. If you read them in a more literal translation you will find it says, “Be mindful of those leading you”. And to save you time Hebrews 13:17 actually should be translated as, “Be persuaded by those who lead you, and yield to them”. My point has been that no one is ever called “leader” in the New Testament, they always are known by their actions. Jesus defined this leading as those who serve in Luke 22:26.

    We are to lead by follow Christ, the one who most relies on Him is the one who leads others, the writer of Hebrews told the ekklesia to imitate their faith. Faith is ultimate trust and reliance upon Jesus through the Spirit. That is leading, being a complete servant of Christ, dependent upon our master and leader. That is something others can follow.

  71. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    Our culture loves to throw away all leadership and authority.

    So too do today’s “post-modern” believers.

    It is called “Rebellion” – something that God hates.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  72. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Yes Andrew, but you are to shepherd the flock that is AMONG you, not under you. You may be fathering in the spirit, but you are not to take the place of the heavenly Father as over God’s sons. You are still a son of God. Paul himself who was a father to the Corinthians reminded them later that “Christ is the head of every man” (1 Cor.11) Elders are simply older men and women who look out for the flock among them, they are not positions of authority. We are never to excercise authority over one another.

  73. Daniel, what is with this “haha” nonsense.
    Are you laughing at me because you think you “caught me” in a misunderstanding of the Word?

  74. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I love that post-moderns are suddenly experts on the ancient Greek text.

    When I am a “father” to my family – that exact application is made for leaders in the CHURCH.

    Argue if you want.

    But until there are anointed “fathers” with authority from God, we will not see the NT church coming back.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  75. Daniel…you say “Be mindful of those leading you”
    rather than “Obey them that have the rule over you”
    So what… I thought we were talking about anointed leadership here. What is your point.

  76. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Andrew it is not a matter of “our culture”. I am not making this up. Jesus challenged the leadership and authority of His day, not me.

    Mark 10:42-45 ESV

    And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
    and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    That is Jesus’ view of authority and leadership, and you can find it in 3 of the gospels. Later when He spoke to the Pharisees He said some quite amazing things.

    Matthew 23:2-12 NASB

    saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    Read it carefully all, that is THE description of modern-day church leadership, and Jesus speaks against it.

  77. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    No no Donald, please don’t think I am laughing at you or mocking you. I was laughing because I always run into these two verses in Hebrews from people. Please do not take it as me being condescending towards you.

  78. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    No-one here is talking about “Lording over” or “exalting” type of leadership. We are talking about simple fathering and shepherding.

    Both of these carry authority under God.

    Throw them out if you wish.

    You will never get NT Christianity back.


    Andrew Strom

  79. 100% Zululander Oct 31st 2013

    Well said andrew. No leaders, no church. Just because there are many bad leaders it doesn’t make leadership unnecessary.
    Every christian has a responsibility to pray for their leaders, love & support them. Their work is not easy.
    We must be humble & anointed to fulfill our responsibility as well, not just them

  80. Daniel… I believe what Andrew said is the key. You cannot relate all leadership with “lording over”. This is not the role of the true spiritual leader. The anointing will make a man humble and lead in Godly, biblical manner.

  81. Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

    This is what happens when there is no established leadership

  82. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I call it “amorphous blob” Christianity.

    Which is why I no longer believe in “Out of church” (lone ranger) believers.

    True ‘Body’ cannot exist without leaders. The NT shows this again and again.


    Andrew Strom

  83. ValleyAnt Oct 31st 2013


    Dale said, “The severity of God (Rom 11:22) is about to be seen as this mess comes down and a refined remnant comes forth, His mighty army.It has always been only a remnant and look at the size of them in the past, compared to the whole. Amen.” Amen. John said in Rev. 1:7, “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” Even so, amen.

    Val said, “It doesn’t matter if we are in a house church or a big church, if we are not obedient and walking with God, we will not be His people.” Last year, the Lord told me to leave one of these ‘prophetic churches’ that constantly ‘hears’ but does not do, deceiving themselves. He said that He will lead me to fellowship with likeminded brethren whom He called “an obedient people” and called affectionately several times, “the Lord’s People”. The location of a church (building or home) matters very little but obedience; if a group of Christians meet right outside the gates of Heaven itself but they don’t walk in obedience, then they are not “the Lord’s People”.

    Mike rightly said, “I think that there are no absolutes and saying one thing is dead and making way for another specific thing, is doing the same thing all over again. We have to get rid of the smell of sweat in the church, we have to end every man made system of worship and serving God, and we have to wait upon and rest in The Spirit until He leads us to where He needs each one of us to be, each place will be different and the day of cloning Christians will end. We will understand freedom and live free, Grace will be absolute and not conditional as it is today.” Amen.

    “How do we do church,” many are asking. “If the building is wrong and the home model is wrong, then how do we do it? What are we supposed to do? How are we to proceed?” A lady once prophesied to me on 6/8/07, “I see you standing at a crossroads, and you are asking God, ‘Which way do I go, Lord? Do I go right, left…?’ When you slow down completely and you stay still before [Him] in His presence, He’s going to tell you exactly where He wants you to go.” In the last article comments, I quoted Jer. 6:16 about God telling us to ‘return’ to the beginning and wait, ask, look until He tells us how to proceed. That passage, again, says, “This is what the Lord says: ‘Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls'” (NIV).

    As fallen, we tend to do A when we should be doing B and to do B when we should be doing A, to rest when we should fight and fight when we should rest (etc.). While we are asking how we should proceed, God is often telling us to ‘return’ and ‘wait’ until He shows us. Angels told the disciples the same thing: when Jesus went up from them and they stood staring into the skies, two angels appeared to them and said to them, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). In other words, “Return to Jerusalem, as you were told, and wait there.” What were they to do instead of standing and staring? They were to do what Jesus told them to do: ‘return’ to and ‘wait’ in Jerusalem until they receive the promise. They did just this: “Then they returned to Jerusalem” (v. 12) and waited until the Spirit came. “Church building or house church? How do we do church?” Church was always meant to be done with one’s life, 24/7. Until this understanding and Grace is imparted to us, we are to ‘return’ and ‘wait’.

  84. Andrew..
    this may be off subject, but what are your thoughts on the “Organic Church” concept?

  85. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    1 Samuel 8:7 NASB

    The LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

    In asking for a human king the people rejected God as their king. Now we have been made a royal priesthood before our God. But if you want a Pastor(king) to rule over you so that you may be like all the other nations, let me explain what you will get:

    They will heap heavy weights upon your backs, they will demand obedience to them over God, they will take the chief seats in your churches, extort you by twisting the word of God and taking 10% of your income, and in the end lead you into idolatry for themselves.

    Jeremiah 5:31 NASB

    The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love it so!
    But what will you do at the end of it?

    This hierarchal authority (being over other believers at all) is rejecting Christ as Lord and Head of His church. Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing, and that He would send the Paraclete to lead us into all truth. You will find nowhere in the word that the church depends upon its leaders, it depends upon Christ and His Spirit. Those who lead are given to help perfect the ekklesia so that it may grow into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

    This idea of “special” leaders invalidates the priesthood of all believers and puts us back under the law. We have one Lord and King, jesus Christ. To have any man over us Andrew who exercises authority over us is the “lording over” type of leadership.

  86. All I can say is AMEN to TOZER! Thank God HE has led many of out of the SHEPHERDING doctrine and into the liberty of CHRIST that Paul so beautifully spoke of in Galations. Paul warned us of the Judaziers that SPY our our liberty. Those of us who were born again in the JESUS movement know what the doctrine of LEADERSHIP and RULING over did to the newly birthed in the SPIRIT believers….they told us that we had to SUBMIT to those who were in authority….to every PROGRAM….every false doctrine…every whim of those who for the most part have been SELECTED through partiality or personal ambition to “lead”. Never mind that they were only building their own little kingdoms and we were the “subjects”. I have spent 38 YEARS of my life listening to this false teaching that we must be RULED OVER….it is the DOCTRINE of the NICOLAITANS that JESUS said that HE hated TWICE in Revelation 2….read it….the word Nicolaitan means “Conqueror over the PEOPLE”….the Roman Catholic church separates the LEADERSHIP from the laity….or people…. and the western churches have become as such. I believe that TOZER in many of his writings expressed the prophetic HEART of GOD……THE SPIRIT of the word….NOT THE LETTER! The debate on leadership is the LETTER versus the SPIRIT! The Holy Spirit is the NEW TESTAMENT leader of the CHURCH….working in and among us all….READ 1 COR 14. The SPIRIT leads….THE SPRIT SPEAKS….we have LOST the leading of the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT in the western church. We have put our faith in human leaders and as a result have stagnated in SPIRITUAL infancy. If you want to exalt anything….let’s exalt CHRIST as the LEADER and the HOLY SPIRIT….as Daniel so powerfully expressed. The only ones who have any ability to lead are the true FOLLOWERS of CHRIST….no matter where they are….the buildings do not make the CHURCH….we are the church. The so called leaders of churches have led us into cohabiting with the WORLD and its system ….the NON PROFIT…and it is rightly named such. Every revival and move of God’s SPIRIT has moved outside the HIERARCHY….and the organized church….because the HOLY SPIRIT took HIS place back as the TRUE LEADER!

  87. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    Actually – I have studied all those Revivals and most of them had strong leaders and preachers.

    Truly ANOINTED ones.

    In fact, without those leaders and preachers there would have been no Revival.

    (Finney, Wesley, Whitefield, Roberts, Booth, Luther, Sung, Goforth, Edwards, etc, etc.)

    Just like God’s leaders in the early church.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  88. God is an amazing Person…

    He demands obedience…

    Did we know that?

    Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees…

    And then He provides the obedience which we need…

    Holy, spotless, separate from sinners, exalted above the heavens…

    He is making these demands on us to show us that we are incapable of completing them…

    These demands are not put on us to make us try harder to complete them they are put on us to bring us to absolute desolation and despair that we can’t keep them…

    That is the purpose – to kill us…

    Once we see that we can’t keep God’s demands then we see that we have a problem – when we see that we have a problem – then we look to God for a solution – we do – our hearts cry out – once awakened by God – for a solution…

    God tells us to submit to Him and live…

    He tells us to submit ourselves to every human institution as unto God…

    Jesus did this…

    Have you ever considered that He submitted Himself to the religious leaders and to Pilate – he submitted Himself to the religious authority of His day and all to the federal authority of His day?

    He did…

    He didn’t pull the “God card” and blow them away…


    Because He was under authority even though He had all authority…

    He didn’t violate the authority which He Himself had set up – even though it was corrupt…

    Why? because He trusted His Father – the One of All Authority – to look after Him…

    And did He?


    He let Him die in humiliation – although He was not humiliated – and then exalted Him to the Highest Place – Above Every Name which has ever been Named and gave Him – Jesus – All Authority in heaven and on earth and then He commissioned us with this Authority to take His message to the ends of the earth…

    This is the God we serve – this is the example we have – die and receive authority – submit and receive authority…

    “But they’re so evil”, you might say…

    Did this effect Jesus?

    Did Jesus say to the Father, “but they’re so evil”?

    No, He did not…

    He bowed His Head – the One of all authority – and said, “You could do nothing to Me unless it had been given to you from Above” – this is a picture of a man under Authority and this is the kind of man which I want to be…

  89. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    I agree Andrew, God uses people to lead the way in birthing revival, I believe all these were one of the five-fold. Yet many were vessels yielded to the Holy Spirit, they led by example and dependency upon God, not as over other believers (though I am sure some might have, Luther in particular who hated Anabaptists for their freedom). Have you ever heard of Brother Yun? He is a man God has mightily used in the Chinese underground church and the revival that has swept it since the late 70’s. He wrote a book called Living Water, if you can get a copy please do, and read chapter 25 called “A New Wineskin”. It is very good, and it deals with a lot of what we are talking about here.

  90. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Andrew Horton,

    Jesus did not submit to the authority of the Pharisees, He submitted to the authority of government. The Pharisees had NO authority, just as today’s church leaders have no authority over other believers. You will find no scripture to support authority OVER believers, none. Jesus repudiated the Pharisees publicly, a man under their authority? Highly unlikely. He told them they were blind guides, vipers, and white-washed tombs. Yes we submit to God’s authority in government, and marriages, and parents with children. But the authority of the church works like this: submit one to another out of reverence for Christ. Jesus defined how authority worked among His people, He said there was to be no authority over others. No clergy and laity. There is nothing noble is submitting to something that invalidates the Word of God, which the current church does in spades. There comes a time when we say adamantly, “We will obey God rather than man”. Jesus entrusted Himself to His Father, He said, “Not my will, but thy will be done”. That is humility, not this submission to usurpers of God’s true authority. Paul said of such, “We did not submit to them for an hour” (Gal. 2:5)

  91. Robert Donaldson Oct 31st 2013

    That man was a giant amongst men hallelujah Father for your saint Mr Tozer

  92. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    Tyrone…what makes a person a person?

    What is the Holy Spirit LACKING to make HIM not a person?

  93. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    “Lording it over” and ‘anointed leadership’ are 2 different things.

    We need a lot more of the latter

    Blessings to all

    Andrew Strom

  94. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Maybe we’re in more agreement than I understand Andrew. What do you mean by ‘anointed leaders’? Could you give a paragraph explanantion?

  95. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I mean leaders who are truly full of the Holy Spirit – true “5 fold” appointed and anointed to preach, teach and shepherd the flock – not with man’s wisdom, but by God’s Spirit.

    These are not so common today, but unless we get them back I believe we have no chance of seeing NT Christianity return

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  96. Hi Daniel,

    But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.” (Matthew 26:63-64 NASB)

    The excuse is given that “I can’t submit to any leader unless they’re perfect – look at all the sin in their lives (or we even look at any tiny thing which we can “find fault” with to give us an excuse not to submit) – how can God expect me to submit to that?”

    Jesus submitted to the High Priest because God gave that High Priest authority – yes He did (that system was not yet finished) – to adjure Jesus to answer him – and so He, Jesus, did, in submission to authority…

    God has given Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers authority – they may not be perfect (Peter was not perfect) – but He does call us to submit to them once He shows us personally who they are…

    Love you,


  97. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    Post-modern man has utterly lost all sense of “giving honor” where it is due and all sense of God’s view of authority.

    It was all thrown out in the sixties.

    And now many “new fad” Christians are doing it too.

    We are all “democratic egalitarians” and recognize NO-ONE as leaders under God.

    Thus the church is a spiritual pauper.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  98. Francois Marais Oct 31st 2013

    On the email you sent out, at the end of Tozer’s prophecy, tis is stated: “I would like to live to see the time when the men and woman of God – holy, separated and spiritually enlightened – walk out of the evangelical
    church and form a group of their own; when they get off the sinking ship and let her go down in the brackish and worldliness and form a new ark to ride out the storm.”

    It saddens my heart that anyone could have such a ‘I would like to see…’ Father forgive us!

    Regarding the ‘leadership’ debate in the above posts. I praise God for the righteous leadership in my life – they help me stay true and transparent! Also, they quallify me to utter with the centurion, “as a man under authority…”

  99. watchful Oct 31st 2013

    I’m not sure a lack of leaders and submission is the problem with the present day “church”…………I see plenty of leaders and they are revered and submitted to by their followers. And they still are all falling into a ditch.

    “Five-fold ministry” is a false doctrine, it misses the mark……it’s what the natural man has made of one passage of scripture, without taking into account the whole counsel. Because there are lots of five-fold ministries as well, and still that terrible deep ditch.

