-by J. Lee Grady

Have you encountered any spiritual flakes in your church?

When the Holy Spirit comes in His fullness, people receive
miraculous anointing, remarkable boldness, overflowing joy
and irresistible enthusiasm. Yet because we are all bent
toward sin and selfishness, many people who experience the
Holy Spirit’s raw power sometimes also act weird. Their flesh
gets in the way, and they misuse the gifts of the Spirit.

I’ve seen this happen oftentimes during prayer ministry times
at a church altar. Because of poor training and a lack of mature
leadership, things can get wacky when people come to the front
of the auditorium for ministry. If this flakiness isn’t immediately
corrected, visitors will stop coming and your church will get a
bad reputation.

Here are seven people you should never allow to be in a ministry
position in your church:

1. Bulldozer Bertha. If this woman decides to pray for you at the
altar, put one foot in front of the other, hold onto a chair and
brace yourself. She intends to push you to the floor, one way or another…

2. Shonda Wanda. I appreciate the gift of speaking in tongues,
and there is a time and place for this gift in a church meeting.
But it is not appropriate for a person to scream in tongues while
they are ministering to someone at the altar…
(see 1 Corinthians 14:18-19).

3. Lascivious Larry… Prayer ministers should be
carefully trained on what kind of touch is appropriate during
ministry times. We must have a zero tolerance policy for those
who grope in the name of Jesus.

4. Freak-Out Frances. It’s a fact: Some people just act plain
weird when they feel the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Some
shake, others vibrate, others shriek or make birthing noises.
I don’t believe we should allow prayer ministers to carry on like
this at the altar. The people who are entrusted with the job of
praying for others should minister with gentleness and
self-control. You will scare and confuse people if you are
flailing your arms, jerking your torso or acting as if you have
a nervous tic while you pray for them. This kind of immature
behavior squelches the Holy Spirit.

5. Shrill Bill. The gift of prophecy can be a wonderful blessing-or
it can be a total turn-off when the person prophesying is out of

6. Slick Rick… I’ve seen some prayer ministers get so carried away
with the oil that the poor people they were praying for left the
church slimier than a pasta salad. A dab of anointing oil is

7. Groovy Greta… We’ve all been
in situations where someone performed an awkward
“praise dance” that should have been screened before it ended
up on the church’s live webcast. Don’t allow the holy worship of
God to be tainted by people who are selfishly seeking attention.

I believe we charismatics are entering a new season in which
God is raising the bar and calling us to a higher level of maturity.
We must put away “childish hings” (see 1 Cor. 13:11) and
embrace not only the Holy Spirit’s gifts but His fruit as well. Let’s
reject the flaky, the goofy and the weird and choose an
authentic spirituality that honors God and respects the people
we are called to reach for Christ.



Posted in Uncategorized by Andrew on June 25th, 2014 at 10:21 am.


64 Replies

  1. stephen boyce Jun 25th 2014

    too many false pastors in the church especially using kundalini

  2. I couldn’t agree more: A few yrs back I was teleported into another dimension via (healing on the streets) there was a strange frequency all the lights went dim people froze and time seized it was although a piatzo ignition went off in my head (pineal) my consciousness (spirit) was released back into the field of oneness my body was full of light then the complete darkness with vision to follow .. When I enquired what the hell happened they would not even talk with me about this .. I question everything now .. God made Man BUT Man made Religion ..

  3. Darren Sargent Jun 25th 2014

    The tone and tenor of this ‘article’ does not sit right with me. Much to be commended as usual from Lee, and it is quite commonsensical but . . . I wonder if it conceals a deeper problem. Let me think on it.

  4. Sharon Jun 25th 2014

    Come let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before our God our maker.
    The article may be about the “modern” church, not the true worshipers.

  5. Jeanne Jun 25th 2014

    It’s about time these ‘charismatics’ became mature.
    These antics are not Holy Spirit led…Get back to the Word instead of feelings and self….Thank God that someone can see through this who is part of this ‘movement’.

  6. Lee wrote, “I believe we charismatics are entering a new season in which
    God is raising the bar”… Really? Rather, God has ALWAYS been commanding repentance and demanding spiritual maturity and responsibility. We must stop it with this “new season” foolishness!

    Foundationally, the premises are not aligned with the Word of God. Whatever behavior is acceptable at “the altar” should also be required by all the other saints, there are not two rules, but one. This is not a show, but the Spirit. Is given to every member to edify, teach, build up, etc, in gentleness. We must teach babe to obey what Christ has commanded and to discern the spirits. This article sickens me in that it makes allowance for abhorant behavior as long as it’s not the “front man”.

  7. Im sure god uses even things like this to teach us desernment we all need it these days 🙂 blessings

  8. His Truth is marching on Jun 25th 2014

    As Jeff is pointing out, the gospel has never changed….we are the ones who keep departing from the simplicity of it. The harvest has never been in the churches….it is out in the highways and biways where the church is supposed to GO. Why do we continually keep preaching and ministering to the choir when it is the world that is lost? Altar…?…as a former catholic, that sounds familiar……….but it just goes to show you what religion keeps leading back to. Come out of her my people!

  9. This was a great article. I thought it was well done. Thank you for it.

    May I add talkative Tess: I have been guilty of this; not allowing the Holy Spirit to curb my conversation during prayer or times when I would like to ‘witness’ of the Saviour. It’s very upsetting to know I may have turned someone away from Christ.

  10. biblical guidelines for us to follow. Our instructions as ministers is to keep everything decent and in order…and not allow confusion to be disruptive in our altar services.

  11. Bob Macias Jun 25th 2014

    In 45 years of serving the Lord, I’ve seen it all. Or maybe not. The Church, especially in North America, has embraced the heresy of holy flesh. A veneer of Godliness motivated by the desires of the flesh.

    We are going to see greater apostacy and false teaching as the Lord’s return draws near. And it will be clothed in charismatic freedom and license.

    As a charismatic myself, it sickens my soul to see abuse and self interest in the use of the Gifts.

  12. I do not believe it is appropriate to speak in tongues while praying for anyone. If you read 1 Cor 14 it plainly states that tongues spoken in a service is for the unbeliever and needs to be accompanied with an interpretaton.

    A good example of this would be if there is a visitor from say Uganda come to your Church who has doubts then the following might occure.

