-extracts by J. Lee Grady.

I love the Holy Spirit’s gifts. But some of our “Spirit-filled” practices are questionable…

Anybody who has read this column before knows I’m unapologetic-
ally charismatic in my theology. I love the Holy Spirit, and I believe
the New Testament calls us to make room for manifestations of
the Spirit. The apostle Paul gave guidelines for the gift of prophecy;
he saw dramatic healings; he experienced supernatural visions;
and he told church leaders not to forbid speaking in tongues (see
1 Cor. 14:39). Paul was the epitome of charismatic spirituality.

But not everything we do today in the name of the Holy Spirit is
a valid expression of His power. Over the past four decades, we
charismatics have invented some lame practices that not only
make us look silly but actually turn people off to our message.
I figure we started these behaviors because of immaturity—and
I can laugh about them because I’ve done some of them myself.
But it’s 2013, and I think God expects more of us…

– The body slam. There are times when people feel woozy or
weak-kneed when the Holy Spirit touches them. I leave room for
that. But can we please stop pushing people to the floor? Any
minister who hits, shoves or slaps people at a church altar is
being extremely rude. He is also relying on his own swagger to
demonstrate he has the power to “slay” people in the Spirit. If
you pushed someone to the floor, God had nothing to do with it…

– The song that never ends. I used to love the chorus “Let It Rain”
until some churches drove this tune into the ground by playing it
159 times in a row. After the first 30 go-rounds, I want to scream,
“Change the channel!” God doesn’t listen to us more intently if
we are repetitive, as if we were doing a rain dance to make Him
hear us. It’s OK to end the song and start a new one!

– The amateur flag corp. Banners and flags became a hot worship
trend in the 1980s, and pageantry can still be effective when
practiced and performed for an audience. But where did we get
the idea that waving flags, sticks or other sharp objects within
two feet of people’s faces was a smart idea?

– The wannabe telethon offering. I have been in meetings where
the preacher gave a 25-minute offering sermon (before the main
message) and then asked everyone in the audience to parade
to the front for the next 15 minutes. Yes, giving money to God
is worship. But when the offering takes longer than any other
part of the service, I start to wonder if we are being taken for a ride…

– The praise-a-go-go dancers. I love to dance in church—and
it’s normal in many of the ethnic congregations I visit. But I fear
we unleashed a monster when we encouraged amateur dance
teams to hop around on stage in unitards—in front of visitors!
It’s not unspiritual to ask: “Will this look goofy?”

– The ear-shattering amp. When the early church prayed, the
buildings shook. Today we shake our buildings by turning up the
volume of our sound systems. You know they are too loud when
church members pop in earplugs during worship. “Charismatic”
does not mean “loud,” and our spirituality is not measured in decibels.

The apostle Paul, in laying down guidelines for charismatic gifts,
told the Corinthians, “When I became a man, I put away childish
things” (1 Cor. 13:11). As we embrace the Spirit’s work, let’s
allow Him to guide us into maturity so we don’t foolishly squander
His power.


Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on May 1st, 2013 at 11:06 am.


520 Replies

  1. Larry May 1st 2013

    Been there…Done that. What many fail to realize that when manifestations come, they are for a purpose. They will move some to repentance, others will be encouraged and embolden by a display of God’s power, others humbled by His holiness, etc. … all designed to increase our faith and move us out to take the life of Christ to a lost world. Not bottle it up in a package (church building) and sell it to all who come. When His glory moves on, the pushing and manipulation start in an attempt to keep His glory in-house. A good brother of mine, while in prayer, heard God say “I don’t want you telling people about Me any more. I want you to show them who I Am.”
    Blessings, Larry

  2. So true. All of that is happening today. It’s great to hear someone actually talk about it!

  3. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 1st 2013

    Andrew, this is a good article. It’s good to ask ourselves if we can envision Jesus in some of these behaviors. If so, why do we not find him doing so in the accounts of his earthly ministry? In our Spirit, He bears witness and reveals Himself accurately. Yea or nay?

  4. yes, yes, yes! all true

  5. Pam UK May 1st 2013

    Spot on! I have raised these – and many more – questions myself down the years and was told I was not spiritual…I left!
    I cannot imagine for one moment the apostles – especially Paul and Peter doing all these jigs!
    The mere shadow of Peter God used that contact to heal someone!
    Amen and amen Brother!

  6. Great article Andrew.
    Isaiah 7:9 – If you do not stand firm on your faith you do not stand at all.
    Thank you Lord for the TRUTH!!!

  7. I was never a part of the Charismatic movement so most of these things I only heard about via reading online over the last several years. Except #9 (“jump-start” glossalalia?); I have no idea what that is. Very humorous article, and, as a sort of outsider… bizarre. Thanks for being real.

  8. Ken Espenschied May 1st 2013

    You are only scratching the surface of circumstance, the broader implications are more important. Having said that, it appears to me that the charismatic movement, in its latter day iteration, has changed churches from pillars of truth into clearinghouses for fad doctrines of every sort while nullifying discernment by attributing legitimate considerations to the realm of the flesh, unbelief, or demonic influence in the people who have genuine questions. We’ve basically turned “Every Wind of Doctrine” into “Christian Practice as Usual” while setting up a spiritual leadership that competes with the papacy in it’s aspiration to infallible authority, and that authority often relies on peer pressure as it’s arm of enforcement. The result ends up, all to often, in “believe, or leave, get on board, or get out.” And that’s over peripheral and questionable issues -not sound core doctrine. It’s a sad commentary on the “gift of discernment.” Why does the group most zealous for the gifts seem to be the in the least possession of the most important ones?

  9. Thankyou for bringing up this topic,, It is long overdue, and actually shows how easily people are led to do what they see others do,, no matter if it is true or not.. ANYTHING TO FOLLOW THE CROWD. I would venture to say that it is also important for people to search there hearts and see why they are so easily led by man..A most serious issue, and one that religious history proves can be very dangerous to those who don’t follow suit..

  10. This is one necessary article – greatly needed in so many places. I was ‘ordained’ 45 years ago today – I was ‘baptised in the Holy Spirit’ 44 years ago – and I have witnessed much of this, and trembled and cringed. This is essential reading for all of us. “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

  11. L. Alex Smith May 1st 2013

    So many people are horn-swoggled by emotionally manipulative techniques, “stage show” style… even preachers looking for “volunteers” for their shenanigans. At these large faith healing crusades, how many people get “slain in the Spirit”, versus how many people who might be in line for prayer, never seem to get healed– I’m not talking about getting out of a wheel-chair (which may be staged), but people that are severely disabled, such as cerebral palsy where their head is over and you can tell that “something’s wrong with them”. The Falling in the Spirit may be legitimate when the very presence and power of the Lord overwhelms you; yet many times, people fall over because they have shut their eyes– your visual horizon helps keep you on balance, so that’s not functioning with your eyes closed– and, their feet (as usual) are parallel like this: = , making it easy to go over. Keep your feet like this: T, and if God’s Spirit is upon you, even that foot stability won’t keep you up. Truth, no shenanigans, please!

  12. JulieAnn May 1st 2013

    Good article. Just scratches the surface of the real problem. I.e.: Man’s attempts to “imitate, manufacture, bottle, package, controle, manipulate, and create the “presence of God.” Then comes the next question – Why?

  13. missbridgewater May 1st 2013

    There is enough evidence in the word of God that shows the miracles, signs and wonders the disiples did were decreasing and almost void at the end of that era, period, so I still believe things being passed out by layin of hands were for that time, not to say we cant pray for healing today, but rely soley on God to do them, without any sort of practice or ritual. Joel lived thousands of years before Pauls time, and he spoke of pentecost and the holy spirit that long before Paul even came in the picture, so this is that which Joel spoke of argment to support everyone acting like some grand and powerful healer has no bearing or truth to me, and today people actually expect God to move right away when we can see clearly God didnt move like that in old times. Pentecostals have truley acted and behaved more like wizards and witches from the birth of this denomination, its roots are pagan occult and what people have been saying about them for the last century I believe is true! Occultists, and those who think their tongues and such are real, well Im quite sure the devil knows how to turn his stuff up and down, he knows how to be orderly as well, so no way do I believe God and the devil are performing through mens hands at the same time, it has absolutely no biblical support either. IF IT WERE TRUE that we are all to have healing, prosperity, etc then why would we want to go to heaven when we would be creating it now on earth. Pentecostalism has I believe always been plauged with the spirit or lust for thing supernatural and they even deny scripture to defend what they claim is their TRUE gifts. Well, anyone that can read can see in the word of God, these things as far as revival is concerns have ZERO lasting affects. Once their done, people forget same in history, ex. moses and the exodus miracles and the same today. You have alot of harry potter kids who now call themselves pentecostals, the fruit of a religion that has always been plagued. The parable of the fig tree Jesus said KNOW IT for the purpose of discerning the times, and the only power I see the bible mentions in these todays times are the counterfeit, plain and simple, and anyone who wants to twist scripture to ledgitimise their so called powers might as well be gays trying to twist to support christianize their marriages. All would be in the same boat, cherry pickers.

  14. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    All mankind have built into them the knowledge of God’s existence. Remote tribes across the planet have been found, and they believe in the existence of a god.
    These false manifestations are offered to fill the desire in people for a power that only a god can give.
    Many have taken this bait and are caught up in the net.
    They have not been taught the truth because the leaders don’t care about the truth, they want the crowds.

    God inspired me to write down this scenario a few weeks ago.

    A church is going to have some teaching seminars. The announcement comes out and is passed on to the community.

    At our north location we will have a three day holiness seminar. We will be teaching on renewing the mind and what to be thinking about, on how to endure temptation, on how to be an overcomer and receive the crown of life promised as a blessing for resisting temptation.

    At our south location we will be having a promise and blessing seminar. The first night we will have a healing service with a guest speaker who is powerful in this field. The second night we will have a financial speaker to teach you how to receive the blessings God has promised all of us. Then the third night we will have a Holy Ghost meeting and put all we learn to work for us.

    The result of these meetings— The blessing seminar is packed to the max. The holiness seminar has six people show up.

    The problem with this situation is that the leadership looks at the attendance. They don’t want to waste their time on only six people so they don’t bother with the holiness seminars any more. They want the crowds so they only have the “Bless Me” seminars. They don’t care what the people need to hear, they only care about the large crowds.

  15. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 1st 2013

    Hmmm, Why?

    Good question.

    I do believe, if we walk away truly humbled by His Holy Presence..we have seen the face of God. We then, have an image, worth reflecting.

  16. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    Why is actually quite simple. Just as Jesus said to the Pharisees, “you are of your father, the devil.” In the same way these false teachers and ministers also follow the devil for their own purposes.

    Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

  17. Randy Ailie May 1st 2013

    Finally, a voice of reason!
    I cannot count the number of seasoned mature saints now living in what we call caves because of the atrocity going on in the charismatic church. All these saints I get the treat of fellowshipping with that are really in tune with the Holy spirit. Yet won’t set foot in either the ‘dead’ evangelical churches nor the fleshly opera of the charismatic wing either. Not only due to these practices. Which frankly came out of a satanic spirit of religion. But due to the errant doctrine pushing it all forward. They feel the grieving of the Holy Spirit to the point it wants to make them cry every time they visit. As do I. Most have gone the route of house churches just to find the same thing going on there. Or simply no life at all. Just yesterday I fielded a phone call from a woman I consider simply the most prophetically gifted soul on the planet. And I deal with alot of the genuine ones. In a cave, out of fellowship but with a few. And nowhere real to go!
    Paul preached a sane meeting. I think Lee sees this and I applaud the word. But sadly, I doubt few will bend to it. Because when we put spiritual teenagers in the pulpit. We get what we get..


  18. Barry Schmidt May 1st 2013

    This article is absolutely hilarious! I laughed till I cried. It is also absolutely true.
    Sin can be repented of but stupid is forever .

  19. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    Barry Schmidt–
    Back off a bit, many of us, whom you are talking to, have come out of this “stupid” ministry behavior.

  20. Mick 2 May 1st 2013

    ‘Nothing new here. The heathen have always done this while using godly or Christian words. But that does not make them godly or Christian. Nor should we associate with them because they do; they’re HEATHEN. Separate yourselves. Consider Elisha’s response to them as they danced, shouted, cut themselves, blew horns and carried on about their sacrifice; Elisha made it clear that he and God were not a part of them, calling out their foolishness even: “perhaps your god is sleeping, hunting… or relieving himself”. Come away from them and follow God. We’ve better things. Don’t leave your First Love for anything.

  21. L. Alex Smith May 1st 2013

    Miss Bridgewater, your “history” is in dispute with the facts! The Gifts of the Spirit continued in the 100’s, 200’s. and even 300’s A.D. when they began to drop off due to the ascendecy of the Roman church, with its pagan compromise, rituals, legalism, and formalism. Until the Edict of Milan (watershed ruling) the persecuted church was full of the Spirit and the accompanying gifts. Even after Constantine and the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) there were still assemblies manifesting GOD’s Spirit and HIS gifts– but they were getting fewer. There were still hallmark ministers (even with RC doctrine) throughout the Dark and Middle Ages, who operated the Gifts of the Spirit, such as Columba in the 500’s who came from Ireland to Scotland; Hildagard von Bingen received songs in the spirit; (1100’s) Francis of Assissi spoke in tongues according to some editions of the Catholic Encyclopedia, (1182-1226). Some of the Reformers experienced bursts of God’s power– John Wesley had remarkable healings take place in his Anglican-turned-Methodist revival meetings; Then in the 1800’s there were people like Dwight L. Moody, John Alexander Dowie, and Smith Wigglesworth; healing and other spiritual gifts (WITH the Holiness of God) was at the Azusa Street revival; Kathryn Kulman’s minstry of healing began I think in the 1920’s; William Branham in the late 1940’s. It has only been in the recent years, especially with the advent of Mass Media such as television, that it has become more of a stage show. Even now there are LEGITIMATE gifts of God’s Spirit. REMEMBER– just because some people Abuse what God has given, does not Negate the true and the real. Peter denied knowing Jesus. John and the others fled, even leaving his coat in the hand of a soldier. Judah betrayed Him for money, then killed himself. Out of twelve men, you get a bunch of flaky screw-ups: and a Suicide rate of 1 in 12 !!! Does that mean that Jesus wasn’t the REAL Messiah? Of course not! Read your church history a bit more carefully please, and be careful of not committing the Fallacy of Hasty Generalisation.

  22. L. Alex Smith May 1st 2013

    A good expose on “faith healing” shenanigans is Derren Brown’s investigation called, “Miracles For Sale” in which he enlists the help of a fellow to pose as a faith healer, who learns the tricks of the trade and actually pulls off a fake “healing meeting” in Texas. This does not mean that there is no such thing as REAL, God-Given healing– but exposes the fake stage show kind. A fictional movie about the same subject would be “Leap of Faith” starring Steve Martin, who is one of these fake “faith-healers”– until a lad goes into the empty auditorium, just praying to God, and Steve Martin sees him, alone, get healed. Steve Martin then is so convicted, he gets on a bus out of town leaving the entire thing behind him. If only more fake preachers had that kind of integrity: but that’s probably why it’s Fiction.

  23. James May 1st 2013

    Very true. Great article, and well needed today. i have seen many, if not all, these things take place. And, yes, got drawn into some of it in my early years of moving in the Spirit. I strongly object to those who push, shove, or slap peaple who come to them for prayer. At one church where I had previously ministered, I was invited to hear a guest speaker. All the time he was speaking his friend walked back and frth in front of him speaking loudly in tongues. This speaker invited people to come forwarded for prayer. I stood back to listen and watch. This man told the children God could not answer their prayer unless they fell to the floor. How damaging! Finally he called me forward for prayer, and on my way to the front I told God I would only receive that which was of Him. This man pushed, shoved, and even asked others to help him. I was fed up, and said “Lord, You touch him.” At this he fell to the floor, was unable to get up, and was still on the floor when we left the building. We all need to be in tune with God, and realize the Holy Spirit is gentle, unless man tries to put on a show and take the credit.

  24. Mick 2 May 1st 2013

    A big amen to James. We need men of God; not frightened, superstitious, religious people who behave like children.

  25. Zululander May 1st 2013

    Horn swoggled???? Sorry im SA 🙂

    1997 I went to Toronto. I was pastoring at the time & the senior pastor & his wife prayed for me until they both fell down???!!!!

    Donald I think it’s ok to laugh at yourself sometimes. Most of us have been there & done that. Lets be grateful God took us out & there are those bold enough to speak out.
    I been prayed for a thousand times & never fell over…..I can be soooo stubborn.

  26. Allison May 1st 2013

    Thank you for writing about the fleshly practices in the “church” these days. Over the years I have seen it all, “The Body Slam”, “The hypnotic vain repetitions of a shallow chorus”, “The begathons, the passing of chicken buckets for four offerings”, and the main offence, “The Super-Amped up ‘Worship’ band”. This is the worst as the decibels are so high that it will actually do damage to the hearers. Yes, the people actually do wear ear-plugs. Amazing isn’t it?

  27. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    Zululander– I don’t mean to be rude or condemning, but if the Word says something or prohibits something, then we should heed that Word.

    1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

    Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    If we ourselves compromise the Word, then we have no right to point out others that do.

  28. Andrew,

    I have to tell you that this article made me laugh so much, and the reason for that is that I have been a part of and witnessed every single practice you speak of here in the church I used to be a part of ( am no longer part of the church system.

    The sad thing is that it is difficult to see all this for what it is when ou are in the midst of it. It is only when you step outside of these practices for a while that you begin to get your perspective back and realise how much flesh and little spirit there is at the core of all these goings-on.

    I think someone touched already on the fact that what you speak off only scratches the surface and that is so true, but seriously thank you for putting a smile on my face today taking me down memory lane and being able to laugh at myself primarily for falling for all this fanfare that none other than ourselves have created and fallen for. Is it any wonder the onlookers steer clear?

    If it is ok with you I would like to publish this article on my blog. I know many of my followers will relate and it will add some humour to what may have been a dreary day.

    Thanks Andrew.

  29. AMEN!!!!

  30. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 1st 2013

    Zululander, 😀

    re: they both fell down???!!!! …….I been prayed for a thousand times & never fell over…..I can be soooo stubborn.

    LOL! I couldn’t help the mental imagery here. A FarSide with you standing,on the alter a man down on the left and a woman on the right. One line reading, ”’And, there’s Zululander, the last man standing!”

    Keep standing, Brother!

  31. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    I have a question for all.
    We have all spoken of these false teachers as being of the devil.

    My question is this.

    Can a person think they are following God and be sincere about it, while in reality they are following the devil’s false teaching. or even teaching it themselves?

    To what extent do we say they are of the devil, when many of us confess that we were once involved in this nonsense?

  32. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    I myself was raised Mennonite (very dry), accepted Christ as savior in a Baptist church (sinner’s prayer), received the Holy Spirit in a non-denominational ministry (that was at its time the most prosperity driven ministry in existence), since then I have been in prosperity movements, drunkenness churches (though left because I did not agree with it) and many others that I found to have serious problems.
    Through all this God was teaching me.
    So, God was there, in all these ministries, because I was there seeking Him and He was there to be found. He later led me out, but nevertheless, He was there.
    We need to remember this and pray for those in these false ministries, that God will be there for them, and show them the truth.

  33. I brought a new believer to church one time and my friend went up for the altar call- the preacher took his hand and pressed very forcefully on my friend’s forehead presumably to cause him to be “slain in the Spirit”? Well, my friend pushed back! There was a “pushing war” that took place before the preacher finally said, “Ok, if you don’t wanna go down, I’m moving to the next person!”

    This church also did the other thing that Grady mentioned- they made a big show of taking special offerings and parading people to the front.

    I saw all kinds of stuff like this while living in Florida. In fact, most everything on Grady’s list.

    I hate to admit it, but I was even sucked into some of it.

    One day I woke up and asked myself what I was doing. I asked myself, “Did Jesus do this weird stuff?” Nope. And that was the end of it for me.

    The sad thing is, I actually had friends who became “concerned” for me because I wasn’t into this stuff anymore. They saw the weird and fleshy stuff as “being spiritual”.

  34. I completely agree!

  35. Zululander May 1st 2013

    Agreed Donald, but I think you missed my point….no matter.

  36. a very serious topic to consider.
    Is what does the bible say SLAIN in the SPIRIT really means.
    LOOK at the text of it when it was used in the bible.
    Does this modern day slain in the spirit
    keep with what the HOLY scriptures said.?
    And when using gifts, we must seriously be
    aware of the things these men do and say.
    an example is Would JESUS have said to
    the church, My Father told me, as an act of faith
    to get a lady healed i have to KICK her in the face
    with Combat boots, or hit another with a bat?
    Or walk members around like animals
    barking and wooing?
    We gotta test all things. a serious question to poder
    about these men also, is How they live and walk.
    and do their teachings and actions align with what CHRIST did and spoke? Money was never involved with any healing in Christs day, nor the apostels. So rule that OUT.
    Did JESUS tell the blind man, FIRST get me money from your heart as an act of faith, then be HEALED? SO rule money OUT.
    When JESUS said your faith has saved you…………
    IT was their FAITH in HIM, HIM, HIM.
    so rule out many word faith preachers.
    Did JESUS ever say go and gather as many as you can
    so they can watch me cast a demon out? NO , in fact
    he often said…………….TELL nonone……………….
    HE did not desire his own recoginition or exaltation from men,
    but rather did all things for the GLORY of GOD.
    while telling men HE was the son of GOD, and warning them to BELIEVE in HIM, BUT not to be above the master, but rather as the master. He was so concerned for us not to be highminded
    he left us the greatest example to follow.
    IF i , your master have washed your feet……………
    Did he congratulate his desiciples when they returned
    glorying in the fact they had the abiblity to cast out demons,
    the power to do so. NO.
    IN fact he warned against such glory.
    HE said I beheld satan as lightning fall
    glory not in that you have POWER , but rejoice rather
    that your names are above. HUMBLE
    YET these groups seek the POWER and exalt themselves.
    NOW do we see the problem.
    NOW do you understand, that many will say to HIM in that
    day………….LORD did we not prophesy, and cast out demons
    and do many wonderful works………
    and YET he says…………..I NEVER KNEW YOU.
    are we learning………………..
    well………………….are we learning, why i often say
    READ JESUS WORDS, read the apostles letters
    take heed to the prophets as well.
    WHY i constantly encourage to READ only the bible.
    WHY……………because we can learn for ourselves
    first HAND what JESUS said to do ………..and how he lived
    and how the aposles lived, and how they warned.
    WE GOTTA get back in ONLY the bible.
    OPINIONS…………………are opinions
    BUT ONLY TRUTH IS TRUTH………….and the truth shall set you free. MY people perish from lack of knowledge.
    WE had better be made wise unto our salvation in the doctrines
    through our faith in Christ
    or we gonna fall for anything.

  37. do take note……………HOW often do these men, or many men for that matter simply read whole letters of the bible to congregations.
    or do they simply pick a bit here and there
    and then use these doctrines, taken out of text,
    instead of reading them whole, and letting us recieve
    what i say to one , i say to all……….
    do not wait, do not hesitate, do not falter
    dont walk, RUN FROM THEM.
    we in the last days…………..i tell you all, we in the last days
    and many false prophets have gone wild in massive
    counts of churches.
    Beware them and learn and read, and grow in Christ.
    HE will get us through these end days
    HIS LIGHT will give us path, through even the darkest of times.
    FOR a famine of HIS WORD IS IN THIS LAND and in the world.
    AND THIS IS TRUTH. amen.

  38. My suggestion is…………..ANY TIME one tries to teach
    YOU TEST IT ALL. and if any part dont add up
    and align with the whole of CHRIST
    but , and heres the kicker
    IF you aint scripture wise……………..HOW WILL YOU KNOW
    the part lie from the WHOLE of the TRUTH.
    and this goes even deeper
    by simply saying……………..IF YOUR WHOLE HEART aint after GOD…………………..you in serious trouble.
    The WHOLE of your inner being MUST be AFTER GOD
    THEN HE BURNS OUT THE REST, and hidden faults
    become known, and when they do REPENT.
    AND you will grow and become WISE IN CHRIST
    but i warn you all
    IF you aint getting grounded in the scrips
    LIKE PAUL ALSO SAID TO DO, as did PETER and others
    THEN you aint being made wise unto your salvation………
    through faith in CHRIST
    and if you aint being made wise
    YOU open for all types of deceptions from the dark one.
    WHO goes about seeking all he may devour at his will.
    GET WISE. and GET THERE FAST. and it dont take long
    the more you read whole letters, gosples, etc
    YOU find yourself strengthed in knowledge
    and things become very clear. WHOLE HEART. amen.

  39. How to tell a true prophet from a false one……..or one of the ways
    HOW they teach.
    IF you bring something from the bible which contradicts their teaching and they say…………WELL YOU NEED the SPIRIT ……….to truly SEE………………RUN FROM THEM
    IF they say well we aint under the law, or etc
    and this dont apply………….RUN FROM THEM.
    so also REMEMBER………..TRUE LOVE will NEVER TRANSGRESS or make void it either.
    WE gotta be made wise. WE MUST, STAND UPON THE ROCK
    or fall you will. HE WHO HEARS……….and does NOT
    and DOES THEM shall remain in HIM and HE in them.
    ITS as simple as THAT.
    ONE TWO < THREE easy. JUST WALK as did JESUS
    and endure till the end you willl.
    never listen to those who change HIS WORDS
    to fit their lifestyle or teaching. RUN FROM THEM………..
    THEY WOVLES hungry to devour and have fallen from truth, from grace, and teach things they ought not for filthylucre
    they teach for reward, for money…………..
    and no matter how they try and justify themselves
    ITS THEIR ACTIONS which show thier faith.
    they heap and that AINT RIGHT . now RUN FROM them
    and walk in CHRIST amen.

  40. sadly they could have had the HOPE any believer has……….
    but instead of recieving the truth, words,
    which would change them, and being found in Christ
    who is the ONLY JUSTIFIER of men.
    they choose to harden their heart to truth, to his words,
    and choose rather to JUSTIFY THEMSELVES , ther actions ,
    for why they do as they do, and why they teach as they teach,
    and all the while are lost, miserable , poor , blind and naked.
    SO as DONALD said……………LET US pray many come out from these snares. PRAY them OUT
    TIME grows ever short. and no man knows his last hour here on earth. PURGE that leven OUT.
    KEVIN gave wonderful advice
    GO TO GOD in prayer…………..and ask HIM to burn out all dross NOT of HIM, not in keeping with HIM.
    and HE WILL. amen.

  41. Anthony Donaghey May 1st 2013

    Be Careful What You Pray for…
    [2nd 5th 2013]
    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
    (Galatians 5:22-23)

    I have often heard it said that we should be careful not to pray for patience as what the Lord most often uses to produce such results is one frustration after another.
    This got me to thinking about the ‘fruit of the Spirit’; and what it is the Lord uses to produce these spiritual attributes within His children.
    There I was, lying on my beanbag-bed trying to get some shuteye before my nightshift; listening to two godly men discussing the 4th chapter of the Book of Acts on the TV/DVD machine; trying to concentrate; trying not to be too distracted with the news I had received a few hours earlier about one of my daughters having bruises left on her by her “boyfriend”; trying not to let the anger rise and defeat me; hanging onto the vengeance belonging to the Lord and trying to learn how to, (once again), forgive; caught in that terrible space between forgiveness and wanting vengeance to come swiftly…
    A terrible place for any man’s heart…
    Then I remembered that in such matters I am mostly powerless; if I was to drive the two hours it requires to get down there and demand my daughter return with me away from such a violent coward she would most definitely take his side of things and claim I was ‘embarrassing’ her; driving her ever further into the arms of this world and whatever it is it has left to offer her…
    So I had a thought about the fruit of the Spirit and asked the Lord if I understood Him correctly?
    • Love: The love talked about here is not the love the world throws at us again and again; it is not the love of the sweaty bodies so prevalent in Hollywood productions – Usually what Hollywood calls romantic love is simply either adultery or fornication; remember Doctor Zivargo or The English Patient or Titanic? – It is most definitely not the love rock stars and crooners attempt to seduce us with song after endless song. And it is not the love a man may have for sports; the arts or a bacon and strawberry jam & onion sandwich. This Love discussed here is a love that exists despite its opposition; a Love that is supernatural in essence; a Love that comes into being like candlelight without oxygen or fuel to breathe life into its flame and it seems to me; going along with the ‘do not pray for patience’ argument, that the only way for us to develop this Spiritual fruit is to be inundated by hatred of all sorts, be it blatant or covert, understandable or mysterious; be it by words, deeds, or complete and utter disregard, (perhaps the most powerful of all the hatreds ever to exist). This opposition is usually what is used to develop the Love above all Loves; it is the opposition Jesus faced as he was perfected by suffering. Jesus came to His own and was rejected; He spoke, breathed and exhibited Love all the live-long day and received indifference, open hostility, threats of violence and ultimately was murdered; and it seems to me that the more opposition He faced, the stronger His Love grew; a beautiful Light in a very, very dark place; a darkness that seethed and hissed and spat and growled like a frightened feline hiding in the shadows, its bristled back against the wall. So I think it wise not to be surprised that if in order for any of us to develop this kind of Love we should expect one heck of an obstacle course along the way; so if you are not being particularly Loved as you walk His walk, do not be surprised or dismayed; it seems to me to be all part of the journey; did He not after all warn us to expect hatred, persecution and tribulation in this world?
    • Joy: There is not much I would claim to know about Joy except to venture the observation that I have yet to meet anyone who has this as their Christian name who is anything and everything but joyous. The most miserable people I have ever met have been called Joy; perhaps it is a hard name to live up to. I think we get spiritual joy mixed up with happiness or being jolly. We are told in scripture that the joy of the Lord is our strength and yet the Lord being discussed is known for being a Man of Sorrows; acquainted with bitterest grief. I have observed a lot about the prophets and apostles along the way on this journey and laughter doesn’t seem to get much of a mention; so this joy, I assume, must be something quite set apart from the “joy” expressed by the world. It has been quite some time since I was described as a joyful person; in fact, most people seem to think I am mostly miserable; others tell me I need to get a life; to party more and whatnot. This world is a very sad place if you have your blinkers removed; there is so much hardship and dishonesty causing those hardships; so much needless suffering; so much neglect and terror and sorrowfulness; and yet, when I find myself thinking about how the Lord, at the end of all of this, shall return for me to take me Home in one way or another; I find that despite my perceived gloominess, there is a gentle joyfulness deep within me that I alone cannot manufacture; a joy of all things wrong being finally put right; a joy of the grace given to me to be forgiven completely of all my Sin; a joy that I will serve forevermore a person who I not only Love, but greatly admire; something I cannot claim I house for the rest of humanity; oh I love them; I just wouldn’t recommend any of us to anyone; our falling short of the mark seems to leave such utter devastation in its wake as we continue trying to convince ourselves that we are all somehow basically ‘good’ deep within. It takes, I have come to believe, great sorrow to develop within us this joy spoken of by the Spirit in Galatians.
    • Peace: I grew up in a time of war in Northern Ireland so I know of this peace we talk of down here that is nothing more than the absence of physical violence. However the peace spoken of here is so much more than that; it is Shalom-Peace; a peacefulness that transcends all other forms of worldly peace; a knowing; a feeling of belonging; of sameness; of likeminded-ness; of being of one accord with the Creator of all things seen and unseen; it is a picture of Heaven and the ambiance within and around it’s mighty walls of dazzling brilliance; it is the essence of knowing and being known of the Only True and Living God; it is Christ in the Father and the Father in Christ and both with the Spirit indwelling us, His children; something this world cannot take from us, no matter what they may fashion in their attempts to do so; and to have this developed within us takes once again much opposition from the flesh, the world, and the current father of this world; amid the fearful storms thrown at all of us in this life there is this quiet pocket of peace that is accessible to all who reach out and receive it in Christ’s Name; I have had such tribulations in my life, some caused by others, but most, if I am honest, caused by my own sinful actions; and during such times I have clung spiritually onto the hands of my Redeemer; (or was it Him onto mine?); tears of fear or anger or both trembling down my face, white knuckled, on fire with dread; and yet, amid the storms, my tears being stored in a bottle belonging to God Himself; I have found the strength that I know is not my own, to keep on holding on, one haggard breath at a time; hoping; yearning; believing; knowing that one fine and glorious day there will be no more tears or pain or death and Love Himself shall wipe the last tear from my bloodshot eye. Yes, I think it fair to say that it takes much turmoil for spiritual peace to be developed within a believer’s very core.
    • Longsuffering: the name itself suggests what it is that is required to develop this attribute; I don’t think I have ever heard myself say in the middle of prayer: “Oh Lord please help me to develop longsuffering…” I think what is described here comes about by suffering long and hard; for ourselves, our loved ones, those whom the devil uses in order to break us; to make us doubt the plan of God; to make us question Him and His motives; it takes the most dreadful heartbreak for this to be developed within us; and once again the ultimate role model for us to bare witness of is none other than Christ Himself; how much longsuffering has God shown all through His Son? All throughout history we have in one way or another been about the business of tearing asunder the heart of Almighty God and it is only by His Longsuffering that any of us is around right now to read what it is I am writing here; if God were like us in the natural none of us would stand a chance; He first Loved us whilst we were all still busy breaking His heart in a million trillion different ways; and we are all still at it; daily; hourly; by the minute and second we all, believer and unbeliever alike, are still disobedient, still arrogant; still untrusting; still questioning; still doubting; still shaking our futile little fists up at the skies in defiance of Him and His ways; and it is only because He is longsuffering, the ultimate kindness, that many of us are on our way to glory.
    • Gentleness: Personally I myself have learned to be gentle because I was surrounded for a time by people who for one reason or another could not express any gentleness; I learned what not to do by what had been done. It could have so easily gone the other way, and for many, many people, it is perpetuated by example. I consider this a grace of God toward myself long before I had called out His name to be saved. The Lord loves a gentle soul; His own dear Son the most gentle man ever to have graced this planet of ours; a man who would not so much as douse a flickering flame of vulnerable life; a man who loves no matter what the opposition; the gentlest warrior to have ever lived who took it all, could have retaliated in such a manner that the whole universe would have exploded to smithereens; but who instead called out in His torturous pain: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”; the most gentle cry ever uttered amidst unbelievable darkness and opposition ever known.
    • Goodness: There is no one who is good except One and it is His Goodness that we are clothed with; His righteousness; although works, (as spoken of by James), have been preordained that we should walk in them; works of God, not Man. James tells us if we have a faith without these preordained works then it is not a faith that will save us; the works themselves do not gain us salvation, they are simply ‘proofs’ that the faith we have is that faith spoken of in scripture, the faith of Jesus Himself, the faith that saves eternally. It is not by accident that all other religions offer salvation of one kind or another based solely on the works of Man; be they rituals or acts of charity and so forth; the whole ‘if my good works outweigh my bad ones, then I surely deserve to live in heaven” argument; an argument originating in The Garden of Eden; The great Lie from the father of it; the lie of all roads leading to the same place instead of what Jesus taught; the reality of the choice of two final destinations, not one; heaven or hell; that lie that the Lord came to put on trial by baring witness of The Truth. And it will not matter in the end who you are; Jew or Gentile; an Imam, a Lama, a Pope or Guru; a rich man, a poor man, a member of One Direction; if we rely on our own goodness for salvation we might as well make a flag of a filthy rag and swing that over our heads as we approach the throne room of God for all the good it will do us; it will be of absolutely no avail to anyone. The Goodness we will need to have developing within us is His Goodness; the only Goodness that will matter when the end has come upon us.
    • Faith: So often I hear of people having faith in the idea of faith; or having faith in one’s self; to listen to one’s own heart because it will tell us the truth nonsense; and never has a greater web of deceit ever been spun. The object of one’s faith is what makes that faith of any merit; to have faith in a bridge built of fried eggs and french-fries is not going to offer anyone safe passage over the abyss; to have faith in one’s self is similarly useless; and it does not matter two hoots to have faith in the universe; something I hear many rock and film stars raving about; the universe can help you in regard to salvation about as much as a rock or a blade of grass can. The object or person one’s faith is focussed on is really all that matters when it comes to faith; and let us not become puffed up about our great faith, since it is not actually our faith at all that has defeated death, offering a way back to the tree of eternal life; but the faith of the only One who took on the powers of darkness and made a show of them as He wrestled the keys of death away from their impotent claws. It is the faith of Jesus Christ wherein lies the power over death and the entrance into the third heaven by way of paradise; it was His faith that has been given to us; His faith that pleases the Father; His faith alone that will have Heaven overflowing with grateful souls; the faith of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world; a faith housed in the Son for His Father by the power of the indwelling of the Spirit.
    • Meekness: Meekness is not weakness, but gentle spiritual power reigned in and ready for use; meekness is a quality few genuinely ask for in this life; it is mostly mistaken for becoming the doormat of the world; especially toward those loved ones who continually take advantage of the dove like souls of believers; however meekness is more to be compared to the perfect balance of being gentle like a dove and wise as a serpent; it is a combination of attributes commanded of us as followers of Christ and when it is balanced; there is nothing that can withstand it; it requires all of the attributes we have so far examined; it takes love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, and faith, for meekness to be produced within the believer’s spirit; all the great men of God were meek; Jesus Himself tells us He is meek and lowly; the spiritual meekness spoken of here actually gains ground whilst seeming to acquiesce to whatever opposes it; it is the perfect picture of the crucifixion; what seemed utter defeat in the eyes of the worldly and the darkness manipulating them; was in effect the greatest victory of meekness ever recorded. This meekness of God defeated the enemy in a single blow when the enemy was sure he had the upper hand… Until it was too late. I am sure meekness is one of the attributes that still mystifies the enemy and all those who continue to wilfully follow him to his utter defeat.
    • And finally Temperance: the battle of the spirit over the flesh and all the appetites the flesh is obsessed with; the lust of the eyes; the imbalance the enemy loves to have occur in the life of any and all believers; when Paul said he was content with any circumstance; with abundance or with nothing; it was temperance he was talking about and it was a great weapon in this man’s arsenal. You could not, in the end, defeat this man of God no matter what you offered, or threatened to take away; you could put him in the darkest dungeon and he would sing and evangelise all night long day after day after day; you could organise a mob to frighten him and he would confront the mobs with a well honed speech of salvation; you could organise his capture, nothing; stone him, zilch; wrongly accuse him and drag him to court; de-nada; nothing frightened this man; he had been encouraged by being allowed to view the third heaven; something he was not to speak about; a gift from God perhaps to prepare him for the terrible hardships and abuses ahead; you could threaten to take this man’s life and his level of spiritual temperance was so high and balanced; he would have attempted to evangelise his murderer with his last breath; very much like his younger brother, Stephen. Temperance, like meekness, is a very powerful attribute to house; when it has been tried and fashioned to perfection within a spirit there is no weapon formed that can prosper against it; not lies, not slander; not tale bearing, not even murder.
    In the end, when all is said and done; these fruits of the Spirit who indwells us because we have come to believe and are born again from above are as much an act of divine grace as is justification, sanctification and redemption; it takes time; opposition; heartache and great trust of God to have them developed within us; the kind of trust a son has for a father; a servant has for his master; a soldier has for his commander in chief; it is a list of attributes that develop into something the Book of Proverbs describes as “He that is slow to anger, (exhibiting love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance) is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth, (with all of these spiritual attributes), his spirit than he that taketh a city.”(Proverbs 16:32) or the same thing told in the opposite manner, where no fruit of the Spirit exists: “He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.” (Proverbs 25:28)
    (Bracketed add-ons mine)

  42. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    randall lowrey– Amen!
    And I would like to add a bit of wisdom concerning the enemy’s tactics.
    We see, on this website, a video concerning the atrocities carried on by a few ministries.
    We must be aware. Often times the devil will put this sort forth, only to attract attention and distract us so we might say, “look at this nonsense.”
    But while the whole time millions are being led astray in the smaller local ministries by only a few, less obvious errors.

  43. Kjersti K May 1st 2013

    How sad something like this is needed to be written. It’s obvious, isn’t it that to look for signs, to force signs to happen, to push people to the ground, to use songs of worship as a mantra, to manipulate persons to give, to not stop preaching when the speech is given, to worship persons or acts instead of God, to force anyone to simulate the Holy Spirit and not showing respect for His Holiness or to try to force the effects of prayers through the loud – are not as we know our Lord wants our lives to be like. We live to honor Him, don’t we? It is not that hard to stop to endorse. It’s just to do it.

    Let’s arise to honor our Lord and King. Let’s be encouraged, near or far from any church, to stop watching or accepting these foolish and ungodly behaviors. Let’s receive His pure Spirit and praise Him!

  44. FOR IT IS GODS desire that none perish.
    THAT IS RIGHT. HE DESIRES none to perish.
    But rather that all men come to REPENTANCE
    and that means what it says. PETER was right.
    YET many men forget that repentance plays any part of salvation.
    a new creature is a new creature.
    and if one does not harden their heart
    THEY will be led of GOD to repentance.
    FOR tis the GOODNESS of GOD which leads us to repentance.
    ONE last time……………COME YE OUT FROM THESE men
    and READ from a pure , new heart on fire for TRUTH,
    amen. THAT simple. that easy burden which is light.
    HEED HIM. amen. and then take heed unto thy own body
    that you sin not.
    LET US WAIT on our gifts………..
    EXHORTATION………………………what a beatiful gift
    for the edifying of the body………………

  45. We must be aware. Often times the devil will put this sort forth, only to attract attention and distract us so we might say, “look at this nonsense.”
    But while the whole time millions are being led astray in the smaller local ministries by only a few, less obvious errors.
    amen DONALD………….
    or some even in the less obvious errors will see these
    and then make a massive mistake in COMPARING themselves to these men, and then justifying their own lesser evil, and remain still in their own darkness.
    men comparing themselves is vanity.
    IF we want TRUTH……………….LIVE as DID JESUS.
    i have often seen a wickedness in which
    many will remain in an evil they see as either lesser of the two
    or no evil at all……………and then JUSTIFY themselves to their own congregrations by attacking these evil men
    yet keeping some of these evil mens own pratices.
    take a bit, here, take a bit there.
    NO, its ALL TRUTH………………………..or it aint.
    be blessed DONALD……………….you are right.
    and the ONLY WAY one can become wise………………..
    IN CHRIST, in keeping in sound doctrine, in walking as did Christ.

  46. Reading this made me feel extra glad that I am not in the institutional church and haven’t been for many years. All of that stuff is just ridiculous, and always has been. I always wondered if worship was to focus on Jesus, why were we supposed to watch people waving flags instead of closing our eyes and trying to see the KING! In any case, this article helps one to see how far off the mark we have got. We need to shut the whole thing down and come back to *the heart of worship* like Matt Redman’s song said. What does ANY of this have to do with being Spirit filled and seeing God move by His Spirit? Nothing really…I love the moving of the Spirit, but haven’t seen Him move in a setting like has been mentioned, or only VERY rarely. I have seen Him move in the twos and threes and in the hearts of those who earnestly seek Him, many many times…..

  47. TODAY is the day………………
    ALL begin ANEW…………………may all BURN and YEARN
    for TRUTH,
    MAY all be lit on FIRE from above and fill us all with a PURE LOVE of THE TRUTH……………..
    FOR a heart AFTER GOD……………..and the saving of men.
    TO do all for the others sake. To put their welfare obove ours.
    TO serve from a pure heart. To walk as did CHRIST.
    TO SEEK OUT TRUTH, WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, from a CHARITY FILLED HEART, for prophecy for the edifying of the church………..that is our brethren.
    BURN AGAIN all peoples , BURN anew for our GOD
    DO all with a HEART FOR HIM and great love for others.
    LEAP and rejoice when you are persecuted………
    on your part HE IS GLORIFIED……..peter said that, its truth.
    HAVE a HEART FOR HIS WILL, put down all earthly things
    mind not earthly thinngs.
    GROW in the HOPE of HIS GRACE
    and SEEK HIM with the WHOLE heart
    KNOCKING upon the door, asking for the HOLY spirit
    and HOW much more he shall GIVE IT…………….
    THIS world has nuaght for me. and they can keep it all…….
    FOR i know in my heart………..I WOULD rather have suffered
    all the vengeance of men, and GOD be glorifeid
    than any life this world has to offer
    and all persecutions. of men………………facing even death
    that even ONE soul hear the gosple and be saved.
    LOVE OF TRUTH. amen.
    and TO GOD be all GLORY in CHRIST in us…………amen.
    SING lambs………………….
    the LORD used donald bring good encouraging words today
    and i am lifted up when i see a brother speak truth.