    Is it really a matter of one or two “solutions”, or is it a matter of God re-building His fallen tabernacle the way He sees fit, and in His own time. We all need to have our minds renewed from all the mixture and fleshly doctrines we picked up in the past which we don’t even realize until God shows us. This takes time. Might take a generation, just like the children of Israel, and happens when we are willing to lay our cherished thoughts on the altar and let Him sift them. The argument could be made that we are taking too long, that we are too slow, yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that it will take as long it takes and that there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about speeding things up as far as I can see, and there is a lot written about patience.

    ……Other than fasting and fervent prayer, which someone mentioned, Inspired, and with me fervency seems to only come when the Spirit lays on me and touches me with the terrible reality of a situation. It seems to be one of those paradoxes, on the one hand God is sovereign and in charge and we rest in that, but at the same time He can bring us to be touched with the feeling of terrible realities and urgencies which make us cry out and plead with Him. Who can fathom? I can’t….sometimes I just give up trying to fathom Him and am just content to observe His wonderful ways!

  100. Claudia Oct 31st 2013

    So, are some of you saying, that mankind is lost unless we can find and follow the right human leaders? Must there always be something inferior inserted between me and YHWH? Is YHWH incapable of communicating and leading HIS sheep without the assistance of a human…all of which have limited understandings until they are transformed? I don’t recall YHWH putting a human leader in the below instruction.

    Psalms 23: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

    I TOTALLY trust in HIS Guidance and Leadership…especially during these times.

  101. The prophesy makes me think of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, and the great news from Lagos, Nigeria. I urge all of you to study http://emmanuel.tv/
    Then maybe you too will think of Daniel 2:44-45
    In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
    This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
    The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.

  102. 100% Zululander Oct 31st 2013

    Reading these posts it’s quite clear we will believe what we want to believe no matter what.
    Watchful….5 fold ministry mans doctrine? The bible itself is 5 fold ministry.
    Gen – Numbers Apostolic books Numbers – Malachi Prophetic. Mat – John Evangelical Acts – Rev Pastor/teacher books.
    Eph 2:20 CHurch built on foundation of Apostles & prophets, OT foundation, Christ the cornerstone.
    The bible is too full of leadership to even begin to discuss here. To deny Godly, appointed, authoritive leadership is to deny a lot of scripture. With respect, it’s actually a ridiculous argument. Forgive me for being so blunt.

  103. Daniel Oct 31st 2013


    I don’t believe you understand the full dynamic of what I am referring to. This is not a result of the 60’s and it far from Post-modern, what I am contending for has been the struggle since the beginning of the ekklesia. Paul warned the older men and women (ones who we call Elders, it is not an office but simply an old person) at Ephesus that there would be those from among their own number who would raise themselves up and draw the flock after themselves (human “leaders”). Then John warned of Diotrephes is his last epistle, saying that he loved the first place (preeminence) and was not receiving the apostle. By the time of Revelation Christ was rebuking churches for adopting the teaching of the Nicolaintans [which as Jane above said means “conqueror of the people (laity)], He said that He despised this doctrine, which I believe was the beginning of the clergy and laity separation. From this point on the ekklesia become more and more solidified and “bishop rule” took over. Finally the church joined hands with the state and it eventually devolved into a tyrannical system over the centuries. Then came the Reformation and much of what happened and changed was superficial, yet the saving-grace was the restoration of the Scriptures to the common people, out of this came the Anabaptists. These people loved the word and decided to follow it fully even if it meant their death, their view of authority was servant-leaders, and they saw Christ alone as their Head (that’s not post-modern talk). For this they were slaughtered by the thousands by the Protestant and Catholic “church” (proving the difference between the two was surface), and if you study history you will always find that when church had the most authority it was the most lethal and dangerous. Out of the Anabaptists came the Moravians, these influenced John Wesley who was friends with George Whitfield. Skipping ahead a few hundred years we come to the great revival in Wales that God started through His instrument Evan Roberts, as we know from accounts Evan would wait until the Spirit would move and not a moment sooner (your idea of anointed leaders) his place was simply opening the door so that God would commune with his people, he let the Spirit speak through him and his prayer to God was “Bend our will!” Across the world was another small group of people meeting together and letting the Lord birth a move of His Spirit among them. This was what eventually came to be known as the Azuza Street Revival. Frank Bartleman recounts how the more human beings got out of the way, the more He was able to move. He boasted in the wonder of completely Spirit-led meetings and said the more man tried to control the more they murdered the movement of the Spirit. He even says that revival ended because man organized and took control of what God was doing. The Pentecostal-Charismatic church came out of such a Spirit-led revival, and therefore much of the gifts you enjoy and function in are because people let Christ be the head of His church. Then came the revivals of the 60’s and 70’s and many did leave the traditional way of “doing church” in fact the freedom of the Spirit came rushing, yet contrary to how you paint it so also came in the Shepherding movement which is very Roman Catholic in its essense and I believe this destroyed the revival. In fact I would say everytime men have reassurted themselves and claimed some authority over God’s people it immediately cuts off the life of God’s Spirit and drives a wedge between the Head and the Body.

    Post-modern church may be a democracy, but the biblical ekklesia is a theocracy, a body with one head, a kingdom with one Lord, a bride with one husband. The ones given to the body to serve (those who lead by following, anointed leaders) are like Paul, jealous for the brides singleness of devotion and love towards Christ, and also like Paul they cry out, “No longer glory in men! For no flesh shall glory in His presence. But let he who glories, glory in the Lord”.

  104. Inspired Oct 31st 2013

    All of this reminds me of the blind man that Yeshua spit, which is a term of disgrace in the eyes of the blind. When the mans eyes were opened, he saw men as trees. Trees of what? Trees of righteousness. Yet in Judges we have a parable of trees wanting to have a leader, and no tree wanted to be their leader, but the bramble bush hearkens and says, if you anoint me and make me king and come and put your trust in my shadow….
    The trees that had something to offer, did not want to rule, or have what they had to offer corrupted. They knew their purpose, was to give, bring joy and sustenance. But not the bramble, it was ready to be king and lead and even shadow out the light of the true life.
    Andrew addressed me above and said we do not know the real people here. I thought on this most of the night, and concluded that I need only to recognize the life speaking through the writings here. The Barry’s, Claudia’s, Watchful’s, Daniel’s, Lightening Storm’s, Valley Ants and many more who I have failed to remember and name here to include Andrew.
    You are all gems, and all welcomed in my house, and if we differ on doctrine, hopefully, patience can have a perfect work that understanding can come to the one deficient and we can just continue to manifest the love of God until this takes place.

  105. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    Zululander if I may be so bold (or blunt as you say), then please show me all these Scriptures (remember the New Covenant idea of authority is different than Old) and while you’re at it show the “ridiculousness” of my view of authority.

  106. I felt a quickening in my spirit when I read Tozer’s words about the ark. God has been speaking about this for some time and I have pondered the meaning. What will this ARK look like? I am waiting on God for that answer.

    Way up in the posts, Mike wrote about feeling ill as he walks into some of today’s church gatherings. I have felt the same at times–I think it is a call to intercession. I have wanted to run, but these are serious times and require serious prayer.

  107. marilyn Oct 31st 2013

    Thank you Daniel. Great background work. What about the church in Corinth being left to themselves and becoming so full of mixture with paganism that Paul was needed to come teach and lead? Kind of like Judges where it is written: In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes. Groups of people who come to know each other and follow their love for the Lord and each other, and are open to Scriptual correction do fair much better. Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. If our seeking after the gifts to the point of mimicking instead of seeking Him for them and interferes with loving Him first and then each other………..aren’t some kind of guard rails needed?

  108. Daniel Oct 31st 2013

    “The idea that the Man Christ Jesus has absolute and final authority over the whole church and over all of its members in every detail of their lives is simply not now accepted as true by the rank and file of evangelical Christians” (A.W. Tozer – The Waning Authority of Christ in the churches)

    This quote from Tozer seems to sum up what I am writing about.

  109. 100% Zululander Oct 31st 2013

    Daniel, the question is not if there are leaders or not. You yourself describe meetings. These meetings are all organised by leaders.
    The question is how they lead. We got smart names like servant leaders or follower leaders or whatever but the point is THEY ARE LEADERS appointed by the Lord for this function. In the bible, doctrine was settled by leaders.
    A group of people, christian or not, without leadership are just an ineffective crowd, but with leadership its an organisation with function & purpose for every member.
    I have yet to see a group of christians perform in any form of unison without a leader, only being “led by the Spirit”
    Come to Africa & see foreign christian organizations being effective. no lone rangers
    Bottom line is, one believes what one wants to & there’s plenty scriptures to use to justify ourselves

  110. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013


    The flesh profits nothing.
    The flesh quenches the Holy Spirit.
    The flesh of man is an ENEMY OF GOD.
    The flesh RESISTS the Holy Spirit.
    The flesh does not worship nor honor the Holy Spirit.

    Want to know why the religious organizations are as worldly and carnal as the world we live in??

    Because LIKE begets LIKE.


    SPIRIT OF GOD BEGETS THE IMAGE OF GOD….ALL the facets of God’s Nature.

    The whole point of Christ’s death on the cross was to make a way for GOD TO INDWELL MAN so that GOD WOULD RESTORE HIS IMAGE IN MAN……which was lost/corrupted at the Fall.

    Jesus said “I AM the Truth, the Way, and the Life” Jesus made the way for GOD TO INDWELL MANKIND!!
    In order to RESTORE GOD’S IMAGE in mankind!

    If the only reason you came to the cross was to ESCAPE hellfire and brimstone, THAN THAT IS ALL YOU WILL RECEIVE.

  111. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    ZULULANDER – you are so right when you say-
    “We got smart names like servant leaders or follower leaders or whatever but the point is THEY ARE LEADERS appointed by the Lord for this function. In the bible, doctrine was settled by leaders.
    A group of people, christian or not, without leadership are just an ineffective crowd, but with leadership its an organisation with function & purpose for every member.
    I have yet to see a group of christians perform in any form of unison without a leader, only being “led by the Spirit”
    Come to Africa & see foreign christian organizations being effective. no lone rangers”

    I too have NEVER seen a group of Christians function in any biblical manner without leadership. The “5-fold” is God’s idea.

    Otherwise it is not a true ‘Body’, but rather an “amorphous blob” going nowhere.

    But it is GOD who anoints, empowers and raises up such leaders – TO HIS GLORY- not man.

    Christ is at the center – and He is the one in charge.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  112. Carina Oct 31st 2013

    Interesting debate as usual.
    I’m currently considering dropping out of the visible church system so Daniel’s points resonate with me. I’m attending a very good church, with a God-fearing pastor, but I can’t shake the feeling that a lot of it, even the seemingly good parts, smells like religion. I get bored, I get restless, I get mad at the repetitiveness of just another service with the SAME structure to the tiniest detail, no changes or spontaneity whatsoever. Too much stiffness and rigidity, seems to me. Everything seems so scripted. Yes, you can talk about the Holy Spirit and Jesus being Lord… But, oh, does the Holy Spirit wants us to do the same things over and over again? Does the Holy Spirit want the pastor to preach for forty minutes every week and the worship team to lead worship and sing basically the same songs for an hour every week? I attend a Pentecostal church. We supposedly believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Yet I don’t see them at work… I only see a pastor who claims to want to make everyone grow, but the truth is a pastor-centered church will breed pastor-dependent people. It’s not about “democracy” in decision-making. But I think pastors and elders can inhibit growth just by being ever-present, always ready to provide advice as if they’re the ones with all the answers. Only by forgetting to remind us that JESUS is the Good Shepherd. JESUS is the one we should be seeking. The Holy Spirit is the anointed teacher able to lead us to all truth.
    We had an incident where this new pastor (we’ve been at this local church for only a few months) and his wife attempted to counsel us on some issues my husband was facing. I’m sure they had the best intentions but the result was we felt invaded (there were too many conversations initiated by them, too many specific tips given, etc., and concerned seemed to become control), and at one point we both clearly felt the Lord was telling us, Seek ME! When will you finally understand you should put your trust in ME and not MAN!
    But it’s easier to ask another to go up the mount for you and bring you an answer from God. It’s easier to ask for prayers, and a special impartation, than to do the homework yourself. It’s easier to do what everyone else around you is doing.
    I don’t mean to disparage the whole church system but in the three evangelical congregations I’ve been a part of I saw the same: people who blindly followed and worshipped their leaders and pastors who just love to be in that role (even if they claim otherwise). It’s very hard to be a pastor and NOT fall into that trap. Very hard to let Jesus be the pastor and accept the undershepherd’s role.

  113. Gordon Neil Oct 31st 2013

    Mankind has brought leadership on themselves …someone to be king. They do not want to hear the voice of God. Yes, someone to tell them what to do and when to do it and why to do it. A who, what, when, where, why and how to do it whatever it is to do or say.

    Now we know a little! We say ‘Jesus Is Lord’ by the Holy Spirit. In other words, He is our King and our King is our Husband and King of Kings, Lord or Lords. I listen for My Covenant King by the Holy Spirit. I want to hear the Truth and I can hear Him in drunks and preachers and especially, the janitors.

    We are to ASK, call on God personally; not through someone that wants the vote or get his or her ticket punched at Bible College. Can God teach me anything through those that have their ticket punched. Sure, does it all the time …God is good!

    People want a leader for one reason or another. The Christian Churches-As-Usual want their cake and eat it to type comfort. Suffering following Jesus is not what they want. No Way do most want to trudge the Narrow Way in a personal relationship with God, leading them, teaching them, loving them, providing for them, protecting them no matter what. They do not want to grow mature by troubles and tribulations, God writing His laws on their hearts.

    Guess we can just blame somebody else for our American ways. The preacher, the leader, the wife, the husband if only they would have, if only they would have done my way ……….it would have been done for Jesus the right way.

  114. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    So if the church is supposed to have “no leaders”,

    How do we explain God appointing Teachers and Apostles and Shepherds and Elders?

    (All of them with “authority” under God?)

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  115. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    That is not to say the current church is doing it right.

    Clearly it is not.



  116. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    AMEN…….Gordon Neil

    Nothing new under the sun.

    The people want a human leader to blame, to take care of them, to adore……instead of doing what it takes to follow the still small voice of the GODHEAD that is suppose to be WITHIN THEM….according to written word of God.

    The people prefer to “settle” for the crumbs of the Bread of Heaven, so they don’t have to die to self-fleshness in order to ACCESS the ENTIRE BREAD OF HEAVEN.

  117. Elisheva Oct 31st 2013

    I believe this prophecy to be true. Might it be that we are seeing the antichrist sitting in the temple? remember that the believer is suppose to be the temple?

  118. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    No leaders

    No Revival

  119. Paul Crier Oct 31st 2013

    I have to agree wholeheartedly with Mike’s post earlier in the thread. However I also agree with you Andrew. We do need Godly leadership, but where are they? I have to say in my experience they have been sorely lacking in the Church.

    Nonetheless I am now in a Church with a Nigerian Pastor, who is very anointed, has a Fathers heart and seems to be a strong leader. I can readily submit to him. I feel that The Lord is preparing me to be a leader also. I see you as a leader type Andrew. Am I correct?

    By the way, off topic, I went to a wonderful revival conference in Wales in 2009 (I think) at moriah Chapel hosted by sermon index, in which you spoke. Are there plans for any more in the near future for the UK.

    Bless you. Paul.

  120. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    History shows again and again

    That the Peter’s, the Paul’s, the Finney’s, the Wesley’s

    Are not just “extras”

    They are essential.