    A member who has never been to Uganda may begin speaking in perfect Swahili, then another individual who does NOT know Swahili would give the interpretation and it would be the testamony of Christ, and the impact upon the visitior would be a having had a personal visitation from the Holy Spirit.

    There is a time for all believers, especially ministers, to set aside time so that they may pray in the Spirit so that they may build themselves up in their most Holy faith.


  13. I say Amen to your comments. Over the years of being a pastor, and even prior, I have encountered every thing you mention, and more. I think Paul would have much teaching and instruction to do in services today.

  14. If a greater emphasis was placed on the fruit of the Holy Spirit in a peoples lives we wouldn’t see as many works of the flesh or the demonic manifesting.
    We will be judged by the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives and the fruitfullness of our labours in others (the gifts help us in our labours to bear fruit but they are not the fruit).
    We are called to be a Holy people led by and filled with the Holy Spirit.

    [email protected] promises.com

  15. Sue Walsh Jun 25th 2014

    Nadab and Abihu’s strange fire? Because they did what the Father had not commanded them?

    Result:.fire went out and devoured them as they did it their way.

    But the self appointed ‘leaders’ did not learn. The children of Israel still looked to a leader to take them back to Egyptian ways. So out popped Korah, Dathan and Abiram. They rose up before Moses. The Father told Moses and Aaron, who were prophet and priest combined or a prototype Yeshua, to tell them to get away from those mens’ tents as they were flowing in ‘do it yourself’ rebellion.

    Result: a hole opened up, plagues descended and fire consumed them. 100s died.

    The reason was quite simple they were still rejecting the commands or Mitzvot of the Father, they looked to unclean leaders who stood between them and the altar thus preventing them from going to the Father in repentance for themselves.

    Coming out of her or Babylon means aligning ourselves with the Father and His will. It means listening to Him for ourselves. We have listened for too long to defective leaders and the Father is giving us a huge wake up call.

    We are on the very threshold of being the bride who marries her groom and we are being shown we will be judged harshly if we continue to follow the shepherds who lead us astray. If we continue we wont make it into the wedding tent, as idolatry goes against the first command: You shall have no other gods ( including man) before me.

    Psalm 23 has a whole different dimension when we grasp that: The Lord is My ( personal) shepherd, I shall not want. He leads me beside the still waters, He restores my soul.

    We are in a dark hour. The choice is simple: come out of any pyramidal structure or we remain outside the gates of the city as idolaters. Do we trust His word?



  16. liz448 Jun 25th 2014

    This is a very interesting article because of what has been going on in my life recently.

    First I must say that I was never an attention seeker. Dying to my flesh was a core value inculcated in me, in my fellowship in my native country. We were also taught to think of other people before ourselves – a core value in walking in the Love of God.

    I have thus always been very conscious of others around me in ministry, that I would ask them if my praise bothered them, if I felt I could have been louder than what I would normally be.

    The Lord called me several years ago to be His Battleaxe. I did not fully understand at the time what it meant, but I began to have revelation about intercession in awesome ways and how my entire body was an instrument not only of worship but also of intercession.See Isaiah 30, Psalm 147. It would be like “put your hands out and walk down the isle,” and I would return and a person would be manifestly healed after the service when I prayed for them.

    Last summer I began to shake very powerfully when the Presence of the Lord would be present. In my flesh I must honestly tell you, I would not have desired to be that way, especially because I was always the ONLY person to who that happened. I have begun to talk to the Lord about it, but I cannot continue because I know it is of the Lord.The scripture that gives me understanding is Isaiah 30:32 – the Word that the Lord will fight with battles of “shaking.”

    Because of what I have seen, I have an issue with people control over what they think is not of the Lord. There has been so much “control” over the “not intelligent” things that happen, if it were of the Lord, the church should have been exploding in the Lord’s Authority and Power. It takes one person, like Eliyahu (Elijah) walking with the Lord and he or she can change a nation, and Elijah was not born again into the Family of God to be as Jesus is – one with Father. See 1John 4:17.

    Before the tsunami that affected Japan, the Lord told me that I had power to move the earth on its axis. It was too much “over my head” that I just let it pass, not thinking about it. When it was reported that the earth moved on its axis with that tsunami, I then began to think about what the Lord told me.

    (I praise and worship and intercede much in Tongues, where I am conscious of my Oneness with Father and His Perfect Peace directing me, but may not always have a desire to know the meaning of what I am saying or doing in English. I was called of the Lord (not by man) to be a Prophet to the Nations. The Lord used the word “prophet” even though I am a woman. I understood the significance of being a Son and Heir in that statement, as I knew the Lord would know “gender” usage in language.)

  17. liz448 Jun 25th 2014

    Sue Walsh, I cannot agree with you more.

    The pyramid structure of leadership is historically rooted in the control structure of the Roman Empire with the church service of the liturgy etc. being the ritual in the roman emperor’s court, the emperor considered the high priest of the roman gods.

    At the time that was put together it was around 300 years after the Yeshua had left the earth. The early followers of the Lord were regarded as a sect of the Jews, who did not align with the roman dominated (historically known as very corrupt) Jewish leadership at the time. They were never regarded as a distinct group with a different religion until the roman catholic structure came in with a religion that included pagan practices.

    Matthew 23:8-10 repeats the way of Father, where each person seeks Father for his or her direction and life. Also Hebrews 8:10, where we are told that the Word (Law or Mitzvot) of Father is in our heart, so that we will know His Will.

  18. There is another serious caution about having someone pray over you in tongues. If it is in known language it would require an interpretation, but if it is in an UNKNOWN tongue how do you know what they are ministering to you or someone else.

    This is especially dangereous if the person praying is layng their hands on the recipent and they are then IMPARTING something and you don’t know what it is. The laying on of hands is a part of the Doctrine of Christ, but praying for another in tongues is not listed.


  19. Sue Walsh Jun 25th 2014

    Yes Liz, all those who keep Christmas, Easter and Sunday worship are aligned to pagan practice and are in rebellion because they follow a leadership who have taken away from and added to the word. As you say in AD 331 Constantine’s Council of Nicea changed the word and it is written the Father never changes. Keeping the Sabbath is a sure sign of His covenant people.