  48. Averyl May 1st 2013

    Randy, – AMEN!

    DonaldN, – excellent questions which need addressing.

    I must add that I don’t find such antics funny or entertaining.
    Instead, all of that deception is very sad, leading people astray & giving the world a false message about Christianity & our precious Lord & Saviour.

  49. Everywhere i see in this world, its evil, the evils of flesh
    is vexation of spirit………..
    SO TO HEAR A GOOD WORD……………………is like a GOOD fat cup of COLD water in a dry thirsty land.
    THANKS donald and a few others for some good words.
    LET us all learn and grow in Him……………
    for without CHRIST nothing is possible, BUT FAILURE.
    HE is our strenght in every time…………..our LIGHT by which we SEE………………GO and learn WHAT HE said……….
    and DO……………………and wait for the grace to be revealed in HIS DAY………..when all believers , followers of the LORD
    shall inherit a moment so joyful can no word ever express
    for it will be a day………….we are free from these bodies of death
    and evil will be NO MORE.
    LABOUR therefor……………………for our labor is not in vain
    in the LORD. amen. I love you all. be blessed and praise the LORD. amen.

  50. Marie May 1st 2013

    This is so true and humorous. But in serious contemplation about how we sometimes go overboard, it’s necessary.

    I’ve seen it all, maybe. I remember being at an altar with people worshipping and one woman became extremely joyful and started stamping her feet, she had on these spiked high heels and wham! right into the top of my foot. I was howling and bending in pain and sisters next to me thought, isn’t that nice, “she’s being touched”.

  51. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    What are their idols?
    What is their purpose?
    First and foremost, —Self—
    To achieve this purpose they have built themselves a tower and named it

    2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you

  52. Neville May 1st 2013

    Perhaps the cause should have been mentioned as well that they are not listening to The Spirit but to what others have said is good to do and by this sow they ae not Pentecostal or charismatic.

    The Spirit wold teach them true worship of they were listening to Him

  53. DonaldN May 1st 2013

    Many of us have come out of that church, but unfortunately, most of us are still wandering as sheep without a shepherd.
    God will not leave us alone, so we need to be watchful of what He is preparing for us.
    Many have tried starting new churches, home churches, etc. but most have failed. Still we must wait on God. He will not leave us alone.

  54. A good topic and so relevant for today. Some excellent responses here from Ken, Randall, Randy and others. Despite the fact that more Christians are awaking up to these deceptions, still many people are ‘taken in’ by it and I believe it is because they are not reading and studying the word of God for themselves or seeking God for the real truth. It is a pity the like minded people on this website could not be fellowshipping together!

    Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries has written an excellent article on ‘Being slain in the spirit” showing the error of its use in this time. But even some of the not so obvious ‘errors’ like the Alpha Course deception, Healing Rooms errancy, Rick Warren falsehood , etc, are operating wholesale in the denominational churches around my area as I write! What it boils down to -man does not consider the Holy Spirit and His Word sufficient enough to achieve GOD’s goals -ironic really isn’t it?

    With the mayhem created by all these ‘heresies’ it has also turned well meaning Christians and church groups off embracing anything of the spiritual nature of God but that is also to their detriment. They have thrown the ‘baby out with the bathwater’ so to speak. Now the Holy Spirit Himself has been thrust outside the church doors because HE represents a threat in the ‘spiritual’ arena. The word Laodiean-means church ruled by man and not the Holy Spirit. So now we have the CEO model of church, as well as the previous errancies!

    But Jesus is preparing HIS bride -the invisible church (as against the visible and growing apostate church). The calling out process will be part of the bridal preparation but the some of bride will still exist in the ‘visible church’ as well.

    May we all strive not to be counted among the great apostasy in progress now and worsening in the future. Keep up the great sharing and discussions.

  55. Ministry can be soulish – man centred, or ministry can be spiritual – Christ centered. It is very easy for me to mimic the soulish ‘form’ of patterns of others that were once initiated by the Holy Spirit during former seasons of revival in our churches past. Discernment however requires of me a humility to accept the difference between the ‘forms’ of my religion, verses the ‘content’ of my religion. They are not the same. I think that we all struggle confusing these two differing aspects of our faith. Forms change like the shifting shadows in each subculture and within each hour of the day. The content of my salvation however, will never change. The content of our faith is the pulsing heart of obedient love. This is built daily in acts of service to our Lord and master over a lifetime. This is the ‘content’ that will endure for eternity.

  56. chas351 May 1st 2013

    well written article full of Truth – thank you

  57. “When the early church prayed, the
    buildings shook. Today we shake our buildings by turning up the
    volume of our sound systems.”

    Very powerful rebukes. I wonder who is listening?

  58. Kitty May 1st 2013

    After working outside with the plants this morning I came in to rest, but was compelled to put something down that ran through my mind while I was working in the garden.

    Lead us not into temptation, deliver us from evil…..all about mankind. 6 is the number of man and 6 critical teachings were given to man to lead him out of the temptation that is coming, and to deliver him from evil that is coming…..so that those who Follow the Way of Jesus Christ will not be tempted and will be delivered from evil.

    1=Abraham’s Love Priority
    2=10 Commandments
    3=Shepherding provided through prophecy in (Daniel, & Old Testament Prophets )
    4=Lord’s Prayer given by Jesus Christ
    5=Shepherding provided through prophecy (Jesus Christ & Revelations)
    6=Alpha and Omega Concept: The First and the Last (7th)

    1=When Omega comes to set up a new dispensation (Millennium Day (1,000 years) of the LORD, we will be tested as was Abraham. Abraham’s test was: Who does he honor, obey, and love more…..his family or his God. Most Christians love their family more, unlike the muslims who love their satanic god more than their family. How our Lord will cringe when it comes time for the Abrahamic test that will be applied to all Believers in the latter day, when the muslims are already willing to die for their dragon of hate, but the Christians are not willing to die and see their children starve or go hungry….without caving in to the “mark” to save them. They will say, “Surely God will understand, after all He wants me to protect my family, not realizing that if he does so, he has just placed his entire household under the authority of satan. Just as when the head of the household in the New Testament believed on Jesus Christ, it was given to his household also.

    2=10 Commandments is part of how God leads us…first four are all about that He comes first, over all things, including family. Clear as day, no grey areas…clearly spelling out the Abrahamic test that will come, and what our priorities should be.

    3=To help us God gave us clues as to what would happen and the timelines in the latter day before Omega returned. “Shepherding” information was given to Daniel concerning the length of days and on what day certain things would happen in the Latter Day of the Lord’s coming. But the dragon deceived the church (but not the true Followers of Jesus Christ) by teaching them that they will be raptured away before they have to have any test in this dispensation. Those Followers of Jesus Christ who pass this test and are transformed while alive at the 7th trump, and those who are a part of the first resurrection (those who died for Jesus Christ already….not just those who died thinking they were christian….but those that were willing to give their lives for God….and God knows their hearts….so many of them did not have to actually demonstrate this passion, but in their hearts they knew they would if required….it was part of their faith, this would include the martyrs of the past, and those who are dying right now in the Islamic/muslim countries because they will not renounce their faith and take another.)….these Saints will be transformed, and these Saints will not have to experience the last test at the end of the Millennium when the bound dragon of this dispensation, is unbound once more. This is the “test” that scriptures says the Saints will be spared……not the one coming soon. Many of the Old Testament prophets were given information concerning this latter times….so we could be Shepherded (guided) appropriately. Those who care to learn. (Most churches of today do not teach these things because they smugly feel that they will escape all things, and many became christians for their own personal gain, not because of their understanding of their own personal lack of self worth, and their need for salvation.

    4=Jesus Christ gave us the perfect Lord’s Prayer to show us the priority of what to pray for, ( His Will) and to let us know that a temptation is coming, and we need Him to lead us out of it….and than to deliver us from evil. They are linked….one test coming in our future….soon. Christians will be here….it happens before the rapture. But most churches don’t teach the Lord’s Prayer….calling it repetitious, but yet carry their congregations to a frenzy with their repetitive frenzied prayer, and music, dance, and worship, to produce an emotional high which in fact can lead to satanic possession, and that has nothing to do with the sound reasoning of the Lord.

    5=Jesus Christ also gave us signs for the latter day so that His followers would not be deceived, and would be watching so that the thief cannot enter their household unaware (as has the thief entered many organized churches of man, because they don’t teach all of the Bible and God’s Word…especially what I am laying out right now…..which is one of the keys to discernment of what is coming, and to true Worship and prayer.

    6=Most churches not only don’t teach the Alpha and Omega of God, but they deliberately profane the Alpha who came first to restore the earth and redeem fallen man, and conquer the evil of what the dragon does and will do. The first Seal is ALPHA on a white (pure and holy) horse, one crown because He is King of all creation, coming to conquer the dragon and all evil. They totally wait for the false antichrist to come on the white horse, the first seal, profaning my LORD! My LORD is the first and the last seal on the scroll! The ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. He wears many crowns when HE comes back to fight the 7th Battle after the 7th trumpet sounds, bringing with Him the Vials of Fire of Wrath that burns the tares….many crowns because He now is KING OVER EVERY KINGDOM OF EARTH. No more man rule…imperfect, unworthy man. The Age of Man is over…..the tares have been burnt….only those who were willing to die for another to help them during these times make it into the Millennium in their flesh bodies, but they will no longer rule themselves…..GOD RULES, IRON ROD! No more grey areas that man can pervert for his own means, and for his own gain and his own worship.

    No where in the Bible does God say the First Seal is the antichrist. That was taught by man, yet most all of man’s churches have been sucked into that teaching…insulting the Lord! Totally revealing that they have no concept of parable teaching where God’s symbols never cross over to represent good one time and evil the next. No wonder the churches are dead, and no longer have the power of God unless it is faked most of the time…or a coincidence.


    Second Seal: The Dragon/Apostasy, conflict, murder, wars

    Third Seal: Commerce/Economy/man’s greed/ World Bank/ Globalism/ resulting in Famine.

    Fourth Seal: False worship, anti-christ worship, which causes forever death and hell, with power to kill 1/4 of the earth.

    All of the first four Seals, (Spirits of God’s Eyes, watching what man does with these spirits), were on earth in the Old Testament, (Zechariah, Chapter 5 and 6)….as was the scroll that went forth separating the liars on ones side and the murders on the other….both of which are the foundations of evil. John was given revelations in God’s time zone….and the scroll that only the LAMB was able to open, was the Scroll of our Redemption with the Seals representing the Seven Eyes that were upon the LAMB. This Scroll was not about the Latter Times, BUT about our entire time on earth! John would not have wept and mourned if it was a scroll that represented only destruction!!!!! It was the SCROLL that started the WORK of JESUS CHRIST and such WORK would make possible the removal of the tares and make possible our RESTORATION back into the Family of God.

    Fifth Seal: Martyrs…those who will die for God Almighty, putting Him FIRST.

    Sixth Seal: Age of man’s rule, abominations, which brings in catastrophic events to open up the last Seal. This is the age wherein Christ gave to man (just as God gave to the Hebrews prior to Christ’s Sacrifice) the task of spreading His Kingdom over the entire world. But man failed Him, just as did the Hebrews, and instead, man set about building their own kingdoms, including the churches organized according to man’s dogma so they could condemn each other. God wanted man to spread His word via how man lived his life, loving his God, loving his neighbor, not being a liar, thief, murder, or a coveter….doing always his best efforts. Living a life that would have attracted all to them. But man wanted the POWER, the GLORY, the AUTHORITY!

    Seventh Seal: OMEGA…..DAY OF THE LORD! Our prayers for “Thy Kingdom come are answered! It is no longer in the hands of man, but totally in the hands of My LORD! Success at last!

    Here is the Temptation that is coming:

    The MARK will be required to buy or sell….that would include electricity and utilities (pray that it not be in the winter..or heat by wood or propane). When the false god has orchestrated his peace after killing 1/4th of the population over in the middle east, and those who come against him, he will after a certain amount of days require all to worship him. To participate in the World Global economic cashless money system, all will have to perform a pledge of this worship of him. Those who don’t ……..face starvation. Those who don’t know the timelines in the Bible that God put there to let them know….will be tempted to take the mark so that their families do not starve or suffer (putting their families love before their love of God Almighty, unlike Abraham). If they knew the timelines, and how short it would be before the 7th and last trumpet sounded, and if they knew the Abrahamic principle of love (God does not change) they would wait….(blessed are they that wait and come to the 1,335th day) and they would have prepared to help themselves during this time, and help others…..because it is not long. I am also recalling a scripture regarding how the family comes under what the head of the family believes.

    Church people make fun of those who want to know all of God’s Word….and by so doing…..they, in their pride fail to understand the warnings through God’s Biblical Prophets, and will not be prepared so they do not have to watch their families suffer. This is the temptation that we above all else pray to be lead away from…the worship of false gods. And, God has already led us away from that temptation, by putting all in His Word…..but the foolish ones, they look to man, instead of ALL of His Word.

    The Sixth Seal…..the age of man’s false glory…..the age of his foolishness and pride…..the age that we are now in which can put shame within the churches just like the thieve that enteres the master’s household when no one was watching.

  59. House churches are only as good as the people in them. It always comes down to being a people that seek and know their God, who will allow Jesus to be the Head of His church. If we do that, when we come together, it will function and bring life….this is in response to those who are out in the wilderness hoping for some kind of spiritual *home*…..

  60. Quentin Smith May 1st 2013

    I have seen many strange things done in the “Name Of the Holy Spirit”, and it is anything but. Before I was saved I was a black Warlock and saw similar things in the occult. It has taken me many years to get to the point where I can ignore the falseness of some people and listen to what GOD wants me to do. The message I constantly receive from GOD is to worship in spirit and in truth. Not to put on a performance for others to see. I love Jesus with all my heart body and soul, I love the gifts of the Holy spirit, and are always learning how to use them better and teach others how to use their gifts. My plumbob of any “spiritual encounter” is do I feel the love of GOD in this ( 1 Corinthians 13) if not then it is man made Hype, or worse still Demon worship.
    The truth of the matter for me is that an encounter with the Holy Spirit will always bear fruit in some form or another, it will change your life if you allow the Holy Spirit to do so. My life was change by such an intervention of the Holy Spirit that I run away from the Occult and embraced God the Father, God the Son, & Holy Spirit all because of the Love that I received in that moment it.

  61. That’s a good word which you share Quentin regarding love being the plumb-bob of any experience, the Presence of God and being in His Presence will always change us into the Image of Jesus, sometimes there is sadness before the joy, “weeping may last for an evening but joy comes in the morning), Love in the Lord, Andrew

  62. Richard Savage May 1st 2013

    Storm, a person I don’t often see eye to eye with, posted in the last thread, 5 Keys:

    Isn’t it interesting that Jesus thought the MOST IMPORTANT “going away gift” ” parting gift” to those who He loved and cared for was THE HOLY SPIRIT!!

    It disturbs me a lot, of the hundred or so posters on this forum, there are barely two or three who agree, yet all would assume they are led of the Holy Spirit. Now, folks, something’s wrong here. Someone needs to put their head on the block and ask a very difficult question. Wassup?

    Given the Holy Spirit acting in the Body of Christ is like a conductor of a symphony orchestra, we must expect harmony but not unison in the rendering. Yet the end product will be harmonious and pleasing. Won’t it?

    So where’s the harmony here?

    I take Storm’s point very seriously; there has been a major lack in my own understanding, a dependence on the translated word and not sufficient dependence on the Holy Spirit to interpret that written word for me.

    For those who will jump to the wrong conclusion, it is not an either or, rather who’s voice speaks loudest. Have I understood aright the written, translated word, or, in my pride and stubbornness, have I grieved the Holy Spirit?

    I’ll keep you posted!

  63. Darren Sargent May 1st 2013

    Back to the article:

    I don’t doubt that what Lee has said is an accurate and fair reflection of the current state of play. I applaud the guts for saying this publicly. The list of grievances seem most reasonable, but there is still something that troubles me.

    There is a jokey tenor to the piece, most probably intended to broach a sensitive subject and not to appear too critical. Lee admits laughing at these ‘things’ himself and he gives them familiar names such as “the body slam”. Even a couple of contributors to this forum have admitting laughing out aloud.

    But what are the grounds for Lee’s objections?

    “Over the past four decades, we
    charismatics have invented some lame practices that not only
    make us look silly but actually turn people off to our message.
    I figure we started these behaviors because of immaturity—and
    I can laugh about them because I’ve done some of them myself.
    But it’s 2013, and I think God expects more of us…”

    He says, “we look silly”, that these practices are “lame”, and we are turning people off. Yes, they do look silly and yes we are turning people off, but is that the only ground for objection? Are we really considering how we look? Do we still want to look informed, wise and cool? Do we object because this stuff doesn’t ‘work’? That if we want people in church we should have stuff that ‘works’ and doesn’t make us look so idiotic?

    Lee’s reasoning: this is the type of thing we do when we are young and immature. Maybe. But an infant craves pure spiritual milk. Has Lee excused this on the basis that we are young? But NOW! we know better because we have grown up, that there is something special in 2013. There is something sophisticated and knowing in this reasoning. As if these ‘dodgy’ practices have been written off under the banner of ‘enthusiastic but misguided’. I know that everything should be done in an orderly way, but if we are concerned for being “goofy” rather than offending God then the reasons for objection maybe false . . . maybe.

    When we laugh at something serious, we are attempting not to be affected by it. Surely this laughter at yourself should give way to a wince of embarrassment and pain on behalf of Father-God? Tears? Nowhere does Lee call this sin.

    Brothers and sisters, this is sin, and serious sin at that. God does not laugh at this, it is painfully tragic. The person of the Holy Spirit comes in for some special protection and provision by the Godhead. The sins that Lee rightly catalogues are against Him and Him only. We are veering onto the territory of despising God publicly, lying about God and manipulating and trafficking in God. Annanias and Saphira know of this. Moses acted out of turn once and did not hallow God in full view of the Israelites – he did not enter the Promised Land as a result.

    Laughter is not the appropriate response; clucking our tongues and rolling our eyes is not commensurate with the severity of sin outlined here. God’s soul is in anguish for the judgement He will have to pour out for this sin. This is not immaturity, as if it is a stage everyone goes through: kids will be kids! It is sin, clear and simple. The ground of our objection has to be true and valid, our foundations must be authentic, otherwise our forms of ‘religion’ will not match its content. And if the content does not determine the form then our religion is false.

    I genuinely applaud Lee, honest I do. But we must share in the pain our Lord feels over this situation. If we wink and giggle at it, do we ourselves excuse some other sin in our lives? Have we repented? Is our sin ever before us? Or are we slovenly and slack somehwere else in our life?

    Grace to All

  64. wineskin May 1st 2013

    The inhabitants of Christianity shouldn’t be too shocked or incensed by the spiritual lunacy that has bubbled to the top of their world. The Christians have done this nonsense to themselves, whether it was through personal participation, indulgence, tolerance, apathy, timidity or ignorance. Is it any surprise, as a predictable result, the watching world rightfully scoffs at Christianity’s lack of in-house discipline and common sense?


    Christianity’s self-corruption has every one of it’s servants in it’s grips. Many everywhere, including here, are finally cringing and crying Wolf!—but too late, brethren—Christianity’s condition, as we see it, is beyond internal rescuing. The WHOLE LOAF became leavened (full of hot air) and it started happening the day the servants of Christ decided they could serve two masters: Christ AND Christianity.

    The problem will go on and on until a few get brave enough to get out of their Christianity rut and back on path with Christ….and at that very moment their problem with Christianity will be solved. 😀

  65. I totally AGREE. When I was 19 sincere members of a pentecostal youth group tried to get me to “prime the pump” as you put it and just begin speaking in tongues… I refused, brought it to the Lord in prayer. I said, “If this is real then Holy Spirit you will have to show me.” Shortly thereafter HE did!.

  66. Kevin May 2nd 2013

    Richard Savage,

    Regarding what you posted above :

    The Holy Spirit led Jesus immediately into the dessert where He overcame the flesh ( no food 40days ) overcame the world ( refused to bow to satan for earthly kingdoms )and overcame the devil ( rejected the call to test God )

    So this was Jesus going through the dessert and coming out having overcome the world the flesh the devil.

    We don’t follow His example so this leads to a mixture of Holy Spirit and flesh along with worldly desires along with influence from the deceiver, which leads to the lack of being unified by the Holy Spirit,,,

    ,,,,and regarding the topic of this thread, all the strange and mixed up representations of what is claimed to be the Holy Spirit

  67. chas351 May 2nd 2013
  68. margaret May 2nd 2013

    I was saved froma deep chasm of sin, at the time of and in the midst of the Discipleship movement of the 70’s. Ern Baxter and others spoke at many conferences in Australia about what he called ‘cafeteria Christianity’, which was the description of what had become of the charismatic move. Those elder statesmen and teachers including Derek Prince spoke then of a new move of God of the Apostolic and Prophetic, and mentioned that the new move always is persecuted by the last move of God. There is an underground movement hidden in the bowels of the Body at this time; it is an apostolic revelational movement ,and with prophetic evangelism is the foundation of the church. It is a fire that cannot be put out.It is the time for apostles and prophets Ephesians 2:20…….Take hold of the chief cornerstone Jesus on which the church is to be built with the foundation of apostles and prophets. There will always be persecution…………

  69. Bill Bremer May 2nd 2013

    Right on.

  70. Please allow me to make my boast in the Lord! Look at this as testimony to His care and faithfulness!
    I have been Spirit filled for over 40 years and have attended the same fellowship in that period. We have grown from half a dozen churches then, (and that only in Australia), to over three hundred in about 30 countries – hard to keep track of because we are growing every day – I have never witnessed or heard of any of the points Lee Grady mentions. above manifest in any of our meetings!
    Why is this so? Because Christ is the Head of the Church and His word is the only standard. Sound doctrine must always prevail!
    And yes in every one of our gatherings the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are manifested as scripture says -decently and in order!
    Our “apostles”over 60 years ago left a corrupting “pentecost” movement , a handful of faithful men could see form the Bible that excesses were being latched on to , “Theatricals” were being performed and promoted by Spirit filled folk who supposedly had become knowledgeable on demons. In effect the devil was being glorified – given credence to- in the church a doctrine (teaching) of devils was accepted, in some bible schools whole terms were devoted to the study of demonology. the devil was being blamed for every hiccup, every thing was being “cast out” – including the kitchen sink!
    We split from this and The Lord has blessed us ever since..I might add It did not take a supernatural discernment to see the error! the ansaved can see it!
    Jesus said if our eye was single our whole body would be full of light – no room for darkness!
    When we receive the Holy Spirit we receive the “Promise of The Father” the now “Light of the world” plus the dunamis (power) and exousia (privilege – authority) of God, He said he would never leave or forsake us “Behold! I am with (in),you always” Our bodies are His Temple!
    IF Satan can penetrate this fortress “….My church….the gates of hell shall not prevail…against it” then the jig is up, darkness would be greater than light, another blatant satanic lie.
    The answer is to “walk in the Spirit and we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh” Plainly what many sadly call the work of the devil is just that, the lust of the flesh, thus it is our own fault. We are to rejoice in the Lord (His joy is our strength) and cease from sin. Period.
    Any group that calls itself a Church and continues with or condones these excesses, is in great error and needs to clean up its “act” no pun intended.
    Awake to righteousness and sin not!.
    We now have the Mind of Christ a sound mind, let us promote this to the world, and leave the theatricals in the world’s theaters where they belong. I can assure all, you lose nothing of value, God will bless any move away from these things.
    In Love Pr Michael

  71. Austin May 2nd 2013

    Andrew, Hi!
    yep, I suppose that we’ve all been there in the moment and done and said (in tongues OR English) stupid things.

    I well remember a ministry tape by Johnny Ortiz during the Argentinan revival, about not ‘playing basketball with a brother’s head’ while praying for him to be filled with the Spirit” – ha ha ha – me too…

    And then there was this silly concept that somehow or other, the Holy Spirit is wrapped around the chandelier from Sunday night through to the following Sunday morning, when He very graciously unwraps Himself, and then begins to do whatever we ask of him – sure. A lady in the Lord opened my eyes many years ago, that gifts of the Spirit are useless if used just on Sundays – they are for every day of the week, not just when ‘pastor so and so or sister such and such’ ascends the platform, and begins to “loose the power of God, in JESHUSH’ NAME” sounding very spiritual as they go.

    I agree, as Paul said “when I was a child, I played with spiritual building blocks, but when I became a man, I put the building blocks away, and began to begin to build the Kingdom of God set in stone…” (Austin Hellier paraphrase…)

  72. Serenity May 2nd 2013

    Too true this article. What a scandal – (something that makes people stumble away from saving faith).

    Like you Averyl, this carry-on makes me weep.
    Satan and the world laugh at such fruitless antics.
    The Trinity and the holy angels must be heartbroken at the gullibility and stupidity of ”Christians” who dishonour the Lord with such goings-on.

    Charismania is totally different to true Biblical Pentecostal belief and practice.

    Great testimony, Pastor Michael.

    Wonderful to have you in the family of God, brother Quentin Smith !

    And I always love to hear your heartfelt wisdom, brother Anthony Donaghey. God bless you, brother !

  73. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013

    May 1st 2013

    GaryB, hope you are here from 5 Keys posts.

    Re: My wife just read one of Bevere’s books and thought it was very good, called “The Fear of the Lord”. I am going to read it next also a friend said the one on “Fear and intimidation” was excellent.

    I have never heard of this guy before. They say he is very sound in doctrine.

    I have found his doctrine sound, his writings quite articulate and easy to digest. You have SO salted the oats for me. Now I must order this one I haven’t read “Fear and intimidation”. Thanks for the heads-up. God Bless 🙂

  74. Brother Amartey May 2nd 2013

    So much for charismatic nonsense and stupidity !

  75. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013


    I do believe much of people leaning into the false prophetic, etc, is due to:

    1. A lack of Fear of God, resulting in a fear of men (man’s approval)
    2. People fear men and are intimidated at the prospect of being rejected by men, so they conform rather than react to, what they may question in their spirit.

    Again, thankyou. I look forward to reading this one as well.

  76. haven May 2nd 2013

    Maybe it is a good idea to put the sexual energy that is passed off as an anointing on the list too.

  77. Bill Harper May 2nd 2013

    There are some very good points being made here. – courtesy drop: I went to a prayer meeting a few times where those attending stood in a circle holding hands and praying. A character that wore a hoody around town all day even in very hot weather was recognized by regular people as “having something wrong with him” in that he was not mentally right, but he attended these prayer meetings and the pastor said “he really loves the Lord, he gets slain in the Spirit everytime we have a prayer circle. I stood next to him once holding his left hand with my right. When I felt him starting to go down I pulled up on his hand and he didn’t go down. He left town within a week. Never ending song: This goes for choruses too: Some places they have sung choruses over and over and over. Telethon offering: add to that taking 3 offerings in a single service. Ear shattering amplification: Personally I like music without amplification. While Church of Christ doesn’t believe in much of the things in the Bible, especially concerning Spiritual gifts, and they don’t have musical instruments in the church, their vocal music is far more beautiful sometimes than the loud noise of amplification of the church I took my grandson out of when he was 4 years old because he had to put his fingers in his ears because the music was so loud. I realize none of us are perfect, and that it is too easy to find fault at times, but God did give us some common sense that too often isn’t being used. In Christian Love, Bill

  78. You know if ‘falling in the Spirit’ is normal ‘being touch by the Spirit’ behavior why is it that it is not once mentioned in the New Testament and why is it that as Jesus himself walked the streets during his ministry no one ever fell in the Spirit, nor had convulsions or any of those strange behaviors displayed by so many? If any one should have been slain would it not have been those who encountered Him. The woman with the blood issue touched the hem of Jesus’ garment and was … healed not slain, no convulsions, no drama, just miraculously healed and she praised God. If slain is a Spirit encounter result, Jesus, carrying with him all the power of the Spirit, should, as he walked the street, have seen everyone just dropping like leaves at his approach. Nowhere do you find people who received the laying of the hands ever was ‘slain in the Spirit’ in the New Testament, even on the day the 120 received the Spirit and tongues of fire laid over their heads, even then not one slain…. all standing… Draw near to God and enjoy His presence, rejoice in His love and praise Him when you witness or experience His wonders and miracles, please quit making a fool of the Holy Spirit and watch out to not let the Kundalini spirit show his face in your place of worship and be a counterfeit of the real One and Only Holy Spirit of Almighty God the results don’t even compare.

  79. Darleen Bradley May 2nd 2013

    Went to a Nancy Harmon concert and had to sit out doors to keep it from hurting my ears.
    20 yrs ago I told a Preacher who was praying for me to stop pushing me.!
    I have seen the real thing and I can tell when it is phoney! Do not feel like it pleases God any.
    I told one Preacher that we need to be quiet before the Lord and let the Holy Spirit lead. He said, and I quote, “I will direct the Holy Spirit”. This is why I do not go to church.!
    Been to every one in this town, and never found one where the presence of God is.

  80. Janine Henschel May 2nd 2013

    AMEN TO THATBROTHER !! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS BROTHER !! I totally believe that if a person prays for you and you don’t go down then its a BAD REFLECTION on them and that people will NOT THINK that they are NOT ANOINTED or POWERFUL or BEIING USED BY Yesha ? They care MORE about what people THINK than what Abba THINKS !! Then if you don’t go down, then they KEEP PRAYING hoping that you do and teach that if you don’t fall down that you MUST have a DEMONIC SPIRIT in you ! I have had many people TRY to PUSH me down and I pushed right back !!! I HATE that

    Amen The worship NEEDS to KNOW by the spirit WHEN to stop a song, I have gotten so TIRED of repeatiing the SAME thing over and over and then I just start speaking in tongues because I feel its like beatiing a dead horse and they go into the FLESH and the ANOINTING HAS LEFT !

    I feel if they want to do FLAGS then it should be done in the back of the church, unless its a SPECIAL dance then its ok to have them up front but I have seen so many PEOPLE so engrossed in the dancers instead of worshiping Yahhweh and then if you close your eyes, you can’t SEE THEM ANYWAY so WHAT is the POINT of having them up front ? its takes the ATTENTION off worshipping Yeshua and its an INTERRUPTION and DISTURBANCE and ATTENTION to self

    Yes I LOVE the word and I don’t mind listening to it but then it can just go OVERBOARD to where you are LOSING PEOPLE because the SERMON DRAGS ON AND ON and the speaker needs to have the eyes on the people and if they are getting tired, then instead of your AGENDA to end it and not yes continue to say IN CONCLUSION and then they don’t end. And the title message shouldn’t be LONGER than the regular message and I have seen that it has become that and pastors have said that because the don’t see people giviing that the should TEACH on it MORE ??? yes if longer than 10 minutes it does BECOME ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

    OH THAT is a BIG pet PIEVE of mine, ha the LOUD MUSIC, so LOUD that at this one church they had told the leaders that we couldn’t even HEAR the people talkiing when asking them what they wanted prayer for ??? There should be soft instumental music so that you can HEAR the word of the Father instead of BLARING LOUD music while ministering and I have also went to visit other churches and HAD TO PUT paper in my ears because the music is so LOUD or the MIKE IS SO LOUD !!!

    Yes I don’t believe in asking someone to say PRAISE YOU PRAISE YOU REPEATEDLY when prayiing for tongues, but to just say to worship HIM and in your own words and the HOLY SPIRIT WILL FILL THEM IF THEY ARE SPEAKING and opening their mouth, ha
    I have NEVER heard ANYONE say “I tie the bow ??? is that just an example ? lol

    Another of my pet pieves is to have the Air Conditioner so COLD that people are FREESING and its so UNCONFORTABLE that your bones start aching and I CAN NOT CONCENTRATE on the message because I am so cold and have to go out to the FOYER just to get some HEAT ! I am all for it to be cool but not FREESING ok If the pastor SEES EVERYONE WITH A COAT on or PUTTING on a coat, then he should think of others MORE HIGHLY than himself and take off his jacket if its hot

    Shalom and be blessed,

  81. For Richard Savage -I disagree and reading carefully what responders are sharing, there is actually a common agreement on this topic and other topics posted so far. People are honestly sharing from their own personal experiences, as well as sharing what they have received from God. No-one on this post so far is in agreement with the errancies of these so called spiritual practices in the greater church community and it is refreshing to see. They have all identified and shared about the errors of being slain in the spirit, the idolatry and loudness of music and entertainment, the charismatic manipulation of the money preachers, the false signs and wonders in movements such as Toronto and so on. The ones who would not agree and are being duped, would probably not enter into debate on this website anyway. There are some great personal testimonies from responders as well, people who have travelled a long hard road in their personal lives, people who have been persecuted for holding on to the truth in their church communities and are still isolated in their walk with God, but not by choice. We are all on a spiritual journey to HIM, but HE alone has the power to see into our hearts and discern what lies within. He knows those who belong to HIM -My sheep hear my voice and they follow me -Christ the Good Shepherd -Amen.

  82. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    Here is an interesting heads up for all.
    A ‘friend’ of mine, who ministers in the excitement and blessing area, and believes in the drunkenness, told me this recently.

    Look at Acts 2:16-20. Notice what the signs are that were spoken by the Prophet Joel and compare them to what was happening in the upper room. They were not the same things happening as what was prophesied, but according to Peter it was the fulfillment of the prophecy.

    His point was that we cannot know exactly what the fulfillment will look like.

    My warning is this, These preachers are beginning to say that what they are doing does not have to be the same as what the Word of God says.

    This opens them up to ‘anything goes’ once again, and also excludes them from any correction.

  83. Let’s not forget the Gifts of the Spirit are that – gifts. The Gifts He gives us are subject to us . !st Cor 14
    “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
    Paul also wrote “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.”
    It’s up to us as stewards to use the gifts we have, in context, for edification, comfort, encouragement, as demonstration of the Spirit and power of God 1st Cor 2.4
    When we give our children a gift we teach them to cherish it and to use it for good cause and we make them aware that this gift is now theirs and they are responsible for the use of it.
    So also with the gifts of God to us. we are responsible for the way we use these gifts in our walk with him .
    Moses was reminded by God of what was in his hand “Your rod – stretch it out over the water” was the command.
    We need to be constantly mindful as Peter said “…. I stir up your pure minds (Christ minds) by way of remembrance…..” :of our privileged position and ability in Christ, in all humility and love, to use what He has given us.. First to benefit others -then what ever we need is supplied.(added) Solomon asked first on behalf of the people, Israel. God gave Solomon what was needed for Israel plus over, above and beyond what he did not ask .
    We do this, as Jesus demonstrated, with unconditional love. only then is our faith (again the faith He gave us) able to work the miracle works of God, for benefit, of others, because the faith to use the gifts decently and in order works through the unconditional love (fruit of the Spirit) that is spread abroad from the abundance in our new hearts The overflowing river of life welling up from our innermost (now Godly ) being.
    No amount of discussion, words, or conjured acts in churches, can bring this about until/unless we transform the sincere milk of the Word into meat, getting about our Fathers business and becoming doers! rather than forgetful hearers, always seeking after some “new thing”
    Pr Michael

  84. Our joy has nothing to do with our circumstances but everything to do with our surrender… 🙂

  85. Elmarie Bouwer May 2nd 2013

    Hi Lee

    You probably get this a lot but I need to say it again: well written!!!
    Your entire article is spot-on and I have commented on all these weird practices myself many times. Thanks for listening to the Holy Spirit and thank you also for being obedient in posting what you’ve written.

  86. Hi again -some wonderful sharing of like minded believers. I visited a church one Sunday morning called Freedom Church.
    that I had heard about in my local area. Well I honestly thought I had entered a mental institution. I have worked in mental health
    many years ago, so am not unfamiliar with such contexts. The music was loud and droneless, the two Indian looking musicians were convulsing with their heads and I discerned some ‘other’ spirits over them -New Age or Asian Hindu type spirits of religion, one man was running round the perimeter of the obloing room in running shoes, like he was in a gym training session, some other men in the side were definitely manifesting (and not the Holy Spirit) and I could not wait for it to finish. I made myself sit through the teaching and then made a hasty retreat.
    Another Elim Church I visited also in my local area, the once again secular lifeless music was so loud it hurt my ears. An usher showed me a seat where the noise might be less, but I had such sore ears I left before the session started. I spoke to the door ushers and said “I didn’t realise God was deaf, but if I stay here I certainly will be!”
    Looking round these churches there seemed to be ordinary ‘sane’ people sitting in the rows, so why were they accepting this ‘nonsense’. Has the devil so duped people these days or have they never had the opportunity to be in His real presence.
    It is definitely not safe to be in many churches these days. Outside the camp is very preferable.

  87. Marilyn Crow May 2nd 2013

    Darren Sargent, I appreciated your astute comments.

    Concerning the `9 bad Charismatic habits we need to break,` I believe that they are the result of a specific error that has come into the Pentecostal/Charismatic denominations over the past 20 years.

    I refer to the `me/myself/& I` my ministry, my dreams, my ambitions, my….. & this has arisen from a misinterpretation of Jeremiah 29: 11.

    For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare & not for calamity to give you a future & a hope.`

    God is talking to Israel there as a nation & not to us as the Body of Christ. People take that to themselves & believe God is going to fulfill their dream, their ministry, their this, their that.

    What God has promised to the Body of Christ is to make us like Christ, & that involves going through trials, testings & dying to self. (as we would all know here.)

    Think of the Apostle Paul & the beatings, abuse & ridicule he received. Is that `the plan of God,` for Paul. No. But amid evil God was working in Paul so that he went from `the least of Apostles,` to `the least of saints,` & `I`ve learned to be content in all situations.`

    We can`t get rid of these `9 bad habits,` & other wrong thinking, unless we address the root cause, foundations as Darren Sargent said, and that it is not about us ….`Looking unto my ministry…`

    but `looking unto JESUS.` & I`m singing to the choir.


  88. Richard Savage May 2nd 2013

    AM, whilst I understand your point, I referred to the forum, which is the collective of all threads or topics, and not just this topic. I apologise for the confusion of terminology, and any concern it has caused you.

    I totally agree with your post. This is one of the few topics/threads, where so many people have come together in one mind and one heart to denounce these charlatans and share their experiences.

    It was personal frustration and complete lack of understanding of where the Pentecostal churches/charismatic outfits where taking me that caused a heartfelt, and repeated cry to the Lord, who called me out from them twenty years ago.

  89. GaryB May 2nd 2013

    Humorous article but so true. I was thinking everyone here could probably add some things that have gone on for years in charismatic churches.

    Lord Bless

  90. haven May 2nd 2013

    Add the offering plate to the list too. Better yet, nail the offering plate to the front door of the church and see how many of these hacks that can’t make it in the entertainment industry are still competing for the spotlight.

  91. David Marsh May 2nd 2013

    A great sadness of a chasing after the beautiful person of the Holy Spirit – and having almost no idea of how to go about it. Andrew mentions just a few of the embarrassing outcomes above.

    Men, it seems, never got together over the bible ( and with God) to find out how to properly access the person of God’s (Jesus’) Spirit.
    The scriptural understanding for the proper accessing of God’s Spirit will form the basis of the final Reformation of these last days. Just as it was during Pentecost, the apostles knew the Holy Spirit. They knew the sound of His voice. They knew how they were expected to work with Him. And they knew what was required personally, in order to maintain such a close walk with Him.

    It is not about an experience, it is about knowing Him, and becoming His faithful servant. But it has to be done according to the scripture – and no other way.

    God bless you guys
    David Marsh.

  92. I couldn’t agree more.

    The other disturbing side of this issue, though, is the way many charismatics deny that God still speaks to us or interacts with us tangibly. I’ve been told I have an “overactive imagination” even though what He has said to me or done with me is completely in line with Scripture, bearing good fruit and proving to be true (where prophetic). So, while I haven’t actually done the things you’ve mentioned here, I’ve found myself — more than once — on the wrong of charismatics. To be sure, these people proved to be ignoring or denying the Scriptures that were involved — even to the point of quenching the Spirit and keeping others from recognizing the truth — sort of a “you can’t be right, because I don’t want to deal with it approach”.

    So, I think the real issue is whether or not we can differentiate between our own longings and the Spirit’s. What He has shown me has often surprised and amazed me. What He has done with me — even more so. I think we need to be more pliable in His hands. Instead of so rigidly defining what we will let Him do. We should recognize that we are the clay and He truly is the Potter.

  93. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    I just read Andrew’s email entitled “Who is on the Lord’s side?”

    Unfortunately, Andrew did not set this up for comments.

    This writing, by David Wilkerson, actually goes together with this topic, since it deals with Moses asking the question, “Who is on the Lord’s side?” concerning the time when Israel was in rebellion. The Levites joined with Moses, separated themselves and then were commanded to execute judgement upon their brothers for their corruption.

    We might ask here again…

    “Who is on the Lord’s side?”