    -Andrew Stroml

  121. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    The Kingdom of God is NOT a DEMOCRACY for men to vote in whom they think are the most qualified for the position.

    The Kingdom of God is a THEOCRACY.

    And the Rightful King will APPOINT whomever He chooses, when He chooses…..with or WITHOUT the approval or the “election” of the people.

    Which is why there is such an uprising when the God appointed person is bringing the Bread of Heaven into the congregation that is being RULED/LED by the man-appointed person.

  122. Carina Oct 31st 2013

    I won’t take the extreme position of denying the validity and importance of anointed “leaders” (servants is a better word, but I won’t argue over this). All I’m saying is, if some of us here and elsewhere around the world have been involved with not just one but many different congregations, and in each and every one of them we’ve seen the same and been greatly wounded by the people who were supposed to protect us and feed us with good, unadulterated Word, if we’ve been hungry and gone to the fig tree for fruit and found only leaves, is it so hard to understand that some of us are too fed up to stomach it any longer? Yes, for some of us the answer may be, as some have said, keep looking and when you find a good local church, by all means join and submit to the leadership. But what if no such church exists in our area? What if all of them are corrupt, apostate, empty carcasses of dead religion? What if some of us are actually being called by God to be servants (undershepherds, teachers, elders, whatever name you want to use) in a movement of house churches? Indeed, in some cases those house groups become just as corrupt as the system that has been left, because it’s one thing to get out of Babylon, and a wholly different matter to take Babylon out of you. But what if some of us DO have a calling to be used by God to do something different from the churches around us?
    I’m not talking about lone-ranger Christianity or a rebellious no-authority kind. None of us denies the importance of being fully surrendered and submitted to Christ and finding “two or three believers” to be gathered together in His name. And I think naturally, the person or couple who initiates the group would be looked at as a moderator of sorts, so he or she (or they) would become a kind of pastor to the people, teaching the new converts and aiming to get everyone to maturity and Christ-dependence rather than leader-dependence.
    It is not impossible for pastors in the traditional church system to be truly humble and Christ-like. But I haven’t found such a pastor… Even the best of them falls far short of the goal, and I found them more distracting than helpful.

  123. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    So history is clear

    No “anointed” leaders

    No Revival.

  124. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    But where are they?

    Good question.

    Maybe more than ever

    We have been “getting the leaders we deserve”

    A horrifying thought.


  125. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    There are REVIVALS happening all over the world!

    If you’re not a part of a REVIVAL in the land that God gave you, then ASK GOD what the problem is.

  126. What you are saying is true Andrew, be encouraged, I understand what you mean… 🙂

  127. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I have been all over the Western world and found no true Revivals occurring in any Western nation.

    If you have a real Revival in your city, please post a video of it here so we can rejoice with you, LightningStorm.

    We wait with interest



  128. The Tozer prophecy, and what I have seen at emmanuel.tv
    makes me think about Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2:31-45

    31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
    33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.
    34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.
    35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace.

    But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

    36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king.
    37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory;
    38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

    39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
    40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.
    41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.
    42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.
    43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

    44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
    45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

    “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

    The Synagogue Church Of All Nations in Lagos, Nigeria, may be where true Christianity will spread from in the end-time.

  129. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    Andrew, you have posted videos of Revivals.

    What NUMBER of people does it have to be before you declare it a REVIVAL?

    How many new births and baptisms per week is classified as a REVIVAL?
    How many deliverances and healings?

    Or does a REVIVAL spread like a FIRE….
    We live in an area that is susceptible to forest fires.
    A forest fire does not START as a full blown 1,000 acre fire.
    Neither have any of the past REVIVALS. They have started with a few people who receive new birth or the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then the Spirit leads other people to those who have received.

    Just like the NT.

    The 3,000 and the 5,000 in the NT were the EXTRAORDINARY, NOT THE NORM FOR THE NT.

    And 3,000 and 5,000 in the area of Jerusalem at that time would be considered a small percentage, a very small percentage of people.

    According to Josephus, the population of Jerusalem was well over 1 MILLION people…..not including the foreigners from all over the world who came to trade….seeing that Jerusalem was a major trade center at that time.

  130. Lightning Storm Oct 31st 2013

    Why does mankind think that the Kingdom of God is run just like the kingdom of this world?

    Treating their INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP with God as a “job”, and “occupation”………in which there is ALWAYS a necessity for a RESUME’.

    “Roll out your resume’, then I will listen to you”

    Holy Father WILL be rolling out the scrolls on which the Angels have been recording our daily words and activities.
    Now THERE is the RESUME’ that counts for ALL eternity.

  131. Pilgrim Oct 31st 2013

    I was called out of the organised church by God, about 7 years ago. Since then I have only attended meetings in church buildings on special occasions – funerals or interdenominational type meetings which are hiring a local church building simply for their own purpose. I attended a house church at one time, but they are not free from the same problems as every where else I am not in rebellion but I will only do what the Lord leads me to do.I do hear His voice, but I am not hearing as much as I once did , despite constant prayer . I can only conclude that I am where He wants me to be right now. My wife and I have little Christian fellowship apart from with family. It is a lonely existance at times, but I have the feeling that I am missing nothing through absence from the church. I believe it is a time of preparation for what is to come.
    I offer no advice to other Christians but ”whatever He tells you to do, do it”. I do have a prophetic gifting but it is not being consciously exercised much at present. I believe there has been, and is, far too much confusion in the organised church, which has become like ‘Babel’ where everyone has an opinion and must express it.
    As for me, I watch and wait.

  132. Andrew Oct 31st 2013

    I agree, Pilgrim

    But you cannot remain where you are.

    7 years is long enough for ‘Wilderness’. We must seek for a place of true ‘Body’. Or at least the “makings” of it.

    I speak from experience.


    Andrew Strom

  133. Thanks Andrew for this, your comments are 100%. You are talking plainly.
    Leaders MUST be anointed
    Must TOTALY discourage their hearers from elevating them on to pedestals as great men (breeding ground for disaster.)
    MUST remain humble themselves, realize they are
    shepherds not sheep-dogs and act accordingly.
    A little leaven leavens the whole lump, then those to whom they preach, have every opportunity. and no excuses.

    Personally i see Laodicea and Philadelphia as not mutually elusive, but concurrent in these last days.
    I believe Philadelphia, with everything God has to give it in these last days already exists in the West but is not manifest in the broad public scene one reason for this may be main media is only interested ed in scandal, and muck raking, (It sells, the Truth does not) and there are plenty of religious organizations where it has a field day . That said however. God has His timing and it is always perfect!
    Everything God has done with revival OT and NT seems to have begun with Him calling one man? exception the first church at Pentecost?
    Pr Michael

  134. Daniel Nov 1st 2013


    The question is not whether we need the Pauls, Peters, Finneys, or Wesleys. The question I am trying to answer is: what are they? Paul plainly said that he was a servant, not anything of himself, just used by God to plant and water. Jesus said, “You are not to be called leaders, for only one is your leader, even Christ”. I will not debate with you the plain words of Jesus, either receive them or reject them, but don’t pretend like they are of no consequence. The five-fold are gifts given to the body, they belong to the ekklesia, the ekklesia does not belong to them. Instead the ekklesia is the sole possession of Christ. He gave to the body functions (apostles, prophets, evangelists etc.) So as to help build it up. We have no need of trying to restore these function, they already are there, Christ gives them through His Spirit.

  135. Daniel Nov 1st 2013

    Revival means the outpouring and quickening of the Holy Spirit, so let me ask you, which “leader” brought the day of Pentecost? It is Jesus Christ who pours out the Holy Spirit. Yes He may use men to help birth it, but they are his instruments, and He can sovereignly do what He wants, we simply need to obey.

  136. Daniel Nov 1st 2013


    I am not a leader, so if I invite people, brothers and sisters in Christ, to gather together in His name, does that mean it doesn’t count? I have seen the Holy Spirit move among those who simply met together and waited upon Him. Yes the gift ministers are given to help the gathering flow in the gifts (2 or 3 prophets in 1 Cor. 14), but are they in charge of it? Tell me, who controls the gathering of 1 Corinthians 14 (the greatest picture we have of assembling in the New Testament)? Why are we so afraid of depending upon the Holy Spirit for leading us? If we would place our trust in the Word of God and be led by the Spirit, instead of trusting in our flesh or man to lead and revive us, we would see a mature body of Christ, a pure and spotless bride

  137. Gordon Neil Nov 1st 2013

    What is happening? A friend of mine told me I was sitting in the goat side of the church in a Sunday Morning service. Must have been right cause I looked around and I could see many sickly folks; Pennycostal of course! Not long after that I returned to a church where me and my wife were married. A Methodist Senior pastor had been Baptized by Jesus. The CHANGE was evident! He started going to Twelve Step meeting then preaching the Steps of Basic Training ………..all about getting sober mind, body and soul.

    The Pennycostal Church voted in a new guy and I was sitting among the goats at his first Sunday Morn up to Ball. He opened with this, “I’m the New Sheriff in town.” ….and Witch Craft has been on the move every since in that church. Folks, there are preachers that can sell you termites ……..false authority all day long.

  138. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    Sadly Daniel, if you do not recognize godly authority, leadership and eldership, then there is nothing to say.

    Paul called himself a “father” to the church. He named names, he ousted heretics, he bought discipline and expelled people from fellowship. If there is no-one to do such things, the true church cannot survive.

    I am a father over my natural family. God made me a father and I know how to be gentle and authoritative – both.

    Shepherds, fathers, elders.

    All have authority. All are New Testament forms of leadership.

    Enough talk. Enough rebellion. Enough disdaining of authority. Excuses, excuses….


    Andrew Strom

  139. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    Can someone update me as to where the conversation has traveled? What are we talking about now? The topic seems to change every two or three comments. It seems to me that there is much talk about the things we need: revivalists, order, etc. But when these things come, how many of us will receive them? It was the very ‘Christians’ who were most waiting for ‘the Consolation of Israel’ (the religious leaders) who most rejected Him when He came. I think that when we discuss things, we should be watchful and alert, knowing that we may end up opposing the very things we say we are for.

    Do we want leaders? Some blatantly say they don’t; but what about those who say they do? I think there is a deeper fellowship that can be had, even here online.

    Andrew, I agree with much that you’re saying: God rarely ever does anything in a vacuum. My first post, I believe, in the previous forums was titled ‘Pray for Carriers of Revival’ or something like that. It appears apparent that many even here don’t agree that God uses chosen or, God forbid special, vessels to perform the things He does. My first post in the previous forums was about praying for those who are vessels of revival, because I realize that while we may pray for revival, satan doesn’t fight against the revival; He fights against the carriers or vessels of it. satan didn’t struggle with and fight against the Holy Spirit (i.e. Revival) as He descended like a dove and lighted on Jesus at His baptism in the Jordan; he came against Jesus (the Carrier of [Revival]) and fought against HIM to prevent Him from taking that revival to people.

    I knew a guy in Nashville several years ago whom the Holy Spirit will use a carrier or vessel of revival; this one guy has resident in him several revivals (which I guess partly means that several revivals will come out from him). These aren’t Lakeland or Toronto ‘happy’ revivals I’m talking about; these are frightening and overwhelming. But if we keep looking over people’s heads for revival and order and all these other good things (in the Holy Spirit) that God gives to “those who obey Him”, we may miss the vessels of revival when they stand in front of us. We are likely to miss what God is showing us NOW, because we are constantly looking into TOMORROW. People, be wise. God uses leaders and vessels to carry out His work. We need to not only PRAY for them, but LOOK for them as well. Last year, the Lord told me that my own brethren are around me, but that I must LOOK or else I’ll think they’re over there or there and miss them right in front of me. Turns out, of course, that He was right. We must become practical people while spiritual: the answers are in front of us; these vessels and leaders will often look ‘common’ and to many of us will appear not so godly or great, but we shouldn’t call anything God has made and purposed to use ‘common’.

  140. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    The issue of authority is going to create monumental war in the heavenlies in western nations. We simply don’t like authority though we’d all love to lord it over others. I currently work around three Christian leaders who are a band of brother wolves and who hate godliness with such great hatred, because it is true or genuine authority that they really hate.

    The atmosphere of places will change when a person of genuine godly authority enters the place. The atmosphere will fight against the person’s spirit, because what’s happening is that the Lord, enthroned in that person’s life, has drawn the attacks of the ruling spirits in the area; they will attack the person (the carrier) and not the Lord (as they can’t) in order to remove him or her from the territory… because the territory, until the Lord changes it through carriers of Him (literally, carriers of Him), belongs to those ruling spirits and principalities. There is a lot of rebellion today and opposition of authority; but what we should oppose is power (and there is a difference) when it’s wrongly used. Authority is always good, because it comes only from God; but power can be good or bad. I would urge anyone who really wants to learn what in the world the big deal is about authority to get Watchman Nee’s book ‘Spiritual Authority’.

    I was in Nashville in late ’08, downtown. Passing by the library, I saw that it had just opened and several people were walking into it. Among those people was a man who walked with a certain dignity. As I looked, the Spirit opened my eyes, and I saw the Lord manifest on that man’s head, sitting on a throne that was on that man’s head. The seat of the throne was on the man’s head, and the legs of the throne went down to his waist. The Ark of the Covenant was on the man’s shoulders, golden with its poles, and went out before and behind him. It went from his shoulders (so that the throne sat on top of it) down to his waist. I saw that the Lord was Lord in that man’s life and the apparent king (throne) and priest (Ark) ministry in him. The Lord’s authority was on him, but I know that many will reject authority, especially since most won’t see the Lord when He is the authority behind a person. Sometimes, the Lord shows me certain people He is making carriers of revival; for those who can’t see things that clearly, be watchful so you don’t reject who the Lord sends. I may post later about another one of these carriers of revival whom I saw in a restaurant in Atlanta in ’98. Those who reject authority reject the Lord, and those who aren’t looking with the intention to see His appointed authority when it shows up may miss “the time of their visitation.” That’s the honest truth.

  141. We are servants to Jesus – it behoves us as servants to submit and do what He says…

    This means that we need to be willing to submit…

    If we are willing to submit then we will hear His Voice telling us what He wants us to do…

    It really is very simple…


    After that He will lead us…

    He will tell us specifically who He wants us to submit to in terms of spiritual leadership over our lives – He will – He has for me…

    And if He is calling us to lead others then He will tell us that too and this will be confirmed – others will speak this over our lives – I have experienced this also…

    The Lord always confirms His will for us through others…

    We are to submit ourselves to one another out of reverence for Christ – even though He was God and was a Son He learned obedience through the things which He suffered – He submitted to His parents – His earthly parents for eighteen years even though He was ready at twelve to be about His Father’s business…

    There are – as Andrew has said – no excuses for finding our place in the Body – we just have to submit – we just have to be willing to take our place as a servant of Christ – for we died and our life is now hidden with Christ in God – wherefore we are to glorify God in our bodies and in our spirits which belong to God…

    And if we find in ourselves resistance to this – then we need to give this to the Lord – He will not chastise us for talking honestly to Him about any resistance – rebellion – which we have towards this…

    Excuses are not relevant to the Lord – honesty is…

    He will never reject an honest heart who comes and says they are struggling to submit…

    I have been there and He has been patient with me… 🙂

    Love you all,


  142. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    Amen, AJH. “Excuses are not relevant to the Lord – honesty is.” I’m honest about wanting to ‘box the ears’ of the three Christian leaders I work with. I wouldn’t want to be that beaten man on the side of the road and have those three come along. They’d probably stomp me till I was finally dead and gone. That’s being honest. I find it a very attractive attribute of God that He likes honesty. That’s a quality that is plain endearing: He wants us to be good, yes… but He wants this goodness to come from our inmost place (from Him), not from trying hard (flesh). After trying hard, David fell and realized this: “Surely, You desire truth (righteousness) in the inmost place” or as The Message puts it, “What You are after is truth (righteousness) from the inside out” (Ps. 51:6). Amen.