  20. Verbal Vera. Turns prayer ministry to one person into a 30 barrage of uninterrupted wisdom and advice.

  21. kelly joel weiler Jun 25th 2014

    All the advice and observation given in this article of “7 people” is well to give heed to. I would challenge however that to take this to it’s absolute, which it seems to rather extreme already do, is also to invite err, and ban the Holy Spirit who, when He moves on various individuals, well, I’ve been through many of the revivals of the past 35 years, and experience has shown me that it’s just not all perfectly tidy, and cannot be kept ‘perfect’, without basically shutting down the whole thing. Over control is as great an enemy as fleshy response, and often more so an enemy of God moving through and upon imperfect people.

    Pastoring the move of the Spirit is a delicate operation. If it is not done well, the people and the Spirit are easily quenched. I myself when leading have done this quenching, and it leaves bitter and long lasting ‘bad’ fruit. To see the heart of people and not their flailing arms or jerking or whatever, this is the important thing. I have observed over decades of walking among God’s people in many settings, that there just are very few perfectly balanced people. You add the Holy Spirit to ten times the boring norm, and that lack of perfection is just going to come out. What are you going to do? let only the STAID and laid back, absolutely harmless looking individuals pray and minister.

    Another thing, is that it does indeed take some powerfully shaking glorious things to move things that have laid stubbornly in people for years. The ‘weird’ people we so may deem them, seem often to be the exact ones who are bold and abandoned enough in the Holy Spirit (not the flesh, that’s not what I mean), well, these are the ones who often step out and right off the high dive board to move things significantly. Pastoring all this takes more than a ‘natural’ man to pastor, but prophetic and heart felt wisdom, and a balanced individual helping all through all these things.

  22. One of the fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL………that is usually the tiniest fruit on the tree in most gatherings…..

  23. ..One of the fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL………that is usually the tiniest fruit on the tree in most gatherings…

  24. ValleyAnt Jun 25th 2014

    Darren Sargent, I agree with you. You won’t have to think long on this article, hopefully; it conceals a much deeper problem. Grady is doing what the best Charismatic Christian can do: point out flaws in the Charismatic but not heal it with Jesus Christ.

    Sharon, you’re right: the article is about how to make Christianity today better; it has nothing to do with the real worshipers God is seeking or the real Church.

    Jeff, I agree with you: there is no ‘season’; maturity is now and always has been. Charismatic talk is dead and brings no Charismatic even any Life. Grady is promoting ‘Southern Christianity’ where hearts aren’t changed but the focus is on ‘propriety’ and proper Christian conduct.

    Sue, I heard of MacArthur’s ‘Strange Fire’ which the Charismatics made much ado about, and I believed that it was satan stirring things up through the book… but there was a time in Israel in which two Books of the Bible record that it was God AND satan who stirred King David to do an evil thing and take a census of Israel after which a plague from God swept down three days, killing about 74,000 Israelis because of David’s disobedience. I now must take a look at ‘Strange Fire’ and read it for myself to determine if it was both God and satan (or just one or the other) who have ‘sent’ this book into the public eye regarding the strange fire of the abomination of Charismatic Christianity today.

  25. ValleyAnt Jun 25th 2014

    Bob Macias, I agree with you: greater apostasy will come from the charismatic than the evangelical. Charismatic is now synonymous with Death. When the Lord told me to specifically leave a Charismatic-Prophetic church (and overall the institutional churches) and said that I should seek Him and He would lead me to genuine fellowship, I went back to churches for not finding fellowship outside it. Then the Lord said to me as the angels said to those seeking Jesus at the tomb, “Why do you seek the living among the dead?” He called the overall institutional churches dead (and in particular the Charismatic churches hell-focused on gifts, gifts, gimme, gimme, gimme) and proved in the Scriptures that I was hearing Him correctly. While evangelical churches appear dead to many people, Charismatic churches are generally more dead, because unlike evangelical churches, Charismatic churches believe they are more alive than alive itself: to them Jesus would say as He did to the church in Revelation, “You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” I think Charismatic churches are more dead than Evangelical churches because where Evangelicals simply believe they have it right, Charismatic churches look at the Death in their hands and then say, “This is Life.” “You have a name (reputation, belief) that you are alive, but you are dead.” Evangelical churches don’t have a reputation for being alive; they major on being right, not alive. Charismatic churches, however, major on being alive (“To hell with being right,” they think as they sip their Starbucks); their reputation is all about being side by side with Jesus Himself, running with Him in ministry, alive in the gifts, etc. But they are dead, and because they believe they are more alive than the Evangelicals, they are actually more dead. As you said, they call the things of the flesh (and soul) holy; Evangelicals are not guilty of calling what is unholy holy.

  26. ValleyAnt Jun 25th 2014

    Liz448, I cannot disagree with you more. Dying to the flesh may be traditionally planted in a person, but it is never natural, common, nor inviting… It isn’t fun, therefore, most people don’t just go looking to die.

    You have to also be careful of ‘personal prophecies’; these are really meant to be given in a personal or intimate setting (i.e. not publicly). The Bible says to test all prophecies– which doesn’t just mean words from supposed prophets but words from God which is what it really means to prophesy (to speak the truth from God which even an unsaved person– like Balaam and King Cyrus– can do). Supposed ‘personal prophecies’ given in public forums (which are already suspect since you can’t call public private and private public– a personal/private prophecy is usually if not always to be given in private by those you are personally acquainted with… those who already know you in Christ) should already be suspect. The Lord showed me how a five words that sounded just like God which I received in ’07 were not from Him but were false words. Words telling you you will be a battle-axe, a prophet, a minister to the nations should be closely scrutinized. God doesn’t normally talk like that, especially in front of others (except He is ‘anointing (affirming or blessing) you in the midst of your brethren’ as He did with David– something He, however, rarely does… so there go personal prophecies that make people look great before others instead of speaking to them personal– in a private place).

    If you’re being led to walk down the aisle and then heal or you’re shaking when God’s presence supposedly comes on you, those are things you MUST test (if you want to know the truth; most people who have these experiences want to believe they are from God and prefer not to scrutinize/test them too closely to their own detriment). God works in community or inter-relatedness: He will not lead one person to do what He isn’t leading anyone else to do; therefore, if you are in a church and each person is being led to do differently, then it is probably not the Lord. Also, if you are ‘shaking powerfully’ when God’s presence comes on you and you are the only one, you need to question that too. Evil spirits posing as God (posing as the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, the Shekinah glory, the Manifest Presence, God) can be winnowed out pretty easily by their intention to, while you are in a Christian setting, make you feel special or loved or ‘beloved’ or unique or called, etc. They want you to feel that God has a special love for you, and by that, they snare a lot of people in deception. You have to continue talking to the Lord about it and testing it, not stopping because you ‘know it is the Lord’.