  94. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    Here is the link to David Wilkerson’s article


  95. Anthony Donaghey May 2nd 2013

    (Written in 2003/4)
    “And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”
    [Mattityahu 15:9 NKJ]

    If we look closer to home, (pay careful attention now, for it’s about to get a wee bit hot in the kitchen for some of us here), we can see that ‘churches’ that could once have been safely described as being evangelistic in nature are suffering from this very same spirit deceiving them into various other doctrinal errors.
    Over the last couple of decades the reformed ‘church’ has suffered from many different gimmicks and fads, (a Fad is defined as: ‘A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze).
    For example, there has been the craze of ‘Home-Groups’ when Protestant ‘churches’ worldwide dumped one of their mid-week meetings, usually Bible-Study-Groups, studying prepared notes from paperbacks by authors who had been perceived has having accomplished something earth-shattering within the ‘earthly’ Kingdom of God. Once upon a time it was the Bible itself that was being studied, but now, due mostly, it would seem, to individual apathy and down right bone-idleness, as well as an apparent lack of trust in the spiritual tutoring attribute Biblically ascribed to the Holy Spirit, it is authors such as Philip Yancy, Joyce Myers, Yongi Cho, and Rick Warren that are being studied, to name but a scant few. (I am not belittling individuals reading books written by Spirit led authors during their own leisure time, I am specifically talking about using them as some sort of guide to unearth Biblical truths during periods that used to be explicitly set aside to study the Bible within groups of believers with the guidance of the Holy Spirit).
    The next trend came with music, suddenly traditionally treasured Hymns, (disrespectfully labelled ‘Granny Music’ by the ‘Christian Youth’ of today), and individual members of the congregation who would break out into song under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to minister unto the gathered believers were being replaced by contemporary musical styles chosen beforehand by ‘Worship Group Leaders’. Usually the music was loud, following whatever model that was currently popular with the world, or more accurately, lagging ten or fifteen years behind whatever musical trends the world was devising, almost as if the Brady Bunch had gotten hold of the compositions of Metalica and were playing them with all the wildness of the Wiggles discovering Marlon Manson CDs for the first time. These ‘Worship Group Leaders’ were then quickly sent on ‘Courses’ on how best to manipulate the masses through emotionalism brought about by music, without, of course, calling it mass manipulation of the emotions brought about by music, choosing instead to call it a ‘Movement of the Spirit’. Great old God inspired hymns the likes of Amazing Grace” ‘Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but now I’m found, was blind, but now I see’, were pushed aside for songs like ‘Shake’: ‘The Holy Spirit’s got me pumpin’ flowin’ with a beat this whole place is jumpin’ it’s a sound and the demons can’t stand it, cus tonight we’re gonna’ shake this planet.’
    (Personally speaking I don’t believe for a second that the demon’s can’t stand this head-banging hip hop nonsense at all, I think they are very comfortable with it, in fact, given that the majority of these songs employ voodoo rhythms that gets the ‘congregation’ jumping up and down, shaking their ‘booty’ and moshing -excuse the pun – in the pit, I’d say it’s a pretty safe bet Satan’s hordes themselves are the ones responsible for originally creating the ‘sound’ the singers claim they can’t stand. Jimmy Hendrix’s drummer, for instance, stated in a popular music magazine that he wasn’t in the slightest bit surprised that Jimmy died so young under such mysterious circumstances. This man claimed that his father was responsible for creating the voodoo rhythms that called on the spirits of the dead during voodoo rituals back in Jamaica and went further to state that he himself employed these very same rhythms in Jimmy’s songs. He further claimed that he could sense the spirits of the dead rising to inhabit the bodies of the audiences during these concerts. As an ex-musician, I can tell you that we in the church are utilising some of these very same rhythms during what are now called Youth Worship Services. When asked about this, Hendrix himself said that when he picked up his guitar he became “possessed”. ‘I don’t know who is playing, all I know is that it’s not me’. Many other musicians have also claimed that they become ‘possessed’ whilst playing their instruments, including Angus Young of ACDC, Robert Palmer and the lead singer of Talking Heads, to name but a few).
    The older believers in my town who are trying to make a stand against ‘the Youth of today changing the face of the Church’, as it is being positively described in current workshops and conferences, are being emotionally manipulated into believing that they alone with their ‘18th Century mindsets’ are responsible for the falling away from the churches of the West that has been underway since the mid 1950’s, and many of them seem to be buckling under the pressure coming from the pulpit.
    (Notice, if you will, that this falling away has absolutely nothing to do with people falling under the spirit of individualism, consumerist materialism, sex, drugs and rock n’ roll, feminism or the long standing effects of the Industrial Revolution – it is all the fault of those who continued to make a stand within the Church of which Christ is the head, running ‘the race’ as described by the Apostle Paul. Convenient that, isn’t it?)
    One such believer, a Mrs Botham of Chesterfield in England, was told during a recent service by a ‘Worship Group Leader’: “If you don’t like it, clear off home because I’m fed up of hearing you moan”, (these youngsters who are changing the face of the church even rhyme when their being rude and disrespectful, it seems). Understandably, Mrs Botham never attended that ‘church’ again.
    The upshot has been: Old Granny Music out, Rock, Grunge and Hip-hop Gospel in.
    Not long after the music seemed to become demonic the services themselves seemed to become demonic right along with it and such things as the ‘Toronto Blessing’ were born. This was believed to be another powerful ‘Movement of the Spirit’ that was going to bring revival and unite ‘churches’ and congregations’, instead it brought fourth chaotic divisions within long standing congregations and I suppose we are all still waiting for the worldwide revival that seems never to arrive.
    Along with the ‘Toronto Blessing’ a new word entered ‘Christian’ expression: ‘Catchers’. The ‘Catchers’ arrived to ‘catch’ ‘Born Again’ believers who had ‘Gone Down’ – another idiom to arrive – in the Spirit. The ‘Catcher’ or ‘Catchers’ are called upon to position themselves behind the ‘Born Again’ who is about to be ‘Slain in the Spirit’, to have some -which brings us to our next catchy phrase: ‘Carpet Time’, this describes the length of time a person who has ‘Gone Down’ in the ‘power of the Spirit’ spends on the carpet. What is interesting here is that any time genuine Born Again believers or an Old Testament prophet fall before the Lord in the Bible they always, every single time, go down forward, face first. The only people to fall down in the manner being described here are those who are not believers having demons manifesting, prior to having them driven out or the temple guards and Roman soldiers who came for Jesus in the Garden. The Born Again cannot be ‘possessed’ in their spirits, not according to the Bible they can’t, they can have their bodies or souls, (minds) ‘oppressed’, but never ‘possessed’, two entirely different Greek words are used for these experiences.
    The specific blueprint for the Temple given to the Israelites in the Old Testament, being a ‘shadow’ of things to come, was given for a reason: There was the ‘Outer Court’ where non-Jews and women could go, there was also the ‘Inner Court’ were one had to be a circumcised Jew, a Pharisee, a Sadducee, etc, then there was ‘The Holy of Holies’ where only the High Priest could go. When Jesus, our eternal High Priest, declared in John 2:19: ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up’, He was talking about His body, of which the Old Testament Temple was but a foreshadow. The Apostle Paul frequently describes this ‘temple’ that Jesus is referring to as being made up of ‘flesh – body – which could also be used to describe Man’s fallen nature’, ‘mind – soul’ and ‘spirit’: highlighting the ‘Outer Court’, the ‘Inner Court’ and ‘The Holy of Holies’. The Born Again, or Born from Above, believer’s spirit, in both the individual and corporate sense, belongs exclusively to God, God effectively makes it His ‘Holy of Holies’ as His Holy Spirit resides there. This cannot be touched by demons or evil spirits, not even by Satan himself. When a person is ‘possessed’ by demons it means the demons are in the person’s spirit, and since the Born Again believer’s spirit is now housing God’s Holy Spirit, then possession cannot be. A believer can still be ‘oppressed’ by demons and evil spirits, their mind attacked, their body made ill, etc, but a Born Again believer cannot, according to the Bible, be ‘possessed’. Only those who have not been ‘Born from Above’ can be ‘possessed’ and are in need of exorcism. Since this is a Biblical Truth, how is it then that so many Hyper-Pentecostals, (who claim to have been ‘Born Again), are being ‘delivered’, (which is another new catch-phrase littering the ‘church’ these days, meaning ‘exorcised’), week in and week out? According to the written Word of God this simply cannot be!
    Now during the ‘Carpet Time’ a new slogan was born, ‘Holy Laughter’, which describes when a ‘believer’ has fits of uncontrollable hysterics, sometimes for hours at a time, usually disrupting the preaching from God’s Holy Scriptures, there was also ‘Lion Roars’ when the person having himself some sorely needed ‘Carpet Time’ roared like ‘the lion of the Tribe of Judah’, (personally, I think it has more to do with that other lion described in the Bible, you know, the one that prowls around looking for souls to devour). People then started removing the first two rows of chairs in case the people ‘Going Down’ for some hilarious ‘Carpet Time’ ended up missing the carpet and had themselves some ‘Back of the chair- Time’ and did themselves an injury.
    (Incidentally, this has actually been known to happen from time to time and during a well documented incident when an old lady, Ella Peppard, during an infamous Benny Hinn tour, ‘Went Down’, someone else ‘Went Down’ right on top of her and she died due to later complications. This famous Ministry settled the matter in a hushed up mode out of courts, paying an undisclosed settlement to the lady’s family. Another American ‘evangelist’ and ‘healer’, Morris Cerullo, – who told a congregation that when they looked at him they were looking at God, during a mission in London in 1992, ‘healed’ Audrey Reynolds of an ankle injury. Audrey felt so well that she stopped taking all her medication, including medication to control her epilepsy, and six days later she had a fit and drowned in her bathtub. Sir Montague Levine, – a practicing Jew – honestly, it doesn’t get any better here, does it? – the Southwark Coroner concluded: ‘It is a tragedy that she went to this meeting and thought she had been cured of everything. Sadly it led to her death.’ And of course there is the story told in the Yorkshire News about an AOG woman, who after spending some months going to a Toronto Blessing backed church in Sunderland, went home and murdered her toddler, stabbing the child more than seventy times after she had received ‘the blessing’. One cannot help but ask if these poor unfortunate ladies were all ‘Slain’ by the ‘power of the Spirit’ and ‘blessed by God’ then how could these tragedies, as well as the myriad others documented throughout the world, have happened at all? And what are believers such as this really saying about the attributes and intents of our Heavenly Father?)
    Not long after this the term ‘Prayer Warriors’ was birthed, these are people who sit in services groaning aloud and twitching as they ‘travail in the Spirit’, supposedly battling dark powers and principalities, which soon gave way to the phrase, being ‘Birthed in the Spirit’ to emphasis that the Lord was now doing a ‘New Thing’. There is, of course, the now famous incident where a well-known Pastor stood behind another, lesser-known Pastor on stage with his hands trembling between the younger man’s legs to catch the spiritual baby that the Holy Spirit was birthing amid the cheers of the congregation, (he, at the time, was most probably screaming his left lung out onto the floor for some spiritual epidural).
    Unfortunately during this disgraceful period of the ‘church’s’ history unless you had clucked like a chicken, roared like a lion, laughed like a hyena, or rolled about on the floor like someone suffering from some form of extreme mental illness you were not having a good worship service and there was obviously something wrong with your practices and doctrines because God was not visiting your congregation in a ‘powerful move of the Spirit’. What went by unnoticed during this sad time of ‘Church’ history was the crucified life of faith, as taught in the Bible, was being systemically replaced by a faith based primarily on some sort of supernatural experience or ‘high’, or what Jesus referred to as: Signs and wonders sought by an adulterous generation.
    The next phrase to come along was the ‘Mission Statement’ or ‘Vision Statement’ when each individual ‘church’ had to come up with it’s own ‘statement’ and when the members of other ‘churches’ eagerly enquired, “What is your Mission Statement?’ Some of the older church members seemed a bit bemused by all this shenanigans as they, old fools the undoubtedly are, were under the impression that all ‘churches’ shared the same ‘Mission Statement’, namely the Great Commission as described in the Word of God.
    The ‘New Thing’ locomotion really began hurtling down the tracks like a cannonball through the rain with ‘Christian’ terminology coming into being with such phrases as the ‘Unchurched’ and ‘Seekers’ replacing Biblical phrases the likes of ‘Sinners’, ‘Lost’, and the ‘Unsaved’. This was followed by the fad called the ‘Alpha Course’ with it’s no negatives and salvation without repentance emphasis, followed closely, at a break-neck speed, by ‘churches’ seeking secular ‘Marketing Strategies’, where the ‘church’ went all out to learn from the business world in order to adopt it’s marketing techniques and principles so as to finally begin operating effectively. We were all suddenly surrounded by full time ‘Youth Workers’ and ‘Church Administrators’ on the payroll, all doing jobs which many of the old timers had done for many years without pay as a ‘ministry onto the Lord’. The ‘Youth Workers’ were quickly sent on retreats to help them to ‘Define their Targets’ and to ‘Adopt new strategies’ to help them reach their ‘Targets’, in order to aid them to connect with the ‘Unchurched’ in their ‘Target Areas’, which introduced the next catchy phrase: ‘Spiritual Mapping’. A church member was asked to investigate the history of their community to see if there were any records of Satanism or witchcraft, usually coming up with some evidence, no matter how obscure. Then the mighty ‘Prayer Warrior’ teams were introduced in order to combat and bind satanic influences over their towns amid much groaning and twitching in line with spiritual gurus the likes of C. Peter Wagner and his principles of spiritual warfare. It is claimed by various theologians that many of these ‘Spiritual Mapping’ ideas were taken directly from a paperback; a novel by Frank Peretti called ‘Piercing the Present Darkness’. Peretti himself received numerous speaking engagements due to this work of fiction and was treated as if he was an authority on the subject all across the globe as a direct result of the huge sales of his novel.
    (Personally speaking, I myself, prior to being saved, wrote two Serial Killer novels, but please, if you ever have a sudden outbreak of serial killing in your town, don’t call on me as an expert investigator, not if you want the killings to be stopped and the murderer caught).
    Meanwhile, as the mighty ‘Prayer Warrior’ teams were all caught up with groaning and twitching those left idol in the congregation were shown the ‘Transformations Video’ in order to support the twitchers in this New Realm of Spiritual Warfare, which the Bible, and previous church historians, remained eerily silent about.
    The big guns were finally rolled out with John Wimber’s ‘Power Evangelism’ and his dubious teachings on the ‘Five Fold Ministry’, giving birth to a ‘New Breed of Christian’, consisting of not merely apostles, but ‘Super Apostles’, men and women who would be at the forefront of this aggressive march of the ‘church’ in it’s mission to take dominion over the current world darkness. (Incidentally, human beings taking dominion over the current world darkness is much like trying to save the environment, pointless; it’s like repainting the boiler rooms of the Titanic, we already hit that iceberg back in the Garden of Eden and all we can really do now is direct people to the life boats, i.e. repentance of sin through Jesus Christ before the old heavens and the old earth pass away). Some of these ‘Super Apostles’ then quickly joined the ‘Promise Keepers’, a band of spiritual superheros who would gather regularly together and promise never to criticise each other, those who did were not seen as being Biblically discerning, but were labelled ‘Heresy Hunters’.
    The next step in this dreadful progression was that the ‘church’ had to become more acceptable to the world and their ‘Unchurched’ communities, with an emphasis on a ‘Social Gospel’ that would be more ‘User Friendly’ in order to be more attractive to ‘Seekers’. Teams were organised to conduct surveys of their localities to find out why the ‘Unchurched’ didn’t attend ‘church’, (it couldn’t possibly be that they wilfully hated God or that the ‘church’ had become so like them that they couldn’t possibly see the point of joining them, now, could it?), and then organise to give them what they wanted in worship services, i.e. be more ‘Seeker Sensitive’ and ‘Seeker Friendly’, meeting ‘felt needs’. (If you really want to know why ‘Unchurched’ people don’t accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour it is as simple as reading the beginning chapters of John’s Gospel, i.e. Light – Jesus – has come into the world, but unrepentant sinners would rather stay in the darkness, least their evil deeds be exposed, oh yeah, they also love this darkness they want to say within). This has given rise to a brand new phrase: ‘Friendship Evangelism’, where friendships with ‘Unchurched’ people are sought by discovering common interests outside of ‘church’ with the intention of gently manipulating the ‘Unchurched’ into the fold. (Recently I attended a meeting to watch a video concerning a young woman from my community who has been evangelising in Africa. Part of her program consisted of preaching abstinence from sex outside of marriage, which is great and Biblical, however, included in this was a component that suggested that if abstinence was not possible then condoms would be readily supplied, which really boils down to what Jesus states in Matthew 12:26, as a kingdom divided against itself that will eventually lie in ruins. How can I possibly become spiritually empowered to abstain from sex outside of marriage with a half dozen condoms in my back pocket? How can I preach peace with a handgun strapped to my hip? Surely having the condoms is going to make it more difficult for me to overcome a sexual temptation when it inevitably arrives and all hope is lost to preach peace if I am strutting about with an M-60 machine gun cocked and ready to ‘rock ‘n’ roll? When we Christians approach evangelism in this manner we are really preaching a social Gospel, not a Biblical one. A social Gospel may well temporarily stop a train full of Jews on its way to the ovens to give them a meal to quench their starvation, a Biblical gospel, on the other hand, will derail the train altogether and send it back Home into the loving arms of our heavenly Father! During the presentation one of the African ladies involved with helping this young lady, – who is a friend of mine by the way, and in whom I have a great deal of respect -, stated that this evangelist was different than others she had experienced as this one did not “Bible bash” the people of her community. Can you imagine the people of Jesus’ day saying, “Wow! This Rabbi is so much more different and cooler than all the others we’ve experienced so far because He doesn’t “Torah bash” us? He just gives us food and pays close personal attention to our various other social needs. Can you imagine Jesus sending the woman caught in adultery or the woman at the well away with a six-pack of condoms, not caring one way or the other about their eternal destiny? This evangelist also during this presentation, although having a Christian boyfriend whom she intends to marry, openly stated that she had seen a young African man with such a muscular body that she felt like going down to where he was just to have a “good old perve” on him. How Biblical is that? Now despite her many sacrifices and the obvious compassion she houses for people suffering from HIV and Aids, is this how a genuine Christian woman is supposed to behave? Isn’t this what Jesus referred to as being adulterous by lusting for another in our hearts? And please hear me here, this is someone I consider a friend, in whom I have a great deal of respect, I am not trying to disparage her in any way, simply looking at the representation she is epitomizing concerning the person and teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. She seems not to realise that she is all caught up in social rather than Biblical Gospel preaching and teaching. Incidentally when she mentioned the “perving” aspect, almost everyone at the meeting laughed, mostly the women, which was such a sorrowful sight to experience. None it seemed appeared to realise that this was not something to laugh about, but to be mourned over, and perhaps take the young lady aside and lovingly point this error out to her that she may be corrected in order to examine and repent of it. The social side of her ministry is, however, going well and is a wonderful thing in and of itself; her compassion for the suffering of others is so plain and beautiful that her concern for the health of these people is certainly heartfelt).
    I remember someone once saying something along the lines of: “If you build your church on worldly principles all you’ll end up with is a worldly church”.
    And guess what?
    He was right on the money.
    The Greek definition of church, (ecclesia), means an assembly of those who are called out of the world, not a fellowship of those called together with those whose world it is!
    All this clucking like chickens and roaring like lions and ‘Going Down’ in a fit of ‘Holy Laughter’ for some riotous ‘Carpet Time’ to become a mighty ‘Prayer Warrior’ in order to ‘Bind the Darkness’ so as to be more ‘Seeker Friendly’ is enough to leave you groaning and twitching until you ‘Lay an Egg for Jesus’ because, hey! Didn’t you know; The Lord is hatching a ‘New Thing’?

  96. Only nine problems to correct in Charismania and the Charismatic? It is a step in the right direction…a good start!

  97. Zululander May 2nd 2013

    Men didn’t build a tower & call it church as someone earlier said.
    God called people out & He called it church. It’s His Church.
    All you spirituals that are led by the Holy Spirit to leave His church because you are so much more spiritual, then tried to start house church & other groups & failed as someone said earlier, so much for being led by the Holy Spirit.
    I’m in agreement with you all regarding the shameful activities in the church but remember YOU WERE PART OF IT.
    You now leave, accuse & slander it in a holy huddle & want to be salt where it’s salty & light where its light. How nice & comfortable. Did God lead you to a church in the first place? Did He make a mistake doing so? WHere did you learn some of the things they’re doing in church are wrong, in Church, or in the Bible. Who taught you to read the Bible….in church.
    If the “institutional” church of the lord Jesus stopped doing all the good it’s doing in the world, within a month MILLIONS of people will starve & die of sicknesses you don’t even want to think about, and mostly kids & mums. Just where I am, go round any hill in the rural areas & you’ll find some group from a chuch somewhere in the world doing WONDERFUL work amongst the people. Giving their lives for it
    DON’T DARE TRASH THE CHURCH just because it does some incredibly foolish & even harmful things to it’s self. That’s precisely the reason CHrist died for us….our sin. When my kids did that I helped & loved them, I didn’t criticize & curse them.
    Other than trash the church what are you doing? How many lives you don’t know are you helping? How much of your life have you given up for others.
    Some of you…not all… sound so spiritual you must walk 6″ above the ground.
    This is what God says about His church.
    1Ti_3:15 But if I should delay, that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
    Don’t give me this nonsense about belonging to the invisible church. The church is very visible. Or this pie in the sky of belonging to a church that has no pastors, teachers, evangelists & all the things that God says makes up his church. like it or not, God established it & like us it has sin & all the difficulties of a disparate bunch of people coming together trying to do what they perceive to be right….accusing & excusing each other.
    The only time to laugh is when you laugh at yourself as I posted earlier. it’s healthy, shows a lack of pride & healthy self esteem. God is our father, he understands our sincere foulups but doesn’t countenance judgemental attitudes.
    Now go look in the mirror, have a good laugh at your mistakes & ask god to help you remove the plank in your eye because you love your erring brother so much you would like to see clearer to help him.
    How rightly James spoke of the tongue.
    Selfrighteousness is not one of the fruits of the spirit you are all led by so unerringly.

  98. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    there are two Churches,
    The true church that the Lord built, being His body,
    And the false church of religion that man built for his own selfish purposes.
    These two churches are intermingled, as the parable of the wheat and tares.
    So far as laughter goes, not all laughter is of God. If you only think laughing is what is important, then there is a show called the Blue Collar Comedy Tour. You can laugh all you want at their ungodly humor.
    I still say we should not go against what the Bible clearly says just for a laugh.
    There is plenty of righteous things we may have a good laugh about without defying the Word of God.
    As far as speaking against the religious unrighteousness that we see, read what Jesus said often to the Pharisees
    As far as leaving the church in which we experience unholy stuff happening,

    2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

  99. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013

    AM, re: :The ones who would not agree and are being duped, would probably not enter into debate on this website anyway.”

    `It’s good that people are sharing here. I see that many of us have had bad experiences. We must see and react to evil, but when we allow our anger and bitterness toward evil to control us, we unknowingly become what we hate. May we all guard our hearts, taking-up the weapons of warfare powerful and mighty, The Mind of Christ in all things. Praying for those having been caught in satan’s crafty designs lest we fall to his wiles in other areas.

    Father God,
    We come before you in greatfulness and humility at this time. Please cleanse us from all uncleanness and iniquity, guard our hearts from the deceptions of the enemy of men. For he is the enemy of us all. You have overpowered him in all things, may we know your victory in our lives as we fully surrender ourselves to your Authority; stepping aside from satan’s irebellion and nfluence over us. May your Word in power and truth, free those caught-up in deceptions as we love and pray for their release. Free us from all bitterness, fear and covetousness that we will be strong to advocate on behalf of others in need. Continually grow us in Christlikeness. May we find our delight in you alone, for you alone are worthy of all glory, worship and praise. Thankyou Father. ~ Amen

  100. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013

    I think you have some very good points in your post. My post in response, was in reference to me and my spouse as we had to deal with significant bitterness when we left this setting. As I read what others have seen, I find myself facing the bitterness giant anew. Satan is SO subtle! You are very correct. Those ” being duped” probably would not be engaged in these discussions. You have encouraged many with your insight. Thankyou for your transparency. God bless you, AM 🙂

  101. If the root is bad, so will the branches be also. In the first century church, if you were not a recognized born again believer, you were not allowed entrance into church meetings that included the eucharist service. You had to be known to exibit a change in heart that comes from true conversion, and you exhibited a hunger for more of GOD in your life.
    So where did “evangelism” take place? Wherever two or more gathered. In the fields, in the market place, at the city gate, in homes, NOT SYNAGOGUES.
    “But Paul and the apostles preached in synagogues”. Yes they did. And their message was evangelistic because there were orthodox jews and gentiles there that needed to hear of the MESSIAH.
    So how did we get to where we are today? Well, that’s a lot of church history to cover. But basically, it was this. In the ACTS of the apostles, others of great anointing were added to their group and the church. When they spoke, the SPIRIT of the LORD would move. To facilitate larger numbers of listeners, they began to look for venues to accomodate the larger groups.
    Combine this with religious orthodoxy that eventually evolved into catholicism, and you have the root of what is called ‘church’ today.
    Remember, Martin Luther died a catholic. Reforming the catholic church was never a solution GOD could recognize. The church must be restored back to it’s original living organism. Saints meet to remember the Body and blood of YESHUA. These same saints, who were truly converted and left self and sin at the CROSS, that the SAVIOR could live in them before man, were recognized for their christlike behavior and their good works before men. In other words, their love for GOD and one another was quite obvious.
    Yes they had teaching meetings, on the 7th day of the week. Yes they gathered to hear the scriptures read before them alloud. But you won’t find any of the things brother Grady wrote about, recorded about their meetings.
    Chrasmatics have abonded the CROSS, and our communion with Christ there. So have the Pentecostals and most all protestant (protesting catholics) groups.
    To restore the church we must return to the place where it was most vibrant. Where one anointed man would testify, and thousands added to the church. Until that happens, you can be sure of this. No matter how “mega” your church may be, HE is not in your midst. The sad thing is, most don’t even suspect that HE is missing. Selah – Lahry

  102. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013

    ” Our joy has nothing to do with our circumstances but everything to do with our surrender ” … This Is My Desire ! YES !

  103. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    Sorry – dont mean to be disrespectful but Im still laughing!
    Ill probably get myself rebuked soundly for this but I really dont see most of these “bad behaviors” as all that destructive myself.
    Is the Holy Spirit really that easily offended by this stuff?Many people on this site seem to have the religious view of God that He is standing over the balistrades of heaven shouting, “Are you having a good time? CUT IT OUT!!!”
    What REALLY grieves Holy Spirit more? People who act stupid in church, pople (like me) who laugh at them OR people who condemn, chastise, reject get their religious nose out of joint over stupid in the church?

    Perhaps we should legislate just etching out the following list of rules on some stone tablets and place them on the altars of our churches:
    1. Thou shalt not push, slap or kick.
    2. Thou shalt not couresy fall.
    3. Thou shalt not repeat choruses more than 36 times.
    4. Thou shalt not wave flags or other sharp objects
    5. Thou shalt not dance unless you can really dance.
    6. Thou shalt not spend more than 5 minutes taking the offering.
    7. Thou shalt end make fals epromises about sermon endings.
    8. Thou shalt not play music loud enough to disturb the dead.
    9. Thou shalt not look stupid to those who are visiting.

  104. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    ps- Im still laughing! Sorry Lord for “grieving and quenching you” by that!

  105. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    since you invited this response, I will not disappoint you.
    I have no problem with laughing. It is good medicine, as the Word says. It lifts the spirit of man.
    It is the attitude behind it that matters. God looks at the heart.
    You said,–ps- Im still laughing! Sorry Lord for “grieving and quenching you” by that!–

    Do you even realize your attitude in saying this?
    You are saying to God, “if I am grieving you and quenching your Spirit, well too bad, I’m going to laugh anyway”

    Dangerous attitude in my opinion.

  106. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    Zoolander- Amen! Amen ! Amen Brother!
    How many hospitals were started by the “non institutional” church?
    How many schools to teach the illieterate were started by ‘house’ churches?
    How many millions of hungry people are fed by “internet” churches?
    How many counselling centres for addicts, homeless, prostitutes were started by the “invisible” anti-institutional churches?
    Jesus was right –
    “wisdom is still proven right by her chirldren”!!!

  107. Zululander May 2nd 2013

    Well said Barry & ill laugh with you & still love them & believe in the Church that the Lord called out and is busy using in the world to great effect….in spite of us all.

    Donald, both your replies to my posts have nothing to do with what I said regarding laughter. Read….then reply….it helps.
    There is only one church

  108. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    DonaldN- Perhaps you didnt realize I was speaking with tongue in cheek when I said that to the Lord. Please tell me you REALLY dont believe God is ACTUALLY grieved and quenched by my lauging over stupid religious behaviors in the church????

  109. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    Barry said–Sin can be repented of but stupid is forever.
    Not true for the sake of a laugh.

    Zululander said– …..I can be soooo stubborn.

    1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

    Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    Which of these scriptures offended you not most?

  110. Lightning Storm May 2nd 2013

    Is DISCERNING and JUDGING the same words in the Greek and Hebrew?

    Why did the writers of Acts choose to use the word “DRUNK” instead of “joyful” “happy” “with SMILEY FACES”?

    What!?! LEVITATING and seeing SPIRITS/GHOSTS did not make the list? (oh that’s right….THOSE ARE in the NT specifically)

    Perhaps, a closer look at WHO were the CONTROL FREAKS in the scriptures would be time well spent.
    WHO wanted to control the people? Jesus?
    Jesus was LOOSING people and telling His disciples to QUIT trying to CONTROL the people, the situation, and even Him.

  111. DonaldN May 2nd 2013

    Excuse me for being so adamant about the Word of God.
    I have come to the place where if God points out something in His Word that I am not in line with, regardless of how insignificant it may seem, I choose to repent quickly. I have had to do so many times myself. To refuse to do so is rebellion. It is a sign of a hardened heart.
    I still choose the Word of God.

  112. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    Betty- Loved your words! Preach it Sister! You wouldnt happen to be related to Len Ravenhill would you? You remind me of him.

  113. Zululander May 2nd 2013

    Donald, EVERY scripture & statement ever said is in a context.

    I can be sooooo stubborn….context…. not falling over when prayed for. In fact im stubborn about many things, I hope you are!!

    None of them offend me Donald.

    I don’t recall saying or anyone else saying they do anything for the sake of a laugh

    Lets leave it there

  114. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    Sorry my above post was meant for Anthony Donaghey- Good word bro!

  115. Zululander May 2nd 2013

    To suggest scriptures offend one Donald is just being cocky. It doesn’t enhance any intelligent debate

  116. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    DonaldN- ” jesting” (Eph 5:4 KJV) is NOT saying ‘thou shalt not laugh over stupid things that people do in church” as you have imagined.

    Greek (EUTRAPELLIA) – the word refers to course, morally offensive and vulger joking. This word was usually used to decsribe “dirty jokes” and the like.

  117. Zululander May 2nd 2013

    This is what God says we should do

    And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will (2 Timothy 2: 24–26).

  118. Praise the Lord HHHLGA, He is with you and will fulfil all His purposes for your life, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  119. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    DonaldN – We are sufficiently rebuked now thanks. Don’t know how we would have ever known that if you hadn’t pointed it out.

  120. Hi Donald,

    Forgetting the article and all of the comments above do you believe that the Lord has a sense of humour (remembering that we’re created in His image)?

    Love in the Lord,


  121. Jacquelyn May 2nd 2013

    It’s so important to understand that just because something MANIFESTS in your body or around you doesnt mean it’s God. DEMONS make many things MANIFEST. Our churchs are filled with HYPE, EMOTIONALISM and DEMON ACTIVITY. I acquired MORE DEMONS and MORE BONDAGE in my years of being in Charismatic churches than I ever did in a regular Protestant church. I’ve spent years trying to get free from it all. God led me to cast out a SPIRIT OF CONFUSION and that was the big one that set me free to read the Bible for myself and have it come unbelievably ALIVE in me. Much of the New Testament talks about False Prophets and Heresies in the body of Christ. I just finished ACT and it was amazing.

    We should be pursuing FRUITS of the SPIRIT not manifestations. God’s Spirit flowed WHEN THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED. How often are we hearing preachers claim they believe in the gospel and Scripture yet NEVER open their Bibles and teach about the gospel or properly lead anyone to Christ?.

    The LOUD MUSIC is coming from their desire to CONTROL people and the loudness is to DROWNED OUT the VOICE of the HOLY SPIRIT in YOUR HEART so you cant discern their manipulation.

    STOP FOLLOWING IT, STOP GOING TO THESE CHURCHES and STOP GIVING THESE MINISTRIES MONEY….hit them where it hurts, in the POCKET BOOKL. But also pray for God to get rid of the WOLVES in sheeps clothing and purge the heresies and false prophets from the body as well.

    I get more from God staying at home reading my Bible than any church or ministry. You have no idea how God can bless you if you just sit down and READ your BIBLE. We are living in a day and time where our “assembling together” has changed. It’s not in a church building anymore. I am unbelievably grateful for the friends I have that I can fellowship with and much of it is done over the phone or by writing. We encourage each other with everything God is teaching us individually. Jesus never belonged to a church building. When he or Paul/disciples spoke to believers it was generally those in a region or city…not a building or denomination or sect of people. I am ALL for proper seminary training where one learns Scripture and Greek and Hebrew…but get out of school and put it to use PROPERLY to feed Gods sheep.

    Are you aware the last time I enquired about this that in the state of Florida someone can go to the city, county and state and OBTAIN a REVEREND’s LICENSE for a couple of hundred dollars. They don’t have to have any education at all. Not even a high school diploma !! Greek and Hebrew study is so helpful. I use my concordance all the time.

    Live WISELY…and pursue God yourself. Your not brain- dead…read FOR YOURSELF !! God bless…JH

  122. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 2nd 2013

    Barry, Re: Sorry – dont mean to be disrespectful but Im still laughing!
    Ill probably get myself rebuked soundly for this but I really dont see most of these “bad behaviors” as all that destructive myself.
    Is the Holy Spirit really that easily offended by this stuff?

    — Our youth group put their ‘evidence of God’s fellowship’ ‘proof of newlife’ in possessing many of these manifestations, because they knew it would please parents, peers, leaders if they did so. These manifestations became “the bar’ of spirit filled excellence outwardly. Exhibiting these, were self assurances of the very highest of the HS’s unction/anointing/filling…They never sought a higher ground. for they believed themselves ‘arrived spiritually and highly favored of God’. The proof being in the pudding! When the normal trials of life came, many of them you were totally unprepared to find guidance and strength in the sure foundation – God’s Word. The consequences were profound for most.

    re: “Is the Holy Spirit really that easily offended by this stuff?”

    – if a dependence on pleasing other’s expectations via outward evidences of the HS’s favor; tends to minimizes their dependence upon the sure foundation of the HS and the Living Word within, then the HS may well have cause to not be pleased at all. Not to say he is ‘offended’ but perhaps grieved and quenched. Something may be innocently laughable, but the long term fruit may not be laughable at all. I like what one wise man said about this topic.

    The true prophetic word [or manifestations’ directing] of God will build and strengthen us to stand against the storms
    [or trials/temptations] of life. Counterfeit or soulish prophetic teaching or prophesying builds lives also, but it builds them on an unsure foundation.

    ~ John Bevere, excerpt from Thus Saith The Lord, a comparing of true and false prophetic manifestations.

    I think many here are looking down the road, at the long term results and find it hard to laugh, although laughable it may certainly be. It may be more sobering than funny to some.

    Barry, Thanks for your valuable insights here as well. You are such an important part of the Body. We are all so favored of God, to learn from others.. God bless you dear brother 🙂

  123. DonaldN- Perhaps you didnt realize I was speaking with tongue in cheek when I said that to the Lord. Please tell me you REALLY dont believe God is ACTUALLY grieved and quenched by my lauging over stupid religious behaviors in the church????

    Barry, you must see………….
    WHY would GOD laugh, or would JESUS have laughed
    at MEN barking like dogs, and walking each other round on leashes, ladies howling and talks of money mongering.
    NO WAY would JESUS laugh………….
    THEY UNDER a dark spirit……………….WHY on earth
    would anyone laugh at a man under the wrong spirit?
    those men are in danger, and what part of TRUE LOVE
    would laugh at men in danger, when lest they repent and come out, the end is death.
    GOD dont desire any to perish………….
    why would we laugh at those in danger of perishing…………
    THESE are very SERIOUS and concerning matters.
    A man being walked on a leash and barking like a dog
    so why on earth would i laugh at a man under
    another spirit, one which is of the flesh of man.
    WHEN lest they come out and repent, the end of them is death.
    AND this is the black and white way we should see it.
    ALL not of CHRIST are in danger of hellfire.
    Barry……………….my advice is not to come back and aruge
    just simply pray and consider. amen.

  124. Someone above posted a very good post.
    They spoke of paul going into synagouges etc
    and how catholicism was birthed etc……….
    YES if we read in acts paul continuously went into
    JEWISH synagouges to WIN them and greeks etc
    to CHRIST. but from all my reading the believers met in streets
    and in houses.
    MONEY was spent for the poor, those who lacked.
    it wasnt ever meant for the church to spend that massive amount of buildings of million dollar natures.
    WHY………………..because that money could have been given to those who truly lacked.
    As far as a cheap building , i couldnt object to much to that.
    I mean we all sleep in houses to keep weather off us
    so why nit pick a cheap place to meet to keep weather off us.
    BUT a costly building………….NO
    THE money could go to the poor. OUR HEARTS should be for their care. and many are starving to death
    while many well off, complain if the church buidling istoo hot or cold.
    NOT judging ………………just saying.
    we have life quite easy……………..so our abundance should be
    FOR THE POOR, not to build up our self, our church buidlings.
    We have , and this is sad, we have ministirs meeting
    to improve ENTERTAINMENT, and devices TO KEEP people
    and youth occupied and interested,
    all the while the money could have went to the poor.
    NOT to mention that if entertainment is what keeps the people
    GOD is our all in all………………
    SO much has went array. and things must be burnt out of us all.
    WE GOTTA be all about the others welfare above our own.
    comforts and pleasures, and cares in life……….CHOKE the word.
    LEARN to BE CONTENT………….LIVE plain
    and SERVE GOD, and DO all for the others welfare.
    SO simple, PREACH the gosple
    be about the GOSPLE towards men.
    And transgress NOT.
    SIMPLE message. amen.
    LOVE the LORD thy GOD thy GOD with ALL
    mean all, and at all times , good or bad.
    LOVE thy neighbor as thyself
    mean AS THYSELF………….not ME FIRST, then them.
    pards…………….simple message, simple walk.
    YET the most abandoned part I have ever seen.
    YET only TWO commandments. THE problem aint
    in the weather, in aint in the stars, it aint
    the problem is in the FLESH.
    FIRST LOVE……………..

  125. And now a word of PRAISE unto the LORD.
    O LORD how we rejoice daily in thee
    and through all times.
    FOR our heart is on thee and thy salvation
    thy salvation is our JOY and
    how we rejoice that in your mercies
    we have been transalted out of darkness
    and into LIGHT
    and by your Grace o GOD, do we see and
    walk as we ought, to keep us from straying
    O LORD………….when remembering
    HOW in your mercies, one as wicked as i, derseving
    the worst of damanations, yet in your mercies
    have been pulled out and given GREAT HOPE
    is ALL THE REASON one needs TO REJOICE daily.
    BLESSED BE THE LORD……………and HOLY is HIS name.
    MY GOD has freed me from the bonds of being a slave to sin
    and awoken me unto rightteouness by HIS GRACE in CHRIST.
    A GIFT……………….that should be HONORED and REMEMBERED and REJOICED in DAILEY.
    FOR all have fallen short and done wickeness
    and were it NOT for HIS GRACE there i would still be
    there would i fall back too.
    NOW………………this O LORD is all the REASON I NEED
    to REJOICE through the worst of times ,through all times.

  126. BY Grace i see……………..tis a free will choice to CONTINUE in GRACE, as well……………
    to OBEY thy GRACE O GOD Daily
    which is to my benefit.
    CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall hear and obey daily
    , serving from the heart.
    AS FOR ME………………………….GOD is mY HOPE
    and the KEEPER of my soul.
    In the JOY of my LORD is my strength found
    in praises………………There HE is………….
    HIS salvation is my joy………….
    and all the reason I need to rejoice.
    through all times. amen.

  127. FOR no matter what comes against me…………..
    no harship, no affliction, no trial, no not even death
    can seperate me FROM GOD………..
    and i know that all these things…………………
    only work for good to those who LOVE HIM.
    And my peace ensues………..
    not a thought of the morrow, not a worry ,
    not a thought for the material……….
    JUST a trust in THEE o LORD.
    BLESSED be the name of the LORD my GOD
    for there is none like unto thee O LORD.
    MY strongtower, my ROCk, and my salvation.
    MY righteouness is OF THEE
    and in CHRIST am i made righteouness.
    THIS GIFT is worthy of all praise and all times
    no matter what comes agaisnt me in this life,
    FOR i know that even in the loss of all things
    even persecutions unto death
    TO HAVE THIS HOPE of THY salvation will sustain me and REJIOCE my heart through all times.

  128. Roger (NZ) May 2nd 2013

    Randall my friend, be blessed in your stand for, and with, Christ Jesus our risen Lord 🙂

    Thankyou for your sharing of praise and prayer this morning..

  129. Barry Schmidt May 2nd 2013

    I think I am being misunderstand- I believe false manifestations and demonic counterfiet experiences ARE NO LAUGHING MATTER!

    But i DO NOT in any way consider the stupid and idiotic behaviors mentioned by Grady in this article are IN ANY WAY MANIFESTATIONS of either the Holy Spirit or of counterfiet religious spirits.
    Loud music, long sermons, endless repetitions of choruses, pushing people , cheap dancing , courtesy falls ARE NOT MANIFESTATIONS OF ANY SPIRIT!
    They are manifestations of stupidity and idiosity!
    This alone deserves a good laugh.

    Please don’t put words in my mouth that I am not saying.

  130. Lynley May 2nd 2013

    How true this article is. More, more. One of the things that gets me down is those who blame satan for all their mistakes- how arrogant that they should believe they are important enough to warrant his personal attention. And the people that ‘ghost’ hunt, not the Holy Ghost but go searching for spiritual ‘infestations’ without looking first that what could be causing it is the flesh. Overspiritualising all these things is, I believe, tantamount to heresy. Our Jesus was a gentle, simple soul – why do we have to complicate things. Thank you Lord for just loving us, saving us, showering your mercy and grace upon us, opening our eyes.

  131. They are manifestations of stupidity and idiosity!
    This alone deserves a good laugh

    Oh……………no Barry………………..for though these are manifestations of the FLESH………..
    a man who lives after the flesh shall die.
    GO barry……………..and lie in prayer and pray for these lost souls.
    WEEP for them. and pray for them to come out of any FLESH
    movments and actions, which are not of GOD, but of men.
    PRAY barry. there is no reason for laughter………..
    there is only a need for SERIOUS prayer for these men.
    PRAY barry, pray for them. But laugh not.
    barry, you aint being attacked, at least not by me.
    ALL i am doing is imparting a more perfect knowlege in this matter.
    TO help you see, only a need to pray for these souls.

  132. MUSIC for GOD is good.
    MUSIC TO ENTERAIN and KEEP attendance is wrong.
    LEarn the difference .
    Then ask……………WHERE is the TRUE DOCTRINE in these meetings. what is the agenda.
    TO GLORIFY GOD………………or to add to or take from HIS WORD. GOD needs not our inventions or additons, or carnal reasonings on HOW TO IMPROVE HIM, HIS WORD.
    then the choice will be made. EITHER to hear and keep
    or to refuse.
    BUT man can add nothing to what GOD alone can DO.
    i speak in matters concerning the approach to HOW church is being ran and orcherstarted. THE SIMPLICTY of GODS HOLY WORD and instruction in righteous living is all that is needed.
    THEN GOD also gives prophecies through HIS SPIRIT,
    unto men for the edifying of the peoples.
    All mans reasonsings, his wisdoms, his sciences, his physcologies, his ways of thought, are not only nOT needed
    there HARM the flock and posion the pure water.
    and we must come back to just GOOD wholesome doctrine.
    BIBLE, and not mens carnal degrees, wisdoms, etc.,

  133. Averyl May 2nd 2013

    Of course God has a sense of humour.

    Let us also fear God and not blaspheme His Spirit by attributing to Him that which of the soul.

  134. Hi Averyl,

    Again forgetting the article and all the comments above – but getting to the spirit behind – I would share some scriptures with you…

    Now it was told King David, saying, “The LORD has blessed the house of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, on account of the ark of God.” David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the city of David with gladness. And so it was, that when the bearers of the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling. And David was dancing before the LORD with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouting and the sound of the trumpet. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. So they brought in the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. When David had finished offering the burnt offering and the peace offering, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. Further, he distributed to all the people, to all the multitude of Israel, both to men and women, a cake of bread and one of dates and one of raisins to each one. Then all the people departed each to his house. But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, “How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants’ maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!” So David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the LORD. “I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.” Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.
    (2 Samuel 6:12-23 NASB)

    I would like to ask you a question Averyl…

    If you had have been Michal what would your response have been to watching your husband doing what David did?

    Love in the Lord,


  135. Lightning Storm May 2nd 2013

    You could fill a book with all the “strange” things that God asked His people to do or say!

    If people saw them today, they would call them ” OF THE DEVIL”!

    Throw a stick down and have it turn into a snake; a person who calls themselves a prophet running around naked for 3 years; how about building a very strange thing called an ARK and filling it up with dirty filthy animals; levitating; throwing your body on top of a dead person; looking for a coin in the mouth of a fish; going to the top of a mountain and talking with spirits/ghosts; or how about the dead rising from their graves and walking around the town?

    I am so glad that God delivered me from ANXIETY, WORRY, AND FEAR. It gives me more time in life to ENJOY THE COMFORT OF A SOVEREIGN GOD WHO IS ALL POWERFUL AND HAS ALREADY DEFEATED THE DEVIL.

  136. Richard Savage May 2nd 2013

    Lynley: ‘Our Jesus was a gentle, simple soul – why do we have to complicate things.’

    I’m sure I’ll get shouted down for this one, but Jesus of Nazareth was far from simple. Yet He was a gentle soul who was provoked quite easily in the face of hypocrisy. Some of the time He was plain angry at the authorities, some of His stinging rebukes have stood the test of time, and today could be applied to many church leaders.

    I’m sorry, the gentle Jesus meek and mild of the hymn is rather an apocryphal rendering, a reading back to suit western times and minds held prisoner within a western church system. It gives us a role model far from the Biblical truth.

    But you are quite correct, but in another sense. Why do we complicate things? I don’t know, perhaps a straight forward gospel of Jesus is too simple for us. We need it to be interpreted like a TV soap opera, perhaps?

  137. Averyl May 2nd 2013

    Andrew J, – in response to your question, I guess I would be embarrassed!
    But we’re not justifying weird behaviour that emanates from another spirit, are we?

  138. No Averyl, we’re not – which is why the Holy Spirit gives us discernment… 🙂

  139. Again, not talking about this article but just making a general comment, it is so easy when we see the Holy Spirit doing something which is not culturally acceptable (to our culture or experience) to despise the people that He is doing those things through in our hearts (I’ve been guilty of it myself and been rebuked by the Lord for this before – this comes under the fear of man)… 🙂

  140. Sidah May 2nd 2013

    Great Lee, it’s good to get these things out in the open. I agree that there is a lot of ‘man’ in the things you are talking about. How much do we want God? I would love to see people on their faces or knees crying out to Him. I’ve had enough of religion, I just want Him. But a reminder that Jesus loves His bride and is faithfully outworking His purposes where?? in His church. Let’s get on board with Him and pray for His holy presence that cuts through religion. 🙂

  141. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    I could be way out on this question- . But is our modern church culture so acustomed to wierdsville ( all the strange abnormal and abherant behavior) that we actually have rote answers for people who are shocked or who are offended by wierds ville? I notice how the standard rote answer is , ‘Well the Holy Spirit does made people in the Bible do some wierd things.”