    Another experience with a carrier of revival: in Atlanta in ’98, I was eating at a restaurant (I shared this several times on the forums when they were open) when I saw a girl who was a worker there. Then the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and showed me a vision which I saw with my eyes open: I saw the Holy Spirit and her anointing within her (or her calling) begin to spill out from her and into the restaurant like white smoke; and the Lord was present, standing there with her. The Holy Spirit filled the restaurant wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Everyone in the restaurant (and those coming in) began to worship and praise God; demons left people; every single sickness and disease was healed; even bad, binding, and false mindsets were broken, including the mindset of racism. The effect of especially the mindsets being broken was a very great UNITY so that everyone of all races SINCERELY (not patronizingly like we do in the flesh) loved one another. Then everyone was on the floor, weeping and repenting, etc. And the girl and the other employees and the manage could not work nor could I and the customers buy or eat anything, because the cloud of the Holy Spirit had filled the restaurant and was beginning to travel slowly outside it. Everyone, while in the restaurant, acknowledged Jesus’ Lordship and could not stand but prostrated. When I checked this with the Lord, I was taken to this passage:

    “It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, ‘For He is good; for His mercy endures forever, that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God” (2Chron. 5:13-14). Amen.

    Unity brings His presence, and unity is the result of His presence. This girl was also a carrier of revival: at least one revival will come from her. These are some exciting things; but more exciting they will be if we don’t miss them!

  143. Amen brother ValleyAnt about your honesty, you made me laugh and encouraged me – bless ValleyAnt with Your freedom Lord to be honest before You and see that freedom come in his innermost being – I know of what you speak brother – and it is precious with God – He meets us there and He helps us to submit as He calls us – Praise His Wonderful Name… 🙂

  144. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    Amen, AJH. Thank God He loves honesty, because I’ve got a lot more honesty than honey right now. I think it takes honesty and not honey (being nice and proper) to break through or across or in to deeper places in God. Thanks for reminding me. Integrity is high on God’s list. In this world that is full of pretension and half-heartedness, honesty is probably extremely valuable to God. “He meets us there and He helps us to submit as He call us.” Amen. May I submit before I press my fist against a few faces. Lol. I think Jesus chuckled at that one, but maybe not. Lol. Work on me, Lord, because I don’t want to work on it; I want to punch on it.

  145. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    After a private chuckle over here, goodnight all. And AJH, God bless and REMEMBER you; “for God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister” (Heb. 6:10). Amen. Amen.

  146. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    ValleyAnt – your comments on “Carriers” of Revival are brilliant – and so true.

    It is not “submission” that is the big issue.

    It is whether these “Carriers” will be recognized by their brothers. Remember, Jesus was rejected.

    Sad days

    Andrew Strom

  147. GaryB Nov 1st 2013

    Andrew Strom Wrote:

    So history is clear

    No “anointed” leaders

    No Revival. quote……….

    So true!



    You have restored my faith in this website. The fivefold is a false doctrine as is the false New Apostolic Movement out there which parallels it.
    The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry – Christian

    The New Apostolic Reformation by Inner-City Christian Discernment Ministry

    *New Apostolic Reformation – Deception In The Church

    *The Apostolic and Prophetic Movement – Apologetics Resource Center

    It is totally not Biblical and will lead the church into deception and a total misunderstanding of 1 Cor 12:28. It is under the wrong assumption we need the 5 fold Govt to crank up the church.
    There is also floating around on this website another unbiblical belief.
    The statements re ‘authority’ comes from a false doctrine called “Covering Theology” whose origins are charismatic witchcraft. It was promoted in Pentecostal circles.
    Isaiah 30:1
    “Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering (false authority), but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin”

    Covering Theology is an erroneous doctrine that claims all Christians must be under the authority (covering) of a church leader to be protected from the warfare of the devil. It also claims this same covering is necessary to receive God’s blessings. However, there is no Scripture foundation for this doctrine. Covering theology is a leftover from the debunked Heavy Shepherding Movement that appeared about 20 years ago.”

    The Pharisees were the original spiritual abusers. As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. Their special kind of abuse which brings bondage is still in churches today. It has different vocabulary, but the same source. It has a variation of the old methods for oppression, but the same outcome. So authoritarianism, oppression, and legalism were characteristic of those historic abusive leaders, who were more interested in themselves than their flocks. Luke Chapter 11 outlines it all.

    The key is submission to an authority figure, who presumes to be standing in the stead of Jesus. It is similar to the Pharisees’ presumptions, who thought they were the final decision-maker of interpreting what were really their own rules, rather than themselves submitting the Word of God and to Jesus the Messiah when He arrived. No person stands in place of Jesus and He is our only and final authority.

    Checkpoints for you:
    If you are in a church where the pastor has set himself up as the sole or final arbiter of spiritual matters, interpretations, or church or financial decisions, you may be in a spiritually abusive church.
    If you have a palpable feeling, or have had an overt threat of excommunication, unless you blindly follow the pastor in all he says and does, with no questions asked, you may be in a spiritually abusive church. If you have been told that performance/work/submission is the indicator of faith, you may be in a spiritually abusive church.
    If you have been threatened with the phrase “You will be out from under my covering” you ARE in a spiritually abusive church.

    2 Corinthians 6:17-18
    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate , saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

  149. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    We do not believe in “Covering” doctrine at all, my friend.

    We simply believe in leaders (rather than none at all).

    Neither do we believe in “you must obey” or any such garbage.

    Neither do we believe in the “New Apostolic Reformation” (so called). Never believed in the NAR either.

    You have your facts totally wrong

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  150. I’m chuckling too as I read it ValleyAnt, bless you brother – God will remember you – He will, Love you, Andrew… 🙂

  151. Right to the cross it was all about submission for Jesus – not My will but Yours be done – obedience is submission to the Father’s will… 🙂

  152. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    AJH, it made me chuckle too, and I’m the one wrote it!

    Thanks, Andrew. This is how God has always worked and continues to work.

    AM, words and the lenses through which we view the world can poison or darken reality. The things you listed as wrong are actually right; they have just been poisoned, but the baby must never be thrown out with the bathwater.

  153. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    Zululander, no worries, I don’t take bluntness amiss, probably because I tend to be that way myself so I understand when it is not meant maliciously. I’ll address the rest of this post to both you and AM:

    I asked the Lord about five-fold ministry some time ago and He answered me and showed me a bigger picture concerning His Body displaying His *manifold* wisdom to the powers and principalities. The term “five-fold” is nowhere to be found in scripture and seems to be how the natural mind has conceptualized it. I have found in general that when man coins his own phrases so to speak and it is extra-biblical, that it misses the mark. We should always test. Manifold, on the other hand is a word and concept that is scriptural. Not saying that I have it all down pat, but that seeing Christ’s body in that light is at least closer to the truth. I’m not at all arguing against apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, on the contrary am so blessed when I run into those that have the light of Christ. Sometimes I could just kiss their feet and would consider it a privilege to shine their shoes when I see Jesus in someone.

    Just in general for us all to keep in mind, that while everyone is given gifts and callings, these are given without repentance regardless of whether they are walking and ministering rightly before God. Another issue is that of spiritual maturity. This is why we all submit one to another and the whole Body is needed so that all will come to maturity. I don’t pray in terms of God raising up leaders so much, but more that everyone in the body of Christ will become vessels fit for His use……….and out of those some will be apostles, prophets, evangelists etc, but also all the other manifold gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, all of which are needful.

    Doesn’t it seem that we start to veer slightly off course if we think too much in terms of dividing up the body into leaders and followers, rather than in terms of the whole Body. A slight veering off in the beginning leads to missing the mark by a very wide berth by the time you get to the end of the journey, and I think that’s what we are witnessing now with the church in general. I pray by the grace of God that we will not travel down that same way again, but will patiently wait for the Lord in everything. When the way looks dark and the heavens as brass, that’s the time when we are most tempted to go by the light of our own fires instead of waiting and trusting, seems to me. Times like that the Israelites wanted to go back to Egypt.

  154. Barry Schmidt Nov 1st 2013

    Where is Jesus in the house?
    Where is Jesus in those who are leaving the house?
    Where is Jesus in those condemning the house?
    What we have is non religious folk in the house and religious folk condemning the house and leaving the house.
    But where is Jesus?

    And why isn’t anyone asking about the absence of Jesus?
    Folk are asking about the absence of tongues, the absence of holiness, the absence of obedience, the absence of life and the absence of truth in the house but no one is asking about the absence of Jesus!

    Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. (John 15:4-6 NASB)

  155. Gordon Neil Nov 1st 2013

    God is still calling! The Revival, the Restoration, the Wake-up call, the command “A TEN TION!,” and He chooses who He wills. The Battle of my personal salvation has already been won! If I covet for myself what God in me is, and I start to shine due to God’s reflection for my own glory, I can praise God all day long taking my pride in vain. I am to grow so as to do nothing on my own ……..passing on what God has taught me along the Way. The Fear of God is my delight following the lead of Jesus. My Message to pass on ……is, My Anchors Holds and God has an extra Life Preserver. Ask, God and I know everything will be alright! I serve Life that has been given to me and through me by the Holy Spirit. I must continue to die daily to myself! Jesus paid it all …….so my work, my burden is light. The joy of the Lord is my strength …..so trust and obey ………and I remember …”There’s no other way.” …and then I am in revival. I live in Revival One Day At A Time. Most of us do not think we are in a Revival unless There is a Big Noise.
    I am commanded to make Disciples, Disciples by the Love of God … Fruit Power, the Evidence of God’s Love. An Ambassador of God, is not a man of his own. ……….And Ambassadors will know the Difference. Most Christian Churches-As-Usual believe BUT do not believe. Why can’t we believe all the Way? Believe with faith and minister by obedience……….filled with the Love of God for others. I have found out, if a person does not know the Love of God, know how special he or she is ….you can’t pass it on. The Devil is in the business of selling false Love (the love of the flesh). God has warned us!
    I am of a people of the Way, not my own. My flesh is but a tent, a vehicle of service following the mind of the spirit man God has made in me – the mind of Christ is becoming my mind by the Holy Spirit. I am still being manufactured, being tested in God’s quality control department, being equipped, staying prepared for Higher Ground service in the Love of God. Revival is still in me for Jesus lives! There is a time ……..that we must abide listening for the commands of God. Things seem to come to a stand still. When this happens, rest, Yes, rest, while you can so as to be ready for service at the NEXT call of God. Most Christian yearn for the Big Noise ….everything that is run on steam: Oh, esteem ….BUT little team. That is what warriors do, rest when you can, for we do not know what our next mission might be. Stay armored up even at rest and stay Watchful. Sometimes when I think it is OK and safe to let my guard down ………..dangerous.
    Know that when we dust off our feet as a Disciple of God …Oh, what judgment, those left behind will suffer. ASK God who to marry, where He wants you to go, etc. ASK God and I know everything will be alright by the Blood, in the name Jesus, thee name above all names. Talk and Walk with God is the Way of Revival even in the worst of times.

    Good Morning Church ………a Revival again today by God’s grace.

  156. Barry Schmidt Nov 1st 2013

    BTW- for all you individualists out there who think abiding in Jesus is a kind of John Wayne rugged individualism abiding – let me remind you this was NOT SPOKEN TO ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON BY JESUS . It was spoken to the GROUP – to the entire leadership of the church!
    When Jesus said ” if you abide in me” what he meant was “if you ALL TOGETHER abide in me.”

  157. Barry Schmidt Nov 1st 2013

    One of my seminary professors grew up in Aw Tozer’s church. He knew Tozer intimately and his parents were leaders in Tozer’s church. Let me me you the rest of the story:
    Tozer loved God but he didn’t like people. He had virtually no friends because he was so impatient and demanding of people. Even his own family was estranged from him- not because they were unspiritual. It because Tozer neglected spending anytime or effort or energy in deuce eloping relationships with them. When his 12 year old son finished his devotions he asked Tozer to play catch with him . Tozer handed him a book on mystical verse and exhorted his son to find pleasure in that instead of in time spent with his father.
    What Tozer said was mostly good- but what Tizer DID was often harsh and demanding.
    Could his “prophesy” be at least a little influenced by his disdain for ordinary folk in the house?

  158. Gordon Neil Nov 1st 2013

    Barry S. …..Big Time point and I personally needed to hear the Message. Thank You!

  159. Barry Schmidt Nov 1st 2013

    This is how you know when Jesus is is the house and when you know HE IS NOT friends:

    . If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. This I command you, that you love one another. (John 15:4-6, 10, 12-14, 17 NASB)
    Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, (Ephesians 4:1, 2 NASB)

    Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:32 NASB)
    If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20 NASB)
    the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (1 John 2:6 NASB)

  160. Barry Schmidt Nov 1st 2013

    I have been a rogue speaker and I have been a tongue speaker most of my life but I believe in the fullness of the Spirit with evidence OF JESUS in the life- initial evidence of Jesus and continued evidence of Jesus!!

  161. Daniel Nov 1st 2013

    Amen Watchful! That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but you put it so succinctly. Andrew I am not against godly authority, I am just after true spiritual authority, ones who love and obey the word over man’s traditions and opinions. Such authority is part of the body, not above it. Grace and peace to you all!

  162. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    {{ Such authority is part of the body, not above it. }}

    Now that is what I call succinct, Daniel, amen, nail on the head!

  163. Carina Nov 1st 2013

    I was part of a “five-fold ministry” church for seven years and I personally witnessed and suffered all the abuses Watchful mentions. I read Spiritual Authority when I was on the process of leaving this church and a lot of things in the book disturbed me…. I can’t say whether the book has concepts that are not biblical… But unfortunately many of the “leaders” use legitimate concepts in the book and twist them to their own benefit, and exalt themselves over the congregation, as if they were THE final authority and Jesus was not Lord over us all, including them. At some point pride blinds them and they don’t even realize Jesus is NOT placing a stamp of approval over everything they do.
    A lot of us who question, not the CONCEPT of authority, but the application of it in modern churches, the twisting of the concept into worldly power, have these concerns because we’ve personally seen how very damaging bad religion and bad leadership can be. We’ve been hurt, some very deeply… And I’m not using this as an excuse never to submit again to a human pastor. I’m at my third attempt and I really thought I’d found my place… until I saw in my new pastor some worrying signs and now I have to consult the Lord what He would have me do. Am I overreacting? Perhaps. But Andrew, we can’t sweep the problem under the carpet. Abuses from the church leadership are a huge, widespread thing and I would say, one of the things that PREVENT a revival from happening.
    I believe, (and this is not a math rule but a trend of sorts), that a lot of the mistakes and sins committed by Israel are being repeated by the Church. Therefore, a lot of the warnings for Israel could very well apply to us.
    See what the Lord has to say to us in Ezekiel 34

    Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them. They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them.”’”
    Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock; therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.”’”
    For thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day. I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord God. “I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.