    I was in Charismatic churches and received impartations of all kinds of false things– visions, dreams, spiritual guidance, false Holy Spirit, trances, revelations, etc.– things from satan and not God. For several years, these spirits misdirected me in the most clever ways; it was only the fact I compared my circumstances with the Bible and refused to stop investigating till I found the truth that I began to learn how to distinguish the holy from the unholy. While Charismatics seek gifts of the Spirit, they are not aware that it is the fruits of the Spirit, not the gifts, that will save them from satan’s deceptions in these last days. Many who prophesied and did miracles and great things will hear, “I never knew you”, because they trusted gifts rather than fruits (i.e. the Lord Himself) to save them. I’ve learned a lot about the operation of these ‘Charismatic spirits’, and they, sentenced to eternity in torment, are not playing games; they are at work to deceive and destroy completely anyone they can. You should return and look at those prophetic words, feelings, ‘impressions’, experiences, and revelations you’ve received to see whether or not they are from the Lord. You would be surprised how satan can interpose himself as the Lord even while you are praying or seeking God. The days are evil (deceptive, dangerous); but a love of truth will save you from all error.

  27. Andrew Jun 25th 2014

    I agree with those who think this may not be Lee’s “best” work on this subject, but still some good advice contained in it – and overall some valuable points made.

    Blessings to all,


  28. Andrew Jun 25th 2014

    By the way, I certainly support the use of “tongues” quietly when praying for people. Done quietly this is very powerful and very important.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  29. Ted Pulfer Jun 25th 2014

    Hi, I’ve been a Christian since 1980 and I’ve seen some really weird behaviour in the church. So much so that I’ve questioned whether it was the Holy Spirit at all. I’ve seen brand new ‘seekers’ get up and bolt out of the meeting because of the so called manifestation of the Spirit. Paul was quite firm in his assessment of how a church meeting should be conducted and what I’ve witnessed confirms he was right. People rolling and writhing on the floor giggling and laughing out loud while the Pastor is praying for a cancer patient for instance, or reading a section of scripture relevant to his sermon. This is not an environment for a new seeker to feel comfortable in.

  30. ValleyAnt Jun 25th 2014

    Andrew, I would have to say that Grady’s only good points are good only for preschoolers in Christ– those who are not even yet Christians. Jesus wants heart transformation and preached the same, Paul laboring so that Jesus Christ would be formed in his spiritual children, not so they would observe ‘Christian propriety’. ‘Nice’ and ‘kind’ are two different things: the former is often not from the heart, rule-based (“Be nice to your sister”), and very temporary; the latter is from the heart, based on Grace (a kind person is always ‘above’ the one to whom he shows kindness, therefore the kindness is always a show of Grace, a free will gift from the giver to the recipient), and is more permanent and can be eternal. Grady is basically telling Christians in error to ‘perform better so you can all be acceptable and fit in’ rather than seeking a change of heart that causes Christians to “do all things in an orderly way”. They sound similar but are different. Charismatic Christianity has a lot to do with fitting in, social class systems, etc.; therefore, its motives and messages proceed from the same mindset: it says, “Do things the right way so you will be acceptable” rather than “Do what is good because you were saved for that purpose.”

    We don’t need any more ministers hiding behind the skirts of American Christianity while telling others to “do it right” if they themselves aren’t doing it right. American Christians need to acquire boldness (at least inquire about it since it is apparently almost totally extinct among leaders in this country) and speak out of it instead of pretending to be bold but having decided in their hearts– based on the social expectations and societal standards of America: the fear of man– to not follow God because they are afraid of what others will think of them. Throw it out. King Saul was afraid of man too, and God rejected him. Finding a minister in Western nations, especially America, who is not bound and operating from the fear of man and fear of what everyone else and society and milk-washed, perfectly groomed Christianity expects of them is a real challenge. Jesus said it was hard for Saul to kick against the goads; it seems almost as hard to find ministers today who will kick against the cords and chains that they, their families, society and superficial friends and followers have placed on them. If Grady is going to preach the truth, then let him preach it; but ‘be nice’ Christianity has nothing to do with the Man Jesus Christ but is pleasing to the self-centered, the spiritual babes, and even the unsaved. And that’s what Grady is preaching in the above article: “Be nice, be quiet, stay in your place, all things done neatly and tidily.” Fear-based and fear-bound, it can never make a difference for Jesus Christ or measure up to the work He accomplished on the Cross and at the resurrection and ascension. It doesn’t even change minds; how can it change lives.

  31. Andrew Jun 26th 2014

    Yes – a “Corinthians” type problem.

    Carnality and rampant immaturity.



  32. Only one incorrect assumption amongst sound advice from Grady

    “we charismatics are entering a new season… (The new season is not new, it is the old, the “faith one delivered”)… in which God is *”raising the bar” and calling us to a higher level of maturity.”
    *As far as the bar is concerned the level is set in the NT scriptures. God is not raising anything “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” Rather man in his wisdom never saw how high it actually is. or talked it down, because of his immaturity, pride, lust, et al.

    Mat. 5 48 is a commandment of Jesus.

    Andrew is correct. To pray quietly with a brother in the Spirit “tongues” has ended many a disputation and problem – a powerful ministry one to another bringing blessing, victory.

    In the church meeting audible tongues should always be accompanied with interpretation, two or, at the most three, in turn, other wise remain silent “unheard”
    Pr Michael

  33. :”God is not raising anything” Wrong!
    :”God is not raising the bar” Correct!
    Pr Michael

  34. … It sounds like a good start.

  35. J Lee, it is good that you seek to address what is commonly referred to as ‘excesses’ or some other similar term in the meetings. But what ever happened to the word ‘SIN’?
    We all have been seriously guilty before the Holy one of Israel, the God of Heaven and earth.
    Thank God for conviction of sin, and for repentance, confession of sin and, that we must have a unshakeable commitment to do only what pleases Jesus Christ.

    He is the Head of His assembly. He is the one who walks in the midst of the assembly watching with intensity through eyes like as of flaming fire, all that goes on in among His people – 24/7..