    In any other generation of the church (including in the midst of the revival meetings of Johnathon Edwards, Finney and the Wesleys) when people saw or heard ANYTHING that was wierd or out of the ordinary they NEVER DEFENDED IT. Rather they shut it down, rebuked those engaed in it and briskly deposited such people out onto the street!

    These men of God erred on the side of caution for certain. But in doing this did they EVER ONCE GRIEVE, QUENCH OR SHUT THE HOLY SPIRIT’S ACTIVITY OUT OF THEIR MEETINGS OR SERVICES???

    May God give us men who are willing to say, “Cut that out!” in our so called Holy Ghost meetings!

    In the other ditch is those who have never known the winsome personality of the Spirit of Jesus. Who imagine the Spirit of Jesus to be some kind of sour and dour kill joy. i remember a meeting I was leading where God was healing, saving, transforming those in attendance in powerful ways. The joy was palpable- not that religious sour puss joy that counterfiets for the the real deal either. . The absolute winsome, friendly, loving family like atmospehere that only Jesus can produce.
    Their is nothing attractive to sinners about wierdsville but what is even less attractive to sinners is that bogus religious piety that countefiets for genuine godliness.

    May God

  142. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    May God give us all a healthy dose of reality. May he fill us with child like wonder, laughter and the athentic winsomeness of the Holy Spirit.

  143. Their is nothing attractive to sinners about wierdsville but what is even less attractive to sinners is that bogus religious piety that countefiets for genuine godliness.

    Amen Barry… 🙂

  144. The absolute winsome, friendly, loving family like atmospehere that only Jesus can produce.

    We’ve been experiencing that atmosphere in our local congregation recently Barry so I know what you’re talking about… 🙂

    I used to experience it when I was a teenager in the local congregation I grew up in – the Holy Spirit was there, people were coming to the Lord – then there was a doctrinal division and the local congregation split – the enemy doesn’t like it when good things are happening – we must continue to “fan the flame” in prayer when things start going well to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”…

    Love in the Lord,


    Ps. I like your other post also… 🙂

    May God give us all a healthy dose of reality. May he fill us with child like wonder, laughter and the athentic winsomeness of the Holy Spirit.

  145. One does not need to boast about a so called “gift of discerning spirits” when all that we need is something that seems rare now days, even amongst Christians, plain old common sense!
    God can do anything He desires but will He go beyond his word?
    A centuries old religeous organization has crashed off the rails, because they placed (and so do, to this day) Word of mouth, theatrical lying signs and wonders, lavish props, sets, robes, smoke, “holy water” statues, paintings, buildings, and men above the Word of God! Blasphemy!?
    “I am come in my Fathers name and you reject me If one comes in his own name him you will receive”
    John in the Spirit on the Lords day, penned it as the “mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth” The cup is indeed golden but the contents are deadly poison!
    “He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.”
    God has a sense of humour , He also laughs for another reason!
    Pr Michael

  146. GaryB May 3rd 2013


    Thanks for your imput on those books by Bevere.

    This is the first time I have had to set down and go through the comments. Our server was down for a period of time.

    Lord Bless,

  147. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    Barry and Zululander–
    I have been at work today. I have been pondering the whole conversation and God has convicted me to say forgive me for taking your comments out of context or any other misunderstanding.

  148. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Michael, “I am come in my Fathers name and you reject me If one comes in his own name him you will receive”

    Wow! Yeah !

  149. Hi Michael,

    For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation. (Psalm 149:4 NASB)

    “The LORD your God is in your midst, A victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. (Zephaniah 3:17 NASB)

    Beautiful scriptures… 🙂

    How often do we rejoice over our brothers and sisters with singing?

    Food for thought…

  150. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    A J Horton–
    Yes I do believe God has a sense of humor. A simple search for laugh and laughter will show a few scriptures concerning this.
    Prov 17:22 A merry heart does good, like medicine,
    Luke 6:21…Blessed are you who weep now: for you shall laugh.
    Ps 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    I believe Jesus enjoyed laughing.

    Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    The above scripture is used often to make Jesus into a sad person his whole walk on earth, but I believe it is referring to his final days when He fulfilled His purpose in taking our sins on Himself.

  151. I agree with you Donald, I believe that Jesus was the happiest man who ever lived as the Joy of the Lord was His Strength… 🙂

  152. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    A testimony–
    A few weeks after we were married, my wife went to a women’s conference for 3 days. One of the days there were some women in a group, praying for each other. The leader went around the group praying individually for the women. When she came to my wife (Linda) they held hands and before anyone could speak they began to laugh. It continued for a while until they were both on the floor, still laughing and still holding hands. After it ended, Linda felt a great relief. She was healed from a mentally and physically abusive relation of her past.
    Since then she can minister to other women with abuse problems. Many of them have told her, “there is no way you were abused, your too joyful and happy.”

    She has never laughed like that again. She in no way tries to use laughter as a tool to get other women healed. It was the work of the Holy Spirit at that time for her.

  153. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    I believe many of the “manifestations” happening in churches now were originally a work of the Holy Spirit. The problem is when man tries to capitalize on the physical action thinking there is some “magic” in it that accomplishes a work in someone, or making a doctrine that says, This is how the Holy Spirit works.

  154. Hi Andrew J. tx. , I have no argument with anyone on that!
    The Joy of the Lord is our strength!
    I can tell of many hundreds of testimonies of folk who realized their healing. – just rejoicing during the singing!

    Isaiah 53 10-12 a great one ,subtle in reference to joy:_,
    “…Yet it “pleased” the LORD to bruise him; …….the “pleasure of the LORD shall prosper” in his hand.
    He shall see of the travail of his soul, “and shall be satisfied”: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”
    We say we can’t when we can.
    We say won’t when we must.
    We think Impossible when all things are possible to those that rely on, trust in, and obey Him.
    It’s complicated when it is simple.
    Then we wonder why we often fall short..
    We often pontificate about words (maybe like me sitting here and typing) when we should be out and about with His Word
    I sometimes think of a certain roman soldier when he said “….Speak the Word only….”
    He saw the Living Word before him recognized the authority. and called on Him to whom it belonged.
    The word came, lived, walked, amongst us, died for us, rose again for us, this same Word now dwells within us by His Spirit. Yet often we still do not connect! We fail to see and comprehend that -The Word is spoken! Enlivening and powerful – “It is finished” said He..Jesus is the testator of His own will, seated at the right hand of the Father our advocate to see His will for us, heirswith Him, is faithfully executed.
    2000 years before the event God spoke and said “the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” – it is done! Past tense! Still we agonize on our knees crying to be given what is completed and given

    The living Word of god dwells within and we fail all too often to grasp what the Roman saw!
    God told Moses to speak to the rock and instead he struck it!
    I believe as we are God’s people we need to be taught/encouraged/reminded to speak His word in our lives.
    Is this how Paul kept his his body under? partly because of the “exousia” and “dunamis” now dwelling within him? Under the authority if the Living Word.
    Pr Michael

  155. Correction
    App. 700 years before the event Isaiah 53
    Pr Michael

  156. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    Donald- thank you for your kind words. You are an honor to The Lord and to His people. May He richly bless you in every way for your faithful, humble and obedient heart.

  157. Praise the Lord for your wife’s testimony Donald… 🙂

  158. My question Michael was how often do we rejoice over our fellow brothers and sisters with singing (enjoying their deliverance with them “rejoice with those who rejoice”) – I believe it is liberating to do so… 🙂

  159. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    Thanks for that Donald.
    Barry you will be interested in Andrew Murrays experience of the revival in SA. He tried to stop some of the weird things in the meetings & everyone ignored him, night after night. So loud they couldn’t hear him shouting at them to quiet & sit down. Afterward he admitted his mistake admitted it was the hOLY sPIRIT. there have been strange manifestations in the revivals. I wonder why the folk at the first preaching in Act said they were drunk? Was it their speech or actions?
    Lets be careful here. What is order to our western culture is not necessarily so with God.
    Barry I may have missed it but I have been a keen follower of the revivals & don’t recall them doing what you say regarding strange behaviour although nearly, if not all mention strange things. I don’t include loud crying in repentance here wich was in ALL revivals…..that would be a strange manifestation in our churches wouldn’t it 🙂
    Friends we mustn’t throw the baby out with the water.
    The devil copies & messes the truth & what is genuine, like tongues & worship etc…..strange happenings….spit & mud healing eyes!!!
    Discernment is A key but remember even VERY gifted men made mistakes ike Andrew Murray for example.
    I’m not going along with the present circus at all in any way, but the only real way to see is to see the fruit afterwards which is the way Andrew Murray did it.
    I read all the revivals because it is my daily earnest prayer for revival in the area I live & am interested what took place before & after, they are good examples for us for what God did. No, we cant copy them but there are similarities that are interesting.
    The devil has again won when we now ridicule EVERYTHING as not God & the fact is…..we don’t know.
    If real revival comes to your church like Andrew Murray, we will chuck everyone out with our present mind-sets.
    For goodness sake, why laugh till you land on the floor when someone has a debilitating mental & physical problem???
    Thanks for that Donald.
    It appears the devil has stolen something (again) that God definitely used at times past. That isn’t funny.

    For unity:
    Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called,
    Eph 4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love,
    Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    And exactly what Barry said….much prayer. Remember folks, you can’t pray for someone you don’t love & curse with your speech.
    They are our dear brothers, which doesn’t mean we can’t point out fault, its our motive i’m talking about.
    Be Blessed
    Be Blessed

  160. Lightning Storm May 3rd 2013

    AMEN. Pr Michael….Excellent comment

  161. Andrew j. Amen
    Rejoice evermore!!
    Here is a picture and story of joy unspeakable and full of glory!


    As a direct result of Esinatis’ testimony over 1000 folk in this village were baptized and Spirit filled, the only “problem” was enough water! Who cares when the Lord blesses? Since that first miracle i believe numbers in tghe area have doubled .
    Bless you.all
    Pr Michael

  162. Steve May 3rd 2013

    I think that article missed the 2 most worrying dangerous errors:
    We cant put God in a box but Ive come to believe that being DRUNK in the SPIRIT is (almost always) of another spirit. Thats why they get the same effects by snorting imaginary cocain off bibles or smoking the baby Jesus joints at John Crowder and the New Mystics meetings, where they “get high on the Most High.” No one in scripture ever experienced drunkeness when they were annointed in the Holy Spirit. Its not scriptural. The bible teaches against getting drunk and behaving like that so why would God contradict this and cause His saints to waste time rolling around on the floor displaying exactly the same manifestations? It never produces any fruit. The Toronto crowd have been doing this week on week since 1994 and look what its done to them, corparate insanity and still no revivival or souls saved.
    Praying or singing to the Holy Spirit, again this is not in scripture. Its a dangerous spiritistic practice that almost always opens one or a group to another spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but we are to approach and address God as the Father or the Son. We dont address one another as spirits, it would seen insulting and wrong to do so, thats because it is wrong even tho we have spirits. Its also wrong to adress God in this way for the same reasons.

  163. haven May 3rd 2013

    With all of the pastors and the church into the occult it is not surprising things go wrong all the time.

  164. Marilyn Crow May 3rd 2013

    Jacquelyn, Good advise `read for yourself,` the Bible &

    Richard Savage, `we must come back to just good wholesome doctrine.`

    We all know that God said through Paul,

    `Be on your guard….after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; & from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.` (Acts 20: 28 – 30)

    These people we know will be with us till we are taken to glory. My concern is that we don`t realise the `Trojan Horse,` in our midst. And this I am referring to as the misinterpretation of scripture.

    How often have we heard a speaker open God`s word in the Old Testament & immediately relate it to us. And yes there are examples for us of behaviour. However the primary purpose of scripture is to show Christ. He told His disciples this.(Luke 24: 44)

    Yet how often do each of us look to any Old Testament scripture in relation to Christ? (I`m sure there are some.) There seems to be an automatic default position called `me,` & `my life & my troubles,` whereas God always says

    `Look to My Son, Hear ye Him & what I (God) am saying about Him, enlarge your understanding of Him, meditate on Him.` (says God)

    Yet how often have we heard, it`s all about us, our identity in Him, our dreams, our ministry…..etc. That is at best a misinterpretation & at worst trying to bring Christ down to our level.

    So why would God have us `Look to Christ,` & meditate on His character & His purposes? Because as always, looking to the answer, Christ, changes us, whereas looking to the problem just frustrates, angers etc…..

    How do we read God`s word? His way,Christ first or – our way,Me first. Let`s not be tricked. Marilyn.

  165. Praise the Lord for Esinatis’ testimony Michael – I rejoice for her and for those in her village who were saved – Praise You Jesus – the Joy is real and in heaven… 🙂

  166. Yea Andrew J. i am sure there are others like this that we never hear of. (Romans 11 4)
    PTL there are good pastors and groups that are spot on for the Lord,.quietly working in their own corners of the vineyard,. too busy to be concerned with the cares of this world.
    Pr Michael

  167. Romans 11:4 is a really good verse Michael…

    There’s a girl called Holly in our local congregation who has a severe skin disease and some of the ends of her fingers missing…

    The Lord has showed me her fingers restored and the fingernails also…

    I’ve shared this with her and her mother and the lady who leads prayer in our fellowship and we (the mother, the lady who leads prayer and I) have agreed in prayer that she will be healed…

    The mother had a word from the Lord to this end when she (the daughter was quite young) she is now seventeen…

    I really feel that the Lord will heal her on Sunday (at our fellowship) – I might be wrong and I won’t take any guilty if it doesn’t happen then – but could you or any who feel led pray for Holly to be healed – the Lord has put this on me as a burden and I must get this – cos He told me to promise her that I’d pray and believe until she was healed – so I’d appreciate support… 🙂

    Others in our fellowship now have her (Holly) on their hearts also the lady who leads prayer at our fellowship has told me so the Lord’s up to something… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  168. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    Zulu lander- a good word thanks!
    I am curious about one thing though-
    What “strange things” would you say are happenning in today’s charismatic meetings today – that would fall under the category of what wa taking place in South Africa that Andrew Murray was mistake ingle shutting down?

    Are any these same “strange things” happenning in our modern charismatic meetings?

    Would to God that some GENUINE “strange things” would actually happen.
    I have beeb attending charismatic meetings for more than 35 yeara now and The truth is that 99.9% of the “strange things” ARE NOT GOD!

    The truth is THEIR IS NO BABY IN THE BATH WATER! Throw it all out and you will lose NOTHING OF HOLY SPIRIT!

    Where is the gospel of grace preached in today’s meetings?
    Where is the cross ?
    Where are the tears?
    Where is the the true joy if the Holy Spirit?


  169. Andrew J. We shall.
    Pr Michael

  170. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    There is an idea becoming more prevalent in some settings. I believe it’s origin is taken from the OT account of (Elijah’s Double Portion To Elisha). Is the ‘impartation’ of a spirit or a
    ‘specific spiritual gifting’ possible from one person to another? God allowed this OT account of the Spirit being “forwarded or transferred” to another.

    Elisha’s Double Portion

    2 Kings 2: 9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”

    Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

    10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.”
    11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
    12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.
    13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan.
    14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, “Where is the Lord God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over.
    15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.”

    Can a NT Believing pass their spiritual gifting on to another by impartation?

    ic. – laying on hands to the passing of the gift of prophecy or evangelist to another. Or ‘imparting’ the gifts of 1Cor.12 from one to another. Isn’t it God who gives to each Member according to His own- “dividing to every man severally as he will.” 1 Cor 12:11 b

    Does God work in this way as well, allowing men to decide? We have only witnessed this in one setting firsthand, though we have seen it on some revival stages. Anyone who has knowledge here, please share your indight. Thankyou.

    1 Cor. 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

  171. Andrew J hope you find this encouraging:-

    “The New Testament word for “Saved” is the Greek word “Sozo” and it literally means “To Save, Heal and Deliver.” When you combine Sozo with Sōtēria, which is the Greek word for Salvation you get the complete meaning. Simply putting these words together you are able to get the whole picture. To be “Saved” means to be saved, healed, delivered, preserved, protected, to make prosperous and to make whole. The word “whole” means to restore, or that nothing is missing and nothing is broken.”
    Pr Michael

  172. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Andre, I couldn’t help notice the encouraging word to you from
    Pr Michael. This song came to mind. May you both find it a blessing. All these hard places, where His Grace is, nothing is unredeemed in value to the working of good, to His Glory. I too, am praying for Holly. GB!


  173. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    Sorry Barry, I find nothing in the present church.
    You’re right, all what you said…..unfortunately. But heres to hoping.

  174. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Unreedmed lyrics

    We live in the shadow of the fall
    But the cross says these are all
    Places where grace is soon to be so amazing
    It may be unfulfilled
    It may be unrestored
    But when anything that’s shattered is laid before the Lord
    Just watch and see
    It will not be unredeemed

  175. watchful May 3rd 2013

    Good question Barry—- where is the HOLY Spirit departing TO, now that Ichabod is being written upon the doors? And unfortunately we need to also ask what spirit(s) are they playing around with then?

    I was there at Toronto and watched in anguish as the presence of God left and another spirit must have come in because nobody skipped a beat. Thinking about it still brings tears to my eyes. His presence didn’t make you drunk exactly, but a little light-headed at times and like wading through thick oil, and while there, His glory was palpable and wonderful, there was joy and freedom from religious formalism….but it seems that His Spirit exposed our hearts, because freedom became replaced with something almost like a sense of obligation to “manifest”, and starvation for the word set in, because “manifestations” and “renewal” became the idol that was worshiped, an idolatrous commotion that drowned out the still small voice and gentle Spirit of God. When “soaking” came in and “soaking kits” were marketed, I guess to offset revenue from the receding crowds, that seemed to seal the error.

    Yes, throw it all out and begin anew, that is very good advice. The only thing we will get to keep anyway is what is really of God.

  176. watchful May 3rd 2013

    Thanks for sharing those lyrics HolyLGA, it ministered to me.

    Those who are asking for a double portion know not what they ask, because it seems to me that the double portion of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) is reserved for those who pay double for their sins. The things of God don’t come as cheap as they think.

  177. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Watchful, re: “…because it seems to me that the double portion of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) is reserved for those who pay double for their sins.”
    Hmmm ! -Good point indeed! Your last remark ran me to my notes from this mornings Bible study programs from radio. I jotted one down which minds me much of what God had laid on your heart today as well.

    There are no victories at discount prices. – (General Dwight Eisenhower)

    God Bless!

  178. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    HolyHolyHoly- Love that handle by the way!
    re: Impartation of gifts via laying on of hands
    Id say stuff is imparted alright -but what?
    ” Lay hands on no man too quickly and do not share in the sins of others.”

    We also receive spiritual impartations through hanging out with and embracing teachings and doctrines- good or bad: Paul was challenging the Corinthian church about this very thing. The entire purpose of the book of II Corinthians is after this theme of recieving false apostles. He was rebuking them for embracing and recieving false apostles and in the very middle of his arguments why he said these remarkable statements:
    “be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?…Where fore come out from among them and be separate saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you….Therefore since we have these promises LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL FILTHINESS OF THE FLESH AND SPIRIT>’ (Caps mine)
    Notice how Paul links bodily and spiritual defilement with hanging out with and listening to false teachers and teachers!!!

    Spiritual infections are passed along IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY viral infections are passed along- Through HANDS AND THROUGH COMMUNION AND THROUGH THE “MOUTH” (words)!
    But the question remains: Are gifts imparted by laying on of hands.
    I think that while the Scriptures do mention the recieving of gifts by laying on of hands ( see I Tim. 4:14) Gods modus operendi (his usual and normal way) is by direct releases of grace FROM WITHIN
    The only reasons MOST of these modern charismatics want to “impart” is to make themselves look good, important, in control and to get a following for their own financial gain, their own little kingdom.

    also in the Bible when leaders laid hands on to impart gifts it was NEVER A STRANGER AND THEY WERE NEVER A STRANGER TO THE SHEEP. It was ALWAYS IN THE CONTEXT OF long term loving and accountable relationships with people WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE LOCAL CHURCH>

  179. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    You’re so right Micheal. There are LOTS of incredible thing some churches are doing.
    What is pure religion undefiled. Were only talking of one aspect of church that’s a mess & everyone want to leave.
    Do a liitle search on the good works were called to do & challenge YOURSELF on what God calls His Church to.
    I know this threads subject is the well laid out problems listed above, but when we leave churches & castigate them & call them all sorts of evil names & compare them with how correct we are, then we need to look across the broad activities of the church as a whole. Barry very laid out how ineffective individuals are in being of value to the helpless. Almost all good done by the church in the world is from a local church base. I know of no lone warrior having an impact in society. I don’t say there aren’t any.
    Church is a wonderful place to grow in all the fruit, patience, discernment love & the list goes on. I & the Lord Jesus recommend it to every Christian.
    If God leads you out of a church it will be for specific reasons & things He is doing in YOUR life & your leaving will be without rancour, hate, hurt, bitterness & division.
    I fear for some of you. Curse the church with such bitter words will not bring the Lords blessing in your life.
    Lets disagree with some of their actions but do not attack & make statements about them & their relationship with God or call the church names.
    As much as what God looks upon our hearts, so is He looking on their hearts & the fact remains…God knows them who are His. Not us.
    Sorry I always sound so blunt but when diplomacy was handed out I missed the queue:(. I wish I could present myself a well as some of you folk. But im not very short on love, I love the church, sometimes I can just hug it & other times I want to bash it against the wall, but it’s all in Gods plan to teach me His ways….even when they, by action, teach me what not to do

  180. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    re: More on modern charismatic impartation of gifts etc.

    This modern travelling road show religion ( dubbed as “conferences”)whereby the consumers pay to come (the sheep are fleeced in exchange) for a hope of recieving ‘the annointing” of the “man of God” that will personally empower them so they never have to be dependant on anyone ever again (the very antithisis of biblical salvation).
    These “conferences” never preach the cross, never preach the message of grace 9 instead its a message of fast more, pray more and seek more), never call for repentance, never calls for self denial, and long term intimate loving and accountable relationships with the local church are NEVER emphasized . To these travelling roadshow conference junkies salvation is radically redefined from being a holy and loving dependant relationship with God and nieghbour to the new salvation which is “personal empowerment”!

    Just pay your money, sign up for ‘ministry” or walk forward and wait in line to recieve the purchased ‘annointing”. Pay more and recive a ‘better anointing”.
    This is modern consumerism at its best!
    But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH biblical discipleship!

  181. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Barry, Thanks for your very informative answer to my inquiry about impartations.

    — re: We also receive spiritual impartations through hanging out with and embracing teachings and doctrines-

    (Kinda a , bad morals corrupts good manners? make no friend with an angry man lest you learn his ways and get a snare [entrapment] unto your own soul? etc?) Any exposure to spirits via teachings, bad relationships, corrupts the good by it’s presence? Thanks, I will do more study on this.

    re: HolyHolyHoly- Love that handle by the way!

    – I like to change my username as a reminder to me of what God is teaching me in different areas. If He presses something deeply, my username may be changed as a small beacon reminder. A week ago, he was teaching me alot about the importance of us all being – OneBody with many functions to one purpose. .A username which serves to greater instill a learning mindset it I see it before me. When I see the username, it’s like him reminding me a direction not to set aside in the words I reflect. Silly, but most of us can identify posting friends by their writing styles, grammar, sentence structures, topics, even punctuation, spelling, etc. I like to focus on what people write apart from a name. I learn better this way. We are OneBody indeed.

    WHY, HOLYHOLYHOLY LordGodAlmighty? I heard some wonderful teaching on this repetition of Scripture a week ago. I wanted to keep the concept before me..So, my username. Why the SIGNIFICANT repetitions in Scripture.?

    Barnes’ Notes on the Bible –
    And one cried to another – Hebrew ‘This cried to this.’ That is, they cried to each other in alternate responses. One cried ‘holy;’ the second repeated it; then the third; and then they probably united in the grand chorus, ‘Full is all the earth of his glory.’ This was an ancient mode of singing or recitative among the Hebrews

    Geneva Study Bible –
    And one cried to another, and said, {h} Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole {i} earth is full of his glory.

    (h) This often repetition signifies that the angels cannot satisfy themselves in praising God, to teach us that in all our lives we should give ourselves to the continual praise of God.

    (i) His glory not only appears in the heavens but through all the world, and therefore all creatures are bound to praise him.

    Someone else on here, thought LGA was, love God always. That thrilled my very soul to consider another’s heart here. Barry, may He richly bless you. Thanks, again. 🙂

  182. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    amen Zululander!
    When will we return to Gods original intention for what salavtion is:
    salvation is relationship with God AND THE CHURCH!

    How can anyone read their Bible and not see this?
    how can anyone claim to be “saved” when they reject the CHURCH?
    ‘Saved’ means saved from rebellion against God AND MAN,
    “Saved” means saved from independent living!
    “Saved” means saved from being alienated from our fellow man IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CHURCH!
    “Saved” means saved from a lack of love towards God AND THE CHURCH!

    HOW CAN ANYONE CLAIM TO BE SAVED and not love the church and lay their lives down in loving relationships with the church??????

  183. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    Love (in this age) by definition requires negatives! (see I Cor 13)
    In other word unless someone is hurting you, making you wait, using you, ciricising you, putting you down, getting something you wanted but didnt get, is acting sinfully towards or around you- HOW CAN YOU HAVE LOVE???

    ‘Love is patient”- patient with what? Something you really hate!
    “love is not jealous- How can you not be jelous when you always get everything you wanted?
    “love does not brag” How can you “not brag” unless noone is noticing you?
    “love bear ears all things” If their is nothing TO BEAR then there can be no love!
    Now listen to this!!!
    The church ( the lukewarm, ignorantt, worldly, carnel, unfaithful, unbelieving, reprobate, consumeristic, idolotrous CHRUCH) IS GODS OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN TO LOVE!!!

    when we leave, reject and separate ourselves from God’s very imperfect church we are rejecting GODS ONLY MEANS OF SANCTIFICATION AND HOLINESS!
    because santification is love!
    Holiness is love!
    Salavtion is demonstarting LOVE and love (in this age) always involves hurtful, pian filled relationships!

  184. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    many christians tell me, “I have left the church because THEY HURT ME!’

    I always say, “What in Gods name did you expect? If you want to be Jesus disciple you are going to be hurt! No hurt no love! No love- no salvation!”

  185. Thank you Michael, I shall report accordingly… 🙂

    Thank you HHHLGA, Lovely song… 🙂

    Hi watchful, the miracle of the cross is not to hide ourselves from pain but to embrace it and allow the Lord to live through us showing us what we know we cannot do – love our enemies and do good to them that hate us, Love in the Lord, Andrew

  186. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    If I might, I would like to give you a description of the Church I came out of, and their practices.
    Then, would you please let me know what you would honestly do with this situation.

    The messages of this church in a nutshell, are primarily stating this—
    You are a child of God, a joint heir with Jesus, therefore you have access to all that God has to offer.
    All the blessings are yours, all the promises are for you.

    They do not make a distinction between those who are dedicated to God, or even saved at all. They might give an altar call at the end for those who want to accept Jesus as Lord, but they have very few throughout the year, because they already have been telling these people over and over that they are a child of God.
    They preach little, if at all, about salvation, its requirements or such.
    They mostly preach only promises and blessings.
    Most of the people in this congregation think they are saved.
    The lifestyles of many of these people outside the walls of the church are as worldly as an unsaved person.

    On the positive side, this church supports an orphanage in Chenai India.

    Do you believe the ‘good works’ of this church justify the fact that they are leading people into deception and many of them will possibly be the ones to hear Jesus say to them, “I never knew you.”

  187. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    No Donald, good works can make it an even worse deception.
    Can I give a short testimony?
    Saved 45 yrs mostly in leadership some as additional pastor. Moved town 3 time so moved church 3 times.
    Each time I joined a new church I KNEW it was where God wanted me, so there was NEVER a question to leave. I would have left if He said so but I would NEVER ask Him if I should leave (although I would have loved to at times). He put me there & He moves me without my agitating to do so. When one wants to move church & you start asking God, mostly you will hear what you want to hear.
    God works with you first & uses you secondarily. If He’s not using you, look to yourself, not to others
    I won’t repeat what Barry clearly said so lucidly above.
    When you don’t know what to do, go back to what He last told you & stick with that. Never is there cause for confusion.
    The above posts about “coming out from amongst them” is taken out of context, it doesn’t mean a church that is not perfect. I’ll rather quote the very first Psalm & verse to these folk…sitting in the seat of the scornful.
    Love them sincerely Donald, pray for them, countenance no criticism, support & be a part of the church without entering into the nonsense & the time will come God will use you if you have grown in Him to a point where He can use you. A mans ministry will make way for him.
    I speak like this a I am in the worst church I have ever been in. Terrible goings on. I love, support from my heart & the time will come the pastor will talk to me. Right now he knows my background & will have nothing to do with ma as I am a threat (in his mind) to him.
    Be careful not to become an Absalom & win members to yourself. Win them to CHrist & the Church. without genuine love of God for Him & Hs church this isn’t possible. Speak good of the pastor & ignore the bad. NO ONE is all bad.
    When Gods time comes my heart will be good & I will only say what he wants me to (hopefully) & nothing from my sometimes not so good emotions after the meetings :(. I want to be faithful to God, not to what I like or prefer.
    This is a big discussion Donald & an important one but space doesn’t allow a proper discussion.
    Leaving the church IS NOT THE ANSWER. WHere He want’s you is, & that you find out before attending the first time.

  188. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    In every circumstance of life, ask yourself “what is God doing in my life now”. I believe there is a redemptive purpose in everything that happens to one. …..all things work together for good…..called…according to HIS purpose. Not our preference & comfort.
    With that attitude I “dignify” my trials

  189. Richard Savage May 3rd 2013

    Leaving the church IS NOT THE ANSWER.

    Zululander, you’re wrong. It requires no discussion about leaving the church, just an obedience to Him who saved us. Nothing more.

  190. watchful May 3rd 2013

    HolyLGA – Isaiah 40:1 in case you would like a reference for that.

    Amen Marilyn to what you are saying about the scriptures being about Jesus and not about us. Very important thing you are saying, that’s the thing about these false gospels is that they all seem to be man-centred rather than Christ-centred. For a while there I also had a laundry list of things I expected and “believed” God was going to fix for me…….until something twigged and I learned that He didn’t exist to serve me, but rather I exist to serve Him.

    Yes, AJH, amen, so right brother. I think of Jesus hanging there in agony with nails in His hands and feet, public humiliation and slowly suffocating and bleeding to death, and still more concerned about others than about Himself……….Father forgive them………..John, take care of my mother………… On the contrary, it was for them that He suffered, it was for this purpose that He came…..may we be of the same mind, by His grace.

    Barry, am I misunderstanding something or are you contradicting yourself without meaning to..? Do not be yoked with them, come out from them…..what fellowship has light with darkness? And consider where its says to go to Him outside the camp. In light of these I’m just wondering what you mean by “relationship” with them? I had a big shock when I realized these passages were talking about professing believers and not the world! Love people by all means, as long as that doesn’t necessarily mean being yoked with them.

  191. watchful May 3rd 2013

    Amen Richard.

  192. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Zululander, re: In every circumstance of life, ask yourself “what is God doing in my life now”. I believe there is a redemptive purpose in everything that happens to one. …..all things work together for good…..called…according to HIS purpose. Not our preference & comfort.
    With that attitude I “dignify” my trials

    This is SO TRUE!
    Believing that He is in control, and working all things for good for those who love him, making them (through trials and testings), purified and like Jesus, the Firstborn of many Brethren.

    Ro. 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  193. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    Watchful, re: HolyLGA – Isaiah 40:1 in case you would like a reference for that.

    Yes! I love references for that..:D ..but, ya lost me somewhere. A reference for what? You got me! PLEASE explain. ;D lol

  194. Hi Richard & watchful,

    We’ve discussed this before but I feel to say a few more words…

    The Candlesticks – only the Lord knows when He has removed one…

    If He has removed one then what’s left is Ichabod “The Glory has Departed”…

    If He hasn’t removed a Candlestick and we call it Ichabod instead of interceding for it then we find ourselves fighting against God…

    This calls for discernment…

    A closeness to God to know the difference…

    This only comes in surrender to Him and to His will…

    No matter how painful that might be…

    Love in the Lord,


  195. Zululander May 3rd 2013

    Zululander, you’re wrong. It requires no discussion about leaving the church, just an obedience to Him who saved us. Nothing more.

    Richard, please read my comment carefully….all of it.
    For your convenience:

    Each time I joined a new church I KNEW it was where God wanted me, so there was NEVER a question to leave. I would have left if He said so but I would NEVER ask Him if I should leave (although I would have loved to at times). He put me there & He moves me without my agitating to do so

    I have never said one must not be obedient to God, that’s ridiculous
    10:00pm… im off to bed …. Be Blessed everyone

  196. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 3rd 2013

    AndrewLH, re:If He hasn’t removed a Candlestick and we call it Ichabod instead of interceding for it then we find ourselves fighting against God…

    I have found when I shamefully judge what I don’t fully understand, God humbles me. If I knew the full picture, I would weep and pray instead.
    Isn’t he merciful as he works in all our lives? Thanks for the spirit check.

  197. I have found when I shamefully judge what I don’t fully understand, God humbles me. If I knew the full picture, I would weep and pray instead.

    Amen HHHLGA… 🙂

  198. Averyl May 3rd 2013

    There is the Church, – the Body of Christ, His flock, His Bride.

    Then there are churches, – divisions, daughters of the “mother of harlots”, founded by man either on false doctrine or a particular aspect of doctrine.

    If Jesus came to our town or city and wanted to give a message to His Church, where would He go?

    Someone in a previous post asked where the Holy Spirit has gone to if He has left the churches.
    Perhaps He is leading His people into His Church.

  199. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    I understand your position and honor your dedication. But I am not quite in agreement with you.

    2 John 10-11
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    The way I see the Word telling us is that if we stay in a Church that is promoting false doctrines, then we are actually condoning what they preach, unless we are actively speaking against it, in which case we would probably be asked to leave.

    We must consider those impressionable souls around us who would think all these doctrines are acceptable, because no one is telling otherwise.

    Absalom drew a following for his own selfish goals.
    It is not a bad thing to draw people away from the false teachings and lead them to the truth.

    I have not found a scripture that tells us to remain with those promoting false doctrines.

  200. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    A few have said the we should only leave a church if God tells us to leave, and this requires discernment.
    I can’t help but have the impression that this implies most people do not have sufficient discernment.
    What if the discernment given most by God on this issue is to leave, and most who do leave actually are the ones with greater discernment.

    1 Tim 6:9-11
    9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
    10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.

    If a ministry is promoting greed and showing a straying from true faith, then we are to flee.

    (Zululander, I am not referring to you on this. I believe you are called to stay, but I don’t think it is the general will of God for most)

  201. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    When to leave a church? mmm its the $64 question isnt it?
    For me its always loving to people to obey the scriptures. Even if that means leaving a certain church. I do not see this in contradiction to the theolgy of loving the unlovely saints.

    Lets look at the context of “come out from them and be separate”
    (II Cor 6) That gives us the answer to the $64 question (maybe $64 is a Canadianism???)
    1. It was the ENTIRE CORINTHIAN CHURCH that Paul was commanding to “come out from among them”.
    So it wasnt merely one person or a small group of belivers Paul was addresing here.

    2. Who was it that Paul was telling the Corithian church to “come out from”?
    It was the Judiaizers! Those Jewish and Gentile converts to Judaism whi insisted that folk are saved by Christ but sanctified by self effort law keeping.This was the false apostles, This was the ministers of Satan whoi were masquerading as mimisters of Christ. This was those who were clearly prwaching “another gospel”, were offering “another Spirit” and “another Jesus”.

    (See II Cor 6, 710,11,12)
    so then when should we leave a church?
    When they present “another gospel, another Spirit and another Jesus”-
    1. I would leave any church that preaches “another gospel” -ta gospel that demands self effort works for salvation or sanctification rather than simple faith in Jesus blood and simple faith in Jesus indwelling spirit to save and sanctify.

    2. i would leave any church that offers “another spirit” -either by way of foundational to the faith false doctrines or throyugh practice (ie I would leave a church that is imparting a kundalini spirit)

    3. I would leave a church that is presenting”another Jesus” – One that isnt calling for a holy life. A jesus that isnt calling for repentance from dead works. A Jesus that isnt calling for the basic requirement of discipleship which is “deny yourself and take up your cross daily and follow Me”.

    Other than that I believe God is calling us to stay, lay down our lives in sacriificial love for very imperfect saints.

    O live live with the saints above!
    Wont that be glory!
    But o to live with the saints below!

  202. Roger (NZ) May 3rd 2013

    HHHLGA, said: “. AndrewLH, re:If He hasn’t removed a Candlestick and we call it Ichabod instead of interceding for it then we find ourselves fighting against God…

    I have found when I shamefully judge what I don’t fully understand, God humbles me. If I knew the full picture, I would weep and pray instead.
    Isn’t he merciful as he works in all our lives? Thanks for the spirit check.

    ..and Andrew JH, you quite rightly added your Amen to that.

    Are you able to take that revelation, and apply it to those who have been ‘called out’ of denominational meetings..? In respect that you may not understand the full picture of something that God Himself is doing..?

    Yes some leave because of hurts which is not the same as those others who are literally ‘drawn out’ by the Holy Spirit (as Averyl shared), called out from, and ‘into Him’.

    Richard made a comment earlier about each one of us being where Lord Jesus leads us and desires us to be – this is for His purpose and plan.

    I will praise and give all glory to God for taking some born-again believers into a ‘church’ situation, in the same way that I can praise God for those that He takes into a workplace environment to share, or into divers places around the world, amongst other peoples, where they are led to live among and share the truth of Lord Jesus.

    Each one of us, who is regenerated spiritually, who is born-again from above, a believer in, and follower of Lord Jesus – should be listening for, hearing and then obeying the direction and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

    Each one of us is unique in Him, has different callings, giftings, abilities – as distributed by the Holy Spirit – to be prepared by Him, so we may be used of Him.

    The letters in the N.T. that call for us to ‘come out from among’ are written to believers – so that we may not condone or accept those practises that are not of God, yet done in His name.

    In His love,

  203. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013


  204. Intercessor May 3rd 2013

    Dear DonaldN, Zululander & all,

    Speaking from the way the Holy Spirit has led me, He has always said, “You’re free to go, when you’re free to stay”.

    Thus begins a wrestle through to a place of unconditional surrender to God.

    And amazingly, as we wrestle through to be free to stay, we gain a heart for the ones whom we want to reject.

    The first part of the wrestle is choosing to forgive them for their failings… their pride, their gospel, their exclusitivity, their control, the way they run the worship, wanting money, being in idolatry, having conditional love based upon whether you go to their church or not, the competition, the shallowness of their conversation, their lack of reverance to God…. and on.

    He doesn’t want us leaving in rejection or rejecting anyone.

    If you truthfuly can leave in peace and joy, then you’re free to go…. otherwise no. Love is more important… no matter how much of an enemy someone is to us.

    If we choose this……. oh! It gives the Lord a place :,)

  205. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    bY “FOUNDATIONAL TO THE FAITH FALSE DOCTRINES” i DO NOT mean they have to lne up with m on every jot and title of Scripture. In that case we would all have to leave each other haha!

    No person has come to the full accurate knowledge of “the faith”. we just THINK we have arrived! lol We are all “growing up into Him who is the head- to a complete knowledeg of the “the faith”.
    I have seen SOOOO MANY believers who use doctrinal error AS A LAME EXCUSE to avoid embracing the hurt and pain carnel saints have inflicted upon them.
    God searches our hearts- just because we SAY we are leavign for DOCTRINAL ERROR REASONS – DOESNT MAKE IT SO!

    We can convince our new church that is why we left. We can convince ourselves that is why we left. But what does GOD say?

    4. Oh ya and there is ONE more reason to leave a church:
    _When the LORD of the Church is calling you to go and die somewhere else for a while!

  206. watchful May 3rd 2013

    HolyLGA – I was referring to the double anointing we were talking about:

    Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

    Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.

    If you have any other scriptures about that from the bible study you mentioned I’d be glad to see what they are if you don’t mind posting them. Elisha and Is. 40 are the only ones I know of up to now.

    Elijah and Elisha I believe speak of the end time……the catching away of the church…..etc…

  207. GaryB May 3rd 2013

    Roger (NZ)

    With all due respect brother I don’t think that scripture is referring to Christians in a church setting.

    It says:

    2 Corinthians 6:16-18

    16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

    “I will dwell in them
    And walk among them.
    I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people.”

    17 Therefore

    “Come out from among them
    And be separate, says the Lord.
    Do not touch what is unclean,
    And I will receive you.
    18 “I will be a Father to you,
    And you shall be My sons and daughters,
    Says the Lord Almighty.”

    I think this is referring to unbelievers, or people who are in the world who know not Christ. Were told to come out from among them.


  208. watchful May 3rd 2013

    Andrew J – I was speaking of Ichabod in general terms….these being the last days of the times of the gentiles. We need to discern the season, the falling away and all that implies, and the restrainer being taken out of the way. But if and when the Lord wants someone to leave a particular church, I’m sure He will lead them if they have ears to hear and a heart to discern. If anyone who truly follows Jesus attends a church that has received of another spirit, they likely wouldn’t be welcome there for very long anyhow.

    The book of Obadiah I think gives a good and clear picture of what our heart attitude should and shouldn’t be.

  209. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    A few have said that we should only join a church in the first place if God leads us there by His Spirit.
    There is a problem with this concept, in that we are not all spiritually mature enough to know that.
    It is easy to say that we should let the Holy Spirit lead us, but that is the ideal scenario and many are not mature enough yet to do that.
    I, for one, in my younger, less perfect spiritual times, joined a few churches for reasons other than praying and being led of the Spirit.
    At least two of them churches, I left because I was not being pastored properly. I was getting into fleshly activities and doing things I should not have done. The leadership ignored what I and the rest of the people were doing, because they were too busy building their “ministry” and seeking fame. I admit to my immaturity, but that is one of the problems with many churches I have noticed along the way. Not all “Pastors” are called by God to be a pastor.
    The Holy Spirit definitely led me out of these churches and put me places where I would learn His Will.

  210. Roger (NZ) May 3rd 2013

    GaryB – this is the struggle isn’t it..? 🙂

    We are to ‘come out from among’ those who worship idols – yet we are to be ‘in the world’ sharing with non-believers, and those who don’t know the gospel of Lord Jesus, that He is the Messiah of God, and that we are to have a personal relationship with Him.

    Do we stay in a ‘church’ setting, – which teaches falsely, and practises as described in the O.P. – because they call themselves Christian..?

    Or do we treat that setting as a group of unbelievers, amongst whom we can share His truth..? Share the real Jesus.

    I believe we are to fellowship, (worship, share, teach, prayer and praise) with genuine believers – those who personally know, and abide in, Lord Jesus.

    Then we are to go out amongst those who are still ‘of the world’ and share Christ Jesus our Lord, crucified, resurrected and alive today.

    I believe that many of those who practise the things spoken of in the O.P., do not know Jesus Christ, as Lord and God. They may have heard OF Him, but do not KNOW Him. If they truly knew Him, they would not need to pretend these things as described.

    So, yes – I agree with you that we are to come out from among those unbelievers who know not Lord Jesus – we are not to have spiritual fellowship with those – who do not know Him yet do things in His name…

    I ‘think’ we are seeing and saying the same thing..? Please correct me if I have misunderstood you..? 🙂

    In His love,

  211. Barry Schmidt May 3rd 2013

    When does Jesus threaten to pull His candlestick from a church?

    NOT for a lack of good deeds nor for tolerating evil nor for doctrinal error nor for tolerating false apostles nor for a failure to endure hardship and sufferring for Jesus.
    (Intersting how all the reason people on this site have said Jesus removes His candlestick Jesus Himself says, “Nope- not for any of these reasons”!