    The chapter is longer and deserves a detailed analysis, but to me it is clear that many so-called pastors feed themselves and not the sheep, and actually do much more damage than good, and that JESUS promises to be a shepherd for those sheep. I’m not saying He’s not going to use human pastors/teachers, etc. to do that shepherding… Of course He does and will. There are other passages where He promises to raise up shepherds according to His heart. But here He’s saying, ultimately I AM YOUR TRUE SHEPHERD. And this is what all pastors should emphasize so that all sheep know this in their hearts of hearts. Humans will at different points fail and disappoint. (And Jeremiah 17 says, Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the Lord) JESUS will always be there for us and will always do the right thing.
    I’m not calling for the abolition of human authority. I’m just saying, Let’s remember there should be limits to it. Submission (and trust) to humans is never unconditional. Peter and John were respectful to Pharisees but at one point they had to say, Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.
    I think if we want a revival we should have a proper view of authority, which is neither the lone-ranger view nor the typical organized religion view.

  164. Inspired Nov 1st 2013

    Barry asks where is Jesus.
    I used to ask will the real Jesus please stand up, only to be met by these words, “stand and see Jesus/the salvation of God.” I do not feel condemned that I do not attend a church and am happy with the life that is shared in our community, with people helping people and expressing the life of God.

  165. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    Gordon Neil, good morning to you too! 🙂

    Inspired, thanks for your post about the bramble bush quite a few comments back, very good lesson in that! And agree with you about the many dear voices here, whether we always agree or not.

    Barry, sure do agree about the “evidence of Jesus”. But what you said about abiding in Him being not for us individually, but only for us corporately (unless I misunderstood?) for me I will have to test that one.

  166. marilyn Nov 1st 2013

    Thank you for your background info on Tozer, Barry Schmidt. I looked up his biography and was stunned. The beginning of the church’s lack of awakening is following after those that do not know God or His heart and hanging on their every word. Tozer writes: “I would like to see the time when the men and women of God, holy separated and spiritually enlightened-walk out of the evangelical church and form a group of their own……….” His wife might have wanted to see a husband and father “holy, separated and spiritually enlightened.”

    The Bible says: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her……”
    “Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.”

    Once again, love seems to be God’s main theme and top priority. Love is not just a word. It deserves our searching out within ourselves.

    Thank you for your insight Watchful and Daniel.

    Authority is not just a word. It needs to be studied out in God’s word. It is His order and His design. Therefore, it is needful to fit the criteria. Titus1:5-9

    Those that carry out their own understanding of God’s agenda without first pursuing love and obedience are not fatherly and will always miss the mark.

  167. Carina Nov 1st 2013

    And again, these facts about Tozer remind us never to look up to anyone just because they speak or write well. The theory may be correct but it’s the fruit we should examine.
    Again this should remind us that people are very imperfect, that we should not worship them, no matter how holy they seem. That doesn’t mean we should discard the message, of course, but we should consider all in context.

  168. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    Putting FAITH in mankind is IDOLATRY.

    God says it is FOOLISHNESS to put our TRUST/FAITH in mankind…..so why do we think that we know better than God? That we can find a “trustworthy” man/woman, when God says there are NONE.

    We put our FAITH in what our hearts and souls WORSHIP.

    ALL mankind is UNTRUSTWORTHY because NO ONE can KEEP these words that God said: I CHANGE NOT

    Mal 3:6 KJV
    For I [am] the LORD, I CHANGE NOT; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Nor can anyone KEEP these words that God said: I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU.

    Hbr 13:5 KJV
    [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, NOR FORSAKE THEE.

    Nor can anyone KEEP these words that God said: I CANNOT LIE

    Tts 1:2 KJV
    In hope of eternal life, which GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began;

    Jeremiah 17 is where God draws the line for us about FAITH.

    When we withdraw our trust/faith from someone or something, we do not replace it with SUSPICION, as the world does.

    We replace it with DIVINE LOVE (Divine Fruit) FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT…..GALATIANS 5.

    Therefore, our LOYALTY/FAITHFULNESS/ AND OBEDIENCE IS ONLY GIVEN TO ALMIGHTY GOD, and not split up and DIVIDED among many gods/idols.
    And the DIVINE LOVE OF GOD is given to those around us…..which draws ALL mankind to HIMSELF.

  169. “Then shall ye return,and discern between the righteous and the wicked,between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.”Mal.3:18 The phony is out there in the fivefold to be discerned..”COME OUT OF DEAD HOUSES AND SEEK THE SPIRIT WHO WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS.STOP BUILDING OXCARTS WHICH CANNOT CARRY GOD’S GLORY!COME OUT TO A GLORIOUS FUTURE.LISTEN TO WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES.”What you come out to has no necessary relation to house churches,other buildings or locations.The Spirit will designate the people the callings,the locations the moves,the stays etc This remnant will be in one accord totally submitted.The following is the WORD of the LORD given to us on June 30,1985.
    “There will be much FIRE. Many boards hammered up in the fashion of men will no longer hold the walls together. If a house is not built on Me, the SOLID ROCK, THE foundation will crumble. Where the house is not built on Jesus it will burn or be crumbled. I AM SHAKING MY HOUSE WITH BOMBING, BLASTING AND BURNING THE WORLD OVER. THERE WILL BE MUCH SPIRITUAL HOUSECLEANING. THROUGH TEARS AND ASHES, GROANING AND COMPLAINING AND CURSING, MY SHEEP WILL BE SEPARATED FROM THE GOATS. MY LITTLE WILLOWS WILL BECOME MIGHTY OAKS! The nails put in by men will be pulled out speedily. By the time I finish My spiritual housecleaning the only nails predominant will be those I took in my body for My sheep. After they have wept as they remember the first time those nails, after that they have wept, I will show them and remind them speedily that the nails are no longer there, that I have gloriously risen off the cross and that I have overcome satan with My resurrection power over death and My shed blood and that they too will rise up in resurrection power to be My mighty army in these LAST MOMENTS of history. They are those, they are those who would at first stumble over many bodies who have become goats.(see Ps.91:7,8) They will not look back. In the name of Jesus, they will walk forward triumphant to herald My return, WHICH I REPEAT IS CLOSE AT HAND. Satan you shall NOT have My remnant! Out of this remnant shall rise the CHURCH TRIUMPHANT, My retrieved of the lost-the inhabitants of New Jerusalem-My Joy, My Glory FOREVER. SAITH THE LORD.””The new ark of which Tozer speaks will not be on another oxcart.It will be the” Cahal”,the church that the gates of hell cannot prevail against and He will build it,not us.

  170. 100% Zululander Nov 1st 2013

    Its very evident that many folk have been badly hurt by leaders & there is no excuse for what goes on, but the critical question I want to repeat is, how do we respond?
    If the Lord Jesus isn’t in what they do we must be careful Hes definitely in what we do, or say.
    Over the years many folk have left the church with the same complaints & started another & ended up the same

  171. Everything we do and say is leading others in a direction…

    They look at us and they see what we do and what we say…

    They are being led…

    Who are we following? This is the critical question…

    We hear things which we like and we follow them – we agree with them…

    We are all followers…

    So we are all leaders and we are all followers…

    But who are we following and where are we leading those who follow us to?

  172. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    AJHorton….I do not ALLOW people to FOLLOW me.


    I POINT them to Jesus and tell them to FOLLOW HIM IN THE WAY HE WANTS THEM TO GO.


  173. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    A person can give LIP SERVICE to the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE and believe it with their intellect.

    But the EVIDENCE of what a person believes with their whole being is their actions.

    If you say you TRUST GOD, then RELY AND TRUST IN OTHER THINGS……be it people, jobs, knowledge, angels, money, savings accounts, common sense, traditions of men, worldly wisdom, retirement accounts, employers, employees, families, friends….etc etc etc, then the scriptures state that this is IDOLATRY and you are a DOUBLE MINDED PERSON.

    People are only HURT AND WOUNDED because their SHIELD OF FAITH HAS BEEN BROKEN DOWN AND SPLIT UP BETWEEN THEIR gods/idols and the True God.

    The ARMOR OF GOD…is just that…an ARMOR that is placed upon us, and around us by the SPIRIT OF GOD when (WHEN…NOT PERMANENTLY…but WHEN) our FAITH, ALL of our faith for every area of our life is placed IN the Almighty God.

    THIS is called ABIDING IN…….

    When you become a FOLLOWER OF JESUS, you have to GIVE UP/SURRENDER your own understanding of what He has written. You HAVE TO seek and ask Him for HIS understanding…HIS mind….His Spirit to teach you what HE thinks and how HE feels and what HE wants. THIS IS A RELATIONSHIP.

  174. We have no control over whether someone will follow us or not – they just do – instinctively they do – for better or for worse – so it behoves us as Paul said, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ”…

    We are called to lead and we are called to call others to follow…

    Imitate me as I imitate Christ…

  175. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    If you were to imitate Paul, then you would be following Jesus and not Paul!

    He is the one who REBUKED people for following people.

    1Cr 1:12 KJV
    Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

    1Cr 3:4 KJV
    For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

  176. Inspired Nov 1st 2013

    Amen Lightening Storm.
    I learned a long time ago to learn the source.
    So much so that when Andrew posts something he always puts the source of where it came from.
    This shows order to me, yet the same applies to the order I have with the Father, who told me to follow Him.
    This was the same thing that was told to Peter when the Lord rebuked satan in him, which in the Hebrew mindset means follow the first head. the head that gave him revelation as to who Christ was when he asked them all, who do you say that I am and Peter says thou art the Christ, and Yeshua said, blessed are you for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father…..

  177. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    OK – I just deleted a couple comments that are getting too “personal”.

    Enough of that, please.

    Bless you!


  178. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    BTW – to say we need anointed teachers and preachers, “fathers” and shepherds – is totally a ‘NEW TESTAMENT’ approach.

    Not “lords”. Not “NAR” types.

    But simple, anointed teachers, shepherds, elders…

    The need for them is clear as day in NT Scripture.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  179. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    If anyone has the problem of people following them, then I suggest confessing your faults to them, and as well recognize their gifts in Christ and so prefer them over yourself. I recall Paul saying that he was at the end of the procession, the scum of the earth. The only ones who loved him really were those who recognized him, Christ in him, the rest did not hold him up to high regard because he did not exercise authority upon them, they even called him timid. So likewise I think no-one should hold themselves to be above others. Following Paul’s example, because it was a good one.

  180. Carina Nov 1st 2013

    Yes, Andrew. We got your point. But what do we do until we find such shepherds? Submit blindly and sheepishly to whoever is available? Of course, there is a place for godly submission, but did Jesus call us to be trampled upon by wolves?

  181. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    Carina – is your own heart right in this?

    Are you sure the “woundings” have not affected your attitude to ‘ALL’ leaders?

    Leaders have the toughest job on earth. Ask Moses!

    The one thing you can do is get your own heart right.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  182. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    {{ They will not look back. In the name of Jesus, they will walk forward triumphant to herald My return, WHICH I REPEAT IS CLOSE AT HAND. Satan you shall NOT have My remnant! Out of this remnant shall rise the CHURCH TRIUMPHANT, My retrieved of the lost-the inhabitants of New Jerusalem-My Joy, My Glory FOREVER. SAITH THE LORD.””The new ark of which Tozer speaks will not be on another oxcart.It will be the” Cahal”,the church that the gates of hell cannot prevail against and He will build it,not us. }}

    I say amen to this, Dale! Not because I am following you, but because I am following Christ who has shown me the truth of it. God bless. 🙂

  183. Carina Nov 1st 2013

    And Zululander,
    I’m painfully aware of the danger of leaving the visible church and creating a home church environment that reproduces many if not all of the errors and sins in the system one left. Indeed that has happened to many. That’s why I’m not making any decision based on my personal impressions or feelings, and waiting on the Lord to tell me what to do. I certainly would wait for God to heal any wounds in my heart and my husband’s before receiving any people in my home.
    But I think the chance that leaving the visible church could turn wrong is no excuse for staying indefinitely if and when the Lord is calling you out. It hasn’t happened to me yet, at least, I haven’t heard a clear call to leave the system altogether, but I wouldn’t stay if I knew for sure the Lord wanted something different for my life.
    To sum up, I’m waiting on the Lord to tell me how to fulfill the command to gather with other believers. If it’s staying in my current church, so be it. If not, I’ll need to follow Him and not man.

  184. Averyl Nov 1st 2013

    Level playing field needed, every mountain brought low & every valley filled/exalted, giving more honour to those parts of the Body we want to hide away.

    We’re all called to be followers of Christ, – recognising the Church among those we rub shoulders with & teaching what the true Church is & where to find it,(apostolic ministry); teaching the truth in love; telling those we come across about Christ,(evangelists); and speaking God’s anointed Word,(prophets).

    We can take it or leave it!

  185. Averyl Nov 1st 2013

    Oh, & looking after those we’re in contact with, (pastoring).

  186. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    But if “everyone” is an apostle and prophet,

    in practice doesn’t that mean

    we recognize “nobody”

    as any of them?

    The ultimate “tall poppy” syndrome. Kill the leader – or rather make “everyone” leaders – so really no-one is.

    Welcome to the post-modern world.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  187. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    The Holy Spirit doesn’t have a problem with that Andrew.

    There were 12 Apostles and there were many prophets.

    1Cr 14:29-33 KJV Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
    If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
    For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
    And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
    For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

  188. Averyl Nov 1st 2013

    Instead of having exclusive ministries, placing some above others, – inclusive recognises & respects everyone in the Body as having something to offer. Not a nothingness but an allness.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ is our leader, we are His followers.

  189. Lightning Storm Nov 1st 2013

    AMEN….Averyl…EXACTLY what the scriptures tell us when we look at them in WHOLENESS.

  190. ValleyAnt Nov 1st 2013

    There are some truths in the Bible which force our hidden hearts and motivations (i.e. the depth of our loyalty to God) to surface; the issue of authority is one of them and always has been from OT (with people like Korah against Moses) to NT (with people like Judas against Jesus). When God’s say so or prerogative (authority) comes into play, it triggers disagreement and disapproval, because what He says go no matter what anyone wants. He has set many ministries and gifts in the Church (i.e. not firstly the church building but firstly wherever a body of true believers is) some of which are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers; others consist of administrators and deacons, bishops and elders of different types, those who specialize in miracles or healings or different types of warfare against evil spirits, etc. The varieties of gifts are many; they are not all spelled out in Scriptures but are all included in it. We can’t box in God’s sovereignty or gifts or Word; those who harden their hearts against His sovereign choices regarding how His Church (the Body of Christ which operates for His sake and not ours) works and don’t repent will have only themselves to blame in the end.

    Before Jesus came to earth, the ministers and Israelis lived in relative peace. When He came, peace departed (though He was the “Prince of peace”– Isa. 9). He came with authority primarily (authority to declare, to do, to act, to deliver, to heal, to die, to rise from the dead, etc.), “for to us, a Child is born… and the government (the say so, the right to execute God’s will) will be on His shoulders” (Isa. 9). His authority was the very first thing that set Him apart from the ministers and [Christians] of His time, not His miracles or healings or anything else: “He taught them as one having authority and not as the rulers and scribes.”

    The ministers of the day (i.e. those who believed they understood the Scriptures more than Jesus, the Word, Himself) hated Jesus’ authority and asked Him, “By what authority do you do these things?” You would think that they’d be happy that He was doing “these things” at all since “these things” were good things. “Who does He think He is?” Today, human nature often feels the same about different people who don’t seem worthy of whatever it is we hate about them: “Who do they think they are?” It is always a question of authority. We only realize this when we look closely at our own lives, at the lives of others, and at the Bible. Authority is the beginning, because God’s beginning is authority, and everything revolves around it. As I said before, there will be monumental warfare in the heavenlies regarding authority these days. There always has been, but ‘these days’, as the Lord comes with His authority (primarily through His ministers and His five-faceted Ministry), the rebellion will rise to meet it. Rebellion rarely ever rears its head until authority shows up (go through the Bible and through history and take note of this). Christians who are wise will see this before the time and will save themselves from being waved disdainfully out of God’s presence in the last Day. He is high and lifted up and will not contend with those who contend with Him and His clearly revealed will as written in His Word.