    These facts alone should be enough to shake us to the core of our being and cause us to indeed fall down before Him in full life long submission, and stop fooling around.

    Such behaviours as you list as undesirable in the meetings are an abomination to the Most High God. Such workers of iniquity operating in the name of the Lord will perish unless they repent. God has commanded that we must repent. Acts 17: 30..
    You are far too easy on sin. We all have been far too easy on sin. Hell is the reward of sinners (unholy ones); Heaven is the reward of saints (holy ones). We must choose. We must be and live holy for God is holy.
    Jesus said the children of this world are more wise in their things than the children of the kingdom (of God) are concerning their things. Imagine the eye surgeon being as soft on cataracts in a patient’s eyes with his laser beam as we are with our soft approach on sin.
    Or the surveyor with their laser pinpointing instruments for structural engineering as we are concerning sin.

    Say it with love and tears, and all the grace of God, but say it hard; don’t fluff about with smooth words (I am sure you do not mean to be). The Word of God is sharper than any man made thing; don’t blunt it with soft words.
    God makes no room in His kingdom for the tiniest bit of iniquity or rebellion. Why do we in the house?
    Thank God for Jesus and His shed blood by which we may be cleansed from all such filth. Let us go on to perfection – IN HOLINESS, WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD.

  36. I don’t know about other people, but I found this hilarious! Simply because, I have seen so many people like this in the church! These things is what turns people like me off about Charismatic churches. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman, always. He is represented as a Dove in Scripture. What does a dove do? At the least bit of loudness and rumbling, he flees!! I wish the people in the “churches” would grow up and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit and stop acting so “spiritual”…Flesh is no good for nothing…But, I do love the true moving of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately I don’t see much of it in the churches now-days. To much falseness from the self appointed pastors, and the dumb sheep. Their mostly into seeing signs and wonders, than true worshiping of Almighty God. Their signs and wonders, they are seeing is not from God 95% of the time…very sad.

  37. Wish I could just go along, but the tone in the piece is a bit too comedic for the subject it deals with. I sound like a Debbie-Downer, I know. Other than that, it is true that some people do behave like that and what Lee Grady says is insightful.

    It’s just that the Holy Spirit of God is holy, sacred beyond our imaginations and just discussing it in magazines like any other subject, needs a delicate balance. God is awesome and fearful and His Spirit is pure and can be grieved. I think that our christian culture has watered down the omnipotence, awesomeness and fearsomeness of a Holy God, brought Him down to our level in discussion and commentary. The cyber magazine culture, complete with commentary, feels wrong to me, especially when discussing the things of God; and I’m guilty of engaging in it too, but is it right?

    Christian magazines that give impression they are truly saved believers, take away that impression when they bring politics and contentious subjects up, seeking commentary, which always brings extremely angry people setting an atmosphere of unholiness (especially when writing about who is a ‘real’ christian or not, and spreading possible falsehoods about politicians, who they deem “Muslim-oriented” – basically condemning and shamelessly judging people’s hearts. It just turns into heated debates and the love of God is miles away.

    The Lamb of God and Lion of Judah being discussed like death and taxes is what scares me about what is happening. Maybe pastoral advice about church propriety should be given in an assembly of believers, and not written in a profit-driven medium. The ‘how-to’s or 5 or 8 or 10 ways to be this or that sounds like the world’s magazines, like 10 ways to make your man happy, etc. etc.

    Am I the only one who feels like our church elders and leaders are going a little crazy giving out so much information and advice and our heads are getting filled with too much clutter. The Bible is the only soother of our souls and sometimes it’s good to withdraw completely and utterly in it and drown out the many many articles on what to do and what not to do. And there are so many agreements and disagreements, it gets the soul weary.

    Don’t want to offend anyone. I am doing a reality check and surmising how much outside input my mind can take these days, with so many doctines and suggestions and arguments and ‘who is saved and who is not saved’.

    Please come quickly, Lord Jesus.

  38. Andrew Jun 26th 2014

    Yes – I agree.

    The tone of this piece could have been better.

    Sorry, Lord.



  39. Charles Jun 26th 2014

    There are at least 3 more you left off for me #1 would be to have loud inaudible singing by ar least 10 people on a raised stage and music with ear piercing drums (of Molech) and a great worship leader with a microphone that is 100 desibles above a jet engine and # 9 a video screen that shows a close up of the lead singers tonsils and # 10 a giant clock that counts down like a display on a microwave with an alarn whe the script time is over

  40. Simon the sorcerer could have made the list too. The church has a reputation for being into the occult.

  41. Good clarification Valley Ant. Thank you. The Way, The Truth, The Life

  42. Cassie Jun 26th 2014

    It seemed like he was saying that these people need to curb how they act or come into a greater maturity while employing the gifts. I look at it totally different. I don’t think we’re dealing with fleshly novices. I believe much of these actions are from completely different spirits altogether. The Holy Spirit is not a disruptive or domineering force. When we see these manifestations, I think we should call out who is really behind them not tell the person to manage their behavior/”gifts” better.

  43. Andrew Jun 26th 2014

    Truly “weird” or ‘sick’ manifestations?

    Sadly I have to agree with you, Cassie.



  44. Darren Sargent Jun 26th 2014

    I’ve thought about it now . . . and read all your posts.

    I did have a good sense that together we have the mind of Christ(1 Cor 2:16) throughout many of the posts, and that the truth of a matter for a body comes through the corporate ‘we’ – not hotshot virtuosos. I wish I could be in face-to-face fellowship with many of you. I miss it so much, but I’ll bear it until I am planted somewhere.

    Andrew, I love the way you say things so succinctly. Bless you.

    When I read Lee’s article, as I said, something was rotten in the state of Denmark – so to speak. Technically, I agreed with much and in another setting this would be sound advice . . . to a point. Then Marie got to the heart of it and ValleyAnt to the mind of it. But let me add my penny’s worth.

    I remember Art Katz saying that he would never let anyone lay hands on him unless he knew them, was in relationship with them and they were tested and accredited by the Holy Spirit (however that may happen within a body or a meeting). What he would receive from them would be an impartation of who and what they were (scary to think, and sobering!). I’ve been in meetings where people have laid hands on me without my permission, have been barged into whilst receiving prayer, have had people grin in glee over me when they have seen who they were praying for and have generally felt unsafe when certain people laid hands on me. It has taken me a long time to realise I was receiving what they had. It perpetuated some ingrained sins in me and left the door open for bouts of depression and oppression.