    “I know you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you have found them to be false; and you have perseverence and have endured for my Names sake.” (Rev. 2:2-3)
    When then does jesus threaten to remove a churches candelstick?

    ” you have left your first love.”!!!!! (2:4-5)

    SCARY THAT!!!!

  212. DonaldN May 3rd 2013

    Andrew Strom—

    Do you actually read all these posts?

  213. GaryB May 3rd 2013

    Roger (NZ),

    Not looking to correct you only discussing this issue.

    I realize there are religious groups that do not know the Lord. A number of denominations in America have no knowledge of salvation but are more of a religious social club.

    Again I can see if a church is preaching heresy or strange doctrines that one would need to remove themselves from that group.

    The thing is I still see is that some of these churches who are born again believers but have not been taught more then John 3:16, are still the Lord’s sheep.

    People who are obeying what light they have.

    To be honest Roger, I don’t have all the answers here, but I just think from some of the comments people are too quick to come down on every church.

    I just think there is a balance somewhere in all of this I guess is what I am saying. I don’t know attacking every single church just seems strange.


  214. I’ve had some experience in intercession by the grace of God and I am yet to be told by God, “Don’t pray for them anymore”…

    Yes, I know from scripture that can happen…

    But I’d say I’ve gone beyond that point a number of times now where the Lord just wouldn’t let me let it go…

    God loves His own so much that He will not let them go – should our attitude be any different?

    Is it ever really God’s will to remove a Candlestick?

    I say, only when our hearts are hard like in the case of divorce – if our hearts are not hard and God’s People remain in a local congregation (Candlestick) then I say God will always call someone to intercede – to humble themselves until there is a breakthrough – to come “underneath” and “pray through” until there is a breakthrough…

    Love in the Lord,


  215. GaryB May 4th 2013

    I agree I think its easier for most to just give up and throw in the towel.

    Its hard to put into words sometimes what we feel and know in our hearts. But doesn’t the Lord want mercy for all?


  216. Amen He does Gary, Amen He does… 🙂

  217. watchful May 4th 2013

    Hmm, all I can think is how hard-hearted those Israelites must have been to up and leave Egypt then. And Lot must have been just plain selfish to leave Sodom.

  218. Roger (NZ) May 4th 2013

    GaryB – bless you my friend and thankyou for discussing/sharing 🙂

    To sit together and share – as opposed to writing a minimal amount of words, would sort out any perceived differences very quickly..

    I agree that all who believe, and repent, are His sheep – even if ‘babes’, ‘lambs’, ‘newly born’. Jesus first came to save people not condemn – and we are to follow Him.

    There are ones like this both in and out of ‘churches’. It is when people infer guilt or condemnation on those who seek Jesus as Lord, but are not in a ‘church’, who are at fault.

    There is a difference between a Godly spiritual fellowship led by the Holy Spirit, and many ‘denominational churches’, where Jesus is knocking at the door to be let in.

    Having said that, I know there are many born-again believers who are in, or visit, these ‘churches’, who introduce others to the real Lord Jesus.

    GaryB – I don’t have all the answers either 🙁 one day we will all see clearly, and wonder at our previous blindness 🙂

    Over the years that we have been ‘out’, He has continued to disciple us, and introduced us to many others who are led by Him to walk the path that He directs, no matter where it leads, and yes we have met some who are ‘out’ because of misdirection, either spiritual, or of the flesh.

    There was a time when I asked God why we had been taken through a number of ‘churches’, and why we were not in one now. His reply was that He had desired to show us what He did NOT want us a part of. We can only obey Him, as He leads.

    Each time I am asked, and each time this topic is raised – I go back to Him and re-ask the question, check with Him as to why we are outside, and others in a ‘church’ fellowship.

    Each time, I receive the same answer – that His ‘church’ (Ekklesia, body of Christ) is worldwide, a spiritual fellowship not limited to any one building or denomination. I don’t share this for any others to ‘follow me’, only sharing my testimony that is founded on Christ Jesus my Lord and Saviour.

    I counsel all to check with Him, ask Him for His directions as to how He desires each one to live their life – abiding in Him. Because we are each unique creations, in Christ Jesus, only He knows the plans and purposes that He has for each individual.

    As you say Gary, people (born-again believers) are obeying what light they have..

    Thanks for sharing as you have 🙂


  219. Marilyn Crow May 4th 2013

    Joan W. – miss you & your God given wisdom. Hope all`s well.

    Watchful. So appreciate your insights & yes Obadiah (just went & read it again) as you said, `gives a clear picture of what our heart attitude should & shouldn`t be.`

    Roger & Gary B. I agree on the world wide Body of Christ -maturing `with the light they have.`

    Some thoughts –
    I find the terminology `leave the church,` strange, as how can one leave the Body of Christ? (unless turn away from the Holy Spirit)
    where Christ`s Holy Spirit has placed us, `set us,` together with one another.

    The `landscape,` as I see it, & I think many here would also agree, that we are `journeying,` through this world of woe, learning to listen to the Holy Spirit, receiving truth, & learning to discern. We are all at different stages to be an overcomer.

    But many are measuring the maturity of people by the fromat of a public meeting. That type of meeting where we sit in rows & hear a speaker etc has been the predominant format for centuries & has become encaputulated in some people`s thinking a the default position, `Church.`

    But it is just one sort of format that the Body of Christ can use to come together. Many organisations in the past have held a vice like grip on their format & called the other gatherings or groups `Para church.` Meaning just an add on, a help to the main format.

    But as we see Christ our Head is breaking through every man-made constriction & continues to build His people, maturing them. We need to see what He is doing & not let our mind-set blind us by a `us – them,` mentality, of those `in the church,` (a certain format) & our brothers & sisters gathering together in other ways.
    – house groups, forums, discussion & sharing gatherings, etc. etc.

    Christ will yet surpise us all with where He is leading His `called out ones,` the Body of Christ, locally relating everyday in every way & the world wide organism that we are all apart of.

    …`the eye cannot say to the hand…` but there are `varieties of..`
    formats. PLT. But they are just forming…Watch God`s space.


  220. Roger (NZ) May 4th 2013

    It is that misuse, or misunderstanding, of the word ‘church’ isn’t it..?

    Today, man uses it more often to mean the “building at the end of the road with a cross on top”, yet the original intent was a body of people, the ‘Body of Christ’.

    William Law partialy observed this problem in the 1720’s, in his “A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life” – yet his message to do with man’s focus on public worship versus the gospel directives applicable to everday life is still not popular – but then neither were the teachings of Jesus, so, no surprises there 🙁

    Yes indeed Marilyn – once (if.?.) we can all get around the ‘us and them’ attitude, and understand that we are all members of His Body – maybe, we will begin to understand the unity that Lord Jesus so desires..

  221. Zululander May 4th 2013

    Thanks everyone. Intercessor…well said.
    The tone of our discussion is sooo much better I think.
    There is no one answer fits every person.
    What I do know is that the church in individual lives is a group of called out people where there are developing all the ministries mentioned in scripture growing in God.
    We will all admit that the growth to this point in our lives took place in a church.
    I’ll say this that one must never ever leave a church with anger, bitterness, strife & hurt. One MUST deal with the stuff first. Not with them, but the problem in you. we know the wonderful thing called forgiveness & love? Use it as a weapon against you own hurt, anger or whatever you have.

    Intercessor what wonderful statement you made:.
    WHEN YOU’RE FREE TO GO, YOU’RE FREE TO STAY.. Thank you, I won’t ever forget it. It encapsulates what I believe.
    That statement can do with some meditation. THATS real freedom in Christ

    Well folks its Saturday morning & the Sharks are about to give the Highlanders a lesson in international Southern hemisphere rugby.
    Sorry Andrew Strom & others over there:):):)

    Be Blessed

  222. Hi watchful & Roger,

    Is our experience going to define truth for us or is God’s word going to define truth for us?

    God still wants Candlesticks (local congregations), nothing has changed since the time of the Apostles… 🙂

    If you choose to believe that we are in the great “falling away” then Hebrews 10:24-25 would be even more appropriate for you would it not (so God can have a visible testimony in a locality)?

    Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:23-25 NASB)

    I don’t understand why you both continually resist this…

    We have been round this mountain many times… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  223. Marilyn Crow May 4th 2013

    Yes Roger, we are all members of His Body. How wonderful. The Holy Spirit forms the Body by uniting believers to Christ, the Risen & Glorified Head & to each other.

    Then the Holy Spirit that forms us also nourishes us.
    `We…have all been made to drink into one Spirit.`
    `We…are all nourished by that one Spirit.` (1 Cor. 12: 13)

    Therefore it must be a life in the Holy Spirit to ensure the full healthy acting of every member.
    `Be (being) filled with the Spirit.` (Eph. 5: 18) is the Divine command.

    Just as each cell in the natural body is surrounded by a sea of lymphatic fluids which nourish & cleanse them, so is the provision of the Holy Spirit for each member in the Body of Christ,
    `holding the Head…having nourishment ministered & knit together, increasing with the increase of God.`(Col.2: 19)

    (Notes from `One Lord, One Faith,` by W.A.C.Rowe)

    We are in unity in the Body by Holy Spirit & need to preserve it by our attitude, but the Unity of the Faith is the ongoing work we are doing discussing, sharing, addressing error etc
    `till we all come to the unity of the Faith…`

    `…speaking the truth in love,…` with the right attitude is the testing,
    ay. & I continually need refining. Marilyn

  224. Intercessor May 4th 2013

    Zululander, it does my heart good to know your attitude and your choice for unconditional love in your situation.

    May God bless you in your ‘patch’. I’m from your part of the world and it’s wonderful to look over there and see a light shining so brightly. I’m so encouraged.

    Thank you Father for your Way.

  225. Zululander May 4th 2013

    I have a couple who I have been mentoring for many years & hey now have 3 kids. Two serve the Lord in a wonderful way & the third sells drugs on the street.
    they don’t agree with his lifestyle but as a family never castigate him & destroy him with words. Why? they love him.
    I wonder how the Lord feels about us when we say some of the things we do about His family.
    Lee was correct to point out the failings in the Church, we need to know. What we need to watch is our attitude to it. Love & care for it, never pull it down. Treat it like an errant member of your family who you love dearly

  226. fabakary May 4th 2013

    Marilyn Crow wrote:Joan W. – miss you & your God given wisdom. Hope all`s well.
    Marilyn, Joan told me she was to visit a family member some days off the net and that was since the 24th of last month. She told me she hope to come home by yesterday , that is on the 3rd of this month, so hopefully if there is any delay expect her this days.
    About coming out. Personally I was in a holiness pentecostal denomination before the lord call me out. Talk about purity, love etc I have seen enough of that in the practical sense in them.There message is basically repentance, holiness by the spirit of grace. That was why when the lord called me out I was crying in tears, because I had seen the christian life in the practical sense in the members. When the Lord called me out it was strange having never say any cal like but one thing was clear to me is that “the lord wanted to deal with me” not because of a wrong attitude in denomination. In fact I taught the lord calling me out to teach me something after which I will write them and then will die. And I was prepare for such physical death.You see my focus was only within because externally I did not see any falseness or hypocrisy in the denomination in the practical lives of the members.
    But Later the Lord call out one of the brother , and told him “there is a new order”. Remember none of us knew by then or heard a word call a “a new order”.
    So we had the faith the lord was working out and binging forth a new emphasis , in his body which we later came to know through his teaching as the unity of his body and the growing of unto fullness in Christ. We received severe persecutions , accusation as following the devil and false voices etc many where warn never come near us, even some of those we were helping financially before were told never to accept our money. The lord started calling more brethren , and it causes greater strive and some have to specifically have a prayer meeting “to curse me with prayers” . Many fear to even associates or greet some of us because of the rumors. One of the pastor wished it was the old testament so that they will killed and finish with us etc. But with all this the Lord emphasis us to WALK IN LOVE, never to curse them or speak evil of them but pray for them. Today we meet and share encouraging one another, but that “Church bashing ” attitudes is not something the lord accepts us to do. Many of those we have influence to Christ still goes to denominations , and even some that we influence after coming out ,we never tell them to leave and come and follow us , which is mostly trying to carnally build something, rather we allow the Lord to do His work in their lives by allowing them to have the experience he wish them to have even in denominations .When one brother was having some bitterness because of the criticism he faced when the lord call him out, the lord show him in a vision about another brother who is greater than him because in the midst of criticism HE WAS WALKING IN LOVE.Since that day he had a different attitude towards the denominations. We also believe there many brethren in the denomination who are part of the body and so can be used by the lord direction to serve as a witness us or confirm us some truths in medium like books, cassettes , videos etc. So we have an open heart to the Lord guidance.

  227. I’ve just watched the end of the Chronicles of Narnia, “The Lion, the witch & the wardrobe” with our three younger children…

    Aslan lays down his life, comes back to life… All the statutes in the witches castle are breathed on by Aslan and then the witch is defeated by Aslan…

    A good proportion of the army had been turned to stone by the witch once they were breathed on they came back to life and fought with Aslan…

    A good number of our brothers and sisters have been bewitched…

    They need to be breathed on by the Holy Spirit to come alive and take their place in the Body of Christ…

    We have the spiritual weapons in Christ to restore the local congregation (the Candlestick) to being what she was always intended to be by the Lord…

    Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world…

    If we have experienced His Power in even just one way then that proves that His Power is sufficient to restore His local testimony to what He has always intended it to be…

    Praise You Jesus…

    Who is with me?

    This will cost us everything for this is the most resisted beachhead which needs to be won before John 17 can be accomplished and fulfilled…

    This is where His Heart is…

    Praise You Jesus…

  228. Marilyn Crow May 4th 2013


    Bless you. What a wonderful attitude in the Lord.`
    `that `church bashing` attitude is not something that the Lord accepts us to do.`

    That is so encouraging to hear. We are all led to see that truth.Jesus died for the person & not to be concerned with what man is doing, just keep discipling, helping others in their journey in life & helping them to help those around them.

    I have a Pentecostal friend who has now been in the Catholic denomination for 10 years. She fled there as it seemed to centre on the cross when things around her were tumbling. Well when I visit & stay for a few days I go with her to mass, but sit during that time. I focus & pray for the people & get to know her friends & get involved in their every day life.

    The things of man fall off & only the truth stands the test of time. So that is where I spend my energies on, where people are helping others in their everyday life & bringing the truth of Christ in everyday languge to others when appropriate.

    It seems fabakary that the Lord has shown you a great truth for with that attitude we can all help each other to come to the fullness of truth even though we disagree at the moment.

    Bless you brother in the Lord. Be encouraged, others believe also & have been maligned too.


  229. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Andrew J ,

    Regarding your comments above towards those who are not in denominational organized fellowships :

    Had you considered that you are fortunate to have found a fellowship where the leadership are submitted to Lord Jesus Christ ?

    Would it not be better to rejoice in what you have than imply that others who don’t have what you have are somehow resisting ?

    I don’t believe Lord Jesus Christ ever instructed or expected anyone to come under leadership that is not submitted unto Him.

    Andrew , you would be aware of the many verses and passages in the bible that warn of coming under teachings and leaders who don’t serve Lord Jesus Christ.

    I don’t believe any one would resist as you have put it fellowship that was led by people who showed the reality of Lord Jesus Christ in their lives.

    It would do well to remember that wide is the path to destruction and narrow is the path to life.

    So the true servants of our Lord Jesus Christ are going to be in a minority , therefore true fellowships are going to be in a minority and just because people are not part of any organized religion, doesn’t mean that they don’t have meaningful fellowship with others in the body of Christ.

  230. Kevin May 4th 2013

    We have a very real problem in the west with self appointed pastors who show no evidence that they are called of God.

    Many have taken up the role as a life style choice and are self promoting, seeking glory and money for themselves.

    Any one who finds a true servant of Lord Jesus Christ , who is leading a local fellowship , is indeed fortunate.

    To those who feel that they have been called out ;

    Check your own fruit to make sure you are not offended , unforgiving or resentful in any way .

    Then the next time you attend a fellowship , look at the leadership and ask yourself ,

    Are they surrendered unto Lord Jesus Christ ?

    Does the fruit of His spirit show in their lives ?

    For this is the most important consideration when considering becoming part of a local fellowship.

  231. GaryB May 4th 2013

    You made some very good points here. Its good to hear this put in a proper perspective.

    I think for some if you have never walked in another man’s shoes it would be easy to misjudge.

    Sometimes as Christians I think we get the attitude its my way or the highway. 🙂

    I did attend one church for a period of time that the minister would say that he would not give anyone assurance of salvation if they left his church. Looking back now that statement seems very strange. It was as though that church was the only group to make it into heaven.

    Roger I think your right here, we see through a glass darkly now, but one day we will fully understand.


  232. Zululander May 4th 2013

    In my opinion the most important thing in joining a church is…Is this where God wants me? Then find out (if you don’t yet know) what He wants to do in your life & then by His grace get on with it.
    Amazing how many pastors there are who are “not called by God” or are just so terrible & how many folk who have got it all together & who are so led by the Spirit who God doesn’t use to pastor a church!!! Seems like He’s a little confused!!!!

  233. GaryB May 4th 2013


    Good thoughts there in your comments.

    My wife had a friend that they would walk together for exercise. The lady was a devout Catholic. Now after all these years this woman has received Christ into her life and is growing in leaps and bounds. Shes had to endure some persecution from the rest of her family but this happens.

    My wife never pushed doctrine on her but would share as the Lord led and just lived her Christianity. God behind the scenes dealt with this gals heart and slowly brought her around. BTW my wife has had a huge influence on people coming to the Lord. I don’t think many of you sisters get credit for the witness you have before the Lord. But Jesus knows all of our hearts.

    Anyway a note of encouragement, just keep pressing in for your friend God will bring her to salvation in His time.


  234. Zululander May 4th 2013

    Not only that but it looks like He can’t even use us to be light where it’s dark, love where there is no love, patient & supporting where there is none etc etc. Seems He wants us to bring light to the light. DO we want to teach where there is no one to teach (out of fellowship) & run away from where we think they need teaching!!!!!!!!!
    Maybe we need to be happy where God wants us, do with love & enthusiasm what He wants us to do, & stop telling everyone where they should be & the conditions that should prevail for them to stay

  235. GaryB May 4th 2013

    I assume your not in America. Over here a lot of men go into the ministry because it is a good career choice that pays well. In other words they are there because of the money and easy lifestyle. Many have no calling.

    Then on the other hand some who are called to ministry, they are like Paul, on the backside of the desert for years learning to listen to the Spirit of God, rightly dividing the Word of God as well.

    This is not true in every case.

    But when the great outpouring takes place we will see a lot of ministers come forth as flames of fire. They will not just do the works of Jesus but will go on to do the greater works that the Lord tells us about.

    I really believe this will happen one day.


  236. Zululander May 4th 2013

    Sorry for my bluntness. I don’t intend to be rude & my bit of sarcasm is also wrong. My apologies everyone.

  237. Kevin May 4th 2013

    The headship of the fellowship has to be right with Lord Jesus Christ for this is the covering , the anointing and the authority through which those who are a work in progress can be discipled and grow.

    How do those who need discipleship grow under self serving manipulating leadership who are not surrendered unto Christ ?

    Who seek to butcher and fleece the flock for their own gain ?

    I think many are in total denial about this ?

    How can the blind lead the blind ?

    Where does the word say they will end up ?

  238. Zululander May 4th 2013

    Hi Gary. I’m is SA. Zululand where to Zulus ruled.
    You’re right, very sad, treat them like unbelievers, theyre in the dark just like so many unsaved who don’t know God & don’t go to church. Tares & wheat together whether in groups or individually.
    The devil is fleecing them all….of their lives, not just their funds./
    He’s the enemy, not the false pastors.

  239. Kevin May 4th 2013

    The devil does His work through false pastors

  240. Kevin May 4th 2013

    2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

    2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

    Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

  241. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Make sure the leadership show the fruit of the True Lord Jesus Christ !

  242. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

  243. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
    Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

  244. Kevin May 4th 2013

    1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
    1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
    1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
    1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
    1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?
    1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
    1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
    1Ti 3:9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
    1Ti 3:10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.
    1Ti 3:11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.
    1Ti 3:12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.
    1Ti 3:13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

  245. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Why should leadership not be held accountable to the written word ?

    If they are truly called they will obey the commands and show the fruit of the one who called them,

  246. Kevin May 4th 2013

    Lord Jesus Christ , let your true servants be known, and let them speak your voice , that those who know you will also know the ones you speak for you and are called to serve you in discipleship.

    In your name and for your glory

    Lord Jesus Christ

  247. GaryB May 4th 2013

    I agree with what you are saying here. Everyone should have some accountability. I think when some individuals become one man shows they think that God approves of everything they do.

    I don’t know if its all intentional but it ends up being another church fiasco.

    Were all accountable to the Lord.


  248. fabakary May 4th 2013

    Thank you Marilyn Crow for that testimony , No truth but only Christ working in us is sufficient to keep us above the pressures of life. I am bless with such similar counsels from many other posts here. If we daily submit from the Lord in rest and allow him, to walk we will be free from bitterness , or forcing to destroy what is not of him by our own wisdom etc knowing at the end of the day, His full purposes will be done in fullness. Our call is a Love walk.

  249. GaryB May 4th 2013


    I did not take it that you were being rude brother. Your a blessing from the Lord.

    I am not familiar with your area will have to look it up on a map. Its good to know the Lord has believers in your area. I have been blessed by your comments.

    I live in the middle of Indiana in the States. Its a very rural area.

    Lord Bless

  250. Zululander May 4th 2013

    Kevin I agree with you but they are not accountable to us. We are also accountable to God for what we say & do. Outside the church you cannot hold them to account.
    Having a lot to say about them is not doing one single bit of good.
    I can’t make sure someone bears fruit, specially when I reveal very little myself.
    When you look at the church, are you positive change, no change or negative change….& by that I mean is your only contribution criticism & finger pointing?
    For me Kevin, that’s the challenge. I think we should choose contributing from inside with much patience & love & grace. ie just like God deals with us.
    We all see things a little differently from our perch so long as we let “brotherly love continue”

  251. watchful May 4th 2013

    fabakery, it looks as though your leaving the church and subsequent persecution by them has exposed the wrong in the church that you didn’t notice previously when you were part of it. I also would like to commend your Christ-like attitude towards them. We are not mistresses/masters of our own destiny, we are God’s servants who just do what He tells us, and then He works the work of whatever it is He is doing.

    Andrew J, you said to go by the scriptures and I certainly agree with that brother and endeavouring by His grace and light to do just that. Not saying I understand everything perfectly but more than I used to, growth at last. Well if you want to look at Aslan, then look again at how they were turned to stone inside the witch’s castle and not outside it.

    To start with, the current ways of structuring and doing church “services” are not the example and instruction we were given in the bible. This has become clear to those who have come out and had their minds renewed in those things. God never planned to dwell in a house built by human hands, it seems He prefers David’s wilderness tabernacle which has fallen, but with a promise to rebuild, praise the name of the Lord.

  252. watchful May 4th 2013

    I hear you Kevin, amen.

  253. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    Yet, we see (are) spot and wrinkle for a short time, the Groom has not forsaken. He loves her with an everlasting love, she is His! He will continue to use her (each one of us) while he does his perfecting..Our love for him in obedience, perfects her, our tolerance perfects her, our love, faith, joy….., perfect her, our gentleness perfects her, etc. Christ at work in each of us, steadily perfects her.. If we are in an imperfect church, let us be loyal to His Calling, servants of Christ, hastening her beauty as he works himself ‘through us’. We are positionally ‘white’ though not always practically spotless in behavior ‘yet’.
    Only God can use the imperfections of the Church, to the perfecting of the Church. – and that He does! The church shall walk with him spottless, because we shall be like him, seeing him as he is. What rejoicing there shall be. and here, we wait.

    When He Shall Come

    When He shall come resplendent in His Glory,
    To take His own from out this vale of night,
    O may we know the joy at His appearing,
    Only at morn to walk with Him in white.

    When He shall call from earth’s remotest corners
    All who have stood triumphant in His might,
    O to be worthy then to stand beside them
    And in that morn to walk with Him in white.

    When we shall stand within the court of Heaven
    Where white robed pilgrims pass before our sight,
    Earth’s martyred saints and bloodwashed overcomers
    These then are they who walk with Him in white.

    We are that Church. God bless you all !

  254. watchful May 4th 2013

    I wonder, with all the talk about love, which is good, but do we ever consider the indignation of the Lord, or His rebuke. And that He also does impart these to His servants at times.

  255. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    Thankyou for the previous scripture reference and explanation. I am anxious to study these verses today, in our ‘ancient A.R Faussset, M.A.,Bible Clclopaedia’.. It is a good resource study book.

    God Bless! 🙂

  256. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    I couldn’t find anymore verses specifically referencing the ‘double’ portion, etc. I did go to Matthew Henry’s Commentary on Isaiah 40. I felt it explained this concept more thoroughly. Just a man’s thoughts, but he does have some good insight in many areas.


  257. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    PS..did a Ctrl f search on this site. Went directly to all ‘double’s.

  258. fabakary May 4th 2013

    Watchful wrote:”fabakery, it looks as though your leaving the church and subsequent persecution by them has exposed the wrong in the church that you didn’t notice previously when you were part of it. ”
    Watchful , the heart and relationship with Christ is the issue, that is why you can also meet people outside the denominations , “come outers” also either accusing or calling that you are of the devil. I will confess that I am far more impress with the Love i saw among those in that denominations than the many of the “come outer” that I know with whom even two can hardly walk together, in a mere Internet. One must stand in Christ and continue pressing in his grace and forget all the distractions that comes along the way for that will lead to bitterness , hate, which will defile us. When Love is absent in any thing you do, you are out of the way. And also one need to be careful of trying to help God by his own wisdom.

  259. Barry Schmidt May 4th 2013

    Been thinking and praying more about this incredibly interesting topic of how to relate to problem churches and problem professors of faith.
    While the Scriptures in do tell us to stay away from people who CLAIM to be saved but who continue steadfastly in sin

    But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. (1 Corinthians 5:11 NASB)

    While this is the bottom line in our decision whether to stay with professors of faith in Jesus or to leave- I have a question that may be worth considering?

    In the Old Covenant worshippers became unclean by “touching” that which was unclean BUT under the New Covenant worshippers make that which is unclean become clean by touching it.

    “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Ask now the priests for a ruling: If a man carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and touches bread with this fold, or cooked food, wine, oil, or any other food, will it become holy?'” And the priests answered, “No.” Then Haggai said, “If one who is unclean from a corpse touches any of these, will the latter become unclean?” And the priests answered, “It will become unclean.” (Haggai 2:11-13 NASB)

    Ie Under the Old Covenant no one could come within 5 ft of a lepor or they would become defiled and unclean by the lepor. But Jesus made lepor a clean by touch.
    Unclean food becomes clean by prayer in the New Covenant.

    Now here is the principle. Self effort and legalistic people tend to approach everything and every relationship with the fear based Old Covenant approach to life. That is why they are always stressing about becoming unclean by the people and practices around them. That is why they often disfellowship themselves from other believers as well- the fear of being defiled.

    Under the New Covenant of grace this fear is removed. Since our holiness, purity and sanctification is not based in human BEHAVIOR or performance but from an outside objective Source ( namely the righteousness and holiness and cleanness of Christ) then we cannot LOSE our cleanness from the people around us. In fact Christ IN US REACHES OUT AND “TOUCHES ” the unclean and unholy people around us AND MAKES THEM CLEAN!

    My question is this:
    Do you have an Old Covenant fear based relationship with God and the “unclean” believers around you or ARE YOU WALKING IN THE FAITH BASED NEW COVENANT CONFIDENCE THAT “Gerater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.”???

    What do you think my friends?

  260. Barry Schmidt May 4th 2013

    Fabakary- Just read your of your horrific and horendouz treatment you endured at the hands of your ‘home” church. So very sorry and so very sad with you.
    I am in no way excusing their abuse of you in this but I have to wonder how much of thier treatment of you was motivated by the very thing I am asking about in my previous post- that fear based legalistic approach to life and relationships???
    namely- “Fabakary isnt lining up to our fear based view of God and church by his leaving us- in order to keep from being defiled- we MUST BEAT AND ABUSE HIM UNTIL HE SUBMITS OR WE WILL ALL BE PUNISHED!”
    WASNT THIS THE VERY REASON the religious zealots of Jesus day persectuted and abused Jesus and the early followers of Jesus? Wasn’t it because -like you- they had chosen to “obey God rather than follow the crowd out of the fear of man?
    So very sorry you have had to endure this my friend!

  261. Barry Schmidt May 4th 2013

    This is just ONE MORE reason why we all need to repent of self effort fear based performance orienated religion and trun to Jesus PLUS nothing for our salavtion from start to finish?


  262. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    Kevin, re: Why should leadership not be held accountable to the written word ?

    If they are truly called they will obey the commands and show the fruit of the one who called them,
    James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, [leaders are also teachers by example of their walk] my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

    God is holding all leaders accountable. We just don’t see all God sees.

    I like what one man wisely quoted: ~ Remember, God does not settle all his accounts in October ! ~ ?

  263. Lightning Storm May 4th 2013

    Whoa…..Barry that is an excellent word! AMEN

  264. http://www.revivalschool.com/9-bad-charismatic-habits-we-need-to-break/#comment-15480

    I’m walking in the grace based understanding which you refer to Barry but only because the Lord has opened my eyes to see this… 🙂

  265. Hi Kevin,

    I am unapologetically holding up the mirror for us to see ourselves, I believe in the Candlestick – that is not the same as some denominationally based system…

    We have discussed this enough times here for me not to need to spell it out all over again…

    I believe in the Candlestick – the local congregation – as described in scripture…

    And all we see going on around us shows me that the devil knows how powerful it is as he’s been doing his darnedest to snuff it out…

    Love in the Lord,


  266. And every rebuke which Jesus ever made to a Candlestick was redemptive – He (the Father) prunes every branch in Jesus which bears fruit (which is what the Candlestick does) so that it can bear more fruit (the gifts and calling of God is without repentance, i.e. not removed just waiting until someone will believe it again)… 🙂

  267. He will never break a promise that He has made – The Lord is Faithful 🙂

  268. “My Heart is Restoration, Restoration of all things”, declares the Lord…

  269. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    Nice music clip, Andrew! He does remain Faithful. I love how we can discuss all these varying views and opinions, and our hearts return to minister to all in Godly music; bringing glory to The Faithful One. Be Blessed . 🙂


  270. fabakary May 4th 2013

    Yes Barry when I read your comment I can fully understand and agree with you how much of those reaction where based on wrong fear. Of course we received persecution from different pastors of different denominations but when you look deeper you will come into conclusion must is based on fear energies by the enemy. One reason was we all came to Christ by then not more than five years. Two we were all either in our early twenties or late teens. Three none of them was led that way. So they had that believe there was no way we can be kept in the faith in that direction.
    I wrote about how in those early days the former denomination they will never allow others members near us or even to accept financial help from us like before. But throughout all this years after they saw that we are still not wayward, into ungodliness as they expected, today we have two young orphans’ boys who are members of their denomination under our care , staying with us. In those early days those boys were not staying with us because there mum was alive but even then they were forbidden to visit us when we came out. There is still many things they did not understand about us with the few other pastors from some different denominations, but now it is no longer a crime about the first denomination for a member to greet us or visit us, etc. Something is surprising them, they never accepts it this way. I agree with you.

  271. Beautiful song HHHLGA, Praise the Lord for His Faithfulness to us, let us be found faithful to one another, “Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ”, “when one member suffers they all suffer”… 🙂

  272. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    I agree Brother, We are here to gain wisdom from others. To help bear others sufferings, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

    We are here to embrace others in Jesus Christ, for when one suffers, all suffer.

    Some things are joyful and laughable. Hope this isn’t offensive to any.
    This group become endearing to us after we saw them perform in 1991. Love there fun songs too. Shut De Do

  273. fabakary May 4th 2013

    JOAN W
    Brothers and sisters in Christ , I received a message from a person who claim to be Joan w son , saying Joan W passed away , i received it since on the 23rd of last month using Joan W email. Because of the many hackers around the net , I was very careful to rush into conclusion. What makes it worst is I never received any specific revelation concerning her situation. So what I did was to ask the one claiming to be the son questions . When I asked him the questions he was offended and so never replied back again. So I said to my self I will wait until the 4th of this month which is today and see if I will hear from her since I did not received any specific revelation. But today when Marilyn crow asked about her, i went back and wrote back to her email and the one claiming to be the son replied back saying he was offended with my questions that was why he did not replied back. For some unknown reason maybe because of the sadness the guy just avoid my questions. This was the reason of my delay in announcing it here. This is what I heard and I think it is true, but i have not received any specific clear revelation on that. But I am sure if I did not hear her for the coming days since she told me she will be back by 3rd this month which was yesterday then the information must be very true. If this story is true it is more than the word heartbreaking, I cannot just believe it true up to now. I apologies to you all for the lateness of announcing it .

  274. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    This is a matter of prayer for many here. Please keep us poster, she has been on my heart lately as well. Thanks for making this known. God Bless! 🙁

  275. GaryB May 4th 2013

    Psalm 116:15

    15 Precious in the sight of the Lord
    Is the death of His saints.

  276. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 4th 2013

    Looking Unto Jesus


    GLORY ~ † ~

    One day eyes that are blind will see You clearly
    One day all who deny will finally believe
    One day hearts made of stone will break in pieces
    One day chains once unbroken will fall down at Your feet
    So we wait for that one day, come quickly

    We wanna see Your glory
    Every knee falls down before Thee
    Every tongue offers You praise with every hand raised
    Singing glory to You and unto You only
    We’ll sing glory to Your name

    One day voices that lie will all be silenced
    One day all that’s divided will be whole again
    One day death will retreat and wave it’s white flag
    One day love will defeat the strongest enemy
    So we wait for that one day, come quickly

    We wanna see Your glory
    Every knee falls down before Thee
    Every tongue offers You praise with every hand raised
    Singing glory to You and unto You only
    We’ll sing glory to Your name

    We know not today or the hour
    Or the moments in between
    But we know the end of the story
    When we’ll see

    Your glory
    Every knee falls down before Thee
    Every tongue offers You praise with every hand raised
    Singing glory to You and unto You only
    We’ll sing glory to Your name, oh one day !

  277. watchful May 4th 2013

    So very sad to hear about Joan, fabakery. I will miss her. I’m sure it is because of grief that her son didn’t know what to make of the questions. Would you be able to send a little message of our heartfelt sympathy and fond remembrance of Joan to her family, from all of us here, if everyone agrees..?

  278. Lightning Storm May 4th 2013

    Hallelujah Joan! If this is true, you have been set free from this world of darkness/oppression and you are now enjoying FULL LIGHT, FULL TRUTH, and FULL LOVE……..looking into the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST!

    Your loyal intercession is now completely unimpaired….Praise the Lord, your family doesn’t stand a chance of avoiding repentance and surrender to Jesus now.

  279. fabakary May 4th 2013

    That will be good watchful. In case you want to send your sympathy , you can get in touch directly with the son through Joan w former email o. This is very heart breaking.The email is

    [email protected]

  280. fabakary May 4th 2013

    Sorry that email is the sons original email Joan w email is
    [email protected]. you can get the son through it .

  281. watchful May 4th 2013

    Thanks fabakary.

  282. Averyl May 4th 2013

    There’s something I don’t understand:

    I live in the same city as a brother who regularly posts on here, have visited him & invited he & his wife to return the visit. But sadly, he never contacts me.
    I wonder why this is?
    I’m tempted to feel not good enough or even worse.

    Your thoughts?

  283. DonaldN May 4th 2013

    My advice is to not make a judgment based on the unknown. Perhaps he has a reason that he is not able to share.
    Pray for them and move on.
    Definitely do not make a judgment against yourself based on nothing.
    We also will pray for understanding.

  284. DonaldN May 4th 2013

    I have a question for all.

    Concerning those leaving the established churches and the leadership of the churches,

    what is you understanding of Ezekiel chapter 34?

    Any comments?

  285. GaryB May 4th 2013


    I agree with DonaldN. There could be a million reasons why a person does not do something a certain way.

    Don’t let it bother you brother, move on in the Lord, He has something better for you in life, just keep seeking Him. He will never leave us or forsake us.


  286. Marilyn Crow May 4th 2013


    Perhaps that couple have been hurt by previous relationships or just haven`t got the time or energy to out into another relationship. Also if you are single, widow, etc & they are a couple they might find that difficult. Many people are wary of others & often want to keep their life close to home. A myriad of reasons & I`m sorry that that has happened to you. I would visit if I was close. So bless you sister & we`ll keep relating here.


    I was going to thankyou for your information of Joan, then you gave us the latest. Sad for all of us, we`ll so miss her godly wisdom, granny quips, corrections & love.

    `Promoted to Glory.` Well done good & faithful servant, Joan, we are very blessed to have you move amongst us.

    Thank you Lord for your precious servant who showed us so much of you.


  287. Kevin May 4th 2013


    You are referring to myself and my wife.

    We have always welcomed you into our home and are not aware of declining invitations from you to visit.

    What you say about your feelings , is not a reflection of our attitude towards you.

    You have never said anything to us about what you have raised above.

    Averyl , I’m not sure what is underneath what you have posted above, however be assured that it is not coming from either myself or my wife.

    In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ


  288. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Andrew JH – you quoted a scripture, and asked:

    Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:23-25 NASB)

    I don’t understand why you both continually resist this…
    We have been round this mountain many times…

    The passage that you quote is often used to speak to born-again believers who are OOC – however, in context, the writer is speaking to Hebrew born-again believers and followers of Lord Jesus – encouraging them not to return to Judaism, but to continue in their ‘new’ faith as explained to them in the first part of chapter 10.

    Please tell me – what is it that I, watchful, (and others) are resisting..?

    Is it God’s direction for our lives – or – is it your current viewpoint..?

    Yes Andrew J, we have been ‘around the mountain’ on this – please lay it down..

    I am truly pleased for you that you have now found a fellowship to which God has directed you. I trust Almighty God in this for, thank Him and praise Him.

    In His love,

  289. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Andrew JH – to clarify – this is the question you asked:

    “…I don’t understand why you both continually resist this…
    We have been round this mountain many times…”

  290. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    You invited comments on your question regarding Ez. 34, & `those leaving the established churches & the leadership of the churches.`

    Personally my husband & I left the established format type meetings not because of unChrist like leadership but because of the restricting format & not wishing to spend our time & energy on public meetings but discipling, teaching & shepherding, others ourselves. This we are doing & now our disciples are discipling others & even up to a third generation so far. It is very rewarding.

    Not having natural children we are very blessed with many spiritual children who are now adults in the Lord.

    I will now address Ez. 34. The prophecy against the shepherds of Israel.

    When we interpret scripture we need to do it God`s way & not ours. Many have been taught to read the Old Testament picking & choosing what they want. This not only robs us of what God wants to show us but leads us into all sorts of error.

    God`s Keys to Interpreting His Word.
    (`handling accurately the word of truth.` 2 Tim. 2: 15)

    1. All scripture leads to Christ. (Luke 24: 44)

    Ez. 34 shows us the comparison of Christ the good Shepherd & the shepherds of Israel who mistreated the flock. (at the time of the prophecy) To meditate on the wonderful description of our Lord as He tends His flock, Israel, (v. 11 – 16) enlarges our understanding of Christ, feeds our spirit on the truth of His faithful character & reveals more of His purposes for Israel.

    2. Christ has purposes for 3 groups. (The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. 1 Cor. 10: 32)

    Christ has plans for Israel to give them His servant David to rule over them in the millennium. (v. 25 – 30)
    `they will no longer be prey to the nations.` etc.

    3. All scripture….is profitable for teaching, correction… `(2 Tim.3: 16)
    They are examples for us, that we should not …….`(1 Cor. 10:6) these are behaviour instructions.

    If we try & make all that God is saying to Israel fit into the Body of Christ we end up with a mess. Note at the time of Ezekiel`s prophecy all the shepherds of Israel were `dominating,` the people. This does not transfer to the Body of Christ.

    Christ is the Head of the Body & He is maturing it. (us) yes there are some wolves, false teachers, false shepherds around but there are so many people throughout the world shepherding with Christ`s heart for His people. Just as Paul said,

    `we proved to be gentle among you as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children.` &

    `just as you know how we were exhorting & encouraging & imploring each of you as a father would his own children.`

    Many of these shepherds you will not see on a platform because they are quietly out tending the flock in the back blocks, the busy streets & in small villages, etc. Christ is not showy & does not need a certain format that man produced from the 16th century, to shepherd His flock. (Though of course He works through people in those formats who obey Him). But Christ mainly went to the highways & byways where the people lived, & He is still doing that today.

    So let`s becareful how we interpret God`s word & not let man`s way of interpreting bring condemnation –
    `all shepherds are bad etc. wrong interpretation of Ez. 34.`

    but God`s way brings life – Looking firstly to Christ, described here as the good shepherd then see how He deals with His people Israel in their land. Then finally think on the good shepherd & how He is maturing us under the guidance of good shepherds across the world.(Think of Andrew Strom here for example)

    Let us all keep growing to maturity & continue ourselves to be good shepherds to those around us.


  291. GaryB May 5th 2013

    Roger (NZ)

    What part of the island do you live on? I looked at a map of New Zealand and seen some pictures as well. What a beautiful place on this Earth to live.

    I could not imagine being in a scenic place as New Zealand.


  292. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    Thankyou for the great question as it gave me an opportunity to show God`s way of Interpreting His word & man`s way. God`s way brings clarity & life, man`s way brings confusion & condemnation. That is why there is often so many different views here as people have not been shown God`s way to interpret His word.


  293. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    DonaldN – you asked a question concerning Ezek. 34..?

    I would love to apply this passage to support (from scripture) my own leading and journey outside of the structured denominational churches.. 🙂

    However I cannot – this is God speaking to Israel through Ezekiel, His promises that He will shepherd them, regather them from the far countries, restore them to their own land.

    Although (I believe) some of this has been fulfilled – we also read in this chapter, promises for a future time (millenial.?.) where they shall bear no longer the shame, or be a prey, of the heathen, and that all shall know that Israel are His people.

    You will know that later chapters in Ezekiel deal with future wars, and a future division of the ‘promised land’, plus a return to the original covenanted boundaries.

    I can see the allegory in this passage to those born-again believers who have been led out, and into Him – certainly I recognise Lord Jesus as my shepherd, and scripture declares Jesus promise that He would send His Holy Spirit as our comforter, counsellor, and teacher.

    I testify that it is He who disciples me, but in clarification this may be directly through revelation, scripture, or another man’s teaching as well as life experiences – I learn through all these ways.

    Thanks for asking the question Donald 🙂 I hope that others have input too, and share their understanding..?

    In His love,

  294. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Oh – have now just seen Marilyns reply… looks like we were posting at the same time.. 🙂

  295. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    GaryB – currently we are in the N.Island, on the west coast, the city of Wanganui. I say currently, as we are moved around from time to time..

    There are two nicknames for NZ that I am aware of: one is the ‘shaky isles’ due to the daily tremors in one part of the country or another, – the other is ‘Godsown’ or ‘Godzone’, referring to the scenery that you noted.

    Part of that scenery is a chain of mountains in the S.Island, which continues to a lessor degree in the North, but punctuated with volcanoes. A major fault line runs up the middle of the S.Island, and then veers to the eastern shore line of the North.

  296. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


  297. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    Appreciated your answer. (Must have pressed something -above)
    I also thought New Zealand was the `Land of the long white cloud.` That`s how I remember people talking about it when I would visit.

    Fancy being in Wanganui. That is where I `fell,` out of a car when I was young. It was the old type of car with the door opening the other way. I was on the floor between my mother`s legs. The door apparently wasn`t quite closed & mum opened it to close it, but I was hanging on to the the bottom handle. So there I went sailing off into the air while my uncle who was driving saw me in the rear vision mirror.

    I landed on the only bit of grass for miles. They turned around & picked me up then raced off to Wanganui. The police pulled them over for speeding but saw me, probably heard me screaming & then gave us a police escort to the hospital. All I had were scratches on my arms & legs. Amazing. PTL.

    Love New Zealand especially the creamy ice-cream. Marilyn.

  298. Kevin May 5th 2013

    What I don’;t understand is why does where we fellowship and how we fellowship even have to be a talking point ?

    It seems to have become one of the first things christians ask each other when they first meet, then make a judgment based on the response.