    Andrew Strom, it’s important (if you don’t already know this) that you know what debates to invest time in and which ones not to. Some people will not acknowledge the truth which is even in their own lives (because the true and undefiled truth of covering and five-fold ministry and everything else in the Bible exists within everyone’s life, because God “has set eternity in our hearts” and made us three-part beings so that “the Word is near to [each one], in [our] hearts and in [our] mouths that [we] may do it”). There are people even in churches who are not going to grow but who sap the energy and take the time of ministers in the church away from those who can benefit. Christians who base their beliefs and decisions more on people’s errors and mistakes (e.g. the prophetic movement, the NAR, the charismatic movement, etc.) than on God’s own Word should be noted and addressed differently from those who are able (humble enough) to believe that God’s Word is truth and never changes.

  191. Averyl Nov 1st 2013

    I think the only ones who have a problem with this concept are those who see themselves as special, superior, or wanting a leadership role.
    We need to humble ourselves & esteem others as better than ourselves.

  192. marilyn Nov 1st 2013

    Really you guys?! Listening to Tozer, knowing now that he hated his wife and people, how is that different than listening to Todd Bently? Listen to the “prophecy” of Tozer and saying, “Yes, we shouldn’t follow after man, just Jesus.” That’s crazy! Don’t judge Todd Bently by his behavior and his hating his wife, disregarding his family and playing around with a staff member, listen to his “prophecy” but don’t follow him??????

    Tiny, tiny. Tozer thinks he has a prophecy, everyone latches on to it and then goes into straining out the gnat and swallowing a camel with going on and on about following man or not , authority and who we will give it to, leaders or no leaders, “I only follow Jesus.” Even questioning man if “we are supposed to just submit to this one or that one. Yowza! Did Tozer only “hear what Jesus was saying” in Mathew 23, or did he not hear what He was saying when it pertained to how to treat his wife and family and others in the body?

    We are the church if we belong to Jesus. He is able to save to the uttermost. Ask Him if He will take from you all that is keeping you from Him. We don’t need to go on and on about what this man Tozer had to say and hold fast that it is prophecy. Shouldn’t we spend our time instead in prayer and Scripture and asking Him to give us an understanding of who we are to be and then allow Him to use us?

    Do you really think God will withhold revival from us if we don’t get our act together? He is working in each one of us as long as we draw breath, both to will and to do His good work.

    You have studied revival Andrew. Didn’t one start with a couple of women praying in a barn? I have several friends that are willing to pray for a move of God in our churches and in the hearts of those that need him. We are seeing the small churches surge. Not just in attendance but in a desire to read His word to find out more about Him and are hearing Him speak into their lives. Some husbands we have been praying for for years are now coming to church and are now part of the body. Kids that have been on drugs for years are now coming to church with their parents and we are seeing lives changed and families restored. God is moving.

  193. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    Andrew 🙂 you are making me smile. I hear what you’re saying and am sorry for the frustration, and I think you are handling it very well in my opinion. But what I understand is that the church isn’t run like a business or school, it is a spiritual house, quite different from the world. Opposite to the world actually.

    When you say lead, maybe you are thinking in the traditional church building paradigm/structure..? Whereas others have in mind another kind of paradigm where “tall” leaders, as such, aren’t needed. Even so, at the last church I attended for a while, I was asked to volunteer doing the vacuuming and ‘submitted’ to doing that with no problem, and I was only visiting there for a season. Also went out street witnessing with their group, and someone had to organize it each time so I guess they were leading it in that case, and I had no problem going along with their plans. All that to say, when you talk about leadership as such, do you mean in practical things like that? I can’t picture it where spiritually speaking anybody needs to be put on a pedestal or more authoritative than the rest……whoever Jesus is speaking or ministering through I will gladly submit to Him in them, even if it is through a child or a donkey. In some He will be manifesting more than others, so I guess we will naturally be drawn to sit at their feet more often, but without making a ‘big deal’ out of it. I know that when Jesus is speaking, I have no desire to speak at all, I fall silent and just enjoy the “music to my ears”. Does that make sense? It’s hard to explain it in writing.

    I have noticed that when I truly see/hear JESUS in someone (a rare privilege), it doesn’t make me put them on a pedestal, what it activates in me is LOVE. The desire to feed, protect, make sure they have everything they need etc, because they are so meek and exuding His love, unselfconsciously and sacrificially, and they are acquainted with grief, they know suffering. (Being a woman and mother the way I express love tends to be in a ‘mothery’ way.) In such cases, I sometimes feel I could die for them, I guess because they first love me.

  194. watchful Nov 1st 2013

    Looking at the scriptures in their WHOLENESS……..very well put, Lightning Storm. I will try to keep that in mind more, and of course to do that we need to be well acquainted with them!

  195. Andrew Nov 1st 2013

    Sadly I have come to the end of investing time in this conversation. There is no point.

    ValleyAnt – you have had great things to say here.

    Blessings to all.

    Peace out.

    Andrew Strom

  196. Averyl Nov 2nd 2013

    Watchful, – Yes, just as we’re getting away from the OT Temple as the place of worship, from church as a place to go, – and into us being the Church.
    Likewise, we need to get away from the OT practice of having a priesthood & laity, with the priesthood of all believers replacing it.

  197. Andrew Nov 2nd 2013

    That’s right.

    No apostles needed.

    No anointed preachers needed.

    No Book of Acts needed.

    No Revivals needed.

    No ‘Body’ needed.

    Just me and Jesus.

    Hmmmm. Something wrong with this picture??

  198. watchful Nov 2nd 2013

    Amen Averyl, beautiful, right on the mark, bless you.

    Sorry you are not understanding, Andrew, it’s hard to explain, but that’s not what we’re saying. It’s just the difference between flesh and spirit, that is all, a very fine line, but the difference is like night and day. I know these conversations can be wearying, and pray the peace and comfort of the Lord to you.

  199. Andrew Nov 2nd 2013

    I used to believe just like you guys do.

    EXACTLY the same.

    For YEARS.

    I did not believe in leaders or apostles or Body. I was 7 years totally outside the system. I mean TOTALLY.

    And then I repented and renounced “REBELLION”. And my views changed overnight.

    All I hear you repeating is the same tired stuff we all used to repeat over and over in the OOC scene.

    It does not work – it is unbiblical – and goes nowhere. It is totally “anti” the New Testament church.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  200. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    The fundamental flaw in all modern revivalism as well as all modern evangelicalism which has been universally embraced by virtually every church leader for the past 200 years is a false view of the end and purpose of the Christian life . This false view is rooted in early American Puritanism.
    This fundamental flaw is so pervasive and universally accepted that no one even recognizes how it has devastated and redefined modern Christianity.

    What is that fundamental flaw I speak of?
    It is that the end and purpose of the Christian life is to glorify God by becoming isolated specimens of purity and power? The biblical apostolic end and purpose of the Christian life is to glorify God IN LOVING RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOD AND OTHERS.

    The former leads to the bogus and unbiblical view of sin as a hinderenece to obtaining personal purity and power rather than the biblical view of sin which is a lack of love in relationships with God and nieghbour.
    To the former purity is an issue of personal religious cleanliness of heart and mind. To the latter personal purity is the measure if sacrificial love in relationships. In leanness to the latter is selfishness and a lack of love.

    To the former the focus and goal is on self and the purity of self . To the latter the focus and goal is away from self towards loving God and others.

    To the former salvation is defined as deliverance from irreligiosity . The goal is personal devotion, personal purity and personal power. The end is what is important. The process is a neccessary evil.

    To the latter salvation is entering into an imperfect but loving relationship with God and others . To the latter the emphasis is on the process and the everyday walk with God and on ever increasing love in those imperfect relationships .

    This explains why for almost 250 years the most devoted Christians in the US and other English colonies could be in the middle if “revivals” and deep personal devotion to their Christian faith AND KEEP SLAVES AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
    Personal purity and power is what is important not personal loving relationships with Fellow man (slaves)!!!
    These are the roots of modern Christianity !!!
    These enormous differences in perspective have radically redefined biblical Christianity in the modern world.
    The only hope for the modern church is to renounce this bogus spirituality of making the pursuit of personal purity and power the goal of our faith.

    This has no foundation in the apostolic faith of the biblical fathers:

    But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Timothy 1:5 NASB)

  201. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    AW Tozer along with virtually every other popular modern church reformer, prophet, revivalist , preacher or teacher was steeped in this Puritanical view of spirituality.

    This is why he can without any difficulty actually look forward to the day when Gods people would break any personal loving relationships with their fellow evangelical believers and isolate themselves into a partnership with other like minded believers where personal purity and power take precedence over laying down their lives in sacrificial , forbearing love relationships with less than perfect people.

    God help us all when love becomes optional in the house of God .
    Then the glory will truly have departed!!!
    No love NO GLORY!!!
    Ichabod is a house of so called purity and devotion to God WITH NO LOVE!!!!!

  202. ValleyAnt Nov 2nd 2013

    Dale, the prophetic word you typed out says, “MY LITTLE WILLOWS WILL BECOME MIGHTY OAKS!” You continue, “The new ark of which Tozer speaks will not be on another oxcart.It will be the ‘Cahal’,the church that the gates of hell cannot prevail against and He will build it, not us.” Amen. The Lord’s priest who are sanctified (loyal) to Him alone will be worthy to carry the Ark of His Presence and bring Life to those who are dead and those who are dying. The last day ministry, ministries, and ministers will be for a glorious people and will be beyond the reach of nay-sayers, doubters, and the unbelieving.

    Zulu, you’re right. Unfortunately, many whom the churches have hurt refuse to be healed and to return (be restored to relationship with the Lord). I can definitely relate to having been abused or neglected by the churches. Right on the heels of an encounter with God, I sped to the nearest church, longing to meet with Him; but He wasn’t there. I’ve received much greater abuse from church Christians than any other entity. But without forgiveness, there is no remission of sins; without forgiving, we cannot progress. Bitterness does not produce Life; we must ask God for Grace to heal from hurts and betrayal or we’ll be swallowed up the same Death that swallows those who hurt us.

    AJH, you said rightly that we are all leaders and we are all followers. God seeks followers who are leaders and leaders who will follow Him. He found this in David and called his as a leader because of it; from being a leader who followed (whose life was led by the needs of the sheep), God transformed David into being a follower of Him so he could correctly lead Israel: “He also chose David His servant, and took him from the sheepfolds; from following the ewes that had young He brought him, to shepherd Jacob His people,
    and Israel His inheritance” (Ps. 78:70). To the extent that we follow God, others are able to follow us safely.

    Lightning Storm, AJH is saying that we are examples to people and that if we follow Christ, then people who follow us will be following Christ. The passage he gave from Paul summarizes what he is saying. If you waited before choosing your words, you would always agree with what the Holy Spirit is presently saying and not just what the Bible said thousands of years ago. Our words are to be alive now, not just borrowed from words that were alive in the past. “The letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life”, therefore Jesus was able to say, “The words I speak to you are spirit (alive), and [therefore] they are (bring) Life (health)” (Jn. 6). Amen.

    Averyl, God makes men what they are; this truth is only disputed by those who can’t accept His prerogative to do as He wills. I have rarely heard people from third world countries argue that leadership is not needed in the churches; it’s always people in western nations who argue against five-fold ministers and leaders, because it is in western nations that being special is the pinnacle of achievement. Averyl, when people meet me, they see me through the lenses of western society: “He seems to be somebody, therefore, he thinks he is better than us. He is an attractive man, therefore, he is full of himself. He has talents, therefore, he is proud. He is well-spoken, therefore, he is arrogant. He is strong, therefore, he mocks the weak. He is intelligent, therefore, he disdains the simple. He seems wealthy, therefore, he has no love for the poor. He seems important, therefore, he looks with contempt on everyone else.” And so on. But these people are wrong (they have to figure it out themselves; I won’t stand around trying to convince them to receive who God has made me to be). If you resist leaders because you are always remembering that those who are in positions of power usually abuse their positions, then you aren’t basing your decisions on God’s Word but on your emotions.

    Marilyn, amen. God is moving, And it is never wise to lift a person up when we don’t know the whole story. Many revere Abraham Lincoln but don’t know a great deal of shady areas in his life. We take what is good and reject the bad, otherwise we make people gods and then wonder why we hate those who have positions (in our hearts) and who seem special (to us). To add what someone brought to mind today: we talk much about how we need revival, which is good since we need a name to put on it, but what we are really saying we need is the Lord. He ‘revives’ what was alive and died (Christians), but He ‘vives’ (gives Life to) what is dead and was never alive (the world). We should pray for the entrance of the Lord or the manifestation of His Kingdom. He told us to pray for His Kingdom to come as that covers revival, reformation, and everything that is good and comes from God but that doesn’t fit into those categories. The word ‘revival’ restricts our meanings and probably greatly constricts our prayers for it, but it’s a start.

    Andrew, I have learned to hear what the Lord is saying in the given instance. His responses to nay-saying, fear, unbelief, doubt, and all things that oppose the entrance of His Kingdom and stand in the way of God’s will are too many and too wise for me to write down. If things weren’t so serious, I would get myself an excellent stomach workout from laughing at what some say that they think is wise but that the Lord has, in His superior wisdom, preempted through not just the Word but in nature, in all laws (physics, mathematics, attraction, etc.), in psychology, in satan and the demonic, etc. In other words, the arguments here that the Bible doesn’t support aren’t supported anywhere else but by ignorant or prideful man. Even satan and the demonic know that God’s Word is truth: while the Pharisees denied that Jesus was the Son of God (prideful man) and many others weren’t sure whether or not He was God (ignorant man), ALL the demons and principalities and satan knew and acknowledged that He was indeed the Truth and the very One He claimed to be. Amen. So, I will share bits and pieces and hope that those who oppose the Word and the Spirit are doing so in ignorance and not in pride, because in ignorance there’s greater hope of redemption.

  203. ValleyAnt Nov 2nd 2013

    Barry, thanks for that exhortation and the passage: “If someone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20 NASB).” If you read John’s gospel and his epistles and Revelation very closely, you will begin to notice that of all the apostles who wrote, he sounded most like the Lord Himself with his practical but loving wisdom: “If someone says, ‘I love God’ and hates (does not practice love toward) his brother, he is a liar (he is not true, whole, no integrity, is false, a pretender, deceived); for the one who does not (practice) love (toward) his brother whom he has seen, cannot love (be loyal to) God whom he has not seen.” Amen, John. Amen. The wisdom in that will continue into eternity; it cannot be refuted. Barry, you are also right about the roots of modern Christianity as connected to personal purity (personal goodness) and not loving relationships with one’s fellowman. Today, Christians believe they are good but don’t have to do good; it’s real deception. “The goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” As you’ve said, I’ve seen that a lack of Love hinders a lot of answers to prayers in the lives of Christians. The Bible doesn’t explain this mystery in its intricacy, but, as with most mysteries in the Bible, it gives us a small view into the fact that when Love lacks, answers to prayers and many other blessings are held up: after telling wives to submit to husbands, Peter says, “Husbands, likewise, dwell with [your wives] with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered” (1Pet. 3). Such a tiny snapshot of the fact that a lack of Love hinders blessings and God’s Grace and favor… but it is a mystery, and the Bible rarely ever explains mysteries but leaves that up to the Holy Spirit who is the Teacher or Expositor of the Word.