    In short, to steal some words from Art, the laying on of hands has become a “cheapy” – almost an ecclesiastical flourish to assure ourselves we are apostolic rather than apostate. Why? Because we do not go from house to house, we do not know each other as we ought. Sunday is not a continuation of our weekly life – it has become a show that must not be spoilt by ‘harsh prophets’. We must not allow visitors to run away because we are weird. We are at odds with the world! We are always going to be weird! Some will run from the presence of God and others will run toward it. But when God left the meeting someone just turned up the amplifier. There is none deader than those who purported to have life at the first. Valley Ant is spot on about some Charismatic churches in that situation. Let us pray that the Lord will be gracious to us and open our eyes if we are in that same situation.

    I thought the article jokey and flippant, totally at odds with the seriousness of the matter. And at its core: the presupposition that church is just the Sunday service and nothing must get in the way of the performance. I found it harsh and dismissive, like pouring cold water on a flame that burns for God. The invention of pop language like this is just a bat to hit people over the head with like ‘spiritual policemen’ and ‘superspiritual’ and ‘let’s not get heavy about this’.

    Our Lord is gentle but He is a consuming fire. Let us worship God with fear and awe and reverence.

    Liz448: I think it okay to shake for one reason only: the fear of God. The way you describe your gift is self-conscious. It draws attention to yourself. Watch your heart with all diligence. This ‘knowledge’ may puff you up. If you are a battleaxe for God, it is between Him and you. Keep the Deeps deep. Leave yourself alone. Consider ValleyAnt’s advice.

    I will however make some comment on Nicea. I have a great respect for history and our Early Church Fathers who are now in the Cloud of Witnesses above us, and without us they will not be made perfect. Athanasius is a man worthy of respect and honour. Very often in a single generation the purposes of God hang by a single crimson thread. Athanasius was that thread. By 325 AD the Arianism controversy was threatening to ovewhelm the church and make Jesus ‘less’ divine than the Father. The situation was serious. Without Athanasius we do not get the the Creed of Nicea and the Athanasian Creed – both of which enshrine and recognise the divinity of Jesus. If the Church is to be the Ground and Pillar of Truth, this great doctrine can never be lost and must be fought for tooth and nail – something that Athanasius did. I know truth is more than a creed, but it is never less that its written/verbal expression.

    Love to All

  45. One of the odd things is that we have made “ministry” something we do to “display” our own “spiritual wonderfulness”….rather than to genuinely help others. Real ministry doesn’t happen with an audience or need one. When it is done out of the limelight it tends to be a little more controlled and “real”.

    As for tongues, in the last few years I have been praying with a small group of people. We pray in tongues a LOT and often very loudly. We are talking to God, not to anyone else however, and shouting is common as is scripture reading, spontaneous singing, some singing in tongues, lying on the floor, weeping, foot stomping, walking……etc. But it is a prayer meeting and most of us have our eyes closed….The behaviour would seem odd to outsiders, but it is a time of real comfort and encouragement and warfare. It is mostly noisy, but we have times when it is quite quiet and people are very broken. Tongues is very important for me at least in hearing God’s voice, and in kind of idling my motor so to speak, when I DO lay hands on someone to pray for them. I would not likely pray that way for an unbeliever, however.

    We really DO need the genuine gifts of the Spirit, and unfortunately the counterfeits rare causing us to pull away from what might be the genuine article. We must earnestly desire spiritual gifts, even in this day of charismatic crazies. We need every tool we can get in this dark time….along with a LOT of discernment.

    This article seemed written for a rather shallow level charismania….most of us have seen some or all of this kind of stuff…..but I continue to long for the real thing

  46. ValleyAnt Jun 27th 2014

    Michael, well said: “As far as the bar is concerned the level is set in the NT scriptures. God is not raising [the bar] ‘Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.'” Ps. 119:89 says, “Forever, oh Lord, Your Word is settled in Heaven.” Even satan knows what the bar or standard is; our need to have ‘flesh first, God second’ has changed all the rules. But someday, God’s Word will be settled here on earth too.

    Charles, lol.

    Rick, there are many ‘Simon the Sorcerers’ in the churches, and they fit perfectly among the prophetic and charismatic sheep due to their need for the supernatural. It’s a mess.

    Thanks, Cassie.

    Darren, I agree with you. (And to Liz, “Keep your heart with ALL diligence, for from out of it are the issues of life.”) And yes, only to churches whose premise is on being ‘alive’ (‘relevant’, we call it today) can Jesus say, “You have a name that you are alive.” And only the dead who say they are alive are more dead than the dead; or only Judas Iscariot (Jesus ‘friend’) was worse than the Pharisees (Jesus’ apparent adversaries). The Evangelicals may often seem dry and empty of ‘the Spirit’, but it’s those who believe they own the Spirit who are really dead and who are first to (and already have) betray and abandon Jesus.

    Keith, whatever you believe, find the real God and make peace with Him before you leave this planet. We know that no matter ever really disappears but continues to exist; in the same way, everyone who dies continues to exist.

    The burden from the Lord I’ve been since at least ’03 most aware of is that for leaders who are ‘turned aside like a deceitful bow’ (who claim to walk with and minister for God but live for themselves at the deepest level of motive and intention where God alone sees perfectly). Jeremiah (God) said several times, “From the least of them to the greatest of them, everyone is given to covetousness; and from the prophet to the priest, everyone deals falsely. They have healed the wound of My people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ when there is no peace” (6:13-14, 8:10-11). Ezekiel (God) agreed: “[The prophets’ have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace’, and there was no peace” (13:10). When I was in Nashville, TN, I heard that Cindy Jacobs, on her visit there, had told about God’s angel(s) who had jurisdiction over that city and told of all the blessings waiting to be released. When I heard this, I said, “IS THAT SO?” Having been to well over forty different cities in the United States and experiencing a very special spiritual darkness in Nashville alone (it is the city in which I experienced the greatest spiritual darkness), I wondered why these prophetic ministers always tell people ‘good news’ when bad news is all around them. “Peace, peace” when there is no peace. Along with those galloping clowns who call themselves prophets and leaders, Grady, by God’s Grace, will begin to say, “Repent, repent” rather than “Peace, peace” before it is all over. God help us all.