    If we are in” fellowship” why should it matter to us if our Lord Has some outside of where we fellowship ?

    If we are outside of “fellowship” , why should it matter to us if others are in “fellowship”

    I would rather know about a persons personal walk with our Lord .

    How He works through their lives

    In what areas they are currently learning and growing in Him.

    and what revelation they have of Him from the part of His Body they are.

    Seeking approval or validation from others as to what we are currently doing , or to somehow imply that others should be doing as we are doing , only serves to put up barriers to discovering the manifold wisdom of our Lord Jesus Christ that is displayed through the different parts of His Body.

  299. Kevin May 5th 2013

    All we end up with is fellowship of the same body parts

    An arm fellowship where all a welcome so long as you are an arm !

    A leg fellowship , where all are welcome so long as you are a leg or are willing to become a leg !

    and so on

  300. Andrew May 5th 2013

    “Body Life” is the New Testament way.

    You can make every excuse, but the lack of will to be part of “Body Life” cannot go without challenge.


    Andrew Strom.

  301. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Marilyn – yes, you are correct – “land of the long white cloud”, Aotearoa – how could I have forgotten that..!!!

    Found this of the S.Island scenery for those who are interested, http://vimeo.com/43799611

  302. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Andrew – “..You can make every excuse, but the lack of will to be part of “Body Life” cannot go without challenge…”

    I agree with you Andrew, and that, I think, is what Kevin and others are saying – when we look at Romans 12 and I Cor.12, we read two passages on the Body of Christ, how there are individual members, and the explanation that not all members are the same, not all have the same gifts or calling.

    I fully appreciate and recognise that many are gathered into local fellowships, where mature born-again believers are called and gifted to walk alongside newly regenerated ‘babes in Christ Jesus’ to teach, encourage, support and (hopefully) to point all toward Christ Jesus our risen Lord for His input into each believers life as their individual relationship with Him develops.

    At the other extreme you have individuals like Bruce Olsen who was ‘called’ to live with a Indian Tribe in Colombia, where he lived for years years learning the language and culture before even once speaking to an Indian about Lord Jesus. The only support he had was the presence of the Holy Spirit, and prayer from his family. Over some 40 years of his living there, not only that tribe, but others in Colombia, including many guerillas and drug traffickers were also converted, and are now born-again.

    No, I am not saying that everyone who is OOC is a Bruce Olsen – but given the list of false teaching, practises and gimmicks that are listed in your opening topic – which many unsaved and non-believers recognise immediately as false – there is a place it seems for people who are ‘called out’ to share with these ones in their own neighbourhood.

    Even in NZ we have met, and walked alongside, some who are repentant, spiritually regenerated, born-again, water baptised, believers without ever going to a church. These ones appreciate sharing with others who accept that God will indeed draw anyone to Himself, no matter who they are or where and how they live.

    I do understand those who cannot accept this truth without a direct revelation from Lord Jesus – I couldn’t until He showed me.

    We all know, and testify, that Jesus is interested in people – He came to Earth to save sinners the first time. Next time, He comes in judgement.

    I can accept all who truly know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, God and King – no matter where they live, or where they fellowship – we are all members of His Body on Earth..

    I pray that all will receive this same understanding and revelation..

    In His love for all,

  303. Andrew May 5th 2013

    I agree that true ‘body’ is hard to find in many “churches”

    But it is not impossible.

    God is calling us ALL to “Body”

    A lot of us need to get a whole more enthusiastic about the concept.

    Bless you!


  304. Roger – I fully agree with what you are saying in your last post. We can’t put the Holy Spirit in a box or dictate how God would use an individual. David Livingstone laboured long and hard among the African tribal peoples, without seeing another European, who even spoke his language and in remote countryside. He was still a ‘body part’ doing the will of God. In his situation it would not be appropriate to say to him “But you must fellowship with other believers”. Ultimately his converts would become his God company. However being in fellowship does not mean being in a manmade or man structured church in a building. God says “When 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst”.

    There are two groups of people running alongside each other.
    The ‘visible’ church and the ‘invisible church”. The Invisible Church is distinguished from the local church by its organization. There is God, Christ and the saints. Other than that organizational hierarchy, there is none in this respect. The Invisible Church has no visible organization like the local church. There is no humanly constructed organization, rather it is a unity created by the Spirit of God. Christ is the builder. He makes the church what it is. Christ says, “Upon this rock I will build my Church…” Jesus does this and as a result the universal church grows. Acts 2:47 states, “the Lord added to the Church from day to day, such that should be saved.” Human beings are incapable of this; God is the great Architect and Builder. We will see that in the local church there is organization which is visible. But for now, we must see that the Invisible Church is the household of faith; the kingdom of brothers and sisters before Jesus Christ, organized not by human effort, but by God in the spirit of men.

    All genuine believers are members of the invisible church whether they are living in heaven or on earth, whether they are alive or dead (i.e., have died physically). Not all professing Christians, however, who are members of the visible church, are members of the invisible church. Some people who make a profession of faith and are baptized are hypocrites. Such people do not truly believe in Christ (thus are never truly united to Him by faith) and are not part of the invisible church.

  305. Zululander May 5th 2013

    Kevin, you’re right, but unfortunately “where you fellowship” now days tells one a lot about your spiritual life…..rightly or wrongly Unfortunately it kinda labels you in a persons mind & that’s bad.

    Marilyn, you cannot beat body life. Do you disciple people to stay out of body life & be lone rangers?

    In body life you’re questioned, supported or/and corrected.
    Years out of body life one develops teachings that may be wrong & theres no body of people to test your teaching. This is where “funny bunnies” come from.

    Proverbs: The first man to plead his cause is right, until his neighbour comes to question him.

    I will sooner listen to a person in a body life who is not a complainer & a judge than a lone ranger
    I would find a good body, not a perfect one & be part of it, it IS Gods plan for you.
    Too many people simply struggle to submit & use every excuse under the sun to get out.
    I heartily but sadly acknowledge there is a LOT of nonsense out there, but there are wonderful imperfect places for everyone to find great fellowship.
    Too many flk say they only need the bible & the Holy Spirit teaches them, they don’t need man to teach them. Well, the evidence is that you’re not well taught because GOD says He placed ministries in the church for the teaching & edifying of the body. Please don’t tell me these ministries are walking around as lone rangers looking for a place to teach. I suggest you fun a mile from these folk. The genuine ones are all in a local body

  306. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    So true. `Where do you go?` How often have I heard that. Trying to label each other. That did my heart good to read of you saying, `I would rather know about a person`s personal walk with our Lord…& what revelation they have of Him.`


    I wonder how many of us know the history of the Pentecostal denominations. I know Andrew reads about the revivals however the development of the Pentecostal churches is very interesting.

    When people received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in the early part of last century they found they were not welcome back in their established church organisation. So being excluded from those fellowships the people just met in their homes with their family &/or friends. There was no organisation.

    Over time different ministries travelled around visiting small groups & people rose up to lead them. But still no formal organisation. After many years some of the groups connected & hired halls & then formed an organisation known as the assemblies (of these various groups) of God.

    My denomination also took awhile to form with God bringing the different groups together finding out that they each believed in the 5 fold ministries.

    The point is that it takes time for us to see what God is doing. God was still working with the people in the old established denominations & He was also working with those that received the revelation of the Holy Spirit & those of the 5 fold.

    Now after a century the Apostolic/Pentecostal denominations are the established organisations also & how easily it becomes to point to those who are not gathering in their organised way, saying you are out of the Church.

    Let`s watch & see what God is doing & to continue to seek every opportunity to gather relationally with other christians to encourage & build each other up. And as we are out in the community helping others, they are seeing us `love each other,` & others, in reality. That is the true Body love.

    May God`s fire grow brighter within each one, Lord.


  307. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    What a great question. I`m so glad you asked it.

    `Do you disciple people to stay out of Body life & be lone rangers?

    It`s like one of those trick questions, `Do you still beat your wife?` inferring that one did. Whatever the person answers they are wrong. No I don`t still… (because I never did) but the implication is there.

    Do you see your implication is that `Body life,` is only possible in an established type of organisation. And obviously I see Body life
    as true relationships between christians as they reach out in their community.

    The second part of the question is very important. When my husband & I decided to work with the disciples the Lord brought
    to us some were in organisations & some not. It is not my business whether people go to an organisation or meet in another way. To me people who obey the Lord are all a part of Christ`s body no matter what way they gather.

    We definitely are not `lone rangers.` I teach the Apostolic doctrine, teachings I learnt at bible school in New Zealand & keep in touch with my uncle, former President of the Apostolic work in Australia. As part of our extended group across the valley here there is a retired minister & his wife whom we regularily meet with & who attend a local community fellowship. There is also a prophet & his wife with whom we have very treasured bible studies.

    Other disciples & peers in the group are those who work on the front line with others in the community. That is my heart to help those who are reaching out to others & guiding them how to disciple these.

    So bottom line is – connect with other ministries in the Body, work with a few & go deep. ie. help them to help others. (2 Tim.2:2)

    Hope that helps explain how we disciple.


  308. Zululander May 5th 2013

    It does Marilyn, thanks & be Blessed

  309. I agree with you Marilyn in response to Zuluander.
    The Body of Christ is not just one local congregation of Christians. The body of Christ is made up of all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Each Christian, then, is a part of the body of Christ. It does not matter whether they reside in a local church assembly, whether they are missionaries like David Livingstone was, whether they meet in homes, whether they meet in the marketplace, or as the persecuted underground church. People need to lay down their preconceived ‘temple fortress mentality of their Roman Church upbringings. How each individual member of the Body of Christ goes about his/her calling, is entirely under the direction of Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit. I have encountered lone Christians worshipping God, on the steppe of Mongolia, and they were lone, because there were no other believers around at that time. But they were still the Body of Christ, doing their bit, mainly reaching out to others with love and the Gospel.
    I am sure we all aim to be on the same page,and it is just the terminology often that can get misleading.

  310. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013

    Hubby is feeding the cows & I`ve just come in from my evening walk. The shadows are lengthening & I would like to share a part of this old prophecy with you all. It was given at the Penygroes convention in 1943, by Ps. J.D.Eynon, who became my Pastor when I was little. It is a long prophecy as they were then but am writing this because Andrew has given an emphasis on the Body.

    The Lord says –

    `…..I have come to form & create a vessel of love, because there is a setting eternal for it. Mark the danger, lest the end of your vision is merely to reach glory; that the end of your conception of truth is that your sins are forgiven, & your hope will bring you to heaven. That indeed is but Love`s provision for the life on the way, but Love`s Purpose is infinitely greater.

    And although it is not possible for Me in that sense to unveil all the mysteries that are in the days to come, I declare this unto you that there will be constantly an unfolding of Divine intention. Eternity will not be the realm of stagnation, but it will be the sphere of progression; & there must, of necessity, be a vehicle for that expression, & the only thing that can bring to birth in that realm will be the vehicle of love.

    The Church which I am now in the process of creating will become the vehicle, will become the womb of eternal birth. That is why there is need & urgency for right relationships one to another. For the organ of life indeed is sensitive, is fragile, & is delicate, & the least note that will bring a disharmony will cause a fissure; & indeed, will bring about a downfall.

    I am manifesting Myself in this time, because I have a Son of My love. There was a vehicle, there was a body, prepared to give expression to the Son of Love. But I want you to embrace My word in mystery in its productive revelation that I must have a Body of people so refined, so brought into union of Divine affection, that there will still be an expression through the Body of Love in the eternal ages to come.

    Oh, My people! with the fulness of revelation coming & moving towards you, think; that some of you cannot speak one to another this day……..

    To be continued. Marilyn.

  311. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013

    `For it is easy to give a countenance that can be free from betrayal. but I the Lord am dealing with the heart. Let Me tell you this, as My people, that the person that will be affected, the person that will miss the Divine vocation is the person who will retain the hardness within his heart, because evil thinking & evil thought will bring its own disqualifications.

    There will be no necessity for God Himself to say `No!` further. The disqualifications will be found within yourselves,My people. For in love there is harmony. In love there is purity. In love there is unbroken melody. In love there is continued sweetness; a willingness to die to pride or self-vindication; love knows how to suffer, & how to abide in humility; love knows not to exalt itself. Love indeed abideth, because love is of God, & God is love.

    I want to deal specifically with your lives, that you may not go away & declare that you have had a wonderful convention, & still your hearts are embittered & your spirits are indeed hard, & filled with harshness. It would be far better for you to have a `terrible,` Convention, than to go away & have a `wonderful experience.`

    Because I love you, because the language of My heart is still `Mine!` I am brooding to gather you unto Myself. that you may be found in such purity that you will well nigh be able to read one another`s thoughts. Think of that! The purity within you, the loveliness within you, will be such that you will live the purity that is resident in thought, in mind, in attitude, one toward another, without an evil thought, without an inner grudge, without a bitter spirit; for it is far easier for Me to perfect one of you than many of you; but I have ventured (& I have faith in My venture) that I will perfect this vehicle for Mine Eternal expression out of a Body of people unto Myself.

    Therefore let yourselves be yielded unto Me, for I have no reserve where love is concerned. I have great fear when I am imparting unto you, My power, because you can take the glory unto yourselves. …..

    And in the eternal realm that is to come, when sin & impurity & iniquity have all been finally destroyed & have been vanquished & have passed away from the midst, & you are in the realm of a new creation, I declare that there will be a new possibility for your God to give a new expression of Himself, but it will be through the preparation of this time.

    Is your calling a little one? Is the hand of God resting upon you merely that you may escape from sin? See to it this day that you will be brought into the fulness of that which I have ordained, & let My Word find its place within your hearts……that you may be able to cry back, `Mine! Mine!` & I will answer you by the inwrought experience of My Spirit within your hearts, `Thou art Mine!`

    `My Beloved is mine` & `I am His!` should be the essence of your communion at this hour, saith the Lord your God.

  312. I’ll be honest with you Roger, you and I have discussed that I have met other believers from your city who have attended prayer events which I’ve also been in attendance at…

    I know, thus that you and your wife are not the only born again believers in your city…

    And yet every time that this topic is discussed you marginalize the Candlestick…

    You maximise the “lone rangers” and the ones called out by the Lord into “solitude” and yes, the Lord called me out from October 2004 until around March 2010 to a wilderness experience but after what was required was achieved He began to call me back in to believe for something better than I’d ever experienced before which is what I am now – as of the end of last year and especially this year – beginning to experience in fellowship with my brothers and sisters in my city – I don’t agree with every thing which they believe – but there is a unity of purpose, a hunger after the Lord – Praise His Holy Name – I’ve been blessed by them and they by me and that’s just in a few months – Praise the Lord…

    It’s the will which we do or do not have to fellowship in the flesh with others…

    This has nothing to do with the locality of where we meet – in house, a school hall (as we do) or in a “church building” it has to do with the will to submit to the Lord’s instruction to not forsake meeting together – yes, sure He at times calls us to solitude – but surely after that time we’re ready to share and encourage?

    Do you do this Roger in any sort of local congregation? Even if it is just you and your wife and another brother and his wife?

    The impression I get from your many posts is that you do not…

    I’m not apologising for this impression (I’m not saying it is right) – I’m just sharing it…

    Do you believe that it is the Lord’s will to gather together all the born again ones in a city to meet together for fellowship Roger?

    Love in the Lord,


  313. fabakary May 5th 2013

    God bless you Marilyn Crow from that message from the Lord about Love, it blesses me greatly, with many other posts as I woke this morning. Yes that was the issue about Joan w case, it was very difficult for me yesterday ,but I have some strength to endure the inconvenience about her departure , as lighting storm said it is is a freedom and Joy to be with the Lord. God bless you all.

  314. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013


    Thankyou for your encouragement & be blessed. It would not have been easy for you to know about Joan & then to tell us. So thank you for telling us. God be with your dear friend & good night. See you tomorrow.


  315. Glory ~†~ Glory ~ He Reigns May 5th 2013

    Roger (NZ), from HolyHolyHolyLGA

    Thankyou for posting the scenic clip of your homeland. I am partial to the quiet woodlands 3:10-20; they were my first place of meeting with God as a child.

    Bruce Olson’s autobiography, reminded me of accounts from Don Richardson’s books to different cannibal tribes. (Lords of the Earth-Peace Child-Eternity in Their Hearts)

    Olson, slowly adjusted to the Motilone diet, and he began to pick up on the tribe’s ‘tonal language’. – love this concept with God speaking to us as well!

    Looking for God in a hole in the ground, is no more absurd than where many ‘highly civilized people’ in advanced cultures seek to find him. 😀
    Bruchko, may well find it’s way to my reading list.

    He Reigns – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKTqwBetI1I

    Thankyou for sharing.

  316. watchful May 5th 2013

    HolyLGA – before I forget, I just want to mention that where you see “Comfort ye, comfort ye…..” to think about who the Comforter is and why Israel is to receive that double comfort…..;) The paying double for their sins makes sense once we realize that they are carrying intercession on behalf of the nations, in the will of God. Hope that makes sense and is enough to go on, I don’t want to get too far into it at this point.

    fabakary, I also want to thank you for bringing the message about Joan, it must have been a burden for you carrying that and not knowing for certain these past weeks. And Marilyn’s words in Joan’s memory were very sweet. She will be sadly missed, our loss but her gain, as she is with the Lord now.

    Regarding your last post to me, I agree with it and have no argument. It occurs to me that possibly because of different personal needs and different calling/gifts we are/were being taught different things in coming out of the churches…? When I was in the churches I couldn’t see the forest clearly because of the trees, but after I was led out then I began to see the forest and a great many things became much more clear. For me I badly needed to learn that the truth and honesty are not things which we sacrifice on the altar of love, but rather are part of the whole package of love, and I have probably been the worst offender on the planet in that area. Maybe I have yet to hit the right note, I don’t know, but God knows who is my Teacher.

    To others, regarding finding a body of believers to fellowship with, if the Lord would lead me to one I would gladly go. He did bring me to one church for a while, for His purposes, and then He told me to leave just at the point where they were bringing in “soaking” sessions. I am grateful for His care of me, and hope by His grace to continue being led by His Spirit and not by my feelings. When Lakeland broke out I inquired of the Lord concerning it and He brought me here to this website. Recently He renewed to me that this is His will for me to gather here, and so I have renewed my participation here. It certainly has its limitations compared to face-to-face fellowship and talking and praying, but this is His provision which I am grateful for, and His grace is sufficient. I am finding that there is more of the Body participating with their many parts/gifts here than anywhere I have ever seen gathering face-to-face in the churches. Thus I am being built up, as the scripture says. I consider myself to be a half-baked loaf and still a work in progress. The churches are not set up to let the Body parts “practice” and grow, and be of benefit to one another, if they let us do that they would lose their “audience”.

  317. Lightning Storm May 5th 2013

    Act 5:29 NASB
    But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

    The word “assembling” can be MANIFESTED in many forms……it does not have to be an organized congregation in order to take communion, have communion, have fellowship, to testify, rebuke, support, exhort,praise, or worship with other believers.

    Jesus Himself told the believers to “flee to the mountains”.
    He also told the woman at the well that soon there would be NO WORSHIP AT THE TEMPLE OR THE MOUNTAIN……..

    The TEMPLE/TABERNACLE IS WITHIN US and wherever we go on any given day or moment of that day, we SHOULD BE WORSHIPING THE TRINITY.
    So if we are gathered together with 1, 2, 20, or 200………it can be for the GLORY OF GOD……OR it can be for the GLORY OF MAN, depending upon our worship and idols of the heart.

    God has a DESTINY for each individual, and we had better find out the will of God for ourselves and participate in that DESTINY with Him, or we are just SPINNING OUR WHEELS or TREADING WATER in the Kingdom Plan of our God.

  318. Lightning Storm May 5th 2013

    I have received a magazine called “VOICE OF THE MARTYRS” for years now.

    Do you know how many have been murdered for building a church?

    Do people really believe that is what we are called to do by Jesus Christ? Is build a church building?

    I thought we were called to WALK AS JESUS WALKED…TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE in order to bring HIS LIGHT, HIS TRUTH, HIS WAYS to the darkness around us.

    Jesus worshiped His Father in the Garden; Jesus congregated with disciples wherever they were; Jesus had communion in the attic of a house.

    Father does not make “cookie cutter” followers….look at the 12 apostles.

    Mankind makes “cookie cutter” followers…..look at religion and the tower of babel.

  319. Glory ~†~ Glory ~ He Reigns May 5th 2013

    Watchful, from: HolyLGA
    the ‘double portion’ concept in relationship to ‘impartation
    the (passing on, or transference) of spirits/spiritual gifts was my primary concern. The double portion mentioned in Elijah and Elisha, was the only account specifically questioned; although laying on of hands and tongues are mentioned in the NT.

    I will ponder your “double for their sins makes sense once we realize that they are carrying intercession on behalf of the nations” -that there is a wonderful truth here. Maybe searching it in depth at another time. Scripture is so deep and rich. There is so much we don’t fully understand.

    Re: When Lakeland broke out I inquired of the Lord concerning it and He brought me here to this website.

    – We departed way, when the passing of the prophet gift and many of the spirits from Lakeland were being ‘imparted’ on individuals within our group by the leadership. We were leadership, and refused hands, gifts, spirits upon us, warning all to the dangers of this. We too found ourselves on this site. We still have fellowship with others of the Body in homes, etc. He is still teaching us wonderful things from His Word as well.

    Thanks, and Be Blessed In Jesus 🙂

  320. Glory ~†~ Glory ~ He Reigns May 5th 2013

    WATCHFUL, – from: HolyLGA

    re:We still have fellowship with others of the Body in homes, etc. He is still teaching us wonderful things from His Word as well. We have receives many requests to join in more formally in small groups with people we dearly love, though the doctrinal issues may keep us from deeper involvement. We still love and fellowship on a lighter chord of harmony. We consider this wise to not ask them to compromise their convictions, as we are not will in to compromise some of our convictions either. Love them we do!

    I often get very early phone calls to stand in prayer with others on pressing issues. I got a phone call to pray last night at about 11:45. I had been soundly sleeping for a couple of hours. I listened to the request for a time, then heard them saying my name over repeatedly. I had totally fallen back into my deep slumber. We both chortled as she awakened me, and continued our prayers. LOL!

    Sweet Fellowship of The Saints 😀

  321. watchful May 5th 2013

    Amen Lightning Storm, how I hate those slimy tentacles of religion which seeks to claw at a person and bring them back under its domination.

    Lately have been thinking about the wilderness tabernacle and how the Lord is seeking to rebuild it:

    Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

    Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

    It was never the will of God to dwell in a house built by human hands but rather to tabernacle among us. I love where it says, it is the LORD that doeth this. Amen.

    Is it just me or can the current situation with the church be likened not only to David and Saul but also to Jacob and Esau…? I might just take a look at that.

  322. fabakary May 5th 2013

    Amen watchful you wrote:
    “When I was in the churches I couldn’t see the forest clearly because of the trees, but after I was led out then I began to see the forest and a great many things became much more clear.”
    I agree with you there is so much Light given to many outside the denominations etc I have seen so much lights , from many “come-outers “. But I have seen the worst kind of divisions, unforgiveness, carnality , with all the “Lights” . Light without Love can be deceiving , without Love we may receive light but we cannot walk in that Light. It is like knowing mysteries without Charity, that can be dangerous. It does not take anything to received light, within a few second you can know a lot of mysteries through revelation, but to walk in Love God Character of Life must be in us, and the greater Gods life in us the more our Love will about toward him and men.
    You wrote”Is it just me or can the current situation with the church be likened not only to David and Saul but also to Jacob and Esau…? I might just take a look at that.”
    Yes the battle is within, between flesh and spirit, because the Church is birthed first in the spirit and its impact manifest without.

  323. fabakary May 5th 2013

    Dear Brothers and sister in Christ below is a video of Joan w service forwarded to me by one of her friend who received it, from the Son. It is sad that the information is true.
    “For the service, we recorded a little video about mom. Didn’t know if you wanted to see it. Click on the link below and it will take you to You Tube and you can watch it. There is sound, so not sure how your speakers or headphones are.


  324. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 5th 2013


    Thanks so much for all you have done to keep us informed, as well as consoling the family you have contact with. Joan will certainly be missed by all here. This was a wonderful clip, and I feel I know her much better. Indeed, the loss is ours, the gain is heavens! God bless you, Fabakary, and thanks to the family. You are in our prayers.

  325. Barry Schmidt May 5th 2013

    “In Elijah’s day their were many widows in Israel yet the prophet was sent to a widow in Zaraphath” Jesus

    The church is full of those who want a revival- where are those who will BELIEVE for revival?
    The church is full of those who recognize the need for revival- where are those who will BELIEVE God for a revival?

    The church is full of people who know what’s wrong with the church- Where are those who are willing to believe God to right the wrong?

    The church is full of those who are praying for revival and waiting for a revival and hoping for and preaching for a revival- WHERE ARE THISE WHO WILL BELIEVE FOR A REVIVAL????

    Prayer is good but BELIEVING PRAYER is what is required!

    “God will run rough shod over a thousand good, holy and upright men to get to one man who is willing to believe him” Smith Wigglesworth

    “When the son of man returns will he find faith on the earth?” Jesus

    You know O LORD! We believe -help Thou our unbelief!!!
    We have heard the liars promise a revival of the counterfeit.
    Speak to us now of a revival of your making
    And we will believe you this time!

  326. Your word, “To others, regarding finding a body of believers to fellowship with, if the Lord would lead me to one I would gladly go.” and the rest of that paragraph is a good word watchful, I receive that and I hear your heart… I pray Lord that You would led watchful to such a group or even cause her to meet other believers in her city who know of such a group – pull them together Lord, those of kindred spirit in her city in the Name of Jesus… 🙂 Love in the Lord, Andrew

  327. You know O LORD! We believe -help Thou our unbelief!!!
    We have heard the liars promise a revival of the counterfeit.
    Speak to us now of a revival of your making
    And we will believe you this time!

    Yes Lord, that’s the spirit Barry, Love you brother you are a delight to the Lord’s Heart when you speak like this in faith…

    Praise You Jesus… 🙂

  328. Praise the Lord for Joan’s life – I like her… 🙂

    Thank You Jesus that You are with Joan now and that she will never leave Your Presence…

    Hi Joan, I’m sure you’re having a good time up there, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  329. fabakary May 5th 2013

    Glad HHHLA , that you were able to watch it and it was good watch. Some may have to watch it later in there free time as they can save the link. I Trust the Lord will comfort the Family. Lets keep them in our prayers. God bless you all.

  330. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Andrew JH – I have quoted (briefly) parts of my comments for you to re-read. From previous chats that you and I have had here, by email and skype – you will know that I see ALL born-again believers as members of His body, no matter whether ‘in or out.’

    “..I will praise and give all glory to God for taking some born-again believers into a ‘church’ situation, in the same way that I can praise God for those that He takes into a workplace environment to share, or into divers places around the world, amongst other peoples, where they are led to live among and share the truth of Lord Jesus.

    Each one of us, who is regenerated spiritually, who is born-again from above, a believer in, and follower of Lord Jesus – should be listening for, hearing and then obeying the direction and guidance from the Holy Spirit..”

    “..Each time I am asked, and each time this topic is raised – I go back to Him and re-ask the question, check with Him as to why we are outside, and others in a ‘church’ fellowship.

    Each time, I receive the same answer – that His ‘church’ (Ekklesia, body of Christ) is worldwide, a spiritual fellowship not limited to any one building or denomination. I don’t share this for any others to ‘follow me’, only sharing my testimony that is founded on Christ Jesus my Lord and Saviour…”

    “..Yes indeed Marilyn – once (if.?.) we can all get around the ‘us and them’ attitude, and understand that we are all members of His Body – maybe, we will begin to understand the unity that Lord Jesus so desires…”

    “..Yes Andrew J, we have been ‘around the mountain’ on this – please lay it down..

    I am truly pleased for you that you have now found a fellowship to which God has directed you. I trust Almighty God in this for, thank Him and praise Him…”

    “..I fully appreciate and recognise that many are gathered into local fellowships, where mature born-again believers are called and gifted to walk alongside newly regenerated ‘babes in Christ Jesus’ to teach, encourage, support and (hopefully) to point all toward Christ Jesus our risen Lord for His input into each believers life as their individual relationship with Him develops…”

    “..Even in NZ we have met, and walked alongside, some who are repentant, spiritually regenerated, born-again, water baptised, believers without ever going to a church. These ones appreciate sharing with others who accept that God will indeed draw anyone to Himself, no matter who they are or where and how they live.

    I do understand those who cannot accept this truth without a direct revelation from Lord Jesus – I couldn’t until He showed me..”

    “..I can accept all who truly know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, God and King – no matter where they live, or where they fellowship – we are all members of His Body on Earth..

    I pray that all will receive this same understanding and revelation..”

    Andrew, thankyou yes we do know of other born-again believers in this city, and further afield, some of whom we may meet, or share with, on any day of the week.

    In His Love,

  331. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 5th 2013

    Re: It was never the will of God to dwell in a house built by human hands but rather to tabernacle among us. I love where it says, it is the LORD that doeth this. Amen.

    Very nicely put!

    Psalm 113
    3The Lord’s name is to be praised.
    4 The Lord is high above all nations,
    His glory above the heavens.
    5 Who is like the Lord our God,
    Who dwells on high,
    6 Who humbles Himself to behold
    The things that are in the heavens and in the earth?

    Psalm 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does,
    In heaven and in earth,

  332. Roger (NZ) May 5th 2013

    Andrew Strom:
    God is calling us ALL to “Body”..

    A lot of us need to get a whole more enthusiastic about the concept.

    In the love which is Christ Jesus our risen Lord, God, and soon coming King.. may I add a very heartfelt and sincere Amen to this Andrew..


  333. Andrew May 5th 2013

    Glad to hear it, Roger.

    And how do you think God might have us move towards such a thing?

    I have a big problem with people just sitting “waiting for 20 years for it to just ‘happen’ – without doing anything to walk towards it in the Spirit.

    Bless you!


  334. So you’re saying that you support the Candlestick Roger but you’re also aware that there may be times where the Lord calls someone out of an un-removed Candlestick or even out of a removed Candlestick – for whatever reason – to do whatever He needs to do in their lives to make them more like Him?

    This is what I believe, if you believe this then we’re in unity on this one… 🙂

    But I would add, that God’s Heart is always that we would be re-established in a Candlestick – I believe this passionately… 🙂

    If there is none then His Heart would be that we would establish one where we are – as we are called to reproduce spiritually on this earth (in His Image) – to bear much fruit – while we remain here – and the Candlestick is the Testimony of His Image on this earth…

    We both know that the Body is every born again believer on the planet – wherever they are (in a Candlestick or not) – so we’re not in disagreement on that one… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  335. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013

    Thankyou fabakary for posting Joan`s video clip. I have tears in my eyes but a heart full of praise to the Lord for just a glimpse of what He has done in Joan`s life.

    Makes me realise again that each of us is a great story of God`s handiwork. The work in progress as Watchful said & we all have a part in each other`s refining.

    So behind the dozen or so of us down in the depths of this blog, behind each there are dozens more of family, friends & those we meet in life. Hundreds, dear friends, so our encouragement, exhortation & meditation of Him goes out to each other & beyond as God`s Holy Spirit is reaching out & out.

    There are no isolated cells in Christ`s Body for all are joined & `set,` in the Body by the Holy Spirit. I`m with you Watchful, Roger, fabakary, lightning Storm, Ken, Randall, Richard, Averyl, Kevin, Donald, Zululander, Andrew J. Andrew S. AM, Barry, Intercessor,Glory, Holy, Sandra, & so many more.

    His jewels in the furnace of life. Marilyn.

  336. Sorry, i have been away for several days and just getting caught up and have not read all the posts 🙂 Sorry to hear about Joan W, but yet i am rejoicing – to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord – our dear Sister has graduated and is now with the Lord, Praise the Lovely Lord Jesus our glorious Hope. He is coming sooooooooooon.

    Blessings to everyone.

  337. Thank you fabakary for your integrity in all of this.


  338. Marilyn Crow May 5th 2013

    This candlestick interpretation is not scriptural. Andrew J. Horton speaking to Roger said, `We both know that the Body is every born again believer on the planet wherever they are (I agree) in a Candlestick or not.` that last part doesn`t make sense.

    The 7 candlesticks of Revelation represent to whole Body of Christ. (7 meaning completion) The 7 names of the candlesticks as we know were the believers in towns nearby. (Ephesus …)but what the Lord was saying to each did not refer to each situation at the time. One group was not deep into witchcraft & another all being marytred down the road, & then another lukewarm etc.

    The Lord is telling the whole Body of Christ of His overseeing, His care, His pre-eminent Lordship over the centuries, over each & every one of us.

    The Candlesticks are not separate from one another but are a part of one great candlestick with 7 candle holders, as in the temple. That is the context of Rev.1 – 3, Christ the High Priest moving amongst the candles on the one holder tending to their lights,ie. their witness of Him.

    To equate the Candlesticks in Rev. to specific man-made oganisations & public meetings is not right. There would then have to be thousands of candlesticks in Revelation. As I said they represent the whole Body of Christ & Christ`s dealings with people in regard to particular errors which believers still need to overcome today.

    Let`s not separate the Body of Christ. Marilyn.

  339. Marilyn Crow, blessings to you dear friend.

  340. God is the one who owns His Candlesticks and they are His… 🙂

  341. They are not man-made organisations… That is a lie… 🙂

  342. Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks.

    The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:

    and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


  343. SING with me peoples of the LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    FOR i am RICH.
    the monies of donald trump and all the worlds banks
    cannot TOUCH the RICHNESS of my FAITH in CHRIST……….
    MY TREASURE IS CHRIST, HE is my prosperity
    and in all times to be PRAISED.
    SING lambs…………………OUR LORD has given us
    great HOPE and in HIS NAME are we saved
    and in HIM have all reason to have HOPE and JOY abounds.
    SO i sing
    THIS ole world can beat me down
    take all myriches, i care not but for the CROWN
    sing unto the LORD our GOD, who is worthy of all song
    sing, sing……..and praise him all the day long.
    THIS ole world has nuaght for my heart
    and one day soon shall i depart
    when once IN THAT day, whether sleep or awake
    My joy is in HIM , my soul shall he take.
    ON that day, i shall be forever free
    IF I REMAIN in HIM, tis my destiny
    NOW if that dont bring hope
    one is on the worlds dope, riches cares, pleassures etc
    SING with me lambs O GOD……..
    WE of all have HOPE in Him.
    LIFT up the heads and voices in praise
    HE is the keeper of our souls, all our days
    though great darkness be all about
    IN HIM I SEE, IN HIM i shout
    and that is MY STORY……………amen.
    JOY IN THE LORD…………….
    I love you all, and be blessed.

  344. Some great postings being shared here about the
    Body” and I guess also “the Church”. I think we all agree that we can’t put God working with us into any box of conformity. Man loves to do that -control God, control the Holy Spirit. You see it all the time in Sunday church meetings -just when the HS turns up, man quenches. But it is a learning curve, a journey of ‘letting go’, and probably harder for us with the western mindset, as we are conditioned to be proactive, achieve, work hard, rely on self, never show weakness and so on. What alot of work the HS has to do to bring all those ‘false yokes’ down in our life times!

    God speaks to us in dreams and visions -I had a dream some years ago. I was going to an AOG church at the time, which had its inevitable problems. I saw Jesus walk down the street -he went into a house to visit a known kindly man and his family, who supposedly were not Christians and did not go to church. He had lunch with them. While he was walking down the road, the church people were waving to him, trying to get his attention to come to the church. He turned around and I heard him say “Though you do this, or do that in My name I never knew you……………..”

    Sadly we will find many in the ‘visible’ church don’t realise they are not actually saved or acepted by Jesus. In Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s wonderful book called “The Footsteps of the Messiah”, his chapter on the 7 churches of Revelation show that in the Laodicean Church era (1900 onwards) many church goers are actually saved to the doctrines of that particular denomination and not to the saving grace of Christ. They know no better. This is true for today still in those types of churches.

    Another interesting fact relating to the theme of this post -apostasy of many leaders/church groups. It needs to be recognized that although God deals with the ‘visible church’ as one church, as one people of God, the external administration of the church with the preaching of the word, the ordinances and disciplines, only truly benefit the ‘invisible church’ or the elect. While outward professors of religion receive temporary benefits resulting from intellectual insights from the word, pressure to conform to God’s law, the outward influence from a society of family-oriented, moral people, etc., they receive greater damnation on the day of judgment for spurning the great light to which they were exposed under continual Gospel preaching.
    And these are the ones at risk of apostasy, which explains why we see so many in the ‘church’ get constantly taken in by false prophets/teachers/movements. We can’t understand how anyone sitting under the Gospel could be deceived. This group includes many pastors and leaders!

  345. As i see it, the seven Churchs of Rev 2&3 (Candlesticks) were seven physical Church’s at that time and are also “types” from then, right down to today of seven Churchs, in which we are now in the seventh Church (Laodicea)


  346. Some here have pondered why some have left churches.
    ONE of us…………..was KEPT out of churches…………
    When i visited churches the people were always kind and nice.
    SO why could i not stay.
    PONDER on that a bit Barry.
    i was never done wrong by any. JUST heard WRONG doctrine
    and my heart was AFTER TRUTH, not wrong doctrine.
    Tis why i have never joined a church.
    NOT because i dont LONG FOR FELLOWSHIP
    PONDER this a bit barry. My learning came only from the HOLY SPIRIT in the BIBLE. THEN ponder this
    WHY IS MY JOY SO FULL ………………
    i pray this helps many souls.

  347. Hi AM,

    The ‘invisible church’ is the elect… 🙂

    The Candlestick in any location is meant to be all the elect in that location meeting together… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  348. There was a problem with the “Candelsticks” or some/most of them but NONE were removed. Is that not interesting?


    mens doctrines only depress me.
    PONDER poeple………………and consider.
    My heaviness is for the lost, and all who simply wont embrace
    many call on JESUS………….yet many still walk not as HE DID
    not deisre as he desired.
    THAT is simply WHAT WE NEED.
    JESUS. Naught of men, BUT OF GOD
    but i do pray seasoned men to stand and preach the gosple
    and i do pray seasoned men to correct, rebuke, exhort, teach.
    ITS just i have SEEN none, rather i see a mixture of truth with lies
    doctrine with falshood, GODS WORD, with mens philospphies
    WHICH are leading masses to conform to the world.
    THAT brings sadness, and i know that any man
    could have the JOY i do IN THE LORD
    if onlly, they would truly COME TO JESUS
    not the one preached in many churches
    but the ONE THE BIBLE TELLS US OF, and HIS SPIRIT reveals.
    amen. That is why i keep out of churches.
    STILL i am longing for fellowship, but i wont go
    and sit under a teacher, and then have one see me
    and think well if randalls there it must be OKAY.
    and for US who YEARN for TRUTH and NOTHING BUT TRUTH.
    no mixing, no opinions………..JUST TRUTH.
    NO man, woman, child, group will EVER GROW in mixture
    they will ONLY LEAVE, or fall away.
    TRUTH will grow, and good doctrine will grow us up into maturity.
    but a mixture will only KILL. amen.

  350. Yes Ken, Jesus rebukes us so that we can be more fruitful, His rebukes were redemptive, Even the one about enduring to the end – this is what makes our calling and election sure – enduring until the end… Love in the Lord, Andrew

  351. Barry Schmidt May 5th 2013

    Re: Candletsicks
    I remember in Seminary (mine wasn’t a Cemetery lol) they taught us a critical principle of Bible interpretation that all of the church fathers agreed to and that was that we must always interpret Scripture in the light of first of with the interpretaion that is stated and then in the light of its original context- historically, culturally, situationally and linguistically and LASTLY ( and only if the text itself can obviously be interpreted and applied) to today’s setting and culture.
    Every and any other further interpretation is NOT AUTHORITATIVE NOR GUARANTEED TO BE INSPIRED but is merely subjective ( it may or may not be what it means).

    So here we go.
    1. The candles sticks are interpreted by the text itself explicitly “the seven candlesticks ( lamp stands NASB) are the seven churches ”
    It’s that simple- the candlesticks , according to Jesus own interaction of the “mystery” is that the candlesticks are literally the seven churches of the province of Asia Minor – (Ehpesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philidelphia and Laodocea).

    2. To say that they are anything more than that is MERE SUBJECTIVE SPECULATION because the only interpretation authorized by Jesus own explanation is that the 7 candle sticks are those 7 local congregations of Johns day.

    3. That does not mean that the letters are not relevant to us or to any other age nor does it mean that the principles taught to those messages to those 7 churches are not in any way applicable to us today.
    4 To assign other (extra biblical) meanings to the candlesticks and to begin to make an entire theology of ecclesiology ( doctrines concerning the church) is a very suspect way to handle the Scriptures. This allegorizing of the seven church passage was started by the heretical teachings of William Brahnam and was popularized by his followers and became almost universally accepted by popular charismatic leaders of the 1980’s and 90’s.
    But this allegorized interpeation ( ie seven churches representing 7 church ages or 7 as the universal global church) had no acceptance from any of the church fathers or evangelical revivalist scholars of previous centuries.

  352. After nearly seven years of reading ONLY the bible, hours daily
    by HIS grace, and hoping and praying for men to stand and preach the gosple…………
    Mayhaps its TIME I DO SOMETHING.
    I keep thinking…………..if many aint
    IF so………………..ALL PRAY FOR ME
    for i will NEED both the SUPPLY OF THE SPIRIT
    and all yalls prayers…………
    WE work…………….as ONE in CHRIST.

  353. Though i read revelations often.
    i have found the MOST oppossing
    is to the simple doctrine i bring.
    which tells of godliness with contentment
    of joying in GODS SALVATION
    of reading the bible.
    OF living the sermon on the mount and not
    changing parts to suit lifestlyes
    ON the simple grounds of the gosple i preach
    anyone here WONDER why that is…………..

  354. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    Andrew S – thankyou my friend, for your reply 🙂

    You ask: And how do you think God might have us move towards such a thing?

    I have a big problem with people just sitting “waiting for 20 years for it to just ‘happen’ – without doing anything to walk towards it in the Spirit.

    Like you I am concerned with anyone who would wait for ‘something’ – and neither do or achieve anything. I believe that Lord Jesus desires we each press into Him, asking Him for His Will in our life – so that at the very least, we may develop that individual personal relationship with Him.

    Personally, the only ‘something’ I am looking forward to is His return. My focus is on Christ Jesus our Lord, and what He would have me do now, on a daily basis – that is my continual prayer.

    I know that you know and agree, that each one of us who is spiritually regenerated, a born-again believer – is now a member of His Body, His ekklesia, His worldwide church. My understanding is that when we submit and surrender to His will and Lordship in our individual life, then He may and will use us for His work as He chooses.

    In all sincerity Andrew – I see that God is continually moving toward establishing His complete Body, and has been since Jesus time on Earth, no matter what persecution and hindrance the enemy uses.

    Sincerely, in His love,

  355. I have found SIMPLE LOVE OF THE TRUTH
    is truly rejected by any whose whole heart is NOT on the LORD.
    though they claim CHRIST
    yet change HIS WORDS………..
    IF WE LOVE TRUTH…………….why would we alter HIS WORDS.
    and NOT RATHER, as children………simply OBEY THEM.
    an example a man wanted to remarry,
    he was already a believer, had left his wife
    and i told him WHAT JESUS SAID.
    yall know what he said next……….
    YEAH BUT GOD gives grace.
    cause its sin.
    ADULTERY IS SIN………………….
    And when does GOD GIVE GRACE
    to SIN……………….
    simple questions i ask…………..yet
    many would be amazed at the simple HATE i get back.
    they get drawn to me by my LOVE of the gosple
    YET when its time to correct………….they leave hating me.
    WHY is that. I only love them and want them to OBEY CHRIST.
    whom they claim they follow. YET when it boils down to what
    THEY DESIRE…………welll, then they say GOD GIVES GRACE
    and YET CONDMEN any not LIKE THEM.
    i suggest, exhort, and strongly urge us GO BACK TO JUST
    the BIBLE………….cause we sure aint heraing JESUS WORDS
    and the LIVING of them in many places.