    There is a God who is able to keep from falling those who have run for their lives to Him and have chosen to cling to Him in obedience and humility and not let go. To Him alone be glory (reverence and honor and worship and obedience) both now and always. Amen.

  204. Averyl Nov 2nd 2013

    Valley Ant, – It would be interesting to know who you would choose to be your leader in the city I live in & how you would go about finding him.

  205. Thanks Watchful again, Carina and others for your contributions.

    Andrew S -Everyone here should be entitled to a view and should not be condemned by the owner of the site if it does line up with his/her past actual experience of the topic in question. We will agree with some folk and disagree with some folk, but it should all make us seek what the WORD actually says on the issue at hand. No-one has the full picture. We are all on a journey, all at different stages of that journey, and each journey is often different.

    Moving on………….Two different people wrote:
    1.This idea of “special” leaders invalidates the priesthood of all believers and puts us back under the law.
    2.Doesn’t it seem that we start to veer slightly off course if we think too much in terms of dividing up the body into leaders and followers, rather than in terms of the whole Body.

    I agree with these 2 contributors because God is preparing HIS Bride, the collection of believers who remain faithful to Him and His Word. The tares and wheat will grow side by side, whether believers are actively in a structured church environment or para-church/house church environment, café church, grass hut church or whatever – God is not overly concerned with that -only the state of our consecrated heart and obedience to HIS word. In some instances we will need to depart from the increasing apostasy and we will have recognised it in our midst already.

    Below is an interpretation of another writer with regard to the NT Church and how it operated:

    “There is confusion over the structure and function of a Biblical N.T. church. Remember that as the apostles followed the Spirit’s directives HE did amazing things to wrest the population’s attention. And then as the people listened to the apostles they preached in power – which means that the Spirit gave the apostles the words to speak, and empowered those Words in the listener’s hearts/spirit. When the people came together, the Spirit of God performed more miracles (through the obedient apostles) to prove His testimony through His servants, the apostles.

    The ekklesia – just like Jesus’ first ekklesia group- was a simple 2 tiered structure. GOD is on top of every member – and every member under the authority of God’s Holy Spirit. No in-betweens.
    The apostles had no personal authority over the members. They had simply already learned what God wanted them to teach to the other members. The Spirit backed the apostles – as they remained obedient to HIM.

    The apostles taught the basic doctrine of Christ but more importantly they taught the new members how to hear and recognise the Holy Spirit (they were not baptised into the Holy Spirit just for salvation). The Scriptures actually show how to Locate, Access, Recognise and Discern the Holy Spirit voice of God. The N.T. church meetings are full of ALL the members ‘hearing’ the Holy Spirit and those same meetings are full of ALL the members walking in the gifts of the Spirit.

    Thus, it was the Holy Spirit who directed the events that took place in every meeting. And it was the Holy Spirit who appointed each member into what role HE wanted them to perform in the group. No-one had to wear a title -each person’s place of operation was known to everyone by the Holy Spirit in each person and therefore operated quite naturally. No big deal.

    Every role in the church/group/ekklesia was a ministering to the members – under the authority and leading by the Holy Spirit.
    In the New Testament Church, God became the personal leader of every member. That is His desire and that is his aim, and it has not changed.

    So God is calling a WHOLE body together moving under Christ.
    Just as a human body’s parts move with the head at the top,
    each part is as important to propel the human body forward.
    The arm does not have more authority over the leg, just has a different action to propel the human body forward.

    God bless all.

  206. Lightning Storm Nov 2nd 2013

    AM……You wrote a beautiful and easily understood description of the Body’s Life in the Spirit.
    And also explained how important it is for each individual to know how to Walk by the Spirit in submission to His authority and personal instructions.

    Thank you.

  207. Andrew Nov 2nd 2013

    I agree with all that.

    I just don’t agree that the early church was “leaderless”.

    Nor should today’s be.

    But oh well. I guess I am outvoted.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom

  208. Penny Nov 2nd 2013

    Wow having waded my way through much of the above conversation I am staggered by the very diverse ‘opinions’. I believe Jesus only had one!

    Our primary role as believers is to worship the Lord and as we do that from the heart, from experience, He clearly directs our steps. As We worship Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, He truly leads us into places where we can minister to others. That can be within the existing structures, where there is much need, or taking a leaf out of the ‘introvert’ near the beginning of this conversation, by street preaching which has radically changed him and will no doubt lead to greater things.

    Andrew, congratulations on your infinite patience and handling of this whole thing. Guess I would have ‘punched’ many of them long ago!!


  209. watchful Nov 2nd 2013

    Barry, myself I am not American and don’t know anything about American Puritanism. Why choose one over the other….don’t we need both personal holiness before the Lord as well as to love our neighbours as ourselves, I don’t believe we can have one without the other..

    I was not in agreement with Tozer’s “rejoicing” at the situation in the above prophecy, my attitude is very different from that. The history of his personal life that has come out, if true, to me only highlights to me why we should not follow a fallible man and that I was right not to bow to his image. But if I went to his church and he asked me to do the vacuuming, I would do what I could to help out. But if he expected me to treat him with deference and partiality because he always sits in the best seat, that I hope I would not do, because God is no respecter of persons.

  210. I have to cast my vote with Andrew.
    I have noticed in the posts of those who deny leadership, that they only define leaders as being tyrannical, overbearing, demanding men who desire to lord over the rest. The anti-leadership cannot see a leader as being loving, caring, concerned men who are willing to lay down their lives for those that would follow them. The true Biblical leader is one who is also led by the Holy Spirit. He does not demand total, blind submission to himself, but rather is showing submission to God by example, and then says,
    imitate me, as I imitate Christ.

  211. watchful Nov 2nd 2013

    Wow, did that just come from these little fingertips?….it’s not my wisdom, but the Lord’s……my flesh is just as tempted to go along with the status quo as anybody’s…….but can’t we see by that how the very way we set up “church services” is perverting the ways of God and contrary to his word? We need to have our minds renewed by the washing of the water of His word..

  212. Those who are anti-leadership. Can you not see yourself as being led by total submission to the Holy Spirit, in a close relationship with God, walking a holy lifestyle, loving those around you, and then lovingly showing others in a group setting how they can do the same?

  213. 100% Zululander Nov 2nd 2013

    I follow the situations in the Arab world closely & I have a pastor friend in Minya Egypt.
    Suffering/persecution//pain etc etc does one of two thing to christians. It makes them more like the Lord or just angry & hurt & sometimes retaliatory.
    All these things never harmed the church where there was forgiveness & love. In fact, persecution was probably responsible for the greatest spreading of the Gospel since Pentecost.
    Holding hurts mostly comes from pride. “I don’t deserve this” or “who does he think he is” etc etc.
    Get on the web sites of Barnabus fund or any of the many sites where groups of people (all with leaders) are ministering in these places & read some testimonies. You will cry. You will forgive quickly & be healed.
    You will also not hear them bad mouth their persecutors. THAT’S being filled with the Spirit of God & the love of God.

  214. Inspired Nov 2nd 2013

    Penny writes,
    Andrew, congratulations on your infinite patience and handling of this whole thing. Guess I would have ‘punched’ many of them long ago!!

    This is precisely the attitude that people do not want to go into the church system and have to deal with.
    Perhaps all this has come about to test Andrews patience, which as you have stated he showing that he has. In fact he dealt with a situation in this very thread that gave me a little hope that there may be some genuine Spirit filled “leaders”.
    Many of the people who post here have come from abusive churches, if you like being abused then my hat is off to you. That is NOT to say all are like that.
    People should lead by example. Apostles, build churches, prophets tell the understanding of scriptures, unless it is low level prophesying and someone says that an earthquake is coming. Evangelist tell the GOOD NEWS. Teaches expound on the scriptures and pastors, those poor people are worth their weight in gold. They have to pick up sheep that have been beaten, and throw them over their shoulders, while sheep crap is going down their back and apply the balm or hind cream to them. That is the way I understand “leader” ship of a church setting, as well as “EQUIPPING” the saints for a good work.
    Some of the churches where I live believe that if people do not pay their “Tithes”, then they are at liberty to go to their house and knock on their door to retrieve them. They make their congregation sit separately, men on one side and women on the other. They are anti t.v., anti computer, anti working for anyone who does not fit their idea of what a “Christian” should look like. They do the letter of the law, and that is it, with exception that they meet on Sunday and eat pork. I heard of them yelling at a 3 year old child for the devil to come out of him, because he was not feeling well. So tell me, do any of you want to come and be a part of these churches?

  215. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    Watchful- personal holiness in the Bible IS LOVE!
    Purity is love. Righteousness is love. Impurity and unholiness is love.
    We abide in the purity and holiness by loving God and our neighbor.

    This is the fundamental flaw I am sounding the trumpet of The Lord over my friend.
    The church see holiness, purity , righteousness and obedience to God AS SOMETHING OTHER THAN LOVE.

    By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10 NASB) love is the evidence of who we belong to and whose child we are. This “love” is that we place the highest priority on the value of relationship with God and others . The devils kids are often spiritual, powerful, devoted- yet they don’t value love above all else. They don’t value Gods people above all else

    We abide in Jesus by love “if you love one another you will abide ” Jn 15 which means we don’t have to wait for some supposed promised future outpouring or revival to enjoy the fullness of Jesus – we just have to start to look at those right next to is with the eyes of Jesus love

    We will moarn when we see him and he will have to dry our tears as children of God Because we have missed a million opportunities to abide in Him by loving the people right next to us while we were pursuing a greater outpouring.

    God is love. He who abides in love abides in Him and He in them 1 Jn 4

  216. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    Sorry meant to write “impurity unholiness and unrighteousness is A LACK OF LOVE”

  217. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    Sin is all lawlessness.
    Love is the fulfillment of the law.
    Therefore sin is a lack of love!

    Sin is falling short of the glory of God.
    Therefore sin is falling short of Gods love.

    Sin is impurity .
    Impurity is a failure to love.
    And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (Mark 7:20-23 NASB)

    Therefore purity IS LOVE!

    We have a fundamental misconception in the church that sin is something other than a lack of love.
    This is why we isolate ourselves from relationship in order to maintain holiness- the very antithesis of biblical holiness.

    Biblical holiness is forgiving others, bearing with the sins of others, enduring pain at the hands of others, sacrificing our rights for the love of others.

    The greatest act of personal hotlines in Jesus was laying down His life in love for others.
    This is the glory of God! HIS LOVE.
    We glory God and live in constant revival , holiness, purity and power WHEN WE LOVE!

  218. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    In Isaiah 6 he gives us his testimony of his personal vision of the holiness of God.
    He hears the Seraphim covering their eyes and feet and shouting out continually,

    Up to this point Isaiah was a loyal, devoted puritanical priest of God.
    Yet when He sees Gods holiness what is Isaiah’s response?

    Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” (Isaiah 6:5 NASB)

    Isaiah’s response is that he recognizes his UNCLEAN LIPS!
    He recognizes his own lack of love in what he and the people around him have spoken.
    Jesus said lips become unclean by the unloving things they have spoken.
    Isaiah thought he was being and living holy until he compared himself with Gods holiness – which is ALWAYS REFLECTED IN HIS PERSONAL PURITY OF LOVE!

    God is Holy and God is love ARE SYNONYMOUS CONCEPTS IN THE BIBLE.

  219. Boydbob Nov 2nd 2013

    Andrew – I’ve changed my own views on a lot of things over the years.

    I too, wanted to avoid “churches” and do home meetings only, but I’ve come to realize that even though “meeting from house to house,” is a good thing, It’s not intended to be a replacement for the church itself, mainly because God’s pattern is to have appointed, anointed, and responsible to God, leaders over the flock.

    God first chooses and prepares a man, and then sends him forth to lead and care for His flock. That man is responsible to God for what he says and what he does. Without that anointed leader, the wolves will devour the flock.

    It’s true that there are many false shepherds, but Jesus promised, “My sheep will hear my voice, and a false shepherd they will not follow.”

    If we are listening and prepared to obey, we will hear when the voice of Jesus speaks through a true shepherd. Too many today want to be leaders but are not called to be leaders.
    As Moses said to Korah, “God has brought you near to serve Him …. and do you seek the priesthood also?” Num 16:10

    Many are gifted, but until God says otherwise, I am just another sheep, looking for a church to be planted in, looking for a Pastor who knows, believes, and teaches the Word of God.
    That can be hard when so many subscribe to serious error, usually because we don’t understand that God is GOD. He is “a friend that sticketh closer than a brother,” but He is NOT our “good buddy,” and He loves us because of something in Him, not because of anything He sees in us.

  220. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    The Ten Commandments reflect and demonstrate the holiness of God.
    The first 4 commandments reflect love towards God and the last 6 reflect love towards men.
    Jesus said all the law is summed up in love God and love neighbour as self.

    The theme of book of Leviticus is the holiness of God. The law WAS THE SUPREME TREATISE ON THE HOLINESS OF GOD .

    Since the law is love- and the law is the holiness of God in stone-
    The holiness OF God is His love.

    The ONLY way to demonstrate personal divine holiness in our lives IS BY LOVING GOD AND OTHERS.

    Holiness and unholiness is ALWAYS demonstrated in how we treat the people right next to us. In how we speak to them and ABOUT THEM.

    In how much we love them.
    Be holy because I am holy – means “Be loving because I am loving”

  221. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NASB)

    Since holiness IS LOVE- and since love is being patient, forgiving, suffering wrongs, bears all things and endures all things –
    THERE CAN BE NO HOLINESS APART FROM LIVING WITH unholy, unloving, impure , selfish, sinful people!!!!

    Holiness can NEVER be in isolation !

    Therefore to abandon an unloving self centered church is to LACK HOLINESS!

  222. Barry Schmidt Nov 2nd 2013

    Jesus blood makes us holy by propitiating and forgiving our sin/unholiness which is our lack of love.
    The ONLY foundation of fellowship and relationship among unholy and unloving people is THE BLOOD OF JESUS – plus nothing .

    The blood makes us holy. Makes our unlove as if we had perfect divine love.
    But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, (1 Corinthians 1:30 NASB)

    Imputed holiness through the blood is the basis and foundation of our relationships with others and personal sacrificial love is the experiential demonstration of the holiness of God in our everyday lives.

  223. doug p Nov 2nd 2013
  224. marilyn Nov 2nd 2013

    Thank you ValleyAnt. How refreshing and am thanking God for His gifting He has placed in you for the Body.
    I agree with your words Barry, sin is a lack of love. And we abide in Jesus by love. Sin is lawlessness.
    Agree with what you wrote AM. No one does have the whole picture. That’s why we need each other.
    Penny, you wrote out what is in my heart also. Keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith, and we will be well used by Him. As we draw near to Him He will draw near to us. It was all made so very simple. Afterall, He has to communicate with the likes of us!

    When Paul greeted each group of believers He always thanked God, giving Him full acknowledgment that they were believers because God had revealed Himself to them.
    “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.” Rom. 1:8

    “I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in Him in all speech and all knowledge—-even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—–so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Cor. 1:4-9

    “For our boast is this: the testimony of our conscience that we behaved in the world with simplicity and godly sincerity, not by earthly wisdom but by the grace of God, and supremely so toward you. For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and acknowledge and I hope you will fully acknowledge—–just as you did partially acknowledge us, that on the day of our Lord Jesus you will boast of us as we will boast of you.” 2 Cor. 1:12-14

    Eph. 1:15-23 is too long to print, but such words of encouragement to the Church. Starts out by thanking God because he had heard of their faith.