  47. Well all i can say is. Praise God for the folk that introduced me to a revival meeting in ’65, I praise the Lord that 60 years ago all these excesses and ungodly things mentioned by Grady were recognized and kept out of our fellowship. I was mercifully informed of them, and many more alike – in the first few weeks of my conversion .from a from a cold, lifeless “Christianity” to the Power and Spirit of Almighty God.
    I believeThe Word has all the warning and correction we need to pin point and avoid all similar farcical nonsense.

    I have just for the first time in my life read the “Athanasian Creed ”
    We used to regularly “rattle off” something similar in a cold building with its stained glass, and worse still it’s stained Gospel, it meant nothing to us. Sad many are still enslaved in the like however:
    Ezekiel 34 indites these shepherds which fail to feed the flock and ends with God’s promise to lead His people out!.
    Pr Michael

  48. ValleyAnt Jun 27th 2014

    Michael, Ezekiel and Jeremiah say a lot about false prophets and shepherds (pastors/ministers we would call them).

    I want to add that there is a ministry that has been missing for a very long time but that is on the Lord’s heart, and it is the restoration of fallen leaders. There are leaders who will never turn or return; but there are some who will turn or return. Some of these leaders aren’t even Christian (some are in the political arena, some presidents, kings, etc.), and some are fallen pastors, ministers, prophets, etc. God has a heart for leaders (or ‘fathers in the faith’), but leaders rarely ever seem to change their ways when they are fallen or ‘turned aside’. Thankfully, God knows all the reasons leaders fall, and there is always Grace for those who will repent. I believe there will be a very large ministry to all fields and arenas in these last days (from the workplace to the political to everything between and beyond) and that one of those fields will be the field of fallen leaders (Christians and non) which will be ripe for harvest. These verses come to mind concerning that field:

    1. “‘If you will return, oh Israel,’ says the Lord,
    ‘Return to Me'” (Jer. 4:1).

    2. “‘Now, therefore,’ says the Lord, ‘turn to Me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.’ So rend your heart, and not your garments; return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness; and He relents from doing harm” (Joel 2:12-13).


  49. Darren .. Wrote .. Our Lord is gentle but He is a consuming fire. Let us worship God with fear and awe and reverence .. I thought the arrival of Jesus and the New Covenant did away with a God of Wrath and Fear ? Make up your mind !

  50. annikins Jun 27th 2014

    Keith , there is a holy fear of God which is the same as reverence for God.
    Also, have you not read Revelation which is all about wrath.

  51. Andrew Jun 27th 2014


    Read the Book of Revelation, my friend.

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom

  52. One other interesting point. In the early days after my salvation in ’74, there was no such thing as a ministry team. If we felt we needed to respond to a message, we might go forward to the alter and pray on our knees for some time and then the prayer room was opened after service as well, and people filed in to do more business with God. It was, generally speaking, individuals going forward, and meeting with God themselves. If it was a salvation altar call then people would go to talk and pray with new believers….the whole ministry team emphasis can put our eyes on people, and not on the true and only mediator. It is not always a bad thing, but it certainly can be…..

  53. One other interesting point. In the early days after my salvation in ’74, there was no such thing as a ministry team. If we felt we needed to respond to a message, we might go forward to the alter and pray on our knees for some time and then the prayer room was opened after service as well, and people filed in to do more business with God. It was, generally speaking, individuals going forward, and meeting with God themselves. If it was a salvation altar call then people would go to talk and pray with new believers….the whole ministry team emphasis can put our eyes on people, and not on the true and only mediator. It is not always a bad thing, but it certainly can be…..

  54. His Truth is marching on Jun 27th 2014

    The irony is that only those who fear Him are safe from His wrath which is coming upon those who don’t fear Him. When we receive His Son and remain in Him we are sheltered from His wrath, but those outside Him are not sheltered. Jesus Christ is the Rock in whom a place has been cleft for us so that we are not consumed when the full weight of His Glory passes by………….for our God is a consuming fire and the full weight of His Glory is being revealed from heaven………hence it is the book of Revelation….of Jesus Christ.

  55. The book of the Revelation needs to be read in context and rightly divided (2 Tim 2:15)

    Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

    Write the things which thou hast seen “Past tense”

    and the things which are “Present tense”

    and the things which shall be hereafter “Future tense”

    John begins his writing with the things that he “hast seen” (Chapt 1) He goes on to write about the things “that are” (Chapt 2&3) the 7 Church’s, the Church age that we are still in today. Then John goes on to write about the things which shall be “hereafter” that is, after the Church age (chapts 4 and onwards) Chapts 4&5 are clearly dealing with the Church in heaven and chapt 6 begins with the opening of the first seal which is the beginning of the tribulation. So we can clearly see from the scriptures that the Church will not be here in the time of the tribulation (Daniel’s 70th week)

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (JEWS) and upon thy holy city (JERUSALEM/ISRAEL) to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Again it is about RIGHTLY DIVIDING, we can clearly see in the above scripture that the 70th week of Daniel is to the JEWS/ISRAEL.

    “and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity” (The purpose of the tribulation)

    We the “BELIEVERS” in the Church today have had our sins dealt with, removed from us to be remembered no more.

    1 Thess 5:9 For God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME.



  56. Andrew Jun 27th 2014

    Ken – the “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” for those seeking true salvation. That is why Jesus said the Holy Spirit comes to convict of “sin, righteousness and judgment.” Take away these things and people will not get truly and deeply “saved”. Nor will they understand true “grace”. You cannot deeply appreciate forgiveness if you have not been convicted of the things that need forgiving!!

    Bless you!

    Andrew Strom.

  57. Darren Sargent Jun 27th 2014

    Keith, I believe the reference to worshipping God as He is a consuming fire is to be found in Hebrews. It would be very worthwhile for you to look up every reference to fire in both the Testament of Promise(Old) and the Testament of Fulfilment(New). I think you will find that it is impossible to separate the Lord from His fire and His nature. My mind is fully persuaded. Get yourself acquainted with the paradoxes of the faith and embrace the Testament of Promise as the Word of God. Salvation is first for the Jew. Look at how John responded to his vision of the Lord in Revelation, how Isaiah saw the Lord and reacted, how Daniel was struck. Does it not strike you that the Lord is compassionate and gentle as well dead set against sin. Zeal!