  356. HEY SANDRA…………..
    IF a man changes JESUS WORDS
    or does he love and serve HIMSELF………
    If a man keeps all of JESUS sayings YET cant KEEP one
    did he ever LOVE THE TRUTH……….
    or simply did he not desire those evils
    yet when it came time to the evil he did desire
    these are very simple questions……….
    if we cant FOLLOW HIM , HIS EVERY WORD
    and change certain parts which fit what we like
    just served our self god, and justified our self god
    in other areas.
    ARe things becoming clearer…………….
    one may love money………….he can easliy put down all other things, lust of woman, beer, etc
    BUT cant let go of love of money
    DID he ever serve CHRIST…………………NO.
    let us PONDER this a bit. amen.

    another example of justifying ones sin
    is even though they do good things
    YET justify why they can kill an enemy
    WELL, i say they are still in SIN.
    HE WHO LIVES by the SWORD dies by the sword.
    IT aint difficult. JUST READ JESUS WORDS
    JESUS WORDS, and not to jusify ANY ACTION
    which opposes HIS TEACHINGS and

  358. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 6th 2013

    Randall Lowrey,

    RE: SING with me peoples of the LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    FOR i am RICH.
    the monies of donald trump and all the worlds banks
    cannot TOUCH the RICHNESS of my FAITH in CHRIST……….
    MY TREASURE IS CHRIST, HE is my prosperity
    and in all times to be PRAISED.


    PRAISE HIM! I LOVE WHAT YOU POSTED! This link below is for you! He lived to be 104 years, both rich and wise! Enjoy!

    Randall, you keep singing your song ! The gospel is above all rubies and gold and a song the world needs to hear us sing. Thankyou!


  359. the lesson above was to our gun toters who justfiy
    why we can KILL anyone………
    You all wont enter into everlasting life if you do this.
    LOVE must be your GUIDE
    and i wont have no mans blood upon my hands.
    THE LOVE OF CHRIST comples we warn
    and keep warning. WALK as DID JESUS.
    that is TRUTH. walk as DID JESUS.

  360. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    Andrew J.H. – Your reply to me speaks of ‘candlestick’, and I don’t understand your use of this term, and I see that others have replied/commented further on that.

    So you’re saying that you support the Candlestick Roger but you’re also aware that there may be times where the Lord calls someone out of an un-removed Candlestick or even out of a removed Candlestick – for whatever reason – to do whatever He needs to do in their lives to make them more like Him?

    Andrew J – If you are asking in the above quote whether I believe that Almighty God will ‘call us out’ of fellowship with other people for a short time, so that we may turn to Him for His input, guidance, discipling, refining purifying, as He sees the need – then yes, I agree.

    If you are also saying (which I haven’t quoted) that His desire is that we be in fellowship with other born-again believers, then yes I agree also.

    You see, what comes across time and again, is that an assumption is made that those who are outside of a local church, are also out of fellowship with other believers – which in my experience is not the case.

    When you were ‘out’ were you also ‘alone’ for all that period…? From our previous sharing at a personal level during the time that I have known you, I know the answer is no – you met, and shared, with other born-again believers. Now, you have been led back into a more closely knit fellowship with others than you had before. Praise God 🙂

  361. i hear and see so many different versions of revelatoins
    but often in the same ones on other sights
    they often reject the teaching of JESUS
    and this is why many FAIL. and will not inherit everlasting life.
    WALK AS DID JESUS. GO and learn anew
    then read the epsitels to churches.
    and to the many who walk not according to the law upon our heart
    LET US relearn in TRUTH and NEWNESS OF LIFE
    what JESUS said and SPOKE and how he LIVED and WALKED.
    THEN GO YE and do likewise.
    very simple message. YET THE MOST hated by far,
    and mainly by church going peple………..
    i love you all. i pray for us all. AMEN.

  362. 4 To assign other (extra biblical) meanings to the candlesticks and to begin to make an entire theology of ecclesiology ( doctrines concerning the church) is a very suspect way to handle the Scriptures. This allegorizing of the seven church passage was started by the heretical teachings of William Brahnam and was popularized by his followers and became almost universally accepted by popular charismatic leaders of the 1980′s and 90′s.
    But this allegorized interpeation ( ie seven churches representing 7 church ages or 7 as the universal global church) had no acceptance from any of the church fathers or evangelical revivalist scholars of previous centuries.

    Amen to that Barry… 🙂

    Love in the Lord,


  363. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013

    Probably the best article I have read in ten years is in the link I have posted below. It is a scathing indictment of the individualistic mindset in most believers today.

    I think the most susceptible we will ever be to deception is not from being under preaching that is a. Is true of truth and error but in removing ourselves and isolating ourselves ALTOGETHER from the church?
    Who then are we accountable to?
    Who then will correct us when we THINK we are right but are deeply deceived?
    WHO THEN becomes the authority on all things of the faith? ME, MYSELF AND I!!!!
    The Bible clearly teaches that no ONE person has a handle on all of the faith. Ephesians 4, I Timothy, Titus and Hebrews 13 all call for PLURALITY OF LEADERSHIP and that EVERY BELIEVER NEEDS THE WHOLE CHURCH.

    Anyways read this article and tell me you still want to remain individually independent from the local church.
    Separation is always MONASTIC and monasticism has no foundation in New Testament ecclesiology.


    CAUSE I AINT…………
    However i aint saying some still aint around the world.
    JUST not any i have walked into.
    i aint looking for perfect people
    JUST PERFECT DOCTRINE, which all perfect the people
    of CHRIST.
    and that i just aint found, no, not even close.

  365. When you were ‘out’ were you also ‘alone’ for all that period…? From our previous sharing at a personal level during the time that I have known you, I know the answer is no – you met, and shared, with other born-again believers. Now, you have been led back into a more closely knit fellowship with others than you had before. Praise God 🙂

    During the dates I mentioned Roger – from October 2004 to March 2010 – I really was “out of fellowship” with other believers – I had my wife, our small children and one or two other close Christian friends – but really it was a “detox” time for me…

    I was already “on my way out” of the wilderness when I met you brother… 🙂

    Love you,


  366. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013
  367. do be careful people
    theres a teaching going round
    and its trying to guilt trip many into gonig back into
    churches. BUT ITS ROOTS are of new age
    and gatherings to get people under control
    to conform them to the world.
    JUST be on gaurd against that as well.
    one of you all has a small congregation.
    and from what i could tell
    it seemed you loved the LORD and so did they.
    ONLY i forget who it was.
    was it donald………….i think it was 12 people or so.
    i had commented to this person a while back on this site.
    i believe they lived up north, i think canada………
    this group i would gladly MEET with.

  368. anyone who simpley wants to meet
    and just live and walk as did CHRIST
    and follow his teachings
    gets a hearty amen from me.
    LET us focus on that………….and be about the gosple.
    and its FURTHERANCE. amen. Roger, be BLESSED
    Rogers heart is after the LORD.
    and the LORD is working on him and all who LOVE the LORD.

  369. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    “..one or two other close Christian friends..”

    Andrew J. – Praise God, this is my point, you were not alone.

  370. think the most susceptible we will ever be to deception is not from being under preaching that is a. Is true of truth and error but in removing ourselves and isolating ourselves ALTOGETHER from the church?
    Who then are we accountable to?
    Who then will correct us when we THINK we are right but are deeply deceived?
    WHO THEN becomes the authority on all things of the faith? ME, MYSELF AND I!!!!
    The Bible clearly teaches that no ONE person has a handle on all of the faith. Ephesians 4, I Timothy, Titus and Hebrews 13 all call for PLURALITY OF LEADERSHIP and that EVERY BELIEVER NEEDS THE WHOLE CHURCH.
    Barry is right on this………….
    SO LONG as we find a church THAT TEACHES as did the apostels and Christ
    but if one dont……………i aint going to have THEIR WORDS
    eat as does a chancor of the soul
    i will do as PAUL SAID
    FLEE from it. BARRY………..you brought those words
    SO now i ask you…………
    FIND ME A CHURCH. do be wise. IT MUST BE
    PURE DOCTRINE………..no mixing.
    OR i shant go in it, lest to respectfully warn the elders.
    BARRY……………..FIND US A CHURCH……………

  371. The Lord always gives us what we need Roger, I think we’re in agreement now though so we should move on… 🙂

    I pray Father that You would put Your desire in Roger to be one with all the elect in his city and to meet with them as and when You direct…

    Bring them to him and bring him to them in Jesus Name, I pray this also for each one posting here who is one of Your elect who presently doesn’t belong to a local congregation of Your elect – a Candlestick – in Jesus Mighty Name – link us all together all around the world Lord in Jesus Mighty Name – and let the cords of love never be broken until we meet You in the air at Your Return – Praise You Jesus – Love You Lord – You are our Provider and You are our Soon and Coming King…

    Love You Jesus…

    Praise You Lord…

    Thank You Father…

    Thank You Holy Spirit…

    Glorify Your Name – Lord – in all the earth…

  372. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    Monastic is John the Baptist!
    Monastic is Paul for 14 years after he was born again.
    Monastic is many of the prophets’ lives.

    I certainly do not hear these “out of church” people stating they are leading MONASTIC lives.

    Either we are instructed individually by the Holy Spirit, or we interpret and obey the scriptures by our flesh/our carnal minds.

    You can’t have it both ways….or God calls you a DOUBLE MINDED MAN.

    As I said before, are we FOLLOWING JESUS…THE LIVING WORD?

    Jesus did not hook into a congregation……He wandered according to the instructions of His Father and the Holy Spirit……along with 12 regular friends; His mother; and a sibling or two.

    Did Jesus VISIT congregations of believers? YES
    Did the Apostles VISIT congregations of believers? YES
    Were they told by the Holy Spirit to stay there permanently? NO

    If you read carefully, you will see that the believers were being “shifted” on a regular basis. From place to place….teacher to teacher.

    My view of the God of the bible from Genesis to Revelation is that He is the ONE who DISPERSES PEOPLE INTO THE WORLD for the sake of His Kingdom.

    For all you know, the “out of church” people are the missionaries and the evangelists of today…….and the “in church” people are degrading the calling placed upon them.

    As long as EITHER TYPE OF BELIEVER can say with a CLEAR CONSCIENCE, that the LORD TOLD ME TO BE WHERE I AM……..then I am satisfied to leave God to be God in EVERY PERSON’s life.

    The word UNITY does not mean “cookie cutter” lives.
    It means to PARTICIPATE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT in the work of the Kingdom………each fulfilling their destiny that is designed for them by God. Therefore, bringing the ENTIRE KINGDOM OF GOD INTO UNITY AND CONFORMITY TO THE WILL OF GOD.

  373. In a Candlestick there are Elders, there are Apostles, Prophets, Pastors & Teachers and all the gifts mentioned in scripture are to operate – as the scriptures teach us…

    The Evangelists go out into the world to bring in those who are saved from out of the world into the Candlestick…

    If we don’t see this happening then we should pray…

    We shouldn’t think that this is someone else’s problem…

    If we can see that it’s not happening then that is our commission to do something about it…

    That is our call to intercession…

    Jesus intercedes all day – if we want to know Jesus – so should we be…

    Love in the Lord,


  374. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    Randall – Amen my friend, I thank God that He continues to work on, and in, me..

  375. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    The scriptures do not talk about filling up churches with people.

    The scriptures talk about testifying to the world of God’s Kingdom plan and the role that Jesus Christ plays in that Kingdom plan.
    The scripture talks about His Kingdom people being the Light and the Salt in the world, bringing His Presence and His Goodness into the darkness of the world.

    We are INDIVIDUALS who have the LIGHT OF GOD within us. (as long as it is not covered up with a bushel of flesh!)

    Jesus talks about entering into the KINGDOM OF GOD…His disciples teach the KINGDOM OF GOD….We are to TESTIFY TO THE THINGS OF GOD AND THE THINGS OF HIS KINGDOM.


    Did every congregation in the NT have a 5 fold ministry?
    If they did, then why did the Apostles have to visit or write letters to the congregations?

    Man is now determining what is “needed”, when its needed, and where its needed……instead of letting GOD BE GOD……..Man has to have control and like the Judaizers in the NT, Man likes to put God in a box so they can “understand” Him and control the circumstances, situations, and the people around them.

    Heaven help the people who USURP the role of the Holy Spirit in other people’s lives!

  376. As usual Lightning Storm you oppose the word of God…

    We are to disciple all the nations, we are to baptise all the nations, we are to teach all the nations everything which Jesus commanded us, Jesus Himself spoke to Paul and commissioned Paul to write what He wrote in holy scripture – about the formation of the local congregations (Candlesticks) – and Paul was obedient to the heavenly vision…

    He established Candlesticks in every place and set in order, Order as to how they should function – not an individualistic free for all…

    Why do you resist the Holy Spirit Lightning Storm?

  377. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    Show me those scriptures Andrew J Horton.
    The scriptures that use the terms you are quoting.

    “forming local congregations”
    “establishing candlesticks”

  378. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    You call being under the authoritative instructions of the Holy Spirit which are different from the instructions given to you by the Holy Spirit, “A FREE FOR ALL”?

    As you know from your intense study of the scriptures, Peter was told, by the Holy Spirit, to do something DIFFERENT from the rest of the Apostles……

    Paul was told, by the Holy Spirit, to do something different from the rest of the Apostles….

    Perhaps, You do not have has much CONFIDENCE AND TRUST in the ABILITY AND KEEPING POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in people’s lives as we all should have?

  379. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013

    You fellas all live in same city you should get together- practice the ordinances together and have a team leadership. You’d have a great church there. Who knows what God would do to add to your number like minded folk.

  380. Andrew May 6th 2013

    Andrew J is right.

    The true Body is a “gathering” where all the gifts and ministries can impart and join together to be “Body”.

    The true church is not supposed to be “invisible” – but VERY VISABLE in every locality.

    This is what Scripture clearly shows.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  381. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013

    Lightning- I hear ya Bro but the church is the fullness of the Spirit corporately. Even if one man is completely filled with the Spirit and obedient to all he knows HE STILL ONLY HAS A SMALL PORTION OF THE TRUTH AND THE CORPORATE FULLNESS FOUND IN THE CHURCH.

    And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22, 23 NASB)

    Not only that but God gave the church the fivefold NOT THE ONEFOLD for a reason. Because relationships are what salvation is all about . Salvation is entering into a holy and loving dependant relationship with God and the church.

    To God and His redemptive plan of salvation the church is not merely an expedient that we can take it or leave it. To god our relationship with the is the end of our salvation

  382. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    I agree Andrew Strom.

    What I don’t agree is that it MUST BE WITHIN THE SAME CONGREGATION.

    What I don’t agree is that it MUST INCLUDE people from a 4-walled church only.

    The Holy Spirit uses WHOM He pleases, WHEN He pleases, and HOW He pleases.

    The Holy Spirit is not TIED to a group of individuals calling themselves a “church”.

    The Holy Spirit is TIED to a group of individuals who are FULLY SURRENDERED to the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS A WHOLE.

    This is not an individual “free for all”…..This is CO-OPERATING with something LARGER AND GREATER than a local 4-wall congregation.

  383. I am not afraid of your words Lightning Storm – I can see right through you… You are opposing Godly Authority – you always have – nothing has changed…

    For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. (Titus 1:5-9 NASB)

    And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28 NASB)

    The devil opposes Godly Authority and knows that if this were to be established his kingdom would be destroyed – which is what Jesus came to do – destroy the words of the devil…

    I have had enough of your opposition…

    It is time for you to decide – will you submit yourself therefore to God or will you not?

    He asks you to submit to your leaders…

    Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17 NASB)

    Who has the Holy Spirit shown you are your leaders Lightning Storm? Have you submitted to them?

  384. Correction: destroy the works of the devil…

  385. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013

    The church is the body of Christ. It is inconceivable that we would EVER EXPECT OR ASK any one part of our physical body to be separated from our body for any reason. If we think we can separate ourselves from the church we have a very incomplete theology of what the church REALLY IS – the church is not merely LIKE A BODY – It IS THE BODY OF CHRIST!

    And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22, 23 NASB)

  386. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    Andrew J Horton, I believe I have said this before.

    When people can’t find the scriptures to back up their personal doctrines, they resort to PERSONAL ATTACKS.

    Where are the scriptures that I asked you to produce for me?

  387. You are in error Lightning Storm – I have been very patient with you for a number of years (2010 until the present time) – and now I will not be communicating with you any further…

    Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11 NASB)

    God have mercy on your soul…

  388. Barry Schmidt May 6th 2013

    We can build a fortress around ourselves and it may protect us but remember this: . The same wall that protects us also keeps out the supply of love that we need to survive.
    Isolating ourselves from the church may protect us from every virus and illness the church is carrying but we will also be shit out from much of Gods love since Gods love NEVER COMES TO US ONLY BY HIS SPIRIT DIRECTLY BUT THROUGH HIS BODY.

    In fact one time The Lord told me this: “I come to you directly with only 10% of my love, power and blessing directly. But the other 90% of my love, truth, blessings and power I give you through my body My church.”

    Brother Lightning- you are living on a 10% of All That God has for you.

    Therefore listen to what the Holy Spirit says to you:

    ” You say, ‘ I am rich and I have need of nothing and no one but you do not realize that you are wretched and pitiful and malnourished. “

  389. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    Barry….you are mis-informed.

    I am not an “out of church” person. And I do not agree with your statement that God gives 90% of His Love to me through other people.

    God has given HIS ENTIRE TRINITY TO LIVE WITHIN little ole me and little ole you.

    God is COMPLETE LOVE….100% LOVE.

    If someone does not enjoy the FULLNESS OF GOD’s LOVE, it is because of their UNBELIEF and their OWN LACK OF ABSOLUTE SURRENDER to HIS Presence and Authority.

    I go where the Holy Spirit leads me, Barry. It makes no difference to me…..it is HIS KINGDOM, He can RULE IT as He wishes……He can RULE me as He wishes.

    The opinions of men are like BELLY BUTTONS….everyone has one and they are absolutely worthless after BIRTH.

  390. Barry…………goodness
    where do you come up with this stuff?
    ten percent and ninety.
    things like this are scaring the children.
    and you wonder why some marvel at the things you say.
    the apostels TAUGHT RIGHTLY.
    thus PEOPLE were to gather with GODLY MEN
    and learn.
    What worries me…………is why would you, or any
    want to send children back to the wolves,
    is beyond me. DO you correct false doctrine in your church.
    IF there is any? IF NOT you are GUILTY before GOD and men
    for not doing so. YOU a man, and apparently
    ordained..? HOW can a ordained man of GOD
    tell sheep to go into a place where there is ANY TYPE of false doctrine. Barry. this makes no sense
    DOnt you know many dont or are not planted in doctrine.
    THUS the lil leaven can harm people.
    ANY CHURCH , and pay attention to these next words,
    and teach PURE DOCTRINE. I aint going into it
    lest i am led of GOD to go in and start winning souls and
    correcting doctrine. NOW if that be the case THEN AMEN.
    BUT to sit in or under a congregation who teaches mixed
    doctrine. NEVER. and i will NOT and bodly refuse to let
    any unlearned see me sit in a place, and then think
    it OKAY cause i sat in it. WE gotta be wise.
    SO i ask HAVE you found that church
    where the LEADERS, not the peoples, BUT THE LEADERS
    are teaching pure unrebukable, holy doctrine.
    AND DONT say this cant be done.
    and strong reading in the word and doctrine.
    and i am but a lil man. SO if i could do it…….WHY DONT THEY?
    Barry, are you a pastor , deacon , elder, bishop, etc OF your church. THEN CORRECT ANY AND ALL DOCTRINE
    or its ON YOU. i love you barry. I aint attacking and i aint
    saying you evil. I am simlpy saying the TIME to CORRECT is ASAP aka NOW, not tomorrow, NOW.
    Do you see men and women in your church, and they aint living right. THEN CORRECT quickly and PUT the FEAR of GOD in them. TEACH the GOODNESS and SEVERITY OF GOD.
    Its easy to try and get everyone in a church……..
    but my question still remains……….or tell me some teachers you know and send me some links ………….
    if you want to help me, do that.

  391. GaryB May 6th 2013

    Roger (NZ)

    Thanks for the video brother it was a blessing to see that area of the world.


  392. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    GaryB – my pleasure 🙂

  393. To all.
    THE FIRST DAY, MOMENT GOD gave me Grace
    nigh seven years ago …….
    and i was BURIED DEEP in the BIBLE to seek out
    what GOD has said, and to learn of HIM.
    I didnt turn tbn off, because i dont love people
    and i didnt try different churches and leave because i dont love people.
    I LEFT and turned TBN OFF, because it was vexation of spirit
    to see this junk they teach and preach.
    NOW, some want to send the lambs back to this…………..
    WHAT DEPRESSION and utter sadness.
    MY HEAVINESS is of mens trash and utter junk that comes out of pulpits, and tbn of america.
    all i see is money this and money that
    and how you can be the best YOU five steps etc.
    and its all jUNK.
    LONG before ole rick warren showed his true colors
    i knew he was false, yet many did not
    though some through grace are coming OUT.
    why did they not……………because mixing truth and wordliness
    can be very deceptive to the unlearned.
    And some of us want to send lambs back into the pit of these wolves.
    I would sooner die than to lead any astray. DIE, dead, gone.
    YET one says…………..its okay,,to go back in.
    NO IT AINT. ANY here who has ears to hear……….
    STAY as you are, and FIND LIKEMINDED men and women to gather with. OR if the SPRIIT LEADS
    go in and WARN these churches of all ungodliness.
    not these oh we cant say this or that sensual types of today.
    DOCTRINE UP IN CHRIST, and get that WHIP
    of TRUTH and HOLINESS and warn them to cease
    all ungodliness in them churches……..OR STAY OUT.
    I have no business in a church that teaches falsehoods
    LEST i am going in to warn and rebuke and do all to get
    them OUT of any type of false doctrine.
    and THE TIME well MAY be soon for me to do just that.
    BARRY………….would you pray about this
    and see if maybe the two of us can go in and start warning men back into the bible, and good HOLY DOCTRINE.
    maybe, just maybe that is why we all met.
    TO actually GO out and warn, and do all in CHRIST.
    i do agree with both BARRY and andrew
    about the NEED of the body and the need of the five fold
    ministry………..BUT barry NOT about sending
    sheep back in under any type of false teaching. ON that i simply cannot agree with you. be blessed.

  394. Barry isn’t saying that Randall, “sending sheep back in under any type of false teaching”, Love in the Lord brother, Andrew

  395. Barry is saying that we grow and get our rough edges “chipped off” in face to face, real and literal fellowship with other believers under the Authority of God…

    Some of us unfortunately have never experienced this so they don’t know what we’re talking about when we do…

    I have experienced it and it is pure joy – once I surrendered under the leader of our Prophetic Intercessors group here in Christchurch and also under the leader of the Local Fellowship I attend here in Christchurch – because the Holy Spirit specifically told me to – yes, I just said that – everything has started to come into place for me – I am underneath but I have power underneath to pray and see things happen with no human intervention…

    This is our power – direct to the Throne – but under Authority as He directs us…

    Love in the Lord,


  396. I have also submitted to Andrew Strom as the leader of this website – because the Lord told me to – and I support Andrew from underneath in what he is trying to achieve here… Love in the Lord, Andrew

  397. We have some men of SOLID truth here on this site.
    Though i dont yet know you all well enough,
    nor have heard all that you teach.
    SOME here are defintely wanting TRUTH for all the right
    ROGER…………..i have known for a bit.
    and have seen MUCH truth in Him.
    the others i dont know as well. Donald appears from what i see
    to know much truth and desires to follow Christ.
    NOW if i dont name a name it dont mean your ungodly,
    it means i dont know enough yet to make a fair statement.
    Andrew appears to want to serve the LORD
    i dont really know much about him,
    our lady watchful, is wanting and desiring truth.
    this i have seen in private emails.
    Gary, seems to be okay, but i have not read all he writes.
    and dont think i am judging any man, i dont even judge me.
    but i am TESTING ALL that i hear and that is a GOOD THING.
    I hope you all test all i do or say. This way
    we can quickly correct one another and help one another.
    Basically though anyone who stands firm on JESUS sermon on the mount of OLIVES…………..and is not a hearer only
    but a DOER of this…………..THAT MAN IS BLESSED.
    but for any who twist his words…………….beware
    lest at the end…………..YOU FIND HIS WORD your JUDGE.
    DID we follow JESUS and HIS WORDS
    or did we bend a lil here and there.
    MY advice…………..SIMPLY DO as JESUS said do
    and DONT DO what he said NOT TO DO.
    and GET HEAVILY in the bible, and be ready to give a
    good word to all in need. and tell of the mercy of GOD
    JESUS…………our HOPE, savoir, salvation, and all in all.
    TO THE LORD be the glory amen.

  398. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    Randal Lowery–
    are you saying that killing another person is the unforgivable sin?

  399. one GOOD thing i see in andrew
    is HOW he knows to not resist any evil persecutions,
    but simply to pray for all who persecute us
    to love even our enemies and desire their repentance.
    ANDREW is RIGHT on the mark on this.
    and this is a BIG ONE to be on the mark about.
    cause the truth is……….we simply aint going to know it all.
    BUT WHAT we did unto OTHERS………………..
    IS A MAJOR, MAJOR and of dire necessity to get this RIGHT.
    WHAT we do unto men………………we did unto CHRIST.
    and pards…………….THIS IS TRUTH.
    in this is the fullfillment.
    and to love our neighbor as our selves.
    IF a man dont know this……….or teaches
    contrary in any way to this………..I dont care what he thinks he knows, or how well he can quaote a scrip.
    Be blessed.

  400. Zululander May 6th 2013

    Been away & read some posts.
    Well said Andrew J & Barry.
    Someone said they don’t want a perfect church but they want perfect doctrine.
    Firstly there in no church with perfect doctrine & if there was you wouldn’t recognise it. Why? Because your doctrine isn’t perfect.
    What you are actually looking for is a church that preaches the doctrine you believe. Start you own church brother.
    I will not downplay the importance of doctrine but we use this thing to beat each other up & do our own thing.
    When the dogs fight, let a rabbit loose, the fight stops & the chase is on.
    Trouble with church is the inward focus & no vision for good works. Take a concordance & see how many time the Lord Jesus tells us to get on with good works. No one can argue that doctrine.
    Be Blesed

  401. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    You seem very adamant concerning not going anywhere near any church that preaches any false doctrines. 100% pure truth or stay away.

    Please let me repeat a short testimony–

    I myself was raised Mennonite (very dry), accepted Christ as savior in a Baptist church (sinner’s prayer), received the Holy Spirit in a non-denominational ministry (that was at its time the most prosperity driven ministry in existence), since then I have been in prosperity movements, drunkenness churches (though I did not agree with it) and many others that I found to have serious problems.
    Through all this God was teaching me.
    So, God was there, in all these ministries, because I was there seeking Him and He was there to be found. He later led me out, but nevertheless, He was there for me.

    Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

    God is looking at the heart of people, not the church they currently attend. God can reach many in these churches without you, me or Barry going in like the gospel police and blasting them with the truth.

  402. Zululander May 6th 2013

    I’ve been away in mourning. Sharks (SA) were beaten by bottom of the log Highlanders (NZ) Can’t believe it!!!!

  403. Kevin May 6th 2013

    The same old debates and judgments over peoples circumstances , with out ever really acknowledging what others are trying to share.

    I don’t believe any true follower of Lord Jesus Christ does not want fellowship with other true followers.

    The establishment of the fivefold ministries under the authority of Lord Jesus Christ requires God called servants, not fill in voluntaries .

    This web site acknowledges and points out false leaders as does the written word of God.

    In the vacuum , absence, of a local assembly of God called 5 fold ministry, believers have to trust in Lord Jesus Christ to direct them in ways that keep them growing in Him.

    In fact the strength of His Body it by through the connection of all the Body parts to Him , the head.

    So even under a God called and established 5 fold ministry meeting , the different parts of the body are all called to walk in personal relationship to the Head of the Body, Lord Jesus Christ.

    Where I believe much of the judgment and misunderstanding comes from, is that in the power vacuum , some seek to try and build the church, where as others look for where and how Christ is building His church.

    The ones looking for the signs of the Master doing the building wont easily fellowship with the ones they perceive as doing the building .

    We all know that in the presence and power of the real Lord Jesus Christ , His body is bought together in spirit and truth.

    So lets all lay down the judgments and manipulation that tend to flourish in the power vacuum that exists in many western countries.

    Let us all in our way according to who we are in Christ seek the restoration of His true and visible church.


  404. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    I might add this,
    It is in many, actually most of these churches that most people are introduced and make their initial commitment to Jesus as Lord. Through evangelistic ministries based in these churches and outreaches by these churches. Perhaps even by the TV evangelists also. I am one of these, I would guess most others posting here are also. So these churches are not a total dead end for anyone attending.
    I repeat the scripture…

    Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

  405. Kevin May 6th 2013


    Some seek to gather and assemble and appoint the 5 fold ministries to bring about revival , and do this believing that this is confirmed in prayer and vision from our Lord .

    Others believe that our Lord is the one who builds His church, so they look for the ones who they believe are called of God and show the evidence of the calling.

    Others withdraw to the safety of seeking only after our Lord as they have lost trust through false leaders.

    None of us can bully or manipulate others into embracing our view of the situation.

    In the case of a power vacuum, we all need to be patient and keep looking to our Lord , for it is only through Him , the Head of His Body , that the parts will be bought into unity and understanding of each other.

  406. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    For those of us who are ‘Out of Church”, the first thing we must do is to pray for the truth to be heard by those who are in these churches. the second thing is to be prepared to minister to those who the Lord Jesus touches and makes them uneasy where they are. Like myself, they will begin to wonder why things do not seem right. We need to be there for them when God leads them out, so they don’t have to go through the wilderness experience like many of us have had to.

  407. Andrew May 6th 2013

    Just been reading some thoughtful articles on “Individualism” and the modern believer.




  408. Kevin May 6th 2013

    Zululander, I’m a Kiwi and I’ll let you in on a secret. Down here we dine out on shark and taties , and don’t mind eating shark only !

  409. Kevin May 6th 2013

    Andrew Strom, yes individualism along with humanism are a very real problem, along with a lack of God called leadership .

    The combination of these two problems results in a very real stalemate.

    It is only through the real visible anointing of Lord Jesus Christ , that people are forced to choose.

  410. Kevin May 6th 2013

    Andrew S , meaning that many at their time of conversion responded to a man pleasing sermon, not the true anointing of Lord Jesus Christ , that would have bought them into true repentance and made them dependent on Him .

  411. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013

    Lightning Storm.

    Be encoraged for I too am in the group of
    `I will not be communicating with you any further.`
    It is sad that A.J. can`t give room for poeple to grow in the Lord.

    Randal Lowery.

    Good advise about watching each one. I think we are all doing that & are realising who believes what but the most important one to watch is our attitudes, for although we may believe differently on topics if our attitude is gracious, as God says then we can give each other room to grow. We all need it.

    The Candlestick.

    I went away for the day & thought there`d be a ruffle of feathers.
    What is sooooo strange is that the local Catholic, the local Anglican, the local Uniting, the local Salvation Army, the local Pentecostal, & the other local organisations of man are all supposed to be the local Candlestick but the other local Christians (supporting each other & helping each other visibly out in the community,) but gathering differently are not of the local candlestick or local candlesticks!!!!!!!

    Nonsense. Prejudiced because some group looks different.

    Barry Schmidt.

    Yes I also was taught in Bible College (in New Zealand) about interpreting the Bible. And I totally agree on allegorising. It is a misrepresentation of God`s word. I also see agree when you said that what is said about the 7 churches can be relevant today & principles applicable today. Also good to look at the church fathers & evangelistic revivalists scholars of previous centuries. Great.

    But as Randall is always encouraging us, it is God`s word that is the final authority. You made the foundation of your interpretation on just one scripture. And we know that is not correct. It must fit in to all God says on that topic. The whole mosaic of the word.

    Thus starting with the scripture you gave where the Lord Himself gives the interpretation,-

    `the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches.` (Rev. 1: 20)

    By Biblical interpretation we must now look at what God says about those symbols & not presume them ourselves. The law of first mention comes in to play where we look at what God first told us about the word.

    `Seven, 7 – Heb. word meaning `to be complete.`

    Let`s apply that with another scripture to see if it is true.

    `there were 7 lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the 7 Spirits of God.` (Rev. 4: 5)

    Does God have 7 Spirits? No. One Holy Spirit. Well what does He means, 7 Spirits. Apply God`s meaning –

    `there is the complete Spirit of God – the spirit of wisdom & understanding, the spirit of counsel & strength, the spirit of knowledge & fear of the Lord & judgment. (Is. 11: 1 – 4)`

    God uses the word 7 to convey to us the whole, complete operations of the Holy Spirit that is around Christ`s throne in Revelation ch. 4.

    The same in Rev. 1: 20, God is unveiling to us His Beloved Son as the High Priest forever, over the Body of Christ. He is showing us the `7 churches,` God`s symbol 7 for `completion, thus meaning the complete Body of Christ that Christ is the Head & High Priest over.

    The Book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ in 4 aspects. It is the culmination of all God has shown in His word about His Son. He is Head of the full Body of Christ which we are told He is maturing to be complete in Him.

    Let`s learn to look at how God interprets His word then all our differences will come on line with Him.


  412. Zululander May 6th 2013

    Donald you are absolutely correct, why then make this unhelpful provocative statement?

    God can reach many in these churches without you, me or Barry going in like the gospel police and blasting them with the truth.

  413. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    I said that simply because the way we offer the truth to someone makes a huge difference on whether or not they will accept it, or even listen. We cannot get into someone’s face and harshly tell them what the truth is!!! We must offer it to them in a way that they will desire what we have and want more.

  414. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    2 Tim 2:24-26
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

  415. fabakary May 6th 2013

    God bless you too Ken. Marilyn Crow I am glad you were able to watch the video , and it blesses you that way. I am sure many who will probably watch it later will be more comforted too, about Joan W departure. Joan W was purely Christ -like, though just for a short season communicating with her through email , I was blessed of knowing one of Gods precious saints. As old as she was, she spoke with a mind of strength clear as a youth .When an old person in age and the faith tells a person young both in the faith and age, like me “I am sorry” just on little things,that embarrasses me and I am far more careful of how I relate with such kind of people not out of fear but knowing I have meet one of Gods rare mature saints. Joan W was such a kind. Her counsels were very unique and practical. But the God that blesses her to me for a season found it good to take her, and I accept that with Good faith, after all almost all of you here in a place like this have been in the faith long long ago , and the Lord can use as he had been doing to bless people like me. God bless you all. I thank God for all of you here too, you are part of the blessing He gives me.

  416. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013

    fabakary. You encourage my heart. Bless you brother. Marilyn.

  417. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013

    re: discussion of the Body.

    I think it is important to realise that every move of God was not generally understood by the people of the previous one.

    The Pentecostal denominations came out of denominations like the Baptists, who came out of denominations like the Methodists, who came out of denominations like the Church of England who came out of the Catholic Denomination who came out of the early believers.

    When people `come out,` there is a period of time before we see what God is doing. Might be prudent to heed Gamaliel`s advice –

    `if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.` (Acts 5: 38 & 39)

    Let us rejoice that we are considered worthy to suffer shame for His name. (v. 41)


  418. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013


    I don`t know where any one said about perfect doctrine. Different ones mentioned false doctrines. And that is exactly what the early Pentecostal people did. They left their established denominations because the truth of the Holy Spirit was not accepted. This is the same for all the denominations. The people left their previous denominations & went on to the next that was forming because they had a revelation of a truth that God was revealing at the time.

    I hear you say, `What is the truth that God has revealed to all these OOC`s. If you listen to them, us, you will hear that they realise that organisation should be to support the Body of Christ & not to control it. They (we) are coming to the realisation that we want to be responsible to Christ the Head & are open to hear truth from ministers & the Body.

    There is much yet that the Lord is going to unfold of His word but that the structures of man are now balwalks of past revelations.
    Important to stand for but a stumbling block to further revelation & clarification of God`s word.

    Open our eyes & hearts Lord. Marilyn.

  419. I’d like to share on a scripture which I’ve received revelation on recently through another brother from listening to sermon of his on YouTube…

    “As you enter the house, give it your greeting. “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. (Matthew 10:12-13 NASB)

    The Holy Spirit permanently indwells every born again believer since the time the Glorified Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit”…

    But the Presence of the Holy Spirit – you shall be Clothed with Power from on High – is also meant to sit on us like a mantle of His Power…

    The Peace of God also goes with us…

    When the Holy Spirit possesses a vessel everything they do exudes the Presence that is both in and over their lives…

    That is why the disciples who had received the Holy Spirit – on the inside – needed to wait (tarry) until they were Clothed with Power from on High – had the Holy Spirit resting on them like Tongues of Fire – the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and with Fire…

    Consecration brought this to pass…

    Anyway, the point being that we are ministering from the Manifest Presence of God around our lives and even the shadow of our garment can heal in that situation – even someone touching Jesus’ garment can heal in that situation because of the Tangible Presence of God on our lives…

    If this is resisted, if we are resisted – who are carrying the Presence – the Fragrance – of the Lord then we are to return our Peace to ourselves…

    The Holy Spirit is a Gentleman and will not push His Peace upon those who don’t want it…

    Who will not receive it…

    If you receive a Prophet in the Name of the Lord (later in the same passage)…

    “He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. (Matthew 10:41 NASB)

    This means that we’re meant to be able to perceive who various members of the Body are and honour them for what they are…

    We will be rewarded for this…

    But if we do not recognise them for who they are but instead say that they are not who they are – like what the Pharisees did to Jesus – then we Blaspheme the Holy Spirit…

    The Holy Spirit is grieved and His Peace returns to rest on you as it was not wanted by those He tried to approach through you…

    There is a principle in scripture of giving people what they want…

    If they don’t want the Presence or Truth of God – let your Peace return to you and go somewhere – to someone – who does…

    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2:11a NASB)

  420. GaryB May 6th 2013

    DonaldN wrote: We cannot get into someone’s face and harshly tell them what the truth is!!!quote…………


    I think the pharisees, lawyers, scribes, tried this with Jesus. They came with their truth and when He did not accept how they said it, they started using accusations and twisted what He said.

    (Harshness) All this does is reveal what is in a man’s heart. One minute he is blessing someone and then the next he is cursing them.

    No matter how many scriptures this person quotes it has no effect on trying to reach someone, if they come across as treating someone as though they are superior.

    I have found kindness goes along way.

    But for most who are an authority on God’s Word it is generally, “my way or the highway, theology”.

    One time I knew of a lady that visited a church she gave a testimony of how blessed she was to find this place as she did not know where to go to fellowship. After the meeting a brother cornered her in the parking lot and said, Why was she coming to God’s house in mens pants, as the women there did not wear pants. The lady never returned to that church again.

    I see so many in church who have a religious harshness that drives people away.

    You never hear of them winning the lost, but they always have a word for everyone that calls themselves Christian.

    Is this the type of people we want to join in with and follow?


  421. GaryB May 6th 2013

    Galatians 5:15
    But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

    Proverbs 12:18
    There is one who speaks like the piercings of a sword, But the tongue of the wise promotes health.

    Proverbs 15:2
    The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.

    James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
    See how great a forest a little fire kindles!

    Job 15:5 For your iniquity teaches your mouth,
    And you choose the tongue of the crafty.
    6 Your own mouth condemns you, and not I;
    Yes, your own lips testify against you.


  422. watchful May 6th 2013

    Just back from a day out of town visiting two of my brothers (natural family), and catching up here….Wow,if even Jesus had no place to lay His head, then I guess it’s not too unusual that some should be like the Master.

    What I’m perceiving is that the churches are not just imperfect, they are missing the mark entirely. They have no foundation. That is the problem, and it leads to a lopsided unstable building of some kind, differing only in the details between churches and denominations. What I’m beginning to see is that what we have been thinking of as something maybe to “grow into” is actually the foundation and the starting point…………….

    One of my brothers has been going to Seventh Day Adventist since very shortly after his salvation not long after I received the Lord 25 years ago. Now, this whole conversation is interesting because yesterday while visiting him there was effort made to bring me into that fold, even using the words “come home”. It’s so tempting at my time of life especially to have someplace to lay my head, even Catholicism, because I grew up with that from childhood and for me there is a comfort there.

    But where is Jesus? Where is He to be found? For a long time after being led out of Toronto, I was searching and searching for Him in many (evangelical) churches and didn’t find Him there either. Eventually I discovered that He was waiting for me OUTSIDE THE CAMP, so can somebody please tell me why on earth would I want to go and lay my head someplace where He is not….??

    What’s the difference between say your church Andrew J, and the SDA or Catholic, and how should I decide which one should I call home? Dear brother, I’m afraid that what you are doing around here lately has only served to ILLUMINATE to me that yours and theirs are all one and the same many-tentacled thing. So I’m just more convinced than ever this morning that obeying Jesus and going to Him outside the camp is the right way.

  423. GaryB May 6th 2013

    Matthew 11:29-30

    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

  424. watchful May 6th 2013

    Amen to that, Gary B.

  425. HHHLGA May 6th 2013

    😀 I know my opinion is worth little, for I am the least of you in knowledge. I see so many here who love God and His Body, desiring obedience in the inner most parts; being committed to what He has shown you personally. All here, appear to be growing in differing areas as He deals with each one according to the grace and light given us, from Himself. You have all encouraged and challenged those desiring growth in truth. I am learning from all here. I found this helpful after reading the latest posts:

    Romans 14:1-12 speaks about accepting Christians of differing opinions and to not judge them because, “To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind…But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God,” (Rom. 14:4-5,10). The whole point is that we need to be united, not bickering. We need to move beyond the denominational [or personal] barriers of what separates us into the common ground of what unites us: Jesus!
    – Matt Slick

    the common ground of what unites us-

    In the essentials, we must have unity;
    In the non-essentials, we must have liberty;
    In all and above all things, we must have charity.

    – It is crucial for ME to remember that we are ALL His workmanship, seated in Him, One Body in position and purpose, though not yet in every practice. Some members have matured in leaps and bounds; others more slowly. Yet, He remains faithful the nurturing and growth of all. His Love suffers long.

    Eph. 2:
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us “together” with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
    6 And hath raised us up “together”, and made us sit “together” in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast .
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    – It appears our position in Him and fellowship with His, are equally important to a completeness in Him. All the while remembering we are each-one, a unique workmanship in ‘varying degrees of spiritual maturity’. What he requires of one, he may not yet, require of another. He presses each to obedience as he gives light through the Word, then WE tend to press another to obey what he has charged to us! Whether He has given the light and grace toward their obedience or not.

    Others May, You Cannot-

    If God has called you to be really like Jesus He will draw you into a life of crucifixion and humility. God’s call will put such demands of obedience on you that you will not be able to follow other people, or measure yourself by other Christians. At times, He will let other
    people do things which He will not let you do.

    Other Christians who seem very religious will push themselves, pull wires, and work schemes to carry out their plans. You cannot, and if you attempt it, you will meet with failure and rebuke from the Lord.

    Others may boast of themselves, of their work, of their successes, but the Holy Spirit will not allow you to do any such thing, and if you begin it, He will lead you to despise yourself and all your good works.

    Others may be allowed to succeed in making money, or may have a legacy left to them, but it is likely God will keep you poor. God wants you to have something far better than gold, namely, a helpless dependence upon Him, that He may demonstrate His faithful love for you in supplying your needs day by day.

    God may let others be honored and put forward, and keep you hidden in obscurity in order to produce some fragrant fruit for His coming glory which can only be produced in the shade. He may let others be great, but keep you small. He may let others do a work for Him and get the credit for it now. The reward for your work is held in the hands of Jesus and you will not see it until He comes.

    The Holy Spirit will put a strict watch over you with a jealous love. He will rebuke you for the little words and feelings or for wasting your time. So make up your mind that God is an infinite Sovereign, and has a right to do as He pleases with His own. He does not owe you an explanation of these mysteries. But if you give yourself to be His child, He will wrap you up in a jealous love, and give you the precious blessings for those who belong, heart and soul, to Him.

    Settle it forever, then, that you are to deal directly with the Holy Spirit. It is His option to tie your tongue, or chain your hand, or close your eyes in ways that He does not seem to use with others. And when you are so possessed by the living God that your heart delights over this peculiar, personal, private, jealous guardianship and management of the Holy Spirit over your life, you will have found the vestibule of Heaven.

    What is your only comfort in life and death?
    That I am not my own, but belong, body and soul, in life and in death, to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ.
    He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood, and He has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.
    He also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven. In fact, all things must work together for my salvation.
    Because I belong to Him, Christ, by His Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for Him. –Heidelberg Catechism

    I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Philippians 3:8

  426. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    I think we all need to remember the story of the 4 blind men describing an elephant. One has hold of the tail, one the leg, one the ear and one the trunk. All describe the elephant according to their knowledge.