    Phil. 1:3-11 too long to write out, but starts by thanking God for their partnership in the gospel, and that he is “sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.”

    Col. 1:3-14 “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints…”

    1 Thess. 1: 2-10 “We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your works of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Each greeting from Paul was thanking God for the faith of those he was addressing, for the manifestation of Christ in their lives, and encouraging them that Christ would continue working in them until the day of completion. What encouragement that is!!! When God calls leaders to lead His flock it always looks and feels the same. God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will have it no other way. Man tries to reason with us and keeps urging us to stop doing this and start doing thus. Leaders called by God lead us to see the work HE is doing in us and that HE is able to complete the task. “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:22

  225. It is good that we all DON’T agree here all the time -it is healthy. I would imagine the Jews in the synagogue debating back and forth points of Scripture and practice all the time. We learn from each other -iron against iron -we rub off the hard edges and preconceived notions and unlearn learnt practices and traditions of men. We are also at different stages on our road to Heaven.

    Some of the comments reflect past inherited ‘forms’ of thought about mostly the Roman styled church -thanks to King Constantine and cronies. That is a natural progression and understandable.

    But lets take a look how the world is forced to DO CHURCH:
    -if you live in parts of India, having a cross on a church building and turning up on Sunday means the church might be burnt down and the pastors might be shot (View Orissa story).

    On a recent trip to Indonesia Christian Churches were being burnt down in Lombok and 300,000 Christians have been murdered in Indonesia to date.

    Persecution of Christians is still as strong in modern day China as in the “Heavenly Man’ days.

    I visited a (USA) church in Aden, Yemen where several Americans and one NZ couple worked. The congregation was only them and their living quarters had been bombed the week before I arrived. Yemeni converts have to be smuggled out of the country for their safety.

    I travelled in the Emirates to the edge of the desert and met the only (Bangladeshi) Christian for hundreds of miles. I guess he was the whole five fold package then!!

    So long as we maintain obedience to Jesus and His word as (our authority), keeping that Word in its entirety, nothing added or subtracted, abide by the commandments, ensuring we love our neighbours and have daily communication with the Holy Spirit, then all else we do will flow out from that, wherever we are in the world and whatever the state of that world is. It is SIMPLE.

    God bless all and enjoy each other’s comments whether we agree or not. It is all part of the learning………………

  226. Lightning Storm Nov 2nd 2013

    Dear Barry…..Your words are truth.

    BUT, with human love, each person has a different idea of what love looks like. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with the flesh being in charge instead of the Holy Spirit having FULL CONTROL of a person…or a group.

    QUOTE: a very GOOD quote, too
    The ONLY way to demonstrate personal divine holiness in our lives IS BY LOVING GOD AND OTHERS.

    Barry be sure to proclaim that this LOVE that is talked about in scripture is NOT HUMAN LOVE, but DIVINE LOVE. As it is written in GAL 5 and 1Cor 13.

    The ONLY way that love is HOLINESS, is if it is DIVINE LOVE FLOWING THROUGH US while we are COMPLETELY POSSESSED/CONTROLLED by the Spirit of God.

    HIS LOVE IS HOLY…..not ours. Therein, lies the problem in the church organizations and where people controlling people comes into play.
    The flesh profits nothing ……but DESTROYS.

    And to tell you the truth, I have not found many believers who know how to Walk by the Spirit 24/7.
    The majority don’t even agree that they MUST lay down EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR LIFE in order to Walk by the Spirit 24/7……..which means NOT making your own decisions, but laying down your will in exchange for God’s will in EVERY DECISION. (not just the “big” decisions, but EVERY decision)

  227. Inspired Nov 2nd 2013

    Amen Lightening Storm.
    If you find your life/god, you will lose it but if you lose your life/god, you will find it.

    As for leaders, authority is only so, when the power of it can be traced to the author of all authority.
    Power through misaligned judgment is chaos.

  228. GaryB Nov 2nd 2013

    I agree with all that.

    I just don’t agree that the early church was “leaderless”.

    Nor should today’s be.

    But oh well. I guess I am outvoted.

    Blessings to all,

    Andrew Strom quote……………………

    When Heaven is voting for you, you come away with the majority. 🙂

    The scriptural truth you’ve shared is the final authority no matter what men think.


  229. Below is part of an article which is very appropriate to all the topics that have come through on this website about the future of the ‘visible’ church and all its woes. It reflects back to Saul and David and through these verses in Samuel it gives you the prototype of what is ahead.

    Fall of the House of Saul – Moriel Ministries

    We see in 1 Samuel 28:6 that God stopped giving light to King Saul; He stopped hearing King Saul. Saul’s leadership was at this point totally backslidden, and had become treacherous. When leadership backslides, something else happens: God stops speaking to that leader or those leaders.

    God let Saul go on and on and on while David was growing stronger. This is one recurrent principle you will see in God’s dealing with His people. He spends a long time getting something new ready, focusing more on quality than on quantity. Once the quality has been founded, then the quantity comes. God will not allow the old thing to fall until He judges that the new thing is ready to take its place.

    God does not remove Saul all at once; not until David is ready to take over – and by David we don’t simply mean David himself but his men as well, the outcasts of Israel whom God had trained up in the wilderness. Then and only then did Saul fall. In the same way, we will not see large denominations fall overnight. They fall progressively for a time, and then something comes which precipitates their going into a nosedive. God will keep them in place until something new is ready to take over.

    The Philistines knew that David did no wrong and at least wanted to behave honourably toward him. Saul also knew that David did no wrong. Many people with Saul knew David did no wrong but were out to get him anyway.

    When the world, the lost, and the unsaved, have more integrity than does the church, it is a sick thing. It was a sick thing, when prosecutors brought down Jim Bakker. Why? Because the hireling pastors of America did not have the courage or integrity to do it first. So the world, knowing he was corrupt, showed more integrity than the church. We see this occur time and time again.

    The last phase for which God is waiting is for the house of Saul to go too far. At what point have they gone too far? When they go into the occult. We already se this today with high flyer evangelists, false prophets and false teachers in the church!

    Saul’s armies continued to follow him. Even people who knew Saul was wrong, such as his own sons, continued to maintain their loyalty to him. In the same way, even people who know these churches are wrong will remain loyal to them. This is very serious. Once you have reached this point, judgment cannot be far off

    So what is delaying God’s judgment from falling? Something that will emerge from the chaos that other people can come to and find the right way forward. Not until the new thing is ready will God allow the old thing to fall, although His judgment is now inevitable.

    Saul had the numbers, but couldn’t gain the victory. He had the name, but God was no longer speaking to him. I would rather meet in a closet with five faithful Christians who study God’s Word, who hear Him through that Word and by His Spirit, than meet in an arena with five thousand of Saul’s people.

    Please view whole article on above website. God bless.

  230. Lightning Storm Nov 3rd 2013


    I haven’t read the article yet, but whoa…..that is a very good point…..AND it can be seen in many of the circumstances of the Hebrews through out the OT and in the gospels.

    Thank you for pointing that out…..very very important.
    It ties in with “forerunners”.

  231. Inspired Nov 3rd 2013

    Interesting AM,
    I was reading of Saul summoning Samuel just last night.
    Even with all the things going on, Isn’t it God who brings order out of disorder? Don’t things have to crash so they can be reset?

  232. ValleyAnt Nov 3rd 2013

    Averyl, you asked the right question, but only the Lord can answer it, because He is currently is currently answering it for me where I live.

    Penny, I would’ve made a few people ‘punch out’ and leave if it was up to me.

    DonaldN, I also agree with Andrew and with the wisdom you spoke that those who anti-leader always speak of tyrannical leadership and cannot see that there are good leaders. But it is like a child who grew up abused by his parents and all the adults in his life and who therefore cannot see a person in a position of leadership as good, safe, healthy, trustworthy. (I’ll return to this later on down.) As you said, a true biblical leader is gentle, humble, and a servant, not a tyrant.

    Amen, Barry: “God is Love. Whoever abides in Love abides in God and God in him.” John couldn’t say it better. I wish his epistles were longer. Love and holiness, without a doubt, are the same. When we love someone, we ‘hallow’ them (‘make them worthy’) in our sight. In society today, you see the other side of this: people don’t value others (no holiness), therefore, they hate others (no love).

    Thanks, Marilyn. You said, “Man tries to reason with us and keeps urging us to stop doing this and start doing thus. Leaders called by God lead us to see the work HE is doing in us and that HE is able to complete the task.” Amen.

    AM, good article. “I would rather meet in a closet with five faithful Christians who study God’s Word, who hear Him through that Word and by His Spirit, than meet in an arena with five thousand of Saul’s people.” Without a doubt. David’s men were the outcasts and the runners, ‘those who fled institutional churches’ but were a rowdy and raucous bunch. This brings me to what I told DonaldN above that I’d return to.

    Above, I said to DonaldN that one who is anti-leader “is like a child who grew up abused by his parents and all the adults in his life and who therefore cannot see a person in a position of leadership as good, safe, healthy, trustworthy.” Some things then began to open up after I wrote this. I’ll share them in my next comment.

  233. Renee Nov 3rd 2013

    Brother Daniel, thank you! May our Lord bless you for trying to explain the simple yet beautiful truth of the precious Gospel. It is hard for many of us to see.

    Of course there are brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ whom He puts into positions of ministry but it isn’t rulership. It’s showing the way through servanthood, through obedience to Christ so that others will serve our Lord in obedience too.

    A true minister is led by the Spirit to serve God. As they faithfully serve Him, He uses them as an example to others in the Body of Christ so that they too will serve God. All of us as one Body, following hard after God.

    Mark 10:45

  234. ValleyAnt Nov 3rd 2013

    Regarding those who are anti-leader, there are two basic kinds: the kinds who have made up forever in their hearts to hate all authority and the kinds who don’t want to hate leaders but whose perception of authority is totally poisoned so that they are genuinely unable to perceive ‘leaders’ as a good concept until the Lord breaks the blindness with revelation.

    For those who seem to be anti-leader but aren’t, their intention isn’t rebellion though they certainly seem that way; they just cannot see or apprehend ‘a good leader’. The witchcraft (control) and abuse from previous leaders is preventing them from being able to even make sense of ‘good’ and ‘leader’ in the same context. One of the very first things that witchcraft does (whether it’s occult witchcraft or soul witchcraft (e.g. peer pressure or ‘the unspoken desires of one soul thrust upon another’), is that it blinds a person, making them unable to see certain things that should be apparent and that may be readily apparent to others who are ‘outside’ that influence of witchcraft. I’ve been amazed to find so many opposites of Love: hate is the opposite of Love… so is rejection; so is fear; and so is witchcraft (or control). No one can love or care for a person they exert control over; it’s not possible. Love protects and covers, but witchcraft abuses. In the process of abuse (usually it abuses a person’s trust and will, seeking to forcefully override the will), witchcraft works on blinding people. You see this in many abusive relationships where the victim may endure the abuse, unable to see a way out, or the person may flat out defend the abuser (something the abuser, not the abused, wants– the effect of witchcraft).

    The Bible says that those who came to David and joined him did so ‘against King Saul’; so in a way, we see what seems to be rebellion. They were all “in debt, discouraged, and discontented”. Some of these people didn’t mind killing Saul either; but they are the ones God chose to be with and be loyal to David. I believe that some anti-leader Christians today are blinded by control and are discouraged but are really seeking a ‘good shepherd’. David’s men stayed with Saul how many years? They didn’t leave him (as AM’s article mentions in a different way) until they heard about David. Today, many come out from bad leadership and haven’t heard of good leadership to join themselves too, therefore, naturally, they will sound anti-leader because all they’ve had are bad leaders.

    Before Jesus came on the scene, the Pharisees controlled the people; though the control was oppressive, the people were blind and couldn’t see their circumstance or an alternative. But when Jesus looked at them, He saw their true condition: “They were weary (vulnerable) and scattered (without vision), like sheep having no shepherds (because they had no godly leaders” (Mt. 9:36). When Jesus came, He said, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed” (Lk. 4). Control and witchcraft abuse the spirit and cause blindness (and loss of vision for sure); Jesus came to restore all these and continues to do through true shepherds.

    To those who’ve been abused by controlling leadership and who are literally, as a result, unable to see that there are good and true leaders still, God is aware and remembers it and is angry concerning it; and this is what God says of the situation from the beginning to the end:

    “‘Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!’ says the Lord. Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: ‘You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,’ says the Lord. ‘But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they will be fruitful and increase. I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they will fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor will they be lacking,” says the Lord” (Jer. 23:1-4).

    “I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them (care for them); and they will fear no more.” Amen. Amen.


    To Jesus, servant-leadership was not a program but a response. There was no task that he was too good for or too important to perform. Jesus also involved his disciples in the learning process. He helped them be more effective and get better at what they did. He was free to give the ministry away. The real test of his leadership was how well the disciples performed after his departure. It worked!

    The organisational church as we see today hinders that servant leadership model of Jesus. There are objectives to be accomplished, projects to be completed, financial goals to reach, numbers to be achieved, buildings to be acquired or built and time is of the essence! People must be motivated and “moved” from point A to point B. Thus the required leadership style for “church as an organization” is more like the world –CEO pastors, accountants and press secretaries. The congregation becomes something to be ‘moved’ in order to meet those (manmade) goals. Not to be served in love!

    The house church offers the opportunity to recapture the style of leadership modelled and taught by Jesus. There is no building to finance and no committee to which to report. We no longer have to “make it happen”. We are genuinely free to learn to lead like Jesus led.

    However, we must be aware that even in Jesus’ day there was the temptation to copy the leadership style of the world. (Isn’t that the way to “get things done”?) Jesus told his disciples -“You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you! Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:42-45).

    During the Middle Ages, Martin Luther came to realize there had been a Babylonian Captivity of the church under the medieval papacy. He understood the spiritual character of Babylon, this marriage of the political system of the world to a corrupt religious system: this was the ‘Holy Roman Empire’, which was neither holy nor Roman. This will happen again; we can see the Captivity coming.

  236. Daniel Nov 3rd 2013

    So have I been labelled “anti-leader”? It is amazing to me how so many people who cannot conceive of authority any differently than they were taught it in an institution resort immediately to labelling those they disgree with as something negative. “Rebellious”, “wounded”, “rogue lone rangers”, and now add to the list “anti-leader”. This is playground talk people, have I stooped to label you?

    “And do not be called leaders, for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Matthew 23:10-11)

    In the entire New Testament you will not find once where Christians are called leaders, they are instead identified by their “leading” (study the Greek, this is true). They were known by their actions, not by their positions. To be a prophet was to be a function to the body, it was a spiritual call to service, and none dared to take it up unless the call came from the Spirit.

    There are no “leadership” positions to be filled, that is how the world works, not God’s kingdom. There are those called by the Spirit to lead by their function as a gift to the body. I am anti-positionship, but I am not against those who will lead the way, I am for those who are gifted to do so. It is about actions and callings rather than positions and offices. I am NOT anti-leader, I simply stand with Jesus’ words that He alone is our leader (I say “our” because I am not a little rebellious one-man island type of Christian, I love the body and I love to see it function as God has called it to.)

  237. Andrew Nov 3rd 2013

    No leaders, No leaders

    No shepherds, No shepherds

    No elders, No elders

    No teachers, No teachers

    No authority, No authority

    Yes – we get it. We have heard you clearly.