    Keith, if you met the Lord in your room right now, face-to-face, you wouldn’t be standing.

    Come Lord! Winnow my heart with fire.

  58. Perhaps they need to hear that their ministries are not gentle enough. An intervention with manners.

    Gentleness and fun is far more effective for God’s Kingdom than their current ministries.

  59. ValleyAnt Jun 29th 2014

    After hearing some ‘IHOPers’ use some of the same language I used in my last post, I want to clarify something I wrote in it; I wrote:

    “I believe there will be a very large ministry to all fields and arenas in these last days (from the workplace to the political to everything between and beyond) and that one of those fields will be the field of fallen leaders (Christians and non) which will be ripe for harvest.”

    The political arena? Uh-oh; sounds like that ‘seven mountains’ teaching. I wrote about God going after people in leadership– both in the churches and outside of them. I now realize this sounds like some of the off-the-mark teachings of people like the IHOP, KCF, Bethel Church crowd. I was just telling a friend yesterday that I didn’t want to use the word ‘mantle’ as it’d been so defiled by super-charismatics. Undefiled words and terms are becoming harder and harder to find.

    My meaning in my last post is captured well in what Jesus said to the apostles (that they would be taken before rulers/leaders– presidents, kings, etc., often people ‘far out of reach’ of Christianity among the masses– and that they’d be given the right words to [preach] to them at that time) and what we see clearly fulfilled in some parts of Paul’s life (taken before ‘the high-ups’, he preached to rulers such as Governor-Procurator Antonius Felix, Governor-Procurator Porcius Festus, King Herod Agrippa II, and Sergius Paulus, etc. (probably preached to Caesar Nero too who had to judge his case, but it’s not recorded)). I look forward to seeing this particular type of ministry as leaders (presidents, congressmen, the very wealthy, etc.) are either unreachable due to their position or are cast away and rejected if they are fallen Christian leaders.

  60. His Truth is marching on Jun 29th 2014

    A reminder that our job is to be witnesses, and that it is the Lord alone who can convert souls. And as witnesses (martyrs) we can expect persecution, witnessing before rulers is not likely to get us off the hook, more like the opposite.

    Most of “fallen leaders” just bounce right back up and get back into the saddle far too quickly and continue on in error, I don’t see them being cast away at all these days. But they need to be for a while for their good, in the wisdom of God not the wisdom of man.

    If we look to the bible for our pattern we see that the Lord sends prophets before erring leaders to rebuke them and witness to the truth, He doesn’t generally deal so gently with those who are responsible for leading HIS flock astray. And not many repent, they have far too much to lose in doing so………their living, their reputation, status, their identity, self esteem, etc……..in other words……..their idols.

  61. DonaldN Jun 29th 2014

    I see a definite similarity with this discussion and the previous one. The previous being the Christian’s influence on political leadership. This one being the Christian leadership itself. I believe one thing we all need to be more aware of is the influence of the devil. Many churches lately are ignoring anything that would be considered demonic influence, therefore they have an attitude of “anything goes, as long as you claim it is of God”. Discernment is seriously lacking in many of today’s Christian gatherings. The god of this world has blinded the eyes of multitudes, not just in the world, but in the church also.

  62. DonaldN Jun 29th 2014

    Along with discernment, the next question has not yet been asked. How far do we go to reject what we determine to be not of God? Do we speak out against it? What good does that do in a church that embraces it? Do we leave that chruch? Where do we go? So what is a solution to the complaints we all are sharing?

  63. ValleyAnt Jun 29th 2014

    His Truth, now that I think of it, I don’t recall many places in the Bible where God ‘reached out’ to fallen leaders (and you’re right: fallen leaders aren’t likely to be ‘cast away’ but rather welcomed when they eagerly hop back in the saddle). Obviously, it’s important to distinguish my desires from God’s desires. And yes, as we see with Jesus before rulers as well as the apostles and Paul (and as Jesus said), ‘ministry to rulers’ will often be because one was dragged before them. (It definitely isn’t glamorous.) As you said, “Not many repent.” The last time I recall praying for leaders (ministers) myself was in early ’07 after I witnessed a totally apostate church leadership who put me out their church because I exposed several criminals in their church (they were afraid of a church split). As I grieved and prayed for them, the Lord told me to stop praying for them. When I asked for Scripture to verify this was Him saying this, He gave me 1Jn. 5:16-17 and especially 1Sam. 16 where He told Samuel to stop grieving for King Saul but to go find the ruler who would do God’s will. His clear implication was that this church leadership (pastor and wife mostly) was fallen and would not repent.

    Donald, as regards responding to what isn’t of God, I like what Paul says here: “Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the heart” (1Cor. 4:5). I think it’s wise to reject only as much as God has shown us and not more or less– to not judge (make a final assessment) a thing until the Lord judges it to us. I think speaking out against in within a church that embraces it is counterproductive (eyes really are blind). As for where we go, I believe it’s a much slower process that I’d hoped, a process of the Lord leading each person to genuine fellowship which is still being defined– a body of believers still finding out ‘how it’s done’ and so still in the process themselves of being built.

  64. His Truth is marching on Jun 30th 2014

    May the Lord bless you dear ValleyAnt……there is always a need to divide between soul and spirit…..our mind and feelings/empathies etc are in danger of leading us astray, they are enmity with God….so we need to always be guided by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit…..and the carrying of our cross of course is necessary in crucifying our natural/carnal feelings and thoughts, it goes hand in hand with the renewing of our mind……..God’s thoughts and ways are not like ours, so we must believe Him above ourselves. I used to think the discipline that Paul spoke about, regarding handing someone over to Satan for a time was harsh, but now it makes perfect sense to me. I understand what you mean about the Lord telling you to stop praying for someone…that also happened to me once and I realized in hindsight how I was praying just from my ‘susceptible’ emotions and not Gods will and the true nature of the situation…but it taught me that it is a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the Living God and it is true that He does not strive with a person forever.

    Donald N……may I humbly encourage you to take those very good questions and bring them to the Lord, ask seek and knock, and He will guide you. Maybe it will help also to say, that Jesus did not say to seek out a church to attend, He said to take up our cross daily and follow Him……..may the Lord bless you in your walk with Him.