    If we would all listen more to the others we would all gain knowledge and have a wider view of the whole truth. Then we let discernment lead us by the Holy Spirit.

    We here are all spread across the world. Each of us minister to different types of people, with different backgrounds, different foundational doctrines.
    We each need to approach those we are sent to in the way that will have the greatest impact on them. This style of ministry can be vastly different in various regions of the planet.

    1 Cor 9:19-23
    19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
    20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
    21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
    22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
    23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

  427. Barry & Andrew J – The 7 Churchs Rev 2&3

    In Rev. 1:19 the Lord gave John instructions on writing the Bible’s prophecy of the End of the Age. He said, “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.” Many scholars believe these instructions effectively divide the book into three parts, as i do also. The things John had seen are contained in chapter 1. The things that were in John’s present are described in chapters 2&3 and the things that will take place later begin in chapter 4 and fill the rest of the book.

    Strictly speaking the seven churches of Rev. 2&3 were the only addressees of the book of Revelation (Rev. 1:11). Each one was an actual congregation that deserved both the commendations and the criticisms Jesus gave them. Why did Jesus choose them as opposed to all other churches of the day? There were many more.

    Many scholars who have studied Rev. 2&3 see that with their particular challenges and viewed in the order in which they’re mentioned, these seven are not just a handful of long gone 1st century churches but are representative of the entire Church Age. They say the reason the Lord chose them was to provide this concise look at the Church’s past, present and future.

    Accepting this view makes Rev. 2&3 instructive to the entire Church age, because the problems He identified there are still with us.

    Therefore seeing Rev. 2&3 as signifying the entire Church Age is a reasonable interpretation. That being the case, then the phrase “the things that will take place later” (literally, after these things) from Rev. 1:19, means that everything from Rev. 4 to the end of the book will come after the Church Age has ended.

    After These Things

    Rev chapt’s 4&5 contain a number of indications that these two chapters describe events that take place right after the rapture of the Church. First, the 24 elders of Rev. 4:4 don’t appear in any earlier description of the throne of God, so it is reasonable to say they’re new arrivals. In addition they’re sitting on thrones (meaning they’re rulers) wearing white (meaning they’re righteous) with crowns of gold on their heads. The word for crown John used is stephanos. It refers to a victory crown and is the crown of an overcomer.

    In Rev. 3:11 Jesus cautioned us to hold on so that no one will take our crown, and in Rev. 3:21 He said, “To him who overcomes I will give the right to sit with me on my throne just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.” Crowns and thrones.

    Singing to God in Rev. 5:9-10, they declare, “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”


  428. Zululander May 6th 2013

    There is ony one interpretation to any scripture but many applications. The correct interpretation is what the writer meant the readers/hearers to know. That would be in all the contexts applicable to then, them, culture, etc etc etc.
    The guys gave you the interpretation & you’re talking of an application. There may be others but only one true interpretation.

    HHHLGA that “others may you may not” is soooo excellent.

  429. watchful May 6th 2013

    Holy LGA, you are a dear one. There are those here who when they speak I just shut my mouth and have no desire or need to say a word when they are speaking so much more and better than me, and of things that I need to attain to and learn.

    Just my take on it, but how I wish it were only a matter of individual instruction to God’s own servant in this case, but it seems to me there are quite a few things that are applicable to everyone all the time. Yes, there is room and grace for growth, I sure do hope so for my own sake, and there is also the difference between somebody being a danger only to their own self and being a danger to others. It seems that in the latter case the Holy Spirit tends to be a little more ‘argumentative’ sometimes from what I’ve seen anyway.

    There is a time for peace and a time for war. Much prefer the peacetimes, like anyone, but when “war” is taking place, I think all we can do pretty much is just gird up, fasten our seatbelts and ride it out and let iron sharpen iron. Am I wrong in that, or missing the mark somewhere? I don’t know but it’s the best understanding that I can offer right now.

  430. HHHLGA May 6th 2013

    RE: There is ony one interpretation to any scripture but many applications. The correct interpretation is what the writer meant the readers/hearers to know. That would be in all the contexts applicable to then, them, culture, etc etc etc.
    The guys gave you the interpretation & you’re talking of an application. There may be others but only one true interpretation.
    – I do agree with this, though, I can’t expect another without this wisdom “one interpretation” to understand as you do. When I was first saved, we went to speak with a woman about the Lord. She wasn’t born-again yet. She asked if we wanted a beer. Having previously been an alcoholic, I was now free and had no desire, rather great conviction against drinking. Two in our 3-some said ‘no’, while the third gave-way to his personal conviction to identify with her position. Was he being weaker or stronger to do so?

    Watchful, RE: There are those here who when they speak I just shut my mouth and have no desire or need to say a word when they are speaking so much more and better than me, and of things that I need to attain to and learn.

    ..there are quite a few things that are applicable to everyone all the time. Yes, there is room and grace for growth, I sure do hope so for my own sake..

    I SO agree with you. I listen far more than I speak, and thoroughly enjoy weighing the teachings with the soundness of the Word. We have great space to learn from people here. 😀 God Bless ~!

  431. HHHLGA May 6th 2013

    Zululander, RE: “others may you may not”

    A short article written by G. D. Watson, so very long ago.

    Do we suppose this man to have walked with God in sweet accord?

    I believe that article has touched many hearts. I’ve heard men and women both, say they cried when reading it. It has certainly spoken to my heart.

    Glad it blessed you as well.

    Youtube clip – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6V0MyBsbMA

  432. What I’ve seen in you watchful over the time I’ve known you on here and on JBTV is that you have a dislike for Authority…

    I know that comes from what you’ve experienced in the past and I’ve spent quite a bit of time praying for you – as the Lord has led me – regarding that…

    You have always “clashed” with me when I have rebuked error…

    You have always interpreted anything I’ve said on Authority to mean “enforcing”, “forcing”, “bullying”, etc, when I have over and over and over explained the principle of voluntarily lining up under the Lordship of Jesus Christ…

    Along time back I had a picture for you – it’s on JBTV – regarding someone sitting in a prison being attacked by control and using rebellion to defend themselves – yes, that was for you – and I saw that person set free…

    I am aware of these issues in you and how they surface when I confront error…

    I am not “put off” by your “loaded comments” towards me or what I do…

    I don’t care whether you understand me or not – or whether you malign me – as you do – and as you have done repeatedly over the time I have known you…

    You seem to receive but then “throw it back in the face” of the one ministering to you – I have seen that in you…

    I just pray that you will surrender and come to that place where He heals you of that pain, that deep pain of the abuse which you experienced as a child – for this is what is holding you bound – and making it impossible for you to have fellowship with God’s People…

    Yes, I know you’ll misinterpret that but I pray now that the Lord would break this spirit of control over you and the spirit of rebellion also…

    That you might hear His Voice speaking to you…

    Love you sister,


  433. Zululander May 6th 2013

    We all like to believe we do only what the bible says but the truth is…we only do what we interpret the bible to be saying.
    Believe me folk, it takes al LOT of study to correctly interpret the bible. A lot is very plain very easy to understand, but when we get into discussions like we have been here, it’s a different ball park. God says study. It’s not just a matter of…..the Holy Spirit will teach me I listen to Him.
    ANY hearing of the Holy Spirit needs to be checked against the Bible. Not checking the Holy Spirit but to check our hearing.
    The bible is a very fat book with lots of information & everything is said in a context & to get that out correct takes dedicated study among other things

  434. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRFi-umeLhs

    Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven… 🙂

  435. watchful May 6th 2013

    Andrew J, it’s refreshing and good to hear you speak candidly. Thank you for speaking your thoughts. I love you too brother.

  436. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Do I understand then, those without the facility for Bible study, or the capacity, or perhaps even being without a Bible in their own language, may not hear and ‘know.’ Jesus said, my sheep know my voice.

    That is the case in much of the ‘underground, Chinese church, yet they are thriving, far more so that the Western church whose institutions are frankly in utter disarray.

    Not a trick question at all. Nor do I disagree with your statement. So many of us have spent years studying the Bible, and yet agreement on this forum, not this thread, is severely limited. And I don’t see the spiritual prosperity, which charcterises the Chinese church, as reported in Christian media.

  437. And again “your thoughts” versus “His Voice”… 🙂

  438. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    wow…now that’s confirmation about what people have been saying about the “4 walled churches”.

    There’s no denominations in the Kingdom of Heaven…thank God!
    There’s no religion in the Kingdom of Heaven….thank God!
    There’s no little buildings or huge buildings with steeples and crosses in the Kingdom of Heaven….thank God!
    There’s no pulpits in the Kingdom of Heaven….thank God!
    There’s no opinions in the Kingdom of Heaven….thank God!
    There’s no church committees to weigh whether something is from God or not……..thank God!

    “………..on earth, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN…..”

  439. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Soon, Storm, soon.

  440. watchful May 6th 2013

    Well, whether we see it in our lifetime or not, as some seem so impatient to see it, we have Abraham as our example, who was called OUT and by FAITH was looking for the city which is to come…….

  441. watchful May 6th 2013

    Well, whosever thoughts they are Andrew J, it’s very good to hear the you that I used to know, the real you. 🙂

  442. watchful May 6th 2013

    (…wasn’t meaning to imply that you or Ligtning Storm are impatient Richard, in case it came across that way, was just speaking in general…)

  443. Lightning Storm May 6th 2013

    1Cr 2:4 KJV
    And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:

    1Cr 2:5 KJV

    (just your ordinary webster’s dictionary for those who snub the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries)


    “THE ACTION of SHOWING the existence or truth of something by giving proof or evidence”
    The Gospel is not a verbal argument for the existence of God. It is above all things, the DEMONSTRATION of God’s LOVE and a DEMONSTRATION of God’s DUNAMIS POWER.
    It is the evidence of Who He is, in His Love, by the reality of His broken body on the cross and the SUPERNATURAL POWER THAT BREAKS INTO THE EARTH THROUGH THAT SAME CROSS.

    Jesus did what He saw the Father do…..that’s what Jesus said in the book of John.
    What did Jesus do? Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus DEMONSTRATED the Love of God in healings, miracles, signs, and wonders……….and THEN AFTER His resurrection…….the book of Hebrews said that Jesus did FAR MORE SUPERNATURAL DEMONSTRATIONS IN 40 DAYS then He did PRIOR to the cross! So many, that in fact it was too many to fill ALL THE BOOKS in the world!

    If the SUPERNATURAL POWER OF GOD was necessary for JESUS to DEMONSTRATE the Love of God to the world, then I believe we little mud dwellers need to do the same.

  444. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    watchful – be encouraged in Christ Jesus 🙂

  445. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    HHHLGA – I too was blessed when reading “Others may..” you posted above.

    Thankyou for sharing.. 🙂

  446. watchful May 6th 2013

    Bless you Roger, and thank you for standing firm in Christ Jesus. 🙂

  447. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Watchful, my soon, soon, comment wasn’t displaying impatience, and I fully accept and thank you for your clarification. May God bless you richly.

    Rather, I was counselling against impatience, but such is the limitation of the written word viewed across many cultures and countries …

  448. Roger (NZ) May 6th 2013

    Richard – Yes, His sheep do indeed know His voice 🙂 in China and elsewhere.

    That we may all raise our eyes and look around this world from His perspective, at His work among people as He draws many to Him – in His way, and in His timing – for the recognition, praise and glory of His Son, Christ Jesus our risen Lord and King.

  449. Have a read of the following watchful to see some of the “real me” which you refer to as having been “lost”… 🙂


  450. watchful May 6th 2013

    Litghtning Storm, I don’t snub dictionaries or biblical scholarship. 🙂 I was just making a point at that time……really the same point that Richard Savage just made.

  451. watchful May 6th 2013

    Richard, amen to your counselling against impatience. 🙂 I truly did not have you in mind at all when I referred to impatience, some in the past have expressed worry about us all dying in the wilderness with no fruit or fireworks to show for it, and that’s what I was thinking of.

  452. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Watchful, thank you. A more gentle soul than this hot head!

  453. HolyHolyHolyLGA May 6th 2013

    Andrew JH
    Thakyou for sharing this link. I look forward to digging deeper into ‘the real you. I was delighted to find,
    The Jealousy of God…Posted on May 5, 2013
    This concept has been very pressed of God lately. I often think of Jeremiah 7:18 and God’s anger over his people baking small cakes dedicated to the sun god. A rightful jealousy over their love and attention. Thanks for your sharing.

  454. Darren Sargent May 6th 2013

    A word about the interpretation of scripture that has been mentioned a few times in last dozen or so posts. Rather than cobble together a narrative of my own making, can I just leave you with some statements?

    There is no end to study. (Proverbs)

    Where there are many words, sin is not absent. (Proverbs)

    We have an anointing that teaches us and we need no one teach us. (1 John)

    The word of God is REVEALED – not excavated by our own hands.

    A prophet speaks as he is carried along by the Spirit (Peter).

    Dangers come when we are not simple enough. (Oswald Chambers – paraphrase)

    His voice breaks the Cedars of Lebanon – the earth melts. (Psalms)

    The truth is never less than its written or verbal expression. (Art Katz)

    If You are silent we will sleep in the depths. (Psalms)

    There is a rather obvious narrative there! So much for being obtuse, ah well. My point is this: if we study, then let it be the Lord confronting us through His scripture. Let His examination of us be provoked by our study. Let our study be devotion or nothing at all.

    Night night. zzzzz

  455. Averyl May 6th 2013

    Andrew J, – In the city where I live there are a number of churches operating under the 5-fold type ministry.
    They label anyone who is outside any church as rebellious & not wanting to come under authority, so long as you belong to a sect or denomination you’re accepted.
    Jesus Himself said where 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name, He is in their midst.
    He also said to the Samaritan women the day will come when we will not be judged on where we go to worship God.
    Why do we keep judging one another in this matter? Let those without sin cast the 1st stone, – but wait, those who are under feel qualified to cast stones at those who rely on the authority of God!

    Donald, Gary, Lightning, Roger, & others, – Amen!

  456. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Averyl, what a breath of fresh air in a stuffy room. God bless you for that!

  457. HHHLGA May 6th 2013

    5:27 pm

    Averyl, thankyou for that simple good word to consider. 🙂

  458. Hi Averyl,

    You are not under condemnation from me, When the Holy Spirit shows you that you are to submit yourself to someone – in the way I explained in my “Submission” post on my blog – then you’ll be enabled to obey Him with joy – if that is not happening then don’t worry about it…

    It’s all about wisdom and the Lord giving you that wisdom directly…

    You make the choice – no one forces you to make it – and you make it before Him as He is your Protector… It’s your trust in Him which enables you to do this…

    Obviously you don’t line up under anything which you don’t believe to be “the real deal” – that is control and that is evil…

    Love you sister,


  459. Richard Savage May 6th 2013

    Darren, again, a breath of fresh air. Thank you also.

    I have a cheap print on my wall here near my Mac. Bought in Krakow, Poland, a long time ago. It depicts an ageing Rabbi poring over Torah scrolls by candle light in a darkened room. We’re like that, aren’t we? Scratching around for intellectual crumbs … eventually some will parade their Biblical scholarship and tell us they’re feasting … on stale crumbs.

    You so rightly said, the Word of God is revealed, not excavated! I’ve been a digger of the word, for a long time, and backed off! Now I ask, Father, in Jesus Name I come, what is my portion for this day, please?

    Then, it is the Book that studies me. It is the Book that judges me as no man may. It is the Book that illumines my entire being. Then I know, this is my Father speaking to me, through Jesus His Son, and in the Holy Spirit. It is not an academic exercise, no theology degree will come to me (who wants it?) no accolades from my academic peers. No thank you!

    it doesn’t occur every day, I wouldn’t want anyone to think me more pious than most. I am not.

    The unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Maybe, just maybe, we should trust our Father a little more, rather than make Bible study a ‘work,’ a righteousness we offer Him. A righteousness not won for us by Christ Jesus on the Cross.

  460. Thanks HHHLGA, You are a blessing to me… 🙂

  461. Hi again Averyl, You are in rebellion when the Holy Spirit tells you to do something and you don’t obey Him, Sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our brothers and sisters in the Lord (actually this is meant to be normal) and when we hear Him speaking to us through them – again when we hear Him not any other way – we need to submit to Him if we don’t want to be in rebellion, Love you sister, Don’t let anyone put condemnation on you, Andrew

  462. DonaldN May 6th 2013

    I just thought I would give you my idea of what a local “Church” should be.

    I won’t waste much time on the matter of …
    Christ led
    Holy Spirit inspired
    If it ain’t these it ain’t Church.

    First, it should be a fellowship of the body of Christ. It has been mentioned before that early Church meetings did not allow unbelievers in, especially when partaking of the Communion elements.
    Second, it should minister to one another. This is where most local Churches miss it. They hold their meetings and the people come and go and that is it. Some may have home groups, and that is good. I believe that a local congregation should have enough Pastors to minister to each and every person.
    The five-fold ministry is given to aid in the spiritual growth of the believers. So far, what I have seen in the “five-fold” ministry is just a few preachers with different titles ministering behind the pulpit when it is their turn.
    Those of you who went to college. Did you learn more by sitting and listening to a professor lecture for 1 hour, or by working hands on with someone that showed you each step to reach a goal?
    Third, …well, there is no third. Fellowship and ministry. What else is there.
    This can be done in groups of 2 or 3 or 5000. If it is done God’s way and not just doing man’s traditional “church”.
    Perhaps some day soon we will see a 5000 member local Church that is actually doing God’s ministry. Unfortunately, I don’t see anything close at this time.
    I believe it can even be done on line. The Spirit is not limited by time and space. Many of us here enjoy getting together and exchanging revelations (and opinions) that God has given each of us. Sometimes we may correct each other. Sometimes we grieve with each other. But isn’t this whole thing a form of fellowship and ministry? Yes, we need personal fellowship and we all need to get together with others locally as God leads.
    So, in conclusion, I don’t see any local ‘churches’ that do much more than go through the ceremonial rituals that they have done for generations. Out of Church? For me it is better than the boring religion, and much better than the manmade excitement that has no substance. God will put it all together in His time.
    Sometimes He only shows us the next step, we must trust Him to lead us to the destination He has planned.

  463. HHHLGA May 6th 2013

    Richard Savage, I have a similar old print of three very ageing Rabbis at a large table, several scrolls rolled out. One is standing, and they appear in an argument. Mine is an old print from the world’s fair art exhibit . Still packed after moving. What ‘a find’ we have both acquired.

  464. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013


    Right on the truth as usual like a straight arrow. I learned so much from how you responded to AJH. So gracious.


    Good comments much appreciated.
    & yes God`s interpretation is clear of Rev. 1 – 3.


    Summary –
    7 – to be complete. (Heb.)
    Churches – The Body of Christ. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

    means the `Complete Body of Christ,` overseen throughout the ages by the Lord Jesus Christ who holds the 7 (complete) angels/messengers to the Body.

    God is not partial & only wrote to those of John`s time. God`s first key to interpreting His word is `It`s all points to Christ.` The focus if not the 7 churches of John`s time but Christ who is the head of the COMPLETE Body of Christ. That is the wonderful truth that should thrill our hearts.


    Great to read your comments especially on the Body of Christ being represented by the 24 elders. Just a little add on. When the 24 elders sang the new song (Rev. 5: 9 & 10) the correct translation for the last part is –

    `And have made us kings & priests to our God; & we shall reign OVER the earth.`

    Many translations have incorrectly put in the word, `on` the earth which has caused much confusion. The Greek word is `epi,` meaning `OVER.`

    You have a good understanding of truth, Ken. Where did you learn the truths you know?

  465. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013

    DonaldN. Great to read.


    Have an interesting thought. If some of us here got together in a local area, rented a hall, appointed a hierachy & put up a sign the church of the `Calathupians,` you know what? We would be warmly accepted by the established church. Why? because we would look the same. I`m talking structures here.

    People think we are not accountable, can`t have true teaching, etc. But to mix with people everyday you need to have real accountability proven over time or people will move on by. And teaching, well everyone can read classics, the internet etc.

    Enjoying the reading. Marilyn.

  466. Randal Lowery–
    are you saying that killing another person is the unforgivable sin?
    NO way. the unpardonable sin
    is BLASPHEMY against the HOLY SPIRIT
    its made very clear in mark, i think chap 3.
    very specific.
    THIS he said FOR THEY SAID he casts out demons by beelzebub.
    Donald……..its real easy
    WHEN we are led of the HOLY SPIRIT
    WE are given words to say.
    Some are worrying how to appraoch certain people.
    WE cant do this or that.
    then you will be led how to CORRECT
    the WORDS will come , what to SAY , will come.
    Save some in FEAR…………..
    others with compassion.
    SIMPLE. very easy.

  467. Marilyn Crow May 6th 2013

    Andrew J. Horton.

    Talking of accountability. If you are accountable as one under authority then I suggest you submit what you wrote to Watchful (publically) starting with `What I`ve seen in you Watchful…`
    Submit this to Andrew S. & to your mentors. We would all like to know what they think of such behaviour.

    And submit the comments you made to Lightning Storm & myself also. If there is truth to come out, then we can all learn.

    To publically denegrade someone AJH needs public accountability. So are you under authority? Are you accountable?

    We`ll see. Marilyn.

  468. The spirit of witchcraft is easy to spot… 🙂

  469. ROGER, i need to know if you see this spirit that fell upon PETER WILSON………….
    is attaching to another. i checked out
    certain links, etc……..and i saw the same strange , yet identcial speech patterns, and how they MAY, be being shifted
    by a SENSUAL spirit. SINCE i have no PROOF of this
    i wont identify the man. BUT spiritual discernment
    has never led me astray on any.
    TRY and remember, back long fore pete went viral
    i saw it coming, and i kept warning.
    Well………….i am seeing its familiarity again.
    but i must TEST this . i would never falsely accuse any.
    THUS its HEAVY prayer time. i suggest YOU pray and all others pray as well.
    SENSUALITY must be dealt with quickly
    or it envelopes the whole man.
    they hear of another spirit, believing it to be GOD,
    when its all flesh fed.
    if one is having to CHOKE down or fight against any type of new revealtion, if this new revealtion is going against what you think
    to be right, and in accordance with truth, yet you keep putting it off as more enightenment of teh LORD, i would RUN from this spirit.
    it aint a FIGHT to receive it at all. if this fits any
    GET away from it now.
    IT boils down to GODLINESS with contentment.
    if one aint content……………they soon hear of another spriit
    which will feed as they greed, yet twists it to seem as GODS WILL.

  470. This sensual spirit will attack the TRUTH of GODLINESS with contentment.
    BUT in a way such as to twist scriptures to bring cares upon earth and not above.
    ITS highly decpetive, for its already in our carnal nature.
    ITS us, our flesh nature.
    but clerverly the dark one slips it in bit by bit as though from GOD,
    to those who NEVER KNEW the true gain of godliness with contentment. TO those who were never satisified
    from the heart for JUST THE BREAD OF LIFE
    but inwardly desired just a wee bit more.
    its nasty, and it will kill.
    and even though some have waxed massively wrong from it
    and can be EASILY SPOTTED
    many have only waxed a lil thus far and are much harder to see the leaven. LEST we have CHRIST, and are CONTENT with HIM.
    forsake all and follow CHRIST.

  471. IT killed PETE wilson DEAD.
    and many on the site, NEVER saw it coming.
    BY grace and the supply of the spirit
    i discerned it long fore it was revealed in him.
    i warned him often, and talked often of godliness with contentment
    and to steer clear from this other guy.
    ANd then OVERNIGHT THE TEETH came.
    and i was EXCOMMUNICATED from taht sight
    greased lightning fast.
    WHY…………CUASE THE DEVIL fears the TRUTH of GODS HOLY WORD and knew i had stayed BY GRACE, BY GRACE
    only in GODS WORD.not mens.
    SO this spirit in pete blocked me asap. ask roger
    I am worried, i pray for us all.
    BUT leaven starts small, sensuality starts to replace truth,
    human emotions being run by a dark power begin replaceing
    truth with mens reasonings.
    IT becomes a relationship NOT based on truth
    but based on good relationshipes etc
    BUDDISTS have GOOD hugging relationships with the world and others, YET HAVE NOT the truth
    many can do that. its easy to hug a person, YET STILL NOT BE FOLLWING TRUTH. the sensual spirit
    then gets worse and worse
    and it becomes focused on WHAT would offend
    , take that out, what or how it would affect, and omit that.
    ITS the devil, taking GODS rebukes and holy living
    and righteous acts and hiding the SEVERITY OF GOD
    to create a new version. BUT IT STARTS small, ever so small.
    WE MUST be in the BIBLE………..
    we mUST TEST all we hear. EVERYTHING.
    because if not…………………we gonna fall.
    MEN you think would never fall,
    men who stood and appreed strong
    are now falling even as we speak.
    WE GOTTA fight sensuality with the words of TRUE DOCTRINE.
    we must. Where are the GRAVE deacons paul said DEACONS must be…………satan is and has been SOFTNING
    the church, he is all out waring and sensual men are being taken quick by him. STAND on the ROCK and get grounded in bible truth. ASAP.

  472. GaryB May 7th 2013

    AJH Wrote:

    The spirit of witchcraft is easy to spot… quote…………

    Andrew I am very surprised at what your doing here brother.

    You say the spirit of witchcraft is easy to spot? But honestly I don’t think you can even see it especially when you allow your self and your children to be involved in the environment of magic, witches, and mythical creatures from pagan religions.

    You might ask what are you talking about.

    A number of comments back you mentioned that you and your children was watching an occultic movie.

    Quote….Andrew wrote: I’ve just watched the end of the Chronicles of Narnia, “The Lion, the witch & the wardrobe” with our three younger children…

    Aslan lays down his life, comes back to life… All the statutes in the witches castle are breathed on by Aslan and then the witch is defeated by Aslan…

    A good proportion of the army had been turned to stone by the witch once they were breathed on they came back to life and fought with Aslan…quote………………….

    This is no more then blatant occultism that your subjecting your family to. Witches, Aslan and his magic, pagan characters who are involved in black magic. Then to try and make this a Christian event is very strange.

    It’s not easy to spot the spirit of witchcraft if your setting and enjoying all the black magic.

    How can anyone justify this? Then to accuse everyone on this board as being wrong seems like a contradiction.

    Just being honest brother. 🙂


  473. THIS is happening because WE at the end
    all not of CHRIST in truth and in spirit
    are being led astray
    but it is clear the way many are headed.
    ITS going to end up in the new age religoin
    AND a man will stand and the world will hear him.
    SENSUALITY is of darkness and flesh.
    TRUTH and GRACE are of CHRIST.
    we cant be EMOTION ran…………ONLY TRUTH
    and truth then gives us joy and hope.
    but just cause something feels good and seems right
    against the BIBLE.
    satan wants men away from the bibble so he can decieve
    through his own . And satan is KING of scenarios to keep one in darkness. well what about this case, or what about that case.
    or etc. HEAR HIM NOT.
    TRUST and OBEY JESUS, read his sermons get them ENGRAINED, and GET those scrips engrained.
    any spirit which would lead any into any place which teaches error
    AINT OF GOD. GOD dont lead us into deceptoin.
    JESUS said my lambs FLEE, FLEE the voice of another.
    HEAR the words of the LORD.
    i suggest the more seasoned men get out and teach good doctrine. help any you can out of these pits of lies.
    BUT if they wont hear , shake the dust and leave.
    dont hang about unequally yoked or soon YOU BE CHOKED.

  474. GaryB May 7th 2013


    Not trying to hurt your feelings here. But all occult is strictly condemned by Scriptures. It is an abomination to the Lord. Whether in the OT or the NT the occult is condemn by God Himself.

    Many today think black magic or white magic if its called Christian is sanctified by the Lord. This is not right, all occult is of the devil no matter if a Christian tries to sanctify it or not.

    Witches, black magic, necromancers, sorcerers is all strictly forbidden as it becomes an open door to depression.

    You may want to take your family through deliverance from any involvement in it. The occult is a very serious matter according to the Bible. Its a direct connection to the demonic realm.


  475. THE SPIRIT will lead us to WARN evil men to repent
    that is always truth.
    WARN men to repent.
    GO into churches if you are led and warn them and teach them.
    BUT dont just sit and hug.
    WARN any in a sin, to get out asap.
    See how paul, who even when noticing idolarty in the city
    was MOVED by the SPIRIT and began warning and reasong out the scrips of GOD to thse men.
    Grave men. serious. Because any not in CHRIST will end up in lake of fire. peroid.
    WARN , save some with compassion others in fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
    even the garment spotted by the flesh.

  476. I take authority over the spirit of witchcraft which has tried to “squeeze in” and be “accepted” on this website, as our brother Randall says, trying “hug everyone” and “flatter”…

    Trying to winkle its way in…

    I rebuke it, I stand in the Spirit and I rebuke it and all the false and anti-Christ teaching it brings…

    Christ will return to earth to reign for a thousand years – we, His Saints, will return with Him…

    Christ is not 100% Love…

    He is Holy, He is Vengeful, He is Wrathful – hell, eternal hell is real…

    I rebuke you, you evil spirit of witchcraft and I command you to go in Jesus Name…

    We – those who know You – don’t want it here…

    We don’t want it “taking over”, trying to lull us into a false sense of security…

    Reveal Your Glory over this website Lord and exalt the Name of Jesus Alone…

    Let the Blood cover this website now in Jesus Name and expose all evil presencing itself here through any of us – burn in us Lord – and let us be consumed for Your Glory…

    Cut through Lord and give discernment to all Your own as to what You are doing here…

    Open the eyes of our spirits to see the spirit of rebellion – witchcraft – which is coming against Your word – Your clear word…

    Praise You Jesus…

    And let us all – who know You – stand in unity – as our brother Randall shares – on Your clear word…

    Thank You Jesus…

    Flattery will get you nowhere…

    Neither will accusation…

    I know your tactics and you are rebuked…

    You are an evil spirit and I rebuke you from this website…

    You have no right here…

    Go in the Name of Jesus…

  477. watchful May 7th 2013

    Andrew J, I read the link you gave me and am sorry about your issues with authority, and who doesn’t have issues of some kind or another in this life…..you know the longer I live the more I find that the “human condition” is pretty similar across the board to one degree or other…..reason being that we all have the same basic carnal nature. All I will respond is to remind that the answer to everything that ails us is the cross, there are no shortcuts, though we can be tempted to bypass the cross exactly as Jesus was in the wilderness, with promises of those things our flesh craves. What i’m finding is that the more of our flesh nature is crucified the more of our lives we find becomes submitted (I like the word yielded) to the Holy Spirit without any striving or effort on our part, and the less we take thought to ourselves. Although I think I’m beginning to see that there is still more to carrying that cross than I previously understood.

    As for Prophetic Intercession, that is a term I don’t find in the bible and so I can’t help but feel that it is a departure from the simplicity of Christ. I have to be honest and tell you that for me such terminology always raises a red flag.

  478. Marilyn Crow May 7th 2013

    Andrew Strom

    Do you agree with Andrew J. Horton`s behaviour to Watchful? re: `What I have seen in you Watchful….etc` He has said publically on this forum that he puts himself under your authority (as we all do if we desire to comment here regularily) Thus I (& others) would like to know what you think regarding his attitude.

    Accountability publically is needed as we seek to relate to each other meaningfully & graciously.


  479. May God bless you watchful… 🙂

  480. GaryB May 7th 2013


    What do you think about all of this occult that is now being called Christian?


  481. I am against all occult practices Gary, they are of the devil… 🙂

  482. DonaldN May 7th 2013

    An interesting quip…

    Allegedly, Charles Spurgeon invited D.L. Moody to speak at an event he hosted.
    Moody accepted and preached the entire time about the evils of tobacco, and why the Lord doesn’t want Christians to smoke.
    Spurgeon, a cigar smoker, was surprised at what seemed to be a cheap shot leveled by Moody, using the pulpit to condemn a fellow minister.
    When Moody finished preaching, Spurgeon walked up to the podium and said, “Mr. Moody, I’ll put down my cigars when you put down your fork.”
    Moody was overweight.

  483. GaryB May 7th 2013

    “The Chronicles of Narnia”:

    by Shaun Willcock

    A world-famous series of fantasy novels by C. S. Lewis, entitled The Chronicles of Narnia, are praised as “Christian allegory” in many ecclesiastical circles. Lewis himself is described in many of these circles as “the greatest Christian writer of the twentieth century.” And now the first book in the series, entitled The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, has been made into a blockbuster movie by Disney, apparently the first of a series of movies to be based on the Narnia novels. And “churches” have worked themselves up into a froth of excitement, convinced that this movie represents the greatest evangelistic opportunity since The Passion of the Christ. But as with that unscriptural Roman Catholic splatter-movie, so with this one: it just shows how biblically-illiterate and doctrinally confused vast numbers of churches are.

  484. GaryB May 7th 2013

    Facts About “The Chronicles of Narnia”

    Millions of “Evangelicals” (along with Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, etc.) claim that The Chronicles of Narnia are wonderful “Christian allegories”. Russ Bravo, development director for Christian Publishing and Outreach, said: “There are clear Christian parallels you can draw from the storyline” of the Narnia books. John Buckeridge, editor of Christianity Magazine, said: “There is a Christian parable in there”.[i] And the neo-evangelical, ecumenical Christianity Today magazine, when recommending the Narnia series, said: “In Aslan [the lion in the stories], Christ is made tangible, knowable, real”; and: “Christ came not to put an end to myth but to take all that is most essential in the myth up into himself and make it real.”[ii] To which last quotation we have only one response: Huh?

    What utter nonsense!

  485. GaryB May 7th 2013

    It has been reported that Lewis claimed he did not intend to write “Christian allegory” when he wrote The Chronicles of Narnia for children.[iii] But this is impossible to believe, for there are just so many parallels, albeit in a pagan setting, with certain elements of the Gospel. Lewis, as a man who claimed to be a Christian (even though, as shall be shown, he certainly was not a true one), was certainly well aware of the parallels. He knew exactly what he was doing.

    Here is the complete link to this occultic movie:


  486. GaryB May 7th 2013


    Why would you subject yourself to viewing the occult in these movies? There is volumes of information showing this movie is clearly full of the occult and paganism?


  487. May the Lord bless you Gary… 🙂

  488. GaryB May 7th 2013

    Andrew Horton

    I thought so. 🙂

    Its easy to condemn others and say you won’t speak to them because of their many sins but you refuse to explain why you watch shows with witches, magic, centaurs, where evil is glorified.

    It just seems like a contradiction here Brother. 🙂


  489. Roger (NZ) May 7th 2013

    Randall – re your question to me concerning a spirit – yes, others have discerned it as well.

  490. Lightning Storm May 7th 2013

    1Jo 4:8 KJV
    He that loveth NOT knoweth NOT God; for GOD IS LOVE.

    1Jo 4:16 KJV
    And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that DWELLETH IN LOVE DWELLETH IN GOD, AND GOD IN HIM.

  491. Kevin May 7th 2013

    Luk 9:46 An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest.

    Luk 9:47 But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side

    Luk 9:48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”

    Luk 9:49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.”

    Luk 9:50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

    What is important is that we worship and follow the same Lord Jesus Christ.

    Outward appearances , where and how we fellowship, along with our differing beliefs over the meaning of scrip, can cause much contention.

    The above verses demonstrate this.

    Unity comes from receiving the real risen Lord Jesus Christ.

    If we are in agreement at this foundational level, then our Lord Jesus Christ will sort out all the other differences.

  492. Andrew May 7th 2013

    Please, people – post in love and refrain from making “personal” remarks or attacks upon others.

    I think this thread needs to be wound up…..


    Andrew Strom

  493. Marilyn Crow May 7th 2013

    Andrew Strom,

    Thank you for your reply.As Joan W. said,
    `Put your mittens on & play nicely.` We truely miss her.


  494. Averyl May 7th 2013

    It takes true humility and obedience to the conviction of sin engendered by the Holy Spirit.to make confession and seek pardon from all we have led astray & wrongfully accused.

    The opposite is rebellion.

    We all sin/make mistakes.
    Praise God for the cleansing blood of the Lamb and for His Holy Spirit who enables us to grow in Him.

    We must never think that we have made it or arrived.

  495. Roger (NZ) May 7th 2013

    Amen Kevin

  496. Averyl May 7th 2013

    “By this shall all man know that you are My disciples, – that you have love one for another.”

  497. Lightning Storm May 7th 2013

    Amen. Kevin

  498. Roger (NZ) May 7th 2013

    A Robin Mark song, “All for Jesus” – an ‘oldie’ that speaks to my spirit – I share this with you all in His love


  499. HHHLGA May 7th 2013

    Philippians 4:

    1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

    2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

    3 And I entreat thee also, true yoke fellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.

    4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

    5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

    6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

    7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

    May He keep our hearts in the night watches, as meditate upon Him.

  500. Lightning Storm May 7th 2013

    AMEN AMEN! Roger. That song was a real blessing and the video was amazing. Thanks for sharing.

  501. watchful May 7th 2013

    BUT leaven starts small, sensuality starts to replace truth,
    human emotions being run by a dark power begin replaceing
    truth with mens reasonings.
    IT becomes a relationship NOT based on truth
    but based on good relationshipes etc
    BUDDISTS have GOOD hugging relationships with the world and others, YET HAVE NOT the truth
    many can do that. its easy to hug a person, YET STILL NOT BE FOLLWING TRUTH. the sensual spirit
    then gets worse and worse
    and it becomes focused on WHAT would offend
    , take that out, what or how it would affect, and omit that.
    ITS the devil, taking GODS rebukes and holy living
    and righteous acts and hiding the SEVERITY OF GOD
    to create a new version. BUT IT STARTS small, ever so small.

    Amen Randall.

    I have called it a “cult” spirit, that’s just my description for it but think it is very much the new age strong delusion you have been warning about. I saw it happen to people at Toronto and once that happens it’s like a brick wall, and at that point I think there is nothing to do but pray and hope and wait on God. And of course do what we can to not let others or ourselves be deceived.

  502. watchful May 7th 2013

    Beautiful song Roger, one of the good ones!

    Bless you Marilyn, and don’t worry about me…..kept by Jesus, truly, truly. I believe there are others more in need of our concern and prayers… Love what Joan said about playing nice with our mittens on! Good night all!

  503. Kevin May 7th 2013

    Yes Randall, the passage watchful has quoted from you above is a very real problem

    This spirit comes to impress and flatter us , often with its words of super spiritual encounters and visions , all wrapped up in false humility, seeking to gain our approval.

  504. Kevin May 7th 2013

    Roger , may your post of the song above be like a bridge over troubled waters

  505. Roger (NZ) May 7th 2013

    I hope so Kevin – brings our focus back to the One who is most important..eh..

    Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

  506. David Marsh May 7th 2013

    Richard said:

    “You so rightly said, the Word of God is revealed, not excavated! I’ve been a digger of the word, for a long time, and backed off! Now I ask, Father, in Jesus Name I come, what is my portion for this day, please?

    Then, it is the Book that studies me. It is the Book that judges me as no man may. It is the Book that illumines my entire being. Then I know, this is my Father speaking to me, through Jesus His Son, and in the Holy Spirit. It is not an academic exercise, no theology degree will come to me (who wants it?) no accolades from my academic peers. No thank you! ”

    What a marvelous explanation of:
    2 Corinthians 3:6
    ..who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

    The Spirit first gave us the Word. The Word helps us to understand the Spirit. Then when we understand Him a little, the Spirit speaks through the Word so that we may really get to know Him. The ultimate, life in Christ – by His Spirit.

    God bless you


  507. Zululander May 7th 2013

    All the posts show how very different we are. Go round & round the same issues endlessly. As soon as we differ a little we tend to attack. We struggle to submit…..Maybe that’s the real reason were not in a church.
    Lack of humility maybe? Were all imperfect & need each other in a place where we can learn patience & submission

  508. Kevin May 7th 2013


    I gather you have recovered from your sharks having their teeth pulled out by a flightless bird

  509. Zululander May 7th 2013

    Kevin the way I feel right now I could live on shark meat & take up netball.

    What all the posts show mostly to me is how one can use a scripture verse or two to justify almost anything.
    GOD said study, not me.
    Too many people just read it & form an opinion. I don’t even need to be saved to do that.
    Some of us are more spiritual & smarter than all the great reformers & even some of the apostles.
    I challenge you lone rangers to sit, with an honest open heart & good attitude with a real bible teacher & discuss your differences. I can guarantee you, you will come away with a different opinion.

  510. Kevin May 7th 2013


    I believe that much of the problem comes in that online fellowship is not often relationship based.

    If we are using the Internet to have contact with people we have formed a Christ based relationship with , it seems to work well, however as I posted on a previous thread , what we often do here is like trying to hold a home group at the Colosseum while the gladiators are fighting.

    It is very difficult to maintain the grace, love and authority of Lord Jesus Christ , in a some what anonamus open public place like this.

  511. GaryB May 7th 2013

    Andrew Strom,

    My apologies Brother. I’m not personally trying to attack AJH. I have fellowshipped with this brother on another site.

    In fact I like the guy he has been a blessing to me. But I am trying to show him that we should not excommunicate someone who has a different opinion then us. He has told several people he is no longer going to speak to them, why?, because they have a different opinion.

    The Bible teaches excommunication, but its in cases of gross sexual sin, heresy, etc. etc..

    Were not to write each other off because someone has a different opinion on the end times, or a brother or sister at this time in his or her life is without a church.

    AJH is young, very zealous, as I said he has been a blessing to me.

    Andrew Horton I hope you still consider me a friend. 🙂 I just thought no one is your enemy here.

    And I do believe the occult is being slowly intertwined into things that people are calling Christian.

    GaryB 🙂

  512. GaryB May 7th 2013

    To all here,

    Believe me, if I could find a church in my area where I could be in fellowship with other saints I would be very blessed.

    We live in a rural area and I have visited a lot of churches around here. Mainly we have a lot of social clubs, (denominations), or the groups that are laughing.

    Do I join in with the TB supporters and act like nothing is going on?
    One guy told me I should go on Friday nights that’s when things are really happening. I was afraid to ask what was going on there. 🙂

    At this time there is no meeting within a two hour radius of us.

    Please pray for me as well as for others here that currently have no place to go to worship with other believers is all I can ask.

    The last place I attended I thought I would be a little mouse and just look the other way when something was not right.

    There was so much on going on that I realized this is not a church to be at. Social drinking, football, motorcycles, movies and vacations, was the main theme in everyones life there. Very nice people but not much fellowship in the Lord, if you no what I mean.

    The Lord knows I am not exaggerating here.


  513. Marilyn Crow May 7th 2013

    Gary B.

    My heart goes out to you & your wife.(?) Like Watchful you can teach us all of persevering faith. You are in our prayers.


  514. fabakary May 7th 2013

    Brothers and Sisters let us not fall under the temptation in any sense of the word, to dis value our call to walk in Love in all things, because of some counterfeits or some sinners doing like that.
    Our responsibility is to please our Lord, not because the sinners also do this or that.
    I know of sinners here who will not commit adultery or fornication , should I commit fornication or Adultery because some sinners do not do it ?
    Jesus is Truth and bring forth truth , but He loved the world that he bring forth the truth that He was willing to die for them .
    Apostle Paul says He was willing to die for his own countrymen if that will bring there salvation , because of Love. I learn that almost all the apostle were martyr . If they had only Truth , without Love they will not be willing to lay there Lives to die for others , those that they are giving the truth.
    The question that we should ask in all honesty is , that brother or sister so and so that I am trying to correct . teach or giving him truth, do I love him/her so much that I will be willing to lay down my lives for him or her ? Maybe we will then realize it is possible we did not even Love him or her in the lest sense of the word. Before we liberate others , God want too see us first liberated through His love working in us. If the Father did not love the world He will not have allow His son to die for the world. God will not send us to liberate or help anyone , who we did not Love , such works are the works of our own wisdom and human energy. If I am speaking and trying to correct this brother mainly because of some bitterness, hate etc it is not God who is sending me, that’s just the works of the flesh. Lets be careful.

  515. Wow, didn’t see that one coming, I forgive you Gary, I have nothing against you brother, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂

  516. I sense from your comments that you and I have a lot in common in the Lord Zululander, Lots of shared experiences I suspect, Love in the Lord, Andrew… 🙂